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Topic: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: flyiguy
Posted 2013-09-14 16:54:08 and read 12643 times.

Talked to a Captain today and I guess a the FAA passed a ruling that will now cut the hours a pilot can fly even lower which will leave WN in a pilot shortage so they are currently looking for qualified applicants. Here's the link if your interested in looking and applying.

https://www.swajobs.com/ci20/index.jsp?locale=en_US&applicationName=swaExtCI&POSTING_ID=79806052&SEQ=jobDetails

FLY

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: vio
Posted 2013-09-14 16:58:42 and read 12621 times.

Nice! I wish I was allowed to work in the US.   It's a good company to work for. Not the most enjoyable airline to fly with, but a great place to work.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-09-14 17:07:51 and read 12569 times.

Gee, they have to hire more pilots this won't raise prices at all. Thanks FAA.  

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2013-09-14 17:56:53 and read 12370 times.

Quoting flyiguy (Thread starter):
I guess a the FAA passed a ruling that will now cut the hours a pilot can fly even lower which will leave WN in a pilot shortage

Does this ruling affect WN only...or does it create a pilot shortage for other U.S. airlines as well?

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-09-14 18:28:40 and read 12225 times.

I thought the pilot shortage was going to be caused by the thousands of pilots approaching retirement and not enough pilots to replace them because of the new 1500-hour rule and the prohibitive cost of flight training, especially considering how poor first-year salaries at most regional airlines are. Isn't the limit still 100 hours per month?

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Reffado
Posted 2013-09-14 18:29:58 and read 12229 times.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3):

Can't say for sure, but considering WN is a low cost airline next to other US airlines, I'd say the others have a more comfortable number of employees, meaning they'll have an easier time dealing with this new FAA rule.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-09-14 18:33:25 and read 12193 times.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3):
Does this ruling affect WN only...or does it create a pilot shortage for other U.S. airlines as well?

It has an effect on all part 121 carriers (which are those with aircraft that have more than 9 seats.)

[Edited 2013-09-14 18:45:53]

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2013-09-14 18:49:47 and read 12129 times.

What about all the FL 717 pilots.....what happened/will happen to them?

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-09-14 19:05:01 and read 12057 times.

The FL 717 pilots are on the Southwest seniority list and are coming over to WN as 737 F/Os. WN is hiring 200 new pilots to cover the increased need due to the new FAR and due to more pilots on vacation vacations. The FL pilots are coming over with their longevity, which means they are getting more vacation time than F/Os at WN normally get.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: michman
Posted 2013-09-14 19:47:19 and read 11867 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 4):
I thought the pilot shortage was going to be caused by the thousands of pilots approaching retirement and not enough pilots to replace them because of the new 1500-hour rule and the prohibitive cost of flight training, especially considering how poor first-year salaries at most regional airlines are. Isn't the limit still 100 hours per month?

The new 10 hour pilot rest requirement was published 2 years ago and now goes into effect this December. This will have the most immediate impact and is likely what is driving the new WN hiring.

[Edited 2013-09-14 20:18:54]

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-09-14 21:39:53 and read 11599 times.

Most estimates that I have heard are for increases of 7-10% industry wide in order to meet the new duty time requirements.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2013-09-14 21:57:07 and read 11545 times.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 8):
The FL 717 pilots are on the Southwest seniority list and are coming over to WN as 737 F/Os.

That's not exactly how it works. The captains, for the most part, should remain as captains, on the 737. Not sure how the single list integration went (if it's been done yet or not, I don't follow Southwest).

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2013-09-14 22:19:54 and read 11486 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):

You are incorrect. Tanker is right. No FL pilot can hold an WN left seat prior to january 2015. When they convert they become WN F/O'S.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-09-14 22:37:54 and read 11439 times.

For the record, I'm for the pilot rest rules. I've worked conditions where rest was impossible. No one falls asleep without some down time. 10 hours, with time zone adjustments, seems reasonable.

Quoting michman (Reply 9):
The new 10 hour pilot rest requirement was published 2 years ago and now goes into effect this December.

With the lack of redeyes, is WN really impacted that much? I've seen no numbers. WN has 6300 pilots (6327 by airline pilot central). If they require more pilots on the rest rules, but we're only talking 300 to 400 pilots. And its too late to hire that many pilots by December and have them interview, have WN make their hiring decision, pilots to give notice, train (classroom and in cockpit), and integrate into the roster.

I'm just questioning how much WN is going to hire, not that the rules are putting impetus to hire. It will be interesting to see the impact.



Lightsaber

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2013-09-14 22:43:21 and read 11423 times.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
You are incorrect. Tanker is right. No FL pilot can hold an WN left seat prior to january 2015. When they convert they become WN F/O'S.

Wow, they really got hosed then. Arguably worse than the TWA pilots did.

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-09-15 00:18:03 and read 10950 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
Arguably worse than the TWA pilots did.

Those TWA pilots without a job may disagree...

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: thrufru
Posted 2013-09-15 04:55:17 and read 9673 times.

The new rules can be found under FAR 117. The idea being put forth that SWA needs to hire F/O's to account for the new requirements is somewhat surprising.

Under current rules, a two man crew is limited to 8 hours. Under 117, it'll be 9, something that will benefit SWA. The areas where airlines will see the most impact are a reduction in the total permissible duty day, something that could account for SWA's need to hire. This is predicated upon circadian rhythm and the time of day duty starts. Many of the other parts of 117 pertain to long haul flying and the significant increases in rest requirements depending on the number of time zones being crossed.

A major departure from current practice is when the rest must be taken. Currently it's all about how much rest a pilot gets AFTER a duty period. FAR 117 moves the rest to BEFORE any duty period to theoretically ensure that all pilots are adequately rested prior to commencing work.

The new rules being implimented by FAR 117 have been sorely needed for years. We've been operating under rules that were crafted decades ago, long before the science of sleep and the effects of fatigue were understood. It also used to take significantly longer to get between the originating airport and the destination, hence the reason for such long duty days being allowed. Lets also not forget, flight deck operations involved a lot more individuals when these rules were made, Captain, F/O, F/E, Navigator, Radio Operators, etc. there's only two of us now (for the most part).

Safety is paramount in our industry, and to those complaining about costs, it'd behove you to remember the Colgan Air crash in BUF. These rule changes were directly impacted by that incident.

One more note, but back to SWA, now. I understand an airline setting minimum standards for a pilot to apply. One of SWA's requirements is 1000 hrs. PIC Turbine. I've always thought that an airline such as SWA (meaning more or less, a single type operator) should, in lieau of the PIC requirement consider time in type. If an airline is hiring direct entry captains, it makes sense, but when you're only hiring guys that are going to sit in the right seat for years, it seems like it'd be an equitable trade off. While neither of these requirements will guarantee a qualified candidate, the substitution of time in type for PIC can accomplish the same end goal of weeding out less than desirable candidates.

P.S. FAR 117's first day of implementation is January 3rd, 2014.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2013-09-15 10:05:39 and read 7036 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
Quoting 737tanker (Reply 8):The FL 717 pilots are on the Southwest seniority list and are coming over to WN as 737 F/Os.
That's not exactly how it works. The captains, for the most part, should remain as captains, on the 737. Not sure how the single list integration went (if it's been done yet or not, I don't follow Southwest).

Diamond: you are totally incorrect. If you don't follow Southwest, why would you "correct" someone who actually DOES know what he's talking about?  
Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 11):
You are incorrect. Tanker is right. No FL pilot can hold an WN left seat prior to january 2015. When they convert they become WN F/O'S.

infiniti329 is exactly correct.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 12):You are incorrect. Tanker is right. No FL pilot can hold an WN left seat prior to january 2015. When they convert they become WN F/O'S.
Wow, they really got hosed then. Arguably worse than the TWA pilots did.

Yes they did; the FL Captains in particular got a terrible deal.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2013-09-15 10:41:37 and read 6705 times.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
iamond: you are totally incorrect. If you don't follow Southwest, why would you "correct" someone who actually DOES know what he's talking about?

I was speaking in generalizations. Look at all the mergers that have happened over the last 10 years. How many of them had one airline absorb another, where none of the captains from the airline being absorbed were left as captain. My count is one, Southwest, which is a raw deal.

Is that only the 717 captains or all the captains?

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-09-15 10:47:31 and read 6656 times.

Quoting vio (Reply 1):
Not the most enjoyable airline to fly with, but a great place to work.

Why isn't WN an enjoyable airline to fly for?

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-09-15 11:03:58 and read 6512 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 18):
Is that only the 717 captains or all the captains?

Basically what the SLI says is that no former FL pilot can be a Captain on the 737 until Jan 1, 2015. It also says that no WN pilot can be a Captain on the 717 until that same date. So the FL pilots thought that they would be coming over to WN as Captains on the 717 due to the fence on the Captain seats. However after both sides had agreed to the SLI WN management made the deal with DL that sent the 717s to DL. If the FL pilots had known that they couldn't be a WN Captain until 2015 they may have voted differently. Conversely if the WN pilots had known that all the FL pilots were coming to WN but 88 of their airplanes weren't coming then we may have voted differently.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-09-15 11:04:54 and read 6486 times.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 16):
The areas where airlines will see the most impact are a reduction in the total permissible duty day, something that could account for SWA's need to hire. This is predicated upon circadian rhythm and the time of day duty starts.

I think it's likely this. Most WN aircraft have traditionally had a single crew change per day and have basically had a morning crew and an afternoon crew. But an aircraft that starts the day on the east coast at, say, 0630 and ends the day on the west coast at, say, 2230,(0030 on the east coast) is now more likely to need three crews. As WN's utilization has gone up some and the 738s have entered the fleet, their crew scheduling has gotten somewhat more complicated, but it's still worlds better than the legacies. At WN hubs, it's still probably true that more than fifty percent of crews (cockpit and cabin) stay with the airplane. At legacy hubs, it's nowhere near that high. This seems to have positive impacts on delays.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-09-15 12:43:10 and read 5686 times.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 16):
it'd behove you to remember the Colgan Air crash in BUF. These rule changes were directly impacted by that incident.

Weren't both pilots legal for rest, even under the new rules?

I think that crash had more to do with a stupidly long commute combined with a cold for the F/O, and a Captain that had no business flying an airplane.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: BoeingMerica
Posted 2013-09-15 13:43:39 and read 5192 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 15):

While they might have gotten hosed, TWA has ceased to exist for almost 13 years now. If you have not found another F/O job by now it has to more about you, and less about them getting screwed in the M&A process.

BoeingMerica

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2013-09-15 13:52:48 and read 5110 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 15):
Those TWA pilots without a job may disagree...

Which TWA pilots without a job. Every AA pilot has been offered recall, so by default, all the TWA pilots have been offered recall, meaning they have a job, if they wanted it.

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: MtnWest1979
Posted 2013-09-15 16:07:06 and read 4382 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
west coast at, say, 2230,(0030 on the east coast)

Slight correction: 2230 PT is 0130 ET.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2013-09-15 18:27:47 and read 4031 times.

WN used to have as a prerequisite a 737 type rating, which meant that if you didn't come from another airline and hold a 737 type rating, you were on the hook to get the 737 type on your own dime (and I know someone that actually did that back in the day...). Is that still the case?

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Acey559
Posted 2013-09-15 18:50:18 and read 4055 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 26):

Yes, type still required to get hired though you don't have to have it until you show up for class. I put my app in the other day. No shot I'll get hired but ya can't win if you don't play!

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-09-15 20:11:06 and read 3890 times.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 16):
The new rules can be found under FAR 117. The idea being put forth that SWA needs to hire F/O's to account for the new requirements is somewhat surprising.

Under current rules, a two man crew is limited to 8 hours. Under 117, it'll be 9, something that will benefit SWA. The areas where airlines will see the most impact are a reduction in the total permissible duty day, something that could account for SWA's need to hire. This is predicated upon circadian rhythm and the time of day duty starts. Many of the other parts of 117 pertain to long haul flying and the significant increases in rest requirements depending on the number of time zones being crossed.

The total duty day is also variable depending on your report time and the number of legs flown. With WN frequently flying a high number shorter legs, those additional duty time limitations may come into play.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: N1120A
Posted 2013-09-15 22:04:25 and read 3717 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 4):
I thought the pilot shortage was going to be caused by the thousands of pilots approaching retirement and not enough pilots to replace them because of the new 1500-hour rule and the prohibitive cost of flight training, especially considering how poor first-year salaries at most regional airlines are.

That part of the shortage - which is also affecting the FAA in a big way, as the first wave of NATCA controllers are hitting 56 - is more problematic with the legacies. They staved it off for a few years when they got the retirement age increased to 65, but that is what happens when you aren't hiring for years on end.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
Wow, they really got hosed then. Arguably worse than the TWA pilots did.

This wasn't a merger - it was a purchase. A lot like what happened with TWA, though WN actually bought the whole airline - not just its assets. Of course WN's people are going to win.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 15):
Those TWA pilots without a job may disagree...

Lets be honest - any ex-TWA pilot who is jobless is either 1) retired or 2) working at an airline other than AA (maybe WN).

Quoting thrufru (Reply 16):
One more note, but back to SWA, now. I understand an airline setting minimum standards for a pilot to apply. One of SWA's requirements is 1000 hrs. PIC Turbine. I've always thought that an airline such as SWA (meaning more or less, a single type operator) should, in lieau of the PIC requirement consider time in type. If an airline is hiring direct entry captains, it makes sense, but when you're only hiring guys that are going to sit in the right seat for years, it seems like it'd be an equitable trade off. While neither of these requirements will guarantee a qualified candidate, the substitution of time in type for PIC can accomplish the same end goal of weeding out less than desirable candidates.

WN doesn't really need to change its requirements. There are lots of people who want to fly for WN, who have the qualifications. They might, eventually, need to lift the type-rating requirement, but I don't see how they would need to dump the PIC requirement. With all those underpaid regional pilots out there, who have now been flying for quite some time, WN doesn't need to lift that.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
Yes they did; the FL Captains in particular got a terrible deal.

Well, their airline got bought. That's how it works. At least they all have jobs - and probably much more pay than when they were left-seating at FL.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 18):
Is that only the 717 captains or all the captains?

All captains.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 20):
Conversely if the WN pilots had known that all the FL pilots were coming to WN but 88 of their airplanes weren't coming then we may have voted differently.

I don't know if that would be true. Its not like the WN pilots would ever be affected by that. WN has lots more planes coming, is going to need to replace those 88 airplanes anyway and the FL pilots are the ones who would go first if WN ever had to furlough - which they've never had to do.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Weren't both pilots legal for rest, even under the new rules?

Its arguable

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
I think that crash had more to do with a stupidly long commute combined with a cold for the F/O, and a Captain that had no business flying an airplane.

It was basically 100% the employment of a completely incompetent captain. The F/O was doing her job - it was the captain that ignored the stick shaker and who had failed all his check rides.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 26):
WN used to have as a prerequisite a 737 type rating, which meant that if you didn't come from another airline and hold a 737 type rating, you were on the hook to get the 737 type on your own dime (and I know someone that actually did that back in the day...). Is that still the case?

It is still the case, and there are plenty of pilots who have paid for their 737 type rating in order to fly for WN. Its worth it.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: SocalApproach
Posted 2013-09-15 22:10:46 and read 3723 times.

Not surprised to hear this. Had a pilot for an airline I won't mention that told
Me WN pilots get paid per leg so most pilots try to get in as many short hops as possible per work day (hence why they taxi like NASCAR drivers?) and this FAA rule was bound to mess that up for them.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2013-09-15 22:32:58 and read 3673 times.

A little off topic with the AT/WN title topic but I can say that no one at AirTran lost any money. I am not a pilot for WN but a mech.. I do know that there are a lot of FOs at WN who don't think much of the integration. Why? Because there are AirTran captains who will obtain the left seat before FOs who were employed with WN before the purchase. As far as fair, how much more fair could it have been? Speaking of pay, I know the mechanics got a large pay raise and were integrated very fairly. There are quite a few mechanics senior to me from them and I hired in appx. ca. 2000. Sorry for the left turn. Isn't the bottom line about seniority and money? Not "I'm a Captain"!

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: BA777
Posted 2013-09-15 23:04:37 and read 3625 times.

How much do WN pay?

BA777

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: N1120A
Posted 2013-09-15 23:24:20 and read 3594 times.

Quoting BA777 (Reply 32):
How much do WN pay?

This should give an idea.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...or-national-lcc/southwest_airlines

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 31):

Well, I'm thinking that a staple would have been considered more fair by WN pilots.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Atrude777
Posted 2013-09-16 01:09:58 and read 3563 times.

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 30):

Me WN pilots get paid per leg so most pilots try to get in as many short hops as possible per work day

False. WN is not going to pay the same "leg" as in BWI-SAN is the same pay as SAN-OAK.

They are paid per "trip" A trip is defined as around 55 minutes.

So every 55 minutes they are paid, regardless if it is 6 legs or 2 legs of a long haul (ie BWI-SAN-OAK).

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-09-16 04:28:53 and read 3423 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
I don't know if that would be true. Its not like the WN pilots would ever be affected by that. WN has lots more planes coming, is going to need to replace those 88 airplanes anyway and the FL pilots are the ones who would go first if WN ever had to furlough - which they've never had to do.

Replacing the 88 717s means that there are 88 less aircraft for growth. Growth means hiring and upgrades. As to furloughs, if there is ever a furlough, the first pilots furloughed will be pilots hired by WN after the announvement that WN was buying FL. That is because they are on the bottom of the seniority. The reason that I said that the WN pilots may have voted differently on the SLI is because the FL pilots were given seniority based on them bringing all of their aircraft to WN. As it turned almost 2/3 of the FL aircraft didn't come to WN.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-09-16 12:00:11 and read 3112 times.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 31):
I do know that there are a lot of FOs at WN who don't think much of the integration.

Some people will complain about anything, even if they get the better end of a deal.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Surfandsnow
Posted 2013-09-16 12:13:15 and read 3072 times.

Wasn't this to be expected, with the new aviation regulations coming into force? If anything I'm surprised that people are so surprised by this...

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-09-16 12:46:10 and read 3008 times.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 35):
As it turned almost 2/3 of the FL aircraft didn't come to WN.

Is it a fair portrayal to say that the a/c did not come with them, they did, WN just decided not to use them, indeed most think they never wanted the a/c in the first place, wanting to stay all 737. DL just happened to be a saviour in disguise.
Now the X-Files fan in me wonders what else DL got for taking these a/c off of WN's hands, less competition at ATL, hhmmmmmmm........

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: barney captain
Posted 2013-09-16 13:06:40 and read 2969 times.

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 30):
Not surprised to hear this. Had a pilot for an airline I won't mention that told
Me WN pilots get paid per leg so most pilots try to get in as many short hops as possible per work day

Atrude777 is correct when he wrote that the above is completely false - and yet this myth persists. In fact, this has never been the case. We get paid the actual or scheduled flight time, whichever is greater. So if the flight takes longer, we get paid more.

The reason we try not to waste time and request direct routing, has more to with the way our operation is scheduled. We aren't flying that aircraft one leg to an out station or hub where it will sit for 90 minutes. We are typically in that same aircraft for 4 or more legs and with 25-30 minute turn times, if the first leg is delayed, the rest may be as well.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-09-16 13:09:58 and read 2976 times.

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 30):

Not surprised to hear this. Had a pilot for an airline I won't mention that told
Me WN pilots get paid per leg so most pilots try to get in as many short hops as possible per work day (hence why they taxi like NASCAR drivers?) and this FAA rule was bound to mess that up for them.

Wrong. 1 trip = 253 miles = ~50 minutes. The longer flights are more productive than the shorter ones.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: thrufru
Posted 2013-09-16 13:42:17 and read 2881 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
WN doesn't really need to change its requirements. There are lots of people who want to fly for WN, who have the qualifications. They might, eventually, need to lift the type-rating requirement, but I don't see how they would need to dump the PIC requirement. With all those underpaid regional pilots out there, who have now been flying for quite some time, WN doesn't need to lift that.

I didn't say they needed to change their requirements. The question I asked used the phrase "in lieu of", meaning in place of, or as an alternative. The whole reason that airlines place minimum standards on prospective candidates is to narrow the field or because their insurance requires it. I get that. I've got many friends that fly for WN and every single one of them think that a type rating and time in type should be offered as a qualification "in lieu of" PIC turbine.

Conversely, several years ago, both FedEx and UPS decided that all those "regional pilots out there" with thousands of hours of PIC turbine needed one more thing, and that was transoceanic experience. That narrowed the field to basically military and charter pilots.

Who do you think most captains at any airline, or frankly, most passengers would want in the right seat of an airplane as a brand-spanking-new F/O, a guy with 1500 hours PIC in a Beech 1900 or a guy with 1500 hours of experience and a type rating, in the aircraft he's flying that day? It could effectively be posited as a question of quality vs. quantity.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-09-16 13:55:43 and read 2827 times.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 41):
guy with 1500 hours of experience and a type rating, in the aircraft he's flying that day?

That argument is pretty weak, because he's going to learn the aircraft both in classrooms, and in the sim, before he even sets foot on a plane with passengers regardless of whether he has a type rating or not.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: thrufru
Posted 2013-09-16 14:00:25 and read 2802 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
It was basically 100% the employment of a completely incompetent captain. The F/O was doing her job - it was the captain that ignored the stick shaker and who had failed all his check rides.

And that, too, is a prime example of how "PIC Turbine time" is not necessarily a true indicator of one's skills or competency.

Just as a side note and not knowing what type of events the failures were associated with: He had 5 training failures or "Pink Slips". A captain of a part 121 airliner can theoretically get to that seat with only 6 FAA checking events:, Private Pilot, Instrument Rating, Commercial Multi-Engine (can be done together, though you're not qualified to fly commercial single engine), ATP, a Type Ride in the A/C he is to command and the actual ride with the FAA. While I can't imagine that this was the case, it is possible that he could have failed every required ride but one. But that's okay, he's got thousands of hours of PIC Turbine.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: thrufru
Posted 2013-09-16 14:10:08 and read 2776 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 42):
That argument is pretty weak, because he's going to learn the aircraft both in classrooms, and in the sim, before he even sets foot on a plane with passengers regardless of whether he has a type rating or not.

No, it's not a weak argument. If you think for one minute that a pilot is going to be fully prepared from just classroom instruction and sim training, you're terribly mistaken. That's why we have OE and also consolidation time before a pilot can be released.

I'd rather have a trained and experienced Dispatcher working my flight than someone who's just learned how to do it in a classroom. No classroom or sim can ever truly substitute for real life experience.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-09-16 14:21:10 and read 2760 times.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 44):
No, it's not a weak argument. If you think for one minute that a pilot is going to be fully prepared from just classroom instruction and sim training, you're terribly mistaken. That's why we have OE and also consolidation time before a pilot can be released.

I'd rather have a trained and experienced Dispatcher working my flight than someone who's just learned how to do it in a classroom. No classroom or sim can ever truly substitute for real life experience.

Weak argument again. In both cases, an FO and a new dispatcher in IOE will be training under qualified and experienced training personnel until they are signed off.

If a new FO already has 1500+ hours of turbine PIC time under his belt, he may not know the aircraft all that well, but neither will that guy who's fresh from type rating school who's got the same amount of time. Plus, those couple additional maneuvers for a type rating which he may or may not have practiced in the sim is something he's already familiar with from his previous B1900 type rating.

You act like he wouldn't have a clue as to how to fly unless he had that type rating.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: thrufru
Posted 2013-09-16 14:52:48 and read 2675 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 45):
Weak argument again. In both cases, an FO and a new dispatcher in IOE will be training under qualified and experienced training personnel until they are signed off.

If a new FO already has 1500+ hours of turbine PIC time under his belt, he may not know the aircraft all that well, but neither will that guy who's fresh from type rating school who's got the same amount of time. Plus, those couple additional maneuvers for a type rating which he may or may not have practiced in the sim is something he's already familiar with from his previous B1900 type rating.

You act like he wouldn't have a clue as to how to fly unless he had that type rating.

Ah... What you're saying is valid and I agree that I'd rather have a B1900 captain without a type rating than an EMB F/O with a type that he just got at a part 141 school.

However... Instead of being so quick to dismiss my argument, It'd benefit you to actually reread what I stated. What I wrote was "a guy with 1500 hours of experience and a type rating, in the aircraft he's flying that day". To clarify, that means the guy has a type rating and he also has hundreds, if not thousands of hours in said type, but no PIC turbine.

I've flown with new hires that had thousands of hours of PIC turbine. I've flown with new hires that had hundreds of hours in the type of aircraft we fly before they came here. I'll take the guy with time in type almost any day of the week, and I can avow that this is the common refrain among my coworkers. Switching between aircraft types is not like switching between automobile models. While the fundamentals are definitely the same, there are many, many differences.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-09-16 15:17:08 and read 2624 times.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 46):
Instead of being so quick to dismiss my argument, It'd benefit you to actually reread what I stated.
Quoting thrufru (Reply 46):
To clarify, that means the guy has a type rating and he also has hundreds, if not thousands of hours in said type, but no PIC turbine.

Okay, that makes more sense to me. Carry on.   

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2013-09-16 23:13:00 and read 2326 times.

Bottom line here I think, if you have right or left seat experience in a twin engine Boeing aircraft I would hire him over a gazillion hour pilot flying turbine time in any other aircraft. Boeing is very anal when it comes to cross utilization IMO. I only work on them but the similarities are obvious.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: N1120A
Posted 2013-09-17 00:03:44 and read 2294 times.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 35):
The reason that I said that the WN pilots may have voted differently on the SLI is because the FL pilots were given seniority based on them bringing all of their aircraft to WN. As it turned almost 2/3 of the FL aircraft didn't come to WN.

Yet, all those WN pilots get to take their place ahead of the FL pilots. Still benefits them. New hires are new hires.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-09-17 12:51:43 and read 2074 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 49):
Yet, all those WN pilots get to take their place ahead of the FL pilots

Not all WN are ahead of the FL pilots. For instance the F/O I recently flew with has been at WN over 8 years and has 450 FL above him.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: barney captain
Posted 2013-09-17 15:04:26 and read 1970 times.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 50):
Not all WN are ahead of the FL pilots. For instance the F/O I recently flew with has been at WN over 8 years and has 450 FL above him.

It goes all the way up to roughly 16 years at SWA before no FL pilots didn't get placed on top of you. SWA captured the Captain seats on the FL transitioned A/C, but only until January 1, 2015 - then they're up for grabs.

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-09-17 19:54:53 and read 1785 times.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 51):
It goes all the way up to roughly 16 years at SWA before no FL pilots didn't get placed on top of you. SWA captured the Captain seats on the FL transitioned A/C, but only until January 1, 2015 - then they're up for grabs.

That sort of makes sense, as it was roughly 16 years ago, that Air Tran was formed from ValuJet. So, then was it a date-of-hire merge of seniority lists?

Topic: RE: WN Hiring First Officers
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2013-09-18 00:49:52 and read 1614 times.

The biggest losers in this are WN F/Os. Its already known that upgrading to the left seat will take on WN takes a looong tim. now with the FL pilots coming over that climb may have gotten 5x as longer. There will be F/O's who will never see the left seat in their careers at WN which is very sad in my opinon.


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