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Topic: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-07-31 11:32:49 and read 24563 times.

It has been much discussed on a.net that DL would shortly make a wide-body order so they can grow the international markets. What type or mix of types will it be?

I could see a small order (even used) of 77E or 77R's along with a 333 increase. New 77W's are so expensive and DL has repeatedly said it is trying to pay down long-term debt so I find it difficult to believe that they would spend that much for a new aircraft order even though it would make nice fit for those routes that need additional capacity.

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-07-31 11:39:56 and read 24561 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):
It has been much discussed on a.net that DL would shortly make a wide-body order so they can grow the international markets. What type or mix of types will it be?

I could see a small order (even used) of 77E or 77R's along with a 333 increase. New 77W's are so expensive and DL has repeatedly said it is trying to pay down long-term debt so I find it difficult to believe that they would spend that much for a new aircraft order even though it would make nice fit for those routes that need additional capacity.


I believe the order will be for 1 777LR and 10-12 A330's along with 30 or so A321's

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2013-07-31 11:41:28 and read 24536 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 1):
10-12 A330's

What is the reasoning for going with A330's over 767s? Are they cheaper to operate?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: max999
Posted 2013-07-31 11:56:09 and read 24430 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 2):
What is the reasoning for going with A330's over 767s? Are they cheaper to operate?

Based on what I've read on a.net...generally, the costs for running 330s and 767s are similar. But the A330 wins because it can carry more passengers, carry more cargo, and fly further (at least the 332). So the 330s top the 767s on the revenue side of the equation.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-07-31 12:24:49 and read 24194 times.

777-200LRs and A330-300s make sense to me. That would give them excellent capacity and capability across all A, B and C market missions (less than 7000km to more than 15,000km).

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-07-31 12:29:40 and read 24133 times.

The 767 is over 30 years old--I don't see much of a market for them as new passenger aircraft--freighters, perhaps, but there are a lot of used 76's out there waiting to be converted. They will continue to be built as tanker replacements for the USAF KC-135 fleet.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 12:36:45 and read 24023 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 1):
I believe the order will be for 1 777LR and 10-12 A330's along with 30 or so A321's

The A321 rumors were started due to lines for them painted at the ramps at ATL, and they have already been removed. The painting was outsourced to a contractor, and were painted in error (or possibly as a prank). Fact is, DL has no need for the A321 since they have already ordered 100 739ERs.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if DL is the launch customer for the 777X.

[Edited 2013-07-31 12:42:05]

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2013-07-31 12:37:39 and read 24012 times.

My crystal ball says 777/A330/A321.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-07-31 12:42:11 and read 23912 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
I actually wouldn't be surprised if DL is the launch customer for the 777X.

But DL said not wanting to buy new generation aircraft. So that leaves the current 777 and A330 as available options.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: a380787
Posted 2013-07-31 12:44:18 and read 23872 times.

how about finally retiring those NW 747-400s ??

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-07-31 12:45:33 and read 23875 times.

The A321 is basically a B757--it would be redundant. It also does not have sufficient international range.

I see some gently used 77E or 77L's (or maybe a couple of new ones that were cancelled orders from other carriers that could be obtained at a good price) as well as some A330's.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 12:46:26 and read 23844 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 8):
But DL said not wanting to buy new generation aircraft. So that leaves the current 777 and A330 as available options.

However, Boeing is probably looking for a U.S. customer for the 777X. UA is now likely out of the question since they ordered the A350-1000, and the combined AA/US will likely favor Airbus aircraft due to US Airways management being in charge of the combined company, therefore DL is the most likely U.S. customer that Boeing probably envisions for a 777X order.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2013-07-31 12:55:12 and read 23737 times.

Interesting discussion. I feel though to really understand what aircraft DL will be looking at you must look at how they will be used.

I think DL would like to upguage some 767 routes to 333s in Europe and South America. I also think that DLs big growth will come from Asia by over flying NRT. They have started this already in SEA and I think it will continue in other markets. There are a fair number of opportunities I think to Asia from LAX, DTW, and JFK that DL will want something with some legs to operate so we are looking at something with at least the performance of a 77E.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):
I could see a small order (even used) of 77E or 77R's along with a 333 increase. New 77W's are so expensive and DL has repeatedly said it is trying to pay down long-term debt so I find it difficult to believe that they would spend that much for a new aircraft order even though it would make nice fit for those routes that need additional capacity.

I think the A330 is a sure thing. Almost gurranteed.

I wouldn't however rule out the 77W. If Delta is really going to buy new, then the 77L doesn't cost that much less than the W and the 77W carries far more. I believe it has been said that the 77L and 77W have very similar operating costs. Now Delta needs the 77L for a few routes, but most of the new routes that Delta is looking at or even most of their current routes don't need the 77L and would sufice with a 77W on performance.

On another note, I think people kind of over look with DL is that their operations in LAX and SEA and even to an extent JFK, do not have a tone of space to grow in the area of frequency. Now I am not saying the airport couldn't handle more flights, I am saying that DL's terminals in those airports are nearing capacity. For example, it has been easier for DL to upguage SEA-NRT than it is for them to go double daily.

Now that assumes DL is buying new. I however kind of think DL will look at used 77Es. This is more inline with their plans and once again, the 77E has more than enough performance to handle most of their new routes and replacing capacity on current ones.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-07-31 13:08:10 and read 23569 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):

777-200LRs and A330-300s make sense to me. That would give them excellent capacity and capability across all A, B and C market missions (less than 7000km to more than 15,000km).

  

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 7):
My crystal ball says 777/A330/A321.

Agreed!

Quoting a380787 (Reply 9):
how about finally retiring those NW 747-400s ??

Not for a while. Don't forget that they just invested quite a bit upgrading interiors on those 744s.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-07-31 13:08:09 and read 23569 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 12):
the 77E has more than enough performance to handle most of their new routes and replacing capacity on current ones.

The 77L has better economics beyond 2knm.

I see them doing a mix order of 77Ls and A330s and taking a very hard at EKs retiring 77Ws come 2017-2020.

I do not see them in the market for the 77X anytime soon as it goes completely against everything they have said and done in the last 5 years and have indicated they will be doing in the future. Other than that, maybe  

tortugamon

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-07-31 13:10:05 and read 23544 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
However, Boeing is probably looking for a U.S. customer for the 777X.

To be honest, I think Boeing is more focusing on the Gulf carriers for the 777X launch.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
therefore DL is the most likely U.S. customer that Boeing probably envisions for a 777X order.

Perhaps, but the question is what DL wants and not what Boeing wants.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-07-31 13:11:38 and read 23546 times.

I do wonder if the rumored 330 order comes to fruition, will DL stick with Pratt or will they possibly go RR? It's definitely not out of the question, after all US did that when they ordered the 332s.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 14):
The 77L has better economics beyond 2knm.

And the 333 also has better economics (but obviously less range), so no real sense purchasing 77Es for Europe/South America when the 333 can do the job.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-07-31 13:13:56 and read 23504 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 16):
I do wonder if the rumored 330 order comes to fruition, will DL stick with Pratt or will they possibly go RR? It's definitely not out of the question, after all US did that when they ordered the 332s.

Should DL order more A330s, it would probably be either Pratt or GE, for parts commonality with the existing A330 and 767 fleets.

[Edited 2013-07-31 13:15:39]

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-07-31 13:29:24 and read 23295 times.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 9):
how about finally retiring those NW 747-400s ??

Heaven forbid. They just invested in major upgrades.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-07-31 13:29:40 and read 23294 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17):
Should DL order more A330s, it would probably be either Pratt or GE, for parts commonality with the existing A330 and 767 fleets.

Not sure how much commonality there is between a CF6-80E1 and C2, probably as much as between a Trent 800 and a 700!. Besides most airlines these days are paying by the hour for the engines.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-31 13:31:30 and read 23283 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):
What type or mix of types will it be?

There are some hints given in the Bloomberg article posted in this recent thread:

Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order (by AeroWesty Mar 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-31 15:19:32 and read 22055 times.

Quoting max999 (Reply 3):

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 2):
What is the reasoning for going with A330's over 767s? Are they cheaper to operate?

Based on what I've read on a.net...generally, the costs for running 330s and 767s are similar. But the A330 wins because it can carry more passengers, carry more cargo, and fly further (at least the 332). So the 330s top the 767s on the revenue side of the equation.

DL may order more 787s and take a hard look at the A350, then decide on the 777 both the W and the X variety. I doubt that the A330 is in the cards for DL unless they can find some second hand ones.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-07-31 15:25:35 and read 21929 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
therefore DL is the most likely U.S. customer that Boeing probably envisions for a 777X order.

Depends on how soon DL needs the lift. If they need it before 2020, then no go. If they can wait, then the this is Boeing's order to lose.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 14):
The 77L has better economics beyond 2knm.

The difference either way is pretty miniscule.

A big question is whether DL is willing to consider adding a new type (A350) or even variant (77W, for example) to their fleet. If they are, they have 787s on order. They could simply try to push the delivery date up. If they aren't, then they are going to be buying brand-new A330s and I wonder if that's a good investment so late in that airframe's lifecycle.

They might also consider a smaller purchase from another carrier (or lessor), but if they are going to use the A330, HGW A330s with the range they'd need for transpac ops might be in short supply on the second-hand market.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-07-31 15:27:07 and read 21889 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 21):
DL may order more 787s

They pushed their existing order back to after 2020, why would the order more if they are evidently not in a hurry to get the ones they have already ordered?

Quoting brilondon (Reply 21):
I doubt that the A330 is in the cards for DL unless they can find some second hand ones.

Were any of their 30+ A330s purchased second hand? Not sure why that would be a requirement.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-31 15:31:21 and read 21813 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 21):
DL may order more 787s and take a hard look at the A350, then decide on the 777 both the W and the X variety.

Remember, this is a bridging order. As the article from Bloomberg states:

Quote:
The order under study is for 10 to 20 Airbus A330s or Boeing 777s, said the people, who declined to be identified because the negotiations are private. Deliveries would start within a few years, one person said. Delta already has both plane types in its fleet.

Purchasing the jets would bridge Delta’s wide-body needs until the end of the decade, when Airbus’s more efficient A350 and Boeing’s 787-10 Dreamliner will have been in service for several years and would have any kinks worked out, one person said. Delta Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson has said he prefers buying established models with proven reliability, which are cheaper over the long term even if they consume more fuel.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: mia305
Posted 2013-07-31 16:21:23 and read 22239 times.

They will order the A380s      
or the 747-8i

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: FlyingGoat
Posted 2013-07-31 16:42:45 and read 21797 times.

If it's new aircraft they're after, I'd say 787-9/10.

If it's current aircraft, then I'd say 77L and A330. Maybe even some used 77Ws.

If my dreams came true, I'd say they pick up some dirt-cheap A346 to replace the 744s, but that will never happen. It does kinda fit their model though...

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-07-31 16:55:01 and read 22283 times.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 9):
how about finally retiring those NW 747-400s ??
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 18):
Heaven forbid. They just invested in major upgrades.

Exactly. Delta has repeatedly said they intend to keep the 744's in service through 2020.

Quoting mia305 (Reply 25):
They will order the A380s

Not in my lifetime. The airplane is too big, no locally available spares and too unique to the environment that DL flies. They could probably make it work on some NRT routes but that is about it. DL is all about flexibility in fleet scheduling--moving aircraft around as the seasons and demand requires. While the A380 is a great aircraft it just does not fit the Delta model. Unless, of course, Airbus decided to cut a deal that was too good to refuse as they did with the Eastern A300 order way back when. They might do it just to get a toehold in the US market and DL has the financial chops to make it work--plus they would send the loss to Airbus if it failed. Even then, the A300 was only marginally successful in the US market.

Watch this space.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-07-31 17:33:19 and read 21578 times.

The order is for current model widebodies, likely with delivery in the 2015-2018 time frame. This will be a top-up order for 10-20 aircraft

The A330 and 777 are the aircraft being reviewed for this order.

I would expect either a split A330/777 order or an all-A330 order. I highly doubt this will be an all-777 order.

While DL could use some more 777s, 10-20 seems like overkill for much of their network. The A330 would given more flexibility, wheras the 777 would be overkill for anything but TPAC flying in DL's network.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: B757forever
Posted 2013-07-31 17:44:21 and read 21389 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 12):
I think the A330 is a sure thing. Almost guaranteed.

Agreed. This is what I am hearing as well. The only caveat is a Boeing offer of an incredible deal on some 777s to prevent an Airbus purchase. I do not see DL acquiring used wide bodies, the integration costs are too high for a limited number of aircraft.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-07-31 18:03:14 and read 21107 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 12):
Now that assumes DL is buying new. I however kind of think DL will look at used 77Es. This is more inline with their plans and once again, the 77E has more than enough performance to handle most of their new routes and replacing capacity on current ones

Up to 14-hours the 77E can match the 77L payload at about 40t. and this will get them from the West Coast to the Chinese mainland and over flying NRT

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-07-31 18:13:29 and read 20915 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 29):
The only caveat is a Boeing offer of an incredible deal on some 777s to prevent an Airbus purchase.

Maybe they will do, but they will price their super cash cow, and then later others will try to get more cheap planes... when you have a very successful product, you dont give it away because you are lowering profits on the long run to get a single order... also Airbus can and ail sweeten their offer to get a nice fleet on Delta!.

TRB

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: sonomaflyer
Posted 2013-07-31 18:16:48 and read 20871 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 30):
Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 12):
Now that assumes DL is buying new. I however kind of think DL will look at used 77Es. This is more inline with their plans and once again, the 77E has more than enough performance to handle most of their new routes and replacing capacity on current ones

Up to 14-hours the 77E can match the 77L payload at about 40t. and this will get them from the West Coast to the Chinese mainland and over flying NRT

DL won't by 77Es. On the routes you are talking about, it costs a good deal more to operate. Boeing will be motivated to keep their existing line busy until the 77X goes into production. They will be motivated to not lose another domestic wb sale to Airbus. If they chose the 777, it will be the 77L. However, the HGW 330 is very capeable and Airbus will give them a great deal so I too think they will wind up going Airbus.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: NW
Posted 2013-07-31 18:40:15 and read 20457 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):

It has been much discussed on a.net that DL would shortly make a wide-body order so they can grow the international markets. What type or mix of types will it be?

I could see a small order (even used) of 77E or 77R's along with a 333 increase. New 77W's are so expensive and DL has repeatedly said it is trying to pay down long-term debt so I find it difficult to believe that they would spend that much for a new aircraft order even though it would make nice fit for those routes that need additional capacity.

Thoughts?

333ER and 321

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-07-31 18:48:43 and read 20261 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 30):
Up to 14-hours the 77E can match the 77L payload at about 40t. and this will get them from the West Coast to the Chinese mainland and over flying NRT

It may have a similar payload but I understand that the fuel burn is better on the 77L than the 77E on those type of routes.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: MIflyer12
Posted 2013-07-31 18:51:40 and read 20268 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 28):
The order is for current model widebodies, likely with delivery in the 2015-2018 time frame. This will be a top-up order for 10-20 aircraft

For first deliveries after the pilots' 747/777 fences come down, don't you think? 1/1/15 IIRC.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-07-31 19:11:42 and read 19955 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 21):
I doubt that the A330 is in the cards for DL unless they can find some second hand ones.

As I said earlier in another thread, I do think that the whole idea of DL looking for second-hand aircraft has become quite overblown on this forum. Yes, DL has acquired certain second-hand aircraft to build their fleet, but bear in mind that both the MD-90 and 717 are no longer in production, and have not been for a very long time. They had no choice but to build their fleet with used examples. That they found them (at least in the case of the MD-90) at dirt cheap prices is a bonus. However, given that Airbus has consistently improved upon the A330, and aircraft still in production, I don't see why DL would want to buy used when they can get brand new 330s that will be even more capable than the ones they already have.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-07-31 20:21:28 and read 19027 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):

Sadly it sounds like 330s.
Delta limiting themselves again.

Damn NW Way of thinking. 777 is such a better plane.
Meh is what it is though. Better than more outsourcing.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: NeutronStar73
Posted 2013-07-31 20:28:50 and read 18817 times.

I'm thinking 777s are in the mix. Would love a few 767s but I don't think Delta is that smart.  

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: pwdalmech
Posted 2013-07-31 20:35:59 and read 18736 times.

Delta will make a rather large order for the 787 at some point. The 767 has served Delta well and the 787 is the most logical replacement. Boeing probably has a handshake deal with Delta for early delivery slots. It’s just a matter of time before it happens.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-07-31 20:47:53 and read 18537 times.

Quoting pwdalmech (Reply 39):
Boeing probably has a handshake deal with Delta for early delivery slots.

Then why did they push their orders back until 2020?

tortugamon

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-07-31 20:54:41 and read 18485 times.

Quoting pwdalmech (Reply 39):
Boeing probably has a handshake deal with Delta for early delivery slots.

Considering how DL's CEO has been complaining about how expensive the 787 is, I think it's the opposite.

By deferring the 787 so deep, DL have now lost the preferential pricing they had as the US launch customer and will be paying much closer to "market rate" for their 787s - which when you take in the price escalations, will probably be tens of millions of dollars more per frame than if they had not deferred. And they almost certainly don't have any preferential delivery positions (unless they're willing to pay an additional premium for such slots, which they do not appear to be willing to do).

[Edited 2013-07-31 21:28:30]

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-07-31 21:13:47 and read 18161 times.

How many 777L's does Delta have ?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: audidudi
Posted 2013-07-31 21:18:09 and read 18147 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 42):

They have ten.
N701DN
N702DN
N703DN
N704DK
N705DN
N706DN
N707DN
N708DN
N709DN
N710DN

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2013-07-31 22:17:55 and read 17506 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):

I think that it could go to both A and B.

Though I don't think an all A330 would be that bad. They can still do a lot from the west coast to Asia with 330s.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: FSXJunkie
Posted 2013-07-31 22:23:08 and read 17495 times.

Just trowing it out their, why not 747-8?

Since the intercontinental isn't really selling that well I 'm sure Boeing would cut a huge deal to any purchasing US airline, Delta already operates 744's so transition costs would be lower than if they went with the A380.

Given Delta's strategy A330/777 makes the most sense,

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-07-31 22:28:24 and read 17421 times.

Quoting FSXJunkie (Reply 45):
Just trowing it out their, why not 747-8?

Because again, this is a bridging order, to hold them over until they make a refleeting decision later in the decade. 747-8s don't fit that criteria.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-07-31 22:32:41 and read 17452 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
Sadly it sounds like 330s.

Nah, the 'experts' keep telling us DL will NEVER buy Airbus. You know, just like AA.   

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
Delta limiting themselves again.

In what way? I suspect DL knows what they're doing better than you.   

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
Damn NW Way of thinking. 777 is such a better plane.

It's a different plane.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: seahawk
Posted 2013-07-31 22:41:58 and read 17348 times.

Delta is quite strange. They decide to take their ordered 787s later but conider placing a not so small order for old generation widebodies, that will arrive later than the first 787s could have arrived.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: motorhussy
Posted 2013-07-31 22:42:52 and read 17305 times.

Quoting FSXJunkie (Reply 45):
Just trowing it out their, why not 747-8?


Given their recent/current upgrade of their existing 744 fleet, it would appear they intend the earlier Boeing version to be their top-capacity airliner for a while longer. I'd say the 777-X will likely replace them, but not for sometime yet, but no doubt they'll be taking a close look at how well the 787, A350 and 777X lines and variants role out before making a well informed decision there.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-07-31 23:32:44 and read 16760 times.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 49):
Given their recent/current upgrade of their existing 744 fleet, it would appear they intend the earlier Boeing version to be their top-capacity airliner for a while longer. I'd say the 777-X will likely replace them, but not for sometime yet, but no doubt they'll be taking a close look at how well the 787, A350 and 777X lines and variants role out before making a well informed decision there.

Sound reasoning and well said.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: 1400mph
Posted 2013-07-31 23:44:48 and read 16626 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
Nah, the 'experts' keep telling us DL will NEVER buy Airbus

Anything more than a curious 'flirt' would be a first for DL proper.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-08-01 00:01:12 and read 16489 times.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 30):
Up to 14-hours the 77E can match the 77L payload at about 40t. and this will get them from the West Coast to the Chinese mainland and over flying NRT

Damn right, here the great circle distances for US West coast to some major hubs in Asia:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/USA-Asia_zps1fa0b74f.jpg

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 32):
DL won't by 77Es. On the routes you are talking about, it costs a good deal more to operate. Boeing will be motivated to keep their existing line busy until the 77X goes into production. They will be motivated to not lose another domestic wb sale to Airbus. If they chose the 777, it will be the 77L. However, the HGW 330 is very capeable and Airbus will give them a great deal so I too think they will wind up going Airbus.
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 34):
It may have a similar payload but I understand that the fuel burn is better on the 77L than the 77E on those type of routes.

If we look on the planes in question they stack up like this:

Model ....spec range..prac. range..6000nm fuel..cabin m. m2...kg/knm/m2..LD3
332 242t..7300nm.....6200nm..........71.0t..........45.2....228.....51.8.........26
333 242t..6100nm.....5200nm..........76.4t..........50.4....256......49.8.........32
77E 298t..7700nm....6500nm..........82.1t..........49.1.....278......49.2..........32
77L 347t..9000nm.....7700nm..........83.6t..........49.1.....278......50.1.........32
77R 302t..6000nm.....5100nm.........95.5t...........59.2....338......47.1..........44
77W 351t.7900nm.....6700nm.........93.7t...........59.2....338......46.2..........44


So a lot of facts straight of my model, should be in the ballpark. The practical range is the spec range cut with 15%, a hint (- 10-15%) we have got from Zeke several times for a long range cabin+crew, catering, LD3 tares etc. Now one can look at the destinations involved, the frames legs and their cabin and LD3 capability and the fuel burns. Lets debate (if indeed it is the transpac capability that dominate in DLs minds)  .

[Edited 2013-08-01 00:14:32]

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2013-08-01 00:13:37 and read 16357 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):therefore DL is the most likely U.S. customer that Boeing probably envisions for a 777X order.
Perhaps, but the question is what DL wants and not what Boeing wants.

With DL already complaining about 787 prices and the 777-9X rumored to get a $400 million list price, I can see a very big gap between what DL wants and what Boeing wants  
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 16):I do wonder if the rumored 330 order comes to fruition, will DL stick with Pratt or will they possibly go RR? It's definitely not out of the question, after all US did that when they ordered the 332s.
Should DL order more A330s, it would probably be either Pratt or GE, for parts commonality with the existing A330 and 767 fleets.

But the 787s will get RR's..   

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):What type or mix of types will it be?
There are some hints given in the Bloomberg article posted in this recent thread:

Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order (by AeroWesty Mar 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)

And the rumor was consequently denied by DL. Is this the rumor that started this thread?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-08-01 00:25:41 and read 16129 times.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 53):
And the rumor was consequently denied by DL.

Companies always deny rumors   Yet most of them come true   

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: 777Boeing777
Posted 2013-08-01 04:19:50 and read 14457 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 12):
Now that assumes DL is buying new. I however kind of think DL will look at used 77Es.

I think this is the most plausible scenario. If this is a bridge order and the aircraft in question are A330's and 777's, why would DL buy new airframes, especially if these will be obsolete in the next 5-10 years when the models designed to replace them will be entering or already in service. I don't see where DL will get a positive ROI out of buying new. There are plenty of used a/c for DL to choose from, and would be more in line with their current fleet growth, ex. MD-90's and 717's.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 1):
30 or so A321's

For 757 replacement? The 739ER order was for replacement of the older 752's.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2013-08-01 05:08:48 and read 13856 times.

Not a chance for A321, not with the 100 B739ER on order.

My guess it's going to be either the B777 or the A330, odds favor the A330 (although I would much prefer to see more B777 in the fleet). This is probably where they regret that they pushed the 18 B787 order so far back...

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-08-01 05:22:04 and read 13641 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 54):
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 53):And the rumor was consequently denied by DL.
Companies always deny rumors Yet most of them come true

DL didn't deny anything. The official comment from a DL executive is that DL sees "opportunities in the marketplace selectively to add to our wide bodies"

The article was on Bloomsburg, a reputable source and has information from people supposedly close to the matter.

Its a pretty widely known rumor at this point that DL is looking at more 777 and A330.

Remember the 717 rumor that a lot of people denied, when the rumor came out that it was a "done deal".

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 55):
I think this is the most plausible scenario. If this is a bridge order and the aircraft in question are A330's and 777's, why would DL buy new airframes, especially if these will be obsolete in the next 5-10 years when the models designed to replace them will be entering or already in service.

The aircraft will not be obsolete in 5-10 years, at every point in the past there is an overlap in the generations of aircraft technology. DL can't wait 5-10 years for more widebodies. They have a need for widebodies, frankly now and it will only become more accute in the next few years.

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 55):
There are plenty of used a/c for DL to choose from, and would be more in line with their current fleet growth, ex. MD-90's and 717's.

Used widebodies are a different animal than the MD90 and 717 situations. Unique situations to pick-up essentially entire fleet types that no one else wanted. Plust the fixed costs on the mods for the MD90s were spread over a large number of aircraft (WN is paying for the 717 mods). Integrating one-off widebodies is different. The challenge is finding good used aircraft that are similar to the current models flown by DL that would not expend a huge amount of cost in mods/maintenance to bring up to spec with the rest of the fleet.

Is a lot more than just seats and interior fittings, its all of the avionics, software upgrades, airframe mods, engines, maintenance records, etc.

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 55):
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 1):30 or so A321's
For 757 replacement? The 739ER order was for replacement of the older 752's.

DL will need much more beyond the initial 100 739ERs to replace more 757s and A320s. The A321 rumor has some creditibility to it, but has taken on a life of its own. Its not a done deal, until is a done deal.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-08-01 05:36:43 and read 13442 times.

What does the used market for 777-200ERs look like? I know SQ has some on the market, but as regional birds how high-cycle are they?

Did AI ever off-load their 777-200LRs?

Airbus has been somewhat aggressive with leasing new A330-300s. Perhaps DL is considering that option?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-08-01 06:10:45 and read 12978 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 48):
Delta is quite strange. They decide to take their ordered 787s later but conider placing a not so small order for old generation widebodies, that will arrive later than the first 787s could have arrived.

From what I understand, DL paid a visit to Boeing a couple years ago and got spooked by the issues they saw with the 787. They decided then that the efficiencies of the aircraft were not worth what the earlier operators were going to have to go through. It appears that they made an accurate assessment.

Delta will still get 787s, but the 787s that Delta gets will hopefully be long past the challenges that the aircraft has been enduring for years now.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-08-01 06:12:59 and read 12913 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 1):
I believe the order will be for 1 777LR and 10-12 A330's along with 30 or so A321's

Since there are lots of wild speculation here.....

Let me go out on a limb and say DL cancels its 787s on order and switches them to a mix of 77L and end of model 77Ws

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-08-01 06:18:54 and read 12776 times.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 53):
But the 787s will get RR's..

as have their current 77Es

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2013-08-01 06:21:13 and read 12780 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 57):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 54):Quoting frigatebird (Reply 53):And the rumor was consequently denied by DL.
Companies always deny rumors Yet most of them come true
DL didn't deny anything. The official comment from a DL executive is that DL sees "opportunities in the marketplace selectively to add to our wide bodies"

The article was on Bloomsburg, a reputable source and has information from people supposedly close to the matter.

Its a pretty widely known rumor at this point that DL is looking at more 777 and A330.

You mean this article: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...new-widebody-order-bastian-383726/

Quoting from that article: "he described reports that the airline is studying a purchase of further Airbus A330s and Boeing 777s as "interesting", but said he did not see such an order as "necessary in the near future"."

No doubt DL is looking at the marketplace for opportunities, they've done so for many years. If there is an opportunity for a great deal on 777s or A330s they'd be stupid not to look at it. Like the 7x E190 KL will take, they didn't plan to but when another airline cancelled their order it was a great opportunity to get them cheap.

But this rumor:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Thread starter):
DL would shortly make a wide-body order so they can grow the international markets

indeed was denied: "We made a decision several years ago that we were not going to be growing that widebody fleet,"

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-08-01 06:28:00 and read 12653 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 56):
My guess it's going to be either the B777 or the A330, odds favor the A330 (although I would much prefer to see more B777 in the fleet). This is probably where they regret that they pushed the 18 B787 order so far back...

If it is to expand primarily to Asia my post 52 shows that you are short legged with the A330-300 even in it's 242t variant. It gerts you to NRT, ICN and PVG but not very much longer. The 77E gets you to all places except Sydney as does the 77W and the 77L gets you everywhere  .

Would DL really be the last ones to buy the 77E or 77L? I think they buy 77W for these missions, has the best economics and growth.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PanAm788
Posted 2013-08-01 06:34:46 and read 12490 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
77E 298t..7700nm....6500nm..........82.1t..........49.1.....278......49.2..........32
77L 347t..9000nm.....7700nm..........83.6t..........49.1.....278......50.1.........32
77R 302t..6000nm.....5100nm.........95.5t...........59.2....338......47.1..........44

What is a 77R?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: sonomaflyer
Posted 2013-08-01 06:38:52 and read 12469 times.

No one has bought the AI 77Ls. Part of the issue might be the lack of spec documentation on maintenence. I don't think there are any other 77Ls on the market.

I'm sure there are folks who would unload 77Es though they are going to be relatively high cycle/hours flown a/c. How many of those are RR powered? Not many.

Boeing is motivated. They would give DL a great deal on 77Ls. It is far more capeable than the HGW 333 and could comfortably cover any of DLs routes at full passenger/cargo loads.

Sure DL can pick up used a/c but that's unlikely given how they came to acquire their used narrow bodies (orphan types/out of production). If they can pick up 77Ls at close to the cost of 77Es and new, I'd expect them to grab 10-15 of them.

It all depends on where they see this new a/c in their system. The 333s can perform many of the missions and the overall costs might be lower (acquisition and operation). However, they can't fly to HKG or SIN from the West Coast with a meaningful load much less SYD. The best you can expect would be LAX/SFO/SEA to places like NRT, ICN, HND.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: MIflyer12
Posted 2013-08-01 06:44:19 and read 12361 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 60):
Since there are lots of wild speculation here.....

Let me go out on a limb and say DL cancels its 787s on order and switches them to a mix of 77L and end of model 77Ws

I really doubt that. DL needs 787s eventually: It has 58 767-300ERs to replace.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-08-01 06:46:08 and read 12359 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 40):
Then why did they push their orders back until 2020?

We have dealt with this question in the past but for those that may be new to a.net, after DL merged with NW they took a close look at the aircraft and the contracts and determined that the initial 788's would not meet range, payload or design specifications. It was also too small for their needs. They wanted a larger aircraft capable of longer thin routes. A mix of 789 -10's would meet that need.

However, I am watching the development of the A350XWB with great interest to see how much range and payload they can get out of it.

The 777X looks good on paper but is a very expensive piece of equipment. DL has repeatedly said that they want to pay down long term debt, buy back stock and keep their financial house in order. There is always another downward cycle not to far in the future for the airline industry and you have to have a lot of cash in order to weather it. That is not a time when you want to be saddled with $40B in debt.

For now I see the 744's soldiering on until at least 2020, a modest order for B77L and A333ER's to carry them over to the next logical replacement cycle and a sharp eye on every new model coming out of Seattle and Toulouse. If the 787-10 performs as specified I think it will definitely find a place in the DL fleet.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-08-01 06:50:55 and read 12268 times.

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 64):
What is a 77R?

A 777-300

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-08-01 06:56:11 and read 12240 times.

Unless there's a major hiccup between Boeing and Delta, I can see Delta's long-haul fleet based around at least 100 787s. Till then, why bother why buying new? Just pick up aircraft on the market.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2013-08-01 07:05:43 and read 12033 times.

How likely is a 764 order?

DL will be flying 767s for a long while still. They could get fast deliveries and still plenty of years to use them. And who knows, maybe a good deal from Boeing given how few they have been making lately.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-08-01 07:15:56 and read 11847 times.

If these Dl guys know how to deal, I guess they are going to get A330 a few 77´s and get a nice buy back from Airbus and then make a huge A350 a couple of years from now, and outright cancel the 787... or keep a small fleet of those for specific markets.

TRB

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-08-01 07:27:09 and read 11648 times.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
How likely is a 764 order?

Could Boeing Propose DL A 767-400LR?
(by 1337Delta764 Jul 31 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: einsteinboricua
Posted 2013-08-01 07:33:16 and read 11552 times.

When did the A321 become a widebody? I've seen many mention it as part of the widebody order.

Quoting pwdalmech (Reply 39):
Delta will make a rather large order for the 787 at some point.

Didn't the options from NW carry over to DL? How many frames did NW had in mind? Wasn't it around 50 (18 firm and 32 options)?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: audidudi
Posted 2013-08-01 07:40:39 and read 11417 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 68):

I think the 77W is a 777-300, not the 77R.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2013-08-01 07:45:58 and read 11415 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 71):
If these Dl guys know how to deal, I guess they are going to get A330 a few 77´s and get a nice buy back from Airbus and then make a huge A350 a couple of years from now, and outright cancel the 787... or keep a small fleet of those for specific markets.

Not a chance. I doubt DL will be buying the A350. DL will most likely buy Boeing for the foreseeable future as evidenced by the 737-900ER deal against Airbus A321.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-08-01 07:54:11 and read 11245 times.

Quoting audidudi (Reply 74):
I think the 77W is a 777-300, not the 77R.

77W is definitely a 777-300ER, not a -300.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: BD338
Posted 2013-08-01 07:56:00 and read 11398 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 75):
DL will most likely buy Boeing for the foreseeable future as evidenced by the 737-900ER deal against Airbus A321.

DL will buy based on the best deal. Word at the time of the 737-9 deal was that the A321 was 'in the bag' until DL went back to Boeing and got an even better deal. If Boeing can continue to offer the best price and overall long term best economics then I'm sure it will be Boeing but if Airbus can offer a better deal then no reason they cannot win an order. DL are so big these days and the order potential so large that splitting orders doesn't really damage the economies of scale, and there are arguments that DL putting all their eggs in one basket is not necessarily a good thing either, and that doesn't matter if it is all Boeing or all Airbus. 100 737 and 100 A320 isn't a whole world of difference economically from 200 of either type (assuming the same basic cost is the smae for each) in terms of spares, resources etc.


...as to the original quesiton, is there any evidence outside of a.net rumors that DL is even considering a widebody order anytime in the near future?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-08-01 08:10:45 and read 11095 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 59):
From what I understand, DL paid a visit to Boeing a couple years ago and got spooked by the issues they saw with the 787. They decided then that the efficiencies of the aircraft were not worth what the earlier operators were going to have to go through. It appears that they made an accurate assessment.

Also DL would be getting some of the first build 787s which are rumored to be heavier, and short of range expectations.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 59):
Delta will still get 787s, but the 787s that Delta gets will hopefully be long past the challenges that the aircraft has been enduring for years now.

   I don't doubt that DL will eventually order the 787, but I do have my doubts that the 788 will join the fleet. Maybe a few of them, but I think the majority of them will be 787-9s and 787-10s. I also wouldn't be surprised to see some A350s join fleet.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-01 08:22:40 and read 10877 times.

What ever it is. Please, please, please don't buy used.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2013-08-01 08:33:41 and read 10864 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 77):
...as to the original quesiton, is there any evidence outside of a.net rumors that DL is even considering a widebody order anytime in the near future?

Yes, Bloomberg is reporting on it.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-08-01 10:34:57 and read 9377 times.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
Model ....spec range..prac. range..6000nm fuel..cabin m. m2...kg/knm/m2..LD3
332 242t..7300nm.....6200nm..........71.0t..........45.2....228.....51.8.........26
333 242t..6100nm.....5200nm..........76.4t..........50.4....256......49.8.........32
77E 298t..7700nm....6500nm..........82.1t..........49.1.....278......49.2..........32
77L 347t..9000nm.....7700nm..........83.6t..........49.1.....278......50.1.........32
77R 302t..6000nm.....5100nm.........95.5t...........59.2....338......47.1..........44
77W 351t.7900nm.....6700nm.........93.7t...........59.2....338......46.2..........44

Thank you for the data ferpe. If there was any wonder why the 77E stopped selling this should put that to bed. The 77E does appear to have slightly better fuel burn at range which definitely contradicts previous info but it is very close. I never realized that one stretch of the 77E yielded 12 additional LD3 slots.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-08-01 14:03:38 and read 8415 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 81):
If there was any wonder why the 77E stopped selling this should put that to bed. The 77E does appear to have slightly better fuel burn at range which definitely contradicts previous info but it is very close.

This was my reaction as well, first time I ran them all at the same distance and also did the great circle stuff so see what is involved going transpac. Seems very few flights go longer then LAX-SYD or SFO-PVG, you are at 13-15 hour legs and after that the airlines and also the pax prefer a 2 hop strategy it seems.

The 77E is not selling because the 77W is so much better IMO, if the 77W would not exist the 77E would still sell. If you can't fill a 77E absolutely full and the leg is around 5000nm better go for a 333, takes 7% less trip fuel.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PM
Posted 2013-08-01 19:57:02 and read 7941 times.

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 55):
especially if these will be obsolete in the next 5-10 years

I wish people would stop using the word "obsolete" with reference to airliners still selling and still in production.

A 747-100 would be "obsolete" today - or a 1-11.

The arrival of the 787 doesn't overnight render the A330 obsolete. The A350 won't make the 777 obsolete. The A320neo and MAX won't make all previous 150-seaters obsolete.

This week ANA ordered another 767. They're buying an "obsolete" airliner? I think not.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2013-08-01 20:11:41 and read 7911 times.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 35):
For first deliveries after the pilots' 747/777 fences come down, don't you think? 1/1/15 IIRC.

How is that relevant in any way? Management doesn't care who on a seniority list flys what aircraft.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
Delta limiting themselves again.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
777 is such a better plane.

First off, you don't know (nor do any of us) what the order even is; secondly, you may think the 777 is a better plane and for some missions it is. For others it is not. What routes are they looking at and would they justify a price premium to buy and operate the 777? You CAN go bankrupt flying too much airplane to the wrong destinations and I'm sure the DL team knows much more about their needs than anyone on this board.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):Delta limiting themselves again. In what way? I suspect DL knows what they're doing better than you.

   Exactly.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):Damn NW Way of thinking. 777 is such a better plane. It's a different plane.

  

Quoting seahawk (Reply 48):
Delta is quite strange. They decide to take their ordered 787s later but conider placing a not so small order for old generation widebodies, that will arrive later than the first 787s could have arrived.

So clearly DL doesn't want 787's at this time. Not strange at all; they have looked at the product and currenly don't want it in their fleet. Like scbriml said, DL knows their needs better than anyone contributing to this board.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 56):
This is probably where they regret that they pushed the 18 B787 order so far back...

Who says they regret it? Source?

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 65):
Boeing is motivated. They would give DL a great deal on 77Ls. It is far more capeable than the HGW 333 and could comfortably cover any of DLs routes at full passenger/cargo loads.

If they don't need 77L's they don't need them. It's that simple. If they need them they will buy them.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
How likely is a 764 order?

That would be a true shock to pretty much everyone (other than for one 764 fan who comes to mind.)

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 75):
Not a chance. I doubt DL will be buying the A350. DL will most likely buy Boeing for the foreseeable future as evidenced by the 737-900ER deal against Airbus A321.

Source?

Quoting BD338 (Reply 77):
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 75): DL will most likely buy Boeing for the foreseeable future as evidenced by the 737-900ER deal against Airbus A321.DL will buy based on the best deal.

  

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-08-01 20:21:57 and read 7862 times.

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 64):
What is a 77R?
Quoting ferpe (Reply 68):
A 777-300

Why not just use the IATA designation of 773?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-01 20:36:02 and read 7820 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
Nah, the 'experts' keep telling us DL will NEVER buy Airbus. You know, just like AA.   

haha...that never gets old.   7late7 and all the cute little names you guys come up with are also still very awesome.  
Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
In what way? I suspect DL knows what they're doing better than you.   

and maybe they need more airplanes to fly SEA to Asia....but maybe make it to HKG year...maybe.
and of course, Europe is doing so well they should clearly pump more capacity there.

(never mind the fact they have a hard time finding homes for the 333 fleet in the winter, running low utilization and most of the time parking a frame or two)

In what way? Look at Delta's network, hubs in ATL/DTW/JFK/LAX and SEA and look at where they want to expand, Asia...mostly China. I have yet to see a A330 that can fly any of the above markets to China, other than SEA-PEK(doesn't take year daily 763 flights) and PVG(new route, but enough 332s in the fleet to cover it) and maybe LAX-PEK....but IIRC it would be a bit of a stretch.
DTW/JFK/ATL-China are completely out with the 330.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
It's a different plane.

for where Delta has publicly said they want to expand the range of the T7 is better. I can see a need for more 332s ALSO, but on a fairly long rang look (3-5 years) I can't see how Delta can expand to Asia without more 777s. (and its not like the vast amount of 777 flights are short haul flights. Maybe 1 or two T7 routes could go 330 (MSP-NRT, LAX-NRT) but the bulk of the current 777 network it too long for the 330. I also can't see much of the SEA network being upgraded unless Delta develops it into a true hub.)

Quoting OA412 (Reply 78):
I also wouldn't be surprised to see some A350s join fleet.

I'm not sure. The 787 can basically replace the bulk of Delta's fleet. The only thing I see that would need another aircraft is the 777 fleet. IIRC the longest range model aircraft of the 777X/350 is a 777.
but may be wrong. Hopefully if they do that means TrentXWB overhauls for TechOps.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 78):
I don't doubt that DL will eventually order the 787, but I do have my doubts that the 788 will join the fleet. Maybe a few of them, but I think the majority of them will be 787-9s and 787-10s.

I still think the bulk of the 767 fleet is replaced by the 788.....789/78...uh...1? someone help me out with this?
are too big for the bulk of the 763 network.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 77):

...as to the original quesiton, is there any evidence outside of a.net rumors that DL is even considering a widebody order anytime in the near future?

has been talk....but mostly just that. Last I heard this order would be done in June so.....?
It could happen in a few months when Delta announces the summer flying.
Vinay Dube (SVP Asia) has said to expect an order for the short term, then a larger order for the long term. I can't find the PR now but it also says they plan to grow in China and such. (but again, never really said "when" it would happen)

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 17):

Should DL order more A330s, it would probably be either Pratt or GE, for parts commonality with the existing A330 and 767 fleets.

few things,
1) the PW4000 is the worst performing engine for the 330.
2) It is also very much not the PW4000 on the 767. It is bigger for one.
3)The CF6 for the 330 is the -80E1 where the 767 fleet is all -80C2 type. Again, not the same engine. (even your beloved CF6 on the 767-400s are done in TPE vis the 763 engine done in house because it is different.)
4)PM will have to back me up on this but I believe the T700 is the better of the three engines and it sell numbers back this up. IIRC the T700 has over 50% of the A330 worldwide fleet.

but it will come down to the best deal, I would bet on the PW4000.....again, all about disappointments with this order.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2013-08-01 20:43:18 and read 7774 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
The A321 rumors were started due to lines for them painted at the ramps at ATL, and they have already been removed. The painting was outsourced to a contractor, and were painted in error (or possibly as a prank). Fact is, DL has no need for the A321 since they have already ordered 100 739ERs.

They were also painted in MSP, SLC, DTW as well, in fact just painted in DTW about a month ago. You don't send a contractor out there to add lines for one aircraft type as a "prank".

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-08-01 22:39:02 and read 7595 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 86):
The 787 can basically replace the bulk of Delta's fleet. The only thing I see that would need another aircraft is the 777 fleet.

Unless DL moves to 10-abreast in Economy on their 777-200ERs, the 787-9 can be a direct replacement as the cabin lengths are effectively identical and the 787 cabin is wide enough to fit the current BusinessElite seat in the same 1+2+1 configuration.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-08-01 22:53:57 and read 7537 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 48):
Delta is quite strange. They decide to take their ordered 787s later but conider placing a not so small order for old generation widebodies, that will arrive later than the first 787s could have arrived.

And they'll be flying this "bridge" group while the other airlines are trying to work the kinks out of their 787 fleets.....by the time DL takes delivery of the 787s in 2020, they'll be ready to change the order to -9s and -10s to replace, mostly, the 767 fleet.

Also, DL won't be saddled with the debt the other carriers will have, simply because DL decided to by something that was less expensive, for the time being, instead of buying a shiny new fleet, just because they are "new" a/c.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-08-01 23:35:52 and read 7428 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 81):
The 77E does appear to have slightly better fuel burn at range which definitely contradicts previous info but it is very close.

I put in cabin length and area to make a judgement easier what one can get into the cabin, taking the OEMs seat numbers is not reliable at all as Airbus and Boeing does not use the same standards for spec seating. In this case the 77E has a larger cabin area but a shorter cabin. Looking at DL configs this yields:

....................Bus 80'..........Econ+ 35'.........Econ 32'.........Seats
77E/77L.........45...................36.....................188...............269
333.................34...................32......................227..............293

Clearly the 333 config (which uses the new J seat) is more economy skewed and therefore has more seats. But one can see that it is not easy to judge what cabin works better, the longer one (333) or the wider one (777-200xx). It all depends on the seating and then in real operations how one can fill those classes, horses for corses. For the business section the 330 fuselage is as effective as the wider 777, they both get 4 abreast, the difference comes in Y, it is 8 vs. 9 normally, if the 777 goes 10 it wins hands down.

The fuel burn per m2 is a good first indicator but it is not a panacea. Suffice to say, with 332, 333, 77E and 77L one has a good mix of capabilities to plan a network expansion around, the 77W would add peak capacity with payload-range for all cases.

[Edited 2013-08-02 00:19:48]

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-08-02 01:13:34 and read 7219 times.

For those who like to ponder around capabilities here the complementary Payload-Rang chart for the frames in question:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/PR33233377E77L77W_zps1591cfa8.jpg

It serves to check if there is tonnes to spare to carry a denser/heavier cabin for a e.g. a 10 abreast 77E, L or W. They all seems to have capacity to lift more if needed. I use the following OEWs; 332 120t, 333 126.5t, 77E 140t, 77L 145t and 77W 168t. Those are ACAP figures for the two last ones and a couple of tonnes over for the first 3. The 332 and 333 have upped their MTOW several times since the last stated OEW and the 333 variant is with the central fuel area equipped so the OEWs should be reasonable, for the 77E I am 2t over their ACAP figure but that was for a 2 class cabin ie should also be fair deal. If I am a bit conservative for anyone it could be the 333, you can draw the MSP line at 50t like for the 332 if that helps , the fuel vs payload line after the kink does not change. BTW, the slope of that line shows you the frames fuel burn as it trades a tonne of payload for a tonne of fuel and it shows what "MPT" you get from this swap.

[Edited 2013-08-02 01:39:53]

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-08-02 01:30:51 and read 7184 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 75):
Not a chance. I doubt DL will be buying the A350. DL will most likely buy Boeing for the foreseeable future

Perhaps, but the times of "Americans buying Boeing aircraft only" are over. In the current badly financial times, airlines buy what suits them best.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 75):
as evidenced by the 737-900ER deal against Airbus A321.

That's IMO not the same because the 737 and A320 are basically identical aircraft, but the 787 and A350 are different enough to buy both. Hence many airlines will have both aircraft in the fleet.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: 777Boeing777
Posted 2013-08-02 04:33:59 and read 6924 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 83):
I wish people would stop using the word "obsolete" with reference to airliners still selling and still in production.

And I wish some people would stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions about what others post. The 787-8/9 are designed to be 767-family replacements, so yes, the pax version of the 767 will eventually be, as I stated in the next 5-10 years, obsolete. The same holds true for the A330 vs A350. Yes, they are still in production and are still fine aircraft, but they will eventually go out of production once all orders are filled for that version, etc. Both the 767 and A330 will likely live on longer in F-variants until if/when their replacements are launched and enter service.

Quoting PM (Reply 83):
This week ANA ordered another 767. They're buying an "obsolete" airliner? I think not.

The version NH ordered is the F, which unlike the pax version, still has a strong demand with, IMO little competition and a direct replacement many years away. It fills the gap nicely between the 777F/747F and the 757F.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-08-02 09:18:31 and read 6522 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 86):
never mind the fact they have a hard time finding homes for the 333 fleet in the winter, running low utilization and most of the time parking a frame or two

They wouldn't be considering more of them if they didn't feel confident they could find a good use for them.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 86):
again, all about disappointments with this order.

Why? DL has more info at their disposal than all of us. If they are seriously considering ordering the 330, then it fits in with their needs. They're not going to buy an inadequate aircraft if one that better suits their needs is available. I really doubt they don't know what they're doing. You're also assuming that this order will be all 330. Some have mentioned that it may be split 777/330. We will only know if/when the order is announced.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 87):
They were also painted in MSP, SLC, DTW as well, in fact just painted in DTW about a month ago. You don't send a contractor out there to add lines for one aircraft type as a "prank".

Come now. What are these facts you speak of? It was painted in ATL as a prank. The 739 was ordered, and there is no A321 pilot payscale, therefore DL will never order the A321.  

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-08-02 14:18:14 and read 6151 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 77):
...as to the original quesiton, is there any evidence outside of a.net rumors that DL is even considering a widebody order anytime in the near future?
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 62):
You mean this article: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...new-widebody-order-bastian-383726/

I want to know where it is printed that DL is contemplating a wide body order at all. In March it was stated that DL was not looking at a widebody order.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 92):

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 75):
Not a chance. I doubt DL will be buying the A350. DL will most likely buy Boeing for the foreseeable future

Perhaps, but the times of "Americans buying Boeing aircraft only" are over. In the current badly financial times, airlines buy what suits them best.

This I agree with and you can bet that DL will consider all options when they are ready.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-08-02 15:06:51 and read 5982 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 87):
They were also painted in MSP, SLC, DTW as well, in fact just painted in DTW about a month ago. You don't send a contractor out there to add lines for one aircraft type as a "prank".

So, why were they removed at ATL? It doesn't make any sense that DL would ask the contractor to paint A321 lines and then remove them. The painting at ATL was intended to be for the 717 and 739ER.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-02 23:03:07 and read 5572 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 88):

thought so. so basically, unless they need the range of the LR they could go nothing but 787. If they need then the range then a limited fleet of 777Xs.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 94):

Why? DL has more info at their disposal than all of us. If they are seriously considering ordering the 330, then it fits in with their needs. They're not going to buy an inadequate aircraft if one that better suits their needs is available. I really doubt they don't know what they're doing. You're also assuming that this order will be all 330. Some have mentioned that it may be split 777/330. We will only know if/when the order is announced.

I didn't say they didn't have a need for them completely, But you know as well I do they have very few markets they can add with the 332.

and i am just going off of what I am hearing in the hangar. It went from 30 737s and 20ish plus options 777 to 15-30321s and 10-15 330s. No 777/737s at this time. (of course it did change overnight). Im not against more 332s, im just against no more T7s.

I would rather see 20 777s and 10-15 332s(with a respectable engine  &nbsp 
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 96):

You're making way too much out of nothing.

They were giving out A332 stickers in the airbus office a few days ago at the hangar....between that and a 321 lines a some airports it is clear they are going to order them.   

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PM
Posted 2013-08-02 23:12:58 and read 5543 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 97):
with a respectable engine

Care to elaborate?  

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: ferpe
Posted 2013-08-02 23:20:27 and read 5534 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 97):
I would rather see 20 777s and 10-15 332s

If the goal is to get new iron to penetrate more destinations in Asia then that seems to make sense:

- The distances involved are often past the practical limit of the 333 even in it's 242t version with central fuel tank. The 332 gives you another 1k nm in a frame which is sized to open a destination or for lower demand periods.

- The 777-200 is a clear step up in capacity when needed above the 332. If they go for the -200 we have heard B and GE like to sell the 77L rather then the 77E and given the 3-4% better engines they burn the same fuel despite the 77L being heavier. So a good guess would be more 77Ls.

- If DL sees capacity or slot constrains somewhere else in their network the 77W could also come into play, would free up 77Es and 77Ls for Asia.

[Edited 2013-08-02 23:50:11]

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: curiousflyer
Posted 2013-08-03 00:04:08 and read 5465 times.

DL can think out of the box. They got their own oil refinery.

I would not be surprised if they got a few 388s or 748s, so they can compete on price on routes like JFK-TYO, ATL-TYO, LAX-SYD, JFK-GRU, JFK-China

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-03 03:05:47 and read 5300 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 98):

Other than somehow for whatever stupid reason NW picked the worst engine....and had three to chose from.

Because of the lower power I'm not even sure a DL 332 can do SEA-HKG year round.
I believe it would be a bit of a push for a Trent or CF6 332, and a long route like LAX-AKL is completely out of the question for a DL 332.



But I know you know this  
Quoting ferpe (Reply 99):

Pretty much agree. 777s for long haul, top off 332 for some shorter flying, mostly from SEA.

A mix of 200/300 is what I expect, though I could see the 200s being ERs with Trent's. The GE90 hasn't been nearly as reliable for DL as the Trent.

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 100):

Won't happen. 330/777 are the only aircraft being looked at for the first order.

777X, 350, 787 will come into play in an order probably around 2015

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: PM
Posted 2013-08-03 03:49:52 and read 5284 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 101):
The GE90 hasn't been nearly as reliable for DL as the Trent.

I keep hearing this. Excellent!   

But, to be absolutely honest, I'm surprised. I thought the GE90 - at least the 'big' ones of the 77W and 77L - were pretty outstanding engines in every respect.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-08-03 05:03:16 and read 5199 times.

[a330 and 30A321

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 79):
What ever it is. Please, please, please don't buy used.


Delta has been buying used lately and is the most profitable in the US if not the world. They must be doing something right

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
Damn NW Way of thinking. 777 is such a better plane.
Meh is what it is though. Better than more outsourcing.


Very smart of NW to think that

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 101):
Because of the lower power I'm not even sure a DL 332 can do SEA-HKG year round.
I believe it would be a bit of a push for a Trent or CF6 332, and a long route like LAX-AKL is completely out of the question for a DL 332.



Thank God that 764 is not under condideration. That woud really be a poor choice

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-08-03 08:51:35 and read 4853 times.

Since we know a 767-400 of any type is not going to be part of the order, can we just drop it before that debate drags the thread off topic to the point the moderators close it (like what happened to the "767-400LR" thread after about 10 posts).

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-03 10:48:41 and read 4620 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 103):

Thanks bob
You had to get him started.
God help us all

Quoting PM (Reply 102):

It's had it's issue for sure but hopefully it turns around

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-08-03 12:01:29 and read 3506 times.

I think we've (re-)established that a 764 is not under consideration for this bridge order.

Instead of continuing to ruthlessly beat a now very dead horse, I am going to boldly propose that we steer this thread back onto its intended track.

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 100):
I would not be surprised if they got a few 388s or 748s, so they can compete on price on routes like JFK-TYO, ATL-TYO, LAX-SYD, JFK-GRU, JFK-China

Perhaps a ways down the road, but I don't see any new VLAs being ordered in the immediate future at DL. It seems most likely that we're looking at the 777/330 or some mix thereof.

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: AirMailer
Posted 2013-08-04 10:48:16 and read 2951 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 86):
788.....789/78...uh...1? someone help me out with this?

78J I think?

Topic: RE: So What Will The Rumored DLwide-body Order Be?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-08-04 13:14:26 and read 2713 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 109):
Thanks bob
You had to get him started.
God help us all


Any time I can helpfull


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