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Topic: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: dforce1
Posted 2013-07-10 07:52:41 and read 11236 times.

With the recent partial lifting of the ban on flights to Europe, Philippine Airlines has announced that it intends to restore direct flights from Manila to Europe as early as this September or October.

Ramon Ang, President of PAL said that London, Paris, Rome, and Amsterdam will be the first destinations.

Here are my questions:

1) When PAL last flew to London, did they fly to Heathrow or Gatwick? Which airport do you think they will be using for their upcoming flights. I heard a rumour they applied for slots at Gatwick. Can anyone confirm that?

2) What European destinations are likely to follow after the initial four announced above?

3) PAL will likely need to add to its long haul flight. Can we expect an A350, B777X, or B787 order from them in the near future? Which aircraft are they most likely to order?

Meanwhile, they have the recently delivered B777 aircraft and the ex-Iberia A340 aircraft.

Read More Here: http://www.philippineflightnetwork.c...pine-airlines-removed-from-eu.html

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: cipango
Posted 2013-07-10 12:55:56 and read 10723 times.

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):

If they want to start London as early as September they would more than likely be flying into Gatwick. Unless they got a BMI slot from BA, I don't think Heathrow is going to happen.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-07-10 13:17:39 and read 10619 times.

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):
When PAL last flew to London, did they fly to Heathrow or Gatwick? Which airport do you think they will be using for their upcoming flights. I heard a rumour they applied for slots at Gatwick. Can anyone confirm that?

Previous operations in the late 90s had been transferred from Gatwick to Heathrow operated by A340s.
I think it was just few days a week with a late afternoon arrival.

Given they are likely to attract almost exclusively O & D and VFR traffic Gatwick would be better than LHR on a cost basis.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-07-10 13:24:37 and read 10579 times.

Philippine Airlines has submitted the following slot request to AMS for W13:

- PR 720/721 arr. AMS 12.30 - dep. AMS 14.00 a/c 77W Daily Manila - AMS - Manila

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-07-10 13:31:21 and read 10509 times.

LGW or STN I should think. The latter may be more convenient for Filipino populations in the Midlands and North West.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-07-10 13:31:34 and read 10507 times.

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):
3) PAL will likely need to add to its long haul flight. Can we expect an A350, B777X, or B787 order from them in the near future? Which aircraft are they most likely to order?

They have another 20 A330s on order, first delivery is slated for August.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-07-10 13:40:31 and read 10441 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
They have another 20 A330s on order, first delivery is slated for August.

Great if they can use them to free up other frames, but I have a feeling they will need more aircraft for these routes. Shouldn't be too difficult to pick up some additional A343s from Iberia.

They will also be launching five destinations in the Middle East at the end of this year, so perhaps the flights could route via there on the 333.


Dan  

[Edited 2013-07-10 13:44:19]

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-07-10 13:42:15 and read 10438 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
but I have a feeling they will need more aircraft for these routes.

Do you mean in terms of seat capacity? Because those A330s will feature a 9-abreast cabin already.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-07-10 13:45:18 and read 10398 times.

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):
1) When PAL last flew to London, did they fly to Heathrow or Gatwick?

IIRC it was LGW . Would be great to see them back .

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-07-10 13:48:30 and read 10353 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
Do you mean in terms of seat capacity? Because those A330s will feature a 9-abreast cabin already.

I mean in terms of available frames. An A333 will not make it anywhere near Europe non-stop, so my guess would be that they will start services with the A343... my only question is with or without First Class, if they do indeed have to take more aircraft.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-07-10 14:01:47 and read 10268 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
IIRC it was LGW . Would be great to see them back

Transferred to LHR around 1996-1998 before suspension as the Tiger Economic Crash took its toll.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-07-10 14:12:57 and read 10179 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
Transferred to LHR around 1996-1998 before suspension as the Tiger Economic Crash took its toll.

Oh so only a short period then in terms of their history in the UK. I remember them offering cheap flights to OZ Via MNL from LGW. Then the next I heard of them they were only flying minimal routes LAX IIRC.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: MHG
Posted 2013-07-10 14:17:31 and read 10151 times.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 3):
Philippine Airlines has submitted the following slot request to AMS for W13:

- PR 720/721 arr. AMS 12.30 - dep. AMS 14.00 a/c 77W Daily Manila - AMS - Manila

This might be the final nail in the coffin for KL´s Manila flights ...

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):
2) What European destinations are likely to follow after the initial four announced above?

FRA certainly !
ARN possibly ... (but not in short term)

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: KL808
Posted 2013-07-10 14:42:25 and read 9990 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 12):

Cargo is strong for KL into MNL. There has been some issues to the reason they don't fly Non-stop anymore (Not aircraft related). KL has been serving MNL for a long long time.

I feel it is a safe and established route for KL.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-07-10 14:49:20 and read 9955 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9):
An A333 will not make it anywhere near Europe non-stop

I see.

It seems that AMS will get an 77W so you're right, those A330s will free up some other routes.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-07-10 14:59:14 and read 9897 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
It seems that AMS will get an 77W so you're right, those A330s will free up some other routes.

Personally I think even the 77W is a bit big to be throwing straight on the routes. We'll see though I guess, I would love to go back to the Phills so all extra options are good.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-07-10 15:20:40 and read 9798 times.

If PR want to start as early as this Sept or Oct , and use a 77W daily to AMS, they will need extra 343's for sure, or maybe a better bet is to make TG an offer for their 345's. The 77W should come off the NRT & HKG service once the new 333's come in so that will help a bit with long-haul expansion plans.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: QFVHOQA
Posted 2013-07-10 16:29:36 and read 9614 times.

PR also uses 77W's for its SYD & MEL flights. I heard this was because they had nowhere else to send the planes at the time. Now that they are allowed back into Europe I can see these being replaced by either the new A333's or the old A343's.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: DeltaB717
Posted 2013-07-10 16:39:25 and read 9588 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
Great if they can use them to free up other frames,

MEL flight is already announced to go back to A343, so that frees up some 77W capacity. I forget when that happens...

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2013-07-10 16:41:36 and read 9576 times.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 17):
I can see these being replaced by either the new A333's or the old A343's.

HGW 333Es will be the aircraft of choice I am sure.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-07-10 17:11:38 and read 9491 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 12):
This might be the final nail in the coffin for KL´s Manila flights ...

I doubt it. Before the ban, PR cooperated with KL to the extent that KL was selling tag-ons of KL 803/804 to and from cities in the Philippines, taking advantage of PR as their interline partner. Now if PR were to pursue its own flights to AMS, it can take advantage of KL feed, as a lot of Filipinos in Europe transit via AMS to fly back to MNL or further afield.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 13):
There has been some issues to the reason they don't fly Non-stop anymore (Not aircraft related).

Which have been fixed: the taxes have already been abolished and yet KL is still flying via TPE. So much for their promise to restore non-stop flights.  

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-07-10 17:22:01 and read 9460 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
Shouldn't be too difficult to pick up some additional A343s from Iberia.

According CH Aviation and know the author visits here as well following Iberia A343 frames are destined for PAL

EC-KSE (c/n 170), EC-HGX (c/n 332) and EC-LHM (c/n 387)

EC-HGU (c/n 318) has already been received and is now RP -C3436 with PAL.

So that's the four extra frames for expansion and to allow the 77W redeployment.

[Edited 2013-07-10 17:25:04]

[Edited 2013-07-10 17:25:51]

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: hybridace101
Posted 2013-07-10 17:38:17 and read 9395 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 20):
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 20):
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 20):
Quoting KL808 (Reply 13):
There has been some issues to the reason they don't fly Non-stop anymore (Not aircraft related).

Which have been fixed: the taxes have already been abolished and yet KL is still flying via TPE. So much for their promise to restore non-stop flights.  

I think the real reason for why they stopped is intensive competition hurled at them by arab carriers. Let's put things in perspective, PR or MNL are not the only ones suffering from this.

1) AF has scaled back on its flights to BKK. BKK as we know has been a high-yielding holiday destination for EU passengers. SK may follow suit soon. If BKK, which has been a hub for flights to the EU is losing favour with EU carriers, what more with MNL?

2) SQ believes that its bottom line last year was hurt by competition from the big arab carriers. Again, no other carrier in the far east goes as premium as SQ.

3) QF has decided to partner-up with EK, which also means stopping at DXB for flights between the EU and AU. It threw BA under the bus as a consequence and along with it, SIN as its main focus city for "kangaroo flights." Now the future of the "kangaroo route" is in jeopardy.

The bottom line: if premier business-oriented carriers involved in the EU are feeling the pinch, what more with PR? The reality is that if PR wants to be sustainable in the EU or vice versa, they will have no choice but to partner with EK, EY or QR.

[Edited 2013-07-10 17:40:46]

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-07-10 18:16:20 and read 9308 times.

Quoting hybridace101 (Reply 22):
I think the real reason for why they stopped is intensive competition hurled at them by arab carriers.

I mentioned this already both here and on SSC: that the real reason why KL discontinued non-stop AMS-MNL is not because of the tax row (which KL is using as a scapegoat), but because of intense competition from Middle East carriers, in particular EK.

Quoting hybridace101 (Reply 22):
The reality is that if PR wants to be sustainable in the EU or vice versa, they will have no choice but to partner with EK, EY or QR.

What do you think the tie-up with EY is for?   

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-07-10 20:27:48 and read 8645 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 20):
I doubt it. Before the ban, PR cooperated with KL to the extent that KL was selling tag-ons of KL 803/804 to and from cities in the Philippines, taking advantage of PR as their interline partner. Now if PR were to pursue its own flights to AMS, it can take advantage of KL feed, as a lot of Filipinos in Europe transit via AMS to fly back to MNL or further afield.

Any chance KL and PR could codeshare on the AMS-MNL route?

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2013-07-10 20:45:12 and read 8793 times.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 24):
Any chance KL and PR could codeshare on the AMS-MNL route?

If they did it before, I don't see why they can't do it again.  

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: YLWbased
Posted 2013-07-10 22:01:19 and read 8376 times.

1) Aren't PR taking delivery of some ex-IB A340 lately?
2) AFAIK PR have limited 5th freedom out of HKG, am I right?

YLWbased

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-07-10 23:16:03 and read 7948 times.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 24):
Any chance KL and PR could codeshare on the AMS-MNL route?

Back to the good old days:


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Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: babaero
Posted 2013-07-11 02:57:11 and read 6358 times.

When PAL last visited LHR it was around mid 96..service was operated by the A340s leased from Gulf Air

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-07-11 03:03:41 and read 6300 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 12):
ARN possibly ... (but not in short term)

Why ARN? I don't see the source of pax. Unless you are meaning holiday people from the Nordic's. Then HEL would be better  

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-07-11 03:27:59 and read 6161 times.

Market size in 2012 on MNL-Europe were as follows:

LON 220,000
FCO 55,000
CDG 55,000
AMS 50,000
MXP 36,000
FRA 32,000
MAD 26,000
CPH 23,000
MAN 23,000
ZRH 20,000
BRU 17,000
OSL 17,000
BCN 14,000
ARN 14,000

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: AY-MD11
Posted 2013-07-11 03:55:05 and read 5919 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9):
An A333 will not make it anywhere near Europe non-stop

The A330-300 HGW should have the legs to do MNL-Europe non-stop.

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: nclmedic
Posted 2013-07-11 03:57:50 and read 5895 times.

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):
Ramon Ang, President of PAL said that London, Paris, Rome, and Amsterdam will be the first destinations.

I'm surprised that they didn't announce any Spanish speaking destinations, namely MAD. There's a very sizeable Filipino population throughout spain, as well as settled communities in throughout the UK...especially up here in the North East!

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-07-11 04:13:44 and read 5748 times.

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 18):
MEL flight is already announced to go back to A343, so that frees up some 77W capacity. I forget when that happens...

Interesting thanks, I would have put MEL more as an A333 destination.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 21):
According CH Aviation and know the author visits here as well following Iberia A343 frames are destined for PAL

EC-KSE (c/n 170), EC-HGX (c/n 332) and EC-LHM (c/n 387)

EC-HGU (c/n 318) has already been received and is now RP -C3436 with PAL.

So that's the four extra frames for expansion and to allow the 77W redeployment.

That will be a help.

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 31):
The A330-300 HGW should have the legs to do MNL-Europe non-stop.

Not a chance with a remotely viable payload. Especially on the flights to Europe, you have the wind and temperature against you. In the press release, Europe is not mentioned:

"For its latest order the airline has selected the 240 tonne high gross weight version of the A330, offering extra range capability. This will enable the airline to operate the aircraft non-stop from Manila to any destination in the Asia-Pacific region, as well as to the Middle East and as far as Honolulu in the US."


Dan  

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: cityairline
Posted 2013-07-11 04:26:15 and read 5628 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 12):
ARN possibly ... (but not in short term)

As much as I would like to see that one, it's highly unlikely!
I'm half-Filipino and live in the second largest city of Sweden, Gothenburg, and I can tell you that the Filipino population here (and in Stockholm) exists but in a very small scale.
And if you're referring to holidaymakers then sure, the number of Swedes visiting the Philippines has doubled from around 13,000 four years ago to an estimated 25,000 this year, but this number doesn't justify a dedicated service.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 30):
LON 220,000
FCO 55,000
CDG 55,000
AMS 50,000
MXP 36,000
FRA 32,000
MAD 26,000
CPH 23,000
MAN 23,000
ZRH 20,000
BRU 17,000
OSL 17,000
BCN 14,000
ARN 14,000

Appreciate your numbers mate, but in a previous thread you state that the O/D size from MNL in 2012 was LHR (233,000), CDG (67,000), ARN (19,000). So which is it, and where do you get these statistics?

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 32):
I'm surprised that they didn't announce any Spanish speaking destinations, namely MAD.

They have, namely MAD:
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/business/07/10/13/eu-lifts-ban-pal-flights

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: hybridace101
Posted 2013-07-11 04:37:34 and read 5531 times.

Quoting cityairline (Reply 34):
Quoting cityairline (Reply 34):
As much as I would like to see that one, it's highly unlikely!
I'm half-Filipino and live in the second largest city of Sweden, Gothenburg, and I can tell you that the Filipino population here (and in Stockholm) exists but in a very small scale.
And if you're referring to holidaymakers then sure, the number of Swedes visiting the Philippines has doubled from around 13,000 four years ago to an estimated 25,000 this year, but this number doesn't justify a dedicated service.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 30):
LON 220,000
FCO 55,000
CDG 55,000
AMS 50,000
MXP 36,000
FRA 32,000
MAD 26,000
CPH 23,000
MAN 23,000
ZRH 20,000
BRU 17,000
OSL 17,000
BCN 14,000
ARN 14,000

Appreciate your numbers mate, but in a previous thread you state that the O/D size from MNL in 2012 was LHR (233,000), CDG (67,000), ARN (19,000). So which is it, and where do you get these statistics?

I think with figures of even 200K it is still very hard to justify a near-daily service between MNL and LHR.

And ARN!?! Frankly, I don't even know Filipinos go there on holiday; in fact (should my visa be issued), of all my friends from the Philippines I know, I believe I will be the first to go there.

This is why the model EK and QF have reinforced is even existing in the first place. Likewise, With traffic between MNL and DXB much heavier, as well as DXB and LHR also quite heavy (and for the latter the yields to justify such operations), those who want to proceed to MNL from LHR can do so without costing PR empty seats and gas-guzzling operations.

[Edited 2013-07-11 04:40:12]

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: cityairline
Posted 2013-07-11 04:40:40 and read 5508 times.

Quoting babaero (Reply 28):
When PAL last visited LHR it was around mid 96..service was operated by the A340s leased from Gulf Air

That can't be right. I have this old ticket I got from my mother. It was used on a PAL-flight LHR-MNL in 1998...

/Alex

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-07-11 04:56:42 and read 5329 times.

Quoting cityairline (Reply 36):
That can't be right. I have this old ticket I got from my mother. It was used on a PAL-flight LHR-MNL in 1998...

As said back post

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
IIRC it was LGW . Would be great to see them back

Transferred to LHR around 1996-1998 before suspension as the Tiger Economic Crash took its toll

Topic: RE: Philippine Airlines Coming To London, Paris...
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-07-11 06:08:27 and read 4734 times.

Quoting dforce1 (Thread starter):
London, Paris, Rome, and Amsterdam

all were served through Karachi with 747 uptil early 1990s.


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