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Topic: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-09 15:18:01 and read 11135 times.

In a move that I guess signals their continued path to ULCC, Frontier canceled service from Wilmington to Houston effective October 2nd but won't waive the fare difference on a reroute of effected pax thru DEN. I guess this means when you fly Frontier you need a backup plan now.

http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...Frontier-charges-fliers-to-Houston

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-09-09 15:20:54 and read 11140 times.

Sorry guys, but this is the treatment you can expect from airlines like this.

But as long as they make a profit, I guess we can't possibly gripe, can we?

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 15:28:25 and read 11090 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Thread starter):
In a move that I guess signals their continued path to ULCC, Frontier canceled service from Wilmington to Houston effective October 2nd but won't waive the fare difference on a reroute of effected pax thru DEN. I guess this means when you fly Frontier you need a backup plan now.
Quoting awacsooner (Reply 1):

Sorry guys, but this is the treatment you can expect from airlines like this.

Hmmmm? The pax were offered a refund.

To fly through DEN would have meant a two day journey with 11 hours in transit. Why would anyone want that?

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-09-09 15:30:00 and read 11082 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 1):
Sorry guys, but this is the treatment you can expect from airlines like this.

But as long as they make a profit, I guess we can't possibly gripe, can we?

No, one cannot expect treatment like this from any airline.... F9 needed to take proper care of those who had tix here. Bad bad bad community outreach by F9 here.

And it's a bigger gripe if F9 doesn't make a profit. However, I don't know how many pax are involved here, but I doubt that rerouting them without a charge would have too much affect on any bottom line. Yes... it's a few dollars more.... but how much more could it be if the route wasn't performing that well anyway?

 

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-09 15:39:21 and read 11004 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Hmmmm? The pax were offered a refund.

To fly through DEN would have meant a two day journey with 11 hours in transit. Why would anyone want that?

Yes, they were offered a refund but most paid $100RT for their tickets not even close to what they could get from other carriers from BWI or PHL. And if passengers held nonrefundable car or hotel reservations they would have been stuck paying $200-300 more for a ticket on another carrier because they would have been able to get their money back for their hotels and such.

My brother and his family bought 5 tickets on the route (luckily they were in August and were completed). Had they canceled on him, it would have cost him $1000-$1500 extra to fly another carrier. If he decieded to cancel his trip he would have been stuck with a $600 non refundable hotwire car reservation, $500 in nonrefundable hotel charges. It wouldn't have been the optimal thing but it would have saved him alot of money.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Mah4546
Posted 2013-09-09 15:43:29 and read 10965 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
To fly through DEN would have meant a two day journey with 11 hours in transit. Why would anyone want that?

Huh? It's a one day journey with ~2 hours in transit. Convenient? No.

Should it have been offered at no additional cost? Absolutely.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-09-09 15:50:59 and read 10892 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Hmmmm? The pax were offered a refund.

To fly through DEN would have meant a two day journey with 11 hours in transit. Why would anyone want that?

mariner

Just offering a refund is not sufficient. They made an offer, the passengers accepted and a contract was made, and should be carried out. I understand cancellations and that things can change but it is very unfair to passengers. Additional options with no increase in cost should have offered.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 4):
Yes, they were offered a refund but most paid $100RT for their tickets not even close to what they could get from other carriers from BWI or PHL. And if passengers held nonrefundable car or hotel reservations they would have been stuck paying $200-300 more for a ticket on another carrier because they would have been able to get their money back for their hotels and such.

  

Tugg

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-09-09 15:51:10 and read 10890 times.

I don't think what Frontier did was technically in violation of any regulations, but it is bad customer service not to offer to reroute passengers when it is possible. Frontier should have offered to rebook passengers via Denver. That is standard industry practice. If for example United ended Norfolk-Houston nonstop service, they'd offer to reroute all passengers via IAD or ORD.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-09 15:57:11 and read 10841 times.

In that the FAA is citing airlines; WN and UA thus far perhaps there is a contract of carriage violation which could be pursued.

Because it's a route and not an entire city closure; hence Columbia, Missouri. The carrier has an obligation to the carry the paid passenger from point A to B be it circuitous at no additional cost. to the paid passenger.

Sorry a refund doesn't cut the mustard for plans that were set in motion months ago.

F9 should step up as a corporate citizen and honor the tickets already purchased. The flying public should not be penalized for bad route planning decisions made by the airline.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-09 15:57:37 and read 10840 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Hmmmm? The pax were offered a refund.

Nowhere near the point. The rules and restrictions on tickets these days basically prohibit passengers from making any changes to the agreed-upon (and paid for) itinerary without having to pay a lot more money. Change fees and the like. And that's all good.

So why should it be any different at all when the airline makes the changes on its own? It's somehow exempt from the same pocketbook penalty for failing to hold up their end of the bargain? BS. The passengers bought the tickets. Frontier should be on the hook for providing the service they agreed to provide. And at the agreed-upon price. This is bait and switch, clearly.

Just another indication of how the "new" Frontier may be cheaper in the short term but is an increasingly bad value in the long run. Not the greatest of business models...

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: roseflyer
Posted 2013-09-09 15:59:20 and read 10822 times.

I took a look at the Frontier contract of carriage and they do have the requirement to reroute passengers built in. This would be something to file a complaint over:

C. Schedule Change -- When a passenger is delayed because of a change in the Airline’s schedule,
arrangements will be made to:
1) Transport the passenger over its route system to the destination, next stopover point, or connecting point
shown on its portion of the ticket, without stopover when possible.
2) Refund the cost of the ticket or unused portion of the ticket in accordance with Rule 260 - Involuntary
Refunds.
3) If onward transportation cannot be provided within 3 hours of the original schedule arrival, the passenger
may be rebooked on another carrier with which the Airline has Ticketing and Baggage agreements.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 16:52:57 and read 10559 times.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 5):
Huh? It's a one day journey with ~2 hours in transit. Convenient? No.

From the article:

"Maureen Cushing, the bride’s aunt, said she was told that if she chose to take a connecting flight, she would need to leave the prior day and then spend 11 hours in transit."

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-09 17:13:56 and read 10459 times.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 10):
C. Schedule Change -- When a passenger is delayed because of a change in the Airline’s schedule,
arrangements will be made to:
1) Transport the passenger over its route system to the destination, next stopover point, or connecting point
shown on its portion of the ticket, without stopover when possible.
2) Refund the cost of the ticket or unused portion of the ticket in accordance with Rule 260 - Involuntary
Refunds.
3) If onward transportation cannot be provided within 3 hours of the original schedule arrival, the passenger
may be rebooked on another carrier with which the Airline has Ticketing and Baggage agreements.

Someone needs to print the CoC before it mysteriously disappears into cyber space.

In rank order I assume item C.1 takes precedence over C.2 and C.3 and is at the discretion of the contracted passenger to select which one he wants.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2013-09-09 17:21:49 and read 10385 times.

Frontier should have paid for carriers out of Phl. This isnt ulcc model, this is totally class less. I'm disappointed in this behavior.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-09 17:24:09 and read 10365 times.

I'm surprised F9 kabashed ILG-IAH during the TTN closure. You almost have to think IAH was a forward looking new Apple city and gateway which didn't pan out.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Mah4546
Posted 2013-09-09 17:29:07 and read 10330 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
"Maureen Cushing, the bride’s aunt, said she was told that if she chose to take a connecting flight, she would need to leave the prior day and then spend 11 hours in transit."

A quick check of Frontier's booking engine shows it offers connections via DEN in both directions with a two hour transit. Though the days might be different; I didn't check that.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 17:32:30 and read 10302 times.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 15):
A quick check of Frontier's booking engine shows it offers connections via DEN in both directions with a two hour transit. Though the days might be different; I didn't check that.

So are you suggesting she's telling fibs in the article?

Mind you, I note that they had to go all the way to Milwaukee and find an "analyst" who used to work for Midwest to get the most negative comments.

Such is life.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jr
Posted 2013-09-09 17:37:19 and read 10288 times.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 7):
I don't think what Frontier did was technically in violation of any regulations, but it is bad customer service not to offer to reroute passengers when it is possible.

Is it legal really? Maybe, I wouldn't know. But is it ethical?

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
"Maureen Cushing, the bride’s aunt, said she was told that if she chose to take a connecting flight, she would need to leave the prior day and then spend 11 hours in transit."

That sounds like something that came out of a bull's back side for some reason. Again, what would I know? Does the story she was told line up properly with the reality behind the airline's schedule for connecting via DEN to IAH?

I always rooted for Frontier and wanted to see them succeed. I think my opinion is beginning to change.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-09 17:45:57 and read 10223 times.

The schedule varies widely with some days the connection being as little as an hour and 15 minutes but on October 3rd it will take 10hrs and 46 minutes to get to IAH via DEN.

F9 0395 ILG 01:20 PM DEN 03:20 PM

Layover: 4h 20m

F9 0148 DEN 07:40 PM IAH 10:59 PM

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-09-09 17:49:00 and read 10189 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Thread starter):
In a move that I guess signals their continued path to ULCC, Frontier canceled service from Wilmington to Houston effective October 2nd but won't waive the fare difference on a reroute of effected pax thru DEN.

Even Spirit would've waived the fare difference in this case. What's happening to Frontier is a shame.

Quote:
“We offered fares as low as $59 each way as introductory offers between Wilmington and Houston, and unfortunately, those fares do not cover the cost of the connecting flights between Wilmington, Denver and Houston,” O’Malley said.

They're not supposed to! The difference is supposed to be made up in ancillary revenue. Does Frontier not know how a ULCC makes money?

[Edited 2013-09-09 17:50:25]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-09-09 17:52:12 and read 10172 times.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 10):
I took a look at the Frontier contract of carriage and they do have the requirement to reroute passengers built in. This would be something to file a complaint over:

It's poorly drafted, because there is no "or" between the items on the list, but I would interpret that part of the CoC as giving the airline the option. Since they are offering refunds, they are technically complying with the CoC. Still horrible customer service and worth a good shot of bad publicity.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 17:52:33 and read 10171 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 18):
The schedule varies widely with some days the connection being as little as an hour and 15 minutes but on October 3rd it will take 10hrs and 46 minutes to get to IAH via DEN.

So you think she is telling fibs, too? Why would she do that?

But if she is telling porkies then it throws the whole article into question.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-09 17:55:33 and read 10130 times.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have to remember just because the press may say it is so doesn't always make it so.

The media has been known to go out of their way to find the saddest of sad stories. As a PR (external affairs) guru in a federal unified command I've found myself having to correct the media about the accuracy of a story.

[Edited 2013-09-09 17:58:48]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jetmarc
Posted 2013-09-09 17:56:47 and read 10119 times.

Sounds (reads) like a gray area in the CoC since it doesn't say F9 can or cannot charge a differnece in fare. But I was under the impression that by purchasing a ticket, both parties entered into a contract that clearly states transportation will be furnished between these to cities on F9s route map, or given a refund, etc... But I also thought there were DOT rules that stated all fees and such must be produced upfront and cannot be added or required after a confirmed purchase which this seems to be. Almost a case of bait and switch.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jetmarc
Posted 2013-09-09 18:02:52 and read 10074 times.

From the DOT Enchancing Airline Passenger Protections PDF:

Bans the practice of post-purchase price increases in air transportation or air tours unless the increase is due to an increase in government-imposed taxes or fees and only if the passenger was provided full disclosure of the potential for the increase and affirmatively agreed to the potential for such an increase prior to purchase.

• Requires any seller of scheduled air transportation to notify a consumer of the potential for a price increase for the scheduled air transportation prior to the time that the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer and to obtain the consumer’s written consent to the potential for such an increase prior to accepting any payment, including a partial payment.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-09-09 18:05:15 and read 10334 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 19):
Quote:
“We offered fares as low as $59 each way as introductory offers between Wilmington and Houston, and unfortunately, those fares do not cover the cost of the connecting flights between Wilmington, Denver and Houston,” O’Malley said.

They're not supposed to!

Not only that but they likely don't cover the cost of the flight it is on (on a per passenger rate) as they were likely special introductory rates of which there were a select number per flight. The pricing was done for advertising purposes and for what all airlines do with staging fares in time/quantity buckets etc. That O'Malley said that is just stupid.

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 18):
The schedule varies widely with some days the connection being as little as an hour and 15 minutes but on October 3rd it will take 10hrs and 46 minutes to get to IAH via DEN.

So you think she is telling fibs, too? Why would she do that?

But if she is telling porkies then it throws the whole article into question.

Perhaps there weren't/aren't seats in the desired fare buckets that the airline was offering to her as an option. She could easily be telling the truth and yet there could also be seats and flights available that have a shorter connection, so the question is: What was Frontier willing to offer?

Tugg

[Edited 2013-09-09 18:08:58]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-09 18:11:34 and read 10347 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
So you think she is telling fibs, too? Why would she do that?

But if she is telling porkies then it throws the whole article into question.

She's not telling lies, Mariner. The wedding as told by the article is on Saturday October 5th, the nonstop would have been on the 4th and the alternative flight would then be on the 3rd. I know you are a big fan of Frontier but they dropped the ball, if they were smart they would pick it up.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 22):
Ladies and Gentlemen we have to remember just because the press may say it is so doesn't always make it so.

Please note there is also another traveler on Flyertalk that is saying this as well
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/21384780-post141.html

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 18:18:23 and read 10398 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 26):
She's not telling lies, Mariner. The wedding as told by the article is on Saturday October 5th, the nonstop would have been on the 4th and the alternative flight would then be on the 3rd. I know you are a big fan of Frontier but they dropped the ball, if they were smart they would pick it up

I'm not the one who suggested who had her facts wrong - you did. You provided an alternate schedule that, you said, disproved what she said.

Whether I am a "fan" of Frontier or not has nothing to do with it. I don't/can't fly 'em. I just look at the facts. The route is cancelled, she was offered her money back.

If Frontier has "dropped the ball" - as you claim - then someone should complain to the DOT.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-09 18:22:46]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-09-09 18:23:09 and read 10337 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
If Frontier has "dropped the ball" - as you claim - then someone should complain to the DOT.

Do you think it rises to the level of an actual DOT claim? Or is more likely just a bad customer service screw up and bad PR?

Tugg

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-09 18:24:35 and read 10319 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 18):
The schedule varies widely with some days the connection being as little as an hour and 15 minutes but on October 3rd it will take 10hrs and 46 minutes to get to IAH via DEN.

Where exactly did I say in that sentence she was lying. I did say that it varied by the day but I also said that it will take 10:46 on October 3rd that would make her comment correct. In my mind if the total time was 10 hours 46 minutes one would probably round up to 11 hours.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 18:30:16 and read 10291 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 28):
Do you think it rises to the level of an actual DOT claim? Or is more likely just a bad customer service screw up and bad PR?

I don't think it is a DOT complaint at all, I think it is a storm in a tea cup.

Bad p.r.? Mayhap. But airlines have survived far worse than this. I look at the amount of "bad p.r." that Spirit gets, or Ryanair, and I scratch my head.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 18:35:43 and read 10246 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 29):
Where exactly did I say in that sentence she was lying.

She said she'd have to leave the day before. You said she could do it in one day.

And there's a discrepancy there, because Frontier doesn't fly ILG-DEN the day before October 3 - or the day after.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Boston
Posted 2013-09-09 18:36:45 and read 10286 times.

F9 is a joke. I just got back from a trip today and this was my first trip with them. 3/4 of my flights were delayed, boarding was horrendously slow and completely disorganized, gate agents didn't care that half the plane was going to miss their connections. They only would help people bound for 2 cities, so the rest of us were told to talk to an agent in Denver when we get there instead of trying to provide us with information before we boarded. My fare was definitely cheaper than UA or DL, but you certainly get what you pay for. F9 is discontinuing service to my city anyway, but they would be my one of my last choices if I had the option to fly them in the future. Always have been, and always will be a die hard UA fan.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-09-09 18:49:03 and read 10213 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 19):
ven Spirit would've waived the fare difference in this case.

I've booked on Spirit, and it canceled a flight on me. Spirit just refunded me the fare, and the next day fare was a lot higher. No discount. They also didn't go out of their way to book me on a legacy carrier (e.g. US) at no charge.

More large scale, it stranded a lot of pax in foreign countries also, in 2010, when they had a pilot strike.

It seems that it didn't have to, but, F9 should have offered to route ILG-DEN-IAH for those request it at no fare increase.

Or as a second option: offer a refund AND some Early Returns points for a free flight that could be used elsewhere. DL has given SkyMiles to me for very delayed flights. Atleast that gesture would be something so that locals wouldn't swear off the airline, for other routes F9 might fly like ILG-MDW.

[Edited 2013-09-09 18:53:25]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-09 18:59:12 and read 10094 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
She said she'd have to leave the day before. You said she could do it in one day.

And there's a discrepancy there, because Frontier doesn't fly ILG-DEN the day before October 3 - or the day after.

Yes, she was originally booked on the nonstop on October 4th. They canceled the nonstop flight and there was no ILG-DEN flight on the 4th. Therefore in order to get to the Wedding that was happening on October 5th she would have to leave the day before (October 3rd) and spend 11 hours between flight times and connection times going ILG-DEN and DEN-IAH.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-09-09 19:17:47 and read 9995 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
I don't think it is a DOT complaint at all, I think it is a storm in a tea cup.

Um, F9 broke the law(s) if this is accurate. We have all kinds of laws protecting consumers from various forms of Fraud.

I'm pretty sure that "not amused" would be the most charitable feelings a judge and/or jury would have if F9 tried to explain that they can cancel on customers at the last minute if they don't wish to pay extra. Its called bait and switch, and its very much not allowed in ANY industry.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-09 19:58:30 and read 9859 times.

Quoting Boston (Reply 32):
Always have been, and always will be a die hard UA fan.

Bias noted. With F9 leaving ABQ you are free to move about the country on the carrier of your choosing.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: SiouxATC
Posted 2013-09-09 20:19:40 and read 9758 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 36):
Bias noted. With F9 leaving ABQ you are free to move about the country on the carrier of your choosing.

Bias? Or a customer requesting reasonable service? I would agree, I'd take WN, DL, UA, or AA anyday over F9.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-09 20:46:33 and read 9616 times.

Quoting Boston (Reply 32):
F9 is a joke. I just got back from a trip today and this was my first trip with them. 3/4 of my flights were delayed, boarding was horrendously slow and completely disorganized, gate agents didn't care that half the plane was going to miss their connections. They only would help people bound for 2 cities, so the rest of us were told to talk to an agent in Denver when we get there instead of trying to provide us with information before we boarded. My fare was definitely cheaper than UA or DL, but you certainly get what you pay for. F9 is discontinuing service to my city anyway, but they would be my one of my last choices if I had the option to fly them in the future. Always have been, and always will be a die hard UA fan.

You never mentioned that you were stranded in Denver overnight, so I take it you weren't. Perhaps those 2 cities were places where there would be no further service that day from DEN and they would have been transfered to another carrier at the station you were in. 3/4 of your flight (103 people) wouldn't have been able to have been served by 1 or 2 gate agents in ABQ or whatevet city you were in and better served by the multitude of agents in the airlines main hub (DEN). Would you have preferred that they rescheduled all 103 of you and further delayed your flight. You got to DEN, they did their job and rescheduled you to get you home on the same day and got you on the best flight home. Your flights weren't the best because of the delays but I highly doubt that they were as horrible as you make them sound.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-09 21:13:36 and read 9531 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 25):
Not only that but they likely don't cover the cost of the flight it is on (on a per passenger rate) as they were likely special introductory rates of which there were a select number per flight. The pricing was done for advertising purposes and for what all airlines do with staging fares in time/quantity buckets etc. That O'Malley said that is just stupid.

Using Frontier's logic here, it would be completely acceptable to demand more money from each passenger prior to boarding in cases where the flight's revenue didn't cover costs. Wanna go? Pony up more money.

If they did that, many MANY more people would be howling. It's all the same logic, though -- passenger obligated to airline, airline completely unobligated to passenger: you get there when/if you get there.

I'm puzzled that F9 thinks that this is the path forward, but it's a free country. I certainly won't be bothering them with my business.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-09-09 21:16:05 and read 9507 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 35):
Um, F9 broke the law(s) if this is accurate.

  

While they can offer to either rebook the passenger for no extra charge or refund the fare, they are absolutely prohibited from charging extra to reroute the passengers.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-09-09 21:21:09 and read 9488 times.

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 37):
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 36):
Bias noted. With F9 leaving ABQ you are free to move about the country on the carrier of your choosing.

Bias? Or a customer requesting reasonable service? I would agree, I'd take WN, DL, UA, or AA anyday over F9.

And it all boils down to what the customer wants. If you like a legacy, you won't likely find Frontier to be reasonable. Yes, I have a bit of a soft spot for F9 (if the signature didn't give it away). Flew them a fair amount and was Ascent and/or Summit for two or three years. Granted, the bulk of that was before the beginning of their shift to the ULCC model. That, coupled with some scheduling changes and a change in the pattern of where I fly, means that UA is now my first choice (and I happen to be pleased with them, too). That aside, I am equal parts surprised and unsurprised by the move from F9. It's another change that I think is unfortunate, but I wish them well as they reinvent themselves.

Frontier may have been following the letter of the rule, but from an outside perspective, it makes it seem like they're giving everybody the shaft. Taking the extra step to help people out and show some understanding goes a long way. Back then, I chose them because I knew what I was going to get. Now, well...should I choose them again, I know what I'm going to get, and what to do if I want extra.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
Bad p.r.? Mayhap. But airlines have survived far worse than this. I look at the amount of "bad p.r." that Spirit gets, or Ryanair, and I scratch my head.

And F9 will survive this. One concern is how people will note the change. I don't know how perceptions of Spirit and Ryanair started out, but it's a big shift in Frontier's perception if people go from seeing them as a full-service airline that's a different animal to lumping them with Spirit.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 21:34:47 and read 9457 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 34):
Yes, she was originally booked on the nonstop on October 4th. They canceled the nonstop flight and there was no ILG-DEN flight on the 4th. Therefore in order to get to the Wedding that was happening on October 5th she would have to leave the day before (October 3rd) and spend 11 hours between flight times and connection times going ILG-DEN and DEN-IAH.

The "discrepancy" is in what she said it was going to cost on that one date (October 3) - at least two days ago when this article first came out and on that date fares were less, and at least partially confirmed by the Flyertalk comment that you linked.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 41):
And F9 will survive this. One concern is how people will note the change. I don't know how perceptions of Spirit and Ryanair started out, but it's a big shift in Frontier's perception if people go from seeing them as a full-service airline that's a different animal to lumping them with Spirit.

I first flew Frontier in 1998 and it wasn't full service then. But whatever the perception of it, that "old" Frontier, however warm and fuzzy, went bankrupt.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-09 21:42:41 and read 9419 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
I first flew Frontier in 1998 and it wasn't full service then. But whatever the perception of it, that "old" Frontier, however warm and fuzzy, went bankrupt.

So, what? Because they went bankrupt they now have the right to screw their customers harder than they would have otherwise? I don't buy that Frontier acting like a stand-up, reputable company is what put them in Chapter 11. No one is expecting warm and fuzzy from F9 these days... but people are expecting that perhaps Frontier won't be out to screw them every chance they get.

You don't have to be unscrupulous to be profitable.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-09 21:57:08 and read 9382 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 43):
So, what? Because they went bankrupt they now have the right to screw their customers harder than they would have otherwise? I don't buy that Frontier acting like a stand-up, reputable company is what put them in Chapter 11.

Frontier hadn't make a full year profit since 2003 until last year - and, of course, some here dispute even that.

It amazes me - for example - that when this new ULCC Frontier strictly enforced strict carry on baggage rules, the message boards went crazy negative. When Air New Zealand did the same thing, most people cheered.

This present issue is unfortunate, but as noted above:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 33):
I've booked on Spirit, and it canceled a flight on me. Spirit just refunded me the fare, and the next day fare was a lot higher. No discount. They also didn't go out of their way to book me on a legacy carrier (e.g. US) at no charge.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-09 22:21:01]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: opethfan
Posted 2013-09-09 22:06:30 and read 9353 times.

I love business hypocrisy: "You cancel on us, you still owe us some of the money. We cancel on you and you owe us some more money!"

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-09-09 22:44:16 and read 9291 times.

Amazing how terrible F9 has become. Guess it is a blessing that they outsourced the outstations with subcontractors who don't care. F9 is no longer focused on providing good customer service. One week they inherit Midwest culture, tbe next they emulate Walmart. The airline is so bipolar anymore. This story is yet another of many black eyes. I know Cliff V. would never have agreed with how piss poor the customers are being treated. The most loyal flyers of Frontier have been slapped across the face! Very tragic to see what has become of this airline.

Consumers like consistency.... Frontier has been consistently starting routes, and cancelling it within a few months. Frontier has consistently made thousands of customers angry lately. Frontier has also consistently pooped on their customers lately. Makes you wonder if there is enough room for 3 ULCCs in this country?

[Edited 2013-09-09 22:50:01]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 06:01:08 and read 8802 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):
While they can offer to either rebook the passenger for no extra charge or refund the fare, they are absolutely prohibited from charging extra to reroute the passengers.

  

I liken this to the increase of prices for building materials before the hurricane.

I'm surprised Kate Hani organization http://www.flyersrights.org/ is not onboard with this as of yet. Might it be an over zealous media.

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 37):
Bias? Or a customer requesting reasonable service?

Bias. Go back and reread what what the writer posted and what I quoted. If you want to narrow it down further the "die hard UA fan" the writer posted was the give away and leaves zero doubt in my mind. And that's fine.

Have you ever flown a airline who didn't offer reasonable service. With more than 200 coach flights under my belt. I can only think of one I would call unreasonable which was being stranded in ORD for two days during a snow event. And only because the airline employees were unresponsive to their pax and left to fend for themselves. I've ran across quite a few bad employees who didn't belong in the service industry.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: n7371f
Posted 2013-09-10 06:04:40 and read 8769 times.

For those new to this long running thread, Frontier can do no wrong - it's always positive 

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: stlgph
Posted 2013-09-10 06:25:05 and read 8602 times.

Southwest seems to have a "relative" policy to this.
I was canceled Laguardia to Chicago Midway the Thursday prior to Memorial Day weekend. The next open seat after that flight was Monday morning.
Newark to Chicago Midway had open seats on both Friday & Saturday but they wanted $375 for the change.

Fast forward to Fourth of July weekend when there were rainstorm problems causing delays out of Newark. I wasn't going to get out in time to make it to Bloomington/Normal. I was re-routed out of Laguardia into O'Hare ... two entirely different airports ... without *any* problem, question, or hesitation on Delta's part.

Not the first time that's happened with Delta, either. Needless to say, they get most of my business.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: rangercarp
Posted 2013-09-10 07:06:18 and read 8253 times.

Legal? Probably. Smart? Certainly not. Assuming it is being reported accurately, it will cost F9 far more than they saved due to the bad press in a new market. And I am a Frontier fan.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: YQBexYHZBGM
Posted 2013-09-10 07:50:12 and read 7872 times.

No one expects a carrier to lose money indefinitely, but since the 1960s and early 70s, no carrier has given ILG a chance long enough for the market to develop, or for many potential passengers to even become aware of the new service! What's more, by announcing the new service too close to the actual start date, many potential passengers, both business and leisure, will already have flights booked on other carriers out of PHL.

Unfortunately, DelDOT has long viewed ILG as a general aviation airport. I don't know if there has ever been talk of subsidizing a carrier's losses during the first year of operation in an attempt to attract a carrier that is willing to stay in town long enough for the market to develop, but I doubt it.

Despite the small population of Delaware as a whole, the city of Wilmington and its suburbs certainly have a large enough population base to support airline service. The city also has a significant corporate presence, but if my observations at ILG are any indication, they love their business jets. In addition, business travelers who expect and demand all the perks just aren't going to fly F9. Sorry Frontier, that's just the way it is.

As I have mentioned in previous posts, while PHL and, to a lesser extent, BWI are "nearby" in absolute geographic terms, getting to either airport to catch an early morning flight can be hellish. Trust me, I have personal experience with this -- a multi-year paving and repainting project on the Girard Point Bridge south of PHL (which one does not even cross when driving to PHL from ILG!) often backs up traffic well beyond the airport exit during the morning rush hour, and as early as 5:30 a.m. The result? I missed my flight, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced this. The situation for BWI is just as bad, since getting there from Wilmington involves driving through Baltimore and its suburbs on both sides. The chances of getting through all that on any of the major through routes during morning rush hour without hitting a traffic jam is about zero. Got an early evening transatlantic flight out of PHL? Well, then you'll deal with afternoon rush hour instead. You could take SEPTA regional rail from Newark (Del.) or Wilmington, but you'd need to go all the way to University City or 30th Street before you can transfer to the Airport Line train and backtrack to reach PHL. Not practical.

Bottom line, I hope ILG someday gets service from a carrier that is in it for the long haul and will figure out how to do it right and make a profit. The market is there, someone just needs to commit to developing it.

Al
YQBexYHZBGM

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-09-10 07:50:24 and read 7817 times.

IF there were a reasonable way to get pax to IAH on the day they'd planned on traveling, or within 1 day in either direction, F9 should have rebooked those pax on those flights at no charge. I've seen NK do that. They should have also offered everyone a refund.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
For those new to this long running thread, Frontier can do no wrong - it's always positive 

         You really get that vibe sometimes, hilarious.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 49):
Fast forward to Fourth of July weekend when there were rainstorm problems causing delays out of Newark. I wasn't going to get out in time to make it to Bloomington/Normal. I was re-routed out of Laguardia into O'Hare ... two entirely different airports ... without *any* problem, question, or hesitation on Delta's part.

Delta appears to be emerging as a leader among legacies in the "giving a damn" department. I've had great C/S from them and even.. wait for it...UA on twitter.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 46):
Consumers like consistency.... Frontier has been consistently starting routes, and cancelling it within a few months. Frontier has consistently made thousands of customers angry lately. Frontier has also consistently pooped on their customers lately. Makes you wonder if there is enough room for 3 ULCCs in this country?

Three? Spirit, Frontier and who else?

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: SiouxATC
Posted 2013-09-10 07:56:48 and read 7759 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 47):
Bias. Go back and reread what what the writer posted and what I quoted. If you want to narrow it down further the "die hard UA fan" the writer posted was the give away and leaves zero doubt in my mind. And that's fine.

A matter of opinion, just like yours. I am a "die hard DL fan" and have flown F9 twice, but would agree with the poster, F9 was in the wrong here. Their service is not even close to what DL or WN offers. I can't say about United because I haven't flown on them in a couple years, but I had no problem with them in the four transatlantic flights I took with them.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 47):
Have you ever flown a airline who didn't offer reasonable service. With more than 200 coach flights under my belt. I can only think of one I would call unreasonable which was being stranded in ORD for two days during a snow event. And only because the airline employees were unresponsive to their pax and left to fend for themselves. I've ran across quite a few bad employees who didn't belong in the service industry.

I am truly glad to hear that. You're lucky. The fact is, I wouldn't call a snow event the airlines' fault.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-10 08:00:07 and read 7729 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 44):
Frontier hadn't make a full year profit since 2003 until last year - and, of course, some here dispute even that.

I'm not sure how this is even remotely related to Frontier doing the right thing for their customers, unless your argument is that Frontier's business model is so fundamentally flawed that they simply cannot make a profit and behave ethically at the same time. If so, just name it Air Halliburton and be done with it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 44):
This present issue is unfortunate

No, it's unethical. Quite a whole different animal, so to speak: "unfortunate" things can and do happen by accident. Being unethical takes effort. At least we can say that Frontier is putting effort into something, I suppose.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-09-10 08:00:43 and read 7732 times.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 49):
Southwest seems to have a "relative" policy to this.
I was canceled Laguardia to Chicago Midway the Thursday prior to Memorial Day weekend. The next open seat after that flight was Monday morning.
Newark to Chicago Midway had open seats on both Friday & Saturday but they wanted $375 for the change.

Fast forward to Fourth of July weekend when there were rainstorm problems causing delays out of Newark. I wasn't going to get out in time to make it to Bloomington/Normal. I was re-routed out of Laguardia into O'Hare ... two entirely different airports ... without *any* problem, question, or hesitation on Delta's part.

Not the first time that's happened with Delta, either. Needless to say, they get most of my business.

So Delta was willing to change your originating airport with no charge?

Tugg

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-10 08:01:29 and read 7710 times.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 52):
Three? Spirit, Frontier and who else?

Allegiant

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Ski747
Posted 2013-09-10 08:11:48 and read 7640 times.

To be short I have read Airliners.net for years. I never respond to posts but enjoy reading everyone's responses. Having worked for Frontier in IAH I do have to say this is not standard Frontier and just shows the change to a true ULCC. I no longer work for Frontier as I have moved on recently, but this would not be standard practice and the customer would be #1. Frontier is wrong in every aspect of this scenario and this is only for profit. I also worked for Spirit before Frontier and they are starting to adapt and follow that model. It is very disappointing but with the new ownership on the horizon and Republic saying adios, look for more of this. Frontier has a loyal following in DEN but with the changes this may change overnight. The re-route charge screams Spirit in everyway. Look for more drastic changes down the pipeline. The animal is finally coming out and is hungry for dollars.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 08:18:56 and read 7558 times.

That is very surprising. I fly F9 all the time and I am a summit with them. I am also Medallion on Delta. My F9 flights are almost without exception non-stop so I don't have to worry about this but it does make me wary of moving some of my connecting flights over to them.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-09-10 09:10:11 and read 7179 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
For those new to this long running thread, Frontier can do no wrong - it's always positive

Your anti-Frontier bias is showing  

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: nkops
Posted 2013-09-10 09:21:10 and read 7082 times.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 51):
Unfortunately, DelDOT has long viewed ILG as a general aviation airport

I know the airport is run by the DRBA, are they part of DelDOT?

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 09:45:45 and read 6875 times.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 52):
Delta appears to be emerging as a leader among legacies in the "giving a damn" department

Not according to a corebrands poll. You must be one of the lucky ones. As recently as a month ago DL made the top of the bottom list here. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-brands-of-the-year-220326371.html I suppose it's hit or miss.

"The least respected brands are 1. Delta, 2. Philip Morris, 3. H&R Block, 4. Denny's, 5. Big Lots, 6. Best Buy, 7. J.C. Penney, 8. Capital One, 9. Rite Aid, 10. Foot Locker."

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 09:59:26 and read 6732 times.

Quoting Ski747 (Reply 57):
Having worked for Frontier in IAH I do have to say this is not standard Frontier and just shows the change to a true ULCC

I tend to agree; you seem to hear about these kind of stories east of the Mississippi in the ULCC model and less in West in what I still call the LCC model; which leads me to believe it's may be the bottom feeders in the media searching for a story. Sob content sells advertisement.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-10 10:07:24 and read 6672 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 62):
which leads me to believe it's may be the bottom feeders in the media searching for a story

If the media was searching for a story, as you allege, then why wouldn't the F9 PR people do something to set the record straight? Indeed, F9 confirmed the story as true. So how exactly is this bottom feeding again?

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: tlecam
Posted 2013-09-10 10:24:15 and read 6549 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 61):
Not according to a corebrands poll. You must be one of the lucky ones. As recently as a month ago DL made the top of the bottom list here. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-brands-of-the-year-220326371.html I suppose it's hit or miss. "The least respected brands are 1. Delta, 2. Philip Morris, 3. H&R Block, 4. Denny's, 5. Big Lots, 6. Best Buy, 7. J.C. Penney, 8. Capital One, 9. Rite Aid, 10. Foot Locker."

Brand respect and customer service levels ("give a damn") are not the same thing.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-10 10:46:34 and read 6448 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 55):
So Delta was willing to change your originating airport with no charge?

Did for me, too.

DL LAX-TPA canceled. They put us up in hotels that night for connecting flight the next morning. That flight was overbooked of course, so I offered to fly from SRQ later in the day if they gave me a credit with enough value to cancel out the cost of a rental car. They gave $200 I think? On top of the original voucher they gave for the first cancel. So I drove back to SRQ, saw relatives, flew out later.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 10:59:39 and read 6346 times.

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 53):
but would agree with the poster, F9 was in the wrong here

No argument there.

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 53):
I wouldn't call a snow event the airlines' fault.

You have to understand the circumstances surrounding the event. At the end of the day it all came down to the four hour rule in the carriers CoC. Some two months later we the carrier reimbursed me for my hotel for a weather event because the carrier couldn't get me to my destination in the same day.

It was suppose to be an uneventful five hour SEA-DCA flight with a scheduled fifty minute one stop in ORD with no change of aircraft. We had already flown from KTN (Ketchikan, Alaska) to SEA earlier that morning. After we pushed from the gate in SEA ATC sent us to a bullpen waiting area for a good two hours. SEA ATC allowed us to depart. We flew for three and a half hours; circled ORD for a good half hour and finally landed in a sideways snowstorm with a lot of chop. After another hour we were allowed to deplane into the terminal (at least we had a gate) Not wanting to get too wordy; it all went downhill from there in the world known as airline customer service where practice is suppose to make it perfect but rarely does.

After another hour the terminal the ORD gate agents sent pax on wild goose chases to get rebook; most were turned away and left to fend for themselves. You would think airlines operating in ORD have had enough practice to make it work. I doubt we were the first weather event to close the airport. I lay blame on the airline leaderships lack of ability to empower their people at the deckplate to make decisions. In all fairness some of it was riding on ORD decision to ultimately close the airport. That happened three hours after we landed in ORD.

After several calls and only by sheer luck we found a Sheraton with three rooms located some twenty miles from O'Hare. Oh and under Chicago city ordnance cab fare is allowed to double in a snow event; it did. We gave the hotel information to a Canadian who we befriended on the flight and split the cab fare with him. Late the next day we left ORD for DCA.

In the lessons learned arena I will never route myself or allow a third party to route me through ORD between November and March.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 11:17:30 and read 6222 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
For those new to this long running thread, Frontier can do no wrong - it's always positive

It surely can do wrong - and has. But it isn't always wrong, it isn'i always bad which is the impression one might get from that long-running thread.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 54):
No, it's unethical. Quite a whole different animal, so to speak: "unfortunate" things can and do happen by accident.

I've had a lot go "unfortunate" things happen to me that didn't happen by accident.

I don't know how it is unethical to offer a refund, but each to their morality.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 11:28:07 and read 6123 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
I don't know how it is unethical to offer a refund, but each to their morality.

I'd argue it is unethical because it would seem that the c of c suggests the following and they aren't following it (although it is ambiguous as to what order the options are processed or if it is at the airlines discretion which arrangement is selected.)

C. Schedule Change -- When a passenger is delayed
because of a change in the Airline’s schedule,
arrangements will be made to:

1) Transport the passenger over its route system to the
destination, next stopover
point, or connecting point
shown on its portion of the ticket, without stopover when possible.
2) Refund the cost of the ticket or unused portion of the ticket in accordance with
Rule 260 - Involuntary
Refunds
.
3) If onward transportation cannot be provided within
3 hours of the original schedule arrival, the passenger
may be rebooked on another carrier with which the Airline has Ticketing and Baggage agreements

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 11:33:50 and read 6102 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 68):
I'd argue it is unethical because it would seem that the c of c suggests the following and they aren't following it (although it is ambiguous as to what order the options are processed or if it is at the airlines discretion which arrangement is selected.)

This doesn't seem ambivalent to me:

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 68):
2) Refund the cost of the ticket or unused portion of the ticket in accordance with
Rule 260 - Involuntary Refunds

Frontier offered a refund.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 11:36:53 and read 6055 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
I don't know how it is unethical to offer a refund, but each to their morality.

You tout this they gave a refund like they were doing the pax a favor. Not even Ryan Air would attempt to cancel a flight and not offer pax a refund but when you just offer a refund especially when there is an alternative on your own carrier (its bookable by the way, its not like a link the 2 together) it just screams "Screw you, we don't care". It also says to people you can't rely on Frontier to get you to your destination. They offered a promotional fare to get people to try their service out of Wilmington, they knew that there is no way another carrier is going to offer the same fare or close from PHL or BWI, So if they cancel and just offer a refund without the passengers paying the higher rate of the other airlines they have to cancel their trip. If canceling the trip wasn't bad enough, I don't think it would be too far fetched that people would purchase non-refundable car and hotel reservations. Now they are stuck pqying for stuff they can't use. '

I guess the moral of the story is don't book Frontier if you can't afford to cancel your trip. Frankly in the case of Frontier ULCC is starting to stand for "Ultra Low Class Carrier"

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 11:49:23 and read 5984 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 70):
You tout this they gave a refund like they were doing the pax a favor.

I don't think of it as a favour.   

I'd respond to the Ryanair comment if I understood it.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 11:49:33 and read 5995 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 69):
This doesn't seem ambivalent to me:

It also says: 1) Transport the passenger over its route system to the
destination, next stopover
point, or connecting point
shown on its portion of the ticket, without stopover when possible.

Which is possible correct?

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 11:56:24 and read 5939 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 63):
F9 confirmed the story as true

You missed my point. Yes according to the Delaware article F9 informed pax they would be charged for the DEN reroute. I'm not condoning that. I ultimately hope F9 comes to their senses. They will have too if it's deemed a CoC violation or potentially pay a hefty fine. The FAA as of lately is the proverbial speed cop writing citations. They read these boards. I know my ex boss who was the Deputy Secretary of the federal DOT under the Bush 2 Administration. does.

IMO the lesser of the two evils is to honor a bad route decision made by them and fly existing ticket holders to their destination at no additional cost to the pax. If they don't I think its going to come back and bite them in a bad way in the bottom feeding media. You have to wonder why the Denver Post (a certain reporter) who constantly wrote more negative than positive stories about F9. Its a media trend and a negative one at that.

As a generalized statement ULCC including F9 in the east gets beat up more often when compared to the LCC model in DEN. In this instance it is deserved as it is has been reported. It happened when F9 left Columbia, Missouri too.

Quoting tlecam (Reply 64):
Brand respect and customer service levels ("give a damn") are not the same thing.

Decipher it any way you want. One is a byproduct and directly related to the other.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 11:58:07 and read 5915 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 72):
It also says: 1) Transport the passenger over its route system to the
destination, next stopover
point, or connecting point
shown on its portion of the ticket, without stopover when possible.

Yes, it does say that. But that doesn't negate #2, as quoted by you.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-09-10 12:02:51 and read 5877 times.

I can't believe not one person has mentioned, "travel insurance" It gives the consumer financial protection, it's really pretty cheap, and covers non-refundable air, car and hotel rates. Although I know very few people who pre-pay for cars & hotels.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 12:19:02 and read 5776 times.

The travel insurance that Frontier offers, doesn't seem to cover cancelations by the airline just events that are related to the pax such as illness of family member lost job, passenger hospitalization, etc

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 12:22:52 and read 5789 times.

Frontier has changed its mind and will offer a reroute of passengers for free.

BRAVO to Frontier for doing the right thing.


http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...ll-rebook-Houston-fliers-no-charge

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 12:22:54 and read 5758 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 74):

Yes, it does say that. But that doesn't negate #2, as quoted by you.

mariner

Correct and therein lies the ambiguity how do you know which option is selected in which case? Is it airlines choice? Passengers Choice?

For example American Says: When cancellations and major delays are experienced, you will be rerouted on our next flight with available seats. If the delay or cancellation was caused by events within our control and we do not get you to your final destination on the expected arrival day, we will provide reasonable overnight accommodations, subject to availability.

US:

Section 08-02
.
I
nvoluntary (Refunds Provided When US Airways is Unable to Accommodate
the Customer)
In the event that US Airways is unable to provide a previously confirmed seat and is unable to reroute the cus
-
tomer either over the routes of US Airways or another airline, US Airways will refund as indicated below:


DL:

Delta’s Li
ability in the Event of Schedule Changes, Delays and Flight Cancellations
In the event of flight cancellation, diversion, delays of greater than 90 minutes, or delays that
will
cause a passenger to miss connections, Delta will (at passenger’s request) cancel the
remaining ticket and refund the unused portion of the ticket and unused ancillary fees in the
original form of payment in accordance with Rule
260 of these condi
tions of carriage. If the
passenger does not request a refund and cancellation of the ticket, Delta will transport the
passenger to the destination on Delta’s next flight on which seats are available in the class
of service originally purchase
d. At Delta’s sole discretion and if acceptable to the passenger,
Delta may arrange for the passenger to travel on another carrier or via ground
transportation. If acceptable to the passenger, Delta will provide transportation in a lower
class
of service, in which case the passenger may be entitled to a partial refund. If space on
the next available flight is available only in a higher class of service than purchased, Delta
will transport the passenger on the flight, although Delta reser
ves the right to upgrade other
passengers on the flight according to its upgrade priority policy to make space in the class
of
service originally purchased.

Heck even NK is more clear:

Rebooking
When a customer holding a confirmed reservation on a flight
whi
ch
will be delayed
because of a schedule irregularity (including but not limited to, a missed connection,
flight cancellation, omission of a scheduled stop, substitution of equipment, a different
class of service
or schedule change), Spirit may
rebook the
customer on Spirit's first
available flight on which seats are available to the customer's
original
destination
without additional charge

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 12:23:10 and read 5775 times.

And since Frontier has decided not to charge for the re-route, it's been an interesting exchange.  

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 12:33:13 and read 5684 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 78):
Correct and therein lies the ambiguity how do you know which option is selected in which case? Is it airlines choice? Passengers Choice?

I don't think it is ambiguous.

I assume best endeavours on the part of the airline and a refund as the bottom line. Frontier once put me on United - against my will, so I declined.

This decision shows the power of media, which I think is unfortunate - that word again - but that's life.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-09-10 12:40:06 and read 5611 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
And since Frontier has decided not to charge for the re-route, it's been an interesting exchange.

What is interesting is that it took a public PR beat-down for them to "decide" to do the only possible correct choice of what they apparently considered as their options. Again, the fact that O'Malley stated that the original ticket price did not "cover the cost" of the other flight options is just mind-bogglingly stupid.

Glad the pressure forced them to change and address their customer's needs.

Tugg

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 12:41:20 and read 5611 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
I assume best endeavours on the part of the airline

"Best endeavours" should have included rerouting thru DEN without addtional charge.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
This decision shows the power of media, which I think is unfortunate - that word again - but that's life.

What being informed of the practice of the airline is now some how wrong. If Frontier has nothing to be ashamed of then what does it matter if its in the paper. If they have not done anything wrong they just got free advertising.

In any event, we disagree on this issue and I can tell you won't be able to have your mind changed so I'm not going to push further. However if Frontier did not offer the only service out of a more convenient airport for me Trenton, I would have stopped flying them because of this.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 12:49:26 and read 5531 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
I don't think it is ambiguous.

I assume best endeavours on the part of the airline and a refund as the bottom line. Frontier once put me on United - against my will, so I declined.

You say you don't think that it is ambiguous and then you proceed to make an assumption of how it should work. I posted the other C of C for a reason, they are clear what is done in what order. I don't see how you can think that jumping right to refund and saying too bad otherwise is the best endeavors of the airline. It's not like they don't fly flights that would have accommodated the passengers.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):

This decision shows the power of media, which I think is unfortunate - that word again - but that's life.

I don't know if that is the case as much as their desire to get sued.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 12:52:32 and read 5532 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 82):
What being informed of the practice of the airline is now some how wrong. If Frontier has nothing to be ashamed of then what does it matter if its in the paper. If they have not done anything wrong they just got free advertising.


So every time the airline does something (carry on baggage fees, say) that the media makes a song and dance about, the airline should change its policy - even if the media perception of it is inaccurate?

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: SiouxATC
Posted 2013-09-10 12:53:05 and read 5534 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 66):
In the lessons learned arena I will never route myself or allow a third party to route me through ORD between November and March.

Bingo, problem solved.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-09-10 12:53:48 and read 5512 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 77):

Frontier has changed its mind and will offer a reroute of passengers for free.

I would assume they've monitored this discussion.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 13:06:19 and read 5406 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 83):
You say you don't think that it is ambiguous and then you proceed to make an assumption of how it should work.

That's how it has always worked for me, so - I have never found it ambiguous.

I can't, obviously, speak for every airline in every circumstance, but Ryanair has a notorious reputation for being unwilling to give even refunds.

That has never happened to me, with Ryanair.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 13:07:11 and read 5408 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 84):

This story was not inaccurate or even misleading. If United lets say cancels their Philadelphia to Houston non stop service, they wouldn't just offer pax a refund, they would give them other options via ORD, IAD or DEN. Just like Frontier this would cost United more money than if they were flying a nonstop but they would do it to honor their contract.

I know there was atleast 1 person who claimed to have filed a DOT complaint against F9 for this, perhaps that is what caused them to change their mind.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-10 13:08:47 and read 5391 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 84):
So every time the airline does something (carry on baggage fees, say) that the media makes a song and dance about, the airline should change its policy - even if the media perception of it is inaccurate?

First, kindly explain how the media perception here was inaccurate.

Otherwise, yes: in the end, a business succeeds by convincing people to purchase what they have to offer. If the media is making that proposition difficult because they're showcasing a cocked-up decision on the airline's part, then the airline should indeed change its policy. Seems that publicity did its job here.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 13:09:03 and read 5394 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 87):
I can't, obviously, speak for every airline in every circumstance, but Ryanair has a notorious reputation for being unwilling to give even refunds.

That has never happened to me, with Ryanair.

That is because they have a very clear contract of carriage that says (note the at your option part, F9 doesn't delineate who makes the decision in their contract):

9.2 CANCELLATION AND DELAYS

9.2.1 Except as otherwise provided by the Convention or Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004, if we cancel a flight, fail to operate a flight reasonably according to schedule or cease to operate a route, we shall, at your option, either:

9.2.1.1 carry you at the earliest opportunity on another of our scheduled services on which space is available between the same routing points or, alternatively and exceptionally, and subject to specific agreement with you and to the exclusion of any other obligation, arrange for you to travel on one or more of our scheduled flights without making any additional charge either (i) via another airport served by us to your destination airport or (ii) from an alternate airport served by us to your destination airport or (iii) from your airport of origin to an alternate airport served by us within the same country as your original destination or (iv) from an alternate airport served by us to an alternate destination airport within the same country as your original destination; or

9.2.1.2 carry you on the same route to your final destination at a later date at your convenience subject to seat availability; or

9.2.1.3 make a refund in accordance with the provisions of Article 10.2.

9.2.2 If your flight is cancelled or delayed for at least two hours, we will provide you with the text stating your rights, particularly with regard to compensation and assistance. (click here for the text setting out these rights)

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 13:10:54 and read 5387 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 88):
I know there was atleast 1 person who claimed to have filed a DOT complaint against F9 for this, perhaps that is what caused them to change their mind.

Maybe it did - I suggested a complaint to the DOT some time ago.

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
If Frontier has "dropped the ball" - as you claim - then someone should complain to the DOT.

I don't know what else to say.   

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 13:13:39 and read 5376 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 89):
First, kindly explain how the media perception here was inaccurate.

I didn't say it was inaccurate here.

I said even IF the media perception is inaccurate - as in the case of carry on bag fees.

Quoting mariner (Reply 84):
So every time the airline does something (carry on baggage fees, say) that the media makes a song and dance about, the airline should change its policy - even if the media perception of it is inaccurate?

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 13:21:29 and read 5323 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 90):
That is because they have a very clear contract of carriage that says (note the at your option part, F9 doesn't delineate who makes the decision in their contract):

That isn't so clear to other people, Check out the complaints about Ryanair and refunds. This is just the first hit on Google - there are countless more;

Getting A Refund With Ryanair (by EGFF Apr 27 2006 in Civil Aviation)

The Ryanair refunds (or lack thereof) over the volcanic ash claims had to go to court.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-10 13:26:00]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Tigerguy
Posted 2013-09-10 13:28:51 and read 5280 times.

Now that F9 has changed its mind and decided not to charge the extra money, this raises an interesting question. As I and others have said, whether they have to or not, the right move would be to not demand any additional costs in this situation. Let's say this happens again the next time they cut a route, but it's not a group of 14 people going to a wedding. Maybe it's a decidedly less newsworthy man taking a trip to a convention. Does this set a precedent for not asking for the fare difference?

And if said man is faced with the fare difference under the "axed route" circumstance, might he catch a break after mentioning this story he read a while back on airliners.net?    Anywho, I know it's a lot of ifs, but I would hope that something like this doesn't come up again. And, by that, I mean that they ought to do right by the wedding travelers in the spotlight and the unknown convention traveler alike--as opposed to backing off only after the story sees the light of day (or whatever reason that finally compelled them to back off).

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 13:38:48 and read 5212 times.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 94):
And if said man is faced with the fare difference under the "axed route" circumstance, might he catch a break after mentioning this story he read a while back on airliners.net? Anywho, I know it's a lot of ifs, but I would hope that something like this doesn't come up again. And, by that, I mean that they ought to do right by the wedding travelers in the spotlight and the unknown convention traveler alike--as opposed to backing off only after the story sees the light of day (or whatever reason that finally compelled them to back off).

If I was F9 i might suggest a slight modification to this part of their C of C to read as follows:

C. Schedule Change -- When a passenger is delayed
because of a change in the Airline’s schedule,
arrangements at the Airlines sole discretion[/b} will be made to [b]either:

1) Transport the passenger over its route system to the
destination, next stopover
point, or connecting point
shown on its portion of the ticket, without stopover when possible.

or
2) Refund the cost of the ticket or unused portion of the ticket in accordance with
Rule 260 - Involuntary
Refunds
or

3) If onward transportation cannot be provided within
3 hours of the original schedule arrival, the passenger
may be rebooked on another carrier with which the Airline has Ticketing and Baggage agreements

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 13:48:09 and read 5149 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 95):
3) If onward transportation cannot be provided within
3 hours of the original schedule arrival, the passenger
may be rebooked on another carrier with which the Airline has Ticketing and Baggage agreements

That assumes that the airline has ticketing and baggage agreements with other airlines. That is a legacy airline concept.

Ryanair has no such agreements, nor, I believe (?) does Spirit.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-10 13:49:42 and read 5157 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 96):

That assumes that the airline has ticketing and baggage agreements with other airlines. That is a legacy airline concept.

Ryanair has no such agreements, nor, I believe (?) does Spirit.

mariner

Edit:

Interline Ticketing Agreements

Frontier maintains interline ticketing agreements with other airlines, allowing you to book convenient connecting itineraries to more destinations around the world. Frontier has interline electronic ticketing arrangements with each of its interline partners, allowing you to travel on both airlines with one electronic ticket. When you connect between Frontier and any interline partner, your baggage will be checked through to your final destination provided you have one ticket for travel on Frontier and your connecting flight on the other airline. Frontier may also use its interline partners for reprotection in the unlikely event of a Frontier flight irregularity as explained in our Customer Commitment.

Frontier currently has interline airline ticketing agreements with:

Frontier Ticketing Agreements with Other Airlines
Air New Zealand NZ Hawaiian Airlines HA
Air Pacific FJ Iberia Airlines IB
Alaska Airlines AS Icelandair FI
American Airlines AA Korean Airlines KE
Asiana Airlines OZ LACSA Airlines LR
Avianca Airlines AV Qantas Airways QA
Cape Air 9K Singapore Airlines SQ
China Airlines CI Sun Country Airlines SY
Emirates Airlines EK TACA Airlines TA
Era Aviation 7H US Airways US
EVA Airways BR Virgin Australia VA
Great Lakes Airlines ZK Virgin America VX
Hainan Airlines HU

[Edited 2013-09-10 13:52:34]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 13:55:47 and read 5118 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 97):
Correct, IIRC they do still have arrangements with at least UA. If they don't have that anymore than they should remove it from their C of C.

If you mean Frontier, United isn't on their list of interline partners. It used to be, but it was ended about the time they went ULCC.

http://www.flyfrontier.com/customer-...ce/travel-support/air-partnerships

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 14:28:51 and read 4912 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 96):
That assumes that the airline has ticketing and baggage agreements with other airlines. That is a legacy airline concept.

We have to remember there are a few sole source markets where no other competition exist including TTN and ILG.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 97):
Cape Air 9K

Now if they could turn the 9K interline agreement into a code share which would allow some New England flying from TTN.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 14:34:51 and read 4876 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 76):
The travel insurance that Frontier offers, doesn't seem to cover cancelations by the airline

I want to say travel insurance is also available through quite a few third party vendors . I believe AAA sells it. I'm not sure if you have the purchase the ticket from AAA.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-10 15:15:04 and read 4695 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 65):
DL LAX-TPA canceled.

Of course, that's backward. TPA-LAX non-stop canceled, not tother way round.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: F9animal
Posted 2013-09-10 15:56:07 and read 4603 times.

Glad to see Frontier did the right thing. Siegel has sent letters out to employees, requesting they provide great customer service. It sure makes it impossible when the company makes it impossible to do so in situations like this. Leadership at Frontier needs a serious lashing.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 16:54:50 and read 4485 times.

So provide great customer service while we give you customer unfriendly policies to enforce??

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 17:10:10 and read 4443 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 54):
I'm not sure how this is even remotely related to Frontier doing the right thing for their customers, unless your argument is that Frontier's business model is so fundamentally flawed that they simply cannot make a profit and behave ethically at the same time. If so, just name it Air Halliburton and be done with it.

Well, Spirit or Allegiant, perhaps.

In a very short space of time (really), we will know whether "the investor" has been persuaded that ULCC Frontier can be a commercially viable - and thus potentially profitable - enterprise. If the investor is not persuaded, then all the present indications are that Frontier may cease to exist (obviously to the joy of some here).

I don't know which way it will go. My best guess is that survival is slightly better than even money, but that's only a guess and I am ready for any outcome, positive or negative.

However, if the investor is persuaded, then Frontier will become more like a ULCC, not less - more like Ryanair and Spirit, not less. Which means, I guess, we can look forward to more threads like this on a.net..

Oh, joy. 
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 103):
So provide great customer service while we give you customer unfriendly policies to enforce??

If I remember correctly, you were quite seriously delayed (24 hours?) on Frontier TTN-MCO earlier this year and I seem to remember you posting that Frontier treated you quite well, or at least, to your satisfaction.

So were those policies wrong?

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-10 17:39:35]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-09-10 17:40:47 and read 4366 times.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 51):

I don't know if there has ever been talk of subsidizing a carrier's losses during the first year of operation in an attempt to attract a carrier that is willing to stay in town long enough for the market to develop, but I doubt it.

I don't like the idea of subsidy for routes. I think the carrier just needs to select better routes or reduce frequency. FL used subsidy to fly ACY-ATL 2x daily, even though it's own network offered a lot of connection options after ATL. From my observation, I used to notice that the ACY-ATL fares on FL were higher than PHL-ATL on FL.

NK doesn't use subsidy although it just flies it 1x daily for half of the year. And, it doesn't rely so much on connections.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 51):
Bottom line, I hope ILG someday gets service from a carrier that is in it for the long haul and will figure out how to do it right and make a profit. The market is there, someone just needs to commit to developing it.

I do hope F9 builds ILG. ILG has longer runways than TTN, more hotel options within 5 miles than TTN does, no nimby problems, and it's straight at the end of the NJ Turnpike - and not in a dark unknown corridor like TTN or in the boonies like ACY, and is more central to the Philly region (including areas like West Chester, King of Prussia) than ACY is to these places, to be an PHL overflow/LCC airport. TTN is closer to Northern and Central NJ, but I think ILG's better highway access could give it an edge over TTN when F9 decides where to grow between the two of them.

It'd be nice if there was regional bus right at ILG. I kind of like the idea of Boltbus serving ILG to DC, and ILG to NYC. Also, it would be great if Delaware had something to offer, atleast something like Parx Casino in the Bensalem area or a Revel like hotel, but that would be another discussion.

I think F9 should build ILG-Florida service as that would be popular.

I hope that ILG-MDW stays also. It's shorter than IAH. Fares from BWI and PHL to MDW on Southwest are somewhat high and weekly United specials from ORD typically exclude PHL and ABE. There is coincidentally a JPMorgan Chase presence in both Wilmington and Chicago and some of the flights for September and October, M-W-F arriving at Chicago before 9am could work for business pax.

IAH was a mistake. Long and overflies many competitor hubs. F9 likely chose the route because Southwest ended PHL-HOU service. But one-stop to Houston at $150 WGA, and even lower nonstop sometimes from BWI and EWR, all at greater frequency/options than a $99 fare on a 3x weekly from F9. So, F9 chose a fare so low, $49 to fill a plane all the way to IAH, which was not sustainable. And clearly not responsible after canceling the route after tickets were sold to pax.

[Edited 2013-09-10 17:42:55]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 17:47:24 and read 4364 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 104):

Let me clarify I was just refering to the recent situation because that is what prompted the email by Siegel to the employees.

Yes I was delayed 26 hours going TTN-MCO. At first they just told us to come back for a late night flight the next day, but when I returned the next day. They did have $200 vouchers for us which I was satisfied with.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 17:51:53 and read 4357 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 106):
Let me clarify I was just refering to the recent situation because that is what prompted the email by Siegel to the employees.

The only Siegel email I have seen since this event didn't mention it. I have seen a recent one in which he has talked about customer service, but in another context.

It is, of course, completely possible that I haven't seen them all.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Boston
Posted 2013-09-10 18:10:01 and read 4311 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 36):
Bias noted. With F9 leaving ABQ you are free to move about the country on the carrier of your choosing.

You're absolutely 100% correct that I'm biased towards UA, and I won't apologize for that. One of the pillars that the airline industry is built on is customer loyalty to an airline. I wish I could've flown UA on my trip, because I know UA will take care of its pax, but F9 pricing for the flight was too hard to pass up. I am free to move about the country on the airline of my choosing and I will be choosing UA or WN in the future.

Quoting SiouxATC (Reply 53):
A matter of opinion, just like yours. I am a "die hard DL fan" and have flown F9 twice, but would agree with the poster, F9 was in the wrong here. Their service is not even close to what DL or WN offers. I can't say about United because I haven't flown on them in a couple years, but I had no problem with them in the four transatlantic flights I took with them.

I'm glad to know there are other people out there who understand the concept of continuing to give their business to an airline who takes care of them like every airline should.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and mine is continuing to be loyal to airlines like UA and WN who take care of their pax and provide a good service (even though "good service" is interpreted a million different ways). F9 didn't show me they deserve my repeat business, and maybe it was just a rough day for them, but that's what can hurt an airline is having an off day, which turns potential repeat customers away. I've had nothing but incredible service from UA (and yes, I've flown UA numerous times around 40+ times, so don't think I had 1 good flight and claim they are amazing because of 1 flight). When flying United is not feasible, I'll be flying Southwest because they've proven to me on multiple trips that they are worthy of my repeat service.

F9 is completely out of line with the whole ILG-IAH issue, which shows potential customers that F9 really doesn't care about their pax. It's a shame that F9 would stoop this low, but that just shows who they really are.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-09-10 18:32:19 and read 4261 times.

F9 is in dire need of new management and I would hope that when they are sold to Indigo (If that is the way it's going to go) that Franke cleans house and gets F9 back to its original core principles of being "A Whole Different Animal" and puts the customer first.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 18:50:01 and read 4217 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 109):
F9 is in dire need of new management and I would hope that when they are sold to Indigo (If that is the way it's going to go) that Franke cleans house and gets F9 back to its original core principles of being "A Whole Different Animal" and puts the customer first.

If it is Franke/Indigo and if he is persuaded, why would he go back ot that money-losing formula? As above:

Quoting mariner (Reply 104):
However, if the investor is persuaded, then Frontier will become more like a ULCC, not less - more like Ryanair and Spirit, not less.


I understand your unhappiness about SBN, but against that we have to set the success of place like BMI.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-10 19:13:40 and read 4183 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 105):
I do hope F9 builds ILG. ILG has longer runways than TTN, more hotel options within 5 miles than TTN does, no nimby problems, and it's straight at the end of the NJ Turnpike - and not in a dark unknown corridor like TTN

I think TTN is more about the 4.5 million populous between the PHL and northern N.J. and the southern NY/NYC catchment area. ILG draws from PHL but not the NYC catchment area and maybe the area north of BWI. A family friend who lives in Staten Island tells me they have flown out of TTN. I vaguely recall them telling us it involved a ferry ride to get from S.I. to TTN.

I've also heard ILG came about from the investment group who owns the Trenton Titans hockey team who are a bunch of Delaware businessmen from credit card America. They wooed F9 to open ILG shortly after TTN came to fruition.

Quoting Boston (Reply 108):
I'll be flying Southwest because they've proven to me on multiple trips that they are worthy of my repeat service.
WN is mine as well which became a favorite airline in 1993-ish when they invited my them three year old son into the cockpit before we left BWI for LAS via MDW and OMA. They impressed me so much that I purchased their stock On several occasions I have claimed my luggage from AS and rechecked it with WN in SEA absent the baggage interline agreement to fly WN non-stop from SEA to BNA. Had I stayed on a AS partner in SEA I would have transferred at DFW, ORD or ATL earlier MSP was also in play.

Quoting Boston (Reply 108):
F9 is completely out of line with the whole ILG-IAH issue
No argument their.

[Edited 2013-09-10 19:35:46]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: rampart
Posted 2013-09-10 19:15:14 and read 4188 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 105):
I do hope F9 builds ILG. ILG has longer runways than TTN, more hotel options within 5 miles than TTN does, no nimby problems, and it's straight at the end of the NJ Turnpike - and not in a dark unknown corridor like TTN or in the boonies like ACY, and is more central to the Philly region (including areas like West Chester, King of Prussia) than ACY is to these places, to be an PHL overflow/LCC airport. TTN is closer to Northern and Central NJ, but I think ILG's better highway access could give it an edge over TTN when F9 decides where to grow between the two of them.

Dark unknown corridor?? What wrong turn did you make? In addition to being located in a rural to affluently suburban portion of NJ, TTN has its own exit off of the I-95 loop around Trenton, with rapid access across the river to PA (pretty much a straight shot to King of Prussia) and access to the east to the Turnpike, I-195, Rt. 1, and I-295. I've had no problem finding TTN. I did get off on the wrong highway once in Delaware and found myself at ILG, but the couple times I did try to find ILG on purpose, just to check out the airport, I never got the right highway. ILG is as much south of Philly as TTN is north, nothing central about it. Nothing against ILG, hope they keep up the progress, but let's not overstate the access.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 20:34:36 and read 4053 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 104):
However, if the investor is persuaded, then Frontier will become more like a ULCC, not less - more like Ryanair and Spirit, not less. Which means, I guess, we can look forward to more threads like this on a.net..
Oh, joy.

If they are going to keep doing stuff like this then you are correct "Oh, Joy". I can stand with fees for drinks, TV, baggage and even carry-ons (In addition sardine like seating ala NK 28" is more of a personal preference not liking that) but doing stuff like this and saying well technically all we have to do is offer a refund is where I get upset.

Quoting mariner (Reply 107):
The only Siegel email I have seen since this event didn't mention it. I have seen a recent one in which he has talked about customer service, but in another context. It is, of course, completely possible that I haven't seen them all.

I do have to apologize somewhat I didn't read the post accurately as I was doing something else at the time. I thought that Siegel sent the email after this incident and F9Animal was linking the two together.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 111):
I vaguely recall them telling us it involved a ferry ride to get from S.I. to TTN.

Unless they took mass transit and went up to Manhattan to get to a train to Jersey (the PATH to Newark to connect with NJ Transit or Amtrak to Trenton), they wouldn't have taken a ferry. I also think odds are they didn't do that because cabs from the Trenton rail station to TTN are expensive. Driving SI to TTN is only an hour so its not out of the question.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 111):
I've also heard ILG came about from the investment group who owns the Trenton Titans hockey team who are a bunch of Delaware businessmen from credit card America. They wooed F9 to open ILG shortly after TTN came to fruition.

Thats very interesting, the Trenton Titans Hockey team was on my flight MCO-TTN on February 3rd.

Quoting rampart (Reply 112):
Nothing against ILG, hope they keep up the progress, but let's not overstate the access.

If your coming from the Jersey Turnpike over the Delaware Memorial Bridge, it is pretty easy to get to, coming from PA and I-95, its a little harder.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-09-10 20:41:00 and read 4044 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
So are you suggesting she's telling fibs in the article?
Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
From the article:

"Maureen Cushing, the bride’s aunt, said she was told that if she chose to take a connecting flight, she would need to leave the prior day and then spend 11 hours in transit."
Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
She said she'd have to leave the day before. You said she could do it in one day.

Oh for the love of...

Mariner, you're missing that there are two different thoughts here. One, due of their schedule change she'd now have to leave the day before she originally planned. Two, that connection will now take 11 hours.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 21:47:44 and read 3918 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 113):
If they are going to keep doing stuff like this then you are correct "Oh, Joy". I can stand with fees for drinks, TV, baggage and even carry-ons (In addition sardine like seating ala NK 28" is more of a personal preference not liking that) but doing stuff like this and saying well technically all we have to do is offer a refund is where I get upset.

Okay. Oh, joy. I don't really understand why it is emotive ("upset") when it hasn't happened to you, but each to their own.

Frontier has widely announced that it is becoming ULCC - like Spirit and Allegiant - with all that implies, and there have been several posts about how other ULCC's would handle a similar situation.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 114):
One, due of their schedule change she'd now have to leave the day before she originally planned. Two, that connection will now take 11 hours.

I got that. However, concerned that I did not express it clearly enough (worded it badly - LOL), I posted it again:

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
The "discrepancy" is in what she said it was going to cost on that one date (October 3) - at least two days ago when this article first came out and on that date fares were less, and at least partially confirmed by the Flyertalk comment that you linked.

I assumed that people would have read the article, but for those who didn't, here it is:

"They were told that paying for a connecting flight would cost an additional $376 per person, each way, Bafundo said."

She says that Frontier wanted an "additional" $376 per person - each way. Given the $50 per person she has already paid that makes a total of $426 per person each way.

It is still (or was this morning) hard to find a Frontier fare above about $175 each way - except, unhappily, on the date in question, October 3, which is (and was then) pretty solidly booked.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-10 22:05:58]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-10 22:48:26 and read 3848 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 115):
Okay. Oh, joy. I don't really understand why it is emotive ("upset") when it hasn't happened to you, but each to their own.

Defination of Upset: Adjective "unhappy, disappointed, or worried". In this case I am unhappy and disappointed (not worried)., Why do I care about others in this situation? In addition to being a caring person, it causes me to question whether I can further travel with Frontier and whether this will happen to me.

I'm still trying to find a travel insurance policy that allows for coverage when an airline cancels your trip. In fact, Travel Guards premium top of the line coverage specifically excludes airline cancelation.

[Edited 2013-09-10 22:56:59]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-10 23:24:16 and read 3827 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 116):
Defination of Upset: Adjective "unhappy, disappointed, or worried". In this case I am unhappy and disappointed (not worried)., Why do I care about others in this situation? In addition to being a caring person, it causes me to question whether I can further travel with Frontier and whether this will happen to me.

Fair enough.

I would suggest - only suggest - that this was an unusual confluence of events, but since you don't seem to think a refund cuts it, I doubt I can offer any other words of comfort.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-11 08:56:50 and read 3614 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 115):
Frontier has widely announced that it is becoming ULCC - like Spirit and Allegiant -

I missed that memo. As an outsider looking in I see very little if any forward progression to the ULCC model in DEN .
I think F9 is best understood at least at the moment as a hybrid. A ULCC in the East and a LCC in the West. Perhaps the potential sale is slowing things down.

Excluding the occasional fare sale I've not seen the fare slashing in DEN when compared to TTN and ILG. The primary reason TTN and ILG works is that there is said to be a long term abundance of cheap fuel in the mid Atlantic region.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-11 09:09:07 and read 3592 times.

Yes, I've always thought it was the tale of two airlines and out west it was a LCC that had some ULCC policies . It needs to lower its fares out west or stop with the policies like charging for soda out west.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-11 09:48:56 and read 3506 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 104):
In a very short space of time (really), we will know whether "the investor" has been persuaded that ULCC Frontier can be a commercially viable - and thus potentially profitable - enterprise. If the investor is not persuaded, then all the present indications are that Frontier may cease to exist (obviously to the joy of some here).

I don't know which way it will go. My best guess is that survival is slightly better than even money, but that's only a guess and I am ready for any outcome, positive or negative.

However, if the investor is persuaded, then Frontier will become more like a ULCC, not less - more like Ryanair and Spirit, not less. Which means, I guess, we can look forward to more threads like this on a.net..

I'm still puzzled how this relates to the current situation. Just because F9 goes the ULCC route doesn't compel it to act unethically. I would submit that if Frontier (or really any other business) cannot make a profit in an ethical way, perhaps going away entirely wouldn't be so bad.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-09-11 10:19:01 and read 3451 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 76):
The travel insurance that Frontier offers, doesn't seem to cover cancelations by the airline just events that are related to the pax such as illness of family member lost job, passenger hospitalization, etc

I would never buy travel insurance from an airline, there are several independent travel insurance companies, Travel America comes to mind, that offer comprehensive delay and cancellation insurance, if a carrier changes you more than 12 hours, it covers cost of air, hotel and car reservations, plus costs of extra hotel costs if you are stuck someplace.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-11 10:33:24 and read 3430 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 118):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 119):

Something else that may be in play is DEN is said to be one of the highest cost airports to work out of in the U.S.

I want to say not so long ago DEN held the dubious title as being the most expensive airport to operate from.

High cost doesn't abode well for the ULCC model. NK offers sa few flights out of DEN but nothing compared to the volume F9 does as a LCC hub. G4 operates out of COS. http://www2.allegiantair.com/interactive-routemap http://www.spirit.com/routemaps.aspx

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-11 11:32:53 and read 3382 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 118):
I missed that memo. As an outsider looking in I see very little if any forward progression to the ULCC model in DEN .

Here are some links that track the progress, from when it began to the latest moves:

Is Frontier Turning Into A Ulcc & Big Exec Changes (by seatback Jan 26 2012 in Civil Aviation)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...s-its-flights-off-expedia/1947109/

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...heap-tickets-on-another-site.html/

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2013/0...-charge-for-drinks-overhead-space/

http://boardingarea.com/ghettoife/20...y-to-be-an-ultra-low-cost-carrier/

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 120):
I'm still puzzled how this relates to the current situation. Just because F9 goes the ULCC route doesn't compel it to act unethically.

We seem to disagree at the core, you and I, because I don't agree that it is unethical if a refund is offered, and the Spirit example has been cited many times. And then there's Allegiant...

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-11 12:24:40]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-11 12:41:36 and read 3282 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 123):
We seem to disagree at the core, you and I, because I don't agree that it is unethical if a refund is offered, and the Spirit example has been cited many times. And then there's Allegiant...

We seem to disagree, indeed. I think it's nice how they "offered" a refund, but I'd refer you to the difference between "offer", which infers that there is an alternative available, and "compel", where there is not. What was the passengers' alternative if they decided not to accept the refund? There wasn't any, other than forfeiting the money. So it's wasn't really an offer.

Marketing one item at one price but only really selling another item at a higher price is called bait and switch. In many cases it's illegal, in nearly all cases it's unethical, and it is precisely what Frontier did here. I don't really see how their behavior here is at all defensible, even by the hardcore F9 fanboys.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-11 13:03:30 and read 3244 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 124):
We seem to disagree, indeed. I think it's nice how they "offered" a refund, but I'd refer you to the difference between "offer", which infers that there is an alternative available, and "compel", where there is not.

I wasn't present at the conversation, I don't know what words were used, and since you quarrel with the words I use (such as "unfortunate") I'm not sure that we can get anywhere.

But since even the first line of the article in the OP states "luck" (fortune?) I'll try. It is "unfortunate" that the date in question happened to be a date when ILG-DEN was very well booked and the fare differential was high - the other example given in this thread has a lower price. And it is, at least in part, that high differential that caught the media attention.

This is but one of many complaints about Allegiant - absent a re-route at any price - but equally unfortunate:

http://mythreecents.com/showReview.cgi?id=110646

"Allegiant Air Lines - Plan For A Vacation And They Destroy The Trip Before Taken"

But which attracted no media attention at all and the critical issue is that the refund was offered - although the "show" part wasn't. Is that bait and switch?

As to bait and switch I have no evidence that this is happening on any regular basis, and when you use "probably" that is an assumption.

But least part of it is "fortune" again - that there was an alternate routing available at a tiny airport like ILG.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2013-09-11 13:11:51 and read 3230 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):

She should have pushed the issue with Allegiant as their c of c says:

85. Failure to Operate as Scheduled

Cancelled Flights or Late or Irregular Operations and Scheduled Changes – If Carrier, due to a cause beyond Carrier's control as identified in Article 85.B below, cancels or fails to operate any flight according to Carrier's published schedule, or changes the schedule of any flight, Carrier will, at the request of a passenger confirmed on an affected flight:
transport the passenger on another of Carrier's flights on which space is available at no additional charge; or
in the case of a cancellation or delay due to a cause beyond Carrier’s control as identified in Article 85.B below, and provided in the case of delay that the delay is significant, refund the unused portion of the passenger's fare in accordance with Article 90 below; or
in the case of a schedule change made voluntarily by Carrier, and provided the schedule change is significant, refund the unused portion of the passenger’s fare in accordance with Article 90 below.
Except to the extent provided in Article 85.A. above, Carrier shall not be liable for any failure or delay in operating any flight due to causes beyond Carrier's control, including but not limited to, acts of God, governmental actions, fire, weather, mechanical difficulties, Air Traffic Control, strikes or labor disputes, or inability to obtain fuel for the flight in question. Carrier shall use its best efforts to notify all affected passengers promptly of planned schedule changes and service withdrawals.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-11 13:16:37 and read 3224 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):
This is but one of many complaints about Allegiant - absent a re-route at any price - but equally unfortunate:

http://mythreecents.com/showReview.cgi?id=110646

"Allegiant Air Lines - Plan For A Vacation And They Destroy The Trip Before Taken"

But which attracted no media attention at all and the critical issue is that the refund was offered - although the "show" part wasn't. Is that bait and switch?

Is your argument really that Frontier is entitled to be unethical because others are unethical too? If so, that's pretty sad.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-11 13:19:43 and read 3221 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 126):
She should have pushed the issue with Allegiant as their c of c says:

Maybe she should, I wasn't there. Maybe all these people should have done so, perhaps some did:

http://mythreecents.com/reviews/allegiant_air

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-11 13:27:03 and read 3197 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 127):
Is your argument really that Frontier is entitled to be unethical because others are unethical too? If so, that's pretty sad.

Nope.

As I keep saying, I don't regard this as unethical - as long as there is the refund is there (offered, instated, use whatever word you like there).

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-09-11 13:28:19 and read 3195 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 125):
As to bait and switch I have no evidence that this is happening on any regular basis, and when you use "probably" that is an assumption.

That you have no evidence it is happening on a regular basis would imply you have evidence it does, on occasion, still happen. Would that not be a feckless practice by the company?

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-11 13:29:02 and read 3199 times.

Is it just me or is anyone else tired of Mariner's defense that a refund was offered? A refund was offered so that must make it ok, after all they are a ULCC. If this is how ULCCs handle canceling of routes, I'm going back to my mantra of ULCC stands for Ultra Low Class Carrier. You cancel my route, I'm saying a refund is REQUIRED as you are no longer providing me with the service that I contracted for. Its not some grand gesture or a favor.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-11 13:41:12 and read 3164 times.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 130):
That you have no evidence it is happening on a regular basis would imply you have evidence it does, on occasion, still happen. Would that not be a feckless practice by the company?

I have no evidence that it is happening at all - regular or otherwise - but I will always, always, allow that there can be human error.

Yes, I think it would be feckless if it were company policy and then it would be happening on that regular basis.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-11 13:45:24]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-11 13:47:31 and read 3153 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 129):
As I keep saying, I don't regard this as unethical - as long as there is the refund is there

Alright. So what about this case, theoretically?

Passenger buys ultra-low-introductory-fare from Smallville to Bigcity. $59 each way when most carriers charge far more. Passenger gets a really good deal and feels really good about it. A couple of weeks before departure, passenger gets an email where the carrier says "you know, most people on your flight paid more, and we'd like $100 more, or we're not going to transport you like we agreed to". Passenger says no, and the airline gives him a refund. Now, passenger has to book alternate arrangements without as much advance notice, and pays much more than they would have otherwise.

Did the airline act ethically? My bet is that most people would say no. Most people would say it's a shakedown. Under your rules, since the passenger was refunded, all is fair, right?

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-11 13:49:55 and read 3152 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 132):
I have no evidence that it is happening at all - regular or otherwise - but I will always, always, allow that there can be human error.

Yes, I think it would be feckless if it were company policy and then it would be happening on that regular basis.

Hmm. Here, we have confirmation from the company spokesperson with a fairly detailed explanation and defense of the company's behavior. Doesn't sound like human error -- had it been a mistake, the PR response would have been "we're looking into it". That wasn't the case here.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-11 13:58:15 and read 3129 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 124):
Marketing one item at one price but only really selling another item at a higher price is called bait and switch.

Although you define bait and switch eloquently I'm not convinced a bait and switch occurred. There is no evidence of malice.

Citing the three elements or building blocks which make up a contract; the offer, consideration and acceptance all three are present. The travelers purchased tickets between ILG and IAH.

The route cancellation is unfortunate, the carrier by their own CoC has an obligation to honor the contract (the performance) which stated they would carry the passenger between ILG and IAH. Money or the value of the ticket becomes secondary. They have an obligation to fulfill their obligation (the performance) be it circuitous via DEN or any other city.

As a prior federal contracting officer the sea lawyer in me (a pun) The story reads like F9 was evaluating this as a change order. Had it made it to the courts (an administrative law judge) there is no doubt in my mind he or she would have ruled in favor of the traveler. F9 took the high road.

Had F9 closed ILG in its entirety we would have a different scenario and outcome.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-11 14:01:38 and read 3128 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 133):
Did the airline act ethically?

Since that didn't happen here, it is a hypothetical debate about ethics. I know of several cases where pax have flown at a much lower price than the passenger next to them. It happened to me, quite recently.

In this case, all things being equal, the pax would have flown at the agreed price. The route being cancelled was an extreme (I dare not say "unfortunate") circumstance.

Do you really think we're getting anywhere with all this?

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-11 14:09:30 and read 3121 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 134):
Doesn't sound like human error

The "human error" referred to the conversation between the passenger and whomever told them the flight was canned, when you took issue with my use of the word "offered."

But that was my word for it. I wasn't there, I do not know what was said, what words were used, so I cannot be definitive.

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-11 14:21:32 and read 3096 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 131):
I'm going back to my mantra of ULCC stands for Ultra Low Class Carrier

Ouch!

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-11 15:02:00 and read 3039 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 138):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 131):
I'm going back to my mantra of ULCC stands for Ultra Low Class Carrier

Ouch!

I said if this is the kind of way ULCCs handled these things. Frontier did the right thing , even if they had to be nudged enough to see the error of their ways so I will let them off the hook.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Iflymidwexprss
Posted 2013-09-11 16:00:46 and read 3000 times.

Frontier did this same thing when they pulled down MKE- I personally was stuck paying over a thousand dollars to replace my family's reservations from LGA-MKE that 4th of July holiday. Customer service from F9 was atrocious- we were basically told "tough luck, here's a refund." As others have noted, a refund does little good when you've already shelled out for cars and hotels, and it's so close to the travel time that replacement flights are exorbitant.

And to nip in the bud any claims of bias from my username- I'd let go of YX a long time ago and was excited to move into a new future with Frontier, and I get the concept of "use it or lose it"- the issue here is Frontier cancelling routes on short notice and leaving me and many others in an expensive and unpleasant situation, and not seeming to care one bit.

[Edited 2013-09-11 16:07:57]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-11 16:50:25 and read 2932 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 139):
Frontier did the right thing

They did indeed. As much as I like to think in was the thrashing F9 took on A.net I'm sure it was the powers that be who came to their senses. The fair and balanced media is a powerful tool.

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-11 17:07:03 and read 2914 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 141):
They did indeed. As much as I like to think in was the thrashing F9 took on A.net I'm sure it was the powers that be who came to their senses. The fair and balanced media is a powerful tool.

I know for a fact that some of the management types from F9 read FT, so it wouldn't surprise me if they also read a.net. Besides, I'd like to think I made a difference so shh your ruining it LOL

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2013-09-11 19:36:31 and read 2808 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 136):
Do you really think we're getting anywhere with all this?

I suppose not. Our ideas of what doing the right thing looks like are quite different, indeed.

[Edited 2013-09-11 19:41:26]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-09-13 16:28:03 and read 2451 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 112):
Dark unknown corridor?? What wrong turn did you make? In addition to being located in a rural to affluently suburban portion of NJ, TTN has its own exit off of the I-95 loop around Trenton, with rapid access across the river to PA (pretty much a straight shot to King of Prussia) and access to the east to the Turnpike, I-195, Rt. 1, and I-295. I've had no problem finding TTN.

It's not in a well lit area and there is poor signage on the Bear Tavern Road and there is deer around that area in night. F9's Princeton marketing makes it easily to be confused with Princeton's actual airport off Route 206.

From what I remember, the area of 95 around Newtown/Yardley is also 2 lane, 55mph and cops patrolling speed. No businesses like off highway restaurants or hotels and very residential servicing. 29 also isn't a route most are familiar with unless they are going into Trenton for some reason. The desired customer in Princeton/Yardley who might own a half million dollar home will most likely support United. It's a small town/overall area in general to market. TTN is still a great spot for F9 to have some presence but no nearby hotels, NIMBY issues and few amenities within 5 miles of TTN is going to be limiting for F9 besides getting some Jersey traffic that can park and fly from there.

ILG is central between NY and DC, and locally within the Philly region, it's close to not only Delaware, but Malvern-West Chester area, and a quick ride down I-295 or NJTP. I-95 and 476 have traffic but there will be traffic on I95 or 276 to TTN als. Most are fine driving 45 mins-90 mins for a low fare, if low fare is what they are seeking, if F9 goes ULCC and wants a hub, ILG might be a better spot for more growth.

Frontier's low fare and strategy to service markets Southwest dropped like nonstop service to Houston makes Southwest relevant in what Frontier is doing. The legacy carriers also match Southwest. But, many Southwest routes like BWI-MDW and PHL-MDW are very high priced like $180 advance purchase fares for their WGA, even Southwest's one stop like BWI-CLE-MDW isn't priced lower.

The competition isn't as strong as in the west coast where there is VX and other carriers to keep WN in check. B6 barely services the Philly region except for service up to BOS. I haven't found many if any low fare connections via B6 intra east either that AirTran used to provide, e.g. AirTran used to offer some competition, but the effective deletion of it by Southwest wasn't good for Philly.

[Edited 2013-09-13 16:40:43]

Topic: RE: Frontier Cancels ILG-IAH But Charges For A Reroute
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-13 21:02:47 and read 2326 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 144):
It's not in a well lit area and there is poor signage on the Bear Tavern Road and there is deer around that area in night. F9's Princeton marketing makes it easily to be confused with Princeton's actual airport off Route 206.

The signage on Bear Tavern Road coming South from I-95 has been upgraded and is now well marked Confused w/ Princeton airport? Highly unlikely most certainly not EASILY. BTW They have road signs directing people how to get to the airport on Both US 1 South at I-295/I-95 and at on I-195 West at I-295/NJ 29 which are the two major routes into the area. They also have multiple signs on I-95 starting around exit 4 (from the East) and Exit 1 @ NJ state line identifying the exit for the airport.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 144):
TTN is still a great spot for F9 to have some presence but no nearby hotels

Granted ILG has more with the Christiana Mall but TTN has 5 hotels in a 5 mile radius 3 of them within 2 miles (all but one off of I-95 so within 5 minutes).

Courtyard Ewing Princeton 1.1mi
Element Ewing Princeton 1.2 mi
Spring Hill Suites Ewing Princeton South 1.7mi
Trenton Marriott Downtown 4.7 mi
Hampton Inn & Suites Newton (Yardley, PA) 4.5mi

Also Mercer County has recently applied for a SCASD grant for a shuttle bus to Trenton Transit Center with connections to NJ Transit, the Trenton SEPTA line and Amtrak. The bus will also go to the West Trenton Station which is 2 miles away for connections to the West Trenton SEPTA line with service to the Yardley/Langhore area and down to Center City.

[Edited 2013-09-13 21:23:13]


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