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Topic: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: moderators
Posted 2013-06-18 02:07:14 and read 49829 times.

As announced at Le Bourget.

Boeing today announced they have officially launched the 787-10 Dreamliner, the third variant of the 787 after the -8 and -9.

They have received a total of 102 commitments from five customers as follows;

30 from Air Lease Corporation
10 from GECAS
12 from IAG / BA subject to shareholder approval
30 from Singapore Airlines
20 from United

Final assembly and flight testing are set to begin in 2017 with the first delivery targeted for 2018.

Be interesting to see which other carriers order it and whether we will see any conversions from existing models.

Source, The Boeing Company

As the model has officially been launched this thread is for the discussion of the launch without the speculation of the pre launch thread which can be found here Boeing 787-10 Launch Imminent (by KarelXWB Jun 13 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 02:10:21 and read 49985 times.

And there is the slide again:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNBsIpZCEAA3eSG.jpg:large

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-06-18 02:10:30 and read 49873 times.

So no surprise really here ....
6700-7000 Nm depending on the PAX Load

Good to see the good old 3 classes layout (61 in for first, 39 in for biz, 31-32 in for econ)
Is the IFE included as standard (it is worth 1-3 t extra weight...)

Semi-levered gear needed if i recall yesterday twitt

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-06-18 02:12:16 and read 49802 times.

The spec sheet given by Karel (pls repost) is strange,, I think someone at the B marketing department is in trouble (210 to 250 pax????, 57m, 228t and so on, this is the 788 spec !!!!!)

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:15:04]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 02:14:15 and read 49707 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
The spec sheet given by Karel (pls repost) is strange

Seems like their developers were in a hurry to launch the website. Let's wait a bit longer until they have fixed the spec sheet.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 02:19:41 and read 49552 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
The spec sheet given by Karel (pls repost) is strange,, I think someone at the B marketing department is in trouble (210 to 250 pax????)

Yes, and that is not all. Words are cut off. And two of the sample city pairs is NYC-HKG at 7,014nm (range is 7k?) and 'Tokya'-Casablanca. I am willing to wager it will not be used on either route. Someone really should get fired for this junk.

I like the following characterization:
787-8 for new routes
787-9 for long routes
787-10 for high density routes.

tortugamon

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:21:54]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-06-18 02:20:46 and read 49470 times.

Any hope for an LH order later on? This aircraft has what they wanted, capacity over range. I wonder if SK is looking at it as well.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: B747forever
Posted 2013-06-18 02:22:24 and read 49383 times.

Quoting moderators (Thread starter):
30 from Air Lease Corporation
10 from GECAS

Any ideas where those birds might end up?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: BreninTW
Posted 2013-06-18 02:26:20 and read 49226 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):
Quoting moderators (Thread starter):
10 from GECAS

Any ideas where those birds might end up?

BR anyone?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 02:27:01 and read 49244 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
pls repost

Some of the pictures on the new site are good and I like the ad campaign 'perfect 10'. Too bad they tripped a little. For those that haven't found it its all here: Lets hope they fix it quickly.

http://www.newairplane.com/787/787-10_announcement/

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-06-18 02:28:41 and read 49155 times.

Well, some were thinking British Airways would order 18, versus the 12 that they actually ordered. Perhaps 6 for British then?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 02:33:29 and read 49026 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 10):
Well, some were thinking British Airways would order 18, versus the 12 that they actually ordered. Perhaps 6 for British then?

The thing is, those 18 units are intended as 744 replacements. I would be surprised if they order 12 787-10 + 6 787-9 aircraft for this purpose, maybe the remaining 6 will be 787-10 options.

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:35:09]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: milestones787
Posted 2013-06-18 02:38:56 and read 48864 times.

Wow, what % more efficient is the 787-10 going to be than the 744? That is a huge leap!

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-06-18 02:40:39 and read 48808 times.

Sorry, I meant to say that perhaps 6 of the 787-10 that leasing companies ordered are destined for British Airways, thus bringing their fleet total to 18.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-06-18 02:43:47 and read 48747 times.

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 12):

35% was posted somewhere, quite a bit, don't know if you can compare a 744 to a 787-10 though, maybe at 320 seats?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 02:44:57 and read 48698 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 14):
don't know if you can compare a 744 to a 787-10 though

Some BA 744 aircraft only have about 290 seats.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 02:46:28 and read 48625 times.

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 12):
Wow, what % more efficient is the 787-10 going to be than the 744?

35% has been speculated. BA has a bunch of 299 seat 744s.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-06-18 02:49:58 and read 48588 times.

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 12):
Wow, what % more efficient is the 787-10 going to be than the 744? That is a huge leap!

The will consume 40 kg/knm/m2 vs. 64 for the 744, I get this to be 37% more fuel efficient, I would say it is as close to a no brainer as you get   .

[Edited 2013-06-18 02:50:44]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-06-18 02:59:00 and read 48360 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):

I guess the 787-10 will be a very popular TATL shuttle aircraft, it´s really perfect for this role.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 03:09:38 and read 48167 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 18):
I guess the 787-10 will be a very popular TATL shuttle aircraft, it´s really perfect for this role.

I am surprised to only see 12 orders.

UA's purchase of 20 is a reasonable size order but I am surprised they decided to convert 10 of their other 787 orders. IMO they need more aircraft in this 300 seat area than the 60 they have to replace the 150 frames that they have on hand.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 03:14:22 and read 48072 times.

A couple heavy quotes:

“The 787-10 will be the most efficient jetliner in history,” Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner said at the launch event in Paris. “The 787-10 is 25% more efficient than airplanes of its size today and more than 10% better than anything being offered by the competition for the future.”
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/awx_06_18_2013_p0-589320.xml&p=1

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 03:15:32 and read 48057 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
A couple heavy quotes:

The usual marketing talk  

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 03:25:48 and read 47817 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):

I hear you. Doesn't his quote imply that the A359 would only be 15% more efficient than the A330. That does not sound right.

Once BA's additional six 787s are added to SuH's three -9s doesn't that take orders to 991. Just nine more to go! Lock up the 787-9 order for QR!

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 03:34:13 and read 47596 times.

About the landing gear:

Quote:
In contrast with the internal design changes and wing clean-up required for the 787-9, the latest variant demands minor only tweaks involving two fuselage plugs and a 777-300ER-style, semi-levered landing gear to avoid tailstrikes on rotation.


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...787-10-with-five-customers-387321/

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-06-18 03:36:38 and read 47510 times.

Finally, the range is quite important, so Boeing will not have the same problem as the 764.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: PM
Posted 2013-06-18 03:56:02 and read 49177 times.

Engines?

We know that the SQ (30) and BA (12) planes will have RR Trent 1000s.

We know that the GECAS planes (10) will have GEnxs.

The (30) for ALC will almost certainly be a mix of both engines.

That leaves the (20) for UA. CO ordered their 787s with GE. UA hadn't / haven't made an engine choice for the order they placed. Had their fleet stayed all -8s and -9s, I'd have said it was a dead cert that they'd all have GE but something tells me that RR might have the edge on the -10. Fingers crossed.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: someone83
Posted 2013-06-18 03:59:50 and read 49055 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):
Some BA 744 aircraft only have about 290 seats.

Yes, but a 787-10 in a typical BA config wouldn't have 290 seats despite Boeing market it as a >300 seat aircraft

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: VH-BZF
Posted 2013-06-18 04:30:29 and read 49131 times.

I think that Qantas given their previous comments (Alan Joyce) about wanting the B787-10 will definitely be a customer for this variant. It will be perfectly timed in terms of delivery for them to replace the A330-300's and fill the gap between the A380 and the B787-9's.

BZF

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-06-18 04:33:05 and read 48855 times.

Does it have the range for Qantas?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-06-18 04:44:11 and read 48390 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 19):
I am surprised to only see 12 orders.

UA's purchase of 20 is a reasonable size order but I am surprised they decided to convert 10 of their other 787 orders. IMO they need more aircraft in this 300 seat area than the 60 they have to replace the 150 frames that they have on hand.

It's very early days yet; I don't know when exactly the 7810 is due to enter service (say 2018?), which is a good long way down the road and we will probably see more acquisitions of 787s between now and then; who knows, perhaps some of the 787s order by the lessors will also end up with BA?

Don't forget that the 777X launch is still to come and what BA has ordered already, between A350s and 787s, still won't even replace the 744s one for one, so there is still scope for additional developments and - if this happens - it will leave BA with a complicated balancing act between the three major types (and several sub-types), so we may yet see further adjustments as data - from in-service information - becomes clearer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incidentally, now that the 787-10 has been launched and we're pretty clear on the dimensions of the 777X sub-types, is there anywhere one can get a representation of all of the next generation widebody twins, from the 788 up to the 777-9? I saw something on a post a while back, with several different types in BA colours, but can't recall if this included everything.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: flood
Posted 2013-06-18 04:44:14 and read 48536 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 25):
UA hadn't / haven't made an engine choice for the order they placed. Had their fleet stayed all -8s and -9s, I'd have said it was a dead cert that they'd all have GE but something tells me that RR might have the edge on the -10. Fingers crossed.

Unfortunately not...

"With this order and the six Dreamliners currently operated by the airline, United has ordered 65 GEnx-1B-powered 787s, making United the largest GEnx-1B operator."
http://www.geaviation.com/press/genx/genx_20130618.html

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2013-06-18 04:51:46 and read 48041 times.

Would anyone point me in a direction where I could download one of those amazing 787-10 images from newairplane.com site in high resolution, please? I would love to have one of those grace my desktop...

Thanks a million in advance!

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Aither
Posted 2013-06-18 04:54:55 and read 48012 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):
http://www.newairplane.com/787/787-10_announcement/

If the market is routes like "tokya to Casablanca" I think Airbus should not be worried  
SIN-LHR ? HKG-JFK ? this is not serious

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-18 04:59:17 and read 47748 times.

The quote from Hazy on MTOW is dubious. The value ascribed to him is that of the 789. PIANO-X suggests to me that it will need close to 254t to make the ~7100nm range at max passenger load. I have to believe there is more to come on this number.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-06-18 05:13:43 and read 47123 times.

It can do LHR-LAX at MTOW easy, how long routes does BA have? As I understand TALT is still their bread and butter?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: gemuser
Posted 2013-06-18 05:19:20 and read 46859 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 28):
Does it have the range for Qantas?

Yes. All of Asia, (at least as far west as Pakistan) is within range, all the Pacific Islands, even South Africa & Chile & Argentina (ignoring ETOPS rules) are within 7000nm. West Coast North America is marginal, but that's what B788 & B789s are for. I suppect it will become the airframe of choice for Australia to Asia Pacific.

See:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=7000nm%40syd&MS=wls&DU=nm

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: parapente
Posted 2013-06-18 05:23:25 and read 46556 times.

Re Reply 33.
Yup thats' the million dollar question "about" 7,000 Nm is too vague (although I appreciate that perhaps they have to be). A new semi-levered landing gear . Most people have said that considering the weight it will also have to be beefed up at the same time (no surprise there). Range is such a hard thing to pin down as configs vary so much as do T/O and flying conditions (hot/high/wind with/against etc).

What will the drop off of the curve look like depending on load. Steep? All depends on total weight of course. But there might be some severe trade offs I feel.

Having said that.... For those who will/do not need absolute range - people have correctly identified TATL. WOW!! replacing an old 744 with this and getting a 35% plus drop in fuel burn. Now for once that really is a "game changer"!

It completely removes the 333 (and various others) from any equasion going forward.There is nearly a thousand plane market right there! But it will all depend on the range / payload curve IMHO....Will be interesting to watch.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-06-18 05:28:15 and read 46296 times.

Seeing how the A333 kept growing the MTOW maybe the 787-10 will too with time, ending its life above 7500nm?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-06-18 05:48:47 and read 45660 times.

My guess is that the 787-10 is aimed for one market: replacing the A330-300 on most transatlantic and transpacific routes, but with way lower CASM. This could be the plane multiple European charter airlines are looking for--and Delta may use it to expand transatlantic and flights to South America from JFK and ATL. In short, by 2020 airlines of the TUI group may be using it to fly from Europe to east coast USA and Caribbean resort destinations.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: lutfi
Posted 2013-06-18 06:08:03 and read 44705 times.

Perfect for CX to replace A330 regionally in 10 years time

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Vhqpa
Posted 2013-06-18 06:24:03 and read 44056 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 37):
Seeing how the A333 kept growing the MTOW maybe the 787-10 will too with time, ending its life above 7500nm?

I'm not too sure

The difference is when launched the A330 was intended to be a high density regional airliner primarily aimed at Asian carriers while the A340 was supposed to be the longhaul airliner. In that role the A330 didn't need a large MTOW. I'm not familiar with the structural improvements needed to subsequently raise the A330's MTOW to allow more fuel to be carried to the point where the current A330-300 basically has the same capabilities as the original A340-300 but the design was always based on the A330/A340 platform.

The 787-10X on the other hand is a further stretch of the 787 platform. While it probably will see MTOW rises I'm not sure they'll be as drastic as the A330. Even if it was possible it could impact of the sales of the 777-8X.



Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 27):

I think that Qantas given their previous comments (Alan Joyce) about wanting the B787-10 will definitely be a customer for this variant. It will be perfectly timed in terms of delivery for them to replace the A330-300's and fill the gap between the A380 and the B787-9's.

I can definitely see the 787-10X in QF's fleet as an eventual A330-300 replacement. If there's any aircraft in development that was made for their operations to SIN, HKG, TYO it's the 787-10X. But I think the order will be a couple of years away with EIS Early-Mid 2020's



Vhq.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-06-18 06:31:02 and read 43790 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 18):
I guess the 787-10 will be a very popular TATL shuttle aircraft, it´s really perfect for this role.

Among other things. This will be a very versatile aircraft. And she looks good in the process too.  .

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
“The 787-10 will be the most efficient jetliner in history,” Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner said at the launch event in Paris. “The 787-10 is 25% more efficient than airplanes of its size today and more than 10% better than anything being offered by the competition for the future.”
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l&p=1

Just marketing talk of course. She will lose big against the A359 on payload. Nothing new here.  
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
The usual marketing talk  

  .

Quoting PM (Reply 25):
Engines?

We know that the SQ (30) and BA (12) planes will have RR Trent 1000s.

We know that the GECAS planes (10) will have GEnxs.

The (30) for ALC will almost certainly be a mix of both engines.

Probably close to an even split sofar?

Quoting PM (Reply 25):
That leaves the (20) for UA. CO ordered their 787s with GE. UA hadn't / haven't made an engine choice for the order they placed. Had their fleet stayed all -8s and -9s, I'd have said it was a dead cert that they'd all have GE but something tells me that RR might have the edge on the -10. Fingers crossed.

Indeed, fingers crossed. But also GE will have an excellent engine offering, no doubt about that.  

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-06-18 06:39:00 and read 43433 times.

Seems like more of an A330 competitor, or even -- the second coming of the 787-3. It has a good range, but like 767, it may be used for short-range a lot.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: nomadd22
Posted 2013-06-18 06:45:49 and read 43102 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
the second coming of the 787-3

Sure. Other than 30% more cabin area and twice the range.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-18 06:54:35 and read 42631 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 41):
Just marketing talk of course. She will lose big against the A359 on payload. Nothing new here

I can't agree with that . MZFW for both are within a tonne or two of each other; M^2 in floor area and M^3 in cargo space are pretty similar. It will be the payload ( and fuel) that the A359's higher MTOW will allow it to lift that will give it an edge and that will be well out on the load/range curve.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-06-18 06:57:37 and read 42641 times.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 43):
Sure. Other than 30% more cabin area and twice the range.

Indeed. The 787-3 failed to get orders for its mission. It needed big changes. The range is impressive - but well below the 772. IMO we are looking at a new mid-hauler. Nothing wrong with that.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-06-18 07:07:04 and read 42177 times.

I could see DL with a mix of -9's and -10X's. The 9 has awesome range and a good passenger load. Let's see if DL takes the bait and jumps. Richard Anderson, in a recent CNBC interview said he would buy the 10 version today if it were available. Move now to get some good delivery slots.

If it turns out to be that popular I wonder if they will build at both Everett and South Carolina.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Miami
Posted 2013-06-18 07:33:39 and read 41094 times.

I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 07:34:50 and read 41164 times.

Quoting Miami (Reply 47):
I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.

Here you go:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...iner-stretch-may-be-too-small.html

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-06-18 07:39:59 and read 40904 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 19):
UA's purchase of 20 is a reasonable size order but I am surprised they decided to convert 10 of their other 787 orders. IMO they need more aircraft in this 300 seat area than the 60 they have to replace the 150 frames that they have on hand.

What the big rush United still has time and according to some articles UA is looking at the A351 and may people on A.netters including myself would like to see UA order a few 779X's.

So although this is a respectable order something tells me more widebody order will follow, maybe not at the Paris air show but UA will order or convert existing orders to larger variants. UA will need to replace a lot of aircraft; the 3 class 767 are already covered by an existing sUA order for 25 B788, the 744 fleet has an existing order for A359 but most people expect UA to convert that order to A351, and lastly sUA non-er 772 will need replacing by the end of this decade as well. I believe that most of sUA 772ER will probably be in the fleet till probably 2024-25 and then UA will start to retire the sUA 772ER and sCO 772ER and 764 are the youngest widebodies in the combined UA fleet so those planes will probably be in the fleet till at least 2027-28 before they start the retirement of the sCO fleet. (theses are just my estimates and I could be wrong). So as you can see with the current orders United has time, the only fleet that now needs an appropriate replacement order is the 744 fleet hopefully we will see an order during Paris and if not I'm hopeful that some type of order will be placed before years end.

However I think the 20 B787-10's are probably slated as replacements for UA non-er 772 which will be anywhere between 23-25 years old if I'm not mistaken by the time UA starts to take delivery of the 787-10.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: fun2fly
Posted 2013-06-18 07:43:13 and read 40643 times.

Quoting Miami (Reply 47):
I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.

Guess not, but you now have some backup to the probability that EK will place a 50-100 plane order for the 777-8x and 777-9x.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: planesntrains
Posted 2013-06-18 07:46:16 and read 40636 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 49):
What the big rush

Well, and 65 787's and the rumored 35 A350's are a HUGE 100 airframe commitment as it is.

I remember some years back reading the book "Airframe" (I think that's what it was called) and the premise was that an Asian carrier was going to order 100 widebodies in exchange for getting the wing manufacturing of a new airframe. All I could think was "100 widebodies? Ya, right!  " - boy how times have changed.  

-Dave

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Miami
Posted 2013-06-18 07:46:39 and read 40009 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 48):

Thank you for the link!

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-06-18 07:48:25 and read 40033 times.

Don't forget that the range is much closer to A330-200 range than A330-300 range (and far, far greater than 767-400ER range). This aircraft will do just fine on any transatlantic flight to Europe and on any transpacific flight to Japan, Korea, or PEK. It will also be a regional hauler par excellence for Asian airlines.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Miami
Posted 2013-06-18 07:48:44 and read 40013 times.

A more appropriate question would be: Would AA order the 787-10x. And maybe even the 777-8x, 777-9x..?

That's a question a lot of people would like to know.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-18 07:49:39 and read 40106 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 41):
Just marketing talk of course. She will lose big against the A359 on payload. Nothing new here.   

The key will be, however, how much of the A350-900's mission she can do and how much more efficiently can she do them?

Even at 250t MTOW, the A330-300 "loses big" to the 777-200ER on payload because the 777-200ER can lift 59 tons and fly it 5800nm at MZFW while the A330-300 can lift 48 tons and fly it around 4500nm at MZFW. However, Airbus says the A330-300 can still perform some 90% of the missions the 777-200ER can and do so a fair bit more economically and this is likely correct since most missions don't go out at MZFW so the extra payload and range the 77E offers is not critical.

If a 787-10 can do 90% of the missions an A350-900 can and do them more economically, we may see a repeat of the 777-200ER / A330-300 campaign where the A350-900 starts with strong orders and then trails off as the 787-10 becomes the desired choice for top-ups and replacements down the road.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-06-18 07:55:51 and read 39837 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):
Some BA 744 aircraft only have about 290 seats.
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):
35% has been speculated. BA has a bunch of 299 seat 744s.

That is an obscenely low number of seats! UA's config of F/J/E+/Y still manages 374!

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 19):
IMO they need more aircraft in this 300 seat area than the 60 they have to replace the 150 frames that they have on hand.

The only 300+seat aircraft United currently operates are the 744's and the high density 777s. The remaining of UA's 772s are only around 260-270.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-18 07:57:15 and read 39848 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):
Some BA 744 aircraft only have about 290 seats.
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 56):
That is an obscenely low number of seats!

BA flies a very premium-heavy configuration with large First and Business Class cabins.

You want "obscenely low" seat counts - Korean Air puts only 407 on an A380-800!  

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-06-18 08:07:34 and read 39272 times.

Quoting parapente (Reply 36):
It completely removes the 333 (and various others) from any equasion going forward.There is nearly a thousand plane market right there! But it will all depend on the range / payload curve IMHO....Will be interesting to watch.

It doesnt remove the market because its years away, and you have to take into account that the A330 is cheaper nad making money right now. In time we will see that companies will change their fleets for newer metal based on amortization, capital spending and operating costs. It will change but we are YEARS from throwing away current big twins to the scrappers.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38):
My guess is that the 787-10 is aimed for one market: replacing the A330-300 on most transatlantic and transpacific routes, but with way lower CASM. This could be the plane multiple European charter airlines are looking for--and Delta may use it to expand transatlantic and flights to South America from JFK and ATL. In short, by 2020 airlines of the TUI group may be using it to fly from Europe to east coast USA and Caribbean resort destinations.

Delta has stated that the /87 is way too expensive and they dont like capital spending (hence a ton on MDs they have)

Quoting Miami (Reply 47):
I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.

Same here but I guess the 787 is too small for them, they will order a nice 777X tailor made for them. ( a huge order)

Quoting Miami (Reply 54):
A more appropriate question would be: Would AA order the 787-10x. And maybe even the 777-8x, 777-9x..?

That's a question a lot of people would like to know.

Yep AA has to decide its fleet for the next 20 years... BIG QUESTION... what will they do?

Congrats Boeing !

TRB

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2013-06-18 08:11:16 and read 39140 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 48):
Quoting Miami (Reply 47):I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.
Here you go:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0....html

Well, TC says EK will have look at it, so it's not completely out of the running. But another order or conversion to the A350-1000 is more likely.

Quoting Miami (Reply 54):
A more appropriate question would be: Would AA order the 787-10x

Very likely indeed, they have a large fleet of 772s which aren't always used for their range.
However, AA has also 'inherited' an A350-800 order from US, which IMO could better be converted to -900s. That will take care of replacing the oldest 772s. AA/US having both 789 and A358 in their fleet doesn't seem the best mix I can think of.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-06-18 08:20:51 and read 38791 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 56):
That is an obscenely low number of seats! UA's config of F/J/E+/Y still manages 374!

Only an American (and maybe a Canadian) used to cramped long-haul would suggest that.

Premium carriers tend to have substantially lower density layouts.

[Edited 2013-06-18 08:21:32]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-06-18 08:41:32 and read 38004 times.

Interesting enough Boeing's 300-330 seat 787-10 has a sample configuration of 350:

First (Today's Business) @ 61: 18
Business (Today's PE): 58
Economy: 274
Total: 350

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: b777erj145
Posted 2013-06-18 09:14:45 and read 36736 times.

Did any of the mentioned airlines converted their 787-8/9 order to -10?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-18 09:15:27 and read 36808 times.

Quoting b777erj145 (Reply 62):
Did any of the mentioned airlines converted their 787-8/9 order to -10?

United converted ten.

The remainder look to be all new orders.

[Edited 2013-06-18 09:58:45]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunnyflyer
Posted 2013-06-18 09:21:13 and read 36549 times.

All this Hype from Boeing is lovely but I'm waiting for a flyable - 9, hope it Shows up faster than the - 8

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: b777erj145
Posted 2013-06-18 09:27:49 and read 36367 times.

One more question Singapore is to launch 787-10 right or it has changed? My memory is giving hard time in this exciting news.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 63):

Thanks. Congrats to Boeing and all the current airlines and would love to see more orders for this aircraft.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2013-06-18 09:53:59 and read 35352 times.

Wonder if AC will be placing options on the 787-10?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-06-18 09:55:22 and read 35448 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
However, Airbus says the A330-300 can still perform some 90% of the missions the 777-200ER can and do so a fair bit more economically and this is likely correct since most missions don't go out at MZFW so the extra payload and range the 77E offers is not critical.

If a 787-10 can do 90% of the missions an A350-900 can and do them more economically, we may see a repeat of the 777-200ER / A330-300 campaign where the A350-900 starts with strong orders and then trails off as the 787-10 becomes the desired choice for top-ups and replacements down the road.

The only observation I'd offer is that the cost and weight delta between a 777-200ER and an A330-300 is huge - 300 tonnes vs 233 tonnes - the 777 is nearly 30% heavier than the A330, and must cost WAY more to operate.

I think a cigarette paper will just about fit between the A350-900 and the 787-10 in terms of cost and capacity.
268 tonnes (for the A359) v 251 tonnes (for the 787-10) is 6.7% heavier, and it will have (very) slightly better SFC engines and that big wingspan.
The fuel burn delta is going to be extremely small, and if anything, more likely to be in favour of the A350-900.
The operating cost delta is going to be extremely small.
One flies a little bit more capacity less distance, and one flies a little less capacity more distance.

For me, these two planes will sit comfortably side-by side in the marketplace, completely unlike the A330 and 77E  

Rgds

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: art
Posted 2013-06-18 09:57:14 and read 35415 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
The will consume 40 kg/knm/m2 vs. 64 for the 744, I get this to be 37% more fuel efficient,

If the 787-1000 is 37% more fuel efficient than the 744, how many % more fuel efficient than the A388 is it? I do not recall reading anywhere that the A388 is 37% more fuel efficient than the 744.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2013-06-18 10:40:05 and read 33988 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 56):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 16):35% has been speculated. BA has a bunch of 299 seat 744s.

Which is almost exactly the same number as a BA 773ER - so if a 787-10 can replace a 744 it could also replace a 773. So I wonder what that says about the long term future for the 773 with BA?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-18 11:21:38 and read 32738 times.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 69):
So I wonder what that says about the long term future for the 773 with BA?

BA's comments have been very positive ("we wish we'd ordered them earlier").

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ghifty
Posted 2013-06-18 11:35:41 and read 32386 times.

Just realized that 787 - 10 = 777. Completely unintentional, probably, but just funny to point out!

Quoting astuteman (Reply 67):
For me, these two planes will sit comfortably side-by side in the marketplace, completely unlike the A330 and 77E

  

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 58):
Delta has stated that the /87 is way too expensive and they dont like capital spending (hence a ton on MDs they have)

If they're looking for fleet replacements and/or growth in the next 10ish years, what other options do they have? Order new 767s and A330s? While it's true that Delta seems to prefer purchasing used aircraft, I'm inclined to believe that they will order new aircraft if they have to. After all, look at their 77L, 772, future 739 fleet, and pre-NW fleet.

In any case, I'm sure Boeing will cut a deal for Delta. The very fact that Richard Anderson stated he'd buy the 787 but it's "too expensive" seems to be a statement directed at Boeing. They'd be hard-pressed not to respond favorably.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: delimit
Posted 2013-06-18 11:41:54 and read 32126 times.

DL doesn't prefer to purchase used; they prefer to purchase proven. They've bought all their 777s new. The used thing is entirely situational.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-18 11:46:04 and read 32036 times.

Quoting Miami (Reply 47):
I wonder if EK will purchase the 787-10x, now knowing it can carry 300-330 pax.

Quoting Clark.....We’ll certainly study the 787-10, but it could be a tad small for us,” Clark said in Paris, where he’s attending the world’s biggest aviation expo. The model would need to have a range of 4,000 nautical miles (7,400 kilometers) and be able to carry a 50-ton load to come into the reckoning for Emirates, he said.

This is what PIANO-X says about meeting Clark's 4000nm/50t parameter. It suggests that the 787-10 will breeze in at considerably less than MTOW.

{TOW 243368.kg./ OEW 136000.kg./ Fuel 57378.kg./ Payload 49990.kg.}

Range mode: fixed mach, step-up cruise

Climb schedule: 250./ 312.kcas/ mach 0.832 above 30772.feet

Cruise at Mach = 0.850 {FL 360 380}

ICA 36000.feet, 488.ktas, 284.kcas, CL=0.57, 60832.newtons/eng=MCR-18%
FCA 38000.feet, 488.ktas, 272.kcas, CL=0.51, 48426.newtons/eng=MCR-28%

Distance Time Fuelburn
(n.miles) (min.) (kg.)
_________ ______ _______
Climb 124. 18. 4212. {S.L to ICA}
Cruise 3748. 461. 44325. {ICA to ICA}
Descent 127. 21. 375. {ICA to S.L}
_________ ______ _______
Trip total 4000. 500. 48912.
Block total ====== 515. 49608.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ghifty
Posted 2013-06-18 11:47:16 and read 31898 times.

Quoting delimit (Reply 72):
DL doesn't prefer to purchase used; they prefer to purchase proven. They've bought all their 777s new. The used thing is entirely situational.

Minimise CapEx is what I was trying to say. If they need to spend more, it has to be justified.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: flyabr
Posted 2013-06-18 11:54:40 and read 31744 times.

Concerning Delta...one would think the dreamliner range of 8-9-10 would almost perfectly cover replacement of the 763, 764, A332, A333 and even 77E. If DL doesn't eventually order large numbers of 787s, i'll be shocked!  

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2013-06-18 12:23:12 and read 30926 times.

Quoting b777erj145 (Reply 65):

Singapore, United, British, Gecas and ALC are all the launch customers. The three airlines will all probably be the first operators, each for their respective regions.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-18 13:09:34 and read 29731 times.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 71):
In any case, I'm sure Boeing will cut a deal for Delta. The very fact that Richard Anderson stated he'd buy the 787 but it's "too expensive" seems to be a statement directed at Boeing. They'd be hard-pressed not to respond favorably.

This comment somewhat puzzles me in that NW ordered the plane in May 2005 when the list price was $61 million cheaper. I can only assume that by deferring deliveries so long, that original pricing is no longer available and DL would receive the standard discount off the list price at the time they firm their order. Factoring in list price inflation, I could see even with a 50% discount in 2020 DL could be paying close to what the full list price of the 787-8 was in 2005.



Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 73):
The model would need to have a range of 4,000 nautical miles (7,400 kilometers) and be able to carry a 50-ton load to come into the reckoning for Emirates, he said.

The 250-ton MTOW A330-300 can do that and the 787-10 will be more capable, so if Clark decides against the 787-10, payload-range won't be the reason.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 13:56:05 and read 28331 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 29):
we will probably see more acquisitions of 787s between now and then;
Quoting jayunited (Reply 49):
What the big rush United still has time

I agree. They do not need to do it all at once and the options will have the time slots that they will need come 2018-2020 when their fleet age is getting ripe. I made my comment before I found out that UA converted an additional 5 787-9 options in the fall giving them 19 on firm order and before it was really speculated that UA would purchase additional A359s after they convert their existing A359 orders to A351s. Looking for that announcement this week. That should give them plenty of coverage pre-2020.

Quoting Vhqpa (Reply 40):
While it probably will see MTOW rises I'm not sure they'll be as drastic as the A330.

The range improvements could come in the form of improved engine performance and not just MTOW bumps. I think the GENx and the Trent Ten could be worth more than the 3% SFC improvement come 2018 if GE9x and other technologies are backflowed into these programs.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
well below the 772. IMO we are looking at a new mid-hauler.

The 781 will fly 1,800nm further than the 772. If you meant the 77E then it can do over 90% of the 77E's range. A 7,000nm 13-hour, 'mid-hauler', we have come a long way.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 56):
The only 300 seat aircraft United currently operates are the 744's

My quote was around '300 seat aircraft'; meaning the 'typical three class seating' 300; which is anything but typical. So 275-325 seat 787-9s, A359s, and 781s. All of which will have less than 300 in UA configuration (781 should be really close!).

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 69):
so if a 787-10 can replace a 744 it could also replace a 773.

It could but that is a long way off and BA will have the A351 or A388 to do that job (maybe even a couple 777-9s). Although the 781 has a nominal seating between 300-330 seats the equivalent low density high premium seating on their 747s applied to the 781 would be approximately 235 seats with 65 premium seats vs 84 on the 747. No one is suggesting that it is a 1:1 swap just that on certain routes it could provide better economics.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-06-18 14:09:32 and read 28033 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 33):
The value ascribed to him is that of the 789. PIANO-X suggests to me that it will need close to 254t to make the ~7100nm range at max passenger load. I have to believe there is more to come on this number.

You have the info in Karels picture, B says you get 7000nm with 300 pax + bags, now add the seats for another 23 and their pax + bags weight (about 155kg each) and you will get your nominal range (around 7600nm). The MTOW will stay at 250.8t according to B .

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-18 14:28:55 and read 27542 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 79):
now add the seats for another 23
Quoting ferpe (Reply 79):
you will get your nominal range (around 7600nm)

Wait, wut, you add more weight and the range goes up?  

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: delimit
Posted 2013-06-18 15:03:50 and read 26703 times.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 74):
Minimise CapEx is what I was trying to say. If they need to spend more, it has to be justified.

That I agree with, and I also agree that RA's comment was a fine example of negotiating through the press.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 77):
This comment somewhat puzzles me in that NW ordered the plane in May 2005 when the list price was $61 million cheaper. I can only assume that by deferring deliveries so long, that original pricing is no longer available and DL would receive the standard discount off the list price at the time they firm their order. Factoring in list price inflation, I could see even with a 50% discount in 2020 DL could be paying close to what the full list price of the 787-8 was in 2005.

That, or they want a lot more of them than the original order would cover, which, when you consider DL's size, I think is a given. The 787 series is a perfect fit for their network.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-06-18 15:16:24 and read 26399 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 80):
Quoting ferpe (Reply 79):
now add the seats for another 23
Quoting ferpe (Reply 79):
you will get your nominal range (around 7600nm)

Wait, wut, you add more weight and the range goes up?  


I think he meant 6700nm lol.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-06-18 16:06:57 and read 25425 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):
The 781 will fly 1,800nm further than the 772. If you meant the 77E then it can do over 90% of the 77E's range. A 7,000nm 13-hour, 'mid-hauler', we have come a long way.

Indeed. It is an amazingly capabable mid-hauler  

Airlines will need something more capable than it somewhere in their fleets. At least, most prospective customers will. But this airplane will do a particular job, and do it well. What that job is... how it shakes out... will be fun to watch.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ORDFan
Posted 2013-06-18 16:20:01 and read 25172 times.

Am I the only one that's surpised that the MTOW for the 787-10 is the same as for the 787-9? How can this be a good thing, given the operating empty weight it surely going to be higher than the -9??

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-18 16:28:11 and read 25007 times.

Quoting ORDFan (Reply 84):
Am I the only one that's surpised that the MTOW for the 787-10 is the same as for the 787-9?

It appears that the 787-9's MTOW is already near the limit of what the landing gear is designed to handle so that limits the 787-10's MTOW.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: morrisond
Posted 2013-06-18 16:31:16 and read 24895 times.

Or they have continued to find more weight savings and with another 3-4 years of development they are confident they can find more to make a 7,000NM Aircraft without increasing MTOW

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-06-18 16:32:11 and read 24864 times.

Quoting ORDFan (Reply 84):
Am I the only one that's surpised that the MTOW for the 787-10 is the same as for the 787-9? How can this be a good thing, given the operating empty weight it surely going to be higher than the -9??

It's been assumed that the MTOW of the -10 was going to be the same as the -9 as Stich pointed out. The same MTOW is the reason why the -10 has considerably less range than the -9

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ORDFan
Posted 2013-06-18 16:43:26 and read 24661 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 85):
It appears that the 787-9's MTOW is already near the limit of what the landing gear is designed to handle so that limits the 787-10's MTOW.
Quoting waly777 (Reply 87):

It's been assumed that the MTOW of the -10 was going to be the same as the -9 as Stich pointed out. The same MTOW is the reason why the -10 has considerably less range than the -9

I thought I remembered a few years ago, when the -10 was on the drawing board, that there were early indications/discussion that the -10 would have a 6 wheel bogie to support - what I assumed - was a greater MTOW...?

Oh well... was hoping to see something approaching the A359's MTOW, but I guess the good folks at Boeing know better than I do  

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 17:11:53 and read 24072 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 83):
Airlines will need something more capable than it somewhere in their fleets.

I suspect many of them will, you're right. Maybe it is semantics: I see mid-haul as between 3-6 hour flights. I do not see that as being 781 territory and I don't think that is what you meant either. After all, its hard to get across the Atlantic in six hours. The narrow bodies have that locked up. I call long haul 6-14 hours and I think the 787 will be in the 6-11 hour (2,600nm to 5,500nm) trip lengths where the vast majority of wide body flights make their money.

I can still see some airlines not opting to go with anything bigger than the 787-10. Let the 787-9 do the really long flights and let the -10 do the high traffic routes. JAL and ANA may even go this route because in their low density routes NRT-JFK may be feasible and it would save them adding too large of a plane (777X) or a new type (A350).

Quoting ORDFan (Reply 88):
hoping to see something approaching the A359's MTOW

Why? If they can go to 7,000nm why add more weight to the structure to support a higher MTOW and burn more fuel for something most airlines may not need? This could definitely be something they work on come 2020 a HGW version of the 787-10 to rival the A359s legs and then the MTOW increase would be key. That could get exciting.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: frmrCapCadet
Posted 2013-06-18 17:17:19 and read 23971 times.

In a way the 78-10 could be the new 757, updated bigger and a fair amount more range.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-06-18 17:31:48 and read 23711 times.

Quoting ORDFan (Reply 88):
I thought I remembered a few years ago, when the -10 was on the drawing board, that there were early indications/discussion that the -10 would have a 6 wheel bogie to support - what I assumed - was a greater MTOW...?

Oh yea I remember that as well. If I remember correctly, aspire aviation was the source of that rumour. I guess the airlines preferred the original concept, just a simple stretch. They did say the main gear will be cantilevered, though still a 4 wheel bogie.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-06-18 17:33:51 and read 23783 times.

I think the 787-10 is to the 787 line what the 767-400ER is to the 767 line: more pax/cargo capacity, but with some sacrifice in range. the 787-10 may be intended for airline with semi-long range needs such as DL from JFK and ATL to South America and western Europe or European charter airlines flying to most of the USA or Caribbean destinations.

It should be noted that the likes of JL and NH may not be as interested in the 787-10 as much as you think. Both airlines already have substantial 777 fleets, and both JL and NH can starting in 2015 devote more of their 777 fleet to the HND-CTS and HND-FUK routes now that cities like Toyama and Kanazawa can be reached by Shinkansen with the new Hokuriku Shinkansen line.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ghifty
Posted 2013-06-18 17:50:49 and read 23354 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 92):

I think the 787-10 is to the 787 line what the 767-400ER is to the 767 line: more pax/cargo capacity, but with some sacrifice in range.

Thankfully it already has more customers and more orders!

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-06-18 18:12:58 and read 23014 times.

Does anyone know how Boeing comes up with the 323 seat number? Am I missing something? The sample configuration is way more seats than this....

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 18:35:46 and read 22674 times.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 90):
In a way the 78-10 could be the new 757

Could be. Especially if an airline does not have an A321 and their MAX/NEO does not have enough legs.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 91):
If I remember correctly, aspire aviation was the source of that rumour.

Boeing did their share to feed the rumor as well as recently as late last year. Here is a thread about a flight global article that Ferpe caught wind of:
787-10X To Have 6 Wheel MLG (by ferpe Dec 3 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 92):
It should be noted that the likes of JL and NH may not be as interested in the 787-10 as much as you think.

I would think that they will need replacements to the 77As and 773s before the decade is out because of all of the cycles. 787-9s won't be able to do all of it IMO. They may not buy a tremendous amount but it is hard to not see them as buyers.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 94):
Does anyone know how Boeing comes up with the 323 seat number?

(18/58/247) in (F/J/Y) at (61/39/32) pitch. The 350 figure you see/saw I think is because the 247 in Y has two different seat pitch assumptions and the wording is cut off.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: iMissPiedmont
Posted 2013-06-18 18:55:46 and read 22306 times.

Interesting that they stuck with the-10, it seems to me a bit awkward to say 787-1022 or 787-1033, etc.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: JOYA380B747
Posted 2013-06-18 19:03:02 and read 22227 times.

787 -8 -9 -10

777 -8x -9x

A350 -900 -1000

Are customers going to be spoilt for choice?


  

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: brons2
Posted 2013-06-18 19:10:12 and read 22071 times.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 91):
Oh yea I remember that as well. If I remember correctly, aspire aviation was the source of that rumour. I guess the airlines preferred the original concept, just a simple stretch. They did say the main gear will be cantilevered, though still a 4 wheel bogie.

Still leaves room for a 787-10 IGW/ER later on with a 6 wheel bogie.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-18 19:15:24 and read 22035 times.

Quoting iMissPiedmont (Reply 96):
Interesting that they stuck with the-10, it seems to me a bit awkward to say 787-1022 or 787-1033, etc.

I believe that Boeing no longer officially uses customer codes with the 787 family.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-06-18 19:54:23 and read 21503 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 73):
This is what PIANO-X says about meeting Clark's 4000nm/50t parameter. It suggests that the 787-10 will breeze in at considerably less than MTOW.

yes indeed, for "Clark's mission", the 787-10 will beat it by ~ 800nm. 10hr missions are about what it will do w/ a 50t load. Not too shabby.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=4500nm%40DXB&MS=wls2&DU=mi

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: PM
Posted 2013-06-18 20:35:34 and read 20854 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 30):
Unfortunately not...

Ah. Oh well. That was a short-lived dream!  

Thanks for the link.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-06-18 20:40:00 and read 20957 times.

Quoting morrisond (Reply 86):
Or they have continued to find more weight savings and with another 3-4 years of development they are confident they can find more to make a 7,000NM Aircraft without increasing MTOW
Quoting ORDFan (Reply 88):
I thought I remembered a few years ago, when the -10 was on the drawing board, that there were early indications/discussion that the -10 would have a 6 wheel bogie to support - what I assumed - was a greater MTOW...?

I think the press and we have jointly tried to make a hen out of a feather, B have appearantly been consistent and focused all the time. B leaked that the 787-10 was a 6700nm straight prolongation of the -9, the shorter range coming from the increased OEW (6-8t) eating into the available fuel you can carry with a full 323 pax cabin and the additional drag you get from a longer fuselage.

Godfather (Steven Udvar-Hazey) then asked for another 300nm range and Guy Norris of AW rumored that B was looking into 6 wheel bogies. I contributed to putting 2+2 together and getting 5  so then we started discussing a hen of 7000nm with 6 wheels  Wow!. To our defense it was logical, you don't get an extra 300nm without increasing the MTOW some 4-5t and per Sticth the MLG was good for 253t max. Also B (read Randy) were starting to put 7000nm on their briefing slides   .

We should have known better then believing Randy was telling us a straight story  Wow! , he is in marketing and that is where you solve such problems like 7000nm on a 251t 787-10, you suddenly say 300-330 pax and 7000nm.    As soon as we see an OEM say "from-to" we shall now be smart enough to know that the higher range goes with the lower pax count, like for the -9: from 250-290 pax and 8500nm means 8500nm with 250 pax. With 290 pax it is still 8000nm    .

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: aryonoco
Posted 2013-06-18 21:53:29 and read 20053 times.

I think this aircraft will be very popular, way more popular than the launch order book shows.

This will be one of the main carriers TATL and intra-Asia. Those are two big markets in the aviation world.

The comparison with A359 will be fascinating. The two are different enough to not compete directly with each other, and yet similar enough that anyone who looks at one will look at the other as well.

It's an interesting time to watch the fluctuating WB market. So different from the stale NB one.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: columba
Posted 2013-06-18 21:59:37 and read 19996 times.

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 103):
I think this aircraft will be very popular, way more popular than the launch order book shows.

Me, too, most likely it will become the most popular model of the 787 at some point.

Still hoping for LHto order the -10X, like it much better than the A350.  

[Edited 2013-06-18 22:11:45]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-06-18 22:31:39 and read 19589 times.

LH and SK would two possible -10 customers, both have shown interest in this model above the other 787 models. Maybe SK wont need anymore range than it offers? I for one think the 789 would be great for SKs A343 replacements. The -10 is a bit larger and SK is not really growing.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-18 23:28:29 and read 18978 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
Guy Norris of AW rumored

I did not help by attributing it to Boeing from flight global article instead of GN from AW editorializing  .

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
300-330 pax and 7000nm

It does appear that is what is going on. Sadly. But how many airlines are really going to put 330 seat in 781s and want to fly it 7,000nm? High density = LCC = Not Economical for 13 hr missions anyway. 7knm is probably more indicative of realistic seating. We all drank the kool-aid.

SuH is still happy (wasn't it always 553,000lbs?):
"Boeing managed to overcome Hazy initial concerns about range by increasing it to 7,000 naut. mi. Hazy said that was addressed by introducing a slightly higher maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 553,000 pounds. Some reinforcements in the wing to body attachment area and on the landing gear were needed to accommodate the increased weight. Engine thrust will also be slightly higher than originally planned." http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_06_18_2013_p0-589320.xml

But here is an interesting quote:
"The range covers 97% of the wide-body city pairs of the world, Hazy pointed out."

With all of the 77W, A340, 77E, 747, 77L, and A380s out there with longer range its interesting that the figure still comes out at 97%. Would love to see that calculus.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-06-19 00:43:15 and read 18227 times.

Where will these lease orders end up?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-19 00:44:18 and read 18323 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 106):
But how many airlines are really going to put 330 seat in 781s and want to fly it 7,000nm?

Jackpot. As A330-300 replacement, the seat count in the real world will be around today's A330s.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: trent1000
Posted 2013-06-19 02:10:18 and read 17481 times.

So UA will have to maintain their 744s for another 5 years or so. This is not a problem per se, but means extra fuel costs until they can burn less with new aircraft models.
Can we assume the 748i will cease to attract any more passenger frame orders?

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2013-06-19 02:26:17 and read 17371 times.

This is gonna be in the fleet for NZ I reckon. 763/77E/77W/744 replaced by one 789/78X fleet = huge savings and hopefully a standardised product finally. I just wish they had the 788 as well

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: jupiter2
Posted 2013-06-19 02:36:21 and read 17351 times.

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 109):
Can we assume the 748i will cease to attract any more passenger frame orders?

You do realise that KE ordered 5 x 748i yesterday ?

This aircraft I believe will be a sensation for it's operators, the economics look to be sensational (save the purchase price) and for an airline like QF, it's going to reach every Asian destination that they currently, or are likely to serve easily, while carrying a substantial payload. As for JQ, with a mixed fleet of 789's and 7810's will give a degree of seasonal flexibility while carrying more, cheaper, than their current 332's. Personally, I can see 6-8 7810's with JQ and upwards of 20 in the QF fleet by 2025.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-06-19 04:34:22 and read 16928 times.

Talk of BA replacing their 77Ws with the 787-10 seems a little premature when BA's oldest 77W is not yet four years old and when BA will take delivery of two more 77Ws later this year and another two next year.

It is also worth noting that The BA Source is reporting that the BA commitment to 12 787-10 is part of the 18 options taken out on 27 September 2007 (with the airline's order for six 787-8s and 18 787-9s) that was firmed into the order for 18 787s announced on 3 April this year.

We all tend to look at orders being direct replacements for existing aircraft. In the case of BA we are looking at their fleet of 744s, the routes that they operate them on and their cabin configurations. But it is worth remembering that BA placed their opening order for the 744 a few months before the airline was privatised. That order for 16 aircraft (with 12 options) was placed in August 1986. At that time it was stated that range was the prime reason for its selection, not its size.

Since then much has changed. For example initially BA configured its 744s for 377 passengers (F18 / J74 / M285).

In 1995 with the launch of J Class cradle seats the configuration was changed to between 400 and 407 passengers (typically F18 / J55 / M332).

Later with the launch of lie-flat J Class seats in 2000 the direction was reversed, The 744 fleet was reconfigured to carry either 364 passengers ('Lo J', configuration: F14/ J38 / W36 /M276) or 291 passengers ('Hi J' configuration: F14 / J70 / W30 / Y177).

At the time of the launch of their second generation lie-flat J Class seat in around 1997 the 'Lo J' configured aircraft were reconfigured to the 'Mid J' configuration of 337 passengers ( F14 / J52 / W36 / Y235).

So externally the BA 744s have only changed their livery but have otherwise remained constant for 24 years, internally the number of passengers that the type carries has constantly evolved to meet changes to both the airline's strategies and circumstances and changes in the market place and customer needs.

These changes include, for example, the purchase of BD and its LHR slots. This purchase, at least in theory, allows BA to adapt its strategies because the pressures on the airline as it operates out of a slot bound hub are now slightly different. So the purchase of BD might impact the airline's long haul aircraft selection.

One-for-one replacement of the existing fleet is possible but by no means certain.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Aviaponcho
Posted 2013-06-19 05:01:13 and read 16742 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):

And the 787-8 with is 7620 to 8200 Nm is indeed in the same ballpark as A330-200 242 t with the samel payload
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...330family/a330-200/specifications/
7500 Nm in a 3 class layout and 240 t MTOW should be near 7620 Nm with 242 t

Indeed both airplanes are 7200 Nm bird with "typical nowadays" 2 class layout

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-19 05:45:55 and read 16503 times.

List price for the 787-10 is $290 million.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2013-06-19 07:21:36 and read 16086 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 92):
I think the 787-10 is to the 787 line what the 767-400ER is to the 767 line: more pax/cargo capacity, but with some sacrifice in range. the 787-10 may be intended for airline with semi-long range needs such as DL from JFK and ATL to South America and western Europe or European charter airlines flying to most of the USA or Caribbean destinations.

I think the 787-10 is exactly the type of airplane LH has been asking for, ie sufficient range to fly the bulk of their routes, avoiding the OEW and thrust increases needed to push out to an 8000nm design range.

Now let's see if they will buy it.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-06-19 08:22:20 and read 15785 times.

So all three airline/airline group launch customers have on their order/commitment books all three models of the Dreamliner.
*United: 788-36, 789-9, 791-20. Total=65.
SIA/Scoot: 788-10, 789-10, 781-30. total=50.
BA/IAG: 788-8, 789-16, 781-12. Total=36.

*pls correct if the numbers are off.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2013-06-19 10:13:30 and read 15476 times.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 116):

Continental ordered 11 787-8's and 14 787-9's with delivery starting early in the production run. United then in 2009 ordered 25 787-8's with a delivery time frame starting no earlier than 2016 and ending around 2019 with the ability to defer any aircraft later.

I believe the 10 conversions will come from the United ordered aircraft as the -10 would fit in that time frame with really no adjustment to the schedule. United said 2018 for first -10's.

We won't know for sure until the order shows up on Boeing's site.

Ps, when did United order five additional aircraft? Can't say I remember hearing that.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-06-19 10:20:16 and read 15433 times.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 116):
*United: 788-36, 789-9, 791-20. Total=65.
Quoting flightsimer (Reply 117):
Ps, when did United order five additional aircraft? Can't say I remember hearing that.

It's probably going to be 788-26, 789-14, 781-20. Although I bet we see more of UA's orders moved to 789s from 788's in the far out deliveries. Afterall the 788 is the new 762.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-06-19 11:06:49 and read 15209 times.

I still think the 788 is the best aircraft to replace the 763. Its a much larger capacity jump from a 763 to a 789 than from a 763 to a 788.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-06-19 11:29:25 and read 15058 times.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 116):
*United: 788-36, 789-9, 791-20. Total=65.
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 118):
It's probably going to be 788-26, 789-14, 781-20

Is there an official source anywhere for these numbers? Seems like all we know is the original order (sCO 11 788s, sUA 25 788s, sCO 14 789s), supposedly 5 options converted last year (no model specified?), and a net of 10 addtional 78J.

Would seem then that the only thing we can be sure of is:

788: Between 26-41
789: Between 4-19
78J: 20

-5 net 788/789 (10 conversions to -10, plus 5 options converted last year).

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-19 11:57:53 and read 14936 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 108):
As A330-300 replacement, the seat count in the real world will be around today's A330s

At 4.6m longer than the A333 it will seat one more seat per row in coach (if they go 9Y), 1 more row of J, and 3-4 rows of Y give or take.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 114):
List price for the 787-10 is $290 million.

The -9 is 18% more expensive than the -8 and it looks like the -10 will be 19% more than the -9.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 116):
BA/IAG: 788-8, 789-16, 781-12. Total=36.

There should be another 6 floating out there somewhere. BA exercised 18 options and exercised only 12 for the 787-10.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 117):
Ps, when did United order five additional aircraft?

I have read that they executed 5 options in the fall. Still no word on which variant but its hard to imagine that they won't all be for the -9.

Quoting Prost (Reply 119):
I still think the 788 is the best aircraft to replace the 763. Its a much larger capacity jump from a 763 to a 789 than from a 763 to a 788.

It depends on where trip costs shake out. If the 787-8 has similar trip costs to the -9 then those extra seats, even if you do not fill them, come for free. The -9 carries carries 40 more seats, flies 500nm further than the -8, and does that carrying less fuel than the -8 so it certainly appears that the -9 is going to be the efficient machine of the two. Once some of the -9's special sauce is back filled into the -8 and it gets lighter there may be a further separation on trip costs; in which case I absolutely agree. In the mean time, a slightly overweight girlfriend is better than no girlfriend  .

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-06-19 12:01:53 and read 14906 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 121):
It depends on where trip costs shake out. If the 787-8 has similar trip costs to the -9 then those extra seats, even if you do not fill them, come for free. The -9 carries carries 40 more seats, flies 500nm further than the -8, and does that carrying less fuel than the -8 so it certainly appears that the -9 is going to be the efficient machine of the two. Once some of the -9's special sauce is back filled into the -8 and it gets lighter there may be a further separation on trip costs; in which case I absolutely agree. In the mean time, a slightly overweight girlfriend is better than no girlfriend .

We'll have to ask Kanye West how that equation worked out.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-06-19 12:12:50 and read 14840 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 106):
It does appear that is what is going on. Sadly. But how many airlines are really going to put 330 seat in 781s and want to fly it 7,000nm? High density = LCC = Not Economical for 13 hr missions anyway. 7knm is probably more indicative of realistic seating
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 106):
"The range covers 97% of the wide-body city pairs of the world, Hazy pointed out."

While I fully agree with your observations, I do believe one (small) factor is now being overlooked: cargo.

While most airlines indeed won’t use the full passenger and range capacity to its full extent, the remaining potential is usually used up by cargo. This is where the 787-10 will be facing challenge; at range there will not be much potential for cargo (WEIGHT wise). Ironically, since it is a double stretch without going to triple bogey, cargo VOLUME is going to be very very impressive.

Useful range with full pax and nominal cargo will be considerably lower than the advertised range, I wonder what full pax, full cargo range will be?

However I do agree that it will be a wonderful solution for routes (Trans Atlantic) where 4000-5000 nm would be sufficient. I do not think that any airplane comes even close to the CASM at these kind of missions. And there are plenty of those to make the -10 pretty successful!

PW100

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-19 12:15:53 and read 14845 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 121):
If the 787-8 has similar trip costs to the -9 then those extra seats, even if you do not fill them, come for free.

At 6600nm distance , 34t payload , the 789 burns ~10% more fuel than the 788.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-06-19 12:25:35 and read 14789 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 123):
However I do agree that it will be a wonderful solution for routes (Trans Atlantic) where 4000-5000 nm would be sufficient. I do not think that any airplane comes even close to the CASM at these kind of missions. And there are plenty of those to make the -10 pretty successful!

The -10 should be ideal for Europe- U.S. trips for example which top out at roughly 5,700 miles. At that range with the possible exception of west-bound in the Winter (headwinds), it should be able to go out at max passengers and cargo. If you look at that range band, that should take care of most of the popular routes between Europe and N. America, all of Africa as well as India. It should also take care of the U.S. to Japan and Korea. HKG, AKL and SYD are too far of course but passenger count-wise, this a/c should be able to handle all of the popular routes for the legacies and clean up on regional service for the likes of Singapore etc.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-06-19 13:40:14 and read 14514 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 125):

I really don't think Boeing or the customers are going to be able to resist MTOW creep on the -10. I really hope they do manage to resist, at least on the first iteration. Just get the base model out of the door then work on an HGW version later...which will eventually become the standard model...much like what happened with the 777.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-19 13:56:19 and read 14831 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 123):
Useful range with full pax and nominal cargo will be considerably lower than the advertised range, I wonder what full pax, full cargo range will be?

This was what Clark was alluding to in his 50t /4000nm statement. Cargo capacity will be volume limited at about 19t based on a typical density of 160 kg/m3. passenger load will be about 30.7 t

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-19 14:13:27 and read 14803 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 122):
ask Kanye West

Its not working out that well  
Quoting PW100 (Reply 123):
factor is now being overlooked: cargo.

Very true. Its cargo that will probably relegate it to 5,500nm or less. I do not think we will see too many 6,000nm missions.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 123):
cargo VOLUME is going to be very very impressive.

Maybe they can ship lots of flowers...

Quoting PW100 (Reply 123):
I wonder what full pax, full cargo range will be?

I am sure Sunrisevalley can put that together. This gives us an idea:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 73):
This is what PIANO-X says about meeting Clark's 4000nm/50t parameter. It suggests that the 787-10 will breeze in at considerably less than MTOW.
Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 124):
789 burns ~10% more fuel than the 788

I am surprised by that number. Thought it would be in the single digits. Hopefully with improvements, the -8 can make that figure even bigger so it can drive further sales down the road (and hope the -9 can keep improving to try to prevent it! Inter-family rivalry!).

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 125):
The -10 should be ideal for Europe

Yes, Europe in general, not just Europe to the US. It is difficult to find a relevant city pair outside of 5,500nm of CDG/LHR/FRA.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=5500nm%40cdg&MS=wls&DU=mi

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 126):
I really hope they do manage to resist, at least on the first iteration

Me too. If they do just a low MTOW version that was just lean and mean and then down the road come up with a way to compete better with the A350-900 on range/payload beyond 5,500nm, they could have an advantage because of the lower starting OEW. Its a tough battle but you are right, I think it starts with a super efficient frame and then go from there. Obviously Airbus is not going to sit still and that frame will continue to improve undoubtedly.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-06-19 14:54:21 and read 14623 times.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 59):
Well, TC says EK will have look at it, so it's not completely out of the running. But another order or conversion to the A350-1000 is more likely.

The minimum size of an airplane which suits EK is getting up and up. If even the B787-10 is not big enough, they do not have much choices left. Their fleet will start with the A350-1000 for sure if they really think that the B787-10 might be a bit small. That conversion order for the A350 is then a sure thing.  .

Quoting astuteman (Reply 67):
For me, these two planes will sit comfortably side-by side in the marketplace, completely unlike the A330 and 77E  

I think so too. But the B787-10 is a good offering. it will be appealing to many airlines, especially if they do not need the payload and the long range. The first 100 commitments are a strong and positive sign of that.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-19 16:37:08 and read 14330 times.

quote=tortugamon,reply=128]Very true. Its cargo that will probably relegate it to 5,500nm or less. I do not think we will see too many 6,000nm missions.[/quote]

Below is the payload/ range points for a 250.8t MTOW 131.5t OEW version. I believe max volume limited payload to be ~50t which will permit ~4900nm or taking winds out of the calculation , a 10hr 30 min timetable sector.


payload - Range points
----------------------
kg. n.miles

59500. 4048.
54829. 4462.
50158. 4892.
45487. 5331.
40816. 5780.
36145. 6237.
31474. 6701.
26803. 7182.
22131. 7674.
17460. 8176.
15520. 8263.
13580. 8350.
11640. 8432.
9700. 8523.
7760. 8614.
5820. 8706.
3880. 8797.
1940. 8890.
0. 8984.
--------------------
[

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-19 18:32:45 and read 14075 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 127):
Cargo capacity will be volume limited at about 19t based on a typical density of 160 kg/m3
Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 130):
I believe max volume limited payload to be ~50t which will permit ~4900nm or taking winds out of the calculation , a 10hr 30 min

Great information, thank you for running it. So 4,800+nm on full volume-limited payload. Theoretically the A359 would be able to carry more cargo than the 781 beyond that distance but as the 787-10 has four more LD3 positions (1 would be used for customer bags presumably?) if the cargo is average density or lower than it would be further out on the curve before the A359 would have a payload advantage. If they are both hauling flowers the A359 may not have an advantage until 7000nm   On some missions 19t of cargo might be tough to pull off in both directions too.

Let me know if I have that right. What is your theory on this Sunrise? (1) Is Udvar Hazy content that he should get his 7,000nm because his customers probably won't seat more than 300, (2) he did not get what he wanted but wanted to save face and did not want to disparage Boeing on the up beat day, or (3) they are sandbagging the figures and he really will get the 7,000nm 330-seat figure once Boeing tweaks the levers that they can (lower MEW, higher MTOW/reinforce MLG, or SFC)?

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-19 18:38:01 and read 14102 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 131):
Theoretically the A359 would be able to carry more cargo than the 781 beyond that distance but as the 787-10 has four more LD3 positions (1 would be used for customer bags presumably?) if the cargo is average density or lower than it would be further out on the curve before the A359 would have a payload advantage.

The 787-10 should not need to dedicate more than two LD3 positions to passenger bags (and might get away with one for missions not to/from North America as many of those assign passenger baggage allowance by weight and volume and not by piece).

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: BLRAviation
Posted 2013-06-20 08:37:55 and read 13244 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 28):
Does it have the range for Qantas?

As a replacement for the A333s, absolutely. A more simpler method would be to say flights up to 10~11 hours would be the limit for the 78J. From Sydney pretty much an arc from Japan to Singapore. I am not too sure it will make it to the Indian subcontinent, may be some of the more technical a.netters can translate the sales figures of 7,000nm, range to realistic flying conditions.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: blueshamu330s
Posted 2013-06-20 11:33:37 and read 12966 times.

Talk of BA placing B787-10s in Gatwick, along other quite drastic moves to be announced, in a concerted effort to make Gatwick ops profitable...

Rgds

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: planesntrains
Posted 2013-06-20 12:32:45 and read 12788 times.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 134):
Talk of BA placing B787-10s in Gatwick, along other quite drastic moves to be announced, in a concerted effort to make Gatwick ops profitable...

Well, I hope they're patient. It's going to be the end of the decade before they have a quantity of them to help. Hope they have an interim plan.  

-Dave

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-20 12:51:04 and read 12716 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 131):
Theoretically the A359 would be able to carry more cargo than the 781 beyond that distance but as the 787-10 has four more LD3 positions (1 would be used for customer bags presumably?) if the cargo is average density or lower than it would be further out on the curve before the A359 would have a payload advantage. If they are both hauling flowers the A359 may not have an advantage until 7000nm On some missions 19t of cargo might be tough to pull off in both directions too.

Your numbers look about right , effectively the -10 has a 2-LD-3 advantage over the A359 or about 1.4t after allowing for baggage. But cargo is not carried in LD- 3's but rather on PMC pallets which are slightly less efficient. I have been told that the baggage calculation to get the LD-3 number might be a bit high . I am told of a carrier that for about a slightly less than 365 seat 77W they have cargo space for 10 PMC's and 2LD3's for about 24t which they haul pretty much every day over an 8hr 30min sector.
The 1:6 rule in air cargo pricing assures a revenue equivalent to ~164kg/m3. Some days they will have the volume but the weight might be to the carriers advantage.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-06-20 22:44:04 and read 12140 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 132):
The 787-10 should not need to dedicate more than two LD3 positions

Even better.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 136):
The 1:6 rule in air cargo pricing assures a revenue equivalent to ~164kg/m3.

Good to know. Thanks.

I started another thread about the 787-10 stretch. By looking at some of the detailed pictures Boeing has released I think I can tell that Boeing is planning on changing the way that they stretch the frame versus how they did it with 787-9. This change ultimately makes it a lot closer to fitting into the dreamlifter meaning that it could be assembled in Everett. Still not all the way there based on my calculations but its close.

Check it out and let me know if you have any comments. 787-10 Stretches Different Sections? / FAL In WA? (by tortugamon Jun 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: jupiter2
Posted 2013-06-21 05:36:45 and read 11864 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 136):
But cargo is not carried in LD- 3's but rather on PMC pallets which are slightly less efficient.

Of course cargo is carried in LD-3's, thousands of them everyday, I know, I use to load and unload them. PMC pallets are better for bulky items, but enclosed containers are preferred. Mail, courier material especially will be in containers, but shippers love them as they are easy to load, far more secure and easy to transport to/from the airports.

But 19 ton of freight is a lot of freight, most routes will not pick up that much freight on each flight, especially if there are multiple frequencies each day, such as TATL, if airlines can get that much on each flight, the yield managers will be smiling.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-06-21 07:57:02 and read 11572 times.

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 138):
Of course cargo is carried in LD-3's, thousands of them everyday, I know, I use to load and unload them. PMC pallets are better for bulky items, but enclosed containers are preferred. Mail, courier material especially will be in containers, but shippers love them as they are easy to load, far more secure and easy to transport to/from the airports.

Thanks for this . Nothing better than getting the facts from the hands on guy. Another hands on guy tells me he loads a 77W almost every day with 10 PMC and 2LD-3's. So I guess it can be both ways.   

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-06-23 04:36:35 and read 10902 times.

Quite a predictable plane to launch, as Boeing do seem to favour the simple stretch first, followed by the more comprehensive revisions to create a more capable version later, e.g.
743 (simple SUD model) followed by 744
763 (simple stretch) followed by 763ER
773 (simple stretch) followed by 773ER

I guess the difference now, if that the base 787-10 model is so capable anyway, that there is less need for the 787-10ER model, and they're still hoping for 777-8 sales to cater for that market anyway.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-23 04:42:00 and read 10935 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
The spec sheet given by Karel (pls repost) is strange,, I think someone at the B marketing department is in trouble (210 to 250 pax????, 57m, 228t and so on, this is the 788 spec !!!!!)
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 4):
Seems like their developers were in a hurry to launch the website. Let's wait a bit longer until they have fixed the spec sheet.

ferpe, the updates slides are finally online. Range 6800 to 7000 nm, 323 seats in a 3-class configuration.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2uhmwjk.jpg





http://oi44.tinypic.com/34y8d3m.jpg

[Edited 2013-06-23 04:48:41]

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-23 04:51:15 and read 10871 times.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 61):
Interesting enough Boeing's 300-330 seat 787-10 has a sample configuration of 350:

First (Today's Business) @ 61: 18
Business (Today's PE): 58
Economy: 274
Total: 350

I agree it's a bit confusing but it means that 27 of the 247 economy seats have a 31" pitch instead of 32".

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-06-23 04:53:39 and read 10887 times.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 134):
Talk of BA placing B787-10s in Gatwick, along other quite drastic moves to be announced, in a concerted effort to make Gatwick ops profitable...Rgds

Perfect to replace the GE 772s on holiday routes to the Caribbean.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: SInGAPORE_AIR
Posted 2013-06-23 05:24:23 and read 10723 times.

That sample configuration is a bit useless isn't it ? 61" and 39" seat pitches in 'First' and 'Business' respectively.... really (?)

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-23 05:31:07 and read 10760 times.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 144):
That sample configuration is a bit useless isn't it ? 61" and 39" seat pitches in 'First' and 'Business' respectively.... really (?)

Here is an interesting article about Boeing's default cabin configurations:

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2012...-the-advertising-battle-commenced/

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: SInGAPORE_AIR
Posted 2013-06-23 08:33:44 and read 10368 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 145):
Here is an interesting article about Boeing's default cabin configurations:

Thanks; an interesting read which prompts a debate (but elsewhere - I don't wish to hijack this thread).

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-07-07 00:25:49 and read 9133 times.

Looks like Oman Air is also very keen at converting 3 of its 6 B787-800s on order with Boeing to the largest -100X version as officially announced by their CEO

http://www.ameinfo.com/oman-air-upgrade-787s-347653

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2013-07-08 18:53:55 and read 7114 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 147):
Looks like Oman Air is also very keen at converting 3 of its 6 B787-800s on order with Boeing to the largest -100X

I expect that this will happen for many airlines with existing 788/789 orders due for delivery in the longer term.

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: 777sigfan
Posted 2013-07-09 11:43:57 and read 6288 times.

Should make a good 772 replacement as well right?

At that length that should be a very sharp looking aircraft!

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: columba
Posted 2013-07-09 12:00:45 and read 6211 times.

Interesting quote by Lufthansa´s CEO Christoph Franz regarding the recent 787 problems:

Quote:

Franz said that the Dreamliner's worldwide grounding would not colour his judgement when it came to a Boeing-or- Airbus decision.

"These are problems which happen if you have a very innovative new generation of aircraft. You should expect something like this to happen. I am absolutely convinced (by) the time the first aircraft will be delivered to Lufthansa it will all be forgotten."
http://www.ausbt.com.au/lufthansa-eyes-airbus-a350-boeing-787-and-777x

Interesting that he says "will be delivered to Lufthansa", don´t want to read too much into it but it sounds promising  

PS the article is already a few weeks old published June 19th

Topic: RE: Boeing Launches The 787-10 Dreamliner
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-07-09 12:33:18 and read 5912 times.

That could also be interpreted to read that by the time LH took delivery, all of the teething problems will be in the past. An interesting choice of words, nonetheless. I always keep in mind when a non native English speaker uses English, no matter how good their English skills are, I give them some leeway for some slight mistakes, which this can very well be.


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