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Topic: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: starbucks
Posted 2013-07-21 02:37:59 and read 33286 times.

Found this on Twitter... no words needed:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eggert Norðdahl



Quote:
Oh dear. Sukhoi #Superjet very badly damaged, apparently during landing at Reykjavik: pic.twitter.com/a4bTIy8Fs6
and

Quote:
Looks like #Sukhoi #Superjet involved in landing accident at Reykjavik is prototype aircraft 95005.

Credits to @FlightDKM  

//Edit: Changed title to Keflavik, Tweet made me think it was at Reykjavik... But looking closer I realized it was KEF

[Edited 2013-07-21 02:53:31]

[Edited 2013-07-21 02:54:59]

[Edited 2013-07-21 20:18:19 by moderators]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Reykjavik
Username: B747400ERF
Posted 2013-07-21 02:43:32 and read 33292 times.

I don't see the gear down.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Reykjavik
Username: icelander
Posted 2013-07-21 02:46:36 and read 33215 times.

According to media in Iceland, the accident occurred at around 05:30 GMT this morning at Keflavik International Airport.

Five russians were onboard. One was taken to hospital with minor injuries.

The plane has been here for a few days, performing test flights. This morning, however, the landing gear failed to deploy, and the plane landed and ran off the runway.

The runway that the plane landed on is now closed, but all other operations at the airport are as per normal.

Mark.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Reykjavik
Username: starbucks
Posted 2013-07-21 02:48:38 and read 33185 times.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 1):

I don't see the gear down.

You're right, first I thought the nose gear was hidden behind the slides, but it is supposed to be underneath the cockpit...

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Reykjavik
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2013-07-21 02:52:53 and read 33145 times.

The second incident and only 16 or so have been delivered.

Not good...

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2013-07-21 03:02:01 and read 33005 times.

Not good. Sorry to see this aircraft having such a bad time.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2013-07-21 03:32:54 and read 32592 times.

Does KEF have a spare runway so that operations aren't affected?

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: starbucks
Posted 2013-07-21 04:31:52 and read 31747 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Does KEF have a spare runway so that operations aren't affected?

RWY 20 is still available....

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2013-07-21 04:33:42 and read 31698 times.

The a/c is busted, maybe a write off, but at least no deaths or serious injuries. Sure hurts the already troubled Superjet program.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-07-21 04:43:54 and read 31363 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
The second incident and only 16 or so have been delivered.

Not good...

Am I the only one having flashbacks to all the Soviet-era jet accidents?

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-07-21 04:45:43 and read 31316 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Does KEF have a spare runway so that operations aren't affected?

This is KEF

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: asgeirs
Posted 2013-07-21 05:02:24 and read 30780 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Does KEF have a spare runway so that operations aren't affected?

The Sukhoi Superjet landed on runway 11 so 11/29 is out of order for the time being.

More details here: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130721-0

Keflavik has two runways at a 90° angle against each other, 11/29 as well as 20/02. Both are nearly the same length (about 3.000 m, 10.000 ft.).

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2013-07-21 05:43:14 and read 29794 times.

Quoting icelander (Reply 2):
The plane has been here for a few days, performing test flights. This morning, however, the landing gear failed to deploy, and the plane landed and ran off the runway.

IIRC, haven't Aeroflot complained about landing gear issues with their Superjets ? I believe in those cases, failure to retract properly.

This certainly seems to be a star-crossed program.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Pvjin
Posted 2013-07-21 06:58:06 and read 27964 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 9):
Am I the only one having flashbacks to all the Soviet-era jet accidents?

Probably as factually Russian aviation had its most unsafe period in the 90's after Soviet Union broke and much of Aeroflot was divided into small privately owned airlines.

Aeroflot's safety record in the times of Soviet Union wasn't that bad at all if we consider the extreme conditions of Siberia where many planes flew & the huge size of Aeroflot at that time. (according to some source they had around 1300 airliners and several thousands of smaller planes in the late 80's).

[Edited 2013-07-21 06:58:52]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: ely747
Posted 2013-07-21 07:21:03 and read 27305 times.

Since this was testing and not a schedulled flight, are the Russiangs going have to foot the bill for all the cost KEF incurred ?

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: TripleDelta
Posted 2013-07-21 07:46:37 and read 26637 times.

Press release by Sukhoi, via email:

"Aviation Incident with Sukhoi Superjet 100 during Test Flights on Expanding Operational Conditions

Today, July 21, 2013, at 05.25 local time at Keflavik International Airport (Reykjavik, Iceland) an aviation incident with Sukhoi Superjet 100 tail number 97005 took place.

At the final stage of test flights to evaluate Sukhoi Superjet 100 performance of automatic landing system to execute CAT III A with strong crosswind conditions as part of additional certification trials on expanding operational conditions as well as imitation of landing with one engine failure the aircraft has touched the runway with retracted landing gear.

There were five people on board: three crew members, two certification center experts. No victims as a result of the incident occurred. One of the experts damaged his leg during evacuation procedures.

At the time of the incident all aircraft systems were functioning normally. Based on SCAC preliminary estimation the aircraft will be restored and returned back to test flights program."

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: T8KE0FF
Posted 2013-07-21 07:49:23 and read 26586 times.

Geez, this is the last thing that Sukhoi want. I really wanted the Superjet to be successful - this certainly won't help things.

Although I just had a quick look and the Superjet does indeed have over two hundred orders, which is more than I thought it had. Hmm!

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: FI642
Posted 2013-07-21 07:49:35 and read 26596 times.

Probably cross wind testing. Boeing and Airbus both use KEF for testing. Some of the video is amazing.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-21 10:06:09 and read 23584 times.

So two demonstration aircraft have been involved in accidents now.

Not a very good public relations, or confidence builder in the program.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-07-21 10:33:36 and read 22999 times.

Interjet was having the shivers for several days now and with this...I´m sure they are positively panicking.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 15):
At the final stage of test flights to evaluate Sukhoi Superjet 100 performance of automatic landing system to execute CAT III

This is key for Interjet as Toluca sees those conditions during winter, and as far as I know, they are the only pilots trained in Mexico along with Volaris for CAT III operations.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2013-07-21 11:20:50 and read 21966 times.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 15):
the aircraft has touched the runway with retracted landing gear.

Interesting choice of words. And yeah, I guess this can be called touching:



But does the wording indicate that everything worked nominally, including gear, but the aircraft was accidentally brought into contact, when it should have been flying? Or that the crew forgot to lower the gear?

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-07-21 11:30:32 and read 21721 times.

Interjet, needs these Jets to make a Stop at CATEMACO, to use some of the local Chamans to exorcise the bad luck of these aircraft..

And now what ?

TRB

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: rc135x
Posted 2013-07-21 12:22:26 and read 20615 times.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 15):
At the time of the incident all aircraft systems were functioning normally.
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 20):
Or that the crew forgot to lower the gear?

Based on the press release this would be a likely cause if all systems were working perfectly. Single-engine ILS with major crosswinds, task saturation, easy to forget something.

If there was a mechanical problem with the gear not extending prior to landing then they should have discontinued the approach and resolved the problem or declared an emergency and then landed in an appropriate emergency configuration.

We should wait to see if there are any indications/ATC transmissions that there was an emergency or mechanical problem on board.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
So two demonstration aircraft have been involved in accidents now.

Not a very good public relations, or confidence builder in the program.

True, but neither reflects poorly on the airplane....

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2013-07-21 12:27:37 and read 20528 times.

Its going to cost a fortune to send a repair team here. Hotel bills alone will be astronomical.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-07-21 12:59:47 and read 20568 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
So two demonstration aircraft have been involved in accidents now.

Not a very good public relations, or confidence builder in the program.

Two MD-80s were involved in accidents 6 weeks apart during the development program in 1980.

This one, at Edwards AFB was repaired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COsT6DqkTDc
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19800502-0

This one, 6 weeks later at Yuma, Arizona, was written off.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19800619-0

[Edited 2013-07-21 13:02:21]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: r2rho
Posted 2013-07-21 13:04:14 and read 20696 times.

Looks like a flight test gone wrong... very likely not an issue with the aircraft itself, but more bad press is the last thing the Superjet needs...

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 9):
Am I the only one having flashbacks to all the Soviet-era jet accidents?

No, most people in the West still mentally live in the Cold War when it concerns anything Russian, which is one of the main obstacles the Superjet program faces. But there is no need to sell jets in the West other than for prestige purposes.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 15):
CAT III A with strong crosswind conditions as part of additional certification trials on expanding operational conditions as well as imitation of landing with one engine failure the aircraft has touched the runway with retracted landing gear.

As I suspected. KEF is a popular airport for xwind testing. CAT III and OEI add singificantly to the challenge...

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-07-21 13:11:10 and read 20954 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 26):
But there is no need to sell jets in the West other than for prestige purposes.

Unfortunately for Superjet and other Russian airframe makers, Western airlines are currently where most of the money is.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-21 13:49:45 and read 20370 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
Two MD-80s were involved in accidents 6 weeks apart during the development program in 1980.

Yes and MDC has a terrible difficult time selling the model at the time. They even had to revert to 1970s Airbus tactics of giving airlines free airframes to tryout.

But at the end what became later known as the MD-80 was a derivative of the trusty DC-9 from a well known and respected manufacturer.

The SSJ on the other hand is a brand new clean sheet design from a manufacturer hardly known outside the military world.

There already is enough doubts out there about the SSJ so any bit of bad news could be enough to further dissuade the market.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: DexSwart
Posted 2013-07-21 14:25:42 and read 19443 times.

This doesn't have anything to do with Interjet, does it? I thought that aircraft was already painted in VCE. Or am I wildly off course?


What are the procedures for something like this in a foreign country, who foot the bill, launch investigations and so on...?

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-07-21 14:30:00 and read 19395 times.

Looks like a software glitch, but why didn't they take control and go around. Or what the heck test belly landing.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-07-21 14:39:06 and read 19259 times.

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 31):
This doesn't have anything to do with Interjet, does it? I thought that aircraft was already painted in VCE. Or am I wildly off course?

No, the accident aircraft is one of the prototype test aircraft. However, coincidentally, Interjet's first aircraft was being delivered yesterday, also with a stop at KEF, then YYR (Goose Bay) and Bangor (BGR). Discussed in this thread yesterday.
First SSJ-100 For Interjet (by LOLLOMZ Jul 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...1/history/20130720/1548Z/BIKF/CYYR
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...1/history/20130720/1800Z/CYYR/KBGR

News item re delivery of Interjet's first aircraft at the recent Paris Air Show.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...hoi-interjet-idUSBRE95H1BN20130618

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Voodoo
Posted 2013-07-21 14:46:04 and read 19105 times.

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 31):
This doesn't have anything to do with Interjet, does it? I thought that aircraft was already painted in VCE. Or am I wildly off course?


The 1st Interjet took off painted from Venice on Saturday and did pass through KEF but has now arrived in Bangor, Maine and will leave for Mexico on Monday.

http://twitter.com/SuperJetIntl/status/358530661935640576/photo/1

http://twitter.com/SuperJetIntl

[Edited 2013-07-21 14:47:58]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: RubberJungle
Posted 2013-07-21 14:51:34 and read 18919 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
Looks like a software glitch, but why didn't they take control and go around

Doesn't have to be anything as technical as a software glitch. Failing to concentrate will do it every time:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...lt-with-false-flap-problem-331889/

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rew-before-gear-up-landing-340293/


Since the crew was carrying out repeated approaches for the certification, it's also worth asking whether anything was inhibited.

[Edited 2013-07-21 14:53:39]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2013-07-21 15:12:43 and read 18491 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 27):


Unfortunately for Superjet and other Russian airframe makers, Western airlines are currently where most of the money is.

True, but the SSJ has picked up some orders from the East and there are going to be continued and strong orders coming from airlines in Aisa Pac and china.

However Sukhoi will be competing against western airframers (especially Bombardier and Embraer) for these orders and these incidents coupled with Russians aviation reputation doesn't help.

Good luck to them! I personally wish the programme every success.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 29):

I am surprised no one has compared it to the 788 yet

Just goes to show that it's not easy launching a clean sheet airliner. And the SSJ crash last year was attributed to crew failures, this one is still TBC.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-07-21 16:37:52 and read 17152 times.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 36):
True, but the SSJ has picked up some orders from the East and there are going to be continued and strong orders coming from airlines in Aisa Pac and china.

The problem is that a majority of those not from the West or not from Russia are from third tier operators. Superjet's order book has an impressive list of airlines that most people have never heard of. Successful programs need orders from high profile blue chip airlines. China is not the best market to rely on- as they develop their own aviation industry Chinese airlines will be under greater pressure to order Chinese instead of Russian.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: 777fan
Posted 2013-07-21 17:19:47 and read 16528 times.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 15):
At the time of the incident all aircraft systems were functioning normally.

All systems...except for the systems that deal with landing gear deployment.

Quoting Polot (Reply 37):
Superjet's order book has an impressive list of airlines that most people have never heard of.

Impressive by size, or by stature? I'd argue their stature couldn't be that impressive if nobody has ever heard of them. Outside of the FSU satellite states (Eastern Europe and some "-stans"), sanction-magnet states (Iran, North Korea), and other pariah states who pretend to not need Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, or Canadair products (Venezuela), who exactly is going "all-in" on the SSJ? Regarding your comment on Chinese carriers - they won't need to purchase aircraft that are designed and manufactured solely in China: they'll have the A320 series rolling off of assembly lines in Tianjin.

777fan

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: gatechae
Posted 2013-07-21 17:36:27 and read 16354 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
So two demonstration aircraft have been involved in accidents now.

Not a very good public relations, or confidence builder in the program.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
Two MD-80s were involved in accidents 6 weeks apart during the development program in 1980.

This one, at Edwards AFB was repaired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COsT6DqkTDc
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19800502-0

This one, 6 weeks later at Yuma, Arizona, was written off.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...619-0

Also don't forget the A320 crash in 1988
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880626-0

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-07-21 17:44:26 and read 16143 times.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 38):
Impressive by size, or by stature? I'd argue their stature couldn't be that impressive if nobody has ever heard of them.

I meant stature. And not impressive as in they have impressive stature, but impressive in terms of the number of third tier airlines that make of their order book.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 38):
Outside of the FSU satellite states (Eastern Europe and some "-stans"), sanction-magnet states (Iran, North Korea), and other pariah states who pretend to not need Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, or Canadair products (Venezuela), who exactly is going "all-in" on the SSJ?

Nobody, which was my point. I think you were misreading my comments.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 38):
Regarding your comment on Chinese carriers - they won't need to purchase aircraft that are designed and manufactured solely in China: they'll have the A320 series rolling off of assembly lines in Tianjin.

Well yes, but that doesn't compete with the Superjet.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: B747400ERF
Posted 2013-07-21 18:14:01 and read 15686 times.

Quoting rc135x (Reply 22):
Based on the press release this would be a likely cause if all systems were working perfectly. Single-engine ILS with major crosswinds, task saturation, easy to forget something.

I think we should reserve judgment on the pilots before all the facts are out.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: clickhappy
Posted 2013-07-21 18:16:15 and read 15876 times.

We now have a picture in the database:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eggert Norðdahl

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: mpsrent
Posted 2013-07-21 18:29:24 and read 15494 times.

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 42):
Quoting clickhappy (Reply 42):
We now have a picture in the database:

Ouch! This looks costly. Not a good situation.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: rc135x
Posted 2013-07-21 19:27:26 and read 14668 times.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 41):
I think we should reserve judgment on the pilots before all the facts are out.

I concur.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2013-07-21 20:12:19 and read 14116 times.

That plane needs some winglets IMO

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-07-21 22:26:49 and read 12551 times.

What about the checklist for a OEI landing versus an normal one, do you extend the gear later? Could it be that the OEI CAT III checklist needs improvement, it might be that the gear was placed at a juncture where it can be easily lost in other tougf stuff to do, it was CAT III, side-wind (a lot) and only one engine operative, quite a bit to handle. Might be they got quite a gust just as they were coming to the gear part....

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2013-07-21 23:08:57 and read 11993 times.

Slides appear to work fine.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: TripleDelta
Posted 2013-07-21 23:22:14 and read 12024 times.

Here's another release from Sukhoi, also received via email:

Quote:
Incident with Experimental SSJ100 Has No Impact on Operations of this Aircraft Type by Airlines

Incident occurred morning July 21 at Keflavik International Airport has no impact on commercial operations of SSJ100 aircraft type.

Test flights were conducted as a part of Sukhoi Superjet 100 supplemental type certification aimed at expansion of operational conditions of the aircraft for ICAO CAT III A. Airlines at the moment do not perform such flights on this type of aircraft.

Achievement of Supplemental Type Certification for CAT III A allows aircraft to land in fully automatic mode till the moment it touches the runway even in complicated weather conditions.

Test flights to evaluate performance of automatic landing system with strong crosswind conditions are the most complicated part of the trials. Their purpose is to prevent possible in-flight emergency situations. The test flights conditions are in close proximity with extreme flight regimes in order to identify limits of safe operations of the aircraft.

The purpose of trials in Keflavik was to realize numerous automatic landings in various weather conditions including strong crosswind with various aircraft configurations.

“At the moment Sukhoi Civil Aircraft Company has already reached sufficient volume of successful aircraft landings realization. Information we have obtained so far allows to finalize certification program on ICAO CAT III A in time”, said the First President for Quality and Certification Mr Igor Vinogradov.

More than 250 landing modes have already been tested in the framework of the test program."

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-07-22 00:04:53 and read 11299 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 9):
Am I the only one having flashbacks to all the Soviet-era jet accidents?

My history books are screaming at me right now looking at this.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 48):

That will not quell the fears of passengers now, especially since two prototypes have no been W/o'ed. Horrible to see this happen  

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: planewasted
Posted 2013-07-22 00:17:22 and read 11012 times.

The good thing about this is that it proved that the aircraft is sturdy built and can handle a belly landing.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: David L
Posted 2013-07-22 02:26:06 and read 9054 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 9):
Am I the only one having flashbacks to all the Soviet-era jet accidents?

I'm not sure what you're getting at there. There were also more accidents in the west in those days and there still some accidents happening today. When BA38 came down short of the runway at LHR and when Captain Sullenberger ditched an A320 in the Hudson my thoughts didn't go back to the 1960s or 1970s .

Of course, I may have missed your point entirely.  

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: r2rho
Posted 2013-07-22 04:40:26 and read 8179 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 26):
Unfortunately for Superjet and other Russian airframe makers, Western airlines are currently where most of the money is.

   Have you checked financial reports of Western airlines over the past 10 years? In fact, those airlines are precisely where the money isn't. The West is no longer the premier aviation market it once was, Asia and the Middle East have taken over that role, with LatAm being the next big growth market. Leaving image aspects completely aside, today there would be no need to deliver aircraft to the West to be a commercially succesful program.

However, I agree with you however that Sukhoi needs some blue chip carriers to sign up, and a Western blue chip would be a big prestige & credibility boost that would attract further orders. That is where the public image element kicks in.

[Edited 2013-07-22 04:40:56]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-07-22 05:33:20 and read 7823 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 49):
Have you checked financial reports of Western airlines over the past 10 years? In fact, those airlines are precisely where the money isn't. The West is no longer the premier aviation market it once was, Asia and the Middle East have taken over that role, with LatAm being the next big growth market. Leaving image aspects completely aside, today there would be no need to deliver aircraft to the West to be a commercially succesful program.

Have you checked to see where those airlines order airplanes from? The Western image still matters, as most of those carriers target westerners. Soviet era jets may not have a bad reputation in Asia (I have no clue about the general public's opinion towards them over there) but Western jets have a greater reputation in the West, don't have a worse reputation in the East, so it is still a benefit to take Western airplanes.

Russian airframers also still have a reputation of taking forever to deliver planes and not properly supporting them, something that Sukhoi has clearly done absolutely nothing to change. Right now most major LatAm, Middle East, and Eastern carriers are not going to give Sukhoi or other Russian manufacturers their time of day. Just the third tier questionable carriers that only operate a handful of airplanes that nobody has ever heard of.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: 777fan
Posted 2013-07-22 17:42:55 and read 6005 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 37):
Quoting 777fan (Reply 38):
Regarding your comment on Chinese carriers - they won't need to purchase aircraft that are designed and manufactured solely in China: they'll have the A320 series rolling off of assembly lines in Tianjin.

Well yes, but that doesn't compete with the Superjet.

Of course not, because the demand in China overwhelmingly lies in larger aircraft. A quick review of airfleets.net reveals that China is indeed A32X and B73X heaven.

777fan

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: asgeirs
Posted 2013-07-23 08:30:50 and read 5252 times.

According to the icelandic news media, preparations to remove the aircraft from where it lies (just off the far end of rwy 11, see photo below) are underway.

It's not yet certain that existing equipment at KEF airport will be up to the task or if extra equipment will be needed.

The investigation itself has been progressing well. Statements taken from the crew are said to shed some light on what went wrong, but further examination of the aircraft itself as well as data from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders will be needed before anything can be pinpointed with certainity.

News article (in icelandic only): http://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/20...07/23/undirbua_flutning_velarinnar

Photo taken from: http://lotnictwo.net.pl/3-tematy_ogo...al_w_keflaviku_bez_podwozia-2.html


[Edited 2013-07-23 08:35:02]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: jetmarc
Posted 2013-07-23 08:59:22 and read 5141 times.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 44):
Slides appear to work fine.

Maybe that was sarcasm... but 1L seems to not have been armed and the 1R slide seems to have inflated "backwards" and is folded under itseflt, stuck below the fuselage.

edit: typo

[Edited 2013-07-23 09:00:45]

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-07-27 10:16:56 and read 4113 times.

Latest information is that the approach was OK with landing gear extended. They then willingly aborted, retracted the gear and then somehow touched the runway as they aborted. Once one touches ground your speed goes downhill and you are stuck, you also get a nose-down moment from the engines touching the ground below CG.

The approach and abort was flown on one engine at near MTOW, a rather dodgy thing to master in the strong crosswind. Perhaps they misjudged the sink rate at abort and did not apply enough pitch up to avoid scraping the runway, your are very careful with how much alfa you pull on one engine. Could also be they pulled so much they got on the backside of the drag curve, then one has no altitude to lower the nose to get out of it.

This type of tests are the most dangerous and difficult, you are flying at the limit of what the frame can do and the weather was quite challenging given the side-wind. So the accident gets another light with this info, more a dodgy flight-test gone wrong then negligence, good that no-one was hurt and that the frame can be repaired.

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: r2rho
Posted 2013-07-29 04:28:27 and read 3517 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 54):
the accident gets another light with this info, more a dodgy flight-test gone wrong then negligence, good that no-one was hurt and that the frame can be repaired.

Very good summary which confirms my earlier suspicions. OEI, MTOW, strong crosswind, Cat III, go-around.... can't get much more challenging than that! Clearly they were pushing the aircraft to its limits... and perhaps pushed too hard or overestimated themselves, or underestimated the conditions. A reminder that flight tests always have an inherent risk, even if we've come a long way in safety since the near-suicidal flight tests of the early decades of aviation.
Once thing's for sure: they certainly discovered the limits of the aircraft!  

Topic: RE: Landing Incident Sukhoi Superjet At Keflavik
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-07-29 10:08:40 and read 3152 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 55):
Once thing's for sure: they certainly discovered the limits of the aircraft!

 Wow!  

That is what now remains to be investigated, here more info:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...limb-after-missed-approach-388828/

Why the frame started to lose height after they started retracting the gear is the thing which is a bit intriguing. The instruction was to retract the gear when they had positive climb after having aborted the approach, it can be so that the drag increases during the gears transition phase. It could also be so that they retract flap from landing position to start flap in the same go, that requires quite some pitch increase synchronously with the flap going in, could be a slight miss in timing there.

As said the most difficult and dodgy flight situation, starting with one engine inop at MTOW is dodgy, you need to be absolutely on with all your inputs and very smooth, landing with one engine inop is slightly easier IMO but the go around on one engine can beat the two of them depending on how stable the approach was and what landing flap position you had (and thus how low your speed was and how much drag you need to weed out for that OEI climb).

Given the weather it could have been a pretty choppy approach in a high drag config, though and easy to get on the backside of the drag curve   .

[Edited 2013-07-29 10:10:51]


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