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Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: SR380
Posted 2013-09-20 08:16:29 and read 15604 times.

Hi all,

Sorry if this as already been discuss but I couldn't find anythings.

So I'm new to this web site and didn't know if you guys could answer this question.

LH order 6 B777-300ER on behalf of LX lately. While LX is operating a total of 15 A340-300, they clearly said that those new aircraft will replace the older A343. But how come LH group don't have any option for the other 9 frames? Does Swiss Int Airlines plan to finally replace the all 15 Airbuses with Boeing, or are they going to use the two different aircraft at the same time until the 9 others aircraft are replace by another type?

I like the fact that LX is moving carefully regarding the money they spend, especially since the all SR history but how come they don't order a bigger number of triple seven to open new routes in Americas, Africa and Asia?

Thanks All,

SR380

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: steman
Posted 2013-09-20 08:21:31 and read 15583 times.

It is probably a short term measure.
Swiss uses 6 A340-300 ex Air Canada (4) and ex Austrian (2) which were built in the second half of the 90s and delivered to Swiss in 2007. LX expressed the need for newer/bigger machines to operate some routes, notably the ZRH-GRU.
The other 9 A340s are all younger, having being delivered new to LX in 2003/2004
The B777-300ER will be delivered in 2016. By then LH will have probably decided on the replacement for the rest of the A340-300 for Swiss (A350 is the probable choice, the 777-9 being too big IMHO)

Ciao
Stefano

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: na
Posted 2013-09-20 08:31:41 and read 15438 times.

Steman is right.
Add to it that when they ordered the 6 77Ws LH probably already know there were going to order the 777X. Those 77Ws wont last very long in LX fleet, bet on it. I am sure that they´ll exchange them with 777X quickly.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: SR380
Posted 2013-09-20 08:39:14 and read 15350 times.

Thanks Stephano,

But why would they order A350 instead of 772 or other 773. Isn't to expensive to operate to many aircraft types?

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-20 08:40:38 and read 15333 times.

Swiss would not be the first airline who ordered 77Ws as interim solution, like BA did.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-09-20 09:00:02 and read 15146 times.

LH just finalized an A359 order for deliveries in 2016 (same as the 77W I believe). If that was the intended A343 replacement at LX why couldn't they have made a similar/smaller deal or piggy backed on LH's? The 777x makes more sense because they would have had to wait much longer and needed an interim solution and LH picked up a bunch of options that I really don't see them exercising if LX is not one of the beneficiaries.

edit: they are going 10-abreast in their 77W's as well.

tortugamon

[Edited 2013-09-20 09:00:36]

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: SR380
Posted 2013-09-20 09:10:25 and read 15031 times.

It might be. But still I don't see why they would operate two type of AC for such a small fleet.

Last time I checked they didn't decided what seat arrangement they want. But it's a logic choice as they wanted extra capacity. I don't see LX going with a 2-5-2. I have heard that they are planing to introduce a new F class suite on the 77W. Maybe a new Premium-economy too?

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: runway23
Posted 2013-09-20 09:13:55 and read 14988 times.

Quoting SR380 (Reply 6):
Last time I checked they didn't decided what seat arrangement they want. But it's a logic choice as they wanted extra capacity. I don't see LX going with a 2-5-2.

They are going 3-4-3. The rest is still to be confirmed.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-09-20 09:14:33 and read 14947 times.

Why only 6? LX probably doesn't have many routes where they need the size of the 77W. Look for the other A343's to be replaced by aircraft smaller than the 77W.

Quoting SR380 (Reply 3):
But why would they order A350 instead of 772 or other 773. Isn't to expensive to operate to many aircraft types?

If LX were a standalone carrier, yes. But they are not. they are part of the LH group and therefore whatever equipment they take will share some commonality with the rest of the group.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: SR380
Posted 2013-09-20 09:21:32 and read 14881 times.

Even if the LH group is already operating the 777 and soon the 350, it might be helpful for maintenance. But I don't see LX crew be train on LH or OS aircraft, especially cabin crew.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-09-20 09:27:41 and read 14815 times.

I dont believe the LX 77W are not an interim solution.

If you look at the LH corporate material from the 777X/350 order it clearly shows the 77W in the LX fleet in 2025, and also the count from another presentation to be 12.

What needs to be answered is more what happens at OS. Both the 763 and 772 are gone by 2025. Will they get A330 or A350s?

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: SR380
Posted 2013-09-20 09:36:15 and read 14701 times.

I don't see neither LX buying brand new aircraft as an interim solution. Did BA bought them or leased them?

OS might also go with 787 and 777 as they are already operating Boeing. Are you such they are going to retired them by 2025? They just got new cabins, which by the way are just great. Very classy

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-09-20 09:54:02 and read 14568 times.

Quoting na (Reply 2):
Those 77Ws wont last very long in LX fleet
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 4):
Swiss would not be the first airline who ordered 77Ws as interim solution, like BA did.

I'm not convinced they'll be disappearing all that soon, the evidence suggests Swiss are a litte more conservative that their trailblazing predecessors. They only got A333s for the first time quite recently. I suspect LH will be allowed to iron out the expensive and painful service introduction of the B777X with Swiss looking at any upgrade in the medium term. Stramge that what some on here see as "interim" is almost half the lifetime of some aircraft, say a SQ B772  

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: francoflier
Posted 2013-09-20 10:02:20 and read 14464 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):
H just finalized an A359 order for deliveries in 2016 (same as the 77W I believe). If that was the intended A343 replacement at LX why couldn't they have made a similar/smaller deal or piggy backed on LH's?

I think LH will make follow up orders of the A350, possibly for LX, just as they will follow up on more 777-9 (possibly some for LX to...). They are an influential enough customer to get convenient production slots.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-20 10:35:33 and read 14235 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 12):
I'm not convinced they'll be disappearing all that soon, the evidence suggests Swiss are a litte more conservative that their trailblazing predecessors. They only got A333s for the first time quite recently. I suspect LH will be allowed to iron out the expensive and painful service introduction of the B777X with Swiss looking at any upgrade in the medium term. Stramge that what some on here see as "interim" is almost half the lifetime of some aircraft, say a SQ B772  

Ten years is what I would call an interim solution. Especially for Lufthansa Group, who flies their aircraft for at least 20 years. Time will learn.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: SR380
Posted 2013-09-20 10:43:27 and read 14179 times.

An interim solution for LX would be what they have done with there used A343 from AC and OS. That's why I don't think they will order brand new 777 as an interim solution.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-09-20 10:43:51 and read 14179 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
Ten years is what I would call an interim solution. Especially for Lufthansa Group, who flies their aircraft for at least 20 years.

I'm not disagreeing, I am saying that what some airlines see as interim, others see as lifetime. We have no idea which Swiss will choose, if indeed Swiss is doing the choosing or whether anything has been decided yet.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-09-20 10:45:31 and read 14156 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 13):
I think LH will make follow up orders of the A350, possibly for LX, just as they will follow up on more 777-9 (possibly some for LX to...). They are an influential enough customer to get convenient production slots.

LH Group secured another 30 A350 and 34 779 options. I think they have a pretty clear view of the future.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-09-20 11:13:29 and read 13936 times.

Quoting SR380 (Thread starter):
Sorry if this as already been discuss but I couldn't find anythings.
Quoting SR380 (Thread starter):
LH order 6 B777-300ER on behalf of LX lately.

Yes, that was in March. Here are some previous threads talking of that order:

LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 1 (by FlyingAY Mar 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Boeing Confirms SWISS' 777 Order (by NYC777 May 23 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Swiss 773 Will Have 3-4-3 Seat Config...Bad Move? (by Gonzalo Jun 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2013-09-20 11:18:54]

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-09-20 13:13:59 and read 13402 times.

Quoting SR380 (Reply 11):
Did BA bought them or leased them?

BA's 777-300ER fleet is a mix of owned frames and leased frames (from GECAS).

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: laca773
Posted 2013-09-20 17:21:03 and read 11589 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
What needs to be answered is more what happens at OS. Both the 763 and 772 are gone by 2025. Will they get A330 or A350s?

Since OS is flying both 76W and 77Es, I wouldn't be surprised to see an order for several 789s for OS. They are a very unique carrier. They need longer range a/c but don't need a/c with lots of capacity compared to LH, and to a smaller extent, LX.

I wouldn't be surprised to see LX receive some A359s to replace some of their A330s. It will be interesting to see what they go with when it comes time to replace the relatively newer A343s which I wouldn't be surprised to see happen sooner than later due to them being quads.

FYI, the titles says "LX Order For Only 6 773" . LX will not be receiving 773s. They will be receiving 77Ws which are a large difference in a/c.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: motorhussy
Posted 2013-09-20 18:26:35 and read 10928 times.

So reading between the lines for the LH Group (LH, LX, OS) should we not expect a follow on order for: LX - 77W, remainder A343, and A333 replacement; OS - 77E, and 763 replacement, and; LH - A333 replacement?

The A35J and A359 look good to me for LX with replacing the 77W and A343 respectively but what about the A333? OS 77E fleet would be suitable for the A359 to replace but the 763? And LH's A333? I think the 78J looks food as A333 replacement and the 788 for the 763. There's Edelweiss' A330 fleet too.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-09-21 05:28:07 and read 5259 times.

SWISS has few routes where they need the increased capacity of the 77W over their A330 or A340's.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-09-21 06:30:42 and read 4646 times.

They may have only ordered 6 because they want to acquire something newer or they have specific missions in mind for their 773s.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: WAC
Posted 2013-09-21 06:35:51 and read 4592 times.

LH probably got the 777-w free or practically free with 777-x/9 order....i.e was part of the 777-9 deal

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2013-09-21 06:40:39 and read 4688 times.

Quoting steman (Reply 1):
The B777-300ER will be delivered in 2016. By then LH will have probably decided on the replacement for the rest of the A340-300 for Swiss (A350 is the probable choice, the 777-9 being too big IMHO)

Not sure that I agree that the 77Ws will be short lived at SWISS. And I'm sure LH would consider 777-8X for any new additions to their fleet.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-09-21 08:54:39 and read 3481 times.

Quoting WAC (Reply 24):
LH probably got the 777-w free or practically free with 777-x/9 order....i.e was part of the 777-9 deal

With Emirates, Qatar, ANA and who knows who else salivating at being the launch order for the 777X, Boeing likes having Lufthansa as a customer but is not desperate to have them. For the 748, it was another deal, they needed LH desperately.

77W are flying away as fast as they can be made thanks to Emirates, Cathay and Qatar. Whatever Swiss got was probably under the deal LH just announced but there is no way Boeing "gave them away", they didn't need to. The only people geting "free" from Boeing are 787 airlines, as we know no LH group airline flies the 787, not yet anyways.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: WAC
Posted 2013-09-21 09:08:25 and read 3471 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 26):
With Emirates, Qatar, ANA and who knows who else salivating at being the launch order for the 777X, Boeing likes having Lufthansa as a customer but is not desperate to have them. For the 748, it was another deal, they needed LH desperately.

77W are flying away as fast as they can be made thanks to Emirates, Cathay and Qatar. Whatever Swiss got was probably under the deal LH just announced but there is no way Boeing "gave them away", they didn't need to. The only people geting "free" from Boeing are 787 airlines, as we know no LH group airline flies the 787, not yet anyways.

Launch customers tend to have a discount or incentives no matter how popular the aircraft is....there is a substantial risk for being a launch customer due to teething or more than often unforeseen delays and costs...airlines use these as a bargaining chip.

Also selling some 777W to LH grüeven at a significant discount is a big win as it shows commitment from LH in 777 passenger program which so far they had not.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2013-09-21 09:36:39 and read 3395 times.

Quoting WAC (Reply 24):
LH probably got the 777-w free or practically free with 777-x/9 order....i.e was part of the 777-9 deal

Oh come on. The 6 frames for SWISS was a completely separate deal from the LH triple 7 order, and I have not seen any evidence that the two deals were directly or indirectly related to one another. It was a well known rumor among LH employees in the USA that CEO Franz wanted the 777s and was actively campaigning to order these aircraft.

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: WAC
Posted 2013-09-21 11:19:30 and read 3154 times.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 28):
Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 28):
It was a well known rumor among LH employees in the USA that CEO Franz wanted the 777s and was actively campaigning to order these aircraft.

Then goes the same to your statement:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 28):
I have not seen any evidence that the two deals were directly or indirectly related to one anothe


Also as a CEO if he wanted the 777s so he would use the barganining chip as the launch customer of 777-9/x as an incentive to get the 777s....
You did not read what I said...u read what you thought what I was saying

Topic: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-09-21 14:18:59 and read 2897 times.

Quoting WAC (Reply 24):
LH probably got the 777-w free or practically free with 777-x/9 order....i.e was part of the 777-9 deal...

The 777-300ER is far too popular for Boeing to give them away. You can be sure LX paid market price for their frames.

Topic: RE: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2013-09-21 15:27:15 and read 2757 times.

Quoting WAC (Reply 29):

Then goes the same to your statement:

My wife works for LH in their NY offices, so the info comes first hand. At an internal townhall meeting, Frantz himself suggested that they were close to a deal with Boeing, long before the official announcement of the order was made.

Quoting WAC (Reply 29):
Also as a CEO if he wanted the 777s so he would use the bargaining chip as the launch customer of 777-9/x as an incentive to get the 777s....
You did not read what I said...u read what you thought what I was saying

No, you implied that SWISS got their 77Ws at almost no profit to Boeing because of the new LH agreement to take the 777-9Xs. That's what I read from your statements. If you care to clarify, I'd be most grateful.

[Edited 2013-09-21 15:28:25]

Topic: RE: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-09-21 15:37:20 and read 2673 times.

Quoting WAC (Reply 27):
Launch customers tend to have a discount or incentives no matter how popular the aircraft is....there is a substantial risk for being a launch customer due to teething or more than often unforeseen delays and costs...airlines use these as a bargaining chip.

Also selling some 777W to LH grüeven at a significant discount is a big win as it shows commitment from LH in 777 passenger program which so far they had not.

WAC,

You missed my point entirely, Of course LH got a "Launch" customer discount and a volume discount. They did NOT get MORE. Why would Boeing sell their BMW M5 at a Volkswagon price. AS far as Swiss they got the same deal as LH got since it was all the same package even if Swiss was already anouned. But Boeing didn't need to move 6 77W's.

Topic: RE: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: columba
Posted 2013-09-22 00:29:08 and read 2217 times.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 25):
Not sure that I agree that the 77Ws will be short lived at SWISS.

I guess this one of the few things I disagree with you here. The 77Ws will not be short lived with Swiss. They will get their first 77Ws in 2016 same time LH will get their first A350s. If they would have wanted next generation aircraft they could have waited for the A350 as well. They wanted the 77W because it is bigger as the A350-900 and it is available earlier than the 777X.

Lufthansa is not known to order aircraft worth millions of Dollars, train personal, build an infrastructure and replace the aircraft five years later when the replacement is there. Sure the 77X will likely be much more efficient as the 77W but will the savings justify ordering a brand new aircraft ? Especially when the 77X will be one of the most expensive aircraft types on the market and only 4 years after you introduced the predecessor ?

I guess if LH/LX would have seen the 77W as an interim solution they would have leased the planes and would not have made that huge of an investement. LH did lease aircraft before although they usually buy their planes but they leased additional A300s and the Aero Logic 77Fs are leased as well at least the first one.

LH and LX are airlines that keep their aircraft for a long time and if LH can manage to fly A340-600s till 2020 when all the others have started to fly 77Ws, A350-900s, A350-1000s, 787-9s and probably -10s as well and fly their 747-400s for 25 years you can bet LH/LX will get their money worth of the 77Ws as well

Topic: RE: LX Order For Only 6 B77W's
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2013-09-22 07:10:39 and read 1724 times.

Columba my friend, that was my point. I do not think the 77Ws were an interim solution at LX, for exactly the reasons you cited. So we do agree!


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