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Topic: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-22 04:40:43 and read 16932 times.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/b...ns-thomson-airways-may-fly-to.html

I knew it !

And so it begins.

I remember LAS being poo-poo'd by London based legacies for years and now look.

I wonder what's on the cards for the 787 and A350 legacy wise that will raise eyebrows.

At least a few surprises I hope.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: flyingthe757
Posted 2013-06-22 04:55:26 and read 16885 times.

Non stop UK - Hawaii!!! That's one hell of a long flight!

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: QANTAS747-438
Posted 2013-06-22 07:27:40 and read 16422 times.

No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-22 07:33:33 and read 16386 times.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Both eventualities foreseen by a few on here including I.

  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-06-22 07:39:19 and read 16323 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 3):
They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Even more said AA would never buy Airbus again.   

I'd like to see what they're proposing before I cheer it, but it's a start!   

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-06-22 07:51:48 and read 16235 times.

Thomson have often stated that routes as far as HNL and also DPS will be looked at once the 787's are in the fleet. So nothing really new here.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: hotplane
Posted 2013-06-22 08:40:49 and read 15989 times.

Funny, the pilot doing MAH-LGW 787 flt yesterday said it could do London-Hawaii nonstop if required.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: APYu
Posted 2013-06-22 08:50:54 and read 15924 times.

It won't happen. It's just a headline dropped into a conversation during a press day.

TUI will never get the cheap hotel rates they'd need in the islands to make it profitable. They'd be competing against the Japanese tourists who pay far more than Brian and Debbie from Essex.

[Edited 2013-06-22 08:52:52]

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 777STL
Posted 2013-06-22 08:56:02 and read 15872 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 3):
They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Both eventualities foreseen by a few on here including I.

You're so smart. No one can get anything past you!

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2013-06-22 09:09:12 and read 15757 times.

There was recent talk on here regarding UK-HNL and I still definitely think there is a market for this. I reckon a couple of flights a week.

I got back from there not long ago and as much as enjoyed stopping off on west coast a direct flight is definitely something me and the wife would consider.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: lax777lr
Posted 2013-06-22 09:24:14 and read 15665 times.

Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this. Factor in the additional crew requirements then divide by Mr. and Mrs. Essex's holiday budget, and you probably have a nice money-losing operation.

Anyone care to crunch some speculative numbers?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-06-22 09:28:23 and read 15629 times.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

Its a charter, a few times a week in peak season. That can be done.

The one that would have a hell of a challenge would be a scheduled service flight if someone like HA wanted to try it.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: ukoverlander
Posted 2013-06-22 09:35:19 and read 15569 times.

I haven't lived in the UK for some time but Thomson as I recall is a charter operator so if they can fill a plane load of package holiday makers for Hawaii then theoretically it is doable. The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

The jet lag on that route would be brutal and although the Hawaiian Islands are nice, I'm sorry but they really don't offer anything that compelling that those other destinations don't already offer. Perhaps they are thinking about offering it as a stop over destination on charter flights that would continue on to Australia and New Zealand? In great circle terms Hawai'i probably makes pretty good sense for a charter airline wishing to sell budget trips down under with a novelty stop over destination. Otherwise I'd guess the market would be pretty thin.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: AirbusGeek
Posted 2013-06-22 09:45:31 and read 15518 times.

How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: ukoverlander
Posted 2013-06-22 09:54:20 and read 15460 times.

Great Circle mapper suggests it's 6311 nautical miles from Gatwick to Honolulu. If I was to make a guess I'd say it's going to be about a 14.5 hour flight.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: qf002
Posted 2013-06-22 10:13:59 and read 15370 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 9):
There was recent talk on here regarding UK-HNL and I still definitely think there is a market for this. I reckon a couple of flights a week.

That thread, for anybody who might be interested: UK To HNL, Is There A Market? (by readytotaxi Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

And I totally agree that there is a market there worth exploring. The 787 is exactly the sort of aircraft that makes these sorts of things a possibility (even with high fuel prices).

Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

It's not actually a particularly long route in the global scale of things, and well within reach of the 788, 77W/77L, A345 and A388 (all of which have more range than the 747-400ER).

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: by738
Posted 2013-06-22 10:21:01 and read 15318 times.

Couldn't they do a double drop ie LAS or SAN and have crew swap

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: APYu
Posted 2013-06-22 10:23:54 and read 15303 times.

Adding a stop would make that even less attractive to TUI travels core markets of families with kids and senior couples.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-06-22 10:36:06 and read 15214 times.

Quoting APYu (Reply 7):
They'd be competing against the Japanese tourists who pay far more than Brian and Debbie from Essex.

Those tourists don't usually go for the cheap lodging. Have you ever been to Hawaii? There is an abundance of inexpensive lodging outside of the fancy hotels. That is the least of their problems. Being from Portugal myself and having spent plenty of Summers in Algarve I'm very familiar with what Brian and Debbie from Essex are looking for and it's not the same type of accomodation that Japanese tourists go for   And by the way, the Chinese tourists spend even more than the Japanese tourists.

Quoting lax777lr (Reply 10):
Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this.

Who says it has to be non-stop? They are a tour operator, a refueling stop is not beyond them. It happens all the time on charter flights to the Caribbean already.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: APYu
Posted 2013-06-22 10:50:24 and read 14984 times.

Yes I've been to Hawaii thanks. TUI would be and do compete at hotels popular with japanese and other eastern tourists. They have just pulled MLE as a result of that competition sadly.

Most TUI long haul hotels are 4 star. The short and mid haul programmes cater for a wider taste and have more of the cheaper lodging to which you refer.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: anrec80
Posted 2013-06-22 10:51:33 and read 14982 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 16):
Couldn't they do a double drop ie LAS or SAN and have crew swap

In order for that to be a $$-making operation, in addition to selling to Brian and Debbie from Essex, they will need to be able to sell tickets to Joe and Mary from rural Nevada onto what will be a US domestic flight. I don't think they'll get the cabotage rights - I don't think there are domestic routes in the US flown by foreign carriers they can sell tickets on. E.g. QF has LAX-JFK run, but one can't buy ticket on that segment alone, without continuing on some other QF flight. Would be nice though.  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: frmrCapCadet
Posted 2013-06-22 11:00:31 and read 14827 times.

Just because Hawaii is not the most logical place for Europeans to visit sub-tropical does not mean that Europeans will never want to visit Hawaii. Limited charter service, even a scheduled a couple times a week may very well be possible. And there likely are business travelers from time to time.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-06-22 11:05:06 and read 14801 times.

I wonder if Brian/ Debbie and Joe/ Mary know that their vacation plans are being discussed on Anet?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: dazbo5
Posted 2013-06-22 11:26:11 and read 14385 times.

Being 'Brian' and regularly traveling with Thomson Airways (12 weeks tomorrow I'm off to MLE for the third time with them, sadly from LGW as they've pulled MAN aleady), I say bring it on! Hawaii has been banded around since they ordered the 787-8's so it's nothing new. Whether it'll become a reality remains to be seen but it'll only be from LGW, sadly. I can see MRU and the revival of PVR being popular though as both are great destinations. It's worth a try so if they think the market is big enough, they can only give it a go and see how it goes. I'd certainly give it a try if the price is right.

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: by738
Posted 2013-06-22 11:34:38 and read 14275 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
It happens all the time on charter flights to the Caribbean already

I think most from Europe go non-stop

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: ukoverlander
Posted 2013-06-22 11:50:23 and read 14849 times.

Why can't you people just leave us alone and mind your own business.

Regards

Brian and Debbie

ps : we have no interest in going to Hawaii - we're going clubbing in Ibiza

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Bralo20
Posted 2013-06-22 12:00:53 and read 14575 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 20):
they will need to be able to sell tickets to Joe and Mary from rural Nevada onto what will be a US domestic flight. I don't think they'll get the cabotage rights - I don't think there are domestic routes in the US flown by foreign carriers they can sell tickets on

This will likely change in the next couple of years, it's part of the big free-trade negotiations that the EU will commence next month. When succeeded EU airlines will be able to transport passengers and sell tickets on domestic flights in the US after the plane made landfall.

It could take a couple of years but this will happen someday  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2013-06-22 13:07:12 and read 14001 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 14):
Great Circle mapper suggests it's 6311 nautical miles from Gatwick to Honolulu. If I was to make a guess I'd say it's going to be about a 14.5 hour flight.

There are other aircraft that can easily fly this mission. Ala 772LR, albeit not immediately available to TUI. Now they have an aircraft that can do it doesn't mean they should.

I think the economics of this mean TUI will struggle with Honolulu. They major on short haul to brand-operated hotels (I'm doing it next week). Majorca is easy, Honolulu not so.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-22 13:20:28 and read 13945 times.

Quoting lax777lr (Reply 10):
Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this.

For comparison, A 763 with 260 seats , as Thomson runs them, will burn 60t of fuel on a 12.5hr sector. A 788 with 288 seats will burn 62t on a 13hr 45min sector which is about what LGW-HNL would be.

In my view LGW -HNL is very possible. May be they can also run from FRA and get a whole lot of the Germans that flood the Caribbean.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-06-22 14:12:36 and read 13121 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
I haven't lived in the UK for some time but Thomson as I recall is a charter operator so if they can fill a plane load of package holiday makers for Hawaii then theoretically it is doable. The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

I Think TUI would struggle to sell enough holidays to make Hawaii viable. They operate in a very competitive environment, not only against other package holiday companies, but also with different destinations competing against each other. For the distance there's quite a few other destinations with lower cost economies available. Many packages are sold all inclusive so the people going on them tend to just stay in the hotel grounds, thus the main criteria are temperature, hours of sun and cost.
The Carribbean offers high temperatures and sun, local costs however aren't cheap, so whilst BA and VS fly a lot of passengers, TUI etc with their more budget conscious customers do far less, and fly to the likes of Cancun instead.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: max999
Posted 2013-06-22 15:08:04 and read 12451 times.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

The question of whether to start a flight is not about whether there's a market for it. There will always be people who want to fly from point A to point B...especially popular destinations like UK and Hawaii.

The real question is whether the flight will be profitable. Long haul flights are expensive to operate...The aircraft for long haul flights literally become flying tankers, they're burning fuel just to carry fuel. You need to charge a high ticket premium to cover those extra fuel costs.

Hawaii is a popular tourist destination, but not a business destination...few people are paying full fare business / first class tickets so the yields are lower. Probably not high enough to cover the costs of long haul flights. This is why people are skeptical that UK - Hawaii is going to work.

Whether the 787 can have low enough fuel costs to make this flight profitable remains to be seen. Thomson is probably trying to figure this out so that's why they haven't committed to Hawaii.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: mffoda
Posted 2013-06-22 15:08:17 and read 12505 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

I've been to Mauritius, and I live on the US east coast. People travel to experience new things, the distance is why they Fly in the first place. I could paddle to the Caribbean from where I live, but that does not mean I wouldn't love a nice Hawaiian holiday... I sure I'm not alone here.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-06-22 15:13:31 and read 12435 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 31):
I sure I'm not alone here.

You are not!   

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-06-22 15:24:03 and read 12264 times.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

No I didn't say that. I guess the lack of market is for F/C classes on that route. But for charters it's doable.

Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

Someone I know went to HNL from ZRH with a night stop at LAX. Flights for both legs were about 12 and 5 hours respectively. Non-stop out of the UK it might be around 15 or less. Still a long flight if you ask me.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-06-22 15:43:39 and read 12110 times.

Quoting APYu (Reply 19):
Yes I've been to Hawaii thanks. TUI would be and do compete at hotels popular with japanese and other eastern tourists. They have just pulled MLE as a result of that competition sadly.

The Maldives are a completely different situation though. Hotel rooms are limited and as a visitor you don't really have any option but to stay at one of the resorts because there's nowhere else to stay. Hawaii has a huge variety of hotels and condo resorts that go largely unfilled outside the US vacation season.

Quoting by738 (Reply 24):
I think most from Europe go non-stop

Today most charter companies have upgraded to 767s/A330's thanks to the growth of this market but until very recently they were flying 753's to Orlando and the Caribbean with a stop in Gander.

Personally I think Europe-Hawaii is only a matter of when not if. Hawaii is a place like no other and it's not like Europeans aren't used to travel far away for a vacation. They certainly don't lack the time off  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: B747400ERF
Posted 2013-06-22 15:49:34 and read 12033 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 14):
Great Circle mapper suggests it's 6311 nautical miles from Gatwick to Honolulu. If I was to make a guess I'd say it's going to be about a 14.5 hour flight.

I don't get why people on here always use great circle mapper. Do you not realize no commercial aircraft flies direct?

Not only will a realistic flight plan be closer to 1000 miles, but you are fighting some of the strongest high altitude winds on the planet the entire way.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: planesntrains
Posted 2013-06-22 16:04:38 and read 11818 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

Many people fly further to experience something different. At the same time, many people would prefer to travel closer to save on time and money.

We'll see if it works for the former assuming this route ever starts.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
Those tourists don't usually go for the cheap lodging. Have you ever been to Hawaii? There is an abundance of inexpensive lodging outside of the fancy hotels. That is the least of their problems. Being from Portugal myself and having spent plenty of Summers in Algarve I'm very familiar with what Brian and Debbie from Essex are looking for and it's not the same type of accomodation that Japanese tourists go for And by the way, the Chinese tourists spend even more than the Japanese tourists.

When I visit TripAdvisor.com to read hotel reviews before traveling, I'm always amazed at the number of reviews by people from Germany, England, Australia, etc. I'm also struck by how many are happy/thrilled with their accommodations at places like Best Western, Holiday Inn, etc. - I'd assume that on a vacation like this they'd prefer something more "special", but clearly there is a market for a long-haul, budget-minded traveler.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 22):
I wonder if Brian/ Debbie and Joe/ Mary know that their vacation plans are being discussed on Anet?

LOL

-Dave

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-22 16:26:43 and read 11618 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 28):
For comparison, A 763 with 260 seats , as Thomson runs them, will burn 60t of fuel on a 12.5hr sector. A 788 with 288 seats will burn 62t on a 13hr 45min sector which is about what LGW-HNL would be.

10% further with 10% more people for similar fuel is not too shabby. I thought it would be a touch better than that though.

If TUI runs enough of these I wonder if it will make HA think twice about waiting around until 2018 for their A350-800s.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: SYDAIRPORTS
Posted 2013-06-22 17:38:35 and read 11088 times.

Wouldn't PER be longer ? Thomson has flown to PER in the past with multiple stops.

We were going to fly Thomson to UK from PER 4 or 5 years ago I think it was for AUD$199, but could get to PER from BNE, SYD or MEL under $600 as it was around Christmas.

Also another interesting way to get from Australian east coast to UK, via HNL, presuming Thomson could get traffic rights USA/Australia.

Maybe for charters or scheduled charters ?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: mffoda
Posted 2013-06-22 18:09:03 and read 10850 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

I've been to Mauritius, and I live on the US east coast. People travel to experience new things, the distance is why they Fly in the first place. I could paddle to the Caribbean from where I live, but that does not mean I wouldn't love a nice Hawaiian holiday... I sure I'm not alone here.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-06-22 18:15:59 and read 10840 times.

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 1):
Non stop UK - Hawaii!!! That's one hell of a long flight!
Quoting lax777lr (Reply 10):
Again, doubtful. Even with the 787's big improvement in efficiency and ultimately operating costs, this bird still needs to burn a lot of fuel to carry enough fuel for an ULH mission like this.

I wouldn't consider LGW-HNL as ULH. It's roughly 1,000 nm shorter than routes like DXB-LAX.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-22 20:08:38 and read 10061 times.

I expected Europe to HNL flights, but this could be far sooner than I expected.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Its a charter, a few times a week in peak season. That can be done.

   That is the beauty of charter... fly the number of *weekly* flights that can be filled at good yield. If the market is 2X/week... fly that. If 3X or 4X, fly that. We're not discussing daily flights. Per the prior thread (qf002 supplied in reply 15 noted below, you have in post #3 that there were 125 pax/day UK to Hawaii. I would expect a non-stop from LGW first on perhaps a 2X weekly basis. Then I would expect another UK city to be added (1X or 2X week). But as you note, only in peak season.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
That thread, for anybody who might be interested: UK To HNL, Is There A Market? (by readytotaxi Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Thank you. I appreciate you providing the link.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

It's not actually a particularly long route in the global scale of things, and well within reach of the 788, 77W/77L, A345 and A388 (all of which have more range than the 747-400ER).

The 744ER would be the last plane I would expect on the route. The frequency would be too low and CASM too high. I love the queen of the skies, but as qf002 notes, there are many more aircraft that can fly the route and the 789 and A359 will join that list shortly.

Quoting APYu (Reply 17):

Adding a stop would make that even less attractive to TUI travels core markets of families with kids and senior couples.

   Get them in the seats and turn on the IFE and hope the kids nap. I haven't braved long haul with my kids, but I bet they would love it. The flight would be just as much an adventure as the destination. But transferring flights... ugh. I'm having to do that with my kids next week and it is the one part of the trip I worry about as with kids, they add a whole new dimension with connections...

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 28):
For comparison, A 763 with 260 seats , as Thomson runs them, will burn 60t of fuel on a 12.5hr sector. A 788 with 288 seats will burn 62t on a 13hr 45min sector which is about what LGW-HNL would be.

In my view LGW -HNL is very possible. May be they can also run from FRA and get a whole lot of the Germans that flood the Caribbean.

Thank you for the numbers. It is quite possible. I do not expect a daily, but a few direct flights could double the UK-Hawaii market easily.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-06-22 21:46:22 and read 9448 times.

I think this would be a major hit and this is one of the many missions this Aircraft will excel at.


The factor that people are ignoring here is the allure of Hawaii, those islands have more than a little magic
associated with them.


Bet on it.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-22 22:43:58 and read 9222 times.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

The last discussion on this topic was HA ordering 777s just to fly to Europe.

Hawaiian 777 Order/lease Is Coming Soon?! (by jdflyvc10 May 22 2013 in Civil Aviation)


Has anyone here actually read the source article....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...h-routes-as-787-extends-reach.html

“Hawaii, South Africa -- it can even get to Perth if you fly in the right way with the right number of people,” Jeremy Ellis, U.K. and Ireland marketing director for Thomson parent TUI Travel Plc (TT/), said in an interview on its first 787 flight to Menorca, Spain. “All of these destinations we’re considering.”


Just because it can get there, doesn't mean it will go there.

The big issue with such long flights is the amount of time the aircaft is away from home. If its' 15 hours each way, plus 2hr turn round at either end, thats 36hrs on one round trip - when the aircraft could be used on 1.5 trips to the US or carribbean in that time frame. Its a lot of aircraft lease costs on one service.

Considering the latent demand from the UK to South Africa, and the multi daily services already going there, I see this as the first long haul market to be considered by 787s.

As was discussed ad nausium in the Haiwaii thread, there is so little O&D to Hawaii from the UK. Of course the market would be stimulated by a direct charter service, and the service will fly full, but will it be profitable???

the Actual tiny O&D statistics were provided in the HA thread.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-06-22 23:22:28 and read 8987 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 48):
The big issue with such long flights is the amount of time the aircaft is away from home. If its' 15 hours each way, plus 2hr turn round at either end, thats 36hrs on one round trip

Interesting point, BestWestern. And, added to that, there's the question of crews. Given that this sort of 'holiday' service would be unlikely to justify daily flights, more likely one flight a week? Allowing for flight preparation time, loading and disembarkation etc., seems to me that the likely pattern would be a single crew doing 'out and return,' with a night's sleep in between? With two fifteen-hour flights, plus 'time on ground,' 'time away from home' etc., one 'out-and-return' trip would virtually use up enough hours for the crew concerned to have done something over a normal week's work in only two calendar days?  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-06-22 23:27:40 and read 8966 times.

Well with the 787 I guess most everything is possible. I heard people over here at HND talking about a potential non-stop by NH to South America with the Dreamliner.

I have a friend who worked at HA for a while and he said there was always a sizable amount of people on his US-HNL flights that were from England. I also heard a rumor from someone else that said that some of the people on the SEA-HNL and PHX-HNL flights are connectors from the UK.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 3):
Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

They also said that American legacies would never consolidate and that EK would never co-operate.

Both eventualities foreseen by a few on here including I.

I take everything anyone says here with a grain of salt unless it's from one of the big-timers working in the industry (KarelXWB, Lightsaber, HKCanadaExPat, Stitch, Wilco737, for example, are the people I follow closely on this site in terms of relevance)

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-22 23:48:49 and read 8850 times.

This whole article was what they could do, not what they will do...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
more likely one flight a week

At one a week, the crew costs are huge with two crew sets overnighting in the Hilton HNL for a week....

At two per week, that's an aircraft scheduled from Monday thru Thursday..

If an aircraft goes Tech - the replacement takes the best part of a day to arrive.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
With two fifteen-hour flights, plus 'time on ground,' 'time away from home' etc., one 'out-and-return' trip would virtually use up enough hours for the crew concerned to have done something over a normal week's work in only two calendar days?  

Correct. Add that to the aircraft lease costs for a 36hr round trip to the final holiday price... And don't forget the cost of the US INS electronic clearance scam for a family of four.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
Well with the 787 I guess most everything is possible.

Everything is possible with the 777 - but doesn't mean that it happened...

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
I also heard a rumor from someone else that said that some of the people on the SEA-HNL and PHX-HNL flights are connectors from the UK.

Correct - good connections to HNL to take the tiny amount of passengers currently going from island to island. The stats were in the last thread i linked to above. Most here chose to ignore statistics, and prefer to play fantasy airline routes.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 48):
it can even get to Perth

Does anyone really think Thompson will fly the 787 to Perth..... Of course not. A charter carrier being the only non stop to Australasia from Europe....

So, if in the same sentence the CEO mentions Hawaii - it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Same for Perth.

South Africa could work - huge current demand and perfect usage for off season aircraft. Same cannot be said for HNL. This market has to be stimulate from basically zero.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 2):
No! It can't be!!! Everyone on A.net says that there's no market for UK-HNL!

There is demand for services from the UK to HNL - small, unprofitable demand, that is profitably served by a one stop.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
a potential non-stop by NH to South America with the Dreamliner.

You simply cannot compare a potential high yield alliance hub to alliance hub service to a low yield bucket and spade operation from Gatwick.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: N1120A
Posted 2013-06-22 23:59:57 and read 8794 times.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Quoting AirbusGeek (Reply 13):
How can they?! It would be about a sixteen hour trip! The only aircraft which could possibly do it is the Boeing 747-400ER, right?

It's not actually a particularly long route in the global scale of things, and well within reach of the 788, 77W/77L, A345 and A388 (all of which have more range than the 747-400ER).

Not to mention the 772ER, A346, A343, 744(non-ER) and probably even the 762ER.

Shoot, maybe Iran Air will start it with the 747SP now that Rowhani is around?  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 00:17:11 and read 8651 times.

Let's not under estimate the lure of Hawaii or the attractiveness of an affordable holiday there with a non-stop flight.

Remember you Americans especially on the west coast it is practically on your door step from a 'by air' point of view, to us over here it has always been a far more illusive and exotic destination. Even if it actually isn't.

The place may not be any different from say the volcanic Canary Islands (4 hours from the UK) but it is somewhere new and for the average Brit it is the ultimate glamour beach holiday destination. Combine that with the familiarity of being American hence all the trimmings that comfort loving Brits adore and it's a sure fire winner.

You know what people are like. I could see the place becoming the new 'in and trendy' 'street cred boosting' place to vacation. The crowning glory of anyone who loves to name drop. 'We're off to Hawaii don't you know' Next seen prancing up and down the street adorned in Hawaiian garlands for all to see !

It was Spain and its islands, then it was Florida, then the Caribbean, then Thailand and its islands and so on. People are always looking for somewhere new.

I don't think the legacies these days are in the business anymore of turning their backs on future sources of revenue. Not with their lowering cost bases, cheaper staff and fuel efficient aircraft.

What's to stop BA starting 787 service to HNL from LGW at some point in the future ?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-23 00:42:20 and read 8458 times.

To put this in perspective, what would be the return fuel price per passenger on a Thompson 787 from LGW to HNL assuming a 80% load?

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
'in and trendy' 'street cred boosting' place to vacation.

Hawaii was 'in' about twenty years ago

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
the attractiveness of an affordable holiday

Hawaii is not a cheap destination
15hrs away on a 787 is not a cheap place

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
People are always looking for somewhere new.

And 99.99999% just end up back at the the Sol Torremolinos three star apart hotel after the "how much???" shock of two weeks in Hawaii.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-06-23 00:56:28 and read 8358 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
Let's not under estimate the lure of Hawaii or the attractiveness of an affordable holiday there with a non-stop flight.

Remember you Americans especially on the west coast it is practically on your door step from a 'by air' point of view, to us over here it has always been a far more illusive and exotic destination. Even if it actually isn't.

The place may not be any different from say the volcanic Canary Islands (4 hours from the UK) but it is somewhere new and for the average Brit it is the ultimate glamour beach holiday destination. Combine that with the familiarity of being American hence all the trimmings that comfort loving Brits adore and it's a sure fire winner.

You know what people are like. I could see the place becoming the new 'in and trendy' 'street cred boosting' place to vacation. The crowning glory of anyone who loves to name drop. 'We're off to Hawaii don't you know' Next seen prancing up and down the street adorned in Hawaiian garlands for all to see !

It was Spain and its islands, then it was Florida, then the Caribbean, then Thailand and its islands and so on. People are always looking for somewhere new.

Exactly and well said, people will line up (and pay more) for this 'exoticness'

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 54):

Hawaii was 'in' about twenty years ago

Hawaii always is 'twenty years ago', at least, so what ?!

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 01:39:09 and read 8090 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 54):
Hawaii is not a cheap destination
15hrs away on a 787 is not a cheap place

15hrs big deal ! What's the travel time to Phuket when all is said and done ?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 54):
Hawaii is not a cheap destination
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 54):
To put this in perspective, what would be the return fuel price per passenger on a Thompson 787 from LGW to HNL assuming a 80% load?

I wonder what it was on Concorde to BGI ?

It is this over-eagerness to 'dismiss out of hand' that has cost the legacies 'billions' over the past couple of decades.

Believe me they will thoroughly investigate every new opportunity going forward.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-06-23 01:42:41 and read 7901 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 56):
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 54):
Hawaii is not a cheap destination
15hrs away on a 787 is not a cheap place

15hrs big deal ! What's the travel time to Phuket when all is said and done ?

I'd like to point out that the 787 was built for ULH routes, especially rather thin routes.

And I'd also like to point out QF operates a 744 from SYD to DFW. I know that has connection implications, but it's still a route that's about 15 hours long. I don't get your argument.

A route like this would carry many holiday travelers, not just from UK. .

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-06-23 01:57:13 and read 7765 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 56):
15hrs big deal ! What's the travel time to Phuket when all is said and done ?

The difference is that living costs in Phuket are such that the tour operators can pay for the aircraft fuel and still offer a cheap holiday.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
A route like this would carry many holiday travelers, not just from UK. .

Charter airlines normally don't handle transfer passengers, its strictly O & D

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: N1120A
Posted 2013-06-23 02:04:01 and read 7709 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 53):
Remember you Americans especially on the west coast it is practically on your door step from a 'by air' point of view, to us over here it has always been a far more illusive and exotic destination. Even if it actually isn't.

As a Californian, I still find Hawaii to be a truly special place.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-06-23 02:08:57 and read 7661 times.

I would imagine even 2x weekly as acceptable for 95+% of people on this route. Probably almost everyone is flexible on date and length for the right price.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 02:30:59 and read 7497 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 59):
As a Californian, I still find Hawaii to be a truly special place.

Oh I agree, for someone like me who loves anything do with the mechanics of the planet...I'm in my element

The beaches are a wonderful bonus.

It is a special place.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-23 02:39:12 and read 7436 times.

60 posts for a fantasy one weekly seasonal charter that may or may not happen - wow.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 56):
15hrs big deal ! What's the travel time to Phuket when all is said and done ?

A full 2.5 hours less than to HNL (Eqv - an extra daily rotation to Malaga).

O&D from UK to Phuket -For the first half of 2012, 36k british people visited Phuket on international flights so the market is already there - all on connections.


Quoting 1400mph (Reply 56):
I wonder what it was on Concorde to BGI ?

You will never see the average concorde to BGI passenger on a thompson aircraft.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 56):
It is this over-eagerness to 'dismiss out of hand' that has cost the legacies 'billions' over the past couple of decades.

Perhaps its kept them from going bankrupt

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
And I'd also like to point out QF operates a 744 from SYD to DFW. I know that has connection implications, but it's still a route that's about 15 hours long. I don't get your argument.

Two Alliance hubs
Two major commerce centres
Significant O&D flow

The problem is the low yield nature of a service to hawaii vs the high yield hub connecting service that QF offers.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
A route like this would carry many holiday travelers, not just from UK.

No, a charter service by Thompson would only carry passengers from the UK. Otherwise, its the same, and less flexible than tradtional services via a major hub.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-06-23 02:42:17 and read 7424 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 58):
Charter airlines normally don't handle transfer passengers, its strictly O & D
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 62):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 57):
A route like this would carry many holiday travelers, not just from UK.

No, a charter service by Thompson would only carry passengers from the UK. Otherwise, its the same, and less flexible than tradtional services via a major hub.

Hmm Couldn't someone from other parts of Europe just Ryanair or Easyjet it to East Midlands or Birmingham (is that where they fly out of?)

Then again if it is indeed a charter, shouldn't they have a set day structure which they're flying to ensure the max load factor?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-06-23 02:56:33 and read 7292 times.

Remember that Thomson is part of the TUI group with big tour operations in many European countries. There will be some feed from elsewhere in Europe onto a potential LGW / MAN - HNL service, providing flight timings allow for connections. And with hundreds of high-street shops in the UK alone to market the route through, and a cruise market out of HNL, it all adds up to easily filling a 788 a couple of times a week in my view.
The Hawaii market will grow because one reason some people are put off going from the UK to HNL is the often awful connections on the flight home.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-23 03:13:07 and read 7157 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 63):
There will be some feed from elsewhere in Europe onto a potential LGW / MAN - HNL service

How?
How are any of the other thompson flights in the UK fed?
Are you proposing a feeder operation to a once weekly operation to HNL?

Seriously?

Quoting TC957 (Reply 63):
And with hundreds of high-street shops in the UK alone to market the route through, and a cruise market out of HNL

I keep forgetting how profitable the package holiday business is in the United Kingdom.

Perhaps you didn't read the annual report - Margins are razor thin at TUI group. On turnover of 14bn, profits were 137m last year...

http://ara2012.tuitravelplc.com/site...chments/Financial%20Statements.pdf

Quoting TC957 (Reply 63):
it all adds up to easily filling a 788 a couple of times a week in my view.

Why not daily from GLA, MAN, BHX and Gatwick?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-23 03:21:54 and read 7092 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 62):
Hmm Couldn't someone from other parts of Europe just Ryanair or Easyjet it to East Midlands or Birmingham (is that where they fly out of?)

Wouldn't it be easier to hop on a UA or DL jet liner via the US and not worry about miss-connections.

Self connecting in the UK means two sets of the massive UK air passenger duty tax also.


Quoting PHX787 (Reply 62):
Then again if it is indeed a charter, shouldn't they have a set day structure which they're flying to ensure the max load factor?

Oh, don't worry, the flight will be jam packed. The yield is the question..

[Edited 2013-06-23 03:27:08]

[Edited 2013-06-23 03:28:06]

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-23 03:38:18 and read 6956 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 63):
And with hundreds of high-street shops in the UK alone to market the route through, and a cruise market out of HNL, it all adds up to easily filling a 788 a couple of times a week in my view.

Cant see that happening at all and too many risks involved. It would end up costing them money. I have my doubts that shops in the UK could fill a 788 a few times a week too. If they want to try it then they would need to launch it in the 2014 program and sell it and market it asap so it gives them time to pull it in December if the demand isnt enough before it causes more losses. Recently at a trade event I was chatting to a few managers from TUI and it was quite interesting to hear about the trends in retail high street shops !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-06-23 03:47:32 and read 6879 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
Hmm Couldn't someone from other parts of Europe just Ryanair or Easyjet it to East Midlands or Birmingham (is that where they fly out of?)

Read FR & U's terms & conditions, they clearly state that they are point to point airlines, not even offering through routing on their own services and that anyone flying to make a connection is doing so entirely at their own risk if the 1st flight is delayed/cancelled.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 59):
Remember that Thomson is part of the TUI group with big tour operations in many European countries. There will be some feed from elsewhere in Europe onto a potential LGW / MAN - HNL service, providing flight timings allow for connections.

TUI fly point to point from Northern Europe to holiday destinations, no flights at all linking between the various National brands/home airports.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 59):
And with hundreds of high-street shops in the UK alone to market the route through,

And getting less every year. One operator has recently realised the folly of buying extra branches just a few years back.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-06-23 04:17:48 and read 6605 times.

Hawaii has always been on my list of 'places to visit before I die' there's something iconic to us Brits and Europeans about it, even if the reality is less exciting! I imagine there would be takers for such a route, for the novelty and 'glamour' of going to such a distant destination, even if the time zone difference would be painful.

Incidentally I saw a Thomson 787 landing at LGW yesterday, my first 787   I pointed out the sexy wings (my exact words!) to my father!

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 04:31:49 and read 6481 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 63):
TUI fly point to point from Northern Europe to holiday destinations, no flights at all linking between the various National brands/home airports.

Whilst the Charter flight schedules are not apparently co-ordinated use of massive Group buying power for whole Hotel and Leisure facilities, cruise liners down to car hire deals very much are !

I think this debate re Europe-Hawaii is cyclical and a search as far back as 2007 on this forum brings up the same comments again and again.

Differences between the US and European contributors include

US normally perceive a scheduled operation by a legacy and from a primary hub (LHR/CDG/FRA/AMS)- I think this is flawed on economical grounds.

Europeans remain more aware that any operation would be a limited Inclusive tour operation at very low frequencies and more probably from secondary and mainly leisure traffic airports of LGW/MAN and perhaps Dusseldorf Amsterdam and Stockholm .

Hawaii has been offered in the past from the UK via Vancouver (CP AIr Holidays) and whilst i wouldn't fly 6000+ miles to sit on a beach true some would.

If TUi group can score say four or five hotel contracts (Mid Range and one Premium) - Around 500 rooms per week, plus get a seasonal cruise liner from partners Royal Caribbean / Hapag Lloyd out their I think they could do some business - sufficient for weekly Gatwick, Amsterdam and fortnightly Stockholm/Manchester operation from winter 2014.

These would be sold via the Tui Premium and Cruise brands with very limited flight only offers.

Not exactly a large mass travel operation !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 04:38:41 and read 6430 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 57):
You will never see the average concorde to BGI passenger on a thompson aircraft.

I'm talking about BA using a 3 class (no First) next generation aircraft.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 57):
Perhaps its kept them from going bankrupt

Missing opportunity and not recognizing the way the industry was going kept them from going bankrupt ? The only major legacy in Europe to take pre-emptive action anywhere near soon enough was BA and they left it too late. The others just waited for the LCC's to creep up on them. A good example is LH that has done a complete U-turn on its approach to gulf carriers of late now that BA and AF through alliances are securing co-operation with these airlines.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 64):
Hawaii has always been on my list of 'places to visit before I die' there's something iconic to us Brits

  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 04:48:42 and read 6355 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 65):
get a seasonal cruise liner from partners Royal Caribbean / Hapag Lloyd out their I think they could do some business - sufficient for weekly Gatwick, Amsterdam and fortnightly Stockholm/Manchester operation from winter 2014.


In fact this ship already fits the bill and will be in the said location during winter 2014
With a 1000 berths - TUi could resell maybe 10% for a tidy margin

Rhapsody of Seas by Royal Carribean

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-23 05:04:51 and read 6292 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 67):
In fact this ship already fits the bill and will be in the said location during winter 2014
With a 1000 berths - TUi could resell maybe 10% for a tidy margin

TUI already sell RCI without the risk factor involved due to RCI taking on the responsibility for the flights via UA AA etc... Its still a gamble for a dedicated HNL charter even with a hotel/cruise program. Im sure RCI wouldnt have an issue with selling TUI staterooms as there is no risk to RCI but its a big risk if your talking allocation for TUI unless they intended to factor in handing them back before balance was due and thus loose a deposit of GBP100-150pp .

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 05:25:40 and read 6220 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 68):
TUI already sell RCI without the risk factor involved due to RCI taking on the responsibility for the flights via UA AA etc... Its still a gamble for a dedicated HNL charter even with a hotel/cruise program. Im sure RCI wouldnt have an issue with selling TUI staterooms as there is no risk to RCI but its a big risk if your talking allocation for TUI unless they intended to factor in handing them back before balance was due and thus loose a deposit of GBP100-150pp .

Risk acknowledged !

What i have done is given an indication of what is needed to be achieved to make even a very small programme viable !

Today we really don't know if TUi will progress to offering an Hawaiian product range - We just have a statement of consideration and there are others in the field including returns to Indian Ocean, Kenya,Thailand (Regional from Manchester) More Mexico and additional Caribbean Isles.

The resources are finite -They know some of those have sold in the past.

The Group has additional 787 slot options (Previous 788 cancelations) and may yet convert some of those - I would not be surprised if they go with the larger 789 model for follow on orders.
Actually an aside i expect very few new 788 orders from anyone now on !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 05:39:16 and read 6180 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 65):
Not exactly a large mass travel operation !

No air route ever was before the introduction of various aircraft over the years. You're sounding a bit 1950's !

Surely the 787 and its like do make it viable.

What is the difference between this long-haul leisure route and any other long-haul leisure route now with these new aircraft ?

The 787 and its like represent a seismic shift in what is possible.

You're writing-off the idea without even considering the change in circumstance and the possibility of an increase in market size for this route.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-23 05:44:44 and read 6163 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 69):
What i have done is given an indication of what is needed to be achieved to make even a very small programme viable !

Yes for sure. I wonder how much a flight LGW-HNL would cost to run per round trip ? Anyone know? Also the price per passenger to break even.

Another thing is alot of people from the UK/Ireland go to HNL via a major US city and take a stop there like LAX SFO etc...

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-06-23 05:47:28 and read 6155 times.

I think people are making the wrong assumptions in regards to people in Europe going to Hawaii for vacation.

The biggest issue with going to Hawaii is up till now the need for connecting flights, whether it's through Vancouver, BC (flying via AC from Europe) or through Tokyo (flying via JL or NH from Europe). With the 787-8, the TUI Group could now schedule direct flights from the UK or Germany directly to HNL, but (in my opinion!) the seating arrangements on planes designed for ferrying passengers on charter holiday packages may not be a good idea on what could be a 14.5 hour flight one-way.

A.net user 1400mph mentioned earlier that BA could do this, if they market an LGW-HNL nonstop flight as part of a premium holiday package flying 787-8's (which I personally think) fitted with some Club World seating and roomier World Traveler Plus seating. That way, British tour operators catering to well-heeled vacationers can sell this flight as part of a vacation package to Hawaii including an inter-island cruise.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-23 06:02:06 and read 6118 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 49):
To put this in perspective, what would be the return fuel price per passenger on a Thompson 787 from LGW to HNL assuming a 80% load?

about $500 per person

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 06:06:49 and read 6102 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 70):
Surely the 787 and its like do make it viable.

Only in Boeings marketing publicity.

I know you would like to see BA fly the route from LHR however I don't see it as viable today.

These markets are traditionally tested by Inclusive Tour operators and this point as said TUi are considering it among many others.

Such a long haul market on distant isles remain a huge profit/loss risk.

Just look at Air France and its Pacific operations - A wedge of Tax payers € are needed to support the operation.

At this time the 788 is NOT a game changer but rather a 763 replacement in the majority of markets.
The benefits on medium haul are significant enough for the legacies.

For the foreseeable future i would expect BA to dump you in LAX - Getting you there on a A388 and handing you over to AA or and interline with HA/UA or even Delta.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-06-23 06:11:02 and read 6083 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 72):
but (in my opinion!) the seating arrangements on planes designed for ferrying passengers on charter holiday packages may not be a good idea on what could be a 14.5 hour flight one-way.

I think that is probably a very good point, RayChuang. One has to expect that people who can even contemplate a vacation so many thousands of miles away won't be short of the odd few hundred dollars - but, IMO, they WILL be expecting a reasonable level of comfort.

[Edited 2013-06-23 06:41:17]

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-06-23 06:13:51 and read 6086 times.

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 36):
I'm also struck by how many are happy/thrilled with their accommodations at places like Best Western, Holiday Inn, etc. - I'd assume that on a vacation like this they'd prefer something more "special", but clearly there is a market for a long-haul, budget-minded traveler.

As you may be aware, Europeans tend to stay a lot longer than their American/Japanese counterparts so they need to stretch the money more. That means cheaper accomodations, often condo complexes (aparthotels).

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 46):
There is demand for services from the UK to HNL - small, unprofitable demand, that is profitably served by a one stop.

That all depends on the operation. That is certainly true for a US based carrier. I can't imagine that being true for a European based carrier. So what you're suggesting is that the European carriers should leave the Hawaiian market in the hands of N.American carriers  
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 49):
Hawaii was 'in' about twenty years ago

Hawaii is always 'in' and always 'out', depending on your market.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 50):

Hawaii always is 'twenty years ago', at least, so what ?!

  

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 49):
Hawaii is not a cheap destination

Barbados, St. Marteen, USVI, BVI, Aruba, Maldives, Reunion, Seychelles, etc.. they're even more expensive and thousands upon thousands of people go there every year.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 53):
The difference is that living costs in Phuket are such that the tour operators can pay for the aircraft fuel and still offer a cheap holiday.

Phuket is a mass market. Hawaii isn't. See my comment above regarding many other vacation destinations that are a lot more expensive than Hawaii and are comparable markets.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 57):
60 posts for a fantasy one weekly seasonal charter that may or may not happen - wow.

Except HA has been fairly certain that they will fly to Europe with their A350's. I'd say it's a bit more than fantasy. With the 787 lower operating costs I think it's a debate worth having.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 60):
On turnover of 14bn, profits were 137m last year...

What was United's turnover and profit last year? And you're saying that this market is better served by one-stop  Wow!
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 65):
Hawaii has been offered in the past from the UK via Vancouver (CP AIr Holidays) and whilst i wouldn't fly 6000+ miles to sit on a beach true some would.

That's the biggest misconception about Hawaii. The beaches are nice but it's a whole lot more than just beaches. Hawaii is sorely undermarketed in Europe. I'll go as far as saying that UK-Maui would be a prefered route if it weren't for the short runway in Maui. Maybe a LGW-OGG-HNL-LGW route. If the tour operators and the Hawaii tourism board do their job right, this market will explode. One advantage that the UK market has is that UK school vacations are offset from the US school vacations, thus giving Hawaii the ability to extend their peak seasons.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-23 06:22:31 and read 6025 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
That's the biggest misconception about Hawaii. The beaches are nice but it's a whole lot more than just beaches. Hawaii is sorely undermarketed in Europe.

You are right its very under sold here. There is more marketing for Hawaii in the cruise market and people often know what they want to see with various tours when the ships are in the various ports of call. NCL did a great job in highlighting Hawaii over the last few years to the European market.

Im still not sure Id like to do a non stop on that length of flight. I would rather split it and stop somewhere. Then again I am not a fan of longhaul flights.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: qf002
Posted 2013-06-23 06:35:49 and read 5979 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 72):

I agree that a more premium style arrangement would probably fit the market better, but I don't expect to see BA or (more likely IMO) VS take an interest until its been proven somewhat viable by a charter operator.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 07:03:25 and read 5915 times.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 78):
but I don't expect to see BA or (more likely IMO) VS

Why ?

BA was flying to the Caribbean/Hawaii etc when VS was just a glint in SRB's eye !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-23 07:05:13 and read 5911 times.

80 comments on a fantasy one weekly charter route.... Records will be broken soon.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 65):
If TUi group can score say four or five hotel contracts (Mid Range and one Premium) - Around 500 rooms per week, plus get a seasonal cruise liner from partners Royal Caribbean / Hapag Lloyd out their I think they could do some business - sufficient for weekly Gatwick, Amsterdam and fortnightly Stockholm/Manchester operation from winter 2014.

So, like in the HA thread, the fantasy route planning goes from one route weekly, to four destinations!

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 70):
You're sounding a bit 1950's !

So, if someone disagrees with you, they sound 1950's....

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 73):
about $500 per person

Just for fuel. wow. You can get a holiday in Europe for that price.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
So what you're suggesting is that the European carriers should leave the Hawaiian market in the hands of N.American carriers

Yes.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
Barbados, St. Marteen, USVI, BVI, Aruba, Maldives, Reunion, Seychelles, etc.. they're even more expensive and thousands upon thousands of people go there every year.

Yes - Former Dutch/French/British commonwealth markets with a history of trade and VFR that Hawaii doesn't have from London. There is also a perception of quality and uniqueness.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
Phuket is a mass market. Hawaii isn't.

Mass market = volume = profits. Leave niche to specialists.

Phuket hasn't seen direct air service from the UK in many years. It is a well served one stop route joined by a 1 weekly seasonal service this year.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
Except HA has been fairly certain that they will fly to Europe with their A350's.

Do you have a quote for that?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
And you're saying that this market is better served by one-stop

Yes. It is better served by one stop as the direct Point to Point volume doesn't exist.

The market is tiny. 40pax per day O&D from London is the largest O&D from Europe.

Name one 15hr flight with 40pax per day leisure O&D.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 07:48:42 and read 5777 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 80):
So, like in the HA thread, the fantasy route planning goes from one route weekly, to four destinations!

Agreed the whole thread is a game of fantasy Traffic planning.

What i have suggested and its been picked up by fellow tricolour member yet Greek flight number - Is what TUi would need to offer just to make a small programme of Inclusive Tours remotely workable.

If you analyse the likes of TUi, Kuoni and Thomas Cook Worldwide offerings you will find they tend to offer a base minimum of 4-5 hotels - Again 3 mid priced and one premium or all inclusive and a cruise to most long haul destinations.
The hotels may be in just one or two locations.

And I have to agree no way a legacy going to operate a EU-Hawaii scheduled any time soon .


Quoting 1400mph (Reply 79):
Why ?

BA was flying to the Caribbean/Hawaii etc when VS was just a glint in SRB's eye !


When BOAC operated via HNL -the world was a different place Hong Kong was to remain a UK sovereign territory for another 25 years and the 707 and VC10 were the mainstay of the state owned airline.

The Caribbean flights were bring in thousands of migrant workers and they even operated from Manchester and Prestwick down as far as Georgetown in Guyana mainland South America !

Thats far away from this thread which is about Thomson Airways and TUi and future long haul holiday flights !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: qf002
Posted 2013-06-23 07:54:49 and read 5743 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 79):
Why ?

VS started LAS first.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 08:10:38 and read 5702 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 80):
So, if someone disagrees with you, they sound 1950's....

Isn't that disingenuous ? Are you suggesting that whenever someone disagrees with me no matter what they say I think they sound 1950's ? What if they prefer CD's and I prefer vinyl ?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 80):
The market is tiny. 40pax per day O&D from London is the largest O&D from Europe.

How could you possibly know the size of the market ? Let alone the size of the potential market ? Nobody is talking double-daily here not even daily. Many scheduled airlines still operate twice, thrice weekly service to various destinations.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 80):
Yes - Former Dutch/French/British commonwealth markets with a history of trade and VFR that Hawaii doesn't have from London.

Sorry but that's crap. The majority of people travelling to Barbados etc are not VFR or travelling for any reason connected with the commonwealth.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 81):
When BOAC operated via HNL -the world was a different place Hong Kong was to remain a UK sovereign territory for another 25 years and the 707 and VC10 were the mainstay of the state owned airline.The Caribbean flights were bring in thousands of migrant workers and they even operated from Manchester and Prestwick down as far as Georgetown in Guyana mainland South America !Thats far away from this thread which is about Thomson Airways and TUi and future long haul holiday flights !

Easy, I only said that because BA has a far longer record of flying to leisure destinations than VS. It was silly for someone to suggest the route would likely be flown by VS over BA.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2013-06-23 08:29:10 and read 5641 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 80):
Phuket hasn't seen direct air service from the UK in many years. It is a well served one stop route joined by a 1 weekly seasonal service this year.

Thomson are to launch LGW-HKT flights from later this year using the 787...

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/...s-to-serve-phuket-with-dreamliner/

Well served or not, it's fair to say that direct flights are preferable for some.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 08:29:11 and read 5627 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 83):
Easy, I only said that because BA has a far longer record of flying to leisure destinations than VS. It was silly for someone to suggest the route would likely be flown by VS over BA

Ten years and two months !

And never forget VS was formed largely as an early LCC and as a result of Freddy Lakers failures !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 08:38:33 and read 5584 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 87):
Florida say ? I'm sure they would not share your opinion of British tourists as nor I dare say would those in Hawaii.

This is something we both agree on.

The Brits do indeed the swamps and mouse-land afloat all year round - Even when it rains in what is normally the off season !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 08:39:29 and read 5583 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 86):
Ten years and two months !

Oh come on dear fellow, lets not beat around the bush. BOAC then .......of which without there would have been no BA.

BRITISH overseas AIRWAYS corporation.

+

BRITISH european AIRWAYS

=

BRITISH AIRWAYS

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 08:40:25 and read 5574 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 88):
This is something we both agree on.

LOL

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-23 08:47:40 and read 5550 times.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 85):
Thomson are to launch LGW-HKT flights from later this year using the 787...

That is a route I can see working very well and has proved so in the past. Its a much more ''To do'' destination for Europeans.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 81):
Georgetown in Guyana mainland South America !

Yep and without those you wouldnt have Leona Lewis and Eddy Grant   There was actually a documentary on being an FA on BBC and they covered those arrivals with rare video footage. Mind you I knew the passenger stories first hand from Guyanese Family  

I would like to see a UK-HNL flight launch just to see the results. It would be very interesting to see the loads and yields.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-23 09:56:35 and read 5342 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 83):
How could you possibly know the size of the market ?

Well, if you clicked on the link i posted earlier on in the thread, it brought you to actual O&D information for the route we are discussing. It also brought you to statistics from Hawaii tourism.

Yes, actual data. actual statistics.

Not Fantasy.

Thats how I "possibly know the size of the market".

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 83):
Sorry but that's crap. The majority of people travelling to Barbados etc are not VFR or travelling for any reason connected with the commonwealth.

What do you consider "crap" or inaccurate about my comment that "former Dutch/French/British commonwealth markets have a history of trade and VFR that Hawaii doesn't have from London."


Since the nature of debate is now at "crap" level, I now exit this thread.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-06-23 10:04:37 and read 5311 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 80):
Yes. It is better served by one stop as the direct Point to Point volume doesn't exist.
The market is tiny. 40pax per day O&D from London is the largest O&D from Europe.

That just means they'll have to work a little harder to sell it  
40 per week from London alone? Are you sure it's that many? I would have never expected that many. Are you implying that every week 280 people travel between London and Hawaii? Add in pax from other parts of the UK and the rest of Europe and the issue of demand goes away quiet fast 
Quote:
Name one 15hr flight with 40pax per day leisure O&D.

I don't have access to that kind of data but If you want to get technical I'm sure someone could. Exactly how many O&D pax would you guess EK is carrying between SEA and DXB?  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-06-23 10:17:40 and read 5283 times.

Such a service would not surprise me. Operating a weekly LGW-HNL-MAN-HNL-LGW routing could help ease crew downtime, the aircraft wouldn't have to return straight from MAN either.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 12):
The real question though is why British holiday makers would bother to fly all the way to Hawai'i when for a lot less flying hours, and a lot less transitted time zones they can get to Mauritius, the Seychelles, the Maldives, the Caribbean, Thailand?

Thousands of people travel to a small Indonesian island each year which is even further than Hawaii.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 35):
I don't get why people on here always use great circle mapper. Do you not realize no commercial aircraft flies direct?

Can you suggest another available method then, which gives a comparable distance between various points?

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 35):
Not only will a realistic flight plan be closer to 1000 miles, but you are fighting some of the strongest high altitude winds on the planet the entire way.

Out of interest, do you have any evidence of this? My understanding is that most of such a flight would be roughly on a path specifically chosen by many TATL flights to avoid en route winds. Regardless, it evens out - what hinders you one way helps you the other.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-23 10:20:18 and read 5266 times.

It amazes me how many are *not* excited about new routes. The 787 will open new possibilities. Thomson to Hawaii has quite a bit of merit for a few times per week charter.

The question wouldn't be if there is demand, but how much Thomson could grow the demand. I would be shocked if they couldn't at least double the demand.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 85):
Thomson are to launch LGW-HKT flights from later this year using the 787...

Good to hear. I'm sure Thomson will have no trouble finding a bunch of new destinations and re-launched old ones with the economics of the 787.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 67):
In fact this ship already fits the bill and will be in the said location during winter 2014
With a 1000 berths - TUi could resell maybe 10% for a tidy margin

Nice to know... I might look into that ship for myself.  
Quoting 1400mph (Reply 70):
Surely the 787 and its like do make it viable.

   The 787, MAX, NEO, and A359 will all help fragment the world and open up new markets. The next 15 years will see exciting growth for air transport.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: ukoverlander
Posted 2013-06-23 10:29:39 and read 5235 times.

Plymspotter, I can add some information for you here. When Lufthansa flew Munich - Honolulu (A340-600) in Jan 2011 (for a Cruise liner charter) the recorded flight time from Munich was 14 hours and 48 minutes and the actual flight distance was 7063nm (the Great Circle distance is just a little shorter at 6598nm but that's pretty close - likely deviation to make the most of more advantageous winds). The return flight was I understand about 14 hours.

When viewed as GC the route is not dissimilar to a London - Anchorage - Honolulu heading. Of course when using the various oceanic tracks and waypoints (when overflying land) there will be some deviations. Based upon the info above deviation from GC was about 7% for LH.

Using a Gatwick - Honolulu comparison which is about 350nm shorter we can guess the flight time might be perhaps 30 minutes shorter in similar flying conditions.

[Edited 2013-06-23 10:37:45]

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 10:38:40 and read 5200 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 97):
Using a Gatwick - Honolulu comparison which is about 350nm shorter we can guess the flight time might be perhaps 30 minutes shorter in similar flying conditions.

I don't see why BA LGW - MRU can work 3 times a week and LGW - HNL can not.

MRU is one hell of a jaunt.

???

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-06-23 10:40:27 and read 5185 times.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 97):

Plymspotter, I can add some information for you here. When Lufthansa flew Munich - Honolulu (A340-600) in Jan 2011 (for a Cruise liner charter) the recorded flight time from Munich was 14 hours and 48 minutes and the actual flight distance was 7063nm (the Great Circle distance is just a little shorter at 6598nm but that's pretty close - likely deviation to make the most of more advantageous winds). The return flight was I understand about 14 hours.

Thank you - that's interesting. I was expecting a deviation in the region of ~10% GC distance.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-06-23 11:47:25 and read 5053 times.

To answer Bestwestern in reply 60, no of course I don't think Thomson will provide feeder services themselves.
I have been on many VS flights to the Caribbean and heard many different European languages spoken by passengers, they connect to LGW probably on easyJet or BA. Same as people from Scotland or the Channel Islands do for example.
And yes, I'm fully aware Thomson have less shops on the high street than in past years, but it's still a significant number.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 12:02:53 and read 4996 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 101):
I have been on many VS flights to the Caribbean and heard many different European languages spoken by passengers

What has a scheduled operator with extensive interline agreements got to do with a Charter operation where the vast majority of seats are block booked by Tour operators ?

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 99):
I don't see why BA LGW - MRU can work 3 times a week and LGW - HNL can not.

MRU is one hell of a jaunt.

Huge and long established Wedding /Honeymoon and sport fishing markets.

Oh and unless BA transfer a 788 down to Gatters its surely an non starter !

I would never say never however i think the A350s might be the true ULH frame in the future of BA/IAG

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: malioil
Posted 2013-06-23 12:09:49 and read 4969 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 68):

NCLs Pride of America would be a far better choice as their voyages are 7 nights long and operate year round, as well as the fact that they are released for sale around a year before any other ship releases their itineraries.

As to TUI selling Hapag-Lloyd Cruises, the Europa and Europa 2 are the most ultra-luxury deluxe ships in the world, charing the highest fares in the industry, so are not likely to be Brian & Debbie's choice.

This route may have limited success as a once weekly operation.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-23 12:09:52 and read 4967 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 101):
I have been on many VS flights to the Caribbean and heard many different European languages spoken by passengers, they connect to LGW probably on easyJet or BA. Same as people from Scotland or the Channel Islands do for example.

I can see where you are coming from but in reality people don't connect in large volumes from scheduled services to charters. On the VS/BA flights connections are usually all on a through fare and if one flight is delayed or cancelled people get re booked. Flying say from FRA-LGW on BA to connect to a Thomson charter to HNL would be risky. As happens now and again charters get rescheduled and if it did and the flight did not connect you then risk having to buy new tickets to connect to that charter or pay hefty change fees. Based on that its not worth it for the majority. Better go with a scheduled carrier all the way even if it involves a stop in LAX SFO etc.. Sure they are stopping anyway eitherway.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-06-23 12:29:10 and read 4915 times.

It's common practice for people connecting onto a long-haul flight, beit a charter or otherwise, to fly to LGW / MAN etc the night before and stay overnight as part of the overall travel arrangements incase of weather or other delays or flight time changes.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 12:40:42 and read 4901 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 102):
Huge and long established Wedding /Honeymoon and sport fishing markets.

Hawaii has abundant charms on offer does it not ? All that you mention above and more.

There is such a thing as marketing and advertising you know !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 12:42:33 and read 4891 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 105):
It's common practice for people connecting onto a long-haul flight, beit a charter or otherwise, to fly to LGW / MAN etc the night before and stay overnight as part of the overall travel arrangements incase of weather or other delays or flight time changes.

Na its not least ways in the case of TUi holidays.

As for Thomas Cook/Condor you might have a point in future as the company is moving towards a merged operation for sure.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-23 12:45:27 and read 4891 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 105):
It's common practice for people connecting onto a long-haul flight, beit a charter or otherwise, to fly to LGW / MAN etc the night before and stay overnight as part of the overall travel arrangements incase of weather or other delays or flight time changes.

So you are proposing that holiday makers shell out for two hotels for transit at LGW ? One for the way out and one for the way back in case of delays? Doesn't happen that often I can assure you. It certainly would not account for any meaningful feed traffic to any HNL charter that you suggested. People will fly AA/UA/DL from their closest airport and transit in the USA rather than go through all that.

Sometimes the package operators offer deals for overnights at UK Airports as part of the start to their holidays but that does not involve two nights and risky connections.

Quoting malioil (Reply 103):
NCLs Pride of America would be a far better choice as their voyages are 7 nights long and operate year round, as well as the fact that they are released for sale around a year before any other ship releases their itineraries.

Yes I agree they are superior than the RCI Rhapsody.

Quoting malioil (Reply 103):
the Europa and Europa 2 are the most ultra-luxury deluxe ships in the world, charing the highest fares in the industry, so are not likely to be Brian & Debbie's choice.

Indeed it would not be the product for a ''package'' program at all far too exclusive.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-06-23 13:08:06 and read 4833 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 108):
So you are proposing that holiday makers shell out for two hotels for transit at LGW

And add how much ADP ?

The TUi customers in France/Belgium/Netherlands and Scandinavia will be directed to the appropriate local web and offerings.

And they do differ in each market !

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 106):
Hawaii has abundant charms on offer does it not ? All that you mention above and more.

There is such a thing as marketing and advertising you know !

It does and a small premium Inclusive Tour operator might provide a taster !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: Boeing74741R
Posted 2013-06-23 13:31:45 and read 4755 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 91):
I would like to see a UK-HNL flight launch just to see the results. It would be very interesting to see the loads and yields.

  

It'll settle some of the assumptions being made on here once and for all. Sometimes it takes one airline to open a route, tap into a demand and next thing everyone is serving the tour. I also believe that to make a destination more attractive and more viable to a market which is assumed to be non-existent, direct flights should be offered. Having to make a change somewhere won't stop those who really need/want to go to a certain place, but it's fair to say some people won't give certain places a thought because there's no direct flights.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-06-23 14:08:31 and read 4690 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 108):
So you are proposing that holiday makers shell out for two hotels for transit at LGW ? One for the way out and one for the way back in case of delays? Doesn't happen that often I can assure you.

It certainly does from the UK regions, which I believe is to what the poster was referring. I am struggling to think of anyone I know in the South West who hasn't done this, or still does when they travel on holiday. Before PLH was closed self made connections to/from longhaul flights (either the same, previous or next day) made up a major portion of the traffic, same currently goes for NQY, the Channel Isles and parts of Scotland. Due to the limited number of flights you normally end up in a hotel at least one way, but it still beats the 5+ hour drive, which you really don't want before or after a long flight.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 14:11:12 and read 4681 times.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 110):
I also believe that to make a destination more attractive and more viable to a market which is assumed to be non-existent, direct flights should be offered. Having to make a change somewhere won't stop those who really need/want to go to a certain place, but it's fair to say some people won't give certain places a thought because there's no direct flights.

  

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: qf002
Posted 2013-06-23 18:07:50 and read 4470 times.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 83):
It was silly for someone to suggest the route would likely be flown by VS over BA.

Why? I justified it (perhaps you don't agree with that justification, but that's just a matter of opinion). Surely it is equally 'silly' for you to assume that BA might fly the route simply because they have a longer history.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 23:45:43 and read 4245 times.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 109):
Surely it is equally 'silly' for you to assume that BA might fly the route simply because they have a longer history.

I have not assumed anything. I am only using BA as a basis to build my argument for HNL. Which could just as equally be applied to VS commencing the route. My point however was that BA are just as committed to their leisure routes as VS.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 98):
Oh and unless BA transfer a 788 down to Gatters its surely an non starter !

Not so long ago the Gatters fleet consisted of 742's and DC-10's. What's your point ?

Are you a fortune teller rutankrd ?

 

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-23 23:59:20 and read 4210 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 112):

I am sorry if I offended you and for calling what you said 'crap'. I take it back. Not very respectful. Apologies.

However, I must say that the majority of people flying to long-haul 'leisure' destinations on the likes of BA and VS and certainly Thomson and the charters are not VFR or flying due to reasons connected with the commonwealth.

Maybe they are from the other ports in Europe which I accept.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: APYu
Posted 2013-06-24 00:47:28 and read 4129 times.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 84):
Thomson are to launch LGW-HKT flights from later this year using the 787...

Note this is a re-launch. They know the market is there as they have served it before - but now they can offer it without the middle east stop the costs have come down significantly.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 95):
I don't see why BA LGW - MRU can work 3 times a week and LGW - HNL can not

MRU has lots of offshore bankers popping in and out in Club class and willing to pay flexible fares. One of the biggest complaints since this moved to Gatwick is that those people no longer have First class as an option (#hardlife)

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: KiwiRob
Posted 2013-06-24 01:39:02 and read 4037 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
Get them in the seats and turn on the IFE and hope the kids nap. I haven't braved long haul with my kids, but I bet they would love it. The flight would be just as much an adventure as the destination. But transferring flights... ugh. I'm having to do that with my kids next week and it is the one part of the trip I worry about as with kids, they add a whole new dimension with connections...

I'm with you on that one, I heading home to AKL this summer, 4 flights to get there, 5 flights to comes home, with a 8, 5 & 2 year old, it's goinna be fun fun fun.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 57):
A full 2.5 hours less than to HNL (Eqv - an extra daily rotation to Malaga).

If you're prepared to travel 12.5 hours travelling 15 hours isn't much longer I don't see that being a factor at all.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 71):
Another thing is alot of people from the UK/Ireland go to HNL via a major US city and take a stop there like LAX SFO etc...

Mainly because they have no direct option.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 76):
That's the biggest misconception about Hawaii. The beaches are nice but it's a whole lot more than just beaches. Hawaii is sorely undermarketed in Europe.

Well said, there is simply far more things to do in Hawaii than most island beach destinations.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 98):
Huge and long established Wedding /Honeymoon and sport fishing markets.

Which is all par for the course in Hawaii.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-24 02:47:20 and read 3936 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 113):
If you're prepared to travel 12.5 hours travelling 15 hours isn't much longer I don't see that being a factor at all.

Not a factor for the passenger, I agree, but for the airline - that extra 2.5 hours is the same as an additional sector to Spain.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-24 03:02:42 and read 3885 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 113):
If you're prepared to travel 12.5 hours travelling 15 hours isn't much longer I don't see that being a factor at all.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 113):
Mainly because they have no direct option.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 113):
Well said, there is simply far more things to do in Hawaii than most island beach destinations.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 113):
Which is all par for the course in Hawaii.

My points exactly.

The whole point of leisure air travel is to open up new opportunity.

Even Spain was out of the reach of the Northern European majority less than half a life-time ago !

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-06-24 03:09:04 and read 3882 times.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 113):
Mainly because they have no direct option.

In my experience they do this as part of their holiday plans. Your paying the same fare so they take a free stopover and see another city. Twin centre holidays in the USA are very popular. New York/Las Vegas . - New York / Los Angeles -
San Fransisco - Boston Hawaii / San Fransisco etc... If you are going all that way you might as well make the most of it. There are dedicated brochures by Tour Operators for these due to their popularity. With numerous daily flights its also more widely used to tailor make the clients needs.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: CRJ900
Posted 2013-06-24 04:59:12 and read 3730 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):
I'd like to point out that the 787 was built for ULH routes, especially rather thin routes.

How ULH can the 787-8 go with 275-325 pax and bags? I assume Thompson will have around 300 seats in their 787-8?

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-24 07:10:08 and read 3573 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 117):
How ULH can the 787-8 go with 275-325 pax and bags? I assume Thompson will have around 300 seats in their 787-8?

SeatGuru shows 288 seats. Range with that seat count is 7600nm.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: dazbo5
Posted 2013-06-24 08:16:50 and read 3452 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 117):
I assume Thompson will have around 300 seats in their 787-8?

291 (244Y, 47Y+).

Darren

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-24 08:42:07 and read 3402 times.

DL and VS promote 1 stop to hawaii.

Topic: RE: Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-06-24 09:01:34 and read 3360 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 120):
DL and VS promote 1 stop to hawaii.

Who doesn't ?


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