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Topic: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 15:38:02 and read 13935 times.

As everyone should know, back in the 1990s, DL and CO were looking for a near exact replacement for their L-1011 and DC-10 fleets, and Boeing gave them what they wanted in the form of the 764ER. Had Boeing said no, they would have ordered the A332, which could have lead to more Airbus orders down the road. Fact is, Boeing went out of their way to prevent two important customers fleeing into Airbus' hands.

With rumors of DL ordering some A330s, I was thinking, could Boeing try to give DL such an offer again in the form of a 767-400LR? Here are some ideas that can be proposed into the 764LR:
- Longer wingspan derived from the 787.
- General Electric GEnx engines from the 747-8i.
- More range than the A332 at a much lower CASM.

If Boeing succeeded in keeping DL out of Airbus' hands the first time, who says they can't do it again? Boeing is likely facing the same dilemma once again as they did in the 1990s.

[Edited 2013-07-31 15:42:11]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-07-31 15:43:38 and read 13893 times.

Why bother when Boeing already have the 787-9 coming?

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-07-31 15:44:32 and read 13876 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):

- Longer wingspan derived from the 787.
- General Electric GEnx engines from the 747-8i.
- More range than the A332 at a much lower CASM.

This sounds strangely identical to the actual spec of a 787-9.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 15:46:05 and read 13878 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
Why bother when Boeing already have the 787-9 coming?

Because it would be a much lower cost option than the 789. You can make the same argument about the A332 yet airlines are still buying them since the A332 costs much less than the 789. My idea would be a simple derivative using existing technology that is already available.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-07-31 15:46:39 and read 13841 times.

Are you suggesting a re-engined airplane with a relofted wing for just one customer? That's never going to happen. It is far cheaper for everyone involved to get them to re-evaluate that 787 order and push the deliveries back up. The acquisition price would probably be lower and delivery dates sooner since that is a lot of development work.

There is no reason to build a re-engined 767 when it takes orders away from the 787. Boeing has no incentive to have two competing models just like Airbus has no incentive to re-engine the A330 to compete against the A350.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-07-31 16:01:34 and read 13687 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Because it would be a much lower cost option than the 789.

List price for a 787-9 is about 240 Million. List price for a 767-400ER is about 200 Million. A re-engine and relofted with is going to cost 1 Billion in development and engineering costs. If you monetize that into 25 airplanes, you get the 767-400LR having the same list price as the 787-9, and likely getting worse fuel burn. How is it cheaper and why on earth would Boeing want to spend $1 Billion on an airplane that would just steal 787 orders?

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-07-31 16:02:33 and read 13671 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
You can make the same argument about the A332 yet airlines are still buying them

Debatable. A330-300 outsell A332s 5:1.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
My idea would be a simple derivative using existing technology that is already available.

That was the idea behind Boeing offering the 767-400ERX in 2000. Canceled the program in 2001. I don't think the dynamics are different.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-07-31 16:04:26 and read 13644 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Because it would be a much lower cost option than the 789.

Much HIGHER cost! You're talking about an entirely new variant with new wing and new engines (see what sorts of work the 77X program involves?) for a sales of ...what...15 frames?

The cost per frame of development and certification could sell an entire 787 right there.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-07-31 16:12:10 and read 13545 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Because it would be a much lower cost option than the 789.

Not if its for DL only...

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
My idea would be a simple derivative using existing technology that is already available.

Umm, what your proposing is far from a simple derivative.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: ADent
Posted 2013-07-31 16:18:19 and read 13485 times.

The 787s were supposed to be cheaper to build than the 767s (at least not counting engines) - in addition to being more efficient.

The 767s are cheap because there is no overhead/non-recurring engineering costs burdened on each plane - all the tooling, drawings, etc have been paid off. If you throw a bunch of new costs on the plane, 767 won't be cheaper.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: Scorpio
Posted 2013-07-31 16:23:47 and read 13436 times.

No. Not unless Boeing feels like throwing away some perfectly good money.

The situation now is in no way comparable to when the 764 was launched, for several reasons.

First, this is not a major, earth-shattering order that will determine the future of Boeing, Airbus or Delta. If they order A330s, it'll be a simple and relatively small top-up order to an already existing fleet. A final top-up order more than likely. In the 90s, we were talking about a huge order, that would determine the future of Delta's fleet for the next few decades. Back then, Boeing had every reason to go out of their way to get the order. This time around, I doubt anyone at Boeing is seriously losing much sleep over the possibility of DL ordering some extra A330s.

Second, the plane you're proposing would probably have little future. It'd be an oddball. Back then, Boeing launched the 764 not just so they could win DL and CO's business, but also because they saw it as their response to the A330-200. They expected to sell the plane to dozens of airlines. It didn't work out that way, but that was the plan.

Third, as already mentioned, Boeing doesn't need to develop a major new 767 version when they've got the 787.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-31 16:27:40 and read 13387 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
With rumors of DL ordering some A330s


For a bridging order. Boeing wouldn't be able to rework the 764 in time for DL's order, they've too much on their plate.

The 764's time came and went. We're moving on with other technologies.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-07-31 16:28:02 and read 13375 times.

Boeing developed a more capable 767-400 - the 767-400ERX - in 2000. It would have raised the MTOW by 7 tons and added 8,000 more liters of fuel to increase the range by about 1000km. And it would have used the new Trent 600 and GP7100 series engines being developed for the 747X.

It secured three commitments from Kenya Airways, who subsequently decided they'd rather have the 777-200ER, instead.  

I expect Boeing resurrected it (with current generation engines) as a freighter for FedEx's most recent RFP. FedEx then ordered a shedload of 767-300Fs.  smirk 

Boeing is not going to spend a billion or two on the 767 anymore than Airbus will on the A330 because they already spent a heck of a lot more on their successors - the 787 and A350.

As much as this forum fixates on "right-sizing", the plain fact - heck, the plane fact - is that the 787 and A350 are so much more efficient they can fly at much lower load factors and still make more money then a packed 767 or A330.

The only reason either model is selling is availability. As soon as an airline can get a 787 as quickly as a 767 or an A350 as quickly as an A330, they're going to ante up the cash for the better product.

[Edited 2013-07-31 16:30:46]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: VC10er
Posted 2013-07-31 16:33:56 and read 13320 times.

I love the 767-400. I find myself on the United ones all the time - although there are just 16 I believe.

I hope they stay aloft a long time. It's a beauty.

But if the 6 United 787s are almost the same (and I have yet to get on one) then I'll take the higher cabin pressure!

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-07-31 16:38:08 and read 13247 times.

What you're saying, in essence, could be translated as follows: 'Don't fancy our Fryliner? Worry not, for the same price we'll sell you something that'll cost 15% more to operate, holds fewer passengers and freight, has inferior payload/range performance, but on the bright side is much less likely to catch headlines in the tabloids of the world. It will, at the same time, but a serious question mark over our commitment to the Fryliner, but you're such lovely people that's no bother at all'.

Not sure that is the way Boeing wishes to portray itself to the world. Besides, everyone knows the 764 is a dog, and that polishing a turd is a fools errand.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2013-07-31 16:41:19 and read 13222 times.

No. DL is going with the A330.

Sorry.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: srbmod
Posted 2013-07-31 16:44:14 and read 13203 times.

So a niche version of a niche version? That'll happen.......

We're talking about a plane in which the last delivery was nearly 11 years ago. At this point, developing a new version of the 767 makes zero sense considering the 787 is essentially Boeing's 767 replacement.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 17:00:19 and read 13077 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
Not sure that is the way Boeing wishes to portray itself to the world. Besides, everyone knows the 764 is a dog, and that polishing a turd is a fools errand.

The 764 is not a turd; it serves DL's transatlantic needs adequately and burns less fuel and has a lower CASM than the A332 on the routes that it serves. And when UA gets rid of their 764ERs, DL will grab them in a flash and fly them until their wings fall off.

[Edited 2013-07-31 17:01:14]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: JeffSFO
Posted 2013-07-31 17:00:33 and read 13067 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Here are some ideas that can be proposed into the 764LR:
- Longer wingspan derived from the 787.
- General Electric GEnx engines from the 747-8i.
- More range than the A332 at a much lower CASM.

Would it takeoff on a conveyer belt, too?

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-07-31 17:01:03 and read 13077 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
Besides, everyone knows the 764 is a dog, and that polishing a turd is a fools errand.

I'd duck now if I were you, did you not see who the OP is???    

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2013-07-31 17:02:47 and read 13069 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
Because it would be a much lower cost option than the 789. You can make the same argument about the A332 yet airlines are still buying them since the A332 costs much less than the 789.

As already pointed out by other posters, it would not be much cheaper. The GEnx engines alone would put the price very much on level with the 789.

Also the the A332 doesn't cost much less than the 789. 10% less, and that would be leveled out in case it was re-engined with last generation GEnx or Trent engines.

And BTW, with 38 deliveries and no unfilled orders you can be pretty sure that Boeing regretted the 764ER program. They hoped that it could have competed with the A330 on a wider scale. It didn't turn out that way. It would have been better for the Boeing shareholders to let Airbus take those orders. Why make the same mistake twice?

My boss used to tell us: "It may be unavoidable sometimes to make a costly mistake, but repeating a mistake shall be avoided at all cost".

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 17:06:35 and read 13012 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 20):
And BTW, with 38 deliveries and no unfilled orders you can be pretty sure that Boeing regretted the 764ER program. They hoped that it could have competed with the A330 on a wider scale. It didn't turn out that way. It would have been better for the Boeing shareholders to let Airbus take those orders. Why make the same mistake twice?

I seriously doubt it, since had DL ordered the A330 it would have likely led to more Airbus orders down the road, resulting in more losses for Boeing than the 764ER program ever did (if it even did at all).

I don't see why so many users here hate the 764ER for no reason at all.

[Edited 2013-07-31 17:09:02]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-07-31 17:08:58 and read 12974 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
With rumors of DL ordering some A330s, I was thinking, could Boeing try to give DL such an offer again in the form of a 767-400LR? Here are some ideas that can be proposed into the 764LR:
- Longer wingspan derived from the 787.
- General Electric GEnx engines from the 747-8i.
- More range than the A332 at a much lower CASM.

Just curious: Would these have in-seat IFE or not?

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-31 17:16:48 and read 12909 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
I don't see why so many users here hate the 764ER for no reason at all.

No one hates the 764ER. It's time has just passed. Now, you can either accept that or not, that's your choice. But to unfairly color others with untruthful labels isn't kind.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2013-07-31 17:19:07 and read 12889 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
I don't see why so many users here hate the 764ER for no reason at all.

Where did you get that from? I prefer the 764 over a A330 due to its better seating configuration, and the fact that it has the Signature Interior.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
Just curious: Would these have in-seat IFE or not?

Probably not. Just streaming video.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 17:32:03 and read 13256 times.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 24):
Probably not. Just streaming video.

Nope, it would have AVOD at every seat, as do DL's other international aircraft.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 17:34:07 and read 13381 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
No one hates the 764ER. It's time has just passed. Now, you can either accept that or not, that's your choice. But to unfairly color others with untruthful labels isn't kind.

Well, someone recklessly called the 764ER a turd, and that is clearly a sign of hatred. DL is happy with their 764ERs and has no plan of getting rid of them whether you like it or not.

[Edited 2013-07-31 17:38:07]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-07-31 17:39:47 and read 13456 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
I don't see why so many users here hate the 764ER for no reason at all.

UGH, so how come when people don't agree with your ridiculous pipedreams they "hate" the 764? I love the 764, one of my favorite aircraft, but this just ain't happening. It's debatable that these new 764s would be cheaper than the 787s after the R&D and design for sub a small subfleet and they wouldn't be better than the 787. So you'd pay more or about as much for less of a plane

DL will order Airbus again in the future. The game has changed, Boeing no longer has DL in its pocket. Don't forget what DL is, they are really DL/NW and have a ton of ex-NW Airbuses and a bunch of executives that worked for NW prior to the merger.

The only new 764s we'll see in DL colors are ones from UA/CO assuming they aren't flown to death and DL still wants them. Just because they got second hand MD90s and 717s doesn't mean they'll get second hand everything

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-31 17:40:29 and read 13374 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 26):
someone

One person is "so many"? If you're going to cast dispersions, at least be accurate about it.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: srbmod
Posted 2013-07-31 17:41:29 and read 13400 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
I seriously doubt it, since had DL ordered the A330 it would have likely led to more Airbus orders down the road, resulting in more losses for Boeing than the 764ER program ever did (if it even did at all).

At that time, DL would not have ordered the A330 considering the 764ER was to primarily be a domestic workhorse and the "gentleman's agreement" DL had with Boeing. Delta had not planned on making it an international a/c and let's not forget that they had to dedicate two seats in the last row of First Class as crew rest seats on the ATL-HNL runs (For a time, DL was having to fly ATL-LAX-HNL instead of the nonstop service because of the crew rest issue.).

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-07-31 17:43:05 and read 13406 times.

The 764ER is a great airplane and is successful for the 2 airlines that operate the type.
The 764ER by all accounts in hindsight was a turd of a program for Boeing based on most financial indicators.

The 764LR is a no-go.

Must be time for the weekly 764ER is amazing thread.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 17:43:54 and read 13387 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
DL will order Airbus again in the future. The game has changed, Boeing no longer has DL in its pocket. Don't forget what DL is, they are really DL/NW and have a ton of ex-NW Airbuses and a bunch of executives that worked for NW prior to the merger.

Of course, everyone though UA was a safe Boeing customer, and instead they upgraded the A350-900 order to the A350-1000 as well as increasing the size of the order to 35 aircraft. After losing AA and post-merger UA, Boeing will need to keep DL tightly in its hands, otherwise there will be no more legacy carriers loyal to them (post-merger AA will likely be loyal to Airbus due to being run by US Airways management).

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: micstatic
Posted 2013-07-31 17:45:06 and read 13312 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 22):
I don't see why so many users here hate the 764ER for no reason at all.

I think most people around here like the plane. I know I do. But the orders speak for themselves. It was perhaps even the right plane at the wrong time.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 17:45:43 and read 13357 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
At that time, DL would not have ordered the A330 considering the 764ER was to primarily be a domestic workhorse and the "gentleman's agreement" DL had with Boeing. Delta had not planned on making it an international a/c and let's not forget that they had to dedicate two seats in the last row of First Class as crew rest seats on the ATL-HNL runs (For a time, DL was having to fly ATL-LAX-HNL instead of the nonstop service because of the crew rest issue.).

Actually, they would have since they wanted a NEAR EXACT L-1011 replacement, which neither the 763ER nor the 772 were considered appropriate for. Boeing wasn't pointing a gun towards Ron Allen's head; it was DL pressuring Boeing, not the other way around.

[Edited 2013-07-31 17:46:13]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-07-31 17:51:40 and read 13277 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
UGH, so how come when people don't agree with your ridiculous pipedreams they "hate" the 764?

I think this is one of those extreme cases of fanboyism...     

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 31):
After losing AA and post-merger UA, Boeing will need to keep DL tightly in its hands, otherwise there will be no more legacy carriers loyal to them

Im sorry, they lost AA and UA? thats news to me....

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 31):
post-merger AA will likely be loyal to Airbus due to being run by US Airways management

Yea right... So you really believe that they are gonna drop hundreds of Boeing orders only because they are run by US Airways management?

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-07-31 17:53:41 and read 13216 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 31):
Boeing will need to keep DL tightly in its hands, otherwise there will be no more legacy carriers loyal to them (post-merger AA will likely be loyal to Airbus due to being run by US Airways management).

You are talking in absolutes. A carrier ordering Airbus doesn't mean they'll never order Boeing, and vice versa. Boeing had a good thing going but now they need to make the best planes they can to convince DL, AA, and UA that they are better and not just assume that DL, CO, and AA would order their planes no matter what. And don't forget WN, not a legacy carrier but they have a couple 737s here and there (understatement of the year)

A new 764 wouldn't even accomplish the same thing the original 764 did. According to your history (which is debatable) DL and CO would have ordered the 330 had the 764 not been developed. (Source??? Also, how do you know they weren't just saying that to leverage Boeing? You keep declaring things as fact without proof.) But what would this new 764 do? It won't keep DL in the Gentleman's Agreement because it doesn't exist anymore. It would just make DL happy, assuming they'd want dated technology that is not nearly as cost effective as the 787

Love the 764 while it flies, it'll be around for a good while longer. But like legendary airliners like the 727, DC-anything, L1011, etc their time will come. And quit being so paranoid, no one has irrational hatred for the 764, it might not be their favorite but no one has some strange vendetta against it. Arguments can be made that the 764 was a failure, they are entitled to their opinion just like you are and they shouldn't be jailed for life for it or anything silly

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: Vctony
Posted 2013-07-31 17:55:32 and read 13189 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 34):

Yea right... So you really believe that they are gonna drop hundreds of Boeing orders only because they are run by US Airways management?

Didn't AA get a really good deal on those aircraft? It doesn't make business sense to take a worse deal on such an expensive piece of machinery, even if you are somewhat partial to the other manufacturer. I fully expect the new AA management to order the aircraft that they get the best deal on, regardless of manufacturer.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: srbmod
Posted 2013-07-31 17:56:17 and read 13170 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 33):
Actually, they would have since they wanted a NEAR EXACT L-1011 replacement, which neither the 763ER nor the 772 were considered appropriate for. Boeing wasn't pointing a gun towards Ron Allen's head; it was DL pressuring Boeing, not the other way around.

For many years (including the time in which they ordered the 767-400ER) Delta (as well as American and Continental) had a "gentleman's agreement" with Boeing and would only order Boeing planes and were getting a nice discount on planes as result. The chances of Delta ordering an A330 in the late 90s was in the words of Dean Vernon Wormer:

ZERO POINT ZERO

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-07-31 17:56:54 and read 13144 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 31):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
DL will order Airbus again in the future. The game has changed, Boeing no longer has DL in its pocket. Don't forget what DL is, they are really DL/NW and have a ton of ex-NW Airbuses and a bunch of executives that worked for NW prior to the merger.

Of course, everyone though UA was a safe Boeing customer, and instead they upgraded the A350-900 order to the A350-1000 as well as increasing the size of the order to 35 aircraft. After losing AA and post-merger UA, Boeing will need to keep DL tightly in its hands, otherwise there will be no more legacy carriers loyal to them (post-merger AA will likely be loyal to Airbus due to being run by US Airways management).

All this talk of loyalty...what's wrong with an airline ordering the plane that it believes can meet its needs the best? Now, Boeing, Airbus, or anybody can tailor-make a plane to a specific customer just to keep them happy. That's not always the wisest path, however. (We like the cute little 747SP, but this product for PanAm and Iran Air didn't pan out as well as Boeing hoped) Worry not; there's plenty of fish in the sea. Boeing will be fine if DL decides to buy an Airbus or two.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 17:56:54 and read 13174 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
Arguments can be made that the 764 was a failure, they are entitled to their opinion just like you are and they shouldn't be jailed for life for it or anything silly

Of course, those arguments are flawed and biased since the 764ER accomplished its primary mission of keeping DL and CO from ordering A330s.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-07-31 17:59:48 and read 13124 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
Of course, those arguments are flawed and biased since the 764ER accomplished its primary mission of keeping DL and CO from ordering A330s.

Prove it. Not saying you are wrong, but you never provide proof, so you have nothing to stand on

If it is some exec saying they'd "go to Airbus if they don't get a 764" then prove they weren't just twisting Boeing's arm and they really would have ordered the 330

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 18:02:55 and read 13081 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
Prove it. Not saying you are wrong, but you never provide proof, so you have nothing to stand on

If it is some exec saying they'd "go to Airbus if they don't get a 764" then prove they weren't just twisting Boeing's arm and they really would have ordered the 330

And you should prove the opposite. And no, the "gentleman's agreement" is a very weak argument that proves nothing.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: micstatic
Posted 2013-07-31 18:04:05 and read 13045 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
Of course, those arguments are flawed and biased since the 764ER accomplished its primary mission of keeping DL and CO from ordering A330s

You can't prove that. You need a mathematical way to prove that it was worth more for Boeing to develop the 764, as opposed to losing a few orders in that size class to Airbus but saving development costs.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: srbmod
Posted 2013-07-31 18:04:42 and read 13067 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
Of course, those arguments are flawed and biased since the 764ER accomplished its primary mission of keeping DL and CO from ordering A330s.

What kept DL and CO from ordering the A330 back then was the aforementioned "gentleman's agreements" both carriers had at the time with Boeing. If Boeing wouldn't have been able to get them to bite on the 767-400ER even after tailoring the a/c to them, they probably would have offered them the 777-200A at a nice price.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-07-31 18:04:51 and read 13059 times.

Quoting Vctony (Reply 36):
Didn't AA get a really good deal on those aircraft? It doesn't make business sense to take a worse deal on such an expensive piece of machinery, even if you are somewhat partial to the other manufacturer. I fully expect the new AA management to order the aircraft that they get the best deal on, regardless of manufacturer.

They did, and not only that, they also wanted the aircraft in a certain time frame that no 1 manufacturer could meet. But I fully agree with what you said.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 38):
Boeing will be fine if DL decides to buy an Airbus or two.

  

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 18:05:43 and read 13074 times.

Quoting micstatic (Reply 42):

You can't prove that. You need a mathematical way to prove that it was worth more for Boeing to develop the 764, as opposed to losing a few orders in that size class to Airbus but saving development costs.

However, one Airbus order could have a domino effect of more Airbus orders down the road, which would have led to losses well exceeding the development costs of the 764ER.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 43):
What kept DL and CO from ordering the A330 back then was the aforementioned "gentleman's agreements" both carriers had at the time with Boeing. If Boeing wouldn't have been able to get them to bite on the 767-400ER even after tailoring the a/c to them, they probably would have offered them the 777-200A at a nice price.

A "gentleman's agreement" is not a legally binding agreement; it has no legal authority that forces DL to buy from Boeing.

[Edited 2013-07-31 18:08:58]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: micstatic
Posted 2013-07-31 18:12:06 and read 12942 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 45):
However, one Airbus order could have a domino effect of more Airbus orders down the road, which would have led to losses well exceeding the development costs of the 764ER.

Again, you haven't exactly put ANY numbers behind these assertions. So at this point, it is your opinion. If it didn't lead to a domino effect of them ordering 764's, I'm not sure why you think it would have worked the other way. The legacy carriers in the US will order a mix of Boeing/Airbus going forward.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-07-31 18:12:29 and read 12974 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 41):
And you should prove the opposite. And no, the "gentleman's agreement" is a very weak argument that proves nothing.

You're the one that keeps proclaiming that DL and CO would have ordered the 330 otherwise. What, are we supposed to take your word for it?

Using that logic, I'll just throw it out there that had the 764 NOT been designed, they would have started the 757-400 that was wildly successful and sold 5000 frames and Boeing would have put Airbus out of business. I don't need to prove that, YOU need to DISPROVE it  

People don't argue like that because people can say the most ridiculous things and just because it can't be disproven makes it fact. No 1337Delta764, prove that DL and CO would've gone Airbus. Otherwise, you have nothing

[Edited 2013-07-31 18:13:25]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-31 18:12:36 and read 12952 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 30):
Must be time for the weekly 764ER is amazing thread.

Looks like. The same arguments rehashed over and over under the guise of a different thread title. This plus what widebody Delta will order have almost reached the frenzy of "when will NW replace its DC-9s" threads were a couple of years ago.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-07-31 18:19:25 and read 12898 times.

The same argument was used in this thread:

Defamation Against The 767-400ER (by 1337Delta764 Jul 7 2011 in Site Related)

Again, where is the proof? To me, a plane selling only a few dozen frames doesn't sound very successful. Maybe break even or small profit, but if there is more to it than that, show us the evidence? A.net has a lot of stories that get passed around and every once in a while, we need to verify that what we pass off as history actually happened.

I still don't see the point of 764v2.0. Keeping DL in Boeing's hands? DL isn't in Boeing's hand at all so the whole entire thread is based off an erroneous assumption

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: srbmod
Posted 2013-07-31 18:21:36 and read 12871 times.



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 49):
The same argument was used in this thread:

Defamation Against The 767-400ER (by 1337Delta764 Jul 7 2011 in Site Related)

Again, where is the proof? To me, a plane selling only a few dozen frames doesn't sound very successful. Maybe break even or small profit, but if there is more to it than that, show us the evidence? A.net has a lot of stories that get passed around and every once in a while, we need to verify that what we pass off as history actually happened.

I still don't see the point of 764v2.0. Keeping DL in Boeing's hands? DL isn't in Boeing's hand at all so the whole entire thread is based off an erroneous assumption

And much like in this thread, the OP is espousing the same stuff......

The entire idea is whimsical fantasy, much like those threads that pop up every so often about Boeing restarting the 757 line......

[Edited 2013-07-31 18:24:20]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2013-07-31 18:37:29 and read 12725 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
I don't see why so many users here hate the 764ER for no reason at all.

I haven't seen any 764ER haters here.

It just happened so that the vast majority of airline beancounters preferred the competing product, which was all new when the 764ER was being designed as the last version of an already 20 years old design.

There is no reason to hate the 764ER any more than the 707, 727, or 757. The 767 family is old, and the only reason its production as pax plane hasn't been put completely to rest years ago is that eight years ago it was planned that 400-500 787s would be flying today.

Offering a 764LR with first delivery 2016-2017 to compete with the 789 would be as sensible as offering a 727-200NG to compete with the 737-8 MAX.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-07-31 18:42:47 and read 12577 times.

I love the 764. One of my favorites. Flew it just last week, and it rekindled all sorts of warm feelings inside.

That said, its time has come and gone. The purpose that the 764 currently serves, spec-wise, is (more or less) the same purpose that Boeing is engineering the 787-9 to serve. It has nothing to do with the aircraft, Boeing, Delta, Airbus, United, Continental, Richard Anderson, Biscoff, or any other various entity that you may try and drag into this conversation.

I love the 757, too. My all-time favorite aircraft. I'll be sad when they're gone, but they've been replaced by newer technology. It doesn't mean that the 757 is an inferior aircraft, it just means that it's outdated.

It is pointless to constantly start threads about supposed conspiracy theories revolving around the 764 and its production. Let it go.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-07-31 18:55:35 and read 12492 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17):
it serves DL's transatlantic needs adequately and burns less fuel and has a lower CASM than the A332 on the routes that it serves.

Prove it. The CASM numbers that LAXIntl recently posted show that for DL, the 764 costs just 1/10th of 1 cent less to operate than the 332. The numbers he posted showed CASM for the 764 at 7.5 and for the 332 at 7.6.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 49):

The same argument was used in this thread:

Defamation Against The 767-400ER (by 1337Delta764 Jul 7 2011 in Site Related)

That is simultaneously one of the funniest and saddest threads ever. One wonders if there isn't some underlying mental health issue here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 49):
To me, a plane selling only a few dozen frames doesn't sound very successful.

Precisely.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 50):
And much like in this thread, the OP is espousing the same stuff......

Yup. It's the same thing over and over again.

[Edited 2013-07-31 19:18:10]

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-07-31 19:01:20 and read 12368 times.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 38):
All this talk of loyalty...what's wrong with an airline ordering the plane that it believes can meet its needs the best?

Absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact, any airline with a procurement or acquisition team worth $0.02 would agree with you 100%

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-07-31 19:15:13 and read 12270 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 54):
Absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact, any airline with a procurement or acquisition team worth $0.02 would agree with you 100%

   We can debate the merits of the exclusivity agreements, but one has to look them in the context in which they were signed. They were all signed in the 90s, a time when Boeing had a very complete lineup of aircraft families, while Airbus was still building its offering. It may have made sense back then, but as Airbus has built its portfolio of offerings, it makes less and less sense for any large airline to completely exclude a manufacturers offerings.

Topic: RE: Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-07-31 19:27:13 and read 12324 times.

The 767 (any 767) is by far my favorite widebody due to the spacious 2-3-2 seating and a very low probability of a middle seat . However, the 767 was designed when fuel was a small fraction of current prices and in today's cost and competitive environment where the only thing 99% of Y class passengers care about is finding the lowest fare, a twin-aisle aircraft with only one more seat across than a narrow-body isn't an economic use of the real estate.

It was nice while it lasted and the 767 will still be carrying passengers for many more years, but today's economics don't justify a major investment in improving what remains basically a 35-year old design.


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