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Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: ChiGB1973
Posted 2013-08-14 03:34:10 and read 87200 times.

Reports of it being UPS?

http://www.abc3340.com/story/23132150/large-aircraft-crash-in-tarrant

M

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: ARFFdude
Posted 2013-08-14 03:36:52 and read 87322 times.

Uh oh, hopefully it was something relatively minor and the media is just throwing around the "crash" term.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: AlexA340B777
Posted 2013-08-14 03:40:12 and read 87206 times.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130814-0


first rumors about an A300 of UPS...


Alex

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: pvjin
Posted 2013-08-14 03:40:45 and read 87152 times.

I wonder which plane models UPS operates there? I hope the crew is okay.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-08-14 03:45:48 and read 87050 times.

Found this:

http://www.alabamas13.com/story/23132151/east-birmingham-plane-crash

Can anyone confirm its UPS???

Edit: UPS operates the A300 into BHM and flt 1354 was due to arrive at 0449.

KH

[Edited 2013-08-14 03:48:02]

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: ARFFdude
Posted 2013-08-14 03:46:09 and read 86995 times.

I found this short video posted online. It's from a good distance away, but you can clearly see a large fire.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Grisee08
Posted 2013-08-14 03:47:03 and read 86975 times.

Prayers for those onboard.   

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DL_Mech
Posted 2013-08-14 03:52:04 and read 86813 times.

This is Birmingham, AL. USA and not Birmingham, UK.

Birmingham, AL. TV stations are still reporting a UPS plane.

[Edited 2013-08-14 03:54:18]

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: papertec
Posted 2013-08-14 03:55:16 and read 86580 times.

Always good to remember there are two Birmingham! (The CNN report threw me in this regards, but it *is* breaking news, so not from 2002!)

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-08-14 04:06:28 and read 85878 times.

http://www.alabamas13.com/story/23132151/east-birmingham-plane-crash

location of crash very near airport:

http://goo.gl/maps/Gbd4j

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: YWG747
Posted 2013-08-14 04:09:00 and read 85758 times.

Hope everyone involved is okay

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: YWG747
Posted 2013-08-14 04:10:28 and read 85692 times.

Breaking News @BreakingNews 6m
Update: UPS Flight 1354, an A300 en route from Louisville, Kentucky, to Birmingham, Alabama, has crashed, FAA confirms - @spann, @wapiradio

Breaking News @BreakingNews 4m
More: UPS plane crashed while on approach to Birmingham, Alabama, airport, FAA says - @AP

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: RDUDDJI
Posted 2013-08-14 04:15:59 and read 85382 times.

Not much to say yet, except that our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends. Let's hope somehow that everyone was ok.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2013-08-14 04:26:44 and read 84614 times.

NBC News is reporting that the aircraft involved was an Airbus A330 and that it crashed at approximately 6am local time.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...s-explodes-at-alabama-airport?lite

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 04:27:08 and read 86408 times.

So only UPS flight operating in or out of BHM at the time was UPS1354...

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...4/history/20130814/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM

Hopefully now that the sun is coming out we can start to get the first live shots or photos and see the state of the aircraft and hear of a status on the crew.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: rotating14
Posted 2013-08-14 04:27:57 and read 86220 times.

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2651491

It's a UPS aircraft.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 04:29:21 and read 88297 times.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 24):
NBC News is reporting that the aircraft involved was an Airbus A330 and that it crashed at approximately 6am local time.

Which is pretty good.... considering UPS does not nor has ever operated an A330. Good fact checking yet again by Mainstream media.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-08-14 04:31:43 and read 87841 times.

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 27):
considering UPS does not nor has ever operated an A330. Good fact checking yet again by Mainstream media.

Could be a typo.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Scorpio
Posted 2013-08-14 04:35:01 and read 88119 times.

Picture:

https://twitter.com/Fox6Clare/status/367607557382090752/photo/1

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: na
Posted 2013-08-14 04:36:02 and read 87648 times.

A crash outside the airport lets me fear for the worst. A300 N155UP was operating that flight according to aviation-safety.net.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 24):
NBC News is reporting that the aircraft involved was an Airbus A330 and that it crashed at approximately 6am local time.

NBC = No Bloody Clue?

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 04:36:12 and read 87521 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 28):
Could be a typo.

Possible. CNN got it right at least.

I did just hear at work that the aircraft is about 1/2 mile from the field. That in and of itself doesn't sound very promising...

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: HSVflier
Posted 2013-08-14 04:37:11 and read 87782 times.

Latest video and photos coming out here are showing the cockpit intact and separated from the rest of the wreckage. Looks like it hit a hill upon impact and broke the rear of the airplane off. Still preliminary but pilots are still unaccounted for.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 04:39:14 and read 87130 times.

Interesting to see there is Smoke now being reported in the METAR.

SPECI KBHM 141106Z 00000KT 9SM FEW005 OVC070 23/22 A2999 RMK AO2
FEW005 FU

And here was the METAR at arrival time

KBHM 140953Z 34004KT 10SM FEW011 BKN035 OVC075 23/22 A2997 RMK
AO2 SLP141 T02330222

[Edited 2013-08-14 05:12:10]

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DL_Mech
Posted 2013-08-14 04:41:22 and read 87248 times.

Picture of burning tail section:

http://twitter.com/theglenmoreland/status/367605399651770368/photo/1

[Edited 2013-08-14 04:48:54]

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-08-14 04:43:05 and read 86707 times.

It looks like this aircraft is less than 10 years old. A300 and A310 do not have the most sterling of safety records to be sure. Hope the crew made it out.

tortugamon

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: alberchico
Posted 2013-08-14 04:43:57 and read 87802 times.

still no confirmation of aircraft type by the company ???

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: ImperialEagle
Posted 2013-08-14 04:46:29 and read 87541 times.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 24):
NBC News is reporting that the aircraft involved was an Airbus A330

I'm surprised NBC isn't reporting the aircraft as a Ford Tri-Motor.
Good thing the empty field was there because there isn't much empty around that airport.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-08-14 04:47:10 and read 90799 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 23):
UPS Cargo Plane has crashed near 19th Avenue North and North East Lake Boulevard in an open field that used to be a neighborhood. That field is now owned by the airport.

The location of the crash.

http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=birming...=0,0,10603338330402532200&t=h&z=15

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 34):
Picture of burning tail section:https://twitter.com/theglenmoreland/status/367605399651770368/photo/1

Don't forget to remove the S after http

http://twitter.com/theglenmoreland/status/367605399651770368/photo/1

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 04:49:01 and read 90472 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 38):
The location of the crash.

Here is a better link.

www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=pkwyxz7s3x...nt.pkwyxz7s3xx6_UPS%20Crash%3F____

You can see some of the old roads where the neighborhood use to be.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DL_Mech
Posted 2013-08-14 04:49:35 and read 89955 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 38):
Don't forget to remove the S after http

Thanks, I edited mine.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: oldeuropean
Posted 2013-08-14 04:50:51 and read 89883 times.

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 34):
Picture of burning tail section:

This looks like a 757 to me.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 04:51:05 and read 90877 times.

Acoording to Fox 6 in Birmingham, UPS has confirmed that it was the A300 from SDF that crashed. The two pilots were the only two on board. Unfortunately neither survived.

The crash occurred north of the airport in a field that used to be a neighborhood. It was purchased by the airport authority a few years ago. It is outside the airport fence but on airport property.

There's a live stream that is supposed to be covering a press conference held by the airport authority on myfoxal.com.

[Edited 2013-08-14 04:57:19]

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 04:55:32 and read 90401 times.

Fatalities confirmed. Bodies recovered 100 yards from aircraft.

http://www.abc3340.com/story/23132150/large-aircraft-crash-in-tarrant

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2013-08-14 04:57:55 and read 88976 times.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 37):

I'm surprised NBC isn't reporting the aircraft as a Ford Tri-Motor.

I didn't realize that UPS operates Ford Tri-Motors as well. Good to know...

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: CVG72
Posted 2013-08-14 04:58:36 and read 88771 times.

I'm in Tuscaloosa, a 45 minute drive to the southwest of BHM. Very heavy rain and wind was making its way through the area around the time of the crash. May or may not have anything to do with it.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2013-08-14 05:02:44 and read 88206 times.

It looks as though the aircraft landed short and impacted a steep embankment. I hope this doesn't come out to be another Asiasa-type crash. Of course it's way too early to know what happened but there are striking parallels.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-08-14 05:04:02 and read 88122 times.

avherald with some more information:

http://avherald.com/h?article=466d969f&opt=0

-aircraft N155UP
- flight UPS1354 from Louisville,KY to Birmingham,AL
- came down on approach 1nm from runway 18
- debris trail of half a nm
- location a bit further north than initially reported

http://de.flightaware.com/live/fligh...4/history/20130814/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DUSint
Posted 2013-08-14 05:04:19 and read 87766 times.

It is reported on avherald now:
http://avherald.com/h?article=466d969f&opt=0

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 05:04:36 and read 88472 times.

Another photo from cbs42 of the aircraft/ part of the fuselage

http://2rb79u3xk7ie24aly21l64w1cnu.w...ds/sites/4/2013/08/planecrash3.jpg

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-08-14 05:04:36 and read 87745 times.

Quoting HSVflier (Reply 32):
Latest video and photos coming out here are showing the cockpit intact and separated from the rest of the wreckage.
Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 43):
Fatalities confirmed. Bodies recovered 100 yards from aircraft.

http://www.abc3340.com/story/2313215...rrant

I'm guessing the cockpit isn't as intact as it initially appeared.

All very sad. Prayers for the crew and their families.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: fraspotter
Posted 2013-08-14 05:05:14 and read 87494 times.

Judging by the location of the crash on the map I assume it was on final for runway 18?

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: hammer
Posted 2013-08-14 05:05:33 and read 87767 times.

UPS Airbus A300-600, registration N155UP. 2 confirmed dead.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-08-14 05:10:13 and read 86712 times.

Quoting fraspotter (Reply 51):
I assume it was on final for runway 18?

This is what ASN reports:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130814-0

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 05:11:24 and read 86934 times.

Quoting fraspotter (Reply 51):

Yes. Looks to be on the approach for Runway 18. That runway has a localizer only with no glide slope due to the slope of the terrain north of the airport. The airport is pretty much in a bowl of sorts. Additionally the glideslope on runway 24 has been out of service all month while some work is being done at that end of the runway.

[Edited 2013-08-14 05:12:04]

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-08-14 05:15:20 and read 86747 times.

Here's the playback: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/n155up

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: ImperialEagle
Posted 2013-08-14 05:16:48 and read 85763 times.

From Fox:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/14...lane-crashes-near-alabama-airport/

Just speculation. Another undershoot?
Sad.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-08-14 05:17:57 and read 86288 times.

Quoting xjet (Reply 54):
Yes. Looks to be on the approach for Runway 18. That runway has a localizer only with no glide slope due to the slope of the terrain north of the airport. The airport is pretty much in a bowl of sorts. Additionally the glideslope on runway 24 has been out of service all month while some work is being done at that end of the runway.

Ok, who wants to take bets on how many days it will be before congress starts trying to pass legislation requiring commercial aircraft to use a fully functioning ILS when landing. They're going to point to Asiana and this UPS crash and say they both could have been avoided if there was a functioning glideslope. Just watch.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-08-14 05:24:51 and read 84410 times.

MSNBC is reporting it was a UPS "A330" (which they do not fly) but it was obviously a very large aircraft and appears to have been totally destroyed in a huge fire. They also said there is no word yet on the fate of the two crewmembers. Let's hope and pray they are OK. I am thinking it was an A300--tv people never can get the aircraft type correct.

By odd coincidence there was also a crash in Birmingham, UK at about the same time with the loss of 7 people.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: adam42185
Posted 2013-08-14 05:27:07 and read 84058 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 58):

This wouldn't surprise me, given our governments propensity for knee-jerk reactions. They could also say that you need glide slope information, not necessarily an ILS - you can get the same information on a GPS approach with an FPA. It would be ridiculous legislation regardless and hopefully they don't draw a line between the two dots to come up with such a proposal.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-08-14 05:30:49 and read 83817 times.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRoEPGTCUAEzTJD.jpg:large

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: mika
Posted 2013-08-14 05:31:43 and read 83682 times.

Sad news indeed; my thoughts go out to the families and loved ones of the pilots who appear to have perished. 

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-08-14 05:34:14 and read 82487 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 59):
I am thinking it was an A300--tv people never can get the aircraft type correct.

It was an A300 and regarding tv people, I've already said that maybe it's a typo.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-08-14 05:34:48 and read 82075 times.

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 34):

Picture of burning tail section:

http://twitter.com/theglenmoreland/s...oto/1

Based on the roads shown in that picture (tarrant huffman rd and treadwell rd), the initial impact looks like it could have been nearly a mile short of the runway which is a severe undershoot. At many airports, that area would have likely had more development and been a lot messier...

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2013-08-14 05:36:04 and read 81581 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 58):
Ok, who wants to take bets on how many days it will be before congress starts trying to pass legislation requiring commercial aircraft to use a fully functioning ILS when landing. They're going to point to Asiana and this UPS crash and say they both could have been avoided if there was a functioning glideslope. Just watch.

Coming from people who probably cant tell the nose from the tail but are experts in aviation safety. They shouldn't even poke their nose in this one.

Its unfortunate that the NTSB has to work so much this summer., because anytime they are around something bad had to have occurred.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jetfixr757
Posted 2013-08-14 05:37:30 and read 81372 times.

Prayers to the crew and families suffering the loss....
Jet

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2013-08-14 05:41:51 and read 80965 times.

Quoting adam42185 (Reply 60):
They could also say that you need glide slope information, not necessarily an ILS - you can get the same information on a GPS approach with an FPA.

Yeah, I know that, but I was going more on the fact that both airports, while having functioning GPS approaches, both had inop glideslops for their ILS approaches. And, the media will be hammering that term (ILS) over and over and over again.

Quoting adam42185 (Reply 60):
It would be ridiculous legislation regardless and hopefully they don't draw a line between the two dots to come up with such a proposal.

We can only hope.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-08-14 05:44:39 and read 80333 times.

Very sad day for the affected families of UPS flight. I am holding back on speculation until we know the facts.

KH

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: flyingbird
Posted 2013-08-14 05:45:02 and read 80867 times.

http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-08-14/09:51/12x/33.57,-86.74/12

Last minute of flight. Looks like speed is too fast and a runway overrun?

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-08-14 05:48:09 and read 80177 times.

Quoting flyingbird (Reply 69):
Last minute of flight. Looks like speed is too fast and a runway overrun?

The location is about 1 mile north of the airport..aka short of the runway, so the animation is innacurate. See the picture above in my previous reply and reference google maps.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2013-08-14 05:50:29 and read 80180 times.

Didn't see this view of the scene in the previous replies:

http://ow.ly/i/2SjGu/original


The cockpit **apparently** wasn't so badly damaged, but I guess the fact both crew died is the proof against that.... Sad day for the aviation world.
R.I.P. to the crew.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-08-14 05:51:15 and read 79614 times.

Quoting flyingbird (Reply 69):
Last minute of flight. Looks like speed is too fast and a runway overrun

That's not where it came down.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-08-14 05:51:46 and read 79828 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 59):
By odd coincidence there was also a crash in Birmingham, UK at about the same time with the loss of 7 people.

Eleven years ago...

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SWALUV
Posted 2013-08-14 05:57:07 and read 78882 times.

Is a 3,751 ft. decent rate normal at ~5,000ft?

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: chrisnh
Posted 2013-08-14 05:58:01 and read 78879 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 70):
The location is about 1 mile north of the airport..aka short of the runway, so the animation is innacurate. See the picture above in my previous reply and reference google maps.

I notice tracks on FlightAware seem to go beyond the airport, leaving the impression of an 'overrun' rather than a 'land short' episode. For example, the FedEx 757 going into the Portland, Maine Airport always (or often) appears to be sailing out over the ocean on its way to Portugal before the system figures it all out and makes the track disappear altogether.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 757gb
Posted 2013-08-14 05:58:04 and read 79650 times.

Just freaky... when I went online this morning, don't know why, I changed my cover photo in Facebook. Chose the first one that came to mind:



Then a couple minutes later I saw the news...
Praying for the crew and their families. RIP

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: adam42185
Posted 2013-08-14 05:58:30 and read 78669 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 67):

I see what you were getting at now.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 06:00:23 and read 79391 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 71):
The cockpit **apparently** wasn't so badly damaged, but I guess the fact both crew died is the proof against that.... Sad day for the aviation world.
R.I.P. to the crew.

That photo showing the state of the cockpit doesn't bode with the fact that the bodies were apparently recovered 100 yards from where the fuselage rests. Me thinks for some reason that maybe they both walked out of the aircraft and may have laid down or collapsed at the location where the bodies were found. It just doesn't look like they could have been ejected from that wreckage.... Regardless, in due time, we'll find out.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jns13
Posted 2013-08-14 06:01:59 and read 78376 times.

Quoting CVG72 (Reply 45):

I'm in Tuscaloosa as well, and was going to comment with the same. Weather here starting yesterday evening was iffy at best, and I know around midnight when I went to bed it was really storming pretty hard. Not sure how long that lasted, as it was clear when I woke up around 7am. Kind of tempted to drive out to Birmingham and see what's up, but probably wiser to stay here.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-08-14 06:10:18 and read 77720 times.

Based on this picture, there was likely some sort of cartwheel/flip/rotation....

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/l...ac/APTOPIX_UPS_Plane_Crash.JPE.JPG

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-08-14 06:11:28 and read 77211 times.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/14v4vo8.jpg

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: sshd
Posted 2013-08-14 06:12:42 and read 77051 times.

Some more info at: http://avherald.com/h?article=466d969f&opt=0

At least the METARs at the time weren't too bad:

KBHM 140953Z 34004KT 10SM FEW011 BKN035 OVC075 23/22 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP141 T02330222
KBHM 140904Z 00000KT 10SM SCT010 BKN075 23/22 A2996 RMK AO2

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-08-14 06:19:00 and read 75976 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 81):

In that picture I believe it is looking north (based on the roads shown), which is odd since the cockpit is the most northern piece...

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Chi-town
Posted 2013-08-14 06:26:14 and read 74791 times.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N.../20130814/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM/tracklog

I don't know if this is normal, but looking at the flight data for 5:44am, the aircraft descended from 9,500 to 5,500 in 1 min., with a descent rate of -5,520/min. That seems awfully steep. Trying to catch the glide slope?

I guess I didn't read hard enough but did someone above say the glide slope for Rwy 18 at KBMH was inoperable?

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Northstar80
Posted 2013-08-14 06:28:41 and read 74882 times.

Cockpit looks intact, but the pilots may have died in the cockpit anyways. Sad experience in TK accident in AMS, the cockpit was intact, however with the impact of hitting the ground, nose-wheel protruded inside the cockpit killing all 3 pilots. Similar thing might have happened here too.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: polnebmit
Posted 2013-08-14 06:29:42 and read 74270 times.

Airframe type: Airbus A300F4-622R

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2013-08-14 06:31:29 and read 74866 times.

I'll be very interested to know how the crew was found so far away from the wreckage. The front half of the aircraft appears to be mostly intact, so I don't see how they could have been ejected. It would be quite tragic if they survived the crash only to pass away during egress.  

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-08-14 06:32:10 and read 73868 times.

Quoting Chi-town (Reply 84):
Trying to catch the glide slope?

I guess I didn't read hard enough but did someone above say the glide slope for Rwy 18 at KBMH was inoperable?

There is no ILS at all for Runway 18, so they would not (should not) have been looking for it.... its a basic GPS approach only, and not even any approach lights.

Seeing that the cockpit is the northern-most piece of the wreckage, its a pretty messy undershoot....

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2013-08-14 06:32:27 and read 73466 times.

Quoting Chi-town (Reply 84):
I don't know if this is normal, but looking at the flight data for 5:44am, the aircraft descended from 9,500 to 5,500 in 1 min., with a descent rate of -5,520/min. That seems awfully steep. Trying to catch the glide slope?

Just my personal opinion, but I think the flightaware tracks are absolutely not reliable in this situations. This tracks are just a *wide geographic* reference showing where the aircraft was/is located, not a reliable source to draw a flight profile.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 06:46:36 and read 71551 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 89):
Just my personal opinion, but I think the flightaware tracks are absolutely not reliable in this situations. This tracks are just a *wide geographic* reference showing where the aircraft was/is located, not a reliable source to draw a flight profile.

While the vertical speed is a mathematic computation based on the previous 3-point reference and isn't exactly an accurate measurement (i.e. if a plane went up 1000 feet in 30 seconds, and then down a 1000 feet in 30 seconds, Flightaware would show it's vertical speed as 0 for that duration), the 3-point reference itself above a certain altitude is directly accurate to the flight in most situations so you can take that as accurate. I am not sure what you mean by the tracks are just a 'wide geographic' reference.


While for various reasons the vertical speed could be inaccurate in this case, the fast descent leads me to wonder if there was a fire on board and that the pilots got so focused on that they lost situational awareness.

That and the fact the bodies are so far from the plane is very interesting details to this incident.

RIP to them. Love UPS and it saddens me to have this and UPS 6 in their recent history.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: chrishoesel
Posted 2013-08-14 06:51:46 and read 71302 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 86):
Cockpit looks intact, but the pilots may have died in the cockpit anyways. Sad experience in TK accident in AMS, the cockpit was intact, however with the impact of hitting the ground, nose-wheel protruded inside the cockpit killing all 3 pilots. Similar thing might have happened here too.

The nosegear on the A300-600 is well-behind the flight deck so probably unlikely that this happened.

Condolences to all involved.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 06:52:42 and read 71604 times.

This slideshow makes the cockpit look a lot more banged up than the USA Today photo. But also, the door is missing / open. Not sure I know what that means (could have been opened by the crew, the firefighters, or the impact). But interesting nonetheless.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SWALUV
Posted 2013-08-14 06:56:52 and read 70283 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 89):
Just my personal opinion, but I think the flightaware tracks are absolutely not reliable in this situations. This tracks are just a *wide geographic* reference showing where the aircraft was/is located, not a reliable source to draw a flight profile.

Flightradar24 was reporting the same thing. Plus look at OZ 214, that track was pretty accurate.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2013-08-14 06:58:34 and read 70320 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 92):
This slideshow makes the cockpit look a lot more banged up than the USA Today photo. But also, the door is missing / open. Not sure I know what that means (could have been opened by the crew, the firefighters, or the impact). But interesting nonetheless.

Oh wow... that definitely does look a lot worse from the left side. I can see how there were potentially fatal injuries incurred at the front of the aircraft based on the damage and deformation. This is quite sad.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-08-14 06:58:40 and read 70135 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 71):
The cockpit **apparently** wasn't so badly damaged, but I guess the fact both crew died is the proof against that.... Sad day for the aviation world.
R.I.P. to the crew.

While I agree it was initially encouraging to see the cockpit section mainly intact, looking at the wreckage a little closer it appears there was a significant amount of force on the fuselage that caused it to rip in half as it did. Also, the bottom of the cockpit fuselage is badly damaged, with enough intrusion to lead me to think those in the cockpit would have been seriously hurt, especially on the Captain's side.

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 78):
That photo showing the state of the cockpit doesn't bode with the fact that the bodies were apparently recovered 100 yards from where the fuselage rests. Me thinks for some reason that maybe they both walked out of the aircraft and may have laid down or collapsed at the location where the bodies were found. It just doesn't look like they could have been ejected from that wreckage....

You might be right, but I'm thinking this was just an incorrect report. There does not appear to be anyway the bodies could have been thrown from the cockpit unless they fell out the bottom and the aircraft slided over them (terrible thought) but that seems extremely unlikely. Either way, it is always a sad day when air crew are killed in a tragic accident, and now the families of these two UPS pilots will have to deal with the shock and grief of the sudden loss of a loved one.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 07:03:37 and read 69461 times.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 88):

Correct. No approach lights other than Runway End Identifying Lights and a Precision Approach Path Indicator. There is a localizer only approach with no night minimums below standard VFR. The RNAV (GPS) approach does have published night minimums and the weather was well above those minima. Neither the GPS or LOC procedure are authorized without the PAPI at night. A best I can tell the PAPI was operational at the time of the accident. There is a NOTAM out now for the entire runway and all associated lighting since the accident.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: audioace87
Posted 2013-08-14 07:04:46 and read 69378 times.

I'm surprised they were landing on 18... Having spotted at BHM for a while seems like all I ever saw landing on 18/36 was GA traffic. Otherwise it was landing and taking off from 6/24...

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2013-08-14 07:05:39 and read 69421 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 95):
You might be right, but I'm thinking this was just an incorrect report. There does not appear to be anyway the bodies could have been thrown from the cockpit unless they fell out the bottom and the aircraft slided over them (terrible thought) but that seems extremely unlikely. Either way, it is always a sad day when air crew are killed in a tragic accident, and now the families of these two UPS pilots will have to deal with the shock and grief of the sudden loss of a loved one.

Yes I believe it was as well. I just had someone tell me they read a statement from the Mayor that the bodies were found inside the flightdeck.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: rj777
Posted 2013-08-14 07:07:15 and read 68962 times.

Might I suggest a title change, now that we know who and what type of plane is involved? "UPS A330 Crash in Birmingham, AL"

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 07:13:46 and read 68598 times.

Here is an interesting screen shot that I saw on another forum of what the tracking page looks like for a package that is on this flight:

http://i.imgur.com/bPH6vXP.png

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2013-08-14 07:15:07 and read 68467 times.

2009: A FedEx MD-11 crashes in Japan.

September 2010: UPS flight 6, a 747F, crashes in Dubai.

April 2013: National Airlines 747F crashes in Afghanistan.

Today: An UPS A300 crashes.


Meanwhile, AF447 crashed with scores of dead, and the Asiana 777, which really is a miracle in terms of survivors.

Is this just a fluke, or is there a problem with freight airliner safety?



David

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: bobmuc
Posted 2013-08-14 07:19:39 and read 67462 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 100):
"UPS A330 Crash in Birmingham, AL"

Wrong, it was a A300 not a A330!

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: RL757PVD
Posted 2013-08-14 07:20:15 and read 67425 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 102):
Is this just a fluke, or is there a problem with freight airliner safety?
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 102):
September 2010: UPS flight 6, a 747F, crashes in Dubai.

April 2013: National Airlines 747F crashes in Afghanistan.

Neither one of those was a result of either the aircraft or the pilot's abilities (National Airline was result of loadmaster, pilots were helpless).

As for the MD-11, those may as well have landing gear on top with the rate those things flip.

But No I don't see an air cargo specific problem between the accidents referenced.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 07:23:35 and read 67193 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 102):

I don't want to drift the thread into another topic but....

I'll just say this as a night cargo guy... Fatigue is real. Especially after sitting through the sort at the hub. The fact that the FAA justifies carving cargo pilots out of the new Part 117 rest regulations is appalling. The UPS pilots union was currently suing the FAA over this exemption.

That may or may not play a role here... But that is one consistency amongst cargo guys. Flying tired happens a lot. We are safe professional aviators just like everyone else, but the schedule can be a bit more challenging at times.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-08-14 07:24:38 and read 67036 times.

A bad year for aviation in the U.S.

Also last night a DL flight from GRR-ATL diverted to BNA with a potential fuel link. Both the ABC and NBC affiliates in Nashville reported the airframe was kept in BNA while the pax were put on other flights to ATL.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: chieft
Posted 2013-08-14 07:25:12 and read 67144 times.

On facebook, Airbus just postet:

"We regret to confirm that an A300-600F operated by UPS was involved in an accident in Birmingham, Alabama. The aircraft was operating a scheduled service, Flight 1354. Our sympathy goes to the families, friends and loved ones affected by the accident. A team of specialists from Airbus is being dispatched to Alabama. The investigation remains the entire responsibility of the relevant authorities. At this time no further factual information is available."

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-08-14 07:32:13 and read 66065 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 102):
Is this just a fluke, or is there a problem with freight airliner safety?

you forgot the Asiana 744 F which crashed into the sea off Korea. Both that and the UPS 744 crashed due to cargo fires and here Li Io batteries seem to be the cause in both cases.

The National 744F was a military supplemental flight with military cargo which presumably shifted on take-off.

UPS flights as well as FX and other integartors are scheduled flights and the pilots should be familiar with the airports.

supplemental cargi carriers on unscheduled services (what is called "tramping" in ocean shipping) is more vulnerable to accidents, partly also because they fly older equipment. However none of the flights you quoted falls in that category.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-08-14 07:32:33 and read 65755 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 106):

Stuff like that happens every day. Crashes (thankfully) don't. I wouldn't put them in th same category for now.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-08-14 07:32:44 and read 65969 times.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 58):
Quoting xjet (Reply 54):
Yes. Looks to be on the approach for Runway 18. That runway has a localizer only with no glide slope due to the slope of the terrain north of the airport. The airport is pretty much in a bowl of sorts. Additionally the glideslope on runway 24 has been out of service all month while some work is being done at that end of the runway.

Ok, who wants to take bets on how many days it will be before congress starts trying to pass legislation requiring commercial aircraft to use a fully functioning ILS when landing. They're going to point to Asiana and this UPS crash and say they both could have been avoided if there was a functioning glideslope. Just watch.
Quoting adam42185 (Reply 60):
This wouldn't surprise me, given our governments propensity for knee-jerk reactions. They could also say that you need glide slope information, not necessarily an ILS - you can get the same information on a GPS approach with an FPA. It would be ridiculous legislation regardless and hopefully they don't draw a line between the two dots to come up with such a proposal.

What is the downside of requiring ILS approach if available? Serious question. Reduced throughput through elimination of dual runway ops? Could you require use of ILS approach while maintaining visual separation rules in VFR conditions?

Somebody IM me the pilots names if you see it anywhere. I know some UPS pilots.  

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: as77w
Posted 2013-08-14 07:32:59 and read 66042 times.

AP now reporting that witnesses stated they heard the engines "sputtering" while it was on approach.

http://www.adn.com/2013/08/14/302328...rgo-jet-crashes-in-birmingham.html

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jreuschl
Posted 2013-08-14 07:38:42 and read 65281 times.

Quoting as77w (Reply 111):

AP now reporting that witnesses stated they heard the engines "sputtering" while it was on approach.

http://www.adn.com/2013/08/14/302328....html

Someone else said that they saw it on fire before crashing.

So who knows!  

RIP to the victims and God Bless their families.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2013-08-14 07:41:13 and read 64870 times.

The ABC affiliate is maintaining live coverage here:

Courtesy: WBMA-TV

http://www.abc3340.com/story/21985714/watch-abc-3340-breaking

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 07:43:43 and read 64775 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 110):

In some places an ILS is simply impossible due to the fact that they are line-of-sight radio transmitters. If an ILS is available I would say 99% of the time it is used to backup the visual approach. If there is no ILS most aircraft have the ability to use a computer generated path. The planes I fly were built in the early 80s and we have that capability and use it on every flight.

One of these days ILS systems will be replaced by precision GPS approaches. I think since the Asiana crash there is a large focus on ILS systems. Personally, I see no shortage of navigational aids that are available to pilots flying int he US airspace system. Having said that, I understand the reasons we are discussing it more often.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: TwoSixLeft
Posted 2013-08-14 07:47:04 and read 63920 times.

How devastating for the families of the crew. I hope they are able to find support and some small comfort during this difficult time.

Quoting as77w (Reply 111):
AP now reporting that witnesses stated they heard the engines "sputtering" while it was on approach.

http://www.adn.com/2013/08/14/302328...rgo-jet-crashes-in-birmingham.html

I'm always hesitant to accept the "earwitness" accounts of an accident, especially in the immediate aftermath. It is so easy to make oneself believe that any sound was really a sign of impending disaster. I certainly made a very similar mistake in my pre-avgeek days.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: BWI5OH
Posted 2013-08-14 07:50:30 and read 63397 times.

Tragic indeed. In cases like these, I always think about their families and last co-workers who said "have a safe flight" or "See you next time", but there is no next time. I think about the hurt they must feel. I have a friend who works at UPS/SDF in MX, so I know this has to weigh heavy on his conscience. God bless their souls and may they rest in peace. I hope their family, friends and co-workers can find calm in thier lives one day.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: winstonlegthigh
Posted 2013-08-14 07:51:02 and read 63505 times.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 112):
Someone else said that they saw it on fire before crashing.

That usually means investigators can safely rule out the plane being on fire before crashing.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Avi8r747
Posted 2013-08-14 07:54:34 and read 62902 times.

A sad day for UPSers. May the crew find peace. I am just thankful it wasn't my family member flying.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-08-14 07:54:43 and read 63270 times.

That looks brutal   Not a good summer for the transportation industry at all....prayers to those on board and condolences to their families.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 07:57:51 and read 62831 times.

Quoting as77w (Reply 111):
AP now reporting that witnesses stated they heard the engines "sputtering" while it was on approach.

That is almost always found to be false.

Quoting xjet (Reply 114):

One of these days ILS systems will be replaced by precision GPS approaches. I think since the Asiana crash there is a large focus on ILS systems. Personally, I see no shortage of navigational aids that are available to pilots flying int he US airspace system. Having said that, I understand the reasons we are discussing it more often.

LPV approaches are the best.

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: crazyro
Posted 2013-08-14 07:58:09 and read 63650 times.

Here's a photo James Spann posted on Facebook of the crash site. Photo by @lcomarde

Topic: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-08-14 08:01:26 and read 62636 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 89):
Just my personal opinion, but I think the flightaware tracks are absolutely not reliable in this situations.

   Especially the altitude readouts in a climb or descent.

Quoting enilria (Reply 110):
What is the downside of requiring ILS approach if available? Serious question. Reduced throughput through elimination of dual runway ops?

Reduced flexibility and capacity.

Quoting enilria (Reply 110):
Could you require use of ILS approach while maintaining visual separation rules in VFR conditions?

You could require the crew back up a visual approach with ILS data, and many operators (including mine) do. That at least gives you glidepath information even if you're not flying the ILS groundtrack all the way in (you'll join it eventually, but probably closer in than you would on an actual ILS approach).

I would add, though, that such a requirement has its origins as a means to avoid aligning with the wrong runway at an airport, not as a glidepath aid.

-Mir

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-08-14 08:07:21 and read 61723 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 92):
Flightradar24 was reporting the same thing. Plus look at OZ 214, that track was pretty accurate.

My understanding (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) is that if it was using a mode S transponder and being tracked by someone with a mode S receiver, then altitude and vertical speed info on Flightradar 24 should be very accurate, and "realtime" (I'm sure there's still a tiny delay). This is the same info the air traffic controllers would have, and they have it specifically to help avoid accidents.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 112):
Someone else said that they saw it on fire before crashing.

So who knows!  

Who knows, yeah, but at this point those accounts mean precisely zero. The NTSB interviews a lot of people and only gives credence to eyewitness accounts if there's a pattern, and it agrees with physical evidence. Early eyewitnesses you see on TV almost always report fire and "sputtering" either because their memory's faulty or because they just want to be on TV. More often than not, someone who genuinely believes they saw fire actually saw the airplane's landing lights (at least, that ends up being the only explanation, because usually there was no fire).

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jreuschl
Posted 2013-08-14 08:11:22 and read 61283 times.

What kind of flight schedules do UPS pilots have? Do they fly the previous evening into SDF, hang around, then fly again to another airport?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2013-08-14 08:11:53 and read 61186 times.

Hope this was not the Onboard carried Cargo causing it.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: tp1040
Posted 2013-08-14 08:14:45 and read 60969 times.

Terrible event for the people involved. The photos show tremendous damage to the cockpit, even though it "appears" intact.

They also show a lot of impact damage to power lines and trees. The elevation seems to be much lower and well short of the hill that the fuselage is resting.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: crazyro
Posted 2013-08-14 08:18:46 and read 61090 times.

More pics and updates: http://blog.al.com/wire/2013/08/videos_of_birmingham_plane_cra.html

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: comorin
Posted 2013-08-14 08:19:39 and read 60440 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 114):
Hope this was not the Onboard carried Cargo causing it.

Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-08-14 08:24:11 and read 60582 times.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 114):
The elevation seems to be much lower and well short of the hill that the fuselage is resting.

Picture 7 of this slideshow shows how low the aircraft must have been when you see the impact.

http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=1

[Edited 2013-08-14 08:26:20]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Dispatcher
Posted 2013-08-14 08:24:14 and read 60064 times.

Wow, these guys were clipping power lines almost a mile from the approach end of the runway.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: olliejolly
Posted 2013-08-14 08:24:23 and read 59826 times.

Very sad to hear this...
Those images look pretty awful.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: tp1040
Posted 2013-08-14 08:27:13 and read 59771 times.

Looking at a Google image of BHM, 18 looks to be rarely used. Maybe it is used more for GA.

Could the pilots had a situation where they had to use 18? Was 6/24 closed?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-08-14 08:30:18 and read 59383 times.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 112):
What kind of flight schedules do UPS pilots have? Do they fly the previous evening into SDF, hang around, then fly again to another airport?

According to flightaware, the aircraft originated in Mexico City and landed at SDF a little after 1 a.m. I would imagine this particular crew either flew in from a different outstation ahead of the accident flight or started their day with the BHM flight. Since SDF is the only pilot base for the A306, if they didn't start at an outstation they would have began their trip in Louisville at some point during the night prior to the accident flight.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-08-14 08:45:43 and read 57888 times.

UPS A-306F, N155UP.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/14...r-alabama-airport/?test=latestnews

Unfortunately both pilots did not survive. Since the nose and forward fuselage broke off and skidded away from the main wreckage, and was not on fire, I can only assume they died from impact injuries, or they were dead before the crash.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: frmrCapCadet
Posted 2013-08-14 08:53:10 and read 57123 times.

Eye witness reports, particularly when properly interpreted by expert investigators have been and are invaluable. All the good witness needs do is remember what they saw, and leave interpretations to investigators and a-netters.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 08:55:55 and read 57148 times.

A300F4-622R, CN 851, PW4158s. Barely 10 years old.
According to flightaware it dropped from 30,000' in just over 15 minutes. Quite varied too. At one point was doing 2,000'-3,000' Vertical Feet per minute, by the end only 600.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 121):
if they didn't start at an outstation they would have began their trip in Louisville at some point during the night prior to the accident flight.

Would MEX-SDF-BHM be too long on the clock time? I know SDF-BHM is pretty short but what about MEX-SDF?

Quoting comorin (Reply 116):
Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing./quote]
They might have. Anyone got the transcripts?

[quote=tp1040,reply=120]Could the pilots had a situation where they had to use 18? Was 6/24 closed?

It looks like they were making about 175 degrees heading until right near the end when they turned to around 235. Trying to avoid stuff on the ground or a last ditch attempt to put it on 24? Or out of control?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: mcoatc
Posted 2013-08-14 08:59:10 and read 56362 times.

Firstly, my condolences to the crew and their families. As others have already said, this has not been a great run for commercial aviation over the last year or so, and today things have obviously gotten worse.

My question here is in relation to runway in use. I would like to know why UPS was landing on 7100ft non-precision runway that pointed away from their parking facilities, in lieu of a 12,000ft precision runway that, with a long landing roll, would have practically parked the aircraft at their front door.

Clearly, 18 would not have been requested by the crew, and the METAR wind at the time certainly did not seem to require it. Was 24 undergoing maintenance? Was the weather some have speculated in the area a factor?

The reason that I ask is because if 6/24 was closed on short notice, unexpectedly (FOD found, asphalt failure), you may have a situation where an otherwise stellar crew suddenly had an approach that no one had planned on shooting. While that in and of itself should not be deadly, add fatigue to the mix and it's possible.....possible.....something was not programmed/set up/briefed properly and we are looking at the resulting undershoot.

And, it may have absolutely nothing to do with this at all. Anyone from BHM or with local knowledge that can speculate?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2013-08-14 09:04:09 and read 55939 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 124):
what about MEX-SDF?

3 hrs 32 mins - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...1/history/20130814/0109Z/MMMX/KSDF

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-08-14 09:30:13 and read 53966 times.

Just saw someone on TV (possibly the mayor of whatever town this happened in?) saying that initially they thought the debris field was contained but that now they have reports of damage and debris to several houses nearby. Anyone have more info on that yet? I'm curious if this was debris that was thrown from the wreckage or if something detached from the plane before the crash.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 09:35:57 and read 53002 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 127):
Anyone have more info on that yet? I'm curious if this was debris that was thrown from the wreckage or if something detached from the plane before the crash.

Reports are saying debris was spread over a half-mile away from the crash site through residential areas in Birmingham.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 126):
3 hrs 32 mins

Thanks! So though its unlikely the crew did MEX-SDF-BHM, they could've. (Or a crew could've done SDF-MEX-SDF, though that might be getting tight if in-air delays.)

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 09:36:11 and read 52717 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 116):
Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing.

I wonder about this, too. I don't see any posts above about LiveATC.net. Has anyone had the chance to find and listen to the crew's radio contact with the ground? I'm deaf...hence my inquiry. Thanks in advance.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-08-14 09:42:48 and read 52263 times.

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 125):
I would like to know why UPS was landing on 7100ft non-precision runway that pointed away from their parking facilities, in lieu of a 12,000ft precision runway that, with a long landing roll, would have practically parked the aircraft at their front door.

The route of flight was basically due south from SDF (so almost directly aligned with the runway). Also, there was little to no wind to speak of at the time of landing, or any reason to even conduct an instrument approach. The crew should have been able to see the runway coming out of 7500 feet (METAR said OVC075), with minimal cloud interference beyond that (also said SCT010). So there was no technical need to fly a precision approach.

Now, talk to a flight instructor or someone else doing primary training, or take a human factors class, and they'd probably tell you that flying in the middle of the night during prime fatigue hours might necesitate a few additional safety considerations to ensure safe completion of the flight, including using a precision approach.

However, these guys were pros, and flying (and landing) in the middle of the night is their bread and butter. I'm not going to second guess their decision to take the straight in visual or LOC approach to 18.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 09:45:09 and read 51867 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 129):
I don't see any posts above about LiveATC.net

BHM isn't up on liveATC as far as I can tell and Atlanta Center has been down for a month. Checking Memphis and Indy...

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 09:48:51 and read 51492 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 111):

My understanding (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) is that if it was using a mode S transponder and being tracked by someone with a mode S receiver, then altitude and vertical speed info on Flightradar 24 should be very accurate, and "realtime" (I'm sure there's still a tiny delay). This is the same info the air traffic controllers would have, and they have it specifically to help avoid accidents.

That is correct Flightradar uses ADS-B derived data for quite a few of the airplanes. ADS-B gets position information from the GPS and is very accurate.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-08-14 09:49:54 and read 51449 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 128):
Reports are saying debris was spread over a half-mile away from the crash site through residential areas in Birmingham.

But "away" in which direction? Was it debris scattered from the impact or was it debris falling from the plane as it descended? That's what I don't have a sense of.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 09:50:57 and read 51326 times.

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 125):

These are all great questions. There was work going on north of runway that has had the glideslope on runway 24 out of service since the 2nd of August. I think it is some trenching being done. It's possible that 24 was unavailable at the time, although I didn't see a NOTAM. That said, short term runway occupation by men and equipment don't always require a NOTAM if it will only make the runway unavailable short term.

There was weather to the west, but I don't think it was close enough to have affected the arrival. I hate to speculate but the only logical thought I have had is that the crew needed the plane on the ground quickly for some reason....

[Edited 2013-08-14 09:53:04]

[Edited 2013-08-14 09:57:40]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 09:52:26 and read 51116 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 133):
But "away" in which direction? Was it debris scattered from the impact or was it debris falling from the plane as it descended? That's what I don't have a sense of.

I imagine some from the clipping of trees and power lines but I don't know if some else fell.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: CosmicCruiser
Posted 2013-08-14 09:54:47 and read 50969 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 90):
Is this just a fluke, or is there a problem with freight airliner safety?

before you say more perhaps you might investigate the causes and see what the crew may have been up against.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 4holer
Posted 2013-08-14 09:57:04 and read 50875 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 127):
Just saw someone on TV (possibly the mayor of whatever town this happened in?) saying that initially they thought the debris field was contained but that now they have reports of damage and debris to several houses nearby. Anyone have more info on that yet? I'm curious if this was debris that was thrown from the wreckage or if something detached from the plane before the crash.

Well there is a house very close to slide 11 of this slideshow of trees clipped:
http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=11
(from)
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 117):
http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=1

Which is located here on Google, which you can navigate up and around from... http://maps.google.com/maps?q=tarran...f16rvxyA&cbp=12,300.27,,0,2.13



[Edited 2013-08-14 10:00:02]

[Edited 2013-08-14 10:02:20]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: AA777
Posted 2013-08-14 09:57:35 and read 50843 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 122):
I can only assume they died from impact injuries, or they were dead before the crash.

RIP to the crew.

...The fuselage being intact the way it is wouldnt support, to me, the idea of a nose-first impact due to pilots being incapacitated... though I suppose the plane could have hit belly first like AF447 did.

Very sad. I hope they find answers soon.

-AA777

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 09:59:00 and read 50537 times.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 136):

Yup... How many non-normal checklists end with "Land at the nearest suitable airport"?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 10:00:13 and read 50377 times.

Quoting comorin (Reply 116):
Would the crew not have Communicated that (or any other distress) to ATC prior to Landing.

I don't know they didn't. There isn't a ATC release of information that I know of.

My theory is still that there was a fire on board or some other mechanical failure they were working with. A 25,000 foot drop in 12 minutes is a very fast descent and I trust the FlightAware data enough on that to think that is significant.

Also, with winds at 340, I doubt they would be landing 18. And if winds were so minimal that it didn't matter which runway, they probably would have chosen 24 - like they did the day before.

Something was wrong, really wrong.

[Edited 2013-08-14 10:01:46]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2013-08-14 10:06:42 and read 49794 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 140):
Also, with winds at 340, I doubt they would be landing 18. And if winds were so minimal that it didn't matter which runway, they probably would have chosen 24 - like they did the day before.

If it's within limits and it would save you time, why not take 18 when coming from the north, rather than getting vectored around for 24?

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 10:08:55 and read 49734 times.

This one is saying there was no distress call from the crew:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...ane-crash-20130814,0,7674571.story

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 140):
Also, with winds at 340, I doubt they would be landing 18.

Yes, but 4 kts. 4 kts of tailwinds on a 7,100' rwy, I would think, is easy to do with an A300. Still:

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 125):
My question here is in relation to runway in use. I would like to know why UPS was landing on 7100ft non-precision runway that pointed away from their parking facilities, in lieu of a 12,000ft precision runway that, with a long landing roll, would have practically parked the aircraft at their front door.

So...I'm inclined to agree with suseJ772 in speculating that something was wrong.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 10:14:13 and read 49226 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 141):
If it's within limits and it would save you time, why not take 18 when coming from the north, rather than getting vectored around for 24?


Because...

  1. The vector is very minimal (see: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U.../history/20130813/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM)
  2. Many airports have a preferred runway and with an airport like BHM it is usually the longest one
  3. Many airlines have an SOP to use the longest available runway if conditions allow
  4. Many airlines have an SOP to use a runway with ILS if available (6/24 does have it, 18/36 does not) if conditions allow
  5. And in this case in particular, the cargo ramp is at the end of 24 / beginning of 6 and the taxi time alone from landing on 18 to get to the cargo ramp would be a lot less efficient than just vectoring for 24

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 10:17:40 and read 49029 times.

Quoting audioace87 (Reply 86):
I'm surprised they were landing on 18... Having spotted at BHM for a while seems like all I ever saw landing on 18/36 was GA traffic. Otherwise it was landing and taking off from 6/24...
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
Many airports have a preferred runway and with an airport like BHM it is usually the longest one
Many airlines have an SOP to use the longest available runway if conditions allow
Many airlines have an SOP to use a runway with ILS if available (6/24 does have it, 18/36 does not) if conditions allow
And in this case in particular, the cargo ramp is at the end of 24 / beginning of 6 and the taxi time alone from landing on 18 to get to the cargo ramp would be a lot less efficient than just vectoring for 24

Thanks, folks. Starting to look (to me, anyway) like something was indeed wrong.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2013-08-14 10:18:50 and read 48864 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
Because...
The vector is very minimal (see: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U.../history/20130813/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM)
Many airports have a preferred runway and with an airport like BHM it is usually the longest one
Many airlines have an SOP to use the longest available runway if conditions allow
Many airlines have an SOP to use a runway with ILS if available (6/24 does have it, 18/36 does not) if conditions allow
And in this case in particular, the cargo ramp is at the end of 24 / beginning of 6 and the taxi time alone from landing on 18 to get to the cargo ramp would be a lot less efficient than just vectoring for 24

I was just throwing out a suggestion as to why they used 18, not saying why they did. Unless you're a UPS pilot, I doubt you can answer if most of what you allege is true for this operation.

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: enilria
Posted 2013-08-14 10:22:08 and read 48546 times.

Quoting xjet (Reply 102):
In some places an ILS is simply impossible due to the fact that they are line-of-sight radio transmitters. If an ILS is available I would say 99% of the time it is used to backup the visual approach. If there is no ILS most aircraft have the ability to use a computer generated path. The planes I fly were built in the early 80s and we have that capability and use it on every flight.
Quoting Mir (Reply 110):
Quoting enilria (Reply 110):
Could you require use of ILS approach while maintaining visual separation rules in VFR conditions?

You could require the crew back up a visual approach with ILS data, and many operators (including mine) do. That at least gives you glidepath information even if you're not flying the ILS groundtrack all the way in (you'll join it eventually, but probably closer in than you would on an actual ILS approach).

I would add, though, that such a requirement has its origins as a means to avoid aligning with the wrong runway at an airport, not as a glidepath aid.

So, I'll restate my question. What is so bad about what Mir's company is doing except require it? You require pilots use a precision approach solution, if available, in VFR conditions while maintaining visual separation rules?

Interesting bit of trivia, but that doesn't make it a bad idea does it?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 10:25:00 and read 48317 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 142):
This one is saying there was no distress call from the crew:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...story

I'll hold off on that since the quote is attributed to a spokesman for the mayor. If the NTSB were saying that, I might take it a little more seriously.

Also, it says no distress call was made to the tower, not to Atlanta Center. Yes, I usually know Departure/Arrival/Center would then coordinate with Tower, but there could have been some miscommunication, or someone wasn't at there post when they should have been, etc...

Also, if the issue were more mechanical, there could have been something preventing the call, or they were on the wrong frequency (which was an issue with UPS 6 because of the smoke). So I don't think the "no-call" at this time detracts too much from my current theory, but it is interesting.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 10:27:19 and read 48213 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 145):
I was just throwing out a suggestion as to why they used 18, not saying why they did. Unless you're a UPS pilot, I doubt you can answer if most of what you allege is true for this operation.

Three out of my five reasons have nothing to do with UPS. That being said, I wasn't saying your opinion wasn't valid, just explaining why I thought it was unusual. Particularly reason #5 would go with your logic (of saving time) to use 24 - regardless of UPS SOP.

[Edited 2013-08-14 10:28:27]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2013-08-14 10:28:45 and read 48152 times.

To

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 136):

and others:

I just found it a strange coincident that in the past four years, six widebodies have crashed - for different reasons, of course. Somehow this hasn't happened in the years before.

I know that the reasons for the crashes are different, and that three of them can be attributed to pilot error - with a higher or lower certainty.


David

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 10:28:51 and read 48177 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 147):
So I don't think the "no-call" at this time detracts too much from my current theory, but it is interesting.

I agree it is quite interesting. I would like to hear Atlanta Center/Approach ATC records during the steep descent.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 10:29:49 and read 48144 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 146):

I see nothing wrong with it at all. My company requires its use if available, but also encourages us to practice without aids if the correct weather and air traffic situation permit. I thought you were speaking to a requirement from the government to have an ILS on all runways served by commercial operators. Looking back at your original post, I see that may have read too much into it. My apologies. I certainly see no reason to argue against a company SOP encouraging the use of precision approaches if available.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 10:31:35 and read 48333 times.

Found SDF takeoff audio records...sounds like a female voice in the cockpit. 35R. 8,580'.

[Edited 2013-08-14 10:33:58]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: tp1040
Posted 2013-08-14 10:34:32 and read 47803 times.

How often does BHM use 18/36?

Looking at google, almost never.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-08-14 10:35:33 and read 47887 times.

Quoting TwoSixLeft (Reply 103):
I'm always hesitant to accept the "earwitness" accounts of an accident, especially in the immediate aftermath. It is so easy to make oneself believe that any sound was really a sign of impending disaster.

Very true. and not only sounds but sights as well. A long time ago, when driving, I hit a motorcyclist (thankfully he survived) at a cross junction at not more than 40mph. The investigating officer later told me that an eyewitness swore that he saw the rider being thrown up 10 feet into the air. The officer commented that he immediately dismissed the guy's testimony as they is no way that could happen.

Quoting BWI5OH (Reply 104):
In cases like these, I always think about their families and last co-workers who said "have a safe flight" or "See you next time", but there is no next time. I think about the hurt they must feel.

In my airforce days as a groundcrew on the Skyhawks, I had to bear with that sense of loss of someone I know the many times we lost a fighter pilot. Worse when on a couple occasions, I was the one who strapped the pilot into his ejection seat and then waved him off as he departed the apron...and then having to see him off on his final journey to the afterworld a few days later.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: czbbflier
Posted 2013-08-14 10:46:33 and read 47079 times.

My best wishes to the crew's families.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 81):

It feels so macabre to be commenting this way but here's my 2c worth regarding the reports of the crew being found about 100 yards from the "crash site". It appears that the cockpit is about 100 yards away. Perhaps when the reports (the same reports that also said that it was an A330) were saying that the "crew were found 100 yards in the field from the crash site"- they left out the detail that the forward fuselage was also 100 yards from the crash site and that they just happened to be in the cockpit, still strapped into their seats.


Looking at a closeup of this shot, it just seems the aircraft flew right into the hillside. The tail is the brown protrusion in the smoke. The white foam is the outline of the right wing. The forward 1/3 of the fuselage broke away and ploughed through the dirt. Eventually the nose dug in enough to spin the entire section around to the left.

Quoting as77w (Reply 99):
AP now reporting that witnesses stated they heard the engines "sputtering" while it was on approach.

What does a jet turbofan sound like when it "sputters"? It seems to me the closest thing to "sputtering" is a stall when caused by a bird. Videos of the Thomson flight at seen here.

Would a bird strike be so critical on landing when engines are spooling down rather than at 100% power on take off?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: PITrules
Posted 2013-08-14 10:49:17 and read 46712 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 90):

Is this just a fluke, or is there a problem with freight airliner safety?

I'm feeling there is, at least from a regulatory standpoint. Unlike passenger aircraft, there is no requirement for cargo fire suppression. Unlike passenger carriers, cargo pilots will not get the benefit of the new duty/rest regulations (which UPS and the cargo industry successfully lobbied against). Therefore there's two levels of safety between passenger and cargo ops and it's BS.

[Edited 2013-08-14 11:16:43]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Zed
Posted 2013-08-14 10:55:24 and read 46733 times.

One crewmember identified.

http://www.wave3.com/story/23136220/...-of-jack-daniels-distillery-family

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: ual777
Posted 2013-08-14 10:56:58 and read 46040 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 146):

Because there is nothing wrong with doing a visual. I back it up with an RNAV, ILS, or VOR approach daily.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 153):

18 is used all the time. However the vast majority of the jet traffic lands on 6/24. 24s ILS is OTS, and if there is a greater than 10 it. Tailwind to 6, you are forced onto 18. Runway 6 is hands down the most often used approach followed by 24.

In the Jepp plates BHM is listed as a special airport because there are hills around the airport, and a mountain ridge with VERY large television antennas to the southeast.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 11:01:47 and read 46044 times.

Quoting Zed (Reply 157):

Shanda Fanning. Most likely the female voice heard on the SDF ATC recording.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 155):
Would a bird strike be so critical on landing when engines are spooling down rather than at 100% power on take off?

Certainly shouldn't be. Something seemed to happen up at cruise or on descent.
I doubt people heard a pair of PW4000s sputtering. Possible. It might've been birds or at least bird influenced. Any idea what the vertical FPM is on a gliding powerless A300?

[Edited 2013-08-14 11:04:49]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: MtnWest1979
Posted 2013-08-14 11:03:33 and read 45574 times.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 155):
What does a jet turbofan sound like when it "sputters"? It seems to me the closest thing to "sputtering" is a stall when caused by a bird. Videos of the Thomson flight at seen here.

Would a bird strike be so critical on landing when engines are spooling down rather than at 100% power on take off?

My thoughts exactly. I think that birds are responsible and coming at in darkness, the crew would have no idea any were there. Hence sputtering and loss of flying ability of a/c.

Anyway, sad to see another aviation accident with loss of life.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Navigator
Posted 2013-08-14 11:05:42 and read 45306 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 141):
If it's within limits and it would save you time, why not take 18 when coming from the north, rather than getting vectored around for 24?


Because...

The vector is very minimal (see: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U.../history/20130813/0849Z/KSDF/KBHM)
Many airports have a preferred runway and with an airport like BHM it is usually the longest one
Many airlines have an SOP to use the longest available runway if conditions allow
Many airlines have an SOP to use a runway with ILS if available (6/24 does have it, 18/36 does not) if conditions allow
And in this case in particular, the cargo ramp is at the end of 24 / beginning of 6 and the taxi time alone from landing on 18 to get to the cargo ramp would be a lot less efficient than just vectoring for 24

Many airports have runways in use at night that may seem strange. Most of the time it is for noise abatement in early mornings or at night.

This was an approach without glide slope. One thought is that they simply flew too low and came down short of the runway. Tiredness may have contributed. It could have similarities with the Asiana accident in that instrument monitoring (altitude monitoring) could be a factor.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: CHS787
Posted 2013-08-14 11:14:19 and read 44403 times.

Birds typically don't fly at night... Doubt that is your culprit, especially in the clouds on an overcast night in light rain..

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DashTrash
Posted 2013-08-14 11:18:40 and read 44094 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 140):
My theory is still that there was a fire on board or some other mechanical failure they were working with. A 25,000 foot drop in 12 minutes is a very fast descent and I trust the FlightAware data enough on that to think that is significant.
Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 150):
I agree it is quite interesting. I would like to hear Atlanta Center/Approach ATC records during the steep descent.

That's nothing close to being a steep descent. 2000-2500 fpm is fairly common, if not on the low side.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 11:22:19 and read 43800 times.

If Airnav is to be trusted then the designated weight-bearing capacity for 18/36 double tandem is 240k lbs. The A306F is, IIRC, around 180,000 empty. Also, some of the taxiways around 18/36 have a max weight of 100k lbs. Interesting.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 162):
That's nothing close to being a steep descent. 2000-2500 fpm is fairly common, if not on the low side

At one point they hit 3400.
Its not unheard of, but descending that fast then having to level off (or only 600) suddenly at the end (and turning) was interesting.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: rj777
Posted 2013-08-14 11:23:03 and read 43853 times.

Just out of curiosity, when the NTSB heads to an accident site..... do they take a regularly scheduled commercial flight? Or do they take a private jet? I would think that since they need to get out there relatively quickly, they'd take a private flight.

[Edited 2013-08-14 11:26:44]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 11:24:59 and read 43562 times.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 162):

That's nothing close to being a steep descent. 2000-2500 fpm is fairly common, if not on the low side.

Not to mention flight aware data sucks.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 4holer
Posted 2013-08-14 11:28:12 and read 43399 times.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 154):
What does a jet turbofan sound like when it "sputters"? It seems to me the closest thing to "sputtering" is a stall when caused by a bird. Videos of the Thomson flight at seen here

I wonder if the sputtering was the sound of the brush with the trees, and perhaps stalling from wood ingestion, on what looks like a hilltop here http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=11 and several seconds of flight over the valley, again with possible comprssor stalls (and maybe background popping from the power lines severed) until it contacted the next hillside. View here from tree contact spot: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=tarran...8wFcgGw&cbp=12,182.74,,0,5.28&z=16

Just a theory anyway...

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: meister808
Posted 2013-08-14 11:33:23 and read 43201 times.

Quoting CHS787 (Reply 161):
Birds typically don't fly at night... Doubt that is your culprit, especially in the clouds on an overcast night in light rain..

The hour before and after sunrise is the high point of bird activity for the day in most places (barring things like migratory patterns, etc). Using Flightaware as a rough estimate, the accident occurred at approximately 0450. Morning civil twilight at BHM this morning was 0543 and sunrise was 0609. I certainly wouldn't rule out bird activity at this time of the morning.

Meister  

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-08-14 11:45:21 and read 43039 times.

The NTSB has released some better quality pictures.


NTSB Investigators on scene UPS1354 by NTSBgov, on Flickr


UPS1354 by NTSBgov, on Flickr


NTSB Investigators on scene UPS1354 by NTSBgov, on Flickr

[Edited 2013-08-14 11:53:36]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 11:52:52 and read 41590 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 164):
Just out of curiosity, when the NTSB heads to an accident site..... do they take a regularly scheduled commercial flight? Or do they take a private jet? I would think that since they need to get out there relatively quickly, they'd take a private flight.

Depends but they have both options available to them as needed. Sometimes some of the team will fly out on a private aircraft and the rest on a commercial flight.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/process.html

[Edited 2013-08-14 11:57:34]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 12:24:30 and read 39149 times.

All this talk centered around what is perceived as an unusual descent rate had me wondering if there were schedule concerns going through the minds of the pilots which may have led up to what I think is being suggested as an 'unstable approach' to a runway not normally supporting A306 operations. Now, I don't know enough about the traffic flow at BHM to offer an opinion here but what I found interesting is the aircraft was in no real hurry to depart as it wasn't to leave Birmingham till that evening around 2215 as UPS1353. Am I missing something here?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Navigator
Posted 2013-08-14 12:27:58 and read 39119 times.

This accident could have striking similarities with a Koreanair 747 accident at Guam. That plane flew into a hill short of the airport when the GS was U/S.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: audioace87
Posted 2013-08-14 12:33:32 and read 38541 times.

Being an avid spotter/birdnerd/flight simmer/a.net reader when I lived in Birmingham I used resources such as friends who had access to the Reserve base to watch departures/arrivals at BHM.

18/36 is EXTREMELY uncommon to see any jet powered aircraft taking off and landing the approach to 18 was scary to watch when even a 172 was taking it. 36 for an A300 would be almost be impossible. Also the taxi path to and from 18/36 is long and winding, even for GA aircraft who are parked anywhere but off of 18/36 due ot the reserve base and restricted accesss taxi-ways.

I've flown into and out of birmingham in all the different weather the city has to offer and have only landed on 24 twice, taken off of 24 once. All other (>10 flights) have landed and taken off of 6.

Being familar enough with the area to recognize the roads in pictures, something was very not right here....

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: awthompson
Posted 2013-08-14 12:33:50 and read 38697 times.

Looking at all of the photos thus far, particularly those at reply 168, this accident was completely unsurvivable. We are dealing here with an impact, or series of impacts, way beyond what the human body can handle. The engine shot really brought this home to me. An aircraft cockpit is a rather unforgiving place to be during such an event with really nothing to cushion the human body.

Interestingly, those UPS A306Fs used to cross the Atlantic to Europe. I saw N141UP and N158UP over Ireland as recent as 2008 both en route CGN-SDF.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: flyBTV
Posted 2013-08-14 12:35:05 and read 38517 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 164):

Just out of curiosity, when the NTSB heads to an accident site..... do they take a regularly scheduled commercial flight? Or do they take a private jet? I would think that since they need to get out there relatively quickly, they'd take a private flight.

They do fly privately, at least occasionally:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ntsb/8752223576/

The above photo was from the train derailment/collision investigation about a month ago in Fairfield, CT.

Here is a shot from the interior of the aircraft:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ntsb/8497827675/

[Edited 2013-08-14 12:38:15]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Zed
Posted 2013-08-14 12:37:22 and read 38167 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 170):

If there was time pressure it would have been to keep the waiting UPS ground vehicles and package delivery times on schedule. But this flight was only about 15min off schedule and pretty close to its average arrival time at KBHM.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jfritz
Posted 2013-08-14 12:41:49 and read 37940 times.

Would any expirienced pilots, CFI's like to entertain the idea of the Black Hole Effect (long visual approach at night)? Its hardly been discussed but pilot error could be the cause. Forget NAV aids, bird strikes etc. We just wached a fully functioning 777 a month ago land short on a daytime visual approach so certainly it can happen here.

My condolences to the crew, their family and to UPS.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Grisee08
Posted 2013-08-14 12:44:27 and read 37908 times.

Not to sound grim, but I look forward to the preliminary NTSB report. I know crashes happen, but things like this just aren't supposed to happen anymore .

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 12:44:43 and read 37642 times.

Quoting flyBTV (Reply 174):
Here is a shot from the interior of the aircraft:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ntsb/84...7675/

Not the same aircraft

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: moose135
Posted 2013-08-14 12:50:21 and read 37113 times.

NTSB (per their Twitter feed) will hold a press briefing today at 4pm CDT.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: DashTrash
Posted 2013-08-14 12:53:46 and read 36914 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 163):
At one point they hit 3400.

Still not unheard of or out of the ordinary.

Like the other poster said as well, FlightAware data isn't the best.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 12:54:49 and read 36796 times.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 180):
Like the other poster said as well, FlightAware data isn't the best.

True true.
Is it normal to vary between 1500-3500 then suddenly flatten out to 600?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 12:56:30 and read 36728 times.

Quoting Zed (Reply 175):
If there was time pressure it would have been to keep the waiting UPS ground vehicles and package delivery times on schedule. But this flight was only about 15min off schedule and pretty close to its average arrival time at KBHM.

Yes - not that far outside it's normal arrival window. I also found it somewhat surprising that the pilot's chose an approach to a runway without an Approach Lighting System - REIL and PAPI lights not withstanding.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: pilotaydin
Posted 2013-08-14 13:00:30 and read 36448 times.

I don't have too much time I have to head to a flight but I can write down some thoughts I have had after viewing some photos. As a crash investigator I can say that the energy of the aircraft was much lower than most accidents we find around this distance from the airport. It seems so similar in shape as TK 1951 that we worked on several years ago now. The aircraft is 0.5 miles short of the runway and some parts of it are intact. I would not comment on the cockpit being intact. TK 1951 cockpit was virtually intact and all three crew perished on impact....

Possible causes of being short of the runway from my point of view

1 : Dual engine flameout
2 : Non precision approach combined with fatigue to create some sort of illusion or misidentification of land/runway
3: Stall at low altitude
4: Late go around attempt or mismanaged go around causing for CFIT (Afriqiah airways A330 type)

Would love to discuss this accident with all you respectful and non flamers
take care

A

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-08-14 13:08:14 and read 35787 times.

An interesting comparison would be with that of the Fedex 727 crash at TLH some years back. Very similar situations and not dissimilar results. I'm not suggesting any specific cause at this point but if your looking for some insight into what the arrival situation in the eyes of the crew last night the Fedex TLH crash report gives some interesting insight.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-08-14 13:11:12 and read 35579 times.

4000-6000 fpm descents are common idle path descents. Flightaware is quite unreliable with specific data. Ive found it does give an overall good picture of track and altitude and speed, but individual frames rare match actual performance.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: airplanedaj
Posted 2013-08-14 13:18:06 and read 35011 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 170):
the aircraft was in no real hurry to depart as it wasn't to leave Birmingham till that evening around 2215 as UPS1353. Am I missing something here?

The plane may not have been in a hurry, but the packages on board probably were. UPS probably wants to get those packages to people's (and business') doorstep ASAP.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 13:18:08 and read 34980 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 185):
4000-6000 fpm descents are common idle path descents.

Forgive me, but that does not seem common. In a smoke-in-the-cabin emergency descent/landing I was a pax in, the MD-88 took 12 minutes to get from FL360 to JAN according to the first officer, and he bragged the max rate of descent was 6,000 fpm, adding "that baby can fly!"

Further, the speedbrakes were activated right at TOD and were retracted only on short final once the flaps were hurriedly extended from clean to full-flaps. FL360 to the ground at JAN is a rough average of 3,000 fpm. And that was an emergency descent with the fuselage shuddering all the way down because of the speedbrakes.

EDIT: and the equipment met us on the ground and everything. I add this to emphasize that it was a descent urgent enough that Swiss 111 was no doubt on the flight crew's minds. Turned out to be a bad A/C pack and no evac was necessary, though.

[Edited 2013-08-14 13:21:50]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2013-08-14 13:19:00 and read 35213 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 168):
The NTSB has released some better quality pictures.

The photo of the engine is interesting to me. No blade curling or real damage.

Quoting flyBTV (Reply 174):
They do fly privately, at least occasionally:

I would not call fly on a US Gov't aircraft 'private'.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 13:23:31 and read 34676 times.

Quoting airplanedaj (Reply 186):
The plane may not have been in a hurry, but the packages on board probably were. UPS probably wants to get those packages to people's (and business') doorstep ASAP.

I very much understand this and would love to hear the chatter over the company frequency then to see if there was some pressure put on the crew to expedite their arrival.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: barney captain
Posted 2013-08-14 13:25:42 and read 35048 times.

Aerial view of crash site.

My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those affected by this tragedy.





[Edited 2013-08-14 13:27:32]

[Edited 2013-08-14 13:28:04]

[Edited 2013-08-14 13:28:49]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 13:29:02 and read 34304 times.

Quoting airplanedaj (Reply 186):
The plane may not have been in a hurry, but the packages on board probably were. UPS probably wants to get those packages to people's (and business') doorstep ASAP.

UPS/FX don't run on schedules like pax schedules. Planes fly from the hubs to the stations overnight or in the morning. The packages go to a sorting facility and get loaded on delivery trucks. Oftentimes, these trucks leave well before 7. The plane then sits on the tarmac all day as packages being sent are loaded. In the evening or night (or as it fills up) the plane flies back to the hub, to offload those packages for sorting. It then picks up a new round of packages and repeats.
Larger stations might have scheduled midday flights, and long-haul flights are a bit different.
Often one station will have multiple A300s or 767s, etc, on the tarmac at one time. Thus why the fleets are very large.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 190):
Aerial view of crash site.

Wow that's a lot closer to the runway than the other pics show.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2013-08-14 13:30:52 and read 34258 times.

Quoting jfritz (Reply 176):
Would any expirienced pilots, CFI's like to entertain the idea of the Black Hole Effect (long visual approach at night)?

Wow thats a pretty good thought. Never even crossed my mind. It would explain the being short. But if the eyewitness testimony is correct and there was an engine issue it doesn't explain that. Unless it was just an uninformed individual.

It is always sad to wake up and see fellow UPSers no longer with us. UPS is a time critical company, but I don't think they would ever put timeliness behind the employees. Our supervisors stress safe operations at all times. Even if that means being slightly behind. I don't think time pressure had anything to do with the crash. Fatigue though may have played a factor.

May the crew RIP.
Pat

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: COxt
Posted 2013-08-14 13:31:22 and read 34161 times.

Unfortunate that my first post pertains to an accident with loss of life but I can confirm that rwy 06/24 was closed by NOTAM at the time of their arrival:

!BHM 08/034 BHM RWY 6/24 CLSD WEF 1308140900-1308141000

Any word on the recorders?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 13:36:50 and read 33722 times.

Quoting COxt (Reply 193):
Unfortunate that my first post pertains to an accident with loss of life but I can confirm that rwy 06/24 was closed by NOTAM at the time of their arrival:

Welcome! Unfortunate indeed, but helpful.

So 6/24 was closed and might not have been when the pilots were filing flight plans? Add in fatigue, black hole effect, and whatever in hell happened to the engines (if something did) and we have a pretty good recipe for a crash.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: boeingfixer
Posted 2013-08-14 13:38:54 and read 33742 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 191):
UPS/FX don't run on schedules like pax schedules.

I'd better tell our operations and dispatch department this. I won't speak for UPS but every FedEx flight is a scheduled flight with delay/cancellation codes etc... All those flights have to be scheduled for everything from catering, airports being open, crew and maintenance schedules, station requirements, fueling and the list goes on.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 188):
The photo of the engine is interesting to me. No blade curling or real damage.

That's the first thing I noticed as well. Not a lot of rotational damage there and the impact line on the fan is very distinct.

John

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2013-08-14 13:39:02 and read 33594 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 47):
By odd coincidence there was also a crash in Birmingham, UK at about the same time with the loss of 7 people.

Can't see anything about this on the net? Can you quote a source. Would have been on here and covered extensively in the media?

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 99):
Someone else said that they saw it on fire before crashing.

I wonder which part of the aircraft they referred too. If it was the engines (and given the intact fan ducts on the engines) this could suggest that there was at least one engine fire on approach.

RIP to the victims.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 13:39:36 and read 33772 times.

Quoting COxt (Reply 193):
06/24 was closed

Very pertinent info. The aerial photo posted by barney captain also gives a much better understanding. So sorry this happened.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-08-14 13:42:19 and read 33416 times.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 171):
That plane flew into a hill short of the airport when the GS was U/S.

In bad weather and over rough terrain, neither of which were factors here. That was a loss of situational awareness as far as the position of the aircraft in low visibility, and the pilot descended below the minimum safe altitude in an area where that was clearly marked on his approach charts, because he had no idea where he was. In this accident, the runway should have been clearly visible and that hill is only about 30 feet high by the looks of it.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 188):
The photo of the engine is interesting to me. No blade curling or real damage.

Well, if anything it suggests the pilots considered it a normal approach until impact.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 13:43:01 and read 33362 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 191):
UPS/FX don't run on schedules like pax schedules

You couldn't be more wrong. The aircraft might have a lower utilization but they still run on a very tight schedule. I don't understand why people comment on stuff they don't understand.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 13:45:34 and read 33222 times.

Quoting COxt (Reply 193):
Any word on the recorders?

Reports say that they haven't recovered them yet but think they will. 20 minutes until press release.

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 195):
I'd better tell our operations and dispatch department this. I won't speak for UPS but every FedEx flight is a scheduled flight with delay/cancellation codes etc... All those flights have to be scheduled for everything from catering, airports being open, crew and maintenance schedules, station requirements, fueling and the list goes on.

Oh I know. But you don't run 30 minute turnarounds at times convenient to pax. You guys are major scheduled air carriers and everything that goes with that. (To be fair my info does come from former UPS pilots/managers that I know. Not sure how accurate.)

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 196):
I wonder which part of the aircraft they referred too. If it was the engines (and given the intact fan ducts on the engines) this could suggest that there was at least one engine fire on approach.
Quoting apfpilot (Reply 199):
You couldn't be more wrong. The aircraft might have a lower utilization but they still run on a very tight schedule. I don't understand why people comment on stuff they don't understand.

I didn't say the don't run a tight schedule. I said they don't run like a pax one. DL and FX run on different schedules, because they serve different purposes. If anything, keeping the tight schedule is actually more important to UPS and FX.

[Edited 2013-08-14 13:51:01]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: onetogo
Posted 2013-08-14 13:46:22 and read 33020 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 187):
Forgive me, but that does not seem common

It's a bit excessive, but a slightly lower rate is quite common indeed. Large transport category aircraft flying a VNAV idle path would probably average 4,000 ft/min. The common range I would say to be 3,000-5,000ft/min depending on airspeed desired and type of aircraft. With spoilers deployed, you could get to +6,000 ft/min in many types. Given your example, there is basically no difference in terms of rate of descent between an emergency descent, and just a max effort descent to meet a crossing restriction.

Source: Part 121 pilot observing many types of VNAV descents from the jumpseat of various a/c types.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: WhiteWasp
Posted 2013-08-14 13:48:33 and read 32940 times.

Boeing in July, Airbus in August.... Sad Summer so far. Hopefully no more.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-08-14 13:52:35 and read 32620 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 199):
Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 191):
UPS/FX don't run on schedules like pax schedules

You couldn't be more wrong. The aircraft might have a lower utilization but they still run on a very tight schedule. I don't understand why people comment on stuff they don't understand.

I got the feeling like the commenter was talking about how the schedules mostly run at night and not during the day? The rest of his comment explains it fairly accurately.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 13:53:22 and read 32658 times.

Quoting Reply 201):
It's a bit excessive, but a slightly lower rate is quite common indeed.

Good to know, thanks for the clarification. I knew 6,000 couldn't be "common". Possible and common are two different things.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jreuschl
Posted 2013-08-14 13:53:31 and read 32606 times.

Anyone know where the press conference can be viewed online?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 13:55:13 and read 32508 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 200):

I didn't say the don't run a tight schedule. I said they don't run like a pax one. DL and FX run on different schedules, because they serve different purposes. If anything, keeping the tight schedule is actually more important to UPS and FX.

How was that a relevant response to what you replied to then? It was a question of them being rushed (which is even worse speculation)

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: onetogo
Posted 2013-08-14 13:56:18 and read 32424 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 204):
I knew 6,000 couldn't be "common".

Actually, up in the Flight Levels, when the controller has not issued a speed restriction and the descent can be done just below Vmo, it is common.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: EXMEMWIDGET
Posted 2013-08-14 13:56:40 and read 32463 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 191):

UPS/FX don't run on schedules like pax schedules. Planes fly from the hubs to the stations overnight or in the morning. The packages go to a sorting facility and get loaded on delivery trucks. Oftentimes, these trucks leave well before 7. The plane then sits on the tarmac all day as packages being sent are loaded. In the evening or night (or as it fills up) the plane flies back to the hub, to offload those packages for sorting. It then picks up a new round of packages and repeats.
Larger stations might have scheduled midday flights, and long-haul flights are a bit different.
Often one station will have multiple A300s or 767s, etc, on the tarmac at one time. Thus why the fleets are very large.

UPS/FedEx do have set flight schedules.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: boeingfixer
Posted 2013-08-14 13:57:41 and read 32495 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 200):
Oh I know. But you don't run 30 minute turnarounds at times convenient to pax.

We don't have pax to worry about but our turns are 40 minutes for the B757 with full freight offload/on-load as well as fueling and dealing with any inbound snags. And to top it off these turns are in the middle of the night for our FedEx operations here in Canada.

Now back to the topic at hand.........

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: flood
Posted 2013-08-14 13:59:30 and read 32318 times.

NTSB press conference scheduled to begin in a few minutes, live stream:
http://www.wsoctv.com/s/news/nation-world/live-video/

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 14:00:10 and read 32124 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 203):
I got the feeling like the commenter was talking about how the schedules mostly run at night and not during the day? The rest of his comment explains it fairly accurately.

Thank you. I was talking about the lower utilization and round trips daily, and the differences between freight and pax.
This particular A300 had only 11,000 hours on 6,800 cycles ever. First flight just over 10 years ago, deliverd 02/04.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 206):
How was that a relevant response to what you replied to then? It was a question of them being rushed (which is even worse speculation)

I was elaborating on the details of why those planes still have to run on tight schedules, and throwing in a bit of extra info. I only said that they don't run PAX SCHEDULES, to point out to some people about their turnarounds and coordination with ground. I don't believe they would have to be rushed really, as long as they stay mostly on time.

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 209):
We don't have pax to worry about but our turns are 40 minutes for the B757 with full freight offload/on-load as well as fueling and dealing with any inbound snags.

Impressive. Didn't realize they got quite that tight at the non-hub stations.

Conference should be starting...

[Edited 2013-08-14 14:01:19]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-08-14 14:03:45 and read 31982 times.

Quoting airplanedaj (Reply 186):
The plane may not have been in a hurry, but the packages on board probably were. UPS probably wants to get those packages to people's (and business') doorstep ASAP.

The morning arrival is the overnight - and thus most time-sensitive - freight. However, no matter what the cargo, this will not cause a deviation from a normal landing pattern on runway X. A more seldom-used runway will not be used specifically to expedite the aircraft to the gate.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 191):
UPS/FX don't run on schedules like pax schedules. Planes fly from the hubs to the stations overnight or in the morning. The packages go to a sorting facility and get loaded on delivery trucks. Oftentimes, these trucks leave well before 7. The plane then sits on the tarmac all day as packages being sent are loaded. In the evening or night (or as it fills up) the plane flies back to the hub, to offload those packages for sorting. It then picks up a new round of packages and repeats.
Larger stations might have scheduled midday flights, and long-haul flights are a bit different.

Usually the flight lands at the station, is unloaded and then loaded, and leaves again. Twice a day. This "sitting all day" theme is generally inaccurate. The majority of aircraft, especially the more-utilized widebodies, fly both day and night turns.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 14:04:24 and read 31890 times.

Quoting Reply 207):
Actually, up in the Flight Levels, when the controller has not issued a speed restriction and the descent can be done just below Vmo, it is common.

I'm eager learn more about this. Why would a flight crew want to do this on a regular/common basis? Wouldn't that require speedbrake application (to prevent overspeed), which would render the descent inefficient and thereby upset the bean counters? I could see that happening in unusual situations, i.e. wx, unexpected traffic, etc. But, under normal flight conditions, I'd think the crew would want keep the descent profile as efficient as possible, at perhaps the 3-5k fpm you mentioned. Granted I'm not an ATP, so please educate me. Thanks in advance.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: flood
Posted 2013-08-14 14:08:36 and read 31562 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 210):
NTSB press conference scheduled to begin in a few minutes, live stream:
http://www.wsoctv.com/s/news/nation-...ideo/

Bloomberg's feed appears to be better quality:
http://www.bloomberg.com/live-stream/

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 14:10:12 and read 31383 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 212):
Usually the flight lands at the station, is unloaded and then loaded, and leaves again. Twice a day. This "sitting all day" theme is generally inaccurate. The majority of aircraft, especially the more-utilized widebodies, fly both day and night turns.

Taking this into consideration, that was why I found it odd this aircraft wasn't scheduled to depart till around 2215 tonight. Know most wide-bodies with their cargo carrying capacity aren't usual left to bake on a ramp all day. Of course, I'm basing this observation on the information provided on FlightAware so it's quite possible I'm incorrect.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 14:11:39 and read 31341 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 213):

Generally, aircraft plan the most fuel efficient decent possible based on the cost index requested. Cost index determines climb, cruise, and decent speeds. The index is a ratio of time to fuel. A higher cost index will spend more fuel to make the flight faster, while a lower index will save fuel and the flight will be longer. The computer also takes into account wind, etc. Once the decent speed is determined, the computer looks at the winds along a decent, any programmed altitude restrictions, and the weight of the aircraft to compute a decent point that will result in a decent with engines at idle.

Anecdotally, in my working flights we fly at a very high cost index that programs a max speed decent which is about 340-350 knots. This routinely results in decent rates of 4000-6000 FPM.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: onetogo
Posted 2013-08-14 14:15:27 and read 31032 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 213):
I'm eager learn more about this. Why would a flight crew want to do this on a regular/common basis?

Most common reason would be controller intervention. VNAV calculates idle path descents based off of a programmed speed in the FMS. While a B737 may do ~5,000 ft/min descent at 320 knots, that rate obviously shallows considerably if the controller comes on and assigns a new speed of 280 knots.

So to answer your question, descents would never be planned ahead of time with the use of flight spoilers. They may come to be needed if the controller amends a crossing restriction, assigns a speed, there is turbulence/cloud layer the pilots would like to descend below ASAP, etc. Common sense stuff.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 14:15:36 and read 31064 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 150):
I agree it is quite interesting. I would like to hear Atlanta Center/Approach ATC records during the steep descent.
Quoting COxt (Reply 193):
Unfortunate that my first post pertains to an accident with loss of life but I can confirm that rwy 06/24 was closed by NOTAM at the time of their arrival:

!BHM 08/034 BHM RWY 6/24 CLSD WEF 1308140900-1308141000
Quoting Western727 (Reply 197):
Very pertinent info. The aerial photo posted by barney captain also gives a much better understanding. So sorry this happened.

That is very interesting. I had missed that for sure.

I am still eager to here some of the details. Descent path (while possible), still seems odd to me. The engine picture is also interesting as it doesn't seem to have been moving at impact.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 14:15:38 and read 31109 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 215):

Wide bodies in international long haul flights are usually very highly utilized. However, an UPS A300, FDX A310 or DHL 767-200 very commonly sits all day long. The DHL 767 in ORD sits everyday from 0546-2324. The schedule of this particular A300 is the normal schedule for the BHM airplane.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 14:15:49 and read 31117 times.

Quoting xjet (Reply 216):

There is also CDA which ironically UPS is on the forefront of: http://www.pressroom.ups.com/Fact+Sh...ervation+at+the+UPS+Airlines.print

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 14:18:27 and read 30784 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 220):

Yep, they worked hard on the new arrival procedures into SDF. They are great procedures. UPS (and almost everyone) is definitely doing everything possible to keep the engines at idle and save gas.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Western727
Posted 2013-08-14 14:18:41 and read 30799 times.

Quoting xjet (Reply 216):
in my working flights we fly at a very high cost index that programs a max speed decent which is about 340-350 knots. This routinely results in decent rates of 4000-6000 FPM.

Fascinating. May I ask - the "very high cost index"...is that typical of mainline jetliners flying for scheduled carriers? Or do you work up in the office of a different type of carrier?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 14:20:23 and read 30606 times.

NTSB meeting starting. Briefing going.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 14:21:35 and read 30667 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 222):

My company has a lot of freight aircraft and some passenger planes. W do a little bit of everything. It really depends on the need. For example, our passenger flights and long haul freight flights are low cost index... Somewhere around 30-45, while domestic express freight is always planned at 170.

Most airlines like DL or UA would fly on the lower end, though I'm not sure exactly what numbers they use.

[Edited 2013-08-14 14:22:32]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 14:22:51 and read 30544 times.

The confirmed they were on approach to 18. No reason why yet.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 14:24:09 and read 30689 times.

And tree strikes before impact. 200 yards of of tree strike to initial point. 80 yards past the initial impact point is the wings and tail. Very damaged by fire and still smoking. Can't get the black boxes because of that.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 14:26:13 and read 30485 times.

Interesting that there were trees damaged along the approach path prior to impact.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 4holer
Posted 2013-08-14 14:26:52 and read 30622 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 226):
200 yards of of tree strike to initial point.

I heard that as 200 yards from ground impact to final resting place of forward fuselage section, with a tree strike prior to ground impact.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 4holer
Posted 2013-08-14 14:30:57 and read 30569 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 227):
Interesting that there were trees damaged along the approach path prior to impact.
http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=14

(Pic in link subject to change, had been #11 earlier)

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 14:32:34 and read 30122 times.

Just said there was no distress call from the pilots is there opinion but they are verifying.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 14:34:03 and read 30345 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 229):
http://www.abc3340.com/slideshow?widgetid=87616&slideshowimageid=14

(Pic in link subject to change, had been #11 earlier)

Wow - that's the first time I've seen that particular photograph. Wonder how far from impact with terrain those trees were.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 14:34:15 and read 30079 times.

Dodged the descent rate question as they don't have the recorders.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2013-08-14 14:34:54 and read 29926 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 231):
Wow - that's the first time I've seen that particular photograph. Wonder how far from impact with terrain those trees were.

They said 200 yards.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 14:35:03 and read 30074 times.

Quoting flyBTV (Reply 174):
Quoting rj777 (Reply 164):

Just out of curiosity, when the NTSB heads to an accident site..... do they take a regularly scheduled commercial flight? Or do they take a private jet? I would think that since they need to get out there relatively quickly, they'd take a private flight.

Somebody drove.

The CVR/FDRs have not been recovered due to the fire still burning there.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 228):
I heard that as 200 yards from ground impact to final resting place of forward fuselage section, with a tree strike prior to ground impact.

Me too. The crash (just big pieces not little debris) spread about 280 yards, not including tree strikes.

It flew directly over a house, striking at the bottom of the hill first before sliding uphill due to momentum. Someone asked about descent rate :P

The NTSB is stressing that none of this is final.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 232):
Dodged the descent rate question as they don't have the recorders.

That was great. They are pros at dodging q's.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 14:37:09 and read 29896 times.

Visibility 10 miles. All good there.
So basically...
they don't know why it crashed. But it was on rwy 18 approach, went low, hit trees and power lines, flew over a house, and impacted in a field, breaking apart from impact.
Conference over.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 14:40:10 and read 29523 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 233):
They said 200 yards.

Guess the treeline/road in that photograph were just out of the frame of that great overhead photograph posted earlier.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: boeingfixer
Posted 2013-08-14 14:42:09 and read 29494 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 233):

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 232):
Dodged the descent rate question as they don't have the recorders.
Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 234):
That was great. They are pros at dodging q's.

How is this dodging a question? They answered with factual information that they don't have the FDR. The NTSB will not speculate and their answer was, in my opinion, correct.

John

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 4holer
Posted 2013-08-14 14:46:12 and read 29255 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 231):
Wow - that's the first time I've seen that particular photograph. Wonder how far from impact with terrain those trees were.

Look around and zoom back from this. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=tarran...amp;cbp=12,300.27,,0,2.13&z=16
Edit to add: Using Barney Captain's picture above in reply 190, it looks to be about 200 yards from the trees to impact AND 200 yards from impact to final position, and then another 80 or so to the rest of the debris.





[Edited 2013-08-14 15:01:58]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 14:46:23 and read 29340 times.

Quoting xjet (Reply 219):
Wide bodies in international long haul flights are usually very highly utilized. However, an UPS A300, FDX A310 or DHL 767-200 very commonly sits all day long. The DHL 767 in ORD sits everyday from 0546-2324. The schedule of this particular A300 is the normal schedule for the BHM airplane.

As much as I love air freight operations, I don't know why I never noticed this before. I would have thought UPS would have dedicated one of the 757 frames to a low density market like Birmingham.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 14:48:51 and read 29180 times.

Watched the flightradar24 playback (I know, I know, not super accurate) and it had the plane moving down and forward quite fast for almost the entire descent

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 14:50:50 and read 28973 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 240):
Watched the flightradar24 playback (I know, I know, not super accurate) and it had the plane moving down and forward quite fast for almost the entire descent

Flightradar 24 is very accurate especially on UPS Aircraft since they are all equipped with ADS-B.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: cubastar
Posted 2013-08-14 14:51:14 and read 29083 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 24):
A300 and A310 do not have the most sterling of safety records to be sure.

Actually, a check of the database on Flight Safety seems to indicate otherwise:

A-300 = 36 hull losses out of production of 561 aircraft. 5.52%

A-310 = 11 hull losses out of production of 255 aircraft. 4.31%

Those percentages compare quite well with most aircraft models of both Airbus and Boeing.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: onetogo
Posted 2013-08-14 14:52:21 and read 28948 times.

Will be interesting to watch the investigation unfold on this one.

One thing can be said without a doubt. The rate of pilots taking perfectly normal, fully functioning aircraft and crashing them into the ground recently is becoming unreal.. Asiana/Air France/Colgan/Comair

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 14:54:51 and read 28793 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 241):
Flightradar 24 is very accurate especially on UPS Aircraft since they are all equipped with ADS-B.

Forgot about the whole ADS-B thing. Then if its correct the a/c made a slight right turn while still descending quickly and moving quickly very near the ground.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-08-14 14:58:48 and read 28480 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 239):

I think there is a 757 for BHM as well. I think it passes through on the way to BFM in Mobile if I remember correctly. I would have to look it up to check.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-08-14 15:02:13 and read 28229 times.

Quoting Reply 243):
The rate of pilots taking perfectly normal, fully functioning aircraft and crashing them into the ground recently is becoming unreal.. Asiana/Air France/Colgan/Comair

The report isnt even out yet on Asiana. I think we all have a pretty clear idea what happened however I am going to extend the pilots the common courtesy of nothing saying that the aircraft was fully functioning until it is reported as such by the NTSB. If you are in an accident I am sure you would hope that your follow pilots would offer you the same courtesy.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jfritz
Posted 2013-08-14 15:14:19 and read 27435 times.

I missed press conference, did the comment on any distress/mayday calls?

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-08-14 15:19:40 and read 27189 times.

Quoting jfritz (Reply 247):
I missed press conference, did the comment on any distress/mayday calls?

I did not hear any questions or talk about it.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 15:21:27 and read 27211 times.

Quoting jfritz (Reply 247):
I missed press conference, did the comment on any distress/mayday calls?

They specifically commented on this. There were no communications from the crew to indicate anything other than a normal approach to landing.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-08-14 15:25:09 and read 27064 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 246):
The report isnt even out yet on Asiana. I think we all have a pretty clear idea what happened however I am going to extend the pilots the common courtesy of nothing saying that the aircraft was fully functioning until it is reported as such by the NTSB. If you are in an accident I am sure you would hope that your follow pilots would offer you the same courtesy.

Correct. All pilots find it perfectly acceptable to assume that mechanics, engineers, ATC and others screwed up instead until the final report comes in, and even then, dispute things.

Out of common courtesy to the fine men and women who build and maintain your aircraft, I'm going assume that the pilots in the Asiana crash screwed up because all evidence points to it, and the #1 cause of aircraft crashes is pilot error. Everyone in every profession makes mistakes, but I'm not willing to give pilots a "pass" every time when pilots don't seem to ever extend that courtesy to others...

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jfritz
Posted 2013-08-14 15:26:22 and read 26916 times.

Thanks Mark.

I mentioned this before seeing any pictures and even after I am wondering if the pilots were on a long final in night time conditions and possibly fell into the Black Hole Effect. I have actually had this happen to me where I found my self remaining below glide slope fixated on the only visual cue I had which was the runway lights in the distance. For those who don't know what the Black Hole Effect is, I encourage you to research it.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: SavannahMark
Posted 2013-08-14 15:32:28 and read 27196 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 250):
Correct. All pilots find it perfectly acceptable to assume that mechanics, engineers, ATC and others screwed up instead until the final report comes in, and even then, dispute things.

Out of common courtesy to the fine men and women who build and maintain your aircraft, I'm going assume that the pilots in the Asiana crash screwed up because all evidence points to it, and the #1 cause of aircraft crashes is pilot error. Everyone in every profession makes mistakes, but I'm not willing to give pilots a "pass" every time when pilots don't seem to ever extend that courtesy to others...

There was a great article posted at the Rogue Aviator's blog that, in my opinion perfectly illustrated the mentality of the Asiana pilots on that fateful day. I think it's been posted here before but for those who haven't read it before can find it at:

http://therogueaviator.com/asiana-sfo-crash-underlying-causes/

The structured mentality of Korean aviators has much to do with the lack of any prior civilian flight training prior to the 'institutional aviation' mentality they incur during their training. I may be off base here with some, but that's my opinion.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: N505FX
Posted 2013-08-14 15:57:49 and read 25702 times.

Quoting Reply 243):
fully functioning aircraft and crashing them into the ground recently is becoming unreal.. Asiana/Air France/Colgan/Comair

Don't forget Southwest!!!

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-08-14 15:59:48 and read 25813 times.

I learned to fly in the 70's in Montgomery Alabama and flew to Birmingham a lot at night. At that time Rwy 18-36 was shorter than it is now. I've flown off that very Rwy many times so I hope someone else can chime in here. In the 70's there was a large hill with a highway up on a bluff running E-W off the departure end of Rwy 36. They took that all down when they lengthened the Rwy years later. At that time using that Rwy at night was like a "black hole effect". The Rwy is now 7099' long but there is still rolling and hilly terrain off to the North and small mountains off the South end. I've flown into BHM several times on a commercial jet and at night and when we used the main Rwy 6-24 and crossed 18-36 on landing or takeoff I thought that it still had the "black hole effect" that others described here.

Now this morning you can just picture this. Here you have a crew landing a heavy jet in the early morning on a short runway with little visual clues being a non-precision approach runway and over unmarked and rolling hilly terrain. They may have also been trying to put the jet down close to the end. For unknown reasons maybe in addition to the "black hole effect" they were too low on the approach and over unfamiliar terrain and hit trees, power lines and an upslope hill short of the Runway that is for the NTSB to figure out.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: olliejolly
Posted 2013-08-14 16:02:55 and read 25473 times.

Quoting SavannahMark (Reply 249):

They specifically commented on this. There were no communications from the crew to indicate anything other than a normal approach to landing.

Could that lead to a possibility of the crew becoming incapacitated for some reason?
Sorry if anyone has speculated/commented on this, I haven't read the entire thread.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2013-08-14 16:16:59 and read 24832 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 246):
The report isnt even out yet on Asiana. I think we all have a pretty clear idea what happened however I am going to extend the pilots the common courtesy of nothing saying that the aircraft was fully functioning until it is reported as such by the NTSB. If you are in an accident I am sure you would hope that your follow pilots would offer you the same courtesy.

If I was in an accident and screwed up as bad as it looks like the Asiana crew did, I would take full responsibility in the hope that other pilots could learn from it.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: Grisee08
Posted 2013-08-14 16:21:54 and read 24612 times.

Quoting Reply 243):
The rate of pilots taking perfectly normal, fully functioning aircraft and crashing them into the ground recently is becoming unreal.. Asiana/Air France/Colgan/Comair

It really wasn't necessary to say this. You say it as if they write in their day planner to do this. Accidents happen, and Pilots, being humans, sometimes make fatal mistakes. I get your point, but there was a way you could have worded that statement without sounding so sinister.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: jreuschl
Posted 2013-08-14 16:30:47 and read 24097 times.

I don't know if it is fair to assume a pilot issue because we don't even know if there could have been an onboard fire.

If there was a fire, Sully or anyone else would have had the same fate.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-08-14 16:53:55 and read 23275 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 97):
Somebody IM me the pilots names if you see it anywhere. I know some UPS pilots.

Courtesy the NBC affiliate in Nashville http://www.wsmv.com/story/23135730/l...hburg-tn-pilot-killed-in-ups-crash

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-08-14 17:00:12 and read 22776 times.

Quoting Reply 243):
Will be interesting to watch the investigation unfold on this one.

One thing can be said without a doubt. The rate of pilots taking perfectly normal, fully functioning aircraft and crashing them into the ground recently is becoming unreal.. Asiana/Air France/Colgan/Comair

Yeah, because perfectly serviceable aircraft never crashed before 2009...

Come off it, the rate is not becoming unreal, it is declining - just not as quick as we might like. Flight crew remain the most important safey features onboard aircraft but also remain human and intrinsically fallible. It would be great if people could just stop acting as if pilot error accidents is a modern phenomenon - it isn't, flying has always been complex and unforgiving of failure. If one thing on this subject can be said without a doubt - and this is an objective truth - it is that today, fewer people are losing their lives to pilot error accidents than they did 20 or 30 years ago.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: polnebmit
Posted 2013-08-14 17:09:31 and read 22437 times.

(Edited... It seems my comments did not go well with some readers. Respecting other users' feelings I apologize.)

[Edited 2013-08-14 17:48:52]

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: 93Sierra
Posted 2013-08-14 17:25:17 and read 21808 times.

I'm not trying to speculate but if you look at both the GPS and Loc approach to runway 18 there is one last step down due to the hill there..... They could of missed that last step down and still had the runway lights in sight when they broke out of the clouds but were unable to see the hill in the darkness. I think the plane was fine, no atc communications indicate otherwise. Rip and tailwinds to the crew.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-08-14 17:26:21 and read 21640 times.

We will also have to wait and see what the recorders show as according to news reports this airplane in its life time had maintenance for trailing edge flap issues among others and recently had the air data computer replaced.

Topic: RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM
Username: moderators
Posted 2013-08-14 17:34:57 and read 21648 times.

Due to length, this thread will be archived. Part two is available here:
UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2 (by moderators Aug 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)



Regards,
Moderators

[Edited 2013-08-14 17:36:38]


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