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Topic: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-07-19 03:00:35 and read 15391 times.

Allegiant flight 1002 AZA-OAK was stuck on the ramp for two hours in humid monsoon 106° Arizona heat Wednesday. Passengers had no air conditioning on the plane. Allegiant says they couldn't run the engines to prove ac at the gate. Since this wasn't over three hours Allegiant technically is within the DOT FAA regs but I question why the APU or ground power wasn't enough to cool the plane. Also why they didn't move people back to the terminal when cooling the plane wasn't possible. There are no jetways so passengers would need ramp escort but two hours in that heat seems dangerous to me.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: jetfixr757
Posted 2013-07-19 05:21:13 and read 15037 times.

Could have run the apu and run the packs, unless the apu was deferred for pneumatics....
Jet

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-07-19 05:43:03 and read 14920 times.

What worries me is state laws applying here- passengers would have needed plenty of water and there's a well-known law in arizona which prevents businesses from refusing people glasses of water.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-19 05:58:24 and read 14839 times.

You don't "cool the plane on ground power". What you can do, at airports that have electrically-powered gate a/c, is run those units and pump the cooled air onto the plane. DL does this at ATL for example. Cheaper and less polluting of the local area than running the APU (especially with that nice, inexpensive coal-powered electricity that they get in ATL).

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2013-07-19 06:20:52 and read 14729 times.

Here's the link (with related video) to the story.

Airline passengers suffer through hot tarmac delay

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-19 06:35:04 and read 14633 times.

So the article makes clear that there was a/c, just not as much as there could have been with the engines spooled up or if hooked up to external cooling. Perhaps Allegiant should think about availing itself of external cooling equipment, even if it costs 5 cents.

It was the passenger's conclusion that the a/c was "broken". Which was wrong. It was 106 outside. The aircraft doesn't have an organic capability to maintain 75 degrees in those circumstances when full on the ground. Plainly it wasn't 106 in the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: Speedbored
Posted 2013-07-19 06:37:58 and read 14615 times.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Thread starter):
Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac 

Bread or Cake?

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-07-19 07:08:53 and read 14467 times.

Were they off the gate? I can't imagine them not having A/C carts at the gates there

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: PSAJet17
Posted 2013-07-19 09:50:59 and read 14006 times.

It still puzzles me why Allegiant did not have the passengers deplane while they worked on the mechanical issues since they could not provide proper air conditioning in the aircraft. As I understand it, the aircraft was still in the assigned parking stall/gate and had not moved from that position. The portable stairways (Mesa-Gateway does not have jetways) would have to be returned to the aircraft door and the passengers could have moved back into the much cooler terminal.

Some people have quoted the Passenger Bill of Rights and talked about the three hour rule. That rule is meant to be used when the aircraft has departed the gate area and is on a taxiway waiting for departure clearance, most of the time due to weather conditions that either delay local departures or enroute/destination weather that reduces the flow into the destination airport. Usually this condition affects more that one airplane and makes it difficult to get out of line and return to a gate or all gates are occupied with other aircraft. When the pilot can safely return to a/the gate and let the passengers deplane, that must be done when ever possible. In this case, since they were still at the gate/parking stall, Allegiant should have deplaned the passengers until the aircraft was repaired.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: GEG2RAP
Posted 2013-07-19 09:51:59 and read 14005 times.

No gates for G4 at AZA

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-19 10:10:41 and read 13920 times.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Thread starter):
Since this wasn't over three hours Allegiant technically is within the DOT FAA regs but I question why the APU or ground power wasn't enough to cool the plane. Also why they didn't move people back to the terminal when cooling the plane wasn't possible. There are no jetways so passengers would need ramp escort but two hours in that heat seems dangerous to me.

Which just goes to show how ridiculous the three-hour rule is - there's no provision for treatment of passengers. There are times when sitting on a taxiway for four or five hours is perfectly fine for the passengers, and there are times when sitting for one hour presents a problem. And this is one of the latter times.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: atcsundevil
Posted 2013-07-19 11:05:31 and read 13637 times.

Quoting Article:
"They apologized and gave us a free drink of our choice," said passenger Dianna Hill.

Oh, how nice of them to hand out a drink for free.   

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: 93Sierra
Posted 2013-07-19 11:40:57 and read 12956 times.

I think you guys are being a little to harsh.....sh*t happens. I have seen countless times when a 20 minute MX delay starts to snowball into something more. The capt asks MX about the problem, they reply with the solution and an estamated time to fix. Sometimes the fix doesn't fix the problem, and it's only another 15 minutes that turns into 20, 30 etc. Its a nightmare to deplane and reboard people sometimes and the delay just gets exasterbated. From the post above about water, what are you talking about? No where did it say they ran out of provo goods.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2013-07-19 12:26:05 and read 12179 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
What worries me is state laws applying here- passengers would have needed plenty of water and there's a well-known law in arizona which prevents businesses from refusing people glasses of water.

as i understand the courts have ruled that the governing of airlines is a federal power not a state's, so this law may have no effect on airlines

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-07-19 12:58:50 and read 11667 times.

There is no excuse for this! The captain made a poor choice by keeping passengers on the plane with no air conditioning. Very poor choice.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: jagflyer
Posted 2013-07-19 13:28:56 and read 11248 times.

There has to be more to the story. The first thing any ground handler in the summer does is put conditioned air on the aircraft. Why did the pilot not make the demand to have the conditioned air cart hooked up to the plane?

Pretty standard for any airport that gets warm temperatures. Any airport in Arizona most definiately has such GSE. If the gate does not have a built in system, portable ones are used.


[Edited 2013-07-19 13:31:23]

[Edited 2013-07-19 13:32:15]

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-19 13:30:36 and read 11206 times.

Quoting jagflyer (Reply 17):
The first thing any ground handler in the summer does is put conditioned air on the aircraft. Why did the pilot not make the demand to have the conditioned air cart hooked up to the plane?

There might not be a conditioned air cart.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: atcsundevil
Posted 2013-07-19 13:51:34 and read 10927 times.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
as i understand the courts have ruled that the governing of airlines is a federal power not a state's, so this law may have no effect on airlines

You are correct in that the oversight is in the hands of the federal government, but aircraft on the ground are subject to local/state laws. Serving of alcohol is one example of how airlines may be restricted by local laws.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: mach2is2slowAZ
Posted 2013-07-19 14:02:58 and read 10730 times.

Maybe nobody wanted to pay a de-planning fee and a second boarding fee.    

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: dsuairptman
Posted 2013-07-19 14:15:45 and read 10536 times.

This is the second time this summer G4 has had an overheat issue on the ground. Most of G4's ramp is contracted out andthey may not be properly trained on responding to hot cabins in hot weather.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-07-19 14:29:20 and read 10336 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
There might not be a conditioned air cart.

They most certainly do have portable a/c carts there, but anyone who works ramp here will tell you that those are not able to keep up with a full plane-load of passengers on a summer day here for an extended period of time. Even jetway-based units have trouble after a while.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-07-19 14:37:57 and read 10213 times.

I was on an allegiant flight out of COS once and it was only 85 degrees out but the sun beating at high elevation made the plane unbearable. People really freaked out and they did run the engines to get the air flow after a while when people almost revolted. It really did help when they ran the engines it was still hot but it really did help alot. I really hated it, i dont think they should let people roast in the heat like that.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: ridgid727
Posted 2013-07-19 14:56:15 and read 9933 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 16):
There is no excuse for this! The captain made a poor choice by keeping passengers on the plane with no air conditioning. Very poor choice.

People go to jail for keeping a dog in a closed up car with little or no air conditioning. 150 plus people in a closed up cabin in 106 degree weather shows they really have no interest in their customer, other than the Fares and ancillary fees they collect for everything from boarding passes to seat selection.

Quoting mach2is2slowAZ (Reply 20):
Maybe nobody wanted to pay a de-planning fee and a second boarding fee.

Obviously since Allegiant pays per passenger to the contract company for deplaning and boarding, they did not want to have a double billing for this flight. Typical of their operation, and have no care for their own customers comfort or well being.

Kind of reminds me of the way ValueJet operated prior to their demise.

[Edited 2013-07-19 15:02:38]

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2013-07-19 15:10:19 and read 9980 times.

It really is interesting how quickly a plane can heat up, even in cooler temperatures.

Many years ago (1985), I was on a charter flight from YYC to CPH. This included a planned fuel stop in KEF (Iceland) due to prevailing winds. The flight was on WG (Worldways Canada). The old DC-8-6X had no issues...until it was sitting on the ground at the Keflavik airport outside Reykjavik, Iceland for over an hour. Even though the outside temperature were very mild (for an Iceland summer) at 12-15C / 53-59F, the cabin quickly heated up. The crew was able to get airstairs brought to the plane, and we were all allowed a couple minutes outside, on the deck of the airstairs. At the time, KEF was still inside a US military base, so we could not go into the terminal without military clearance.


...I have to admit, the air in Iceland was among the cleanest I have ever breathed.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2013-07-19 15:17:06 and read 9881 times.

I can't believe the plane sat there for 2 hours without any air conditioning. I remember once being stuck in a United 757 at a SAN gate in 85 degree heat without an air conditioning cart. The plane temperature quickly rose to nearly 100 degrees inside the plane despite the doors being open and the pilot announced he intended on removing us back into the terminal if we didn't get an air conditioning cart immediately. The cart did arrive and we survived.

Being in a metal tube without air conditioning in 106 degree heat is like leaving your baby in a car in the summer -- people would have been dead.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2013-07-19 15:19:41 and read 10225 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 16):
The captain made a poor choice by keeping passengers on the plane with no air conditioning.

Allegiant should stay in the airline business. In the airline business almost everything goes. Since they only transport humans, then they will probably get away with this incident with no further damage than bad PR.

If they change into a trucking company transporting pigs to the slaughterhouse, and they do not change their procedures, then the whole company management will soon end up in jail.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: 93Sierra
Posted 2013-07-19 15:48:04 and read 9847 times.

Again you guys are only hearing the passengers responses.... How on earth would they know the cabin temp? They DID have air flowing from the gaspers and from the vents....just not up to par. I have a newer model car with a recently recharged ac system and it struggles at times in our heat. It's not like the pilots and flight attendants went to a secret cool room to hang out in, they were on board as well.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2013-07-19 15:50:58 and read 9960 times.

Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 9):
No gates for G4 at AZA

What do you mean no gates? G4 has alot of gate space in AZA. There are no jetways but there is ample amount of aircraft parking.

Quoting jagflyer (Reply 17):
There has to be more to the story. The first thing any ground handler in the summer does is put conditioned air on the aircraft. Why did the pilot not make the demand to have the conditioned air cart hooked up to the plane?

Agreed, there is more to the story that only the flight crew, mx, and ground staff would know. Some gates at AZA have jetway A/C units off to the side so they would work better then the TLD carts that they have. But if the plane is out on the taxi way then ground crews cannot hook up A/C until the aircraft arrives at the gate and shuts off power to the engines.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 22):
They most certainly do have portable a/c carts there, but anyone who works ramp here will tell you that those are not able to keep up with a full plane-load of passengers on a summer day here for an extended period of time. Even jetway-based units have trouble after a while.

         A/C units break down all the time out in PHX and AZA whether they are carts or attached to the jetway. They simply cannot keep a plane fully loaded with 150+ people cool.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2013-07-19 18:21:11 and read 8647 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 5):
It was the passenger's conclusion that the a/c was "broken". Which was wrong. It was 106 outside. The aircraft doesn't have an organic capability to maintain 75 degrees in those circumstances when full on the ground. Plainly it wasn't 106 in the aircraft.

I can't say I feel that bad for them. I sat for an hour on a KC-135 in Qatar with the sun blazing on the fuselage. KC-135s have no ground AC capability. It was at LEAST140 in the plane... had to be, if outside was 120.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-07-19 19:06:18 and read 8231 times.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 5):It was the passenger's conclusion that the a/c was "broken". Which was wrong. It was 106 outside. The aircraft doesn't have an organic capability to maintain 75 degrees in those circumstances when full on the ground. Plainly it wasn't 106 in the aircraft.I can't say I feel that bad for them. I sat for an hour on a KC-135 in Qatar with the sun blazing on the fuselage. KC-135s have no ground AC capability. It was at LEAST140 in the plane... had to be, if outside was 120.

You were getting paid to sit in that KC-135; G4's passengers were paying to sit on that sweltering MD-80. Kind of a big difference.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-07-19 19:22:54 and read 8033 times.

Some people on here are being a bit harsh. I'm sure there is more to the story than meets the ye. I've been on flights that did the same thing, except with NO air conditioning at all, and didn't get any drinks or apologies. In fact, the crew were barely visible! Fhey were standing in the doorway of the plane while the jetway was still hooked up (and it wasn't even weather or mechanical issues, it was the fact that the flight had been overbooked and nobody realized it until everybody was onboard and there was 8 people who's seats were taken. Then it took two hours to get a new flight manifest!) That was on NK, who has a similar business model, so drinks are a welcome attempt to soothe the distress of the passengers.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-19 23:33:16 and read 6331 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
There might not be a conditioned air cart.

Nobody said there wasn't one; it just might not have been enough btus in the 106 degree weather with a full aircraft. There plainly was some a/c , from the article, just not "enough".

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-19 23:34:07 and read 6252 times.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Thread starter):
Passengers had no air conditioning on the plane.

The article doesn't say that.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2013-07-19 23:38:52 and read 6220 times.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 26):

I can't believe the plane sat there for 2 hours without any air conditioning.

Because it didn't.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: Aeri28
Posted 2013-07-19 23:41:43 and read 6223 times.

I never understand in these situations why someone doesn't pretend to pass out, I would do that, At least I would get off the plane, or that action would cause the airlline to do something, provide food or drink at least,

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2013-07-20 00:28:16 and read 6032 times.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 19):
You are correct in that the oversight is in the hands of the federal government, but aircraft on the ground are subject to local/state laws. Serving of alcohol is one example of how airlines may be restricted by local laws

When B6 had their valentines day meltdown it was on the ground, that is what promoted NY to propose a a passenger bill of rights. While NY had good intentions, it wasn't their right to put into to effect. It violated the preemption clause. Any local law would have to steer clear of the ADA (aviation deregulation act) which in my opinion is hard to do because it has such an umbrella coverage, which was made clear by the 2nd Circuit court.

http://www.hklaw.com/publications/Se...ights-Unconstitutional-05-06-2008/


http://www.sabinolaw.com/AirlinePassenger.pdf

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-07-20 08:11:57 and read 5045 times.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 35):
When B6 had their valentines day meltdown it was on the ground, that is what promoted NY to propose a a passenger bill of rights. While NY had good intentions, it wasn't their right to put into to effect.

I am glad they did, i do NOT want to be stuck on the tarmac for six hours like they did! The JFK jetblue customers were actually cold stuck in snow at least you can try to layer up, its worse melting on the tarmac! You cant do anything but feel sick and awful and it happens fast. I was on an allegiant flight in COS and the passengers basically did revolt basically forcing them to turn the engines on and it really did help alot. We were only stuck maybe an hour an it was not even that hot out and it became unbearable, i hated it but the airport was closed for military something and unannounced it seemed not allegiants fault. There was almost no air flow when the engines were off, when they turned them on it really did help alot as the air flow rate probably went up by like 10 fold.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-07-20 08:35:51 and read 4982 times.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 34):
I never understand in these situations why someone doesn't pretend to pass out, I would do that, At least I would get off the plane, or that action would cause the airlline to do something, provide food or drink at least,

The airline cannot refuse anyone from deplaning. The 3 hour rule is simple. If you're approaching3 hours, you MUST deplane everyone. Even if say the mechanic knows he'll be done in 15. After you know there will be an extended delay (I think it's 30 mins or more) and provided the jetway is still on (or air stairs) you must afford anyone the opportunity to deplane if they so chose (difference between making an announcement say everyone needs to get off).

Basically, when there is a known extended delay, you must provide a mode for passengers to deplane if they choose. After approaching 3 hours, the airline must get everyone off. I'm talking an a/c sitting at a gate or stand. Out on the taxiway, well when you're approaching 3 hours you return to the gate.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: MKEdude
Posted 2013-07-20 09:03:34 and read 4891 times.

Air conditioning is a $25 dollar fee.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: atcsundevil
Posted 2013-07-20 11:02:40 and read 4734 times.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 35):
When B6 had their valentines day meltdown it was on the ground, that is what promoted NY to propose a a passenger bill of rights. While NY had good intentions, it wasn't their right to put into to effect. It violated the preemption clause. Any local law would have to steer clear of the ADA (aviation deregulation act) which in my opinion is hard to do because it has such an umbrella coverage, which was made clear by the 2nd Circuit court.

That was unconstitutional because some of the provisions did encroach on the 10th Amendment, as the regulation of air travel is a federal power. However, there are several exceptions in which local law applies while the aircraft is on the ground. The example above regarding Arizona's water law is a bit silly because I'm not aware of it having ever been enforced. Local/state laws do apply in certain circumstances, such as the regulation of alcohol while the aircraft is on the ground (e.g. Blue Laws). There are other examples, but that one is the most applicable to everyday air travel.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-07-20 11:33:15 and read 4653 times.

Quoting PSAJet17 (Reply 8):
That rule is meant to be used when the aircraft has departed the gate area and is on a taxiway waiting for departure clearance, most of the time due to weather conditions that either delay local departures or enroute/destination weather that reduces the flow into the destination airport.

The clock starts when the main cabin door is shut, and resets only when the cabin door opens again, and passengers are told of their opportunity and ability to leave the aircraft, if they so desire.

The law was implemented because of high-profile cases where aircraft were sitting on the taxiway for the better part of a day, but is also meant to combat situations where a plane might be at a gate (or hardstand), but where the airline won't give passengers the opportunity to deplane.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 37):
If you're approaching3 hours, you MUST deplane everyone.
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 37):
After approaching 3 hours, the airline must get everyone off.

False. The airline must allow those who wish to leave the airplane the opportunity to do so, and announce that opportunity to the passengers. Also, the clock can be extended as long as the airplane is in the air by the 3:30 mark, or if conditions make it unsafe to deplane the passengers.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Thread starter):
but I question why the APU or ground power wasn't enough to cool the plane.

You do live in Phoenix, right?  

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-07-20 13:39:16 and read 4496 times.

Yes I do live in Phoenix but I only noticed hot planes with Allegiant so I figured they had APU off to save money. Although some other remarks in the thread may have answered why it is different at AZA.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2013-07-20 14:09:34 and read 4454 times.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 41):
Yes I do live in Phoenix but I only noticed hot planes with Allegiant so I figured they had APU off to save money. Although some other remarks in the thread may have answered why it is different at AZA.

No, I have been on WN and US planes that get hot. I was on a WN flight to SNA and the flight attendant made an announcement that the A/C was having a hard time keeping the plane cool and it would get better when the plane's engines started. It is hard to keep things cool with our elevated temperatures. Heck, it takes a good 15 minutes for my 2009 F-150 to get cool in the summer.

Another thing to think about is this is the monsoon season in Arizona and Wednesday was a sunny day with a high dew point and elevated relative humidity. It is going to be hard for anything that is not moving to stay at a "cool" temperature.

I agree that there is probably more to the story. When I first read this I thought that it may of been the diverted planes to PHX when IWA/AZA was closed due to wind shear/weather.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-07-20 14:20:37 and read 4411 times.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 42):
I agree that there is probably more to the story.

IMO, someone got uncomfortably warm and decided to call the local TV stations. Since aviation is a favorite go-to stomping ground for the media, they took a non-story and made it a story.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 41):
Yes I do live in Phoenix but I only noticed hot planes with Allegiant so I figured they had APU off to save money.

I can assure you that every airline has "hot aircraft" problems in Phoenix, I've personally been on hot planes with US and WN. I sat on a hot aircraft in DCA one time, because the ground air was down and the pilots weren't there to turn on the APU until -30.

APU usage is right up there with dual-engine taxi... most airlines discourage the use of them until the last minute to save money.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-07-20 18:55:48 and read 4115 times.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Thread starter):
There are no jetways

It sounds like an examination of AZA is in order first. Here are my questions:

1. Are there no jetways at any gates at AZA or only at some.

2. If there are jetways anywhere how are they actually equipped regarding power and air conditioning.

3. Is there portable air conditioning available and for whom.

4. What exactly does Allegiant actually have available at AZA at their "gates" considering the climate.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: 93Sierra
Posted 2013-07-20 19:23:58 and read 4054 times.

No jetways only hard stands served via air stairs, I love how this thread started all pro pax nd now when people with actual knowledge of the situation come to defend the airline.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-07-20 19:57:52 and read 3981 times.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 12):
I think you guys are being a little to harsh.....sh*t happens. I have seen countless times when a 20 minute MX delay starts to snowball into something more. The capt asks MX about the problem, they reply with the solution and an estamated time to fix. Sometimes the fix doesn't fix the problem, and it's only another 15 minutes that turns into 20, 30 etc. Its a nightmare to deplane and reboard people sometimes and the delay just gets exasterbated. From the post above about water, what are you talking about? No where did it say they ran out of provo goods.

If the cabin is too hot to be safe (and from the description it was too hot to be safe), then the aircraft needs to be emptied. Safety is much more important than being on-time.

This was a safety issue.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 28):
I can't say I feel that bad for them. I sat for an hour on a KC-135 in Qatar with the sun blazing on the fuselage. KC-135s have no ground AC capability. It was at LEAST140 in the plane... had to be, if outside was 120.

You were in the military. These are civilians. Some of them are 80 and have heart problems. Some of them are infants.

I've been on a DC-10 with a broken APU at GIG in for four hours. It was awful. I feel like I spent a lot of time in hot DC-10's on the ground, actually.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2013-07-20 21:15:52 and read 3862 times.

Just to amke it clear, passengers were allowed off.

"Allegiant Airlines said a couple of passengers who insisted on getting off the plane at Mesa Airport instead of waiting caused further delays."

(from article posted in reply 4, not that anyone should feel obligated to read it before posting)

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: atcsundevil
Posted 2013-07-20 23:59:14 and read 3687 times.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 47):
Just to amke it clear, passengers were allowed off.

"Allegiant Airlines said a couple of passengers who insisted on getting off the plane at Mesa Airport instead of waiting caused further delays."

As with everything there are three sides to every story. And as with basically everything reported by the media these days, it's likely that its somewhat sensationalized. It's bad PR nonetheless for G4, and while it is unfortunate for the passengers involved, it's just what you get when you're flying out of Phoenix in the summer (and it doesn't help that it's a ULCC from a smaller airport).

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 47):
not that anyone should feel obligated to read it before posting

  

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: 707lvr
Posted 2013-07-21 00:15:44 and read 3662 times.

Just is simply poor work and poor management all around. When it is going to be 106°, everybody needs to be in heat mode and cover all the what-if's. I for one would be in very serious trouble on a plane in those conditions, and I wouldn't be faking it.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-07-21 13:32:58 and read 3281 times.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 44):
It sounds like an examination of AZA is in order first. Here are my questions:

1. Are there no jetways at any gates at AZA or only at some.

2. If there are jetways anywhere how are they actually equipped regarding power and air conditioning.

3. Is there portable air conditioning available and for whom.

4. What exactly does Allegiant actually have available at AZA at their "gates" considering the climate.
Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 45):
No jetways only hard stands served via air stairs

Then it sounds like AZA should acknowledge the reality of their climate and invest accordingly with what is needed to exceed the needs of fliers of all ages.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-07-21 13:58:30 and read 3219 times.

Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 9):
No gates for G4 at AZA
Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
There might not be a conditioned air cart.

If G4 doesn't require PC air availability in AZA I'm floored.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 50):
Then it sounds like AZA should acknowledge the reality of their climate and invest accordingly with what is needed to exceed the needs of fliers of all ages.

Usually it's not the airports responsibility to provide PC Air. It's the ground handler or airlines equipment. I can't imagine that anyone running ground services out there wouldn't inherently provide PC air for aircraft.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: HiFlyerAS
Posted 2013-07-22 08:40:57 and read 2803 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 14):
There is no excuse for this! The captain made a poor choice by keeping passengers on the plane with no air conditioning. Very poor choice.

Agreed....in the end the captain is responsible. There's no 'special extra cold air' piped into the cockpit...in fact it might have been even hotter up front with the windows. Shame on him/her for allowing this to happen. Someday the flight crew will be named in a civil lawsuit along with the airline...maybe then we'll something change.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-07-22 14:07:55 and read 2573 times.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 51):
Usually it's not the airports responsibility to provide PC Air.

It may not be their responsibility however common sense would dictate otherwise in that climate -- wouldn't you think.

Why does any airport provide a jetway? As a convience to their fliers I would think.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-07-22 23:08:30 and read 2350 times.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 53):
It may not be their responsibility however common sense would dictate otherwise in that climate

It's not as if AZA is denying airlines the right to use PC air. Airlines or their ground handler typically provide their own equipment. That's from the next sentence in the post you quoted. If they want air but don't have or want to provide their own equipment, then alternate arrangements can be made either with the airport authority or someone else.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: B747400ERF
Posted 2013-07-23 00:20:42 and read 2264 times.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 28):
I can't say I feel that bad for them. I sat for an hour on a KC-135 in Qatar with the sun blazing on the fuselage. KC-135s have no ground AC capability. It was at LEAST140 in the plane... had to be, if outside was 120.

How exactly is your story from the military at all relevant to the civilian world?

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: sacampb
Posted 2013-07-25 00:03:57 and read 2016 times.

I was working during this incident. What happened was the aircraft was pulled off the air cart which is a mobile air conditioning unit as we do not have jet bridges at AZA. We pushed the plane out and the captain was being a jerk to my ground crew and I. He sat on the taxiway next to the ramp we pushed him out of and had APU and engines running, the aircraft A/C unit isn't very efficient. So he complained about the back of the plane being too hot. Instead of taking off as soon as possible like most pilots he sat on the taxiway. There was nothing wrong with the plane... Just a captain trying to maintain his "air" of authority over us. This is the short version and probably as much as I can explain on this forum

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: sacampb
Posted 2013-07-25 00:16:44 and read 1998 times.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 44):
Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 44):
It sounds like an examination of AZA is in order first. Here are my questions:

1. Are there no jetways at any gates at AZA or only at some.

2. If there are jetways anywhere how are they actually equipped regarding power and air conditioning.

3. Is there portable air conditioning available and for whom.

4. What exactly does Allegiant actually have available at AZA at their "gates" considering the climate.

1. No jetways currently. 10 hardstands enplaning and deplaning is accomplished through ADA ramps and aft stairs.

2. 4 out of the 10 have "stationary" ground power and air conditioning. For the rest of the gates we use mobile diesel powered ground power and air conditioning.

3. Stationary units are provided by airlines and ground service providers.

4. I don't really understand the question.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: 93Sierra
Posted 2013-07-25 08:02:21 and read 1851 times.

Quoting sacampb (Reply 56):

I beg to differ, you may have worked the flight but there was a MX issue of sorts and thus the delay that occurred. There are many sides to every story and yours is just another one of them. I was there that day as well and from my vantage point ( also airside ) what you describe is not what I witnessed.

Topic: RE: Allegiant Passengers Bake On Mesa Tarmac
Username: sacampb
Posted 2013-07-25 08:11:02 and read 1838 times.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 58):

The pilot declared the aircraft unfit as in his words to our operations "the back of this plane isn't cooling down, we're pulling back in" to fly which every captain reserves the right to as they are responsible for the well-being of all persons aboard. We have to code delays just like every other airline does and this delay went solely to the pilot as MX said there was nothing wrong with the plane. The captain has a meeting with corporate HQ coming up as a result of this incident so I'm not the only one that thinks that.


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