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Topic: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: MSJYOP28Apilot
Posted 2013-09-09 08:05:00 and read 13999 times.

Recently, there has been talk in MEM about demolishing terminal buildings and mothballing others due to the massive cuts there by Delta. Other airports have large parts of their airport terminals empty such as PIT/STL/CVG.

For airports like PIT/STL/CVG that are former hubs and dont have a huge cargo presence like MEM does, could we possibly see permanent runway closures?

STL has 4 runways including one, 11/29, that rarely gets used. Now that the airport is no longer a legacy hub and unlikely to ever be one for the foreseeable future, is it more cost effective to abandon one or two of the runways in order to save the cost of maintaining runways that arent needed or rarely used? Same question can be asked of PIT and CVG.

You could possibly add BNA to the list. They have 3 parallel runways and one crosswind. While all three parallels get used, the airport volume is never anywhere near the available capacity. It could have two parallels and you wouldnt see any delays or difference as a result. BNA is a growing area but even it is kind of wasteful as an airport given how overbuilt it is for the size of its current operation.

At GSO, they built a second parallel runway in anticipation of the Fedex hub. This hub hasnt yet materialized and the airport isnt that busy of an airport. If Fedex completely abandons the idea of a GSO hub, could we see the airport close the crosswind runway and use it possibly as a taxiway?

At a place like CVG that is aiming to get more LCC service, could permanently closing runways lower costs at the airport and possibly help to make it more attractive to LCCs?

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: gsoflyer
Posted 2013-09-09 09:39:30 and read 13643 times.

GSO won't close the crosswind runway, they use it a ton in certain weather conditions. The new runway is hardly ever used. I think out of all my flights, we've used it once. It just takes so long to taxi in and out from.

What amazes me at GSO was building onto the North Terminal when almost all the traffic could be handled from existing gates and less. Heck, they dealt with a Continental hub with less space than what they have no for 48 commercial flights per day.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: kpitrrat
Posted 2013-09-09 09:50:24 and read 13582 times.

I dont see PIT closing any of its 4 runways any time soon. All the runways get frequent use IMO. But more importantly, I think they will remain open as long as the ANG Refueling Wing is still on the premises. They often use a runway for training purposes.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: BoeingMerica
Posted 2013-09-09 09:53:17 and read 13552 times.

CVG could stand to close or mothball some facilities, I believe they closed Concourse A in 2010? Regardless I do not believe they will take further steps. As a former resident of Southwest Ohio they are in, although not as great nowadays, a state of denial. I think a few of the leaders believe one day it will all come back and will continue to pay to upkeep the current airport size.

When it comes to actual pavement infrastructure, they wouldn't consider closing runways. There is still plenty of early morning cargo ops. However, they are clearly way below max capacity, and won't be returning back to 2000 traffic anytime soon.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: YQBexYHZBGM
Posted 2013-09-09 10:07:27 and read 13429 times.

There are solutions other than closing runways or demolishing terminals, such as converting surplus terminal space to non-revenue functions (office space, cleaning / maintenance, supplies and storage) for the airport, airlines or the municipality. Unless alternative uses can be found, it's important to save on heating and air conditioning costs, as well as maintenance, in the unused portion. When SYR lost its hub status, they simply walled off the ends of the concourses (and presumably cut off the HVAC system). Demolition is only the preferable option when the terminals are are old, have leaky roofs, or are costly to heat and cool, or if removing them would simplify aircraft movements.

As far as LCCs are concerned, in addition to airport fees, the main driver will be the market for service to the LCCs' limited number of destinations (Myrtle Beach, Florida, the Phoenix area or Las Vegas). If CVG or any airport under consideration has adequate demand for air service, but not necessarily in the point-to-point vacation travel market to these particular destinations, other carriers that offer a broader range of destinations are a better bet, albeit at higher cost.

Al
YQBexYHZBGM

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-09-09 10:30:57 and read 13286 times.

STL could probably sell the land for runway 11/29 and earn a reasonable amount of money. The runway is a bit detached from the other 3, although noise from the other runways might make the land less valuable.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-09-09 10:47:56 and read 13207 times.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 4):
There are solutions other than closing runways or demolishing terminals, such as converting surplus terminal space to non-revenue functions (office space, cleaning / maintenance, supplies and storage) for the airport, airlines or the municipality.

   BNA turned part of Concourse D in to a USO, which I understand is pretty nice.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 5):
STL could probably sell the land for runway 11/29 and earn a reasonable amount of money. The runway is a bit detached from the other 3, although noise from the other runways might make the land less valuable.

11/29 is semi-useful for airlines operating at Concourse A on a west flow (departures) and on east flow (arrivals). It cuts taxi time down quite a bit.

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Thread starter):
You could possibly add BNA to the list. They have 3 parallel runways and one crosswind. While all three parallels get used, the airport volume is never anywhere near the available capacity. It could have two parallels and you wouldnt see any delays or difference as a result.

I have used all four runways at BNA in the past month. It may be more capacity than they need, but they use it.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-09-09 10:50:29 and read 13182 times.

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Thread starter):
For airports like PIT/STL/CVG that are former hubs and dont have a huge cargo presence like MEM does, could we possibly see permanent runway closures?

It is not that easy to close runways. Nearly all commercial runways in the USA were subsidized by the FAA so they are not allowed to simply close the runway and sell off the land. It is possible but the savings would be negated by the refund to the FAA. Terminals however can be mothballed or demolished, which may yield a cost savings.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: itrade
Posted 2013-09-09 11:05:14 and read 13096 times.

DAY and BWI have walled up concourses. Not sure what they did in PIT.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-09-09 11:08:34 and read 13061 times.

Quoting BoeingMerica (Reply 3):

CVG could stand to close or mothball some facilities, I believe they closed Concourse A in 2010?

CVG Concourse A was renovated and is again being used as of 2012, when Terminal 2 closed. Terminal 1 was recently reopened for charters, and continued to serve as the CVG administration building even after the initial closure for pax service.

Frankly, I could see Terminal 2 being bulldozed soon and T3 Concourse C being demolished shortly afterward. T3C was built for 50-seat RJs and is outmoded, plus CVG has plenty of extra gates on both Concourses A and B. And the unused gates on A could actually fit a sizable WN operation should they come to CVG (though they're currently happy serving Cincinnati through DAY, CMH, IND, and SDF, just look at F9's move from DAY).

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-09-09 11:20:07 and read 12984 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 8):
DAY and BWI have walled up concourses. Not sure what they did in PIT.

PIT has walled-up concourses as well, and DAY plans to wall up Concourse A soon in addition to Concourse D, leaving it with just B and C.

But given BWI's growth as of late for WN, I don't think that empty concourse there will stay walled-up for long.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: itrade
Posted 2013-09-09 11:28:50 and read 12930 times.

Does "E" at PIT still exist?

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: dabpit
Posted 2013-09-09 12:04:23 and read 12781 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):
PIT has walled-up concourses as well

Concourse A & B are walled off at the end.

Quoting itrade (Reply 11):
Does "E" at PIT still exist?

The airport authority demolished part of E and the area around the former concourse is used for employee parking and the concourse itself is an alternative security check-point.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2013-09-09 12:35:11 and read 12593 times.

Quote:
For airports like PIT/STL/CVG that are former hubs and dont have a huge cargo presence like MEM does, could we possibly see permanent runway closures?


Well CVG is still a Delta hub, it hasn't been fully or officially dehubbed...yet. Although some members on here have indicated DL has stated CVG is currently profitable, who knows what could happen long term. CVG also actually is a major cargo hub, granted nowhere near the scale of MEM, but it's still DHL's North American hub with lots of heavies departing daily, so ironically the new runway CVG built for DL is actually getting some use.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: ChrisInBrasil
Posted 2013-09-09 12:38:51 and read 12562 times.

How many hub cities still exist and what airlines serve them? And yes this is speculation, but what city is next?

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-09-09 12:53:42 and read 12478 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):
But given BWI's growth as of late for WN, I don't think that empty concourse there will stay walled-up for long.

If you're talking about the "down-low" extension to D concourse, two gates are still used for USAir Express. Some of the offices down there are also used. And part of the day, the Airport Authority Police play with their dogs down there.

I don't want to say 'train' their dogs since most of those dogs behave like puppies.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-09-09 15:21:14 and read 11491 times.

Quoting ChrisInBrasil (Reply 14):

How many hub cities still exist and what airlines serve them?

Dozens. All of the top 50 qualify, there are a lot of hubs out there... :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's...iest_airports_by_passenger_traffic

Quoting ChrisInBrasil (Reply 14):
but what city is next?

The only merger in process is US/AA (temporarily blocked). That merger could put CLT at some risk. At that point, I see the US hubs as being consolidated.

We're more in an era of expanding hubs. For example, MAA, BLR, or HYD should eventually become a large hub. Which? I don't know. And South America is looking for a dominant hub. If CGH and GRU were merged (new location), than San Paulo would be a natural choice. But not with split hubs 29km apart... too many missed connection opportunities.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: itrade
Posted 2013-09-09 15:31:28 and read 11354 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Dozens. All of the top 50 qualify, there are a lot of hubs out there... :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's...affic

Not sure if MCO qualifies as a hub.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
The only merger in process is US/AA (temporarily blocked). That merger could put CLT at some risk. At that point, I see the US hubs as being consolidated.

I don't think CLT is going anywhere. After the pulldowns in MEM, RDU, and (to an extent CVG, there are only two major hubs in the South - Atlanta and Charlotte. CLT might lose a couple gates as part of a settlement agreement, but I don't think CLT is going to be significantly affected. Any losses in CLT flying will likely be to the Caribbean. A combined AA/US, will be more likely to funnel them through MIA and JFK.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2013-09-09 16:16:50 and read 10820 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 17):
I don't think CLT is going anywhere. After the pulldowns in MEM, RDU, and (to an extent CVG, there are only two major hubs in the South - Atlanta and Charlotte. CLT might lose a couple gates as part of a settlement agreement, but I don't think CLT is going to be significantly affected. Any losses in CLT flying will likely be to the Caribbean. A combined AA/US, will be more likely to funnel them through MIA and JFK.

I do think however it will be interesting to watch how CLT is impacted with what they decide to allow in this merger. Similarly should DL acquire AS, SLC could see some similar reductions.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: BoeingMerica
Posted 2013-09-09 18:07:17 and read 9779 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 18):
After the pulldowns in MEM, RDU, and (to an extent CVG, there are only two major hubs in the South - Atlanta and Charlotte.

So were not considering Mia a large airport in the southeast? I mean compared to Atl, no it is not. However, the airport has many EU connection opportunities as well as an expansive domestic operation and a well documented strong latin and south american network. There is not much the airport lacks, it is a MAJOR airport in the southeastern United States.

About the only thing it does not do it handle cross country domestic travelers, sheerly due to geography.

BoeingMerica

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: teneriffe77
Posted 2013-09-09 18:18:07 and read 9664 times.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM Reply 4:
When SYR lost its hub status, they simply walled off the ends of the concourses (and presumably cut off the HVAC system).

I believe he is referring to PIT as I've flown out of SYR plenty of times during and after it was a hub and I can say for certain that the concourses were not walled off. I know that they did that in PIT but in SYR the concourses are still fully in use with the hub end of the south concourse still in use by US.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: PROSA
Posted 2013-09-09 19:02:13 and read 9292 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 17):
After the pulldowns in MEM, RDU, and (to an extent CVG, there are only two major hubs in the South - Atlanta and Charlotte.

I would consider DFW and IAH to be in the South. In addition to MIA, as previously noted. If you really want to stretch definitions, IAD too.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: xjet
Posted 2013-09-09 19:14:36 and read 9175 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 13):

Actually, all DHL jets at CVG use runway 9-27 exclusively due to noise abatement. Land 9, depart 27. The Shorts, and other turbo props use 36C, but that is only 4 aircraft every night. The departure push is somewhat busy, but the departure times are regulated so there isn't ever much runway congestion unless the sort gets delayed.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: ChrisInBrasil
Posted 2013-09-09 19:17:47 and read 9151 times.

Well, what cities in the USA are hubs now?

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: tjh8402
Posted 2013-09-09 19:30:28 and read 9015 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 17):
Not sure if MCO qualifies as a hub.

Although perhaps not a hub in the legacy sense of the word, we are a focus city for B6 and WN, and I thought FL did officially label us a hub.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2013-09-09 19:45:59 and read 9237 times.

Quoting BoeingMerica (Reply 19):
So were not considering Mia a large airport in the southeast? I mean compared to Atl, no it is not. However, the airport has many EU connection opportunities as well as an expansive domestic operation and a well documented strong latin and south american network. There is not much the airport lacks, it is a MAJOR airport in the southeastern United States.

About the only thing it does not do it handle cross country domestic travelers, sheerly due to geography.

MIA is clearly the great gateway to Latin America and can do more for AA in that mission than ATL can for DL.

Quoting ChrisInBrasil (Reply 23):
Well, what cities in the USA are hubs now?

SEA for AS
SFO for US
LAX for AA, UA & DL Pacific Rim
PHX for US
SLC for DL
DEN for UA & F9
DFW for AA
IAH for UA
MSP for DL
ORD for UA & AA
DTW for DL
CVG for DL (downsizing)
CLE for UA (downsizing)
ATL for DL
MIA for AA
IAD for UA
PHL for US
CLT for US
EWR for UA
LGA for DL
JFK for DL & B6, AA lessor extent
DCA for US
BOS for DL, AA & B6
WN big in LAS, PHX, DEN, DAL, HOU, MCI, STL, MDW, MCO, BWI, FLL
Anything I left out feel free to append  

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: itrade
Posted 2013-09-09 20:02:47 and read 9020 times.

How about WN/FL at ATL.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: christao17
Posted 2013-09-09 20:04:26 and read 9292 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 25):
SFO for US

Of course, you mean for UA.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2013-09-09 20:19:21 and read 9162 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 25):
SFO for US

I believe you mean UA.  

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: bohica
Posted 2013-09-09 20:25:49 and read 9134 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 18):
Similarly should DL acquire AS

Here we go again.  

Can we have one thread without AS merger speculation?

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-09-09 20:34:38 and read 9067 times.

Quoting BoeingMerica (Reply 3):
As a former resident of Southwest Ohio they are in, although not as great nowadays, a state of denial. I think a few of the leaders believe one day it will all come back and will continue to pay to upkeep the current airport size.

Oh yeah the denial is very high sometimes. These airports getting de-hubbed happened for a reason, they are not gonna be re-hubbed unless oil goes way way way back down in price. Those hubs were only financially viable in a much lower fuel world.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 18):
Similarly should DL acquire AS, SLC could see some similar reductions.

LOL you keep saying this, but the reality is Delta has 0.0000001% chance of acquiring Alaska. The government would never allow that go thru now. All these mergers and planes totally full has made politicians on alert and we have had so much consolidation. The government should be fair and let AA/US merge in the end IMHO but AS/DL will just never happen besides the face that AS is very financially strong and doesn't want to, the politicians in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, and probably California would go absolutely crazy to stop that from happening. That merger just isn't happening.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: Amwest2united
Posted 2013-09-09 20:43:02 and read 8970 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 17):
Not sure if MCO qualifies as a hub.

How far back are we going?

MCO was a hub for Florida Express, then bought by Braniff II, Also Delta Express had a hub there.

DAY = PI
BWI = PI, then US, now WN
SYR = PI
CLT = EA, then PI now US
PIT = TW
CLE = UA, then CO, now UA
ATL = TW
MDW = ML
SLC = Morris
MCI = BN, then EA, then BN, then KINDA US
IND = US
CMH = HP

I know there are many I am missing

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2013-09-09 21:08:30 and read 8790 times.

For PIT, the terminal situation there has already been discussed. So to talk about the runways...

For the runways, pit has four 10/28 L/C/R and runway 14/32.

14/32, I have only ever seen that runway used for arrivals on 32. I have never seen or heard of 14 being used at all in this day in age. It seems every time I have been in the area at night, I have always seen at least one aircraft use 32. I believe this was one of the original runways of the airport.

Now for the three parallel runways.

Of the three, left and right are the primary runways. Typically, northerly arrivals use 28R/10L and southerly arrivals use 28L/10R. 28/10C is used some, but I don't know how much. I know Center only has RNAV GPS and RNP approaches, but it is mainly a VFR runway.

As for the 911th and 171st, I believe that it is in their agreement with the airport that they get priority use of 28L/10R when they need it. Any time I have seen either 130's or the 135's flying, they have been using that runway. I also remember a friend, who works on the 135's, saying that should the shit ever hit the fan, they can take exclusive use of that runway. Hopefully there is someone else on here who may know more about this.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-09-09 21:27:47 and read 8628 times.

I got a question...will we ever see the creation of new hub cities? I don't know, say, SJC for AS or AUS for B6?

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: AS737MAX
Posted 2013-09-09 21:42:05 and read 8532 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 25):
Anything I left out feel free to append
AS at PDX, ANC, and to a lessor extent LAX

Quoting Noise (Reply 33):
SJC for AS

I think that SAN would be hubbed by AS before SJC

But for an AS lineup of destinations served: (Including QX and OO so some flights may double)

SEA: 79
PDX: 44
ANC: 27
LAX: 19
SAN: 13
SJC: 12

Who knows what could happen but currently 13 destinations isn't really enough to justify a hub

Big version: Width: 720 Height: 360 File size: 21kb

Just a photo of pretty much every hub, do we have enough? Big grin

[Edited 2013-09-09 22:04:34]

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: BHMNONREV
Posted 2013-09-10 01:51:49 and read 7472 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Quoting roseflyer (Reply 5):
STL could probably sell the land for runway 11/29 and earn a reasonable amount of money. The runway is a bit detached from the other 3, although noise from the other runways might make the land less valuable.

11/29 is semi-useful for airlines operating at Concourse A on a west flow (departures) and on east flow (arrivals). It cuts taxi time down quite a bit.

Correct. My last three AA flights to DFW departed from 29, and with 29 not used for arrivals it makes for a very quick and easy departure. Not much difference than using 12L or 12R and no waits for inbound traffic. I think it gets quite a bit more use than it used to after it opened.

It's a shame 6/24 does not get used much anymore, and judging by tire marks 6 does not get used at all. Back in the 60's and early 70's it was not uncommon for 6 to carry the majority of arrivals on any given day.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2013-09-10 04:08:24 and read 6823 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):


11/29 is semi-useful for airlines operating at Concourse A on a west flow (departures) and on east flow (arrivals). It cuts taxi time down quite a bit.

I've used it several times when flying out of A. I've even landed on 24 a couple of times recently.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2013-09-10 04:53:47 and read 6556 times.

SJU after AA closed its hub; AA/AE had over 125+ flights per day durings its peak, now AE gone, AA has between 11/13 daily departures per day. B6 has a focus city in SJU w/around 40+ per day allegedly increasing to 70/75. AA's current SJU terminal now belongs to the government of Puerto Rico, rumor is it will be closed for 2yrs, partially demolished and renovated. AA and some other carriers will relocate. B6's brand new terminal will also be modified and expanded to increase US Customs/Immigration capacity.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2013-09-10 05:02:29 and read 6472 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 25):
WN big in LAS, PHX, DEN, DAL, HOU, MCI, STL, MDW, MCO, BWI, FLL

And BNA.

Quoting Amwest2united (Reply 31):
MCO was a hub for Florida Express, then bought by Braniff II, Also Delta Express had a hub there.

DL has had a hub in MCO at least twice.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: gsoflyer
Posted 2013-09-10 06:25:19 and read 5850 times.

Technically AGA (GUAM) is a hub too, in the USA for United.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-10 07:07:26 and read 5521 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
Frankly, I could see Terminal 2 being bulldozed soon and T3 Concourse C being demolished shortly afterward. T3C was built for 50-seat RJs and is outmoded, plus CVG has plenty of extra gates on both Concourses A and B. And the unused gates on A could actually fit a sizable WN operation should they come to CVG (though they're currently happy serving Cincinnati through DAY, CMH, IND, and SDF, just look at F9's move from DAY).
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
CVG Concourse A was renovated and is again being used as of 2012, when Terminal 2 closed. Terminal 1 was recently reopened for charters, and continued to serve as the CVG administration building even after the initial closure for pax service.

I believe 2 is slated for demo sometime soon, or renovation into something else.
1 is most likely going to be renamed "charter terminal."
In terms of WN, I heard though not many cincinnatians actually fly with WN...my dad drove to DAY once to fly US.
I'm not holding out on WN. I say get someone like VX here, or have F9 expand operations

CVG is a hub for 5Y and associated services, as well as having a lot of widebodies from DHL fly in every day. In a span of 2 hours of spotting at CVG the other day, I saw 3 747Fs arrive and one depart, along with countless other services fly in and out.

Quoting bohica (Reply 29):
Can we have one thread without AS merger speculation?

Please!!!

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-09-10 07:15:17 and read 5451 times.

Quoting itrade (Reply 17):
I don't think CLT is going anywhere.

Agreed. Hence why I phrased it as 'risk.'   

Quoting bohica (Reply 29):
Can we have one thread without AS merger speculation?

Yes. Lets.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 34):
Just a photo of pretty much every hub, do we have enough?

First, I like the image. But that brings up discussion... Traditional definition of a hub is 30% to 70% connecting traffic. I do not believe SAN, OAK, AZA, SFB, PIE, PGD, MYR, DCA, or BNA qualifies. Some of the others we've already discussed as 'has been hubs.' They might still be hubs, but they are no longer significant.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: USFlyer26
Posted 2013-09-10 07:28:09 and read 5311 times.

Quoting dabpit (Reply 12):
Concourse A & B are walled off at the end.

Per kpittrat in the latest PIT update thread, the wall was just taken down in the A concourse for the combined FL/WN operations.

"As of now the wall is gone, the moving walkways are all functioning to the end, and they are even listing Arrivals/Departures on the boards in the extended wing. It looks like it has only been closed for 2 weeks. That being said there are obviously no stores or food areas open as everything was walled off. Also there are no jetways for gates 24 and 25 from what I saw. Still it was really nice to walk all the way down and get that different perspective of 28R. Got to see some planes take off and land.

From my limited knowledge I believe WN is parking FL RONs on gates A 17 and 19 ,also, all the lines have been repainted for those two gates. The Tampa flight was taxiing into 19 as I was leaving."

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: BoeingMerica
Posted 2013-09-10 07:30:25 and read 5290 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 25):
MIA is clearly the great gateway to Latin America and can do more for AA in that mission than ATL can for DL.

Which is what I clearly said, in my point arguing how MIA SHOULD be considered a top, large scale important airport to the southeastern United States. So I am not so sure what your whole post was about....

Quoting Amwest2united (Reply 31):
LOL you keep saying this, but the reality is Delta has 0.0000001% chance of acquiring Alaska. The government would never allow that go thru now. All these mergers and planes totally full has made politicians on alert and we have had so much consolidation.

        

Not going to happen. Airlines are fully on alert that there will be no future merging. The cost of entry barriers to the industry are so extreme that unless the government put their wallet behind an entrant(which wont happen) we will not see another carrier large enough to take advantage of cost savings of an economy of scale. As the air travel sector continues to grow, this is only going to become an even bigger issue. For your wallet's sake, I hope in the coming decades we find a few more entrants into the market, we sure need it.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: AS737MAX
Posted 2013-09-10 07:46:12 and read 5163 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):



SAN, OAK, AZA, PIE, SFB, PGD, MYR, DCA, BNA removed

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2013-09-10 07:50:40 and read 5110 times.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 34):
I think that SAN would be hubbed by AS before SJC

SAN won't be hubbed by anyone (not any time soon). Its in the corner of the country and the terminal facilities are not set up for it. You're going to need a second runway and some MCRD land to do that.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: stratacruiser
Posted 2013-09-10 08:33:56 and read 4875 times.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 25):
BOS for DL, AA & B6

BOS certainly isn't an AA hub, or even a "focus city". See http://www.boston.com/business/2013/.../IPrQPG9xwcIFKf522dvPIO/story.html Only AA destinations left are MIA, JFK, ORD, LAX, DFW and the seasonal 757 to CDG.

For that matter, if you define "hub" as an airport through which a carrier routes significant connecting traffic, BOS has always been a minor player at best. Even for carriers offering a variety of destinations - currently B6, DL and US lead the pack - most traffic is O/D. Boston's geographic location and Logan's limited space make it an unlikely choice for a domestic hub. Over the years a few US carriers have tried to use Logan as a trans-Atlantic hub, but without sustained success. Indeed today there are only four daily TA flights operated by US carriers (DL to 1x LHR, 2x AMS and AA 1x CDG)....BA offers more daily seats to LHR alone than all US carriers do from Logan to all of Europe.

Dave

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: ItalianFlyer
Posted 2013-09-10 08:45:37 and read 4836 times.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 38):
DL has had a hub in MCO at least twice.

UA took a stab at a MCO hublett in the early-mid 90s too. Was a mix of large hub flying, some p2p and intra-Florida on 737s.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2013-09-10 09:56:48 and read 4652 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
First, I like the image. But that brings up discussion... Traditional definition of a hub is 30% to 70% connecting traffic. I do not believe SAN, OAK, AZA, SFB, PIE, PGD, MYR, DCA, or BNA qualifies. Some of the others we've already discussed as 'has been hubs.' They might still be hubs, but they are no longer significant.
Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 44):
SAN, OAK, AZA, PIE, SFB, PGD, MYR, DCA, BNA removed

If that's the measuring stick criteria for a hub, then quite a few others on the map above don't qualify: FLL (8%), LAS (15%), PDX (16%), JFK (17%), HNL (19%), LAX (21%), SFO (22%), BWI (26%), SEA (28%), and EWR (28%). Others on the map that I feel wouldn't qualify would include OGG, SJC, BOS, LGB, and MCO.

Perhaps a better definition would be based upon volume rather than percentages, since most people would argue that airports like JFK and EWR are certainly "hubs."

(The connecting passenger stats come from this recent study concerning CLT's governance, pg. 5: http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/d...irport%20governance%20ow%20vf.pdf)

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-09-10 10:31:08 and read 4569 times.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 45):
Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 34):
I think that SAN would be hubbed by AS before SJC

SAN won't be hubbed by anyone (not any time soon). Its in the corner of the country and the terminal facilities are not set up for it. You're going to need a second runway and some MCRD land to do that.

I guess hence the reason I mentioned SJC as a potential "new hub" for AS instead of SAN. Geographically, SJC makes more sense than SAN...or even SEA, ANC and PDX for that matter (SJC would be good for North-South traffic, but like how UA uses SFO).

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: BoeingMerica
Posted 2013-09-10 11:33:53 and read 4447 times.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 45):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):



SAN, OAK, AZA, PIE, SFB, PGD, MYR, DCA, BNA removed

Many more of these could be removed very easily. I mean MCO is not a hub for any one particular airline and STL??? We might as well add DAY if your adding STL.
Get out of here you TWA troll.

That airport and Dale Earnhart have one thing in common. Neither has seen a plane since 2001.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: AS737MAX
Posted 2013-09-10 15:50:52 and read 4165 times.

Updated version

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: TPAfan
Posted 2013-09-10 17:20:59 and read 4005 times.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 51):

If you want to get technical, WN doesn't consider cities "hubs" rather focus cities. And On this map, if we were including focus cities, throw up all of B6's and also Allegient's. And if you were including WN's top cities, wouldn't BWI crack the list? Just drop HOU and MDW  

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: AS737MAX
Posted 2013-09-10 17:33:54 and read 3931 times.

TPAFan, go check out the map on reply 34

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: indywa
Posted 2013-09-10 22:32:29 and read 3618 times.

I would definitely still consider SEA a hub city...

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: FlyPeoria
Posted 2013-09-11 06:02:11 and read 3413 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):
DAY plans to wall up Concourse A soon in addition to Concourse D, leaving it with just B and C.

According to this, Concourse C is the pier extended in 1982 for the PI hub and Concourse B is the shorter parallel pier (both original piers of the 1961 terminal). I figure Concourse D is the old "Delta Concourse" built c. 1970, but where was Concourse A...the ground level commuter gate(s) attached to Concourse B?

http://www.flydayton.com/index.php?page=main-concourse

It's amazing how far DAY has fallen since the early 1990s. I was at the annual air show there in 1984, 1985, 1987, 1990 and 1991 and observed the PI-then US hub up close. Quite a bit of traffic for a metro area of just under 1 million. Then you had the Emery Worldwide cargo operation. Now DAY is neither a passenger nor cargo hub, and the airfield seems abnormally large for present air traffic.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: BoeingMerica
Posted 2013-09-11 08:27:07 and read 3275 times.

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 55):
It's amazing how far DAY has fallen since the early 1990s. I was at the annual air show there in 1984, 1985, 1987, 1990 and 1991 and observed the PI-then US hub up close. Quite a bit of traffic for a metro area of just under 1 million. Then you had the Emery Worldwide cargo operation. Now DAY is neither a passenger nor cargo hub, and the airfield seems abnormally large for present air traffic.

And let me tell you how that town has just "let itself go"... Lived there the first 20 years of my life, dear god is it bad. So many leaders focus on unrealistic goals, throwing money at the symptoms while ignoring the issues and wondering why nothing ever changes. They are so immersed in racial, poverty issues they do nothing to help the root cause, no jobs. It's pathetic and disgusting.

When it comes to DAY, i feel like they are still oversized. We could really get away with flights to ATL, LGA and ORD. They don't need the DTW flight, as there isn't much that makes sense to connect thru DTW vs ATL.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: FlyPeoria
Posted 2013-09-11 08:46:58 and read 3247 times.

Quoting BoeingMerica (Reply 56):
And let me tell you how that town has just "let itself go"... Lived there the first 20 years of my life, dear god is it bad. So many leaders focus on unrealistic goals, throwing money at the symptoms while ignoring the issues and wondering why nothing ever changes. They are so immersed in racial, poverty issues they do nothing to help the root cause, no jobs. It's pathetic and disgusting.


Yeah, that's common in many large cities. Dayton had 262,000 people in 1960. Today, it is about 140,000 and still declining. Perhaps symbolically, the previous mayor's family business was a funeral home.  
Quoting BoeingMerica (Reply 56):
When it comes to DAY, i feel like they are still oversized. We could really get away with flights to ATL, LGA and ORD. They don't need the DTW flight, as there isn't much that makes sense to connect thru DTW vs ATL.


I wouldn't want DAY to lose any present service. I understand airport management has kept costs low for airlines. I even have hopes that WN will avoid CVG and build DAY into a decent operation. That's about all DAY can expect as it will never return to the glory days when it was both an air cargo and passenger airline hub.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: osubuckeyes
Posted 2013-09-11 08:48:18 and read 3240 times.

Quoting BoeingMerica (Reply 56):
They don't need the DTW flight

How about the Northeast, Northwest, Upper Midwest, Asia, and possibly Europe. They have 4x CRJ which probably is not too tough to fill to DTW with connections to those places. You may be right, but I bet that DAY still receives a large amount of traffic that drives from CVG and other surrounding areas.

As far as demolition of old terminals and runways. Specifically in regards to terminals, sometimes it costs less to let them sit unused than to demolish them. Also even though most of these airports realize they will not be getting a hub back most likely. Those same airports may be primary candidates for future start up carriers due to space and runway availability.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: 777STL
Posted 2013-09-11 15:24:25 and read 2973 times.

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Thread starter):
STL has 4 runways including one, 11/29, that rarely gets used.

That's not true. I've flown into/out of 11/29 several times in the past few months. While it's newer and somewhat distant from E and D, it's still a fully active runway. It's not as if it's sitting out there dormant and unused.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 5):
STL could probably sell the land for runway 11/29 and earn a reasonable amount of money. The runway is a bit detached from the other 3, although noise from the other runways might make the land less valuable.

Huh? Why would they demolish a billion dollar runway for a bunch of garbage land bordering the airport in north STL?

Quoting BoeingMerica (Reply 50):
Many more of these could be removed very easily. I mean MCO is not a hub for any one particular airline and STL??? We might as well add DAY if your adding STL.
Get out of here you TWA troll.

That airport and Dale Earnhart have one thing in common. Neither has seen a plane since 2001.

Yet, it's one of WN's focus cities with 90 something departures/day. It's also the biggest MSA in the US right now without a flight to Europe. Dayton couldn't even dream of that.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-11 18:13:07 and read 2817 times.

Quoting indywa (Reply 54):
I would definitely still consider SEA a hub city...

SEA is indeed a hub for AS. And the more DL expands there, the more likely it will be named a hub for DL.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2013-09-11 19:11:27 and read 2718 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 30):
you keep saying this, but the reality is Delta has 0.0000001% chance of acquiring Alaska. The government would never allow that go thru now. All these mergers and planes totally full has made politicians on alert and we have had so much consolidation. The government should be fair and let AA/US merge in the end IMHO but AS/DL will just never happen besides the face that AS is very financially strong and doesn't want to, the politicians in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, and probably California would go absolutely crazy to stop that from happening. That merger just isn't happening.

You can play the denial game all you want, but...

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 60):
SEA is indeed a hub for AS. And the more DL expands there, the more likely it will be named a hub for DL.

...and SLC will become more an more like CVG, and eventually a high WN preseence? Or at least that's the risk DL could be running with such a scheme. But any AA/US merger with any likely concessions could leave the door open for such a DL/AS scenario. But if the DOJ wins this one and they back down, then AS is safe for awhile.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-09-11 19:30:01 and read 2673 times.

I know SEA Is a hub for AS I never said it wasn't. It is a hub but doesn't have a good enough geographical location to move real mass numbers. The airlines really care about over flying and reducing fuel costs more than ever, location is very important.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 61):
But if the DOJ wins this one and they back down, then AS is safe for awhile

AA+US merger will make it even less likely to happen! Too much consolidation the government wont let it happen. Alaska is safe, they want to remain independent anyway. The reps from Washington, Oregon, California, and other states would not let this happen especially if the airline doesn't want to merge. Delta has never even once mentioned merging they just want to use AS to get people on their Asian flights. Its a win-win for both airlines and better not to merge.

Reality is this merger wont happen please feel free to call me out after it happens but I guarantee you wont see AS/DL merge in the next 10 years guaranteed. Please come back and prove me wrong cause AS+DL cant happen the government wont allow it. AS has tons and i mean tons of cash they have no reason to want to merge they are killing it right now.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-09-11 19:54:06 and read 2620 times.

If DL expands further into SEA, is the AS hub in SEA at risk?

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: TSS
Posted 2013-09-11 20:33:32 and read 2561 times.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 58):
Specifically in regards to terminals, sometimes it costs less to let them sit unused than to demolish them.

Indeed. Unless there is a specific structural problem such as a leaky roof, crumbling foundation, or severe damage due to weather or infestation, it costs far, far less to simply wall off a concourse and let it stand than it does to tear it down. A closed concourse can be used for storage, it can be divided into offices, and, perhaps most efficiently, it can be used as a temporary replacement concourse while an other concourse is being remodeled.

Topic: RE: De-Hubbed Airports
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-11 21:22:34 and read 2489 times.

Oh holy jesus I was not meaning to have this thing turn into ANOTHER AS speculation thread  
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 61):
...and SLC will become more an more like CVG, and eventually a high WN preseence? Or at least that's the risk DL could be running with such a scheme. But any AA/US merger with any likely concessions could leave the door open for such a DL/AS scenario. But if the DOJ wins this one and they back down, then AS is safe for awhile.

I have no premonitions whatsoever that would suggest that DL and AS would merge. . SLC Is a mountain west hub. SEA would be the Asian getaway that it is. Hell, if SLC is what youre worried about, then you should've been worried about the JV that AS has with DL.

Those two will NEVER merge. Two completely different biz models, and there's no need for it. I like how they compliment eachother. Makes some smooth connections at SEA (well not the last 2 times I flew in - once I got bumped off my AS flight, and back in August the gate changed FIVE TIMES without notice.....holy heck it was nuts.)

Quoting Noise (Reply 63):
If DL expands further into SEA, is the AS hub in SEA at risk?

Not at all. In fact it would be strengthened with the onwards connections with AS.

/endASspeculation


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