Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5859855/

Topic: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: AirbusGeek
Posted 2013-09-02 00:01:47 and read 10827 times.

As the title says, when will US Airways receive their first Airbus A350? 2017 is the delivery year, according to this article:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11922...irways-awaits-a-2017-delivery.html

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2013-09-02 00:31:59 and read 10721 times.

...it'll be on a cold, cold day in Dallas...

I fully expect that order to be "modified" further. But time will tell.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-09-02 00:53:35 and read 10614 times.

Quoting AirbusGeek (Thread starter):
As the title says, when will US Airways receive their first Airbus A350? 2017 is the delivery year, according to this article:

Well, the article that you've linked says 4Q 2017, which is when they've been expecting them for quite some time. So that's your answer, as it stands now.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-09-02 01:02:08 and read 10565 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
...it'll be on a cold, cold day in Dallas...

Yes, yes, yes. They said AA would NEVER buy Airbus again. They were wrong as well.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2013-09-02 01:06:10 and read 10545 times.

IIRC, US was supposed to receive them next year, but pushed them back to 2015, and then pushed them back to 2017. US was supposed to be the launch customer for the original A350 (prior to the XWB redesign) with deliveries scheduled from 2011-2013. After the redesign, they signed on as the North American launch customer, but unfortunately now that title will go to UA.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-02 01:17:36 and read 10498 times.

I personally don't believe the A358 will have entered service by 2017. I think the a351 will be the next in line. I can't see A post merger AA/US operating 787s and an A358. A359 yes, in which case the timing may work out.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2013-09-02 02:26:40 and read 10308 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):
I personally don't believe the A358 will have entered service by 2017. I think the a351 will be the next in line.

There was speculation this would be the case, after an Airbus spokesman completely forgot to mention the -800 in the A350 time line at the A350-900 roll-out. A litttle while later this was corrected and the official Airbus standpoint is still the A358 to follow the -900. As a straight shrink, this shouldn't cause much headache for Airbus anyway... If there are customers that want the -800, Airbus will build it.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):
I can't see A post merger AA/US operating 787s and an A358. A359 yes, in which case the timing may work out.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
Yes, yes, yes. They said AA would NEVER buy Airbus again. They were wrong as well.

IF the US/AA merger doesn't fall through, I expect the A358s for US to be converted to A359s. It would be a perfect replacement for AA's 77E's (together with 787-10s for Transatlantic routes).

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: DL Widget Head
Posted 2013-09-02 05:04:48 and read 9955 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
...it'll be on a cold, cold day in Dallas...

Well, if they take delivery in the 4th qtr 2017 as the referenced article states then it may literally be a cold, cold day in Dallas.  

[Edited 2013-09-02 05:05:32]

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: Miami
Posted 2013-09-02 08:08:10 and read 9552 times.

Why doesn't AA like Airbus???

I'd love to see both a 787 and A350 in the AA fleet.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: evomutant
Posted 2013-09-02 08:16:21 and read 9479 times.

Quoting Miami (Reply 8):
Why doesn't AA like Airbus???

I'd love to see both a 787 and A350 in the AA fleet.

They have ordered 260 odd airbus themselves in recent times

The AA don't like airbus myth is just a comfort blanket for some a.netters.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: usairways85
Posted 2013-09-02 08:23:51 and read 9425 times.

If the merger does indeed fall through, US will be at a severe disadvantage in terms of the number of widebodie/international capable aircraft they have on the property. They pushed back the 332 deliveries, though they received I think 5 in 2013 and have another 6 to be delivered. And it is a long time until the 350s start to arrive.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-09-02 08:34:27 and read 9350 times.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 10):
They pushed back the 332 deliveries, though they received I think 5 in 2013 and have another 6 to be delivered.

Were those for expansion or replacement of the 762? Which - don't get me wrong - needed to be done.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-02 10:01:55 and read 9040 times.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 6):
If there are customers that want the -800, Airbus will build it.

Of course. I was simply suggesting a reshuffling of order. We will see.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 6):
A359s. It would be a perfect replacement for AA's 77E's (together with 787-10s for Transatlantic routes).

Absolutely would. Many seem to think that they will go up to the 351 but AA likes smaller aircraft and they just bought 20 77Ws so I think they have satisfied their 350 seat needs for a number of years.

Quoting evomutant (Reply 9):
The AA don't like airbus myth

Up until 6 weeks ago AA never operated Airbus aircraft. I am not sure if that is a statement about them not liking Airbus but its clearly a statement of preference.

If Boeing could have provided them 500+ aircraft in their desired window it may have worked out differently. In the end AA will be better with a mixed fleet as they will be able to better match the aircraft with the route.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-09-02 10:08:27 and read 8982 times.

Should the AA/US merger go through (and as I've said before here, I think it still will), I see AA swapping the A350 orders for more A319s and A321s (both CEOs and NEOs) to accelerate the MD-80 retirements and start replacing US's oldest A32x frames with NEOs. Another option would be some more A330s (-200s and maybe a few -300s, this time with Trents instead of PW4000s on the -300s) to replace 763ERs on routes where 787 range isn't needed (-200) and provide extra lift for European routes that don't need 777 range (-300). However, given how desperate AA is to unload the MD-80s, I see Doug Parker going for the former over the latter.

As the 767s are retired, AA's post-merger widebody future will be the A330 (-200 and -300), 787 (-8, -9, and -10), and 777 (-200ER, more -300ER, and potentially the 777X-9). There is no fit for the A350XWB, especially the -800 with capacity so close to the dozens of 787s on firm order with PMAA, in the post-merger AA fleet.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: gkirk
Posted 2013-09-02 10:08:49 and read 8981 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 13):
Up until 6 weeks ago AA never operated Airbus aircraft.

Hmmm....Im sure I recall a few A300s...including one they crashed in New York.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-09-02 10:10:34 and read 8960 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 13):
Up until 6 weeks ago AA never operated Airbus aircraft.

Forgot about the 35 (34 after the crash of AA587) A300-600Rs based at JFK and MIA that were flown by AA for almost 25 years?

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2013-09-02 10:13:03 and read 8951 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 13):
Up until 6 weeks ago AA never operated Airbus aircraft

A300?

There were also rumours of a fall out between AA and Airbus after the A300 queens crash - but as with the vast majority of Anet rumours it turned out to be total BS.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-09-02 10:18:48 and read 8900 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 17):
There were also rumours of a fall out between AA and Airbus after the A300 queens crash - but as with the vast majority of Anet rumours it turned out to be total BS.

A later order by AA does not necessarily mean AA and Airbus didn't have a falling out- AA was publicly unhappy with Airbus after the crash as they felt Airbus was trying to shift the blame completely on them and their training. But as the old adage goes, time heals all wounds.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-02 10:57:46 and read 8441 times.

Quoting gkirk (Reply 15):
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 16):
Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 17):

Ah the scarebus, forgot about it. Thanks for the correction guys. Wiki got me again. Still there has been a very clear preference. I have a hard time coming up with many carriers with 450+ aircraft all from one OEM (more aircraft if you include MD; WN does as well) .

tortugamon

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-09-02 11:00:59 and read 8392 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
...it'll be on a cold, cold day in Dallas...

I fully expect that order to be "modified" further. But time will tell.

I do to. I suspect the -800 to go away and the -900 to be the bread-winner on many of the old 77E routes.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 6):
IF the US/AA merger doesn't fall through, I expect the A358s for US to be converted to A359s. It would be a perfect replacement for AA's 77E's (together with 787-10s for Transatlantic routes).

Exactly.

-Dave

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-09-02 11:04:07 and read 8356 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 14):
Should the AA/US merger go through (and as I've said before here, I think it still will), I see AA swapping the A350 orders for more A319s and A321s (both CEOs and NEOs) to accelerate the MD-80 retirements and start replacing US's oldest A32x frames with NEOs. Another option would be some more A330s (-200s and maybe a few -300s, this time with Trents instead of PW4000s on the -300s) to replace 763ERs on routes where 787 range isn't needed (-200) and provide extra lift for European routes that don't need 777 range (-300). However, given how desperate AA is to unload the MD-80s, I see Doug Parker going for the former over the latter.

As the 767s are retired, AA's post-merger widebody future will be the A330 (-200 and -300), 787 (-8, -9, and -10), and 777 (-200ER, more -300ER, and potentially the 777X-9). There is no fit for the A350XWB, especially the -800 with capacity so close to the dozens of 787s on firm order with PMAA, in the post-merger AA fleet.
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 14):
Should the AA/US merger go through (and as I've said before here, I think it still will), I see AA swapping the A350 orders for more A319s and A321s (both CEOs and NEOs) to accelerate the MD-80 retirements and start replacing US's oldest A32x frames with NEOs. Another option would be some more A330s (-200s and maybe a few -300s, this time with Trents instead of PW4000s on the -300s) to replace 763ERs on routes where 787 range isn't needed (-200) and provide extra lift for European routes that don't need 777 range (-300). However, given how desperate AA is to unload the MD-80s, I see Doug Parker going for the former over the latter.

As the 767s are retired, AA's post-merger widebody future will be the A330 (-200 and -300), 787 (-8, -9, and -10), and 777 (-200ER, more -300ER, and potentially the 777X-9). There is no fit for the A350XWB, especially the -800 with capacity so close to the dozens of 787s on firm order with PMAA, in the post-merger AA fleet.

Good analysis... I think a key point here is that the A350-800 has not been a huge success and it would not surprise me if Airbus persuaded carriers to dump it and go for the -900; US also has 4 A359s on order, as well as the 18 -800s. Of course, the -900 really clashes with the 772 and 789/10. My personal expectation is, like FWAERJ, we will see American negotiate a deal to allow them to cancel in favour of A320Neos.

Long term, assuming the merger does actually happen, I can see American having a fleet of 779s (gradually taking over from the 77Ws), 787s of all three versions (so we are talking about a requirement of well over 100 acft here) and then, the short haul requirement split between the 737Max/-800 and A32X. It'll be a far simpler fleet than now.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-09-02 11:18:45 and read 8163 times.

Quoting Miami (Reply 8):

Why doesn't AA like Airbus???

I'd love to see both a 787 and A350 in the AA fleet.

I don't know that AA doesn't like Airbus, they are receiving their order as we speak. The A321 should be in service shortly as well as the A319.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2013-09-02 11:34:52 and read 7950 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
Yes, yes, yes. They said AA would NEVER buy Airbus again. They were wrong as well.

Um, thanks, but I have my own opinion, for my own reasons- I'm not listening to "them".
And it has nothing to do with the manufacturer.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):
I personally don't believe the A358 will have entered service by 2017. I think the a351 will be the next in line. I can't see A post merger AA/US operating 787s and an A358. A359 yes, in which case the timing may work out.

Possibly.

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 7):
Well, if they take delivery in the 4th qtr 2017 as the referenced article states then it may literally be a cold, cold day in Dallas.

Dallas has never SEEN a cold, cold day! I grew up there. I now live in Alaska. So take my word for it!

Quoting Miami (Reply 8):
Why doesn't AA like Airbus???

I don't think it's that they don't like Airbus, per se, as much as they didn't like the A300.


I simply don't think the A350 will be a good fit at the unmerged USAirways, or in the fleet of the merged AA.
But, as I said before, time will tell.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: piedmont727
Posted 2013-09-02 11:44:15 and read 7820 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 23):
Dallas has never SEEN a cold, cold day! I grew up there. I now live in Alaska. So take my word for it!

last few years have been cold , not Alaska weather but we have seen snow

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-09-02 11:44:45 and read 8115 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 23):
I simply don't think the A350 will be a good fit at the unmerged USAirways, or in the fleet of the merged AA.

For the unmerged US I feel the 788 would be a better fit size-wise, but it seems we're going to dual-sourced fleets across the board these days for the legacies so we might as well get AA/US onboard with the 787/777/350.  

-Dave

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: usairways85
Posted 2013-09-02 12:26:16 and read 7649 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
Were those for expansion or replacement of the 762? Which - don't get me wrong - needed to be done.

I believe the 332s were supposed to replace the 762s. The premium product on the 762 is lagging and I don't know when the last time the Y cabin received a refresh. The 332s are needed to replace these 762s on international routes so US can offer a fairly consistent product (with the exception being the 752s, which I'm not sure how long they will be around).

UA dumped the PMCO 762s rather quickly but with far fewer wide bodies US may not be in such a position.

US should have a Plan B fleet strategy in the event the merger falls through. Given the age of the 762s and only 6 wide bodies planned to be delivered in the next 4 years US will be handcuffed in international growth.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-02 13:24:54 and read 6986 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 25):
For the unmerged US I feel the 788 would be a better fit size-wise
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 23):
I simply don't think the A350 will be a good fit at the unmerged USAirways, or in the fleet of the merged AA.

At this point I have a hard time seeing them cancel the order. They ordered them very early and probably got a great deal in addition to the $250 Million they got in financing from Airbus (paid back). I believe they also ordered the A350 before the design change so they should be able to move the order around (or even cancel) without too much hassle. At this point it does not look like the A358 will be able to match the 789 but it won't be that far off and in some limited cases it could have a better payload/range. Coupled with commonality and availability, exit financing, and early purchasing the A358 is a good fit even if it isn't ideal fuel burn wise.

An unmerged US will need aircraft late this decade and an A358 will still beat the pants off an A332. I see them keeping the order if Airbus sticks with the current schedule but if they re-shuffle the order to optimize the A358 like I think they should do, and if the merger doesn't go through, I could see US having a difficult decision that will probably lead them to buying more A332 at very steep discounts. I just don't see 787s fitting into their plan. Its too late in the game and the 787s are very expensive and the book is largely full anyway. The A359 does seem to big for them (unmerged).

tortugamon

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-09-02 14:02:49 and read 6601 times.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 10):

If the merger does indeed fall through, US will be at a severe disadvantage in terms of the number of widebodie/international capable aircraft they have on the property.

I was just thinking the same thing. And the A330 is a great plane, but for a carrier with US's ambitions, it's not enough. 2017 is a long way off. However, if the merger does fall through, US can still be OneWorld and so can use AA's international network to bolster its own.

The A350 also has a role in a merged fleet. The A358 and 9 can serve as a replacement for aging 772's. The 77X family is still a long way off and it might turn out to be a compliment to, rather than a competitor to, the A350 in an airline the size of AA.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-09-02 14:12:59 and read 6461 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 27):
At this point I have a hard time seeing them cancel the order.

To be clear, I'm not advocating that US ditch the A350 nor am I expecting that they could/should/would get a 787 instead. I'm just agreeing that the -800 seems like the least optimal of the family while the -900 seems like perhaps a bit more than they need.

Regardless, it'll be A350 or bust.  

-Dave

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2013-09-02 14:59:36 and read 5997 times.

If the merger does not go through, I too wonder if:

1. US will attempt to order, or perhaps lease more A332s until the A350s arrive.
2. Move the A350 order forward, if possible.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-09-02 17:14:12 and read 4861 times.

To those saying that the A350 would be redundant with the 787, the 359 has one valuable feature that the 78J lacks: range.

I realise that there is a whole thread going on right now about whether the 78J can make JFK-HKG, but the consensus (especially from those with a tech/ops background) is no, at least not with a full belly. Where the 788/9 and 77W could serve this function, sure the 359 would be the more appropriate replacement for the 77E on the Asian routes?

That's not to say that I don't think that AA will order the 78J, it will probably be superior for Europe and LatAm routes, but I see a role for both.

Topic: RE: US Airways A350s- When?!
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-02 19:34:20 and read 3859 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 33):
That's not to say that I don't think that AA will order the 78J, it will probably be superior for Europe and LatAm routes, but I see a role for both.

True. I think a lot will come down to trip cost of the 787-10 vs A359. For heavy 787 operators the -10 may be just enough to get them what they need and they will use the 787-9 or 77W/X for long distance. Some may use the 351 and the 787-10 like UA appears to be doing which makes a lot of sense as well. However, I personally do not see much room for both A359 and 787-10 in many airlines' fleets (SQ may be an exception but that appears to be a Scoot thing). The A359 is a great 77E replacement, no doubt, but its too close in size to the 787-10 IMO.

Also, if the 787-10 becomes successful and weights don't get out of control (big if) then I think we will see a 787-10 with 7,800nm+ range before too long. Weights appear to be 2t below spec on the 787-9 which bodes well and Boeing announced a freighter using the 787-9 frame. A freighter would have been difficult to announce without knowing they could have a solid engine thrust bump and with natural improvements over time like the A333 has shown so well, a 787-10HGW will just need some attention to the MLG to make it happen. I think this was part of UA's thinking. 77E replacement market should not hit in serious effect until after 2020 anyway. Only 3 772s have been scrapped so far...

A359 has the clear head start but there is room for both overall; I just don't think we will see them in the same fleet too often.

tortugamon


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/