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Topic: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: g500
Posted 2013-07-18 18:12:12 and read 15809 times.

U.S Pilot Union (ALPA) went to bat for the Asiana pilots involved in the SFO crash.

The Union strongly criticized the NTSB for seeking the "media spot-light" and allowing the investigation to turn into a media circus ..

"ALPA has already issued statements critical of the NTSB’s public release of crash information. “That fueled rampant speculation about the cause of the accident, and without all the facts surrounding a catastrophic event like this, partial or incomplete information, out of context, can lead to erroneous conclusions and misguided assessments of the crew’s intentions and actions,” Moak told the safety forum.

“We understand that an organization’s leader is ultimately responsible for, and accountable for, the actions of that organization’s members,” he added. “What we have seen in this instance is an organization that has chosen to deviate from internationally accepted and time-proven investigative processes and procedures in favor of increased media exposure and sensationalism.”

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...ident-slams-ntsb-over-asiana-probe

The Pilot Union also fears the pilots will be criminally prosecuted back in South Korea, and that'd hurt the investigation even farther

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: okie
Posted 2013-07-18 18:43:38 and read 15629 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
The Pilot Union also fears the pilots will be criminally prosecuted back in South Korea, and that'd hurt the investigation even farther

Obviously the union has not read the South Korean headlines.
The pilots successfully wrestled a Boeing 777 that had gone berserk and lost control onto a substandard runway with no ATC control and saved the lives of over 200 passengers.

ALPA shot themselves in the foot on that statement in relation to the pilots. About the only thing missing in those headlines is how they missed the school full of children.

Okie

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-07-18 18:59:02 and read 15548 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"ALPA has already issued statements critical of the NTSB’s public release of crash information. “That fueled rampant speculation about the cause of the accident, and without all the facts surrounding a catastrophic event like this, partial or incomplete information, out of context, can lead to erroneous conclusions and misguided assessments of the crew’s intentions and actions,” Moak told the safety forum.

While I agree in principal, how could it be avoided in such a public crash?

The reality was there was extreme interest in finding out quickly a root cause for this accident. It was an unusually public crash at an airport of high visibility. If the facts weren't released quickly, the news would have spun out of control.

This isn't the old days where news could be held tight to the chest. Either the public is allowed to be part of the investigation or they will turn.


The increased media exposure and sensationalism was already in progress before the NTSB had their first brief. The fact ALPA doesn't realize that the NTSB brought it back from hysteria to under control means they don't realize how information transfer has changed.

IMHO, the pilots should not be held for criminal charges nor ever prosecuted. That delays or prevents information discovery that will save future lives.

But either organizations are more transparent or they will not be trusted as the source of information. Its an artifact of the times.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: moo
Posted 2013-07-19 00:02:25 and read 14988 times.

This is getting all too normal, pilots unions decrying the investigatory bodies because they haven't said something, and thus the speculation falls on the pilots involved.

Look at the way the french pilots union reacted after the black boxes were recovered in the AF447 accident when Airbus simply said "we have no further recommendations" - I distinctly remember the pilots union going crazy over that simple statement.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-07-19 00:25:49 and read 14859 times.

Agreed with ALPA. This constant insatiable appetite for information these days is getting out of control...

Sme of the things they've revealed have led the media to jump to idiotic conclusions that we could do without

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: g500
Posted 2013-07-19 02:11:15 and read 14594 times.

I think it's pretty cool that a U.S pilot union is defending a pair of pilots from a different country

Finally some solidarity in the profesion

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-07-19 02:44:50 and read 14459 times.

As much as I hate unions, i do agree the NTSB has been releasing too much too early, and often not accurate. And the media eats it up like it's curry rice   

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-19 02:54:30 and read 14433 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
As much as I hate unions, i do agree the NTSB has been releasing too much too early, and often not accurate. And the media eats it up like it's curry rice   

Mind sharing with us one piece of information the NTSB has released that hasn't been accurate as you claim? The 'confirmation' of the bogus pilot names doesn't count because they didn't release the names.

ALPA needs to eff off, they'd be crying if the NTSB hadn't released anything. They never seem to be happy with anything really.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: David L
Posted 2013-07-19 04:06:38 and read 14269 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 4):
Sme of the things they've revealed have led the media to jump to idiotic conclusions that we could do without

The media jumps to idiotic conclusions all the time. The small amount of information released so far by the NTSB has simply steered them (and some of us) away from some of those idiotic conclusions. The "media circus" and "rampant speculation" would have happened with or without any input from the NTSB.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 7):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):As much as I hate unions, i do agree the NTSB has been releasing too much too early, and often not accurate. And the media eats it up like it's curry rice   

Mind sharing with us one piece of information the NTSB has released that hasn't been accurate as you claim?

I'd also be interested to see that. I think they've been very careful to report a few facts while including the caveat that investigation and analysis of the full facts has only just begun.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 7):
The 'confirmation' of the bogus pilot names doesn't count because they didn't release the names.

   A mistake was made within the organisation in confirming the bogus names but they acknowledged that and apologised.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: AusA380
Posted 2013-07-19 05:54:05 and read 14003 times.

From my observations in Australia, compared to our aviation accident investigation unit which has been highly criticised by a Parliamentary Enquiry, I have appreciated the very high professionalism of the NTSB and their release of facts in the early days after the accident.

They were very clear not to go into the area of speculation or outside of their responsibility. They recognised and stated that there is considerable analysis to be done, but facts such as air speed, height, communications etc are not matters of dispute.

I just wish more government agencies were as transparent with the facts.

In this case, I think the pilot unions have got it wrong.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-07-19 06:06:20 and read 13912 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
The Union strongly criticized the NTSB for seeking the "media spot-light" and allowing the investigation to turn into a media circus ..
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
As much as I hate unions, i do agree the NTSB has been releasing too much too early, and often not accurate.

What information exactly has been released by the NTSB that was not already public information? Serious question.

Added: Or at least information that was known by sources other than the NTSB and likely to come out anyway?

[Edited 2013-07-19 06:08:15]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-19 06:10:16 and read 13882 times.

The NTSB tempered the speculation by a release of facts.

The fact is that these pilots most likely messed up.

The union's statements look absolutely bizarre and, frankly, idiotic.

Classic example of a union leader being so partisan because he believes that his only audience is his members, not realizing that shaming his members to the public at large by appearing to want to hide the truth isn't good.

Stick up for the boss...great. Embarrass the boss while sticking up for him...you're fired.

The union now has no credibility in the media -- even though it's a union and gets a free ride from its media lapdogs -- with regard to this accident.

Would have been so much better to have said how ALPA pilots in the US get better training and practice and procedures than their peers in other countries, including Korea, usually implemented and assisted by our union-breathren trainers and dispatchers. Or something like that. Make his membership the heroes, and blame the evil foreign airline for not giving its pilots the tools that the brave union has insisted be available at American carriers.

I'm guessing that ALPA is looking to organize foreign carriers. That can be the only explanation for the pure fiction coming from the union. (Or, they are afraid that their guys will be made to look bad on the next investigation. He should presume that his guys won't screw up this bad.)

And he can run off at the mouth like this because they won't be a party to this investigation; normally, he would be gagged or dismissed as a party for being this much of a dork. Proves the benefit of the rules.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: NYC777
Posted 2013-07-19 06:34:02 and read 13790 times.

NTSB didn't do anything different then they do when they're investigating any other transport accident in terms of communicating with the media. That includes air accidents where it wasn't the fault of the air crew. Typical union BS again.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-07-19 06:38:56 and read 13689 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 11):
The NTSB tempered the speculation by a release of facts.

Worth re-emphasizing. Look at the AF447 crash and the speculation off that. The lack of a known cause to correct was hurting AF and Airbus. Hence why the French government loaned a patrol sub to help find the black boxes.

I think we would rather not go through that again...

Quoting airbazar (Reply 10):
What information exactly has been released by the NTSB that was not already public information? Serious question.

I think it was the timing not so much the information.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-07-19 07:05:15 and read 13255 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 4):
Agreed with ALPA. This constant insatiable appetite for information these days is getting out of control...

Some of the things they've revealed have led the media to jump to idiotic conclusions that we could do without

Right, because obviously if the NTSB released absolutely no information at all the media would have been silent on the whole thing ...

Also, don't you think that the need to assure the international flying public that this was likely a fluke event caused by pilot error (and not some systemic issue or problem with the 777) trumps the need to find out 100 percent of all the data regarding the flight? In this case, with eyewitness accounts, video and immediate access to the CVR and what not, it was pretty easy to find a definitive cause of the crash pretty.

 
Quoting David L (Reply 8):
I'd also be interested to see that. I think they've been very careful to report a few facts while including the caveat that investigation and analysis of the full facts has only just begun.
Quoting AusA380 (Reply 9):
I have appreciated the very high professionalism of the NTSB and their release of facts in the early days after the accident.

  

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-19 08:24:11 and read 12051 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 7):
Mind sharing with us one piece of information the NTSB has released that hasn't been accurate as you claim?

I believe it was in the first briefing that Hersman mentioned the 137 knot Vref speed and said that the speed was significantly below that, and in the next briefing she said what their actual speed was (or at least what the instruments recorded it as). Why draw that out over two days? Why not just wait until you've validated the speed, then say that the Vref was calculated to 137 knots and the lowest speed was 106?

The NTSB hasn't released anything inaccurate, but I do believe they've released information without providing the necessary factual context.

-Mir

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: vio
Posted 2013-07-19 11:51:36 and read 9566 times.

I love how some of our a.net members start criticizing others for this "appetite for information", when on our own website (a.net) we had over 9 threads on the 214 crash and another 7 or so on the Ethiopian fire in LHR. Us, of all people are responsible for this media frenzy. How many of you here stayed glued to CNN for 5 hours of idiotic reporting, playing that guy's video 678 times, etc? I know I did...

The NTSB only released factual information, even though it was preliminary. They made it very clear that a final report is based on many other factors, some of which have not come to light yet. ALPA is also partially right, but in the world of YouTube, Facebook and other "iReport" sites, one can easily get the VERY wrong information. At least the NTSB is trying to bring things into perspective. CNN, Fox News and the such will dissect everything into 1000 pcs; they'll have "experts" and "experts" comment and analyze things until one forgets what the main story is about. How else will the fill 24/7 coverage of "Timmy stuck in the well"?

If you want to reduce this media frenzy, stop watching... and I should be first to follow my own advice.

Edit for spelling

[Edited 2013-07-19 11:55:57]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-07-19 11:55:29 and read 9503 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 4):

Sme of the things they've revealed have led the media to jump to idiotic conclusions that we could do without

Yes, because the media wouldn't be doing that anyways.

 

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-19 12:24:47 and read 9133 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I believe it was in the first briefing that Hersman mentioned the 137 knot Vref speed and said that the speed was significantly below that, and in the next briefing she said what their actual speed was (or at least what the instruments recorded it as). Why draw that out over two days? Why not just wait until you've validated the speed, then say that the Vref was calculated to 137 knots and the lowest speed was 106?

The NTSB hasn't released anything inaccurate, but I do believe they've released information without providing the necessary factual context.

Wait, you cannot blame that on the NTSB. You took it the way you took it but they did what they've always done, provide facts that they have verified. My guess on the speed issue is they wanted to verify 100% that the aircraft was traveling at a much slower speed than the 137 Knots target the crew wanted it at. You cannot blame the NTSB if you made your own conclusions based on the delay of information.

Quoting vio (Reply 16):
If you want to reduce this media frenzy, stop watching... and I should be first to follow my own advice.

I actually did stop watching after some moronic, sensationalism reporting by CNN on the OZ crash. I find that one can find better facts on A.net- Of course you have to filter through the threads to find them but better than watching CNN re-enact a 28L landing with a Cessna 172- That did it for me.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2013-07-19 12:25:21 and read 9135 times.

Quoting vio (Reply 16):
I love how some of our a.net members start criticizing others for this "appetite for information", when on our own website (a.net) we had over 9 threads on the 214 crash and another 7 or so on the Ethiopian fire in LHR. Us, of all people are responsible for this media frenzy. How many of you here stayed glued to CNN for 5 hours of idiotic reporting, playing that guy's video 678 times, etc? I know I did...

The NTSB only released factual information, even though it was preliminary. They made it very clear that a final report is based on many other factors, some of which have not come to light yet. ALPA is also partially right, but in the world of YouTube, Facebook and other "iReport" sites, one can easily get the VERY wrong information. At least the NTSB is trying to bring things into perspective. CNN, Fox News and the such will dissect everything into 1000 pcs; they'll have "experts" and "experts" comment and analyze things until one forgets what the main story is about. How else will the fill 24/7 coverage of "Timmy stuck in the well"?

If you want to reduce this media frenzy, stop watching... and I should be first to follow my own advice.

Neatly packaged response...I like it...bravo!

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: NBGSkyGod
Posted 2013-07-19 12:31:37 and read 9060 times.

Quoting vio (Reply 16):

  

You sir have summed up the whole thing nicely. There was even an article in Yahoo about our little site and its "expertise" in all things flying. CNN was openly following everyone's speculation and information as it came forth. So yes, this crash more than any other to date was as responsible for much of the media's frenzy as anything else.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-07-19 12:45:41 and read 8882 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
NTSB didn't do anything different then they do when they're investigating any other transport accident in terms of communicating with the media. That includes air accidents where it wasn't the fault of the air crew. Typical union BS again.

The difference is that it's obvious pilot error and according to pilots on this forum, ALPA, Asiana, and many others, pilots can do no wrong. Doesn't matter that the majority of air transport accidents are a result of straight pilot error, or pilots poorly managing non-fatal errors.

But pilots on this forum and elsewhere always want to point to malfunction first. As I've pointed out, they may be trying to deflect to a non-human cause to spare "blame" on anyone, but aircraft are designed, built and maintained by humans, so speculation of malfunction is simply a way to deflect blame from the human pilots and place it onto the human engineers and mechanics, and as an engineer by training, I find that just as offensive as some pilots find speculation that one of their own might have made a fatal error.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: frmrcapcadet
Posted 2013-07-19 13:02:45 and read 8673 times.

I have always been uncomfortable with extended union protection for those with high salaries. Such people need union protection for legal costs and obviously arbitrary firing. Unions should be for retail clerks, fast food workers, and etc. The ALPA complaints about public getting information that is, well, public is inane.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2013-07-19 13:17:36 and read 8504 times.

In today's world, We are "The Media."

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-19 13:27:57 and read 8380 times.

Quoting vio (Reply 16):
The NTSB only released factual information, even though it was preliminary.

If it's preliminary, then it shouldn't be released. Verify it, corroborate it and then (and only then) release it. I'm not saying we need to wait for the final report, but how exactly does talking about a portion of the CVR whose timeline is subject to change help?

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 18):
Wait, you cannot blame that on the NTSB.

I can't blame them for putting out information in a haphazard manner?

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 18):
My guess on the speed issue is they wanted to verify 100% that the aircraft was traveling at a much slower speed than the 137 Knots target the crew wanted it at.

Fine. Verify it, and then say that what the target speed was and that the aircraft was slower. Don't say it was slower and then make the media go chasing their tail trying to figure out what that means. Waiting an extra day isn't going to kill anyone.

Overall I think the NTSB has done a good job, but I also think that some of the information they put out shouldn't have been put out if they didn't have the ability to provide proper context for it at the time. I don't think that really helps anybody, and it certainly doesn't help dampen media speculation.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 21):
The difference is that it's obvious pilot error

"It's pilot error" is about the most useless phrase in aviation safety. Remember that we're not trying to assign blame, we're trying to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 21):
But pilots on this forum and elsewhere always want to point to malfunction first.

Please quote for me pilots on this forum who have suggested that the crash was due to a mechanical problem. I know I never did.

-Mir

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-07-19 13:29:37 and read 8583 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 14):
Also, don't you think that the need to assure the international flying public that this was likely a fluke event caused by pilot error

Is this the first plane crash in the history of aviation? People continued to fly after TWA800 and AF447 (two that come to mind) even though no one knew what caused it, did they not?

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
The NTSB hasn't released anything inaccurate, but I do believe they've released information without providing the necessary factual context.

   I think this is probably what I wanted to say instead.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
Yes, because the media wouldn't be doing that anyways.

Don't roll your eyes too far back...you might hurt yourself.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2013-07-19 13:31:22 and read 8555 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):
IMHO, the pilots should not be held for criminal charges nor ever prosecuted.

Why not? Should pilots in general not be prosecuted even if evidenciary facts establish negligence in performing duties resulting in deaths or serious injury? In this (Asiana Crash) case no alcohol or drug tests were done on the pilots (looks like the NTSB & SFO authorities botched up on this one) so we will never know; but does your statement still hold true if any of the pilots were found to be on a banned susbtance OR over the legal alcohol limit? Why should pilots be treated differently from operators of other forms of transport? Not to be off topic, but recently there was a train crash in the Los Angeles area that was caused by a train operator who was busy texting (as established by the investigation), he died, but if he were alive i think he should at the least face trial in court for being negligent in discharging his duties (i am not saying he should be jailed since we are not the judge & jury).

Quote:
That delays or prevents information discovery that will save future lives.

I think the tools are in place for information discovery and saving future lives - FDRs, CVRs, operating procedures/processes, proper training etc. and most importantly (and hopefully) a transparent and fair investigation without cover ups by a body like NTSB in the US. And, i would say, if possible add video surveillance. I agree that pilots should not be victimized and made a scape goat; but saying that they should not be held for criminal charges without conclusion of the investigation and without all the facts established is a bit premature IMO.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-19 16:44:52 and read 6851 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 21):
But pilots on this forum and elsewhere always want to point to malfunction first.
Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
Please quote for me pilots on this forum who have suggested that the crash was due to a mechanical problem. I know I never did.

All you have to do is read the SFO crash threads, even the very last post on thread 10 right now by Zeke suggests an auto-throttle malfunction or lack of low speed warnings on the 777 so there it is, I pointed it out.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-19 17:10:04 and read 6644 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 27):
All you have to do is read the SFO crash threads, even the very last post on thread 10 right now by Zeke suggests an auto-throttle malfunction or lack of low speed warnings on the 777 so there it is, I pointed it out.

I haven't read that post, but my guess is that is Zeke being anti-Boeing, not necessarily pro-pilot. He spent a lot of time and energy touting the A340-600 as superior to the 777-300ER despite the 773 destroying the A346 in the marketplace. He is very much an Airbus cheerleader.


From everything published about this accident it appears to be pilot error. That actually isn't what's important though, what is important is why he made the error and why there appears to be such poor CRM in that cockpit.

I'd personally be interested in knowing how many hours the Captain was hired with. I really don't care that he had 10,000 hours at the time of the accident because you don't learn basic airmanship flying a commercial airliner. You are supposed to learn how to do things like shoot a visual approach before you get hired. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn this Asiana pilot was a low time hire and was passed through the program to fill a seat.

It could also be a case of over reliance on automation, some pilots are bad with this. Like any skill, hand flying has to be practiced and often times automation is more of hindrance then a help. If it's clear and a million and you see the runway there is no reason why a professional pilot shouldn't be able to land the aircraft with out any form of vertical guidance. You must be well versed in how to do this because you never know when stuff will break.

Then again it is totally possible that this is simply a complete and total screw up by this pilot. I hope this isn't the case because this leaves no room for possible safety improvements. I hope it turns out to be a systematic problem with Asiana's training or hiring practices because that can be easily fixed. Stupidity can't unfortunately.

[Edited 2013-07-19 17:11:48]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-07-19 17:47:45 and read 6261 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
As much as I hate unions, i do agree the NTSB has been releasing too much too early, and often not accurate. And the media eats it up like it's curry rice

IIRC, you tend to skip half of each thread and ask around for summaries. I hope you haven't concluded the above based on those unread or half-read threads. Since you like to get the summaries, let me do it for you so you don't miss the questions again. Here you go:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 7):
Mind sharing with us one piece of information the NTSB has released that hasn't been accurate as you claim? The 'confirmation' of the bogus pilot names doesn't count because they didn't release the names.
Quoting David L (Reply 8):
I'd also be interested to see that. I think they've been very careful to report a few facts while including the caveat that investigation and analysis of the full facts has only just begun.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 10):
What information exactly has been released by the NTSB that was not already public information? Serious question.

And let me ask you: what was not accurate? There are press briefings on the NTSB's YouTube channel, so please point at the actual inaccuracies for our benefit.

Thank you.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-07-19 17:50:21 and read 6250 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
The Union strongly criticized the NTSB for seeking the "media spot-light" and allowing the investigation to turn into a media circus ..

This is what ALPA actually have been saying, hardly "slamming"

http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/Pre...ressReleases/2013/7-8-13_13.34.htm
http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/Pre...ressReleases/2013/7-9-13_13.35.htm
http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/Pre...essReleases/2013/7-11-13_13.39.htm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
The Pilot Union also fears the pilots will be criminally prosecuted back in South Korea, and that'd hurt the investigation even farther

All of the crew that were well enough, have already been sent to Korea. This accident has been a great national shame for all Koreans. They take a lot of pride in whenever any of their large brands, or people who have been born in Korea (may have lived their entire life overseas, and not speak Korean) bring the country into the spotlight in a negative way. There was a shooting in the US university a while back that involved a person that was born in Korea , and lived in the US all their life from memory. That brought a lot of national shame as well.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 27):
All you have to do is read the SFO crash threads, even the very last post on thread 10 right now by Zeke suggests an auto-throttle malfunction or lack of low speed warnings on the 777 so there it is, I pointed it out.

Let me stop that in the bud.

What I said is this board is full of armchair air safety investigators, the same armchair air safety investigators that said pilot error was the cause of the Turkish 737 crash in AMS where a 3 crew 737 got slow an stalled while on an ILS to land. The accident report what I linked to the post goes to great length to explain all of the causal factors, what the report concluded, and what the armchair investigators had already concluded were far apart.

The dutch report was critical of a number of things, they also found the autothrottle system installed on lots of 737s did not perform as designed. There were two manufacturers of the autothrottle (GE and Rockwell from memory), one did work as designed, one did not. Faults were known in the autothrottle systems, these faults were not relayed to pilots as it was thought by Boeing that the probability of the failure occurring at low altitude were low. And then an accident occurs, where this low probability events does occur.

I am on record stating that it of my view that their a numerous causal factors that were no on that flight deck, anyone with an ounce of industry knowledge knows that.

I draw your attention to this article http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...warning-asiana-flight-214/2508863/

"Federal safety investigators have urged for nearly a decade — after at least three fatal crashes — that planes should have a noise warning telling pilots when they are flying too slow, as was the case in the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214."

"NTSB noted in 2003 that low speed was a factor in at least 18 accidents during the previous two decades."

"Boeing also has a "caution tone" for low airspeed on the 777, along with versions of the 747, according to an FAA panel studying the issue. But other planes have a verbal warning such as "airspeed low." Clifford said the 777 tone "has proven to not capture the pilot's attention in these low airspeed circumstances.""

We also know that unspecific tones in a cockpit during critical phases of flight can result in confusion from the crew, this was one of the factors in the Helios Airways Flight 522 accident, the cabin altitude warning tone was too unspecific, it confused the crew.

""It is outrageous and unacceptable that the FAA and the airline industry were sitting on two NTSB recommendations that, if acted on, would likely have prevented this crash," Clifford wrote to FAA acting Administrator Lynne Osmus on May 7, 2009.

Plane manufacturers have begun installing noise warnings on their own.

Airbus has a warning that says "speed speed speed" every five seconds between 2,000 and 100 feet when an aircraft goes too slow. The equipment is on the A320 family since 1995 and on all A330, 340, 350 and 380 aircraft.

Boeing puts a warning that says "airspeed low, airspeed low" on 737-600, -700, -800 and -900 planes, according to an FAA panel studying the issue. Boeing began putting the warning on 737s after a Turkish Airlines crash Feb. 25, 2009, near Amsterdam that killed nine and injured 117"

So a feature that is standard on all Airbus FBW aircraft since 1995, and has been urged by the NTSB to the FAA. The FAA have sat on the NTSB recommendation for years.The Dutch safety investigators come up with similar conclusions, Boeing starts installing the software update to 737s.

Boeing did not roll out the software update to 747, 757, 767, 777, or 787.

And you want to ONLY point the finger at the flight crew ?

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-07-19 18:33:04 and read 5916 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 26):
Why not? Should pilots in general not be prosecuted even if evidenciary facts establish negligence in performing duties resulting in deaths or serious injury?

The whole point is to find information to prevent a future crash. Its a fundamental right to be exempt from self-incrimination. So if there is going to be prosecution... The pilot gets a lawyer and that's that.

I do think the pilot should be fired for incompetence. But that isn't the same as criminal prosecution.

Interviewing the pilots will give a better answer to preventing future crashes. Would you rather have someone in jail or future lives saved?

This is partially why:

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):
Airbus has a warning that says "speed speed speed" every five seconds between 2,000 and 100 feet when an aircraft goes too slow. The equipment is on the A320 family since 1995 and on all A330, 340, 350 and 380 aircraft.

Thank you. The goal of crash investigations are to find solutions. Features that are 'stuck in the aerospace bureaucracy.' IMHO, this will (hopefully) push though the software upgrade to all the compatible Boeing aircraft. Note: I'm fairly sure the 741/742/743 lack the networked hardware to implement and I do not know if the 757/767 are retrofit-able. The A320 and 777 really brought aircraft systems up to a new level that allows software to do far more than in prior aircraft. However, I believe the 744 'electronic flight deck' has all the interconnects.

That's the problem with working in R&D. What I take for granted won't be in the fleet for 10 to 30 years.  

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-07-19 18:47:22 and read 5878 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 31):
IMHO, this will (hopefully) push though the software upgrade to all the compatible Boeing aircraft.

B777s don't crash every day because they don't have this particular piece of software. Are we at the point where we can skip this software upgrade and give the aircraft away to computers altogether? Do we really need pilots if we are relying on computers to even check speed for them and gently remind them they are professional pilots? I thought someone cannot be a pilot if he/she is not capable of checking speed when landing.

Sorry it looks like I'm asking you all these questions, I'm just thinking (=venting) if pilots' profession should be renamed to something else and if their paychecks should be adjusted accordingly if they do not possess basic skills.

[Edited 2013-07-19 18:55:44]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-19 21:11:20 and read 5604 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):

If I have a pilot who cannot monitor his instruments correctly to notice they're low, leave alone do a visual without screwing it up, then I'll fly an airline with competent pilots. Your claim is ridiculous really. You accuse others of being Armchair Safety investigators but you are the only one I've seen suggest auto-throttle problems and lack of speed warnings even though the NTSB hasn't said anything about Auto-throttle issues. You've said it a million times to stick with facts so may I suggest you do the same in regards to this accident and not suggest A/T malfunction or Speed warnings.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-07-19 23:43:09 and read 5291 times.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 32):
B777s don't crash every day because they don't have this particular piece of software.

That alone is not evidence of anything, how many close encounters ? Why has there been 20 accidents like that on many different aircraft types ? Why did the NTSB and the Dutch make the recommendations ?

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 33):
If I have a pilot who cannot monitor his instruments correctly to notice they're low, leave alone do a visual without screwing it up, then I'll fly an airline with competent pilots. Your claim is ridiculous really.

They are not "my" claims, it is the safety recommendation of the NTSB and the Dutch investigators. The comments about the 777 speed tone warning being confusing came from the FAA. Did you read the USA Today article I linked in reply 30 ? The FAA comments are in there.

Please get your facts straight.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 33):
You accuse others of being Armchair Safety investigators but you are the only one I've seen suggest auto-throttle problems and lack of speed warnings even though the NTSB hasn't said anything about Auto-throttle issues.

The issue with a particular 737 autothrottle was identified by the Dutch investigators in the report of the Turkish 737 accident in AMS. The fault was not even a feature of the aircraft that had the accident, they had a different problem, the aircraft had an autothrottle made by another supplier. It was an accident waiting to happen, nobody knew of that the autopilot on a lot of 737 did not function as designed. They also found other issues with the aircraft which are outlined in the report. That is an example of a problem that was identified during the investigation process that people on here already had "determined" to be pilot error. This is all obvious once you have read the report.

The lack of unique low speed warning has been a safety recommendation by the NTSB and Dutch to the FAA, Boeing stated to to install that on 737s after the AMS crash. It is the FAA that has not acted upon this.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 33):
You've said it a million times to stick with facts so may I suggest you do the same in regards to this accident and not suggest A/T malfunction or Speed warnings.

If you actually read my posts, and the sources that I provide with them, that information is coming from not me, it is coming from air safety investigators or the FAA.

I have not stated any cause of the accident, all I have stated it is my view that there were numerous causal factors which were not in that cockpit. That is based upon facts released by the NTSB. I have not claimed "pilot error", nor have I ruled it out. ALPA have been saying the same thing, if you actually read what they are saying in their statements.

e.g. from http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/Pre...ressReleases/2013/7-8-13_13.34.htm
"This premature release of partial data is often taken out of context and creates the impression that the NTSB has already determined probable cause even before the investigation has started. Since each factor of flight, landing, airport environment, and crew is part of safe air travel, we need to ensure that reckless release of information is not sensationalized by the media for the purpose of a few headlines."

and http://www.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/Pre...ressReleases/2013/7-9-13_13.35.htm

" Without the full body of facts surrounding a catastrophic event, partial or incomplete information can lead to erroneous conclusions and, in turn, skew the perception of individuals’ behavior. This could then lead to misguided assessments of the crew’s intentions and actions.

ALPA calls on the international aviation community, including our government and industry safety partners around the world, to redouble its efforts to gather the full body of factual knowledge necessary and release that information accordingly"

No one is trying to hide anything, what they are after are all the facts in due course, in the correct context.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-19 23:52:21 and read 5267 times.

They didn't need a Bitchin' Betty anyway. The bunkie was yelling "sink rate" and they ignored him.

The most interesting part, which nobody has mentioned, is that the NTSB revealed that there were multiple automation inputs in the last few moments of the flight. Someone needs to go look at that American Airlines Training Academy youtube video from 16 years ago and remind these guys, as did that video, that the airplane WILL NOT respond instantly to such inputs, because automation "doesn't understand the concept of NOW". And yet in the AA video, we have the example of a guy in the sim trying to use VNAV and LNAV inputs to avoid a midair, and the guys in the Fokker at DFW who were given a sidestep in beautiful VMC and tried to execute it with the FMC rather than just flying the dang plane -- they landed on approach frequency without having received a landing clearance. These screwups DO occur when people are overly-reliant on the automation and try to use it instead of what Captain Dave says the Schoolhouse regards as the "Emergency Flight Controls" -- the stick, rudder and throttles.

I will be very interested to see how much they were messing with the automation rather than flying the plane. That is something that can be corrected, but if I understand the cockpit culture at the Korean airlines, where they are uncomfortable using the Emergency Flight Controls, it's going to take a lot of training and practice to fix the problem.

[Edited 2013-07-19 23:53:24]

[Edited 2013-07-19 23:54:28]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-20 00:21:27 and read 5197 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 33):
You accuse others of being Armchair Safety investigators but you are the only one I've seen suggest auto-throttle problems and lack of speed warnings even though the NTSB hasn't said anything about Auto-throttle issues.

Actually, they did. They stated that the PM said he assumed the auto-throttles were maintaining speed, then saw that they weren't. That's an auto-throttle issue - even if the system were functioning normally, a misunderstanding on the part of the crew as to what the system was doing is a human factors issue that would need addressing.

I would also note that they they didn't mention any flaws, they also have not said that the auto-throttles were working normally, so there could have been a flaw in the system that they haven't yet corroborated. That's the danger of saying issues were found with a certain aspect of a crash - people tend to latch onto those and disregard other issues that may or may not come up later once the investigators have had more time to look through more information.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 35):
The most interesting part, which nobody has mentioned, is that the NTSB revealed that there were multiple automation inputs in the last few moments of the flight.

I don't remember hearing this - do you have a source for it?

-Mir

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-07-20 00:22:52 and read 5189 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
what they are after are all the facts in due course, in the correct context.

Surely the other side of that coin, Zeke, is that facts that indicate that urgent action may be needed should surely be put out as soon as possible? One example of that is provided by one of Deborah Hersman's briefings:-

"The three pilots in the cockpit voiced no concern about airspeed until the Boeing 777 was 100 feet above the bay, when the jet was well under its target speed and close to stalling, according to an analysis of the flight recorder.

"The issue is important because the senior training captain in charge of the crew, Lee Jeong-min, told investigators this week that he had noticed that the plane was flying too slowly at 200 feet, or 18 seconds before it crashed. When he moved to push the automatic throttle forward and increase speed, he said, he discovered that another pilot had already done so.

"No one in the cockpit said anything about flying too slowly, however, for nine crucial seconds.

"What I'm telling you is that from 500 feet to 100 feet, there is no mention of speed," said Deborah Hersman, chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board, which is leading the investigation into the crash."


http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...talk-of-speed-in-cabin-4660503.php

I think she was perfectly correct to make that point. Whatever else emerges from the investigation of this crash, it's already clear that Asiana (and no doubt many other airlines) should urgently run some check-rides to make sure their pilots are fully-capable of flying manual/visual approaches if required?

[Edited 2013-07-20 00:25:10]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: ThrottleHold
Posted 2013-07-20 00:28:05 and read 5171 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 11):
The fact is that these pilots most likely messed up.
Quoting planespotting (Reply 14):
this was likely a fluke event caused by pilot error (and not some systemic issue or problem with the 777)
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 21):
The difference is that it's obvious pilot error
Quoting norcal (Reply 28):
From everything published about this accident it appears to be pilot error.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 31):
I do think the pilot should be fired for incompetence.

Sure, let's just shut down the NTSB. Obviously it's not needed as you guys can solve the intricate details of any accident by botching together the "facts".
Reading these posts just demonstrates how little you all know about flight operations.

I have 9,000 hours of multi jet airline time, including nearly 3,000 on the 777. I don't know the facts, and I won't be jumping to any conclusions until the official final NTSB report is published. To do so, would mean joining the band of armchair experts who wouldn't know their a** from their elbow, but feel amply qualified to castigate us professionals.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-20 06:46:43 and read 4866 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
Actually, they did. They stated that the PM said he assumed the auto-throttles were maintaining speed, then saw that they weren't. That's an auto-throttle issue - even if the system were functioning normally, a misunderstanding on the part of the crew as to what the system was doing is a human factors issue that would need addressing.

The pilot making an assumption that turns out not to be correct doesn't mean the system failed. It could be he turned on the heater in the back thinking the A/T was set as it should for all we know

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 38):
Sure, let's just shut down the NTSB. Obviously it's not needed as you guys can solve the intricate details of any accident by botching together the "facts".
Reading these posts just demonstrates how little you all know about flight operations.

I have 9,000 hours of multi jet airline time, including nearly 3,000 on the 777. I don't know the facts, and I won't be jumping to any conclusions until the official final NTSB report is published. To do so, would mean joining the band of armchair experts who wouldn't know their a** from their elbow, but feel amply qualified to castigate us professionals.

You must be a member or ALPA and if not, you'd make a great member. I don't think anyone you quoted above claimed to know for a fact that pilot error caused the accident, but the facts provided by the NTSB so far seem to suggest it was. Blame the game, not the player and after all, the training pilot had the same amount of hours on a 777 as you do and look how well his 777 experience worked out for him!

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-20 06:57:15 and read 4838 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
Please get your facts straight.

The Problem with your 'facts' in regards to this accident is they're based on another accident, the TK crash.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: David L
Posted 2013-07-20 07:24:57 and read 4753 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 40):
The Problem with your 'facts' in regards to this accident is they're based on another accident, the TK crash.

... And serve as an illustration that so-called "pilot error" often involves a multitude of contributing factors, some of which need to be addressed regardless of pilot competence. I don't see pointing that out as a problem.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: ThrottleHold
Posted 2013-07-20 07:50:48 and read 4688 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 39):
You must be a member or ALPA and if not, you'd make a great member.

Once again you are wrong. I've never been a member.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 39):
I don't think anyone you quoted above claimed to know for a fact that pilot error caused the accident,

Seems pretty clear that this is their opinion of the "facts" to me, given the following quotes.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 31):
I do think the pilot should be fired for incompetence.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 21):
The difference is that it's obvious pilot error
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 39):
Blame the game, not the player and after all, the training pilot had the same amount of hours on a 777 as you do and look how well his 777 experience worked out for him!

Please tell me what exact experience and knowledge you have that enables you to make your statements about the incident?
Just how many hours in the operating seat of a 777 do you have? My guess is it's pretty much close to zero in any cockpit.
I don't go online and post on forums telling doctors and lawyers how to do their jobs, so how come armchair experts like yourself feel the need to 2nd guess professional pilots?

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-07-20 08:01:54 and read 4658 times.

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 42):
I don't go online and post on forums telling doctors and lawyers how to do their jobs, so how come armchair experts like yourself feel the need to 2nd guess professional pilots?

I'd say the second-guessing comes from the fact that a 777 was flown into the ground. And I don't even consider myself an armchair beginner, but I don't think I'm telling a pilot how to do his job when I wonder why he failed to put a plane on a two-mile stretch of concrete in near-perfect conditions with (as the initial observations indicate so far) no obvious instrumental or mechanical problems.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2013-07-20 08:27:42 and read 4606 times.

The NTSB comments shortly after the crash of OZ 214 did pretty much blame the pilots in the opinion of most people.

Airline pilots have a fraternal (and maternal) sense or bond with each other. If your brother or sister is accused of doing something wrong, you will defend them out of that bond. ALPA is going to protect and support them to the end of an investigation and even beyond, the ALPA leadership is mainly asking that any assessment of blame or share of it as to the pilots only be after a through investigation, especially if a cause is more about something not in the control of the pilots. They don't want pilots to face criminal penalties, as could happen to those on OZ 214 as could have long range affects on their job. I bet many of you wished in your workplaces you has such support when something goes wrong and you are accused and face being fired or disciplined.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-20 09:32:24 and read 4501 times.

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 42):
Please tell me what exact experience and knowledge you have that enables you to make your statements about the incident?
Just how many hours in the operating seat of a 777 do you have? My guess is it's pretty much close to zero in any cockpit.
I don't go online and post on forums telling doctors and lawyers how to do their jobs, so how come armchair experts like yourself feel the need to 2nd guess professional pilots?

Read below because I couldn't have said it any better:

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 43):
I'd say the second-guessing comes from the fact that a 777 was flown into the ground. And I don't even consider myself an armchair beginner, but I don't think I'm telling a pilot how to do his job when I wonder why he failed to put a plane on a two-mile stretch of concrete in near-perfect conditions with (as the initial observations indicate so far) no obvious instrumental or mechanical problems.

You're right about one thing, I have zero hours on a 777 and that will most probably be the case for the rest of my life, but I am proud of my 385 hours on a Cessna so I am not as clue-less about aviation as you assume. Nobody is telling you how to do your job and I am not sure how you interpreted that from my comments. Get off your pedestal sir! I'll tell you what I do second guess though, the fact that 3 competent pilots landing short of a runway on a clear day.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: David L
Posted 2013-07-20 10:27:25 and read 4390 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):
The NTSB comments shortly after the crash of OZ 214 did pretty much blame the pilots in the opinion of most people.

If that's true, and I'm not convinced that it is, then I'd question the quality of those opinions - they're opinions I'd expect to find elsewhere on the internet but not here. All the NTSB has done is release a few quantitive facts with a caveat that there is a whole lot of work and analysis to be done before conclusions can be reached. The fact that some have interpreted that information to mean that it was pilot error with no significant contributing factors makes me pretty relieved that they're not responsible for flight safety.

Perhaps I need to change my mind about ALPA's statements. Perhaps the NTSB did underestimate the public's abilty to "stretch the arithmetic" and get two and two to total five.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-20 10:29:57 and read 4394 times.

What's funny to me is that when lawyers screw up or otherwise do something beneath the standards of the profession, other lawyers participate in removing them from the profession, and usually are quick to recognize the wrongdoer's errors and judge them harshly, even if there but for the grace of god go I. We know our responsibilities, and those who don't uphold them shouldn't have them.

Nobody should ever want the experience of having to explain yourself to a bar committee. It's a harsh and unforgiving encounter, as it should be.

Oddly, pilots as a professional group seem on this forum more and more to be a group of professional excuse-makers skilled in letting themselves off the hook and assuming that they are never to blame.

Thank god for folks like MD88Captain, who will call a screw-up a screw-up, takes pride in doing it right, and doesn't coddle others in the profession who don't. I'd fly with him any day. The guys who want to say I have ten zillion hours in the 797 and I won't criticize my poor breathren who saved 200 people from the clutches of a wildly-malfunctioning aircraft on a horrible day at an inadquate airport, you should be ashamed.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 11:04:20 and read 4299 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 45):
I'll tell you what I do second guess though, the fact that 3 competent pilots landing short of a runway on a clear day.

You are assuming they are competent. I refer you my previous post:

Quoting norcal (Reply 28):
From everything published about this accident it appears to be pilot error. That actually isn't what's important though, what is important is why he made the error and why there appears to be such poor CRM in that cockpit.

I'd personally be interested in knowing how many hours the Captain was hired with. I really don't care that he had 10,000 hours at the time of the accident because you don't learn basic airmanship flying a commercial airliner. You are supposed to learn how to do things like shoot a visual approach before you get hired. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn this Asiana pilot was a low time hire and was passed through the program to fill a seat.

It could also be a case of over reliance on automation, some pilots are bad with this. Like any skill, hand flying has to be practiced and often times automation is more of hindrance then a help. If it's clear and a million and you see the runway there is no reason why a professional pilot shouldn't be able to land the aircraft with out any form of vertical guidance. You must be well versed in how to do this because you never know when stuff will break.

Then again it is totally possible that this is simply a complete and total screw up by this pilot. I hope this isn't the case because this leaves no room for possible safety improvements. I hope it turns out to be a systematic problem with Asiana's training or hiring practices because that can be easily fixed. Stupidity can't unfortunately.

I'd also like to add that CRM hasn't taken very well in certain countries due to cultural issues, Korea being one of them.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
Oddly, pilots as a professional group seem on this forum more and more to be a group of professional excuse-makers skilled in letting themselves off the hook and assuming that they are never to blame.

You aren't seeing excuses being made to try and get people off the hook, but rather "excuses" (I'd rather call it contributing factors instead) to determine why the error was made and more importantly is there anything we can learn from it. I myself have thrown many a pilot under the bus here when it's appropriate, especially the ones caught drinking.

An example of something that evolved from studying contributing factors is CRM. The pattern of accidents linked to poor crew member communications and coordination wouldn't have been solved if the industry attributed them just to pilot error and moved on. If we had taken the typical A-net approach and just crucified the pilots for errors instead of trying to learn from it then we never would have fixed the systematic problems with old style cockpit culture.


I'm not excusing the lack of poor airmanship demonstrated by these Asiana pilots. Airspeed management is flying 101. However the investigation shouldn't end there and other contributing factors, like perhaps this potential auto-throttle issue, should be explored since there might be a negative safety trend developing. Perhaps further investigation reveals that there is a problem with the software or perhaps it reveals that Asiana is training their pilots to be over reliant on automation. Who knows, but I hope any and all human factors issues are explored by investigators.

All of you armchair experts seem satisfied with blaming the pilots and not entertaining the idea of contributing factors. If that was the prevailing attitude amongst the real safety experts then this industry would never see safety improvements.

Again before all you go on some rant calling me a protectionist pilot let me reiterate this one point:

I'm not excusing the Asiana pilots' incredibly poor airmanship. They flew that plane into the ground. When I say I want to look into contributing factors, I'm not looking for an excuse to get them off the hook, but rather for a potential opportunity to improve safety if it becomes apparent that there is some kind of negative safety pattern.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 45):
You're right about one thing, I have zero hours on a 777 and that will most probably be the case for the rest of my life, but I am proud of my 385 hours on a Cessna so I am not as clue-less about aviation as you assume

In all honesty, 385 hours is just about enough knowledge to kill yourself with out having the experience to see it coming.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-20 11:07:35 and read 4288 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
What's funny to me is that when lawyers screw up or otherwise do something beneath the standards of the profession, other lawyers participate in removing them from the profession, and usually are quick to recognize the wrongdoer's errors and judge them harshly, even if there but for the grace of god go I. We know our responsibilities, and those who don't uphold them shouldn't have them.

Nobody should ever want the experience of having to explain yourself to a bar committee. It's a harsh and unforgiving encounter, as it should be.

Oddly, pilots as a professional group seem on this forum more and more to be a group of professional excuse-makers skilled in letting themselves off the hook and assuming that they are never to blame.

Thank god for folks like MD88Captain, who will call a screw-up a screw-up, takes pride in doing it right, and doesn't coddle others in the profession who don't. I'd fly with him any day. The guys who want to say I have ten zillion hours in the 797 and I won't criticize my poor breathren who saved 200 people from the clutches of a wildly-malfunctioning aircraft on a horrible day at an inadquate airport, you should be ashamed.

   Very very well-said!

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: David L
Posted 2013-07-20 11:13:39 and read 4269 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
What's funny to me is that when lawyers screw up or otherwise do something beneath the standards of the profession, other lawyers participate in removing them from the profession, and usually are quick to recognize the wrongdoer's errors and judge them harshly, even if there but for the grace of god go I. We know our responsibilities, and those who don't uphold them shouldn't have them.

Talk about apples and oranges. How often do lawyers have 30 seconds to make a critical decision and not have hours or days to back out once they've had time to think about it? I don't know whether or not I should be surprised that a lawyer wouldn't want to know the full facts before declaring a verdict.

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):

Precisely. I don't think anyone has said the crew didn't make mistakes yet there are some who seem to think crew mistakes are all there is to this accident. Let's just keep sacking "incompetent" crews and see how much that advances aviation safety.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-20 13:08:15 and read 4081 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):
In all honesty, 385 hours is just about enough knowledge to kill yourself with out having the experience to see it coming.

Eeh, I haven't killed myself or anyone else, have I?

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-20 13:11:36 and read 4067 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 39):
The pilot making an assumption that turns out not to be correct doesn't mean the system failed. It could be he turned on the heater in the back thinking the A/T was set as it should for all we know

That would be an issue with the auto-throttle system, would it not?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):
The NTSB comments shortly after the crash of OZ 214 did pretty much blame the pilots in the opinion of most people.

Which is a shame, since the NTSB's job isn't to assign blame but rather to prevent future accidents.

Quoting David L (Reply 46):
The fact that some have interpreted that information to mean that it was pilot error with no significant contributing factors makes me pretty relieved that they're not responsible for flight safety.

It also gives some merit to what ALPA's complaints are.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
What's funny to me is that when lawyers screw up or otherwise do something beneath the standards of the profession, other lawyers participate in removing them from the profession, and usually are quick to recognize the wrongdoer's errors and judge them harshly

I'd imagine that any lawyer who tried to convict someone based on a very limited set of evidence when they knew more was forthcoming would find themselves in a lot of trouble with their bar association, yes.

-Mir

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 13:37:58 and read 3969 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 51):
Eeh, I haven't killed myself or anyone else, have I?

No, but you come across with a tone of arrogance. That type of attitude has killed many pilots, especially low time ones when they get into situations they think they can handle but really can't. You keep stating that we are all closing ranks around the Asiana pilots when in fact that isn't true at all. Most of us are looking for the answer to the more important question of why this crash happened and not how it happened. How it happened is the least important answer. What we can learn from this crash is more important. Your lack of understanding of this concept shows you really have no idea how safety works at airlines. I would suggest you pick up a textbook on the subject of aviation safety and/or accident investigation.

I haven't read anything here that suggest pilots want to see these guys absolved of all responsibility and returned to duty. None of us want that because we all want professionalism in the cockpit because we take pride in our work. We also often ride on these aircraft enough to make frequent fliers look like first time fliers so we have a vested interest in making sure only competent pilots are at the controls.


I have nearly 7,000 hours but I don't consider myself an expert but rather an experienced and knowledgeable student. Expertise isn't a destination you arrive at but rather a goal you strive for but never reach.

A truly professional pilot admits that he/she doesn't know everything and that there is always room for improvement or something else to learn.



Oh and on a side note if you really get upset when ALPA does something like defend drunk or incompetent pilots (which I hate ) then you truly have no one to blame but the lawyers. They help the terminated employee sue the crap out both the company and the union the second after termination. There have been times when I wanted to see a pilot fired and stripped of their license, however if the best defense isn't provided a pilot by the union then they sue and they'll win and get their job back anyways. So in all honesty you should really blame the lawyers for the "union protection" you don't like.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-07-20 13:46:06 and read 3947 times.

All I would ask is that the "professional pilots" return to this or another thread and comment when we have the final report to comment on. The ones from AF447 were very interesting.

I have never read an accident report where pilot error was highlighted that didn't have some "causal effect" also mentioned and I've been reading accident reports since the mid sixties. Often times it also comes with yet another recommendation for a "warning message/bell/tone" to indicate to the pilot that he has screwed up. There will always be causal effects.

Also, the last I checked this was not a "professional pilots" forum although we have a lot that post here. Expect to see some criticism .... deal with it. In all honesty, I only have about 1,500 hours and the biggest plane was a King Air, but if you had handed that plane off to me configured correctly at 2000 feet, I think I could have landed on that runway.....under those conditions. After all, even a C150 comes with an airspeed indicator.

AT

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-20 14:09:59 and read 3891 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
That would be an issue with the auto-throttle system, would it not?

Not necessarily.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
Which is a shame, since the NTSB's job isn't to assign blame but rather to prevent future accidents.

To clarify, the NTSB never blamed the pilots. If someone got that out of their news conferences, they made their own conclusions.

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
No, but you come across with a tone of arrogance.

Same way you did so touche'. Classic example of superiority complex claiming I'd kill myself just because I only have 385 hours. I am sure you had the same amount of hours at some point and yet here you are. My initial post was a reply to Throttlehod's comment claiming I have zero experience on a 777 thus I shouldn't speak on the subject which is moot really because having experience on any aircraft doesn't give anyone a leg up on the subject of discussing the cause of the accident. I don't think anyone has told anyone how to fly an airplane on this thread but you pilots have a habit of using that line a lot even when it's irrelevant to the subject.

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
You keep stating that we are all closing ranks around the Asiana pilots when in fact that isn't true at all.

Not all, but some...and you weren't even one of them so chill out.

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
Your lack of understanding of this concept shows you really have no idea how safety works at airlines. I would suggest you pick up a textbook on the subject of aviation safety and/or accident investigation.

And your lack of general knowledge in differentiating between me criticizing ALPA and aviation safety in itself is appalling. Read and understand first before making as ass out of yourself, not sure how you're connecting the dots between me saying the pilots effed up and airline safety in general.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-20 14:12:39 and read 3885 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 51):
Eeh, I haven't killed myself or anyone else, have I?

Nobody has until they do.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 54):
In all honesty, I only have about 1,500 hours and the biggest plane was a King Air, but if you had handed that plane off to me configured correctly at 2000 feet, I think I could have landed on that runway.....under those conditions.

I'd bet the Asiana pilots felt the same way. Yet the crash still happened, so while we all might like to think that we would have done better, we don't have nearly enough evidence to make an educated statement about that.

-Mir

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-07-20 14:23:11 and read 3856 times.

I have followed these threads since the beginning, and I confess that they are quite an entertaining in-depth look at the A.net contributorship.

The first comment I’d make is about what is now called *Hindsight Bias * : We know the outcome of the accident, we have a few facts released by the NTSB and we feel quite free to join in the feeding frenzy and tear apart these crew ( even better when it is an *alien* group of people )… The obvious question I’d like to ask is obviously : ” How does that attitude contribute to improving flight safety ? “

I can’t fail but be amused with the fact that people in this forum don’t seem to have a clue on what is really involved : This crew have done thousands of approaches and landings, on several types of airplanes, a lot of them in VMC, and apparently have done so without any mishap whatsoever.

People also forget – or don’t seem to know – that all pilots have a Bible called the FCOM / FCTM in which the standards for every maneuver are discussed at length in order to promote flight safety in the guise of the airline *Flight Standards* leading to what we call SOPs.

People also ignore – or don’t want to consider – the events in the environment of this approach : What did the ATC clear them for ? How did the geometry of the approach change 1/- with ATC instructions (the 6° descent prior to stabilization ) ; 2/-visual estimation of height over water + radio altimeter information in these conditions.

People don’t have a clue on the characteristics of this cockpit : Was PM still in the *monitoring mode* when he left his Flight Director on – against all known SOPs - ? What FD mode was he in ? and was he conscious of the fact that the T7 didn’t have any speed protection below 400 ft when the divergence between Vref and the IAS became significant ?

There is an underlying problematic misconception in this thread : If an expert – be he/she a surgeon, a racing driver, a nuclear station engineer, a pilot … makes a mistake, it is *obviously* evidence of lacking skill, vigilance, consciousness, airmanship… That misconception is both very simplistic and wrong.
As a matter of fact, the main question should be : if pilots of the same skill and experience were to face a similar situation, would they be vulnerable to making the same kind of errors that led to the accident ?... and if so, WHY ?

As usual, the NTSB will identify the errors made by the crew, discuss the human factors that could have affected them, but will stop short of drawing conclusions that link the errors to the underlying causes. It will be up to the OEM and the airlines’ training departments to take the necessary measures.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 14:46:55 and read 3798 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 55):
I am sure you had the same amount of hours at some point and yet here you are.

Yes I did, but I didn't have your attitude. I was far more humble.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 55):
Classic example of superiority complex claiming I'd kill myself just because I only have 385 hours.

Not a claim, a warning. You come across as a know it all. Arrogance like that kills people



You clearly don't understand aviation safety based on these comments:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 39):
The pilot making an assumption that turns out not to be correct doesn't mean the system failed. It could be he turned on the heater in the back thinking the A/T was set as it should for all we know
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 40):
The Problem with your 'facts' in regards to this accident is they're based on another accident, the TK crash.

What safety experts look for are trends. If there is a rash of accidents involving a similar circumstances then perhaps there is a connection. It could be poor training techniques or perhaps there really is an issue with the auto throttle software. The issue must be explored to prove it is unrelated instead of just assuming it isn't like you are doing.

AGAIN, that doesn't excuse the fact that the pilots made an error or absolve them of responsibility.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 55):
Read and understand first before making as ass out of yourself, not sure how you're connecting the dots between me saying the pilots effed up and airline safety in general.

Explain to me how then saying the pilots "effed up" improves airline safety? It is true but that doesn't help anything because there are always other factors.


If you were in charge of airline safety CRM never would have been invented, TCAS wouldn't be in aircraft, and GPWS never would have come to be. Everything would have been "pilots effed" up let's ridicule them and move on. That type of attitude misses the opportunity to learn from mistakes and improve safety. Again no one is saying the pilots should be excused what we are asking is the far more important question of why the error was made.

Until all the facts are available, the question of why can't be answered accurately.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 14:49:09 and read 3801 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 57):
As a matter of fact, the main question should be : if pilots of the same skill and experience were to face a similar situation, would they be vulnerable to making the same kind of errors that led to the accident ?... and if so, WHY ?

Perfectly stated

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: DashTrash
Posted 2013-07-20 15:12:40 and read 3749 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 47):
Oddly, pilots as a professional group seem on this forum more and more to be a group of professional excuse-makers skilled in letting themselves off the hook and assuming that they are never to blame.

Professional pilots on this forum visit with the realization that we aren't well liked. Check any labor / management thread or any thread discussing one of the labor unions.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):

That would be an issue with the auto-throttle system, would it not?

My take is no, unless other crews flying the same system have trouble identifying it's position.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):

Which is a shame, since the NTSB's job isn't to assign blame but rather to prevent future accidents.

The NTSB does assign blame. That blame my lie on the crew, fatigue, weather, aircraft maintenance, etc, but it is blame.

ALPA was spot on with this statement. While it is common that information is disseminated to the public before the final report is out, in this case that information has been pretty damning. With this particular instance they should have kept it quiet.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-07-20 15:51:32 and read 3677 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 41):
And serve as an illustration that so-called "pilot error" often involves a multitude of contributing factors, some of which need to be addressed regardless of pilot competence. I don't see pointing that out as a problem.

This thread is making one distinction very clear. Professional pilots who post here do not directly blame pilots for this accident and try to find and understand other contributing factors. That's all good and goes with the territory. Customers, on the other hand, expect to be flown from point A to point B without being killed as they assume pilots who possess a professional pilot license are properly trained. Is this too much of an expectation from the flying public?

Quoting norcal (Reply 48):
I'm not excusing the lack of poor airmanship demonstrated by these Asiana pilots. Airspeed management is flying 101. However the investigation shouldn't end there and other contributing factors, like perhaps this potential auto-throttle issue, should be explored since there might be a negative safety trend developing. Perhaps further investigation reveals that there is a problem with the software or perhaps it reveals that Asiana is training their pilots to be over reliant on automation. Who knows, but I hope any and all human factors issues are explored by investigators.

All of you armchair experts seem satisfied with blaming the pilots and not entertaining the idea of contributing factors. If that was the prevailing attitude amongst the real safety experts then this industry would never see safety improvements.

This is a good summary of what's going on in this thread. Who in his right mind would not want to learn from this accident?!? Who even said that and where? At the same time, why is it a heresy to say that pilots might have messed up? My clients expect me to do my job right and I have every right to expect the same from the pilots whose customer I am.

And what does it even mean "armchair experts" here on A.net? Regarding this accident, even if you are a professional pilot you are just as much of an armchair expert as anyone else posting here. No one here has access to the NTSB investigation, so this is all speculation be it from pilots or us "bad-wishers".

Quoting Pihero (Reply 57):
We know the outcome of the accident, we have a few facts released by the NTSB and we feel quite free to join in the feeding frenzy and tear apart these crew ( even better when it is an *alien* group of people )… The obvious question I’d like to ask is obviously : ” How does that attitude contribute to improving flight safety ? “

Again, who said we should just blame the pilots and leave it at that? This notion of how bunch of us don't care about aviation safety is a self-serving blame game pilots came up with so we feel really bad we even dare to question someone's skills.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 16:40:09 and read 3561 times.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Customers, on the other hand, expect to be flown from point A to point B without being killed as they assume pilots who possess a professional pilot license are properly trained. Is this too much of an expectation from the flying public?

This statement doesn't contradict this statement:

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
This thread is making one distinction very clear. Professional pilots who post here do not directly blame pilots for this accident and try to find and understand other contributing factors. That's all good and goes with the territory.

And to clarify this, I am directly blaming the pilots for the error because they got too slow. However I want to know why they made this error. The answer could be as simple as they made a mistake and that seems to be the answer that the A-net crowd is satisfied with. There is a big resistance to even consider other contributing factors that lead to this error.

I'm not satisfied with the a-net answer because all the pertinent information hasn't been released yet and there could be a deeper reason why this error was made. It could be that there is deficient training or perhaps over reliance on the automation company wide. If that is the case it must be corrected so that you the customer flying from point A to point B knows you do have a competent trained pilot.

I'm not saying that is what happened, just an example of a possibility. We will not know until all the facts are gathered and analyzed. Deciding that this was simply pilot error eliminates the possibility of further exploration of contributing factors and could perhaps leave the problem uncorrected which could lead to another accident.

I point to the evolution of CRM as an example of looking at contributing factors leading to accidents and how correcting them can greatly improve safety.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Regarding this accident, even if you are a professional pilot you are just as much of an armchair expert as anyone else posting here.

Which is why I'm saying don't jump to conclusions until all the facts are gathered.

[Edited 2013-07-20 16:40:52]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-07-20 17:01:12 and read 3521 times.

The phrase 'PILOT ERROR' should be stricken from the language.

IF the plane was working normally, and they and thousands of other pilots have flown much more difficult approaches with successful landings, what was different this time?

I am no apologist but pointing fingers does nothing to prevent another accident. These guys didn't drive the thing into the ground on a lark or a suicide mission...it looks like they screwed up so how do we prevent screwups like this from happening again?

That's the job of the NTSB and should really be what anybody who flies is concerned about and is how flying gets safer.

Was it bad or ignored CRM, distraction, glare, too much automation, not enough automation ,or all or some or none of these? Why should any pilot have to be told by the machine that they are too low mere seconds from landing? Hell, the ground is right there out the window for all to see. It sounds too far fetched to possibly be true...but it happened, and it's happened before...but WHY...?

There's that damned pesky question again. What started the chain of events that led to the accident? How were links added? What kept the chain from being broken. The accident event sequence possibly started before this flight even took off

Just think...if one event in the long series that created this accident could have been avoided and prevented it, how often have aircraft been only one link away from tragedy....but survived? Think of what we could learn from all of those almost accidents. Unfortunately, any landing you can walk away from is a success so most of those lessons probably go unlearned by others. Instead, we have to learn our lessons from actual tragedies.

If lynching these guys would make flying safer, then let's string them up. Hell, I'll get the rope...but I really don't think that would do one little thing to improve safety.

What went wrong and how to fix it is more important than who gets blamed...

...as always, in my opinion.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-07-20 17:45:18 and read 3428 times.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Again, who said we should just blame the pilots and leave it at that? This notion of how bunch of us don't care about aviation safety is a self-serving blame game pilots came up with so we feel really bad we even dare to question someone's skills.

Problem is you don't have much to defend yourself ; Comments like "Pïlot error. period. / Pilot effed up. / passengers expect to be flown from point A to point B without being killed as they assume pilots who possess a professional pilot license are properly trained. ...
...it goes all into the problematic misconception I referred to.

I don't know how long you've been in this forum. There is a repetitive characteristic : thousands of posts of speculation and blame... until the official report is published. Then you'd be lucky to have 50 posts ( AF447 is the excep^tion that confirms the rule, but in fact the feeding frenzy kept going on as people weren't happy with the way the report was written ).
So, pleeeaase, I know bull when I see or read one.

Yes, pilots make mistakes. The best of us do . The role of those involved in flight safety is to put enough safeguards to minimize the extent / results of these mistakes : CRM is evolving everyday and so are technological improvements.

To illustrate my points, on both the human aspect of an error and how it's effect was reduced, I'd take Captain Sullenberger's Hudson ditching.

Nobody on this forum ever noticed that after the birdstrikes, Captain Sullenberger made a big mistake : He immediately called for the QRH referenced "DUAL ENGINE FAILURE" check-list. It's a five-page, multiple branching check-list which is fairly complex to deal with.

The problem was he lost his F/O to execute all the items of that procedure, run the risk of losing further systems - hydraulics come to mind - as the F/O went into shutting / relighting the running engines... etc... Had the crew taken the time to read the ECAM, they would have discovered that the engines were still running, albeit at a low thrust - one at sub-idle.

As his quick decision of ditching into the Hudson river was the new project and strategy, he would have the F/O execute the ditching check-list, just the 13 lines of it ; they would have kept on having good synergy and the F/O could have advised him on two important points : landing with full flaps and "Ditching " switchlight depressed...

As it happened, Captain Sullenberger's made-up-as-it went-along procedures worked on that day : the touch-down wasn't too hard at that high speed and that high a nose-up attitude and everybody survived.

We come again to the *hindsight bias* : everybody survived. Period. The pilot did a sterling job. Period. Let's pass on...

Did he do everything right ? Or shall we just forget all about the circumstances ?
Fortunately for aviation safety, quite a few training departments I know have made it their job to analyze what really happened.

That Captain Sullenberger is a rather exceptional pilot shouldn't hide the fact that at the very least he made things a lot more complicated for himself than they should have been.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 61):
Regarding this accident, even if you are a professional pilot you are just as much of an armchair expert as anyone else posting here. No one here has access to the NTSB investigation, so this is all speculation be it from pilots or us "bad-wishers".

The huge difference is that the professional pilots on this forum have - almost unanimously - refrained from blame, be it on the pilots, the aircraft or the green little men. They've also refrained from speculations as there are very few facts to base a theory on... Fact as : *factors leading to the accident*.
The USALPA doesn't say anything different.

To be perfectly honest, pointing at some perceived civilisation criteria, lack of training, resistance to CRM... etc... to me is quite obscene.

Just my two cents.

[Edited 2013-07-20 17:50:20]

[Edited 2013-07-20 17:55:31]

[Edited 2013-07-20 17:57:52]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 19:01:04 and read 3329 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 63):
Just think...if one event in the long series that created this accident could have been avoided and prevented it, how often have aircraft been only one link away from tragedy....but survived? Think of what we could learn from all of those almost accidents. Unfortunately, any landing you can walk away from is a success so most of those lessons probably go unlearned by others. Instead, we have to learn our lessons from actual tragedies.

This is what programs like ASAP are for. It allows pilots to self-disclose minor mistakes with out fear of retribution from the FAA or the company. These are mistakes that could easily be the start of a series of events that lead to an accident.

The amount of data generated, and the negative safety trends identified have proven invaluable. There is simply no way to definitively prove how many accidents programs like this or the development of other safety things CRM have prevented but I can promise you it is a lot.

The success of something like ASAP goes back to the idea of learning from mistakes (in this case small, inconsequential ones) in order to identify potential problem areas and potentially break an accident chain before a tragedy occurs.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-07-20 19:05:00 and read 3315 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 65):

I never heard of ASAP....good to know....thanks.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 20:50:51 and read 3198 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 66):
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/

It is very similar in concept to the ASRS system used by general aviation.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2013-07-20 21:59:25 and read 3116 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 58):
Not a claim, a warning. You come across as a know it all. Arrogance like that kills people

Funny you said that because you sound like those pilots nobody wants to fly with. The my way or the highway kinda pilots. You could learn a lot from the likes of respected pilots like Pihero, Philsquares, 76er, mandala499 etc although I haven't seen him in a while. Anyways, not worth it going back and forth with you so it is what it is.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-07-20 22:15:26 and read 3094 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 62):
We will not know until all the facts are gathered and analyzed.

I don't remember saying that "the investigation should be closed as I believe this is a pilot error and we shouldn't learn anything from it". Sorry if I'm reading too much into what you guys post here, but I see this subtle accusation in most of the pilot messages here.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 64):
The huge difference is that the professional pilots on this forum have - almost unanimously - refrained from blame, be it on the pilots, the aircraft or the green little men. They've also refrained from speculations as there are very few facts to base a theory on...

Pihero, first off, thanks for taking time to write a long and detailed response. My impression was that pilots were speculating away from a possible pilot error and into other factors for collegial reasons, but looking back I think I will read these messages with a different pair of glasses. I got a sense of where you all are coming from and if I offended anyone, I'm sorry.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 64):
Problem is you don't have much to defend yourself

Some of these are not mine and I don't want to be an advocate of all the "customers".

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 63):
What went wrong and how to fix it is more important than who gets blamed...

I agree.

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-07-20 22:31:42 and read 3057 times.

Looks like 'some pennies are dropping' in South Korea:-

"South Korea plans to tighten aviation rules and could consider allowing airlines to hire more foreign pilots as the crash of an Asiana Airlines Inc. (020560) jet raises concerns about the nation’s safety regulations.

"The government will draw up the stricter rules in about three months after studying regulations on the training of pilots, cabin crew and maintenance personnel, said Kwon Yong Bok, director general of aviation safety policy at the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport. A committee comprising aviation industry and government officials will meet next week to review the current rules, he said in an interview yesterday.

"Three people were killed while more than 300 survived after Asiana’s Boeing Co. 777 crashed at San Francisco International Airport on July 6, the first fatal airline accident in the U.S. since 2009. U.S. crash investigators are examining the manual flying skills and cockpit teamwork among the pilots of Flight 214 as they probe reasons for the accident."


http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...les-in-3-months-after-asiana-crash

"SEOUL, South Korea — Asiana Airlines of South Korea said Monday that it would increase training for its pilots after the crash of one of its Boeing 777 jets at San Francisco International Airport.

"Asiana will give special safety training, including an enhanced program for visual approaches and automated flight, to all of its pilots. It said it would also strengthen its training programs for those switching to a new type of jet, a senior executive said in a presentation to the South Korean Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport."


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/bu...ana-to-bolster-pilot-training.html

And this is 'unofficial' - but nevertheless electrifying if true:-

"We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.

"This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued to fly while talking about how unfair Captain so-and-so was."


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3041469/posts

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-20 22:36:23 and read 3032 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 68):
Funny you said that because you sound like those pilots nobody wants to fly with. The my way or the highway kinda pilots.

Your opinion I guess, but like I said before I'm always looking to learn something new:

Quoting norcal (Reply 53):
A truly professional pilot admits that he/she doesn't know everything and that there is always room for improvement or something else to learn.

but I guess my admittance that safety and expertise are moving targets makes me a "my way or the highway kinda of pilot."  Yeah sure
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 68):
You could learn a lot from the likes of respected pilots like Pihero

Ironic, considering his viewpoint on this matter and mine are pretty much identical....

[Edited 2013-07-20 22:37:07]

Topic: RE: U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-20 23:01:04 and read 2973 times.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 69):
My impression was that pilots were speculating away from a possible pilot error and into other factors for collegial reasons

You're not the only one to be doing that, but the problem with that impression is the thinking that looking at other factors excludes pilot error, when that's not at all the case - the other factors are what led to the pilot error, and ultimately it's going to be through dealing with those factors that we work to reduce the likelihood of future similar errors. It's not a one-or-the-other proposition.

It's very likely the crew made some mistakes here, and obviously should be held responsible for them. But fairness requires that they only be held responsible for what they actually did wrong, not labeled with blanket criticisms based on incomplete information. And since we don't yet know exactly what they did wrong, I'm very hesitant to lay any responsibility at their feet for the moment - there will be plenty of time for that once we know more about what actually happened. If that's considered looking after one of our own, so be it, though I'd venture that most people, pilots or not, would want to be treated that way if they screwed up at work.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 69):
I got a sense of where you all are coming from and if I offended anyone, I'm sorry.

The sentiment is much appreciated, thanks.

-Mir


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