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Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-09-19 01:56:23 and read 40287 times.

Officially announced now by Lufthansa

Link: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...thansa-brief-idUKF9N0E500O20130919

Order is worth is US$ 19 billion for 34 B777-900s + 25 A350-900s

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-09-19 01:59:02 and read 40397 times.

Quoting behramjee (Thread starter):

That is good news. Excellent choice. Looking forward to welcome then in the fleet.

wilco737
  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 01:59:31 and read 40408 times.

Lufthansa today announced its long-awaited wide-body order. The $19 billion deal will replace B747-400 and A340-300/A340-600 aircraft and looks as follows:

> 25x A350-900 aircraft with first delivery in 2016
> 34x B777-9 aircraft with first delivery in 2020

All aircraft should be delivered by 2025.

The (Boeing) order will be finalized after the formal launch of the 777X family later this year.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...aft-order-among-airbus-boeing.html

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:10:50]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: bobmuc
Posted 2013-09-19 02:03:36 and read 40250 times.

Live press conference:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/de/the...en/pressekonferenz-19sept2013.html

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-19 02:11:10 and read 39954 times.

2016 first A350-900

2020 first 777-9X

Seems that LH got early delivery slots by Airbus

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: scouseflyer
Posted 2013-09-19 02:11:23 and read 39970 times.

Interesting, launch customer for 779 then, shame no more A380 orders too though  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:17:43 and read 39743 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 5):
shame no more A380 orders too though

They also said to increase the A380 fleet to 19 frames, that means two more to come.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: scouseflyer
Posted 2013-09-19 02:19:21 and read 39685 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
They also said to increase the A380 fleet to 19 frames, that means two more to come.

Excellent, missed that  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Someone83
Posted 2013-09-19 02:20:00 and read 39672 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
They also said to increase the A380 fleet to 19 frames, that means two more to come.

I.e firming up the two A380 from earlier this year?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: zkojq
Posted 2013-09-19 02:22:41 and read 39574 times.


Can't wait to see an A350 in Lufthansa's livery. Both cgi shots look great.

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:23:41]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:22:58 and read 39540 times.

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 8):
I.e firming up the two A380 from earlier this year?

Correct.

This will likely happen together with the A350s in the coming months.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-09-19 02:23:52 and read 39541 times.

well, with the 2 A380s they replace exactly 24 343 24 346 and the remaining 13 744s

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:24:53 and read 39493 times.

Also from the press release, Lufthansa plans to operate the 777-9 and A350-900 in two-class and three-class configuration depending on market demand.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-09-19 02:25:38 and read 39465 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
That is good news. Excellent choice.

   Indeed. Both aircraft will look great in the LH livery.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:27:09 and read 39465 times.

Lufthansa plans to phase out 13 oldest 747-400s and 17 A340-300s as it takes 777-9X and A350-900. Growth flexible between 1% and 5% annually.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2013-09-19 02:27:38 and read 39416 times.

Congratulations to LH, B and A. I love mixed orders - less internet traffic for useless comments and less work for the moderators...  

What a pitty they don't have this special livery anymore. Would be nice to (finally) see the 777 mentioned on the fuselage as well.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Axel J.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-09-19 02:29:31 and read 39334 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
Also from the press release, Lufthansa plans to operate the 777-9 and A350-900 in two-class and three-class configuration depending on market demand.

Same as the older 744's which will get 2 class as well.

Let's see what changes until then. During my 12 years at LH I learnt that things changed quite often until it is final  

wilco737
  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-19 02:30:54 and read 39246 times.

Interesting to see the gap of 250-300 seats. Also glad to see the 747-8I will stay for a little while

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: RedChili
Posted 2013-09-19 02:32:59 and read 39191 times.

Based on hte graphic provided by KarelXWB in reply 14, it seems that the 359 could be replacing the 77E and 763 with OS, plus the 343 with LX.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sturmovik
Posted 2013-09-19 02:35:34 and read 39092 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):

And 777-9 renders too:

Wow! those look incredibly realistic, thanks for posting!

Great to see this mixed order, kinda sad to see the writing on the wall for quads..

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2013-09-19 02:38:41 and read 38960 times.

I guess we all know now why A350 won against 787-10: most likely due to earlier availability offered by Airbus. I highly doubt this order is "political".

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2013-09-19 02:39:49 and read 38958 times.

Interesting order.

Both planes look great, but damn the B778 looks too big for its engines  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 02:39:50 and read 38955 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
well, with the 2 A380s they replace exactly 24 343 24 346 and the remaining 13 744s

You forgot that the 777s and naturally the old 767s of AUA will also be axed according to the fleet plan. So its quite clear to me AUA will receive some of the A350s.

Congratulations. Thats quite a stunning streamlining of the fleet. Seems by 2025, just like now, LH will have the best fleet worldwide. But I expect one major change until then, as the A330s will be on the way out in 10 years time, which leaves the door open for the 787-9 which I would love to see in the LH fleet.
Nice that they add two A380s as well, but the sad part is that its now rather unlikely that other than the possibility of a handful of add-ons the 748I-options wont be converted.
Saddest part though is the 777X will be 10-abreast, so economy-passengers beware what type you are choosing for your flight in the future!

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:42:12]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sandrozrh
Posted 2013-09-19 02:41:10 and read 38867 times.

I dont want to speculate, but still I wonder wether it is coincidence that LX's CEO Hohmeister was a pax on the last FRA-ZRH flight yesterday evening.

Anyway, congrats to all parties involved!

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: aviaponcho
Posted 2013-09-19 02:41:42 and read 38862 times.

I miss the first question of the Q&A session concerning the options
Did anyone catch it ?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:42:15 and read 41262 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 17):
Also glad to see the 747-8I will stay for a little while

Indeed, that was just speculation by other people. No way Lufthansa would retire those 748s within 10 years after purchase.

Anyway, Lufthansa has a complete website dedicated to this order. Check it out:

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/themen/fleet-development.html

Quote:
59 ultra-modern aircraft – 34 Boeing 777-9Xs and 25 Airbus A350-900s – will be added to the Lufthansa Group's wide-body fleet. The first of these new aircraft will be delivered as early as 2016. Older Boeing 747-400s and Airbus A340-300s will be phased out by 2025. The new aeroplanes will primarily serve to replace existing aircraft at Lufthansa.

The investment amount for the Lufthansa Group's latest order totals EUR 14bn at list prices and is the largest single private-sector investment in the history of German industry. "This investment will safeguard about 13,000 jobs at Lufthansa alone as well as thousands of jobs at our partners in aviation and other suppliers", said Christoph Franz, Chairman of the Executive Board and CEO of the Lufthansa Group, explaining the macroeconomic significance of the investment at a press conference in Frankfurt.

This investment in new technology, efficiency and customer comfort is a continuation of the ongoing fleet modernisation that is taking place at the Group's airlines. Lufthansa operates a wide-body fleet of around 107 aircraft, among them ten ultra-modern Airbus A380s and nine Boeing 747-8s as well as the Airbus A330-300 (18 aircraft). The fleet also includes Airbus A340s (48) and Boeing 747-400s (22). In addition to these, the Group subsidiary Swiss has 31 wide-body aeroplanes, while Austrian Airlines' wide-body fleet consists of 12 aircraft.

The aim is to reduce the number of different models and fleet complexity in the Passenger Airline Group segment and also replace existing aircraft with state-of-the-art aeroplanes. Following the aircraft order already placed in March of this year, the Group currently has a total of 295 brand-new aircraft on order with a list value of EUR 36bn. These should be delivered by 2025.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:44:09 and read 41423 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 24):
I miss the first question of the Q&A session concerning the options

I have: Lufthansa 777-9X order can go up to 64, A350-900 up to 55 if all options and purchase rights are converted.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 02:46:16 and read 42262 times.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 24):
I miss the first question of the Q&A session concerning the options
Did anyone catch it ?

34 779 + 7 options + enough purchase rights for 64 total planes
25 359 + 15 options + enough purchase rights for ~55ish total planes.

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:47:16]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-19 02:53:22 and read 41931 times.

787-9 considered was considered as being too small, the 787-10 was excluded because it has not enough range for Lufthansa.

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:55:06]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-09-19 02:54:12 and read 41905 times.

And here the Boeing statement on the Boeing order:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=20295&item=128804

I am quite please to finally see the 777 at LH. LH Cargo makes the beginning and then the new 777 will join LH.

wilco737
  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: ap305
Posted 2013-09-19 02:55:10 and read 41667 times.

A great order for LH securing it's future widebody fleet. Good day for both Airbus and Boeing.Airbus leaving the 400 seat market to Boeing will last for how long I wonder?. Once EK puts in for a few hundred 777x, perhaps Airbus will wake up. I suspect the response will be a all new, all cfrp twin rather than a a350 stretch but this may also cannibalize the a388.

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:58:28]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-09-19 02:55:25 and read 41629 times.

An impressive order, you suspect that a lot of airlines will be ordering and operating mixed widebody fleets going forward, as each plane (787, A350, 777-9) seems to have its own sweet spot

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:57:04 and read 41698 times.

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/5T1SK0_DLH_777X_Air_Right_PS_01C_01.jpg

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/Y5JQHT_DLH_777X_PS_01B_01.jpg

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/ODU6G3_7779X_Lufthansa_Engine_Nose_PS_01A_01.jpg

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/A350-900_RR_DLH_V04_01.jpg

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/A350-900_RR_DLH_V10_01.jpg

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/A350-900_RR_DLH_V15_01.jpg

The source of these pictures is http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/themen/fleet-development.html

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:58:29 by wilco737]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 02:58:39 and read 41510 times.

Quoting ap305 (Reply 30):
Airbus leaving the 400 seat market to Boeing will last for how long I wonder?. Once EK puts in for a few hundred 777x, perhaps Airbus will wake up. I suspect the response will be a all new, all cfrp twin rather than a a350 stretch but this may also cannibalize the a388.

Airbus can take the 350 seat market for themselves.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 02:58:44 and read 41372 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 27):
34 779 + 7 options + enough purchase rights for 64 total planes
25 359 + 15 options + enough purchase rights for ~55ish total planes.

In todays order there is no room for expansion yet, only with these purchase rights they can expand and for example replace Swiss 77Ws after 2025 which seems very logical to me as I doubt that Swiss would accept to fly an inferior plane to LH for more than a few years. They can also replace all the A330s in the group, and maybe even the 748i after 2030. But before all that I think that LH will place a sizable A380 order once Airbus is offering a modernized version around the end of this decade which will better the A350/77X economics.

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:59:53]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: airboe
Posted 2013-09-19 03:01:31 and read 41444 times.

What about the 748:
Please correct me if I'am wrong - but originally 20 orders and 20 purchase rights. Then 1 was cancelled: it stands now at 19 orders and 20 purchase rights(?): is this correct?

But a word about the purchase right, - I guess they will be shelved...



KR/

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-09-19 03:03:53 and read 41293 times.

As a short throwback to the thread about the LH order rumour where some people speculated that, if Boeing got a large/larger share, LH wouldn't announce the order before the general elections (which take place this Sunday)...
a) They still did announce the order before the general elections
b) As PanHAM and others (myself included) predicted, the fact that the larger part of the order goes to a US-based manufacturer does not even register with the public.

Interestingly, Lufthansa themselves do emphasise that, due to the globalised supply chains of Airbus and Boeing, every single 777X and every single A350 will provide as many jobs in Germany as a medium-sized enterprise.

By the way - it seems Franz isn't leaving until summer 2014, so it was still him that announced the order during the press conference, i.e. the speculation about the order being delayed because of the handover to his successor happening was obviously irrelevant  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: icebird757
Posted 2013-09-19 03:04:37 and read 41072 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):

Anyone else notice that there is no Austrian Airlines on the chart for 2025?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: bobmuc
Posted 2013-09-19 03:05:33 and read 41135 times.

Slides from the press conference:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/filead...entation_PK_Flottenentwicklung.pdf

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:06:16 and read 40936 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 28):
787-9 considered was considered as being too small, the 787-10 was excluded because it has not enough range for Lufthansa.

Just as expected, this is in line with the numbers people calculated here in the previous thread.

[Edited 2013-09-19 03:06:42]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-09-19 03:09:40 and read 40804 times.

Quoting icebird757 (Reply 37):
Anyone else notice that there is no Austrian Airlines on the chart for 2025?

Yup - but then again, their current widebody types are up for replacement, while the new types coming in (777X and A350) are only shown in manufacturer livery, i.e. I would assume they'll get distributed across LH group as fits the business for AUA, LH and Swiss.


Interesting to note by the way that, given an assumed launch of the 777X later this year and first deliveries in 2020, Boeing is scheduling as much time for 777X development as Airbus had originally scheduled for the A350.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-09-19 03:11:10 and read 40750 times.

As per the statement from LH themselves,

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
The new aeroplanes will primarily serve to replace existing aircraft at Lufthansa.


Think it is safe to say we should expect addtional LH Group orders for LX, SN and OS. The 787 may still have a role to play with either of those carriers.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: airboe
Posted 2013-09-19 03:11:25 and read 40810 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 38):
Slides from the press conference:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/filead...g.pdf

On page 3: how it should be interpreted: 748: 15 frames from 2013-2025: total order for 15 - or 15 frames more than now?


????


KR/

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: bobmuc
Posted 2013-09-19 03:12:59 and read 40625 times.

And now the Airbus statement online:
http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...ustomer-commits-to-up-to-55-a350s/

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 03:14:09 and read 40502 times.

Quoting icebird757 (Reply 37):

Anyone else notice that there is no Austrian Airlines on the chart for 2025?

neither the 359 nor 779 tails had airline logos. Both were manufacturer tails, so I wouldn't read anything into that. Likely the Austrian Airlines will operate 359s as part of the order.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:16:19 and read 40461 times.

Lufthansa exec also says deal allows some flexibility to take A350-1000 instead of A350-900s.

Quote:
Lufthansa also has the flexibility to convert some of the order to the larger A350-1000.
http://twitter.com/ReutersAero/status/380635237127958528
http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...ustomer-commits-to-up-to-55-a350s/

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 38):
Slides from the press conference:

Few interesting points from that presentation:

> 744 will be replaced by 748 and 779
> A346 will be replaced by 779 and A359
> A343 will be replaced by A359
> 777-9 fuel burn per passenger of 2.9 L per 100km

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: TP313
Posted 2013-09-19 03:17:05 and read 40398 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 36):
if Boeing got a large/larger share, LH wouldn't announce the order before the general elections (which take place this Sunday)...

Sorry, but I have to put things straight here:
a) What I said was my opinion and was stated as my opinion, not as a rumour.
b) What I said was that if the order was announced after the election day, it could be an indication that it would be single sourced to Boeing, and not an Airbus or a mixed order.
If you want feel free to check what I wrote in the respective thread.
I would like to kindly ask you to refrain from distorting my words or intentions in this forum if you please.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: bobmuc
Posted 2013-09-19 03:17:31 and read 40363 times.

Quoting airboe (Reply 42):
On page 3: how it should be interpreted: 748: 15 frames from 2013-2025: total order for 15 - or 15 frames more than now?

This slide shows only the number of planned deliveries! Not orders!

How many 748 has LH received in 2012?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Flying-Tiger
Posted 2013-09-19 03:19:16 and read 40357 times.

Interesting enough the selection of the B777-900X leaves room "downwards" for the -800X, and the A350-900 leaves room "upwards" for the -1000 (and downwards for the -800). Gives me the feeling that there will be a decision between the 777-800X and A350-1000 at one point in future depending on the performance of the twins.

Anyway, interesting and good decision IMO.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:20:15 and read 40183 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 47):
How many 748 has LH received in 2012?

Four, and five this year.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 03:22:49 and read 40124 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 41):
Think it is safe to say we should expect addtional LH Group orders for LX, SN and OS. The 787 may still have a role to play with either of those carriers.

Possibly, but likely LH wants to refurb the widebody fleets of LX, SN, and OS with the purchase rights/options included in this order.

Quoting airboe (Reply 42):
On page 3: how it should be interpreted: 748: 15 frames from 2013-2025: total order for 15 - or 15 frames more than now?

likely the 5 delivered this year plus the 10 remaining orders.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: thegivenone
Posted 2013-09-19 03:23:45 and read 40046 times.

Congrats to Lufthansa, Boeing and Airbus! This is incredibly news and I cannot wait to see the new birds fly (or to sit in them).

The renderings look absolutely gorgeous -- I love much work LH puts into these (in addition to the scale models that were present for the press conference).

Now let's see what happens to the OS fleet -- there is a noticeable absence in the 2025 table and in the press conference, they said that there were no concrete plans yet.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 03:25:31 and read 39066 times.

Quoting thegivenone (Reply 51):
The renderings look absolutely gorgeous -- I love much work LH puts into these (in addition to the scale models that were present for the press conference).

yeah, always interesting the difference between the boeing high and tight engine config and the Airbus low and out engine config.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: bobmuc
Posted 2013-09-19 03:25:38 and read 39136 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
Few interesting points from that presentation:

> 744 will be replaced by 748 and 779
> A346 will be replaced by 779 and A359
> A343 will be replaced by A359
> 777-9 fuel burn per passenger of 2.9 L per 100km

I read it a litle bit different:

A346 will be replaced by 779 and A359 -> or the A346 will stay longer in the fleet if the growth is more like 5%. but in the long term, YES. (Comment from Mr. Spohr).

"2.9 L per 100km" is on the slide with both aircraft: 777-9 + 350-900, so not for the 777 per se.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 03:25:45 and read 39095 times.

Quoting icebird757 (Reply 37):
Anyone else notice that there is no Austrian Airlines on the chart for 2025?

Only reason is they didnt produce new illustrations for this chart.

Quoting airboe (Reply 42):
On page 3: how it should be interpreted: 748: 15 frames from 2013-2025: total order for 15 - or 15 frames more than now?
LH received five 748s this year, and 10 more are to come from the existing order.
There will be no further A330s as well.
The 45 777s until 2025 in the chart include freighters and the Swiss 77W order.
I doubt that four further A380s will be all they will get until then.

[Edited 2013-09-19 03:28:36]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:25:54 and read 39055 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 50):
likely the 5 delivered this year plus the 10 remaining orders.

Indeed, it says deliveries from 2013.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-09-19 03:27:36 and read 39061 times.

Ironic that LH launches the 748i, and then launches the plane that kills it.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:27:52 and read 38998 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 53):
"2.9 L per 100km" is on the slide with both aircraft: 777-9 + 350-900, so not for the 777 per se.

You are right, I stand corrected.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: TYCOON
Posted 2013-09-19 03:27:53 and read 39133 times.

This forum has criticized time and again the 10-seat abreast in Y class on AF, EK, etc... Sadly, it looks like this will be the new norm....

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 03:30:20 and read 38897 times.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 58):
This forum has criticized time and again the 10-seat abreast in Y class on AF, EK, etc... Sadly, it looks like this will be the new norm....

little bit of difference with the 77X in that they have the additional width to have the same seat width as has been standard for decades in long haul on the 747.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 03:32:20 and read 38801 times.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 58):
This forum has criticized time and again the 10-seat abreast in Y class on AF, EK, etc... Sadly, it looks like this will be the new norm....

Its up to everyone if he wants to support that bad trend! I wont fly LHs 777X in Eco, its first time I say something like that about LH!

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 56):
Ironic that LH launches the 748i, and then launches the plane that kills it.

Thats more Boeing´s and GE´s fault to initially underdeliver on the 748 and the hope of everyone to deliver on the 777X - which isnt guaranteed!

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:32:54 and read 38875 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 59):
little bit of difference with the 77X in that they have the additional width to have the same seat width as has been standard for decades in long haul on the 747.

Indeed. The seat cushion on-board the 777X is rumored to be 17.4" which is basically the same as the 17.5" seats on the 744. I don't think anyone will notice the difference.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:37:04 and read 38589 times.

Quoting na (Reply 60):
Its up to everyone if he wants to support that bad trend! I wont fly LHs 777X in Eco, its first time I say something like that about LH!

Relax. As said in my above post, you'll probably not notice any difference because seat width will be about the same.

Quoting na (Reply 60):
Thats more Boeing´s and GE´s fault to initially underdeliver on the 748 and the hope of everyone to deliver on the 777X - which isnt guaranteed!

Even if the 748 was at spec, I doubt if the 2-3% efficiency increase would have made any big difference for Lufthansa's fleet decision.

[Edited 2013-09-19 03:40:25]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2013-09-19 03:37:14 and read 38603 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 29):
I am quite please to finally see the 777 at LH.

   Who would have thought a few years ago? I certainly didn't. And I was also convinced this would be an all Airbus order, A350-1000 to replace A346s. But I had it wrong... LH obviously sees a good place for an airplane the size of the 777-9 in its fleet. And it looks great as well IMO (sorry, NA   ) I personally find this one of the most exciting order announcements of the past few years   

Quoting na (Reply 22):
You forgot that the 777s and naturally the old 767s of AUA will also be axed according to the fleet plan. So its quite clear to me AUA will receive some of the A350s.

OS should be all A350. So will SN. Looks like the 777X options would be for LX (and LH themselves of course)

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
Quoting columba (Reply 17):Also glad to see the 747-8I will stay for a little while
Indeed, that was just speculation by other people. No way Lufthansa would retire those 748s within 10 years after purchase.

Great!   

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 33):
Airbus can take the 350 seat market for themselves.

Well, there will be the 777-8... But the A350-1000 should by far have the upper hand in this segment.

Quoting columba (Reply 28):
787-9 considered was considered as being too small, the 787-10 was excluded because it has not enough range for Lufthansa.

I suspect the 787-10 will be reconsidered when it's time to replace the A333s. But that will be many, many years away.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 41):
Think it is safe to say we should expect addtional LH Group orders for LX, SN and OS. The 787 may still have a role to play with either of those carriers.

Doesn't look like it, when I see the chart Karel posted at reply 14. Only when it's time replace LX's A333s perhaps, but that won't happen for quite a while.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 03:39:06 and read 38412 times.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 63):
Well, there will be the 777-8... But the A350-1000 should by far have the upper hand in this segment.

Yes but we all know how well ULH airframes are selling.

[Edited 2013-09-19 03:39:51]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: airboe
Posted 2013-09-19 03:43:14 and read 38179 times.

Quoting na (Reply 54):
Quoting airboe (Reply 42):On page 3: how it should be interpreted: 748: 15 frames from 2013-2025: total order for 15 - or 15 frames more than now?
LH received five 748s this year, and 10 more are to come from the existing order.
There will be no further A330s as well.
The 45 777s until 2025 in the chart include freighters and the Swiss 77W order.
I doubt that four further A380s will be all they will get until then.

So i guess they will not excercise any of the purchase rights for 748 (?).
If that is the case a truly sad thing for the 748 line..

KR

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2013-09-19 03:44:11 and read 38181 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 64):
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 63):Well, there will be the 777-8... But the A350-1000 should by far have the upper hand in this segment.Yes but we all know how well ULH airframes are selling.

Yes, that's why I believe the A35J will have the upper hand. But let's wait and see how many 777-8's EK will order. They said it will play a big part in its future fleet, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them ordering more 778s than all 77Ls cumulated orders so far  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2013-09-19 03:52:20 and read 37745 times.

It seems more and more that "well-run airline" and "777 operator" are becoming synonymous. The recent LX 777 order was prophetic after all.

Also, we are surely witnessing the end of the VLA era, with one of the long-standing champions of VLAs past and present clearly moving its focus towards large widebody twins.

What a wonderful, efficient, economical, monotonous future we have ahead of us!

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 04:00:28 and read 37409 times.

Quoting airboe (Reply 65):
So i guess they will not excercise any of the purchase rights for 748 (?).
If that is the case a truly sad thing for the 748 line..

It would be very sad indeed. But with so many 777X on order+options its rather unlikely that all of the 20 options will be exercised. I could see 5 more for expansion, but I have my doubts now even about a minor add-on order. Pax feedback for the 748I continues to be very good.
That said, the 2025 fleet chart of course only covers existing orders. A lot can happen in 12 years time and there will surely be widebody orders of a much smaller scale until then. You can almost bet on a few more A380s, and you can be 100% sure that towards the end of this decade the LH/Swiss A330 replacement order will be placed. And Brussels A330s need to be replaced before 2020 as some are approaching 20 years of age now.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-09-19 04:02:51 and read 37286 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 53):

"2.9 L per 100km" is on the slide with both aircraft: 777-9 + 350-900, so not for the 777 per se.

I know that the comparable numbers for the A380 and 748 have been posted numerous times, but I have forgotten them. Could someone refresh my memory? Thanks.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: bthebest
Posted 2013-09-19 04:06:14 and read 37090 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 38):
Slides from the press conference:http://www.lufthansagroup.com/filead...entation_PK_Flottenentwicklung.pdf
Quoting na (Reply 54):
more than now?LH received five 748s this year, and 10 more are to come from the existing order. There will be no further A330s as well.The 45 777s until 2025 in the chart include freighters and the Swiss 77W order.I doubt that four further A380s will be all they will get until then.

The slide indicates 3 more A330 deliveries - they have 1 on order and 2 options. They seem pretty certain about what's going to happen. Does look strange with only the 4 A380 deliveries though.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 04:10:23 and read 36923 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 69):
I know that the comparable numbers for the A380 and 748 have been posted numerous times, but I have forgotten them. Could someone refresh my memory? Thanks.

Airbus claims "less than" 3 L per passenger for a 525-seat A380 but I have seen 3.1 L too. Not sure what the number would be with the new 558-seat cabin configuration.

[Edited 2013-09-19 04:11:50]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-09-19 04:11:44 and read 37041 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 69):
I know that the comparable numbers for the A380 and 748 have been posted numerous times, but I have forgotten them.


A388: 3.4 liters per 100km
B748: 3.7 liters per 100km (386 Seats)
B748: 3.8 liters per 100km (362 Seats)

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2013-09-19 04:14:11 and read 36922 times.

Quoting bthebest (Reply 70):
Does look strange with only the 4 A380 deliveries though.

The VLA is dead, IMHO. This LH order and the chart on those slides say it all.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 71):
Airbus claims "less than" 3 L per passenger for a 525-seat passenger.

And herein lies the dilemma for the A380 and 748i. With smaller and more flexible large widebody twins reaching the same level of efficiency, what's the point of operating much bigger planes which have to be filled with passengers? Slot restrictions alone will not carry the VLA programs, as is becoming more and more apparent.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 04:15:26 and read 36799 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 53):
"2.9 L per 100km" is on the slide with both aircraft: 777-9 + 350-900, so not for the 777 per se.

Theoretical figures, like the 3 l for the A380. With LHs premium-heavy cabin I doubt that A350 and 777X will significantly better the A380.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: transaeroyyz
Posted 2013-09-19 04:15:51 and read 36715 times.

Wouldnt this be a good time to update the livery a bit, I think its time. Being one of the most clsssic liveries of all time, it won't be easy but an order of this caliber should get something.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 04:20:33 and read 36474 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 73):
The VLA is dead, IMHO. This LH order and the chart on those slides say it all.

Dead? No way. Its marketshare might be shrinking a bit, but they are here to stay.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 73):
With smaller and more flexible large widebody twins reaching the same level of efficiency

You seem to think that the A380 wont be further advanced, beating the a350 and 777X again.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 04:21:21 and read 36176 times.

Quoting na (Reply 74):
Theoretical figures, like the 3 l for the A380. With LHs premium-heavy cabin I doubt that A350 and 777X will significantly better the A380.

Of course they are theoretical, but we need something to compare with.

Those numbers are based on the total amount of seats, more seats = lower fuel burn per passenger. Emirates 2-class 777-300ER aircraft with > 400 seats for example have a fuel burn of 2.8 L per passenger per 100km.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: FlyingAY
Posted 2013-09-19 04:26:45 and read 35944 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 73):

And herein lies the dilemma for the A380 and 748i. With smaller and more flexible large widebody twins reaching the same level of efficiency, what's the point of operating much bigger planes which have to be filled with passengers? Slot restrictions alone will not carry the VLA programs, as is becoming more and more apparent.

On the other hand LH just choose rather big planes to replace their existing ones. The average size has been growing all the times, so it's not unthinkable that there are operators who find VLA needs in their fleet. If the large widebodies are able to reach the same level of efficiency then they have introduced some technology that will make a VLA to be even more efficient. I'm sure you'd agree that the bigger the plane is the higher the efficiency (if you can fill it!). No doubt 777-9 will be more efficient than 777-8.

Furthermore the fuel cost is not the only cost associated to a flight. There are staff costs (an A380 requires the same amount of pilots as an A350), landing fees, parking fees etc...

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-09-19 04:27:27 and read 36091 times.

Quoting airboe (Reply 65):
So i guess they will not excercise any of the purchase rights for 748 (?).
If that is the case a truly sad thing for the 748 line..

It really died the day the 779 was launched (or more accurately, as soon as it was mooted, as most airlines held off); sad, but it's way with all great aircraft. All of today's aircraft will one day be "old hat"; the 747 will however see 50 years of service with LH, in 2020, so that will hopefully be marked.

The 779X rough the same length, same wingspan, almost as wide and does exactly the same with two engines; it's pretty much a no brainer.

Good news for the A350 as well, as this pushed total orders over the 700 mark.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 04:29:56 and read 35945 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 79):
as this pushed total orders over the 700 mark.

Backlog is 707 to be precise, that's a magical Boeing number  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2013-09-19 04:34:04 and read 35596 times.

Quoting na (Reply 76):
Dead? No way. Its marketshare might be shrinking a bit, but they are here to stay.

Well, all VLAs will not spontaneously disappear from the face of the earth, but their era is certainly over. We have waited for a VLA renaissance for 13 years since the A380 was first offered for sale, through economic booms and recessions, and through rising and falling air travel, and through wild oscillations in oil price. And what is the situation after almost one and a half decades? YEARS pass between VLA orders - and when they happen, we often talk about 2 or 3 frames each. Significant new customers are nowhere in sight, the current VLA programs struggle to ever reach break-even. Whole continents have opted against ordering any of the current VLA generation.

At the same time, each airline somehow capable of gathering enough money is in a rush to order dozens and dozens of the new widebody twins as soon as possible. Orders are pouring in every week, for both A and B.

What does this tell you?

Quoting na (Reply 76):
You seem to think that the A380 wont be further advanced, beating the a350 and 777X again.

Any yet, it remains a losing game. At best, they can catch up and be ahead by a few percent for some years. The thing is, they would need to blow the widebody twins out of the water with a significantly better efficiency to compensate for their obvious operational drawbacks.

That is simply never going to happen.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 04:44:34 and read 35132 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 77):
Those numbers are based on the total amount of seats, more seats = lower fuel burn per passenger. Emirates 2-class 777-300ER aircraft with > 400 seats for example have a fuel burn of 2.8 L per passenger per 100km.

And what will Transaero´s and Skymark´s Y-heavy A380 deliver? 2,6l? Better than any 777W for sure.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: dan23
Posted 2013-09-19 04:47:51 and read 35116 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 21):

Those will be the largest jet engines ever hung on an aircraft...so the 777-9X will do well to make them look small  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Someone83
Posted 2013-09-19 04:52:33 and read 34858 times.

Quoting na (Reply 76):
Dead? No way. Its marketshare might be shrinking a bit, but they are here to stay.

And it also might push Airbus a come up with a A380-900 with EIS 2020-2025

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 04:54:37 and read 34858 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 81):
Any yet, it remains a losing game. At best, they can catch up and be ahead by a few percent for some years. The thing is, they would need to blow the widebody twins out of the water with a significantly better efficiency to compensate for their obvious operational drawbacks.

What drawbacks? A new A380 version by 2025 with new engines will set it right again I am sure and it´ll offer significantly better efficiency again to justify its existence.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 81):
That is simply never going to happen.

You should name yourself Cassandra 

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Scipio
Posted 2013-09-19 04:56:23 and read 34677 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 81):
YEARS pass between VLA orders - and when they happen, we often talk about 2 or 3 frames each.

Please check your facts. Since the A380 was launched, not a single year has passed without new orders.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 81):
Significant new customers are nowhere in sight,

A new customer announced an order for 20 A380s at Le Bourget a few months ago. And at the same occasion, KAL announced an order for 5 B748i's.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 81):
Whole continents have opted against ordering any of the current VLA generation.

Another grotesque exaggeration. Indeed, no operator from Antarctica has ordered A380s or B748s... And if you consider South America a separate continent, the same can be said of it for the time being. Operators from all other continents have ordered VLAs.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2013-09-19 05:20:39 and read 33658 times.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 86):
Please check your facts. Since the A380 was launched, not a single year has passed without new orders.

Well, I will apologize for this. I should have worded it more carefully. Sometimes, only about a year passes between "spectacular" top-up orders by existing operators for 2 planes or so each.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 86):
A new customer announced an order for 20 A380s at Le Bourget a few months ago. And at the same occasion, KAL announced an order for 5 B748i's.

Sorry, but previously unheard-of entity Doric is hardly a significant new customer, as I wrote.

And KAL may be a respected airline, but again - 5 planes. Hardly a resounding victory for the VLA compared to the THOUSANDS of A350s / 787s / 777Xs flying off the shelves within the span of a few months.

Let's talk again when DL, AA, UA and AC order two dozen A380s each within a week. That would still only be a fraction of the widebody twin action which we're seeing, and a type of activity that would only still merely suffice as a stepping stone towards BREAK EVEN for the VLA programs.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 86):
Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 81):
Whole continents have opted against ordering any of the current VLA generation.

Another grotesque exaggeration.

Which North American airline plans to introduce passenger VLAs?

The only thing which is grotesque here is the lack of sense of proportion with which a.net celebrates 2- or 5-frame VLA orders as "historic" while A and B sell 4-digit numbers of widebody twins at the same time. Still, some poeple refuse to see ANY trend here.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2013-09-19 05:23:05 and read 33609 times.

Why didn't they just stick to the A350? They could have gotten the A350-1000 instead of the 779X? couldn't they? Why was the 779X considered a better choice? after all it is a 20 year old design.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2013-09-19 05:26:24 and read 33463 times.

Quoting na (Reply 85):
What drawbacks? A new A380 version by 2025 with new engines will set it right again I am sure and it´ll offer significantly better efficiency again to justify its existence.

Even if the A380 manages to catch up, would that make a difference? The A380 WAS IN FACT the most efficient airliner in existence for several years. EVEN THEN it failed to gain the reliable global traction among big airlines required to make the program really worthwhile. Now, with the efficient new widebody twins on the horizon, orders have effectively dried up. That is the situation, bitter as it may be. Even when they catch up again, we only will be back in the barely-viable situation. Hardly a splendid outlook.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-09-19 05:30:39 and read 33283 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
KarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 4507 posts, RR: 7

Not to start an A vs B thing, but B has better CGI, IMHO. I look at the A350 rendering and it screams CGI, especially the shading of the tail. I look at the 779 rendering and it's the closest thing I've seen to photo-realism.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 56):
Ironic that LH launches the 748i, and then launches the plane that kills it.

That it does. If B had any doubts about the 748i being dead, this kills them. The fact that LH Group is now a 77F customer as well as general trends in the rest of the air freight industry doesn't bode too well for 748F either. The 748 is going the way of the Model T.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 05:33:51 and read 33203 times.

Quoting na (Reply 82):
And what will Transaero´s and Skymark´s Y-heavy A380 deliver? 2,6l? Better than any 777W for sure.

No doubt an 640-seat A380 like Transaero will have a lower fuel burn per passenger than the 77W. But this is all comparing apples and bananas. For example, Korean Air's A380s have only 407 seats which would mean they have a terrible fuel burn per passenger. However, the whole upper deck is business class which means this configuration might generate a higher revenue than an 525-seat A380. So what is fuel burn per passenger telling us?

Skymark A380s will have even less seats: 114 J seats and 280 Y+ seats, = 394 total.

[Edited 2013-09-19 05:35:16]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 05:37:54 and read 32999 times.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 86):
A new customer announced an order for 20 A380s at Le Bourget a few months ago. And at the same occasion, KAL announced an order for 5 B748i's.

While the Doric LoI for the 380 was certainly good news for Airbus, it is a bit much to call them a customer. They are a finance lease company operating on some pretty grey legal margins that has never successfully managed nor attempted to buy and place a single lease frame in their history. This is a completely new biz venture for Doric and on that they are no different than Kingfisher Airlines. Its a mighty stretch to call them a customer at this point. When they have an actual contract in hand for an actual customer, it would be reasonable to call them a 380 customer, but before then we know very little about the actual content of the LoI or if they'll ever take a single frame.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-19 05:38:30 and read 32912 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 90):
The 748 is going the way of the Model T.

As the 777 will do as well in the future!

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 05:41:49 and read 32955 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 88):
Why didn't they just stick to the A350? They could have gotten the A350-1000 instead of the 779X? couldn't they? Why was the 779X considered a better choice? after all it is a 20 year old design.

The A350-1000 is in the same size as the A340-600 and Lufthansa was looking for something bigger, so it seems. Although they have conversion rights for the larger A350.

Quoting spink (Reply 92):
but before then we know very little about the actual content of the LoI or if they'll ever take a single frame.

We have to wait indeed, but they said to firm the order later this year.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-09-19 05:43:31 and read 32957 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 88):
Why was the 779X considered a better choice? after all it is a 20 year old design

The 777-9 is larger than the A350-1000 and the 777-9 is not your father's 777.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-19 05:48:13 and read 32667 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 29):
I am quite please to finally see the 777 at LH.

Your new Baby after the 747 ?  
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 88):

Why didn't they just stick to the A350? They could have gotten the A350-1000 instead of the 779X? couldn't they? Why was the 779X considered a better choice? after all it is a 20 year old design.

As to their press conference and to the Airbus press release have options to change their options of the -900 to the -1000.
They have opted for the 777-9X because they:

a) don´t want to rely on one manufacturer only
b) the 777-9X is bigger as the A350-1000

Regarding the 20 years old design how about the 737Max and A320NEO ? Seems to work here as well. The 777-9X gets a new composite wing and new engines.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Speedbored
Posted 2013-09-19 05:48:25 and read 32605 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 92):
They are a finance lease company operating on some pretty grey legal margins

Care to provide some facts to back up this potentially libelous statement?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 05:49:46 and read 32566 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 88):
Why didn't they just stick to the A350? They could have gotten the A350-1000 instead of the 779X? couldn't they? Why was the 779X considered a better choice? after all it is a 20 year old design.

35J wasn't large enough to give them enough seats and doesn't have the payload-range capabilities of the 779. LH was looking for a significant capacity increase over the 346 and at least passenger parity with the 744er which the 779 provides. In addition, the 779 can do any route in the LH network with full cargo and can carry more cargo volume than any other plane out there. LH obviously had/has a lot more information than anyone here has on both the 35J and the 779 and determined that the 779 provides a significant capability advantage over the 35J option. We don't know exactly what their internal analysis was, but it is likely the capacity and payload-range differentials played a factor.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 05:50:49 and read 32560 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 53):
A346 will be replaced by 779 and A359 -> or the A346 will stay longer in the fleet if the growth is more like 5%. but in the long term, YES. (Comment from Mr. Spohr).

It indeed looks that way. Per aviationweek.com:

Quote:
Lufthansa plans to replace 13 747-400s and 17 A340-300s. Should the airline decide to cut capacity plans further, it would also start retiring its fleet of 24 A340-600s. The airline has laid out a baseline scenario which sees it grow long-haul capacity by 3% a year, and a more conservative approach would bring that down to 1%. If 25 options are exercised, the carrier could grow by 5% a year.

One would think they replace those A346s asap but no, Lufthansa flies their aircraft for 20 years at least.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....p0-618412.xml#.UjrxeFjcRQ4.twitter

[Edited 2013-09-19 05:52:22]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2013-09-19 06:04:09 and read 32036 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 90):
That it does. If B had any doubts about the 748i being dead, this kills them. The fact that LH Group is now a 77F customer as well as general trends in the rest of the air freight industry doesn't bode too well for 748F either. The 748 is going the way of the Model T.

As much as I hate to agree with you on this, it appears that this order confirms what many of us have believed for a few years now... The days of the 4-holers are coming to an end, at least as new builds.

Great to see the triple 7 in LH livery though. Congrats to Lufthansa, Boeing and Airbus. The rumors of the Boeing deal were flying around Lufthansa's NY offices for several weeks now. I'm glad that it has been now confirmed.   

[Edited 2013-09-19 06:05:53]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-09-19 06:13:12 and read 31676 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 92):
While the Doric LoI for the 380 was certainly good news for Airbus, it is a bit much to call them a customer. They are a finance lease company operating on some pretty grey legal margins that has never successfully managed nor attempted to buy and place a single lease frame in their history.

That 'grey legal margins' stuff sounds more than a bit 'actionable,' spink?

As it happens, I did a fair bit of 'leasing' in my time. Buildings, not aeroplanes, but the principles are the same. My guess is that, finding that they couldn't sell A380s any more, Airbus hired Doric to try to lease some for them - in return for fees? No 'legal' problems about that?

Anyway, it doesn't seem to have worked. My personal view is that, given that engines are getting more and more powerful, the 'big fours' that both manufacturers have 'gloried in' for many years are just plain 'old-fashioned'? And therefore largely unsaleable?

Won't bother Boeing unduly - they have the 787/777 to fall back on, both of which are selling quite well. But it appears to present a big problem for Airbus - who have no 'big twin' in prospect for some time to come, given that even the first version of the A350 is more than six months away from flying?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: pascal7z
Posted 2013-09-19 06:13:18 and read 31538 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 99):
One would think they replace those A346s asap but no, Lufthansa flies their aircraft for 20 years at least.

The statement made by Lufthansa in the internal announcement is as follows:
"From 2016 until 2025, they will replace older Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A340-300 aircraft"

Yes, the A340-600 will stay longer. And it is for the moment a good workhorse for them.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: trent900
Posted 2013-09-19 06:14:34 and read 31396 times.

Congratulations to LH, Airbus and Boeing.

Quoting spink (Reply 98):
In addition, the 779 can do any route in the LH network with full cargo and can carry more cargo volume than any other plane out there.

I'm sure you mean the 779 may be able to, considering its still a paper aeroplane.

D.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 06:14:59 and read 31376 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 92):
While the Doric LoI for the 380 was certainly good news for Airbus, it is a bit much to call them a customer. They are a finance lease company operating on some pretty grey legal margins that has never successfully managed nor attempted to buy and place a single lease frame in their history

They are a fairly major lessor and asset management company, and they are no different from a GECAS or an ILFC in that they buy and lease out aircraft. They already have 10 A380s leased out. So you have no idea what you are talking about.

Quoting spink (Reply 92):
This is a completely new biz venture for Doric and on that they are no different than Kingfisher Airlines

Again, you have NO idea of what you are talking about!

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Speedbored
Posted 2013-09-19 06:15:02 and read 31404 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
given that even the first version of the A350 is more than six months away from flying?

It's flying right now, actually.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-09-19 06:17:28 and read 31288 times.

Sorry, you're right, Speedbored - should have said 'entering service'...........

[Edited 2013-09-19 06:21:02]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Speedbored
Posted 2013-09-19 06:18:50 and read 31236 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 104):
They already have 10 A380s leased out.

They actually have 19 on-lease at the moment:
www.doric.com/Investments.4.0.html

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 06:18:58 and read 31226 times.

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 97):

Care to provide some facts to back up this potentially libelous statement?

Yes easily, most of the deals that Doric has put together over the years push into brutally new areas of finance (this isn't hard to verify, pretty much any article about the financial vehicles used by doric will have "first of its kind" or "never before applied", etc. They are pushing into significant legal/financial gray areas with generally no concrete case law behind them). In addition, the way the deals are structured Doric has virtually no liability meaning that all the risk is primarily held by individual investors for individual planes. Doric itself acts as a middle man effectively rounding up investors to fund a new company for every plane it leases.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 06:19:28 and read 31269 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
As it happens, I did a fair bit of 'leasing' in my time. Buildings, not aeroplanes, but the principles are the same. My guess is that, finding that they couldn't sell A380s any more, Airbus hired Doric to try to lease some for them - in return for fees? No 'legal' problems about that?

Another person who has no idea of what they are taking about. Claims such as this need to be backed up.

"Guesses" like this have another name - libel!

Perhaps you'd be better served doing some basic research, for instance http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...der-mark-lapidus-talks-a380s-49016

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 06:19:58 and read 31232 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
Anyway, it doesn't seem to have worked.

Why, we're only 3 months further? Did you really expect them to sell 20 frames in just 3 months?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 101):
But it appears to present a big problem for Airbus

I don't think they see this as a problem.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 06:23:02 and read 31150 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 108):
Yes easily, most of the deals that Doric has put together over the years push into brutally new areas of finance (this isn't hard to verify, pretty much any article about the financial vehicles used by doric will have "first of its kind" or "never before applied", etc. They are pushing into significant legal/financial gray areas with generally no concrete case law behind them). In addition, the way the deals are structured Doric has virtually no liability meaning that all the risk is primarily held by individual investors for individual planes. Doric itself acts as a middle man effectively rounding up investors to fund a new company for every plane it leases.

So in other words, airlines like Cathay, Singapore, Virgin, and Emirates, all of whom have aircraft -- including A380s -- currently on lease from Doric, don't know their business? You know better than them???

[Edited 2013-09-19 06:25:27]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-09-19 06:23:52 and read 31086 times.

Quoting TP313 (Reply 46):
Sorry, but I have to put things straight here:
a) What I said was my opinion and was stated as my opinion, not as a rumour.
b) What I said was that if the order was announced after the election day, it could be an indication that it would be single sourced to Boeing, and not an Airbus or a mixed order.
If you want feel free to check what I wrote in the respective thread.
I would like to kindly ask you to refrain from distorting my words or intentions in this forum if you please.

Apologies, this was by no means a stab at yourself personally.
Also, I did point out that there was speculation in the other thread about the timing of the order announcement vs the timing of the general election.
Then as now my point is that LH would not make the timing of their announcement dependent on the general election, irrespective of whether A or B get a majority or even 100% of the order.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 06:27:41 and read 30944 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 108):
Yes easily, most of the deals that Doric has put together over the years push into brutally new areas of finance (this isn't hard to verify, pretty much any article about the financial vehicles used by doric will have "first of its kind" or "never before applied", etc. They are pushing into significant legal/financial gray areas with generally no concrete case law behind them). In addition, the way the deals are structured Doric has virtually no liability meaning that all the risk is primarily held by individual investors for individual planes. Doric itself acts as a middle man effectively rounding up investors to fund a new company for every plane it leases.

But who cares if this construction works? Emirates doesn't seem to have a problem with leasing A380s from this company with "grey areas".

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Speedbored
Posted 2013-09-19 06:33:11 and read 30732 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 108):
They are pushing into significant legal/financial gray areas with generally no concrete case law behind them). In addition, the way the deals are structured Doric has virtually no liability meaning that all the risk is primarily held by individual investors for individual planes.

Then I'm in agreement with Sankaps, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Doric have a very good reputation within the finance industry and have been leaders in innovation. But it is, frankly, laughable that you suggest that Doric's customers and investors would be willing to risk hundreds of millions without carrying out legal due-diligence. It is also beyond credibility to suggest that a company like this would be able to get away with legally-grey products when they are under the regulatory supervision of organisations such as FINRA and the SEC in the US, the FCA in the UK, and BaFIN in Germany.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: spink
Posted 2013-09-19 06:36:42 and read 30572 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 104):
They are a fairly major lessor and asset management company, and they are no different from a GECAS or an ILFC in that they buy and lease out aircraft. They already have 10 A380s leased out. So you have no idea what you are talking about.

This is all a bit of a sideline to the topic but...

Doric is significantly different than either GECAS or ILFC as both GECAS and ILFC are first party lessors who buy, place, and assume the risk for the asset being leased. Doric has not previous been a first party lessor, they have never bought, placed, nor assumed the risk for the asset being leased. The business model for Doric is so far is as more of a financial adviser putting together a financial deal and taking a management fee from that deal. Each lease deal that Doric makes is legally and effectively a separate independent company and as such it is technically incorrect to say that Doric has 10 A380s leased out because they don't. Packaged financial instruments as companies that they created have 19 A380s leased out between them, but those are independently managed financial instruments. Its a bit like saying that because you own shares in GE, you have hundreds of planes leased out.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 06:43:30 and read 30339 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 115):
Doric is significantly different than either GECAS or ILFC as both GECAS and ILFC are first party lessors who buy, place, and assume the risk for the asset being leased
Quoting spink (Reply 115):
it is technically incorrect to say that Doric has 10 A380s leased out because they don't. Packaged financial instruments as companies that they created have 19 A380s leased out between them, but those are independently managed financial instruments. Its a bit like saying that because you own shares in GE, you have hundreds of planes leased out.

Having a different business model is different from being "grey area" and shady, which is what your earlier posts suggested. Distinct change of tone in this latest post, evidently once you realized the SQs and EKs of the world lease from them, and probably know their business and risks better than you or I do.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Speedbored
Posted 2013-09-19 06:44:01 and read 30362 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 115):
GECAS or ILFC

So you're saying that GECAS and ILFC don't do sale and leaseback?

Quoting spink (Reply 115):
Each lease deal that Doric makes is legally and effectively a separate independent company and as such it is technically incorrect to say that Doric has 10 A380s leased out because they don't.

So you're also saying that GECAS and ILFC have almost no aircraft on their books, either, as most of them have been securitised?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: moo
Posted 2013-09-19 06:53:02 and read 29998 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 92):
that has never successfully managed nor attempted to buy and place a single lease frame in their history

And at one time, neither had ILFC. At some point, Lufthansa didn't have any aircraft. At one point, Ryanair didn't exist.

Everyone has to take that first step.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 06:54:45 and read 29948 times.

What a monster order! Good for Lufthansa. One of the clear leaders in the industry and a classy airline that does commercial flying the right way. I hope this order contributes to their success.

A couple questions: Is the 777-9x really the third aircraft intended to at least partially replace the 744?

Is it just me or is LH replacing 54 A346s (24) and 744s (original 30) with 72 larger aircraft (19 A380, 19 748i, 34 779)?

Even without the 30 options (which LH likes to at least partially execute) I don't quite see only 5% growth.

In my opinion if most of BA, VS, CX, KE, QF, MH, and AF make similar large orders for the 777-9x its hard to see there being enough demand for a new A380 variant unless it is for A380 replacement with new engines down the road.

tortugamon

edited: holy cow formatting mess

[Edited 2013-09-19 07:35:32]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-09-19 07:07:20 and read 29494 times.

Nice! Until the rumour a few days ago, I never thought I would see the 777 in LH pax colours. Perfect choice by LH, now to see what the wide body orders for other members in the group will be.

At this rate, there could very well be up to 100 firm orders for the 777x by the end of the year considering it's still a few months away from being formally launched.....hopefully changing the views of its rather verbal anet antagonists.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: BoeingMerica
Posted 2013-09-19 07:07:28 and read 29509 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 21):
Both planes look great, but damn the B778 looks too big for its engines  

Good thing they ordered a 777-9X

BoeingMerica

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-09-19 07:08:23 and read 29438 times.

Quoting spink (Reply 115):
The business model for Doric is so far is as more of a financial adviser putting together a financial deal and taking a management fee from that deal.


Strictly speaking, 'taking a leasing fee,' spink. But, in other respects, dead right - and perfectly legal/respectable.

The only problem is that Airbus don't seem able to sell A380s 'outright' any more. But that's their problem, not Doric's...........

Judging by Boeing's recent 'orders column,' they're having the same sort of problems with the 748?

Putting my head on the block, I guess - not for the first time.   But I DO begin to wonder whether, given the advent of much more powerful engines, the selling days of both the B748 AND the A380 are very much numbered?

Some pretty significant 'market changes' ahead, seems to me? In the general direction of 'big twins.'?

[Edited 2013-09-19 07:11:42]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 07:31:38 and read 28699 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):

I find this chart to be odd. Why is there a 100-seat difference between A330 and A359. The chart makes it look like there is definitely a need for an aircraft that is smaller than the A359 yet LH says the 789 is too small and the 787-10 is larger. It looks like most aircraft are positioned with actual seating yet the A359 still has above 300 seats which sounds high (2 class only?)

Quoting columba (Reply 28):
the 787-10 was excluded because it has not enough range for Lufthansa.

We do not know that for sure. I respect other people's opinion on the matter but I think it had to do with capacity (787-10 is too big for an A343 replacement), timing (2016 EIS for these A359s when the 787-10 would have been hard pressed for 2019) and price (It has been noted that Boeing is not significantly discounting the -10). Cargo beyond 4,500nm could have played a roll as well, but I think it is not that clear cut.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):

This is the first I have noticed chevrons on the GE9x.

tortugamon

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 07:33:41 and read 28640 times.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 66):
Yes, that's why I believe the A35J will have the upper hand. But let's wait and see how many 777-8's EK will order. They said it will play a big part in its future fleet, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them ordering more 778s than all 77Ls cumulated orders so far  

Let's put things into perspective. In the future, the 300-400 seat market will feature the following aircraft:

> A350-900: 314 seats, 8100nm
> B787-10: 323 seats, 7000nm
> A350-1000: 350 seats, 8400nm
> B777-8: 353 seats, 9400nm
> B777-9: 407 seats, 8100nm

They all have their own purpose: on the lower hand we have the 78J for the 9-11 hours missions and the A359 for the longer and/or cargo routes. On the upper hand we have the 777-9 for the high pax numbers while the A35J is positioned right in the middle for the 9-abreast 77W operators, or for A340 operators who wants something bigger.

In the longer run, I believe the numbers for the 78J / A359 and the 779 / A35J will be equally split.

Last but no least we have the niche 777-8 for ultra long-haul or high payload routes, but those routes cover only a small percentage of the market. The 777-8 surely has the potential to sell more than today's 777-200LR (more pax = more revenue to cover the trip costs), but that doesn't change the fact that > 95% of the routes doesn't need such an aircraft.

Summary, the 20 years forecast in the 300-400 seat market is 3300 aircraft, which could be split as:

> A359: 900 aircraft (27.27%)
> B78J: 850 aircraft (25.76%)
> A35J: 690 aircraft (20.91%)
> B778: 170 aircraft (5.15%)
> B779: 690 aircraft (20.91%)

If Airbus want a piece of the 5% niche market and launch a -900R, the numbers might look like this:

> A359: 900 aircraft (27.27%)
> A359R: 85 aircraft (2.58%)
> B78J: 850 aircraft (25.76%)
> A35J: 690 aircraft (20.91%)
> B778: 85 aircraft (2.58%)
> B779: 690 aircraft (20.91%)

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 07:36:02 and read 28569 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 123):
We do not know that for sure. I respect other people's opinion on the matter but I think it had to do with capacity (787-10 is too big for an A343 replacement), timing (2016 EIS for these A359s when the 787-10 would have been hard pressed for 2019) and price (It has been noted that Boeing is not significantly discounting the -10). Cargo beyond 4,500nm could have played a roll as well, but I think it is not that clear cut.

It was Lufthansa themselves who said the 787-10 could not cover 40% of their routes.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: NeutronStar73
Posted 2013-09-19 07:37:39 and read 28483 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 109):
Another person who has no idea of what they are taking about. Claims such as this need to be backed up.

I guess you would know about such person....seeing as how you said that since LH didn't buy the 787, it was a "negative" mark on the program because of the "problems", when I, among others, told you it wasn't in the other thread about LH's prospective order.

When:

". “The 787-9 is too small for our requirements and the 787-10 does not have the necessary range for around 40% of the destinations,” says Carsten Spohr, CEO of the passenger airline division.

 

I guess you and airbazar need to talk.....

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2013-09-19 07:56:29 and read 27889 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 28):
the 787-10 was excluded because it has not enough range for Lufthansa.

Ironic, considering that the LH has complained that A and B give their airplanes too much design range capability and the 7810 has more design range than the A333.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 40):
Interesting to note by the way that, given an assumed launch of the 777X later this year and first deliveries in 2020, Boeing is scheduling as much time for 777X development as Airbus had originally scheduled for the A350.

I think engine development is pacing the 777X schedule, not the airframe.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 07:57:18 and read 27850 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 125):
It was Lufthansa themselves who said the 787-10 could not cover 40% of their routes.

I missed that news. Very interesting. Can you post the article or was it in the presser?

tortugamon

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-09-19 08:04:31 and read 27576 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 125):
It was Lufthansa themselves who said the 787-10 could not cover 40% of their routes.

Did they mention what type of routes?

I have to believe it can do all the A330-300 routes, but if they were looking at it for A340-300, A340-600 or 747-400 routes I could see where it could come up short on a fair number of them as those are all deep B-Market airframes.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 08:05:12 and read 27546 times.

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 126):
I guess you would know about such person....seeing as how you said that since LH didn't buy the 787, it was a "negative" mark on the program because of the "problems", when I, among others, told you it wasn't in the other thread about LH's prospective order.

What is your point? Why are you mixing up two different disucssions?

I still maintain (as do several others) that the 787s problems (no need for the air quotes there, these are real and well documented) would very likely have featured in LH's deliberations; it would be naïve to expect that they would not be a factor at all, just as it would also be naive to expect LH to come out and just state it plainly, they are fairly tight-lipped about these things and are not AAB.

Which is different from someone making factually incorrect and libellous statements about the integrity and legality of an entity. Or do you also believe Doric is a sham entity operating as a front for Airbus?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-09-19 08:13:01 and read 27271 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Lufthansa today announced its long-awaited wide-body order. The $19 billion deal will replace B747-400 and A340-300/A340-600 aircraft and looks as follows:

> 25x A350-900 aircraft with first delivery in 2016
> 34x B777-9 aircraft with first delivery in 2020

Very good news for LH, Boeing and Airbus and all their partners. Congratulations are in place for sure! (champagne).

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
They also said to increase the A380 fleet to 19 frames, that means two more to come.

So they will firm up their options which means an additional A380 order after quite a while. (hyper).

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
Quoting Someone83 (Reply 8):
I.e firming up the two A380 from earlier this year?

Correct.

This will likely happen together with the A350s in the coming months.

This to me is very good news on the side.  .

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
well, with the 2 A380s they replace exactly 24 343 24 346 and the remaining 13 744s.
.
That makes the picture complete.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 15):
Congratulations to LH, B and A. I love mixed orders

   As do I.  .

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Congratulations. Thats quite a stunning streamlining of the fleet. Seems by 2025, just like now, LH will have the best fleet worldwide.

For sure they will be with the very best out there. Which is a great prospect to look forward to.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):
I have: Lufthansa 777-9X order can go up to 64, A350-900 up to 55 if all options and purchase rights are converted.

Plenty of room for growth beyond these initial orders.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 39):
Quoting columba (Reply 28):
787-9 considered was considered as being too small, the 787-10 was excluded because it has not enough range for Lufthansa.

Just as expected, this is in line with the numbers people calculated here in the previous thread.

Sometimes the respected members here on A-net have it right, sometimes they are wrong. I am pleased that they were mostly right on this one.  .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
Lufthansa exec also says deal allows some flexibility to take A350-1000 instead of A350-900s.

I can see possibly up to 50% of the A359's being converted into A35J's.   .

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 56):
ronic that LH launches the 748i, and then launches the plane that kills it.

That is ironic indeed.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 63):
And I was also convinced this would be an all Airbus order, A350-1000 to replace A346s. But I had it wrong

I was thinking that this one could have been an all Boeing scoop given the reported interest in the B787-10 which LH was showing. With this almost duopoly order, where Boeing takes a majority, I think everyone is the winner here.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 63):
Well, there will be the 777-8... But the A350-1000 should by far have the upper hand in this segment.

I think so too.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 79):
The 779X rough the same length, same wingspan, almost as wide and does exactly the same with two engines; it's pretty much a no brainer.

Sums it up quite nicely why the B779 will be a success for sure.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 79):
Good news for the A350 as well, as this pushed total orders over the 700 mark.

A very impressive number for such a large wide-body twin with still about 1 year to go before EIS.  .

Quoting Scipio (Reply 86):
Please check your facts. Since the A380 was launched, not a single year has passed without new orders.

And with LH firming up their two options there will at least be some A380 sales this year too. Although Airbus wants to sell more of them of course. The new twins might put more pressure on Airbus to go for the A380-900.         .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 99):
One would think they replace those A346s asap but no, Lufthansa flies their aircraft for 20 years at least.

And makes a decent profit out of them, contrary to what many here believe not to be possible.  .

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 123):
This is the first I have noticed chevrons on the GE9x

Me too. Looks really cool.  .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 124):
Summary, the 20 years forecast in the 300-400 seat market is 3300 aircraft, which could be split as:

> A359: 900 aircraft (27.27%)
> B78J: 850 aircraft (25.76%)
> A35J: 690 aircraft (20.91%)
> B778: 170 aircraft (5.15%)
> B779: 690 aircraft (20.91%)

If Airbus want a piece of the 5% niche market and launch a -900R, the numbers might look like this:

> A359: 900 aircraft (27.27%)
> A359R: 85 aircraft (2.58%)
> B78J: 850 aircraft (25.76%)
> A35J: 690 aircraft (20.91%)
> B778: 85 aircraft (2.58%)
> B779: 690 aircraft (20.91%)

Very nice summary. I guess Boeing and Airbus will be happy if your predictions would turn out to be the real deal.  



[Edited 2013-09-19 08:18:14]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-09-19 08:16:07 and read 27245 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 130):
I still maintain (as do several others) that the 787s problems...would very likely have featured in LH's deliberations...

Except those problems are being identified and rectified.

We have no idea what issues the A350 and 777X are going to encounter during their testing and entries into service. While chances are they won't be to the level the 787 has experienced, it would be naive to assume there will be none and with LH taking delivery so soon after EIS, they are exposing themselves to more risk than if they had chosen the 787, which will had years of maturity under it's wing by the time LH would have taken delivery in 2016 - which they likely could not have for a 787-9 and definitely could not have for a 787-10 since it will not yet be in production.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 130):
...it would be naive to expect that they would not be a factor at all, just as it would also be naive to expect LH to come out and just state it plainly, they are fairly tight-lipped about these things and are not AAB.

What does LH gain by engaging in subterfuge? If they truly share your negative opinion of the 787 program and allow it to color their judgement of it as you do, they should come out and say so and not hide behind "it's too small" or "it lacks the range", even if those are valid reasons for LH not choosing the family at this time (as I believe they are).

I am of the opinion it's not a deal-breaking issue for them, and that they are not saying such things because they don't want to look foolish if they later do decide to purchase the family, either for themselves or for one of their subsidiaries.

[Edited 2013-09-19 08:18:55]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-19 08:18:18 and read 27099 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 123):
We do not know that for sure.

I was quoting Carsten Spohr - head manager of LH passage - at the press conference. He is one of the few persons who definitely knows that for sure  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-19 08:21:49 and read 26956 times.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 127):

Ironic, considering that the LH has complained that A and B give their airplanes too much design range capability and the 7810 has more design range than the A333.

Maybe it is not range per se but cargo capability, hot and high performance etc......

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 08:26:48 and read 26759 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 132):
I am of the opinion it's not a deal-breaking issue for them

I don't disagree. I have said it could well be a contributing factor to them not ordering the 787 at this point in time, given that one would expect what you write below.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 132):
Except those problems are being identified and rectified.

Just like it was a contributing factor for DL, except there the CEO came out pretty much said so himself.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 08:29:41 and read 26759 times.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 127):
Ironic, considering that the LH has complained that A and B give their airplanes too much design range capability and the 7810 has more design range than the A333.

The 7810 has more design range than the A333 but LH needed A340/744 replacements, not A330.

And I believe they were more complaining about the range of the 777-8 / A350-1000; perhaps this was too much range (up to 9400nm) while the 7810 was too short (7000nm) so they chose the 779 and A359, which are right in the middle with a design range of 8100nm.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-09-19 08:30:11 and read 26681 times.

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Saddest part though is the 777X will be 10-abreast, so economy-passengers beware what type you are choosing for your flight in the future!
Quoting na (Reply 60):
Its up to everyone if he wants to support that bad trend! I wont fly LHs 777X in Eco, its first time I say something like that about LH!

You are one of the people I have distinct recollection of being over-the-top vocal over ten abreast on the 777. And you're one of the people who made me most become almost 'fearful' over ever flying on my most favorite aircraft. However, after finally being able to fly on four 77Ws this July in ten abreast EK configuration, I can say that claims like yours are grossly over-exaggerated and melodramatic. I had absolutely zero issues with ten abreast on the 77W, and I'm not exactly short or thin. None of the other dozens of passengers who I flew with, had any complaints, either. My seatmate actually complimented the 77W while in-flight, as it was his first 777 trip, too.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 61):
Indeed. The seat cushion on-board the 777X is rumored to be 17.4" which is basically the same as the 17.5" seats on the 744. I don't think anyone will notice the difference.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 61):
Relax. As said in my above post, you'll probably not notice any difference because seat width will be about the same.

  

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 58):
This forum has criticized time and again the 10-seat abreast in Y class on AF, EK, etc... Sadly, it looks like this will be the new norm....

See above quotes from KarelXWB. Claims against ten abreast on the 777 on this forum, tend to be greatly over-exaggerated. I did two nearly 14 hour flights on the 77W, and I never had any issues. Airline configuration does make a difference, so I can't say that ten abreast on an AF/KL 77W may not be kind of uncomfortable, but on the Emirates birds I flew it was quite comfortable with their generous seat pitch. I'd have absolutely zero issues flying the 777 again.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 29):
I am quite please to finally see the 777 at LH. LH Cargo makes the beginning and then the new 777 will join LH.

  

Quoting ap305 (Reply 30):
I suspect the response will be a all new, all cfrp twin rather than a a350 stretch but this may also cannibalize the a388.

Do you really think Airbus would have the resources to pull off such a venture, with three models of the A350 on offer, the A320neo series, and the A380 which isn't exactly recovering ROI costs???

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
The source of these pictures is http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/the....html

This is quite beautiful. Not sure if this 77X render is directly from Boeing (in terms of the model) but it's interesting to note one thing. There's been lots of talk about the 3L/3R overwing exit, currently found on the 77W. I think Boeing, themselves, stated just a few months back that the overwing exit would be deleted all together, and so there would only be four exits per side as found on the 777-200 models. Now, looking at this CGI, not only are the overwing exits still present, but they're pushed aft of the wings. So I guess my question to anyone knowing would be... will the five exit doors per side be retained, after all, or is this still up in the air??

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 63):
I personally find this one of the most exciting order announcements of the past few years

   Agreed! So exciting to finally see an order such as this. I am definitely more biased towards the 777, but congrats to Airbus and the A350, as well.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 67):
Also, we are surely witnessing the end of the VLA era, with one of the long-standing champions of VLAs past and present clearly moving its focus towards large widebody twins.

So, you wouldn't regard an aircraft as big as the 777-9—larger with more capacity than the Classic 747s—to be a VLA??? Why, because it doesn't have four engines and/or twin decks??

Quoting na (Reply 85):
What drawbacks? A new A380 version by 2025 with new engines will set it right again I am sure and it´ll offer significantly better efficiency again to justify its existence.

A lot of people like you seem to completely dismiss the idea that Boeing could finally decide to counter the A380, with their own time appropriate VLA double-decker. I agree with Boeing's decision to not initially compete with the A380, but for so many that seems to mean Boeing can never and will never compete with it. Boeing could very well have more resources on hand to effectively and warrant competing with their answer to the A380, come 2025. In that case, the A380 could very well be doomed unless it is steeply discounted or somehow the Boeing VLA wasn't much better economically.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 88):

Why didn't they just stick to the A350? They could have gotten the A350-1000 instead of the 779X? couldn't they? Why was the 779X considered a better choice? after all it is a 20 year old design.

Wow! And you're a paying member of A.net? This seems like something I'd read from some of the FSX gamers on the A.net Facebook page. There is a lot of ignorance involved with this statement. There's no other way to put it. "A 20 year old design"??? Looks doesn't translate to features/capabilities. Just like the 737NG is vastly different to the Classic 737s ... just like the 747-8 is vastly different to the Classics 747s ... the 777X will be vastly different from the current 777. New engines, new wings, new interior, new flightdeck, new vertical stabilizer... what are you talking about??? The plane will be tremendously different than todays 777 despite having a similar appearance.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 95):
The 777-9 is larger than the A350-1000 and the 777-9 is not your father's 777.

  

Quoting waly777 (Reply 120):
At this rate, there could very well be up to 100 firm orders for the 777x by the end of the year considering it's still a few months away from being formally launched.....hopefully changing the views of its rather verbal anet antagonists.

  

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 123):
This is the first I have noticed chevrons on the GE9x.


They have been there from the very first computer rendering. It was one of the most notable features, IMO.

[Edited 2013-09-19 08:41:21]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-09-19 08:41:09 and read 26273 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 137):
Wow! And you're a paying member of A.net?

I think has was being sarcastic with these comments.  .

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 08:42:01 and read 26344 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 128):
I missed that news. Very interesting. Can you post the article or was it in the presser?

It was said during the press conference today.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 123):
This is the first I have noticed chevrons on the GE9x.

Than you have missed this official Boeing render:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2viqsg0.jpg

Source http://boeing.mediaroom.com/

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: flyingclrs727
Posted 2013-09-19 08:45:18 and read 26181 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 88):
Why didn't they just stick to the A350? They could have gotten the A350-1000 instead of the 779X? couldn't they? Why was the 779X considered a better choice? after all it is a 20 year old design.

Probably due to being able to convert 20 options on 748I's to orders for 779X's.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: finn350
Posted 2013-09-19 08:45:28 and read 26205 times.

Quoting waly777 (Reply 120):
At this rate, there could very well be up to 100 firm orders for the 777x by the end of the year considering it's still a few months away from being formally launched.....hopefully changing the views of its rather verbal anet antagonists.

At this rate, there will be at least 200 firm orders for the 777x by the end of the year. Remember, when Emirates places its order, it most likely is for at least 100 frames. The 777x may end up being fastest selling widebody ever.

Anyway, great day for Lufthansa, Airbus and Boeing.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 08:56:44 and read 25840 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 133):
I was quoting Carsten Spohr - head manager of LH passage - at the press conference. He is one of the few persons who definitely knows that for sure  

I just found the 40% quote in an article:

“The 787-9 is too small for our requirements and the 787-10 does not have the necessary range for around 40% of the destinations,” says Carsten Spohr, CEO of the passenger airline division.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....p0-618412.xml#.UjrxeFjcRQ4.twitter

I had no idea their A340s were being pushed that far. I suspect the 40% has to do with the A346 as there are a lot of those routes that would push the 787-10 beyond its capability but I will re-check my info. MUC-NRT, PEK, PVG, HKG, SFO, LAX, GRU are all A346 routes and YVR is an A330 last time I checked. I really have a hard time finding any A343 routes that are over 4,000nm. Again, I imagine he is talking about A346 routes as he mentioned that some A359s will replace A346.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 137):
They have been there from the very first computer rendering.

This was the first rendering I remember seeing and I don't see them on there:
Boeing Shows First 777-9X Rendering (by KarelXWB Feb 13 2013 in Civil Aviation)

I must have missed it.

tortugamon

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: IslandRob
Posted 2013-09-19 09:01:57 and read 25602 times.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 15):
Congratulations to LH, B and A. I love mixed orders - less internet traffic for useless comments and less work for the moderators...

I am *convinced* this consideration factored heavily into the decision! Lufthansa has done the internet a huge favor.

Seriously, though, congratulations to Lufthansa, Boeing and Airbus. The magnitude (34) of the 777-9 order caught me by surprise. -ir

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-09-19 09:13:36 and read 25260 times.

Its says something when Luftansa is the airline that orders the 777-9X first. Emirates, Qatar or JAL would have been n first customers. Its great to see the A350 is not the only solution for LH's long haul needs, for something smaller then an A380 but bigger then a A350-1000.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: gegarrenton
Posted 2013-09-19 09:14:31 and read 25131 times.

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 143):

I am *convinced* this consideration factored heavily into the decision! Lufthansa has done the internet a huge favor.

Ha! 

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Scipio
Posted 2013-09-19 09:18:58 and read 24963 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 87):
the THOUSANDS of A350s / 787s / 777Xs flying off the shelves within the span of a few months.

It is hard to have a reasonable debate with someone who comes up with one grotesque exaggeration after another...

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 87):
Let's talk again when DL, AA, UA and AC order two dozen A380s each within a week.

When was it that DL, AA, UA, and AC ordered two dozen B77W's each within a week?
By your standards, the 77W must be an utter failure.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 87):
Which North American airline plans to introduce passenger VLAs?

You're changing the topic. Your point about continents opting against VLAs was not limited to passenger VLAs.

Atlas has ordered, and operates, the B748. Fedex and UPS ordered the A380F when it was on offer.

Fact is, North American carriers have a relatively small share of intercontinental passenger traffic. They should not be expected to be the main customers for aircraft like the A380, B748i, B77W, and B779... The success or failure of these aircraft does not depend on North American customers.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-09-19 09:20:53 and read 24907 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
Indeed, that was just speculation by other people. No way Lufthansa would retire those 748s within 10 years after purchase.

LH, like a few others will need to keep some quads for routes like MEX where hot/high engine out issues limits it ability to carry a full load.

That is probably the useful role for the 748 going forward.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-19 09:39:58 and read 24415 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 142):
I had no idea their A340s were being pushed that far.

People forget that Germany isn't like the USA, the UK, etc., as they still produce things. Lots of things. So they often want to ship those things quickly, so LH would like an aircraft that can carry those things and people and bags long distances. The 787-10 is not that plane. The A35J may not be either. The 789, A359 and 777X are the planes that will do that. But the 789 is too small for LH in terms of passenger space.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: NeutronStar73
Posted 2013-09-19 09:48:43 and read 24023 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 130):
What is your point? Why are you mixing up two different disucssions?

I still maintain (as do several others) that the 787s problems (no need for the air quotes there, these are real and well documented) would very likely have featured in LH's deliberations; it would be naïve to expect that they would not be a factor at all, just as it would also be naive to expect LH to come out and just state it plainly, they are fairly tight-lipped about these things and are not AAB.

My point is that your overwhelmingly negative opinion/bias against the 787 clouds every remark you make about the program. You want to believe that the 787's problems figured into LH's decision, and their non-selection was a negative endorsement on the program. Proven wrong, as per LH's statement on the aircraft. (didn't meet requirements).

And they don't have to go all AAB on the plane, either, who is admittedly a way extreme and over the top. They could have said the same thing Delta said, i.e. "another opportunistic fleet transaction for Delta in which we acquire economically efficient, proven-technology aircraft." In other words, he applies that across any "new" aircraft Delta buys, Boeing or Airbus. (I know you kinda cherry-picked what he said to suit your needs, but whatever)

And LH, contrary to you claims, is completely opposite:

"These are problems which happen if you have a very innovative new generation of aircraft. You should expect something like this to happen. I am absolutely convinced (by) the time the first aircraft will be delivered to Lufthansa it will all be forgotten."

As far as Doric is concerned: don't care. They can buy or not, won't make a difference. Never heard of them until the A380 deal. They could be grey market, black market, 7-Eleven market....doesn't matter to me. As long as someone is buying jets and providing jobs to lots of people, Doric can be buying at the fish market for all I care.

But I fear the 4 engine passenger jet market is in serious trouble going forward, Boeing or Airbus. I'm afraid the well is about to run dry

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-09-19 09:50:40 and read 24017 times.

How was LH able to get 2016 delivery slots for the A359? I;m sure Airbus and LH were in talks when UA converted their order so did Airbus hold these slots for LH when UA converted their order to the A350-1000?

By the way congrats to both Airbus and Boeing.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: MIflyer12
Posted 2013-09-19 09:56:36 and read 23857 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 148):
People forget that Germany isn't like the USA, the UK, etc., as they still produce things. Lots of things.

Trade statistics don't really support that position. The U.S. is #2 in merchandise exports, after China. About 70% of German exports go to countries within Europe. 'Short range' widebodies would work just fine.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 10:09:05 and read 23539 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 150):
How was LH able to get 2016 delivery slots for the A359? I;m sure Airbus and LH were in talks when UA converted their order so did Airbus hold these slots for LH when UA converted their order to the A350-1000?

Kingfisher slots maybe.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 10:11:17 and read 23523 times.

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 149):
My point is that your overwhelmingly negative opinion/bias against the 787 clouds every remark you make about the program.

I am certainly a critic of how the 787 program has been handled and how it has performed, far worse than any new major aircraft introduction since the 80s. And realistic enough to know that it almost certainly WILL factor into any fleet and new aircraft order decisions, until such point the problems are definitely fixed.

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 149):
"These are problems which happen if you have a very innovative new generation of aircraft. You should expect something like this to happen. I am absolutely convinced (by) the time the first aircraft will be delivered to Lufthansa it will all be forgotten."

And this was referring to which aircraft? Couldn't be the 787, since they haven't ordered any.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: caribbean484
Posted 2013-09-19 10:24:43 and read 23082 times.

Never thought the day I would see LH buy another Boeing widebody again, but congrats to all involved. This is a nice choice for LH and Boeing getting them to be a launch customer.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 130):
I still maintain (as do several others) that the 787s problems (no need for the air quotes there, these are real and well documented) would very likely have featured in LH's deliberations; it would be naïve to expect that they would not be a factor at all, just as it would also be naive to expect LH to come out and just state it plainly, they are fairly tight-lipped about these things and are not AAB.

We all know the 787 has problems how much compared to past a/cs well we have to have the data to be convinced otherwise.

Well maybe you should tell that walking to BA, SQ, UA, Xiamen and the leasing companies who so far this year ordered 133 examples of all 787 family. Surely they have no confidence in the 787 so much so for BA and UA that they ordered the newest stretch variant and gave Boeing a solid year for 787 orders, but lets not get facts in the way shall we  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-19 10:30:17 and read 22875 times.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 151):
Trade statistics don't really support that position. The U.S. is #2 in merchandise exports, after China. About 70% of German exports go to countries within Europe. 'Short range' widebodies would work just fine.

But 30% go outside the EU. By ship and by plane mostly. Thus LH's strong cargo business.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 10:32:10 and read 22840 times.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 154):
Well maybe you should tell that walking to BA, SQ, UA, Xiamen and the leasing companies who so far this year ordered 133 examples of all 787 family. Surely they have no confidence in the 787 so much so for BA and UA that they ordered the newest stretch variant and gave Boeing a solid year for 787 orders, but lets not get facts in the way shall we

The 787 will be a game changer if it performs as promised. Airlines that are placing orders are doing so in the hope that Boeing will fix the issues by the time they put the aircraft into service. At the same time it is very possible that some other airlines are deferring or postponing making a decision on the 787 until they see how Boeing works through the problems. It is not an either-or. It depends on the individual airlines' assessment of risks and benefits.

So while we can certainly point to how many orders the 787 has received even after the grounding, what one cannot point to (but can only conjecture on) is how many orders it has NOT received (or perhaps lost to the A350) thanks to the issues. The DC10 too continued to receive orders even after it's issues got known, but those issues certainly resulted in the aircraft not selling as many as it could have if it weren't for its issues.

[Edited 2013-09-19 10:39:34]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 10:33:25 and read 22839 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 148):
LH would like an aircraft that can carry those things and people and bags long distances. The 787-10 is not that plane.

Well based on available information the 787-10 has an advantage carrying more things and heavier things further than the A359 up to around 4,500nm. This is not a question of range nor cargo its cargo at range and that is where the 787-10 seems to have fallen short.

Although my list of routes isn't exhaustive, it is relatively deep and the only A340-300 route I can find for next spring that is above 4,500nm is FRA-GIG. If anyone has a complete list, it would be great to take a closer look. Until then, I think LH looked at all destinations and not just the current A340-300 routes when they made their determination. It makes sense.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 151):
The U.S. is #2 in merchandise exports, after China.

Well #3 on that list is Germany with a significantly higher Export per capita than the US.

tortugamon

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-09-19 10:43:31 and read 22537 times.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 86):
Another grotesque exaggeration. Indeed, no operator from Antarctica has ordered A380s or B748s... And if you consider South America a separate continent, the same can be said of it for the time being. Operators from all other continents have ordered VLAs.

No North American, South American, or African (unless you count the French Air Austral) airline has ordered or has any plans to operate an A380.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 10:46:03 and read 22487 times.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 154):
Never thought the day I would see LH buy another Boeing widebody again

I don't get why so many seem surprised that LH ordered Boeing. LH has been a large and loyal Boeing customer for decades -- it was the launch airline for the 737 and for the 747-8i, and now for the 777X. It was also a large user of 707s, 727s, 747s, 744s, and DC10s.

With the coming of Airbus, it has tended to split its orders based on what best meets its needs. Therefore this order is entirely consistent with LH's past history.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: YYCSpotter
Posted 2013-09-19 10:46:22 and read 22458 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):

Seeing that they are trying to reduce the types of aircraft they operate, could the CS100/CS300 be ordered in the future for more than just LX? If so, I would love to see a CS1/CS3 in Lufthansa or Austrian colors. opinions?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-09-19 10:50:10 and read 22367 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 158):
North American, South American, or African (unless you count the French Air Austral) airline has ordered or has any plans to operate an A380.

If any African were to buy it it would be SAA. The day will come when a Brazilian airline will buy it because of booming business, but that could be 15 years away. GRU also needs to be expanded since few if any A380 fly there right now.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Boeing747_600
Posted 2013-09-19 10:52:45 and read 22263 times.

They'll have to make a whole mess of 744 pilots go through conversion training for the 779s or else hire expat pilots.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: NYC777
Posted 2013-09-19 10:54:28 and read 22252 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 5):
shame no more A380 orders too though

That's what the 779 is for.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Speedbored
Posted 2013-09-19 10:56:14 and read 22186 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 158):
No North American, South American, or African (unless you count the French Air Austral) airline has ordered ... an a380

Not quite true, both UPS and Fedex are North American, I believe. OK, they eventually cancelled their orders but that doesn't alter the fact that they did order them.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 158):
or has any plans to operate an A380.

I fail to see how you (or anyone else for that matter) can possibly know what every single American and African airline is planning to do with their fleets at the moment.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-09-19 11:06:55 and read 21875 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 135):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 132):I am of the opinion it's not a deal-breaking issue for them
I don't disagree. I have said it could well be a contributing factor to them not ordering the 787 at this point in time, given that one would expect what you write below.

Well, since no one here - including you - can know that, all we can do is sit and let you make those statements. Sort of like a drive-by.

Quoting finn350 (Reply 141):
At this rate, there will be at least 200 firm orders for the 777x by the end of the year. Remember, when Emirates places its order, it most likely is for at least 100 frames. The 777x may end up being fastest selling widebody ever.

I think you might be counting some chickens before they hatch.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 156):
The 787 will be a game changer

I thought it was you - but I'm likely wrong - that jumped on me once for using the term "game changer" in a 787 comment? If not, my apologies.

-Dave

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: finn350
Posted 2013-09-19 11:16:02 and read 21657 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 165):
I think you might be counting some chickens before they hatch.

Maybe, but Emirates Airline President Tim Clark expects Boeing to be able to get “a few hundred firm orders” for the proposed 777-8X/9X soon (based on a June 2013 interview).

Source: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....-xml/awx_06_04_2013_p0-584856.xml

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-09-19 11:17:18 and read 21619 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 165):
Well, since no one here - including you - can know that, all we can do is sit and let you make those statements. Sort of like a drive-by.

Not really. People express their views, conjectures, opinions, and people are free to agree or disagree and debate the viewpoints. That is the nature of these discussion groups. I would not view the expression of opinions and viewpoints, even if unpopular, to be analogous to drive-bys.

At the same time, there is certainly no room for misinformed slander or libel, like we saw in the Doric discussion.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 165):
I thought it was you - but I'm likely wrong - that jumped on me once for using the term "game changer" in a 787 comment? If not, my apologies.

Sorry, was not me. I certainly believe the 787 (and now the A350) are game-changers, if they deliver what is promised. I have no beef with the aircraft or with Boeing (and the 747 family remains my all-time favourite aircraft), but I am certainly a vocal critic of how the 787 program has been handled to date, and am not convinced its issues are behind it.

[Edited 2013-09-19 11:18:55]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-19 11:17:29 and read 21645 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 157):
Although my list of routes isn't exhaustive, it is relatively deep and the only A340-300 route I can find for next spring that is above 4,500nm is FRA-GIG. If anyone has a complete list, it would be great to take a closer look. Until then, I think LH looked at all destinations and not just the current A340-300 routes when they made their determination. It makes sense.

But they have the option of using aircraft from sizes between the A343 and A380 on those long routes. If they ordered the 78J over the A359, that option goes away. They are stuck on using the 779 as the smallest aircraft on any long route, or leaving cargo out of the equation.

This is why an airline like UA has BOTH on order. LH decided, so far, they don't want both. But maybe, in the future, the 787 will replace the A330s. Or an A330NEO, or the A350SR.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-09-19 11:58:20 and read 20651 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 95):
...and the 777-9 is not your father's 777.

   The best laugh I had on Anet in quite a while...almost rained a mouthful of Coke onto my keyboard and monitor.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-09-19 12:07:24 and read 20422 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 5):
Interesting, launch customer for 779 then, shame no more A380 orders too though

Can you point me to where they said that please?

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 137):
Boeing could very well have more resources on hand to effectively and warrant competing with their answer to the A380, come 2025

If you look at the current workloads, EVERY Airbus programme currently on hand will be complete by the time the 737MAX enters service, much less the 787-10 or the 777X.
I suspect you could well be wrong.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 148):
People forget that Germany isn't like the USA, the UK, etc., as they still produce things

If only the UK made aircraft wings, or engines (or even Nuclear Submarines ....   )

Rgds

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2013-09-19 12:10:58 and read 20279 times.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 146):
When was it that DL, AA, UA, and AC ordered two dozen B77W's each within a week?

Who was talking about the 77W? We are discussing VLAs vs. widebody twins in general.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 146):
Fedex and UPS ordered the A380F when it was on offer.

Seriously? That's your argument against the undisputed, overwhelming dominance of widebody twins?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 146):
Fact is, North American carriers have a relatively small share of intercontinental passenger traffic.

Why are we discussing your personal view of the importance of North American carriers all of a sudden? What does this have to do with the general viabiltiy of VLAs?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 146):
You're changing the topic.

Ah, I see what you did there. Very clever  
Quoting Scipio (Reply 146):
one grotesque exaggeration after another...

Well, I'll let history be the judge of that question. Let's see what the market has to say. IMHO it has spoken already. I'll reiterate what I said in my original post, which is actually connected to the topic of this thread:

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 67):
Also, we are surely witnessing the end of the VLA era, with one of the long-standing champions of VLAs past and present clearly moving its focus towards large widebody twins.

That is the cold, hard reality of the LH order and presented long-term fleet-planning that we have witnessed today. No amount of mincing words and circular logic will undo this.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Cross757
Posted 2013-09-19 12:18:07 and read 20057 times.

Any info on the proposed range of the 777-9?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 12:19:01 and read 20082 times.

Quoting Cross757 (Reply 172):
Any info on the proposed range of the 777-9?

I believe it is 8100nm.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-09-19 12:23:15 and read 20039 times.

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 84):

And it also might push Airbus a come up with a A380-900 with EIS 2020-2025

Which will not sell even as well as the A388. It is too big for all but a handful of airlines. And it will not offer a convincing economic edge.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 86):
Operators from all other continents have ordered VLAs

No passenger airline from either North or South America has ordered a VLA since the 1990's. And those were 744's.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-09-19 12:30:23 and read 19770 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 152):
Quoting jayunited (Reply 150):
How was LH able to get 2016 delivery slots for the A359? I;m sure Airbus and LH were in talks when UA converted their order so did Airbus hold these slots for LH when UA converted their order to the A350-1000?

Kingfisher slots maybe.

Don't tell all those A358 customers they will be waiting a little longer!!  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: The777Man
Posted 2013-09-19 12:55:23 and read 19127 times.

I'm very happy to see LH finally order the 777! I guess EK, QR and a few more will soon order the -9X as well. It looks like a great replacement for the -300/ER.

Now if only QF could order the 777-9X as well......They still have some 744s to replace so perhaps that might happen....

The777Man

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: glideslope
Posted 2013-09-19 13:07:43 and read 18946 times.

Quoting The777Man (Reply 176):
I'm very happy to see LH finally order the 777! I guess EK, QR and a few more will soon order the -9X as well. It looks like a great replacement for the -300/ER.

Now if only QF could order the 777-9X as well......They still have some 744s to replace so perhaps that might happen....

The777Man

Never say never with QF, but unlikely IMO. The 779 will be a money maker, IMO.   

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-19 13:13:04 and read 18800 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 170):
If only the UK made aircraft wings, or engines (or even Nuclear Submarines ....

Do LH put those in the belly of their aircraft?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: moo
Posted 2013-09-19 13:32:50 and read 18277 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 170):
If only the UK made aircraft wings, or engines (or even Nuclear Submarines ....   )

Hell, we still build *aircraft*, people seem to forget that  
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 178):
Do LH put those in the belly of their aircraft?

Engines and spare parts certainly do...

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: IslandRob
Posted 2013-09-19 13:52:59 and read 17683 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 170):
If only the UK made aircraft wings, or engines (or even Nuclear Submarines .... )

There, there... at least you have the Royal Family and One Direction to fall back on. -ir

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-09-19 13:56:22 and read 17559 times.

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 164):
I fail to see how you (or anyone else for that matter) can possibly know what every single American and African airline is planning to do with their fleets at the moment.

I could've said currently so I'll further clarify: The airlines that currently, and in the near future have the market or market potential for the A380 have ordered it, with the possible exception of Cathay Pacific. Twins are rapidly catching up in size to almost meet the A380, without the risk of having to fill an A380. There is something to be said about operations flexibility. I don't think the Chinese carriers are going to order more any time in the next ten years. China Southern can't fill the plane, it's not an efficient or capable short-haul aircraft and the Chinese are building airports and HSR like tomorrow can't come fast enough which will mitigate the need for large people movers. There isn't a dearth of availability. It is also arguable that some of the carriers who have it on order will never operate the plane. That's not a reflection of the aircraft's capabilities, but rather the needs of the airlines.

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 164):
Not quite true, both UPS and Fedex are North American, I believe. OK, they eventually cancelled their orders but that doesn't alter the fact that they did order them.

Fair enough. I wasn't considering freight and parcel movers as an airline but I'll concede that one.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 161):

If any African were to buy it it would be SAA.

I don't think so. They've been steadily down-guaging their aircraft even on their prime routes from 744s.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Scipio
Posted 2013-09-19 13:56:45 and read 17578 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 174):
No passenger airline from either North or South America has ordered a VLA since the 1990's. And those were 744's.

That is true, but it is not the point he was making. His point was that entire continents (in plural) were shunning VLAs altogether. And that is demonstrably false. North American cargo operators have ordered modern VLAs and, in the case of Atlas, are operating modern VLAs.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 171):
Who was talking about the 77W? We are discussing VLAs vs. widebody twins in general.

Since when is the 77W not a widebody twin?

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 171):
Seriously? That's your argument against the undisputed, overwhelming dominance of widebody twins?

I have no problem accepting that twins constitute the bulk of the widebody market. I have a problem with your view that there is no place left for VLAs.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 171):
Why are we discussing your personal view of the importance of North American carriers all of a sudden? What does this have to do with the general viabiltiy of VLAs?

I'm trying to explain to you that North American carriers are not essential to the success of any long-range widebody these days.

Most people would agree that the 77W is a successful long-range widebody. It did not need any North American carriers to become successful. As of today, Boeing lists 711 firm orders for the 77W on its website. Of these, only 35 (i.e., less than 5%) are orders from North American operators (20 for AA, and 15 for AC). These are verifiable facts...

North American carriers are mostly focused on their domestic markets. Their international operations are limited compared to those of carriers of other countries. The major intercontinental passenger carriers are found in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, and that is where airplanes like the A380 and 77W sell. Much of this is simply a result of geography: the Americas are far away from the rest of the world...

In short, your argument that success depends on large orders by North American carriers is simply invalid.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 171):
Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 67):
Also, we are surely witnessing the end of the VLA era, with one of the long-standing champions of VLAs past and present clearly moving its focus towards large widebody twins.

That is the cold, hard reality of the LH order and presented long-term fleet-planning that we have witnessed today. No amount of mincing words and circular logic will undo this.

Except that Lufthansa's order of today is meant to replace older aircraft of similar or smaller size, not Lufthansa's fleet of modern VLAs. On balance, the long-term trend toward larger aircraft remains in place at Lufthansa and at other airlines. As you may have noticed from some of the materials posted above, Lufthansa has every intention of having two modern VLAs in its fleet in 2025.

Interpreting today's order as signaling the end of the VLA era is just false logic (or, perhaps more accurately, wishful thinking).

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-19 14:05:44 and read 17412 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 163):
That's what the 779 is for.

But this order is for A340/744 replacement.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 182):
Except that Lufthansa's order of today is meant to replace older aircraft of similar or smaller size, not Lufthansa's fleet of modern VLAs. On balance, the long-term trend toward larger aircraft remains in place at Lufthansa and at other airlines. As you may have noticed from some of the materials posted above, Lufthansa has every intention of having two modern VLAs in its fleet in 2025.

   And Lufthansa is in the phase of adding another 9 A380s and 10 748s.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 182):
Interpreting today's order as signaling the end of the VLA era is just false logic (or, perhaps more accurately, wishful thinking).

I'm not sure what it is, but a lot of people went crazy today because Lufthansa will buy 779 aircraft. Suddenly the VLA market is dead again and the A350 will fail and Airbus will go bankrupt. I wonder where this craziness comes from  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: DUSint
Posted 2013-09-19 14:08:28 and read 17288 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 163):
Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 5):
shame no more A380 orders too though

That's what the 779 is for.

Well, that is not correct according to the LH graphic KarelXWB posted much earlier - this is really an interesting piece for some information mining and conclusion drawing:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
Lufthansa plans to phase out 13 oldest 747-400s and 17 A340-300s as it takes 777-9X and A350-900. Growth flexible between 1% and 5% annually.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: bobmuc
Posted 2013-09-19 14:16:48 and read 17053 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 181):
Twins are rapidly catching up in size to almost meet the A380, without the risk of having to fill an A380.

If twins are rapidly catching up in size, why is there no risk to fill, eg up to 450 seats, on these aircrafts?
Because there are less premium seats to fill?   

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 14:31:33 and read 16673 times.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 182):
North American cargo operators have ordered modern VLAs and, in the case of Atlas, are operating modern VLAs.

I thought Atlas is primarily operating them or wet leasing them to overseas companies/airlines. I think the point is that modern VLAs are not being based in the US. Its hard to argue against that. Certainly they are being operated to the US,.

tortugamon

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-09-19 14:31:36 and read 16686 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 183):
I'm not sure what it is, but a lot of people went crazy today because Lufthansa will buy 779 aircraft. Suddenly the VLA market is dead again and the A350 will fail and Airbus will go bankrupt. I wonder where this craziness comes from

What this order says to me (and it has proved true for many other airlines as well) is that the 787, A350, and 777 are all aircraft with their own niches, and few large airlines will end up without at least two of them, and they are likely to be from different manufacturers. I suggest there will be no all-Airbus or all-Boeing widebody fleets outside Japan soon, and Japan may succumb before long as well.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-09-19 14:37:03 and read 16557 times.

10 abreast 777-9X, ugh. The 9 abreast A350 will probably have slightly wider seats. I guess I will have to try to find an old UA 772 to FRA.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-09-19 14:44:57 and read 16292 times.

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 185):
If twins are rapidly catching up in size, why is there no risk to fill, eg up to 450 seats, on these aircrafts?

Emphasis on *almost*.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 14:53:07 and read 16116 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 187):
I suggest there will be no all-Airbus or all-Boeing widebody fleets outside Japan soon, and Japan may succumb before long as well.

The trend is clearly going that direction but I think the smaller airlines will still find a benefit of sticking with one OEM. HA and D7 come to mind. The benefit of having a one OEM fleet are shrinking and with the anti trust agreements after BA bought McD, OEMs have slightly less control as well. Airlines have to fit the right plane on the right route to make money meaning they have to be smarter than they were.

tortugamon

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Scipio
Posted 2013-09-19 15:10:03 and read 15715 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 186):
I think the point is that modern VLAs are not being based in the US. Its hard to argue against that. Certainly they are being operated to the US,.

Hard to argue with, for the time being, but that is a different and far more nuanced statement than the one I objected to:

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 81):
Whole continents have opted against ordering any of the current VLA generation.

Another statement that deserves some scrutiny:

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 67):
It seems more and more that "well-run airline" and "777 operator" are becoming synonymous.

Really? So the likes of Pakistan International and Air India have become "well-run airlines"?
Managers of some of these same "well-run airlines" suddenly become "prestige-seeking money-wasting incompetent political pawns" or something along those lines when they place orders for A380s...

With the exceptions of Qantas, Skymark, Hong Kong Airlines, Virgin Atlantic, and Kingfisher, all A380 clients are also B777 clients ...

[Edited 2013-09-19 15:14:01]

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-09-19 15:22:11 and read 15462 times.

Quoting EmiratesEK231 (Reply 137):
but on the Emirates birds I flew it was quite comfortable with their generous seat pitch. I'd have absolutely zero issues flying the 777 again.

But if you'd been jammed in between 2 large passengers on a 14 or 15 hour flight you would have been happier on a 9-abreast 777. And seat pitch is only relevant if you're tall. I would much prefer a BA 777 than an EK 777 regardless of the difference (which isn't much) in pitch.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2013-09-19 15:27:32 and read 15408 times.

hurrah; glad to see the 777 in LH passenger fleet at last. Hope to see 787 10 years from now  

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: EmiratesEK231
Posted 2013-09-19 15:28:57 and read 15372 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 156):
The 787 will be a game changer if it performs as promised. Airlines that are placing orders are doing so in the hope that Boeing will fix the issues by the time they put the aircraft into service.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 192):
But if you'd been jammed in between 2 large passengers on a 14 or 15 hour flight you would have been happier on a 9-abreast 777. And seat pitch is only relevant if you're tall. I would much prefer a BA 777 than an EK 777 regardless of the difference (which isn't much) in pitch.

I think you answered you own question. I can't imagine how many people would truthfully state they'd prefer a ten abreast 777 as opposed to a nine abreast. My comment was highlighting the gross exaggeration of how ten abreast is on a 777, based on comments posted by aviation enthusiasts. The experience isn't anywhere near as bad as some make it out to me. Read some of the opinions, flying ten abreast on a 777 is equivalent to a torcher chamber.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-09-19 15:38:55 and read 15207 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 167):
At the same time, there is certainly no room for misinformed slander or libel, like we saw in the Doric discussion.

Repeatedly implying that the 787 problems played a role in the LH decision - to me - is just fluff. Is it possible? Of course. Did they say so? No. So in the end, your opinion, while certainly welcome, implies more than you can possibly have knowledge of. How is that not "slander" to the 787 program? To me, it's little more than gratuitous bad-mouthing for the sake of saying so.

But you're welcome to continue, and I'm not implying that you can't or shouldn't.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 167):
I certainly believe the 787 (and now the A350) are game-changers, if they deliver what is promised. I have no beef with the aircraft or with Boeing (and the 747 family remains my all-time favourite aircraft), but I am certainly a vocal critic of how the 787 program has been handled to date, and am not convinced its issues are behind it.

You don't need to defend your preferences or lack thereof to me. I don't think they are anything any of us should have to explain every time we share an opinion about an airframe. Nonetheless, the history of the 787 to date would seem to play a very small role - if any - in a decision about receiving an airframe half a decade from now, imho.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 171):
Well, I'll let history be the judge of that question.

When one - or all combined - of these widebody programes sells THOUSANDS of airframes in a few months time, then you will have indeed been proven right. Until then.....

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 171):
Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 67):Also, we are surely witnessing the end of the VLA era, with one of the long-standing champions of VLAs past and present clearly moving its focus towards large widebody twins.

I think we are witnessing the beginning of the A380-900. I've always sort of pictured the aircraft market as a pyramid, with the bottom being narrowbody twins and the very top being the largest VLA's. You will always sell number of VLA's relative to other programs just by the nature of the business. Why this should be considered as a deathknell is odd to me. But then again, I don't expect to see the market for VLA's to ever be huge. It's a niche.

-Dave

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: kamboi
Posted 2013-09-19 16:27:17 and read 14493 times.

Has anyone noticed lately that most airlines ordering new aircraft are going with a mix of Boeing and Airbus? Why not one or the other? Trying to please both? Trying not to offend one or the other?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: queb
Posted 2013-09-19 16:36:59 and read 14378 times.

Quoting kamboi (Reply 196):
Trying to please both? Trying not to offend one or the other?

Trying to have the best price

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-09-19 16:47:00 and read 14244 times.

In the end, it all comes down to this: the new airplane order are intended to allow LH to finally phase out the following airliner models:

747-400
A340-300
A340-600

The 744 and A343 are starting to age and in need for replacement fairly soon. I would not be surprised that a primary base for A350XWB-900 (A359) operations is the new Berlin Brandenberg International Airport for long-distance point-to-point service from the German capital, intended especially for governmental traffic. The 777-9X (I personally think it will soon be called the 777-900ER) will be based out of FRA and MUC to as 744 and A346 replacements.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: queb
Posted 2013-09-19 16:51:33 and read 14201 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 198):
The 777-9X (I personally think it will soon be called the 777-900ER)

it will be called 777-9, like all others Boeing new aircraft (787, MAX, 747-8)

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-19 16:54:58 and read 14130 times.

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 180):
at least you have the Royal Family and One Direction to fall back on

Do they usually travel in the belly of the aircraft?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-09-19 17:07:39 and read 13984 times.

Quoting kamboi (Reply 196):

Has anyone noticed lately that most airlines ordering new aircraft are going with a mix of Boeing and Airbus? Why not one or the other? Trying to please both? Trying not to offend one or the other?

Sorry to see you only list negative reasons. Personally i expect it is because they understand the differences and explore it to run the most efficient operation they can.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Kengo
Posted 2013-09-19 17:39:49 and read 13586 times.

Congratulations to LH, Airbus and Boeing for making this order possible. As always, I tend to favor airlines with mixed fleets as this gives me the oppurtunities to try diffferent aircraft types in a single airline.

Next at bat is probably ANA and I hope they take the same path LH has taken with their widebody orders.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: carryon
Posted 2013-09-19 17:53:26 and read 13451 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 163):
That's what the 779 is for.

The order is not replace the A380 as it operates in a very difference

It's interesting to note the new door configuration, re-arranged to save weight and increase density in 3-4-3 configuration while still meeting evacuation requirements.

http://www.carry-on.com.au/blog/lufthansaorder777x/

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-09-19 18:02:37 and read 13241 times.

Quoting carryon (Reply 203):
It's interesting to note the new door configuration, re-arranged to save weight and increase density in 3-4-3 configuration while still meeting evacuation requirements.

http://www.carry-on.com.au/blog/luft...777x/

so how exactly does bunching 3 doors behind the wing do any of these things?

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-19 18:14:04 and read 13087 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 204):
so how exactly does bunching 3 doors behind the wing do any of these things?

One of the doors is not a full door. I wonder if they will be able to put rows of seats next to it like an over wing door or if they need to clear the rows like they do with others.


tortugamon

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-09-19 18:14:07 and read 13160 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 167):
...but I am certainly a vocal critic of how the 787 program has been handled to date, and am not convinced its issues are behind it.

At least Boeing seems to be taking the painful lessons the 787-8 gave them to heart on the 787-9 (and, by extension, the 787-10).

Jon Ostrower's WSJ article on the 787-8's first flight noted that Boeing designed around 70% of the 787-9 (similar to their design role on the 777 family) compared to about 40% of the 787-8. That has clearly paid dividends in terms of structural weight, with the first 787-9 2% below spec OEW versus the first 787-8 being 10% over. They also directly manufacture more of the 787-9's structure compared to the 787-8 and that has improved ship-set yields, helping Boeing close in on their 10 airframes per month production rate.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: kaitak744
Posted 2013-09-19 18:24:05 and read 13034 times.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 188):
10 abreast 777-9X, ugh. The 9 abreast A350 will probably have slightly wider seats. I guess I will have to try to find an old UA 772 to FRA.

The 777X will have thinner cabin walls, allowing for a 3-4-3 layout with the same seat width as the 747-400...... no issue there.

Quoting carryon (Reply 203):
It's interesting to note the new door configuration, re-arranged to save weight and increase density in 3-4-3 configuration while still meeting evacuation requirements.
Quoting trex8 (Reply 204):
so how exactly does bunching 3 doors behind the wing do any of these things?

The 777-9x is a 4 door airplane. The 5th door, which is the smaller door between door #5 and door #3 will only be activated if the airline chooses a high density configuration. (similar in concept to the optional extra exit on the 737-900ER, which is deactivated for low density configs.)

Most airlines will not use the extra exit, thus it will save weight.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-19 21:40:37 and read 11034 times.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 198):
I would not be surprised that a primary base for A350XWB-900 (A359) operations is the new Berlin Brandenberg

Maybe a few destinations but I am not convinced that LH will fly longhaul from BER at all and if they do it will likely be with an A330.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: seahawk
Posted 2013-09-19 22:17:12 and read 10637 times.

Considering that BER will probably already be running at max capacity in 2020 (or when it opens), I can not see many LH longhaul flights from there. Maybe they drop the 2-3 routes from DUS and transfer them to BER; but that will be A333 mostly.

Topic: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: cheeken
Posted 2013-09-19 22:54:56 and read 10215 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 67):

It seems more and more that "well-run airline" and "777 operator" are becoming synonymous. The recent LX 777 order was prophetic after all.

*coughairindiacough*

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-09-19 23:10:55 and read 10046 times.

Part 2 now available as this thread is rather long now. Please continue here:

Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2 (by wilco737 Sep 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks.

wilco737
  


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