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Topic: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-09-16 19:27:54 and read 7740 times.

Tokyo Governor Naoki Inose called for commercial airliners to be allowed to use the runway at the U.S. Yokota Air Base in Tokyo to handle the expected surge in international traffic prior to the 2020 Summer Olympics.

He made the proposal in commenting on reports that the government envisions building a fifth runway at Haneda airport in Tokyo Bay, which he said "would not make it in time for the Olympics," calling for a "change in mindset, rather than spending money."

Previously, Ishihara pledged to secure U.S. consent to make Yokota a joint military-civilian airport, but the U.S. government has continued to rejected proposals to allow civilian aircraft to use the 3,350-meter-long runway.

Story:
Push to let civilian airliners use Yokota air base
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201...-use-yokota-air-base/#.Uje88sYR-6Q


Personally I think opening the base would be a good move. Its well located to the West of Tokyo while Narita is to the East and HND in the center. A joint military-civilian airport concept is well known in Japan.

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Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2013-09-16 19:54:34 and read 7607 times.

The airbase continues to operate under the agreements in place between the U.S. and Japan. The question is whether the agreements are due to expire soon and if so, will Japan want to change the terms to allow for some kind of joint use?

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-16 20:17:16 and read 7523 times.

There are quite a few joint use airports who share runways; HNL to my knowledge is the largest operation with what was Hickam AFB now termed Joint-Base-Pearl Hickam. Yokota AB Japan receives quite a few C-5A and C-17 from Travis AFB, in California via Hickam HNL in both directions.

BNA shares runways with the Tennessee Air National Guard unit and PIE shares runways with the Coast Guard at Clearwater. I believe Newburg, NY is another.

I suspect one reason the military is not so keen on the idea is the massive secuiity undertaking with all of the world potentially landing on the base. I suppose they could implement something like what Howard AFB in Panama had. which was a three foot wide painted walkway on the tarmac to the support building. If you strayed from the walkway you risked being shot.
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Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: Jano
Posted 2013-09-16 20:31:02 and read 7458 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 2):
BNA shares runways with the Tennessee Air National Guard unit

I guess that's the case for TYS too. I see those KC135s flying over my house all the time.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: malaysia
Posted 2013-09-16 20:49:07 and read 7382 times.

I think TUS has more F-16 traffic than anything else

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-09-16 22:38:22 and read 7118 times.

I don't see the issue for the USAF...MSJ up the road is a joint-use airport (granted it only has a few flights a day to HND and ITM) and it works out just fine for both parties.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: phx787
Posted 2013-09-17 01:47:06 and read 6860 times.

The deal is the USAF owns the runway, technically. Japan ironically needs to get permission in order to operate from it.


I Hope this happens too, and a few friends of mine suggested that the MRJ have a second construction plant at Yokota as well.
I easily see Peach, FDA, and Starflyer having bases from Yokota..

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 5):
I don't see the issue for the USAF...MSJ up the road is a joint-use airport (granted it only has a few flights a day to HND and ITM) and it works out just fine for both parties.

The issue here is, MSJ is pretty much in the middle of nowhere but serves a decent sized population. There would be a problem to build a civil only airport there.

Since space in TYO is so limited, opening up Yokota does seem to be a good option.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-09-17 04:05:09 and read 6711 times.

Sounds a great sensible move to me, but I suspect a civilian terminal will need to be built on the opposite side of the airfield from the USAF base. Surely the Japanese and US authorities can came to some sort of agreement in the next few years.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: KFLLCFII
Posted 2013-09-17 04:53:03 and read 6612 times.

Shouldn't they have given this a little more consideration before deciding to submit the Olympic bid?

Now they have it, and suddenly it becomes the United States' problem.   

That's what happens when you gamble with the US Military...You might lose.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-09-17 05:07:21 and read 6576 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 2):
BNA shares runways with the Tennessee Air National Guard unit and PIE shares runways with the Coast Guard at Clearwater. I believe Newburg, NY is another.

You can add Fort Walton Beach in the Florida Panhandle. Shares with Elgin AFB

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2013-09-17 06:00:35 and read 6445 times.

The best way to add large number of slots in the Tokyo area: Bulldoze what little land the opposition have that remains to build the third runway at NRT.
The area is largely cleared or already have pavement/taxiways laid out. Add more terminal and ramp space around the airport.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: b727fa
Posted 2013-09-17 06:05:08 and read 6428 times.

How about we try this: Open HND back up and we'll let you use the AFB.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2013-09-17 06:25:03 and read 6386 times.

I forgot one thing Tokyo doesn't have much say about NRT since it is in Chiba-prefecture.
They can't complain about Atsugi Air Base because it is in Kanagawa-prefecture.
Maybe they can add some runway room at Chofu and start Tokyo City Airport like London City.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-09-17 07:03:23 and read 6298 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
"would not make it in time for the Olympics,"

While there is a increase in air passenger traffic for the three weeks or a month surrounding an Olympics Games - it is not a huge surge. Certainly not worth building new runways or airports.

Yokota is a possibility for the future - but it would take a major infrastructure project to add suitable transportation links to the airport. Though that hasn't stopped Japan in the past. They built Narita and in 1983 it took two changes of train and a 30 minute bus shuttle to get to the airport from Tokyo.

The northeast corner of the runway/ base would be the best place to add a terminal and new ramps - but that would require building over one of those little pockets of rice paddies and agricultural land that are protected in Japan.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):
The question is whether the agreements are due to expire soon

I don't think the agreements EVERY expire.

Additionally, the last time I looked, whenever any US forces buildings, structures, land, etc is turned over to Japanese usage - the Japanese government must build replacements at their cost on other US forces bases. It is not a cost free option for the Japanese national government.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-09-17 07:15:54 and read 6271 times.

Here's the answer: no.

The big problem comes from the fact to get back to central Tokyo from Yokota AB, you have to take a train that uses the Chuo Main Line--a line notorious for overcrowding during commute hours.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: covert
Posted 2013-09-17 11:42:07 and read 5060 times.

http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/...ublications/CNAS_Yokota_Cronin.pdf
http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/Yokota-Final.pdf

See the above links for studies that have been conducted on the matter.

Take note that this is being proposed by the government of Tokyo, and not the National government which is party to the security treaty with the United States that outlines the use of the facility. The central government has been relatively mum on the issue. For this to move forward, they would be the ones who need to initiate discussion and would have any final say on the matter.

In my opinion, Yokota would be far from ideal as a major civilian airport. It has a single runway, as is surrounded by urban sprawl. Another runway is likely not possible, especially in the sensitive climate of Japan where even rurally located Narita encountered heavy opposition.

You also do not have the infrastructure in place for commercial operations. Although the aerodrome is ICAO compliant, there needs to be a civilian terminal, parking and adequate transport links. If it is to be used for international flights, it needs customs, immigration and quarantine facilities built, for example. Being located in an urban area, how much of this is going to require existing buildings to be torn down? Who is going to pay for the project?

How much traffic would this airport be able to handle? Would the cost/benefit even make it worth it if the airport will only be able to handle a few thousand operations/5-10 million pax a year?

I think the best bet for them is to focus on improving transport links to the existing NRT/HND airports for those folks in Western Tokyo before they try to undertake such a daring project involving Yokota. HND can still be expanded with one more runway out in the sea. If NRT ever gets built out to spec with its crosswind runway, capacity problems will be solved for the mean time, while safety will be improved as well.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: pilot320
Posted 2013-09-17 11:56:32 and read 4983 times.

Better dump the U.S. military base out and build the brand new airport building with all the facilities.

I really don't understand why would anyone want to have a foreign military presence in it's own country.  

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: n515cr
Posted 2013-09-17 12:39:51 and read 4739 times.

Quoting b727fa (Reply 11):
How about we try this: Open HND back up and we'll let you use the AFB.

Exactly what I was thinking as I started reading the OP.

I wonder how long before someone at DL starts lobbying this angle...

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-09-17 12:50:39 and read 4669 times.

Maybe it can be open for charter only?

But honestly, why can't Osaka take up some of the slack? It's not that long of a train ride into central tokyo, considering how long the Narita commute is anyway.

Quoting pilot320 (Reply 16):
I really don't understand why would anyone want to have a foreign military presence in it's own country.

They had no choice. They started a little thing called WW2 in the Pacific, and had to disarm as a consequence.

Germany has the same problem, as does Italy.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-09-17 13:10:55 and read 4553 times.

Last night when I read this thread I decided to go look up the base on Google, I'm sort of lost as to why the US Airforce still has the need for this base, especially given its location and the fact that it appears to only be used by transport a/c and helicopters.

It does not appear to be a high security base or to phrase it differently, a high security missions, but as with all things, security is relative to the mission at hand and the rules and prodedures under which they must operate.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-09-17 15:10:20 and read 3972 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 2):
BNA shares runways with the Tennessee Air National Guard unit and PIE shares runways with the Coast Guard at Clearwater. I believe Newburg, NY is another.
Quoting Jano (Reply 3):
I guess that's the case for TYS too. I see those KC135s flying over my house all the time.
Quoting malaysia (Reply 4):

I think TUS has more F-16 traffic than anything else
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9):
You can add Fort Walton Beach in the Florida Panhandle. Shares with Elgin AFB

FWA has a huge 122nd Indiana Air National Guard A-10 presence, and it often sees KC-135s as well. The ANG probably uses FWA just as much, if not more, than the four pax airlines serving it.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-09-17 15:27:03 and read 3867 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 18):
They had no choice. They started a little thing called WW2 in the Pacific, and had to disarm as a consequence.

Germany has the same problem, as does Italy.

Well to be fair, Germany has some bases in the US, though they are pulling some out. Not counting Shepard AFB Texas where many NATO pilots train.
For another example Singapore has bases leased in the US (and France) as well.

There are major diplomatic agreements with all the countries involved that govern such things including for the US bases in Japan. Diplomats will sort it out, that is what they get paid to do.

Joint use airports are all over the world. from Albuquerque, New Mexico, to Trapani, Sicily and socres of points in between. Traffic Volume, location and military activities often play a role in what can be done by civilians at some locations.

Tokyo has 6+ years to figure it out.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: CAMPBELL
Posted 2013-09-17 15:27:24 and read 3868 times.

Charleston AFB shares the runways with Charleston IAP, SC. The controllers are FAA but the Air Base is the caretaker for the runways.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-17 17:10:40 and read 3444 times.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 10):
The best way to add large number of slots in the Tokyo area: Bulldoze what little land the opposition have that remains to build the third runway at NRT.

That's the best idea possible, really. There's like 3 houses left, and my friend who lives near NRT said one isn't even occupied. The Chiba government doesn't wanna touch it though because they're afraid of inciting protests....protests from who?! Most of the people who live near the airport (besides Airport workers) are aged greatly.

Quoting b727fa (Reply 11):
How about we try this: Open HND back up and we'll let you use the AFB.

What do you mean 'open HND back up?"

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 12):
Maybe they can add some runway room at Chofu and start Tokyo City Airport like London City.

That's also a good idea

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 14):
The big problem comes from the fact to get back to central Tokyo from Yokota AB, you have to take a train that uses the Chuo Main Line--a line notorious for overcrowding during commute hours.

Well in all honesty, it's not all that bad. There's plenty of headway in the schedule to send in an express train or two. The N'EX itself runs that way in the morning and evening (i believe 2 in the morning and one in the evening?)

Not to mention long-term plans have the 4-tracked section between Akihabara and Mitaka extended further to Tachikawa. Further on from Tachikawa, the amount of trains on the line (to Ome and to Takao) are lesser than through Mitaka, for example.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-09-17 17:32:24 and read 3319 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Tokyo Governor Naoki Inose called for commercial airliners to be allowed to use the runway at the U.S. Yokota Air Base in Tokyo to handle the expected surge in international traffic prior to the 2020 Summer Olympics.
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
calling for a "change in mindset, rather than spending money."

This may actually be a first for the International Olympic Committee IOC. A tasking by Tokyo Govenor Inose to actually save money.

Although it appears to be a time issue I've never heard of a host city being frugal with the IOC facilities construction budget.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-09-17 17:44:48 and read 3494 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 19):
I'm sort of lost as to why the US Airforce still has the need for this base, especially given its location and the fact that it appears to only be used by transport a/c and helicopters.

It is the 'hub' for the US military in the Far East.

It does not have an active combat mission/ role - mainly to avoid issues with the local nation sensitivities.

Yokota will be one of the very last overseas bases closed by the US military.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-09-17 17:57:52 and read 3427 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
It is not a cost free option for the Japanese national government.

Nor should it be.

Quoting pilot320 (Reply 16):
I really don't understand why would anyone want to have a foreign military presence in it's own country.

The US military is there to defend Japan.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-09-17 21:46:28 and read 3051 times.

Quoting pilot320 (Reply 16):
I really don't understand why would anyone want to have a foreign military presence in it's own country.  

Since WWII, Japan has had as part of its Constitution that its military does not go abroad. Their military, while well-equipped, is defensive only. As part of that, the US has maintained a base there since WWII for obvious reasons. The same is true in Germany.

Like it or not (and I do not), the US maintains military superiority throughout the world in part by "selling" its military services to other countries. This includes strategic missile defense systems and the like. Part of the reason nobody will invade, say, Australia is because they know that they'll be facing down an American battle group within 36 hours. And there aren't many countries that can take on even one American battle group. In exchange, we have military facilities in Australia.

As for the plan to use the base, as long as all passengers are screened and don't have access to the outside (the new terminal building will need jetramps), I don't see how security is an issue. A bigger issue is going to be the trains (on many levels).

It's a real problem because both of Tokyo's main airports are pretty much at capacity and there isn't much room for expansion. Some of the "best" solutions (and the sort of thing the Japanese might do), like building a new airport and connecting it to downtown by high-speed rail or building a runway on landfill in the Bay, will take too long.

It will make more sense to ask airlines to use their largest aircraft to existing airports during that time. Thank goodness the Japanese customs are very fast.

[Edited 2013-09-17 21:51:34]

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: cloudyapple
Posted 2013-09-17 22:06:03 and read 3009 times.

Airlines will be able to suddenly find extra aircraft to run many extra flights. Heathrow operated as normal during the London Olympics. Nothing special. The surge will be for VIP aircraft and people forget about them.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 10):
The best way to add large number of slots in the Tokyo area: Bulldoze what little land the opposition have that remains to build the third runway at NRT.
The area is largely cleared or already have pavement/taxiways laid out. Add more terminal and ramp space around the airport.

The crosswind runway will not add much capacity but lengthening/completing Runway B (16L/34R) will definitely help.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
While there is a increase in air passenger traffic for the three weeks or a month surrounding an Olympics Games - it is not a huge surge. Certainly not worth building new runways or airports.

It's not going to be a surge in terms of RPT movements (aircraft size may go up for some flights). However, there will be a huge influx of VIP jets that will come the week before, park there throughout and then all leave at once on the day/night of the closing ceremony. We have various little airports in the UK to handle them but for Tokyo Yokota is one good option to deal with them. Simply pour some concrete to the west of the runway for plenty of temporary parking away from the military hangars and it will be good for the Olympics. Just need some civilian ATC and flight procedures for the airport.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 14):
The big problem comes from the fact to get back to central Tokyo from Yokota AB, you have to take a train that uses the Chuo Main Line--a line notorious for overcrowding during commute hours.

If they are VIP aircraft then you will be running limos not trains.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: b727fa
Posted 2013-09-18 06:34:29 and read 2745 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Quoting b727fa (Reply 11):
How about we try this: Open HND back up and we'll let you use the AFB.

What do you mean 'open HND back up?"

Allow better access to HND for US carriers.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-09-18 06:35:04 and read 2752 times.

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 28):
a huge influx of VIP jets

The Tokyo area has several JASDF/ JMSDF military airports that could handle such traffic just as well as Yokota. Some with better facilities and even closer to the center of Tokyo.

Of course a question not answered - where will the primary Games venues be in the Tokyo Metro area, and where will the primary hotel areas be - which I assume will remain as the normal tourist areas. Location of such facilities in relation to airports might be important.

Yokota will serve one aircraft function that it has in the past - host diplomatic VIP aircraft. Similar to how SWF hosts such aircraft during the annual UN General Assembly meeting.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-18 17:53:24 and read 2466 times.

Quoting b727fa (Reply 29):
Allow better access to HND for US carriers.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Yeah I agree but I don't see it happening unless those airlines pony up money.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2013-09-19 06:29:38 and read 2242 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
I don't see it happening unless those airlines pony up money.

Unless it is for bribing officials, slot trading and slot selling is forbidden in Japan.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-09-19 07:16:06 and read 2227 times.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 32):
Unless it is for bribing officials, slot trading and slot selling is forbidden in Japan.

  

As secondary slot trading does not exist in Japan, there is no means to buy your way into an airport like LHR for example.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: Kengo
Posted 2013-09-19 18:47:17 and read 2041 times.

Another solution to meeting expected surge in traffic prior to the olympics is to use Ibaraki-prefecture's Ibaraki airport. It's farther north of Narita and farther to central Tokyo than Yokota but travel time by ground transportation should not be a major factor since the airport can be accessed through a major highway nearby. The airport has a single 2700m runway and is currently underused.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-20 01:33:49 and read 1915 times.

Quoting Kengo (Reply 34):
Another solution to meeting expected surge in traffic prior to the olympics is to use Ibaraki-prefecture's Ibaraki airport. It's farther north of Narita and farther to central Tokyo than Yokota but travel time by ground transportation should not be a major factor since the airport can be accessed through a major highway nearby. The airport has a single 2700m runway and is currently underused.

I honestly think that Ibaraki, if it wants to be a good airport for Tokyo ops, needs a train connection to Ueno or Tokyo that would be at a very reasonable speed. Perhaps reach Tokyo at the same amount of time as the N'EX does.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2013-09-20 04:33:13 and read 1855 times.

Quoting Kengo (Reply 34):
airport has a single 2700m runway and is currently underused.

There's actually two runways. Plus it shares it with the JASDF.
Probably not hard to expand the apron because it's in middle of farmland but getting to/from there is another task.
No, they aren't going to build any rail to this airport.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2013-09-20 04:43:58 and read 1835 times.

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 28):
The crosswind runway will not add much capacity but lengthening/completing Runway B (16L/34R) will definitely help.

How do you figure that?
With a three runway configuration, two runways can be used for departures and one for arrivals then vice versa for heavy arrival periods. Of course, they can mix it up with all three runway being utilized for any combination. They could add a good 25 to 50% more movements easily with this set up.
I'd certainly agree with you if the crosswind runway is only going to be used for certain wind conditions, but isn't that kind of wasteful.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-09-20 05:48:42 and read 1786 times.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 36):
No, they aren't going to build any rail to this airport.

Then I see it continuing to be rather underused. The majority of those going to Tokyo are not renting cars, so they're gonna rely on the trains or busses to get into downtown. Mostly trains.

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-09-20 11:24:54 and read 1693 times.

I wish the would use the acronym AFB for Air Force Base not AB as it is short for Alberta and I thought they wanted to fly to some podunk town in back water Alberta.

[Edited 2013-09-20 11:25:59]

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-09-20 13:36:57 and read 1611 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 39):
I wish the would use the acronym AFB for Air Force Base not AB

Well Yokota is not an AFB its an AB.

Even Air Force website says so...

http://www.yokota.af.mil/

Look at top right -- "Yokota AB"

Topic: RE: Tokyo Governor Wants Air Service From Yokota AB
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2013-09-20 14:19:12 and read 1553 times.

US Air Force bases outside of US territory drop the word "Force" so as to not scare the locals and what not LOL

sort of being serious, they really don't use the word "force" outside the US.


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