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Topic: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: D L X
Posted 2013-07-02 06:17:27 and read 22368 times.

http://www.nbcnews.com/travel/horrif...-avoid-nearby-skydiving-6C10512258

Interviewed are a mother and two daughters, 19 and 10, the 10 year old being quoted as saying "felt like we were falling, we were going to hit the ground and die."

Obviously, sensationalism strikes again. But did this plane really dive 1600 feet? And would that actually cause everyone on the plane to erupt in screaming as one passenger was quoted?

(And how did the media find this person anyway, if the plane continued uneventfully to its destination? Why would the media have even known that this had happened?)

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-07-02 06:26:31 and read 22331 times.

If the flight was NKS313 on the 30th, Flight Aware does show the plane being at 14,000 dropping to 12,800 and then continuing the climb within a minute or two.

What's odd about the story is not the dive, or the skydiving plane, or the TCAS warning or the screaming passengers. What's odd is that the captain told the passengers that there was a problem with the flight controls.

[Edited 2013-07-02 06:34:15]

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-07-02 06:29:02 and read 22270 times.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Interviewed are a mother and two daughters, 19 and 10, the 10 year old being quoted as saying "felt like we were falling, we were going to hit the ground and die."

To be honest, if it was as sudden and unexpected as it sounds, I probably might have thought the same! But this is just the kind of quote the media loves, of course.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Obviously, sensationalism strikes again. But did this plane really dive 1600 feet? And would that actually cause everyone on the plane to erupt in screaming as one passenger was quoted?

Without the facts, I'd say that in an emergency avoidance maneuver the aircaft could have easily dropped 1600 feet in just a few seconds! And that is certainly far enough to scare the daylights out of anybody onboard, especially when performed without any notice. As always, thankfully this ended well for those on the NK flight as well as the skydivers!

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: william
Posted 2013-07-02 06:32:53 and read 22199 times.

It was a near miss avoidance manuever.

http://news.yahoo.com/faa-probes-close-call-spirit-231651770.html

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-07-02 06:33:23 and read 22185 times.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
And how did the media find this person anyway, if the plane continued uneventfully to its destination? Why would the media have even known that this had happened?

The story and similar ones distributed by AP in the Dallas media, indicate the one family called the media.

DFW-bound-Spirit-jet-small-plane-213924121.html" target="_blank">http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/FAA-p...rit-jet-small-plane-213924121.html

Probably the mother called her husband while enroute, and he found a reporter to meet the family as they arrived at DFW. There is also the possibility that the story only originated when the family called new media outlets after arriving at DFW, maybe trying to find out more information about the 'incident'. But sounds like publicity seeking to me.

I have yet to see any follow-up stories where someone interviewed the family, or comments from any other passengers.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
But did this plane really dive 1600 feet? And would that actually cause everyone on the plane to erupt in screaming as one passenger was quoted?

It was a TCAS Alert, and the pilots descended from 14,400 to 12,800 feet rather quickly. Probably at least 3,000 FPM descent - for 30 seconds. A noticeable, steep descent, in the middle of the climb phase of the flight.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: D L X
Posted 2013-07-02 06:40:57 and read 22042 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 1):
What's odd is that the captain told the passengers that there was a problem with the flight controls.

That would be odd, but I simply do not believe that is what the captain said. It just seems way too plausible that the captain said something like "air traffic control" and the interviewed passenger thought she heard "flight controls"

Quoting richierich (Reply 2):
But this is just the kind of quote the media loves, of course.

Of course it is. Pretty troublesome that they were willing to go get their money quote from a ten year old.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
The story and similar ones distributed by AP in the Dallas media, indicate the one family called the media.

Makes sense. I'm certain that the airline didn't call them.

So, what is there for the FAA to investigate?

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-02 06:59:08 and read 21820 times.

Oh, this was Spirit. From the title, I thought NBC was reporting on a North Korean plane and wondering why they'd be doing so!

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-07-02 07:06:17 and read 21689 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
...NBC was reporting on a North Korean plane...

It's their new "long range missile"   

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-07-02 07:15:08 and read 21570 times.

TCAS maneuvers and alerts are not designed to put people on the ceiling. Even if he got an "INCREASE DESCENT" resolution advisory it is not programmed to command that amount of g-forces to throw people around.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-07-02 07:17:59 and read 21544 times.

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):
So, what is there for the FAA to investigate?

The FAA looks at TCAS alerts which pilots report. The situation might count as a 'near miss' in the FAA database. And that is the end of it. No 'investigation'. The mother wants to know who 'dropped the ball' - well it doesn't look like anyone made any errors in this incident.

The VFR chart for the area shows a parachute area at that location. Though in my opinion - 14,400 and 12,800 feet are pretty high for a 'climbing skydiving plane'.

[Edited 2013-07-02 07:21:31]

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: D L X
Posted 2013-07-02 07:44:51 and read 21252 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
The mother wants to know who 'dropped the ball'

I think the 19 year old wants to know who dropped the ball. (So we better find out.)

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: C680
Posted 2013-07-02 07:56:30 and read 21109 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
Even if he got an "INCREASE DESCENT" resolution advisory it is not programmed to command that amount of g-forces to throw people around.

True, but that doesn't mean the pilot did not over compensate. If he had a healthy rate of climb, going into a quick dive could produce a semi "Vomit Comet" experience. I've had to do it before and it really leaves a mess in the back of the plane.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
The VFR chart for the area shows a parachute area at that location. Though in my opinion - 14,400 and 12,800 feet are pretty high for a 'climbing skydiving plane'.

That does seem high. I'm not the type of guy who likes to jump out of a perfectly good airplane, but I do know that we all get a little VFR lazy after 10,000 and start accelerating - you just don't expect as much VFR traffic as you get higher.

If the pilot got an RA over 10,000 without a heads up from ATC, in his surprise he may have over-reacted a bit.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-02 09:01:22 and read 20620 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
Though in my opinion - 14,400 and 12,800 feet are pretty high for a 'climbing skydiving plane'

People regularly parachute from 13k. 14+ sounds odd though.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: cactus739
Posted 2013-07-02 09:13:00 and read 20493 times.

"Dunnabeck added that overhead luggage bins opened, drinks spilled and flight attendants hit their heads during the dive"

Who has a drink by the time a plane ever gets to 14,000 feet?

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-07-02 09:28:44 and read 20033 times.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 13):
Who has a drink by the time a plane ever gets to 14,000 feet?

Airlines that charge must want to hurry up and start selling...  

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-07-02 09:36:29 and read 19820 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
The VFR chart for the area shows a parachute area at that location. Though in my opinion - 14,400 and 12,800 feet are pretty high for a 'climbing skydiving plane'.
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 12):
People regularly parachute from 13k. 14+ sounds odd though.

I routinely jumped from 14k (and often enough just over but don't tell anyone). 12.5k to 14k oxygen is not required, as I understand it, as long as your flight is less than 30min. So you can do 14k just fine. The pilots however always do have oxygen available if needed though.

Tugg

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: flymia
Posted 2013-07-02 10:06:11 and read 19027 times.

With zero ATC warning I rather have my pilot over compensate then try to worry about the comfort of the passengers. The airliner can take the maneuver that's all that matters to me.

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
I routinely jumped from 14k (and often enough just over but don't tell anyone). 12.5k to 14k oxygen is not required, as I understand it, as long as your flight is less than 30min. So you can do 14k just fine. The pilots however always do have oxygen available if needed though.

I figured 13K or so would be fine. I was out in Utah a few months ago up at 12,000 feet. If I can hike a mountain that high don't see why a person could not jump from a plane at not much higher.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: tomassjc
Posted 2013-07-02 10:07:27 and read 19032 times.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 13):
Who has a drink by the time a plane ever gets to 14,000 feet?


BYOB perhaps? A lot of folks bring their own drinks and food on anymore.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Obviously, sensationalism strikes again. But did this plane really dive 1600 feet? And would that actually cause everyone on the plane to erupt in screaming as one passenger was quoted?


This surprises me as well, since I thought Spirit charged a fee for screaming?
  

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: rcair1
Posted 2013-07-02 10:25:08 and read 18563 times.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 13):
Who has a drink by the time a plane ever gets to 14,000 feet?

Those who brought them onbaord

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: roswell41
Posted 2013-07-02 10:30:52 and read 18398 times.

It must be a slow news day for the mainstream media to be reporting on a TCAS RA. The system worked as advertised and the people made it safely to their destination. Yawn.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: piedmont727
Posted 2013-07-02 10:33:24 and read 18342 times.

My news station Reported that It was from Smaller Cessna 208 was climbing into there path for skydiving purposes , the FAA reported a 400 Vertical feet seperation and were 1.6 Miles apart

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-02 11:41:56 and read 16847 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
TCAS maneuvers and alerts are not designed to put people on the ceiling. Even if he got an "INCREASE DESCENT" resolution advisory it is not programmed to command that amount of g-forces to throw people around.

As mentioned earlier, the captain's priority was probably avoiding a collision, since a passenger who can complain about the dive is a passenger who was not killed.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 13):
Airlines that charge must want to hurry up and start selling...

Spirit generally starts selling food for purchase as soon as the 10,000 feet chime goes off. I'm sure Mr. Baldanza will start stocking aspirin on board for $10 a pop as the skies get even more crowded...   

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-07-02 11:55:24 and read 16579 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 21):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
TCAS maneuvers and alerts are not designed to put people on the ceiling. Even if he got an "INCREASE DESCENT" resolution advisory it is not programmed to command that amount of g-forces to throw people around.

As mentioned earlier, the captain's priority was probably avoiding a collision, since a passenger who can complain about the dive is a passenger who was not killed.

I don't know the circumstances of this particular incident, but a TCAS RA is programed to give safe separation and does not require that kind of aggressive G-forces.

Airbus' (and McDonnell Douglas) visual component of RA guidance is showing the little red and green on the VSI. Boeing shows the red trapezoid thingy on the Primary Flight Display, which gives the crew far better guidance of how to fly the RA and ensure safe separation, without throwing people to the ceiling.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-07-02 12:22:00 and read 16024 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 1):
problem with the flight controls

No, that is not what he said, according to two of the articles. He reportedly said it was a "Flight Control Issue". This could pertain to either ATC or the aircraft flight controls--they are not the same. Perhaps a poor choice of words under the circumstances though.

From one of the articles:

"Every person on that plane was screaming. We thought we were going down."

Pretty serious event if the pilots were screaming too! Probably a bit overstated perhaps?

"Dunnabeck said the plunge caused overhead luggage bins to spill open, drinks to spill and flight attendants to bump their heads."

Open bins and spilling luggage is something that probably needs to be addressed by aircraft certification. Injured flight attendants should have made this an Incident. Probably a bit overstated again.

"Two of them complained of pain and asked for medicine, sitting down while nonworking flight attendants stepped up to help."

If the Flight Attendants functioned at a decreased capacity because of the situation, it's an Incident.

The comment about the GA aircraft is correct. From what was said, he had the responsibility to see and avoid. He did!

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-07-02 12:37:16 and read 15700 times.

My armchair perspective is that the sudden transition from climbing to decent is what caused the largest "drop" feeling. You can feel like you're dropping when the rate of climb is reduced and when you level off... so I'd imagine that actually transitioning from climb to descent quickly would put butterflies in everyones stomach.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: winstonlegthigh
Posted 2013-07-02 12:38:45 and read 16091 times.

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):
Of course it is. Pretty troublesome that they were willing to go get their money quote from a ten year old.

Troubling indeed, but if media coverage of the Sandy Hook and Boston Marathon occurrences (especially the former) indicate anything, it's that media types love getting their material from little kids. It's disgusting. Afterwards, the very people who were shoving microphones and cameras into these kids' faces and making them relive the event in question lament about how these are kids, and they shouldn't have to experience such things at their age. This is typically followed by the revelation that they themselves have children of a similar age at home.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: OllieJolly
Posted 2013-07-02 12:57:19 and read 15657 times.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 24):
...so I'd imagine that actually transitioning from climb to descent quickly would put butterflies in everyones stomach.

Exactly.
I can understand some passengers being distressed, however for there to be a news article about this is a bit over the top.
Okay fair enough they were scared because they felt like they were suddenly dropping with no warning, but obviously in such an event the pilots wouldn't have time to announce what was about to happen.

Better to wait until it's over and then clear things up.. and it sounds like this lady misheard what the captain said.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-02 13:21:51 and read 15466 times.

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 13):
Who has a drink by the time a plane ever gets to 14,000 feet?

They can start the drink service once the flight is over 10,000 feet. It is a pure revenue source that NK loves to exploit just like charging for carryon luggage.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 23):
No, that is not what he said, according to two of the articles. He reportedly said it was a "Flight Control Issue". This could pertain to either ATC or the aircraft flight controls--they are not the same. Perhaps a poor choice of words under the circumstances though.

From one of the articles:

"Every person on that plane was screaming. We thought we were going down."

Pretty serious event if the pilots were screaming too! Probably a bit overstated perhaps?

"Dunnabeck said the plunge caused overhead luggage bins to spill open, drinks to spill and flight attendants to bump their heads."

Open bins and spilling luggage is something that probably needs to be addressed by aircraft certification. Injured flight attendants should have made this an Incident. Probably a bit overstated again.

I doubt that it was over stated with that kind of incident. Most people who fly NK are not seasoned travelers and don't realize what is happening. People who are seasoned travelers don't travel on NK.

Quoting winstonlegthigh (Reply 25):

Troubling indeed, but if media coverage of the Sandy Hook and Boston Marathon occurrences (especially the former) indicate anything, it's that media types love getting their material from little kids. It's disgusting. Afterwards, the very people who were shoving microphones and cameras into these kids' faces and making them relive the event in question lament about how these are kids, and they shouldn't have to experience such things at their age. This is typically followed by the revelation that they themselves have children of a similar age at home.

It was mentioned on the news in London today about this incident and I for one found it to be amusing that they always go to the most stupid and unintelligent of the crowd. Why oh why would you interview children when you need a quote. I know what a teenager would say, "it was rully rully scary and I thought I was going to die."

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2013-07-02 13:27:01 and read 15309 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 27):
Why oh why would you interview children when you need a quote. I know what a teenager would say, "it was rully rully scary and I thought I was going to die."

Why report fact from someone who is knowledgeable about such things when they can sensationalize a story for ratings?

This whole thing sounds like a response to an RA that has been blown completely out of proportion.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: BAC111
Posted 2013-07-02 14:47:18 and read 13849 times.

Yes, I think I would've been somewhere btwn very concerned and wetting my pants had I been aboard this flight.

But, TCAS is a fantastic innovation that has saved many lives.

Best part is that all of the Spirit passengers are alive to tell their tale. Amen.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-02 14:53:15 and read 13731 times.

Quoting BAC111 (Reply 29):
But, TCAS is a fantastic innovation that has saved many lives.

The other aircraft did not carry any type of equipment that would have been useful for TCAS. It was using VFR.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-07-02 14:56:44 and read 13684 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 30):
Quoting BAC111 (Reply 29):
But, TCAS is a fantastic innovation that has saved many lives.

The other aircraft did not carry any type of equipment that would have been useful for TCAS. It was using VFR.

The other aircraft most certainly did have equipment that was useful for TCAS. It has a Transponder that allowed NK's TCAS to "see" it and do and command an uncoordinated Resolution Advisory.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-07-02 15:04:24 and read 13528 times.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 23):

I agree that it was a very poor choice of words. I, for one, have never referred to ATC as "flight control" nor have I heard any other pilot refer to ATC as "flight control".

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2013-07-02 15:08:18 and read 13543 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 32):

I havve heard the words "flight controllers" to be used when generally speaking of ATC. Delta pilot trying to speak plainly without the jargon.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: D L X
Posted 2013-07-02 15:58:57 and read 12484 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 32):
Quoting copter808 (Reply 23):

I agree that it was a very poor choice of words. I, for one, have never referred to ATC as "flight control" nor have I heard any other pilot refer to ATC as "flight control".

I think we shouldn't assume these witnesses have correctly quoted the pilots.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-07-02 16:50:39 and read 11716 times.

FlightAware showed a descent of 860 fpm.

With the sensationalism factor of the story I wonder if Mr. Baldanza is going to charge a carpet cleaning fee.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-07-02 16:55:03 and read 11647 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 35):
FlightAware showed a descent of 860 fpm.

That's about correct for a TCAS DESCEND or INCREASE DESCENT RA, isn't it?

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-07-02 16:59:20 and read 11555 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 35):
FlightAware showed a descent of 860 fpm.

As other have mentioned what the total value change between the ascent and then the descent?

And I assume it happened rather quickly (less than 10-15 seconds?) so what would the "effective" rate of change have been?

Just curious.

Tugg

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: andrefranca
Posted 2013-07-02 17:00:53 and read 11663 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 27):
People who are seasoned travelers don't travel on NK.

NOT AT ALL! I've flown on 41 airlines, and I can tell you I will avoid NK in the future due to my OWN bad experience with them, I was on a flight from STT to FLL this may, firstly the cpt said, we'd be a "little" delayed due paperwork, fine! then we are finally heading to the threshold, when we were taking off he aborts the take off! and SHOUTS on the PA, "Stay seated stay seated stay seated", we stayed a few minutes in the middle of the runway, then I saw the AA 757 on the other side of the runway, then I though maybe we were going to take off at the same time? then back to gate, it was a computer glitch, right call the maintenance, he didn't know to explain what was going on and they all seemed lost, but after 4 hours (a bottle of water was offered at least), we finally made to FLL.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-07-02 17:26:18 and read 11211 times.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 38):
NOT AT ALL! I've flown on 41 airlines, and I can tell you I will avoid NK in the future due to my OWN bad experience

I wouldn't touch several of those airlines with a ten-foot-pole. Give me AS anytime.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2013-07-02 17:45:32 and read 10899 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 37):
And I assume it happened rather quickly (less than 10-15 seconds?) so what would the "effective" rate of change have been?


It is hard to say what the effective rate of change would have been in this case.

What I recall from our training is that when the TCAS commands a Resolution Advisory (RA) we have 5 seconds to assess and respond to the initial command. Should a secondary command be issued we have 2 seconds to respond to that command. Depending on the phase of flight prior to the RA and what happens with the RA itself, it can be an uncomfortable maneuver especially for those not used to flying, but certainly not "unsafe" nor as death-defying as the media is making it out to be in this case.

[Edited 2013-07-02 17:47:54]

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-02 21:46:18 and read 7977 times.

Screaming pax aren't limited to NK.

I was on the DL shuttle years ago coming back to LGA in a 727. Smooth approach south over Jamaica Bay, just about to that little pier and the engines spool up, nose goes up, gear comes up and we're off in a pretty-steep climb.

Turns out the CPT saw the doors open on the firehouse and some equipment start to roll. He wasn't willing to take the chance that one or more trucks might not hold short of our runway, so he went around.

Behind me was a somewhat intoxicated group of 25 or so Bell System employees who had been kind of whooping it up much of the flight. When the pilot initiated the maneuver, there was a cacophony of startled noises, a few screams, and a lot of "We gonna die!!!!" coming from the back of the plane. It kept up until we levelled off, despite a lot of shushing from other passengers, and then there was a bunch of loud denunciations of the captain's explanation when he finally came on to explain what was happening. The gang behind me was convinced he was lying and the group was going to tell all of us about it. Why anybody would expect his explanation to be anything other than accurate was beyond me -- I thought it was a pretty-detailed story that he didn't have to tell us -- I mean, what did they think happened?

So even on the highest-average-revenue-per-flight-minute service at the time, you get the same thing. It's just ignorance. And it's everywhere.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: beechtobus
Posted 2013-07-02 21:52:36 and read 7913 times.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 38):

" when we were taking off he aborts the take off! and SHOUTS on the PA, "Stay seated stay seated stay seated", we stayed a few minutes in the middle of the runway"

Standard operating procedure at any airline. Since the flight attendants have no clue necessarily what the abort was for (could be a simple wind shear alert, an uncontained fire, or anything in between), this call, or conversely, the " evacuate evacuate evacuate" call advises them, and the passengers to a degree, wheather they need to stay put or evacuate.

[Edited 2013-07-02 21:57:14]

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-07-02 22:35:27 and read 7469 times.

And the pilots probably wanted to make sure that no passengers started a self evacuation after they stopped. Usually someone always gets a sprained or broken something during an evacuation.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-02 22:48:56 and read 7352 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 27):
I doubt that it was over stated with that kind of incident. Most people who fly NK are not seasoned travelers and don't realize what is happening. People who are seasoned travelers don't travel on NK.

Sure they do! I can only afford to be a seasoned traveler because I fly NK.

(okay, so also because I work in the industry)

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-07-03 18:24:35 and read 3282 times.

Here is Skydive Tecumseh's Response

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationw...021323199_apusspiritclosecall.html

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: aklrno
Posted 2013-07-03 18:43:28 and read 3229 times.

Maybe inexperienced passengers are just more common this time of year, so any deviation from normal is very scary. I've been in planes that have the bottom drop out for a second or two, and seen glasses drop faster than their contents resulting in liquids flying about, and I've seen bins open and things fall out. Most experienced travelers just deal with it.

10 days ago I was on a 777 leaving LAX when a poorly closed bin fell open on the takeoff run. The guys on that side managed to get it closed, but no screaming. Monday I was flying into RNO and saw storm cells directly over the airport. We went for a nice 10-15 minute excursion to Fallon and Pyramid Lake, a few bumps en route. Lining up for final we had a couple more bumps then some gusts that had the 737 wallowing. By then there were screams, and at least one person in my area was throwing up. Within 1 mile of touchdown it was smooth, and the landing was perfect. Nonetheless there was relieved applause and talk of nearly crashing from some passengers. I thought it was an easy day landing in Reno.

We just have to understand that not everyone has been through worse, or understand that the pilots on most airlines are very, very good at what they do.

And one more thing. I don't think everyone was screaming, but a few loud ones may make it seem that way.

[Edited 2013-07-03 18:44:39]

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-07-04 07:05:56 and read 2883 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 27):
People who are seasoned travelers don't travel on NK.

Really?
I don't care for Spirit much myself and I highly dislike their model, but you can't make a blanket statement like that. There are many "seasoned" travelers who fly on NK for the same reason many first time fliers get suckered in: the cheap fares.

My father is a relatively seasoned flier who used to regularly fly NK from BOS-MYR, Myrtle Beach being the closest major airport to where my folks had a second home (now their full time home.) He didn't love the airline at all but he knew what he was getting. Spirit was also the only airline that flew this route directly - other airlines could have got him there via CLT or ATL of course, but he wanted a cheap, quick and easy direct flight.

My father was "seasoned" enough to play along with NK. In fact, I used to joke he was their worst kind of customer. He would buy his tickets well in advance and choose flights that had the rock bottom fares. He would not buy any of their additional services or fees: no advanced seat selection, no baggage, no food/drinks, etc. Just a cheap and cheerful seat using their $5 club to his advantage when he could, usually ignoring the low-brow gimmicks on their website.

In all the flights with them, it has to be said that NOT ONE was cancelled. Only a few were late, usually due to weather in either Boston or NK's hub in FLL. So the bottom line is that as long as you know what to expect, Spirit serves a purpose. Cheap air transportation. Greyhound of the skies. Start adding on extras and you might as well fly somebody else, even if it means connecting!  

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-04 10:04:54 and read 2693 times.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 38):
I was on a flight from STT to FLL this may, firstly the cpt said, we'd be a "little" delayed due paperwork, fine! then we are finally heading to the threshold, when we were taking off he aborts the take off! and SHOUTS on the PA, "Stay seated stay seated stay seated", we stayed a few minutes in the middle of the runway,

Sounds like the pilot handled the situation properly and expertly.

What should he have done differently, my armchair expert?

Take off anyway in the face of a warning? Magically make the aircraft not have a warning? Take it on faith that pax won't start abandoning the a/c on the runway? (BTW, as others have mentioned, it's going to be in their FAA-approved procedures to inform the cabin whether to stay seated, evacuate, or something else.)

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: passedv1
Posted 2013-07-04 17:27:09 and read 2442 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 22):

TCAS commands a vertical speed. It's up to the pilot to get it to the commanded rate fast or slow. I think most pilots err on the fast side.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-07-05 19:10:48 and read 2018 times.

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 49):
TCAS commands a vertical speed. It's up to the pilot to get it to the commanded rate fast or slow. I think most pilots err on the fast side.

Could be due to the lag in the VSI indicator.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-07-05 20:44:44 and read 1913 times.

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 49):
TCAS commands a vertical speed. It's up to the pilot to get it to the commanded rate fast or slow. I think most pilots err on the fast side.

Yep, that's kind of what I was saying. Boeing (and I think that design was given to Gulfstream also) puts a red trapezoid on the artificial horizon on the PFD that clearly tells the crew what vertical speed to be above and below. In addition, putting a red band on the VSI to on the PFD to tell the crew what area to stay out of, is optional on some models (I think it is baseline on the 787). This is clear and unambiguous guidance as to what V/S the crew should stay above or below.

The other manufactures use a small red and green band on the VSI only which is far less intuitive than the big red trapezoid on the artificial horizon.

Topic: RE: NBC: NK Jet Dives 1600' "horrifying" Passengers
Username: tribird1011
Posted 2013-07-06 00:53:22 and read 1752 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 50):
Could be due to the lag in the VSI indicator

That's generally why they use IVSI's now...  

(do any "large" airliners even use plain old VSI's anymore?) (--"large" = Dash 8's and above)


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