Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5842366/

Topic: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: lucky777
Posted 2013-08-11 11:43:17 and read 6694 times.

We often hear about how DAL/AA/UA all do against one another to Europe and Asia but very seldom do we hear about how the 3 carriers stack up to one another visa-vis Latin and South America. I guess its widely accepted that AA is, and seemingly always will be, the 800lb gorilla to all points south, but how does UA and DAL compare?

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-08-11 11:54:24 and read 6690 times.

There are regular posts about profit margins. American is the biggest to the Caribbean and South America, but I think United is the biggest to Mexico serving about 30 destinations.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-08-11 12:05:17 and read 6638 times.

From the US to South America I believe United ranks 3rd in terms of overall flights, I believe Delta has more flights going into South America than United and as you pointed out American has the most nonstop flights.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-08-11 12:14:23 and read 6600 times.

United has as strong presence in certain Latin markets but lacks what AA & DL have, a southeastern gateway to the region. UA biggest gateway is Houston so they fly to every corner of Mexico. UA's Newark hub also flies to most Latin Capitols and the Caribean. UA flies to much of the region from Houston and flies to Sao Paulo from four USA cities: Newark, IAH, IAD and Chicago.

[Edited 2013-08-11 12:58:38]

[Edited 2013-08-11 13:02:20]

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-08-11 12:30:36 and read 6538 times.

United is significantly larger to Latin America than Delta in both enplanements and ASMs

Profit wise, historically the region was the most profitable for CO.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: Jonathanxxxx
Posted 2013-08-11 13:15:57 and read 6415 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
United has as strong presence in certain Latin markets but lacks what AA & DL have, a southeastern gateway to the region. UA biggest gateway is Houston so they fly to every corner of Mexico. UA's Newark hub also flies to most Latin Capitols and the Caribean. UA flies to much of the region from Houston and flies to Sao Paulo from four USA cities: Newark, IAH, IAD and Chicago.

Most Latin Capitals? From EWR UA only serves three (soon to be two) capitals in South America. Not sure how they rank in Central America and the caribbean but UA doesn't serve most Latin Capitals from one of the most important markets in the US, EWR (basically NYC).

Okay, maybe all the capitals aren't too important, but only four destinations are currently served in South America proper from EWR. SCL, GIG, CCS, or BSB aren't even served from EWR. UA really lacks in the NYC area- South America market.

Yes, United is strong, but it really doesn't compare to AA and is still smaller than DL.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: CM767
Posted 2013-08-11 13:15:59 and read 6412 times.

Also consider that UA has a partnership with CM and offers some routes to Latam trough them, for example to SCL

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: avek00
Posted 2013-08-11 13:43:02 and read 6320 times.

Quoting Jonathanxxxx (Reply 5):
UA really lacks in the NYC area- South America market.

For good reasons:

1. NYC metro to deep South America flying is extremely JFK-centric, as the O&D demand is overwhelmingly heading to, or from, New York City and Long Island (though Northern New Jersey has sizeable Brazilian, Colombian, and Peruvian populations that help sustain service from Newark).

Note that while Newark has seen all sorts of international carriers come in since the late 1990s, the South American legacies generally haven't attempted to launch service there.

2. Related to #1, the Latin American carriers and AA really do provide ample NYC capacity for most of the demand that can be carried profitably, so there's no substantial pent-up need for United to fulfill.

3. United is part of a JV that is the largest operation over the Atlantic, and thus can almost certainly use a 767 more effectively to Europe than to Buenos Aires (or Santiago, or pretty much anywhere in South America other than Brazil) from Newark.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-08-11 13:57:24 and read 6273 times.

Quoting Jonathanxxxx (Reply 5):
Yes, United is strong, but it really doesn't compare to AA and is still smaller than DL.

   

I guess you did not notice my reply 4 --


Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
United is significantly larger to Latin America than Delta in both enplanements and ASMs

Might not be as noticeable, but UA has a very significant Latin franchise, particularly from Houston.

[Edited 2013-08-11 13:59:34]

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: a380787
Posted 2013-08-11 14:00:06 and read 6248 times.

Quoting Jonathanxxxx (Reply 5):
Yes, United is strong, but it really doesn't compare to AA and is still smaller than DL.

i think you mean UA is smaller than DL when only comparing deep South America

if you count the entire Latin America (inc Mexico) I can't see UA really falling behind DL

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2013-08-11 14:43:39 and read 6136 times.

For the sake of clarification.

South America is the region south of Columbia. And if memory serves is ranked AA, DL, UA.

Central America is the region between South America and the United States EXCLUDING Mexico and the Caribbean. And again if memory serves, this area is still very even amongst the three though it still goes AA, UA, DL

Latin America is the region south of the United States that speak languages derived from Latin. This includes, the Caribbean, Mexico, Central America, and most of South America. Here AA is the clear leader with DL and UA following quite a ways back.

Caribbean is the region of islands located within the Caribbean Sea. Once again AA leads in this area with UA and DL following behind. Though I believe DL has a slight edge on this area compared to UA, but I dont recall exactly.

Also some data:

Latin America ASM (2012)
AA - 31B
UA - 19B
DL - 15B
B6 - 6B
US - 6B

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: Jonathanxxxx
Posted 2013-08-11 14:52:11 and read 6103 times.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 9):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

Yep. Apologies. Pretty sure UA is smaller than DL to South Amerca overall. No Caribbean or Central America.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: boeing773ER
Posted 2013-08-11 14:52:31 and read 6103 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 10):

Wow...the new AA will be a huge powerhouse Latin America, but of course who knows if all of those routes will stay...but they will be bigger then both UA/DL combined.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-08-11 14:59:11 and read 6079 times.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 12):
Wow...the new AA will be a huge powerhouse Latin America, but of course who knows if all of those routes will stay...but they will be bigger then both UA/DL combined.

This is nothing new. AA has been the dominant force between the U.S. and Latin America for going on two decades now.

Again - MIA is the key to the kingdom. Whoever controls MIA controls the U.S.-Latin America air travel market. That airline just happens to be AA. If AA were to cease to exist tomorrow, I think it's fair to assume that Delta or United would add 100 flights or more out of MIA as quick as they could possibly arrange, and then they would be the dominant U.S.-Latin America carrier.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: VC10er
Posted 2013-08-11 15:03:14 and read 6066 times.

Brazil gets the most attention GRU and GIG.

Non-stop to GRU:
EWR 767-400
ORD: 767-3ER maybe a 777 (3 class)
IAD: 777 (3 class)
IAH: AC?
Then all above get to tag onto the IAD 777 to GIG

IAH: GIG non-stop 767-400, with very good connections
Strong rumors circulate about an EWR non-stop to GIG (let's all pray)

When TAM is gone, no Star Alliance non-stop from NYC to GIG and worse, no Star Connection onwards to any destinations from GRU or GIG. This sucks for me BIG TIME.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-08-11 15:21:31 and read 5996 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
Again - MIA is the key to the kingdom. Whoever controls MIA controls the U.S.-Latin America air travel market. That airline just happens to be AA. If AA were to cease to exist tomorrow, I think it's fair to assume that Delta or United would add 100 flights or more out of MIA as quick as they could possibly arrange, and then they would be the dominant U.S.-Latin America carrier.

While Miami is the first city for US travel to Latin America, the market has expanded in the last 20 years to be viable from a variety of non-traditional gateways. Certain gateways like Houston and Dallas that were traditionally concentrated on Mexico and central america are now viable as gateways to all of South America. Look at AA in DFW, nonstops by many 777 to the bigger cities. Atlanta is the king of expansion into South America, Delta's first flight to Brazil was not until 1996 and as they say the rest is history.

Miami is the King but the Prince of Wales is claiming its turf too in that market.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: a380787
Posted 2013-08-11 15:23:48 and read 5992 times.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 14):
and worse, no Star Connection onwards to any destinations from GRU or GIG. This sucks for me BIG TIME.

Avianca Brasil won't be far behind (they didn't join first time around because it was rumored TAM objected)

AvBr, while MUCH smaller than TAM or Gol, would still provide decent connections to all the large cities once they come onboard Star.

Despite not having a GRU-hubbed airline (and discounting US Airways), Star serves GRU nonstop from 5 airports in North America, 8 in Europe, and 2 in Africa. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Edited 2013-08-11 15:27:26]

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: SCL767
Posted 2013-08-11 15:28:48 and read 5944 times.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 16):
(they didn't join first time around because it was rumored TAM objected)

Also, they did not join the first time around since their IT system requires significant enhancements in order to join Star.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-08-11 15:59:27 and read 5873 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
While Miami is the first city for US travel to Latin America, the market has expanded in the last 20 years to be viable from a variety of non-traditional gateways. Certain gateways like Houston and Dallas that were traditionally concentrated on Mexico and central america are now viable as gateways to all of South America. Look at AA in DFW, nonstops by many 777 to the bigger cities. Atlanta is the king of expansion into South America, Delta's first flight to Brazil was not until 1996 and as they say the rest is history.

For sure. I was not claiming that Miami was the only viable gateway to Latin America. AA at DFW, Delta in ATL, and United (Continental) in IAH have for years been proving that's not the case. And of course there's always NYC, which is the only other U.S. city that even comes close to rivaling MIA in terms of demand to non-Mexico Latin America. Nonetheless, while all of those are strong (and continuously-growing) gateways to the region, none of them can ever match the sheer volume (and geographic diversity) of demand that MIA generates. Case in point, as just one example: AA has more seats per day between MIA and GRU/GIG than United does between the U.S. and Brazil in total.

The numbers really are staggering. There is no other geographic region of the world for which U.S. traffic is more concentrated at a single U.S. gateway as Latin America and MIA. And if you exclude Mexico, the disparity gets even more dramatic.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-08-11 16:16:50 and read 5821 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
AA has more seats per day between MIA and GRU/GIG than United does between the U.S. and Brazil in total.

Well in every market there is going to be one supreme route over all, to Europe its JFK to LHR. AA has four daily flights to GRU from MIA. IF AA has two DFW flights and two JFK's and soon one LAX that is 9 daily mostly 777 flights to GRU.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-08-11 16:19:07 and read 5815 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 10):
For the sake of clarification.

1) It's ColOmbia, not ColUmbia

2) Everything east of Panama is South America.

3) Colombia is, most definitely, IN South America.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: a380787
Posted 2013-08-11 19:01:03 and read 5558 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Well in every market there is going to be one supreme route over all, to Europe its JFK to LHR. AA has four daily flights to GRU from MIA. IF AA has two DFW flights and two JFK's and soon one LAX that is 9 daily mostly 777 flights to GRU.

And TPAC (exc Hawaii) should be LAX-NRT ?

Then UA must be doing something right since AA flies all 3 and UA only flies 1 of them (with a 787)

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: avek00
Posted 2013-08-11 19:50:02 and read 5465 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
There is no other geographic region of the world for which U.S. traffic is more concentrated at a single U.S. gateway as Latin America and MIA.

Given this strength, it will be interesting to see whether the merged AA makes a play to boost profitability in the larger Latin American markets even further by perhaps using CLT/DFW for connecting traffic while moving MIA-Latin America to virtually 100% O&D. Pre-merger AA made some movement in this direction, but it could potentially be a more drastic shift going forward with the addition of an East Coast powerhouse connector hub.

[Edited 2013-08-11 19:51:05]

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-08-12 04:17:01 and read 4099 times.

UA doesn't "stack up" at all. They suck compared to the competition such as TAM and the other competitors from the U.S. except for US which is the bottom of airlines from the U.S. B6 and even NK (as bad as they are) are still a better option than UA. My opinion.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: VC10er
Posted 2013-08-12 05:01:25 and read 3928 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 23):

I certainly would have WAY more choice on AA vs UA, and would have TAM back (an airline I do not love, but need), but given that I'm locked into UA, honestly, I haven't been impacted negatively by UA's schedule. There are 5 good flights to Brazil. Flight #31/#30 EWR/GRU on a 767-400, and the sUA 777 from IAD, are both great flights. The planes are spotless, the FA's are ALL in a great mood (perhaps the destination   ) except for one Portuguese purser from EWR, she is always unfriendly and sad looking. I've tried hard to get her to smile, I told her one of my best jokes and she looked at me like Ms Spock!

United never was really strong to LATAM, but almost 20 years ago when work took me to Brazil often, I had the fabulous VARIG too in Star. That fabulous-ness on VARIG didn't last that long however  

I'm sure United would add more if they felt they could make $$$, and get the slots. I do think IF United became competitively better they could draw some more fliers, add an EWR to GIG non-stop and a day flight (I won't hold my breath) - but AA is SO strong in Brazil and South America in general, United is well known but not FAMOUS like AA. I do know that when VARIG died, UA did a lot to keep RG Brazilian pax.

AvBr - how could JJ complain now? What is the deal there? Do they have aircraft on order? Any over water expansion plans?

Thanks

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-08-12 06:11:00 and read 3860 times.

As an outsider (I don't ever travel to Latin America), I get the impression that UA's Latin America network is more fragment when compared to DL and even AA. Am I totally wrong here? IIRC, UA serves Latin America from all of its hubs. I don't think that either AA or DL do that.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-08-12 06:24:50 and read 3802 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
IIRC, UA serves Latin America from all of its hubs. I don't think that either AA or DL do that.

Using the most expansive, DOT, definition of Latin America - as basically everything south of the U.S. - then yes, AA, also serves Latin America from every single current (current AA) and future (current US) hub - LAX, PHX, DFW, ORD, JFK, PHL, CLT, MIA. They all have flights to at least Mexico, and in most cases other Latin American/Caribbean countries as well.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2013-08-12 08:49:01 and read 3169 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 20):
2) Everything east of Panama is South America.

3) Colombia is, most definitely, IN South America.

Sorry for the confusion, I worded that funny. I was including Colombia.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2013-08-12 08:59:45 and read 3116 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):

I hope someday MSY can reclaim their "Gateway to the Americas" crown.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-08-12 09:10:07 and read 3055 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
I hope someday MSY can reclaim their "Gateway to the Americas" crown.

Who used that expression?

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-08-12 09:23:02 and read 2952 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 29):
Who used that expression?

Google is your friend  http://www.neworleanspubliclibrary.o...~nopl/exhibits/gateway/gateway.htm

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2013-08-12 09:23:38 and read 2954 times.

Quoting Jonathanxxxx (Reply 5):
From EWR UA only serves three (soon to be two) capitals in South America. Not sure how they rank in Central America and the caribbean but UA doesn't serve most Latin Capitals from one of the most important markets in the US, EWR (basically NYC).

IAH is the keyword here.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: IAHWorldflyer
Posted 2013-08-12 10:25:44 and read 2670 times.

UA has massive connecting opportunities to LatAm from the IAH hub. Most people west of the Mississippi river are better off flying over IAH to get to LatAm than through MIA or ATL. UA, ( and CO before) plays off the far southern location of IAH to serve points south, with service to EZE, GIG, GRU, LIM, UIO, CCS, BOG, PTY, SJO, MGA, SAL, GUA, TGU, MEX, and about 30 other points in Mexico. SFO has the most flights to Asia in the UA network, and EWR and IAD have the most trans-Atlantic service. There's really no point for UA to serve all of LatAM from every hub, just like there's no point for DL to serve all of Europe from SLC. No, their network is not as strong as AA's, but as someone here pointed out, MIA is controlled by AA, and no other city has more O and D traffic south than MIA.
I do hope that with the delivery of more 787 frames in the coming year or two, we will see UA launch a IAH-SCL route. US Customs has built cold storage at IAH, so produce from Chile could be shipped here helping the flight in the cargo compartment.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: a380787
Posted 2013-08-12 12:10:41 and read 2213 times.

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 32):
UA has massive connecting opportunities to LatAm from the IAH hub. Most people west of the Mississippi river are better off flying over IAH to get to LatAm than through MIA or ATL. UA, ( and CO before) plays off the far southern location of IAH to serve points south, with service to EZE, GIG, GRU, LIM, UIO, CCS, BOG, PTY, SJO, MGA, SAL, GUA, TGU, MEX, and about 30 other points in Mexico. SFO has the most flights to Asia in the UA network, and EWR and IAD have the most trans-Atlantic service. There's really no point for UA to serve all of LatAM from every hub, just like there's no point for DL to serve all of Europe from SLC. No, their network is not as strong as AA's, but as someone here pointed out, MIA is controlled by AA, and no other city has more O and D traffic south than MIA.
I do hope that with the delivery of more 787 frames in the coming year or two, we will see UA launch a IAH-SCL route. US Customs has built cold storage at IAH, so produce from Chile could be shipped here helping the flight in the cargo compartment.

maybe we should start a "how does AA stack up in Asia Pacific" and watch the apologizers have a ball

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-08-12 13:41:11 and read 2102 times.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
maybe we should start a "how does AA stack up in Asia Pacific" and watch the apologizers have a ball


Yes, then we can all bash UA some more.

Topic: RE: How Does UA Stack Up To Latin And South America...
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-08-12 14:09:00 and read 2049 times.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
maybe we should start a "how does AA stack up in Asia Pacific" and watch the apologizers have a ball

I don't think the intent of the OP was to compare UA and AA in Latin America. AA's dominace of LatAm is unquestionable. I believe that was was open for discussion was UA vs. DL and I think it became apparent that UA is far stronger in LatAm than a lot of people thought, even more so than DL.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/