Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5817855/

Topic: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-07-14 11:34:23 and read 21050 times.

Mom just got back from JFK-CGD-JFK 77W/A380 (so jealous) . She brought me the AF in-flight magazine (which is great) and AF has their fleet in it . Says they have only 7 pax 747's left. No combi's mentioned,either. Just surprised me the number was so low.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: bmibaby737
Posted 2013-07-14 11:36:32 and read 21043 times.

They've been down to 7 for a while now, surely?

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...r=Boeing&subtype=747-400&sort=type

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-07-14 13:56:38 and read 20113 times.

Air France started withdrawal of the 744 more aggressively then Lufthansa and BA perhaps because they have so many 777 and new A380's. AF allways had a smaller 744 fleet then BA & LH and in recent years flew them to cities with leisure demand, they have no First Class and a small J class cabin. Currently Miami to CDG is flown by a 744. These planes are also highly desirable for spares with their GE engines.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2013-07-14 15:25:49 and read 19690 times.

MEX is another station that gets 744s from AF. They don't have premium economy either, do they?

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: s4popo
Posted 2013-07-14 15:31:03 and read 19644 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

about to change...

http://airlineroute.net/2013/07/12/af-w13update2/

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: American 767
Posted 2013-07-14 15:51:32 and read 19486 times.

Air France no longer flies the 744 to JFK (KLM still does), mostly 77W and A380 equipment with maybe one 772. KLM still has some pax 744s left. I was surprised to see Lufthansa and BA mentioned but not KLM. KLM was one of the earliest 744 operators with British Airways.

By the end of this decade, not many passenger 744s will be left around the world. It's normal. The 77W and the A380, both being much more successful than the 748i, are taking over most 744 routes. Air France anticipates to retire its last passenger 744 in 2016.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2013-07-14 16:11:09 and read 19358 times.

Quoting s4popo (Reply 4):
about to change...

Well, wasn't the 777-300ER @ MIA before?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ozell Stephens Jr

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: hinckley
Posted 2013-07-14 16:20:18 and read 19266 times.

Well one of those seven overflew my car about an hour ago outbound from BOS to CDG!

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Alnicocunife
Posted 2013-07-14 17:17:43 and read 18590 times.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 5):
By the end of this decade, not many passenger 744s will be left around the world.

Delta will be one of the last with the oldest -400.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-07-14 17:51:29 and read 18130 times.

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 8):

Quoting American 767 (Reply 5):
By the end of this decade, not many passenger 744s will be left around the world.

Delta will be one of the last with the oldest -400.

And hanging around for a while considering they've under gone refurbishment.

EK8413

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: s4popo
Posted 2013-07-14 19:47:28 and read 16542 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 6):

Well, wasn't the 777-300ER @ MIA before?

Yes, it's been here before. I may have misunderstood it, but I thought this was a permanent change and not a seasonal adjustment.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-07-14 20:08:25 and read 16246 times.

I think most airlines will be phasing out their 747-400 fleet over the next 4-5 years--if only by then many of them have started to run up a lot of flight hours! Small wonder why the 777-300ER--which probably wouldn't have sold as well if the oriignal planned range of 7,100 nm (still air) had stayed that way--will soon be the most common model of the 777.

Indeed, don't be surprised AF buy some more 773ER's to finally allow the airline to phase out the 744 fleet, since most airlines are buying 773ER's are 747 replacements.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-07-15 02:07:17 and read 11641 times.

Quoting s4popo (Reply 10):

AF sends their 77Ws to MIA in winter, and their 744s in summer

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-07-15 05:59:24 and read 8605 times.

Currently, AF send their B744 to YUL, BOS, MIA and MEX.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-07-15 06:31:36 and read 8055 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 13):

Don't forget GIG

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-07-15 08:01:21 and read 6732 times.

Quoting United_fan (Thread starter):
Mom just got back from JFK-CGD-JFK 77W/A380 (so jealous) . She brought me the AF in-flight magazine (which is great) and AF has their fleet in it . Says they have only 7 pax 747's left. No combi's mentioned,either. Just surprised me the number was so low.

How many -400s (in passenger/combi configurations) did AF have at their peak?

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-07-15 08:28:02 and read 6330 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 15):
How many -400s (in passenger/combi configurations) did AF have

If I am not mistaken, since the launching of this aircraft, AF has ordered 73 747s (all series), including 24 747-400s (including 11 -400F, no combi).

Source : http://www.planespotters.net/Product...amp;fleet=1306&fleetStatus=all

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-07-15 08:40:00 and read 6158 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 16):
If I am not mistaken, since the launching of this aircraft, AF has ordered 73 747s (all series), including 24 747-400s (including 11 -400F, no combi).

So they are down to about 1/3 of their peak for the -400 fleet... perhaps not shocking considering we are talking about 20-25 year old aircraft. I will say, however, that I have always enjoyed flying the B744 and have done so on several airlines. I will miss them when they are gone...

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2013-07-15 08:48:28 and read 6000 times.

I wonder which aircraft will replace the 744 on the MEX route. MEX might not be A388-ready, and I hope AF does not start sending 77Ws.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: fxramper
Posted 2013-07-15 09:00:19 and read 5842 times.

Is AF dumping their 744 to other carriers or just parking them? The other day I was at Sheraton CDG and had a nice hotel room view of one set of the runways. Saw a few AF 747 cargos take off. Saw 1 744 pax land. Also saw 2 AF 773 land and a DL 767 land. Only stood by the window a handful of minutes after my shower. Was a busy morning.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-07-15 09:20:49 and read 5515 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 17):
So they are down to about 1/3 of their peak for the -400 fleet... perhaps not shocking considering we are talking about 20-25 year old aircraft.

Not shocking also considering their fleet of 37 77W of which AF was the launching airline (+25 777-200ER).


Quoting richierich (Reply 17):
I have always enjoyed flying the B744 and have done so on several airlines. I will miss them when they are gone...

So will I ! The upper deck has always been a fantastic experience, whichever class / airline !


Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
I wonder which aircraft will replace the 744 on the MEX route. MEX might not be A388-ready, and I hope AF does not start sending 77Ws.

Back in nov 2009, I flew CDG-MEX RT already in an AF 77W !
Agreed, the 10 abreast seating configuration in Y does not make it the most memorable experience, but at least the decent IFE and the free champagne help !  
As for the A380, MEX is not a premium destination for AF (no F).Therefore I doubt they will operate the aircraft in the very near future as it would result in a massive increase of premium seats. The 744s will remain in their fleet until 2017/2018 IIRC. By then everything can happen. One thing is sure though : the traffic is there.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: n729pa
Posted 2013-07-15 10:08:18 and read 4852 times.

With the general lack of enthusiam for the 747-800, most of the 747 legacy carriers have passed it by, so sadly the writing in on the wall for the 747 unfortunately. Won't be too long before the 744 will be a rare plane to get on, so make the most of it I say while we still can.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2013-07-15 10:18:24 and read 4706 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 3):
MEX is another station that gets 744s from AF. They don't have premium economy either, do they?

Technically not, however, the upper deck has Y seats with more legroom and PTV guaranteed on all planes (main deck Y seating on AF 744 are sans-PTV except for the newest 3 a/c). AF sure either sells these seats for a fee, or reserves them for the most loyal customers or those paying full Y fare.

Quoting Azure (Reply 20):
Back in nov 2009, I flew CDG-MEX RT already in an AF 77W !
Agreed, the 10 abreast seating configuration in Y does not make it the most memorable experience, but at least the decent IFE and the free champagne help !

These might been seasonal adjustments, or was tried temporarily.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2013-07-15 11:33:56 and read 3827 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 20):
Back in nov 2009, I flew CDG-MEX RT already in an AF 77W !
Agreed, the 10 abreast seating configuration in Y does not make it the most memorable experience, but at least the decent IFE and the free champagne help !  
As for the A380, MEX is not a premium destination for AF (no F).Therefore I doubt they will operate the aircraft in the very near future as it would result in a massive increase of premium seats. The 744s will remain in their fleet until 2017/2018 IIRC. By then everything can happen. One thing is sure though : the traffic is there.

Thanks a lot for the info Azure; I appreciate it. Yes, I agree MEX is not a premium destination for AF. I wonder if AF will eventually have differently configured A388s with less premium seats. Anyway, if these seven 744s will stay till 2017-2018, perhaps it is safe to assume the MEX route will continue to be a 744 route until then. AM will soon be sending 788s to CDG, first a few days per week and eventually daily. That will be fun. Let's see what AF does after 2017.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 22):
AF sure either sells these seats for a fee, or reserves them for the most loyal customers or those paying full Y fare.

Yes, makes sense to be required to pay a bit more to fly in the upper deck with better legroom and a guaranteed PTV. As a SkyTeam frequent flyer, I will take that into consideration if I need to go to Europe soon!

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 22):
These might been seasonal adjustments, or was tried temporarily.

The A343 was sent to MEX seasonally. What is the timeframe for retirement of the A343s?

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2013-07-15 23:10:05 and read 3183 times.

Why doesn't AF just transfer all the remaining 744s to KLM. No doubt the configuration used is perfect for KLM, and they seem to be able to employ there 744s profitably. With such a small subfleet it would surely be more efficient for them all to be with one arm of the group?

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-07-16 00:45:30 and read 3130 times.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 22):
Technically not, however, the upper deck has Y seats with more legroom and PTV guaranteed on all planes (main deck Y seating on AF 744 are sans-PTV except for the newest 3 a/c).
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 23):
and a guaranteed PTV

ALL 7 744s have PTVs from nose to tail, now.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-07-16 01:34:25 and read 3073 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 24):
Why doesn't AF just transfer all the remaining 744s to KLM. No doubt the configuration used is perfect for KLM, and they seem to be able to employ there 744s profitably. With such a small subfleet it would surely be more efficient for them all to be with one arm of the group?

Don't forget that out of 22 B744 KLM is operating, 15 are combi with a total of only 275 seats as opposed to 415 for their regular version.
It is doubtful KL is in need of additional B744, especially with their 8 (relatively) new B77W frames.

In the end, AF is still satisfied with their B744 which seem to be working well on lower yields destinations. AF needs to hold some cash, and postpone delivery of new aircraft on order till their financial status improves (they have recently postponed the delivery of their last A380's). Which explains why they have refurbished all of their B744 in the view of keeping them a bit longer than expected.

[Edited 2013-07-16 01:36:05]

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2013-07-16 02:10:30 and read 3052 times.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 26):
AF needs to hold some cash, and postpone delivery of new aircraft on order till their financial status improves (they have recently postponed the delivery of their last A380's). Which explains why they have refurbished all of their B744 in the view of keeping them a bit longer than expected.

All the more reason to give them to KLM, so they can earn some cash.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-07-16 02:23:37 and read 3004 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 27):
All the more reason to give them to KLM, so they can earn some cash.

Are you suggesting AF does not make any cash on long-haul ?!

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-07-16 02:25:14 and read 3011 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
Are you suggesting AF does not make any cash on long-haul ?!

I highly doubt it given their fares...
Look at the fares on MIA flights for example, for August...

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2013-07-16 02:49:10 and read 2953 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 28):
re you suggesting AF does not make any cash on long-haul ?!

I am suggesting these aircraft, in their current configuration, would suite KLM's business model better, given its
focus on economy pax connecting from northern europe to the rest of the world, with a small focus on Premium, that they already operate 22 of the type with the exact same engine, and in the present world economy, perhaps, given the better economic circumstances of northern europe this represents a better opportunity to make cash from this small sub fleet. You may even want to send some 772s back from KL to AF in exchange possibly given them reducing frequencies to places like BKK. How is that for a diplomatic answer? lol

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-07-16 02:53:36 and read 2935 times.

10 a/c is not really a subfleet (7 744PAX plus 3 744F).

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2013-07-16 02:55:58 and read 2936 times.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 31):

10 a/c is not really a subfleet (7 744PAX plus 3 744F).

true. Still I think they could be better suited to KLM atm. The 744 should still have a lower CASM than the
772 and KLM's business model is about moving lots of Y passengers efficiently. Air France chases more premium pax in general.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: SCL767
Posted 2013-07-16 03:06:43 and read 2893 times.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 14):
Don't forget GIG

Also during the NW13 season, the 744s will be deployed on the CDG-HAV, CDG-PUJ and the CDG-SDQ routes.

[Edited 2013-07-16 03:08:41]

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-07-16 03:25:56 and read 2808 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 30):

Your answer is rather diplomatic but this does not make it a valid one : the 22 KLM 744s and the 7 AF 744s are certainly maintained by the same division / company as the purpose of the "merger" was to realize economies of scale. I am not opposed to transfer the 7 AF 744s to KL if KL in return, and following your logic, sends 7 77Ws to AF which already operates 35 of them ! But I am not sure that 1/ it makes any sense at all and 2/ KL staff appreciate the move !
FYI, most of these 7 AF 744s are owned in full property by the group (without any lease agreement on them) and are able to generate cash (note they are sent to low-yielding destinations).
As for the economic circumstances, I have not seen KL load factor on long-haul being significantly over AF's, have you ?
Furthermore I am a bit confused by your "northern european" theory in a thread involving AF and France : just to mention my personal case, being born in Paris, I am definitely more "northern" than a german born in Munich or than a swiss born in Zürich !

Quoting LY777 (Reply 29):
I highly doubt it given their fares...
Look at the fares on MIA flights for example, for August...

The ticket fares are rarely a good indicator of the ability of an airline to generate profit. What matters is their cost base, and in this respect, AF/KL have one of the highest cost base among all European legacies (mainly due to the high wages and their number of employees). However if you read their financial reports, it is clear their long-haul ops are profitable.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-07-16 04:54:56 and read 2625 times.

I still think both AF and KL will look at replacing their 747-400's by 2020. For one reason: airframe life. These airframes by 2020 would have run up a lot of hours, and it may be no long economical to do C and D check overhauls. As such, the 744's will likely be replaced by a combination of A380's and 777-300ER's.

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: LY777
Posted 2013-07-16 08:27:05 and read 2355 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 35):

I agree. The 748I could fill nicely the gap between the 77W and the A380 though

Topic: RE: AF Down To 7 Pax 747's
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-07-16 09:01:08 and read 2288 times.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 36):
The 748I could fill nicely the gap between the 77W and the A380 though

What gap ? AF 77Ws (COI version) have 468 seats, the 744s have 432. Economically, It would not make sense for AF to replace their 7 744s with a small subfleet of 748i, they'd be better off with more 77Ws COI.
AF A380s have 516 seats, but with a lot of F and C. They are not intended to replace the 744s (sent to low-yielding destinations) but to serve premium destinations where their F equipped 772ER (247 seats) and 77Ws (303 seats) are not sufficient.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/