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Topic: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: deltadawg
Posted 2013-09-12 20:16:15 and read 12141 times.

I dug out some old People Express timetables and route maps last night looking for something. When I found the route maps I remembered People Express flying to London and Brussels with the 747-100 and perhaps 200's if I recall correctly. Now, I know that when People Express was flying it was not like the LCC's of today, Spirit and Ryan and the like but in its day it was a true LCC.

I flew to Brussels once on People Express with my parents in 1985 as well as some other trips up and down the east coast from ATL. I remember it being very different from DL, UA, Eastern and Piedmont. People Express seemed successful in its transatlantic flights at the time and was considerably lower priced than every other carrier so my question, could this be repeated again? I realize the People Express basically sold out to Continental to keep from going belly up but I remember that their financial woes were more from free spending on expansion and not so much the flights themselves. I recall their London and Brussels service being packed always. The Brussels flight we took was completely sold out.

Could a LCC successfully operate a transatlantic route such as EWR-LGW or IAD-CDG?

What routes would most likely work? Which American city would best support such a venture?

Please comment. Thanks.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: deltaflyertoo
Posted 2013-09-12 20:22:32 and read 12139 times.

You raise good question-I too have wondered this. I wouldn't see why not. I get why LCC for flights 10 hours on (Say west coast to Europe) may not work, but seeing how Jetblue essentially redefined transcon travel (which are give or take close in time to a flight to Europe) and as you point out the success of People Express in the 80s to Europe-it seems conceivable. People thought B6 was off rocker at time to try an almost 6 hour flight with peanuts and coke and live TV. I would think if B6 leased an A330-200 and offered some kind ptv program that wasn't exactly on par w/ say VS of BA but showed at least 10 movies and some audio-did buy on board for deli sandwiches and charged good fares it would work.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Dash9
Posted 2013-09-12 20:27:11 and read 12096 times.

Air Transat and Corsair are LCC that connect YUL to CDG and ORY, respectively. If these city pairs are possible surely there must be others.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-09-12 20:42:16 and read 12014 times.

And the Corsair 747s have more seats than A380s !

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: chepos
Posted 2013-09-12 21:12:03 and read 11900 times.

Icelandair has kinda transformed itself into an LCC, in Y it is all BOB on TATL flights (from my understanding). I believe their fares are considerably lower than other TATL operators. Mind you their flying sectors from some east coast cities are not as long, but flights from SEA, SFB, DEN are 8+ hours.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: BD338
Posted 2013-09-12 21:47:12 and read 11818 times.

I think the main reason is that for the LCCs such as FR, EY, and I'll include WN though not strictly LCC these days, there was far easier and lower hanging fruit to go at before international long haul. Transatlantic requires a huge raft of government, immigration, flight etc. regulations and logistics, i.e costs, to comply with than (relatively) simply flying within the US or Europe. why spend time effort and money on the hard option when there is an easier option to make money and establish a brand. Longer flight times mean less opportunity to use the aircraft for revenue generating, and the RASM is generally going to be lower than short haul. However, I think it is likely to head our way in the next 5 years or so. Not sure the FR model would work for a 7-9 hour flight but a B6 model might be the way to go. I'd be on a B6 TATL flight in a heartbeat.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: bohica
Posted 2013-09-12 22:20:48 and read 11715 times.

Does anyone remember Laker Airways? They were a TATL LCC back in the 1970's. They went bankrupt in 1982 during a recession. They could not get enough people to fly at discounted fares year round to support the operation. One of the final blows to Laker was the winter 81/82 fare war which was a bloodbath. Fares at that time was $200 R/T. They could not compete with Pan Am, TWA, and British Airways as well as other European carriers for flights within Europe.

Here is a Wikipedia link, taken with a grain of salt of course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laker_Airways

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: baexecutive
Posted 2013-09-12 22:21:55 and read 11715 times.

Jet2 are planning a series of transatlantic flights this year and next from a few UK airports to BOS & EWR

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-12 22:28:23 and read 11672 times.

DY is launching a series of flights next year to California on the 787


tortugamon

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-09-12 23:28:57 and read 11528 times.

well, any legacy carrier can offer fill-up tarrifs that easily match LCC fares. That is what they did to Laker and that will go on if a new Laker starts, or MOL goes TATL.

For a legacy carrier the most expensive seat is the one that flies empty. For LCCs to make it work they need to offer premium services as well as cargo. That would be a revolution for FR.

Besides, the holiday airlins in Europe like Condor etc have an established TATL LCC network and they do their job right, they offer premium and fly freight as well.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Someone83
Posted 2013-09-12 23:29:02 and read 11530 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 8):
DY is launching a series of flights next year to California on the 787

They already flies OSL-JFK and ARN-JFK, with OSL-FLL, CPH-FLL and ARN-FLL starting in a few months.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-09-13 00:02:21 and read 11415 times.

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 7):
Jet2 are planning a series of transatlantic flights this year and next from a few UK airports to BOS & EWR

Jet2 has flown to USA before. They have been some shopping trips to New York before Christmas.

Norwegian is a LCC and is currently flying to USA. It may start TATL flights also from LGW in the future.

[Edited 2013-09-13 00:03:15]

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: richcandy
Posted 2013-09-13 00:39:56 and read 11274 times.

Hi

The issue is cost. Any LCC operating trans-atlantic would need to make the airfare much lower that the traditional carriers. This might not be the case anymore but a few years ago I was told by someone at BA that between LON and NYC economy class operated at a loss. They needed the revenue from Club World and First to make the route pay.

Any LCC isn't going to have the luxury of high spending passengers travelling at the front of the aircraft. So not only are they going to have to have lower fares than traditional carries but they are going to have to make the revenue from economy class passengers pay for the flight.

However a route which could be operated by a smaller aircraft, were there is a larger leisure passenger market and little capacity from the traditional carries might work.

Canada is slightly different in that airfares at least from the UK to Canada tend to be higher than fares to the US. Air Transat have been good at picking routes between Europe and Canada which the traditional carries have pretty much ignored.

Alex

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: BrianDromey
Posted 2013-09-13 01:46:48 and read 11088 times.

As richandy points out the issue is cost. Traditionally the LCC's fly 8, less commonly 6, sectors per day, with extriemely short turn times. That is not possible with TATL flying in the same way, partially due to airway restrictions, partially due to time zones.
People imagine LCC's can offer flights to LON-NYC for £59, the reality is that fare already exists! BA's current fare LON-NYC is £103.00

Quote:

1 Adult £ 103.00 £ 385.87 £ 488.87

So after fees, taxes, fuel surcharges, etc can any LCC viably fly LON-NYC for a fare consistently, significantly less than £488.87 with bags, two meals and alcoholic bar included?

Long-haul Low-Fare has yet to be successfully proven. AirAsia X is hardly the roaring success we thought it might be, it is essentially a medium-haul, high-density, widebody operator.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 12):
The issue is cost. Any LCC operating trans-atlantic would need to make the airfare much lower that the traditional carriers. This might not be the case anymore but a few years ago I was told by someone at BA that between LON and NYC economy class operated at a loss. They needed the revenue from Club World and First to make the route pay.

The common belief is that BA's most profitable cabin is World Traveler Plus (Premium Y), followed by Club World (J), World Traveler (Y) and FIRST (F). Im not sure where Cargo fits into that, but it all adds up.

[Edited 2013-09-13 02:35:08]

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-09-13 02:01:45 and read 11034 times.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 13):
can any LCC viably fly LON-NYC for less than £488.87 with bags, two meals and alcoholic bar included?

Wouldn't need to include food, drinks, and luggage. D7 doesn't - nor did it on its 14-hour STN-KUL. Of course, you could pay for it, likewise on their existing services. Irrespective, such will only be a fairly small % of total operating costs on a long-haul flight.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: BrianDromey
Posted 2013-09-13 02:40:02 and read 10905 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):

Sorry - I should have been clearer. I meant cost to the passenger. I have edited the post so it is hopefully clearer.

Interesting quote from Wiki
[quote = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirAsia_X#cite_note-7 ]Several major developments were announced on 10 August 2007. AirAsia X announced its first route from Kuala Lumpur to the Gold Coast. One way fares for this route have been touted to begin at MYR 50 (A$17) excluding taxes and charges, with average return prices to be approximately MYR1,800 (A$598), inclusive of taxes and charges.[7][/quote]

The AirAsiaX wiki page is an interesting re-cap of the history of the long-haul off shoot ,probably not 100% accurate, but a reflection on the difficulties of making long-haul low cost work in an high fuel cost, low asset productivity environment.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-09-13 03:35:26 and read 10728 times.

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
One of the final blows to Laker was the winter 81/82 fare war which was a bloodbath.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
well, any legacy carrier can offer fill-up tarrifs that easily match LCC fares. That is what they did to Laker and that will go on if a new Laker starts, or MOL goes TATL

I thought there were also court cases about this, back to google, but in essence the market forces of copmpetition in and of itself did not kill the venture. It should also be noted that for international travel, politics is also more important, for example, BA could have the UK government talk to the Bahamas government on the possibility of loosing BA service and access to LHR and all its wonderful connections if something was not done about a certain competitor airline.
Trust me, in the fromer colonies where governments still operate under the colonial systems of laws setting the rules and procedures, its not that difficult to have inspections, request for additional paperwork, etc etc etc.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 12):
This might not be the case anymore but a few years ago I was told by someone at BA that between LON and NYC economy class operated at a loss. They needed the revenue from Club World and First to make the route pay.

Funny that when the GFC hit and the premium travel crahsed, they somehow found a way to reconfigure their a/c to ensure that economy not only paid for itself but allowed most airlines to survive. Now that they are recovering, the a/c are once again going premium heavy, go figure.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: gkirk
Posted 2013-09-13 03:43:06 and read 10695 times.

Air Canada Rouge operate YYZ-EDI with 763s

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: cloudboy
Posted 2013-09-13 06:14:37 and read 10339 times.

I think that the age of "LCC" is over anyways. It made a difference at first, when there were significant savings to be found in trying new ways of operating. But since then the main line carriers have since implemented most of those cost savings - what is left really does not add up significantly enough to offset the costs of getting those savings, be it in up front investment or in loss of revenue/passengers.

The only significant gains I can see for new transatlantic players is: if one of the current domestic US or domestic Europe players decides to tap into the transatlantic market; A new entrant decides to offer a completely new or different product, not necessarily on the high end; or an airline based in either the Azores or one of the islands decides to move in with a connecting service, essentially building itself as a mid-atlantic hub of some kind. In fact, I have often wondered if one of the European carriers could decide to make a hub at St. Pierre, and establish a connecting airline serving the northeast US and Canada.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-09-13 06:31:47 and read 10240 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 4):
Icelandair has kinda transformed itself into an LCC,

FI is the original LCC on TATL! FI has been the backpacker airline across the pond for 40+ years. I remember the DC-8s, and the non-stops from LUX to KEF, ORD & JFK, that was where many a summer backpacker started their journey.

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
Does anyone remember Laker Airways?

Sir Freddie Laker has flair, and was a great spokesperson for his airline, Laker Airways served TATL markets for years. I liked those good looking DC-10s.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 12):
Any LCC isn't going to have the luxury of high spending passengers travelling at the front of the aircraft. So not only are they going to have to have lower fares than traditional carries but they are going to have to make the revenue from economy class passengers pay for the flight.

Sounds just like what MP did for lots of years. Yes they had a few seats up front, that were bigger and had better pitch, but there were only a handful of them, and they did not compare to the seats up front on the rest of the carriers. Coach was the vast majority of the seating on their aircraft.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-09-13 06:38:54 and read 10196 times.

There have been TATL LCC type carriers for most of the jet age.

However, they tend to operate from secondary airport pairs rather than the big primary pairs such as JFK-LHR, IAD-FRA, ORD-CDG.

The first LCC I learned about was Iceland Air DC-8 in the summer of 1967. You had to fly from Boston to Kef to Brussels. You had to spend one night at Kef each way. You could not check a bag - everything you took had to be in a carryon - usually a backpack - which might be gate checked at no cost. You could sleep in the terminal at Kef rather than pay for a hotel room. The total R/T airfare with fees was $265.

Only a few travel agents would book the flights due to the low commissions - but there was usually at least one locate near any major college. That was their customer - college students headed for cheap backpacking trips to Europe.

As mentioned above - there are several low fare carriers operating today - you just have to find them and get to / from the airports they serve.

Also as mentioned above - due to the fees and taxes, the majors can near match any fare an LCC would offer to the major city pairs. Like the Ryanair business model - the LCCs will have to fly to secondary airports to keep fees low - for themselves and their customers. You will also be without a lot of rescheduling options is your flight for either direction is delayed or cancelled. Make sure to buy trip insurance, and not make any 'non-refundable, pre-paid' hotel reservations or connecting flights.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: EWRandMDW
Posted 2013-09-13 06:42:31 and read 10172 times.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 1):
I get why LCC for flights 10 hours on (Say west coast to Europe) may not work

If memory serves, PE DID fly 1-2x weekly nonstops between Bay area (OAK or SFO, don't recall which) and BRU! That's got to be at least 10 hr each way.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-09-13 06:56:03 and read 10095 times.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 21):
Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 1):I get why LCC for flights 10 hours on (Say west coast to Europe) may not work

10 hours would be the height of efficiency, with a 2 hour turn round that's as close to maximum utilisation as you can get. The problem is that Europe to US East coast is only around 6.5 hours, meaning that planes need a balancing number of longer routes in order to operate efficiently.
Whilst there's always room to cut costs, operating across the Atlantic has fewer opportunities than intra Europe or US domestic. FR who are ruthless about costs make sure that crews return home each day, over the pond they would need overnight accommodation, narrowbodies can be refuelled and turned round in 20 minutes, not possible with a widebody requiring fuel for 3500 miles, LCC's routinely don't carry freight, can an airline afford to fly a plane transatlantic with a big empty hold ?

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: DL747400
Posted 2013-09-13 07:24:37 and read 9992 times.

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
One of the final blows to Laker was the winter 81/82 fare war which was a bloodbath.

Actually, the final nail in the coffin came when PA and TW and BA applied pressure to convince banks in the US and Europe to not loan Laker any more money. Laker needed the loans to make the payments on their new DC-10s and to cover operating expenses to make it through the recession. Having these loans denied was what sealed Laker's fate. Does this sound like anti-competitive behavior on the part of PA, TW and BA?

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-09-13 07:34:44 and read 9929 times.

Anyone for a summer seasonal U2 BFS/GLA-YHZ? (For Xmas-New Year may work too, but headwinds may force tech-stop westbound).
That if U2 has any ETOPS aircraft.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: flightsimboy
Posted 2013-09-13 08:11:35 and read 10009 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 5):
I think the main reason is that for the LCCs such as FR, EY,

EY? Hopefully this a typo  

And as pointed out Air Canada Rouge and Air Transat are lost cost carriers out of Canada across the Atlantic. In addition Sunwing had flights in the summer to Europe....or were those last summer?

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-09-13 08:31:53 and read 9684 times.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 25):
EY? Hopefully this a typo

I would hope so, considering EY just announced they will be the first airline to offer onboard nannies for families on long haul flights. There are 100-200 English trained nannies, armed with toys, games. They care so you don't have to.  

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-09-13 08:38:15 and read 9770 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 22):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 22):
10 hours would be the height of efficiency, with a 2 hour turn round that's as close to maximum utilisation as you can get. The problem is that Europe to US East coast is only around 6.5 hours, meaning that planes need a balancing number of longer routes in order to operate efficiently.
Whilst there's always room to cut costs, operating across the Atlantic has fewer opportunities than intra Europe or US domestic. FR who are ruthless about costs make sure that crews return home each day, over the pond they would need overnight accommodation, narrowbodies can be refuelled and turned round in 20 minutes, not possible with a widebody requiring fuel for 3500 miles, LCC's routinely don't carry freight, can an airline afford to fly a plane transatlantic with a big empty hold ?

Trans-Atlantic LCC operations can possibly be done successfully with a new game changing aircraft.

An aircraft that operates both domesticly within Europe and the USA and also across the Pond.

If the A320NEO and B737MAX are indeed efficient local and intercontinental aircraft, than we will see Trans-Atlantic LCC flights operated.

LTN-CDG-LTN-JFK-LTN-GLA-LTN etc....

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-09-13 10:58:55 and read 8220 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 20):

The first LCC I learned about was Iceland Air DC-8 in the summer of 1967. You had to fly from Boston to Kef to Brussels.

That was actually Loftleidir from Iceland and the European gateway was LUX not BRU and they were indeed the pioneer LCC/ low fare TATL carrier.

They had a couple of offspins like International Air Bahama, Trek Airways to JNB , all from LUX. After the prop DC6/7 the next step was CL44s and after that DC8-63, on some days they had 3 stretch 8s from LUX to Keflavik in 15 minute intervals.

Fact, LCC on TSATL is nothing new, the wide bodies and liberal air agreements killed them. Fill up rates oin scheduled services are hard to beat.,

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: bastew
Posted 2013-09-13 11:07:27 and read 8113 times.

LCC just don't have the operating efficiencies on long haul flights as they do on short haul flights. Think of Ryanair. On short haul they can probably fit in 6-8 sectors per day for each aircraft. That is six sectors of auxillary charges: baggage charges, food, seat allocation charges, web check in charges etc etc. If it were to operate say STN-EWR it would only fit two sectors in for that day for the aircraft. It wouldn't be able to achieve a 20minute turnaround. And the crew would have to get off the other end and slip. Transport costs, hotac.

Also, passengers seem willing to sacrifice some comforts to save bucks on a flight of up to say four or five hours. But on a longhaul flight they would be more likely to spend an extra 50 bucks and have some comfort. So unless the pricing of a transatlantic LCC was DRASTICALLY lower than the incumbent airlines people would be more likely to fly with a full service carrier.

Air Asia X tried to crack the London/Paris market with a long haul LCC concept. It failed. And that was on a route with only one full service airline competing (Malaysia Airlines - KUL-STN). WIth the vast array of airlines and city pairs linking the UK/Europe/US I think a LCC would find it really difficult.

The concept seems to have success in some parts of the world, namely the Australia/Asia market (Jetstar and Air Asia X). But these carriers seem to fly on routes where competition isn't great (say Air Asia X OOL-KUL) or they have their big brother to help push sales their way (Qantas + Jetstar).

'All premium' startups seem to have a similar fate. The most recent was Air Hong Kong with an all premium A330 flying Hong Kong - London. It lasted a matter of months. Remember Maxjet, Eos, Silverjet? All flopped. Even OpenSkies the BA subsidary that had an all premium ORY-EWR service reintroduced economy.

[Edited 2013-09-13 11:10:54]

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-09-13 12:37:28 and read 7282 times.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 1):
I get why LCC for flights 10 hours on (Say west coast to Europe) may not work

Laker did flew to LAX from LGW. First with a stop at JFK since they were using DC-10-10s that didn't have the range necessary, but later, 1980 or 81, they introduced the non-stop service with their new DC-10-30s.

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 21):
If memory serves, PE DID fly 1-2x weekly nonstops between Bay area (OAK or SFO, don't recall which) and BRU! That's got to be at least 10 hr each way.

I beleive it was a one-stop service. OAK-EWR-BRU. Later they switched to SFO.

[Edited 2013-09-13 12:44:17]

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Fiedman
Posted 2013-09-13 12:43:33 and read 7183 times.

I believe its also cheaper for LCC to codeshare with larger airlines on international destinations. WJ for example codeshares with AF, AA, BA, CX, MU, CZ, DL, JL, KL, KE with codeshare agreements with these airlines there is no need for WJ to fly their own international routes

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-13 13:04:16 and read 6994 times.

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
Here is a Wikipedia link, taken with a grain of salt of course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laker_Airways

Only one grain of salt, perhaps - the Wiki article fits in with most of my memories of what happened.

Sir Freddie was "before his time" - he was fighting for a conceptual free market but operating in a market was actually highly regulated, and he was going against state owned airlines, heavily protected by their governments, for whom profit was not the first priority.

Would it work now? Who knows - but I think that someone will make the concept work one day. What it may need is a visionary, as Sir Freddie was in many ways, someone who can think outside the box and with the capital to survive early losses.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-13 13:16:48]

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: bastar1
Posted 2013-09-13 13:19:07 and read 6882 times.

There are a number of reasons why the LCC's cost advantage evaporates when it comes to longhaul:

1. Aircraft utilisation. While LCC'S operating from small non-congested airfields can drive significantly greater utilisation than legacy carriers this advantage evaporates on longhaul since an LCC is still likely only to be able to do two sectors a day. Indeed without a network large enough to permit an aircraft incoming to LON from NYC to depart for BOM (say) the legacy carrier's utilisation might even beat the LCC's.
2. Complexity. LCCs create value by simplifying their product. On longhaul the product becomes more complex. More people carry baggage. People need food, even if it is BOB. People are more likely to value entertainment etc. and importantly hey may be more willing to pay for these comforts than they will on shorthaul.
3. Costs. Fuel, overflying, and, in the UK particularly, a much higher rate of APD, are all costs that both LCc and legacy carriers carry pretty much equally. In addition hotel accommodation, crew pay costs etc all contribute to erode the differential that an LCc has over a legacy carrier.
4. Passenger mix. Business class is the engine room for longhaul. Economy and Firxt barely cover their own costs. Without Business Class it is hard to offer economy fares at an attractive price and still make a margin.
5. Feed. Very few routes can operate on a pure point to point basis and even fewer with an attractive frequency . Because the LCC model doesn't generally allow for transfers longhaul on all but a few routes would need a change in the LCC's model.
6. Loyalty. Longhaul passengers are likely to value heir FFPs more highly than those on shorthaul and this may result once again in a willingness to pay more for this privilege.

None of this is to say that it couldn't work, but it does perhaps explain why so many LCC's have given up on longhaul.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: opethfan
Posted 2013-09-13 15:04:10 and read 6034 times.

TS are successful for 2 reasons on their TATL service:

1) direct flights not relying on connections, which leisure travellers hate.

2) fares on those routes that are even $1 cheaper than a legacy. If it's TS showing at the top of a Hipmunk, Expedia or Kayak search, tourists will choose it.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-09-13 16:27:00 and read 5480 times.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 13):
As richandy points out the issue is cost. Traditionally the LCC's fly 8, less commonly 6, sectors per day, with extriemely short turn times. That is not possible with TATL flying in the same way, partially due to airway restrictions, partially due to time zones.

Also night curfews which are common at many airports in Europe.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 19):
Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
Does anyone remember Laker Airways?

Sir Freddie Laker has flair, and was a great spokesperson for his airline, Laker Airways served TATL markets for years.

But his scheduled Skytrain service was very short-lived. Driven out of business by PA/TW/BA who matched or undercut Laker's fares but offered much more frequent and convenient service from LHR instead of LGW, and they didn't charge for meals etc.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-13 16:33:03 and read 5423 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
But his scheduled Skytrain service was very short-lived. Driven out of business by PA/TW/BA who matched or undercut Laker's fares but offered much more frequent and convenient service from LHR instead of LGW, and they didn't charge for meals etc.

Indeed. That's why I sad:

Quoting mariner (Reply 32):
someone who can think outside the box and with the capital to survive early losses.

Anyone who does do this is going to have to be very well-funded, because it will have to survive tremendous fare battles from the entrenched carriers.

mariner

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: BHMNONREV
Posted 2013-09-13 18:55:57 and read 4675 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
But his scheduled Skytrain service was very short-lived. Driven out of business by PA/TW/BA who matched or undercut Laker's fares but offered much more frequent and convenient service from LHR instead of LGW, and they didn't charge for meals etc.

So true.. I remember in 1982, you could get a 24 hour standby ticket on TWA from LHR-BOS-STL for $192.00 one-way all-in. Any advantage Sir Freddie had was lost when BA, PA and TW matched fares in all of Laker's markets, including the awesome stand-by fares. It was great to walk up to the TWA counter at Lambert Field and if a seat was available to Heathrow then you were on. Routing would normally be via BOS.. ahhh the good old days  

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2013-09-13 19:45:41 and read 4442 times.

The LCC of yesterday is different from today. When I flew International Air Bahama 1968, NAS-LUX there was no charge for the normal checked luggage; there were free meals and drinks. Same with Loftleider 1969 LUX-KEF-JFK on board the huge CL-44. Loftleider bought and ended International Air Bahama in an effort to cut the competition.

I remember a picture of CA Gov. Jerry Brown from the 70's during his first set of gubernatorial terms of him with a large pizza box taken aboard, I think, People's Express from DEN to London. (I don't think it was Lakers'.) Meals were not free on that flight.

Is SAS Scandinavian an LCC? Although you get a free meal TATL and a beverage at that time, getting a non-alcoholic beverage any other time will cost you about $5.00 USD, as I understand it. I don't see how you can call yourself a full service airline and charge for a coke during the flight.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2013-09-13 22:38:01 and read 4086 times.

Norwegian longhaul operations:

OSL - JFK
ARN - JFK

Non transatlantic:

OSL - BKK
ARN - BKK

Coming up:

OSL - FLL
ARN - FLL
CPH - FLL

Announced:

ARN - OAK
ARN - LAX
OSL - OAK
OSL - LAX
OSL - MCO
CPH - JFK
CPH - LAX

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Air_Shuttle

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: rlwynn
Posted 2013-09-14 00:01:20 and read 3940 times.

Air Berlin
Condor




.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: baexecutive
Posted 2013-09-14 00:40:29 and read 3860 times.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 38):

I don't see how you can call yourself a full service airline and charge for ANY drinks inc alcohol!

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-09-14 07:31:31 and read 3593 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
That was actually

You have to forgive me - it was 45+ years ago, and my one great teenage adventure.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: YQBexYHZBGM
Posted 2013-09-14 07:56:00 and read 3544 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 24):
Anyone for a summer seasonal U2 BFS/GLA-YHZ? (For Xmas-New Year may work too, but headwinds may force tech-stop westbound).
That if U2 has any ETOPS aircraft.

Sure, that would be great. Unfortunately, one of the more notable LCC attempts between YHZ and the UK (Zoom Airlines) failed. Canada 3000 (MM) had some success with TATL flights from YHZ (to the UK, France and Spain), but succumbed shortly after 9/11. Condor currently operates YHZ-FRA seasonally, and, of course, there's FI to KEF and points beyond.

In addition to U2, I believe Monarch could do well on YHZ-UK routes.

Al
YQBexYHZBGM

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: LondonCity
Posted 2013-09-14 09:11:12 and read 3369 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Anyone who does do this is going to have to be very well-funded, because it will have to survive tremendous fare battles from the entrenched carriers.

Not just well funded. It's going to have the lowest cost structure in the aviation business. If anyone can succeed, then it would be Ryanair ... out operating to/from airports where there's less competition from the legacy carriers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...nair-plans-long-haul-services.html



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 39):
Norwegian longhaul operations:

The difference with Norwegian's transatlantic services is that it will operating routes where there is not the same level of competition as there would be out of Amsterdam, London, Paris and Frankfurt. Interesting that Norwegian has, seemingly, put Asian expansion on hold.

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 7):
Jet2 are planning a series of transatlantic flights this year and next from a few UK airports to BOS & EWR

Yes, Jet2 has operated these special transatlantic flights on several occasions. They're really nothing more than what a holiday charter flight operation used to be.

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2013-09-14 13:27:34 and read 3060 times.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 44):
The difference with Norwegian's transatlantic services is that it will operating routes where there is not the same level of competition as there would be out of Amsterdam, London, Paris and Frankfurt

I'm sure that will come ...

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-09-14 13:58:22 and read 2990 times.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 44):
Not just well funded. It's going to have the lowest cost structure in the aviation business. If anyone can succeed, then it would be Ryanair ... out operating to/from airports where there's less competition from the legacy carriers.

Add Michael O'Leary as an essential of that mix, a loud mouth publicity hound, in much the same way that Richard Branson was.

Virgin Atlantic is not LCC, of course, but it was more so in the early days when it was called "a discount airline," (as in this US news item), and made it's name as the successor to Freddie Laker:

http://abcnews.go.com/Archives/video...84-virgin-atlantic-flight-13727255

That clip becomes interesting for its overview of US aviation at the time, and aircraft/airport footage - especially for fans of the 727.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-14 14:02:49]

Topic: RE: Why No LCC Transatlantic Service?
Username: LN-KGL
Posted 2013-09-15 17:24:38 and read 2173 times.

LondonCity, Norwegian is the third airline flying between OSL and NYC and the third airline between ARN and NYC. Between ARN and BKK and between OSL and BKK Norwegian has only to compete against Thai International Airways. In August the number of passengers between OSL and BKK grew with 82% compared with August in 2012. The growth to NYC from OSL was 35% in August, but then you have to remember that both United and SAS flew daily and Norwegian had only three weekly flights.


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