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Topic: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: RP TPA
Posted 2013-05-27 07:53:00 and read 22625 times.

Greetings all,

Air Canada had announced earlier this year that they will be acquiring 5 new 777-300er's, to be configured in a high-density seating format (36 Exec First, 24 Premium Economy, 398 coach). So far, they have only said they will be using them on the YUL-CDG (summer only), and YYZ-MUC (October) routes. Besides those routes, any ideas as to where the aircraft will be used?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-05-27 08:17:45 and read 22538 times.

Perhaps some Asian destinations from YVR.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-05-27 08:19:32 and read 22527 times.

Have they already received these a/c or not yet?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-05-27 08:29:29 and read 22463 times.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 2):
Have they already received these a/c or not yet?

Quote:

"In addition to two Boeing 777-300ER aircraft previously announced that will be delivered in June and August 2013, Air Canada today announced that it will add three new Boeing 777-300ER aircraft to be delivered in November and December 2013 and February 2014."

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=621

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: GCT64
Posted 2013-05-27 13:15:59 and read 21851 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 3):
Quoting LY777 (Reply 2):
Have they already received these a/c or not yet?
Quote:
"In addition to two Boeing 777-300ER aircraft previously announced that will be delivered in June and August 2013

C-FIVW f/n 743 made its first flight on 16 May.

I hope this configuration isn't going to be used on AC flights from LHR, it will definitely downgrade the experience. I've just flown in Y on AC 77Ws LHR-YVR-LHR and I was on YYZ-NRT earlier in the year and it's a good experience, much better than most, that I hope they will maintain rather than join the "rush to the bottom" along with everyone else.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Boeing744
Posted 2013-05-27 14:06:00 and read 21650 times.

Does AF use their higher-density Indian Ocean 77W from CDG-YUL? Or is it the 3-3-3 configuration?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-27 14:13:43 and read 21592 times.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
Does AF use their higher-density Indian Ocean 77W from CDG-YUL? Or is it the 3-3-3 configuration?

All AF 777s, both -200ER and -300ER, are 10-abreast (3-4-3) in Y class. Some have fewer premium class seats but the configuration in Y class is the same on all and, like all 10-abreast 777s, best avoided.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-05-27 14:52:44 and read 21439 times.

Maybe S. America....esp during World Cup and Olympics.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: runway23
Posted 2013-05-27 15:01:55 and read 21418 times.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
Does AF use their higher-density Indian Ocean 77W from CDG-YUL? Or is it the 3-3-3 configuration?

It's worse than that. YUL was the first destination that AF sent 3-4-3 non-COI aircraft on to begin with.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-05-27 15:19:27 and read 21344 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
Does AF use their higher-density Indian Ocean 77W from CDG-YUL? Or is it the 3-3-3 configuration?

All AF 777s, both -200ER and -300ER, are 10-abreast (3-4-3) in Y class. Some have fewer premium class seats but the configuration in Y class is the same on all and, like all 10-abreast 777s, best avoided

Agreed. AF has really gone down further than I thought they could with those aircraft. I avoid AF altogether due to the very poor experience.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: YLWbased
Posted 2013-05-27 23:01:43 and read 18774 times.

Launch YYZ-HKG anyone?

YLWbased

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: BritMidFokker
Posted 2013-05-27 23:46:39 and read 18500 times.

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 10):
Launch YYZ-HKG anyone?

AC already fly YYZ-HKG daily with the 77L.

I personally doubt these high density 777's will come to any currently served Asian destinations.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-05-28 03:11:35 and read 17335 times.

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 10):

Launch YYZ-HKG anyone?

I don't think that they will be going to destinations in Asia from YYZ. More than likely the newly configured 77Ws will be going to Europe from Montreal and Toronto.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-05-28 06:27:33 and read 15925 times.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 4):
I hope this configuration isn't going to be used on AC flights from LHR

It's sort of inevitable, especially on YYZ-LHR. That route is 5x daily in summer. Makes sense to use a high density aircraft on the route.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-05-28 07:59:22 and read 15193 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 13):
It's sort of inevitable, especially on YYZ-LHR. That route is 5x daily in summer. Makes sense to use a high density aircraft on the route.

Interestingly, of the 5x daily YYZLHR flights this summer, only one of them is on a 77W. The rest are all 3x 763s plus 1x 77L.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: mtbga
Posted 2013-05-28 08:39:13 and read 15077 times.

I have heard YYZ HKG (yes--of course from a friend of a friend).

I can't imagine doing 15 hours in such a high density but of course if the price is right!

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2013-05-28 16:11:20 and read 14703 times.

I recently did SYD-BKK-SYD on a high density Emirates 777-300ER. 9 hours was long enough on a cramped unit like that, I agree, 15 hours would be too much. Coming back from LHR on an SQ A380 is a far superior experience to the cramped 777W. For a quick hop like YYZ-LHR then it is probably fine

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-29 07:42:52 and read 14124 times.

Airlines definitely want to have 10 abreast in Y on the B777, it makes sense. But it is not a matter of would they like to? It's more ... can they? And the biggest deciding factor is competition, and price sensitivity.

That is why AC's high density B777 is being introduced on YUL-CDG. It is a hugely price sensitive market and the competition (AF and TS) is equally as shitty! Last summer AC operated the A330 (with 8 abreast vs TS with 9 abreast) and the B777 (with 9 abreast vs AF with 10 abreast). (AF found the A380, while a very comfortable machine is not suited to that market with its large F and J cabins.)

AC could not charge 1 dollar more than the competition, regardless how of comfortable the ride. So ... the passenger has chosen a cheap seat over a comfortable one. Enjoy it!

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 10):
Launch YYZ-HKG anyone?
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 13):
It's sort of inevitable, especially on YYZ-LHR

I would be very surprised to see it on these markets, simply because there would be confusion with the product already being offered, and, while somewhat price sensitive, the competition, CX and BA, is pretty up-market!

AC has said the high density B777 will not fly to Asia right away, and if so, only on new markets. So, speculate away,

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: AirNovaBAe146
Posted 2013-05-29 08:48:32 and read 13996 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
AC has said the high density B777 will not fly to Asia right away, and if so, only on new markets. So, speculate away,

What about India? A high-density B77W is the right airplane for DEL or BOM. If the ME3 (EK, EY, QR) can transport huge numbers of price-sensitive VFR pax from North America to India via the Gulf, then AC should be able to make it work non-stop from YYZ or YVR. The numerous other aircraft and routings AC has tried to India have never been right, because of a combination of funky routings (via Europe) or the wrong aircraft (such as the A345). Now that AC does have the right machine for the job, I hope to see them headed back to India within a couple years.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-05-29 08:53:05 and read 13972 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
That is why AC's high density B777 is being introduced on YUL-CDG. It is a hugely price sensitive market and the competition (AF and TS) is equally as shitty! Last summer AC operated the A330 (with 8 abreast vs TS with 9 abreast) and the B777 (with 9 abreast vs AF with 10 abreast). (AF found the A380, while a very comfortable machine is not suited to that market with its large F and J cabins.)

i'm booked on YUL-CDG with AC on June 4, (return 9 days later). The only reason why I chose AC is because of the 9 abreast seating in Y vs 10 with AF.

When i booked 2 weeks ago, AC and AF had the same fare, to the cent ! TS was a bit cheaper, but not worth the hassle of T3 at CDG.

I had a look a few days ago, AC had gone up by 200$ while AF hadn't moved !

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-29 14:45:57 and read 13658 times.

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 18):
What about India? A high-density B77W is the right airplane for DEL or BOM. If the ME3 (EK, EY, QR) can transport huge numbers of price-sensitive VFR pax from North America to India via the Gulf, then AC should be able to make it work non-stop from YYZ or YVR.

Even the new AC 77Ws have too many premium seats for the Canada-India market.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Boeing744
Posted 2013-05-29 14:54:19 and read 13625 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 19):
i'm booked on YUL-CDG with AC on June 4, (return 9 days later). The only reason why I chose AC is because of the 9 abreast seating in Y vs 10 with AF.

When i booked 2 weeks ago, AC and AF had the same fare, to the cent ! TS was a bit cheaper, but not worth the hassle of T3 at CDG.

I had a look a few days ago, AC had gone up by 200$ while AF hadn't moved !

When I was looking at the route for August, AC was by far the highest, followed by AF, then TS, and finally Corsair, which I chose in the end. I am a little worried I'll have to have a leg amputated after their extreme-high density seats, but the price was right ($750 round trip, and that included my TGVAir ticket!).

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-29 15:24:23 and read 13560 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
AC could not charge 1 dollar more than the competition, regardless how of comfortable the ride. So ... the passenger has chosen a cheap seat over a comfortable one. Enjoy it!

Makes it sound as though AC has been sending empty aircraft to CDG while the others were packed to the rafters. I somehow doubt that's true.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
with the product already being offered, and, while somewhat price sensitive, the competition, CX and BA, is pretty up-market!

HKG isn't price sensitive? First time I've heard that.

"Up-market" carriers can command premiums because they provide consistently (and relatively) good service. I don't think anyone who's flown AC over the last few years will not have noticed the steady deterioration of the product across all cabins - international J amenity kits, international Y catering, domestic J catering. In addition, its customer relations are falling apart - the new modus operandi to any shortcoming seems to be a shrug and a polite equivalent of the apathetic teenager experession: "whatever". Oh, and the occassional 5% discount voucher (on base fare only) for enduring an 8 hour flight with non-functioning IFE in J. And so on.

Take, for example, this case:

"John (not his real name) spent more than $50,000 to buy five tickets in executive class for his family to fly from Toronto to Sydney and back over the Christmas holiday period."

"On the flight back to Toronto, they found one of the seats that should have reclined into a bed for sleeping didn’t recline at all."

"Air Canada denied a refund of the premium paid. It offered a $500 discount on a future flight — good for a year — or 20,000 non-status Aeroplan points."

“We are very sorry to have disappointed this customer. However, we believe we have offered fair goodwill compensation in the circumstances,” said spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick."

http://www.thestar.com/business/pers...s_client_dissatisfied_roseman.html

With airlines like CX and BA, you know when things aren't up to scratch, they'll make an effort to make it up to you. I can share any number of personal anecdotes about BA in this regard.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-05-29 19:31:53 and read 13326 times.

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 18):
What about India?

What about it? A low yield VFR market 15 hours away via nonstop flight. Not the best use for any high-capital cost new aircraft, whether 77W or 788.

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 18):
Now that AC does have the right machine for the job, I hope to see them headed back to India within a couple years.
AC could not make India work with ANY aircraft, whether the L15, 742, 343, 345 or 763. The 77W (whether high density ot not) is absolutely the wrong aircraft for such a low yield market.

India appears to be best left unserved by AC. It's a remote low yield market. Business traffic is minimal and the tiny Indo-Canadian community is not large enough to warrant nonstop service (or so the market is dictating).

India is simply not a typical market for Canadian vacations or business traffic, and likely never will be. To COMMENCE such a remote market with the 77W would be folly. To start it at all (with any aircraft) would likely be folly also....

[Edited 2013-05-29 19:42:32]

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-05-29 20:01:18 and read 13286 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 19):
i'm booked on YUL-CDG with AC on June 4, (return 9 days later). The only reason why I chose AC is because of the 9 abreast seating in Y vs 10 with AF.

When i booked 2 weeks ago, AC and AF had the same fare, to the cent ! TS was a bit cheaper, but not worth the hassle of T3 at CDG.

I had a look a few days ago, AC had gone up by 200$ while AF hadn't moved !

Thenoflyzone

So you shop by price when you fly? No matter how cheap AC is don't fly with them. I just returned to my parents home in London, Ont. after flying to China on AC from YYZ and was absolutely disappointed. First, I had booked two tickets from YYZ-PEK in Business class and was looking forward to the flight but when I could not check in on-line like I do when I travel. I then went to the airport and was given boarding passes not for business class but in the economy section and the two seats were not even in the same cabin. I complained that at least they could have found two seats together in the Y class of the aircraft, but was told that they could do nothing about it. I checked, while I was flying in Y-class my e-mails and to my surprise an email was sent to me from AC that I was unable to secure two seats in business class and that I would be seated in Y-class, then they had compensated me by refunding me the difference plus $500 good for travel on AC for the next year, to compensate me for my trouble. This email was sent to me 10 minutes before my flight.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-29 20:41:54 and read 13625 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 24):

Difference between J and full Y or discount Y? How do they determine what the difference is and how it applies? J minus Latitude, Flex or Tango?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-29 21:40:43 and read 13584 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 22):
Makes it sound as though AC has been sending empty aircraft to CDG while the others were packed to the rafters. I somehow doubt that's true.

Nope. Everyone is full, it's a busy market. But ... AF's and TS's full aircraft were higher density, and thus generating more revenue, than AC's lower density (albeit more comfortable) aircraft.

The point I am making is that if more comfort generated a higher yield then it makes sense, but ... we all know that is not the case. And, if more comfort does not generate a higher yield, then why bother? Thus the new high density B777s for markets that can bear such an aircraft.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 22):
With airlines like CX and BA, you know when things aren't up to scratch, they'll make an effort to make it up to you. I can share any number of personal anecdotes about BA in this regard.

We all can. We all have horror stories about just about every airline on the earth. And we all have horror stories about the way they are (mis)handled, by just about every airline on the earth. AC carries 100,000 passengers a day, odds are one or two a month wont be happy.

Interestingly enough, AC has higher J load factors than every international airline coming to Canada! It used to be all but CX, but that milestone was passed last year.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-30 06:29:01 and read 13519 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 22):
With airlines like CX and BA, you know when things aren't up to scratch, they'll make an effort to make it up to you. I can share any number of personal anecdotes about BA in this regard.

You mean like this?

BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice (by raffik May 30 2013 in Civil Aviation)

(It happens at ALL airlines)

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-05-30 11:35:25 and read 13271 times.

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 18):
If the ME3 (EK, EY, QR) can transport huge numbers of price-sensitive VFR pax from North America to India via the Gulf, then AC should be able to make it work non-stop from YYZ or YVR.

Good luck to AC with that. Most Indo-Canadians I know would pick the ME3 (don't forget 9W and TK....my first choice) stopover costing them 5 hours more, but getting them much better service than 14-15 hours in an AC sardine can. Keep in mind that EK sends the A380 to YYZ. And while I'm no fan of EK, that move has without a doubt garnered it a reputation for comfort and service. AC will have a very tough time competing with that.

Many here say India is too low yield for AC. So be it. AC should just keep acting as a feeder for LH. I think the first direct service to India is more likely to come from an Indian carrier serving Canada than vice versa.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-05-30 14:12:43 and read 13096 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 28):
AC will have a very tough time competing with that.

I believe it's even a lost battle, whatever AC tries. They can't match EK et all networks in Asia to feed their flights.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 28):
I think the first direct service to India is more likely to come from an Indian carrier serving Canada than vice versa.

There's already been a direct service before, although for a short time. Even nonstop if I remember correctly. It was flown by Canada 3000.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-30 14:13:47 and read 13090 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice (by raffik May 30 2013 in Civil Aviation)

DIdn't say IRROPs don't happen, but I am willing to bet they got better compensation than the $500 travel voucher (not, it should be noted, cash) that AC offered for a non-reclining $8,000 J seat on a 15 hour flight. Speaking from experience, I've had many occassions where AC has simply refused to recognize EU rules, but then coughs up the money the moment a third-party organization (with the time and energy), gets involved to make them respect it. Why do they change their tune midway, after giving customers the royal runaround? I've been fortunate to only be in that situation once with BA, but it was handled very, very swiftly, with no beating around the bush. Have you ever dealt with AC as a customer? They'll sooner call you a liar than admit that they might have gotten something wrong.

Every airline will screw up. How many will pull a: "We are very sorry to have disappointed this customer. However, we believe we have offered fair goodwill compensation in the circumstances,”? Fair? All I'll say is that the refusal to acknowledge the degree to which a passenger is inconvenienced... is more prevalent at some airlines than others. Why else has CTA told AC to revise its compensation? Don't take my word for it. Try it yourself when you retire.

Incidentally, the reason I bring this case up is not because AC has 'mis'-handled the pax; its quite clear that AC thinks it has handled the situation very well. Its the blatant obliviousness to the inconvenience caused, that stands out. AC isn't trying to fix it (any more than it thinks it has, anyway); it simply doesn't care. Therein lies the difference in ... quality of customer service.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
AC carries 100,000 passengers a day, odds are one or two a month wont be happy.

Actually, no. If you use AC's 0.09% overbooking rate and work with the assumption that half of those result in involuntary denied boarding, you're looking at ~16,000 potentially unhappy passengers. Even if you take only half of that, you're still looking at 8,000 unhappy pax. So somewhere between 650 and 1300 and 2600 won't be happy in any given month. (All of this being said with tongue firmly in cheek)  . In December, I imagine that unhappy crowd will be ridiculously unhappy.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 28):
Many here say India is too low yield for AC. So be it. AC should just keep acting as a feeder for LH. I think the first direct service to India is more likely to come from an Indian carrier serving Canada than vice versa.

Its clear that some here have an axe to grind against countries that fall outside the traditional and economic 'north'. Why bother trying to explain the inherent contradiction between claiming, on the one hand, that a market is too low yield to think about, and then demanding that that same undeserving low yield traffic should be protected onto certain carriers, since those certain carriers' survival (apparently) hinges on the ability to carry these low-yielding pax to partner hubs? Its a prime example of a disconnect between ideology and reason.

EDIT: Just noticed that Y+ is being offered on YVR-HKG. Used a random date (7 November). Did not show up for May or July. Guess the High Density 777 is going on that route after all.

[Edited 2013-05-30 14:24:04]

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: chrisa330
Posted 2013-05-30 14:22:26 and read 13088 times.

AC is starting to use these beasts on YVR-HKG in November...

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-30 14:24:09 and read 13078 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 29):
Quoting YTZ (Reply 28):
I think the first direct service to India is more likely to come from an Indian carrier serving Canada than vice versa.

There's already been a direct service before, although for a short time. Even nonstop if I remember correctly. It was flown by Canada 3000.

Canada 3000's service started about a month before they went bust. AC also operated nonstop YYZ-DEL with A340-300. A fuel stop was sometimes required.

You may recall there was also a big dispute when Russia denied AC overflight rights on their YYZ-DEL flights, which prompted Canada to close Canadian airspace to Russian aircraft and forced SU to take very devious routings on their U.S. flights. That dispute was settled a couple of weeks later.

AC had also announced and were accepting bookings for new nonstop seasonal service YVR-DEL in 2001 (using A340-300) to begin in October 2001. Those plans were cancelled after 9/11.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: spotter
Posted 2013-05-30 14:43:27 and read 13034 times.

YUL-CDG, and YYZ-MUC, according to our employee website, YUL-CDG to be first in competition with Air Transat and Air France!

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-30 14:45:05 and read 13018 times.

As per 30MAY13 GDS timetable and inventory display, Air Canada in Winter 2013/14 season is introducing 3-class Boeing 777-300ER aircraft on Vancouver – Hong Kong route, featuring the new Business and Premium Economy Class seating. Planned High-Density 777-300ER (77WP) operational days on this route as follow.

31OCT13 – 30NOV13 Day 146 (Day 257 from HKG)
01DEC13 – 31DEC13 Day x24 (Day x35 from HKG)
eff 01JAN14 Daily

AC007 YVR1140 – 1720+1HKG 77W D
AC008 HKG1910 – 1430YVR 77W D

Operational frequencies varies in November 2013.


http://airlineroute.net/2013/05/30/ac-yvrhkg-w13/

Thats going to be one looooong flight.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-30 14:53:02 and read 13041 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 34):
Thats going to be one looooong flight.

YVR-HKG is much shorter than YYZ-HKG. Many carriers with comparable 777 configurations operate longer nonstop sectors than YVR-HKG.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-30 15:06:20 and read 12961 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
YVR-HKG is much shorter than YYZ-HKG. Many carriers with comparable 777 configurations operate longer nonstop sectors than YVR-HKG.

Perhaps, but some airlines offer more legroom, better IFE and better catering than others. All of which will be essential in these loooong flights.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-05-30 15:16:12 and read 12962 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 34): Thats going to be one looooong flight.
YVR-HKG is much shorter than YYZ-HKG. Many carriers with comparable 777 configurations operate longer nonstop sectors than YVR-HKG.

Per AC PDF timetable YYZ-HKG is 7830mi and YVR-HKG is 6392mi. That's a difference of 1438mi.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-30 15:20:01 and read 12953 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 36):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
YVR-HKG is much shorter than YYZ-HKG. Many carriers with comparable 777 configurations operate longer nonstop sectors than YVR-HKG.

Perhaps, but some airlines offer more legroom, better IFE and better catering than others.

I've always considered AC's IFE among the best, and their longhaul catering is as good as any European carrier I've flown. 31 inch pitch in Y class is also very common.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-30 16:02:12 and read 12882 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
I've always considered AC's IFE among the best, and their longhaul catering is as good as any European carrier I've flown. 31 inch pitch in Y class is also very common.

AC's IFE is good when it works. If it works. Between increasingly worn out sound ports and erratic consistency, not to mention the never ending adverts (I don't recall seeing any on TK on my last flight with them a month ago), its not all that great. I have a collection of compensation forms that I never bothered filling out.

Longhaul catering as good as any European carrier? Given that TK is the 'best European carrier', and I regularly fly both TK and AC, I will disagree on that statement in every cabin. That aside, one need only peruse recent trip reports on AC to note how insubstantial the longhaul Y meals are. There are plenty of pictures of TPAC and TATL AC meals as well as European airline meals. I think you'll find that AC meals are notable for being the among the most insubstantial (small portions)- a verdict repeated in many recent AC Y trip reports. There was one trip report for LHR-YVR-LHR that hihglighted how small AC's portions are for a flight of that lenght. In J, you're right, AC is industry average, though the wine selection is showing signs of costcutting.

31" seat pitch - apart from AF/KL/OS (none of which are, I notice, in good financial shape), I can't think of too many airlines that have such limited legroom with such a tight cabin. 31" with 3-4-3 is not as common as you make it out to be. The other great purveyors of 3-4-3 typically go for 32-34".

I don't think AC is wrong in taking the action that it is. It has to. The 3-4-3 configuration is a great way to generate revenue. But lets not fool ourselves into believing that AC's 3-4-3 product is no worse than all the other 3-4-3 products out there. At best, it is on par with the weakest products out there, like OS and AF, though I suspect OS' Do&Co catering would give OS an edge on catering.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-30 16:09:24 and read 12947 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 39):
31" seat pitch - apart from AF/KL/OS (none of which are, I notice, in good financial shape), I can't think of too many airlines that have such limited legroom with such a tight cabin. 31" with 3-4-3 is not as common as you make it out to be. The other great purveyors of 3-4-3 typically go for 32-34".

AA's new 77Ws are 3-4-3 and 31 inch pitch in Y.

You also have to consider the type of seat. AC's new Y seats are the thin-back design that generates about 2 more inches of effective legroom than the older builkier seats on their current 77Ws.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-30 16:26:29 and read 12858 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
's new 77Ws are 3-4-3 and 31 inch pitch in Y.

You also have to consider the type of seat. AC's new Y seats are the thin-back design that generates about 2 more inches of effective legroom than the older builkier seats on their current 77Ws.

If AC wants to qualify in the same category as AA, then its a step in the right direction. But is that really going to guarantee success? These comparisons began with a simple statement that AC's deteriorating product and customer service (and the perception of inconsistency associated with them) were, IMHO, two of the main reasons behind its inability to command a premium despite a superior hard product. Going the AA way isn't going to change that. AA, like AF/KL and OS, is hardly a model of financial stability.

As for these new seats, while I agree that they might be very slim, I am skeptical about the assumption that it won't come at the cost of customer comfort, which is important in the context of 10hr + flights. I mean, you could install park benches and create even more legroom, but they would be extremely uncomfortable for that duration. I believe, mistakenly perhaps, that the reduction of bulkiness will also result in a reduction of cushioning and pax comfort. Furthermore, what is the IFE going to be like? Will these be the same seats that AC is planning on using for Rouge (ie - IFE-less, but with WIFI streaming across the cabin - or something like that)?

Its a simple rule - if you take something away, you're inevitably going to offer less. What form that takes, only time will tell. But there is a loss associated with pax comfort that goes beyond seat width (which is obviously going to be lost in this case)

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2013-05-30 18:22:11 and read 12701 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 41):
If AC wants to qualify in the same category as AA, then its a step in the right direction. But is that really going to guarantee success? These comparisons began with a simple statement that AC's deteriorating product and customer service (and the perception of inconsistency associated with them) were, IMHO, two of the main reasons behind its inability to command a premium despite a superior hard product. Going the AA way isn't going to change that. AA, like AF/KL and OS, is hardly a model of financial stability.

At least AA has a very decent frequent flyer program unlike AC who charges exorbitant surcharges on award tickets.

I've noticed that AA staff are markedly more friendlier too, both on the ground and in the air.

As much as I want to like AC (and I really try hard to, since I'm a proud Canadian), they let me down pretty much every time. Yes, I'm disappointed with AC's decision to go 3-4-3 like AA, but at least with AA I'll know I'm that much closer to getting an award ticket to Europe or South America (only 40,000 miles round trip off-peak, with very good availability and no hefty surcharges).

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Polaris
Posted 2013-05-30 20:58:48 and read 12552 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 28):
I think the first direct service to India is more likely to come from an Indian carrier serving Canada than vice versa.

Jet Airways of India has had daily Delhi-Brussels-Toronto service for a number of years. This year, they upgraded from an A330-200 to an A330-300.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: mdavies06
Posted 2013-05-30 21:26:34 and read 12512 times.

What is the typical demographic of travellers in Y for the YVR-HKG route? Is it predominently ethnic Chinese? Chinese are typically slimmer and shorter so that might have been a justification. Just a thought...

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: jfidler
Posted 2013-05-30 21:39:37 and read 12507 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 24):
First, I had booked two tickets from YYZ-PEK in Business class and was looking forward to the flight but when I could not check in on-line like I do when I travel. I then went to the airport and was given boarding passes not for business class but in the economy section and the two seats were not even in the same cabin. I complained that at least they could have found two seats together in the Y class of the aircraft, but was told that they could do nothing about it. I checked, while I was flying in Y-class my e-mails and to my surprise an email was sent to me from AC that I was unable to secure two seats in business class and that I would be seated in Y-class, then they had compensated me by refunding me the difference plus $500 good for travel on AC for the next year, to compensate me for my trouble.

So you booked and paid for C class, and they put you in Y? What was their explanation for why?

I generally prefer AC's C when flying North America to Asia because they have lie-flat and aisle access for all seats in C, at a reasonable price. However, the prospect of getting bumped into Y after paying for C would make me think twice.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-31 02:57:29 and read 12341 times.

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 44):

Sure, but by that logic, many Asian carriers should have gone that way a long time ago. Not to mention the fact that these aircraft are being introduced first on N. America - Europe, two regions with some of the taller/wider people in the world.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-05-31 06:29:43 and read 12227 times.

Quoting Polaris (Reply 43):
Jet Airways of India has had daily Delhi-Brussels-Toronto service for a number of years. This year, they upgraded from an A330-200 to an A330-300.

That's not direct service. Though really convenient, especially for folks like me heading to BOM not DEL, the 9W scissor service is still at least 3 hours longer than any direct service would be.

I'm looking forward to the day when I won't have to transit in Europe and I'll be flying YYZ-BOM direct or YYZ-DEL and then grabbing one of those hourly flights to BOM after clearing Indian immigration/customs.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-31 09:15:22 and read 12142 times.

YUL-CDG as mentioned, as well as YYZ-MUC during Oktoberfest. Also, YVR-HKG and YVR-LHR.

I find it interesting that other than the seasonal MUC, these are all non Star Alliance hubs.

There will also be one rotation YUL-YYZ-YUL, as well as two YYZ-YVR-YYZ rotations a day.

These aircraft have the same empty weight as the existing -300ERs, with a higher MTOW. Range is not likely to be an issue on the proprosed routes.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 30):
Actually, no. If you use AC's 0.09% overbooking rate and work with the assumption that half of those result in involuntary denied boarding, you're looking at ~16,000 potentially unhappy passengers. Even if you take only half of that, you're still looking at 8,000 unhappy pax. So somewhere between 650 and 1300 and 2600 won't be happy in any given month. (All of this being said with tongue firmly in cheek)

Exactly ... 16,000 potentially unhappy passengers. Yet ... you don't hear about it. And with the press never missing an opportunity to jump on Air Canada Bashing, rest assured if it existed, it would be reported. Sounds like these issues were handled well.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 30):
AC offered for a non-reclining $8,000 J seat on a 15 hour flight.

This was actually an interesting story. And as reported in the press, entirely incorrect.

The passenger was offered a fully functioning seat, but (tragedy) it was not near the rest of his family. (Odd that it was an issue, as with the herringbone cabin layout, you're not near anyone anyway, even when you are!) The seat would recline electrically, but would not go upright without assistance from a F/A.This would take about 30 seconds, and seeing it being done, its not hard to figure out what to do yourself.

Granted this is not ideal, but the F/A's did what they could with what they had. So ... this gentleman had full Executive First service, Maple Leaf Lounge access, priority boarding, priority baggage handling, full on-board service. And, as it was not reported, one has to assume his seat worked on the return flight. Do you really think that having to have a F/A raise your seat from flat to recline, say 3 or 4 times during the flight warrants having your full $8000 round trip airfare refunded?

It should be mentioned, the seat worked electrically from upright, to recline to flat, and from recline to upright. It was only the flat to recline function that required attention.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-05-31 12:54:50 and read 11848 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 48):
Yet ... you don't hear about it.

How many people really go to the press? I have some choice stories with many airlines. I haven't thought about calling in the media cavalry even once. And some of them were pretty bad.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 48):
And as reported in the press, entirely incorrect.

If that's true, they've taken a press beating over nothing. Why didn't they push back and correct the record? Presumably because the media wouldn't let them? Its a strange relationship that - the press needs AC adverts as much as it needs any other adverts. Surely that gives AC enough capital to put its version of the story out? These stories don't help with the perception of the airline, and if all they're going to try to do is compete by being $1 less...I have my doubts about how effective this strategy would be.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-31 17:04:18 and read 11697 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 49):
These stories don't help with the perception of the airline, and if all they're going to try to do is compete by being $1 less...I have my doubts about how effective this strategy would be.

We have to remember, the only people that would notice more than once would be us, aviation enthusiasts. Air Canada did admit the chair was not working entirely properly, and it was not ... now ... was that worth the complete refund of the fare? Of course not. Why go to the expense and bother of setting the record straight in the press, when most people don't give a rat's ass?

What AC, (and all airlines for that matter) have to watch, is not to reward this type of passenger, for this type of action. You know the "give me all I want, or I'm going to the press, and push the truth" type of person.

I remember a few years ago, during a snow storm in YVR, every time the press rolled its cameras, Westjet started handing out pizza. I asked one of our marketing types why AC doesn't do stunts like that. The answer I got was surprising .... "Because you see Captain Longhauler, next summer when people are buying a seat from YVR to LAX, they wont pick the airline that handed out pizza a year ago, they'll pick the cheapest airline. Period!"

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-31 17:12:16 and read 11684 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 47):
Quoting Polaris (Reply 43):
Jet Airways of India has had daily Delhi-Brussels-Toronto service for a number of years. This year, they upgraded from an A330-200 to an A330-300.

That's not direct service. Though really convenient, especially for folks like me heading to BOM not DEL, the 9W scissor service is still at least 3 hours longer than any direct service would be.

It's direct in the airline industry definition of direct. There's a difference between "nonstop" and "direct". The latter refers to any flight with the same flight number from origin to destination regardless of number of stops or changes of aircraft. It is of course true that many passengers consider "direct" as a synonym for "nonstop" but that's never been the case in airline scheduling terminology.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-31 17:18:33 and read 11748 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 41):
Will these be the same seats that AC is planning on using for Rouge (ie - IFE-less, but with WIFI streaming across the cabin

AC's website seat map for the new 77W configuration shows "in-seat audio-video on demand", the same as for the rest of their mainline fleet.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2013-05-31 19:50:54 and read 11599 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Thus the new high density B777s for markets that can bear such an aircraft.

Whats the bet Corsair will pick up 2nd hand A380's once SQ and EK are done with them and crame them Y & Y+.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 23):
the tiny Indo-Canadian community

This is not true, its not tiny - its just low yielding VFR, so I agree with the rest of your post.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 41):
If AC wants to qualify in the same category as AA, then its a step in the right direction. But is that really going to guarantee success?

Particularly when the competition is CX, BA & VS. While I understand the product of the Chinese carriers is not the greatest, its inevitable carriers like Hainan, HK Airlines and others will start expanding who have better onboard products, I could see YVR being destinations for both and is rumored to be a destination for the low Y Skymark A380 too. Im not too sure if this is the best way to compete, guess AC will find out.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
their longhaul catering is as good as any European carrier I've flown

In Y, TS is no worse...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
31 inch pitch in Y class is also very common.

As a short guy, I can live with 31" pitch no problem. The issue for me is the width of the seats, which is what gets done away with 10 abreast, but maybe to HKG it wont be such as issue as the below is certainly true.

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 44):
Chinese are typically slimmer and shorter so that might have been a justification. Just a thought...
Quoting longhauler (Reply 48):
and YVR-LHR.

Wow, didnt see that one. Cant beat TS, join them. Actually, I understand the arrival of VS is hurting AC more than BA. Certainly no way to compete with VS though, apart from price, I will have to check. BA are continuing with 12 weekly again this summer, was wondering if they would with VS on the scene. Seeing as AC was twice daily until fairly recently, its clear who is losing the pax.


Out of interest if anyone knows, can the 77W still take the same cargo volume in the new configuration vs the existing one? I would imagine not, but does the increased MTOW compensate that?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-31 20:13:28 and read 11604 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 53):
Seeing as AC was twice daily until fairly recently, its clear who is losing the pax.

No, the actual YVR-LHR market has not changed all that much in numbers. It seems connections are now routed through FRA. A large change from last year is that Star Alliance connection possibilities are virtually zero now through LHR. Carrying only O&D traffic increases the yield quite a bit. The change from the A330 + B767 combo to B777-300 is not much of a reduction of seats, and the replacement with the HD B777, will result in more seats.

If the rumours I have heard about how well VS is doing in YVR, I don't think they are much a factor.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 53):
Out of interest if anyone knows, can the 77W still take the same cargo volume in the new configuration vs the existing one? I would imagine not, but does the increased MTOW compensate that?

Cargo volume is identical. On such a short route like YVR-LHR, cargo weight will not be a factor either. But as AC flies to LHR from YVR, YEG, YYC, YYZ, YOW, YUL, YHZ and YYT, cargo can be routed through any station.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-01 07:38:33 and read 11263 times.

Quoting RP TPA (Thread starter):
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 53):
Out of interest if anyone knows, can the 77W still take the same cargo volume in the new configuration vs the existing one?
Quoting longhauler (Reply 54):
Cargo volume is identical.

The extra passengers baggage for the ~459-seat version would reduce the LD3 spaces by about 4.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-06-01 08:21:24 and read 11264 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 55):
The extra passengers baggage for the ~459-seat version would reduce the LD3 spaces by about 4.

I was talking with the B777 Chief Pilot a few days ago, and he mentioned something about the wing box being of a different design, and that cargo capacity was not an issue. Not being on the Triple, I am not sure what he meant. It may have been all Triples, or just the new ones.

However, as I did mention cargo to him, he said that weight was more of an issue than volume, as the beast can carry a LOT. With the increased MTOW, and same empty weight, (he mentioned how that was done, I don't recall), cargo weight would not be a problem until the longer Asian flights the -300 is presently doing.

Of course, that's assuming its not carrying containers of ping pong balls or inflated balloons.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2013-06-01 10:41:02 and read 11075 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 14):
Interestingly, of the 5x daily YYZLHR flights this summer, only one of them is on a 77W. The rest are all 3x 763s plus 1x 77L.

Yes. I do miss the old days (1980s-1990's) when AC had at least 2 747s on LHR routings.

Blame it on aggressive moves from BA? UA/DL/AA can be blamed to on JFK-LHR.

The cost efficiency of the 763 on Canada-Europe routes over the 77W can't be disputed either.

[Edited 2013-06-01 10:42:23]

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-01 10:41:18 and read 11043 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 56):
However, as I did mention cargo to him, he said that weight was more of an issue than volume, as the beast can carry a LOT

In the FWIW category, I have done up a spread sheet that calculates available cargo capacity after allowing for LD3's needed for baggage. A 365-seat 77W will need ~13 LD3 positions. This leaves 1-LD3 plus 10- 96" x 125" pallets and the bulk space . This gives ~ 140 m3 which at typical belly cargo density for passenger aircraft of 160kg/m3 including tare a cargo load of 23.7t.
With a DOW of about 172t , max passengers of ~35t and volume limited cargo of 23.7t a typical ZFW is about 225t quite a bit less than the 237.6t MZFW.
Now this assumes all this can be loaded taking balance etc. into account. A former major contributor to A. net who is very involved in air freight for an Asian carrier said that it was normal to figure the air freight load efficiency factor at 80%. I do not know whether this applied to both dedicated freighters and passenger aircraft or not.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-06-01 11:54:14 and read 10949 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 58):

That's interesting, thanks!

So if 4 more LD3s are needed for the larger passenger capacity, what would that be ... the same floor space as two 96x125 pallets?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-01 13:06:15 and read 10845 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 59):
So if 4 more LD3s are needed for the larger passenger capacity, what would that be ... the same floor space as two 96x125 pallets?

From the Boeing ACAP sheets to accommodate the extra 4 - LD3 for baggage, it would appear two 96x125 freight pallets would come out and two freight LD3's could be added back in giving a cargo load of ~21t.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: by738
Posted 2013-06-01 15:11:48 and read 10713 times.

I dont really understand the need for High Density within mainline, isnt that the role of Rouge which ultimately will no doubt expand outwith traditional leisure routes

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-06-01 15:25:35 and read 10726 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 61):
I dont really understand the need for High Density within mainline, isnt that the role of Rouge which ultimately will no doubt expand outwith traditional leisure routes

The fact that AC will first use these High Density aircraft on the YUL-CDG route proves there's a need for such service within mainline. On that route, AC is facing TS and AF with their high capacity aircraft. Plus, Rouge has not yet started operations, will it be successful ?, and is based on two types of aircraft, for now: the A319 and B763. Obviously AC needs more capacity on certain routes, and YUL-CDG isn't just another route. It's a link between two large French speaking metropolis.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-06-01 15:27:08 and read 10709 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 61):
I dont really understand the need for High Density within mainline, isnt that the role of Rouge which ultimately will no doubt expand out with traditional leisure routes

The high density 77Ws are needed for routes with a mix of business and leisure demand and where the extra Y seats can generate a lot of additional revenue. Rouge is intended for markets with virtually no business traffic.

The high density 77Ws are also the only 3-class aircraft in AC's fleet as they're introducing a premium Y product (24 seats 2-4-2, 38 inch pitch) in addition to the 36 flat bed J seats. So they actually have more premium seats than the 42 J seats on the current 2-class 77Ws.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-06-01 16:03:42 and read 10688 times.

AF/TS/KL lowered the bar. AF flies a daily B77W with 472 seats and 10 abreast into YUL daily in the summer. Rarely do we hear complaints and we all know how much the Montreal market loves AF   . Air Canada is simply responding to this model by featuring the sub-fleet for heavily leisure dependent markets. There will also be 8 LAV's for PY/Y pax

Air Transat offers 9 abreast in an A330-200 which is significantly tighter than a 10 abreast B777-300ER. Yet they continue to be nominated as the best leisure airline in the world.

The reality remains that Canada is a small premium home market. The population is heavily weighted towards the middle class demographic. It's no secrets that Y heavy airlines like EY, AF, KL, TS, DE, SS have had significant success in Canada.

The days of luxurious seat-pitch in the economy cabin are limited. The majority of airlines are segmenting by offering 4 types of products (Business, Premium Economy, Economy Plus and Basic Economy). Welcome to the reality - Air Canada is simply trying to stay ahead of the curve.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: opethfan
Posted 2013-06-01 17:44:36 and read 10541 times.

I can see a lot of flights into LHR as using the tighter seating. AC flies into there from almost every major airport and there's a substantial British population in many of the big cities. For people like my family, they just take the cheapest flight possible once a year and probably don't even remember how tightly packed they were. This is how TS gets to be so highly rated: people voting may not be aware of what seat pitches other airlines are offering, they just want to get to the old country as cheaply as humanly possible.

I'm sure that for many leisure travellers, AC or BA may not have even been considered since the fares are a hundred or two more. It may also be worth investigating if flying into LGW is a plus for some travellers (especially O&D), too. It certainly is for my family.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-06-01 20:03:46 and read 10436 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 64):
AF/TS/KL lowered the bar. AF flies a daily B77W with 472 seats and 10 abreast into YUL daily in the summer. Rarely do we hear complaints and we all know how much the Montreal market loves AF . Air Canada is simply responding to this model by featuring the sub-fleet for heavily leisure dependent markets. There will also be 8 LAV's for PY/Y pax

Doesn't explain the decision to put high density aircraft on YVR HKG, which is 6400 miles, versus YUL-CDG, which clocks in at around 3700 miles. The only airlines that operate routes of that length with tight cabins (AF/KL/OS) are all deep in the red.

Interesting comment about the 8 lavs for Y/Y+ pax. If you take out the 36 J seats, that's 8 lavs for what, 400 pax, or 50 odd pax per lav. I imagine things will get pretty messy on a 6400 mile flight. How does AF/KL's ratio compare to this?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 64):
Yet they continue to be nominated as the best leisure airline in the world.

TS offers low fares and a product that will soon be comparable to AC's high density TATL product. I would be very surprised if AC offered TS pricing during summer peak. Frankly, I don't think AC can afford, even with the extra seats. TS isn't doing well at all.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-06-01 20:51:10 and read 10335 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 30):
I've had many occassions where AC has simply refused to recognize EU rules, but then coughs up the money the moment a third-party organization (with the time and energy), gets involved to make them respect it.

Why would they, they are Canadian not from Europe, there by not having to comply with the EU rules.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-06-02 05:05:27 and read 10129 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 67):

All flights (including AC flights) departing from the EU are subject to the EU rules on compensation. For Europe-bound flights departing outside Europe, the rules only apply to EU carriers. In other words, a Canadian travelling Canada-EU-Canada on AC is protected on the EU-Canada portion, whereas a Canadian travelling on the same routes on BA is protected on both legs.

AC routinely (probably as a matter of policy) refuses to acknowledge the validity of the claims. It doesn't challenge the validity of the rules. It simply sticks to explanations that insist that everything was outside its control, therefore the rules don't apply. Problem for them is that the law has already been used to set precedents outlining what airlines are responsible for, so taking AC to the aviation authorities in the relevant EU country (usually via a third party) almost always results in a payout. Long story short - LOTS of inconvenience , obfuscation, and outright lies (different explanations from ground staff before the flight, and customer service after the flight) appear to be the AC modus operandi till they're taken to the government.

I suppose that's one way of saying that AF would still offers better value proposition even if AC matched it on everything else.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-06-02 13:03:15 and read 9841 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 66):
Doesn't explain the decision to put high density aircraft on YVR HKG, which is 6400 miles, versus YUL-CDG, which clocks in at around 3700 miles. The only airlines that operate routes of that length with tight cabins (AF/KL/OS) are all deep in the red.

Interesting comment about the 8 lavs for Y/Y+ pax. If you take out the 36 J seats, that's 8 lavs for what, 400 pax, or 50 odd pax per lav. I imagine things will get pretty messy on a 6400 mile flight. How does AF/KL's ratio compare to this?

Interesting you draw a parallel between loss making and aircraft density. 10 Abreast in economy is the norm of the industry. Airlines like Qatar, Turkish, American are either going down the road or head down shortly. They also have ULR flying on this type of density.

Yet again.. welcome to the segmentation of products for different traveller types. This industry doesn't make enough money to give everybody a comfortable ride.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-06-02 15:34:48 and read 9718 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 66):
Interesting comment about the 8 lavs for Y/Y+ pax. If you take out the 36 J seats, that's 8 lavs for what, 400 pax, or 50 odd pax per lav. I imagine things will get pretty messy on a 6400 mile flight. How does AF/KL's ratio compare to this?
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 66):
Interesting comment about the 8 lavs for Y/Y+ pax. If you take out the 36 J seats, that's 8 lavs for what, 400 pax, or 50 odd pax per lav. I imagine things will get pretty messy on a 6400 mile flight. How does AF/KL's ratio compare to this?

AF seat map for their highest density 77W used on certain leisure routes shows 8 lavs for 422 Y psgrs, (plus one each for 14 J and 32 premium Y passengers).

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-06-02 15:53:46 and read 9658 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 69):
Interesting you draw a parallel between loss making and aircraft density. 10 Abreast in economy is the norm of the industry. Airlines like Qatar, Turkish, American are either going down the road or head down shortly. They also have ULR flying on this type of density.

Yes and no. I'm not drawing the parallel between aircraft density and all airlines in general; I'm drawing a parallel between AC and airlines that fall into the same service category as AC. I have long contended that in Y, there are only three things that matter: seat comfort, catering and IFE. AF, OS and AC fall into the same category on seat comfort (the legroom and width are the same). In terms of catering and IFE, AF and OS are stronger on the former while AC is stronger on the latter (if/when it works). All 3 essentially fall into the same categoy. AA - the less said the better.

None of these 4 airlines fall into the same category as, say, NZ(which I believe also has 3-4-3), 9W, QR, TK etc. While seat-width will shrink that 1", I doubt legroom will as well (on 9W, it hasn't), and in terms of IFE and especially catering, they're a couple of notches above the likes of AC, not to mention their ability to price lower courtesy of lower cost bases.

I suppose the long and short of it is that some airlines have at least tried to offset the negative impact of squeezing in that one extra seat per row than others. I don't think AC has any plans of offsetting the negative impact. That said, I think it will work for AC on TATL due to the generally poor competition/consolidation on those routes; Asia will be a more interesting case study. I'm not critical of AC's decision to go down this route (as you note, it is inevitable); I just fear that Canadian consumers are going to see the value proposition go from poor to awful, since I don't expect too much downward pressure on prices (a benefit of serving an underserved market).

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-06-02 16:43:13 and read 9611 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 71):
I have long contended that in Y, there are only three things that matter: seat comfort, catering and IFE.

For the average Y class passenger I think the fare is much more important than the 3 things you mention.

[Edited 2013-06-02 16:43:48]

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: opethfan
Posted 2013-06-02 16:45:46 and read 9618 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
For the average Y class passenger I think the fare is much more important than the 3 things you mention.

Very much so. Things like WS offering a free checked bag are also things that make me pick them when taking a quick inexpensive trip within the continent.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-06-02 19:26:25 and read 9484 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
For the average Y class passenger I think the fare is much more important than the 3 things you mention.

Kind of goes without saying that those 3 things are based on the assumptions that fares are very similar or identical. That was the entire point of mimicking AF, wasn't it? To be able to match them on fares without running into heavy losses?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-06-03 03:22:54 and read 9349 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
For the average Y class passenger I think the fare is much more important than the 3 things you mention.

Indeed, and I think it's even more the case now that LCC have taken such importance in people's flying habits. TS is there to prove it, even though it's rather a niche carrier on long-haul flights, compared to the larger network of WN, WS and other LCC.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-06-14 08:56:35 and read 8816 times.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 2):
Have they already received these a/c or not yet?

Per skyliner news today:

Boeing 777 -333 42218 1108 C-FIVW Air Canada delivery 14jun13 PAE-VCV

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: TS-IOR
Posted 2013-06-16 07:44:30 and read 8363 times.

Maybe Frankfurt ! I took AC873 FRA-YYZ two weeks ago and the 77W was packed ! Load 100 % in both J and Y !

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-06-16 12:30:10 and read 8157 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 71):
I have long contended that in Y, there are only three things that matter: seat comfort, catering and IFE.

For the average Y class passenger I think the fare is much more important than the 3 things you mention.

  

For Air Canada this would be a high density 77W. However for the industry it is simply the new normal or higher density 77W. Of course because it is AC it has be be phrased in the worst way possible.

I find it interesting that so much ballyhoo was made of AC being told to improve their compensation for overbooked passengers, and please correct me if I am wrong, little has been said of the recent WestJet ruling that they had to adjust their compensation plans as well. Of course not that I am saying that some people have selective recall.   

Much has been said of the back of the bus superiority of some carriers and in this thread BA was mentioned and AF. My brother after recently flying a second time, AF from YYZ via Paris to Senegal has vowed to never fly them to Africa again. While food was marginally better than AC he found the flight crew rude, seat problems couldn't be corrected (something about limited recline) and he found he preferred connecting in other Euro airports.

With BA my mother has given my Dad an ultimatum. They flew in the back of the 747 to LHR and connected on to Moscow. She felt cramped in the seat as they were among the first to board due to Dad's health issues. Then just prior to pushback and extremely large gentleman was seated beside her next to the window with Dad on the aisle. The large man overlapped her seat by a good margin. She stood up and quietly asked the FA if there was another arrangement possible, they had upgrade coupons but were denied as the front was full. No change possible she was told in a snitty manner from an officious FA. So she said to Dad you book BA with Y as a possibility, you go alone.

Now both of these examples are very subjective to the traveler. As is all these "reports" people mention. You can find them for almost every airline. Friends complain about EK's FA's as pretty to look at but not as service minded as older more experienced FA's on other airlines (or Asian carriers). Is that statistically relevant? A report of people who have an axe to grind about EK? Or just another subjective opinion? Some people prefer Pepsi and some Coke and both have complaints about the other being too sweet, or not sweet enough.

All this palaver really doesn't matter, and the most telling item will be customers $$$ and bums in seats. All the running around saying the sky is falling won't matter if the move is a financial success. You better believe if results prove poor on the first few aircraft, a change will be made for the later 3, and adjusted again for the 787's.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-06-29 02:39:27 and read 7447 times.

Just for the record following my previous post about it:

Boeing 777 -333 42218 1108 C-FIVW Air Canada onward delivery 26jun13 VCV-YMX after IFE fitting

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-06-30 10:00:22 and read 6789 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 75):

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
For the average Y class passenger I think the fare is much more important than the 3 things you mention.

Indeed, and I think it's even more the case now that LCC have taken such importance in people's flying habits. TS is there to prove it, even though it's rather a niche carrier on long-haul flights, compared to the larger network of WN, WS and other LCC.

For the leisure passenger you mentioned they are looking at what a family could get to where they want to go for as little money as they can spend on the transport method. TS for what it is set up for is a great way for some one who does not want to break the bank to fly to sun destinations and Europe. That is the primary target for Rouge as I see it.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-07-04 14:44:51 and read 6034 times.

The first pictures of AC's 777s are up on their Facebook page.

Nothing out of the ordinary in J or Y in my opinion. Not too keen on the very dark seat covers, but that's minor quibble. Like the look of the seatbacks PTVs on the Y seat.

Y+, on the other hand....well, it took me a few minutes to figure out that it was, in fact, Y+. It looks like an average Y seat - a bit too cheap looking - can't discern anything 'premium' about them. On the basis of appearances alone, I don't think it measures up to VS or AF, or even BA's new product. $2k for 2 6 hour rides from YUL to CDG and back in that? You're having a laugh.

Not bad for an op-up, I suppose.

[Edited 2013-07-04 14:46:05]

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-04 17:34:23 and read 5727 times.

For the leisure passenger are looking at what a family could get to where they want to go for as little money as they can spend on the transport method. TS for what it is set up for is a great way for some one who does not want to break the bank to fly to sun destinations and Europe

Quoting opethfan (Reply 73):
Very much so. Things like WS offering a free checked bag are also things that make me pick them when taking a quick inexpensive trip within the continent.

I would prefer them to AC if there were a premium cabin on WS but WS's fares to YXU, which would be the only place we would travel to where WS flies from here and WS tends to be on the higher end of the price range compared to AC or UA when we fly back to YXU. Generally we would use DL to DTW and save us quite a bit of money and get a better schedule.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: multimark
Posted 2013-07-07 11:39:31 and read 4924 times.

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 31):
AC is starting to use these beasts on YVR-HKG in November...

Disappointing. I had hoped we were not going to see these nasty, overcrowded a/c out west. I thought Rouge was supposed to the high density leisure carrier, not mainline! More proof AC has no clue when it comes to brand management.

Also, I had heard secondhand that carry on lugagge would not be permitted on these new 777's, it would all have to be checked. Can anyone confirm this?

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-07-07 11:52:43 and read 4904 times.

Quoting multimark (Reply 83):
I thought Rouge was supposed to the high density leisure carrier, not mainline!

With 36 Exec First, 24 Premium Economy & 398 coach, these aircraft are not really for a leisure carrier. AC has to adjust to the market's demands and to cover its costs.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-07-07 13:12:58 and read 4761 times.

Quoting multimark (Reply 83):
Also, I had heard secondhand that carry on lugagge would not be permitted on these new 777's, it would all have to be checked. Can anyone confirm this?

That's true for nonrev employees but not for revenue passengers. Nonrev passengers can only carry a small bag that fits beneath the seat.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: multimark
Posted 2013-07-07 13:55:10 and read 4685 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
That's true for nonrev employees but not for revenue passengers. Nonrev passengers can only carry a small bag that fits beneath the seat.

Ah, that makes sense, it was an AC employee's wife I was talking to.

Topic: RE: Air Canada High-density 777s....destinations?
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2013-07-08 02:50:20 and read 4204 times.

Re YYZ-BRU-DEL on Jet Airways:

Quoting YTZ (Reply 47):
That's not direct service.

Yes it is. "Direct" means no change of plane. You're thinking of "nonstop".


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