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Topic: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: cle757
Posted 2013-07-29 06:06:33 and read 12188 times.

United ramp/cargo and passenger service employees will picketing in IAH and DEN today protesting the lack of a contract and outsourcing of jobs by Smisek and United Airlines.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 06:39:37 and read 12078 times.

And they will only be wasting their time and pissing their co-workers off. Many MANY members of management are commuting through DEN and IAH on our way to ORD and seeing our own employees trying to cause trouble in front of our passengers who keep us all working is just a disgrace. Start acting like the NW MX guys and we will treat you that way.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: iad51fl
Posted 2013-07-29 06:59:05 and read 11977 times.

About time... now that the outsourcing is starting to affect them.
Where was the support when the outstations became Express Stations?
Where was the support when the Express Stations became sub contracted out to other handlers and even other carriers.

They had to know it was coming... and never lifted a finger to try and stop it then.

I feel the same way about the pilots who lost their flying to Regionals then complain about the 50+ seaters.

Chris

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-07-29 07:05:36 and read 11939 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 1):
And they will only be wasting their time and pissing their co-workers off. Many MANY members of management are commuting through DEN and IAH on our way to ORD and seeing our own employees trying to cause trouble in front of our passengers who keep us all working is just a disgrace. Start acting like the NW MX guys and we will treat you that way.

Hum. So it seems you are including yourself in management. Perhaps more listening to their concerns and less thinking you are higher (and mightier) than them? Labor relationships really isn't rocket science. Yet so many fail at the basics of it.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 07:16:23 and read 11868 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 3):
Hum. So it seems you are including yourself in management. Perhaps more listening to their concerns and less thinking you are higher (and mightier) than them? Labor relationships really isn't rocket science. Yet so many fail at the basics of it.

I have ZERO to do with labor, I appreciate our employees who WANT to be there and think the ones who don't should move on. This is a changing business yet getting airline employees to evolve with the changes is impossible. I don't think that it really even has much to do with the employees it's the union that brings this crap down from the top. I just wish the employees would take a look at how successful airlines can be when they leave the union alone and find a way to work with management. Any contract that prohibits the free flow of communication between management and their employees is obviously a bad thing for everyone involved.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: TonyBurr
Posted 2013-07-29 07:18:52 and read 11843 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 1):

This sounds like a typical, "who cares" attitude of the new UNITED management. This is how the present management treats their best customers.

Can we outsource Jeff???     

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2013-07-29 07:37:08 and read 11747 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 4):
I have ZERO to do with labor, I appreciate our employees who WANT to be there and think the ones who don't should move on.

That's the thing. They DO want to be there and they're worried they and their colleagues won't be there in the future.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 07:42:25 and read 11699 times.

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 5):
This sounds like a typical, "who cares" attitude of the new UNITED management. This is how the present management treats their best customers.

Can we outsource Jeff???     

United is amazing to their top tier customers and I KNOW that you will not find the kind of service that our UGS and above customers receive at any other US based airline. I want to be very clear that I do not say that because United employees are "better" than the other employees but UA offers a service that the other airlines just don't and United has enough customers on the very top end to justify this service which other airlines do not. So I think you comment is completely off and unless you are one of those customers you would have no idea what their experience is like because its completely different from what another passenger might experience.

This is also not a "who cares" attitude, I think that attitude comes from the employees who refuse to make their service competitive so that the airline can continue to employ them while remaining competitive. It's very simple to understand, if outsourcing is cheaper it's going to be what is used. The employees need to work WITH management to figure out how they can be competitive so that they bring value to the airline and can continue to be employed. Don't work against the company who employees you, work WITH them so that everyone can be successful. Take a look at how things changed when the NW unions went away and the employees started with with the management over at Delta. Its a HUGE change and everyone is happier.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 07:46:00 and read 11682 times.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 6):
That's the thing. They DO want to be there and they're worried they and their colleagues won't be there in the future.

If they could work WITH management and find a way to be competitive why on earth would they be replaced? It is honestly that simple.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: kyrone
Posted 2013-07-29 09:05:06 and read 11367 times.

Unfortunately working with management doesn't always work out. I was previously with an airline that was going through a rough time. I organized my staff to counter offer a pay cut, additional hours, and additional work. The airline ignored the offer and outsourced everyone.

That being said.... Unions aren't always the answer either. Without a healthy company, there will be no employees, and thus no need for a union. I think some unions have forgotten that as well.

There is alot of bitterness at the airport level in my experience. That unfortunately gets shown to the passengers more than it should.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 09:20:57 and read 11292 times.

Quoting kyrone (Reply 9):
That being said.... Unions aren't always the answer either. Without a healthy company, there will be no employees, and thus no need for a union. I think some unions have forgotten that as well.

Unions COULD work but not when they are not actually there to work WITH management to make things better for everyone. One of the major things I don't understand about the airline industry is how mainline pilots can work with and trust a group who represents the same people who are taking their jobs at the regional level! You have ALPA representing the mainline guys and fighting the airlines on everything they do so it makes more sense for an airline to farm the flying out to a cheap regional and just increase the frequency on a less efficient aircraft but that same union also represents the regional guys who will be getting that flying and the numbers are bigger at the regional so where is the loyalty? Wouldn't it be better for all involved if the airline could work with pilot groups to come up with a competitive contract to fly the smaller jets in-house and let the people who know what they are doing put the right aircraft in the right place and have unlimited flexibility to move things around to make the company as a whole in a better position? Does it make since to give a union who not only represents you but also the people who are threatening your job all the control over your future and pay them to do it?

Just for full disclosure I am a die hard liberal Democrat so fighting the unions who keep my party in power doesn't come easy.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: cle757
Posted 2013-07-29 10:11:04 and read 11070 times.

Remember United outsourced the ENTIRE cargo operation, and just look how much revenue has been lost so far!

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-07-29 10:15:13 and read 11051 times.

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 5):
This sounds like a typical, "who cares" attitude of the new UNITED management

This has long predated the current management, and is not unique to UA by any means. Remember IADMAD? The 737 fleet suddenly becoming someone else's CR7 fleet? Tilton et al were well on their way to outsourcing anything and everything.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: wwtraveler99
Posted 2013-07-29 10:32:03 and read 10976 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 10):
Wouldn't it be better for all involved if the airline could work with pilot groups to come up with a competitive contract to fly the smaller jets in-house and let the people who know what they are doing put the right aircraft in the right place and have unlimited flexibility to move things around to make the company as a whole in a better position?

The short answer is: Yes, they can! But as mentioned in other posts, sometimes the company doesnt want to "work" it out. They simple do not want the employees on thier payroll. I am sure in most cases the employees would prefer to work things out and stay employed. But it takes two to tango. I am not saying that the unions are always the easiest to work with. But I am sure they are more than willing to discuss ways to keep everyone employed.


WW

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-07-29 10:50:00 and read 10877 times.

Granted we have our issues to work out, but I always find it interesting that the most unionized airline in the country (WN) has had relatively minor labor issues and is still voted as one of the best places to work. I am far from a staunch union person, but I haven't seen it impact me at all as of yet. I go in, do my job, and enjoy doing it.

At the end of the day, is it really a shock that there would be push back from unions with companies that have a history of outsourcing?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-07-29 11:07:59 and read 10769 times.

This is the result of Jeff's comments about outsourcing. We have gave and gave. It's about holding the line on scope. That is the most important thing of any airline employee. We aren't asking for the moon. Since this merger, the company has only settled with the pilots only. All the rest of us do not have contracts and are still running two different airlines. We rejected the first offer because it lacked scope, higher medical (it was supposed to be based on what the pilots got, but remember most of us don't make what the pilots make), a pay cut for some, and other issues that need to be resolved. This should have been the main priority to settle the labor issues. MX walked away from the table. I dot know the total situation with the FA's; and other groups like ours still have no contracts.

They just outsourced sCO cargo which was a profitable and a award winning operation.

We just want a fair contract to protect our jobs, and let those who want to retire with some dignity.
Turning decent middle class jobs into throwaway, no benefit revolving door jobs.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-07-29 11:18:53 and read 10688 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 1):

and this kids is what's wrong with the bulk of US airlines.

Now, hopefully your BOD sees that Delta, SouthWest and US airways are absolutely kicking butt and United is Lagging and they outsource the ones that need to be shown the door. (generally people like yourself that have no idea how to deal with employees and really need to feel what its like to see your kids almost go hungry and you're driving around picking out what bridge to live under. Something you clearly think frontline employees should be just happy to do.)

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 14):

because your management isn't full of incompetent stupid assed like what is had at American and United. Southwest and Delta seem to like treating employees right.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 10):

Seeing the last TA for the ramp, Management doesn't want to work with anyone. It is very clearly all about how fast can United completely outsource below wing. IIRC in the last TA it would have even allowed UA to outsource at the hubs after X amount of years.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 10):
that same union also represents the regional guys who will be getting that flying and the numbers are bigger at the regional so where is the loyalty?

no, UALPA, CALPA, DALPA etc are the unions, and negotiators, who represent the airline pilots.


Quoting ual747den (Reply 8):

If they could work WITH management and find a way to be competitive why on earth would they be replaced? It is honestly that simple.

No idea how much money you make, but its to much. YOU need to be competitive. It will help the company for you to work for 10 an hour. Your all in right? its just soooo got damn simple.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
The employees need to work WITH management to figure out how they can be competitive so that they bring value to the airline and can continue to be employed. Don't work against the company who employees you, work WITH them so that everyone can be successful

The company can do no wrong.

Do you think the employees at Delta walk into Anderson's office and ask for lay-offs or pay cuts? Its clear by your post that you have no people skills, I honestly hope the rest of your management team isn't as bad as you are.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
Take a look at how things changed when the NW unions went away and the employees started with with the management over at Delta.

You wouldn't last 5 minutes at Delta. I honestly don't think you could get an interview.....but if you did you wouldn't have anyone working for you. Your "im better than your" attitude may work with United, but you'd be shown the door quickly at Delta.

Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked about outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-07-29 11:50:09 and read 10529 times.

Also they knew when this merger was about to go down that the labor issue would be toxic. It had to be dealt with and in a responsible matter. Not dragged on and on. And offering low ball offers when we aren't in BK.

It's not about union - non union. It's about treating your employees with dignity and respect. Something that is lacking at the BOD.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-07-29 11:50:50 and read 10526 times.

It's a sad fact that the major airlines do not feel it is necessary to hire people at liveable wages to load bags on the airplane. However, UA is the only airline I know who subcontracts its customer service at larger stations to the lowest bidder and more than half it's flying to substandard regional airline operators. From a customer perspective, it's a bad business model. While many UA employees aren't the best, the subcontracted employees tend to have no connection to the company they're "servicing" so there is no incentive to care whether the customer has a good experience or a bad one. It's not unique to UA, but it seems to be less in control there.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: tommy767
Posted 2013-07-29 12:33:27 and read 10254 times.

I think it's funny, yet very sad at the same time that the CO cronies came onto United promising better labor relations and "great customer service" but it has been the complete opposite. How much more smoke and mirrors can the public and employees take?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-29 12:37:26 and read 10196 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
United is amazing to their top tier customers and I KNOW that you will not find the kind of service that our UGS and above customers receive at any other US based airline. I want to be very clear that I do not say that because United employees are "better" than the other employees but UA offers a service that the other airlines just don't and United has enough customers on the very top end to justify this service which other airlines do not. So I think you comment is completely off and unless you are one of those customers you would have no idea what their experience is like because its completely different from what another passenger might experience.

And with that, you've proven yourself to be an out-of-touch management shill. What about the hundreds (if not thousands) of elites and other high-value customers who have been fleeing to AA and DL? Or the fact that UA is the only major in the country who have publicly shamed their elites as "overentitled"?

God forbid a UA passenger should be entitled to interacting with an actual UA employee!

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: rampbro
Posted 2013-07-29 12:59:36 and read 9917 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
No idea how much money you make, but its to much. YOU need to be competitive. It will help the company for you to work for 10 an hour. Your all in right? its just soooo got damn simple.

You just won the internet.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-07-29 13:01:12 and read 9894 times.

UAL747DEN I have read all of your responses and unfortunately your responses do not surprise me at all.

The truth is a lot of front line employees would probably be willing to vote the union out if they could TRUST that management at UA had our best interest in mind. You speak of Delta Airlines and how except for the pilots Delta is a nonunion airline but if you look at the comradery that exist between Delta management and their front line employees you will notice a distinct difference between the way Delta manages employees and the way United manages employees. Delta seems to understand that everyone who works for Delta is an adult while United seems to think that only managers are adults and everyone else is a stupid child. The way you worded your responses on this thread reminds me of how an upset parent speaks to a child when the child has done something wrong. There is absolutely no respect for anyone else's point of view in your responses you just believe that front line employees are wrong and should be grateful to have a job and should accept whatever crumbs United Airlines decides to throw their way. Where is your empathy for what front line employees and their families have had to go thru on both the sCO and sUA side. Front line employees and their families have had to make sacrifices to get United to where this point and you could careless and I understand that its not your problem what anyone other than yourself has had to sacrifice but it is not right for you do dismiss their concerns as being not valid. Instead of being dismissive of what your front line employees have to say perhaps you should listen, communication is a two way street and what United management has failed to realize is that your front line employees are your most important asset. United could be more like Delta but it is going to take real change on both sides management and front line. However from your responses you seem to believe that management is not part of the problem.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-07-29 13:26:14 and read 9607 times.

With the exception of Southwest, airlines treat employees as liabilities rather than assets. The most profitable companies do not necessarily pay the lowest wages.

"In almost all industries, research shows that the most profitable companies are those with the lowest overall operating costs, and not those that pay the least. For example, pilots at “low-cost” Southwest Airlines actually are paid more on average than their counterparts at “high-cost” United Airlines."

http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/24/cor...fs-costs-oped-cx_jot_0425jobs.html

Airline managements have created toxic work environments, an "us" vs "them" mentaility. I heard one of the reasons that the contracts were rejected was because so few employees had any trust in the management of the company.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-07-29 13:40:26 and read 9431 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 4):
This is a changing business yet getting airline employees to evolve with the changes is impossible.

Are you really suggesting that giving up one's livelihood is a noble cause to "evolve with the changes"?


Ladies and gentlemen, exhibit "A" at why airlines are at all-time lows with customer and employee satisfaction.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-07-29 14:41:59 and read 9120 times.

I would love to see management get outsourced. Seriously. Replace the current failures with people that will take less money, and do a better job. Management is overpaid, and the cuts should be made from the top. I am sure I will get some heat for this, but why not turn the tables a little here?

Don't like the idea UA management? Well too bad.... Imagine the cost savings by outsourcing management to the lowest bidder?!! I am loving this thought!!!

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 15:04:10 and read 9027 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Now, hopefully your BOD sees that Delta, SouthWest and US airways are absolutely kicking butt and United is Lagging and they outsource the ones that need to be shown the door. (generally people like yourself that have no idea how to deal with employees and really need to feel what its like to see your kids almost go hungry and you're driving around picking out what bridge to live under. Something you clearly think frontline employees should be just happy to do.)

I don't deal with labor relations at all and wouldn't, as you say I don't have the skills for that. My thinking is if you don't like working here leave and be happy. Don't bring the people who actually want to be here down with you.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
No idea how much money you make, but its to much. YOU need to be competitive. It will help the company for you to work for 10 an hour. Your all in right? its just soooo got damn simple.

I make what the market allows me to make, that is how my "worth" is calculated. I think that I'm worth about double of what I am paid but if I demanded that someone else would do my job. I have to negotiate my pay just like everyone else and I'm never happy with the end result and my "agent" is always looking for other offers. I have been offered a lot more outside of the industry and a little more from other airlines but its all about the package as a whole and at this point I am comfortable where I am at. Management has it no different than front line employees, the people above us are always looking for someone who can do the same job cheaper that just how business works. The owners of our company, our shareholders demand that and its exactly what they should get.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
You wouldn't last 5 minutes at Delta. I honestly don't think you could get an interview.....but if you did you wouldn't have anyone working for you. Your "im better than your" attitude may work with United, but you'd be shown the door quickly at Delta.

Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked abeout outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

I have been offered a position at Delta 3 times the last offer coming about 6 months ago before I signed a new deal with UA and they offered me what amounted to about 10% more compensation however that was not worth the move my family would have to make.

Delta has not been without its union problems, especially on the NW side. NW management had to do something that I loved and show all of their MX that they could just the job done just as well for a fraction of the price. Remember that? The MX planned to take the whole airline down with them and NW proved that they didn't need them.

Quoting azstar (Reply 18):

It's a sad fact that the major airlines do not feel it is necessary to hire people at liveable wages to load bags on the airplane. However, UA is the only airline I know who subcontracts its customer service at larger stations to the lowest bidder and more than half it's flying to substandard regional airline operators. From a customer perspective, it's a bad business model. While many UA employees aren't the best, the subcontracted employees tend to have no connection to the company they're "servicing" so there is no incentive to care whether the customer has a good experience or a bad one. It's not unique to UA, but it seems to be less in control there.

It's not that the airline doesn't WANT to pay everyone wages that they can live on and be happy with its that you MUST remain competitive and an employee is only worth what the market dictates. If you have someone else willing to do your job for less and they do it just as well how can you expect to be paid more? No company can do that because someone else will come along with lower costs and run that company out of business. That is the exact reason that all the airlines had to go through bankruptcy, the majors had to try to bring their costs more in line with the new smaller airlines then the next major had to bring their costs in line with the other major that just went bankrupt and so on. Im not saying that its the best way to treat people but it is the reality of business in America. When you have a free market things aren't always "fair" but you MUST compete or you will die.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
UAL747DEN I have read all of your responses and unfortunately your responses do not surprise me at all.

The truth is a lot of front line employees would probably be willing to vote the union out if they could TRUST that management at UA had our best interest in mind. You speak of Delta Airlines and how except for the pilots Delta is a nonunion airline but if you look at the comradery that exist between Delta management and their front line employees you will notice a distinct difference between the way Delta manages employees and the way United manages employees. Delta seems to understand that everyone who works for Delta is an adult while United seems to think that only managers are adults and everyone else is a stupid child. The way you worded your responses on this thread reminds me of how an upset parent speaks to a child when the child has done something wrong. There is absolutely no respect for anyone else's point of view in your responses you just believe that front line employees are wrong and should be grateful to have a job and should accept whatever crumbs United Airlines decides to throw their way. Where is your empathy for what front line employees and their families have had to go thru on both the sCO and sUA side. Front line employees and their families have had to make sacrifices to get United to where this point and you could careless and I understand that its not your problem what anyone other than yourself has had to sacrifice but it is not right for you do dismiss their concerns as being not valid. Instead of being dismissive of what your front line employees have to say perhaps you should listen, communication is a two way street and what United management has failed to realize is that your front line employees are your most important asset. United could be more like Delta but it is going to take real change on both sides management and front line. However from your responses you seem to believe that management is not part of the problem.

I don't think that United management are doing the best job possible, I have lots of problems with the way that they do things and that is why I brought up Delta in the first place. They obviously do a better job in labor relations than United is doing at the moment and we could learn a lot from them. I understand that people can't trust management at this point but when do you open up those talks? You have to start somewhere and both management and labor have to understand that and begin to work together so that they can create and environment where people can work together. In the contracts with the union there is actual wording that prohibits management and labor from talking to each other and working with each other, how can that help anyone? It's going to take a lot of work but I would love to see a situation where labor understands that they are only worth what the market allows and management understands that they need to be completely honest and up front with labor to build the trust needed to work together. Frontline employees ALWAYS have GREAT ideas about how they could do their job more efficiently to save the company money and therefore help themselves become more valuable but if you can talk to management about the idea it still does you no good because management has to work within a contract that was set up when conditions were one way at the airline and might be completely different at that point.

I am a person who thinks people should be rewarded for what they are worth, pay should not be based on how long you have managed to stay at the company without being fired or burned out it should be based on how well you do your job. Rather than pay and advances be solely based on seniority why not base it on performance and give someone something to actually work for. The market is always going to be the largest factor in pay but hard working employees should be able to make more than those who aren't working as hard. This is simple to me but I guess some people who are so used to the old way of doing business just cant understand how that works.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: thorntot
Posted 2013-07-29 15:06:17 and read 9011 times.

1.Those with "the company's best interest" in mind are wrong.

2. Those with "the management's best interest" in mind are wrong.

3. Those with "the employee's best interest" in mind are wrong.

4. Those with "the labor contract's best interest" in mind are wrong.

5. Those with "the customer's best interest" in mind will succeed in building the world's finest airline.

Until the failed thinking of 1-4 is eliminated, it is not going to work out well for United. Delta (and its employees) get it. Will United?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-07-29 15:30:51 and read 8801 times.

Well in this industry SENIORITY is the only thing. It is EVERYTHiING. From the day you are hired, seniority is the most important thing. It dictates every aspect of your job from days off; to bidding; to vacation; to getting on a aircraft. This is one of the few industries where it is the most important thing. I know it is not the merit system, but every airline does it. We live with it and that's that.

Back to the outsourcing issue. One thing about the outsourcers s they are as good as their contract. Once the lose a contract, another low ball outfit comes in and cuts the pay of the employees of the previous company. Wash; Rinse; Repeat. So you get a very high turnover with people who have no vested interest in the company. You can make more money working in an airport shop than what these outsourcing companies pay. The union tries to work with the company for cost savings and efficiencies, but when you have a low ball outfit saying they can do the job for 35 percent less, that is a problem. And it is a competitor's airline handling company to boot. So you are paying your competitors for doing your work.

We are just trying to save our jobs that are middle class decent jobs. We contribute to this economy too.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-29 15:47:07 and read 8621 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Ladies and gentlemen, exhibit "A" at why airlines are at all-time lows with customer and employee satisfaction.

I don't really want to be part of this discussion, but I needed to say that neither of those metrics is anywhere near their all-time lows. No. Where. Near.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 25):
I would love to see management get outsourced. Seriously. Replace the current failures with people that will take less money, and do a better job. Management is overpaid, and the cuts should be made from the top. I am sure I will get some heat for this, but why not turn the tables a little here?

Ouch. What'd I ever do to you? Unless you're suggesting "management" only means C-suite and execs? There are a lot of good people here, and most are here because they are extremely good at their jobs.

I do not know UAL747DEN or his situation, but I can tell you that AA is HEAVILY recruiting UA personnel in order to beef up their knowledge on merger transition, and DL has solicited at least 10 people I know with job offers in the last 2 years, including myself.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: displane
Posted 2013-07-29 15:59:59 and read 8538 times.

As a former employee who still has many friends at UAL, I fully sympathize with you. Many of my friends are within or working past retirement age and will continue to do so since we lost the pensions and the ESOP fiasco. And now to have their jobs threatened? And I don't think many non-employees realize this.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: FURUREFA
Posted 2013-07-29 16:06:14 and read 8429 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
Take a look at how things changed when the NW unions went away and the employees started with with the management over at Delta.

You wouldn't last 5 minutes at Delta. I honestly don't think you could get an interview.....but if you did you wouldn't have anyone working for you. Your "im better than your" attitude may work with United, but you'd be shown the door quickly at Delta.

Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked about outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

I am a huge Delta fan, and think it is the industry role model, but it's only fair to note that part of the reason Delta has so much in-house positions, particularly above-wing ACS, is the Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base. If UA were to have the same, I'm sure outsourcing would be less prevalent.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-07-29 16:08:49 and read 8407 times.

Quoting thorntot (Reply 27):
Until the failed thinking of 1-4 is eliminated, it is not going to work out well for United. Delta (and its employees) get it. Will United?

How did Colleen Barrett (WN) put it...

"We are in the customer service business: We just happen to fly airplanes."

Of course customers at Southwest refers to both external as well as internal (employees). Such a simple philosophy...I really don't see why it is so hard for some to strive for.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-07-29 16:57:33 and read 7946 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 29):
Ouch. What'd I ever do to you? Unless you're suggesting "management" only means C-suite and execs? There are a lot of good people here, and most are here because they are extremely good at their jobs.

Amen. Heaven forbid you shouldn't work on the "front lines" or whatever...but then again, we don't have these labor issues at my employer and thus I continue to keep calm and carry on.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 17:05:48 and read 7921 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 28):
Well in this industry SENIORITY is the only thing. It is EVERYTHiING. From the day you are hired, seniority is the most important thing. It dictates every aspect of your job from days off; to bidding; to vacation; to getting on a aircraft. This is one of the few industries where it is the most important thing. I know it is not the merit system, but every airline does it. We live with it and that's that.

Back to the outsourcing issue. One thing about the outsourcers s they are as good as their contract. Once the lose a contract, another low ball outfit comes in and cuts the pay of the employees of the previous company. Wash; Rinse; Repeat. So you get a very high turnover with people who have no vested interest in the company. You can make more money working in an airport shop than what these outsourcing companies pay. The union tries to work with the company for cost savings and efficiencies, but when you have a low ball outfit saying they can do the job for 35 percent less, that is a problem. And it is a competitor's airline handling company to boot. So you are paying your competitors for doing your work.

We are just trying to save our jobs that are middle class decent jobs. We contribute to this economy too.

You are completely right about seniority being everything and that is one of the big problems with the industry, could you imagine if just that one little thing changed and people were paid based on performance, which by the way is a HUGE part of pretty much every managers pay, how things would look. I can tell you that in my position if I don't perform I'm gone no questions asked. I go to work everyday knowing that just a few small miscalculations will cost me my job and I work under that stress to make sure I still have a job the next day. The industry is also a very small place when it comes to management and everyone knows who is doing what at the other airlines and they know when you are shown the door for not performing so you won't be getting that job somewhere else in the industry. The big up part of that is when you are doing a really good job everyone knows and they come calling. Something as little as just one new route hitting it big can generate lots of calls to my "agent". (I put that in quotes because its not really an agent necessarily just an attorney but all the headhunters in the industry know who to call when they want to steal you away)

On your other point I also agree with you. Someone is always trying to come in lower and the high turnover hurts everyone. You need employees that are as invested in the company doing well as the management and the shareholders, that is the ideal situation then you end up with people who love their job and do it well because they take pride in that job. Thats hard to find when you are paying your employees peanuts but you have to find a way to reach a happy middle ground and that is what Delta seems to be doing better than anyone else right now. It takes a lot from both sides and I will be the first to admit I don't know how you start to get both sides there with the current situation however that is what needs to happen for everyone to be successful.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 29):
I do not know UAL747DEN or his situation, but I can tell you that AA is HEAVILY recruiting UA personnel in order to beef up their knowledge on merger transition, and DL has solicited at least 10 people I know with job offers in the last 2 years, including myself.

The AA offers are kind of all over the board these days and a lot of people I know have gotten VERY nice offers but know that its not really sustainable and they will be used for a few years and dropped back into the pool so it make more since to just stay put. I haven't seen anything from AA that has made me seriously consider moving into the mess that will end up being for a few years but of course just like everyone else I'm always happy to see an offer and know I'm wanted! I was picked off from Frontier in a really crazy deal but so far it has worked out very well for me.

Quoting displane (Reply 30):

As a former employee who still has many friends at UAL, I fully sympathize with you. Many of my friends are within or working past retirement age and will continue to do so since we lost the pensions and the ESOP fiasco. And now to have their jobs threatened? And I don't think many non-employees realize this.

I have a very good friend of the family who was a 747 Captain that had just retired and got completely killed when his ex-coworkers threw him and all the other retired pilots under the bus. I know people who have been hurt in all of this but I don't know what a better option would have been. United just couldn't go on like it was anymore just like all the other major airlines and something had to give.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 32):
How did Colleen Barrett (WN) put it...

"We are in the customer service business: We just happen to fly airplanes."

Of course customers at Southwest refers to both external as well as internal (employees). Such a simple philosophy...I really don't see why it is so hard for some to strive for.

I get that, its nice to hear that but in reality we are all just an investment to a shareholder and we just happen to fly planes. The only point of United, Southwest, or any other publicly traded company is to return as much profit as possible to the shareholder and that is it nothing else.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-07-29 17:06:11 and read 7877 times.

We aren't asking for the moon..

We are just asking to keep our jobs. We made $521 million last quarter with our current staffing and inefficiencies...is management forgetting that? Why are they treating us front line employees like we are in bankruptcy and our jobs are what is putting the company under? We are not in bankruptcy..we are not marginal. Why are you treating us like we are??

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-07-29 17:18:46 and read 7735 times.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 31):
Delta has so much in-house positions, particularly above-wing ACS, is the Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base. If UA were to have the same, I'm sure outsourcing would be less prevalent.

What exactly is the Ready Reserve program for those of us who do not know?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: FURUREFA
Posted 2013-07-29 17:37:43 and read 7587 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 36):
Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 31):
Delta has so much in-house positions, particularly above-wing ACS, is the Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base. If UA were to have the same, I'm sure outsourcing would be less prevalent.

What exactly is the Ready Reserve program for those of us who do not know?

All Airport Customer Service employees are hired as Ready Reserves, meaning they work a maximum of 999 hours per year (I think that limit has been increased since I left) - usually 10-30 hours per week, are not on a pay scale, and only receive pass travel priviledges (no health/401k). As regular, benefitted positions open up, Ready Reserves are able to move into those by seniority, but many don't, instead enjoying the flexible schedule.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: questions
Posted 2013-07-29 17:41:56 and read 7516 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
the CO cronies came onto United promising better labor relations and "great customer service" but it has been the complete opposite.

That is interesting. If the management team came over from CO what happened?

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 31):
Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base.

What is the Ready Reserve program and how does it help lower costs?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: BNORD1
Posted 2013-07-29 18:00:08 and read 7324 times.

You can say what you will about unions (pro or con), and there is plenty of both, however the non-union carriers owed their salaries and working conditions, most of them, to the unionized carriers. We could tell who at CO, DL and AA would get raises every time we signed a new contract.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: bhmdiversion
Posted 2013-07-29 18:01:17 and read 7334 times.

I think its amusing that UA is outsourcing their work to other airlines who are their direct competitors.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-07-29 19:16:05 and read 6691 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 32):
How did Colleen Barrett (WN) put it...

"We are in the customer service business: We just happen to fly airplanes."

I think she meant they're in the oil-futures trading business and just happen to fly airplanes.   

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-07-29 19:21:04 and read 6652 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 35):
We are just asking to keep our jobs. We made $521 million last quarter with our current staffing and inefficiencies...is management forgetting that? Why are they treating us front line employees like we are in bankruptcy and our jobs are what is putting the company under? We are not in bankruptcy..we are not marginal. Why are you treating us like we are??

Boy, this sounds familiar.  

I believe the answer is right here...

Quoting ual747den (Reply 34):
The only point of United, Southwest, or any other publicly traded company is to return as much profit as possible to the shareholder and that is it nothing else.


Sadly, it's not about making a profit. It's about maximizing profit.

[Edited 2013-07-29 19:38:24]

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-29 19:53:29 and read 6439 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked about outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

To be fair, Delta has taken quite a whipsaw to its regional carriers, particularly with what happened to Comair and Pinnacle.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
Sadly, it's not about making a profit. It's about maximizing profit.

Which is nice in the short term, but when the company goes back into bankruptcy (which is where UA will end up if they continue on their present course, though maybe that's where they want to end up) then all that money goes away. I'd much rather be part of a company that makes a smaller profit but is actually sustainable so that you don't lose everything once a decade.

-Mir

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: citation501sp
Posted 2013-07-29 20:05:32 and read 6311 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
Sadly, it's not about making a profit. It's about maximizing profit.

Well said, and sadly this is applicable in far to many situations across many industries.


501SP

[Edited 2013-07-29 20:32:40]

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: questions
Posted 2013-07-29 20:12:57 and read 6257 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 34):
The only point of United, Southwest, or any other publicly traded company is to return as much profit as possible to the shareholder and that is it nothing else.

In the US, it is also about creating executive wealth.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: CALTECH
Posted 2013-07-29 21:14:01 and read 5919 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):
NW management had to do something that I loved and show all of their MX that they could just the job done just as well for a fraction of the price. Remember that? The MX planned to take the whole airline down with them and NW proved that they didn't need them.

And where is this NW now ?

Do not think this is a great example to use. NW is no more. And their last years were not good at all.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-07-29 21:56:26 and read 5679 times.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 21):

its all mine?
Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
Airlines

Air Lines
Quoting azstar (Reply 23):
With the exception of Southwest, airlines treat employees as liabilities rather than assets. The most profitable companies do not necessarily pay the lowest wages.

Delta.....
Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):
I don't deal with labor relations at all and wouldn't, as you say I don't have the skills for that. My thinking is if you don't like working here leave and be happy. Don't bring the people who actually want to be here down with you.

Its just so easy.
Please, stay away from labor.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):

I have been offered a position at Delta 3 times the last offer coming about 6 months ago before I signed a new deal with UA and they offered me what amounted to about 10% more compensation however that was not worth the move my family would have to make.

I didn't say you wouldn't be offered. I can promise you, if you refer to frontline employees as you do, you wouldn't last long in Atlanta.
if you let a frontline employee hear you, id expect you to be packing right then.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):

I make what the market allows me to make, that is how my "worth" is calculated. I think that I'm worth about double of what I am paid but if I demanded that someone else would do my job. I have to negotiate my pay just like everyone else and I'm never happy with the end result and my "agent" is always looking for other offers. I have been offered a lot more outside of the industry and a little more from other airlines but its all about the package as a whole and at this point I am comfortable where I am at. Management has it no different than front line employees, the people above us are always looking for someone who can do the same job cheaper that just how business works. The owners of our company, our shareholders demand that and its exactly what they should get.

you didn't answer my question. You're in and will be asking for 10 an hour, thats what you're worth. I own airlines shares and thats what i say you're worth...so I fully expect you to do so.
don't care if your family won't be able to eat, you take 10 an hour.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):

Delta has not been without its union problems, especially on the NW side. NW management had to do something that I loved and show all of their MX that they could just the job done just as well for a fraction of the price. Remember that? The MX planned to take the whole airline down with them and NW proved that they didn't need them.

you don't know what youre talking about.
painfully clear.

Having said that, your big and bad behind that computer screen, care to man up and say that to the faces of those employees?

Quoting Mir (Reply 43):

To be fair, Delta has taken quite a whipsaw to its regional carriers, particularly with what happened to Comair and Pinnacle.

feel sorry for them. not.
Welcome to the big boys, Now if only the MROs would all start to fail.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):

part of a company that nearly makes 1 billion a year BECAUSE of it MX UAL hates so much.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-07-29 22:07:27 and read 5608 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
feel sorry for them. not.

It's pretty silly for you to blast UAL747DEN for not appearing to care about labor and then say that.

-Mir

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-07-29 22:15:31 and read 5567 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):

Ignorant much?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-29 22:32:54 and read 5511 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 45):
In the US, it is also about creating executive wealth.

Executives are paid what they are worth to the board and therefore shareholders. You cant expect to have successful executives working for nothing when they can go to a different company and make more. Again you are paid what the market allows and that is what you are worth.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):
And where is this NW now ?

Do not think this is a great example to use. NW is no more. And their last years were not good at all.

Umm that's my point, with the unions it was a company sinking fast, they got rid of the unions and now its a successful operation.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
I didn't say you wouldn't be offered. I can promise you, if you refer to frontline employees as you do, you wouldn't last long in Atlanta.
if you let a frontline employee hear you, id expect you to be packing right then.

You really don't get it, I am great at my job one of the best and I know this because of the offers that I get. I wouldn't be sent packing because I would be an asset to the airline. Without people like me there is no need for people like you to work on those front lines. If everyone from the bottom up was doing an excellent job in their position the airline would be efficient and employees on all levels would be paid what they are worth. Airlines have proven that even with outsourced employees and a high turnover the job can still be done just as well so why do those employees deserve more? They dont, if they would bring more value to the company they would be worth more to the company. This is very simple stuff I dont understand why it is so hard for you to understand.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
you didn't answer my question. You're in and will be asking for 10 an hour, thats what you're worth. I own airlines shares and thats what i say you're worth...so I fully expect you to do so.
don't care if your family won't be able to eat, you take 10 an hour.

Your question is flawed because I am not worth 10 an hour I am paid a lot more and you could not find someone to do my job for that pay. If you could however find someone to do your job for that then thats what you are worth, that is what the market demands for your skills. Now you may do your job much better than the other people who hold the same position however that doesn't matter in the airline industry because you want you value to be based on seniority rather than the work you do. I would NEVER settle for an hourly wage job with my only incentive being to stay at the company a long time. I would rather work my ass off everyday and be able to move over to a different company if I don't like what is happening to my current employer because I have a skill that is valued and needed.

On a more personal note if you are so amazing at your job and have a better understanding of how labor in your position should be managed than why aren't you working in a management position where you could influence change to better the company and your coworkers?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
Having said that, your big and bad behind that computer screen, care to man up and say that to the faces of those employees?

I would be happy to ask those out of work MX how they feel now. Im sure most of them had to start over at a much lower wage than they were being offered at a company just like the one they said couldn't do what they did. I would say that by now most of those employees realize that they blindly followed their union guidance into hell. The union said that NW couldn't do exactly what they did do and they were extremely successful doing it. I would be happy to meet with anyone of these guys.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: SHAQ
Posted 2013-07-29 23:05:54 and read 5364 times.

Here is the problem with some station employees (gate agents and rampers)
All families deserve to be well-fed. All people should pursuit happiness (sometimes happiness needs money). Nobody deserves to live below a bridge, as someone here said.
But, in my opinion, you can't try to live off and have a family being a ramper o gate agent. You want skilled labor wage, doing a unskilled work.
All jobs are good if they are legal. I don't have any problem with ground agents.
But if you plan to have two kids, a good house and ride a nice car, doing unskilled labor, you're wrong my friend. Airlines, as any company needs to be competitive, and they can't if someone is willing and knows how to do the job as you do, but with lower wages.
These jobs are good if you are in college and need some extra money, but not for dads looking to feed the family.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 28):
We are just trying to save our jobs that are middle class decent jobs. We contribute to this economy too.

Your job is a decent one. Every job is, if it is legal. But I think that when people talk about middle class jobs, they refer to skilled labor and up . Ie. teachers, doctors, lawyers, pilots, engineers, etc.
I respect all opinions, so I expect others to do the same with mine.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: Grisee08
Posted 2013-07-30 00:13:52 and read 5159 times.

I am one of the people who would work regardless. I would rather have a little money in today's economy than have nothing at all, which is all that picketing these days will get you. There are hundreds of thousands of people out there who would give anything to be able to have a job, yet there are some who ARE working who take advantage of everything they DO get.

I understand that it's not fair that management gets multi-million dollar salaries topped with million dollar bonuses or what-not, but life isn't fair. In today's world, you take what you can get, and be happy with it.

Having said that, I would like you all to watch this short film, featuring Neil Flynn.
http://youtu.be/DPOSPECfOkU

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-07-30 00:20:07 and read 5156 times.

The biggest problem is so easy to see. Why hold frontline employees accountable for the piss poor performane of the bottom line? How about holding the leadership accountable, since that is where the real issue lies.

How can anyone stroke themselves, and tell people they are skilled and doing a great job in management? Seriously, every single exec and manager is to blame for losses and failure of a business. If you own a bar and can't make profits, do you blame the bartender? Or, do you blame the owner? How many failing bars get sold, and the new owners turn it into a profitable business, with the same bartender?

Outsourcing is not the answer to the airlines problems. The airline needs better management. The frontline workers that get outsourced are the victims of incompetent leadership. Blaming it on union or non union frontline employees is just pathetic.

And please... If you are going to defend your great management skills, and point blame on other managers.... Fine.... I wouldn't expect any less from a manager. Why? Because you all will throw anyone under a bus to save your job. Kinda sucks when the shoe is on the other foot.........

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: shuttle9juliet
Posted 2013-07-30 01:29:52 and read 4978 times.

This happened back in 2007 when BA outsourced check in, ramp and dispatch in the UK regions, and contracted it out to a third party handling agent.
The delays in the beginning were rife, customer service was poor. Now they are on their 3rd handler in 6 years.
A good trick BA play is that the check in staff now wear BA uniform, not just in the UK regions, but it makes them look good and no doubt fools the customers.
I always believe that as soon as you outsource, standards drop immediately, it is that old saying "pay peanuts"!!

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: xdlx
Posted 2013-07-30 04:29:10 and read 4382 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 4):

The only thing that changes in this business ... is the Management Faces allow to profit from the employees that make it work. Cut, slash, reduce headcount, is the only way they know how to cut cost.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-30 04:44:33 and read 4289 times.

There is no place for organized labour (crime) in today's free market economy and all labour unions should be made to conform to the market they are in. If there is a company who can do it for less because of no unions, then why should airlines be forced by the unions to meet their demands. I for one applaud UA for this in trying to reduce costs, which are artificially inflated by the union demands, and making it easier for the airline to compete in today's competitive airline industry. We could ultimately see reduced fares and fees or not see increases in the fares because of the competition.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-07-30 04:51:52 and read 4262 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked about outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

I don't believe Delta ever said any of that

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 52):
I understand that it's not fair that management gets multi-million dollar salaries topped with million dollar bonuses or what-not, but life isn't fair. In today's world, you take what you can get, and be happy with it.

Please tell us how many members of management got multi-million dollar salaries and million dollar bonuses and who they wer. Gross exageration

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: wwtraveler99
Posted 2013-07-30 05:00:34 and read 4207 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 29):
Ouch. What'd I ever do to you? Unless you're suggesting "management" only means C-suite and execs? There are a lot of good people here, and most are here because they are extremely good at their jobs.

I think F9anamail made his point. You here the "outsourcing" and quickly say how you are a good person and do your job well. Don't you think the same is true on the other side of the fence. Now maybe you can get just a slight feel of what the "union" worker is deal with in the situation.


WW

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-07-30 05:52:22 and read 3939 times.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 13):
The short answer is: Yes, they can! But as mentioned in other posts, sometimes the company doesnt want to "work" it out. They simple do not want the employees on thier payroll. I am sure in most cases the employees would prefer to work things out and stay employed. But it takes two to tango. I am not saying that the unions are always the easiest to work with. But I am sure they are more than willing to discuss ways to keep everyone employed.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.
Being at my 3rd company right now.....two private and now Fortune 50, all of them........ALL of them would prefer not to have any employees at all. They don't want a payroll, they don't want an HR dept, they don't want to have to pay benefits.
If they could outsource ALL of it and just write some flat rate checks, they would.

My current group is in a tussle between two outsource firms. Low cost and high cost. High cost is sitll cheaper than in-house, and they do the best work. Low cost, we usually have to redo their work when it gets back.
Those of us in the trenches know the low cost outsourced work being redone in-house is NOT saving any money. But in the financial buckets that the MBA dweebs look at.......it's all good. We're saving tens of thousands!
But nobody looks at the big picture of all the REWORK we do when we use low-cost.

Back to airlines. When I deal with UA vs AA at ORD, UA's counters are always full of these "Airserv" contractors, who look like they really don't want to be there, and half of them don't know what they're doing.
Dealing with the AA people in T3, they all have AA badges and are almost always pleaseant and prompt to deal with.
This reflects DIRECTLY on the airline.
Hmmmmm.......

[Edited 2013-07-30 06:37:32]

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-30 06:40:03 and read 3765 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 34):
You are completely right about seniority being everything and that is one of the big problems with the industry, could you imagine if just that one little thing changed and people were paid based on performance, which by the way is a HUGE part of pretty much every managers pay, how things would look.

I understand where you are coming from but with pilots it would be impossible to implement a performance based plan.

- Everyone is expected to fly airplanes to near perfection so you can't judge performance based off of that.
- You can't judge performance based off the number of flight hours flown either because that encourages pilots to push themselves to the limits increasing the risks accidents due to fatigue. Not to mention it puts added stress on family life. For example, a commuting pilot could be a much better employee then a pilot living in base but if the pilot in base flies more since he is closer to work then he would get the promotion.
- Chief Pilots and other managers aren't around to see all the things pilots do right, they only hear about the things they didn't do right or had the appearance of not doing right. They do not have the face to face contact every day needed to evaluate performance and promote based off of merit.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 50):
Executives are paid what they are worth to the board and therefore shareholders. You cant expect to have successful executives working for nothing when they can go to a different company and make more. Again you are paid what the market allows and that is what you are worth.

No they aren't paid what they are worth, they are paid what their cronies on the board of directors think they are worth. They all scratch each other's back in aviation and the rest of corporate America. If it was truly an objective system, executive pay in America wouldn't have risen to 240 times the average worker from 20 times the average worker. That much value hasn't been added to these companies.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-07-30 06:49:34 and read 3736 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 60):
No they aren't paid what they are worth, they are paid what their cronies on the board of directors think they are worth. They all scratch each other's back in aviation and the rest of corporate America. If it was truly an objective system, executive pay in America wouldn't have risen to 240 times the average worker from 20 times the average worker. That much value hasn't been added to these companies.

Yeah.....and IF they were paid what they were worth, they would not get bonuses and severance packages when their companies underperform or go belly up!
Today, for some reason, the highest executives get paid whether their companies perform well or poorly, or not at all.
 

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: cal
Posted 2013-07-30 07:19:52 and read 3666 times.

I never really post on here.. However I would like to say that I really wish United management would read or re-read the book, From Worst to First , and take the playbook from there..
Treat your employees good and your employees will automatically take care of your customers. In turn your customers will keep coming back..... Thats all we want.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-07-30 07:40:46 and read 3598 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 56):
There is no place for organized labour (crime) in today's free market economy and all labour unions should be made to conform to the market they are in. If there is a company who can do it for less because of no unions, then why should airlines be forced by the unions to meet their demands. I for one applaud UA for this in trying to reduce costs, which are artificially inflated by the union demands, and making it easier for the airline to compete in today's competitive airline industry. We could ultimately see reduced fares and fees or not see increases in the fares because of the competition.

I'm sorry you feel that way. This is a heavily unionized business. Why we are blamed for bad management decisions? The company is not in BK. Costs are not artificially inflated; fuel is the number one cost of any airline now, not labor. Flying is now cheaper than ever. It is not actually matching the costs of doing business, but airlines are showing a profit. But employees have to suffer and sacrifice for every, I'll say again....EVERY bad management decision. We take paycut after paycut and furlough. But we've always adapted. It's not like everybody is making top dollar - at most airlines it takes a decade just to top out. It's not an excessive "demand" to hold the line on scope. In the airline business, scope is the most important thing. More than money. Every workgroup has it in their contracts. Wouldn't you fight for what you have? Plus, we are not the only workgroup who doesn't has a contract yet and it has almost been three years now.

BTW. You will not see reduced fares, that's for sure. They will go up with consolidation. They eventually have to. You will have four major carriers (AA;DL;UA;WN); a medium sized small carrier (B6; maybe VX); and a couple of low fare carriers (F9; NK; Allegiant). That's it. And some of the smaller cities will lose service due to the increasing sizes of regional aircraft. 50 seat aircraft is no longer viable now.

I know that people hate labor on this board, but with all of the bad mismanagement over the years, we just catch the brunt of it all.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 55):
The only thing that changes in this business ... is the Management Faces allow to profit from the employees that make it work. Cut, slash, reduce headcount, is the only way they know how to cut cost

Yup. Airline Management 101.
Don't forget the bonuses that management gets for failing "upward".

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 51):
Your job is a decent one. Every job is, if it is legal. But I think that when people talk about middle class jobs, they refer to skilled labor and up . Ie. teachers, doctors, lawyers, pilots, engineers, etc.
I respect all opinions, so I expect others to do the same with mine.

It's a job one can live on. Even though it takes a toll on your body. Plus there are many other benefits as well. With one of the handling outfits, its not even close. You can't live on what's offered. I guess you want us to live under that bridge, huh??

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 57):
Please tell us how many members of management got multi-million dollar salaries and million dollar bonuses and who they wer. Gross exageration

Quite a few. And the merger is not even completed (in a operationally sense) yet. IMHO, a complete merger is one where every workgroup is working side by side, bidding together. A standard IT; a unified technical standards; one complete unified system. We still are not, but as one of the previous posters said we still made a profit with the inefficiencies. Imagine if we were all as one, like DL. We would be one great airline!

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: CALTECH
Posted 2013-07-30 08:18:20 and read 3537 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 50):
Umm that's my point, with the unions it was a company sinking fast, they got rid of the unions and now its a successful operation.

Could you please give some info on this NW 'successful operation' ? There are quite a few ex-NW Techs working in MCO who are waiting for this great news. They want their seniority back too.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
part of a company that nearly makes 1 billion a year BECAUSE of it MX UAL hates so much.

Wut ?     

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-30 08:52:11 and read 3463 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 28):
Back to the outsourcing issue. One thing about the outsourcers s they are as good as their contract. Once the lose a contract, another low ball outfit comes in and cuts the pay of the employees of the previous company. Wash; Rinse; Repeat. So you get a very high turnover with people who have no vested interest in the company. You can make more money working in an airport shop than what these outsourcing companies pay.

   MIA is one bright exception because many contractors are required to pay their employees a living wage, often times higher than the entry level pay offered by airlines.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 59):
Dealing with the AA people in T3, they all have AA badges and are almost always pleaseant and prompt to deal with.
This reflects DIRECTLY on the airline.

AA recently outsourced their passenger service representatives (red coats). Have you noticed any difference in the quality of service?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-07-30 08:53:47 and read 3466 times.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 37):
All Airport Customer Service employees are hired as Ready Reserves, meaning they work a maximum of 999 hours per year (I think that limit has been increased since I left) - usually 10-30 hours per week, are not on a pay scale, and only receive pass travel priviledges (no health/401k). As regular, benefitted positions open up, Ready Reserves are able to move into those by seniority, but many don't, instead enjoying the flexible schedule.

Thank you for answering my question. That is a very interesting program so basically these people are part timers with no benefits at all except pass travel privileges. And because they only are working up to 30 hours a week this allows them to take on a second job or go to school or live their life how they see fit. I can see the benefit in this program it saves Delta a lot of money while giving employees a lot of flexibility.

I have 2 questions for anyone who works for Delta and might know the answer. The first question is what is the percentage of Ready Reserve employees to Regular Benefitted employees at Delta? It doesn't have to be the entire system lets take ATL or JFK for example, does anyone know how many are Ready Reserve and how many are Regular with benefits?
Second question is without a pay scale what is the starting pay for Ready Reserve and how doe Delta go about giving Ready Reserve employees pay raises?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-30 08:58:19 and read 3465 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):
Thank you for answering my question. That is a very interesting program so basically these people are part timers with no benefits at all except pass travel privileges. And because they only are working up to 30 hours a week this allows them to take on a second job or go to school or live their life how they see fit. I can see the benefit in this program it saves Delta a lot of money while giving employees a lot of flexibility.

I would love to work for DL as a Ready Reserve, and I've spoken to plenty of disillusioned AA agents who've said they would've chosen DL if they could do it all over again. At my current place of employment as a contractor, the lack of travel benefits afforded to us is the big sticking point.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: cle757
Posted 2013-07-30 09:19:05 and read 3387 times.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11991...worked.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

This merger is a mess!

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-07-30 09:59:20 and read 3297 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 65):
Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 59):
Dealing with the AA people in T3, they all have AA badges and are almost always pleaseant and prompt to deal with.
This reflects DIRECTLY on the airline.

AA recently outsourced their passenger service representatives (red coats). Have you noticed any difference in the quality of service?

I was just through ORD for the Jul4 weekend...............no I had no idea.
Is this new?
The staff seemed fine and attentive.
Maybe they undergo much better training or ........... more stringent hiring?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-30 10:13:29 and read 3259 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 53):
The biggest problem is so easy to see. Why hold frontline employees accountable for the piss poor performane of the bottom line? How about holding the leadership accountable, since that is where the real issue lies.

Just FYI, Salaries and Wages is a line on the expense sheet. So everyone is accountable to some degree for the performance of the bottom line.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 58):
I think F9anamail made his point. You here the "outsourcing" and quickly say how you are a good person and do your job well. Don't you think the same is true on the other side of the fence. Now maybe you can get just a slight feel of what the "union" worker is deal with in the situation.

I can agree with this to a point. However, I'm also not sitting here celebrating the outsourcing, I wish we could have mainline folks doing these jobs. It's just too often not in the cards. I would rather have a smaller mainline workforce and be able to pay those people better, than have a larger workforce and be asking for pay-cuts all the time. How you get to the smaller workforce and where those cuts come from is a different topic (I'd prefer attrition, not backfilled on the UA seniority list). In a world where I ran UA, every employee would be able to live a good life on their company pay if they work hard and do what is right.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-30 10:26:27 and read 3233 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 60):
I understand where you are coming from but with pilots it would be impossible to implement a performance based plan.

I agree, there is no real way to do that with a pilot but the other groups could easily have this kind of system.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 61):
Yeah.....and IF they were paid what they were worth, they would not get bonuses and severance packages when their companies underperform or go belly up!
Today, for some reason, the highest executives get paid whether their companies perform well or poorly, or not at all.

Companies that are failing have to pay executives a lot more because there is a lot more risk and work to be done. Would you leave your successful company to go save a failing company if there wasn't some kind of incentive in place? I know it seems like a catch 22 but thats how it works and must work to recruit the talant needed to save such a company.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 63):
BTW. You will not see reduced fares, that's for sure. They will go up with consolidation. They eventually have to. You will have four major carriers (AA;DL;UA;WN); a medium sized small carrier (B6; maybe VX); and a couple of low fare carriers (F9; NK; Allegiant). That's it. And some of the smaller cities will lose service due to the increasing sizes of regional aircraft. 50 seat aircraft is no longer viable now.

We NEED higher fares, the fares that we have to work with these days are FAR too low. This is a major part of the problem, when you have to compete with new companies who have far less costs than you do because you have been around forever it makes things really hard but if you don't compete with those fares you're done.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 64):
Could you please give some info on this NW 'successful operation' ? There are quite a few ex-NW Techs working in MCO who are waiting for this great news. They want their seniority back too.

Those guys will never get anything because they decided that if they couldn't keep their inflated pay they would take the whole airline down with them, NW laughed in their faces and went out and hired people who do what they couldn't at a rate that is competitive. Delta turned that operation into a very successful one after NW put out the trash.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-30 13:29:00 and read 3024 times.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 69):
The staff seemed fine and attentive.
Maybe they undergo much better training or ........... more stringent hiring?

A little of both, I'd say. The selection of a service provider definitely makes a difference. AA got burned in MIA when police busted a ring of their contracted skycaps taking cash payments for baggage fees and pocketing them (skycaps are only allowed to take credit card payments) and violating positive passenger bag match and some other rules, so I think they're less inclined to pick the lowest bidder at any cost.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: thorntot
Posted 2013-07-30 16:03:40 and read 2836 times.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 59):
Back to airlines. When I deal with UA vs AA at ORD, UA's counters are always full of these "Airserv" contractors, who look like they really don't want to be there, and half of them don't know what they're doing.
Dealing with the AA people in T3, they all have AA badges and are almost always pleaseant and prompt to deal with.
This reflects DIRECTLY on the airline.
Hmmmmm.......

Loyal employees are beholden only to the owner of the checking account on their paycheck, and even then a level commensurate with employee's ability to pay their bills with a single job. When the visionaries left American and the only folks left in charge were accountants, a truly great airline was destroyed by outsourcing at all levels from the flight deck to the bag room. Accountants and lawyers, lacking vision but seeking short-term gains at the behest of investors, will forego tomorrow's dollars to pick-up today's pennies.

Quoting cal (Reply 62):
I never really post on here.. However I would like to say that I really wish United management would read or re-read the book, From Worst to First , and take the playbook from there..
Treat your employees good and your employees will automatically take care of your customers. In turn your customers will keep coming back.....

Spot on. In every business, you win with people. As a manager, if your employee group is but a labor cost on your balance sheet, you have no business running an enterprise with more than one employee. You certainly have no business running an enterprise with someone else's employees.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: CALTECH
Posted 2013-07-30 21:42:52 and read 2590 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 71):
Those guys will never get anything because they decided that if they couldn't keep their inflated pay they would take the whole airline down with them, NW laughed in their faces and went out and hired people who do what they couldn't at a rate that is competitive. Delta turned that operation into a very successful one after NW put out the trash.

But where is NW ? You said NW was a successful operation now, can not find them anywhere.

As far as inflated pay goes, think it might be a good idea to read up on what actually happened rather than throwing out some inaccurate statements.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-05-26-nwa-talks_x.htm

"Mathews said Northwest's proposed pay cuts would send mechanic base pay back below where it was even after the 1990s concessions, when it was $18.45 per hour."

At Continental, Techs were topping out at around $33 IIRC at this time frame, base rate was probably around $30.

"Faced with massive losses — $458 million in the last quarter alone — Eagan-based Northwest has been seeking to cut mechanics' pay by about 25% and lay off nearly half of them. "

We saw some of those NW hired after NW rid themselves of their NW mechanics, there were a lot of mechanical incidents all of a sudden with these so called, as posted, "people hired at competitive rates."

In MCO, United has sUAL rampers on the UAL flights and DGS rampers running sCAL ramp for sCAL flights. Both have their good points and bad, but I would rather see in house folks doing the work. Maybe there will not be any more company folks in the future, just out source them all, probably cheaper.

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: unitednrt
Posted 2013-07-30 22:18:26 and read 2542 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 1):

Your comments are not to be confused with real managements' opinion of our co-workers. Our front-line employees are the backbone of the company and you should know that...especially being from a hub.

The whole talk of going through SFO/DEN...you must not be important enough of "management" to be at WHQ.

From one management employee to "another"...watch what you say. Your opinion is, thankly enough, just that.

Edit: your profile says you are at WHQ...in which case, I would expect better of you. You obviously do not represent the standard that United tries to set for its management...I hope I do not have to work with you...ever. If you think our employees do not have the right to voice their opinions...please leave.

Keep supervising,

Tom

[Edited 2013-07-30 22:33:39]

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-07-31 01:13:52 and read 2468 times.

Quoting unitednrt (Reply 75):
Your comments are not to be confused with real managements' opinion of our co-workers. Our front-line employees are the backbone of the company and you should know that...especially being from a hub.

The whole talk of going through SFO/DEN...you must not be important enough of "management" to be at WHQ.

From one management employee to "another"...watch what you say. Your opinion is, thankly enough, just that.

Edit: your profile says you are at WHQ...in which case, I would expect better of you. You obviously do not represent the standard that United tries to set for its management...I hope I do not have to work with you...ever. If you think our employees do not have the right to voice their opinions...please leave.

Keep supervising,

Tom

Yes Tom I do work at WHQ and live in DEN. Because of this commute there are several employees on this board who know who I am and you wont find one of them with bad things to say about me, I treat everyone with respect. I would love for you to send me a personal message and take my information, you are more than welcome to drop by and share your ideas with me anytime, after all we work in the same building why not just have this conversation face to face, right?

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-07-31 02:21:51 and read 2403 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 35):
Average CEO compensation has increased 1000% since 1950. Companies aren't doing a 1000% better so we are way over paying for executives

Wow good point, its one reason the US is where it is today... almost bankrupt.. a race to the bottom

Topic: RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing
Username: EaglePower83
Posted 2013-07-31 05:37:02 and read 2272 times.

OK, this one's for ual747den. (and a bit OT)

If your frontline employees are the "backbone" to the enterprise, then why did the corporation take their tools and empowerment away?
There is absolutely no excuse for agents to constantly tell me "the new system won't let me anymore" or have agents sit on hold for 20min. while trying to clear permissions from HOU-Ops to let them do something in your "fantastic" PSS.

As a former UA frequent flyer, I have no trust in the organization's leadership to get me where I want to go on time and hassle free, nor do I trust them to properly handle their employee and operations business.

I hope you guys are discussing this vast chasm of customer and employee dissatisfaction up in your shiny new digs in Sears Tower. I'm embarassed to see what has become of my home-town airline.

[Edited 2013-07-31 06:20:56]


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