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Topic: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-03 06:32:16 and read 25226 times.

Apparently on Tuesday an AA 777-300ER being positioned to the a gate at JFK ran into the winglet of a fellow company 757.

Last nights JFK-GRU AA951 was cancelled as a result.

Image:
http://imgur.com/6tSgjba

=

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: dirtyfrankd
Posted 2013-07-03 06:36:21 and read 25200 times.

Looking at the picture, it doesn't look like the 77W sustained much damage?

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: catiii
Posted 2013-07-03 06:37:37 and read 25188 times.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 1):
Looking at the picture, it doesn't look like the 77W sustained much damage?

Looks like a long scratch under the wing from the winglet. Follow the line from the leading edge to where the winglet currently is.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-07-03 06:41:15 and read 25111 times.

I knew there was a downside to having those winglets retrofitted...

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: na
Posted 2013-07-03 06:44:58 and read 25059 times.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 1):
Looking at the picture, it doesn't look like the 77W sustained much damage?

As can be seen in the picture the leading edge of the 77W is damaged/dented.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-07-03 06:56:29 and read 24922 times.

Even a scratch delays a flight hours.

Real process once this ball gets rolling

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: oc2dc
Posted 2013-07-03 09:48:37 and read 24088 times.

If you check out the John F. Kennedy Airport geo-tag on Instagram, you can see a few photos and videos of the damage. Instagram is only useful on your phone, so i'm unable to share the links.

I just want to know what ramper wasn't paying attention? I would be taking extra care if I saw this brand new cat rolling in...

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: A388
Posted 2013-07-03 10:38:00 and read 23665 times.

Is JFK too crowded or are the maneuvring areas on the ramp small there? I remember the AF A380 and DL CRJ incident there some time ago. What came out of that incident? Who was to blame for that incident?

A388

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: CO764
Posted 2013-07-03 11:14:23 and read 23344 times.

It'll be interesting to see how long the 757 stays out of service because the Swiss A330 that had its winglet torn off at YUL about a month ago (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/5784549/) was returned to regular service in only two weeks!

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-07-03 12:22:46 and read 22114 times.

Ouch. One of those "bumps."

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 6):
I just want to know what ramper wasn't paying attention? I would be taking extra care if I saw this brand new cat rolling in...

  

Don't they have wing walkers?

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-03 12:35:47 and read 21704 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 5):
Even a scratch delays a flight hours.

Real process once this ball gets rolling

A scratch will not delay the flight and this seems to be a little more than a scratch.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2013-07-03 13:28:48 and read 20067 times.

Quoting A388 (Reply 7):
Is JFK too crowded or are the maneuvring areas on the ramp small there?

Both...Alley ways tight and configured poorly for the size aircraft. Also JFK consistently not busy, it does however have RUSH hour time slots that will produce chaos in short order.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: phishphan70
Posted 2013-07-03 13:34:37 and read 19873 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

Never did i think my two loves, A.net and Imgur, would come together!!!

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: SLCGuy
Posted 2013-07-03 13:57:32 and read 19297 times.

Looks like the 757 will need an inspection of the wing structure and winglet replacement, guessing down time of a couple of days. The 77W however may take longer, the leading edge slat replacement/repair is an a quick fix. But the so called scratch is to the lower part of the wing's skin which is also the outer wall of the wet wing fuel tanks might take longer. If the gouge is too deep, replacement of a large section of under wing panels might be needed.

[Edited 2013-07-03 14:23:19]

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: TrnsWrld
Posted 2013-07-03 14:17:56 and read 18731 times.

It's unbelievable that this keeps happening. If I was in charge of moving an aircraft I would be damn sure it doesn't hit another plane. I mean, is it really that hard to see a huge f'ing triple seven sitting literally right next to the plane your pushing? This isn't rocket science here ground people. Now a brand spankin new triple seven has a ding on its carfax report  

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-07-03 14:28:51 and read 18419 times.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 14):
It's unbelievable that this keeps happening. If I was in charge of moving an aircraft I would be damn sure it doesn't hit another plane. I mean, is it really that hard to see a huge f'ing triple seven sitting literally right next to the plane your pushing? This isn't rocket science here ground people. Now a brand spankin new triple seven has a ding on its carfax report

It's not entirely the ground people's fault. Most of our airports were not designed to handle these large aircraft. The fact that so few of these incidents occur is a testament to the quality of the people working there.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: comairguycvg
Posted 2013-07-03 15:00:50 and read 17627 times.

Looks likw a wing walker fail.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-07-03 15:12:58 and read 17344 times.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 14):

Also, before you start trashing those involved, get the story right. The 77W was being positioned to a gate, it appears the 757 was not being moved.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-07-03 15:37:07 and read 16830 times.

Quoting A388 (Reply 7):
Is JFK too crowded or are the maneuvring areas on the ramp small there?
Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 14):
It's unbelievable that this keeps happening.

What I don't get is, considering the fact that obviously airports are getting more and more crowded with traffic increasing over years, why a simple system such as a park radar hasn't been created for aircraft... I can even find some for 70€ on eBay.... So the old "too expensive" answer is out of subject today, even for aviation matters!
Honestly, how come a 15000€ car can be fitted with such a system, while a 250+ Million plane can't ??

I wonder how long we'll have to wait yet until insurances companies force airlines to retrofit their planes with a similar system...

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-07-03 15:54:49 and read 16497 times.

Guess they have to paint them anyway... with the new (insert expletive here) colors.

Somebody did not "walk the plane"

TRB

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: JoePatroni707
Posted 2013-07-03 16:45:46 and read 15504 times.

Quoting CO764 (Reply 8):
Don't they have wing walkers
Quoting comairguycvg (Reply 16):
Looks likw a wing walker fail.

No, JFK uses a DGS system like in MIA and DFW, no wing walkers or guide man needed to park an aircraft

Quoting CO764 (Reply 8):
It'll be interesting to see how long the 757 stays out of service

5FS the 757 was returned to service at 1145 on the July 3rd, the 777 will ferry to DWH for additional repairs.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: GoBoeing
Posted 2013-07-03 17:00:38 and read 15173 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 10):
A scratch will not delay the flight

Wrong; a scratch can delay a flight.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-07-03 17:20:02 and read 14810 times.

AA950 GRU-JFK cancelled as a consequence. Not a good move in a busy month like July.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: thorntot
Posted 2013-07-03 17:32:15 and read 14548 times.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 20):
No, JFK uses a DGS system like in MIA and DFW, no wing walkers or guide man needed to park an aircraft

So how's that fancy DGS system workin' out for them?

I think I'd feel more comfortable pushing a $300 aircraft with an old-fashioned human under each wing, both equipped with a set of $4 lighted wands.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: JoePatroni707
Posted 2013-07-03 17:42:24 and read 14354 times.

Quoting thorntot (Reply 23):
So how's that fancy DGS system workin' out for them?

I think I'd feel more comfortable pushing a $300 aircraft with an old-fashioned human under each wing, both equipped with a set of $4 lighted wands.

For the most part, the DGS is an excellent system. I have not nor will I be privy to the investigation at JFK, but there are many factors that could be involved. DGS is only used for parking not pushing.

And lighted wands are $12 each, I know I order them.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2013-07-03 17:49:17 and read 14856 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
Not a good move in a busy month like July.

I'm sure the many advisers at American Airlines are thanking you for your advice because they didn't know how to maintain their operations...   

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: jmc1975
Posted 2013-07-03 19:26:18 and read 13168 times.

Quoting thorntot (Reply 23):
pushing a $300 aircraft

Are you talking about one of those RC aircraft from the Hobby Lobby?  

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2013-07-03 20:04:24 and read 12661 times.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 14):
If I was in charge of moving an aircraft I would be damn sure it doesn't hit another plane.

Like with any other job, sh!t happens, so far we do not know who's completely at fault.. Ramp Agent's aren't always the cause..

Quoting thorntot (Reply 23):
I think I'd feel more comfortable pushing a $300 aircraft

No wonder why AA could afford them..   

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: Fiedman
Posted 2013-07-03 20:38:38 and read 12157 times.

Pilot: We're gonna make it
CoPilot: No we're not
Pilot: We're gonna make it
CoPilot: No we're not
(Sound of metal scraping together and metal tearing)
CoPilot: Told you we weren't gonna make it
Pilot: Oh shut up

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: crownvic
Posted 2013-07-03 21:08:13 and read 11597 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 14):
It's unbelievable that this keeps happening. If I was in charge of moving an aircraft I would be damn sure it doesn't hit another plane. I mean, is it really that hard to see a huge f'ing triple seven sitting literally right next to the plane your pushing? This isn't rocket science here ground people. Now a brand spankin new triple seven has a ding on its carfax report

It's not entirely the ground people's fault. Most of our airports were not designed to handle these large aircraft. The fact that so few of these incidents occur is a testament to the quality of the people working there.


Really airbazar? Then who's fault is it? Surely this has nothing to do with the quality of workers the airlines are hiring these days? OK, you can blame the airlines for the pay they offer, but whether a ground handler makes $10K/yr or $100K/yr, it is their responsibility, that a/c do not hit each other. Maybe you do not pay for your airline tickets, but I do and every time this happens, paying passengers are paying for these careless errors through higher ticket costs, because of employee negligence. We live way too much in a society that does not want to take the blame for anything anymore and wants to point fingers at everyone else. These accidents are inexcusable.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2013-07-03 23:08:51 and read 10065 times.

Quoting Fiedman (Reply 28):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KgnkhumTwqo

 

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: comairguycvg
Posted 2013-07-03 23:50:12 and read 9416 times.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 20):
no wing walkers or guide man needed to park an aircraft

Seems like that's where the fail occurred.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: gazzadon
Posted 2013-07-04 00:04:49 and read 9233 times.

The info on the picture says it is a 737 not 757..

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: PDX88
Posted 2013-07-04 01:00:34 and read 8550 times.

Quoting gazzadon (Reply 32):

Picture title is incorrect. 7LB struck 5FS (a 757).

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: francoflier
Posted 2013-07-04 01:29:24 and read 8169 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
Don't they have wing walkers?

I don't know if there was, or if they dedicate the necessary manpower to walk the wings during ground manoeuvering, but they definitely just wasted a few years' worth of wing walker salary right there...

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 20):
no wing walkers or guide man needed to park an aircraft

Yes, we see that...

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-04 01:45:39 and read 7993 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
It's not entirely the ground people's fault. Most of our airports were not designed to handle these large aircraft. The fact that so few of these incidents occur is a testament to the quality of the people working there.

It is totally their fault. They were the ones that were in charge of moving the aircraft into position, there for it was the people who were moving the plane who were the ground crew.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-07-04 04:00:35 and read 6593 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 35):
It is totally their fault. They were the ones that were in charge of moving the aircraft into position, there for it was the people who were moving the plane who were the ground crew.

I'm sure they share part of the blame. I didn't say they didn't. But reality is that our airport infrastructure is squeezed to the last inch and with aircraft with greater wing spans showing up more often this is going to happen more often. Like someone said, sh!t happens.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-07-04 04:10:23 and read 6468 times.

I'm not sure that's a B757 & many of us missed the headline

Today at JFK 777 wing smashed into 737 wingtip



EK8413

[Edited 2013-07-04 04:19:15]

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-07-04 05:58:07 and read 5002 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 37):

Refer to:

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 33):


Hope this helps!  Smile

[Edited 2013-07-04 05:58:37]

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: gazzadon
Posted 2013-07-04 06:28:35 and read 4514 times.

Going by the picture it looks to low for a 757 but ideal for a 738.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: rcair1
Posted 2013-07-04 06:42:03 and read 4323 times.

Quoting Fiedman (Reply 28):
Pilot: We're gonna make it
CoPilot: No we're not
Pilot: We're gonna make it
CoPilot: No we're not
(Sound of metal scraping together and metal tearing)
CoPilot: Told you we weren't gonna make it
Pilot: Oh shut up

Sounds like me and my wife - you pick the seats...

Quoting brilondon (Reply 35):
It is totally their fault. They were the ones that were in charge of moving the aircraft into position, there for it was the people who were moving the plane who were the ground cre

If - as reported - one aircraft was parked and the other was being parked at the gate - it was the pilots moving the aircraft, not the ground crew.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: JoePatroni707
Posted 2013-07-04 07:45:28 and read 4136 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 40):
If - as reported - one aircraft was parked and the other was being parked at the gate - it was the pilots moving the aircraft, not the ground crew.

If the aircraft was being positioned at the gate and was arriving from the hangar, it was maintenance that would have been parking the aircraft. Now if it was under tow with a Goldhoffer or taxi is unknown. If it was a live flight arrival it would have been the pilots.

Quoting gazzadon (Reply 39):
Going by the picture it looks to low for a 757 but ideal for a 738.

It was a 757, I guarantee it 1000%.

Quoting comairguycvg (Reply 31):
Seems like that's where the fail occurred.

I am glad you are an expert in this field to make such a statement, with out all the facts to make a blame like that is purely ignorant on your part.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 35):
t is totally their fault. They were the ones that were in charge of moving the aircraft into position, there for it was the people who were moving the plane who were the ground crew.

Again, without all the facts you cannot make such a statement. It could have been a contributing factor but since you did not conduct the investigation or are privy to the investigation you cannot place blame.

I have seen very similar incidents and after reviewing all the FACTS that were brought out in the investigation the ground crews were found to be not at fault.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-04 08:06:03 and read 4066 times.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 41):
Again, without all the facts you cannot make such a statement. It could have been a contributing factor but since you did not conduct the investigation or are privy to the investigation you cannot place blame.

I have seen very similar incidents and after reviewing all the FACTS that were brought out in the investigation the ground crews were found to be not at fault.

Well give a scenario where a towed aircraft hitting a parked aircraft is not the fault of the ground crew that was moving the aircraft. I give any regular vehicle accident. If you hit a parked car it is your fault no matter what you use as your defense, you are still responsible for the aircraft that is moving. You need to make sure you can get into the area that you need to and if you can't you don't. That is just the way it is.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-04 09:15:01 and read 3846 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 37):
I'm not sure that's a B757 & many of us missed the headline

Its was a 757 -- N173AN

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: comairguycvg
Posted 2013-07-04 12:04:53 and read 3545 times.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 41):
I am glad you are an expert in this field to make such a statement



Well you know what, being an aviation ground crewman for 20 years at various airports and included the flight decks of 3 aircraft carriers and a few bases, so a total of 14 "airports" I've worked at....no I guess I have no clue about aircraft movement. But no, I don't have all the facts. I'm just saying that it seems unnatural to have no wing walkers as an aircraft is coming into the gate. Everywhere I've been always has wing walkers in the gate area. But I guess that's how JFK rolls.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-07-04 17:07:44 and read 3181 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 38):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 43):

     

EK8413

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-04 17:35:53 and read 3083 times.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 20):
No, JFK uses a DGS system like in MIA and DFW, no wing walkers or guide man needed to park an aircraft

In that case, the failure may have been a systemic one in doing away with a wingwalker.

Then again, when that AR 343 and AF 77W shook hands at MIA, didn't they have wingwalkers?

Quoting crownvic (Reply 29):
Really airbazar? Then who's fault is it? Surely this has nothing to do with the quality of workers the airlines are hiring these days? OK, you can blame the airlines for the pay they offer, but whether a ground handler makes $10K/yr or $100K/yr, it is their responsibility, that a/c do not hit each other. Maybe you do not pay for your airline tickets, but I do and every time this happens, paying passengers are paying for these careless errors through higher ticket costs, because of employee negligence. We live way too much in a society that does not want to take the blame for anything anymore and wants to point fingers at everyone else. These accidents are inexcusable.

AA's been itching to outsource its ground handling positions, so I can't say things will necessarily get any better. On the bright side, your ticket costs will probably stay about the same since the higher costs due to accidents will be offset by the lower costs of the employees to begin with.

Topic: RE: AA 77W And 757 Bump At JFK (photo)
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2013-07-04 19:15:57 and read 2880 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 46):
AA's been itching to outsource its ground handling positions, so I can't say things will necessarily get any better. On the bright side, your ticket costs will probably stay about the same since the higher costs due to accidents will be offset by the lower costs of the employees to begin with.

Truth be told, I think most airlines see their employee's as a liability and if they could get rid of them tomorrow they would. They consider any employee earning more that what Taco Bell pays as too much, hence the technology push to automate as many processes and remove the human element where possible. I don't think they see the difference between towing a 250 million dollar airplane and serving a 1 dollar taco.


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