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Topic: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-09-01 23:18:43 and read 10522 times.

Hi all,

Interesting article from SCMP regarding Finnair's strategy in Asia. Some key points from the article:

> Around half of AY revenue is coming from Asia routes
> AY plans to double its revenue from ASIA-Finland traffic by 2020
> 1 Asian route addition planned every year
> Every day, 7,000 Chinese people are getting on a plane for the first time
> AY plans to increase aircraft size to increase volume

Full story here: http://www.scmp.com/business/compani...s-key-finnair-asian-revenue-target

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: Spiderguy252
Posted 2013-09-01 23:29:03 and read 10461 times.

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
1 Asian route addition planned every year

An Indian destination or two, hopefully? Perhaps a return to BOM?

I also notice that they will begin seasonal flights (charters?) to GOI starting December. This is aside from their sole staple destination in the country at present, DEL.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-09-01 23:32:44 and read 10435 times.

And finally something will happen at HEL to accomodate that growth. The state budget promises 200 million euros for Helsinki-Vantaa Airport for further development. The Airport officials said that with this money they can secure investments up to 1 billion in order to develop the airport for future needs.

Source (in English)

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-09-02 01:47:24 and read 10025 times.

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 1):
An Indian destination or two, hopefully? Perhaps a return to BOM?

I also notice that they will begin seasonal flights (charters?) to GOI starting December. This is aside from their sole staple destination in the country at present, DEL.

Returning to BOM would be cool or any new city in India! They just don't have a similar geographical advantage there compairing to Japan and China, thinking the Great Circle routes. My bet is their next (14th) Asian city will be in China, they soon need more widebodies though.

Actually they have had winter charters to Goa for a long time, the new thing in the coming winter is the A321ER (sharklet) used instead of 757. There's a tech stop in Sharjah.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-09-02 01:56:39 and read 9963 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 3):

I'm quite looking forward to seeing the interior of the new A321ER, it is going to be used on both scheduled and charter flights, I just hope it wont be like the 757, aka sardine cans. What is cool about them is that AY is trying a new concept of IFE, there are no over head monitors nor seatback monitors, but pax will be handed out a tablet. How it is all organised and more importantly how it is going to work in practice is interesting. Any other airline out there that does IFE this way?

[Edited 2013-09-02 01:57:27]

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: Spiderguy252
Posted 2013-09-02 02:02:17 and read 9911 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 3):
They just don't have a similar geographical advantage there compairing to Japan and China, thinking the Great Circle routes.

Though back in the mid-2000s they did go about on a heavy advertising spree down here claiming that they were the fastest way to get to Europe and JFK via HEL.

http://www.businessimages.info/clients/finnair/index.html

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-09-02 02:06:47 and read 9891 times.

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 5):

AFAIK Americas-India great circle route passes through Finland, Europe-India not so much.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-09-02 02:19:10 and read 9832 times.

Quoting okAY (Reply 4):

Putting 209 seats on the new A321ER doesn't sound awfully comfortable but after all their main job is to carry charter passengers to the Canaries and Mediterranean. Yes really curious too see how the tablet project works in practise, Hawaiian Airlines did it with iPad Minis:

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/08/haw...s-in-flight-entertainment-devices/

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-09-02 02:36:47 and read 9748 times.

Quoting okAY (Reply 6):
AFAIK Americas-India great circle route passes through Finland, Europe-India not so much.

Yes JFK-HEL-BOM looks ideal on the map, perhaps they will make it work one day.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: sailas
Posted 2013-09-02 05:53:17 and read 9270 times.

I like to see HEL grow, and i like to see AY grow. But i do hate the current helsinki airport. There is nothing about it i do like. Im a big fan of Munich airport.
I do hope to see a new terminal between the 2 parallel runways.
How is the JAL 787 route doing? AY takes of nearly at the same time as JAL? Can they really fill those 2 planes?

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: allrite
Posted 2013-09-02 07:01:15 and read 8986 times.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 4):
What is cool about them is that AY is trying a new concept of IFE, there are no over head monitors nor seatback monitors, but pax will be handed out a tablet. How it is all organised and more importantly how it is going to work in practice is interesting. Any other airline out there that does IFE this way?

Quite common to supply tablet based IFE in the Asia-Pacific, especially with LCCs. Most are preloaded with entertainment, but Qantas on their 767s and Scoot, for instance, wirelessly stream entertainment to supplied iPads or personal devices. On Qantas they can be mounted on the seats to act as pseudo seatback IFE.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: vinniewinnie
Posted 2013-09-02 07:32:21 and read 8629 times.

Can anyone remind me (repeat) what is the unique advantage of Helsinki and why it is able to sustain such a large presence in Asia despite the country relative small size.

I know that on the GC map it's the shortest way to Asia yet from a pure Demand perspective surely it has to attract a lot customers from Scandinavia in order to make the network work. from a competitive point of view i'm also wondering how Finland's high wage cost can compete with other European countries and how Finnair is able to compete with the ME careers that also offer a one stop connection? (albeit with longer travel times)

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: scorp82
Posted 2013-09-02 08:05:05 and read 8304 times.

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
> 1 Asian route addition planned every year

Very interesting article indeed. The article also advises that adding destinations in China is part of the expansion plan, but no possible future destinations are being disclosed.

As such, we can speculate that AY may be considering to add CTU, XMN, TAO, NKG, and/or SHE as possible destinations in China. I believe AY used to serve CAN and perhaps AY is also considering returning to CAN in the near future.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: smbukas
Posted 2013-09-02 08:26:51 and read 8072 times.

Finnair's Asian strategy is not so unique, but I could say it is very well managed.

"Shortest way to Asia" is all about the branding. Passengers do not care so much about 1hour travel difference when total travel time is 10hours and up. Technically, HEL, ARN, CPH, TLL and many other airports have more less the same geographical advantage. The same with DXB - there are better points geographically, but DXB works best as best executed strategy.

I think, for the future, Finnair strategy should me more about connecting 2ndary cities in Europe with 2ndary cities in Asia. That's way I suggest they should look more to underserved China cities, because there are many carriers in BOM and CAN.

The same goes with Europe. I don't think high yield passengers from LON, CDG, AMS could choose Finnair. But passengers from secondary cities could do. For example, at VNO we have very small presence of TK and now MEB3 are present (or will be present in next 5 years). That makes AY the best possible option to travel to Asia. The same goes in RIX, TLL, GOT, BUD and some other.

The efficiency are also important for them, as all the traffic AY has is definitely not high-yielding. I traveled to Asia on AY in business few times and loads where more, despite the fact AY was more then third cheaper in Business then LH, SK, TK. Their financial reports show that deal with FlyBe helped them a lot to reduce cost of regional operation.

Play in their own niche, not to grow to fast, maintain relatively low costs and develop brand in Asia - that is I think keys for Finnair's future.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: lucce
Posted 2013-09-02 10:56:29 and read 6849 times.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 11):

Can anyone remind me (repeat) what is the unique advantage of Helsinki and why it is able to sustain such a large presence in Asia despite the country relative small size.

Well, like their slogan says "the shortest route between Europe and Asia". That's what it's all about. Location, location, location. They can support a larger variety of destinations in Asia because they can turn their aircraft in 24h meaning only one aircraft per daily route. Go to lets say ARN and you already loose this advantage to some destinations. Secondly HEL is not too far from western Europe meaning efficient use of aircraft there as well. From example SVO is farther away so that they cant use their European fleet so efficiently.

Secondly, as mentioned, every time a aircraft flies from Europe to Asia is free advertisement for AY.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 11):
from a competitive point of view i'm also wondering how Finland's high wage cost can compete with other European countries
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...g-and-ryanair-excel-on-costs-97635 Not actually that high.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 7):
Putting 209 seats on the new A321ER doesn't sound awfully comfortable but after all their main job is to carry charter passengers to the Canaries and Mediterranean.

Well LX has 207 seats in theirs if you count the middle seats in business class permanently blocked to reduce the seat count to 200 so that they dont need the 5th FA. LH has 205 and they fly them on routes over four hours long.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: dalca
Posted 2013-09-02 12:15:42 and read 6295 times.

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 11):

Can anyone remind me (repeat) what is the unique advantage of Helsinki and why it is able to sustain such a large presence in Asia despite the country relative small size.

Well, like their slogan says "the shortest route between Europe and Asia". That's what it's all about. Location, location, location. They can support a larger variety of destinations in Asia because they can turn their aircraft in 24h meaning only one aircraft per daily route. Go to lets say ARN and you already loose this advantage to some destinations. Secondly HEL is not too far from western Europe meaning efficient use of aircraft there as well. From example SVO is farther away so that they cant use their European fleet so efficiently

I read an article in Airports Monthly a couple of years ago about HEL in which it said that concerning CO2 emissions, it is better for a plabe to go eg DEL-HEL-JFK then to go DEL-JFK non-stop. It burns less fuel and it is able to take a higher cargo payload.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: spud757
Posted 2013-09-02 12:19:42 and read 6265 times.

AY needs to work on it's soft product in Y, reference to catering, on it's long-haul Asia routes. They appear to have different policies around charging for drinks depending on the destination city. It's confusing what passengers can expect. To compete with the ME carriers AY needs one standard offering long-haul; product consistency regardless of the city served.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-09-02 12:40:26 and read 6090 times.

Quoting sailas (Reply 9):
How is the JAL 787 route doing? AY takes of nearly at the same time as JAL? Can they really fill those 2 planes?

Double daily service to NRT now but the number of seats didn't double, JAL 787 has just 186 (42/144) seats, comparing to max 297 on AY. Before AY hoped for more slots in NRT, this codeshare probably was the best deal they got.

This is how JAL promote their Helsinki service/connections: http://www.jal.co.jp/en/helsinki/

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
from a competitive point of view i'm also wondering how Finland's high wage cost can compete with other European countries
Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...g-and-ryanair-excel-on-costs-97635 Not actually that high.

Their labour costs are relatively low, surprised me too when I first read the article.

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
Well LX has 207 seats in theirs if you count the middle seats in business class permanently blocked to reduce the seat count to 200 so that they dont need the 5th FA. LH has 205 and they fly them on routes over four hours long.

Oh yes you are right, I was thinking their existing A321 with 196 seats but the new A321ER can't be that bad then.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: sailas
Posted 2013-09-02 12:52:47 and read 5995 times.

Its good to hear, and hope JAL stays with us for a long time!

I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757??? I always thought CDG was a bleeding route and only feasible when AF shared the AY plane. If those flights really are so overbooked, i guess its only good news, and hopefully AY will order more A321s.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-02 14:42:21 and read 5318 times.

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
> Every day, 7,000 Chinese people are getting on a plane for the first time

That number will probably drop once China's economy tanks, and the population begins to age.

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
> Around half of AY revenue is coming from Asia routes

I have a hunch this may be due to codesharing by JL as well. A friend of mine flew HEL-NRT-TPE once. He said it was very much cheaper than flying direct, and the service was great.
AY has a lot of loyal customers in Japan, many of whom are businesses doing work in western Europe.

I myself wanna get over to HEL sometime. I know a young lass who lives there  

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: GCT64
Posted 2013-09-02 15:23:48 and read 5091 times.

Quoting sailas (Reply 18):

I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757???

I don't think that is correct. I believe BRU is A319s and ERJs and CDG is A320/1s and ERJs. No A340 or B757 that I can see.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-09-02 15:41:07 and read 4985 times.

Quoting spud757 (Reply 16):
AY needs to work on it's soft product in Y, reference to catering, on it's long-haul Asia routes. They appear to have different policies around charging for drinks depending on the destination city.

According to their website only BKK is different from the other Asia routes, free beer/wine with meals only:

"All our meals include free-of-charge non-alcoholic drinks, beer and wine. Alcoholic beverages are available for purchase at all other times."

Other Asia routes:

"Soft drinks, juices, water, beer, and white and red wine are all served free of charge. Other alcoholic beverages are available for purchase."

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 20):
I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757???
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 20):
I don't think that is correct. I believe BRU is A319s and ERJs and CDG is A320/1s and ERJs. No A340 or B757 that I can see.

Yes this summer season they fly A343 to BRU every Thu morning, the reason is the extra cargo capacity needed.
And they have occasionally put 757 on the scheduled Euro routes, the 757's are leaving the fleet though and replaced by A321ER "Sharklet", the first one arriving this week.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: Farzan
Posted 2013-09-02 16:22:56 and read 4779 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
A friend of mine flew HEL-NRT-TPE once. He said it was very much cheaper than flying direct, and the service was great.

Not sure how your "friend" came to that conculsion since there are no direct flights between HEL and TPE?

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-02 17:10:25 and read 4595 times.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 22):
Not sure how your "friend" came to that conculsion since there are no direct flights between HEL and TPE?

Well that was hearsay. Maybe he was looking at different options.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-09-02 22:26:06 and read 3662 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 21):
Yes this summer season they fly A343 to BRU every Thu morning, the reason is the extra cargo capacity needed.
And they have occasionally put 757 on the scheduled Euro routes, the 757's are leaving the fleet though and replaced by A321ER "Sharklet", the first one arriving this week.
Quoting sailas (Reply 18):
I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757??? I always thought CDG was a bleeding route and only feasible when AF shared the AY plane. If those flights really are so overbooked, i guess its only good news, and hopefully AY will order more A321s.
BRU is a hub for Finnair Cargo, thus the need for extra cargo capacity, which was provided by putting a pax version A343 on the route once a week. 757 on scheduled routes has been done before, when ever extra capacity is needed. Usually I have seen it replacing Airbuses to Lapland, but why not to Paris if need is there.

Quoting smbukas (Reply 13):
I think, for the future, Finnair strategy should me more about connecting 2ndary cities in Europe with 2ndary cities in Asia. That's way I suggest they should look more to underserved China cities, because there are many carriers in BOM and CAN.

This has been AY's strategy for the past 10 odd years. Many of the primary cities AY is serving in Asia and Europe AY has been serving for decades. BKK since 1976, NRT since 1983, SIN since 1985, PEK since 1988, Osaka since 1995 to name a few. Same with primary European cities, I wont start listing them all, but CDG since 1953 and LHR since 1954.

AY is now looking for secondary cities in Europe, such as Lyon, Manchester, many cities in Germany to attract pax feed for long haul. Looking for succesful secondary cities in Asia is something every Euopean airline is doing at the moment.

[Edited 2013-09-02 22:33:24]

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: thaiflyer
Posted 2013-09-02 22:57:00 and read 3652 times.

Quoting Farzan (Reply 22):
According to their website only BKK is different from the other Asia routes, free beer/wine with meals only:

"All our meals include free-of-charge non-alcoholic drinks, beer and wine. Alcoholic beverages are available for purchase at all other times."

Other Asia routes:

"Soft drinks, juices, water, beer, and white and red wine are all served free of charge. Other alcoholic beverages are available for purchase."

What is the reasoning behind the difference ?
I don't think that only alcoholics fly to BKK.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: smbukas
Posted 2013-09-02 23:26:28 and read 3512 times.

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 25):
I don't think that only alcoholics fly to BKK.

Yes, maybe to call these passengers alcoholics are a bit too strong, but I am familiar with alcohol consumption of X European airline. Alcohol consumption on a route to BKK is from 3 to 5 times higher then on routes to HKG, PEK, NRT.

So AY decision makes sense, BKK route I think is the most price sensitive and service on board may be more expensive then on other routes.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-09-03 02:04:46 and read 3276 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
I myself wanna get over to HEL sometime. I know a young lass who lives there

When you get here do take some time exploring the cities around the airport  

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2013-09-03 03:17:08 and read 3147 times.

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
Well LX has 207 seats in theirs if you count the middle seats in business class permanently blocked to reduce the seat count to 200 so that they dont need the 5th FA. LH has 205 and they fly them on routes over four hours long.
Quoting HELyes (Reply 7):
Putting 209 seats on the new A321ER doesn't sound awfully comfortable

mmm yes, not much leg room there I guess - though with new slimmer seats it may not be that bad.

BA, perhaps not noted for its generous legroom for Y passengers, only manages to fit in 188 in domestic [all Y] configuration and only around 150 for its mid-haul configured 321s to the eastern med and beyond.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: thaiflyer
Posted 2013-09-03 05:12:33 and read 2941 times.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 27):
Yes, maybe to call these passengers alcoholics are a bit too strong, but I am familiar with alcohol consumption of X European airline. Alcohol consumption on a route to BKK is from 3 to 5 times higher then on routes to HKG, PEK, NRT.

So AY decision makes sense, BKK route I think is the most price sensitive and service on board may be more expensive then on other routes.

I knew that we like our alcohol here in BK but i did not expected that it makes that much difference for the planes flying to Thailand.

Topic: RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network
Username: mdavies06
Posted 2013-09-03 07:08:26 and read 2782 times.

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 29):
Quoting teme82 (Reply 27):
Yes, maybe to call these passengers alcoholics are a bit too strong, but I am familiar with alcohol consumption of X European airline. Alcohol consumption on a route to BKK is from 3 to 5 times higher then on routes to HKG, PEK, NRT.

So AY decision makes sense, BKK route I think is the most price sensitive and service on board may be more expensive then on other routes.

I knew that we like our alcohol here in BK but i did not expected that it makes that much difference for the planes flying to Thailand.

Perhaps this is because most pax flying Europe - BKK are European rather than Asian? Just a guess.


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