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Topic: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2013-09-05 14:45:25 and read 12293 times.

Kind of a strange story. Apparently a Vietnam vet was traveling with his service dog out of Atlanta on US. The airline wanted the dog at his feet, but the dog was sitting in a seat. He got a little heated and I think that is what eventually lead to his removal from the flight. Now I don't know the airline policy on service dogs. But does it really matter if the dog is in a seat or on the floor as long as the seat was empty? The gentleman could have handled the situation better for sure. What do you think?
http://www.wfsb.com/story/23351668/v...teran-kicked-off-us-airways-flight
Pat

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: itrade
Posted 2013-09-05 14:52:00 and read 12269 times.

US is still reeling from the "service pig" that it had to deal with about 10 or 12 years ago.

[Edited 2013-09-05 14:52:14]

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-09-05 15:08:28 and read 12150 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 1):
US is still reeling from the "service pig" that it had to deal with about 10 or 12 years ago.

Don't know what that has t do with anything, but okay....

The man definitely could have handled the situatio better, but I'm not sure what happened prior to the camer being turned on. You never know how the crew may have handled it to anger the man. I'm not making excuses for anybody, just looing at this objetively.

By the way, this was a one-class aircraft it appears. Does US Airways fly CRJ-200s into AT because I can't find any on the schedule.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-09-05 15:09:39 and read 12144 times.

Just a little heated? I think somebody forgot to take their chill pill that morning. Going only on what I saw and heard, I'd say that the dog should be on the floor. Yelling things will sink your case just about every time.

Also, this news link http://www.azfamily.com/news/Veteran...service-dog-dispute-222453611.html says it was a PHX-ELP flight operated by SkyWest.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: itrade
Posted 2013-09-05 15:11:31 and read 12128 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):
Don't know what that has t do with anything, but okay....

US had an unfortunate incident a number of years ago involving another service animal - a 300 lb pig to be precise.

There was extended debate over whether pigs should fly; the decision was made to allow the pig to fly. That was a decision that US wound up very much regretting.

Thus, the relationship between service animals and US brings back memories of days past....

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-09-05 15:21:02 and read 12055 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 4):
US had an unfortunate incident a number of years ago involving another service animal - a 300 lb pig to be precise.

It is one of the funniest incidents I have read about. US let a 300lb pig fly in First Class.


Dan  

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: VC10BOAC
Posted 2013-09-05 15:24:22 and read 12025 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
It is one of the funniest incidents I have read about. US let a 300lb pig fly in First Class.

I think you made that story up. I'll believe it when pigs fly  

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: itrade
Posted 2013-09-05 15:26:23 and read 12011 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
It is one of the funniest incidents I have read about. US let a 300lb pig fly in First Class.

Yah, I forgot about that detail. Yes, it was in first class.....

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: azstar
Posted 2013-09-05 15:26:50 and read 12014 times.

U S Airways contract of carriage, as most other airlines, require large service animals to remain on the floor in front of the passengers seat. It is probably not safe for the dog to remain in a seat since it can't be strapped in properly for take off and landing. In this situation, it appears U S Airways was correct and the passenger was completely unreasonable, IMO.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-09-05 15:33:25 and read 11946 times.

Service animals must remain under the seat for taxi, takeoff and landing. They are not strapped in, and are as dangerous as any other carry on item in the event of severe turbulence or accident.

I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people. Having a dog under the seat is compliant with ADA guidelines.

That doesn’t look like a pleasant situation for anyone. The Flight Attendant did a good job handling the situation with composure.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-09-05 15:41:51 and read 11904 times.

Quoting VC10BOAC (Reply 6):
I think you made that story up. I'll believe it when pigs fly

There's a paradox there!  
Quoting itrade (Reply 7):
Yah, I forgot about that detail.

I think US rather wanted to do that too  


Dan  

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-09-05 16:00:27 and read 11801 times.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):

That doesn’t look like a pleasant situation for anyone. The Flight Attendant did a good job handling the situation with composure.

The red shirt in the video was the CRO. They have pretty good training in dealing with situations like these.

Also, US paid for his hotel that night and he flew out the next morning.


As a personal opinion, I do find it highly offensive that he tried to use the military trump card to be "excused" from any disruptive behavior or rule violations.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-09-05 16:40:28 and read 11658 times.

The Service Animal situation is my greatest peeve about flying in the US. Between arrogant disabled people who think that the world should revolve around them because they have a service animal to people who fake having service animals because they are too cheap to pay for a cabin pets (exactly what service does your Poodle perform for you?), I feel this section of the ACAA needs to be rewritten and have clearer certification and behvaiour guidelines and enact harsh penalties for the fake service animal people (can you tell I really hate them!)

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: deltacto
Posted 2013-09-05 16:47:44 and read 11619 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 4):
US had an unfortunate incident a number of years ago involving another service animal - a 300 lb pig to be precise.
When Pigs Fly, They Fly US Airways In First Class! (by SINGH4US Oct 30 2000 in Civil Aviation)

When Pigs Fly....they Go First Class (by LoneStarMike Oct 27 2000 in Civil Aviation)


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95217&page=1

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-09-05 16:52:27 and read 11585 times.

At my airline the dog has to go on the floor. Although there was an incident were one crew made the dog sit on the seat, to which the disabled person got upset...

As for that pig story...do I even want to read it?!   

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: flymia
Posted 2013-09-05 16:59:26 and read 11551 times.

There is a classmate of mine in law school who I don't know how got her dog certified as a "service animal" for "emotional support" or something like this. She has no obvious problems, she loves her dog and takes it all over but almost never has it at school. Closer friends of her know she does not have a problem and just does this so she can take the dog to stadiums and on flights etc.. Must be nice.

I am in no way saying this man abuses the system. He has a disability. All I am saying are there are people abusing this system and no matter who they are they at least need to follow the rules.

US/skywest made the right move here.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: denverdanny
Posted 2013-09-05 17:09:27 and read 11501 times.

The other issue is his use of foul language. Watching the video, there are little kids. He totally disregarded that. You can see a parent get up in the video to take their kid away, probably so the kid doesn't get upset and start crying, or hear the foul language. He was completely unreasonable. But, it does seem from the beginning of the video that he may not have understood the issue. I hope it was explained he COULD have his dog, just that his dog had to be on the floor. Someone should have clarified and reiterated that to him until he got it, and I hope they did. He made things worse too by not getting up and leaving. He wanted a scene.

If I had been there as a passenger, I would have explained things to him and called him out. My parents were like this growing up, and I had to deal with stuff like this. I'm not afraid of him. Sometimes you just have to get through to them.

[Edited 2013-09-05 17:12:08]

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-09-05 17:35:45 and read 11406 times.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 3):
Also, this news link http://www.azfamily.com/news/Veteran...service-dog-dispute-222453611.html says it was a PHX-ELP flight operated by SkyWest.

That makes much more sense.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):
I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people. Having a dog under the seat is compliant with ADA guidelines.

Any sorriness I felt for the man went out the window when he started yelling profanity and being very non-compliant with the crew. Also, the personal attack against the pilot didn't help much either.

[Edited 2013-09-05 17:39:53]

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-05 18:32:00 and read 11214 times.

Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
U S Airways contract of carriage, as most other airlines, require large service animals to remain on the floor in front of the passengers seat. It is probably not safe for the dog to remain in a seat since it can't be strapped in properly for take off and landing. In this situation, it appears U S Airways was correct and the passenger was completely unreasonable, IMO.

Could you point that part of their C of C for me? http://www.usairways.com/en-US/resou...boutus/US_contract_of_carriage.pdf

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):
I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people.

Where is that in the FAA rules? http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf

The thing about seat belts poor reasoning since lap children are still allowed.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: Copter808
Posted 2013-09-05 19:14:17 and read 11098 times.

Some questions and observations...

Do we know that it was a service animal? Or do we just assume that from the actor's behavior and whatever he may have told the staff.

The CRO did a great job and never raised his voice. Something all too rare in todays society.

The cockpit crew would likely have done better to stay out of sight of the actor. Their body language certainly didn't help the matter.

I don't know if this was intentional or just coincidental, but there was a "break in contact" for several minutes between the actor and staff. Although it didn't seem to help in this case, it often serves to calm the situation down by allowing the actor to comply without appearing to "back down". Any possible empathy I may have had for the actor went out the door at this point! Apparently he felt he had to continue the confrontation.

And lastly... The dog behaved very well.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: LAXtoATL
Posted 2013-09-05 19:22:35 and read 11060 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
There is a classmate of mine in law school who I don't know how got her dog certified as a "service animal" for "emotional support" or something like this.

Although often confused, there is a difference between a 'service animal' and an 'emotional support animal'.
A service animal is a trained animal that provides a specific duty (ie guide dog for blind, seizure alert, etc).
A service animal earns its status because of the animal.
An emotional support animal is a pet. This animal only has a designated status because of the owner's status. A medical professional determines that a person can function normally in society with the use of a companion pet where they couldn't without.

Clearly, there is a lot of abuse with 'emotional support animals'. So much so that there is now a registry to get 'service animal' credentials for your emotional support animal. Which of course is bogus as by definition an emotional support animal is not a service animal. Ive seen a pax get irate because they presented their emotional support animal as a service animal. When asked 'what service does the animal provide', they went semi-ballistic saying 'you aren't allowed to ask me that'. Which she would have been correct if she presented the animal as an emotional support animal as you are not allowed to ask questions as long as a person has the appropriate medical documentation. This is a medical privacy issue. However, a dog has no right to privacy and if it is a service animal it is very appropriate to ask what service the animal provides to determine if it is actually a 'service animal'. In this case it was not a service animal and the rep had every right to make that determination (since it was of course not a service animal - kind of hard to provide a service when you are 8 pounds and inside a purse)

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: Caspian27
Posted 2013-09-05 21:22:52 and read 10837 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 18):
Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
U S Airways contract of carriage, as most other airlines, require large service animals to remain on the floor in front of the passengers seat. It is probably not safe for the dog to remain in a seat since it can't be strapped in properly for take off and landing. In this situation, it appears U S Airways was correct and the passenger was completely unreasonable, IMO.

Could you point that part of their C of C for me? http://www.usairways.com/en-US/resou...boutus/US_contract_of_carriage.pdf

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):
I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people.

Where is that in the FAA rules? http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf

The thing about seat belts poor reasoning since lap children are still allowed.

SkyWest procedures which are FAA approved, clearly state that service animals cannot occupy a pax seat. The FA had no choice but to ask the pax to put the dog on the floor and when he wouldn't, the pilots had no choice but to escalate the situation. This guy let his emotions get the best of him. There was absolutely no excuse for that kind of language with children around.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-09-05 21:33:55 and read 10795 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 18):
Where is that in the FAA rules? http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules...t.pdf

The SOP on how to comply with 382.55 is FAA approved and the operator must follow it.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-09-05 21:48:32 and read 10745 times.

How do you fit a "service animal" in the already cramped area which is usually completely filled by legs and feet?  

AT

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-09-05 21:50:12 and read 10733 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 1):
US is still reeling from the "service pig" that it had to deal with about 10 or 12 years ago.

You beat me to it... anyone who read that story will never forget it!

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 12):
I feel this section of the ACAA needs to be rewritten and have clearer certification and behvaiour guidelines and enact harsh penalties for the fake service animal people (can you tell I really hate them!)

Recently there were some laws passed to make it harder to have your "service dog" with you while traveling. From what I understand a letter from a doctor that you mail in to get your service dog card no longer works. You now have to have that letter from a qualified mental health worker as well as having the dog tested to make sure he can perform his "service" duties. Then and only then do you get the service dog card.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 20):
So much so that there is now a registry to get 'service animal' credentials for your emotional support animal.

Thankfully.

Maybe the agent came on board just to ask the guy to have his dog lay on the floor. But when the guy started yelling at the agent it was immediately "game over". He was lucky, they could have had the TSA come oboard, handcuff him and drag him along the floor and up the jetway while kicking his dog behind him. And if his dog truly was a trained service dog, it would have known to lay on the floor.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: malaysia
Posted 2013-09-05 22:06:02 and read 11263 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
The red shirt in the video was the CRO. They have pretty good training in dealing with situations like these.

I am a CRO and a CRO at another station made an assumption that I had a disability while I was off duty and flying as a passenger and I had to correct that CRO since I was management level vs front-line and that CRO got reprimanded to avoid further incidents.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-05 22:33:06 and read 11096 times.

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 21):
SkyWest procedures which are FAA approved, clearly state that service animals cannot occupy a pax seat. The FA had no choice but to ask the pax to put the dog on the floor and when he wouldn't, the pilots had no choice but to escalate the situation. This guy let his emotions get the best of him. There was absolutely no excuse for that kind of language with children around.

Yup, if the OpSpecs do say that then they must be complied with and carry the full force of 14CFR but that does not make it an FAA rule as those don't vary by airline. Nor is it in the C of C. Agreed 100% with you though the guy was a total jackass and shouldn't have been allowed to fly.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 22):
The SOP on how to comply with 382.55 is FAA approved and the operator must follow it.

Then say that, not that it is an FAA rule.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: hh65man
Posted 2013-09-06 00:55:56 and read 10562 times.

Poor fella (pooch), imagine having to put up with that for the rest of your life.  

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: gregarious119
Posted 2013-09-06 06:47:41 and read 8433 times.

Quoting hh65man (Reply 27):
Poor fella (pooch), imagine having to put up with that for the rest of your life.  

That was my thought...gotta love a good, loyal retriever. Still wagging his tail even in the face of dealing with this guy for the rest of his life.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: IADCA
Posted 2013-09-06 09:54:41 and read 6876 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
As a personal opinion, I do find it highly offensive that he tried to use the military trump card to be "excused" from any disruptive behavior or rule violations.

This exactly. It's embarrassing and just makes him seem totally unreasonable. It's like John Goodman's character in The Big Lebowski constantly trying to turn everything into an attack on his rights and privileges earned in Vietnam. By no means do all (or even most) vets behave like this, but it's really ugly when a few do. Especially when he's yelling about the ADA, which doesn't apply on commercial airlines (yes yes, ACAA, but if you're going to yell at people about the law, you better get it right).

Quoting malaysia (Reply 25):
I am a CRO and a CRO at another station made an assumption that I had a disability while I was off duty and flying as a passenger and I had to correct that CRO since I was management level vs front-line and that CRO got reprimanded to avoid further incidents.

1) This appears to have nothing to do with anything here (since this guy was openly claiming/admitting to being 100% disabled), and 2) I'd be pretty angry with you if I were that person that you seem to have gone out of your way to get into trouble.

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 19):
The CRO did a great job and never raised his voice. Something all too rare in todays society.

Absolutely. This guy's behavior was absurd.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-09-06 10:28:21 and read 6556 times.

it's unfortunate that the airline rewarded his bad behavior by providing a hotel and then allowing him to travel the next day. if someone behaves like that they don't deserve to be allowed to fly.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-09-06 10:59:29 and read 6300 times.

The carrier has the right to designate where persons with service animals can sit and have the right to insist that the animal be seated on the floor directly at the feet of the passenger. The F/A handled it politely (you lose my attention when you turn foul mouthed) and other passengers should not have had to listen to that. The gentleman was obviously extremely distressed and these situations can quickly escalate into violence. The trick here is to talk them down gently (f/a made a great try at that) but the FARS DO state that passengers must obey all instructions given by a crew member. His fight was over the minute he refused to comply. My instinct here was that the veteran had some mental issues going on as well which fed his anger.

I have never had an issue with a passenger with a service or comfort animal. They are cheerfully compliant. If you are going to have a problem it is with a person carrying a pet in the cabin. Sometimes we have to tell them numerous times that little Fluffy must remain in their carrier for the entire flight.

I had one disabled vet that had a service dog--really great guy--however the man seated two rows behind him had a full-blown s**tfit about the animal being onboard. We wound up having HIM removed.

For a little light reading (3-4,000 pages) Google FAA Part 121 FAR's.

Never a dull day in the airline industry!

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: PROSA
Posted 2013-09-06 11:05:36 and read 6237 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):
The man definitely could have handled the situation better, but I'm not sure what happened prior to the camera being turned on.

That is an excellent point. Seeing a video of only part of an incident may lead to very misleading conclusions. To use a non-aviation example, this had very dire consequences in the Rodney King case. Everyone saw the shocking video in which the police beat King as he lay helplessly on the ground. The thing is, it was only part of a longer video. The first part of the video, very rarely seen in those largely pre-Internet days, showed the distinctly non-helpless King violently resisting arrest. While it still didn't justify the beating, it made the beating seem perhaps a bit less outrageous than everyone thought.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-06 11:39:17 and read 6021 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 31):
FARS DO state that passengers must obey all instructions given by a crew member.

Oh really?

Sec. 121.571 — Briefing passengers before takeoff.
(a) Each certificate holder operating a passenger-carrying airplane shall insure that all passengers are orally briefed by the appropriate crewmember as follows:

(1) Before each takeoff, on each of the following:

(i) Smoking. Each passenger shall be briefed on when, where, and under what conditions smoking is prohibited including, but not limited to, any applicable requirements of part 252 of this title). This briefing shall include a statement that the Federal Aviation Regulations require passenger compliance with the lighted passenger information signs, posted placards, areas designated for safety purposes as no smoking areas, and crewmember instructions with regard to these items. The briefing shall also include a statement that Federal law prohibits tampering with, disabling, or destroying any smoke detector in an airplane lavatory; smoking in lavatories; and, when applicable, smoking in passenger compartments.

(ii) The location of emergency exits.

(iii) The use of safety belts, including instructions on how to fasten and unfasten the safety belts. Each passenger shall be briefed on when, where, and under what conditions the safety belt must be fastened about that passenger. This briefing shall include a statement that the Federal Aviation Regulations require passenger compliance with lighted passenger information signs and crewmember instructions concerning the use of safety belts.

(iv) The location and use of any required emergency flotation means.

(v) On operations that do not use a flight attendant, the following additional information:

(A) The placement of seat backs in an upright position before takeoff and landing.

(B) Location of survival equipment.

(C) If the flight involves operations above 12,000 MSL, the normal and emergency use of oxygen.

(D) Location and operation of fire extinguisher.

(2) After each takeoff, immediately before or immediately after turning the seat belt sign off, an announcement shall be made that passengers should keep their seat belts fastened, while seated, even when the seat belt sign is off.

(3) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4) of this section, before each takeoff a required crewmember assigned to the flight shall conduct an individual briefing of each person who may need the assistance of another person to move expeditiously to an exit in the event of an emergency. In the briefing the required crewmember shall—

(i) Brief the person and his attendant, if any, on the routes to each appropriate exit and on the most appropriate time to begin moving to an exit in the event of an emergency; and

(ii) Inquire of the person and his attendant, if any, as to the most appropriate manner of assisting the person so as to prevent pain and further injury.

(4) The requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section do not apply to a person who has been given a briefing before a previous leg of a flight in the same aircraft when the crewmembers on duty have been advised as to the most appropriate manner of assisting the person so as to prevent pain and further injury.

(b) Each certificate holder must carry on each passenger-carrying airplane, in convenient locations for use of each passenger, printed cards supplementing the oral briefing. Each card must contain information pertinent only to the type and model of airplane used for that flight, including—

(1) Diagrams of, and methods of operating, the emergency exits;

(2) Other instructions necessary for use of emergency equipment; and

(3) No later than June 12, 2005, for Domestic and Flag scheduled passenger-carrying flights, the sentence, “Final assembly of this airplane was completed in [INSERT NAME OF COUNTRY].”

(c) The certificate holder shall describe in its manual the procedure to be followed in the briefing required by paragraph (a) of this section.


> you might be talking about 121.580 but that still wouldn't mandate compliance with all instructions given by a crew member.

[Edited 2013-09-06 11:44:40]

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-09-06 11:41:50 and read 6012 times.

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 19):
Do we know that it was a service animal?

It was a service animal, not an emotional support animal.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 24):
they could have had the TSA come oboard, handcuff him

LOL. TSA doesn't arrest people (thank God). FWIW, they had the police come on and escort him out. Had he refused, he would have been put in cuffs.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 30):
it's unfortunate that the airline rewarded his bad behavior by providing a hotel and then allowing him to travel the next day. if someone behaves like that they don't deserve to be allowed to fly.

"Airline denies boarding to disabled veteran and leaves him to fend for himself".

As it is, this not-uncommon event made the national news, which implies that US did something wrong. In fact, they did everything right, and then some. The only reason this story has died so quickly is because there was no reason to bash the airline; people who saw the video pretty much agreed that the guy was out of line. No controversy, no story.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: rcair1
Posted 2013-09-06 12:28:26 and read 5617 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
There is a classmate of mine in law school who I don't know how got her dog certified as a "service animal" for "emotional support" or something like this. She has no obvious problems, she loves her dog and takes it all over but almost never has it at school. Closer friends of her know she does not have a problem and just does this so she can take the dog to stadiums and on flights etc.. Must be nice
Quoting Copter808 (Reply 19):
Do we know that it was a service animal?

There is not official service dog registry that is government recognized. What there is are organizations such as NSAR (National Service Animal Registry) and Service Dog Registry of America. These organizations will take information from you and create "documentation" for you to have. It is just a fancy ID system.

My son has MS - he could easily register is dog with the systems - just pick "MS" as the service. There is no verification that the dog is anything but a pet (which is true in his case).

Abuse of the service dog ADA requirements is becoming common because of the issues with shipping in cargo (cost/safety/reliability) and the large fees charged for in-cabin pets. Probably the biggest offenders are people who show or do performance with their dogs. (Which we do).

Concrete example. My wife showed one of our dogs in the Ekanuba national in Orlando last year. She flew there and back with the dog as an in-cabin pet - for which we paid $250 extra.

On her flight back - there were 4 other dogs (not counting hers). None were small enough to meet "in cabin" pet requirements. All wore prominent "Service Dog" vests. She recognized all of them (the people) from the show. They were even wearing their Eukanuba "bling". One of the dogs was poorly mannered, scared to death and growled whenever somebody went by - NOT a proper behaviour for a service dog. I feel for the poor sucker that had to sit in that row with him/her.

However, most airlines will not challenge this - and even if they do - the person can have one of the "registries" with ID's and such and the airline would be foolish to risk it.

-Bob

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-09-06 12:59:49 and read 5343 times.

Then if what you say is true, how did this incident happen in the first place?


QUALIFYING AS A SERVICE ANIMAL: An animal that is providing a service to a disabled customer will be allowed and should not be charged a fee. The business or transportation company will look for physical indicators on the animal including harnesses, vests, capes or backpacks. The markings on these items should identify the animal as a service animal.

They will seek verbal assurances from the customer and ask questions such as:. "Is this your pet?" or "What tasks or functions does this animal perform for you?" or "What has it been trained to do?" If you can provide a reasonable explanation of how the animal was trained or how it performs the function for which it is being used it will generally be accepted however, you may be asked for certification papers verifying the training the animal has received.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
It was a service animal, not an emotional support animal.

How do you know this for sure? A lot of people call their emotional support dogs "Service Dogs". I say if it was a real service dog it would have already been trained to lay under the seat.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-09-06 13:21:41 and read 5169 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 36):
How do you know this for sure? A lot of people call their emotional support dogs "Service Dogs". I say if it was a real service dog it would have already been trained to lay under the seat.

Do we even know what type of ailment the man was dealing with? He kept saying he was fully disabled, but he was able to walk, hear, and seemingly, he could see. The dog could have been for a more complex reason, though, such as the dogs that can sense when it's owner has high blood sugar for those with diabetes.

As you said, the man never stated what his disability was, so it could have been an emotional support dog that he just referred to as a service animal. Is it possible that he has a form of PTSD that is spurred from confrontations such as this, or something similar? There is a very real possibility that his lashing out at the CRO and the crew might have been caused by an emotional issue that he picked up from being at war.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: eal46859
Posted 2013-09-06 14:13:31 and read 4808 times.

The Service Dog Official Guidelines clearly say that the Guide/Service dog is to be on the floor at all times and that at take off, the dog should be facing the patient with the dog's back towards the seat in front with his head on the lap of the owner if the owner needs the comfort or the dog should be curled up on the floor. Dogs are not to fly in seats.. there is not an adequate way to protect them from harm during severe turbulence or other nearby passengers or crew .

Golden Retrievers are great dogs..I have one and I let him on the couch all the time.. it's at my house ..
but how would you like to be the next passenger to sit on the seat the dog was on on the next flight in a nice suit or dress and get dog hair or other dog debris... all over your clothes.

The man is a bully..... and rude without regard for the other passengers.. he deserved to be put off that flight... US should not have paid for his hotel either...and for that matter they should have refunded his ticket and let another carrier , such as Greyhound...deal with him...

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: N908AW
Posted 2013-09-06 14:17:51 and read 4776 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 33):
Oh really?

Well, 121.571(a)(1)(i) refers to crewmember instructions and their compliance with posted placards (91.9) & lighted information signs...

121.577 says passengers must comply with crewmember instructions relating to food/beverage stowage before takeoff...
121.585(c) says passengers must comply with crewmember instructions relating to exit row requirements...
121.589(e) says passengers must comply with crewmember instructions relating to carry-on baggage requirements...
And throughout 14 CFR 121 passengers must comply with company manuals and procedures, because that is what the FAA holds the certificate holder to.

But yes, other than that it doesn't say anything about passenger compliance with crewmember instructions. That would be in the Contract of Carriage.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-06 14:27:01 and read 4690 times.

Quoting N908AW (Reply 39):
And throughout 14 CFR 121 passengers must comply with company manuals and procedures, because that is what the FAA holds the certificate holder to.

Ok but that still doesn't make it an FAR. In fact those FARs you cited specifically limit those items which passengers are required to comply with crew member instructions.

Quoting N908AW (Reply 39):

But yes, other than that it doesn't say anything about passenger compliance with crewmember instructions. That would be in the Contract of Carriage.

Nope not there either.

[Edited 2013-09-06 14:31:51]

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: n92r03
Posted 2013-09-06 14:51:58 and read 4493 times.

As an American, I thank him for his service to our country.

That being said, it does not absolve him from acting like a normal human being. No need to raise his voice, use profanity and lastly pull the "Veteran card". I feel bad for him, but I feel worse for the pax sitting close by.

Also, he says he is 100% disabled. I know a few disabled people who would disagree with him.

Glad he was accommodated for the night and a flight the next day.

[Edited 2013-09-06 14:53:37]

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: IADCA
Posted 2013-09-06 15:14:26 and read 4416 times.

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 41):
Also, he says he is 100% disabled. I know a few disabled people who would disagree with him.

He was probably quoting his disability rating as given by the VA. There are specific criteria for that used for the determination of certain benefits. 100% disability doesn't necessarily equate to being totally unable to function. You can even get to 100% by combining multiple smaller issues (although they won't let you go over 100%, those government cheapskates!).

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: rcair1
Posted 2013-09-06 16:00:07 and read 4319 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 36):
A lot of people call their emotional support dogs "Service Dogs"

Emotional support animals do receive some protection, just not as much as physical service dogs.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 36):
Then if what you say is true, how did this incident happen in the first place?

I'm not sure if you are asking me about the comments about show dogs... or somebody else about the incident the string refers to...

But... if you are referring to as the show dog issue...

Quoting type-rated (Reply 36):
QUALIFYING AS A SERVICE ANIMAL: An animal that is providing a service to a disabled customer will be allowed and should not be charged a fee. The business or transportation company will look for physical indicators on the animal including harnesses, vests, capes or backpacks. The markings on these items should identify the animal as a service animal.

All of this stuff can be bought by anybody.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 36):
They will seek verbal assurances from the customer and ask questions such as:.

If somebody is doing this to game the system - get free transport for their dog to/from shows - they will answer the questions 'appropriately'. They know that the airline is very limited in what they can ask for medical privacy reasons.

Is it possible that the 4 dogs on the plane happened to be BOTH service dogs and show dogs - ah yeah - in theory. In practice, very unlikely. Based on observed behaviours - at least one of those dogs did not exhibit the behaviours that are expected of a real service dog.

And no - we've never gamed the system and we won't. Honestly, neither my wife nor I could call a Scottish Terrier a service dog with a straight face..... If you know Scotties, you know what I mean. It is more like we are service humans....

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-09-07 09:15:21 and read 3940 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
TSA doesn't arrest people (thank God).

Not yet but the mission creep continues unchecked and there are those who would welcome them getting LEO status.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
The only reason this story has died so quickly is because there was no reason to bash the airline; people who saw the video pretty much agreed that the guy was out of line. No controversy, no story.

Can't agree more. I'm always glad that cameras have become so common now that a lot of these events are captured. Without video this story would have been slanted that US Airways/Skywest disriminates against vets. Most of us would probably believe that too. For example I've never been TSA's number one fan. They do have an important job but they take things to ludicrous extremes and are off airport more and more these days. It is to easy to believe almost anything bad about them no matter how outrageous because to many outrageous things about them have proven to be true. However I always applauded TSA for releasing video when travellers made false claims against them. Unfortunately that policy seems to have stopped in recent years and third party videos often hurt TSA's credibility as well. Bottom line though the cameras are getting smaller, cheaper, and very common. Abuse your position of power or throw a temper tantrum in a public place and you might be the next internet viral video.

Topic: RE: US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog
Username: flydeltajets
Posted 2013-09-07 19:43:35 and read 3638 times.

According to the US contract of carriage. The animal may occupy the SAME seat as the passenger.


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