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Topic: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: duncan16
Posted 2013-08-08 07:56:44 and read 33222 times.

I've not yet been able to fly the 787 and am curious about something I've not seen discussed here. Pax can still see out the dimmable window even in its darkest setting - what does the sun look like through it, and how is the experience? I've seen photos and videos of the window in its darkest setting, but never with the sun coming through - has anyone else?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: hotplane
Posted 2013-08-08 08:22:01 and read 33160 times.

It's still too bright to look at despite appearing darker and greener! Windows also get very hot.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: B6JFKH81
Posted 2013-08-08 08:30:26 and read 33126 times.

Found this using a quick google search:

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-08-08 08:35:44 and read 33063 times.

Almost at the darkest setting:


The sun is coming from the left hand side (seat A)


And actually the cabin can become completely dark (look at the Business Class cabin at the very front of the plane)

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: kiffy
Posted 2013-08-08 08:36:49 and read 32998 times.

Take a look through this trip report:

United 787 Domestic First: Houston To Chicago (by IrishAyes Jun 19 2013 in Trip Reports)

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: HeeseokKoo
Posted 2013-08-08 09:33:21 and read 32698 times.

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 3):
And actually the cabin can become completely dark (look at the Business Class cabin at the very front of the plane)

I heard some airlines offers additional stuff to completely cover windows on business class. JAL international flight is one of them, but I cannot tell which airline is in your picture. Anyway, that would explain the dark business class in the picture.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: kiffy
Posted 2013-08-08 10:15:59 and read 32437 times.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 5):
I cannot tell which airline is in your picture.

China Southern Airlines

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-08-08 10:17:29 and read 32439 times.

It's pretty neat to sit on the sun side. I was able to dim the sun enough so that it wasn't blinding, but I was still able to see things outside. Very cool. It made window shades seem prehistoric.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-08 16:25:07 and read 31309 times.

Electronic dimming is the only feature I don't like about the 787, I hope it'll be optional on the A350 and won't become popular on future airliners. I always book a window seat and want to have full control over my window and this technology makes it possible for the cabin crew to override the pax.

At the darkest setting the glare is cut sufficiently, I think nervous flyers who want to see absolutely nothing out the huge 787's windows are the folks complaining the most.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: n797mx
Posted 2013-08-08 17:02:11 and read 30813 times.

When I was on the 787 back in November I thought the shades were a nice novelty, but completely useless. They let in way too much light, made everything green, and those who don't want to look out the window will be terrified. Not to mention the thing got so bloody hot that you couldn't stand being next to it for more than a few minutes when dimmed.

You can compare the Completely dimmed right side to the all clear left side in this photo I took of it.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jordan E. Skok

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: macsog6
Posted 2013-08-08 18:25:53 and read 30039 times.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 5):
JAL international flight is one of them,

I've flown on JL's 787 between SIN and either NRT or HND several times and never been offered anything to cover the window. I find the new method to be much more pleasant than the old window shade which was "off-on" process. Dimmable makes so much more sense and is quite enjoyable to me. But to each his own, some folks would still be flying with piston engines if they could.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-08 18:35:32 and read 29907 times.

Seems like a silly gimmick.


Technology for technologies sake which doesnt work as well as a simple pull down shade.


I would find sitting next to a very hot window that I couldn't completely block the light out with very annoying.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: horstroad
Posted 2013-08-08 18:47:48 and read 29792 times.

do these windows only block (dim) visible light or also UV light so that there is no danger when directly looking at the sun?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-08-08 19:03:34 and read 29612 times.

I love the dimmable feature. I don't want to be "that guy" with the open shade, sun pouring in, when others are trying to sleep on the long haul USA-to-Asia flight. It's rude and awkward. These windows solve that problem.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-08-08 19:12:58 and read 29499 times.

Quoting n797mx (Reply 9):
Not to mention the thing got so bloody hot that you couldn't stand being next to it for more than a few minutes when dimmed.

That's a real problem if the flight is eight or ten hours long.

-Mir

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: bristolflyer
Posted 2013-08-08 19:20:02 and read 29409 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 13):
I don't want to be "that guy" with the open shade, sun pouring in, when others are trying to sleep on the long haul USA-to-Asia flight. It's rude and awkward. These windows solve that problem.

What is that problem exactly?

[Edited 2013-08-08 19:21:07]

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Bill142
Posted 2013-08-08 19:42:47 and read 29214 times.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
What is that problem exactly?

Seeing outside while not letting in much light.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-08 22:09:48 and read 28073 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 13):


I love the dimmable feature. I don't want to be "that guy" with the open shade, sun pouring in, when others are trying to sleep on the long haul USA-to-Asia flight. It's rude and awkward. These windows solve that problem.

You know, they do put those windows in for a reason. Some of us still like to look outside. Besides a simple shade is far more effective and much more reliable.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: TJCAB
Posted 2013-08-09 00:02:19 and read 27128 times.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 12):
do these windows only block (dim) visible light or also UV light so that there is no danger when directly looking at the sun?

I would imagine that all car/aircraft windows have UV protection. My eyeglasses never darken when traveling by air or driving. Just a guess...

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: LZ129
Posted 2013-08-09 00:10:55 and read 27040 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 8):
I think nervous flyers who want to see absolutely nothing out the huge 787's windows are the folks complaining the most.

That's something I never understood. Why on earth would anybody book a window seat if they are afraid to look outside the window? Same goes for people who book a window seat and then never look outside but spend the whole flight playing with their ipad. It doesn't begin to make sense. If you don't like the window, the window seat is the worst seat possible on a plane.
I myself always try to get a window seat and when I have one, I use it. I gaze out of the window and enjoy the fact that I'm living a millenia old dream of humanity. That is if not all the window seats were already booked by a guy who's more interested in last week's football results...   

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
Some of us still like to look outside.

  

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-08-09 00:12:30 and read 27004 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 8):
Electronic dimming is the only feature I don't like about the 787, I hope it'll be optional on the A350

It will be optional on the A350XWB. Even then they would use the newer faster second geneartion dimming electrochromic shades.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-08-09 01:50:35 and read 26123 times.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 19):
That's something I never understood. Why on earth would anybody book a window seat if they are afraid to look outside the window? Same goes for people who book a window seat and then never look outside but spend the whole flight playing with their ipad. It doesn't begin to make sense. If you don't like the window, the window seat is the worst seat possible on a plane.

Many people like the window seat as it's more private for sleeping, you can lean on the wall and not be disturbed by people getting up to go to the bathroom.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2013-08-09 02:56:16 and read 25568 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
You know, they do put those windows in for a reason. Some of us still like to look outside. Besides a simple shade is far more effective and much more reliable.

Asian carriers are especially prone to have passengers close their shades to allow others to sleep. There are times, where I want to look out, but the cabin is near black, and even opening it a crack makes a huge difference in the cabin. So, out of respect, I choose not to open the window. Likewise, there are times where I try to sleep and another passenger decides to open his window and makes it difficult for many others, I consider this inconsiderate.

So in my case, I welcome the electronically dimmed windows, even if cabin crew take control and dim it themselves. It allows me and others to see out without disturbing others. It's not perfectly dark, and it's not perfect visibility, but a generally good compromise for both sides (IMO).

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: shengzhurou
Posted 2013-08-09 04:16:05 and read 24807 times.

pictures taken, with the window dimming setting medium dark, onboard a trans pacific flight with united

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...?id=122339&filename=phpbCktse.jpeg

[Edited 2013-08-09 04:20:58]



personally , it is not dark enough for me


[Edited 2013-08-09 04:22:30]

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2013-08-09 06:23:30 and read 23518 times.

Quoting TJCAB (Reply 18):

I would imagine that all car/aircraft windows have UV protection.

Yes, most if not all plastic components on an aircraft are coated or painted to protect it from UV light.
These windows have clear plastic layer that would have UV protection (or inherently block UV) both for the part and the passengers.

bt

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2013-08-09 06:38:08 and read 24333 times.

After reading this topic, I will probably avoid the 787 for trans-Atlantic East bound flights, especially during the summer. A darker cabin helps you get an extra hour or so of sleep before landing.

As far as I'm concerned this window is a gimmick and a FAIL at that!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: angmoh
Posted 2013-08-09 07:37:35 and read 23545 times.

Quoting TJCAB (Reply 18):
I would imagine that all car/aircraft windows have UV protection. My eyeglasses never darken when traveling by air or driving. Just a guess...
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 24):
These windows have clear plastic layer that would have UV protection (or inherently block UV) both for the part and the passengers.

Even ordinary glass blocks UV for a large extend. UV is around 400nm to around 100nm wavelength and most types of class do hardly transmit anything below 350nm. You need special glass if you want UV to go through.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: ATA L1011
Posted 2013-08-09 07:43:16 and read 24036 times.

How much weight savings is gained by this feature vs shades?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: msp747
Posted 2013-08-09 07:52:44 and read 23883 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
Technology for technologies sake which doesnt work as well as a simple pull down shade.

But if you leave a window shade open when others may be trying to sleep, isn't that more of a distraction than a dimming shade that may not get 100% dark? Obviously for some business class travelers, a normal shade might be ideal, but for the airline dork who actually enjoys looking out the window, it's annoying to get nasty looks or comments from fellow passengers for doing something as simple as leaving your shade up

Quoting autothrust (Reply 20):
It will be optional on the A350XWB. Even then they would use the newer faster second geneartion dimming electrochromic shades

So wait? Boeing is passing on a "faster generation" dimming window and sticking with the original design? I find it hard to believe that they would let Airbus improve on a feature they came up with in the first place.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: evomutant
Posted 2013-08-09 08:04:34 and read 23743 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 28):
So wait? Boeing is passing on a "faster generation" dimming window and sticking with the original design? I find it hard to believe that they would let Airbus improve on a feature they came up with in the first place.

It's not like it is new technology. Electrochromic glass has been around for a long time. It's just new to airliners.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: garpd
Posted 2013-08-09 09:13:49 and read 23722 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 7):
It's pretty neat to sit on the sun side. I was able to dim the sun enough so that it wasn't blinding, but I was still able to see things outside. Very cool. It made window shades seem prehistoric.

This is precisely the observation some friends of mine have made on their ANA and JAL flights on the 787. Lucky swines have flown the 787 23 times so far! They love the windows on the 787.
I guess being a true blood aviation nut will help!


My personal opinion on this: If you want to sleep, put the window to it's darkest setting and put on a face mask. Even if there were shades, there is plenty light from all the reading lights that still interfere with sleep.

I on the other hand can't sleep on any mode of transport were I cannot lie flat. So, with still being able to see out even at the darkest setting, I'm happy  

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: msp747
Posted 2013-08-09 09:19:21 and read 23532 times.

Quoting evomutant (Reply 29):
It's not like it is new technology. Electrochromic glass has been around for a long time. It's just new to airliners

My point is that Boeing is going to improve their offering, they are not going to sit back and let Airbus "one-up" them, especially on a technology that Airbus would have never used if it wasn't because of the 787

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: kasimir
Posted 2013-08-09 11:31:52 and read 23327 times.

I didn't fly on the 787 yet, but I kind of like the dimming feature, but it should compliment the shades not replace them IMO

Why? Sometimes the sun is sooo bright, that it would be nice to kind of dim the window and still have the option to look outside. And in case you want to sleep you use the shade to blacken the window completely.

Also the dimming would eliminate the problem when you want to look outside while most in the cabin want to sleep.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-08-09 12:35:22 and read 23270 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
Besides a simple shade is far more effective and much more reliable.

The shade is not more reliable. Far easier for a passenger to break it than to break the electrochromic glass.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: by738
Posted 2013-08-09 12:52:51 and read 23168 times.

But far easier and cheaper to fix at an outstation...

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: klmd11l
Posted 2013-08-09 14:12:32 and read 23143 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 13):
I love the dimmable feature. I don't want to be "that guy" with the open shade, sun pouring in, when others are trying to sleep on the long haul USA-to-Asia flight. It's rude and awkward. These windows solve that problem.

It's not always "that guy" to blame, some airlines try to keep pax asleep for as long as possible to minimize their demands and cut costs.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-09 21:43:00 and read 22680 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 28):

But if you leave a window shade open when others may be trying to sleep, isn't that more of a distraction than a dimming shade that may not get 100% dark? Obviously for some business class travelers, a normal shade might be ideal, but for the airline dork who actually enjoys looking out the window, it's annoying to get nasty looks or comments from fellow passengers for doing something as simple as leaving your shade up

Ok, i'm a dork. Like I said those windows were put in for a reason. I you want to look out no one should stop you. Imho if you are sitting next to one you own it, how much sleep do you expect to get as a passenger anyway ?

Quoting kasimir (Reply 32):




I didn't fly on the 787 yet, but I kind of like the dimming feature, but it should compliment the shades not replace them IMO

Why? Sometimes the sun is sooo bright, that it would be nice to kind of dim the window and still have the option to look outside. And in case you want to sleep you use the shade to blacken the window completely.

Exactly.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-13 13:34:30 and read 21665 times.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 19):
That's something I never understood. Why on earth would anybody book a window seat if they are afraid to look outside the window?

Some folks don't reserve their seats at the time of booking and can't always get their preferred seats when they check in, also some airlines charge a fee for reserving your seat and not everyone is willing to pay. Also...

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 21):
Many people like the window seat as it's more private for sleeping, you can lean on the wall and not be disturbed by people getting up to go to the bathroom.

.


Quoting autothrust (Reply 20):
It will be optional on the A350XWB. Even then they would use the newer faster second geneartion dimming electrochromic shades.

YES!!! Well done Airbus, hope more and more airlines will go for the traditional shades. Now if only Boeing does the same.



Quoting ATA L1011 (Reply 27):
How much weight savings is gained by this feature vs shades?

Not sure about the weight savings, but in the long run I doubt there will be any significant cost savings, as the planes age these dimmers will malfunction just like the IFE screens and fixing them will be much more costly and time consuming than the simple and super reliable shades.



Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
Ok, i'm a dork. Like I said those windows were put in for a reason. I you want to look out no one should stop you. Imho if you are sitting next to one you own it, how much sleep do you expect to get as a passenger anyway ?

   Well said Max Q.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-08-13 13:45:04 and read 21573 times.

Does anybody know how the cost of the 787 windows and related electronics etc. compares with standard windows and windowshades? And do they require more maintenance?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-08-13 13:57:45 and read 21577 times.



Quoting msp747 (Reply 28):
So wait? Boeing is passing on a "faster generation" dimming window and sticking with the original design? I find it hard to believe that they would let Airbus improve on a feature they came up with in the first place.

Honestly, I don't think he had any merit or factual evidence behind his statement. He was just assuming that Airbus would have better technology because (1) he may be partial to Airbus to begin with and (2) the Airbus is a bit 'newer.' I, too, highly doubt Boeing would allow this, as insignificant as it may be.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
Ok, i'm a dork. Like I said those windows were put in for a reason. I you want to look out no one should stop you. Imho if you are sitting next to one you own it, how much sleep do you expect to get as a passenger anyway ?

I just flew long haul with Emirates, last month, on four different flights. Three were mostly during daylight hours, or had a lot of daylight hours. At many points, the entire economy class zones I was seated in, had every single (or nearly every) window shade closed, not because EK mandated it, but out of respect for others. And the shades remained closed for most of the daylight hours. There was LOTS of sleeping on my flights. Two of my flights were between 13-14 hours long. You can see what I'm referring to in this picture I took in Zone E of my EK 77W (below). Most of the shades are closed, and most of the passengers are knocked out. Not sure how often you fly or what strange dynamics happen on your flights, but most people I know sleep through most of their flights, and that's precisely what I experienced on my flights.

Having window shades open during the day when most are trying to sleep, is extremely disrespectful. I was fortunate to have window seats on all of my flights. I remember on my last flight home, the entire cabin was dark and all shades were down. This was right after sunrise. I opened my shade real quick to catch a glance outside, and it was like someone took a floodlight and lit up the cabin. My one window opened completely made a difference. I took a quick glance and closed the shade. And every time another window passenger opened their shade — no matter where they were seated in the cabin — it was instantaneously recognizable. The cabin was immediately filled with light. And most of those passengers closed their shades, too, out of common respect.

So, yes, you did pay for a window seat, but it's also not fair to inconvenience others for the sake of you wanting to constantly peer out into an endless horizon of clouds. I think there are certain times in a flight where you can be selfish, and have your shades open. People should generally be up at those times, and those who aren't are just out of luck. But if you see the majority of people trying to rest, it is not fair for you to selfishly keep your window open and make it unpleasant for others.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3249/1vq4.jpg

[Edited 2013-08-13 14:01:27]

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-08-13 14:14:11 and read 21524 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 37):
but in the long run I doubt there will be any significant cost savings, as the planes age these dimmers will malfunction just like the IFE screens and fixing them will be much more costly and time consuming than the simple and super reliable shades.

   An IFE screen is a very complicated piece of equipment. A piece of electrochromic glass with a dimming switch is exceedingly simple. This will be one of the most reliable systems on the aircraft. The only real point of failure is passengers abusing and breaking the switch, which will happen, but then again passengers also abuse and break the shades all the time. And replacing the switch will be easier than replacing the shade.

Just because you aren't familiar with the technology behind something doesn't mean it's complex.

[Edited 2013-08-13 14:14:55]

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-16 13:51:01 and read 20633 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 39):
Having window shades open during the day when most are trying to sleep, is extremely disrespectful.

If you want to sleep and a few windows out of dozens are open you put on an eye mask, problem solved! If I want to look out the window I don't have an option but to open my shade.





Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 39):
I remember on my last flight home, the entire cabin was dark and all shades were down. This was right after sunrise. I opened my shade real quick to catch a glance outside, and it was like someone took a floodlight and lit up the cabin. My one window opened completely made a difference. I took a quick glance and closed the shade. And every time another window passenger opened their shade — no matter where they were seated in the cabin — it was instantaneously recognizable. The cabin was immediately filled with light. And most of those passengers closed their shades, too, out of common respect.

The glare right after sunrise is too blinding for anyone to enjoy looking out, I don't open my shade at this time of the flight.





Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 39):
So, yes, you did pay for a window seat, but it's also not fair to inconvenience others for the sake of you wanting to constantly peer out into an endless horizon of clouds.

I get bored quickly when looking at cloudy skies or endless ocean, but when flying overland and the skies are clear it's a different story!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-16 13:59:31 and read 20617 times.

Hopefully Boeing will go back to plastic shades. I don't think electronic tinting adds any value other than additional electric components, hence fire risk.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tcfc424
Posted 2013-08-17 03:27:55 and read 20260 times.

I always hate when I don't get a window seat and am seated next to someone who immediately closes the shade and leaves it there for the duration of the flight. I understand the reasoning if they are sleeping, but I typically don't fly on long flights (under 3 hours) and most (of the people seated next to me who close the shade) don't sleep. It's frustrating.

At times, when I have a window seat, I will close the shade...particularly when it is so bright you cant look out.

I guess my point is, I think the dimmable shades are great. And I completely agree...if you want to sleep on a flight and are sensitive to light...use an eyemask...to go with your microfiber neck pillow. Meanwhile...I will enjoy the aerial tour of the Grand Canyon.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-17 12:16:10 and read 19864 times.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 20):
It will be optional on the A350XWB. Even then they would use the newer faster second geneartion dimming electrochromic shades.

If Boeing wants to beat them, they should have electronic tinting with plastic shades. Granted for those who are sensitive to light eye mask is a better alternative along with noise canceling headsets(or) ear plugs. Even with eTint you may find that one person who don't want to darken their window.

Do plastic shades help reduce cabin temp when B787 is sun bathing at an airport stand? Am I wrong in assuming eTint of no use in this scenario.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-08-17 13:49:41 and read 19732 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Am I wrong in assuming eTint of no use in this scenario.

Yes. It still blocks a lot of cabin heating, at least as much so as shades (which leave a gap of cabin air that gets super-hot between the shade and the window).

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Loran
Posted 2013-08-17 14:01:59 and read 19771 times.

Having flown ANA's NH204 (FRA-HND) service twice in June and July where there is light almost along the entire route over norhtern Siberia, I observed that the crew sets the windows to the darkest setting about 2hrs into the flight, however the system allowed me to override this setting to a certain degree. I could light it up to a medium setting but I could not set it to the lightest.

I find this a fair feature, the cabin was still dark enough that most of the pax were asleep, and I was able to look outside when I wanted to.

Regards,
Loran

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-17 14:10:15 and read 19680 times.

If windows bother you so much you could take a train, or, failing that, bring some eyeshades.


I think it's disrespectful to attempt to deny someone looking out of the window.



Like I said they are there for a reason !

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: BA677
Posted 2013-08-17 15:11:02 and read 19605 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 47):
If windows bother you so much you could take a train, or, failing that, bring some eyeshades.


I think it's disrespectful to attempt to deny someone looking out of the window.



Like I said they are there for a reason !


Totally agree you are a paying passenger and you have a right to look out of the window. If you want to sleep bring an eye shade. Just an idea, why don't they have a dark zone on the plane over the wing for example where you cant see that much any way. So if you plan to sleep then put the effort in to get a seat in that zone, just like I put the effort in to getting a window seat every time. And if you don't manage to get the dark zone then bad look, just as for me when I don't get my window seat.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: AA777
Posted 2013-08-17 16:18:41 and read 19481 times.

Quoting BA677 (Reply 48):

I disagree. There's no need to open the window and see nothing but GLARING SUN, when people could eek out another hour or even two of sleep before landing on a red-eye or transatlantic flight like MIA-LHR, IAD-FRA for example. It's obnoxious to be the one person whose window is filling the entire cabin with light when its clear that the vast majority of people are trying to sleep. One window lets in an incredible amount of light.

Perhaps when the routes are all daylight, its one thing, and isnt a big deal. But its another thing to open your window when you're trying to get a little bit of sleep to be ready to go when your body has lost 6 hours of time....

People suggest eyeshades, but I for one cannot sleep with an eyeshade over my eyes.... and I imagine there are many many others who also do not like the feeling of elastic bands around their head and unnatural pressure over their eyes.... it's not the norm for most people to sleep like that.

AA777

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-08-17 16:45:37 and read 19390 times.

As has been said above, it just boils down to common courtesy. I'm one of those people who likes sitting in the window seat and will raise the shade straight away. However, I'll also consider my seatmates. If I see the sun is in their face, I'll close the shade, or at least as much as I can so the sun's not a factor and I can still see a bit. And if there's nothing to see and the shade needs to be down, then it's a no-brainer. I haven't been on any long-haul flights, so I haven't had to tiptoe around that issue yet.

I've been on a couple of Virgin America flights where all of the shades were kept down to keep the cabin dark for all of the IFE. As such, I kept the shade down from after the initial climb to before final. I was mildly disappointed, but the weather was cloudy, so it wasn't the biggest loss in the world.

When it comes to the 787, I found that the sun didn't bother me when the window was fully dimmed. When the sun was coming through the windows, having the dimmable feature was an excellent alternative to just closing a shade. In any case, whenever I take "ownership" of the window, I have to remember that (to quote a character from a certain superhero series) that with great power comes great responsibility.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-08-17 19:51:20 and read 19263 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 39):

Having window shades open during the day when most are trying to sleep, is extremely disrespectful. I was fortunate to have window seats on all of my flights. I remember on my last flight home, the entire cabin was dark and all shades were down. This was right after sunrise. I opened my shade real quick to catch a glance outside, and it was like someone took a floodlight and lit up the cabin. My one window opened completely made a difference. I took a quick glance and closed the shade. And every time another window passenger opened their shade — no matter where they were seated in the cabin — it was instantaneously recognizable. The cabin was immediately filled with light. And most of those passengers closed their shades, too, out of common respect.

So, yes, you did pay for a window seat, but it's also not fair to inconvenience others for the sake of you wanting to constantly peer out into an endless horizon of clouds. I think there are certain times in a flight where you can be selfish, and have your shades open. People should generally be up at those times, and those who aren't are just out of luck. But if you see the majority of people trying to rest, it is not fair for you to selfishly keep your window open and make it unpleasant for others.

  

There is a reasonable expectation that - on a transoceanic flight, or on any long overland flight - passengers should be able to get enough sleep to arrive is something less than an exhausted state. There will always be some people who whine, "I bought a window seat! I want the window open!", but, in truth, they bought a ticket for the flight - not a particular seat.

I am not sure why people who, presumably, are considerate, helpful, and friendly when their feet are on Planet Earth suddenly become ogres when they enter an aircraft door - but they do. It sems like they lose all respect for any other person (assuming they had any respect to begin with), and become fascinated with the idea of showing they can make other passengers (and in many cases, the crew) miserable.

We can't fix that here. Let's just hope that the old adage - "What goes around, comes around" - applies to them. There is a special place in hell, I am sure...

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2013-08-17 20:12:34 and read 18827 times.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 51):
We can't fix that here. Let's just hope that the old adage - "What goes around, comes around" - applies to them. There is a special place in hell, I am sure...

Yeah cause no one gets claustrophobic and really needs to see outside to avoid anxiety or stress... IMO there is a special place in hell for people who want to tell others how to run their lives. (this goes both ways). How about if you have a problem with a window open you go talk to the person and see if you cant compromise. You want to sleep? I want to /need to see outside. Why should your desires trump mine?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Qfflyer
Posted 2013-08-17 20:41:39 and read 18783 times.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 49):
I disagree. There's no need to open the window and see nothing but GLARING SUN, when people could eek out another hour or even two of sleep before landing on a red-eye or transatlantic flight like MIA-LHR, IAD-FRA for example.

Why is your right to sleep more important that my right to look out of the window, or to use natural light to stay awake to avoid jet lag [or get into the next time zone]?? I particularly on a daylight flight don't want to sleep, but if shades are shut, and its dark, its much harder to stay awake and acclimatise.
As others have said, if you want darkness, use an eye mask, if you don't like eye masks, don't force others to deal with your issues.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: reality
Posted 2013-08-17 22:01:22 and read 18656 times.

Quoting Loran (Reply 46):
I find this a fair feature, the cabin was still dark enough that most of the pax were asleep, and I was able to look outside when I wanted to.

Seems like the perfect solution. Solves both sides of the issue--those who want to sleep in relative darkness can, those who want to look out the window can. No need for anyone to be annoyed.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-08-17 23:08:01 and read 18626 times.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 52):
You want to sleep? I want to /need to see outside. Why should your desires trump mine?
Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 52):

Why is your right to sleep more important that my right to look out of the window, or to use natural light to stay awake to avoid jet lag [or get into the next time zone]?? I particularly on a daylight flight don't want to sleep, but if shades are shut, and its dark, its much harder to stay awake and acclimatise.
As others have said, if you want darkness, use an eye mask, if you don't like eye masks, don't force others to deal with your issues.

The FACT that virtually every airline in the world who operates flights that are long haul, does something tantamount to forcing all passengers to close their window shades... is the deciding factor to who has more of a right in this situation. Most of the people in which I told I had window seats on my flights, had the initial reaction of, "Yeah, but I mean, you're not gonna really be looking outside much, anyway." I disagreed, as I am an aviation enthusiast, and I am not privileged enough to fly all the time. However, when I found myself in the air on two, TRUE long haul flights which were 13-14 hours a piece, I found myself not caring about what was outside, the vast majority of the time. When the plane was descending (last 30 minutes of flight), yes, I was glued to my window. Throughout the other 98% of my flights, I could care less what was outside, save for the occasional glance every now and then.

If you're claustrophobic, being in an enclosed tube 35,000ft above the earth for 15 hours, probably isn't something you need to be doing to begin with. Also, I'm not sure how many people want to stay awake the majority of a flight over ten hours. I know I slept the majority of the time through both my 13 and 14 hour flights. Even on my shorter 8 hour flights, I did a lot of sleeping. Staying awake throughout an entire 6.5 - 7 hour flight may be feasible, but not on a true long haul.

I want to know what is so mythical and fascinating about endless clouds and sunlight, that you people feel you all are SO much in need to bother the vast majority of other passengers, because you MUST be able to look outside?? No matter what side you're on, someone is going to have to compromise. You can't throw in "why must your desires trump mine," in a manner which suggests your personal desires and wishes are somehow more valid and in need of absolute accommodation, versus the other side.

Which once again leads me to my opening remark: the fact that they're airlines which have policies that require the cabin be dimmed at some point, speaks to who's more entitled in this situation, if there is someone more entitled. I'm sitting on a Boeing 777-300ER with 350+ passengers, I don't need one or two people who have this urgent need of being able to see outside, making things miserable for me. And I shouldn't have to wear an eye mask—something I'm not accustomed to wearing and something that would bother me—to accommodate people who selfishly must peer outside relentlessly to see nothing other than clouds and sun.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2013-08-17 23:36:21 and read 18527 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 55):
If you're claustrophobic, being in an enclosed tube 35,000ft above the earth for 15 hours, probably isn't something you need to be doing to begin with.

So your position is that people who are legitimately claustrophobic and need the view outside to be able to fly have essentially no right to travel and should all just stay home?

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 55):
nd I shouldn't have to wear an eye mask—something I'm not accustomed to wearing and something that would bother me—to accommodate people who selfishly must peer outside relentlessly to see nothing other than clouds and sun.

So people can do whatever they want so long as YOU are not inconvenienced. And you demand consideration but show no consideration yourself? Nice double standard. Pot meet kettle.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: airnorth
Posted 2013-08-17 23:55:12 and read 18507 times.

OK I'll chime in. Personally I can't wait to try the dimmable windows. It drives me crazy when people close the shutters! My last flight I was stuck in the middle seat, and the guy by the window immediately closes both of the blinds he can reach! Really?! Our flight path was over the Rockies, during the day, i just don't understand, why have windows? Obviously when the sun is at a low angle and its blinding, you close the blinds, but otherwise, I want to look out all the time, even at night, to me its one of the enjoyments of flying. Why wouldn't you want to view the clouds, and oceans from the top side? Hell I look at them every day from the bottom up!
Anyway, I say lighten up, Pun intended!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-18 00:08:18 and read 18476 times.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 52):

Yeah cause no one gets claustrophobic and really needs to see outside to avoid anxiety or stress... IMO there is a special place in hell for people who want to tell others how to run their lives. (this goes both ways). How about if you have a problem with a window open you go talk to the person and see if you cant compromise. You want to sleep? I want to /need to see outside. Why should your desires trump mine?

Very well said.

Quoting Qfflyer (Reply 53):

Why is your right to sleep more important that my right to look out of the window, or to use natural light to stay awake to avoid jet lag [or get into the next time zone]?? I particularly on a daylight flight don't want to sleep, but if shades are shut, and its dark, its much harder to stay awake and acclimatise.
As others have said, if you want darkness, use an eye mask, if you don't like eye masks, don't force others to deal with your issues.

Couldn't agree more !

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: sassiciai
Posted 2013-08-18 00:08:49 and read 18469 times.

The situation on long haul is not black and white (pun intended!)

Such flights have a sequence of phases.

After take off and climb, there is a drinks service, and then the meal service - that's probably the first 2 hours accounted for. Window shades up if you want.

Once the meal service is over, most people either use the IFE, read a book (for which there is a dedicated light) or try to sleep, and common sense says window shades down. In any case, it's very often dark outside, so shade position then is quite irrelevant

Two hours before arrival, there is generally another meal service (breakfast or snacks) which is the cunning way the crew has to get people awake and ready for arrival. Window shades can be up from now on

Twenty minutes out, aircraft starts its descent, and all window shades MUST be up

This means that us enthusiasts get to look out during the tricky parts of the flight, while the entire cabin is dark enough for most people for the long middle part of the flight.

I do sneak an occasional peak out from time to time, using the pillow or blanket as a partial shade!

No need to get your knickers in a twist over such an issue, as some above seem to!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-08-18 02:32:41 and read 18318 times.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 56):
So your position is that people who are legitimately claustrophobic and need the view outside to be able to fly have essentially no right to travel and should all just stay home?
Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 56):
So people can do whatever they want so long as YOU are not inconvenienced. And you demand consideration but show no consideration yourself? Nice double standard. Pot meet kettle.

No... it is my position that rude, self-centered, inconsiderate people should all just stay home. Your whining aside, when one person decides to make a vast majority of other passengers on a plane uncomfortable, that is seldom "claustrophobia"; it is almost always sheer selfishness.

And it is not a "double standard"; it is a case of ONE PERSON deciding to make an entire cabin uncomfortable. That is simple, crass disregard for anyone else... and if you don't recognize that, I think we all understand your attitude....

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: BA677
Posted 2013-08-18 03:10:35 and read 18237 times.

I personally will try to fly a 787 if I can. There is a lot more to see outside than clouds and sun. As I said before I have a right to see out side so will look out side if I want. I always fly Y and I cant see how you can get a good sleep there anyway unless you have a row to your self.



Quoting Qfflyer (Reply 53):
Why is your right to sleep more important that my right to look out of the window, or to use natural light to stay awake to avoid jet lag [or get into the next time zone]?? I particularly on a daylight flight don't want to sleep, but if shades are shut, and its dark, its much harder to stay awake and acclimatise.

Exactly, there was a flight from DXB to BKK it left Dubai around 8am and arrived in the evening. If you just had allot of sleep you are going to find it harder to acclimatise to the time zone and you will stay awake were it is then the normal time to go to bed. If you arrive at destination in the evening and you just had allot of sleep it is not the best thing. When travelling long haul it is always best to try and acclimatise to your destination time zone as soon as possible, and the natural light from which we have all evolved to respond to is the best way to do it.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: by738
Posted 2013-08-18 04:40:10 and read 18130 times.

one of the Thomson 787s has cracks in their photofilms after only 3 weeks of service

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-08-18 10:31:47 and read 17851 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Even with eTint you may find that one person who don't want to darken their window.

He won't have much of a choice in this on a 787 and other planes that will adopt similar windows.
Read:-

Quoting Loran (Reply 46):
I observed that the crew sets the windows to the darkest setting about 2hrs into the flight, however the system allowed me to override this setting to a certain degree. I could light it up to a medium setting but I could not set it to the lightest.
I find this a fair feature, the cabin was still dark enough that most of the pax were asleep, and I was able to look outside when I wanted to.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Bacon907
Posted 2013-08-18 12:24:28 and read 17709 times.

I believe that the reason people consider it selfish and inconsiderate is because you are one person. When you rudely leave the window wide open for the entire flight you potentially inconvenience/disrupt 10, 20, 30....maybe more.

So to make it clear just because you want to look outside it's okay to make 30 other people uncomfortable/unable to sleep? Yes that is inconsiderate and rude.

However during climb out and decent.....windows should be open.
And if you look about and see that everybody is awake or most of the windows are open....then it's okay to follow suit.

I completely understand wanting to look out the window. As can most people on here. We are all airplane geeks. But just cuz you're geeking out over being on an airplane and so very very high in the sky. That doesn't give you the right to make the flight miserable for the rest of the people that are just trying to get to wherever the plane is heading.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Let the drama and posturing resume.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-08-18 12:52:14 and read 17668 times.

As a crew member here's my opinion!

If the flight is a scheduled daylight flight (eg, east to west operated in daylight hours for both origin and destination) them by all means keep the windows open......but if the flight is scheduled as a through the night even though the actual nighttime bit may be short (eg flying over the North Pole in summer time) it is only courtesy to help everyone maximise their sleep in order to adjust to time zones by keeping your blind shut!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-08-18 14:17:07 and read 17591 times.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 19):
That's something I never understood. Why on earth would anybody book a window seat if they are afraid to look outside the window?

Once upon a time I got an aisle seat on a NW 727. The flight was full. There was a girl about 18 years old in the window seat in my row. At the gate she got in her seat and the very first thing she did was pull the window shade down. And left it there. About 1/2 through the flight I asked her why she had a window seat and left the window shade down. Her answer? "Because I like to be in complete control." Ah ha, an up and coming control freak.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-18 14:33:44 and read 17489 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 66):

You should have told her you control entry/exit to her seat.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-08-18 15:48:47 and read 17476 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
Seems like a silly gimmick.

Yes and one more way Boeing is reinventing the wheel.

Quoting ATA L1011 (Reply 27):
How much weight savings is gained by this feature vs shades?

Even if they save 200 kilos, that weight could be saved elsewhere...

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 55):
I don't need one or two people who have this urgent need of being able to see outside, making things miserable for me. And I shouldn't have to wear an eye mask—something I'm not accustomed to wearing and something that would bother me—to accommodate people who selfishly must peer outside relentlessly to see nothing other than clouds and sun.

Me me me, the typical egocentric person.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 59):
I do sneak an occasional peak out from time to time, using the pillow or blanket as a partial shade!

No need to get your knickers in a twist over such an issue, as some above seem to!

Exactly what I do and also think people here need to get perspective.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 60):
No... it is my position that rude, self-centered, inconsiderate people should all just stay home. Your whining aside, when one person decides to make a vast majority of other passengers on a plane uncomfortable, that is seldom "claustrophobia"; it is almost always sheer selfishness.

And it is not a "double standard"; it is a case of ONE PERSON deciding to make an entire cabin uncomfortable. That is simple, crass disregard for anyone else... and if you don't recognize that, I think we all understand your attitude....

Sorry to blow you out of your comfort zone, but the other day I was speaking with a longtime friend , about concorde flights and he said : I used to smoke my cigar and laugh a lot, and nobody would complain, people would stand and the tons of pictures, even bother some celebrities on board and nobody got mad the whole attitude on flights was of a big restaurant in the air like a party of sorts" HE flew on the Concorde at least 20 times !!!

People should be happy about the wonderful thing he have today, and the marvels modern technology brings, maybe some A neters here need a reality check, because a mere 100 years ago the norm was spending a week or so on a crummy ocean liner in horrendous rocking motion and cramped quarters. even a 14 hour flight inconvinienced is a very short period of time, but I guess prima donnas and generation ME ME ME are alive and well in A net.

Quoting by738 (Reply 62):
one of the Thomson 787s has cracks in their photofilms after only 3 weeks of service

mmm and nobody has taken into account how hot those windows get...

Quoting Bacon907 (Reply 64):
So to make it clear just because you want to look outside it's okay to make 30 other people uncomfortable/unable to sleep? Yes that is inconsiderate and rude.

So also we should ban children who cry non stop 3 hours, or playing cheerful children, or obese or ANYTHING and inconveniences you?

Quoting Bacon907 (Reply 64):
That doesn't give you the right to make the flight miserable for the rest of the people that are just trying to get to wherever the plane is heading.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Let the drama and posturing resume.

Curiously the drama is coming from control freaks and prima donnas, I have just experienced a 4 hour flight with a dad with its 2 children in the row behind me, shouting, cheering opening the shade, pressing the light buttons you name it... The parent tried to calm them down but they were like they had 2 red bulls each one!!!, finally they settled down when another pax let them use their Ipad with some movie, then at descent and the required non electronics command was issued the iPad was take away and then we had 2 crying children.... when disembarking the dad apologized like 20 times, yes I was not happy but Iunderstood the guy and told him "been there done that" dont worry. I was not a big deal, but people here think that light is an inconvenience? using an eye shade is an inconvenience? COME ON, inconvenience is walking 4 miles each way to get water....not feeling bad because some of us like to see clouds and the curvature of earth.

For me the OLD shades are perfect and come hell or high water I will look outside, sorry for ruining your life for not doing what YOU or someone else thinks is better for them.

REgards
TRB

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-08-18 16:03:36 and read 17412 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):


You sound like a dense drama queen, intent on trying to twist other peoples words to make a point you never really had. Practically everyone you quoted, blatantly stated they are aviation buffs and would love to have their windows opened throughout the flight, in a perfect world. HOWEVER, since unlike you and some others, apparently, since their parents instilled common courtesy and awareness of others in them, they don't make selfish decisions that completely disregard others.

It's funny because I think if a general poll were taken, most people would agree that—given two choices—Person A being someone who thinks of others and tries to accommodate them by not keeping their window shades open throughout the duration of the flight ... and Person B who insists on being the butt hole who has to have their window shades open throughout the flight... Person B would be labeled a 'control freak.' Just sayin'. Carry on.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-08-18 16:05:48 and read 17401 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
Even if they save 200 kilos, that weight could be saved elsewhere...

And that is where exactly? Seriously, where? Since you know so much...


Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
For me the OLD shades are perfect and come hell or high water I will look outside,

I would think that the fact that your mother did not teach you common courtesy is really not something you should be proudly proclaiming. I myself do try have others think kindly of my mother and what she taught me and I think about my public actions and try to be courteous of others. Which is what most people here are talking about with regards to "not opening the shade". It's not "never" and "no you can't", it's people saying to be appropriate in your actions and considerate of others around you. And for all your bluster, I bet that you are absolutely aware of this and do not open your shade when it is you alone flooding the cabin with light.

I don't know why..... wait... silly me, I do know why: this is A.net, this is where people take things to extremes precisely because they aren't in public (really). The truth is this is an issue for a very small amount of flight time. What percentage of flights is this an issue? Only when you have flight that occur during daylight when people are normally settling into activities desiring darkness, like sleeping. The departure, approach and flights at night, is not when this is an issue.

Tugg

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-08-18 16:39:43 and read 17323 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 69):

What would you have done with the kids on the flight I had, I ask this because you clearly have not comprehension of the point I was trying to make.
so to make things easier this is a good example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxadhjsy1UI

Quoting tugger (Reply 70):

It no extremes its simply a shade, nobody will die or get sick and commit suicide because I like to see out of the window , when someone else thinks sleeping in darkness is a god given right. I can sleep in broad daylight, because my eyes have some sunshades called eyelids.

Sorry to inconveniece your perceptions BTW my mom told me manners, that is why I can identify self entitled people, and also she taught me not to duel on the small details, hence I dont care about how bad light can be for people, I care more for example of not disturbing fellow pax by going 5 times to the lav or for smashing the overhead compartment door, or obstructing the aisle, I could go on but I guess light is SO MORE important than a loud bang or dropping your bag on someones head...

Then again you are right this is Anet, where people cant stand losing sleep over some light.... what would you do if the electric shading fails for some reason on a transpacific flight and you have all light coming in? sue the airline because you could not sleep?

TRB

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: angmoh
Posted 2013-08-18 17:19:56 and read 17228 times.

I don't know where this tread is going...

A big difference is the type of flight you talk about. US Transcontinental, within Asia, within Europe this discussion about manners is more or less relevant (although in my personal opinion it is a rude "i can do what I want" versus a rude "you must do what others tell you to do" argument).

Transpacific or Europe to Asia is a different story (Asia to Europe to a lesser extend). Here the cabin is blacked out in scheduled way to manage the crowd. You fly 14 hours with a 5-9 hours time zone difference and I you fly on to Australia or New Zealand the time difference becomes 12 hours with a 24 hours travel time. A lot of people fly these routes for business and not for fun so any sleep you can get is critical. If you have flown 14 hours and gone straight from the airport to a meeting, you know what I am talking about. And those people are your high yield premium passengers.

So the normal protocol is take off from LHR at 10 PM, serve drinks, serve dinner and after about 4 hours turn off the lights, close the blinds and "force" everyone to sleep. Outside it is not 2 AM London time, but 5 AM Middle East and the sun is coming up. Once the cabin is dark, 2-2.5 hours before landing in Asia (SIN, HKG etc) the lights come on (nice 777 or A380 mood lighting so highly praised by the same people who want to have the shade open so they can watch outside) breakfast is served and during breakfast some blinds open but most stay closed as the glare is often just too high. During the 6-8 hours of blackout, the majority of passengers (80-90%) are sleeping.

Now go back to topic: do these 787 dimmable shades work? I don't know - never tried them. If they would work, the crews would use them (overriding all individual settings) and black out the cabin in full making the whole discussion about manners irrelevant. If they don't work, airlines go back to mechanical shades. However, I can see some airlines go for having both: electrically dimmable shades during daylight to manage glare (mechanical shades can not do that) and mechanical shades to ensure a full blackout at night for this 14hrs intercontinental flights.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: AA777
Posted 2013-08-18 17:56:06 and read 17180 times.

Quoting Qfflyer (Reply 53):
Why is your right to sleep more important that my right to look out of the window, or to use natural light to stay awake to avoid jet lag [or get into the next time zone]?? I particularly on a daylight flight don't want to sleep, but if shades are shut, and its dark, its much harder to stay awake and acclimatise.
As others have said, if you want darkness, use an eye mask, if you don't like eye masks, don't force others to deal with your issues.

LOL, Its called common courtesy... And just for your information, If I had it my way, I would probably have the window open more than the average passenger, for instance on daylight flights across the U.S. But I take note of my fellow pax and don't consider my desire to have a window open a lot more important than that of several other people's apparent desire to sleep. If I can see most people are sleeping, trying to use IFE, or wanting to sleep, I will put my shade down. Every so often I may crack the window to look out, maybe take a photo, but I will keep it down for the sake of others.

But lets continue playing devils advocate here...

As far as the argument about 'exposure to light to help adjust...' well... it takes the human body dayS to adjust its circadian rhythm. Day/Night exposure matters, sure, but sitting having had a couple hours more exposure to the sun is not going to make any significant difference when you've changed 6-8, or more hours. What is going to matter more is your sleep/wake cycles over the next few days. If you choose to stay inside all day, it may not help you adjust to the new day/night cycle. Regarding this argument, sometimes, it just makes more SENSE to keep the shades closed. This is particularly true on red-eye and eastern-bound night flights wherein you arrive the next morning.

And by the way - your preference to look out the window is no more important than my preference to sleep - so lets not get things twisted here. Your desire to look out the window imposes on my desire for a dark area so I can sleep/rest. Why is that more important? Furthermore I am forced to wear an eye mask, which few people actually ever wear, due to your lack of consideration. I would argue that forcing someone to wear an eye mask is much more of an imposition than asking someone to put a window shade down. There are many other ways to entertain oneself on a plane these days. Similarly, why should I be "forced to deal with your issue" of wanting to look out a window for 10 hours? And PS, a window shade isn't fastened to your face.


AA777

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-08-18 20:50:16 and read 17028 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
come hell or high water I will look outside

And you are calling someone else a "prima donna"???

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: cosyr
Posted 2013-08-18 21:19:50 and read 17051 times.

I just came back from NRT when the sun rose 3-4 hours before landing. Every window in the front J cabin was dimmed as dark as they go, and the cabin was comfortably dark for sleeping, but when my wife sat up to look out the window, the sun pierced through like looking at an LED lightbulb. Concentrated light, not disbursing. I could imagine in Y it was harder to sleep in the window seats on that side.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-18 21:31:52 and read 17015 times.

Unbelievable, I think the only way some of the posters could be happy is if they stayed home with all the curtains closed
in a dark room with endless access to video games !

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):

Curiously the drama is coming from control freaks and prima donnas, I have just experienced a 4 hour flight with a dad with its 2 children in the row behind me, shouting, cheering opening the shade, pressing the light buttons you name it... The parent tried to calm them down but they were like they had 2 red bulls each one!!!, finally they settled down when another pax let them use their Ipad with some movie, then at descent and the required non electronics command was issued the iPad was take away and then we had 2 crying children.... when disembarking the dad apologized like 20 times, yes I was not happy but Iunderstood the guy and told him "been there done that" dont worry. I was not a big deal, but people here think that light is an inconvenience? using an eye shade is an inconvenience? COME ON, inconvenience is walking 4 miles each way to get water....not feeling bad because some of us like to see clouds and the curvature of earth.

For me the OLD shades are perfect and come hell or high water I will look outside, sorry for ruining your life for not doing what YOU or someone else thinks is better for them.

REgards
TRB

Very well said !

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2013-08-18 21:57:10 and read 16920 times.

Quoting n797mx (Reply 9):
Not to mention the thing got so bloody hot that you couldn't stand being next to it for more than a few minutes when dimmed.

Is that from the electronics, or the dimmed window absorbing solar heat?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-08-18 23:23:20 and read 16859 times.

I read every post. My thoughts at the end is there should be shades, but I like the feature to keep out the brightest light so others can sleep.

Quoting Qfflyer (Reply 53):
Why is your right to sleep more important that my right to look out of the window,

You're not stopped by limiting how clear the glass is. It can be turned to a tinted window and you adjust to see, but not full brightness which is a fair compromise for everyone.

Quoting Loran (Reply 46):
I observed that the crew sets the windows to the darkest setting about 2hrs into the flight, however the system allowed me to override this setting to a certain degree. I could light it up to a medium setting but I could not set it to the lightest.

That sounds fair.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: BA677
Posted 2013-08-19 02:05:34 and read 16767 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 71):
It no extremes its simply a shade, nobody will die or get sick and commit suicide because I like to see out of the window , when someone else thinks sleeping in darkness is a god given right. I can sleep in broad daylight, because my eyes have some sunshades called eyelids.

Sorry to inconveniece your perceptions BTW my mom told me manners, that is why I can identify self entitled people, and also she taught me not to duel on the small details, hence I dont care about how bad light can be for people, I care more for example of not disturbing fellow pax by going 5 times to the lav or for smashing the overhead compartment door, or obstructing the aisle, I could go on but I guess light is SO MORE important than a loud bang or dropping your bag on someones head...

Then again you are right this is Anet, where people cant stand losing sleep over some light.... what would you do if the electric shading fails for some reason on a transpacific flight and you have all light coming in? sue the airline because you could not sleep?



Welcome to my brand new respected list.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 76):
Unbelievable, I think the only way some of the posters could be happy is if they stayed home with all the curtains closed
in a dark room with endless access to video games !

lol  

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-08-19 02:10:34 and read 16703 times.

This thread has really descended into a childish mud sling!

People, have some respect!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-08-19 02:52:56 and read 16669 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 75):
the sun pierced through like looking at an LED lightbulb. Concentrated light, not disbursing. I could imagine in Y it was harder to sleep in the window seats on that side.

In response to feedback, the later 787s have a darker max tint than the early planes delivered to the japanese airlines.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: QFFlyer
Posted 2013-08-19 03:40:53 and read 16597 times.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 73):
As far as the argument about 'exposure to light to help adjust...' well... it takes the human body dayS to adjust its circadian rhythm. Day/Night exposure matters, sure, but sitting having had a couple hours more exposure to the sun is not going to make any significant difference when you've changed 6-8, or more hours. What is going to matter more is your sleep/wake cycles over the next few days. If you choose to stay inside all day, it may not help you adjust to the new day/night cycle. Regarding this argument, sometimes, it just makes more SENSE to keep the shades closed. This is particularly true on red-eye and eastern-bound night flights wherein you arrive the next morning

Thank you for telling me about my body ....obviously you know it better than I do.....   
I travel enough to know what what works for me and what doesn't. For example if I am flying back from LHR to SYD, I will take a mid day departure, getting into Asia in the morning, for a day time flight to SYD. This flight in particular I do not want to sleep so I get into SYD tired for a good nights sleep. I have been doing this for the last 10 years, and this works FOR ME. What doesn't work is when the shades are shut during the daylight flight "encouraging" sleep - so by the time you land, you aren't tired and don't sleep.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-08-19 04:49:52 and read 16485 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 81):
In response to feedback, the later 787s have a darker max tint than the early planes delivered to the japanese airlines.

What surprises me about this is that this issue wasn't picked up in time for it to be implemented on the first customer deliveries.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: dc9northwest
Posted 2013-08-19 05:12:36 and read 16434 times.

Interesting that people are fighting about window shades up/down when the idea of the thread is how much better it is to satisfy both parties by having what the 787 has.

You can see out and not disturb everyone else as much as before. Win-win for everyone.

Hail Boeing, I'd rather praise you than god.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: cosyr
Posted 2013-08-19 11:33:39 and read 16190 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 81):
Quoting cosyr (Reply 75):
the sun pierced through like looking at an LED lightbulb. Concentrated light, not disbursing. I could imagine in Y it was harder to sleep in the window seats on that side.

In response to feedback, the later 787s have a darker max tint than the early planes delivered to the japanese airlines.

This was the plane's 3rd ever flight last week, so that is the newest 787 for UA, and would have the latest windows. If it was ever more transparent than that, I would not like to have flown on the earliest planes.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-19 13:47:01 and read 16003 times.

Was there any weight reduction with eTint or does it add more weight. My gut feeling all the cables and switches actually add weight.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-08-19 13:53:59 and read 15985 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 86):
Was there any weight reduction with eTint or does it add more weight. My gut feeling all the cables and switches actually add weight.

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. I haven't seen any numbers, but let's assume the new system added weight over just shades. Then factor in all of the weight reductions throughout the rest of the aircraft, and it looks like a good trade-off.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-08-19 15:14:52 and read 15877 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 84):
Interesting that people are fighting about window shades up/down when the idea of the thread is how much better it is to satisfy both parties by having what the 787 has.

You can see out and not disturb everyone else as much as before. Win-win for everyone.

Hail Boeing, I'd rather praise you than god.

I think you have a valid point, maybe its not he best out there but its a good compromise, now, since I havent flown in a 787 yet where are the switches for activating it? in the overhead light/air/call the FA or near the window? I ask this because children will play with the switches if they are available to them....

Best Regards

TRB

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-08-19 17:36:57 and read 15846 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 88):
where are the switches for activating it? in the overhead light/air/call the FA or near the window? I ask this because children will play with the switches if they are available to them....

Directly below the window.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d6...evergreen/Dreamstrike/DSC00332.jpg

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-08-19 17:49:29 and read 15792 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 84):
Interesting that people are fighting about window shades up/down when the idea of the thread is how much better it is to satisfy both parties by having what the 787 has.

You can see out and not disturb everyone else as much as before. Win-win for everyone.

Except if the windows get hotter than they otherwise would, as was mentioned at the beginning of the thread. I've got no problem with the principle of dimming the window, but if I'm in the window seat and getting roasted because the window is tinted (and I have no idea how bad it is, since I've never flown on a 787), then I'm going to de-tint the window. With the shades, while the shade itself may get hot, it generally doesn't radiate that heat into the cabin.

-Mir

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-08-19 21:51:58 and read 15615 times.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 89):
Directly below the window.

Another thing that children will use and abuse, to the dismay of some fellow A neters....

TRB

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-20 13:16:44 and read 15352 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
Hopefully Boeing will go back to plastic shades. I don't think electronic tinting adds any value other than additional electric components, hence fire risk.

That's my point, it may not be too complicated, but it's certainly much more complicated the the good old fashioned shades and I'm pretty sure it'll not be as reliable and easy to fix.

Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 43):
I always hate when I don't get a window seat and am seated next to someone who immediately closes the shade and leaves it there for the duration of the flight. I understand the reasoning if they are sleeping, but I typically don't fly on long flights (under 3 hours) and most (of the people seated next to me who close the shade) don't sleep. It's frustrating.

Looks like you often sit next to folks with flying-phobia!

Quoting tcfc424 (Reply 43):
I guess my point is, I think the dimmable shades are great. And I completely agree...if you want to sleep on a flight and are sensitive to light...use an eyemask...to go with your microfiber neck pillow. Meanwhile...I will enjoy the aerial tour of the Grand Canyon.

They're great until a F/A decides to set them to the darkest setting while you're marveling at the beauty of the Grand Canyon!   

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Even with eTint you may find that one person who don't want to darken their window.

Don't worry, this problem has been taken care of, the cabin crew can override the pax and darken the windows whenever they like, that's why I'm not a fan of electronic tinting and will avoid the 787 on scenic flights.

Quoting BA677 (Reply 48):
Totally agree you are a paying passenger and you have a right to look out of the window. If you want to sleep bring an eye shade. Just an idea, why don't they have a dark zone on the plane over the wing for example where you cant see that much any way. So if you plan to sleep then put the effort in to get a seat in that zone, just like I put the effort in to getting a window seat every time. And if you don't manage to get the dark zone then bad look, just as for me when I don't get my window seat.

   Great idea!

Quoting AA777 (Reply 49):
I disagree. There's no need to open the window and see nothing but GLARING SUN, when people could eek out another hour or even two of sleep before landing on a red-eye or transatlantic flight like MIA-LHR, IAD-FRA for example. It's obnoxious to be the one person whose window is filling the entire cabin with light when its clear that the vast majority of people are trying to sleep. One window lets in an incredible amount of light.

Nothing but GLARING SUN! Really?! As I said in my earlier reply, when the sun is too bright (usually after sunrise) even I don't open my window, but when I'm enjoying a spectacular view and the sun is well above the horizon I have every right to open my window.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 49):
People suggest eyeshades, but I for one cannot sleep with an eyeshade over my eyes.... and I imagine there are many many others who also do not like the feeling of elastic bands around their head and unnatural pressure over their eyes.... it's not the norm for most people to sleep like that.

That's why I think BA677's idea is brilliant.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 51):
There is a reasonable expectation that - on a transoceanic flight, or on any long overland flight - passengers should be able to get enough sleep to arrive is something less than an exhausted state. There will always be some people who whine, "I bought a window seat! I want the window open!", but, in truth, they bought a ticket for the flight - not a particular seat.

   I totally disagree, most airlines allow pax to select their seats and some charge a fee for seat assignment.




Quoting alfa164 (Reply 51):
I am not sure why people who, presumably, are considerate, helpful, and friendly when their feet are on Planet Earth suddenly become ogres when they enter an aircraft door - but they do. It sems like they lose all respect for any other person (assuming they had any respect to begin with), and become fascinated with the idea of showing they can make other passengers (and in many cases, the crew) miserable.

Since you're an a.netter, I presume you love flying, how come a person who loves flying deny his fellow aviation enthusiasts the right to enjoy looking out the window is just beyond me! The most beautiful and unique thing about flying is the ability to enjoy the beauty of planet Earth from high above, and I think almost everyone here agrees with me!

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 51):
We can't fix that here. Let's just hope that the old adage - "What goes around, comes around" - applies to them. There is a special place in hell, I am sure...

Wow! I didn't know opening your window shade to appreciate God's creation will send you to hell! It must be one of the deadly sins in your book.   

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 52):
Yeah cause no one gets claustrophobic and really needs to see outside to avoid anxiety or stress... IMO there is a special place in hell for people who want to tell others how to run their lives. (this goes both ways). How about if you have a problem with a window open you go talk to the person and see if you cant compromise. You want to sleep? I want to /need to see outside. Why should your desires trump mine?

  

Quoting reality (Reply 54):
Seems like the perfect solution. Solves both sides of the issue--those who want to sleep in relative darkness can, those who want to look out the window can. No need for anyone to be annoyed.
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 84):
You can see out and not disturb everyone else as much as before. Win-win for everyone.

I don't think so. Remember, this system puts the cabin crew in full control of all windows, if they darken the windows too much only those who want to sleep will be happy, a very possible scenario in my opinion.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 55):
I want to know what is so mythical and fascinating about endless clouds and sunlight, that you people feel you all are SO much in need to bother the vast majority of other passengers, because you MUST be able to look outside?? No matter what side you're on, someone is going to have to compromise. You can't throw in "why must your desires trump mine," in a manner which suggests your personal desires and wishes are somehow more valid and in need of absolute accommodation, versus the other side.

Which once again leads me to my opening remark: the fact that they're airlines which have policies that require the cabin be dimmed at some point, speaks to who's more entitled in this situation, if there is someone more entitled. I'm sitting on a Boeing 777-300ER with 350 passengers, I don't need one or two people who have this urgent need of being able to see outside, making things miserable for me. And I shouldn't have to wear an eye mask%u2014something I'm not accustomed to wearing and something that would bother me%u2014to accommodate people who selfishly must peer outside relentlessly to see nothing other than clouds and sun.

Here's your answer...

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 41):
I get bored quickly when looking at cloudy skies or endless ocean, but when flying overland and the skies are clear it's a different story!

No reasonable person would enjoy looking at clouds or water for a long time! But when flying overland the views are often interesting.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 56):
Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 55):
If you're claustrophobic, being in an enclosed tube 35,000ft above the earth for 15 hours, probably isn't something you need to be doing to begin with.

So your position is that people who are legitimately claustrophobic and need the view outside to be able to fly have essentially no right to travel and should all just stay home?

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 55):
nd I shouldn't have to wear an eye mask%u2014something I'm not accustomed to wearing and something that would bother me%u2014to accommodate people who selfishly must peer outside relentlessly to see nothing other than clouds and sun.

So people can do whatever they want so long as YOU are not inconvenienced. And you demand consideration but show no consideration yourself? Nice double standard. Pot meet kettle.

  

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 59):
The situation on long haul is not black and white (pun intended!)

Such flights have a sequence of phases.

After take off and climb, there is a drinks service, and then the meal service - that's probably the first 2 hours accounted for. Window shades up if you want.

Once the meal service is over, most people either use the IFE, read a book (for which there is a dedicated light) or try to sleep, and common sense says window shades down. In any case, it's very often dark outside, so shade position then is quite irrelevant

Two hours before arrival, there is generally another meal service (breakfast or snacks) which is the cunning way the crew has to get people awake and ready for arrival. Window shades can be up from now on

Twenty minutes out, aircraft starts its descent, and all window shades MUST be up

This means that us enthusiasts get to look out during the tricky parts of the flight, while the entire cabin is dark enough for most people for the long middle part of the flight.

And it also means that we miss out on enjoying the beauty of Iceland, Greenland & Northern Canada on TATL daytime flights!

Quoting by738 (Reply 62):
one of the Thomson 787s has cracks in their photofilms after only 3 weeks of service

There we go! So much for reliable.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 63):
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Even with eTint you may find that one person who don't want to darken their window.

He won't have much of a choice in this on a 787 and other planes that will adopt similar windows.
Read:-

Quoting Loran (Reply 46):
I observed that the crew sets the windows to the darkest setting about 2hrs into the flight, however the system allowed me to override this setting to a certain degree. I could light it up to a medium setting but I could not set it to the lightest.
I find this a fair feature, the cabin was still dark enough that most of the pax were asleep, and I was able to look outside when I wanted to.

That's why I'll continue to fly on old school planes except for red eye & transpacific flights.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
Quoting ATA L1011 (Reply 27):
How much weight savings is gained by this feature vs shades?

Even if they save 200 kilos, that weight could be saved elsewhere...

I doubt there will be any savings in the long run. I said it before and I'll say it again, when the planes age the electronic shades will break down more often than the old fashioned shades and will be more expensive to fix, re: reply 62

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
Curiously the drama is coming from control freaks and prima donnas, I have just experienced a 4 hour flight with a dad with its 2 children in the row behind me, shouting, cheering opening the shade, pressing the light buttons you name it... The parent tried to calm them down but they were like they had 2 red bulls each one!!!, finally they settled down when another pax let them use their Ipad with some movie, then at descent and the required non electronics command was issued the iPad was take away and then we had 2 crying children.... when disembarking the dad apologized like 20 times, yes I was not happy but Iunderstood the guy and told him "been there done that" dont worry. I was not a big deal, but people here think that light is an inconvenience? using an eye shade is an inconvenience? COME ON, inconvenience is walking 4 miles each way to get water....not feeling bad because some of us like to see clouds and the curvature of earth.

For me the OLD shades are perfect and come hell or high water I will look outside, sorry for ruining your life for not doing what YOU or someone else thinks is better for them.

REgards
TRB

  

Quoting Max Q (Reply 76):
Unbelievable, I think the only way some of the posters could be happy is if they stayed home with all the curtains closed
in a dark room with endless access to video games !

   And those who disagree with them and choose to enjoy the beauty of our planet from the ultimate vantage point will be labeled inconsiderate, selfish, etc...

IMHO the electronic window shades will make flying a lot less enjoyable for me and millions of flying enthusiasts who think the world looks better from FL350!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-08-20 13:48:24 and read 15283 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 92):
I'm pretty sure it'll not be as reliable and easy to fix.

Incorrect. In both cases, the only threat to the system is passenger abuse. If a passenger abuses a shade, the whole shade has to be replaced, not a particularly fun operation. If a passenger abuses a dimmer switch, the switch has to be replaced -- pop-in, pop-out.

The system behind the switch is reliable enough that repairs on it will be a very rare occurrence.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: ECAMActions
Posted 2013-08-20 13:51:26 and read 15282 times.

what will happen in 20 years when airlines are back in the red and these 787 get older and these window things start to break? It will be much more expensive that they typical 10 cent plastic one now.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-20 14:41:51 and read 15205 times.

Yes I think these windows are going to be a real problem for Boeing, and for the life of the Aircraft. A prime example of technology for technology's sake.


A simple window shade just can't be beat (whether you like it open or closed)


Is Airbus offering these gimmicky windows on the A350 ?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-20 14:46:41 and read 15178 times.

Quoting ECAMActions (Reply 94):
what will happen in 20 years when airlines are back in the red and these 787 get older and these window things start to break? It will be much more expensive that they typical 10 cent plastic one now.

Plastics and adhesives will advance a great deal in 20 years. Advanced light weight curtain hardware along with some drapes will do the trick.

Based on what I read, technology behind these windows seem to simple, it uses electricity only when you change the shade and retains same level of darkness indefinitely. As we know anything electrical is a fire risk on a B787.

Without this thread I wouldn't imagined so many people love to watch clouds so much.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-08-20 15:15:00 and read 15163 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 96):
Without this thread I wouldn't imagined so many people love to watch clouds so much.

   These have to be people who haven't flown true long haul... where you're over water the majority of the time and/or over barren land. During my last trip which was long haul, there weren't many opportunities to see any of these majestic, eight wonders of the world, so many others who have this urgent need to be able to look out the windows are describing. I thought I'd be looking out the window non-stop, but I found a couple of minutes here and there, and I was done. Some of these people act like they will have a stroke if they can't stare mindlessly out an aircraft window for hours on end.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: airnorth
Posted 2013-08-20 15:51:29 and read 15106 times.

Somewhere in the depths of the many 787 threads, the debate between the maintenance costs of the mechanical vs the electronic shades were discussed. It seems to me that the consensus was the mechanical shade system was more work to repair and prone to break down than the electronic shades. When the mechanical shades fail, it means taking out interior panels, and perhapd seats or other equipment depending on the type of aircraft. Whereas the dimmable window pane is located just behind the first interior window pane, and is easily changed out.
I could be wrong, but if there are any maintenance folks that could chime in on this, that would be great!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-08-20 15:59:14 and read 15081 times.

Quoting airnorth (Reply 98):

Somewhere in the depths of the many 787 threads, the debate between the maintenance costs of the mechanical vs the electronic shades were discussed. It seems to me that the consensus was the mechanical shade system was more work to repair and prone to break down than the electronic shades. When the mechanical shades fail, it means taking out interior panels, and perhapd seats or other equipment depending on the type of aircraft. Whereas the dimmable window pane is located just behind the first interior window pane, and is easily changed out.
I could be wrong, but if there are any maintenance folks that could chime in on this, that would be great!

I also recall and earlier thread where there was in-debt discussion about weight savings from dimmable windows, and I think there was lots of evidence given showing there was a significant weight savings using this system, versus the traditional window shades. However, I can't recall if any of the evidence was actual information releases from Boeing, showing there was a weight savings benefit.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: angmoh
Posted 2013-08-20 16:39:16 and read 15047 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 97):
 These have to be people who haven't flown true long haul... where you're over water the majority of the time and/or over barren land...... I thought I'd be looking out the window non-stop, but I found a couple of minutes here and there, and I was done. Some of these people act like they will have a stroke if they can't stare mindlessly out an aircraft window for hours on end.

  

I can only remember 2 places where I looked out of a window on a long haul flight for an extended period of time:
1) Flying SIN-FRA during the day flight (depart 2 PM, arrive 8 PM) when flying parallel past the Caucasus mountain range.
2) Flying IAH-DME when flying over Greenland with beautiful weather. The contrast between black rock and white ice as well as floating ice in the sea was fantastic.
And this is in 25 years long haul flying. For the rest it is mainly quick glimpses (Ayers Rock, seeing London Eye while flying EWR-SIN), but these happen once every few years and most of the time it is trying to sleep or watch a movie with dumb mindless violence which does not require any brain activity.

Now if we can keep the cabin dark so everyone can sleep or watch a movie, then I am happy. And by the way, give me an aisle seat so I can go to the toilet whenever I need....

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-20 19:07:31 and read 14949 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 93):
Incorrect. In both cases, the only threat to the system is passenger abuse. If a passenger abuses a shade, the whole shade has to be replaced, not a particularly fun operation. If a passenger abuses a dimmer switch, the switch has to be replaced -- pop-in, pop-out.

I've been on dozens of planes and I don't recall seeing a single window shade broken. They're extremely reliable and very hard to break.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 95):
Yes I think these windows are going to be a real problem for Boeing, and for the life of the Aircraft. A prime example of technology for technology's sake.


A simple window shade just can't be beat (whether you like it open or closed)


   Exactly.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 95):
Is Airbus offering these gimmicky windows on the A350 ?

Airbus is doing the right thing by making them optional on the A350, I hope most airlines will be smart enough to choose the shades.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 96):
Based on what I read, technology behind these windows seem to simple, it uses electricity only when you change the shade and retains same level of darkness indefinitely. As we know anything electrical is a fire risk on a B787.

Anything electrical is a fire risk on any aircraft!

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 96):
Without this thread I wouldn't imagined so many people love to watch clouds so much.

How many times do I have to repeat that there's much more than just clouds and blinding sunlight to see out the window?!!

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 97):
These have to be people who haven't flown true long haul... where you're over water the majority of the time and/or over barren land. During my last trip which was long haul, there weren't many opportunities to see any of these majestic, eight wonders of the world, so many others who have this urgent need to be able to look out the windows are describing. I thought I'd be looking out the window non-stop, but I found a couple of minutes here and there, and I was done. Some of these people act like they will have a stroke if they can't stare mindlessly out an aircraft window for hours on end.

Last time I checked LAX-Australia & Europe were long haul flights!   

Quoting airnorth (Reply 98):
Somewhere in the depths of the many 787 threads, the debate between the maintenance costs of the mechanical vs the electronic shades were discussed. It seems to me that the consensus was the mechanical shade system was more work to repair and prone to break down than the electronic shades. When the mechanical shades fail, it means taking out interior panels, and perhapd seats or other equipment depending on the type of aircraft. Whereas the dimmable window pane is located just behind the first interior window pane, and is easily changed out.
I could be wrong, but if there are any maintenance folks that could chime in on this, that would be great!

I'm sure some parts of the electronic tinting system are just as hard if not harder to replace or repair.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 99):
I also recall and earlier thread where there was in-debt discussion about weight savings from dimmable windows, and I think there was lots of evidence given showing there was a significant weight savings using this system, versus the traditional window shades. However, I can't recall if any of the evidence was actual information releases from Boeing, showing there was a weight savings benefit.

The plastic shades are not that heavy and the electronic tinting system is not exactly weightless!

Quoting angmoh (Reply 100):
I can only remember 2 places where I looked out of a window on a long haul flight for an extended period of time:
1) Flying SIN-FRA during the day flight (depart 2 PM, arrive 8 PM) when flying parallel past the Caucasus mountain range.
2) Flying IAH-DME when flying over Greenland with beautiful weather. The contrast between black rock and white ice as well as floating ice in the sea was fantastic.
And this is in 25 years long haul flying. For the rest it is mainly quick glimpses (Ayers Rock, seeing London Eye while flying EWR-SIN), but these happen once every few years and most of the time it is trying to sleep or watch a movie with dumb mindless violence which does not require any brain activity.

Now if we can keep the cabin dark so everyone can sleep or watch a movie, then I am happy. And by the way, give me an aisle seat so I can go to the toilet whenever I need....

You look more like an aisle seat passenger than a window seat passenger to me, that explains the 2 times in 25 years!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-20 22:10:27 and read 14896 times.

Maybe Boeing and Airbus could build the perfect Aircraft for the dark lovers with no windows at all.


Oh wait, they do already, they're called Freighters !

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-08-20 22:55:44 and read 14841 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 85):
This was the plane's 3rd ever flight last week, so that is the newest 787 for UA, and would have the latest windows. If it was ever more transparent than that, I would not like to have flown on the earliest planes.

I have no idea what level of darkness UA has specified for thier fleet. Clearly the end customer can choose the max level of tint.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 101):
Anything electrical is a fire risk on any aircraft!

No, no it is not. The voltage and current used in the window system is so low its equal in chance to catch fire with the windowshades. In other words, something ELSE has to go wrong for it to be on fire.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 101):
I'm sure some parts of the electronic tinting system are just as hard if not harder to replace or repair

Not really, the only moving parts are the switch. Where as the shade is a rather cheap and nasty bit of engineering ment to provide window covering at the lowest cost and wieght possible. Failure of the thin material and the simple slide is almost certain to happen relatively frequently. Worst part is that its directly accessable to the passenger. A shade located on the otherside of the inner window would be far superior for reliablity, but not worth the cost, wieght, and extra MX. The dimming window gives all the advantages of that, but with no moving parts in the "shade" to break.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 101):
The plastic shades are not that heavy and the electronic tinting system is not exactly weightless

Its not wieght, its COST they are removing. Boeing saved big $$$ with the simpler design of the interior panels. Airlines pay a bit more up front, but they pay less over the lifetime of the airframe. Certainly no mechanics needed to try and repair busted shades in the middle of a turn.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: airnorth
Posted 2013-08-20 23:22:04 and read 14828 times.

The dimming windows have been discussed before, unfortunately Tdscanuck, CM, and a few others with extensive knowledge of the 787 have left the group after all of the childlike responses in the battery grounding threads, but they really had a lot of great insight.
I just re-read a couple of the older threads, and most of the questions have been asked and answered before. But thankfully, there are plenty of differing opinions to keep these threads going!

Video Of The New Boeing 787 Window Shades (by GetYourFlyx Jun 24 2009 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4460423&searchid=4462964&s=shades+787#menu52

Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window (by duncan16 Sep 16 2012 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5565325&searchid=5567821&s=window+shade#menu27

hopefully these links work.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-08-21 04:46:38 and read 14702 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 101):
I've been on dozens of planes and I don't recall seeing a single window shade broken. They're extremely reliable and very hard to break.

You have never been on a BA 747 then! Lol

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-08-21 04:57:57 and read 14676 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 103):
No, no it is not. The voltage and current used in the window system is so low its equal in chance to catch fire with the windowshades. In other words, something ELSE has to go wrong for it to be on fire.

The battery on the LTE is not even rechargeable, and has no feeding from the 787 main power, and even like that we had an "incident". So I think that electrical window shades have a one in a hundred million chance of short circuit, the current manual (prehistoric) have NONE.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 103):
Failure of the thin material and the simple slide is almost certain to happen relatively frequently.

Havent seen one broken EVER, then again I always have it up so I would not notice. (just kidding when on a long haul flight I close it when they ask us to do it, but yes Ill use my jacket as a shield to peer out every now and then.)

Quoting tonystan (Reply 105):
You have never been on a BA 747 then! Lol

Oops! I stand corrected...

One question : those electric shades are conected to the main power on the 787 and what voltage do they use or they have batteries installed?

TRB

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-21 05:23:30 and read 14629 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 101):
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 96):
Without this thread I wouldn't imagined so many people love to watch clouds so much.

How many times do I have to repeat that there's much more than just clouds and blinding sunlight to see out the window?!!

I am not complaining about passengers keep their shades open. I always thought it was odd. Now I can appreciate their point of view.

There are other passengers who keep personal light on all the time, book with a marker sitting on tray.

I travel long haul with eye mask, noise cancelling headsets/ear plugs. I sleep most of the duration of the flight. Not an issue for me.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2013-08-21 06:44:18 and read 14569 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 101):
I've been on dozens of planes and I don't recall seeing a single window shade broken. They're extremely reliable and very hard to break.

They can......wrinkled,crumbled and broken handle....

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-08-21 09:09:30 and read 14492 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 106):
The battery on the LTE is not even rechargeable, and has no feeding from the 787 main power, and even like that we had an "incident"

are you trolling? The LTE has stored energy. The window system does not. You apply power it changes from its default state, you remove the power and it returns to the default state. Thats it. Its not storing energy.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-08-21 09:35:25 and read 14433 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 109):
You apply power it changes from its default state, you remove the power and it returns to the default state.

I read slightly different version. You apply power to change the state and it retains same state(without power) until you change the state again by applying power. B787 may be different.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-08-21 10:39:18 and read 14348 times.

Quoting klmd11l (Reply 35):
It's not always "that guy" to blame, some airlines try to keep pax asleep for as long as possible to minimize their demands and cut costs.

And you know this fact how? I have worked for an airline for 30+ years and have never heard of such a policy.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: klmd11l
Posted 2013-08-21 14:18:41 and read 14234 times.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 59):
I do sneak an occasional peak out from time to time, using the pillow or blanket as a partial shade!
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 106):
but yes Ill use my jacket as a shield to peer out every now and then.

You guys remind me of my first and only flight over the Himalayas (FRA-BKK with TG), while enjoying a spectacular view the F/A asked me to close my window, I did, but the view was so irresistible I decided to improvise and use a blanket around the window frame to block the light, however, the F/A came again and asked me to close my window, despite my makeshift blanket-shade blocking almost all the light!   

Quoting mcdu (Reply 111):
And you know this fact how? I have worked for an airline for 30+ years and have never heard of such a policy.

I didn't say it's a written policy, but I do think that's the reason why SOME airlines darken the cabin to keep most pax asleep, especially during westbound daytime flights.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-22 13:16:39 and read 14000 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 102):
Maybe Boeing and Airbus could build the perfect Aircraft for the dark lovers with no windows at all.


Oh wait, they do already, they're called Freighters !

Here's the perfect aircraft for the darkness lovers!   ...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Zhang

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 103):
No, no it is not. The voltage and current used in the window system is so low its equal in chance to catch fire with the windowshades.

It may be very safe and unlikely to cause a fire but you can't compare it to the 100% mechanical shades. it's impossible for the shades to cause fire, the same can't be said about any electrical system including the electronic tint.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 103):
Failure of the thin material and the simple slide is almost certain to happen relatively frequently.

Relatively frequently?! Maybe on the older birds our grandparents used to fly on, modern airliners' shades are much sturdier than older aircrafts.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 103):
Certainly no mechanics needed to try and repair busted shades in the middle of a turn.

An electrician will be needed to repair them!  
.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 105):
You have never been on a BA 747 then! Lol

Actually I haven't, but I'm sure they take good care of their aircrafts.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-22 14:54:49 and read 13895 times.

Quoting klmd11l (Reply 112):

You guys remind me of my first and only flight over the Himalayas (FRA-BKK with TG), while enjoying a spectacular view the F/A asked me to close my window, I did, but the view was so irresistible I decided to improvise and use a blanket around the window frame to block the light, however, the F/A came again and asked me to close my window, despite my makeshift blanket-shade blocking almost all the light!

I would have just told her no, it's staying open, if it was take off or landing that would be different, but no, not going to have a Flight Attendant tell me I can't look out of the window !

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-08-22 15:47:04 and read 13837 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 114):
I would have just told her no, it's staying open, if it was take off or landing that would be different, but no, not going to have a Flight Attendant tell me I can't look out of the window !

And when the aircraft has to make an unscheduled diversion due to the threat of an unstable, insubordinate passenger who appears to be a security risk by not complying with the FAs ... and then your subsequent arrest and detainment by local authorities, what would have been your next genius plan of action???

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-08-22 17:12:02 and read 13787 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 113):
Actually I haven't, but I'm sure they take good care of their aircrafts.

Broken blinds all over the place I'm afraid!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Geo772
Posted 2013-08-22 23:36:52 and read 13699 times.

Having flown on the 787 I personally think the window dimming is fantastic, possibly one of the best features of the aircraft. There are 5 levels of tint from clear to very dark. The first tint away from clear removes almost all glare an allows you to look outside in direct sunlight quite easily. Going to full dark and while you can still see out it is very dark, a bit like looking through welders glasses. When the whole cabin is darkened like this it is dark enough to sleep easily while at the same time still possible for those in window seats to watch the world go by.
Of all the technology in the aircraft this feature is the one I'd like to see moved to other types, along with the size of the window of course.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-23 00:40:11 and read 13655 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 115):


And when the aircraft has to make an unscheduled diversion due to the threat of an unstable, insubordinate passenger who appears to be a security risk by not complying with the FAs ... and then your subsequent arrest and detainment by local authorities, what would have been your next genius plan of action???

I can tell you this, wadrs if you think that would happen because of a window shade you may have lost touch with reality.


I have had a flight attendant ask me to lower the window shade and I politely told her no, i'd prefer to keep it open, that was the end of it.


Pretty amazing you would consider someone 'unstable' because they want to look out of the window..

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-23 13:12:21 and read 13469 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 115):
And when the aircraft has to make an unscheduled diversion due to the threat of an unstable, insubordinate passenger who appears to be a security risk by not complying with the FAs ... and then your subsequent arrest and detainment by local authorities, what would have been your next genius plan of action???

  You do know that diverting a large airliner costs thousands of dollars, right?! Not to mention inconveniencing hundreds of passengers and possibly disrupting the airline's flight schedule. The idea of an airline diverting a flight just because one passenger refusing to close his window shade is completely absurd.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 116):
Broken blinds all over the place I'm afraid!

That's not what I heard from friends and acquaintances who flew BA.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 117):
The first tint away from clear removes almost all glare an allows you to look outside in direct sunlight quite easily.

Okay, I admit that's a good thing. What's not so good is the fact that it takes control out of passengers' hands and allows the cabin crew to dim all the windows however they like and that's just wrong imo.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 117):
Of all the technology in the aircraft this feature is the one I'd like to see moved to other types, along with the size of the window of course.

   The size of the windows? Absolutely. Electronic tinting? a big fat no.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: sassiciai
Posted 2013-08-23 13:58:13 and read 13403 times.

This is one of the most brilliant threads ever on a.net! Initially, I ignored it, then I tapped in to see! OMG!

All other threads elicit a preference from the poster (I love long-haul, short-haul, Airline X, Airport Y, transit Z, interlining here, FF system there)

In this one, none of all that normal stuff applies, so while it is quite stupid and silly, it is also great! Long live threads about how we passengers are treated while we travel! Window shades open, noisy babies, no booze, no IFE!

What does all this tell us about our selves?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-08-23 15:30:14 and read 13336 times.

[quote=L0VE2FLY,reply=119]That's not what I heard from friends and acquaintances who flew BA.[/quote

Take it from an insider!!!!!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-08-23 15:37:14 and read 13327 times.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 120):
What does all this tell us about our selves?

That the travelling public is capable of being pretty down right vile to one another! No respect, no consideration and a bowlful of "Me, Me, Me"!!!!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: CO777DAL
Posted 2013-08-23 16:55:58 and read 13306 times.

I have video of UA 787 electronic shades and going to full dim in the sun. You can still see out even on darkest setting. But when you look across the cabin you can not see out of the other side when they have the darkest setting. Also UA window button controls two windows.

United Airlines Boeing 787-8 Operating New Electromagnetic Windows Shades (s Continental)
http://youtu.be/Vmksvx4ja8A

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: BA677
Posted 2013-08-24 04:13:38 and read 13110 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 81):
In response to feedback, the later 787s have a darker max tint than the early planes delivered to the japanese airlines.



So on the later 787s, it would be good to know if you can still see outside on the darkest tint.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 123):
I have video of UA 787 electronic shades and going to full dim in the sun. You can still see out even on darkest setting. But when you look across the cabin you can not see out of the other side when they have the darkest setting. Also UA window button controls two windows.

United Airlines Boeing 787-8 Operating New Electromagnetic Windows Shades (s Continental)
http://youtu.be/Vmksvx4ja8A

I think this is the older version.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 118):
I can tell you this, wadrs if you think that would happen because of a window shade you may have lost touch with reality.


I have had a flight attendant ask me to lower the window shade and I politely told her no, i'd prefer to keep it open, that was the end of it.


Pretty amazing you would consider someone 'unstable' because they want to look out of the window..


  

Quoting Max Q (Reply 114):
I would have just told her no, it's staying open, if it was take off or landing that would be different, but no, not going to have a Flight Attendant tell me I can't look out of the window !

  

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2013-08-24 05:00:20 and read 13064 times.

As someone who loves to look out the window, I think the 787's dimmable windows are a fantastic innovation. I only wish that it could've been invented much sooner. What I value most is the ability to look out the window, and if I can still see out the window when the 787's windows are at its darkest, then that is a good thing.

To those who say that the 787's windows aren't dark enough, get over it. This is the compromise that we need, between those who prefer to look out the window getting a view that's dimmer than is ideal and those who prefer to sleep getting a cabin ever so slightly brighter than is ideal. Sounds like the perfect solution to me.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 122):
That the travelling public is capable of being pretty down right vile to one another! No respect, no consideration and a bowlful of "Me, Me, Me"!!!!

It goes both ways, you know. There are those that will insist on having window shades closed because his highness needs to sleep ...  

Sometimes I wish opaque window shades were never invented.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: klmd11l
Posted 2013-08-27 12:15:49 and read 12606 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 114):
I would have just told her no, it's staying open, if it was take off or landing that would be different, but no, not going to have a Flight Attendant tell me I can't look out of the window !

I didn't want to make a scene, I just waited for a few minutes then half-opened my window and continued to look out with the help of my blanket-shade.  .

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 115):
And when the aircraft has to make an unscheduled diversion due to the threat of an unstable, insubordinate passenger who appears to be a security risk by not complying with the FAs ... and then your subsequent arrest and detainment by local authorities, what would have been your next genius plan of action???

If every aircraft was diverted because a passenger insisted on keeping his window open there would be hundreds if not thousands of diversions around the world every day!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-28 13:15:42 and read 12287 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 122):
That the travelling public is capable of being pretty down right vile to one another! No respect, no consideration and a bowlful of "Me, Me, Me"!!!!

People have different preferences and it's impossible to please everyone, that's why I thought BA677's idea is great...

Quoting BA677 (Reply 48):
Just an idea, why don't they have a dark zone on the plane over the wing for example where you cant see that much any way. So if you plan to sleep then put the effort in to get a seat in that zone, just like I put the effort in to getting a window seat every time. And if you don't manage to get the dark zone then bad look, just as for me when I don't get my window seat.

This way everyone will be happy, plus airlines that charge for seat assignment can also charge the darkness lovers and make more money.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 123):
I have video of UA 787 electronic shades and going to full dim in the sun. You can still see out even on darkest setting. But when you look across the cabin you can not see out of the other side when they have the darkest setting. Also UA window button controls two windows.

United Airlines Boeing 787-8 Operating New Electromagnetic Windows Shades (s Continental)
http://youtu.be/Vmksvx4ja8A

That's not good for those nervous flyers who keep their shades down the entire flight, you can see very clearly even at the darkest setting, I thought it was much darker than that.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 125):
As someone who loves to look out the window, I think the 787's dimmable windows are a fantastic innovation. I only wish that it could've been invented much sooner. What I value most is the ability to look out the window, and if I can still see out the window when the 787's windows are at its darkest, then that is a good thing.

To those who say that the 787's windows aren't dark enough, get over it. This is the compromise that we need, between those who prefer to look out the window getting a view that's dimmer than is ideal and those who prefer to sleep getting a cabin ever so slightly brighter than is ideal. Sounds like the perfect solution to me.

It may be the perfect solution to you and many others, but not to me, I like to see things in their natural colors, even on the ground I very rarely wear sunglasses and I'm not a big fan of tinted car windows, also I like to be the only one in control of my window and that's not possible with the electronic tint.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: lhrnue
Posted 2013-08-28 13:27:26 and read 12272 times.

Why are all windows on the first 787-9 sealed. Best visible in the movie on Randy's blog.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-08-28 14:29:46 and read 12185 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 113):
Relatively frequently?! Maybe on the older birds our grandparents used to fly on, modern airliners' shades are much sturdier than older aircrafts.

That isn't true, the mechanical window shades are probably the one of the items that break down and repair the most frequently in the cabin. They are often fixed during long turn arounds if it's something minor. The window shades are wonderful with regards to maintenance in that they are far less likely to break down due to less mechanical parts etc.

As a pax, I love looking out the window and love the flexibility to do so without letting too much light in to disturb other passengers trying to sleep.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-08-31 11:26:56 and read 11695 times.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 129):
That isn't true, the mechanical window shades are probably the one of the items that break down and repair the most frequently in the cabin. They are often fixed during long turn arounds if it's something minor. The window shades are wonderful with regards to maintenance in that they are far less likely to break down due to less mechanical parts etc.

The mechanical shades have been around for decades and proven themselves, the electronic shades will start to fail just as often as if not more frequently than the mechanical shades as the planes age.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-08-31 16:00:50 and read 11543 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 130):
The mechanical shades have been around for decades and proven themselves, the electronic shades will start to fail just as often as if not more frequently than the mechanical shades as the planes age.

They've been around for decades changes what exactly? They are still mechanical and very susceptible to failure and frequent maintenance. The airlines don't seem to have anywhere near half as much issues with the electronic dimmers vs traditional shades, well @ least from what I can see.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: a36001
Posted 2013-08-31 17:04:40 and read 11493 times.

The traditional window shades have often really annoyed me because as a plane freak, there is nothing I enjoy more than simply staring at the wing in amazement, and having to have a sheet of plastic block my view the entire flight because of guilt in blinding the other passengers around me.

So to the guy who designed this thank you!!!  

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-08-31 22:18:13 and read 11366 times.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 131):

They've been around for decades changes what exactly? They are still mechanical and very susceptible to failure and frequent maintenance. The airlines don't seem to have anywhere near half as much issues with the electronic dimmers vs traditional shades, well @ least from what I can see.

They slide up, they slide down, pretty simple, no electricity required and they totally block out the sun when you want them to.


A better mousetrap was not required..

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-08-31 22:48:26 and read 11334 times.

Get used to it, Airbus will get it too, I think its a good thing if people can sleep and others still being able to check out the view from above, maybe the darkest setting could be a little darker I don´t know. A good compromise IMO and A+B will pick this up and both will go with this tech.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2013-09-01 04:12:09 and read 11235 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 127):
It may be the perfect solution to you and many others, but not to me, I like to see things in their natural colors, even on the ground I very rarely wear sunglasses and I'm not a big fan of tinted car windows, also I like to be the only one in control of my window and that's not possible with the electronic tint.

I prefer to see through tinted glass than not see anything at all through an opaque plastic window shade.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 130):
the electronic shades will start to fail just as often as if not more frequently than the mechanical shades as the planes age.

Do you have any proof of that?

Quoting a36001 (Reply 132):
The traditional window shades have often really annoyed me because as a plane freak, there is nothing I enjoy more than simply staring at the wing in amazement, and having to have a sheet of plastic block my view the entire flight because of guilt in blinding the other passengers around me.

So to the guy who designed this thank you!!!

  

It's long overdue!

Quoting sweair (Reply 134):
Get used to it, Airbus will get it too

Actually, the A350 will only offer dimmable windows as an option; conventional shades are standard.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-09-01 06:05:30 and read 11146 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 133):
They slide up, they slide down, pretty simple, no electricity required and they totally block out the sun when you want them to.A better mousetrap was not required..

They break, they crack, the come out of their tracks - and repairing them often means removing an entire side panel...

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-09-01 11:11:25 and read 10949 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 133):
They slide up, they slide down, pretty simple, no electricity required and they totally block out the sun when you want them to.
Quoting alfa164 (Reply 136):
They break, they crack, the come out of their tracks - and repairing them often means removing an entire side panel...

Couldn't have said it better. It is precisely because of their mechanical nature that they are very susceptible to damage and require fixing often. Add that pax move them up and down with varying degrees of force and possibly at slight angles, then you may see why they do need fixing often...vs pressing a button to tint and untint.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DarkSnowyNight
Posted 2013-09-01 18:46:29 and read 10755 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 101):

I've been on dozens of planes and I don't recall seeing a single window shade broken.

That's be because over at Engineering, we do an awesome job at fixing those up before you get on board, 
Quoting tonystan (Reply 105):
You have never been on a BA 747 then! Lol

Oddly enough, that is precisely the example I had in mind when folks started saying how reliable the old ones supposedly are! I will never, ever forget the time G-CIVT came into our station with not one, but 13, yes goddam 13 window blinds written up. It was memorable because it was about twice the average.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 125):
I wish opaque window shades were never invented.

Used to feel that way about an hour after our BA 744s arrived. Same again with PR, KL & a few of our other contracts here. Just par for the course, and not unique to 744s either.

For those of us that don't work turns or transits for a living, window shades are tied with armrests for coming in second after IFE as the most frequently written up cabin discrepancies.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 136):
They break, they crack, the come out of their tracks - and repairing them often means removing an entire side panel...

I'm not going to get into the debate about which side is right WRT whether it's ok too keep windows open (because we all know which is correct anyway,   ), but from a practical aside, dimmable is hands down better.

It does just about always require a wall panel being pulled back, unless one can re-track it with a screwdriver (though this is not supported by any AMM that I know of), and unless you can remove the wall panel all the way (hint: not possible during a turn, since you'd be removing seats at that point), just pulling the wall panel back will likely result in the new blind being hung slightly asymmetrically, since you already have the panel crooked and the far side of the shade is pretty tough to reach with human fingers. At that point, it's still a good fix, but it isn't perfect and probably will need to be re-hung at some point in the future.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 115):
And when the aircraft has to make an unscheduled diversion due to the threat of an unstable, insubordinate passenger who appears to be a security risk by not complying with the FAs ... and then your subsequent arrest and detainment by local authorities, what would have been your next genius plan of action???

Thanks for belly laugh.

Aside from knowing more than a few folks who work there, I fly EK pretty regularly along the LAX-DXB routing and I can assure that almost everything you've posted is either an exaggeration, or some weird one-off occurrence. No EK FA is ever going to call for a diversion over this. You may not be very familiar with EK (and that's perfectly fine), but they're not too forgiving (for better or worse) of FA's calling for diversions over what falls outside of their narrow definition of emergency.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-09-01 22:22:55 and read 10594 times.

Hello, I know it is off track to ask it here, but I will be on a B787 Norwegian Air Shuttle Bangkok - Oslo, I would just like to ascertain I did not choose a window seat without one - I do not want to be seated beside a blank panel. Would anyone know here which specific row and seat on the B787 of Norwegian is without a window so I can avoid it. Thanks

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-09-01 23:03:41 and read 10567 times.

check http://www.seatguru.com/ If they don't have the exact layout, you can get an idea since the blank panels should be the same across most 787.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: yeelep
Posted 2013-09-02 03:41:56 and read 10417 times.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 136):
They break, they crack, the come out of their tracks - and repairing them often means removing an entire side panel...

They rarely break, they do crack-takes all of three minutes to change, they come out of the tracks rarely. Never had to remove a sidewall panel to fix a shade. Thank goodness I work on the 737.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-09-02 04:38:43 and read 10321 times.

XT6Wagon - I did check on seatguru prior to posting on here, there was no remark of any sort, not even on the comments re which seat number at the rear section is without a window.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-02 06:33:57 and read 10222 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 25):
After reading this topic, I will probably avoid the 787 for trans-Atlantic East bound flights, especially during the summer. A darker cabin helps you get an extra hour or so of sleep before landing.

As far as I'm concerned this window is a gimmick and a FAIL at that!

And you have come to this conclusion without ever having been on the airplane???

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 55):
I want to know what is so mythical and fascinating about endless clouds and sunlight

Try asking the guys upfront. Many of them have said one of the best parts of the job is the view.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 59):
Twenty minutes out, aircraft starts its descent, and all window shades MUST be up

That would depend on the airline. It seems fewer and fewer enforce/require the shades to be up. Personally, and as a first-responder, they should ALWAYS be open for takeoff and landing. As a passenger, if things go wrong I want to be able to see what's outside before I exit. As a first responder, I want to be able to see INSIDE.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 84):
You can see out and not disturb everyone else as much as before. Win-win for everyone.

Correct, and that's the whole point!!! Somehow this thread has degenerated into an all or none discussion. For the few who find the darkest tint too light to sleep, then use eyeshades. Having personally flown the 787 several times, I love the windows.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-09-02 06:49:39 and read 10197 times.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 143):
As a first responder, I want to be able to see INSIDE.

Do we know if eTint windows are on darkest setting during a crash, can firefighters see inside? Even with loss of power eTint is designed to retain the latest setting. One can assume in a emergency crew may reset all windows to lightest setting, but what is they forget to reset.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-02 07:05:21 and read 10170 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 144):
Do we know if eTint windows are on darkest setting during a crash, can firefighters see inside? Even with loss of power eTint is designed to retain the latest setting. One can assume in a emergency crew may reset all windows to lightest setting, but what is they forget to reset.

I don't know about that, but was wondering the same thing. I know that in the case of tinted automobile windows it's easy to see out, but pretty difficult to see in from the outside.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Kengo
Posted 2013-09-02 16:23:04 and read 9956 times.

Having flown several 787 domestic flights in Japan, I enjoyed the dimmable window. At mid-setting, I could work on my PC without the sun glare whitening out the screen. Another thing I noticed about the shadeless dimmable window is that there is less rattling sound during all phases of the flight.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-09-02 16:40:25 and read 9928 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 144):

To the best of my knowledge following my conversion course once power is cut to the windows they become clear again. However this can take up to 90 seconds!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: CO777DAL
Posted 2013-09-02 16:53:32 and read 9910 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 142):

XT6Wagon - I did check on seatguru prior to posting on here, there was no remark of any sort, not even on the comments re which seat number at the rear section is without a window.

There is a area in the back of 787 where two part was joined together, it is row 36 on United that doesn't have a window. So look at there map and try to avoid that area on your plane.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: airnorth
Posted 2013-09-02 16:58:41 and read 9889 times.

Seat guru shows row 5 Premium Economy as having no window, that is the only reference I could see.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Nor...egian_Air_Shuttle_Boeing_787-8.php

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tjh8402
Posted 2013-09-02 19:15:18 and read 9780 times.

sorry if this has been mentioned already...I was just speed reading a lot of the above posts. When I flew on UA's 787, one of the flight attendants told me that they have ultimate control of the windows, so if they want to make the cabin night time, they can override any one passenger that is trying to lighten his window - its a part of the whole cabin environment management that is tied in with the day/night cabin lighting. I found them to be very effective on my flight at keeping the cabin dark in the day time.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: christao17
Posted 2013-09-02 20:13:12 and read 9751 times.

Just flew NH's 787 from SJC to NRT a few weeks ago. Sat on the south-facing side of a flight that is entirely in daylight.

Complaints about the excessive heat were overblown. I could put my hand on the window and while it was warm, it was no warmer than I've felt the old pull-down window shades being.

Complaints about lack of cabin darkness were also overblown. Mid-flight, almost all the windows were set to the darkest setting and the cabin was quite dark. Something about the windows seems to make them appear completely opaque when viewed from an angle, although when viewed straight-on you can still see through them like very dark sunglasses.

I like the technology because it doesn't result in an "all or nothing" approach to the windows. You can have your darkness and look out, too.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-09-03 07:02:36 and read 9581 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 147):
once power is cut to the windows they become clear again

It is still not clear. If your statement is true, interior will be cooked of a 787 sitting in a hot sun without power.

Here is an excerpt from wiki on Smart Glass -> Electrochromic Devices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_glass#Electrochromic_devices

"... once the change has been effected, no electricity is needed for maintaining the particular shade which has been reached."

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-09-03 07:12:31 and read 9561 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 152):

I believe it's a fail safe built into the B787. If power is cut it returns to the full "bright", "open" or whatever you want to call it position!

Just checked my manuals and that's what it says.

FYI, the cabin is going to cook one way or the other! Ever been on a plane on a sunny day with no AC even in the middle of winter? Lol

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-09-03 09:06:32 and read 9457 times.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 19):

That's something I never understood. Why on earth would anybody book a window seat if they are afraid to look outside the window? Same goes for people who book a window seat and then never look outside but spend the whole flight playing with their ipad. It doesn't begin to make sense. If you don't like the window, the window seat is the worst seat possible on a plane.
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 21):
Many people like the window seat as it's more private for sleeping, you can lean on the wall and not be disturbed by people getting up to go to the bathroom.

That is why I like the window. Not for the view but for the little extra privacy for sleeping and not being disturbed by the drunken person who is stumbling, trying to make it to the washroom in time. Most people like the window seat as that is the seat that fills up the quickest if you were to look at a seating chart for a flight. My feeling on the 787 window shade is that if it is dark out and you wish to sleep you should not have a problem.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: yeogeo
Posted 2013-09-03 09:12:41 and read 9455 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 154):
Most people like the window seat as that is the seat that fills up the quickest if you were to look at a seating chart for a flight.

  
In my experience, the aisle seats are more in demand .
yeo

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: sassiciai
Posted 2013-09-03 09:46:45 and read 9396 times.

Aisle seat "D" for me for nighttime flight, window "A" for daytime! (or equivalent on the other side)

I like the freedom of the aisle seat in the middle seat bank during a long night, to get up unhindered just for a walk, grab a drink, or go to the loo without bothering anyone. Also, if the window area is 3 seats, at my "D" seat, there is only the one "E" passenger who might need to disturb me

During the day, I want the "A" seat, and I want to look out - all the time! As far as flying is concerned, I'm still a little boy fascinated by all that you can see from an aircraft! I've been like that for a loooong time! I once flew from BRU to Zurich in a Swiss "Jumbolina" (Bae146) and sat without a window. Thank God it was only an hour or so! To board a B787 and find that I'm at a seat without a window - for the next 14 hours - OMG! Dont think I can do that!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-09-03 11:12:29 and read 9311 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 152):
It is still not clear. If your statement is true, interior will be cooked of a 787 sitting in a hot sun without power.

Here is an excerpt from wiki on Smart Glass -> Electrochromic Devices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_glass#Electrochromic_devices

"... once the change has been effected, no electricity is needed for maintaining the particular shade which has been reached."

Nope, This returns to default state when power is lost. It defaults to clear for safety reasons. If you used it on a car or a building you could make it default to tinted.

BTW, there is multiple types of changing the opacity of glass, so its best to look up the exact method used than assume its the same as another.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-09-03 14:15:32 and read 9188 times.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 131):
They've been around for decades changes what exactly? They are still mechanical and very susceptible to failure and frequent maintenance.

So according to you the jet engines of the 1950s are just the same as the 21st. century engines?!   Any product is refined over time no matter how simple or complicated it is.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 131):
The airlines don't seem to have anywhere near half as much issues with the electronic dimmers vs traditional shades, well @ least from what I can see.

Because unlike the plastic shades, the electronic dimmers are used only on a handful of new planes, just wait for them to get a little old.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 133):
They slide up, they slide down, pretty simple, no electricity required and they totally block out the sun when you want them to.


A better mousetrap was not required..

  

Quoting sweair (Reply 134):
Get used to it, Airbus will get it too, I think its a good thing if people can sleep and others still being able to check out the view from above, maybe the darkest setting could be a little darker I don´t know. A good compromise IMO and A+B will pick this up and both will go with this tech.

It's a good compromise until the cabin crew darken your window while you're enjoying a beautiful view at 12:00 pm! The electronic dimmers will be optional on the A350, I just hope most airlines will go for the plastic shades.   




Quoting CXB77L (Reply 135):
I prefer to see through tinted glass than not see anything at all through an opaque plastic window shade.

With the opaque plastic window shade you're the only one in control of your window, that's why I love it. My biggest concern about the electronic dimmers is the fact that the cabin crew can darken my window however, whenever they like.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 135):
Do you have any proof of that?

The only proof is to wait for the 787s to get old. The plastic shades are much simpler than the electronic dimmers that's why I think they're more reliable.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 137):
Couldn't have said it better. It is precisely because of their mechanical nature that they are very susceptible to damage and require fixing often. Add that pax move them up and down with varying degrees of force and possibly at slight angles, then you may see why they do need fixing often...vs pressing a button to tint and untint.

Again, the shades on an A380/77W are not exactly the same as those on a 707/DC-8.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 138):
Quoting yeelep (Reply 141):

Good to hear from maintenance folks, I wonder why can't the 747 have the same easy-to-fix shades as the 737?!

Quoting copter808 (Reply 143):
Try asking the guys upfront. Many of them have said one of the best parts of the job is the view.

Indeed, as I said previously, there's much more than endless clouds and blinding sunlight to see.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 143):
That would depend on the airline. It seems fewer and fewer enforce/require the shades to be up. Personally, and as a first-responder, they should ALWAYS be open for takeoff and landing. As a passenger, if things go wrong I want to be able to see what's outside before I exit. As a first responder, I want to be able to see INSIDE.

I thought all airlines required the shades to be up for take off and landing, especially on daytime flights.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 144):
Do we know if eTint windows are on darkest setting during a crash, can firefighters see inside? Even with loss of power eTint is designed to retain the latest setting. One can assume in a emergency crew may reset all windows to lightest setting, but what is they forget to reset.
Quoting copter808 (Reply 145):
I don't know about that, but was wondering the same thing. I know that in the case of tinted automobile windows it's easy to see out, but pretty difficult to see in from the outside.

I think the crew will set them to the lightest setting for take off and landing, just like they turn on the seat belts sign.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 147):
To the best of my knowledge following my conversion course once power is cut to the windows they become clear again. However this can take up to 90 seconds!

And that's the time it usually takes to completely evacuate the aircraft!

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 150):
sorry if this has been mentioned already...I was just speed reading a lot of the above posts. When I flew on UA's 787, one of the flight attendants told me that they have ultimate control of the windows, so if they want to make the cabin night time, they can override any one passenger that is trying to lighten his window - its a part of the whole cabin environment management that is tied in with the day/night cabin lighting. I found them to be very effective on my flight at keeping the cabin dark in the day time.

I mentioned it many times. Yes, this system puts the crew in full control of all windows, and that's the main reason I don't like it, on a scenic flight I'd rather be on a 25 years old 767 than a 787!

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 156):
During the day, I want the "A" seat, and I want to look out - all the time! As far as flying is concerned, I'm still a little boy fascinated by all that you can see from an aircraft! I've been like that for a loooong time!

Ditto. There's nothing wrong with that, we're a.nutters after all!  

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-09-03 15:00:32 and read 9120 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 158):
The only proof is to wait for the 787s to get old. The plastic shades are much simpler than the electronic dimmers that's why I think they're more reliable.

I must say (and I don't intend to pick on you specifically) that I find it hilarious the number of people that assume because electricity is involved in something it is automatically more complicated/ less reliable than something purely mechanical.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-09-03 15:41:40 and read 9088 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 159):
I must say (and I don't intend to pick on you specifically) that I find it hilarious the number of people that assume because electricity is involved in something it is automatically more complicated/ less reliable than something purely mechanical.

Mechanical is not always the winner, best example would be the MP3 players and digital cameras vs. cassette players and film cameras, but in the case of electronic vs. mechanical shades, I think the mechanical is better.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-09-03 15:45:13 and read 9091 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 159):
I must say (and I don't intend to pick on you specifically) that I find it hilarious the number of people that assume because electricity is involved in something it is automatically more complicated/ less reliable than something purely mechanical.

  

The dimmable window is almost literally the simplest possible electric system.

And (except for the switch, which will take 30 seconds to replace) it can't be abused or broken by passengers. So this will never happen:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 138):
I will never, ever forget the time G-CIVT came into our station with not one, but 13, yes goddam 13 window blinds written up.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DarkSnowyNight
Posted 2013-09-03 16:20:02 and read 9061 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 158):

Good to hear from maintenance folks, I wonder why can't the 747 have the same easy-to-fix shades as the 737?!

They're very similar in overall design. To R&R a blind, there's no getting around pulling that wall panel back. And again, although you can re-track w/ a screwdrivver, leatherman etc., that's not in the AMM and thus why you'll not soon catch me admitting to that here,  

As far as 737s go, I've only ever worked -400s & NGs, but my experience is that they do come untracked, ripped, missing tabs, etc as often as any other. I've only ever worked one airline/contract where that never happened on a 737, but then again, that particular operator always sent us planes in like-new condition to turn. YMMV.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 158):

I mentioned it many times. Yes, this system puts the crew in full control of all windows, and that's the main reason I don't like it, on a scenic flight I'd rather be on a 25 years old 767 than a 787!

And that's the only thing I dislike about this too. I really don't care about any made-up "etiquette" regarding the windows. If you want to look out, go for it! If I need to sleep, I'll pull on some shades. I'm kind of head-scratching that some supposedly "seasoned" travelers haven't figured that out. Such is life I guess.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 160):
Mechanical is not always the winner, best example would be the MP3 players and digital cameras vs. cassette players and film cameras, but in the case of electronic vs. mechanical shades, I think the mechanical is better.

Right, but this is an order of magnitude simpler than an MP3. As for electrics, yes, things do break a lot, though this is usually the hardware of the switch itself, as opposed to a genuine electrical fault. A good example is the rotating switch that BA features to recline/bed out their new F class seats. Those break, come loose or just disappear all the time. But it's an easy fix; much more so than re-hanging a window shade.

For the 787, I honestly don't know how often those switches need replacement, but aside from a defective unit, this is the only component that has any real exposure to abuse vs a blind situated next to PAX who may or may not concern themselves with not breaking things.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Copter808
Posted 2013-09-04 06:43:24 and read 8885 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 158):
I mentioned it many times. Yes, this system puts the crew in full control of all windows, and that's the main reason I don't like it, on a scenic flight I'd rather be on a 25 years old 767 than a 787!

Not sure who has final authority with the window control, but I have never had a problem setting it the way I want after the crew darkens them. You don't have to go to full bright to see outside.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tjh8402
Posted 2013-09-04 06:59:32 and read 8874 times.

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 163):

The UA cabin crew told me they had final authority. In the event that they were setting up the cabin environment for night and "there was that one guy who wants his window at full daylight while everyone else was trying to sleep", they would be able to take control of his window from him. Obviously, they have discretion as to whether or not they want to use that authority.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: angmoh
Posted 2013-09-04 07:19:20 and read 8838 times.

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 163):
Not sure who has final authority with the window control, but I have never had a problem setting it the way I want after the crew darkens them.

To me this is a bit of a stupid question. It's the cabin crew, the same way as they control cabin lighting and everything else. If the cabin crew can be overruled by passengers, we have a bit of a problem....

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-09-04 07:47:41 and read 8808 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 158):
So according to you the jet engines of the 1950s are just the same as the 21st. century engines?!   Any product is refined over time no matter how simple or complicated it is.

You said that, I certainly did not. Also, jet engines are not just mechanical it also entails electrics and electronics.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 158):
Because unlike the plastic shades, the electronic dimmers are used only on a handful of new planes, just wait for them to get a little old.

Gosh, stop arguing with baseless points. Those who work in the industry know just how often mechanical window shades need fixing vs the electronic. The engineering folks and those who work with ground ops have already mentioned this in numerous replies. The electronic makes life a whole lot easier for the airlines.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 158):
Again, the shades on an A380/77W are not exactly the same as those on a 707/DC-8.

Yes they are different, however they are still mechanical and are subject to abuse by passengers. The window shades, arm rests, tray tables are 3 items that often require repair. You as a pax rarely see this because it is usually fixed during long turnarounds and if not, a temp fix is applied until the aircraft is back at base after operations.
You might want to read up on the architecture of the dimmable window to understand just how simple it is, to prevent you saying some more mildly ignorant statements. Plus, wait till you fly a 787 and use it before writing it off. It irks me when people haven't tried something and are quick to "diss" it based on outdated perceptions. You may still not like it, however then your words will based on facts and not your imagination so to speak.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-09-07 12:12:15 and read 8448 times.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 162):
And that's the only thing I dislike about this too. I really don't care about any made-up "etiquette" regarding the windows. If you want to look out, go for it! If I need to sleep, I'll pull on some shades. I'm kind of head-scratching that some supposedly "seasoned" travelers haven't figured that out. Such is life I guess.

  

Quoting angmoh (Reply 165):
To me this is a bit of a stupid question. It's the cabin crew, the same way as they control cabin lighting and everything else. If the cabin crew can be overruled by passengers, we have a bit of a problem....

No, we don't have any problem! If an airline allows and some times charges me to book my window seat, I have the right to open my shade whenever I like, except when the glare is too strong shortly after sunrise.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 166):
You said that, I certainly did not. Also, jet engines are not just mechanical it also entails electrics and electronics.

What I said is ANY product regardless of its complexity is improved over time and the window shades are no exception. I used the jet engines as an example and didn't say you mentioned them at all.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 166):
Gosh, stop arguing with baseless points. Those who work in the industry know just how often mechanical window shades need fixing vs the electronic. The engineering folks and those who work with ground ops have already mentioned this in numerous replies. The electronic makes life a whole lot easier for the airlines.

I'll stop arguing otherwise this thread will keep going on and on, but I'm still doubtful about the reliability of this gimmicky feature.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 166):
wait till you fly a 787 and use it before writing it off. It irks me when people haven't tried something and are quick to "diss" it based on outdated perceptions. You may still not like it, however then your words will based on facts and not your imagination so to speak.

I haven't flown the 787 but I heard from those who flew it on this website and in real life, so I know what I'm talking about! I'll be more than happy to fly the 787 but not on an overland daytime flight.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-09-07 12:18:05 and read 8434 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 167):
No, we don't have any problem! If an airline allows and some times charges me to book my window seat, I have the right to open my shade whenever I like, except when the glare is too strong shortly after sunrise.

So if a crew member instructs you to close your window shade (and it's not "glaring" outside)... you won't?

Tugg

[Edited 2013-09-07 12:24:11]

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2013-09-07 12:33:16 and read 8428 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):

Flying on Boeing 717 and 737's I usually get my window seat. And with the shade up on the sunny side I can feel the heat but, never had any trouble touching the window. So, I'm wondering with the dimmable windows on the 787 is the plastic/plexi glass a different material? And is hot to the touch when exposed to the direct sun?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-09-09 13:32:52 and read 8047 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 168):
So if a crew member instructs you to close your window shade (and it's not "glaring" outside)... you won't?

Tugg

Luckily I've only been asked to close my shade on TATL/TPAC redeyes, I can't imagine being asked to close it while enjoying a nice view in the middle of the day, if it happens I guess I will do what these resourceful guys did!   ....

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 59):
I do sneak an occasional peak out from time to time, using the pillow or blanket as a partial shade!
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 106):
Havent seen one broken EVER, then again I always have it up so I would not notice. (just kidding when on a long haul flight I close it when they ask us to do it, but yes Ill use my jacket as a shield to peer out every now and then.)
Quoting klmd11l (Reply 112):
You guys remind me of my first and only flight over the Himalayas (FRA-BKK with TG), while enjoying a spectacular view the F/A asked me to close my window, I did, but the view was so irresistible I decided to improvise and use a blanket around the window frame to block the light, however, the F/A came again and asked me to close my window, despite my makeshift blanket-shade blocking almost all the light!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-10 09:12:23 and read 7748 times.

Quoting angmoh (Reply 165):
To me this is a bit of a stupid question. It's the cabin crew, the same way as they control cabin lighting and everything else. If the cabin crew can be overruled by passengers, we have a bit of a problem....

I'm sorry you think it's a stupid question, but your own argument seems to miss the point. If the cabin crew turns down the lights, I still have the option of turning MY reading light on! Hence, I still have light.

I don't know how many trips you have on the 787, but I have NEVER seen a problem when someone lightens the window after the crew has darkened them. If the crew has the final override, I've never seen it used.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tommytoyz
Posted 2013-09-10 10:17:05 and read 7662 times.

Quoting klmd11l (Reply 112):
You guys remind me of my first and only flight over the Himalayas (FRA-BKK with TG), while enjoying a spectacular view the F/A asked me to close my window,

That is lovely. I would also have defied the F/As. How many times can you experience flying over the Himalayas?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-10 11:59:02 and read 7590 times.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 172):
That is lovely. I would also have defied the F/As. How many times can you experience flying over the Himalayas?

Why not just ask her if you could keep it open for the view? If she says "no", then I would consider writing a letter to the CEO (in a polite manner) explaining your disappointment.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-09-10 12:03:35 and read 7593 times.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 173):
Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 172):
That is lovely. I would also have defied the F/As. How many times can you experience flying over the Himalayas?

Why not just ask her if you could keep it open for the view? If she says "no", then I would consider writing a letter to the CEO (in a polite manner) explaining your disappointment.

And neatly bringing this back on topic, if one is on a 787 over the Himalayas you can continue to watch the amazing view outside of your window!! No need "sneaking" or defying needed, just look and enjoy.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-09-10 12:18:47]

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-10 12:14:22 and read 7560 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 174):
And neatly bringing this back on topic, if one is on a 787 over the Himalayas you can continue to watch the amazing view outside of your window!! No need to "sneaking" or defying needed, just look and enjoy.

Good job getting back on topic and good point with the outside view! Although you might want to lighten the tint a bit, it won't be enough to bother others.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: HBGDS
Posted 2013-09-10 18:58:23 and read 7448 times.

Quoting evomutant (Reply 29):

It's not like it is new technology. Electrochromic glass has been around for a long time. It's just new to airliners.

  

Lockheed offered the feature in 1971 on its Tristar. Nobody took it up: too heavy and costly it seems.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-09-11 00:13:18 and read 7368 times.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 173):
Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 172):
That is lovely. I would also have defied the F/As. How many times can you experience flying over the Himalayas?

Why not just ask her if you could keep it open for the view? If she says "no", then I would consider writing a letter to the CEO (in a polite manner) explaining your disappointment.

OR....

In a far more practical way, just ask for the in charge crew member to complain to. It'll be a lot faster and it may actually get listened to!!!!

CEOs of major airlines (with the rare exception of perhaps one or two eccentrics) don't read your letters! They have airlines to run!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-11 07:12:36 and read 7251 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 177):
In a far more practical way, just ask for the in charge crew member to complain to. It'll be a lot faster and it may actually get listened to!!!!

CEOs of major airlines (with the rare exception of perhaps one or two eccentrics) don't read your letters! They have airlines to run!

Correct, but my thinking was that by writing the letter, it's a past incident and you're more likely to get a credit voucher. I realize that many CEO's never read these letters, but some do. And the complaint should be forwarded to down the line in any case.

However, so far, at least here on this forum, nobody has ever cited an example of the flight crew overruling someone wanting to lighten the tint. If we all use a reasonable amount of courtesy it should never be an issue.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: klmd11l
Posted 2013-09-11 10:46:47 and read 7163 times.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 172):
That is lovely. I would also have defied the F/As. How many times can you experience flying over the Himalayas?

When he asked me for the second time while using my blanket as a shade, I told him "I didn't book a window seat to close my shade", however, he insisted that I have to close my window, so I did, then a few minutes later I half-opened my window and continued to look out with the help of my blanket-shade.   The view was just too good to miss.




Quoting copter808 (Reply 173):
Why not just ask her if you could keep it open for the view? If she says "no", then I would consider writing a letter to the CEO (in a polite manner) explaining your disappointment.

All pax who opened their shades were forced to close them, I think some airlines like to keep their pax asleep for as long as possible to minimize their demands and cut costs.




Quoting tonystan (Reply 177):
OR....

In a far more practical way, just ask for the in charge crew member to complain to. It'll be a lot faster and it may actually get listened to!!!!

I don't think so, it was the chief crew member/purser who asked me to close my shade.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-09-12 06:50:19 and read 6938 times.

Quoting klmd11l (Reply 179):

Ill have to ask what airline this was because it just doesn't sound true at all! Never ever worked for or experienced an airline that would force it's customers to close its window blinds.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: masi1157
Posted 2013-09-12 08:16:34 and read 6874 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 180):
Ill have to ask what airline this was because it just doesn't sound true at all! Never ever worked for or experienced an airline that would force it's customers to close its window blinds.

Oh, that happened to me many many times. In fact on almost every flight flying through the night into the morning/sunrise


Gruß, masi1157

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: JHwk
Posted 2013-09-12 08:37:31 and read 6855 times.

Quoting kasimir (Reply 32):
I didn't fly on the 787 yet, but I kind of like the dimming feature, but it should compliment the shades not replace them IMO

It doesn't work that way; perceived light levels are logarithmic: 5% transmittance through one window when all the rest of the windows are at 0% transmittance will still have a huge contrast ratio in perceived light levels once your eyes get into dark adaptation.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: masi1157
Posted 2013-09-12 10:16:34 and read 6801 times.

So far I had one return flight FRA - HND on a B787 in late June 2012. The return flight leaves HND at 01:00 at night, then heads northwest to Sibiria, where we experienced the midnight sun. The sun was just above the horizon, shining right into the R/H windows. I was sitting on the L/H side and took this photo:

http://abload.de/img/tokio-787-250_dscn098xssi9.jpg

Closer to Europe we turned southwest and left the midnight sun area. And just before landing in FRA the sun rose again. Strange to have 2 dark phases with sunlight in between and a 2nd sunrise on an 11h flight.


Gruß, masi1157

[Edited 2013-09-12 10:38:19]

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: klmd11l
Posted 2013-09-12 13:15:01 and read 6701 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 180):
Ill have to ask what airline this was because it just doesn't sound true at all! Never ever worked for or experienced an airline that would force it's customers to close its window blinds.

It's true, it was TG, FRA-BKK flight as I mentioned in an earlier reply.





Quoting masi1157 (Reply 181):
Oh, that happened to me many many times. In fact on almost every flight flying through the night into the morning/sunrise


Gruß, masi1157

Same here,   The TG flight was the highlight because the view was the best I've ever experienced.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: tommytoyz
Posted 2013-09-12 22:34:15 and read 6564 times.

Quoting copter808 (Reply 173):
Why not just ask her if you could keep it open for the view? If she says "no", then I would consider writing a letter to the CEO (in a polite manner) explaining your disappointment.

Because the experience would be lost. A letter or a voucher can not replace the experience. The experience is priceless.

Quoting klmd11l (Reply 179):
When he asked me for the second time while using my blanket as a shade, I told him "I didn't book a window seat to close my shade", however, he insisted that I have to close my window, so I did, then a few minutes later I half-opened my window and continued to look out with the help of my blanket-shade. The view was just too good to miss.

That's exactly what I have done in the past when the view is worth it. What are they going to do? It's not a safety issue and there are no laws on this I am sure. After a while they give up. But I only do it when it's worth the experiencing.

Back on topic, does anyone know if electronically controlled shades can be fitted onto new built existing frames? Like A329NEOs, etc...

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-09-16 13:47:14 and read 6097 times.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 185):
Back on topic, does anyone know if electronically controlled shades can be fitted onto new built existing frames? Like A329NEOs, etc...

I doubt we'll see any retrofitting and I sure hope this feature will never become popular.    Please Airbus keep it optional on the A350!

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-09-16 14:28:06 and read 6013 times.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 186):

Amen!

TRB

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-09-17 10:28:38 and read 5777 times.

Quoting n797mx (Reply 9):
When I was on the 787 back in November I thought the shades were a nice novelty, but completely useless. They let in way too much light, made everything green, and those who don't want to look out the window will be terrified. Not to mention the thing got so bloody hot that you couldn't stand being next to it for more than a few minutes when dimmed.

That wasn't my experience at all.

I just flew JL002 from HND to SFO last night and wanted to share my impressions. On this midnight departure flight, the sun rose about 3 hours into the trip and I was on the sunward side of the cabin. The cabin crew had automatically adjusted the windows to full darkness (although I could lighten my own if I wanted).

With the sun up outside and the windows fully darkened, the inside of the cabin looked as dark as if it were nighttime with all the windows open. The view through the window itself in full sun made it appear as if we were flying through an unusually bright moonlit night, except the "moon" was just barely too bright to look at directly. The sun was a bit annoying when it was shining directly in my face, but not eye-wateringly so. The interior plexiglass of the window was a bit warm, but not nearly as warm as a traditional windowshade gets. Even with the shade fully darkened, I could clearly see the outside. The wings with the flaps and ailerons, the clouds below, etc.

As an additional benefit, once the lights had been turned on for the pre-arrival meal service (the cabin lights are amazing, BTW, but that's a different discussion), I brightened the window to half power. This was an ideal setting for looking out the window as it's like having sunglasses installed directly into the window. Bright enough to see everything (including the shadows from the shockwaves on the wings!) but dim enough to not be hard on the eyes.

In summary, I was very impressed with how well the windows work and I can only assume that the airlines have been very happy with them, as well.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-09-17 15:14:07 and read 5675 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 188):
In summary, I was very impressed with how well the windows work and I can only assume that the airlines have been very happy with them, as well.

They still sound like a potential maintenance nightmare as they age. And does anyone know how they compare with traditional windows and windowshades in original cost? What do the 787's windows add to the aircraft's total cost?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-09-17 15:44:20 and read 5618 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 188):
With the sun up outside and the windows fully darkened, the inside of the cabin looked as dark as if it were nighttime with all the windows open. The view through the window itself in full sun made it appear as if we were flying through an unusually bright moonlit night, except the "moon" was just barely too bright to look at directly. The sun was a bit annoying when it was shining directly in my face, but not eye-wateringly so. The interior plexiglass of the window was a bit warm, but not nearly as warm as a traditional windowshade gets. Even with the shade fully darkened, I could clearly see the outside. The wings with the flaps and ailerons, the clouds below, etc.

Thanks! That is what I'd hoped for with these new shades, especially on a late-night departure that flies into daylight early on. I am looking forward to my first flight on the 787 to NRT.

It does seem a bit like "day for night" in motion pictures, when they use heavy filtering to make the day look like nighttime with a full moon! And, flying at night with a full moon and the shades open is not a problem for pax, at least in my experience crossing the Atlantic eastbound.

This may have been addressed before on here, but will the 737MAX have electronic shades standard or optional?

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-17 16:02:57 and read 5600 times.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 185):

Because the experience would be lost. A letter or a voucher can not replace the experience. The experience is priceless.

But by the time you have written the letter the trip is over. Whether you closed the shade or not, I would still write expressing disappointment. You may be told in a nice way to FO, but you have little to lose.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 185):
What are they going to do? It's not a safety issue and there are no laws on this I am sure

I would be very careful about pushing this too far. The laws about disobeying a crewmember do not specifically refer to safety issues. I trust that you're smart enough to comply before it reaches that point though.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-09-17 16:10:50 and read 5598 times.

My person experience is pretty much in line with DocL's. I love them!

[quote=Viscount724,reply=189]They still sound like a potential maintenance nightmare as they age. And does anyone know how they compare with traditional windows and windowshades in original cost? What do the 787's windows add to the aircraft's total cost?

Some people who are in a position to know have said they cost far less to maintain. Also, if Boeing does not offer the shades as an option, they would be far more expensive to certify and install.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-09-17 16:35:31 and read 5559 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 189):
They still sound like a potential maintenance nightmare as they age. And does anyone know how they compare with traditional windows and windowshades in original cost? What do the 787's windows add to the aircraft's total cost?

They have no moving parts except the switches in the little button that the passenger uses. Those look like they are probably very easy to replace, unlike a windowshade. Windowshades break and jam all the time and then the entire wall panel has to be taken off.

And don't forget that the size of the 787 window would mandate a *very* tall windowshade indeed.

As for whether Boeing will install them on the 737, I think that would add a lot to the cost of the program, and I don't think the shades are as crucial on shorter-range aircraft that aren't going to fly across eight time zones in one leg.

Interestingly, Airbus did not choose this system for the A350, which I think is unfortunate.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2013-09-18 05:42:17 and read 5403 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 193):
mandate a *very* tall windowshade indeed.

Good point. Is there enough room above the window (in the side wall) to slide any shade up?

Another point is the life cycle cost of the shades. Consider how often an airline replace the sidewalls in the life time of the aircraft (whether the shades failed or not). The life cycle cost of the shade may be more than the life cycle cost of the windows.

bt

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-09-18 15:24:44 and read 5250 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 193):
And don't forget that the size of the 787 window would mandate a *very* tall windowshade indeed.

There's the option of the double windowshade as on the BAe146/Avro RJ where the top half slides down and the bottom half slides up and they meet in the middle.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Robert Nicander

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2013-09-18 15:34:12 and read 5235 times.

As long as you don't see this on your 787 dimmable window...

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-09-18 15:39:03 and read 5218 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 193):
They have no moving parts except the switches in the little button that the passenger uses. Those look like they are probably very easy to replace, unlike a windowshade.

If replacing buttons is so easy, why most of armrest audio/light control buttons are in dire state. Same goes for IFE wired remote buttons.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2013-09-19 06:28:17 and read 5062 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 197):
why most of armrest audio/light control buttons are in dire state

For most of us, we can blame it on procrastination  
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 195):

There's the option of the double windowshade as on the BAe146/Avro RJ where the top half slides down and the bottom half slides up and they meet in the middle.

You just double the price and cut the reliability in half. Still, we don't know if the cost would be more than the dim-able window. Only time will tell.

bt

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: Pygmalion
Posted 2013-09-19 09:35:17 and read 4981 times.

It may not be obvious, but the dimmable window pane is not part of the sidewall and can be changed independently of the sidewall and/or window itself. Takes about 20 minutes to change and does not require removal of the sidewall for access.

Topic: RE: 787 Dimmable Window And The Sun
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-09-19 13:14:57 and read 4908 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 188):
In summary, I was very impressed with how well the windows work and I can only assume that the airlines have been very happy with them, as well.

Were you impressed with seeing 2 wings out of your window too?!    Gotta "love" those reflections, especially if you're a photographer!

Tokyo-Boston Via JAL 787 In Y-class (pics+vid) (by mel Sep 12 2013 in Trip Reports)

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 189):
They still sound like a potential maintenance nightmare as they age.

That's what I've been saying all along, only time will tell, but I think they'll not be as reliable and economical as the plastic shades.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 193):
Interestingly, Airbus did not choose this system for the A350, which I think is unfortunate.

Unfortunately they'll be available on the A350, but only as an option. I hope most airlines will do the right thing and choose the traditional shades.   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 193):
And don't forget that the size of the 787 window would mandate a *very* tall windowshade indeed.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 194):
Good point. Is there enough room above the window (in the side wall) to slide any shade up?

When you have the resources to design and build such a highly sophisticated airliner, I'm sure you'd have absolutely no problem finding a way to accommodate the window shades.


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