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Topic: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-29 10:04:17 and read 18030 times.

United Airlines informed the IAM of its decision to contract out ramp and station work at CVG, GRR, ROC, ALB, MDT, and TUS stations effective October 15th. The winning bidder for the work was American Eagle.

Per IAM, the cost savings to United of removing their own employees and turning over the work at these stations to a vendor was about 35%, a threshold the union was unable to match.

The 225 effected workers will be considered eligible for the recently announced early out program.

union release:
http://www.iam141.org/docs/071913.pdf

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Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-07-29 10:06:36 and read 18037 times.

Kind of related...but I saw a stat this week which indicated that over 70 percent of all UA destinations in the US are only served by express and no mainline at all. This has to be the highest percentage of any carrier in the US.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: UALFAson
Posted 2013-07-29 10:38:28 and read 17817 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
Kind of related...but I saw a stat this week which indicated that over 70 percent of all UA destinations in the US are only served by express and no mainline at all. This has to be the highest percentage of any carrier in the US.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. It certainly feels like, domestically, unless you're flying between hubs or NYC to Florida, you're going to be on a RJ, probably a 50-seater. It's almost like UA domestic exists solely to feed international flights, and I wonder if that's a sustainable model for the long-term. I know that during the recent earnings call, there was some concern that UA is still shrinking domestically while its competitors are either flat or growing slightly.

When they retired the 737s pre-merger, was there any sort of plan to backfill that lost capacity or was the idea just to rely on UAX for whatever they could get?

I know its anecdotal, but there have been a couple of times this year I've forgone the MileagePlus miles (and enjoying my elite status) to fly another carrier just because I refuse to be on a RJ for 3+ hours.

On topic, sorry to see the mainline UA employees let go. I get that it's cheaper to outsource labor to a third-party, but how does that jive with the company's supposed new-focus on "customer service"? Yeah, people who work for a competing airline are totally going to go above and beyond for UA's customers. *eyeball roll*

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-07-29 10:48:35 and read 17693 times.

This doesn't surprise me at all. UA has been trying to reduce costs with the merger and the ability to do so to try to reduce costs through reducing the unionized membership is one of their options. You can't tell me that it is a surprise that they are trying to lower their costs. Will this affect the service that the public sees? If it doesn't, then it will probably be only the union that sees the effects.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-29 11:51:41 and read 17389 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
Kind of related...but I saw a stat this week which indicated that over 70 percent of all UA destinations in the US are only served by express and no mainline at all. This has to be the highest percentage of any carrier in the US.

Looking at this month it's 66% for DOT reportable flights, 49.9% for the total system.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-29 12:40:56 and read 17120 times.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 2):
When they retired the 737s pre-merger, was there any sort of plan to backfill that lost capacity or was the idea just to rely on UAX for whatever they could get?

It was really UAX, and ability to shrink the domestic network.

Remember UA was loosing big money, and the 737 grounding was one part of a larger fundemental shift at the carrier, which eventually saw things rightsized and generating profits again.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-29 12:50:23 and read 17050 times.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 2):
On topic, sorry to see the mainline UA employees let go. I get that it's cheaper to outsource labor to a third-party, but how does that jive with the company's supposed new-focus on "customer service"? Yeah, people who work for a competing airline are totally going to go above and beyond for UA's customers. *eyeball roll*

Having worked extensively in the ground handling world, I can tell you ground handlers can provide better performance than inhouse staff many times.

Handlers can be held to a host of high performance standards, and face everything from penalties to eventual loss of the contract if they don't uphold service delivery.

I can also attest that various metrics such as ontime turn times, attributed lost/damaged bags, ticketing errors, customer scores, injuries, ground damage, etc can be better with handlers than inhouse.

So contracting out should not become some euphemism for downgrade in service at all. Its up to the airline to police their vendors, and with the right relationship it can certainly be a very positive experience.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: CODC10
Posted 2013-07-29 14:46:39 and read 16766 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
So contracting out should not become some euphemism for downgrade in service at all. Its up to the airline to police their vendors, and with the right relationship it can certainly be a very positive experience.

Provided that the customer-facing employees (CSRs and such) are adequately trained on the airline's systems, policies and procedures to service customers, especially during IRROPS. It's a lose-lose situation at stations with primarily regional ops and poorly-trained outsourced staff above the wing, as those operations are generally more susceptible to delays/cancellations for ATC and weather issues.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-07-29 14:57:09 and read 16707 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Handlers can be held to a host of high performance standards, and face everything from penalties to eventual loss of the contract if they don't uphold service delivery.

That is generally not the case at UA. From a customer perspective, IMO, it's a bad business model to outsource your customer service, the most visible and important component of any company, to the lowest bidder. While there are many poorly performing UA employees as well, there is little incentive for the "contracted" employee to care whether the passenger has a good experience or a terrible one. And there is less incentive to stay if you are paid poorly.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-29 15:00:56 and read 16690 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
to the lowest bidder.

Why does everyone assume it goes to the lowest bidder? Usually it is not the lowest bidder that wins in these things, but there is compromise between CSat, Cost, operational integrity etc. Most stations have 4+ bidders with a range of prices and UA has relationships with most major ground handlers in the US so they know what results they can expect from each.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-07-29 15:44:13 and read 16538 times.

So lets outsource everything then. Give all the work including the hubs to DGS and AE.
Pay them squat and when one loses the contract, the other comes in and cuts the pay (back to new starting wages) of the existing employees. Wash; Rinse; Repeat, the cycle goes on. Then you won't have any United employees by name. Is that what you want it to come to?

Ground handling companies have their place, but when you try and replace us because you think that they can do a better job for a lot less money and what they pay their people. Well you and I part company. When I was hired many years ago, the pay was lousy (we started at very low wages) but a manager told us that we get paid what the market will bear. Well has it come to no mainline employees will ever work for an airline besides pilots and flight attendants.

Go IAH, GO!!!!!

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-07-29 16:47:22 and read 16330 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 8):

That is generally not the case at UA. From a customer perspective, IMO, it's a bad business model to outsource your customer service, the most visible and important component of any company, to the lowest bidder. While there are many poorly performing UA employees as well, there is little incentive for the "contracted" employee to care whether the passenger has a good experience or a terrible one. And there is less incentive to stay if you are paid poorly.

Exactly.....and UA is having some major problems on the customer service side of things at the moment. Outsourcing ops below the wing is one thing, but above the wing where you are the most visible is ridiculous, not to mention that when you get employees that don't care and are cheap, your quality goes way way down. And with almost 70 percent of the United Domestic stations not even served by mainline, it is becoming increasingly likely that when you fly UA domestically, you will not deal with one United Airlines employee at all, in Customer Service or on the Airplane. (Though ORD is all UA on both sides, and I believe IAD above the wing was just brought in house as well)

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-07-29 17:49:35 and read 16127 times.

So does this mean that American Eagle is also going to work the American Eagle flights in MDT? Currently I believe Piedmont does the work.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: TW870
Posted 2013-07-29 18:06:45 and read 16040 times.

There is a lot of talk in the media about "restoring the middle class" and "creating jobs". This is one clear, specific example of where the middle class jobs are going. With this deal you will take 250 jobs that pay a relatively decent wage, and replace them with jobs that pay far less.

I do not, however, want to make a negative comment about the actual people who work at outsourced stations, as I see subcontracted customer service agents do efficient, smart work all across the United system.

United's biggest problem is its immense inconsistency, as it can either be the best or by far the worst airline in the U.S. I always avoid United unless I have work in SFO, as in almost all other cases you will endure long flights on 50-seaters, and deal with extremely overworked customer service staff. The latest news just makes it worse.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-29 18:33:27 and read 15920 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
That is generally not the case at UA.

Then shame on UA for not policing and managing their vendors well then.

Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
it's a bad business model to outsource your customer service, the most visible and important component of any company, to the lowest bidder.

You realize some of the best names in customer service airlines in the world - Emirates, Singapore, Swiss, BA, etc contract out work at most non-hub stations? Some even do so at their home base !

I've seen performance metric scores at and regularly have seen vendor stations perform better than inhouse staffed ones.

So there is no set rule to say its bad business to contract out front end positions. Its all a matter of finding and managing the vendor appropriately.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 9):
Why does everyone assume it goes to the lowest bidder? Usually it is not the lowest bidder that wins in these things, but there is compromise between CSat, Cost, operational integrity etc. Most stations have 4+ bidders with a range of prices and UA has relationships with most major ground handlers in the US so they know what results they can expect from each.

  

Most recently with the push for multiple stations packaged deals it is often indeed a compromise of price, capability, and leveraging relationships. If it was simply price, you would have more contracts go to ACME ground services at the individual stations.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
but a manager told us that we get paid what the market will bear.

Absolutely, and that is the way things should be.

As a consumer you dont want to be asked to overpay for products and services you consume, and neither should an airline have to pay much above market norms for its own services.


Quoting apodino (Reply 11):
but above the wing where you are the most visible is ridiculous, not to mention that when you get employees that don't care and are cheap, your quality goes way way down.

Its hardly ridiculous .

Contract handling is the norm around the world and practiced by top brand airlines from one continent to another.

I don't hear folks complain the Singapore Airlines home hub is not staffed by their own employees. Or that of Emirates in Dubai.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Mah4546
Posted 2013-07-29 18:36:54 and read 15901 times.

American Eagle doesn't even fly to ALB, but does ground handling there still?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2013-07-29 18:47:04 and read 15846 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
Well has it come to no mainline employees will ever work for an airline besides pilots and flight attendants.

Probably won't be long until an inflight attendant company comes along. If I had the $$$ to try it, I certainly would give it a whirl. I don't agree with it, but if there is $$ to be made, may as well be me. I don;t think it would be too difficult to achieve. Just wait a few years.....
Same goes for 24 hr daycare. Don't care much for kids, but there has to be a demand for it somewhere. Although I wouldn't work there lol.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: seatback
Posted 2013-07-29 18:56:17 and read 15798 times.

So does this mean the same AE ground staff handleing AE flights at CVG will walk down and handle UX flights too? Or, are there separate employees for both airlines?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: TUSAA
Posted 2013-07-29 19:07:50 and read 15751 times.

There are two separate AE divisions doing ground handling work. You have the regular AE employees who get full benefits, and you have American Eagle Ground Handling Services in which there are no benefits of any kind, just minimum wage and that's it. Im not sure which unit is in which station, but I know they were used in quite a few of AA's outsourced stations over the last year. AE also works UA Express at DAL.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-07-29 19:26:29 and read 15668 times.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 15):
American Eagle doesn't even fly to ALB, but does ground handling there still?

As is relatively common with the regional airlines that also have substantial ground handling operations (and Eagle's is huge), Eagle does provide ground handling services in stations where Eagle, itself, does not actually operate. Indeed, as many have suggested, the future of American Eagle as a legal entity may well be as a ground handler, which seems to be an area where Eagle has grown dramatically in recent years.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: SHAQ
Posted 2013-07-29 20:26:35 and read 15492 times.

This is my opinion:
I don't see a problem with UA outsourcing this stations, because most of them have one or two mainline flights. So it's not necessary to have ramp and gate employees just for one flight.

I'll ask something to people that think that UA is the wicked airline because it outsource to companies who pay min. wage.
Do you expect to make a living and have a family being a ramper? We need to live and see the present. You can't ask for skilled wage, if your work is unskilled.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-07-29 20:39:36 and read 15452 times.

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 20):
Do you expect to make a living and have a family being a ramper? We need to live and see the present. You can't ask for skilled wage, if your work is unskilled.

  It's sad but very true... Ramp agents and CSAs are NOT skilled positions. I have worked as a CSA and I would have felt I was well compensated had I been making $10/hour.

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 18):
There are two separate AE divisions doing ground handling work. You have the regular AE employees who get full benefits, and you have American Eagle Ground Handling Services in which there are no benefits of any kind, just minimum wage and that's it. Im not sure which unit is in which station, but I know they were used in quite a few of AA's outsourced stations over the last year. AE also works UA Express at DAL.

I think all American Eagle employees get flight benefits... Whether you work United Express or American/Eagle flights. If you don't get flight benefits I don't know why anyone would work there.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2013-07-29 21:11:13 and read 15337 times.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 15):
American Eagle doesn't even fly to ALB, but does ground handling there still?

Weird. US uses Piedmont, DL has there own employees at ALB, IIRC, and WN is WN.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2013-07-29 21:35:22 and read 15149 times.

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 20):
Do you expect to make a living and have a family being a ramper? We need to live and see the present. You can't ask for skilled wage, if your work is unskilled.

I would say most would say yes. What should it be? A job that is one of three that someone has 'ciz they can't make enough to live on?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Surfandsnow
Posted 2013-07-29 23:14:32 and read 14692 times.

Didn't PMUA have a contractual obligation to retain their own staff at any station seeing mainline service at least 6 months of the year? IIRC, announcements like this were a precursor to UA withdrawing all mainline service (for the majority of the year, anyway).

At first I assumed this meant that these stations were all going to lose UA mainline service. However, a quick check of FlightStats shows that UA mainline is completely gone from CVG and TUS, whilst ALB, MDT, and ROC each have 1 daily mainline flight to ORD and GRR has a whopping 2 daily mainline flights (1x daily DEN-GRR/1x daily ORD-GRR, 2x daily GRR-ORD). I guess this move has nothing to do with losing UA mainline - anymore?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-07-29 23:26:50 and read 15041 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 11):
it is becoming increasingly likely that when you fly UA domestically, you will not deal with one United Airlines employee at all, in Customer Service or on the Airplane.

It is very likely that when you fly in with United from outside the US, you will not deal with one United Airlines employee until you step on the plane. United may have a handful of people at the airport (and I do mean a handful, not two handfuls) and possibly a handful in an office downtown working sales, but the agents you'll encounter will in all likelihood all work for the local handler. When they're done working your flight, they'll go on to another gate and fulfill the same role for Qatar Airways, then perhaps British Airways and finish their day sending off passengers on Cathay Pacific.

The outsourcing of outstation staff is very common outside the US. While I understand the labor issues, it was just a matter of time before it started catching on here as well. I don't have specific information about United but I know of other, well known, award-winning carriers that send a wide-body or two a day to cities where they simply have no staff at all, and service does not necessarily suffer.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2013-07-29 23:37:14 and read 15062 times.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 24):
At first I assumed this meant that these stations were all going to lose UA mainline service. However, a quick check of FlightStats shows that UA mainline is completely gone from CVG and TUS, whilst ALB, MDT, and ROC each have 1 daily mainline flight to ORD and GRR has a whopping 2 daily mainline flights (1x daily DEN-GRR/1x daily ORD-GRR, 2x daily GRR-ORD). I guess this move has nothing to do with losing UA mainline - anymore?

I can only speak to CVG, but I remember hearing a rumor that they were canning mainline just long enough to kill the mainline ground staff at CVG. There was something in the contract that if no mainline flies to a station for x time, they can dump the mainline handlers and go with an outsourced crew. According to said rumor/theory, they can bring back mainline in some limited capacity and just have it handled by these outsourced staff.

US at least used to have an arrangement at CMH where they were allowed to fly some small number of mainline flights per day into that station with an all-USX handling crew. They are/were allowed under their contract to do so as long as they don't exceed a certain number of mainline flights a day. Unfortunately I think this is the way of the future for these stations that do see SOME mainline, but where the level of mainline traffic is just simply not there to justify the expense.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-07-30 00:04:52 and read 15132 times.

How to save billions, and make the airline profitable. ... Outsource management and execs! The "market" as most have mentioned, has plenty of qualified individuals looking for work. Plenty that would work for half the salary. Plenty of skilled labor out there, that would actually do their jobs. Why not try it?

How do you define a failed management structure? Simple..... Bankruptcy for one, and losses for another. A loss is every managers doing. Want to be profitable? Outsource management! Or replace them with competent job searchers. UA has plenty of leaders that do not deserve the positions they hold. Why do the real workers that run the airline always have to be the victims of piss poor leadership?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-07-30 00:15:25 and read 15115 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 27):
Outsource management and execs! The "market" as most have mentioned, has plenty of qualified individuals looking for work. Plenty that would work for half the salary. Plenty of skilled labor out there, that would actually do their jobs. Why not try it?

Actually US airline management is woefully underpaid compared to other industries.

If anything airlines need to pay much more to get the best and brightest out of US business schools and be able attract talent away from other industries.
When you have things like financial sector offering 6-digit starting pay to college seniors, who wants to come play at an airline in a lowly analyst position for mid 5-digit pay. The divergence gets even worse as you move up the ranks.

Its actually a rather sad state that such a large and capital intensive sector cant attract or retain much new executive blood due to low pay and relative big headaches.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2013-07-30 00:31:25 and read 15045 times.

Does anybody but me think it's strange that UA is going to rely on a direct competitor to do their ground handling?

I understand outsourcing to reduce costs, but couldnt they do the outsourcing under the banner of Expressjet/Skywest/TransStates, i.e. a carrier with whom they already have an express contract with, versus a competing airline? As someone who admittedly does not work in the airline industry, it seems to defy logic.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-07-30 00:42:45 and read 15031 times.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 29):
I understand outsourcing to reduce costs, but couldnt they do the outsourcing under the banner of Expressjet/Skywest/TransStates, i.e. a carrier with whom they already have an express contract with, versus a competing airline? As someone who admittedly does not work in the airline industry, it seems to defy logic.

ExpressJet no longer does ground handling... At one time they handled something like 78 cities for Continental but gradually lost stations to DGS, Regional Elite, Eagle, etc. and closed their last two stations in December 2012. Ironically, all six of these stations in discussion were stations handled by ExpressJet (On the S-CO side) and were lost to Eagle about a year ago. ExpressJet agents were terrific and were very dedicated to their company and UA/CO. Trans States hasn't done ground handling in years... I believe they only ever did ground handling for American. SkyWest still has a substantial ground handling operation for United out west however it seems like they really aren't interested in expanding it (They lost about 16 UA stations a year ago).

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: tcfc424
Posted 2013-07-30 00:49:44 and read 15031 times.

Having worked as a cross-utilized CSR for PMUA, I can say that the service that can be delivered (notice CAN) is far superior to that of a ground handling company. Below the wing is definitely less-invasive as above the wing, but there are cases to be made on both sides. One of the reasons I no longer work for United is that I was disenchanted with the work of some of my colleagues. Unions have their place, but they are also, unfortunately, a place for lack-luster performers to remain.

My crew was relatively young, new to the airline, excited about our job, and ready to fill in wherever needed at a moment's notice. The other shifts were much more jaded, having been through BK, mergers, and the like. They were bitter, unwilling, and in some cases, unable to perform their duties. Obviously, that doesn't mean that all, or even most were that way...but there were a good number.

In a perfect world, an employee has loyalty to the company for which they work, and, in-turn the company shows loyalty to the employee. The latter has been lacking in the airline world for some time. I was one of the most junior employees at my station, yet I was 1 of only 5 that could perform all of our functions above and below the wing in a station of 85. When they were talking about layoffs, I would have been the first to be let go. That's not a sustainable business model.

The ground handling person above made some very clear points. A non-unionized group can be held to a higher level of accountability with less risk and with less red tape. They can hire and fire as needed. And based on performance. In my time, I saw many (airline employees) that should have been at least disciplined for their lack of performance, however in a unionized environment, that becomes "not worth it." That's a huge problem and a big advantage to outsourced labor. At the same time, recruiting quality workers in an outsourced environment can be very challenging. The pay is lower, there are little, if any flight benefits, and a myriad of requirements to work for an airline handling company.

Working next to an airline that utilized several ground-handling companies, I can tell you that I would much rather have airline employees handling my stuff than the people working for the contractor. I saw some atrocities on the ramp conducted by the contractors, but then, they had little motivation to care...other than to keep their $7.35/hr part-time job.

Unions have their place, and they can function WITH the airline, but from my experience, they are too busy filling their coffers and protecting low-performers to worry about providing the best product to their employer. In similar words to JFK, ask not what your airline can do for you, but what you can do for your airline. Provide a high-quality product reliably and for a reasonable price, and you will remain in place. Provide a lower quality product unreliably and for a high price (both monetarily and procedurally) and find yourself looking for work.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Buddys747
Posted 2013-07-30 03:54:57 and read 14628 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 12):
So does this mean that American Eagle is also going to work the American Eagle flights in MDT? Currently I believe Piedmont does the work.


I can't say with 100% certainty, but my last flight MDT-CLE, it appeared the ground staff was a bunch of young college girls and they were using AE equipment. I assumed it was left over from when AE pulled out of MDT in 2008. Since AE's return, Piedmont handles those flights. Strange?. All the sCO dash8 flights depart from A2, while all the sUA flights leave from the B concourse. Only recently has the one mainline switched from A320 to 738, however sUA handles that flight also. So I'm assuming the current sCO contracted ground crew might be taking over the UA flights.
Sad to see this happen once again. Hopefully some of the folks at MDT can retire, some of them have been there forever.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: vgnatl747
Posted 2013-07-30 06:05:54 and read 14068 times.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 2):
When they retired the 737s pre-merger, was there any sort of plan to backfill that lost capacity or was the idea just to rely on UAX for whatever they could get?

Ironically, RDU went from frequently seeing CO 737s and UA 320's. Now it's rare to see them. Beyond the RDU-SFO flight and a very occasional IAD service, everything is ERJ and Q400. Of the 36 segments I've flown so far this year, only maybe 4 have been on anything other than regional equipment. They're all packed, and they all sell out weeks before, but apparently that's all we get.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: oosnowrat
Posted 2013-07-30 06:24:54 and read 13910 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 30):

OO just restructured their customer service department - including pay cuts - in an effort to be more competitive in the ground handling business. I'd say they're still interested.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: norcal
Posted 2013-07-30 06:25:26 and read 13913 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 27):

How to save billions, and make the airline profitable. ... Outsource management and execs! The "market" as most have mentioned, has plenty of qualified individuals looking for work. Plenty that would work for half the salary. Plenty of skilled labor out there, that would actually do their jobs. Why not try it?

Exactly, they are all overpaid and reward themselves bonuses regardless of how well or poorly the company does

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
Actually US airline management is woefully underpaid compared to other industries.

No, America overpays its executives. It's not a market based system but one that is based off of cronyism. All of these guys serve on each other's boards and collectively decide they are worth far more then they really are.

Average CEO compensation has increased 1000% since 1950. Companies aren't doing a 1000% better so we are way over paying for executives.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...to-worker-pay-ratio_n_3184623.html
http://gawker.com/5928298/its-time-to-tie-executive-pay-to-worker-pay

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-07-30 06:26:54 and read 13906 times.

I am not totally aware of the new UA outsourcing as it compares to DL. From what I gather isn't the UA similar to what DL does in its out stations?

If the goal is to make UA competitive with DL and this is the industry standard I understand what the company is trying to achieve. The pilots and mechanics have had their numbers slashed via outsourcing since 9/11. Perhaps what is happening now should have been done during BK.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: hohd
Posted 2013-07-30 06:34:51 and read 13898 times.

UA is the master of RJs. I am not surprised 70% of the flights are now non-mainline. Even from EWR and IAH, the majority are now in RJs. You have RJs to large cities like ATL, DTW, STL, MSP. There is no chance of upgrades on the RJs. They are cutting costs to the bone. I dont know how DL and WN and even AA are making it with more mainline flights.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-07-30 08:04:32 and read 13365 times.

Quoting oosnowrat (Reply 34):
OO just restructured their customer service department - including pay cuts - in an effort to be more competitive in the ground handling business. I'd say they're still interested.

It's called "whipsaw". I heard the same thing that OO ground employees have to take a major paycut, because they would lose contracts to "lower" paying outfits. That's a shame because you are as only good as your next contract. The race to the bottom continues. Probably AE (which is more of a ground handler now than a airline) or DGS. Two direct competitiors.

Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 31):
The ground handling person above made some very clear points. A non-unionized group can be held to a higher level of accountability with less risk and with less red tape. They can hire and fire as needed. And based on performance. In my time, I saw many (airline employees) that should have been at least disciplined for their lack of performance, however in a unionized environment, that becomes "not worth it." That's a huge problem and a big advantage to outsourced labor. At the same time, recruiting quality workers in an outsourced environment can be very challenging. The pay is lower, there are little, if any flight benefits, and a myriad of requirements to work for an airline handling company.

That's not necessarily true in all cases. Even if you are in a non-union environment, which I was in, it was and is still based on the seniority system. If you work for an airline, it is based on that system, unless you go into management. All other work groups go by the seniority system, so last hired - first fired. It's sad, but that's what they tell you from Day One. The problem mainly with outsourced labor is the high turnover. (I'm not saying all - I'm quite sure that the companies that do the international airlines ATW/BTW pay much more) Even if you want to stick it out, once you lose your contract, another company comes in and offer to rehire you, but at a much lower "starting" wage. Even if you are experienced at your job. So even that is sort of based on the seniority system as well.

Bottom line is some stations will get outsourced. Most people in smaller line stations are senior. But when you are talking about larger line stations (where mainline flies above a certain threshold) and the hubs, well that is a serious problem and that will be fought.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-07-30 08:14:57 and read 13284 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 36):
I am not totally aware of the new UA outsourcing as it compares to DL. From what I gather isn't the UA similar to what DL does in its out stations?

It's hard to compare. The rule at DL is effectively that any station with more than 50 weekly mainline (or maybe mainline plus large RJ) NW departures as of roughly late 2006 is handled in-house because that was the rule at PMNW and at the time of the merger, any station that has in-house handling from either carrier remained in-house and NW was much more heavily in-house. (The only exceptions to this, I think, are JFK, CVG and maybe SLC, which would have been under NW's threhold and are obviously handled in-house). But that means that stations like BNA--which saw lots of NW DC-9 and Airbus filghts in that time period--are handled by DL today.

Of course, post-737 retirement, very few UA stations have more than 50 weekly mainline flights, so even though UA has a much tighter rule about mainline flights being handled in-house, I think the net effect is probably that there are UA employees at fewer stations.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-30 08:39:58 and read 13112 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 25):
you will not deal with one United Airlines employee until you step on the plane.

Unless you deal with the supervisor, then yes. But UA almost always has a UA supervisor there at international stations.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 27):
How to save billions, and make the airline profitable. ... Outsource management and execs!
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
Actually US airline management is woefully underpaid compared to other industries.
Quoting norcal (Reply 35):
No, America overpays its executives.

"Executives" is not the same thing as "management". CEO's may be overpaid, but I assure you I am not.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 29):
Does anybody but me think it's strange that UA is going to rely on a direct competitor to do their ground handling?

Remember this is American Eagle, and not AA proper. Also, think that they are getting spun off shortly.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-07-30 08:47:38 and read 13046 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 40):
Remember this is American Eagle, and not AA proper. Also, think that they are getting spun off shortly.

The airline portion will be dead. But the ground handling division will expand. And as of now they are still under the AMR umbrella. I don't know what the new merged corp. name will be, but they won't give it up if it is profitable.

DGS is still DL. They own them.

Still all in all direct competitors working UA flights.........

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-30 08:52:11 and read 12994 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 41):
Still all in all direct competitors working UA flights.........

I get your point, and understand the skepticism. But I have worked directly with the folks responsible for the UA contracts and they are not messing around. The way UA has set the contracts up includes a Bonus/Penalty system for performance metrics and the stations take this very seriously.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-07-30 09:48:57 and read 12692 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 42):

I get your point, and understand the skepticism. But I have worked directly with the folks responsible for the UA contracts and they are not messing around. The way UA has set the contracts up includes a Bonus/Penalty system for performance metrics and the stations take this very seriously.

This has created issues in some cities where the contractor ground handles multiple companies. I flew UA out of ATW recently, and the inbound flight on EV landed early and they did everything right. However the ground handler in ATW is DGS, who also handles Delta. Delta had a DTW flight departing at the same time the UA flight got into ATW. DGS staffs the station to handle both carriers, so all the people in ATW were busy handling the DL flight. Because of this the EV flight had to wait 20 minutes to get marshalled into the gate. The outbound flight to ORD ended up being delayed as a result of this, and I nearly misconnected in ORD as a result. And in a lot of smaller stations where one ground handler ends up winning all the ground handling contracts...this is becoming the norm.

To the poster who mentioned how DL and WN do it with more mainline when UA was 70 percent express. My only response to that is that even though UA reported a Q2 profit, the prior quarters were all losses for UA, but DL and WN were reporting profits. The way UA is going with everything becoming express domestically, and other airlines moving away from this slightly (US, AA, and DL), this is going to put them at a competitve disadvantage because passengers now know who to fly to get the mainline planes, and it also puts UA at the risk of becoming what Pan Am was around the time of Deregulation (Great international network, but Domestic network to feed it smallish)

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-30 09:58:58 and read 12663 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 43):
(Great international network, but Domestic network to feed it smallish)

Delta currently serves 224 domestic destinations: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=18&cat=47
United serves 228 domestic destinations: http://www.unitedcontinentalholdings...file=united_factsheet.pdf&type=pdf

Tell me again about "smallish domestic feed".

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-07-30 10:19:12 and read 12568 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 44):

Tell me again about "smallish domestic feed".

I stand by what I said. Yes they may fly to 228 cities in this country, but nearly 150 of these cities only see United Express service, and not United Airlines service. Because of the way ground delay programs work in this country, United will give the regional partners worse delays because they want to protect their own flights and make their numbers look good. This causes many passengers to misconnect, and because many international cities only have one or two departures a day, these passengers often won't make it to their destination. This is not just limited to United, but they are the worst at it. United relies on other people to provide them with their international feed much of the time, where as airlines such as Delta, although they do outsource plenty, they also provide a lot more of their own lift.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: FAT5DEP
Posted 2013-07-30 10:58:47 and read 12537 times.

My father-in-law received this book on his 2nd anniversary as an employee with United. The book is called High Horizons by Frank J. Taylor. Here are some interesting excerpts in the book from a former United president.

///

Patterson in 1944

“In dealing with our employes there is one economic theory we threw to the winds 15 years ago-the theory that labor is a commodity. Employes are human beings and cannot be treated as a commodity. We use the usual methods of selection and training but our basic philosophy, as directors and management, is that capital cannot be put to useful accomplishment unless there are human beings to execute the basic idea for which that capital was provided. We also recognize the fact that employes cannot be gainfully occupied without capital. Therefore, we have an inseparable partnership.”

“I think it is unfortunate that our government adopted in legislation the term ’collective bargaining.’ What is a bargain in the usual sense? It is getting something for less than what it is worth, and less than you expected to pay. My conscience would not permit me to complete a bargain with our employes. It is unfortunate that the phraseology of our National Labor Relations Act is such that its very words tend to promote suspicion.”


In the Patterson scheme of things, employes are infinitely more valuable than machines. “The United family is not only United’s greatest asset,” he has said repeatedly. “It is our only asset that is irreplaceable.”

///

Certainly, things are much different today.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: N908AW
Posted 2013-07-30 15:56:41 and read 12200 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 43):
This has created issues in some cities where the contractor ground handles multiple companies. I flew UA out of ATW recently, and the inbound flight on EV landed early and they did everything right. However the ground handler in ATW is DGS, who also handles Delta. Delta had a DTW flight departing at the same time the UA flight got into ATW. DGS staffs the station to handle both carriers, so all the people in ATW were busy handling the DL flight. Because of this the EV flight had to wait 20 minutes to get marshalled into the gate. The outbound flight to ORD ended up being delayed as a result of this, and I nearly misconnected in ORD as a result. And in a lot of smaller stations where one ground handler ends up winning all the ground handling contracts...this is becoming the norm.

Vendors in this case do have to watch out. For one, they may see the bill at the end of the day if mishandling (or in this case failing to handle) results in a delay requiring compensation (IIRC some contracts do penalize the station for this). But if that doesn't happen...somebody else will eventually get the contract. So if you are asserting (and you aren't the only one) that DGS purposefully sabotages/disregards non-DL operations (as an example) - I think the threat of losing the contract, as well as the threat of getting hit with soft cost penalties downline, limits how much this happens. Plus, consider the fact that DGS handles United in a handful of cities, but Skywest handles DL in other cities (I think), and Piedmont handles DL in other cities...so, theoretically, DGS management isn't likely to go around openly advocating for causing delays on other carriers.

Like you said, this is becoming the norm and it stands to reason it will only get more prominent post-AA/US merger. I suspect AA will learn the same thing Delta did - it makes no sense to have two regional ground handlers (Regional Elite/DGS) under one roof. Eagle and Piedmont in all likelihood will not co-exist for very long (even if Eagle gets spun-off). So I think a couple more stations will play magical vendors again where there are small US and/or AA operations.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-30 16:20:57 and read 12173 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
You realize some of the best names in customer service airlines in the world - Emirates, Singapore, Swiss, BA, etc contract out work at most non-hub stations? Some even do so at their home base !

I've seen performance metric scores at and regularly have seen vendor stations perform better than inhouse staffed ones.

So there is no set rule to say its bad business to contract out front end positions. Its all a matter of finding and managing the vendor appropriately.

I'm not sure if Swiss is the best example considering the historical relationship between LX/SR and Swissport. It's not the typical ground handling company.

Quoting seatback (Reply 17):
So does this mean the same AE ground staff handleing AE flights at CVG will walk down and handle UX flights too? Or, are there separate employees for both airlines?

I think it depends on whether the flight times cross and if the customer airline will even allow the contracted employees to "double-dip". For example, AA at MIA does not permit its contracted employees to work for other airlines.

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 18):
There are two separate AE divisions doing ground handling work. You have the regular AE employees who get full benefits, and you have American Eagle Ground Handling Services in which there are no benefits of any kind, just minimum wage and that's it. Im not sure which unit is in which station, but I know they were used in quite a few of AA's outsourced stations over the last year. AE also works UA Express at DAL.

   I just hope the new outsourced employees will work directly for MQ if only for the travel benefits.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 21):
I think all American Eagle employees get flight benefits... Whether you work United Express or American/Eagle flights. If you don't get flight benefits I don't know why anyone would work there.

As mentioned above, AEGS employees do not receive flight benefits and the airline's career site is very clear about this. I agree that, if not for the flight benefits, I have no idea why someone would put themselves through the stress and general thanklessness of working in the airline industry for $10/hour.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-07-30 17:18:50 and read 12082 times.

I wonder, could UA outsource part of its ground handling to itself -- à la DL and DGS?

Delta Global Services, so far as I am aware, are wholly owned by Delta Air Lines. DGS rampers whom I've met have told me that they make $10-11 an hour, and have online flight privileges only -- that is, they can fly standby at the employee rate only on DL or the airline they happen to be handling, and when they do, they are far down on the standby list.

While I can see UA outsourcing certain outstations' ramp ops, they should at least keep ATO -- ticket counter, above the wing -- functions in-house if they can, for Customer Facing employees can make a big difference, if they are motivated by the company they work for.

The Hubs, due to their importance I expect, will continue to be handled by Company folks.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-07-30 18:54:27 and read 11907 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 48):
As mentioned above, AEGS employees do not receive flight benefits and the airline's career site is very clear about this. I agree that, if not for the flight benefits, I have no idea why someone would put themselves through the stress and general thanklessness of working in the airline industry for $10/hour.

I know several Eagle agents who do nothing but ground handle UAX flights and the DO get American flight benefits... I'm not sure whose flights the AEGS agents work...

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-07-30 19:22:18 and read 11775 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 50):
I know several Eagle agents who do nothing but ground handle UAX flights and the DO get American flight benefits... I'm not sure whose flights the AEGS agents work...

I think they generally handle auxiliary services like wheelchair pushers. Glad to hear the Eagle agents receive travel privileges.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-07-31 01:59:33 and read 11491 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 35):
Average CEO compensation has increased 1000% since 1950. Companies aren't doing a 1000% better so we are way over paying for executives

Wow good point, its one reason the US is where it is today... almost bankrupt..    a race to the bottom

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-07-31 03:11:41 and read 11434 times.

Quoting hohd (Reply 37):

UA is the master of RJs. I am not surprised 70% of the flights are now non-mainline.

Not surprising when you consider the fact that airlines have wanted to increase frequency but cut capacity over the past 20 years. What you have to accept, although difficult for fanboys, is that within the domestic sphere, legacy carriers are mostly marketing organizations that primarily serve the largest business markets and mega tourist destinations like Florida and Vegas. Other than that, the regional carriers are doing thheavy lifting for the majors.

In the meantime, it is truly a shame that UA is cutting so many mainline jobs. I believe this has happened many times before at AA/NW/DL as well within the past 10 years, and it will happen again in the future. This is just another smashing down of the American worker so as to enrich "investors", which include banks managing 401k portfolios and the wealthy, such as airline executives. Capitalism has its benefits for the golden handful.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: n7371f
Posted 2013-07-31 05:50:46 and read 11350 times.

I thought TUS was farmed out a few years back. United had changed the ticket counter backdrop from UA to UA Express as well.

I also find it interesting that GEG continues to be mainline staffed with a meager 2 flights to DEN. Not even 10 years ago, UA was running 4x SFO, 2x ORD and 3x DEN.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-07-31 07:38:37 and read 11257 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 53):
smashing down of the American worker so as to enrich "investors"

Do you know who the largest institutional investor in the United States of America is?

California Public Employees Retirement System CALPERS for short. The pension funds and 401ks that workers desperately cling to are often the same ones pushing for more efficiency and more profit, which in some cases does put people out of work. Capitalism works for more than just the golden few. "A rising tide lifts all boats", quality of life in the USA today is far better than it has been at almost any point in the past.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-08-01 00:30:43 and read 10925 times.

I thought CALPERS was going broke paying out 100,000 a year ,,payments to thousands of retirees that knew who to milk the system.. It amazing how one generation will stick the next with a huge bill..

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: MTNWEST1979
Posted 2013-08-01 12:28:25 and read 10719 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 54):
I also find it interesting that GEG continues to be mainline staffed with a meager 2 flights to DEN. Not even 10 years ago, UA was running 4x SFO, 2x ORD and 3x DEN.

Same for BOI. But they seem to switch 1 ORD with mainline seasonally.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-08-01 12:55:13 and read 10677 times.

Quoting TW870 (Reply 13):
There is a lot of talk in the media about "restoring the middle class" and "creating jobs". This is one clear, specific example of where the middle class jobs are going. With this deal you will take 250 jobs that pay a relatively decent wage, and replace them with jobs that pay far less.

I do not, however, want to make a negative comment about the actual people who work at outsourced stations, as I see subcontracted customer service agents do efficient, smart work all across the United system.

and yet you're saying that they make less money. Unless you have proof of that you shouldn't make that assumption.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-08-01 17:54:58 and read 10511 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 35):
No, America overpays its executives. It's not a market based system but one that is based off of cronyism. All of these guys serve on each other's boards and collectively decide they are worth far more then they really are.

If you think America overpays executives, then its even more critical the airline industry follow along and not be left lagging with competitive pay, especially for mid-level management as otherwise it will continue to fall ever further behind in its ability to attract and retain talent.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-08-01 18:25:17 and read 10511 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 49):
Delta Global Services, so far as I am aware, are wholly owned by Delta Air Lines. DGS rampers whom I've met have told me that they make $10-11 an hour, and have online flight privileges only -- that is, they can fly standby at the employee rate only on DL or the airline they happen to be handling, and when they do, they are far down on the standby list.

$8.45 is what I made an hour to work at DGS when I was there. Supervisors made $12.50.

You could get raises, but by the time you got the raises, the mainline carrier would decide to hold an RFP for the contract, a new company would come in and take over the contract and you'd reset your seniority and pay with the new company.

Contractors are terrible for employees whether the employees of the contractor realize it or not. There is no security whatsoever, benefits are garbage, and the contractors rotate out enough to keep pushing you at the bottom of the payscale.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-08-01 19:47:09 and read 10365 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 60):
$8.45 is what I made an hour to work at DGS when I was there. Supervisors made $12.50.

How long ago was this? I'm very grateful that my particular job function is covered by a living wage ordinance and I can count on $13.82 per hour.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-01 20:16:58 and read 10351 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 60):
$8.45 is what I made an hour to work at DGS when I was there. Supervisors made $12.50.

From what I only understand, only supervisors and management from DGS have actual DL ID badges. So they got a higher boarding priority (about the same as an active DL employee) with ZED benefits as well. Is this true?

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 60):
You could get raises, but by the time you got the raises, the mainline carrier would decide to hold an RFP for the contract, a new company would come in and take over the contract and you'd reset your seniority and pay with the new company.

That has happened quite a bit where a contract was re-upped for bid and the company who won it wanted to re-hire the staff at a "starting" much lower wage, instead of where there was previously being paid. Makes it bad for the employees who wanted to stick it out. That's the downside of all of this. You can't keep good people who know the job and the systems like that.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 61):
How long ago was this? I'm very grateful that my particular job function is covered by a living wage ordinance and I can count on $13.82 per hour.

I understand the MIA and maybe SFO have a different starting scale. sCO used to have it (for years 1 thru 4) but met in the middle years and everybody topped out the same rate. Is this rate for DGS or DL Ready Reserve?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: iad51fl
Posted 2013-08-01 22:42:56 and read 10269 times.

What upsets me most about this... is how they state the new handler will re-hire some of the affected staff but at starting wages. Then expect them to use the knowledge obtained during their time with the contracted carrier to work the contract. I have even seen some contract handlers hire laid off workers, give them supervisor positions.. then cut the position once they have trained all of the contract handlers staff.

I know a guy in KAVL who has bounced between 3 ground handlers dealing with the same carrier. Each time getting placed at the bottom of the list, with poor pay and even split shifts.

Contract handlers never will be better than the carriers own staff as they have nothing invested in the operation of the airline. I have worked for both airlines and handling companies and the handling companies were some of the worst ran companies I have ever had the displeasure of working with.

When you pay a person just a little more than minimum wage, change their schedule every week with 2 days notice, give them a quick training period where you pencil whip all the sign offs... you get uncaring and uninvested workers.

CE

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-02 07:41:15 and read 10136 times.

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 63):
I know a guy in KAVL who has bounced between 3 ground handlers dealing with the same carrier. Each time getting placed at the bottom of the list, with poor pay and even split shifts.

Some comedian used to have a saying "Here's your sign". If it was that bad, he should've moved industries.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-08-03 07:24:54 and read 9855 times.

Quoting iad51fl (Reply 63):
Contract handlers never will be better than the carriers own staff as they have nothing invested in the operation of the airline. I have worked for both airlines and handling companies and the handling companies were some of the worst ran companies I have ever had the displeasure of working with.

That's an awfully extreme statement, don't you think? Certainly, there are good and bad stations, both company handled and outsourced. When NW outsourced in 2006 or so, the outsourced stations were pretty uniformly lousy. But when flying US today, I'd rather deal with Piedmont or ZW stations that US mainline stations. The staff are almost uniformly nicer and often more competent.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-08-03 08:24:43 and read 9802 times.

Well 45 additional stations are being evaluated by the company for financial and operational performance and decisions to be made to outsource or continue in-house staffing. Sounds like a big tidal wave of outsourcing is about to hit.

This company sucks. Smisek and company is a joke.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-03 10:49:22 and read 9661 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 66):
Well 45 additional stations are being evaluated by the company for financial and operational performance and decisions to be made to outsource or continue in-house staffing. Sounds like a big tidal wave of outsourcing is about to hit.

This company sucks. Smisek and company is a joke.

The industry isn't one you can retire in anymore, unless you are in mid/upper management and have a nice parachute attached.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-08-03 12:30:03 and read 9625 times.

It's a downward spiral at UA. The more they outsource flying to regional carriers and replace experienced customer service personnel with the lowest bidder, the more high fare frequent fliers avoid the airline altogether. The executive geniuses have decided that this is a good business plan.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: rising
Posted 2013-08-03 13:24:27 and read 9536 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
If anything airlines need to pay much more to get the best and brightest out of US business schools and be able attract talent away from other industries.

It's been my experience that the best talent is not motivated by the money.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-03 19:30:42 and read 9358 times.

Quoting rising (Reply 69):
It's been my experience that the best talent is not motivated by the money.

IMO, culture and quality of the business trumps money any day.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: malaysia
Posted 2013-08-04 09:14:40 and read 9153 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 62):
From what I only understand, only supervisors and management from DGS have actual DL ID badges. So they got a higher boarding priority (about the same as an active DL employee) with ZED benefits as well. Is this true?

Yes same priority as mainline DL (parents would also bump a DGS front line worker) and also all DL ZED/ID benefits

But I do not know if things have changed since then, I heard benefits were worse than before?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 65):
I'd rather deal with Piedmont or ZW stations that US mainline stations. The staff are almost uniformly nicer and often more competent.

Yes as long as they are still an "airline" and do get benefits and also work as one small family, so the environment is happier, but if it is some generic handler, its gonna be different.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: N908AW
Posted 2013-08-04 10:46:42 and read 9056 times.

Quoting malaysia (Reply 71):
Yes same priority as mainline DL (parents would also bump a DGS front line worker) and also all DL ZED/ID benefits

But I do not know if things have changed since then, I heard benefits were worse than before?

That is correct. DGS supervisors and higher have standard Delta flight benefits...whereas frontline DGS boards below regional employees (not pass riders). I also believe they board equal to buddies on OO/EV. So this is quite a step down for those ex-Regional Elite people.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-08-04 13:43:55 and read 8960 times.

Quoting malaysia (Reply 71):
Yes as long as they are still an "airline" and do get benefits and also work as one small family, so the environment is happier, but if it is some generic handler, its gonna be different.

I don't necessarily disagree, but most of the regional handling at smaller stations in the US is by "real airlines," not the likes of Swissport.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: KGRB
Posted 2013-08-04 20:55:09 and read 8921 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 43):
This has created issues in some cities where the contractor ground handles multiple companies. I flew UA out of ATW recently, and the inbound flight on EV landed early and they did everything right. However the ground handler in ATW is DGS, who also handles Delta. Delta had a DTW flight departing at the same time the UA flight got into ATW. DGS staffs the station to handle both carriers, so all the people in ATW were busy handling the DL flight. Because of this the EV flight had to wait 20 minutes to get marshalled into the gate. The outbound flight to ORD ended up being delayed as a result of this, and I nearly misconnected in ORD as a result. And in a lot of smaller stations where one ground handler ends up winning all the ground handling contracts...this is becoming the norm.


I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience flying out of ATW! This station has been understaffed since the Regional Elite-to-DGS transition and the turnover rate, like most DGS, stations is quite high. As a result some days can be more challenging than others. I don't think I was on duty for this particular flight (an aircraft waiting for 20 minutes for a gate would definitely stick out in my mind), but I doubt the reason that the DTW flight left first was some kind of DL loyalty. I believe that most of us here put as much effort in handling the UA product as we do with the DL product.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 62):

From what I only understand, only supervisors and management from DGS have actual DL ID badges. So they got a higher boarding priority (about the same as an active DL employee) with ZED benefits as well. Is this true?


You are partially correct; ZED/interline travel is now available to all DGS employees (as it was with Regional Elite), but non-supervisory personnel do fly at a lower standby priority and don't have Delta badges.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 54):
I thought TUS was farmed out a few years back. United had changed the ticket counter backdrop from UA to UA Express as well.


With this latest rebranding, UA has done away with 'United Express' airport signage. It all says 'United' now, regardless of the operator.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-08-05 01:38:12 and read 8907 times.

Is that even Legal ??

not to nitpick but ...one example ..."outsourced" min wage employee puts wrong AOG small parts box on a scheduled flight to fix the broken part on a grounded flight.. but the part he send out is the wrong one   . the Plane is grounded for another 21 hours, at an International Location ?? how much did that cost United ? 20,000 more or less for the 10 to 20 hours it took to get it right... sometimes its not smart to outsource some things.. and it is difficult to do the accounting there is no way they will tag the vendor for those costs, so United "eats it" ..but this is just an Example of "you get what you pay for".. also many of the managers of some of these vendors were fired form Airlines or other ground service providers for exactly the same thing.. also there is extra layer of managers the United managers looking over the vendor managers looking over the low wage Employees ?? One of those groups should go, to save money... so in this case there are about 3 or 4 managers 2 vendor 2 United then the Employee does not make $ sense...and If they determine want to fire him after 50 or 60 hours of Investigations ($4000 to $5000) in Managers time..then " who cares" he/she can easily get another Job making $8 per hour..so Emp looses the $8 per hour job and United is out about 25,000 for the day..

[Edited 2013-08-05 01:55:35]

[Edited 2013-08-05 01:58:19]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-05 02:10:35 and read 8900 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):

Handlers can be held to a host of high performance standards, and face everything from penalties to eventual loss of the contract if they don't uphold service delivery.

except that they aren't.
but they can be.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 7):

Provided that the customer-facing employees (CSRs and such) are adequately trained on the airline's systems, policies and procedures to service customers, especially during IRROPS. It's a lose-lose situation at stations with primarily regional ops and poorly-trained outsourced staff above the wing, as those operations are generally more susceptible to delays/cancellations for ATC and weather issues.

nah thats not needed.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
DGS

I hate the company. its like cancer.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
Well has it come to no mainline employees will ever work for an airline besides pilots and flight attendants.

thats the point. (and some people think that Unions are a bad thing lol.) UA has shown with the last TA they are ready to completely outsource everything. If you guys let them then you just killed it for everyone. Please don't screw up like the mechanics. (thanks to UA and AA....10x AA.....the chances of heavy airframe work every being done in house ever again is probably gone.)

but its not like yalls unions are doing anything. (of course the .gov won't let anyone walk in more)

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 15):

IIRC MQ has a huge ground dept. I believe OO does also.
Comair use to have gound contracts all over then it went to RHS and now i think most of it was picked up by DGS. Gah i hate that company.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 22):
DL has there own employees at ALB, IIRC

uh no. Probably DGS.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-05 07:26:01 and read 8920 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
IIRC MQ has a huge ground dept. I believe OO does also.
Comair use to have gound contracts all over then it went to RHS and now i think most of it was picked up by DGS. Gah i hate that company.

From what I understand, OO ground employees are getting squeezed and having to take paycuts to match DGS and Eagle. Pretty soon, they will be the two biggest (domestically), and a new "race to the bottom" begins by who can do it the cheapest.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
thats the point. (and some people think that Unions are a bad thing lol.) UA has shown with the last TA they are ready to completely outsource everything. If you guys let them then you just killed it for everyone. Please don't screw up like the mechanics. (thanks to UA and AA....10x AA.....the chances of heavy airframe work every being done in house ever again is probably gone.)

That's why that TA had to be turned down. It would have been worse for the entire industry. We have to hold the line on scope. Otherwise we all will be gone sooner or later. I for one rather go down fighting..... It's just not about us, every other workgroup (well, maybe not the pilots) will be affected.

I still don't like the idea of giving money away to your direct competition.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
I hate the company. its like cancer.

And it's spreading fast. And Eagle is trying to match them every step of the way on the race to the bottom.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-05 07:38:59 and read 8898 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
(and some people think that Unions are a bad thing lol.)
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
but its not like yalls unions are doing anything

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, do you believe that given your second point, people are getting the value for their dues? If you assume that a ramper pays ~600 a year in dues (random figure), given 5% interest rate, a 20 year man will have given up about $22,500. The question is, did the union get you that much value? Would you have been better off using that money to pay for your kid (yourself) to go to college?

That's my question, regardless of the good/evil debate, do you believe the dues are worth it?

[Edited 2013-08-05 07:39:39]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-08-05 08:27:19 and read 8905 times.

What is this animosity against ground handlers in US?

3rd party handling is even bigger outside US, and where certainly one don't view them with the same negative light.

Some major airports are even virtually 100% vendor handling where the home hub carrier even does not have its own staff.

From an airlines point of view there often is no compelling case to maintain own staff for such basic (and rather unskilled) repetitive duties can be contracted out.

The US is simply catching up to what much of the world has been doing for decades.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
except that they aren't.
but they can be.

Then shame on the airlines for not managing their vendors.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-05 08:43:08 and read 8900 times.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 79):
What is this animosity against ground handlers in US?

3rd party handling is even bigger outside US, and where certainly one don't view them with the same negative light.

Some major airports are even virtually 100% vendor handling where the home hub carrier even does not have its own staff.

From an airlines point of view there often is no compelling case to maintain own staff for such basic (and rather unskilled) repetitive duties can be contracted out.

The US is simply catching up to what much of the world has been doing for decades.

Because it is a whole lot different here. The aviation industry here in the US is heavily unionized. That affects non union carriers as well, because of the closeness of pay between each carrier. It is governed by the Railway Act, which is why that is hasn't been decimated like other unions. It's about the lack of pay and benefits of the contractors. And stability. You are as only good as your next contract. Read most of the above comments in this thread and you will understand why the hatred. Especially losing your job to some contractor who pays their employees squat with the high turnover.

I understand that for all of the international flights, there are mainly done by ground handlers. Mainly widebody flights. I assume that they pay much better than what the contractors pay for domestic flights. Which are mainly regional jets and some mainline. And I'll bet overseas, they pay more or at least a salary you can live on.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Mercure1
Posted 2013-08-05 09:28:42 and read 8898 times.

It seems that US would be ideal place in world for things like 3rd party airport handling. You have worlds largest service industry base, you have basically the freest labor markets, you have easy barrier of entry for business if you want to form something like a handling company, and you have a huge potential market to service.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
The aviation industry here in the US is heavily unionized.

And you don't think its so in Europe for example? Even a bread baker can be a social collective member.

But yet, vendor airport services are thriving.

The EU even created legislation to ensure even more competitive handling landscape by breaking up formerly near-monopoly handling situations in some counties where you only had a few companies to chose from.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
You are as only good as your next contract.

But is that not heart of competition in any business/industry?

Airlines every day are out fight each others for customers, so why cant they also have flexibility with their own business needs and have companies fighting to earn their business back from airlines in return?

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
It is governed by the Railway Act, which is why that is hasn't been decimated like other unions.

Just by its name, it sound like something from the 1900's, not from the 21st Century.

The world has changed. One side you expect airline to compete in difficult global market against competitors large and small, but at same time you tie one hand behind its back, and say sorry you cant have the flexibility to employ staffing as appropriate.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 80):
losing your job

Sure losing job no fun, but at the end an employee needs to have "value" to the company.

Most airport handling positions are lower skill levels. Maybe value of that position is more closer to $10, not $20 the airline employees member making now?

One thing I realize long time ago, no one is ever underpaid in open market. One received the compensation that society and market place on the service you deliver. Its things like union agreements that distort the valuation of this service.



Anyhow, From what I read it seems the 6 stations mentioned are rather small for United. Its most probably simply not economic to have own staff for such scale. They say they achieve 35% savings by going to service vendor. How can you blame them? If you could save 35% on your business expenses, would you not do the same? (especially when UA airline business is difficult enterprise and have profitability issues).

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-05 10:22:22 and read 8897 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 26):
I can only speak to CVG, but I remember hearing a rumor that they were canning mainline just long enough to kill the mainline ground staff at CVG. There was something in the contract that if no mainline flies to a station for x time, they can dump the mainline handlers and go with an outsourced crew. According to said rumor/theory, they can bring back mainline in some limited capacity and just have it handled by these outsourced staff.

I hope this is true, I'd love seeing mainline UA back at CVG.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: KGRB
Posted 2013-08-05 11:01:13 and read 8895 times.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 75):

Couldn't a mainline employee make the same mistake? I take plenty of bag claims in ATW because a mainline ramper in ORD put the bag on the wrong flight.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 10):
DGS

I hate the company. its like cancer.

I usually respect your posts, but I really don't like your trashing of DGS. There are many DGS employees that are great at what we do, so don't put us in the same category.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flydeltajets
Posted 2013-08-05 12:39:23 and read 8882 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Having worked extensively in the ground handling world, I can tell you ground handlers can provide better performance than inhouse staff many times.

I disagree with that. There are pluses and minuses on both sides but as far as employee productivity, morale and longevity working for a contractor fares far lower than working directly for the airline.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-08-05 12:40:59 and read 8877 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 9):
Why does everyone assume it goes to the lowest bidder? Usually it is not the lowest bidder that wins in these things, but there is compromise between CSat, Cost, operational integrity etc. Most stations have 4 bidders with a range of prices and UA has relationships with most major ground handlers in the US so they know what results they can expect from each.

I agree, these are not always the lowest bidder situations. But also when all things are compared, the lowest bidder usually wins out and is competitive when all things are equal.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-08-05 12:45:44 and read 8881 times.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 81):
It seems that US would be ideal place in world for things like 3rd party airport handling. You have worlds largest service industry base, you have basically the freest labor markets, you have easy barrier of entry for business if you want to form something like a handling company, and you have a huge potential market to service.


  

I agree, I believe the US is indeed and ideal place for such service providers at the airports. Not just for airlines, but for private companies and consortium to run facilities if not an entire airport. We already have a few examples of this.

For whatever reason it has taken a slower time for them to come of age and grow in scale.

One thing I am pretty certain we will also see is companies like Delta and AMR to divest themselves eventually of the handling business also, with these ventures be run by as standalone companies. We've seen this also overseas in many examples were the airlines have dropped such non-core services and sold them off, such as Swissport, SATS, GlobeGround, etc which are no longer tied to their one time airline parents.

As mentioned some of the worlds largest and best reputation airlines contract out handling even at their hub airports quite successfully and no longer need to carry the labor burden on their books.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-05 12:52:56 and read 8911 times.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 81):
Most airport handling positions are lower skill levels. Maybe value of that position is more closer to $10, not $20 the airline employees member making now?

  Being a CSA, or ramp agent, is not a skilled position. The only real "skilled" frontline positions in the aviation industry are pilots and mechanics.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flydeltajets
Posted 2013-08-05 14:17:26 and read 8885 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 87):
 Being a CSA, or ramp agent, is not a skilled position. The only real "skilled" frontline positions in the aviation industry are pilots and mechanics.

Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2013-08-05 14:31:14 and read 8879 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 86):
As mentioned some of the worlds largest and best reputation airlines contract out handling even at their hub airports quite successfully and no longer need to carry the labor burden on their books

How efficient would a outsourced hub like ATL,ORD, or DFW work? Look I have backed up outsourced stations here before and I understand what DGS and AE do but there is a limit on how much labor can be done by a third party company. I worked for a third party company in a G4 hub and everyday was a new cluster.

Besides how much are these companies pay employees in Europe? Because in the US the pay is usually not that good. The company I worked for was paying 9 an hour when I started, they lowered it now to 8.50 or 8.75..

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-08-05 14:33:48 and read 8869 times.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Well if you let market supply/demand determine the pay for many airport positions in the US, I suspect they could likely fall, as they are large pool of people that can and are willing to work such jobs.

The lower the skill and education requirements, the lower the barrier for entry and the larger group of potential workers.

Its defying market realities to ask for $20 in a job that in reality might not be worth more than $10.

Nature might be cruel, but unless an employee brings something of higher value to the table, the proposition of earning relative high wage is simply unrealistic.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2013-08-05 14:37:01 and read 8881 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 22):
DL has there own employees at ALB, IIRC

uh no. Probably DGS.

AW employees are DL... No clue who handles the ramp...

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-08-05 14:42:51 and read 8880 times.

Yes somehow I doubt Euro Rampers are making $8 per hour.. with no health care

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-08-05 14:43:54 and read 8880 times.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 89):
How efficient would a outsourced hub like ATL,ORD, or DFW work?

Why should it not work. Its simply scale.

Just like how the carriers to break their hub handling into different teams whether by terminal, concourse, work area etc, the same thing would be done with a handler.

If AA can handle DFW today, a future AA Ground Services, or ACME ground services would follow the same working model.

Its truly not rocket science.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-05 14:53:12 and read 8890 times.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Pretty much anyone can do the job... CSA and ramp agents (and F/As for that matter but that's really not relevant to this discussion) are in the same category of workers as retail sales persons, restaurant staff, receptionists, etc.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-08-05 14:54:56 and read 8884 times.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 89):
Besides how much are these companies pay employees in Europe? Because in the US the pay is usually not that good.

Its not that high in Europe either. Its certainly lower than what an airline would pay for self employees.

Also with high social cost in Europe, it benefits airlines not to have much staff. Contracting is a double benefit as it reduce your direct labor cost, but also reduces your social tax obligations in many cases.

Having a vendor relationship is often cleaner. No need to deal with 1000's of employees. Simply a single point of contact with vendor management instead and a bill at the end of the month. If you dont like the service, you put the contract up for bid.

Most European airlines utilize handling agents at outstations these days, and some do so also at their home airports. Also very common in middle east and far east now also carriers to utilize vendors to service their activity.

If things were so bad some claim, this would never have gotten to the size it has. Globes top airlines in customer service openly embrace such working relationships.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-05 15:41:50 and read 8888 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 90):
Well if you let market supply/demand determine the pay for many airport positions in the US, I suspect they could likely fall, as they are large pool of people that can and are willing to work such jobs.

The lower the skill and education requirements, the lower the barrier for entry and the larger group of potential workers.

Its defying market realities to ask for $20 in a job that in reality might not be worth more than $10.

Nature might be cruel, but unless an employee brings something of higher value to the table, the proposition of earning relative high wage is simply unrealistic.

Many people would be drawn to the job because of benefits. Let's be realistic. The ramp jobs, and even CSAs in the airport, are going to put their bodies through a lot of repetitive work that does lead to OJIs. In order to keep people in those positions you need to pay a fair wage and also mix it with benefits. So how many outsourcing firms provide free flights, a quality low deductible insurance plan, and a wage that would at least cover the most basic living expenses?

Value goes both ways. Yes the employee must bring value to the company, but if the company doesn't bring value to the position it is going to be filled with crap talent that will provide crap performance. I'm not saying $20 is justified, but at some point you can go too low.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 94):
Pretty much anyone can do the job... CSA and ramp agents (and F/As for that matter but that's really not relevant to this discussion) are in the same category of workers as retail sales persons, restaurant staff, receptionists, etc.

Exactly how much experience do you have working an airline ramp or manning the counter? Especially after a diversion event or mass cancellations. Enlighten us.

Honestly the amount of training that goes into knowing the systems and dealing with unique situations on the fly probably make the entry level airline employee a bit more skilled than you typical waiter. When the stuff hits the fan experience and the ability to take care of the customers becomes number one. How well do you think a situation where a few flights cancel is going to be handled with a bunch of low experience outsourced agents?

I'm curious that you would even open the door to link inflight/FAs to the same level as a waiter or receptionist. I am really interested in hearing your direct experiences with the job functions and knowledge requirements of these positions and how you arrived at the conclusions you have.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-05 15:54:06 and read 8879 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 96):
I'm not saying $20 is justified, but at some point you can go too low.

The airline compensation scheme has long been "underpaid, but overcompensated" in the sense that your take home pay may be less than market, but your overall comp is generally higher. But now we're getting to the point again where both are above market, at all levels of the company, not just at the airport.

Even before it was "why would I leave my job for a 5-10k raise elsewhere when I used 30k worth of flight bene's last year? Plus 401k matching, plus good healthcare, etc."

[Edited 2013-08-05 15:54:55]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-08-05 16:09:23 and read 8888 times.

Union wages are not the cause of most airlines problems. Legacy airlines are bloated, inefficient organizations which require managerial overhaul from top to bottom. However, it's easier to cut costs by simply whacking a few hundred employees at the bottom. It's immediate gratification. According to Forbes Magazine, the most profitable companies are the most efficient and well managed. They generally don't have the lowest labor costs. Southwest Airlines is a good example. IIRC the CEO makes around $400,000, and I guarantee he doesn't have a chauffeur driving him around, or a penthouse apartment paid for by the company. On the other hand, United CEO probably makes a couple million in salary, plus millions in stock options, and perks that cost the company millions. There are probably a few hundred executives that also make millions in salary, plus thousands who make six figure salaries, as well. I know the station manager of a relatively small UA station earns over $100,000 per year. Can you say he's worth it? Lee Iacocca, the former CEO of Chrysler once said "I don't mind paying union wages because they're the people buying our cars."

[Edited 2013-08-05 16:10:05]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: UnitedTristar
Posted 2013-08-05 16:42:50 and read 8926 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 98):
I know the station manager of a relatively small UA station earns over $100,000 per year.

I have friends at UA who have applied for those jobs and told me the salary range, and let me tell you, they don't make near that much!

-m

  

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-05 17:06:41 and read 8901 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 96):
Exactly how much experience do you have working an airline ramp or manning the counter? Especially after a diversion event or mass cancellations. Enlighten us.

I worked as a CSA for nearly two and a half years... Can it be stressful? Sure, but it's hardly a difficult position.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-08-05 17:42:25 and read 8882 times.

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 99):
I have friends at UA who have applied for those jobs and told me the salary range, and let me tell you, they don't make near that much!

Exactly, no way your bringing in 6 figures at a small outstation.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: DC10CO
Posted 2013-08-05 18:43:02 and read 8916 times.

Having started my career with a regional airline and crossing over to a mainline carrier, I can honestly say that there is a distinct difference in both the quality of the work and the caliber of persons working for each respective work group. Granted, there are good apples and bad apples in every place you work, and there are very many excellent professionals who work for regional carriers. However in general, much like executives, the higher salary and compensation package attracts better talent.

While the position does not require as much skill as it used to, there is still more to the job than just punching buttons and printing boarding passes. Do you really trust Joe Schmoe who got hired 3 weeks ago making $7.25 an hour to handle Dangerous Goods and be responsible for aircraft security? Is he really interested in providing you the best possible customer experience?

I do believe there is a place for mainline employees, but I also believe that there is a lot that we as employees need to do to make ourselves competitive. A lot of agents need to realize that they work for the company, not the other way around and that the company doesn't owe them anything. There has to be an agreement that is both cost effective for the company and beneficial to us front line coworkers.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Thank you!

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-08-05 18:43:46 and read 8902 times.

Outsource leadership! Replace them with a vendor that can do it cheaper! Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current CEOs. Outsource management! Most are overpaid. Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current managers. Most say these are skilled jobs that deserve the inflated salaries..... However, their performance leads a company into negative cash flow. But, some of you will stroke yourselves here, telling everyone that you are an excellent manager, and a great leader, and that you deserve your salary. In the next sentence, you applaud outsourcing, and agree that a ramper shouldn't earn more than $10 an hour. The next sentence, you belittle unions, and so on. The reason workers in this industry go union is to protect ourselves from idiots who think they are valuable, think they are great, and see us as no value.

Many managers have jumped my outsourcing of management and leadership ideas. Why? If you blame a ramp workgroup as the reason for the companies loss, why not look in the mirror for a minute? What value has your management and leadership brought to the bottom line? Why can't your workgroup be replaced so easily, since your leadership workgroup is not cutting the mustard? Will you flash your Harvard degree at us, and the awards you have nailed into the walls of your office? Come up with why you deserve your job, and how hard you work? Illustrate pictures of yourself climbing the ladder? Pat yourself on the shoulder and tell the soon to be replaced workers that you were a major part of the airlines failure? Why don't you be held accountable for an airlines losses? You are part of the higher ladder, and defined by all as the upper ladder.

I suggest most of the leaders and managers step off the ladder, and accept the truth. The ramper or customer service agent are not the cause of losses. The cause of losses lie directly on those who make those big bucks. I have seen airlines like US Airways turn from losses, to gold, without outsourcing. Leaders like Doug Parker earn their salaries, and lead the company to profits. Leaders like Parker who prefer his stations staffed by his own, and even slipping his workers a sliver of gold when goals are met. Yes, Doug Parker is a good leader, and so are a handful of others. Corporate greed is what has become of the industry.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-08-05 18:54:09 and read 8900 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 103):
Replace them with a vendor that can do it cheaper! Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current CEOs.

I'm not pro- or anti- worker or management per se, but this comment is really not realistic.

In the airline industry as in the rest of the economy, it's really easy for the line worker to criticize CEOs and say they're overpaid, underworked, and could be easily replaced. In some cases, that may well be true. But painting with such a broad brush isn't accurate.

That's as laughable as the equally-ridiculous notion that all employees are simply numbers on a spreadsheet that can be easily replaced at will. Both statements are simply detached from reality. Gate agents don't have to stand up in front of a Board of Directors and an annual shareholders meeting and answer for the company's financial performance - they're job is often protected by a union contract and they can't be fired at will if shareholders aren't happy. Ramp workers don't have to sign and certify SEC filings under penalty of incarceration - nobody asks them to attest to the best of their knowledge that hundreds of pages of financial statements and legalese are accurate.

As the saying goes - "if it was so easy, everybody would be doing it."

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-08-05 19:20:36 and read 8903 times.

While I agree with you.... There is common argument here. Ramp agents and gate agents do not have to stand in front of investors or sign off SEC documents. They do however have to sign off that the plane they sent out is loaded properly, and counts are accurate. These workers stand in front of the money that comes in, and handle the hardest part of running the airline. Investors and CEOs can't do that, nor would they ever step into a hostile enviornment without their bodyguards. Ground workers would be more than happy to be financially responsible, than be responsible for the integrity of the planes they send out every dag. I know I would rather stand in front of an angry board of directors, than an angry mob of passengers any day. Or, face a mob of very angry family members demanding justice because you miscalculated and placed their families in jeopardy.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-08-05 19:54:31 and read 8905 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
They do however have to sign off that the plane they sent out is loaded properly, and counts are accurate.

Writing that there are 37 passengers and 54 bags aboard on a release and signing an SEC filing aren't even close to analogous. Sorry. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-08-05 20:12:26 and read 8893 times.

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 20):

Do you expect to make a living and have a family being a ramper? We need to live and see the present. You can't ask for skilled wage, if your work is unskilled.

Yep, let's just let the peons wither and rot.

How disgusting it is to think that people that perform necessary work shouldn't be allowed to make a career out of it, or make a liveable wage just because they don't have a college degree.

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
Ramp workers don't have to sign and certify SEC filings under penalty of incarceration - nobody asks them to attest to the best of their knowledge that hundreds of pages of financial statements and legalese are accurate.

And ramp workers aren't asking for a 6 figure salary.

By the way, I do sign and certify documents that, if made in gross error and causes an incident, I could get fined 5 figures for (on top of losing my job)... assuming nobody is injured or killed... in which case I go to jail.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
Writing that there are 37 passengers and 54 bags aboard on a release and signing an SEC filing aren't even close to analogous.

Correct. One could lead to a nightmare of numbers and cause people losing money on what is essentially a gamble, the other could kill hundreds.

It's nice to know the value people place on themselves relative to what basically amounts to legal mumbo-jumbo that helps protect gamblers.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-08-05 20:19:18 and read 8898 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
And ramp workers aren't asking for a 6 figure salary.

So you're suggesting that a CEO with fiduciary responsibility for delivering value to shareholders and keeping a multi-billion-dollar corporation a going concern doesn't justify a six-figure salary? From my perspective, that kind of education, training, experience and responsibility more than warrants that kind of money - particularly at a company as complex as an airline.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
By the way, I do sign and certify documents that, if made in gross error and causes an incident, I could get fined 5 figures for (on top of losing my job)... assuming nobody is injured or killed... in which case I go to jail.

As I said. I was not making the point that CEOs do everything and line workers don't. The point I was making was quite the opposite - that both do meaningful and important work and have critical responsibilities. However, suggestions that one does everything while the other is replaceable is ridiculous - either way.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-08-05 20:19:44 and read 8899 times.

Signing an SEC form carries much less water than signing away on 147 lives. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.  

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-08-05 20:42:45 and read 7513 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 109):
Signing an SEC form carries much less water than signing away on 147 lives. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.

Yeah but there are millions of people that can be thought to fill out and sign a load manifest.

A much smaller group to lead a multi-billion dollar corporations.

Its the same in every industry.

At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: N353SK
Posted 2013-08-05 21:26:54 and read 7472 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
Writing that there are 37 passengers and 54 bags aboard on a release and signing an SEC filing aren't even close to analogous. Sorry. I shouldn't have to explain the difference to you.

You're absolutely correct. If an executive screws up a 10-K he may wind up fired or in court. If a ramper screws up a bag count, his error could cause fatalities!

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-08-05 21:33:50 and read 7459 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 110):

At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.

And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

I am noticing that the excuses constantly change when an argument falls flat on it's face. One person claims that "unskilled" workers don't deserve a liveable wage, and we refute that. Then it becomes a claim that the importance of the work should determine wages. Then when that's refuted, it becomes the personal liability that should determine wages. When that's refuted, it becomes the rarity of a skill that becomes the deciding factor.

The reason we have the SEC, OSHA, unions, and minimum wages is because those at the top have a history of exploiting those at the bottom. So forgive me if I don't really care much for what they say labor is worth... because as we've seen in this thread, when all the BS arguments are deconstructed it comes down to them thinking people who do labor are worthless.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-05 21:36:05 and read 7476 times.

To KGRB: First an apology. I sorry if I have offended you or any of your co-workers in any way. I didn't trash DGS. Read comment 76 by Delta1011man.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):
I hate the company. its like cancer.

I just added that the cancer is spreading because after all of this, DGS & Eagle will be the two biggest domestic handlers, and if DGS puts out a bid, AE or someone else will undercut you guys and then what happens. I think the regional pilots are starting the results from all of the whipsawing. But there will be someone like the likes of Gojets that will undercut everyone, and that applies the same on the ground, including you and I. We don't need a race to the bottom.

My beef (and still is) is AA & DL indirectly working UA flights. No animus towards you in any way. You're just trying to make a living like me.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 81):
And you don't think its so in Europe for example? Even a bread baker can be a social collective member.

But yet, vendor airport services are thriving.

But in Europe, one can go on strike. And it seems that has happened frequently. Here in the US, we can't. The Railway Act prevents that. POTUS has to approve it as a "last resort".

Quoting brilondon (Reply 85):
I agree, these are not always the lowest bidder situations. But also when all things are compared, the lowest bidder usually wins out and is competitive when all things are equal.

About 98 percent of the time.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 95):
Also with high social cost in Europe, it benefits airlines not to have much staff. Contracting is a double benefit as it reduce your direct labor cost, but also reduces your social tax obligations in many cases.

Having a vendor relationship is often cleaner. No need to deal with 1000's of employees. Simply a single point of contact with vendor management instead and a bill at the end of the month. If you dont like the service, you put the contract up for bid.

The Wal-Marting of the air. That's why I refuse to shop there. Bring all wages downward. And you and I pay for all of the aftermath like health care; food stamps; lack of tax revenue due to sweetheart deals. That's the bottom line. I don't want to get into a rant about them here on this thread.

Quoting azstar (Reply 98):
I know the station manager of a relatively small UA station earns over $100,000 per year.

They don't get paid a lot for a small station. Neither the supervisors get paid a whole lot for all the stress they deal with. Definitely not 100K.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 103):
Outsource leadership! Replace them with a vendor that can do it cheaper! Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current CEOs. Outsource management! Most are overpaid. Plenty of skilled workers that could dance around current managers. Most say these are skilled jobs that deserve the inflated salaries..... However, their performance leads a company into negative cash flow. But, some of you will stroke yourselves here, telling everyone that you are an excellent manager, and a great leader, and that you deserve your salary. In the next sentence, you applaud outsourcing, and agree that a ramper shouldn't earn more than $10 an hour. The next sentence, you belittle unions, and so on. The reason workers in this industry go union is to protect ourselves from idiots who think they are valuable, think they are great, and see us as no value.

Thank You for those comments. The nerve of some people who don't want us to make some sort of living.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 103):
I suggest most of the leaders and managers step off the ladder, and accept the truth. The ramper or customer service agent are not the cause of losses. The cause of losses lie directly on those who make those big bucks. I have seen airlines like US Airways turn from losses, to gold, without outsourcing. Leaders like Doug Parker earn their salaries, and lead the company to profits. Leaders like Parker who prefer his stations staffed by his own, and even slipping his workers a sliver of gold when goals are met. Yes, Doug Parker is a good leader, and so are a handful of others. Corporate greed is what has become of the industry.

Don't quite sing Parker's praises yet. He may have learned under Crandall (like Jeff has under Gordon - but he hasn't heeded anything that Bethune has done) but he still has a merger to do. But he wanted to get in front of the labor issue by dealing with AA's unions and getting MOU's. But he hasn't dealt with his own house yet. His own unions have to have deals too. And the US staff will want parity with their AA counterparts, which means pay raises. Let's see what happens first.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 110):
At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.

Too bad we can't fail upward............

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-05 23:43:24 and read 7375 times.

I really wish vendor/ground handler employees would receive flight benefits from the airline they contract with. DGS gets Delta benefits (As someone stated above) and Eagle gets AA benefits but that's about it. There are probably half a dozen (maybe more) ground handling companies in the US where employees get NO flight benefits. Flight benefits really don't cost the contractee (ie airline) anything and improve employee moral, performance and retention rates at the ground handlers. Once you've had flight benefits it's pretty hard to live without them!  

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-08-06 02:35:34 and read 7317 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 113):
The Wal-Marting of the air. That's why I refuse to shop there. Bring all wages downward. And you and I pay for all of the aftermath like health care; food stamps; lack of tax revenue due to sweetheart deals. That's the bottom line. I don't want to get into a rant about them here on this thread.

I agree. And the owners of Wal-Mart are multi billionaires.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-08-06 03:08:34 and read 7310 times.

Quoting malaysia (Reply 71):
Yes as long as they are still an "airline" and do get benefits and also work as one small family, so the environment is happier, but if it is some generic handler, its gonna be different.

I'd have to agree.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 91):
AW employees are DL... No clue who handles the ramp...

B/W is DGS. They're actually pretty good, just like RDU.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 97):
Even before it was "why would I leave my job for a 5-10k raise elsewhere when I used 30k worth of flight bene's last year? Plus 401k matching, plus good healthcare, etc."

And "why would I leave my 8hr paying job and only work 4 to an 8hr paying job working 8". I'm sorry but I loved every minute I worked the ramp. There were days when I worked for what seemed like a full shift and I felt it at the end of the day. But then there were many days were I would work 2 or maybe 3 flights. Then there's the downtime between flights. You can't beat it.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 113):
My beef (and still is) is AA & DL indirectly working UA flights. No animus towards you in any way. You're just trying to make a living like me.

Let's not forget that UA is allowing this as well. They're paying DGS/AE (thus DL/AA).

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 114):
I really wish vendor/ground handler employees would receive flight benefits from the airline they contract with. DGS gets Delta benefits (As someone stated above) and Eagle gets AA benefits but that's about it. There are probably half a dozen (maybe more) ground handling companies in the US where employees get NO flight benefits. Flight benefits really don't cost the contractee (ie airline) anything and improve employee moral, performance and retention rates at the ground handlers. Once you've had flight benefits it's pretty hard to live without them!

Comes down to the airline itself. DL allocates what's called "vendor passes" to station managers to be given to the contractors. They are essentially buddy passes and have the same priority as regular employee buddy passes given the family and friends.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-06 07:37:07 and read 7211 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 98):
On the other hand, United CEO probably makes a couple million in salary, plus millions in stock options, and perks that cost the company millions. There are probably a few hundred executives that also make millions in salary

Jeff's salary is publicly available. He has the highest salary in the company and it's $975k. There are no employees at the company with a 7 figure salary, not sure how many make more than 100k, but it's probably not as many as you think, afterall, the pilot group has many times over the number of millionaires that management does.

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
I'm not pro- or anti- worker or management per se, but this comment is really not realistic.

You must be familiar with his posting history right? He's the same guy who rants on about arresting Sean Menke whenever people will listen. Better to smile, nod and go about your business.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-08-06 12:11:00 and read 7035 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

Saying that a ramper and a CEO aren't analogous isn't really "disdain and contempt." Both should be paid what the market will bear. If that's $10,000 for the CEO and $100,000 for the ramper, fine. If it's $10,000 for the ramper and $100,000 for the CEO, fine. My point was simply that it's foolish to compare the "value" of a ramper and a CEO because the jobs are so different. I'm not sure why that bothers people so.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-08-06 13:34:39 and read 6946 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 118):
Both should be paid what the market will bear. If that's $10,000

This is what I'm talking about.

NOBODY should be making only $10K/year in a full-time job. I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

And just so everyone knows, my comments were based on this crap:

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 20):

Do you expect to make a living and have a family being a ramper?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-06 13:43:47 and read 6930 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
NOBODY should be making only $10K/year in a full-time job. I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

Um... Nobody is making $10k/year in a full time job... If you worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage you'd gross $15,080 a year.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-06 13:44:56 and read 6925 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
NOBODY should be making only $10K/year in a full-time job. I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

As determined by your federal elected officials, that lower limit is: 7.25*40*50 = $14,500. Your mileage may vary depending on your state, in Illinois it's 8.25*40*50 = $16,500.
*Assumes you take 2 weeks unpaid vacation.

Do I think that is right? No. But lets not pretend that anyone who gets a UA pay-stub works for minimum wage.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-08-06 13:58:22 and read 6913 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, do you believe that given your second point, people are getting the value for their dues? If you assume that a ramper pays ~600 a year in dues (random figure), given 5% interest rate, a 20 year man will have given up about $22,500. The question is, did the union get you that much value?

Over the course of 20 years, that union employee will make more than $22,500 more than someone working for a non-union employee in the same job.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Everyone is fine with paying someone else as little as possible. As long as it isn't them getting the shaft, it's ok.

Quoting commavia (Reply 108):
So you're suggesting that a CEO with fiduciary responsibility for delivering value to shareholders and keeping a multi-billion-dollar corporation a going concern doesn't justify a six-figure salary?

Six figures? Sure. The problem is when they get 7 or 8 figures largely by reducing the pay of the people at the bottom end of the scale.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
The reason we have the SEC, OSHA, unions, and minimum wages is because those at the top have a history of exploiting those at the bottom.

It's only class warfare when the people on the bottom start fighting back.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 118):
Both should be paid what the market will bear.

That would be fine if both groups had an equal input on what the "market rate" actually was. The problem is that one group has their thumb on the scale, skewing the numbers.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-06 14:12:49 and read 6891 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 122):
Over the course of 20 years, that union employee will make more than $22,500 more than someone working for a non-union employee in the same job.

Proof? At 35 years that amount (much due to compounding interest) is over $55,000. Also, I believe union dues for the IAM are more like $850 for the average UA employee, not 600. At which point at 35 years you'd be out ~81,000.

I used an interest rate of 5% because this way I'm not giving you crazy numbers.

If you use the post-1929 crash average DJIA return on your money, 10.6% that means that a 35 year guy would have "paid" through lost wages and returns, $292,638, assuming an $850 per year due.

At 20 years, that figure is $57,653.

So someone who retires from the ramp at United after a full career will have "paid" the IAM over a quarter million dollars.

[Edited 2013-08-06 14:15:08]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-08-06 15:24:00 and read 6839 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 68):
It's a downward spiral at UA. The more they outsource flying to regional carriers and replace experienced customer service personnel with the lowest bidder, the more high fare frequent fliers avoid the airline altogether. The executive geniuses have decided that this is a good business plan.

The company is bullying us into signing the next contact.

Union rep said the company is nothing short of pissed by the failure of the contract this spring/summer. The rep said because of that, they are now looking at outsourcing 45 stations. Sounds like retaliation to me....

I'm still voting no on the next contract if it is a similar piece of toilet paper they handed us earlier this year. I am not signing away on my job. Pay = Fine. Benefits = Fine. OT rules = Fine. Holidays = Fine. Authorizing the company to outsource thousands of jobs = Not fine.

I encourage all my brothers and sisters in the union to also vote no on this next TA, if it has the same or similar provisions for "job protection". Our union is not doing anything about this, but we can still vote it down.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-06 16:11:07 and read 6797 times.

I agree. If the contract comes back as the same, it will be shot down again. They are retaliating against us because we overwhelmingly voted NO on that last TA. We would have kissed our jobs good-bye since there was no protection in it at all.

So they will go after the smaller stations now. Once gone, the hubs will be next. Thousands of decent paying middle class jobs gone.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-08-06 17:52:39 and read 6741 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 122):
That would be fine if both groups had an equal input on what the "market rate" actually was. The problem is that one group has their thumb on the scale, skewing the numbers.

If UA rampers--or whatever other workgroup--have done a poor job collectively bargaining, they have only themselves and their elected union representatives to blame.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
I'm not suggesting we set upper limits, but there needs to a be a lower limit, a minimum wage that is reasonable.

Surely, you're not suggesting that United Airlines should set the minimum wage, are you? "Minimum wage" could well be the answer to "what is the market rate?" -- but if that is the answer, the minimum wage needs to be set elsewhere.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-08-06 19:45:54 and read 6680 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 123):
Proof?

The pay scales at non-union ground handling companies should be all the proof you need. hell, it's the entire point of this topic.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-08-06 20:05:39 and read 6647 times.

I think it is time to work to rule. The union should also send a few warning shots at the top brass. I saw the contract offer UA made, and I would not have been amused. I certainly understand the workgroups frustration. Smisek may have iron balls, but the workers have iron bats.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-06 20:57:56 and read 6625 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, do you believe that given your second point, people are getting the value for their dues? If you assume that a ramper pays ~600 a year in dues (random figure), given 5% interest rate, a 20 year man will have given up about $22,500. The question is, did the union get you that much value? Would you have been better off using that money to pay for your kid (yourself) to go to college?

um yes. United has made it clear what they want. If they didn't have the IAM they would just revisit the Delta plan in the 90s. Farm it all out. Delta saw it fail at a hub and stopped, United's management is clearly stupid enough not to care.
Now, we will have to see if the IAM gets its head out of its ass and gets a good contract. (I generally hate that union so I would be the one going for an In-house)

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 78):
That's my question, regardless of the good/evil debate, do you believe the dues are worth it?

Yes. In almost every work group that is union they have SCOPE. Delta is building that pretty hangar in Mexico, my job could be gone tomorrow. They say they won't, but they said overhauls wouldn't go, Dallas had amazing numbers and tampa was safe now that dallas is gone.
they did all that within a year. Sadly I have to many coworkers who, apparently enjoy getting laid off and keep believe its the old Delta and because Anderson sits at Mr Woolman's desk he cares about his employees like Mr. Woolmen did.


And my problem isn't the company. They are out to make money, its labor's job to protect itself. Delta mainline ramp employees are doing a great job hurting themselves, they constantly allow ex mainline stations to be worked by a Delta company.
But UNION DUES OMGGGG I would be more than happy to go the route of United's mechanics, more money(IIRC its about 250 bucks a month AFTER dues), lower health care and more paid time off. They make more than a Delta mechanic before and after Union dues. (they do however allow way too much outsourcing but that is part of the way they look at things, long and drawn out, way OT....I'd be happy to explain more in a PM if you wish)

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 77):
From what I understand, OO ground employees are getting squeezed and having to take paycuts to match DGS and Eagle. Pretty soon, they will be the two biggest (domestically), and a new "race to the bottom" begins by who can do it the cheapest.

probably. Everytime you see a Delta mainline ramp employee make sure you thank them.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 79):
Then shame on the airlines for not managing their vendors.

happens.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 91):
AW employees are DL... No clue who handles the ramp...

I mean below. 9 times out of ten its done outside and by DGS

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 89):
DFW work?

Ask your company. they gladly sent it to DGS when it was a hub. It took the merger to bring it back to mainline. sad

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 93):
Why should it not work. Its simply scale

again, ask Delta. It has been done. They have generally been going the opposite, ATL and CVG are all mainline, as is LAX.
MSP,DTW and LGA (no idea on JFK) are however still infected by DGS
They did however send Dallas to DGS. The plan was for the other three hubs to follow then slowly pick apart the network, kind of like cutting the head of a snake, but backed off. Could have been the fear of a union vote or could have been a complete failure.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):

And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

this.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 113):

My beef (and still is) is AA & DL indirectly working UA flights. No animus towards you in any way. You're just trying to make a living like me.

not part of DGS. Trust me, I'm with your brother. I'm pulling for yall but i have little faith in your Union
same for your maintenance side of the house.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 110):

At the end, life is like a pyramid. Lots of masses to do the work on the bottom, and fewer and fewer qualified as you go up the structure.

I'm qualified to be a lot higher than I am, but why would I want a job that will end up making me piss on the people below me. Thankfully I was rasied better. I wish more of y'all had parents that were worth a crap.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 116):
B/W is DGS. They're actually pretty good, just like RDU.

smh.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 116):

Let's not forget that UA is allowing this as well. They're paying DGS/AE (thus DL/AA).

Again its the employees and the government faults. We need more APAs and Eastern IAM and NWAMFAs and less ALPA, IAM, TWU and IBTs.
But the government has to let people walk. (but they don't care about the middle class, they have made it painfully clear.)

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 120):
Um... Nobody is making $10k/year in a full time job... If you worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage you'd gross $15,080 a year.

  really?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-06 23:40:04 and read 6550 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
How disgusting it is to think that people that perform necessary work shouldn't be allowed to make a career out of it

You can make a career out of it if you really want to, just don't complain about the pay if you choose to remain in a lower-skilled position. If someone working as a cashier at Burger King doesn't want to make their career beyond being a cashier, why should I feel sorry for them when they complain about the crappy pay? That's not disgusting, that's life.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
or make a liveable wage just because they don't have a college degree.

If you don't take the time to invest in yourself (not just a college degree) to make yourself a greater asset to the company, then you're willingly putting yourself in a position of not being able to command a "liveable wage" salary.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 107):
Correct. One could lead to a nightmare of numbers and cause people losing money on what is essentially a gamble, the other could kill hundreds.


...and one can only be done by a limited workforce of educated people and the other could be done by millions and millions.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
And the people who are (or aspire) to be in the upper echelons often look down upon the "masses" with disdain and contempt, as we have seen in this thread.

I have no contempt for them, only contempt at the idea that I should feel bad that lower-skilled workers receive correspondingly lower pay.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 112):
One person claims that "unskilled" workers don't deserve a liveable wage, and we refute that.

You've done absolutely nothing to refute that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 119):
And just so everyone knows, my comments were based on this crap:

It's not crap, what responsible person with a family to support refuses to better themselves or work to advance themselves to a higher-skilled position and then complains when, surprise surprise, they discover they're unable to support themselves at a lower-skill job?

Quoting silentbob (Reply 122):
That would be fine if both groups had an equal input on what the "market rate" actually was.

Neither have input in the market rate, the market rate is determined by the number of people willing and able to do the job and the demand for the job.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 129):
I'm qualified to be a lot higher than I am, but why would I want a job that will end up making me piss on the people below me. Thankfully I was rasied better. I wish more of y'all had parents that were worth a crap.

Yeah, sure, EVERYBODY above you pisses on those below them while NOBODY in your position ever pisses on anyone below them  

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-06 23:48:16 and read 6543 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 130):
Yeah, sure, EVERYBODY above you pisses on those below them while NOBODY in your position ever pisses on anyone below them

don't think I said everyone does. Care to point out that point.

you mad bro?  

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-08-07 06:18:54 and read 6446 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 129):

smh.

So, they can't be good at what they do because they don't have a Delta PPR?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-07 07:32:12 and read 6408 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 124):
Our union is not doing anything about this, but we can still vote it down.
Quoting silentbob (Reply 127):
The pay scales at non-union ground handling companies should be all the proof you need. hell, it's the entire point of this topic.

Exactly, so how many of those stations has the union managed to protect? You pay them your dues, and they sell you out anyway.

Your real argument should be, what are the required qualifications for the job, then what does the average person at those quals make in the US. The difference between the two is the theoretical difference between them. I'd argue though that at this point all the union is trying to do is save its money makers with lots of membership (the hubs) and set the outstations adrift.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 128):
I think it is time to work to rule. The union should also send a few warning shots at the top brass. I saw the contract offer UA made, and I would not have been amused. I certainly understand the workgroups frustration. Smisek may have iron balls, but the workers have iron bats.

??? The union approved the TA same as management. Who do you think the real enemy is? Union brass make up half of the opposing force.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-08-07 11:32:11 and read 6307 times.

RDH3E, the top brass of the union can make suggestions until they are blue in the face. However, the members have the ultimate say. A union is only as strong as its membership. In this case, the membership carries the iron bats. UA leadership has pushed its workers hard.

This industry has unions, because the top brass of the airlines give its workers no choice. I fully support the workers of UA, and hope they get an offer worth accepting. Otherwise, Smisek may be facing a big showdown.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-08-07 19:36:41 and read 6172 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 105):
Investors and CEOs can't do that, nor would they ever step into a hostile enviornment without their bodyguards. Ground workers would be more than happy to be financially responsible, than be responsible for the integrity of the planes they send out every dag. I know I would rather stand in front of an angry board of directors, than an angry mob of passengers any day. Or, face a mob of very angry family members demanding justice because you miscalculated and placed their families in jeopardy.

I don't see how the screwing up of putting luggage on an aircraft and not being able to give weight figures with those bags that are weighed at the counter is the same as making the decisions that keep you employed. I could see how you think that you could be a CEO, but you by your posts have alot to learn about running a multi billion dollar airline. I am not saying that you are not bright but it is evident by what you say that you have not the education to run the airline and to make the decisions necessary to run the company. The baggage guy rarely if ever is the one answering questions after an accident. I have never seen that.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-08-07 19:40:29 and read 6176 times.

If we're going to get outsourced anyway, what does it matter if we keep voting it down. If we signed the last one, we'd be outsourced right now.

The company cannot wait to outsource, they are literally salivating at the mouth to outsource. (While we are still profitable and have yet to realize full merger synergies and cost efficiencies)

So for us in the outstations:

Option 1) Sign the contract that encouraged outsourcing

Option 2) Keep rejecting contracts and get outsourced

I rather go down swinging and I encourage my fellow union brothers and sisters to continue voting down these short-sighted contracts that gut the airline of it's own employees while padding the pockets of investors and upper management. At least we can say we tried to fight for our jobs.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-08-07 19:55:56 and read 6156 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 135):
I don't see how the screwing up of putting luggage on an aircraft and not being able to give weight figures with those bags that are weighed at the counter is the same as making the decisions that keep you employed.

If you think the weight manifest comes from the ticket counter you are sorely mistaken. All cargo weight must be visually kept track of and verified (i.e. counting every bag in your head). Scanners are not used for W&B, only for tracking info. It is actually a pretty stressful job, keeping track of hundreds of bags and making sure they are accounted for in the correct cargo pit (and loaded properly to ensure the downline station can offload the bags in the correct order to get connecting bags to their connecting flight).

You also sign your name and accept personal responsibility for the weights you gave central load planning or the captain. So there is a little bit of responsibility with this job, despite what your assumptions are.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-07 22:44:39 and read 6071 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 131):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 130):
Yeah, sure, EVERYBODY above you pisses on those below them while NOBODY in your position ever pisses on anyone below them

don't think I said everyone does. Care to point out that point.

Well that came off as what you were implying to me.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 131):

you mad bro?

I was until you said that and made me LOL  

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-08-08 02:56:43 and read 6015 times.

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 99):
I have friends at UA who have applied for those jobs and told me the salary range, and let me tell you, they don't make near that much!

-m

I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less, (that is about the same as a regular union "top scale" agent working lots of overtime) . That is fine if they show improvement of the station, but it is a waste of lots of money, if they run it the same"old" way as with out making things better.. time will tell, the 100K plus should attract some managers that can make improvements, and save the company money.. also many agents would never want to move up to manager positions because the pay was the same of less, and Zero job security, so many managers ans sups were hired "off the street" with no airline expertise..

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-08 07:34:34 and read 5919 times.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less

The cost-of-living-adjustment for Chicago vs Houston was somewhere around 25%. However, I would urge you to consider that the cost of paying people more because of chicago v houston is largely offset by the tax breaks the company gained by moving into chicago, so it's not quite the whole story to look at the top line figure, but you are correct, salaries are higher for "ex-cons" than they were before.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
100K plus should attract some managers that can make improvements

The average MBA grad with ZERO management experience coming from a top-10 school will make around 110-120k in the open market. UA pay can range from below market, to lower middle of the range. And that is not even for a manager, many people on the frontline don't understand the kind of pay that a good experienced manager can command. At other companies, a UA employee that makes 130k would make nearly 200k, and lots of UA folks have taken that trade over the years.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-08-08 10:17:17 and read 5820 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 62):
I understand the MIA and maybe SFO have a different starting scale. sCO used to have it (for years 1 thru 4) but met in the middle years and everybody topped out the same rate. Is this rate for DGS or DL Ready Reserve?

Swissport and Eulen America, as they hold contracts with Miami-Dade County. DL Ready Reserve is $11.07 at MIA and $11.02 at FLL, and Swissport market rate is about $9.50 at FLL.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

   Hiring just anybody to be a CSA or ramp agent is going to result in more money lost than saved as a result of incompetence and/or poor training and/or lack of emotional investment in the product.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-08-08 11:07:46 and read 5785 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 141):
Hiring just anybody to be a CSA or ramp agent is going to result in more money lost than saved as a result of incompetence and/or poor training and/or lack of emotional investment in the product.



I agree completely. Let me give you two personal examples, both within a one month period. I fly from a location with both UA personnel, and contract personnel working together at checkin. I can tell them apart because they have different uniforms.

First situation. Originating flight was cancelled. Contract employee says "the computer has rebooked you" and proceeds to tell me I'm booked on a flight departing in 5 hours, with 3 connections, arriving at my U.S. destination the following morning. When I ask if there isn't something better, the response is "that's what the computer has you booked on". I persist and am met with a blank stare. The UA agent next to him says "come on over here", to which the vendor happily obliges. UA puts me on US Airways and in 5 minutes I'm off to check in with US Airways, arriving at my destination about an hour later than original.

Second situation. My origination flight is several hours late. The vendor hands me boarding passes for the original flights (which is definitely going to misconnect) and says nothing else. When I say "I'm not going to make my connection he says "they'll rebook you at the gate". The UA employee (in the process of checking someone else in) says "don't send him to the gate to be rebooked, do it now". The contract agent stands there for a minute, and says "see him."

There are UA employees who aren't so great, and vendor employees who are not so great, but, in my experience, the UA employees have more invested in the company and most will try to satisfy their passengers more than the vendor agents will.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-08 11:33:20 and read 5763 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 142):
I agree completely. Let me give you two personal examples, both within a one month period. I fly from a location with both UA personnel, and contract personnel working together at checkin.

Is it PIT, ROC, TPA or YVR? Those are the only 4 possibilities right now.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-08-08 12:08:33 and read 5720 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 143):
Is it PIT, ROC, TPA or YVR? Those are the only 4 possibilities right now.

None of the above. I don't want to say where because I'm not intentionally trying to make anyone look bad.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-08 12:46:54 and read 5672 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 144):
None of the above. I don't want to say where because I'm not intentionally trying to make anyone look bad.

EGE perhaps? Sorry, I just have to pry it out of you. EGE is the only other place in the system that ML and Express employees work side/side. SAN has both, but they are separate lobby areas.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: MTNWEST1979
Posted 2013-08-08 12:50:41 and read 5665 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 145):
ML and Express employees work side/side. SAN has both, but they are separate lobby areas.

Didn't say ML and Express employees, was ML and 3rd party/vendor/outsource workers.
But then again, there is no such person as a United Express employee.....

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-08 12:53:03 and read 5659 times.

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 146):

Didn't say ML and Express employees, was ML and 3rd party/vendor/outsource workers.
But then again, there is no such person as a United Express employee.....

Of course you know I'm referring to a vendor working UA/UAX flights. Let's not be pedantic here.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-08 13:10:56 and read 5650 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 141):
Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 88):
Because it is not a skilled position in the traditional meaning of the term does not mean that anyone can do it and should be paid as low as possible to do it.

Hiring just anybody to be a CSA or ramp agent is going to result in more money lost than saved as a result of incompetence and/or poor training and/or lack of emotional investment in the product.

If that were to truly be the result, then UA would no doubt reverse course at the shareholders behest no less. I don't believe all contracted employees should be making the bare minimum, in my own opinion and observation there's definitely something to be said for the positive financial benefits of good morale and employees feeling strong internal and external equity.

I used to work as a station agent for American Eagle for $9.00/hour and, while the job could be stressful at times, there honestly was not a whole lot of skill involved in the work unless you moved up as one of the managers or supervisors. In my opinion, the contractor pay should be based on the size of the operation or schedule as, the larger the schedule, the greater the work load and complexity of the job. Otherwise, $9.00/hour for working 1-2 dailies in Williston, North Dakota is completely fair.

Quoting azstar (Reply 142):

I agree completely. Let me give you two personal examples, both within a one month period.

I don't think anyone is arguing that skill gaps between the two groups don't exist, but that's more a problem with UA quality assurance.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-08 16:37:55 and read 5575 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 148):
If that were to truly be the result, then UA would no doubt reverse course at the shareholders behest no less. I don't believe all contracted employees should be making the bare minimum, in my own opinion and observation there's definitely something to be said for the positive financial benefits of good morale and employees feeling strong internal and external equity.

But this is the issue. The ground handling business is now like the regional airline business a while back when the whipsawing began. There are so many operators out there (all headed up by former airline executives), that there must be a lot of money involved. Just like the RJ craze a decade ago, some companies got smart and saw that they could have their own operation so that they could service their smaller stations, and other airlines who needed handling work too. So you have a separate workforce working on a "C" scale. Saves money by having a mainline force and a contracted force. Now you have all the other local and international players involved, it seems like a mess of companies for all of the work. Now with very thin profit margins (the airlines set the rate/price for the service they want provided), these companies can't really pay anyone a decent wage. So "churn" is built into the business model. Just like the RJ pilots who are whipsawed, the people on the ground are getting whipsawed as well. But some of them (pilots) are finally waking up to all of this madness by consolidations. But of course there will be one or two operators who will jump at the chance to fly for poverty wages. So you have all of these companies like ASIG; Worldwide; G2; GAT; Menzies; Swissport all vying for the work. The larger companies who have the scale and mass can survive, but the smaller ones will probably merge or be bought out. Still not good for the employees. The problem is that the airlines call the shots on price and it is very hard to make money, because you as a "service provider" can't set the price for the service. And the quality of the work varies from vendor to vendor. So it is bad for the worker period. That's why it is a "race to the bottom".

I remember a bunch of years ago when we were hiring, people from the contractors on the ramp asked if we were hiring. So many of these people got easily hired (along with people from Chelsea), because they obviously had experience; passed background; and SIDA badges. And they are still with us today. They were very grateful to be hired, because of the low wages they were paid, and no benefits. Definitely a step up.

Bottom line is that the price of flying will definitely go up. It has to because from the air, to the ground, you will eventually have to pay more for labor. It will be an unsustainable model, if you don't.

[Edited 2013-08-08 16:47:57]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: skyguyB727
Posted 2013-08-08 17:01:07 and read 5546 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 41):
The airline portion will be dead. But the ground handling division will expand. And as of now they are still under the AMR umbrella. I don't know what the new merged corp. name will be, but they won't give it up if it is profitable.

Back in the mid to late 1990s, AMR had a ground handling division called AMR Services. Their sole purpose was to provide outsourcing services to other airlines.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-08-08 17:12:39 and read 5543 times.

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 150):
Back in the mid to late 1990s, AMR had a ground handling division called AMR Services. Their sole purpose was to provide outsourcing services to other airlines.

And AA may well repeat history going forward. Eagle is already effectively functioning as a low-cost outsourced ground handling provider for the entire corporation (mainline and Eagle) so it really has almost becoming larger than just Eagle itself. Regardless of the future of Eagle as an air carrier, I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground handling business separated - one way or another - into a standalone entity that is ultimately spun off or sold.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-08-08 19:24:17 and read 5506 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 151):

And AA may well repeat history going forward. Eagle is already effectively functioning as a low-cost outsourced ground handling provider for the entire corporation (mainline and Eagle) so it really has almost becoming larger than just Eagle itself. Regardless of the future of Eagle as an air carrier, I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground handling business separated - one way or another - into a standalone entity that is ultimately spun off or sold.

I would have said the same thinga year ago but hinesight is always 20/20. I would have never guessed th DL would dissolve Regional Elite (basically folded into DGS), oust Comair, shutter Pinnacle only to save them in BK, buy them out and rename them.

I can see AA holding onto Eagle..for now (at least the ground portion).

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-08 23:29:16 and read 5401 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 151):
And AA may well repeat history going forward. Eagle is already effectively functioning as a low-cost outsourced ground handling provider for the entire corporation (mainline and Eagle) so it really has almost becoming larger than just Eagle itself. Regardless of the future of Eagle as an air carrier, I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground handling business separated - one way or another - into a standalone entity that is ultimately spun off or sold.

Eagle is a decent regional/ground handler to work for. From what I've heard pay starts out at $9 something an hour and tops out at $15 an hour. That is good pay for the skills and abilities required to work as a CSA/ramp agent.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 148):
I used to work as a station agent for American Eagle for $9.00/hour and, while the job could be stressful at times, there honestly was not a whole lot of skill involved in the work unless you moved up as one of the managers or supervisors. In my opinion, the contractor pay should be based on the size of the operation or schedule as, the larger the schedule, the greater the work load and complexity of the job. Otherwise, $9.00/hour for working 1-2 dailies in Williston, North Dakota is completely fair.

  It's not a difficult job. People need to stop trying to make it into something its not.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less, (that is about the same as a regular union "top scale" agent working lots of overtime) .

$75k a year?! To be an agent? That's ridiculous. No wonder labor costs are so high. $15 an hour top of the pay scale is more than fair compensation for the position.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-09 07:01:38 and read 5310 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
$75k a year?! To be an agent? That's ridiculous. No wonder labor costs are so high. $15 an hour top of the pay scale is more than fair compensation for the position.

Read his post,

Quoting COSPN (Reply 153):
the old s/CO managers pay scales


Operative word MANAGERS

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-08-09 07:05:09 and read 5309 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
Eagle is a decent regional/ground handler to work for. From what I've heard pay starts out at $9 something an hour and tops out at $15 an hour. That is good pay for the skills and abilities required to work as a CSA/ramp agent.

   NK has a similar pay rate for their CSAs, as does AA for their phone agents.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-09 10:02:38 and read 5248 times.

And I forgot about the varia

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
Quoting COSPN (Reply 139):
I have heard the pay of new s/UA managers is much more (100K) plus, The old s/CO managers pay scales.Most were about 75K more or less, (that is about the same as a regular union "top scale" agent working lots of overtime) .

$75k a year?! To be an agent? That's ridiculous.

Not really. The operative words are "for a top scale (A-scale) agent" working "lots of overtime" which can happen during the summer and the holidays. Those are periods where there is plenty of overtime to get if you want it. Some people "live" (for a better term of the word) at the airport picking up hours when we are shorthanded and OT is plentiful. Some people give up hours as well. Works for all parties involved. The company is happy and the agents are happy.

Not everyone working up and downstairs are topped out. Many people are on the "B" scale and getting plenty of overtime as well. That's one of the good things about the job, as well as the flexibility to make your own schedule if you are creative. So everyone is not making 75K.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 153):
$15 an hour top of the pay scale is more than fair compensation for the position.

Maybe in some areas of the country, but in the major cities, it is not.

As I said in my previous post #149, rates / wages will definitely go up. All of these smaller handling companies will be consolidated and the biggest will survive, (note: I'm singling out DGS and AE because they are wholly owned by their respective airlines) and they will have to get a fair rate from the airline, and they won't get whipsawed. The airline can only lowball them so much. Especially once the economy gets better. The costs of flying will as well.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-09 11:57:22 and read 5197 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 156):
As I said in my previous post #149, rates / wages will definitely go up. All of these smaller handling companies will be consolidated and the biggest will survive, (note: I'm singling out DGS and AE because they are wholly owned by their respective airlines) and they will have to get a fair rate from the airline, and they won't get whipsawed. The airline can only lowball them so much. Especially once the economy gets better. The costs of flying will as well.

Wages will not go up and there will be no reason to... There will ALWAYS be people who want to work around the airport and be around airplanes and the vast majority of people (Those with a h.s. diploma and no criminal record) are qualified for the position.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 156):
Maybe in some areas of the country, but in the major cities, it is not.

Once again, this is NOT a career. If you want to spend your whole life in the CSA/ramp agent position that's your choice but don't expect to live comfortably. It's an entry-level position. It's more suited for students, retirees, and people whose spouses have a great job and don't need the money.

These ground handlers are probably the way of the future. WN recently announced that it was going to start outsourcing, UA looks interested in outsourcing more stations and AA recently outsourced many CS positions as well. It's just not economical to have agents making $22-25 an hour when there is someone out there willing to do the job for $9 an hour.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: MTNWEST1979
Posted 2013-08-09 13:03:58 and read 5157 times.

Why stop at outsourcing these type of jobs? How about starting a medical professional outsourcing company? That would/should really bring down cost of care. Especially if one were happy to work for $50,000/yr. I say everything under the sun should be done by third party vendors. That way more people would be apt at more varying jobs due to needing three jobs to obtain a good living.
I am obviously being sarcastic here, but i don't see why so many are on the 'why not outsource' bandwagon.

[Edited 2013-08-09 13:05:39]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-09 13:06:45 and read 5150 times.

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 158):
Why stop at outsourcing these type of jobs? How about starting a medical professional outsourcing company? That would/should really bring down cost of care. Especially if one were happy to work for $50,000/yr.

Don't compare a position that requires over 10 years of training to something you can do without a high school diploma, that's not fair to the people who worked their butts off to finish all of that training.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: MTNWEST1979
Posted 2013-08-09 13:18:11 and read 5128 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 159):
Don't compare a position that requires over 10 years of training to something you can do without a high school diploma, that's not fair to the people who worked their butts off to finish all of that training.

That's true, but any position can be outsourced, that was what I was aiming at.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-09 13:24:40 and read 5116 times.

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 160):
That's true, but any position can be outsourced, that was what I was aiming at.

They do this "sort of" with those robot surgeries.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-09 13:27:39 and read 5121 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 159):
Don't compare a position that requires over 10 years of training to something you can do without a high school diploma, that's not fair to the people who worked their butts off to finish all of that training.

  

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 160):
That's true, but any position can be outsourced, that was what I was aiming at.

The side effects of outsourced airline ground crews are far, far less than that of outsourced medical professionals.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: NWAESC
Posted 2013-08-09 14:08:31 and read 5092 times.

Quoting MTNWEST1979 (Reply 158):
How about starting a medical professional outsourcing company? That would/should really bring down cost of care. Especially if one were happy to work for $50,000/yr. I say everything under the sun should be done by third party vendors. That way more people would be apt at more varying jobs due to needing three jobs to obtain a good living.
I am obviously being sarcastic here, but i don't see why so many are on the 'why not outsource' bandwagon.

Already happening to an extent in the medical field... Ever had an X-ray read by someone in India?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: skyguyB727
Posted 2013-08-09 14:44:15 and read 5081 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 96):
Honestly the amount of training that goes into knowing the systems and dealing with unique situations on the fly probably make the entry level airline employee a bit more skilled than you typical waiter. When the stuff hits the fan experience and the ability to take care of the customers becomes number one. How well do you think a situation where a few flights cancel is going to be handled with a bunch of low experience outsourced agents?

The job also includes security issues, proper dangerous goods handling, knowledge of ticketing and fare calculations, knowledge of meteorology, and a general interest/knowledge of aviation. It takes a lot more skill than scanning barcodes at the supermarket. Anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully uninformed.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: kordcj
Posted 2013-08-09 15:01:38 and read 5077 times.

I am under the impression airlines don't pay well no matter the position. I interviewed with F9 for a position and they offered me $42k. Got offered a job with Rolls-Royce for $90k and a far better benefits package. Both jobs had nearly the same education and experience requirements. Airlines will have trouble competing with other companies for technical talent if they are offering far less in compensation than non-airline companies.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-09 15:40:54 and read 5055 times.

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 164):
The job also includes security issues, proper dangerous goods handling, knowledge of ticketing and fare calculations, knowledge of meteorology, and a general interest/knowledge of aviation. It takes a lot more skill than scanning barcodes at the supermarket. Anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully uninformed.

There may be a fare amount of material to learn but it's hardly difficult to learn. You are spoon fed everything in training. You can become fully trained as a CSA/ramp agent in three weeks. I worked with a few people who were 18 years old and literally right out of high school.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-09 16:14:08 and read 5032 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 166):
There may be a fare amount of material to learn but it's hardly difficult to learn. You are spoon fed everything in training. You can become fully trained as a CSA/ramp agent in three weeks. I worked with a few people who were 18 years old and literally right out of high school.

That's where the "pencil-whipping" comes in. But sooner or later it will catch up you, and you can get seriously hurt out there. Practical OJT, and constant training of procedures and standards keep you safe out there.

What I don't understand is why some people on this board begrudge us for what we do and get paid? Now I don't understand the animosity. That's one of the problems with this country. Please don't tell me I make too much money. When I got hired, I knew what the market would bear and weighed everything before I took the job. And my pay went up and down and up. Of course the bean counters and execs say we make too much. They want more money for them. There are still other workgroups who don't have JCBA's yet. Why is that. We may be the biggest group in number, but not the costilest. We earn our money every day. We all lived thru the BK's and the bad management. We sacrificed and took cuts and furloughs. We did what we were asked to do.


Quoting m11stephen (Reply 157):
Wages will not go up and there will be no reason to... There will ALWAYS be people who want to work around the airport and be around airplanes and the vast majority of people (Those with a h.s. diploma and no criminal record) are qualified for the position.

Yes it will when the economy gets better. How in the hell are these companies going to make money and a profit? And get the employees to work for them? As I said, the airlines set the rate and price, not the companies. And airfares WILL GO UP. Not down. Even the regional pilots are waking up from their "Shiny Jet Syndrome" and finally dealing with the issue of "whipsawing". That's why the airline division of American Eagle is about to die. They refused that bad deal, and they are about to be gone. But of course someone else will took a bad deal (Pinnacle). Sure, people may want to work around planes and it's exciting at first for some, but why is turnover built in? After a couple of months, they want to quit. I've seen it happen. Especially in the winter time. There's more money to be made at an airport shop than freezing your butt out there on a cold ramp, or having a bunch of screaming passengers at you during IRROPS.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-08-09 20:26:15 and read 4970 times.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 111):
You're absolutely correct. If an executive screws up a 10-K he may wind up fired or in court. If a ramper screws up a bag count, his error could cause fatalities!

I would think that the ramp agent miscounting the number of bags unless they really can't count won't bring a plane down. They may be stupid but not that stupid. I have never heard of a plane being brought down by an inaccurate bag count.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-09 21:57:04 and read 4925 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 167):
Yes it will when the economy gets better. How in the hell are these companies going to make money and a profit? And get the employees to work for them? As I said, the airlines set the rate and price, not the companies. And airfares WILL GO UP. Not down. Even the regional pilots are waking up from their "Shiny Jet Syndrome" and finally dealing with the issue of "whipsawing". That's why the airline division of American Eagle is about to die. They refused that bad deal, and they are about to be gone. But of course someone else will took a bad deal (Pinnacle). Sure, people may want to work around planes and it's exciting at first for some, but why is turnover built in? After a couple of months, they want to quit. I've seen it happen. Especially in the winter time. There's more money to be made at an airport shop than freezing your butt out there on a cold ramp, or having a bunch of screaming passengers at you during IRROPS.

Comparing airline ground crews to airline pilots is apples and oranges. It takes year to become a pilot, it takes week(s) to become an agent. There will *ALWAYS* be people who want to work at the airport, always. That is never going to change. I've never heard of an airline not being able to fill an open customer service, ramp or for that matter flight attendant position. There is and will be a shortage of pilots. Their is an incentive for airlines to retain pilots because if a pilot quits they aren't always going to be able to fill that position. If an agent quits there are twenty people kicking down the door to take that position.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 167):
What I don't understand is why some people on this board begrudge us for what we do and get paid? Now I don't understand the animosity. That's one of the problems with this country. Please don't tell me I make too much money. When I got hired, I knew what the market would bear and weighed everything before I took the job. And my pay went up and down and up. Of course the bean counters and execs say we make too much. They want more money for them. There are still other workgroups who don't have JCBA's yet. Why is that. We may be the biggest group in number, but not the costilest. We earn our money every day. We all lived thru the BK's and the bad management. We sacrificed and took cuts and furloughs. We did what we were asked to do.

The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-08-10 01:21:19 and read 4897 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 138):

I was until you said that and made me LOL

you
are
welcome
 
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 132):

well few things
1) for whatever horse crap stupid reason they(DGS) do have a PPR. (I don't know if they have a 6-digit Delta Employee number though)
2) Let me ask you, had you been working the ramp for Delta and they came to you and said no more health care, no more paid time off, less take of pay and no 401K.....exactly how good of a job would you have done? Don't even feed me the line of crap about it being understandable or any of that junk.
3) again, thanks for being part of the problem. I on the other hand hope you don't end up getting Mexicoed or DGSed

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):

The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

Really? Delta probably does more work in house than any airline now and pays its AMTs the highest

and just made nearly 1 billion in a quarter. They saved an amazing 250M OVER FIVE YEARS! to send the HMV(or D-checks) out of house and close two bases. So what you're telling me is that if that work was done in house it would take 2 billion in profit away for 50 million bucks?

And if cost were so high why do we do work for other airlines? Ask LAN chile, they have been more than happy to send their 767s to ATL for heavy checks.

they don't do work in house because, for whatever reason, they listen to people like yourself. Doing work in house isn't cool. No matter how much it cost.


and finally, how is it that its the union fault? Delta isn't union........

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: COSPN
Posted 2013-08-10 01:51:39 and read 4900 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

How old are you ?? You think $21/per hour is "too much" its barely 40,000 per year that is just about rock botton to have a car, and a place to live, and money to eat..and that is after 20 years of making almost nothing..

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-10 05:38:47 and read 4863 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
I've never heard of an airline not being able to fill an open customer service, ramp or for that matter flight attendant position

And that, my friend, is the operative word: major AIRLINE. Not contract company.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

DL is non union. And we (sCO) was non union until 2011. And that is the "market rate" for all of the airlines. So don't blame the unions. DL (and AA) can outsource and have a group of employees on a "C" scale, because they OWN their handling company. DL will have the second highest rate after WN. WN has the highest pay for all of their positions. Now there barking about labor, but I'll bet one thing; they won't try and screw over their employees. And they haven't been in BK either. When AA and US merges, US people's pay will go up to meet parity with AA's people (and AA is going thru BK with 5 billion in the bank)

Quoting COSPN (Reply 171):
How old are you ?? You think $21/per hour is "too much" its barely 40,000 per year that is just about rock botton to have a car, and a place to live, and money to eat..and that is after 20 years of making almost nothing..

And that is only after a 10 year top-out.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-10 08:17:08 and read 4829 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

So back in 1998 I had applied, and interviewed with AA to do ground. They were offering something like $9.25 starting if I remember right. So removing the blaming unions thing, if we just look at inflation, I would need to make $13.25/hr today to have the same purchasing power I did back then. What is the rationale to to expect people to not ask for higher pay for starting positions when the cost of everything else has gone up? Gas back then was just under a $1 per gallon, today well over $3...which of course impacts everything else. I'm just not seeing the common sense anymore if expecting people to be able to start off at the wage level they did 15 years ago. You can only expect people to do grunt work at low wages for so long, especially considering the impacts it will have on their body.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 172):
WN has the highest pay for all of their positions. Now there barking about labor, but I'll bet one thing; they won't try and screw over their employees. And they haven't been in BK either. When AA and US merges, US people's pay will go up to meet parity with AA's people (and AA is going thru BK with 5 billion in the bank)

Most of what I've seen publically posted on the union pages for WN is that the cost adjustments are likely going to come in work rules, overtime, job classifications, etc...not so much outsourcing or pay cuts. Granted some smaller stations are eligible to be outsourced, but I want to say that is just underwing or at the very least there will be a WN employee (or two) on site to ensure it isn't fully left in the hands of a 3rd party.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-08-10 08:25:35 and read 4816 times.

I wonder what types of people they will get at such low pay ? How reliable will these people be ? Will they flip out when IROPS come about ? I was talking to the lady @ Subway and she was telling me how hard it is to get people to show up on a daily basis . Some do not even call in ,just don't show . I'm sure Subway's wages are not far off from what UA is offering,plus the stress of dealing with people as a CRS and loading/unloading bags.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-10 09:41:42 and read 4774 times.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 171):
How old are you ?? You think $21/per hour is "too much" its barely 40,000 per year that is just about rock botton to have a car, and a place to live, and money to eat..and that is after 20 years of making almost nothing..

Once again this is an *entry-level position*. You're not supposed to stay in it forever and live comfortably. I digress, I've made my point.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: MtnWest1979
Posted 2013-08-10 11:03:46 and read 4739 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*. You're not supposed to stay in it forever and live comfortably. I digress, I've made my point.

.....as baseless as it is.
So who tapped you to classify it as such? Just because you don't need to waste time and $$ to get a seemingly useless degree at an overpriced university?
However, I do know many a lowly ramp agent that have degrees in varying fields, so they are all not uneducated dolts.
One question though: What do you care anyway if someone feels or would want to do this indefinitely?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-10 11:38:07 and read 4788 times.

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 176):
However, I do know many a lowly ramp agent that have degrees in varying fields, so they are all not uneducated dolts.
One question though: What do you care anyway if someone feels or would want to do this indefinitely?

There are McDonalds cashiers (not that there is anything wrong with working there) who have bachelor's degrees... It is not necessary or required for the ramp agent position. I don't care per se I'm just explaining why this outsourcing is occurring and why you shouldn't expect to be able to afford to feed, clothe and house a family of four while working as a ramp agent or CSA.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-10 12:27:58 and read 4759 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 177):
There are McDonalds cashiers (not that there is anything wrong with working there) who have bachelor's degrees... It is not necessary or required for the ramp agent position. I don't care per se I'm just explaining why this outsourcing is occurring and why you shouldn't expect to be able to afford to feed, clothe and house a family of four while working as a ramp agent or CSA.

Yet you continue to ignore that a ramp agent is going to have more impacts to them physically than a person as Mickey D's. Certain jobs with risks come with additional benefits. Being exposed to the elements and having to lift several thousand pounds of bags every day can take a toll on the body. Shouldn't that be rewarded with a little bit higher pay over someone putting together my McDouble?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: MtnWest1979
Posted 2013-08-10 14:11:15 and read 4737 times.

Well perhaps the UPS/FedEx driver position is a good area to try to vendor out. I mean anyone can drive and drop off packages I think. I bet this would save a lot of $$ for those companies.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-08-10 14:38:45 and read 4714 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 168):
I have never heard of a plane being brought down by an inaccurate bag count.

Air Midwest 5481. Had the plane not been overloaded, it likely would have been recoverable.

I would also point to the Alaska Airlines flight that had an explosive decompression because a ramp agent hit the fuselage with a belt loader and didn't report it.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 177):
I don't care per se I'm just explaining why this outsourcing is occurring and why you shouldn't expect to be able to afford to feed, clothe and house a family of four while working as a ramp agent or CSA.

I would love to hear your views on what constitutes a "non-entry level position", why, and just how many of those jobs are available... and why everyone else at the bottom doesn't deserve to make it a career.

I would also like to hear on what you think of outsourcing aircraft maintenance. Should a person with a highly technical and expensive education not be able to feed or clothe a family of four? What about outsourced regional pilots? Don't they deserve to have a liveable wage and be able to support a family?

And comparing a McDonald's cashier to a CSA or ramper proves that you haven't worked as any of them. There is simply no comparison.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: beachbum1970
Posted 2013-08-10 16:03:19 and read 4658 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
I would also point to the Alaska Airlines flight that had an explosive decompression because a ramp agent hit the fuselage with a belt loader and didn't report it.

I believe this incident happened AFTER the Alaska Airlines ramp was contracted out to Menzies.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-08-10 16:37:15 and read 4648 times.

Yes. You are correct. Alaska Airlnes Flight 536. It happened right after Menzies took over the ramp.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2013-08-10 17:19:00 and read 4618 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 170):
2) Let me ask you, had you been working the ramp for Delta and they came to you and said no more health care, no more paid time off, less take of pay and no 401K.....exactly how good of a job would you have done? Don't even feed me the line of crap about it being understandable or any of that junk.

Sounds like a ready reserve.....

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-08-10 18:34:54 and read 4579 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
Air Midwest 5481. Had the plane not been overloaded, it likely would have been recoverable.

Possibly, but it was a combination of improper loading and counting of bags and bad contract maintenance on the horizontal stabilizer.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-10 21:53:10 and read 4531 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
and why everyone else at the bottom doesn't deserve to make it a career.

Once again, anyone is absolutely free to make a career being a bag loader for US Airways Express, just don't complain when you have a sudden epiphany that that $9.00/hour position isn't going to cover your bills if you have a family. Entry-level positions are lower-skilled, bottom-end of the company positions, they're not meant to be "career-making" positions, they exist to do a basic job which demands a lower skill set. Those with talent rise up in the company, those who can't hack it quit and move on.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
Should a person with a highly technical and expensive education not be able to feed or clothe a family of four?

It's not an arbitrary question of "should they". How many other workers are out there with the same skill set? How much are they willing to work for? 30-35 years ago most could lead a comfortable middle class life with just a high school diploma...heck you could still do alright even without that. Times change however, many more people have high school diplomas that it's now common place and college degrees are now the new standard. Bottom line, I repeat, if you want a "liveable wage", you need to develop a skill set and personal value proposition for the company that sets you above entry-level status.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-11 00:06:58 and read 4502 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 185):
Those with talent rise up in the company, those who can't hack it quit and move on.

LOL if only that were true.   Majority of the time its politics. My last company I was tapped to go from supervisor up to operations manager. There were significant issues in the business though that I had said needed addressing (hence one reason for the promotion) but it would only happen if I agreed to replaced my existing boss who would have been fired if I accepted (the regional VP and them didn't get along being the VP was an idiot to put it nicely). I gave notice and told them to have fun. They've gone through about 5 people so far at the OM position since I left 2 years ago.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 185):
It's not an arbitrary question of "should they". How many other workers are out there with the same skill set? How much are they willing to work for? 30-35 years ago most could lead a comfortable middle class life with just a high school diploma...heck you could still do alright even without that. Times change however, many more people have high school diplomas that it's now common place and college degrees are now the new standard. Bottom line, I repeat, if you want a "liveable wage", you need to develop a skill set and personal value proposition for the company that sets you above entry-level status.

People continue to ignore one major component of ramp folks, and somewhat to the same extent the counter CSRs. The job includes a fair amount of labor with lifting bags. This eventually leads to physical issues and perhaps OJIs. This raises the risk a bit compared to other entry level positions at an airline. IMO, someone on the ramp should have a higher wage than someone who is solely inside at the counter or in a res center taking calls. Yes it is still entry level, but it is a higher risk position that will cause physical impacts to that person. This is why you can find workers in distribution centers for Walmart, Costco, etc making $20/hr. The physical labor and the operation of the machinery (tugs and such on ramp, forklifts in the warehouses).

Today I agree that you need some college education, if you don't have the work experience already built up, to get ahead of basic front line work. Is a bachelors degree the new standard? No. We aren't to that point yet. We are past the point though we just a HS degree can get you a good job. Of course in my days of hiring folks, I'm taking the person with 5-10 years experience over some fresh new college grad with zero experience.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-08-11 13:18:01 and read 4375 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
I would also like to hear on what you think of outsourcing aircraft maintenance. Should a person with a highly technical and expensive education not be able to feed or clothe a family of four? What about outsourced regional pilots? Don't they deserve to have a liveable wage and be able to support a family?

I am unfamiliar with what it takes to become an aircraft mechanics but I'm pretty sure (Correct me if I'm wrong) it takes more than three weeks of training to become one... I've never worked in maintenance so I'm not one to judge that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
I would love to hear your views on what constitutes a "non-entry level position", why, and just how many of those jobs are available... and why everyone else at the bottom doesn't deserve to make it a career.

If you'd like to google "SVP ranges" you'll be able to see categories and what constitutes a unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled position. Also, if you'd like to Google "Entry-level position" you'll get a definition and see that being a CSA/ramp agent fits the description perfectly.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
And comparing a McDonald's cashier to a CSA or ramper proves that you haven't worked as any of them. There is simply no comparison.

Once again I worked as a CSA for nearly two and a half years. I have worked a variety of jobs during my life (food service, retail, etc.) and being a CSA was by far the easiest job with the best benefits.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-08-11 14:19:10 and read 4336 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 187):
I am unfamiliar with what it takes to become an aircraft mechanics but I'm pretty sure (Correct me if I'm wrong) it takes more than three weeks of training to become one... I've never worked in maintenance so I'm not one to judge that.
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 187):
If you'd like to google "SVP ranges" you'll be able to see categories and what constitutes a unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled position. Also, if you'd like to Google "Entry-level position" you'll get a definition and see that being a CSA/ramp agent fits the description perfectly.

I Googled both and found an unsourced Wikipedia article on "Entry-level position" (the rest were job listings), and SVP referrs to how much training is required to acquire average performance in a specific job function, not whether something is "entry level" or not.

BTW, aircraft mechanics and pilots are considered "skilled" jobs according to your links... and yet we continually see their outsourcing.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 187):
being a CSA was by far the easiest job with the best benefits.

Ah, so now the standard is a subjective measure of "easiness", relative to the subjective worth of the benefits.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: MtnWest1979
Posted 2013-08-11 21:45:54 and read 4212 times.

Question:
If all these entry level ramp/csa jobs were to be outsourced everywhere, what would replace them as the entry level job at airlines? Secretary at the HQ?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-11 22:27:31 and read 4201 times.

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 190):
If all these entry level ramp/csa jobs were to be outsourced everywhere, what would replace them as the entry level job at airlines? Secretary at the HQ?

Administrative positions, IT, marketing...I'm sure there is plenty of "overpaid" positions that can be outsourced.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 188):
Ah, so now the standard is a subjective measure of "easiness", relative to the subjective worth of the benefits.

I was a bit shocked by the comment that a ramper was the easiest job. I guess it depends on where you are and how many flights. I would imagine a ramper in Arizona or Texas in the Summer, Chicago and New York in the Winter...would all probably disagree.   The CSA side inside is definitely not easy once a flight cancels and you have 100 people screaming and yelling. Sure you can train the basics in a few weeks, but it is going to take much to develop the skills to handle complex and unique situations. People seem to lose perspective when they move away from the front lines into the cubicle jungle.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-08-12 09:34:07 and read 4098 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 191):

I was a bit shocked by the comment that a ramper was the easiest job.

He was referring to being a CSA as the easiest job he's ever had.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 191):
The CSA side inside is definitely not easy once a flight cancels and you have 100 people screaming and yelling. Sure you can train the basics in a few weeks, but it is going to take much to develop the skills to handle complex and unique situations.

Not to mention the computer skills needed.

I just find it pathetic that people would actually want others to be poor, as some sort of punishment for not moving up the corporate ladder.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-12 09:59:27 and read 4078 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 192):

I just find it pathetic that people would actually want others to be poor, as some sort of punishment for not moving up the corporate ladder.

I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 186):

LOL if only that were true.

It's very true, there is management in airlines throughout the industry that have started off as rampers, CSA's or flight attendants for example. I should have also qualified that people working in these types of lower-skilled entry-level jobs can also leave and move up in other companies/industries in good part because of the work history and established work ethic they built up at the entry-level.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 186):
The job includes a fair amount of labor with lifting bags. This eventually leads to physical issues and perhaps OJIs. This raises the risk a bit compared to other entry level positions at an airline.

It isn't a major component at all. Again, just because it can be labor intensive (and believe me, from experience I know it can be) does not equate to increased skills, even throwing an agility test at candidates, the number of people willing and able to do the job is still quite large. Mining and working in rock quarries have always been extremely labor intensive and dangerous yet still comparatively lower-paying. However, when you have a shortage of people willing to do the work, your starting price goes up as were seeing with a lot of these oil and gas jobs in North Dakota.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-08-12 14:59:29 and read 3977 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.

I get what you are saying, but should some increase in compensation be warranted over time to at least keep up with inflation?

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-08-12 15:08:02 and read 3978 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 194):
I get what you are saying, but should some increase in compensation be warranted over time to at least keep up with inflation?

I've been wondering this. When the government sets the minimum wage, why do they not have an inflation measure baked in? Seems silly not to.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-12 16:27:20 and read 3920 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 193):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.

I get what you are saying, but should some increase in compensation be warranted over time to at least keep up with inflation?

It's up to the airline really, but I don't think it should be federally or union mandated as, if the price of the job remains the same over time (i.e. the supply and demand for that labor force doesn't shift), then the wages naturally would keep up with inflation. If not then the supply or demand for the work must have changed.

My position is basically that airlines should be free to pay what they see the position as worth to them. On the other hand, as I said previously, I do believe that the financial benefits from a happy, efficient work force aren't something to be ignored and that airlines who only seek out bottom-of-the-barrel workers will be naturally punished via lower-productivity, high turnover and souring customer satisfaction resultant from an unhappy work force.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-08-12 16:43:54 and read 3936 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 195):

My position is basically that airlines should be free to pay what they see the position as worth to them. On the other hand, as I said previously, I do believe that the financial benefits from a happy, efficient work force aren't something to be ignored and that airlines who only seek out bottom-of-the-barrel workers will be naturally punished via lower-productivity, high turnover and souring customer satisfaction resultant from an unhappy work force.

There are 4 "major" airlines that will be left: AA, UA, DL, and WN. The first three are heavily outsourced to minimum wage workers, and fly to many places that WN doesn't.

The idea of "market" wages doesn't work when there's no real competition. There's no reason to care about customer service, because where is the customer going to go? (Hint: study after study says price is the primary factor in which airline is flown).

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-08-12 21:12:21 and read 3826 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 196):
The idea of "market" wages doesn't work when there's no real competition. There's no reason to care about customer service, because where is the customer going to go? (Hint: study after study says price is the primary factor in which airline is flown).

If there is no real competition, why do airlines who fly the same route see different--sometimes radically different--average yield? Customer service almost has to be part of that answer. For me, it's certainly a reason that keeps me away from certain hubs on some carriers as well as a reason that keeps me on my preferred carrier, and I buy well more than 50 percent full fare tickets.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-08-12 21:46:40 and read 3802 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 196):
The idea of "market" wages doesn't work when there's no real competition.

Of course there's real competition, there will always been some markets a certain carrier will have the greatest market share in, but for the majority of the US population there is a lot of direct and indirect competition. The market isn't static either.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 196):
There's no reason to care about customer service, because where is the customer going to go? (Hint: study after study says price is the primary factor in which airline is flown).

If we're going strictly by volume, yes, most only care about price. But as Cubsrule indicated, the most profitable segment of the traveling public are the ones who do care about customer service. If you live in Columbus, OH and UA is constantly mishandling your bags, delaying your flights and giving you a surly attitude, you could easily switch to AA or DL, United will then most definitely feel the pain if enough of those high yielding travelers switch over.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-08-13 14:23:01 and read 3647 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*. You're not supposed to stay in it forever and live comfortably. I digress, I've made my point.

Living comfortably is only relative to what you determine your needs are to live comfortably. My living comfortably is different than your living comfortably.

[/quote]Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 193):
I don't think anyone wants them to be poor, we want the airlines to be able to pay them the market rate instead of some overinflated salary that will send the company's labor costs skyrocketing. The fact remains that the labor pool for CSA/ramp positions has grown larger over the decades and that's going to drive down the pay for that position, that's just life. If you don't aspire to move up the ladder or invest in yourself to some extent to make you stand above the others, then you're only punishing yourself.[/quote]

If you are complaining about your lot in life you only have yourself to blame as you made your choices and really trying to blame others for your lot in life is stupid.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 194):
I've been wondering this. When the government sets the minimum wage, why do they not have an inflation measure baked in? Seems silly not to.

Governments like to trot out the minimum wage card during elections. Actually there is a correlation between rising the minimum wage to unemployment as companies that hire out at minimum wage often find it hard to stay in business when they are forced to raise the minimum wage they pay.

[Edited 2013-08-13 14:24:06]

[Edited 2013-08-13 14:25:00]

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2013-08-18 01:07:27 and read 3356 times.

Quoting SHAQ (Reply 20):
You can't ask for skilled wage, if your work is unskilled.

No, but you can ask for your wage to go up at a reasonable rate and to a reasonable extent as you stay in that position and gain experience that makes you smarter and better than the guy that just walked in the door. Plus, there's that tiny little matter of defining "unskilled." In my experience, any idiot can stand out on the ramp with two orange sticks in his hands. Apparently, however, very few of the guys that choose to do this can keep track of multiple flights on the ground at once: which plane at which gate is going where and needs what and will depart when.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 170):
1) for whatever horse crap stupid reason they(DGS) do have a PPR. (I don't know if they have a 6-digit Delta Employee number though)

All DGS employees have a PPR number. Supervisors and above have DL IDs. Dunno about Employee numbers, but your average DGS ramper does not have a DL Emp#.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 174):
I wonder what types of people they will get at such low pay ?

Mixed bag, but on average, not good.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 174):
How reliable will these people be ?

Not very.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*.

Ramp Agent may be an entry level position, sure. As I said, any idiot can stand outside with two orange sticks in his hands. Anyone that can drive a car should be able to manage a bag tug or a belt-loader. But most people who stay on the ramp (by choice) learn to do things that are not common tasks or that require more skill and knowledge than parking and offloading a plane. They have the same job title, but have ceased to be "entry level."

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):

And comparing a McDonald's cashier to a CSA or ramper proves that you haven't worked as any of them. There is simply no comparison.

Being a cashier is pathetically easy compared to working for an airline... but it's also a lot less fun.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2013-08-18 11:30:37 and read 3223 times.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 200):
No, but you can ask for your wage to go up at a reasonable rate and to a reasonable extent as you stay in that position and gain experience that makes you smarter and better than the guy that just walked in the door. Plus, there's that tiny little matter of defining "unskilled." In my experience, any idiot can stand out on the ramp with two orange sticks in his hands. Apparently, however, very few of the guys that choose to do this can keep track of multiple flights on the ground at once: which plane at which gate is going where and needs what and will depart when.
Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 200):
Ramp Agent may be an entry level position, sure. As I said, any idiot can stand outside with two orange sticks in his hands. Anyone that can drive a car should be able to manage a bag tug or a belt-loader. But most people who stay on the ramp (by choice) learn to do things that are not common tasks or that require more skill and knowledge than parking and offloading a plane. They have the same job title, but have ceased to be "entry level."

           
You will have your people that will park a plane and remain in the bin until push time and do little as possible but most want to learn more about the aspects of the job and the industry. There is numerous amounts of extra training that a ramp agent can do which can lead to more pay. But it seems that some on this board look at ramp agents as just the slum that throws bags around....   

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-08-18 14:33:47 and read 3133 times.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 201):
You will have your people that will park a plane and remain in the bin until push time and do little as possible but most want to learn more about the aspects of the job and the industry. There is numerous amounts of extra training that a ramp agent can do which can lead to more pay. But it seems that some on this board look at ramp agents as just the slum that throws bags around....

It's all about perspective. Those that are saying this isn't meant to be a career...IDK i'm on the fence. As a 10-year ramp lead you can take home pretty decent money to support a family and that's without overtime. Also not counting the extras that DL throws in that most not employed with the company don't know about.

Could I have made it a career? No, but that's just me. I did my time and moved on.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-08-18 17:51:44 and read 3052 times.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 169):
The unions are artificially inflating your wages... It's not sustainable at the level it's at. This is the reason why airlines are outsourcing... Perhaps if the unions agreed to pay a sustainable wage airlines wouldn't be outsourcing like crazy.

Airlines are doing the same thing that many other companies in the US have done, gut their work force and sub it out to someone else who will do it for less. The reduction in consumers is a big reason the economy still hasn't recovered. Cutting employee compensation is the holy grail for most American executives over the last couple decades.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 175):
Once again this is an *entry-level position*. You're not supposed to stay in it forever and live comfortably. I digress, I've made my point.

It's also a position that doesn't prepare you for anything else. Entry level implies some level of upward mobility, where you seem to use it to describe a dead end.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 180):
Air Midwest 5481. Had the plane not been overloaded, it likely would have been recoverable.

I would also point to the Alaska Airlines flight that had an explosive decompression because a ramp agent hit the fuselage with a belt loader and didn't report it.

While not a bag count issue, ValueJet was certainly a baggage compartment related incident.

Topic: RE: United Outsources ALB, CVG, GRR, MDT, ROC, & TUS
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-08-18 18:14:29 and read 3033 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 203):
While not a bag count issue, ValueJet was certainly a baggage compartment related incident.

J7 was, and AS was, but IIRC ZV was not. That aircraft was overweight because of too low average weights, not overloaded, and would not have crashed had the contract m/x in HTS rigged the elevators correctly.


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