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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-09 13:24:26 and read 86723 times.

Due to length part 6 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 7.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. Enjoy the forums!



Regards and thanks so much for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cjg225
Posted 2014-03-09 13:28:57 and read 86878 times.

Quoting SA7700 (Thread starter):
A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. Enjoy the forums!

Thanks.

Honestly, if there wasn't any speculation at all, we'd pretty much be able to sum everything we know about this situation in one sentence:

No one has heard from MH 370 in a long time.

Anything beyond that is basically speculation.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cipango
Posted 2014-03-09 13:35:39 and read 86768 times.

I did a quick recap for people that haven’t read through (partially or entirely) the other parts of this topic. Its very long at this stage (1,500+) so I will do another one for this part of the thread as some appreciated it in the last thread.

- Vietnam SAR teams spotted a floating object resembling an emergency exit door. This has become a huge target of the investigation and the major point mentioned today on the news stations.

- 2 passengers were travelling with stolen passports and have purchased a ticket simultaneously as their E-ticket numbers were only one digit apart. They were flying KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH and KUL-PEK-AMS-FRA.

- Agent in KUL that did not spot the stolen passport is being questioned/charged.

- The passengers who have had their passports stolen said they were taken in Thailand over the last two years and they were supposedly older passports with no chip - simply speculation that part.

- The passports have become one of the main targets of investigation at present. It may amount to nothing but many find it far too much of a coincidence that two passengers on the same flight were travelling on stolen passports, an had booked the flights consecutively.

- The agent in Thailand that sold the tickets is currently being questioned.

- One Russian was stopped in KUL for using a stolen passport and was not allowed to board.

- An oil slick has been spotted just off Vietnam but this has yet to be confined as a link to the flight. This seems to have disappeared from the news with our saying whether or whether not it was linked to MH 370.

- SAR had spotted some objects in the sea which could be "Yellow Lifejackets" but this was dismissed.

- The flight has supposedly gone down 40 mins into the flight rather than 2 hours in as previously reported. 2 hours is when Malaysia was informed of the plane going missing.

- The aircraft was involved in an incident last year where the wing tip was broken off. But many here have reiterated, then reiterated again, then again, that this should have no impact at all on the flight. The plan is made of many compartments all put together and this was fixed, then checked, then re-checked.

- Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, USA, Philippines (and maybe China) are currently helping in the search effort.

- The sea is only ~45-80m/148-260 ft deep where it has supposedly crashed.

This of course is not everything that has been discussed but I thought I would help some catch up rather than read through the 1500+ posts. Questions continue to be repeated 5-10 times as people are joining in without reading any of the previous posts, but sure it happens! Its a long thread to be fair...

[Edited 2014-03-09 14:07:48]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: jfritz
Posted 2014-03-09 13:36:48 and read 86529 times.

Have we ruled that picture of the door out yet?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-09 13:39:06 and read 86322 times.

It doesn't look like a door and I can't think what part (at least outer) of the 777 that it could be.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 13:41:12 and read 86120 times.

Given the length of the plane, and the depth of the water, a nose dive could impact the sea floor. Wouldn't that have an effect on the possible debris amount and field size?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: WALmsp
Posted 2014-03-09 13:42:06 and read 85851 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):

I did a quick recap for people that haven’t read through (partially or entirely) the other parts of this topic. Its very long at this stage (1,500+) so I will do another one for this part of the thread as some appreciated it in the last thread.

Thank you! That really helps those of us who have not been able to read all the previous posts!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-09 13:42:23 and read 85850 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 4):
It doesn't look like a door and I can't think what part (at least outer) of the 777 that it could be.

I think it was described as an inner panel of a door at least in some news, but the news regarding the potential debris is fast changing and apparently unreliable.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-09 13:42:25 and read 85875 times.

Reply 274 by Jetfuel: "Then that mean either A. Catastrophic instant failure or B. ACARS system disabled via interference"

In the link below there is a clip titled "Could plane have disintegrated?" where Richard Quest refers to ACARS and you can infer that the plane was equipped with ACARS and that nothing unusual was noted. If you page down, you will find this clip on the left.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/09/world/...ane/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: jfritz
Posted 2014-03-09 13:48:05 and read 85170 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 5):

Excellent point, it's possible the aircraft could have even impact the floor of the sea at a high rate of speed

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: jfritz
Posted 2014-03-09 13:50:55 and read 84923 times.

Am I wrong for moving away from the idea of breaking up in flight. There would be a wide debris field and perhaps something more conclusive from the airframe would have been discovered by now?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Redsand187
Posted 2014-03-09 13:53:28 and read 84759 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 5):
Given the length of the plane, and the depth of the water, a nose dive could impact the sea floor. Wouldn't that have an effect on the possible debris amount and field size?

I believe the gforce of the plane hitting the water at hundreds of miles per hour would likely be so high the plane would disintegrate on impact, and not go into the water like a dart. Also, while it's not 100% comparable, if you shoot a bullet into water it will only travel a few meters before it loses momentum. The drag of the water is so great that it likely wouldn't make it all the way to the bottom of the sea floor via force. It would probably make it halfway and then negative bouancy would pull it further down.

I would also suspect the debris field, while not huge in size would be huge in pieces as the plane would break into a million pieces. By now floating debris would be pretty far spread out by the current.

My guess is they are looking in t

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 13:53:31 and read 84746 times.

The supposed door was found in the water near the reported (still unconfirmed?) Oil slicks, 60 miles south of Tho Chu island.
Source: http://www.boston.com/news/world/asi.../TLZ5W65xU3mLsTVxD3lA5N/story.html

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2014-03-09 13:53:58 and read 84704 times.

Could that part be an interior window panel?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: B2707SST
Posted 2014-03-09 13:54:00 and read 84760 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):
I did a quick recap for people that haven’t read through (partially or entirely) the other parts of this topic. Its very long at this stage (1,500+) so I will do another one for this part of the thread as some appreciated it in the last thread.

Thank you for that excellent summary. There was also extensive discussion last thread about passports, Interpol verification, visa requirements, and other issues related to the two "mystery" passengers. Not much was concluded other than:

- Malaysia has among the world's most open entry policies, with relatively few nationalities requiring visas
- Thailand, especially Bangkok, is a major center for sale of forged/stolen identities
- The two tickets in question were sold by a somewhat "shady" travel agency
- While terrorism is an open area of investigation, other explanations for travelling on stolen passports include illegal immigration, drug smuggling, other criminal activity, spying/intelligence under non-official cover, etc. None of these can be ruled in or out at present.


Returning to the ACARS messages that were so crucial in AF447, comments on previous threads indicated that 9M-MRO did not have a SatCom antenna. A.net photos seem to confirm this - at least the usual pod antenna isn't visible on the fuselage crown:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephan Kruse
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yan David



Without SatCom, ACARS messages would be transmitted over VHF or HF radio. Can anyone shed light on what the range of those transmissions would be and who is monitoring the appropriate frequencies? Also, does ACARS on a 777 transmit only messages of an unusual nature (e.g. system faults), or are there periodic position or status updates that would be expected as a matter of course? I remember this was all discussed at great length on the AF447 threads, but that's been several years now.


-B2707SST

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: AS737MAX
Posted 2014-03-09 13:54:10 and read 84430 times.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 1):

Very well said both of you, there will always be debate on a.net.

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):
- Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, USA, Philippines (and maybe China) are currently helping in the search effort.

I believe that Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, USA, Philippines, China, Vietnam, Thailand, and Australia are searching or have aided the search with aircraft or ships

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: BSLFRA
Posted 2014-03-09 13:54:27 and read 84420 times.

To the people that have been asking about passport checking in Asia.
I had a quite intensive experience by a gate agent in Delhi boarding for a AI 774 aircraft to Frankfurt some years ago.
The agent asked me lots of questions where I studied, what I was doing in Germany and if I can speak German and so on. He put me also into little stress to see whether I stayed calm.
My background is Indian name with Indian looking skin but German passport because I have been born in Germany as second generation Indian. Now looking at the news of this troubles around passports I feel the Air India gate agent did a great job!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 345tas
Posted 2014-03-09 13:56:11 and read 84111 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 8):
In the link below there is a clip titled "Could plane have disintegrated?" where Richard Quest refers to ACARS and you can infer that the plane was equipped with ACARS and that nothing unusual was noted. If you page down, you will find this clip on the left.

I also understood from that that he didn't seem to believe the Malaysian military's report of their radar showing the plane making a turn before it disappeared, referring to it as "a rumour". I'm not sure if he knew definitively that the plane was equipped with ACARS, or was just assuming. Is he usually a knowledgable guy in these sorts of events?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-09 13:56:48 and read 84074 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 5):
Given the length of the plane, and the depth of the water, a nose dive could impact the sea floor. Wouldn't that have an effect on the possible debris amount and field size?
Quoting jfritz (Reply 9):
Excellent point, it's possible the aircraft could have even impact the floor of the sea at a high rate of speed
Quoting Redsand187 (Reply 11):
I believe the gforce of the plane hitting the water at hundreds of miles per hour would likely be so high the plane would disintegrate on impact, and not go into the water like a dart. Also, while it's not 100% comparable, if you shoot a bullet into water it will only travel a few meters before it loses momentum. The drag of the water is so great that it likely wouldn't make it all the way to the bottom of the sea floor via force. It would probably make it halfway and then negative bouancy would pull it further down.

I would also suspect the debris field, while not huge in size would be huge in pieces as the plane would break into a million pieces. By now floating debris would be pretty far spread out by the current.

My guess is they are looking in t

Could such an impact set off on a Richter magnitude scale ?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: DALFA
Posted 2014-03-09 13:59:48 and read 83747 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 18):

In the case of SR111 it actually did so the answer is yes.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 13:59:48 and read 83752 times.

Quoting Redsand187 (Reply 11):

Parts of AA77 penetrated over 300 feet into the Pentagon.

The front disintegrated on impact, but the rest drove well on in.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: JAL
Posted 2014-03-09 14:00:09 and read 83356 times.

My thoughts and prayers for those on board MH 370 and their families.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-09 14:02:05 and read 83366 times.

Quoting DALFA (Reply 19):
In the case of SR111 it actually did so the answer is yes.

Thanx

Hope someone is checking that out then ...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-09 14:02:57 and read 83028 times.

Quoting jfritz (Reply 9):
Excellent point, it's possible the aircraft could have even impact the floor of the sea at a high rate of speed

Could it? Water stops fast objects pretty quickly. Bullets are not lethal a few meters under water IIRC.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: awthompson
Posted 2014-03-09 14:05:15 and read 82732 times.

I know I have too much free time but I have read ALL posts from ALL parts right up to here over the weekend.
My fervour is driven by having just recently returned to the UK after a trip to the Philippines with a few days spent in Kuala Lumpur on the way home. My main carrier was of course Malaysia Airlines.

Into the bargain I took a photo while boarding one of my flights at KUL and guess what was taxiing past in the background but 9M-MRO !



My shock about what has happened has attracted my attention so much that it has kept me glued to my laptop, largely on airliners.net all weekend.

For those who feel they have missed something by not having had the time to read all the posts, do not worry. There is nothing factual in there that has not been on international news, and such facts are very limited indeed, you could list them in a few lines.

The earlier parts largely consist of repetition and hundreds of suggestions and theories, many of which would not be out of place in the film world. The subject matter is very similar to the wild speculation that followed the Air France 447 crash, when all along the chain of events behind the crash were of a less benign nature. I believe this could also be the case with MH370.

Despite MH370 being lost closer to land and in shallow seas, there is actually less factual information in circulation than there was after AF447. In the case of AF447 we had the string of ACARS data transmitted by the crashing F-GZCP indicating various systems failures triggered by temporary loss of airspeed data. We do not appear to have any abnormal data from MH370, or at least it is not in the public domain.

There is some discussion surrounding the suggestion that MH370 'may have' turned back towards KUL in its last moments. This has been hinted at by the authorities but nothing more than that.

Based on infra red satellite images, weather at the time along the route of MH370 was reported to have been fair with no significant cloud buildup or convection activity. No significant turbulence was reported by other aircraft. It was night time when MH370 was last in contact with ATC and there was no moon in the sky at the time.

There are as yet no validated reports from any witness that may have seen or heard anything significant relating to MH370.

About 60% of the posts are devoted to discussion surrounding the two persons allegedly on board MH370 with stolen passports. So save yourself the trouble of reading everything. Stolen passports will not bring down a plane unless the holders manage to bring on board a viable explosive device.

There is some quite technical discussion about the pros and cons of various types of radar and marine searching equipment that could be used to locate the lost plane underwater. If you have a particular interest in that, you may find some useful titbits. A couple of well versed posters with marine background/interest posted charts indicating that the Gulf of Thailand where the wreckage likely will be found is very shallow so we are not dealing with ocean depths like in the AF447 case.

I hope my comments help save time for some readers.

Can I pay tribute to billreid From Netherlands at reply 98 Part 6 for the post that sticks out most in my mind as being very human and level headed, and the one that shows the most feeling for relatives who have lost loved ones.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: ncfc99
Posted 2014-03-09 14:06:03 and read 85186 times.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 14):
Returning to the ACARS messages that were so crucial in AF447, comments on previous threads indicated that 9M-MRO did not have a SatCom antenna

I am also looking for definitive confirmation that there was no ACARS capability on this aircraft. In the previous thread it was stated that CNN and a Richard Quest had confirmed ACARS had sent messages of only routine nature, nothing like the AF447 messages.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: bastew
Posted 2014-03-09 14:07:10 and read 84865 times.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 13):
Could that part be an interior window panel?

That was my first thought also.

It's also interesting that some news reports are saying that the search area has been widened due to speculation that the last known location of the aircraft was wrong and suggesting the aircraft had turned back.....especially as this would suggest that a problem was known by the crew but not communicated.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: awthompson
Posted 2014-03-09 14:08:31 and read 87993 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 187):
After AF-447 and now MH-370 is there any plans by the manufacturers to introduce technology to have aircrafts automatically transmit short text messages on a continuous basis (let's say every minute) that contain location, altitude and speed to the Airline's base? In this modern age with so much technology available a plane should not just go missing.

This technology is already fitted to the vast majority of airliners flying today. It is called ADSB. Even better, it transmits the 'text' you describe every second and anyone with an ADSB receiver can receive and decipher the data. This is how certain flight tracking websites obtain their data.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Tristarsteve
Posted 2014-03-09 14:10:03 and read 87737 times.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 14):
Returning to the ACARS messages that were so crucial in AF447, comments on previous threads indicated that 9M-MRO did not have a SatCom antenna.

The Malaysian B777 have flat plate antenna, one on each side. They are raised above the skin by about 3/16in and can be seen on a good close up picture. These were very common a few years ago and are perfectly adequate for communication.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CPDC10-30
Posted 2014-03-09 14:10:25 and read 87549 times.

Quoting BSLFRA (Reply 16):
I had a quite intensive experience by a gate agent in Delhi boarding for a AI 774 aircraft to Frankfurt

Not surprising. The most intensive screening I've ever had was on AI YYZ-LHR having bought a one way ticket at short notice - and rightly so. I was put through multiple rounds of questioning, and my hand luggage was scanned twice and also inspected by hand. At YYZ AI uses a separate gate area for extra screening. I've seen the same thing at DEL on my flight to LHR on BA and also at KUL for flights to BLR.

However, without question, the security screening in India is MUCH more comprehensive than Malaysia. I guess it's only natural - Malaysia hasn't had many real threats to security in recent memory, Lahad Datu aside. Whereas India certainly has.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-09 14:11:17 and read 87536 times.

Quoting 345tas (Reply 17):
Is he usually a knowledgable guy in these sorts of events?

He is a very reliable reporter and I have seen him on CNN for years. He travels a lot and reports on travel, business, and aviation quite regularly. He also has another cockpit video where here flew with the copilot of MH 370. Here it is:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...est-malaysia-plane-search.cnn.html

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: bobbypsp
Posted 2014-03-09 14:11:26 and read 87323 times.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 13):

Exactly what I thought. But only one piece? Just bizarre. So much can float: something so simple as safety cards.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: ZKCIF
Posted 2014-03-09 14:11:50 and read 87702 times.

a quote from CNN:

The mysteries surrounding the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, and the true identities of some of its passengers, are as deep as the southeast Asian waters where multinational search teams are searching for the jet.

mr.Clancy and mr.Morgenstein have little understanding of the depth of these waters

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: B2707SST
Posted 2014-03-09 14:12:42 and read 87024 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 18):

Could such an impact set off on a Richter magnitude scale ?

That thought occurred to me as well this morning, so I checked earthquake sites for Malaysia, Thailand, and the USGS world summary. Unfortunately, none of them show earthquakes in that region below magnitude ~4, which is far larger than an airplane crash could create. Even in the case of United 93, a very violent crash into a well-monitored area, the 9/11 Commission called the seismic evidence "not definitive," so the odds of locating a crash site on land from seismic data are quite low. A crash into water (unless very, very shallow) probably would not create any seismic signal at all.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 14:14:51 and read 86397 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 23):
Could it? Water stops fast objects pretty quickly. Bullets are not lethal a few meters under water IIRC.

Yes, but that is many times the bullet's length as well.

It's an interesting question. How far would it travel through the water?

The water depth could have been much less than the fuselage length, depending on the exact spot.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 14:19:19 and read 85684 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 34):
It's an interesting question. How far would it travel through the water?

Depends on the impact speed and angle.
SR111 disintegrated on impact - but it hit almost inverted with 350g.
Other sea crashes have involved relatively shallow-angled descents to the sea floor.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: steex
Posted 2014-03-09 14:22:27 and read 84926 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 2):
- One Russian was stopped in KUL for using a stolen passport and was not allowed to board.

Excellent recap, but my understanding was the Russian was denied boarding because his legitimate passport had been stolen and he thus did not have one - not that he was caught with a stolen passport. I hadn't seen this to be proven otherwise, did I miss this?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-09 14:24:44 and read 84637 times.

In the current CNN main webpage article "The shift came at the request of the Malaysians, who are looking into possibilities the plane turned around and could have gone down in the Andaman Sea". This seems incredulous, if I'm reading the maps correctly, this means they think the plan flew back over Malaysia (apparently undetected by radar) and crashed in the Andaman Sea?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2014-03-09 14:25:08 and read 84388 times.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 24):
Into the bargain I took a photo while boarding one of my flights at KUL and guess what was taxiing past in the background but 9M-MRO !

Didn't you already post that photo in an earlier part of this thread? This thread is already long enough without repeating previous posts.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Condor24
Posted 2014-03-09 14:26:42 and read 83934 times.

I am amazed at how the media and bloggers refer to a crashed aircraft. Until any wreckage is found, the aircraft is one that has 'disappeared'. Due respect for those with family & friends on board this aircraft

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2014-03-09 14:27:05 and read 83785 times.

As it s stated in this thread summary that the gate agent was being questioned. I would think so...wouldn't it set off at least a flag for them when an obviously Asian looking guy (although I don't know this) shows up with fully blown Italian name and passport. Just asking....

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cipango
Posted 2014-03-09 14:27:51 and read 83762 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Didn't you already post that photo in an earlier part of this thread? This thread is already long enough without repeating previous posts.

The same picture was in a previous post, but I felt it was fitting for his post in this current thread.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-09 14:28:03 and read 83708 times.

It's almost daylight again. I wonder if they can continu searching with the planes again. I wonder how long it will take before the boats are at the unidentified object in the water.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: USAIRWAYS321
Posted 2014-03-09 14:28:16 and read 83835 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 37):
In the current CNN main webpage article "The shift came at the request of the Malaysians, who are looking into possibilities the plane turned around and could have gone down in the Andaman Sea". This seems incredulous, if I'm reading the maps correctly, this means they think the plan flew back over Malaysia (apparently undetected by radar) and crashed in the Andaman Sea?

That would indicate to me they have information that isn't being shared with the public.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-09 14:28:18 and read 83507 times.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 27):
This technology is already fitted to the vast majority of airliners flying today. It is called ADSB. Even better, it transmits the 'text' you describe every second and anyone with an ADSB receiver can receive and decipher the data. This is how certain flight tracking websites obtain their data.

Thanks for clarifying, this makes it more puzzling isn't it? 40 ships and 20+ aircraft should have found some signs of the aircraft at the last known position then based on the ADSB data. Is there a possibility of the ADSB failing and the aircraft flying for a significant distance after that? If, so, could the same failure that caused ADSB to fail also cause communications failure where the crew could not communicate to the outside world but could still fly the plane for some distance before crashing?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: queb
Posted 2014-03-09 14:30:22 and read 83025 times.

Quoting Condor24 (Reply 39):
I am amazed at how the media and bloggers refer to a crashed aircraft. Until any wreckage is found, the aircraft is one that has 'disappeared'. Due respect for those with family & friends on board this aircraft

What's your point ? Where is the aircraft if it's not a crash ???

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 14:31:06 and read 83206 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 37):

The Andaman Sea wouldn't make any sense. Hmm. (For those who don't know its the sea on the other side of the Malay peninsula from the Gulf of Thailand). This means the plane would, without any communication or detection , turn around and fly over the LAND of Thailand or Malaysia before crashing.

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 43):

That would indicate to me they have information that isn't being shared with the public.

Maybe. But this is such a huge detour and so far from intial investigation site that I think the media got it wrong and the thought is that the plane turned TOWARDS the Andaman Sea, thus widening the search area.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-09 14:31:08 and read 83197 times.

Because of the likely level of desintegration of the 777, together with the mysterious circumstances of the proper subjects, those fake Italian and Austrian passengers may become the hardest victims to identify in Aviation History.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Hywel
Posted 2014-03-09 14:32:43 and read 82984 times.

Just why the men posing as the Italian and Austrian would have used the false documents is still unclear. Terrorism is a possibility, but so is asylum: six Syrians hoping to seek refugee status in Sweden have been detained for over a month at Phuket's international airport after attempting to fly to Stockholm via Beijing on Greek passports. Local media outlet Phuketwan reported that the group said they had chosen to fly through Phuket and Beijing because other refugees had reached Sweden using the same flight path.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: md80fanatic
Posted 2014-03-09 14:33:32 and read 83013 times.

The NRO admitted they have no record of a "flash" anywhere during this flight's time in the air. They have admitted, since 9-11 they have the ability to do so globally. That was the first thread to be pulled in the search to eliminate a quick disintegration at cruise level. There really is no other way that plane could have gone to pieces flying at manufacturer specified airspeeds in the troposphere, period.

I can only think of one other event in human history where structural metals managed to transform into literal dust, and that was on 9-11. I am NOT liking where this sad and horrible event is going. If there aren't some rather large, easily identifiable pieces of this plane retrieved relatively soon, my guess is there never will be.  

[Edited 2014-03-09 14:36:10]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 14:33:47 and read 82786 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 47):
hardest victims to identify in Aviation History.

They identified everybody on SR111 - quite a feat. That said, they knew who they were looking for. So whether we figure out the "who" of those two might depend on facial recognition from airport footage.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 14:35:25 and read 82152 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 47):

They have them on video at the airport, so that should help.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Tod
Posted 2014-03-09 14:36:11 and read 82072 times.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 13):
Could that part be an interior window panel?

Nope - 777 sidewall panels are typically two windows at a time.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2014-03-09 14:36:41 and read 81761 times.

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 49):

The NRO admitted they have no record of a "flash" anywhere during this flight's time in the air. They have admitted, since 9-11 they have the ability to do so globally. That was the first thread to be pulled in the search to eliminate a quick disintegration at cruise level. There really is no other way that plane could have gone to pieces flying at manufacturer specified airspeeds in the troposphere, period.

I can only think of one other event in human history where structural metals managed to transform into literal dust, and that was on 9-11. I am NOT liking where this sad and horrible event is going. If there aren't some rather large, easily identifiable pieces of this plane retrieved relatively soon, my guess is they never will be.  

HUH? No but really....what?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: USAIRWAYS321
Posted 2014-03-09 14:37:00 and read 81816 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 46):
Maybe. But this is such a huge detour and so far from intial investigation site that I think the media got it wrong and the thought is that the plane turned TOWARDS the Andaman Sea, thus widening the search area.

Oh, I know it's a huge distance away and seems very unlikely - it's entirely possible that the media got confused. At the same time, whether this report is accurate or not, it seems like there has to be information they aren't telling us at this stage.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: rdu2sfo
Posted 2014-03-09 14:42:20 and read 80451 times.

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 54):
Oh, I know it's a huge distance away and seems very unlikely - it's entirely possible that the media got confused. At the same time, whether this report is accurate or not, it seems like there has to be information they aren't telling us at this stage.


Agreed - there has to be significant information at this stage that is not public. BUT it still makes no sense to search both sides of the peninsula. Either you know that plane flew over land or you don't.

Edit: "you" here means the authorities.

[Edited 2014-03-09 14:48:26]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-09 14:42:20 and read 80449 times.

Quoting Condor24 (Reply 39):
I am amazed at how the media and bloggers refer to a crashed aircraft. Until any wreckage is found, the aircraft is one that has 'disappeared'. Due respect for those with family & friends on board this aircraft

Definitely due respects for the family and friends of the passengers involved; but unless the aircraft is sitting in a remote jungle or on a remote mountain (like Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571) isn't a crashed aircraft (at sea) the most probable and strongest possibility? If the aircraft had come down over land certainly someone would have heard and seen something (we are talking about densly populated Asia here, not Siberia or the Saharan desert) and reported it to authorities in this age of cell phones & other forms of communication. If the aircraft had shown up/landed at any airport major or not within 7.5 hours (max range of fuel carried on MH 370 as reported) flying distance of KUL everyone would have known about it. But i agree, out of respect to the passengers and crew involved the media have to refer to it as missing till definitive evidence is found.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-09 14:51:45 and read 78767 times.

Quoting rdu2sfo (Reply 55):
Agreed - there has to be significant information at this stage that is not public. BUT it still makes no sense to search both sides of the peninsula. Either you know that plane flew over land or you don't.

I wonder too why the information regarding the military radar and the plane possibly turning back is so ambiguous. The authorities should know whether it turned back or not, unless the plane disintegrated in which case they should know the debris location pretty well.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: PHX787
Posted 2014-03-09 14:52:05 and read 78819 times.

Re: that part, I think we can all agree that's an overwing exit door.

If that is the case, we can hypothesize the airframe may have hit the water intact.

The proper amount of force can dislodge those exits. I think if it was an explosion, that exit would appear more charred and deformed.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-09 14:56:26 and read 77475 times.

Apparaently Interpol knew about stolen passports that two passengers used but no country checked the police agency's vast database on stolen documents beforehand
https://www.facebook.com/AirlineSafety

[Edited 2014-03-09 14:57:55]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-09 14:56:52 and read 77462 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 51):
They identified everybody on SR111 - quite a feat. That said, they knew who they were looking for. So whether we figure out the "who" of those two might depend on facial recognition from airport footage.
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 51):
They have them on video at the airport, so that should help.

But what a tough combination, isn't it?

Anyway, the real purpose of my comment was to emphasize, MAYBE relatives/friends close to those fellows DO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED", (if those people exist, obviously), as none relative or similar of theirs seems to have shown yet, and I honestly don't think they would remain silent because of only a "normal" case of illegal immigration.

(The possibility of those guys travelling WITHOUT ANY KNOWN PERSON who would miss them since the dissapearance date is also quite posible, but that wouldn't indicate good things either).

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-09 14:57:00 and read 77719 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
I think we can all agree that's an overwing exit door.

Which wing?  

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-09 14:57:06 and read 77656 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
Re: that part, I think we can all agree that's an overwing exit door.

As somebody pointed out earlier, Boeing 777-200 doesn't have overwing exit doors.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-09 14:57:56 and read 77530 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):

777 don't have over wing exit doors that are vastly different than main doors.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2014-03-09 14:58:02 and read 77108 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):

Re: that part, I think we can all agree that's an overwing exit door.

I don't think that plane as an overwing exit. So, no, I don't think I can agree.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: EVAAIRBR076
Posted 2014-03-09 15:01:55 and read 76703 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):

to me it doenst look like a exit door at all, more like a panel from the cabin, but i have a lot af doubt if it is a part of the plane. the 777 doenst have normal windows at the exit doors, just very small ones, almost half the size of a normal window.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: steve7e7
Posted 2014-03-09 15:03:43 and read 76255 times.

Whilst the various theories and speculation in these threads have been most entertaining and in many cases informative, I feel we have forgotten about the most important aspect of this tragedy.

Can we all please take a couple of minutes of our time to think about those on board, their families and the employees of MH who at this moment frankly don't really care about our musings on here?

As much as we would all love to know the causes behind MH307 I do feel we owe it to those directly affected to show them our respect.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-09 15:05:29 and read 75968 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 62):
As somebody pointed out earlier, Boeing 777-200 doesn't have overwing exit doors.

There seem to be overwing exit door, but it's a normal door, not the emergency "pull and throw out" door: http://www.plane-pictures.com/Boeing...oeing-777-300Er-03-256-picture.htm

Edit: oooppsss. that's a 773.... anyways, no small exits on 777

[Edited 2014-03-09 15:09:52]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2014-03-09 15:07:17 and read 75571 times.

This not a 773, but a 772

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Mal...laysia_Airlines_Boeing_777-200.php

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 15:07:35 and read 75260 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 67):

But that's a 300 not a 200.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: EVAAIRBR076
Posted 2014-03-09 15:08:42 and read 74873 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 67):

thats an 777-300, the 200 doesnt have that

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-09 15:09:13 and read 74994 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 67):
There seem to be overwing exit door, but it's a normal door, not the emergency "pull and throw out" door: http://www.plane-pictures.com/Boeing...e.htm

That is a 777-300. A 777-200 doesn't have an overwing exit.

http://img.planespotters.net/photo/2...77-200_PlanespottersNet_282532.jpg

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Daleaholic
Posted 2014-03-09 15:10:16 and read 74592 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 67):

That is a 777-300 sir. Different door layout.

The debris in the photo is definitely not a door.

Hope they find something soon so families can begin to grieve.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2014-03-09 15:16:15 and read 73217 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 67):
Quoting Finn350 (Reply 62):
As somebody pointed out earlier, Boeing 777-200 doesn't have overwing exit doors.

There seem to be overwing exit door, but it's a normal door, not the emergency "pull and throw out" door: http://www.plane-pictures.com/Boeing...oeing-777-300Er-03-256-picture.htm
Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 68):
Quoting s5daw (Reply 67):

But that's a 300 not a 200.

773 has 5 full-size doors per side including one over the wing. 772 has 4 full-size doors per side and none are over the wing.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: rampart
Posted 2014-03-09 15:19:49 and read 72870 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 37):

In the current CNN main webpage article "The shift came at the request of the Malaysians, who are looking into possibilities the plane turned around and could have gone down in the Andaman Sea". This seems incredulous, if I'm reading the maps correctly, this means they think the plan flew back over Malaysia (apparently undetected by radar) and crashed in the Andaman Sea?

I've tried my best to skim the threads as they appear, so apologies if this has been posed already. If a u-turn is observed, and searching may take place on the sea on the opposite side, is it not possible that the aircraft impacted into a remote mountain on the peninsula, on a relatively compact site?

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 33):
Even in the case of United 93, a very violent crash into a well-monitored area, the 9/11 Commission called the seismic evidence "not definitive," so the odds of locating a crash site on land from seismic data are quite low. A crash into water (unless very, very shallow) probably would not create any seismic signal at all.

I wonder if a land impact would be registered. Seismographs are probably common in the region.

-Rampart

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-09 15:22:03 and read 72633 times.

I read in an article in a newspaper here in Norway, that every Boeing Aircraft is fitted with a device that reports back to Boeing base, any abnormal flight movements ... Is this true ? If so, does Boeing know more than what is so far published ?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-09 15:23:05 and read 72116 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 40):
As it s stated in this thread summary that the gate agent was being questioned. I would think so...wouldn't it set off at least a flag for them when an obviously Asian looking guy (although I don't know this) shows up with fully blown Italian name and passport. Just asking....

Why, does certain names just belong to certain looks and types of people? Is every Mr/Mrs Hansen and Johansen blond with blue eyes?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2014-03-09 15:28:05 and read 71539 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 74):
I wonder if a land impact would be registered. Seismographs are probably common in the region.

Geologist here. Even if they tend to be common, the geology of the basement rock in this area makes attenuation difficult, so the waves don't travel very far at all. The seismometer would have to be VERY close to register a tiny (seismically speaking) event, let alone having 3 in "earshot" to triangulate the event.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-09 15:28:39 and read 70946 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 74):
I've tried my best to skim the threads as they appear, so apologies if this has been posed already. If a u-turn is observed, and searching may take place on the sea on the opposite side, is it not possible that the aircraft impacted into a remote mountain on the peninsula, on a relatively compact site?

I think this theory emerged briefly a couple of hundred posts ago... if something like that happened it raises the obvious questions why the crew didn't send a distress signal and why the Malesian military radars didn't notice an incoming aircraft without a transponder.

If the debris is not soon found, I suppose we have to start to looking at these kind of theories.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-09 15:28:52 and read 70856 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 35):
Depends on the impact speed and angle.

Had the ET 767 that was forced to "land" in the water been more level, would it have remained more intact ? And what about the drag effect in the water by these huge engines that are powering a 777 if it were to get in the water like what happened in the Comoros ?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Aesma
Posted 2014-03-09 15:29:37 and read 70965 times.

For AF447 it took 36 hours before locating the floating debris, that included the horizontal stabilizer. Do we know if a 777 tail would float similarly if in one piece ?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-09 15:29:38 and read 70954 times.

What really surprises me is that dozens of planes, helicopters and ships are unable to find anything after now almost three days. I mean we are not looking at an area of the size of the Pacific Ocean and in another forum someone involved in the Lockerbie investigation mentioned that that flight left a 70km trail of debris. Admittedly over land and not over water, but we cannot really say that we are looking for a needle in a haystack here.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-09 15:30:54 and read 70458 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 74):
If a u-turn is observed, and searching may take place on the sea on the opposite side, is it not possible that the aircraft impacted into a remote mountain on the peninsula, on a relatively compact site?

Wouldn't that make it much more likely for someone to pick ELT signal by now?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-09 15:31:21 and read 70503 times.

Quoting steve7e7 (Reply 66):
Can we all please take a couple of minutes of our time to think about those on board, their families and the employees of MH who at this moment frankly don't really care about our musings on here?

I'm pretty sure we all are. I'm pretty sure that's why there are now 7 threads on where this plane is. The sooner this plane is found, the quicker we can find out what happened to those people who were on it. That's the whole point.

I really doubt anything we say is going to make a difference one way or another (to the media, to passengers' families or to any investigation) but it's obvious to me that we are all thinking about the passengers and their families - that's why we're here.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 56):
but unless the aircraft is sitting in a remote jungle or on a remote mountain (like Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571) isn't a crashed aircraft (at sea) the most probable and strongest possibility?

It's the most probable, yes, but we may as well consider all possibilities. I mean if you're going to have a thread that's largely based on speculation anyway (and as reply #1 says, what we *know* about this incident could be summed up in one sentence), I don't see the reason in shutting out any possibility without at least going through the logical steps until you can rule it out. That's a large part of what our discussion's doing.

So far, I haven't seen anything that would rule out this plane having been hijacked, with or without inside help, and brought safely to some remote location. It's unlikely, but a crash is unlikely too - planes don't just fall out of the sky. So whatever happened is going to be pretty unlikely - that's the one thing we know for sure. We're just dealing with different degrees of unlikeliness. There has to be some actual evidence one way or another.

I'm personally a bit confused about this possible debris everyone periodically talks about - it seems like for about the last 12 hours I've been reading about debris being spotted, then denied, over and over. Is there actual possible debris out there now that still needs to be checked, or is this the same debris from earlier that authorities have already said was a red herring?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-09 15:31:54 and read 70424 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 81):
What really surprises me is that dozens of planes, helicopters and ships are unable to find anything after now almost three days. I mean we are not looking at an area of the size of the Pacific Ocean and in another forum someone involved in the Lockerbie investigation mentioned that that flight left a 70km trail of debris. Admittedly over land and not over water, but we cannot really say that we are looking for a needle in a haystack here.

Unless, they are looking i the wrong place completely ...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-09 15:32:27 and read 70036 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
Do we know if a 777 tail would float similarly if in one piece ?

From what I have read a few hundreds replies earlier, I believe it would float.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-09 15:32:38 and read 70123 times.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 13):
Could that part be an interior window panel?

Doubtful, because 777 window panels cover two windows each. So it would have to have broken in two, but the edges look too regular for that. It doesn't look like it could be a panel covering the window in a door, as that's a very different shape.

-Mir

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-09 15:34:03 and read 70052 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
For AF447 it took 36 hours before locating the floating debris, that included the horizontal stabilizer. Do we know if a 777 tail would float similarly if in one piece ?

I think somebody said A330 had carbon-fiber stabiliser, while 777 has aluminium. Aluminium would probably sink.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CF-CPI
Posted 2014-03-09 15:34:54 and read 69696 times.

Quoting rampart (Reply 74):
I wonder if a land impact would be registered. Seismographs are probably common in the region.

I wouldn't be surprised if defense-related sensors of some sort actually registered - or were capable of detecting - an impact or catastrophe of this nature, on land and/or sea. The issue that arises is agencies or governments revealing their capability, should such info become public.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 15:36:12 and read 69646 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
For AF447 it took 36 hours before locating the floating debris, that included the horizontal stabilizer. Do we know if a 777 tail would float similarly if in one piece ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447#Surface_search

"On 2 June at 15:20 (UTC), a Brazilian Air Force Embraer R-99A spotted wreckage and signs of oil, possibly jet fuel, strewn along a 5 km (3 mi) band 650 km (400 mi) north-east of Fernando de Noronha Island, near the Saint Peter and Saint Paul Archipelago. The sighted wreckage included an aircraft seat, an orange buoy, a barrel, and "white pieces and electrical conductors"."

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: PHX Flyer
Posted 2014-03-09 15:37:33 and read 69367 times.

Quoting Tod (Reply 52):

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 13):
Could that part be an interior window panel?

Nope - 777 sidewall panels are typically two windows at a time.

Except may be for the one adjacent to the R2 door (towards the front).


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David James Clelford [Airplane-Pictures]



However, I would find it hard to believe there would be only one part floating around more or less intact and nothing else. There should be a carpet of debris at the crash site.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: btblue
Posted 2014-03-09 15:38:44 and read 69072 times.

That image of the floating piece of debris. I've fiddled around with the image and it looks like a life buoy. I'll try upload it later but it looks rounder rather than a square when contrast is changed.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 15:39:30 and read 68882 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 82):
Wouldn't that make it much more likely for someone to pick ELT signal by now?

I wouldn't expect an ELT signal if the plane crashed in the water. The ELT is likely destroyed or under the water.

If it broke free and floated, maybe.

The acoustic pingers of the black boxes are what they would be listening for.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: steve7e7
Posted 2014-03-09 15:39:42 and read 68965 times.

I had a thought that the crew could have become hypoxic which would explain the lack of comms but the a/c would still have continued on autopilot until it was exhausted of fuel.

Other than that I fear the worst re inflight disintegration as a result of a terrorist act.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: woodentom
Posted 2014-03-09 15:40:05 and read 68826 times.

Reading all these posts is just like an episode of Sherlock

assuming the worst may all the passengers rest in peace.....

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-09 15:40:56 and read 68438 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 75):
I read in an article in a newspaper here in Norway, that every Boeing Aircraft is fitted with a device that reports back to Boeing base, any abnormal flight movements ... Is this true ? If so, does Boeing know more than what is so far published ?

I assume you mean ACARS?

See Reply 14 and 17 in this thread.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-09 15:41:20 and read 68702 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 83):
- planes don't just fall out of the sky.

Really? PanAm Lockerbie incident, AI 182, USAir & United 737s with the rudder problem, the Air New Zealand crash off France (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/9785004/Final-moments-of-Air-NZ-test-flight), AF 447, China Airllines 611 all seem to indicate otherwise (agreed the causes in these cases are different but the point is that they fell/dived from the sky).

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2014-03-09 15:41:45 and read 68532 times.

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 72):
The debris in the photo is definitely not a door.

What reply are you referring to with a photo of this debris?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-09 15:43:40 and read 68306 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 47):
those fake Italian and Austrian passengers may become the hardest victims to identify in Aviation History.

They have photos and video of them from the time they walked into the aiport until the time they boarded the flight. They are reviewing it to see who if anyone they had contact with. Ultimately, they should be identified. OTOH, it doesn't appear that the multiple foreign agents who were outed after assasinating someone in Dubai were ever identified, despite the fact that their entire time in Dubai was recorded on video and published by the Dubai police, including their passport photos and video stills. Although they doubtless had some makeup and such on, if you knew them, you would be able to identify them. And yet...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-09 15:44:46 and read 67707 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 92):
I wouldn't expect an ELT signal if the plane crashed in the water. The ELT is likely destroyed or under the water.

Was referring to possibility of crash on land in remote area rather than where they are searching. Problem of ELT under water is that water absorbs radio-waves.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-09 15:46:15 and read 67342 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 44):
Is there a possibility of the ADSB failing and the aircraft flying for a significant distance after that?

Yes, but even with the ADS-B and transpoders off, it would still be on ATC radar as a primary 'dot'. May be that's the info the Malaysian authorities have that we don't.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-09 15:46:26 and read 67506 times.

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 72):
The debris in the photo is definitely not a door.

The image is really not clear enough to make out what it is. At this point all we can say is that it is some sort of square with a hole in it (more like nut with the bolt missing).

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 15:47:10 and read 67692 times.

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 54):
it seems like there has to be information they aren't telling us at this stage.

Potentially - and there's a chance some of that will come out after the fact. Perhaps when they finally find the 200 foot long plane.
Until then, I propose a new theory: Wormhole.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 79):
Had the ET 767 that was forced to "land" in the water been more level, would it have remained more intact ?

That I cannot answer. There are certainly crash angles that allow for intact planes.
I wouldn't be too surprised that if this plane somehow entered the water in one piece that the engines would indeed break off - those are some HUGE fans.

Can someone post a pic of the "door" on the thread?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Tod
Posted 2014-03-09 15:49:06 and read 67198 times.

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 90):
Except may be for the one adjacent to the R2 door (towards the front).

Good thinking.
Aft of R2 is a lav so no sidewall there.
Maybe forward of the door.
I don't have access to the IPC or Boeing drawings tonight to check for single frame sized sidewall panels on this configuration.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Redsand187
Posted 2014-03-09 15:49:22 and read 67552 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 20):

As crazy as it may sound, 50ft of water probably has exponentially more stopping power then 300ft of pentagon. Remember, while the walls at the pentagon were likely extremely thick and reinforced, in total they probably only total 20ft in total thickness with a bunch of space and furniture in between. The stopping power of water is insane, it is very easy to underestimate.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 81):

Not a needle in a haystack, put thousands of pieces of a needle in a haystack. Sure you only have to find one piece, but they are even smaller then a full needle.

If the aircraft can't be found near where the radar last shows, I'd be suspicious that there is more going on then we know at this time, but has been purposely withheld from the public. Surely some sort of intelligence would have seen this plane even if the transponder was off and it flew for a hundred or more miles as is very possible. If it didn't fly a long ways, then it shouldn't be that difficult to locate some sort of piece of the aircraft, even if it's a piece of luggage or a bag of peanuts.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-09 15:51:51 and read 67118 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 79):
Had the ET 767 that was forced to "land" in the water been more level, would it have remained more intact ?

A distinct possibility. A DC9 managed it some years back. But in that situation, the pilot was not fighting for control of the plane at the very last moment.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-09 15:52:34 and read 66842 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 102):
Can someone post a pic of the "door" on the thread?

Here for example: https://twitter.com/TrongKhanhVu/status/442653199682383873

It seems to be a photo of a monitor showing very zoomed-in photo, the quality is really bad.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-09 15:54:20 and read 66144 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 95):
I assume you mean ACARS?

No, the article gave the impression that the system reported directly to Boeing of any abnormalities in flight behaviour ...

How the newspaper has concluded this way, I don't know ...

A quote from the newspaer ( in Norwegian )

•Ble Boeing varslet?
Overfor Dagbladet ønsker ikke Boeing å opplyse hva slags informasjon - om noe -flyet sendte fra seg før det forsvant. Etter hva Dagbladet erfarer sender alle Boeing-maskiner informasjon til Boeing-basen ved avvik fra det normale.


http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/03/09/n...sia/flyulykke/savnet_fly/32219665/

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2014-03-09 15:55:09 and read 66086 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 96):
Really? PanAm Lockerbie incident, AI 182, USAir & United 737s with the rudder problem, the Air New Zealand crash off France (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/9785004/Final-moments-of-Air-NZ-test-flight), AF 447, China Airllines 611 all seem to indicate otherwise (agreed the causes in these cases are different but the point is that they fell/dived from the sky).

But it is an extremely rare event, especially from cruise (the 737's were on landing approach). And I believe almost all jetliners except for AF447 that have done so were victims of either fire or a bomb.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: AS737MAX
Posted 2014-03-09 15:55:58 and read 65980 times.

Quoting danvs (Reply 100):

Exactly, there would have been a radar return regardless of turning the transponder off, until it crashed, or lost the "dot" if a bomb did explode

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 15:59:19 and read 65217 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 99):

Was referring to possibility of crash on land in remote area rather than where they are searching. Problem of ELT under water is that water absorbs radio-waves.

Is an ELT likely to survive a crash on land?

Or do you mean a survivable crash landing where a person would activate an ELT, or the G load activates it?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-09 16:00:11 and read 64941 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 96):
(agreed the causes in these cases are different but the point is that they fell/dived from the sky

No, they didn't. Pan Am 103 and AI 182 were blown out of the sky. And we're talking about the possibility of that here too.

The UA and US 737's that crashed were both during maneuvering on landing, with warning given to ATC by the pilots. It didn't happen at cruise, it didn't happen with no distress call and it was due to a design defect. It's not impossible, but it would be even unlikelier than a hijacking and safe landing that a design defect exists in the 777-200 that could bring it down from cruise with no distress call. We can talk about that if you believe it to be the case, though.

AF 447 wouldn't have happened in clear weather. That's not to say the weather caused it, but it did initiate it, and it was suspected as being involved in the accident right from the beginning. There's no such naturally occurring prime suspect here. And the pilots of MH370 shouldn't have been out of contact with ATC. (From what I've read in earlier threads, they had just been handed off.) If AF447 was in contact with ATC, there probably would have been some kind of distress call or at least indication of a problem. It didn't happen suddenly.

China Airlines 611 is the only one of your examples that really comes close to matching the description of what we know so far of MH370. But that was due to a faulty repair. We went through that possibility with this plane back in thread 1 and it hasn't been totally ruled out, but it seems extremely unlikely to me given their apparent turn to the left before disappearing from radar (the damaged wing was the right wing).

Also, probably worth pointing out that China Airlines 611 broke up at 3:28PM and was found at 5:05PM the same day.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2014-03-09 16:01:05 and read 64885 times.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 109):
Exactly, there would have been a radar return regardless of turning the transponder off, until it crashed, or lost the "dot" if a bomb did explode

Even if there was an explosion that caused an immediate failure, short of it vaporizing the entire thing, you still should have some primary targets, like TWA800 when it went down in pieces. No?

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Daleaholic
Posted 2014-03-09 16:01:15 and read 64910 times.

I may have dreamt this but in the past, possibly the AF crash, didn't airliners fly at lower altitude in the area where the wreckage may have been? And ask passengers to look out for anything...?

I'm sure they did this. Could be an idea to speed up the search?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-09 16:01:55 and read 64930 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 107):
No, the article gave the impression that the system reported directly to Boeing of any abnormalities in flight behaviour ...

It might be that Norwegian Boeing 787s send ACARS information directly to the Boeing because Norwegian has a Boeing maintenance program. However, the reporter makes a wrong conclusion this to be a generic feature to all Boeing planes & airlines.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-09 16:04:38 and read 64597 times.

IMO the image in the article below is not of a door of a MH 777. The bottom 1/3 of the doors on the MH 777s have the color red or red and blue which this thing does not have. The cargo doors should be grey or grey and blue which this thing is not. The position / size of what would be the window also does not match. I apologize if this article has already been posted.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201...ia-says-plane-may-have-turned-back

[Edited 2014-03-09 16:06:17]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: AS737MAX
Posted 2014-03-09 16:07:22 and read 63746 times.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 112):

Correct, there was a radar station off of Long Island, NY that picked up TW800 after the nose broke off, or being returned as multiple primary targets. Malaysian authorities may very well not be releasing everything they know to the public

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2014-03-09 16:07:45 and read 63685 times.

The bullet analogy doesn't apply. A bullet has very little mass, and thus it's momentum can be dissipated quite easily by a large amount of water. A bullet can become lodged in pillows, books, etc. Further, it is unpowered, decelerating from the time of leaving the muzzle/barrel, has no fins or other mechanisms to prevent pitch and yaw resulting in tumbling. And the amount of drag on the bullet due to water's various physical properties is great due to the size of the bullet.

An aircraft has far more momentum due to it's mass and requires far more energy to dissipate that momentum. It is very large so the drag from water's properties would have far less effect. It is designed to not only move forward stably through fluids, but to self-correct it's course. Once hitting the water, depending on the angle and whether the aircraft was still pressurized, it could fall to the bottom of the ocean at great speed, accelerating from the point of impact (after the initial dissipation of energy/momentum). Thus it could strike the bottom with sufficient force to both break apart and embed itself under the sand/silt layer.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-09 16:09:40 and read 63314 times.

My guess is this floating debris is an interior part. Either that, or it is nothing to do with the aircraft at all. Could be flotsam from a fishing boat.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-09 16:11:22 and read 62837 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 115):
The cargo doors should be grey or grey and blue which this thing is not.

Doors have two sides.... what's the interior color of a cargo door?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-09 16:11:28 and read 62979 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 114):
It might be that Norwegian Boeing 787s send ACARS information directly to the Boeing because Norwegian has a Boeing maintenance program. However, the reporter makes a wrong conclusion this to be a generic feature to all Boeing planes & airlines.

Yes, I thought so too  

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2014-03-09 16:12:28 and read 62813 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 87):
I think somebody said A330 had carbon-fiber stabiliser, while 777 has aluminium.

The vertical stab is carbon fiber on the 777. Not to sound like too much of a jerk here but it is a relatively quick and simple google search for that kind of information. Not to mention it has been posted up thread (now that isn't as simple).

tortugamon

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-09 16:13:45 and read 62491 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 118):

I agree. If that is the only thing spotted in the area then I would tend to think that it is more likely nothing to do with the aircraft at all.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: DiamondFlyer
Posted 2014-03-09 16:14:43 and read 62131 times.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 116):
Correct, there was a radar station off of Long Island, NY that picked up TW800 after the nose broke off, or being returned as multiple primary targets. Malaysian authorities may very well not be releasing everything they know to the public

I would think, that if they had some primary returns, we could at least narrow down the search area. Given the haphazard nature in which this whole situation has gone, I'd be on the side saying there isn't anything from the primary returns, which makes this case even more odd.

-DiamondFlyer

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-09 16:16:27 and read 61824 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 117):

An aircraft has far more momentum due to it's mass and requires far more energy to dissipate that momentum. It is very large so the drag from water's properties would have far less effect. It is designed to not only move forward stably through fluids, but to self-correct it's course. Once hitting the water, depending on the angle and whether the aircraft was still pressurized, it could fall to the bottom of the ocean at great speed, accelerating from the point of impact (after the initial dissipation of energy/momentum). Thus it could strike the bottom with sufficient force to both break apart and embed itself under the sand/silt layer.

I think you are forgetting one thing: An aircraft is not a solid object. It is a metal (in this case) tube with air taking up a large volume of it's interior. Hitting the water at speed is like hitting concrete. It would shatter on impact with only larger, heavy and relatively solid objects penetrating the water to any great depth.

[Edited 2014-03-09 16:48:50]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: awthompson
Posted 2014-03-09 16:16:32 and read 61822 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 44):
Thanks for clarifying, this makes it more puzzling isn't it? 40 ships and 20+ aircraft should have found some signs of the aircraft at the last known position then based on the ADSB data. Is there a possibility of the ADSB failing and the aircraft flying for a significant distance after that? If, so, could the same failure that caused ADSB to fail also cause communications failure where the crew could not communicate to the outside world but could still fly the plane for some distance before crashing?

The ADSB transmission may have ceased due to a sudden catastrophic 'event' or the aircraft may have gone out of range of suitable receivers.

There is also another more detailed but less frequent transmission which can be automatic or pilot originated known as ACARS. An ACARS transmission (sent automatically) gave us early clues in the Air France 447 crash aftermath, specifically details of a string of systems failures as a result of temporary loss of speed data. We don't know for sure whether MH370 did transmit such data via ACARS, at least it is not in the public domain. However a catastrophic breakup of the aircraft would also have put paid to this possibility.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-09 16:18:14 and read 61494 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 119):

The slight curve in the object would lead me to believe that if it was a door it is floating with the outside facing up in the water so should have the colors.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2014-03-09 16:19:22 and read 61982 times.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 116):
Correct, there was a radar station off of Long Island, NY that picked up TW800 after the nose broke off, or being returned as multiple primary targets. Malaysian authorities may very well not be releasing everything they know to the public

Thats what I have started to think. After reading and hearing so much about this I have just about come to the conclusion that the plane had some kind of catastrophic failure and the pax with the stolen passports just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

One of the newscasts I heard was that one of the pax with the stolen passports was going to Amsterdam and the other to Copenhagen. Obviously they were up to no good. However, they could have been involved in human trafficking or drug trafficking and/or other very unsavory things. However, none of them may be connected the disappearance of the plane.

I wonder if Malaysian authorities dont already know some of the details of that and are not releasing the information as they might be two major investigations going on at the same time. Just my two cents worth.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: horstroad
Posted 2014-03-09 16:19:26 and read 62133 times.

Quote:
Aviation sources in China report that radar data suggest a steep and sudden descent of the aircraft, during which the track of the aircraft changed from 024 degrees to 333 degrees.




the location of the debris that might come from MH370 coincides with the possible change of the flight path...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2014-03-09 16:21:47 and read 61451 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 107):
No, the article gave the impression that the system reported directly to Boeing of any abnormalities in flight behaviour

That's ACARS, you can specify the receiver for specific types of messages and with MX it usually happens in the back group over either VHF/HF/Iridium.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-09 16:22:56 and read 61125 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Didn't you already post that photo in an earlier part of this thread? This thread is already long enough without repeating previous posts.

It´s actually the third time. And yes, I agree with you.

I don´t think too much stock need to be put on the airplane turning back. KAL 007 did a lot of crazy turns when hit with two missiles and took about 15-20 minutes to hit the water. There was actually a transmission by the crew, which was picked up by the Japanese. Equally, JAL 123 did a lot of maneuvers while damaged, until eventually crashing.

So if some catastrophic event happened it is possible the plane turned, an probably turned again, unless what is shown in the radar is a constant purposeful turn which we don´t know and apparently is disputed by some authorities.

It´s going to be found sooner or later.

About the two guys with passports. My opinion is that they are just a couple of criminals. Probably being searched already internationally, as many paedophiles are, and definitely needed two passports they could use to return to Europe without being identified. Hailing from that part of the world, Pattaya...one Austrian, it wouldn´t surprise me this is what those two are about.

[Edited 2014-03-09 16:29:29]

[Edited 2014-03-09 16:31:53]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Julian773
Posted 2014-03-09 16:23:39 and read 61111 times.

Chances are that any objects that are found on its own don't belong to the aircraft. I would expect there to be more wreckage in the vicinity. I bet there is a lot of trash and other insignificant objects floating around in our oceans that we don't know of. Extensive SAR like this would find a lot of there 'false alarms'. Nevertheless worth checking though.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: PIKtoYEG
Posted 2014-03-09 16:25:21 and read 61607 times.

Just watching BBC World Service, their live reporter in KA is providing a 'new' update: "the Black Box is not emitting any signal, as stated by Malaysian Airlines".

Does anyone know what the actual distance is that the Black Box can transmit over, presumably there must be some sort of distance limitation? If you're not within range you won't pick up the transmission...

Still stating Vietnamese Navy 'may have found a debris field' but these reports still unconfirmed.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-09 16:26:51 and read 60537 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 111):
No, they didn't. Pan Am 103 and AI 182 were blown out of the sky. And we're talking about the possibility of that here too.

The point i am trying to make is that the planes did fall out of the sky (irrespective of whether they were blown up, stalled due to pilot error or fell due to mechanical problems) at various stages of flights cruise or landing. You can add TWA flight 800 too to the list of planes that fell out of the sky and left everyone scratching their heads. And if you read my post carefully, i said that yes, the causes are different in all the examples i stated. I was just saying that your statement that "planes just don't fall out of the sky" is not true. But, of course, if you are suggesting that they don't fall out of the sky without a reason or cause..then yes i agree absolutely (and in fact it is obvious).

[Edited 2014-03-09 16:30:48]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: awthompson
Posted 2014-03-09 16:31:17 and read 59621 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Didn't you already post that photo in an earlier part of this thread? This thread is already long enough without repeating previous posts.

Apologies. The point of my post at reply 24 was to provide a general recap of all 6 parts to save newcomers the need to trawl through hundreds of previous posts. I thought posting the photo would help keep things interesting as there have been few photos or diagrams to help break up the monotony of so much text on this forum. The photo is of course directly relevant to the subject being discussed and puts a very recent 'face to the name' so to speak. Yes it was posted earlier but newcomers to the thread are unlikely to go back through everything. Also the photo is significant as it remains the most recent photo thus far of 9M-MRO, unless anyone can find me an even more recent example. Mine was taken on 28th January 2014.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 16:32:22 and read 59994 times.

This article says a Window Fragment was found: http://mobile.businessweek.com/news/...ragment-found-by-vietnam-searchers
I aapologize if this is old news.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-09 16:36:59 and read 58532 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 127):
One of the newscasts I heard was that one of the pax with the stolen passports was going to Amsterdam and the other to Copenhagen. Obviously they were up to no good. However, they could have been involved in human trafficking or drug trafficking and/or other very unsavory things. However, none of them may be connected the disappearance of the plane.


Well like Hywel writes in reply 48 it could be as simple as that they were refugees
on their way to Europe to seek asylum (see links below). However that does, of course,
not exclude any criminal intent with their journey that they might have had with their journeys.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...uket-another-link-to-missing-mh370
http://phuketwan.com/tourism/stolen-...-fate-malaysia-flight-mh370-19868/
http://asiancorrespondent.com/119480...rian-asylum-seekers-denies-access/

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 132):
Just watching BBC World Service, their live reporter in KA
is providing a 'new' update: "the Black Box is not emitting any signal, as stated by Malaysian Airlines".

Does anyone know what the actual distance is that the Black Box can transmit over,
presumably there must be some sort of distance limitation? If you're not within range
you won't pick up the transmission...

I don't know the lateral distance but vertically the signal should be able to be
detected at up to 20'000ft. http://rjeint.com/pdf/DK120.PDF

[Edited 2014-03-09 16:39:46]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-09 16:38:52 and read 58149 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 132):
the Black Box is not emitting any signal

They would have to know where the "black box" is to know that it is not pinging.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-09 16:39:41 and read 58463 times.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 128):
the location of the debris that might come from MH370 coincides with the possible change of the flight path..

The debris is at 353° and 113NM from the last known position of MH370 (near IGARI waypoint, when the aircraft should be turning right to intercept airway M765).
But I agree, it's in the direction of the flight path after the supposed left turn.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Reffado
Posted 2014-03-09 16:40:54 and read 58038 times.

Glad they found something, even if small. Would be really terrifying to see something in the likes of RG 967 happening again.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-09 16:44:20 and read 57259 times.

It is amazing that after 48 hours, nothing

Even the RAAF is getting involved with 2 Orion

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...ished/story-fnizu68q-1226849877056

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: gosimeon
Posted 2014-03-09 16:44:22 and read 57033 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 137):

What distance do they emit a signal to? I'd imagine most potential crash sites have at Least been scoured at a reasonable distance by now.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 16:45:28 and read 57006 times.

Quoting Reffado (Reply 139):

It's probably not from the plane, though.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: horstroad
Posted 2014-03-09 16:45:53 and read 56973 times.

Quoting danvs (Reply 138):
The debris is at 353° and 113NM from the last known position of MH370

oh thanks. I didn't know the exact position, just eye-balled it from the graphic. anyways, this was my point:

Quoting danvs (Reply 138):

But I agree, it's in the direction of the flight path after the supposed left turn.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 16:46:20 and read 56775 times.

Amazing, this thread has so far generated 7 parts, 1611 Posts, and is anyone out there any wiser, beyond the fact that all we know for certain is that a Malaysian Airlines B777 is missing, and two passengers, maybe more, were travelling on stolen passports.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: caribb
Posted 2014-03-09 16:48:14 and read 56714 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 126):
The slight curve in the object would lead me to believe that if it was a door it is floating with the outside facing up in the water so should have the colors.

CNN is reporting the door is an "interior door".. so maybe to a lavatory or kitchen. There should be no colours on it. I've also read the door was a baggage door which makes more sense, thus explaining the slight curve but not the big dark spot (window? or maybe a lever) or like you said is not grey. Perhaps it's got nothing to do with this flight. I think in the end they are just grabbing at straws,, anything that looks like it's related to the plane.

[Edited 2014-03-09 16:49:56]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: huxrules
Posted 2014-03-09 16:50:33 and read 55976 times.

At this point I'm shocked that they still haven't found anything. So if we are blindly guessing - what are the chances of an inflight fire (electrical problems- no comms) followed by a successful ditching and then a sinking. I wonder if there is enough fuel in the wings to keep the plane floating even if it is filled with water. Such a strange accident.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-09 16:50:34 and read 56139 times.

Quoting caribb (Reply 145):
CNN is reporting the door is an "interior door"..

Proabably reading this forum  

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 16:50:48 and read 56198 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 144):

It's pretty strange not to know anything official by now.

I think that is fueling the speculation, and the longer this goes on without any real info, the more we will speculate.

We need a direction to go, and we don't have one.

So we wander around.  

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-09 16:52:37 and read 55624 times.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 125):

The ADS link in the area is not via the mode S transponder, it is satellite based.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 132):

The range is only 1-2km, it is a ultra sonic transmission. They are there to assist in locating the black boxes when the position is known, not for locating the aircraft.

The ELT will not work under water.

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 140):

That is the best way to find it, they can drop a sonor buoy grid and listen for the pinger. A submarine would also be useful. Surface ships would have limited capability to perform an area search for the pinger.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cipango
Posted 2014-03-09 16:52:43 and read 55635 times.

Quoting caribb (Reply 145):
CNN is reporting the door is an "interior door".. so maybe to a lavatory or kitchen. There should be no colours on it. I've also read the door was a baggage door which makes more sense, thus explaining the slight curve but not the big dark spot (window? or maybe a lever) or like you said is not grey.

I can not see this being anything to do with the disappearance of MH 370. If it was, it would not be on its own, it would have at least a few more pieces of debris - such as some luggage, a seat cushion etc. I just can't imagine them finding a panel/door/baggage door and not find anything else within proximity.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 16:57:16 and read 54951 times.

Hi LTC8K6, Your spot on! But as I sort through the Wheat from the Chaff of this thread, I have come to the realisation I would never have the patience to work for the NSA, nor would I ever want to.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-09 16:59:26 and read 54972 times.

I've learnt an incredible amount reading this,
- search and rescue operations
- how handoff btw ATC works
- all about ACARS
- passport and visa protocols
- i've learnt all about other types of accidents
- found some other aviation sites, via links
- all about the geography of the area, which i knew little of
- ELTs and when they do and don't work
- and much much more

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cipango
Posted 2014-03-09 17:05:21 and read 54158 times.

I just had a thought:

People are going on and on about the stolen passports and many have implied that they "chose" the KUL-PEK on purpose.

If they were simply people trying to get into the EU as some believe, maybe the flight from KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH/FRA was cheaper to fly from Malaysia than from Thailand.

This is under the assumption that they were simply passengers and not linked to terrorism.



[Edited 2014-03-09 17:07:54]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Hywel
Posted 2014-03-09 17:13:52 and read 52601 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 153):
If they were simply people trying to get into the EU as some believe, maybe the flight from KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH/FRA was cheaper to fly from Malaysia than from Thailand.

Yep, I'm not treating it as suspicious until we have more facts. I've often flown from other countries to save money, e.g. flying IST-PEK-HKG instead of LHR-HKG to save over $300 including the positioning flight LHR-IST. The cost of getting from Thailand to Kuala Lumpur is negligible as there are cheap bus services.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 17:15:59 and read 52286 times.

Hi stuyyz, yes you can learn alot if you read every post, but I did notice, I think it was in part 5 or 6, post 121 there was mention of ATC in Vietnam contacting a B777 travelling half an hour ahead of the Malaysian B777, asking if they could establish contact with them. The subsequent posters appeared to miss this as they did not comment on this interesting piece of new information, until someone mentioned it again in part 7, which points to a communications failure on the missing aircraft.

Plus I was getting frustrated at reading over an over again about the oil slick observed from a search plane, when a few posters have pointed out it is more likely a naturally occuring organic marine phenomena.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-09 17:16:29 and read 51976 times.

Quoting caribb (Reply 145):
CNN is reporting the door is an "interior door".. so maybe to a lavatory or kitchen.

You folks need to realize that media outlets lift a lot of the information they publish in circumstances like the ones we are currently experiencing from websites like this one - because they have no more insight into the situation than we do AND they do not have the expert knowledge that is abundantly available here. Just think of how the information about the etickets of the two fake passngers made it into the media yesterday.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cc2314
Posted 2014-03-09 17:17:34 and read 51870 times.

Is the local news in Malasia/thailand and vietnam pushing this story?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 17:19:01 and read 51642 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 155):

The timing of the supposed communication was many minutes after it was gone from the radar.

1:22 versus "after 1:30"

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cjg225
Posted 2014-03-09 17:21:32 and read 51236 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 155):
Hi stuyyz, yes you can learn alot if you read every post, but I did notice, I think it was in part 5 or 6, post 121 there was mention of ATC in Vietnam contacting a B777 travelling half an hour ahead of the Malaysian B777, asking if they could establish contact with them. The subsequent posters appeared to miss this as they did not comment on this interesting piece of new information, until someone mentioned it again in part 7, which points to a communications failure on the missing aircraft.

Wasn't this found to be false?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2014-03-09 17:22:22 and read 50805 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 149):
The ADS link in the area is not via the mode S transponder, it is satellite based.

AKA ADS-C which does position reporting automatically.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-09 17:24:24 and read 50611 times.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 159):
Wasn't this found to be false?

It was alleged to be false. However, given that the "official" sources have been shown to be wrong on this, it's difficult to tell who to trust.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-09 17:25:40 and read 50724 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 155):
The subsequent posters appeared to miss this as they did not comment on this interesting piece of new information

I commented on Part 4, reply 236:
"There was a Malaysia Airlines A330 (KUL-KIX) which was ahead but a lot closer to MH370...
I wonder why Vietnamese ATC didn't ask this crew instead."

But then, I've been reading that this communication between the airplanes never happened.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-09 17:29:22 and read 49871 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 153):
If they were simply people trying to get into the EU as some believe, maybe the flight from KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH/FRA was cheaper to fly from Malaysia than from Thailand.

I think it's a fair bet that some nefarious activity is involved with those two. The holders of two passports stolen a year apart end up walking into a Pattaya travel agency together for one-way tickets to two different destinations but want the same itinerary until they get to Amsterdam, and they will be departing the next day from a different country 800 miles away?

The question is whether the nefarious activity has anything to do with the crash and perhaps it doesn't. (Like the coke dealer about to testify in a major drug trial who died flying on USAir to the trial. Ultimately had nothing to do with the accident, but was certainly "interesting" as Lt. Joe Kenda would say.) But this IS the kind of behavior that was planned for the Bojinka Plot.

The travel agency would be well aware of the cover story given by these two, but I'm sure we're not going to be privy to it as the authorities doubtless want to keep it close to their vest.

I suspect that a lot of material is being withheld at the moment in the hope that if this is terrorism the terrorists can be caught. Like how the ATF withheld that they had quickly found an axle with the VIN tag for the Ryder truck carrying the bomb in the 1993 WTC bombing. That was an amazing piece of police work, allowing them to quickly identify it as a Ryder truck and where it was last rented. That the guy who rented it was stupid enough to claim it was stolen and demand his deposit back led to prompt arrests and an enormous break in the case that otherwise wouldn't have happened, and the break certainly wouldn't have happened if the ATF had announced what it had found.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 17:29:31 and read 49716 times.

Thanks LTC8K6, cjg225 and danvs for the clarification.

[Edited 2014-03-09 17:33:43]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-09 17:30:27 and read 49502 times.

Regarding speculation, this discussion comes up after every major crash. We come here to spitball and speculate. If you've followed the site for even a little while you will know who has real industry knowledge and who does not. The Respect Rating, while by no means perfect, also gives an indication. In the case of AF447, some of the "crazy theories" floated in the threads pretty much explained the crash within a few days of it occuring, if you knew who to listen to.

I haven't been in a crash investigation, but it is my understanding that at this stage investigators will be brainstorming and coming up with any scenario, no matter how far-fetched, until they can dismiss it with new data. Basically they're also spitballing.

If this website said "official channel of the investigators", then of course there is a responsibility to be factual and restrained. Instead it is a public forum. Again, if the casual reader or journalist can't understand that, we can't help him. Besides, I can guarantee that the speculation here, while sometimes a bit "extravagant", seems strictly rational compared to what you'll see on Twitter if you search the #MH370. Or YouTube comments.

If journos with less than stellar fact checking and scruples want to glean crazy theories from here, so be it. They were going to do that anyway.

This is the General Aviation forum. We talk generally about aviation. There is a place on this very site where the moderators are much stricter with technical content. That is tech_ops.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 75):

I read in an article in a newspaper here in Norway, that every Boeing Aircraft is fitted with a device that reports back to Boeing base, any abnormal flight movements ... Is this true ? If so, does Boeing know more than what is so far published ?

As mentioned above, not all airlines subscribe to this service.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 85):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
Do we know if a 777 tail would float similarly if in one piece ?

From what I have read a few hundreds replies earlier, I believe it would float.

Probably, but that would imply it is in one piece and not attached to the rest of the tail. Too many variables.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 110):
Is an ELT likely to survive a crash on land?

Depends very much on the impact.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 132):
Just watching BBC World Service, their live reporter in KA is providing a 'new' update: "the Black Box is not emitting any signal, as stated by Malaysian Airlines".

Does anyone know what the actual distance is that the Black Box can transmit over, presumably there must be some sort of distance limitation? If you're not within range you won't pick up the transmission...

I don't know what the reporter heard but I would speculate the spokesperson said they can't find a signal. Unless you find the box or hear a ping, there's no way of proving it is not emitting a ping. Can't prove a negative.


Answers to previous thread:

Quoting Finn350: Certainly possible that a suicidal crewmember first turns off the transponder and then nose dives, but why bother with the turning off the transponder? Answer: Fair point from a rational perspective, but one could counter-argue that this is a sick person and not entirely rational.


Quoting ksbd: Just to add to some speculation, has anybody seriously considered extraterrestrial involvement yet? Answer: Well, I did mention Flight 714 to Sydney...

Quoting jetfuel: The most useful piece of evidence is possibly the ACARS DATA. Why have we seen nothing of the ACARS info. Answer: not all airlines subscribe to ACARS that way. There may be no ACARS data sent from the plane. There was ADS-B data but that doesn't have any systems status info.

Quoting EA CO AS: The most useful piece of evidence is possibly the ACARS DATA. Why have we seen nothing of the ACARS info
Aswer: Indeed. However equipping all airliners, or even just the ones which fly overwater, with such a system would be astronomically costly and only pay off perhaps once or twice a decade.

Quoting Kiwinlondon: Dangerous goods in the hold that caused a fire. Someone did mention it earlier but no comments have followed that I have seen. Answer: Certainly a possibility, but a cargo fire is unlikely to develop so quickly the pilots would have had no time to make a distress call.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: illinicmi
Posted 2014-03-09 17:34:01 and read 49114 times.

I apologize if this has been asked, but can the 777 dump fuel?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-09 17:36:59 and read 48510 times.

And one other thought...given how unusual it is for a major airliner to catastrophically depart from controlled flight, there are any number of possibilities not being fully-explored here.

It could be as simple as captain goes to pee, f/o locks him out, switch off transponder and communication electrics, and dive it into the drink. If EgyptAir had never happened, everybody would say that this was an insane conjecture, but it did happen so it isn't.

Perhaps there will be an equally-"preposterous" reason for this tragedy that we haven't seen before.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cipango
Posted 2014-03-09 17:37:06 and read 48496 times.

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 166):
I apologize if this has been asked, but can the 777 dump fuel?

Yes it can. Most commercial aircraft have the ability to dump fuel, especially those used on long-haul flights.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-09 17:37:54 and read 48368 times.

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 166):
I apologize if this has been asked, but can the 777 dump fuel?

Yes.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-09 17:38:35 and read 48061 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 168):
Most commercial aircraft have the ability to dump fuel

I don't know about "most", but this one can.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-09 17:40:21 and read 48163 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 168):

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 166):
I apologize if this has been asked, but can the 777 dump fuel?

Yes it can. Most commercial aircraft have the ability to dump fuel, especially those used on long-haul flights.

Actually most commercial aircraft do not have the ability to dump fuel because the equipment adds weight and complexity. Nowadays it is pretty much only widebodies.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Stabilator
Posted 2014-03-09 17:42:11 and read 47690 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 23):
Could it? Water stops fast objects pretty quickly. Bullets are not lethal a few meters under water IIRC.

Perhaps, but a 773 is considerably more massive than a bullet and would penetrate much further.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-09 17:42:16 and read 47798 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 155):
Plus I was getting frustrated at reading over an over again about the oil slick observed from a search plane, when a few posters have pointed out it is more likely a naturally occuring organic marine phenomena.

There has been (at least) three different pics posted about the oil slick(s).
Two of them indeed looked just like natural organic organisms called Cyanobacterias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

The third picture however very much looked like an oil spill and it's location was claimed
to be in the approximative area in which the plane is believed to have disappeared.
However it could just be a random picture of an oil spill with no connection to this case.

[Edited 2014-03-09 17:43:16]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: illinicmi
Posted 2014-03-09 17:42:19 and read 47676 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 168):
Yes it can. Most commercial aircraft have the ability to dump fuel, especially those used on long-haul flights.

Thanks. I know I've heard that some newer planes can't (maybe some from Airbus?), but perhaps those are smaller ones.

Now humor me on this. What's the shortest conceivable runway a 777 could land on after having dumped/used most of its fuel? And whatever that size is, has anybody looked to see how many of those runways exist around that area? Obviously commercial airports could be excluded because we would know it's there, but could you "theoretically" set one of these down on a dirt strip?

I know this is out there, but it beats all the running in circles we've been doing.

[Edited 2014-03-09 17:43:24]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cipango
Posted 2014-03-09 17:43:21 and read 47659 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 171):
Actually most commercial aircraft do not have the ability to dump fuel because the equipment adds weight and complexity. Nowadays it is pretty much only widebodies.

Excuse my ignorance in that case! You learn something new everyday!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-09 17:46:11 and read 46756 times.

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 174):
Now humor me on this. What's the shortest conceivable runway a 777 could land on after having dumped/used most of its fuel?

Boeing have a diagram of the runway requirements of the B777:
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...ercial/airports/acaps/7772sec3.pdf

This is with some safety margins I would assume?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 17:48:24 and read 46752 times.

Flight BA38 a B777-236ER, landed on wet grass at LHR, while attempting a dead stick landing on runway 027L and pulled up, having broken the landing gear, in under 400m from touch down point.

[Edited 2014-03-09 17:53:50]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-09 17:48:35 and read 46608 times.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 172):
Perhaps, but a 773 is considerably more massive than a bullet and would penetrate much further.

A bullet is travelling fast, is solid, and is designed to penetrate. An airliner is mostly a frame (i.e. not solid), has all sorts of outcroppings, and is travelling slower than the bullet. It has more mass but that mass is spread out. Depending upon how it hits, I think one would find that the contact with the water, which is of much greater density than air, will cause a massive and sudden deceleration that causes the frame to fold in on itself. Vis. ValuJet in the Everglades.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: ASA
Posted 2014-03-09 17:48:39 and read 46743 times.

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 174):
Thanks. I know I've heard that some newer planes can't (maybe some from Airbus?), but perhaps those are smaller ones.

Now humor me on this. What's the shortest conceivable runway a 777 could land on after having dumped/used most of its fuel? And whatever that size is, has anybody looked to see how many of those runways exist around that area? Obviously commercial airports could be excluded because we would know it's there, but could you "theoretically" set one of these down on a dirt strip?

I know this is out there, but it beats all the running in circles we've been doing.

Are you suggesting something along the lines of "Flight 714" ?!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_714

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKAqxO7bZwo

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-09 17:48:41 and read 46805 times.

I don't know if this has been posted already, but I don't think so...
I've read that Sepang FIR/ARTCC lost contact with MH370 before it entered Vietnamese airspace.
However, MH370 was flying on airway R208 and its last known position is at the border of Singaporean and Vietnamese airspace (basically at IGARI position), which is way past Malaysian control (74NM to be more precise).

In other words, it's the Singaporean air traffic controllers who must be inquired, not the Malaysian ones, correct?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 17:50:35 and read 46554 times.

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-...ane-5-theories-what-could-have-hap

Here's an interesting and less sensationalist recap by Singapore's Straits Times (usually the world's largest inter-company memo, but surprisingly a good source of news on MH 370 this time around).

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2014-03-09 17:51:08 and read 46439 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 155):

I think it was in part 5 or 6, post 121 there was mention of ATC in Vietnam contacting a B777 travelling half an hour ahead of the Malaysian B777, asking if they could establish contact with them. The subsequent posters appeared to miss this as they did not comment on this interesting piece of new information, until someone mentioned it again in part 7, which points to a communications failure on the missing aircraft.

Part of normal ATC procedure.
When an aircraft fails to communicate at a scheduled transfer point, communication check will begin. 15 minutes later an uncertainty phase is declared and later an Alert phase.
It was probably at the Alert phase that the company was officially informed. Hence the 1hr discrepancy between the reports of last contact.

Part of communication checks is to ask company aircraft in the vicinity to try and contact the aircraft on the company frequency. Sometimes a radio is switched over but not switched back.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-09 17:51:42 and read 46376 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 175):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 171):
Actually most commercial aircraft do not have the ability to dump fuel because the equipment adds weight and complexity. Nowadays it is pretty much only widebodies.

Excuse my ignorance in that case! You learn something new everyday!

No worries. Fuel dumping is only needed if the maximum take-off weight exceeds the maximum landing weight by a considerable margin, and this really only happens with wide bodies.

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 174):
Now humor me on this. What's the shortest conceivable runway a 777 could land on after having dumped/used most of its fuel? And whatever that size is, has anybody looked to see how many of those runways exist around that area? Obviously commercial airports could be excluded because we would know it's there, but could you "theoretically" set one of these down on a dirt strip?

Very theoretically yes. The dirt would add to the landing distance though.

A quick peek at the performance doc from Boeing (http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/acaps/7772sec3.pdf, page 54) shows that on a dry, level concrete or asphalt surface with no wind you'd need about 4500feet at mid-weights. However that includes a 30% safety factor and assumes 50ft height at the threshold, so the actual ground roll would be well under 3000 feet.

There are probably hundreds of runways longer than 3000 feet within a few hours flying of the area in question.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-09 17:51:44 and read 46447 times.

Well, they've had a couple of hours of daylight over there now on yet another day, and still nothing. Remarkable.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: zanl188
Posted 2014-03-09 17:51:49 and read 46452 times.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 172):
Perhaps, but a 773 is considerably more massive than a bullet and would penetrate much further.

Bullets are relatively solid, a 777 is relatively light & fragile. If a 777 was as "massive" as a bullet it wouldn't fly....

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2014-03-09 17:53:10 and read 46152 times.

I am trying to fine where it was talked about if it all on here but CNN was saying it may of tired to turn around to head to KUL. Is there any source saying that they did or how they would know that? Sorry trying to read though 1000+ post takes a long time.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 17:54:25 and read 45906 times.

Quoting ASA (Reply 179):
Are you suggesting something along the lines of "Flight 714" ?!!

I think we're all hoping for Laszlo Carreidas to be on the flight and for it to have landed at Rastapopoulos' island somewhere between Flores and Timor   

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-09 17:54:52 and read 45790 times.

What about the wing damage from the past? I understand that after repairs the aircraft was certified to fly. However, this does not appear to be much of a concern. I saw pictures and it seemed pretty extensive. It is coincidental that the same plane that suffered the wing damage is also involved in this incident. Why isn't this a cause of concern? Why not focus a bit on what we know than what we do not?

[Edited 2014-03-09 17:59:38]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-09 17:58:50 and read 45168 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 186):
I am trying to fine where it was talked about if it all on here but CNN was saying it may of tired to turn around to head to KUL. Is there any source saying that they did or how they would know that? Sorry trying to read though 1000+ post takes a long time.

It is possible that the authorities knows if this was the case but this has (to my knowledge)
not been confirmed and is just as much speculation as most of the other things discussed.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 17:59:02 and read 45143 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 186):
it may of tired

Might have tried?

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 186):
Sorry trying to read though 1000+ post takes a long time.

Well we are all doing it, so suggest you do it as well before posting.

Nothing much has been said about that, however. I believe it was the Malaysian military that suggested that. Which in turn supposedly prompted them to start looking over in the Andaman Sea on the Malacca Strait, which makes absolutely no sense as it would've had to turn back over Malaysian land.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: klmtom
Posted 2014-03-09 17:59:32 and read 45182 times.

Hi guys,

First post the a.net forum and new to the website!

First of all, and most importantly, thoughts go to the people affected.

secondly,

Quoting steve7e7 (Reply 93):

I had a thought that the crew could have become hypoxic which would explain the lack of comms

maybe this could have explained muffled/interference in communications also?

Also, if the aircraft did manage to change course, (flight radar 24 shows flights CES5093 and CES539 in the relative vicinity) wouldn't they have picked up the aircraft on their systems?

I'm no expert, but what are your thoughts?

cheers

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: illinicmi
Posted 2014-03-09 17:59:32 and read 45198 times.

Quoting ASA (Reply 179):
Are you suggesting something along the lines of "Flight 714" ?!!

Not suggesting anything, just exploring the possibility. Right now I guess I don't see how it's any less likely than any other scenario.

I'm also guessing you guys have probably talked about it earlier.

If you dumped fuel then pulled off your "Flight 714" landing, that would be consistent with the "oil slick" but no debris. Although I personally think it's not an oil slick but rather cyanobacteria.

If it "disintegrated at high altitutde" like I'm seeing all over the news now, there would certainly be no oil slick without tons of small debris in it.

If it hit the water at high speed, I also don't think there'd be an oil slick without debris around it.

What if she coasted in and "landed" on the water at low speed, then sank? Maybe only a few pieces of large debris? I'd still think we'd find something floating.

IMO the most likely option now is that everybody is looking in the wrong place.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-09 18:01:08 and read 44868 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 188):
What about the wing damage from the past? I understand that after repairs the aircraft was certified to fly. However, this does not appear to be much of a concern. I saw pictures and it seemed pretty extensive. It is coincidental that the same plane that suffered the wing damage is also involved in this incident. Why isn't this a cause of concern?

I'm sure the investigators are looking at this angle. However if the repair was done according to Boeing specs and certified correct, the wing would be at least as strong as when the plane came off the showroom floor.

Quoting klmtom (Reply 191):

Quoting steve7e7 (Reply 93):

I had a thought that the crew could have become hypoxic which would explain the lack of comms

maybe this could have explained muffled/interference in communications also?

The alleged communication with another plane seems at this stage never to have happened.

However hypoxia or the like cannot be discounted at this time. We just don't know.

Quoting klmtom (Reply 191):
Also, if the aircraft did manage to change course, (flight radar 24 shows flights CES5093 and CES539 in the relative vicinity) wouldn't they have picked up the aircraft on their systems?

The other planes, you mean? They'll only pick up TCAS (traffic system) info if the planes' can "see" each others' transponders, so they'd have to be relatively close. Also, the pilots aren't eyeballing TCAS every single second if they are not in a heavily trafficked area.

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:04:36]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: specks159
Posted 2014-03-09 18:02:05 and read 44838 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 188):

What about the wing damage from the past? I understand that after repairs the aircraft was certified to fly. However, this does not appear to be much of a concern. I saw pictures and it seemed pretty extensive. It is coincidental that the same plane that suffered the wing damage is also involved in this incident. Why isn't this a cause of concern?

While the wing damage looked bad, it only barely reached the outboard aileron. There is still the chance that the incident a few years ago could have caused some internal damage that wasn't noticed when the wing was inspected after the incident, but the wingtip falling off in the same place while in flight shouldn't have a catastrophic effect (the plane could definitely keep flying with that much of the wing missing). Someone earlier did mention that a wingtip event in flight could possibly lock the outboard aileron in an up or down position, which most definitely could cause a catastrophic event, but I wouldn't consider that to be the most likely cause at this point.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: flylku
Posted 2014-03-09 18:04:07 and read 44441 times.

It surprises me that the primary returns from the various radar systems have not shed more light (so we are told). In 2000 I was once flying over West Virginia in a Piper Tri-Pacer (single engine, metal frame covered in fabric) when the transponder failed. We turned it off and asked Washington Center for flight following based on the primary return. They reported that they saw us! If they could see us what would the primary return of a 777 look like? Even if it disintegrated in flight, pieces of the wreckage would be larger than the radar signature of our little Tri-Pacer.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-09 18:04:13 and read 44564 times.

Quoting danvs (Reply 138):



Has anyone noticed that the jet would have a glide distance between 100-120nm from 35.000. With derbies being 113nm, away from the last known position?


If those are debris, it means that the jet was in one piece as it came down, and it would have been a slow descent taking over 10 minuets.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 18:04:24 and read 44859 times.

For those of you who are Geographically challenged, I just wanted to post a map showing roughly where MH370 lost contact as well as where the Andaman Sea and the Malacca Strait is, to illustrate the low probability of finding anything there, if indeed the Malaysian authorities are actually searching there too, in addition to the Gulf of Thailand.



Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: SuperVC10er
Posted 2014-03-09 18:05:24 and read 44489 times.

Please note that in the thread title the airline's name should be "Malaysia Airlines" not Malaysian Airlines.

Let's hope we get some firm news on this event soon for the sake of the families of those involved. Our thoughts and prayers are with them.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-09 18:05:46 and read 44209 times.

Quoting specks159 (Reply 194):
Someone earlier did mention that a wingtip event in flight could possibly lock the outboard aileron in an up or down position, which most definitely could cause a catastrophic event, but I wouldn't consider that to be the most likely cause at this point.

Furthermore, the 777 has roll control from three sources: outboard aileron, inboard aileron and spoilers. So even without the outer aileron, roll control could be maintained.

Of course that would depend on damage and so forth.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 18:07:27 and read 43758 times.

Thanks Airvan00, when I said "communications failure", it implied a technical failure, when "failed to make contact on the new frequency." was more the case.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Redsand187
Posted 2014-03-09 18:09:12 and read 43471 times.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 172):

Figure the force over area. I'll bet you anything a solid lead bullet has more force over it's surface area then a hollow aluminum plane. Roughly 315 square feet (~45,000 square inches) vs 0.04 square inches. The cross section of the fuselage is literally 1,500,000 times greater then an average bullet. Now you factor just the volume of the fuselage and convert see what a bullet that size would be. You are roughly 60,000,000lbs of solid lead based on a run of the mill .223 round used in your average rifle. The bullet is traveling nearly 2000mph as well.

So granted the comparison isn't 1 to 1, for the plane to penetrate as deep as an AR15 round into the water, the plane would need to weigh roughly 60,000,000lbs and be going 2000mph.

Concrete is 50% more dense then water. How far into a 200ft deep slab of concrete do you think a 777 would go?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-09 18:11:21 and read 43603 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 193):
However if the repair was done according to Boeing specs and certified correct, the wing would be at least as strong as when the plane came off the showroom floor.

Say, if there was a major issue with that wing. Let's say part of it broke off, could it sever communications completely and immediately that nothing related to the planes' systems could be communicated automatically or by the pilots?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: specks159
Posted 2014-03-09 18:11:30 and read 43725 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 199):
Furthermore, the 777 has roll control from three sources: outboard aileron, inboard aileron and spoilers. So even without the outer aileron, roll control could be maintained.

Hypothetically, if the wingtip were to fall off, lock the outboard aileron, and then drain all of the hydraulic fluid in the area, is the hydraulic system on the 777 such that it would isolate the area and keep system pressure up for the rest of the plane? Or could that possible cause a UA232 like loss of hydraulic control?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 18:11:51 and read 43901 times.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 196):
http://tuoitrenews.vn/society/18186/...t-not-related-to-mh370-us-rescuers

U.S. search and rescue forces have confirmed the floating object a Singapore search plane had detected on Sunday afternoon is not in any way connected to Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 that has gone missing since early Saturday, according to a U.S. defense chief based in Vietnam.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-09 18:14:14 and read 43138 times.

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 192):
Quoting ASA (Reply 179):
Are you suggesting something along the lines of "Flight 714" ?!!

I don't think the plane can be on land anywhere, as there would be 227 cell phones trying to text/emai/twitter, etc.... as soon as the plane is low enough over land below radar, its almost 90% probability that it is in (or went through) some cell phone range somewhere.

I know my phone starts receiving/sending email/etc... well before landing.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Senchingo
Posted 2014-03-09 18:15:01 and read 43037 times.

This is kind of a first time to happen under the given circumstances. We are able to discuss over the internet in real time on forums and blogs around the planet. Witnesses could pass their information in no time and even upload pictures videos etc. Media is sending their teams to the spot within hours. SAR teams are deployed within the least possible time. Yet, we almost have no hard facts what exactly is/was going on.

All this i guess i the reason why this topic is exploding and hundreds and thousands of posts were created within the first 48 hours already in this forum alone.

I personally don't think we are "talking about souls on board" here in the first place. We, as mainly a forum for aviation lovers and tech geeks, are talking about the facts and possibilities of a wide body aircraft disappearing. Everybody understands that it might involve human casualties, but i don't think anyone is making a statement that is unfair or making fun of victims on purpose (of course some statements could use a little less sarcasm though).

Given the huge amount of background knowledge in every possible aspect on this website, i find it highly interesting to read along and piece by piece get new info, clear up questions or just declassifying wrong statements media-wise.

Of course, once this whole event is fully explained, there will be people claiming "i said exactly that in post #xxx", but nevertheless, why not just read along and follow the story?
If you exclusively want facts to be posted, you can still refer to websites giving just that.

Brgds/Sen

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2014-03-09 18:15:26 and read 43077 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 153):

People are going on and on about the stolen passports and many have implied that they "chose" the KUL-PEK on purpose.

If they were simply people trying to get into the EU as some believe, maybe the flight from KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH/FRA was cheaper to fly from Malaysia than from Thailand.

Well cheapest tickets was mentioned before and makes sense if they are westerners.

if they are Syrian refugees etc then its more likely due to the fact that the beijing route has been tested several times before by Syrian refugees going to Sweden. At present many have reached Sweden and beijing has started to send a few back thus we see 5 in a Phuket Jail for instance.

Whoever they were, they choose the wrong flight...

What id like to know is if there were more tickets bought in sequence from that Pattaya travel agency. Another one or two tickets bought in similar circumstances wouldnt be a huge surprise.
id also like to know what flight they took from BKK to KUL and if they just transited or if they had to check in manually to their MH flight. But i guess that will take its time.

The main reason for speculating about the false passports right now is that as long as there is no trace of the plane its very little that can be added and the false identities are the only tangible fact we can work with. And id like to know about this agency in pattaya, thats the issuer but are they also the one that sold the ticket?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 18:19:33 and read 42444 times.

For those in the know.

There was mention of a left turn from heading 024 to 333 IIRC. Now the Malaysian B777-200ER sustained damage on the starboard (right) wing. What would happen if the repair done to the wing had somehow failed, surely the aircraft would roll to the right in this instance, as more drag was applied to the starboard wing as a result of the wing tip failure, or would flutter on the starboard side be more of an issue.

Thanks in advance.

Thanks danvs I have corrected the headings to 024 to 333, as you pointed out.

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:44:18]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cal764
Posted 2014-03-09 18:23:06 and read 41609 times.

RIP all souls on board. Do we know which organization will be spearheadding the investigation? Chances are good NTSB, Boeing, the engine manufacture and the like will more than likely contribute to the investigation, and we know many different countries are assisting with the search..So very sad and I'm hoping someone didn't deliberately intend for this to happen or gross negliance for that matter.   

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-09 18:23:16 and read 41501 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 176):
This is with some safety margins I would assume?

The way I was always taught was that those distances were calculated under perfect conditions with test pilots performing them. The captain had a lot of hours so he could probably get close to those numbers.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 196):
Has anyone noticed that the jet would have a glide distance between 100-120nm from 35.000. With derbies being 113nm, away from the last known position?

If they were gliding it would certainly make sense that debris is so far away. But if they did glide over a long distance there still is the question of why they didn't alert anybody to the situation. I'm not sure what the best glide speed would have been, but lets just say it is 225 knots. That's roughly half an hour between power loss and splash down. That's a long time to be flying around and not alerting anybody to the issue.
Pat

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:25:56]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-09 18:23:56 and read 41673 times.

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 192):

The idea that it landed on the water at low speed like US Airways 1549 but sank in one piece is possible (the LHR BA 777 looked not too bad after hitting solid earth so I'm sure a 777 could land on water if done right and remain in one piece). That would explain why no debris have been found after so long. Landing in the water at that time of night would have given it enough time to sink before sunrise - but a night landing on the open sea? Very difficult! IIRC it did not take 1549 long to start sinking. I just find it strange that in such a well used area that nothing has been seen or found yet, nothing at all... Surely if it exploded in mid-air there would have to be some debris floating somewhere if it happened over water. If it happened over land, even in a remote area, something must have been heard or seen by now. I doubt that it could have been taken and landed somewhere without anybody knowing after so long. It did have about 5+ hours of fuel left at the time it went missing according to reports so it could be anywhere as it is not known when the plane actually stopped flying - so looking in the wrong area is very possible. I just find it strange that, if it crashed shortly after it went missing, nothing at all has been found after 2 1/2 days of searching now in its last known area. It could have flown around for much longer and be in a totally different area? It could have landed on the water in one piece and sank, leaving no debris? There are so many possibilities... If there was a massive explosion, bigger than TWA800 (as there was a lot of floating wreckage from TWA800), and the plane was blown into pieces at altitude, would it still be possible to find debris? I would assume so. And, how could such a massive explosion be possible? The 777 has a proven safety record so would getting such a powerful device onto a plane even be possible? The mystery continues...

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:29:29]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: specks159
Posted 2014-03-09 18:25:13 and read 41287 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 208):

For those in the know.

There was mention of a left turn from heading 333 to 024 IIRC. Now the Malaysian B777-200ER sustained damage on the starboard (right) wing. What would happen if the repair done to the wing had somehow failed, surely the aircraft would roll to the right in this instance, as more drag was applied to the starboard wing as a result of the wing tip failure, or would flutter on the starboard side be more of an issue.

Thanks in advance.

If the wingtip simply fell off, there would be a tendency to roll to the right. Not only would there be more drag on the starboard side, but the wing would also be generating less lift on that side. As for flutter, that is possible, although I'm not quite sure how severe it would have to be to have catastrophic effects though.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: RomeoBravo
Posted 2014-03-09 18:25:20 and read 41273 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 183):
No worries. Fuel dumping is only needed if the maximum take-off weight exceeds the maximum landing weight by a considerable margin, and this really only happens with wide bodies.

i was under the impression planes landing overweight was perfectly doable, it would just mean checks before the plane can be used again.

one wonders if the decision to dump fuel has ever cost a flight. i seem to recall SR111 for example didn't stand a chance even if it flew straight in.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-09 18:30:11 and read 40709 times.

Another point that just crossed my mind is that AF 447 came down intact and the passengers did not know about the event taking place. I think there were no oxygen masks deployed or floating vests worn. There were no calls of distress made or texts sent by passengers. The plane was also into the Atlantic where cell phone coverage is not expected.

MH 370 on the other hand was only about 40 min out from take off and in an area from where calls or texts are likely possible. Yet, no calls were made or texts received to my knowledge. This makes me somewhat convinced that whatever happened must have been extremely sudden and catastrophic, and the passengers did not have any prior knowledge.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-09 18:34:35 and read 39531 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 208):
There was mention of a left turn from heading 333 to 024 IIRC.

It's allegedly the opposite: from 024 to 333.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 210):
But if they did glide over a long distance there still is the question of why they didn't alert anybody to the situation.

And also why ATC couldn't see them gliding over such a long distance with their primary radar.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 18:37:48 and read 39108 times.

With a passenger manifest released, it will be interesting to see where the two passengers with the stolen passports were seated on the aircraft. If they were seated in the economy section, it would probably rule them out of a Hijacking scenario, as they would not be able to see the Cabin Crew activity i.e. flightdeck visits, etc, up front, or stroll into First Class unchallenged, provided there was no one else on the flight connected to them, up in First Class.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: infinit
Posted 2014-03-09 18:39:15 and read 38960 times.

On the two men traveling on stolen passports:

"Malaysian Home Minister says the passengers who used stolen European passports were of Asian appearance; criticises border officials who let them through"
http://www.todayonline.com/world/asi...isintegrated-mid-air-source-claims

"Thai police target "passport ring" in vanished flight probe"
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...ic/thai-police-target/1026784.html


*edit* added:

Malaysia probing possible terror link in jet mystery
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...aysia-launches-terror/1026114.html

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:44:01]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-09 18:41:31 and read 38304 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 183):
Very theoretically yes. The dirt would add to the landing distance though.

I'd think the dirt would subtract from the landing distance, as it would likely not be able to support the weight of the plane, and the gear would sink into the ground, putting the fuselage on the ground and causing a lot more friction to slow the plane down (and overstressing the gear in the process).

-Mir

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2014-03-09 18:42:09 and read 38335 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 207):
What id like to know is if there were more tickets bought in sequence from that Pattaya travel agency. Another one or two tickets bought in similar circumstances wouldnt be a huge surprise.
id also like to know what flight they took from BKK to KUL and if they just transited or if they had to check in manually to their MH flight. But i guess that will take its time.

On one of the locked threads there were comments about cheap ground transportation between BKK-KUL . In some travel books that is mention too.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: celestar
Posted 2014-03-09 18:42:26 and read 38440 times.

I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang.

1. Moden airliners don't disappear just like that. It must happen really fast and so sudden that nothing can be done about it by the air crew.
2. Remember KunMin attack few days ago and plus China is having their big annual meeting of sorts, all points out to a good reason why this act of terror could happen. There are so many Chinese nationals on this flight and it is heading towards Beijing. Now, with regard to Malaysian Muslim on board, I am not an expert but since there are so many different fractions within the Muslim world, the terrorist might choose to ignore them as brotherhood.
3. The Malaysian authority reported aircraft turning back - I think that is when the exposion happen and part of the damaged plane could be spinning in different direction and one large debris could be heading the other direction - again my guess, but to divert part of the search over Adaman Sea is simply a strange suggestion. If indeed the radar tracks shows that, it would have been properly detected on the radar screen.
4. Why nothing has been found - well, it takes time. I am not sure about the condition of the sea but I do recall one occasion when I was with the army in Singapore, we searched for a fallen airforce jet off the Sumatra coast and boy, what a muddy ocean that was and we wonder around for 3 days, continue to receive on and off buoy signals from the fallen jet and it took us two weeks to finally located the aircraft. In that instance, the pilot made it by parashuting out in time!
The muddy water seaboard could make detection of debris, very difficult and more time consuming than would otherwise expected.

My only question was why the terriorist group was so silience without taking responsibility? It then dawns on me that even with the Kun Ming massacre, I do not see the East Turkistan or any radical muslim group openly admitted their participation. I also recall the traffic accident happened at TienAnMen square months ago, where a car went up in flames and it was months later that someone from the same group admitted their involvement. Given little we know, it could be a different fraction within that group and that is why, with so much internal difference within the organization, it would be an act that is not coordinated.

I think the apparent fact of fake passport - one way ticket was further evidence. As there is little information regarding the other 5 who had checked in and did not show, and consequently their luggage removed, in my opinion, could be a decoy. I think the Malaysian authority probably are looking deep into this and with FBI help, they will get to a point that an announcement will be made soon. The last time MAS crashed was a B737-200 off Johore, apparently highjacked by a radical group. I remembered fondly because one of the victims was a classmate of mine and she sits right behind me.

My sincere and deep prayers go to all the deceased. It is always sad to see something like this happened.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: WingedMigrator
Posted 2014-03-09 18:42:36 and read 38393 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 117):
Once hitting the water, depending on the angle and whether the aircraft was still pressurized, it could fall to the bottom of the ocean at great speed, accelerating from the point of impact (after the initial dissipation of energy/momentum). Thus it could strike the bottom with sufficient force to both break apart and embed itself under the sand/silt layer.

That is a rather mistaken notion. Aircraft are quite fragile structures designed to operate in a fluid less than one thousandth the density of water. A typical aircraft structure will shred from excessive dynamic pressure upon impact with the water unless landed at a very shallow angle. Even the US Airways "textbook" landing on the Hudson River severely damaged the lower portion of the rear fuselage.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2014-03-09 18:42:49 and read 38089 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 188):
What about the wing damage from the past? I understand that after repairs the aircraft was certified to fly. However, this does not appear to be much of a concern. I saw pictures and it seemed pretty extensive. It is coincidental that the same plane that suffered the wing damage is also involved in this incident. Why isn't this a cause of concern? Why not focus a bit on what we know than what we do not?

You would be surprised how many airplanes are flying around that have had damage of that type and are still tooling around. I've seen some pretty hefty damage repaired first hand that essentially required a re-build of the entire aircraft. Replacing a wingtip and maybe an aileron is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. Beyond that even if it did fail it is doubtful that it would case something so catastrophic that the flight crew wouldn't have been able to make a call.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 202):
Say, if there was a major issue with that wing. Let's say part of it broke off, could it sever communications completely and immediately that nothing related to the planes' systems could be communicated automatically or by the pilots?

Doubtful this DHL A300 for example to a SAM to the wing and kept on trucking: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ommons/9/90/DHL_Iraq_missile_2.jpg

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: comair25
Posted 2014-03-09 18:43:26 and read 38090 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 214):
MH 370 on the other hand was only about 40 min out from take off and in an area from where calls or texts are likely possible. Yet, no calls were made or texts received to my knowledge. This makes me somewhat convinced that whatever happened must have been extremely sudden and catastrophic, and the passengers did not have any prior knowledge.


Last known radar reports puts the plane around FL350, I highly doubt anyone was going to get a text or call out. And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact.

[Edited 2014-03-09 18:46:52]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: gcb5196
Posted 2014-03-09 18:44:33 and read 37612 times.

Paraphrasing the FAR's if I remember correctly, so forgive me if I'm wrong. An aircraft can be designed to have a takeoff weight over max landing weight, but must have a way to dump/jettison fuel to reach max landing weight. As others have pointed out this involves most long haul wide body aircraft.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2014-03-09 18:46:03 and read 37544 times.

Quoting flylku (Reply 195):
It surprises me that the primary returns from the various radar systems have not shed more light (so we are told). In 2000 I was once flying over West Virginia in a Piper Tri-Pacer (single engine, metal frame covered in fabric) when the transponder failed. We turned it off and asked Washington Center for flight following based on the primary return. They reported that they saw us! If they could see us what would the primary return of a 777 look like? Even if it disintegrated in flight, pieces of the wreckage would be larger than the radar signature of our little Tri-Pacer.

In your case i expect you were illuminated by multiple radars. In this case it appears to be on the very edge, if not beyond, the coverage of primary radar

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2014-03-09 18:52:21 and read 36128 times.

Quoting specks159 (Reply 203):
Hypothetically, if the wingtip were to fall off, lock the outboard aileron, and then drain all of the hydraulic fluid in the area, is the hydraulic system on the 777 such that it would isolate the area and keep system pressure up for the rest of the plane?

I believe there are 3 separate hydraulic systems, so if the entire right one failed, there should still be no problem.

Also, regarding the wing tip. This incident happened in 2012, while multiple cycles could have weakened it over time, I see it as unlikely to have simply failed on this flight, where there was no significant weather or turbulence reported. Metal fatigue failures usually happen in turbulence, often within aircraft limitations, but well outside normal operating conditions.

I'm still astounded nothing has been found, I was surprised nothing had been found after 12 hours, and now just perplexed.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-09 18:54:48 and read 36127 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
one way ticket was further evidence

Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 18:54:56 and read 36061 times.

Quoting gcb5196 (Reply 224):

I don't think it MUST have a way to dump fuel if it has a MTOW over MGLW, but because of the insane difference between those numbers on Widebodies, most widebodies can dump.
Narrowbodies just fly around for a couple hours.
For instance, a B6 320 a few years back had some issue. It flew around a little bit to burn fuel before landing (back at LGB if IIRC).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: asetiadi
Posted 2014-03-09 18:55:36 and read 36135 times.

This is something that I never understand.... if you can track down a missile, why can't you track down a big plane?

Another thing is, why is it so hard to call mayday, it takes 1 second just to say a mayday word.

The last 2 big accidents, we were having trouble locating the plane. I guess FAA must do something about this because we can't afford to find a plane more than 24 hours. Too much data/important clue could go missing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: rdu2sfo
Posted 2014-03-09 18:56:00 and read 36143 times.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 225):
In your case i expect you were illuminated by multiple radars. In this case it appears to be on the very edge, if not beyond, the coverage of primary radar

This may have answered the question I was going to ask, which is, do we know the coverage of primary radar in the area where contact was last made. If there is primary radar coverage in that area then doesn't it stand to reason that it would be impossible for the aircraft to have descended intact. In addition, wouldn't it be true that the aircraft could not have travelled beyond any "blackout" area of primary radar coverage in the Gulf of Thailand because if it had it would have reappeared on primary radar.

If the above is correct, then I remain baffled as to how there seems to be such a large search area, including per published reports, in the Malacca Strait. Some basic process of elimination would seem to yield a relatively confined search area (emphasis on relatively).

Increasingly, it seems to me that there is no one in charge of the SAR effort. What I would consider a fairly chaotic SAR process is captured in the NY Times latest update:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/wo...a-airlines-flight.html?hp&_r=0

I would also note from this Times article that it appears samples were taking from that "oil" slick for testing. That would suggest that there was some actual non-naturally occurring fluid in the pictures of the slick that have been posted.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 18:56:48 and read 35816 times.

Further to the damaged starboard wing failure scenario, and out of curiousity, if the aircraft rolled to the right, because of increased drag and reduced lift owing to wing tip failure, would the Flight Software logic come into play and apply rudder input to port (left) side to compensate for the asymetric configuration, or does this scenario only apply to engine out scenario.

Thanks in advance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 19:00:10 and read 35189 times.

Quoting comair25 (Reply 223):
And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact.

No it wasn't. I strongly suggest you read through all of the ~1,250 posts like the rest of us have done, and/or check your assumptions first. If they had lost radar contact 2 hours into the flight, that would have put them north of Ho Chi Minh City, deep into Vietnamese land, not over the Gulf of Thailand.

On another note, I was going over the FR24 recording. Pretty chilling to see. But I noticed once they reached FL350, they were at a steady 24-25 deg heading, and the last recorded heading on FR24 (not as reliable, I know) is actually 40 deg, not 333 deg as suggested in other posts. So it seems there was certainly some maneuvering.

Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang.

I am also inclined to think the same. It will be interesting to see the faces of the two who used the fake / stolen passports, but ethnic Uighurs (who are a large minority in Xinjiang) do look Caucasian, so this is a very strong possibility. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong once the facts are known, but I am also strongly inclined to think it is foul play.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: airplane
Posted 2014-03-09 19:00:31 and read 35213 times.

Something has to come up float. Pieces of seat cushions, panels, fabric, etc. it's impossible for it to just vanish completely

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-09 19:02:57 and read 34799 times.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):

Another thing is, why is it so hard to call mayday, it takes 1 second just to say a mayday word.

It's been explained, many times that you aviate, navigate, THEN communicate. When it hits the fan, the only thing you should be doing is getting the aircraft stable. Not going to claim anything in regards to this flight but I will counter the notion that it's so simple to merely say Mayday. It's simple for you sitting in your chair but who knows what happened, there can be scenarios where the pilots are so bogged down that communicating is the last thing on their minds.

It would probably have to be something absurdly demanding that lasted until the crash but it's not impossible

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:06:01]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: argonaught
Posted 2014-03-09 19:03:31 and read 34774 times.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):
Too much data/important clue could go missing.

It's not impossible that there are survivors, whose chances to be rescued are dwindling with every passing hour.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2014-03-09 19:03:47 and read 34699 times.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):
This is something that I never understand.... if you can track down a missile, why can't you track down a big plane?

Missiles are higher. Radar (at least what we are talking about here) is line of sight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Boeing717200
Posted 2014-03-09 19:05:10 and read 34305 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

Historically that's what most have done. I'll grant you most of them are stupid.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-09 19:06:44 and read 33994 times.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):
Another thing is, why is it so hard to call mayday, it takes 1 second just to say a mayday word.

Aviate, navigate, communicate. Yeah it sounds bizarre to not call up and alert anybody. But your primary mission is to safely overcome this issue. Even if they did get the mayday out if there is limited radar coverage you're going to have to provide your location. Which takes time. If something catastrophic happened you don't know what could have happened to prevent them from communicating. Even easier would have been to just turn on the ELT (though I do not know where that is located in the 777) then make a mayday call. There is a number of things that could have happened to prevent them from making a mayday call. When there are many other aircraft on frequency, simply saying "Mayday" is the same as not saying anything.
Pat

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: RomeoBravo
Posted 2014-03-09 19:07:36 and read 33990 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

perhaps i'm overlooking something obvious, but what makes you say that?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 19:09:53 and read 33708 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

But if you think of how this would play out, e.g. two European backpackers on an extended vacation in SE Asia, now returning home, is not all that unusual. Not sure whether immigration authorities have access to airline reservation systems, but I have never been asked to show a return ticket when traveling in Southeast Asia.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-09 19:12:27 and read 32925 times.

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 185):

Exactly. A plane hitting the water in a dive is akin to stomping on an empty beer can.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-09 19:13:55 and read 33121 times.

Quote:
On Sunday, Vietnamese media reported that rescuers had found a yellow object they thought might be part of the aircraft. But the news media later said it turned out to be a coral reef.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/wo...aysia-airlines-flight.html?hp&_r=1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: rdu2sfo
Posted 2014-03-09 19:14:41 and read 32737 times.

The one-way ticket concept is stupid if you are a terrorist because a one-way ticket naturally attracts more scrutiny, and the assumption is that a terrorist has the resources to pay for the round-trip ticket. So if you have the resources why not mitigate the "risk" of greater scrutiny from a one-way ticket. But as someone else said it has historically often been the case that terrorist use one-way tickets.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-09 19:14:55 and read 32707 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 232):
But I noticed once they reached FL350, they were at a steady 24-25 deg heading, and the last recorded heading on FR24 (not as reliable, I know) is actually 40 deg, not 333 deg as suggested in other posts. So it seems there was certainly some maneuvering.

The last known position is near IGARI waypoint, where they should turn right heading 059° to intercept airway M765. It was turning right when it vanished from FR24.
The 333 deg comes from news (I'm not sure where), not from A.netters.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2014-03-09 19:14:55 and read 32690 times.

Quoting rdu2sfo (Reply 230):
Increasingly, it seems to me that there is no one in charge of the SAR effort. What I would consider a fairly chaotic SAR process is captured in the NY Times latest update:

Someone would be in charge. There would be a RCC (Rescue Coordination Centre) active somewhere in the area that would be coordinating the search effort. People would be following the guidelines laid down in ICAO docs.
Just because the newspapers don't get information dosen't mean that a lot is not going on.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 19:17:12 and read 32329 times.

Hi Celestar, If the missing Malaysian B777 was a politically motivated act of Terrorism, then it does seem strange that if it was a bomb that was detonated onboard, why was it set to detonate over water instead of over Chinese Airspace, where it would have more of a directed impact, unless it was in fact a Hijacking and passengers realising this, tried to regain control, as was the case with United 93.

Another thing, presumably there was some sort of drink or meal service provided, after reaching cruise altitude, which would block the ailse more, than after the service was completed, making a dash for the flightdeck more difficult.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-09 19:18:28 and read 31812 times.

Quoting airplane (Reply 233):
Something has to come up float. Pieces of seat cushions, panels, fabric, etc. it's impossible for it to just vanish completely

Not to mention all the fuel and oil; it has to be visible as a giant oil slick!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2014-03-09 19:18:28 and read 31861 times.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 228):
I don't think it MUST have a way to dump fuel if it has a MTOW over MGLW, but because of the insane difference between those numbers on Widebodies, most widebodies can dump.

Widebodies can land at MTOW if needed. Max landing wieght is for safe *routine* operation. If you need to land, doing so at MTOW runs the risk of damage to the aircraft, but it is still quite possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-09 19:19:30 and read 31801 times.

In terms of mobilized search crews/planes/ships - any ideas on how the number and capabilities of these resources add up? Are they overwhelmed with the sheer amount of area to search, or are the available resources more than adequate?

In other words, should it be surprising that nothing is found so far, or is expected because there just isn't enough search capacity?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-09 19:20:00 and read 31821 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 246):
Hi Celestar, If the missing Malaysian B777 was a politically motivated act of Terrorism, then it does seem strange that if it was a bomb that was detonated onboard, why was it set to detonate over water instead of over Chinese Airspace, where it would have more of a directed impact,

If you haven't inferred it from the discussion of previous explosions, water means a tougher investigation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 19:22:26 and read 31288 times.

Quoting comair25 (Reply 223):
Last known radar reports puts the plane around FL350, I highly doubt anyone was going to get a text or call out. And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact.
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27

~40 minutes to loss of data, is very close to official reports as far as flight time, track, and position.

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:23:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-09 19:24:46 and read 31073 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 248):
Widebodies can land at MTOW if needed

Point taken. I was merely pointing out that there is no manufacturing requirement (AFAIK) for fuel dumping - just widebodies are more likely to be able to do so.
The plane in question could, which is consistent with the discovered "oil slicks". Could be wishful thinking though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 19:26:50 and read 30727 times.

Last three FR24 headings are 25 28 and 40.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2014-03-09 19:27:36 and read 30726 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 248):
Widebodies can land at MTOW if needed. Max landing wieght is for safe *routine* operation. If you need to land, doing so at MTOW runs the risk of damage to the aircraft, but it is still quite possible.

Yes, landing over MLW just requires some extensive checks before the aircraft can take off again, although any pilot would try to dump some fuel at least if possible for the reduced fire risk.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2014-03-09 19:28:43 and read 30439 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 240):
Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket.

But if you think of how this would play out, e.g. two European backpackers on an extended vacation in SE Asia, now returning home, is not all that unusual. Not sure whether immigration authorities have access to airline reservation systems, but I have never been asked to show a return ticket when traveling in Southeast Asia.

I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China. From what I can find, to obtain a tourist visa you have to show evidence that you hold a round trip ticket (or presumably a ticket continuing beyond China).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-09 19:29:00 and read 30522 times.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):

Just as an example, on a business jet I get to fly the checklist including memory items for a dual engine failure are

1) thrust levers idle (this commands the FADEC to try a relight)
2) oxygen masks don (airplane at cruise will start loosing cabin pressure without engines providing pressure)
3) communications establish (this means talking between crew members so we can talk to each other)
Checklist then asks if an engine relight
If no, try a windmill start - if yes land as soon as practical
If still no go to ditch or forced landing procedures

Ditch procedure

Prepare passengers for landing
Notify ATC
Squawk 7700
Etc to landing

Notice that talking to ATC is number 7 on our list of things to do. The first job is take care of the airplane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: dirktraveller
Posted 2014-03-09 19:29:14 and read 30631 times.

Quoting infinit (Reply 217):
Malaysian Home Minister says the passengers who used stolen European passports were of Asian appearance

I was surprised that the two mysterious passengers were of Asian descent, clearly this does not look like the profile some have speculated in previous threads. I do questioned the minister's criticism on why immigration officials let those Asian descent individuals holding European passports admitted into their border.

Clearly, as far as the document are not flagged and appear authentic, what rights do the immigration officials had to refuse their entry. I don't think an official can lawfully detain or refuse someone with a legitimate document just because an Asian man was having a European passport. The real question is, actually how did his administration have no updates on the list of Interpol's red flags on stolen/missing documents, which lead to immigration officials believing that the passport was hold by its rightful owner? This resulted in two mysterious individuals admitted into their border
Or did I missed something here?

Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
My only question was why the terriorist group was so silience without taking responsibility?

IF and a big IF this was an act of terrorism, one of the most possible scenario I could think of was another Bojinka plot back in the 1990s. Terrorists (as far as we have heard), don't take claims for their dry-runs, but they will when their real intended attack have happened. I'm not spreading any conspiracy theories here, but somehow what we've heard so far about the stolen identities and the multi-connection flights does seem to share similarities with the perpetrators on the deadly terror plot.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: dragon6172
Posted 2014-03-09 19:30:27 and read 30484 times.

Has there been confirmation that the Malacca Strait is being searched or not?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-09 19:32:46 and read 29923 times.

If the last three heading turns were to the right, the outboard ailerons would be locked out during high speed flight at any rate, placing no loads on the wing tip and aileron section that was repaired, as far as my very limited knowledge on wing aerodynamics and structural loads is concerned.

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:38:46]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: kiwiinoz
Posted 2014-03-09 19:37:17 and read 29166 times.

Amazed that the Malacca Strait is a possibility. Surely it would have been tracked crossing back over the peninsula.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2014-03-09 19:37:28 and read 29179 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 251):
Quoting comair25 (Reply 223):
Last known radar reports puts the plane around FL350, I highly doubt anyone was going to get a text or call out. And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact.
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27

~40 minutes to loss of data

Don't rely too much on the loss of contact from FlightRadar24.
It just gathers VHF information and a lot of the information is supplied from equipment operated by enthusiasts.
The last contact was thru their WMKC station (Sultan Ismail Petra (Kota Bharu, Kelantan)) and most likely is a small VHF receive based on the airfield. It lost contact at about the normal distance for this type of equipment and the turn indicated could be just garbled data.
No ATC or Military radar data has been released to my knowledge

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-09 19:39:16 and read 28724 times.

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 257):

Just because they don't look like the ethnicity of the country on the passport, doesn't make them suspicious...

And, at least in America, you don't have many rights when crossing the international border. Border agents have wide discretion, now if they over step reasonable bounds on a consistent basis, congress can get involved.

I imagine it is very similar in SE Asia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2014-03-09 19:40:58 and read 28372 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 57):
Quoting rdu2sfo (Reply 55):Agreed - there has to be significant information at this stage that is not public. BUT it still makes no sense to search both sides of the peninsula. Either you know that plane flew over land or you don't.I wonder too why the information regarding the military radar and the plane possibly turning back is so ambiguous. The authorities should know whether it turned back or not, unless the plane disintegrated in which case they should know the debris location pretty well.
Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 88):
Quoting rampart (Reply 74):I wonder if a land impact would be registered. Seismographs are probably common in the region.I wouldn't be surprised if defense-related sensors of some sort actually registered - or were capable of detecting - an impact or catastrophe of this nature, on land and/or sea. The issue that arises is agencies or governments revealing their capability, should such info become public.
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 163):
The travel agency would be well aware of the cover story given by these two, but I'm sure we're not going to be privy to it as the authorities doubtless want to keep it close to their vest.I suspect that a lot of material is being withheld at the moment in the hope that if this is terrorism the terrorists can be caught. Like how the ATF withheld that they had quickly found an axle with the VIN tag for the Ryder truck carrying the bomb in the 1993 WTC bombing. That was an amazing piece of police work, allowing them to quickly identify it as a Ryder truck and where it was last rented. That the guy who rented it was stupid enough to claim it was stolen and demand his deposit back led to prompt arrests and an enormous break in the case that otherwise wouldn't have happened, and the break certainly wouldn't have happened if the ATF had announced what it had found


There may indeed a lot more known when and where this flight may have ended up in the water but their sources. This event occurred in a area of some border and territorial disputes. Various governments, including the USA via the Navy and/or the CIA won't want to let anyone know their locations or even being there. That may all mean slow passing of info to the public.
As the last quote from another post noted, there may be information withheld to protect the evidence and the investigation so if a criminal or terrorism act, criminal prosecution can take place. You may not want to have scavengers looking for remains of the a/c, especially metal from it or even personal belongings to make money on. One has to wonder too if some of the wrong info put out early on were part of intentional distractions to protect any investigation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-09 19:42:10 and read 28055 times.

Quoting rdu2sfo (Reply 230):
I would also note from this Times article that it appears samples were taking from that "oil" slick for testing. That would suggest that there was some actual non-naturally occurring fluid in the pictures of the slick that have been posted.

The nytimes.com article had the one and only photo of the "slick" I have seen. A poster on a previous part of this thread who is a marine scientist said it appeared to be a cyanobacteria bloom, a phenomenon that occurs in the area at this time of the year.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: dampfnudel
Posted 2014-03-09 19:42:56 and read 28090 times.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 239):
perhaps i'm overlooking something obvious, but what makes you say that?

Since 9/11, passengers with one-way tickets are scrutinized more so any smart terrorist today would get a round trip ticket.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-09 19:45:00 and read 27864 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 153):
People are going on and on about the stolen passports and many have implied that they "chose" the KUL-PEK on purpose.

If they were simply people trying to get into the EU as some believe, maybe the flight from KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH/FRA was cheaper to fly from Malaysia than from Thailand.

This is under the assumption that they were simply passengers and not linked to terrorism.
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 163):
I think it's a fair bet that some nefarious activity is involved with those two. The holders of two passports stolen a year apart end up walking into a Pattaya travel agency together for one-way tickets to two different destinations but want the same itinerary until they get to Amsterdam, and they will be departing the next day from a different country 800 miles away?
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 163):
The travel agency would be well aware of the cover story given by these two, but I'm sure we're not going to be privy to it as the authorities doubtless want to keep it close to their vest.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 207):
Whoever they were, they choose the wrong flight...
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 207):
And id like to know about this agency in pattaya, thats the issuer but are they also the one that sold the ticket?

I think the fact that the two travellers were on CZ tickets to CPH and FRA via a circuitous route suggests that they were actually trying to get to the booked destinations or at least into the EU. Checking Expedia just now, I find that if I want to travel from KUL to CPH/FRA next Saturday (ie same day of the week as the pair we are discussing, and with almost last-minute booking) then the same itinerary on CZ code-shares comes up as the cheapest option by some AUD300 for CPH, and marginally cheaper than a UL one-stop to FRA.

I don't find the Uighur (or other) terrorism on a CZ codeshare explanation at all convincing. If you are going to strike at China you would make certain that you were going to bring down a Chinese airliner, and you would also claim responsibility.

If we view the pair as potential illegal immigrants or refugees, it is a reasonable hypothesis that they contacted people smugglers in Malaysia who offer to provide each of them with an EU passport (previously stolen in Thailand) and tickets to their destination. The travel agency in Pattaya may have taken walk-in bookings from the people-smuggling network, but it is equally possible that they are the ticket issuer for a travel website. The pair would not even have to be known to each other in this scenario - the sequential ticket numbers would be explained by the people smugglers making online reservations for the cheapest travel to the preferred destination.

So I think they may just have been unlucky to get on this flight.

I don't know whether we will hear more detail on the tickets & travel agent quickly from the Malaysian authorities. IIRC news about the stolen passports came to light on Sunday, and someone on a.net posted the reservation details the same day. It could have taken hours before this information was picked up by the Malaysian police and intelligence service. Can you imagine how hard it would be on any day of the week, let alone Sunday, for them to have enquiries made by Thai police in Pattaya? And once the trail of video evidence from KUL and travel agency interviews in Pattaya is put together, the authorities will presumably be trying to follow up on any criminal or terrorist network.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-09 19:45:40 and read 27895 times.

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 257):
I was surprised that the two mysterious passengers were of Asian descent, clearly this does not look like the profile some have speculated in previous threads. I do questioned the minister's criticism on why immigration officials let those Asian descent individuals holding European passports admitted into their border.

I was born in India, have a very German name, and a US passport and citizenship. Would you have me denied boarding?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: dragon6172
Posted 2014-03-09 19:47:06 and read 27415 times.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 260):
Amazed that the Malacca Strait is a possibility. Surely it would have been tracked crossing back over the peninsula.

This is what I thought as well. Then I began to wonder if the difference in the initial reports of time was the difference between two events. Meaning at 40 minutes, over the Gulf of Thailand, the transponder was turned off and at the 2 hour mark, somewhere over the Malacca Strait, radar contact was lost.

This however adds a level of conspiracy and confusion to the matter. Just trying to come up with a reason to why searching the other side of the peninsula is an option.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2014-03-09 19:47:59 and read 27347 times.

With satellite technology, can they help any? I would think it would be of some help.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-09 19:48:45 and read 27116 times.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 261):
It lost contact at about the normal distance for this type of equipment and the turn indicated could be just garbled data.

So how does flightradar24 do ADSB tracking of aircraft farther out in the gulf? Also, I believe it was the Chinese who reported the turn.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 19:50:46 and read 26708 times.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 261):
Don't rely too much on the loss of contact from FlightRadar24.
It just gathers VHF information and a lot of the information is supplied from equipment operated by enthusiasts.
The last contact was thru their WMKC station (Sultan Ismail Petra (Kota Bharu, Kelantan)) and most likely is a small VHF receive based on the airfield. It lost contact at about the normal distance for this type of equipment and the turn indicated could be just garbled data.
No ATC or Military radar data has been released to my knowledge

I don't rely on it, that's why I said it matches official reports. If it did not match, I wouldn't use it to illustrate the flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2014-03-09 19:51:08 and read 26815 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang

The only problem with that theory is that this is a Malaysian airline, not a Chinese one, and Malaysia is a Muslim country.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Markam
Posted 2014-03-09 19:51:46 and read 27105 times.

Interesting article on The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-airlines-flight-mh370-black-box

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-09 19:52:10 and read 26555 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 267):

Is your passport reported stolen?  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: barney captain
Posted 2014-03-09 19:52:36 and read 26647 times.

It seems highly unlikely that a bomb or wing separation at altitude took place - the debris field would be massive and easy to spot. Imagine throwing a hand full of confetti in the air - it would flutter down everywhere.

No, I tend to believe that the a/c came down intact - somehow, someway. The images from ValueJet in the everglades come to mind. The sudden loss of data reporting from ACARS and the transponder is baffling however.

Hoping for the best  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-09 19:57:44 and read 25872 times.

Quoting flylku (Reply 195):

It surprises me that the primary returns from the various radar systems have not shed more light (so we are told). In 2000 I was once flying over West Virginia in a Piper Tri-Pacer (single engine, metal frame covered in fabric) when the transponder failed. We turned it off and asked Washington Center for flight following based on the primary return. They reported that they saw us! If they could see us what would the primary return of a 777 look like? Even if it disintegrated in flight, pieces of the wreckage would be larger than the radar signature of our little Tri-Pacer.

All this is true, but you have to assume:
- Radar coverage.
- Radar manning.
- Recording of radar data.

Any number of things could have happened that made radar data unavailable.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 202):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 193):
However if the repair was done according to Boeing specs and certified correct, the wing would be at least as strong as when the plane came off the showroom floor.

Say, if there was a major issue with that wing. Let's say part of it broke off, could it sever communications completely and immediately that nothing related to the planes' systems could be communicated automatically or by the pilots?

I can't see how. There are no antennas or radios on the wings. They're all in and on the fuselage.

Quoting specks159 (Reply 203):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 199):
Furthermore, the 777 has roll control from three sources: outboard aileron, inboard aileron and spoilers. So even without the outer aileron, roll control could be maintained.

Hypothetically, if the wingtip were to fall off, lock the outboard aileron, and then drain all of the hydraulic fluid in the area, is the hydraulic system on the 777 such that it would isolate the area and keep system pressure up for the rest of the plane? Or could that possible cause a UA232 like loss of hydraulic control?

Unlikely. Independent hydraulic systems and hydraulic fuses would preclude this.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 210):
Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 176):
This is with some safety margins I would assume?

The way I was always taught was that those distances were calculated under perfect conditions with test pilots performing them. The captain had a lot of hours so he could probably get close to those numbers.

Perfect conditions, sure. But there's still a 30% margin and an assumption of 50ft height at the threshold, meaning if you're talking actual length of asphalt rolled on even a "lesser" pilot will at least manage the quoted numbers.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 213):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 183):
No worries. Fuel dumping is only needed if the maximum take-off weight exceeds the maximum landing weight by a considerable margin, and this really only happens with wide bodies.

i was under the impression planes landing overweight was perfectly doable, it would just mean checks before the plane can be used again.

Doable, yes. Advisable, no. Unless the plane is on fire or something and you need to get on the ground ASAP, dumping fuel is much safer than risking an overweight landing, meaning faster than usual with possible tyre damage apart from possible structural damage.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 231):
Further to the damaged starboard wing failure scenario, and out of curiousity, if the aircraft rolled to the right, because of increased drag and reduced lift owing to wing tip failure, would the Flight Software logic come into play and apply rudder input to port (left) side to compensate for the asymetric configuration, or does this scenario only apply to engine out scenario.

I don't think so. In any case there are three sources of roll control already. Two sets of ailerons and spoilers.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 255):
I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China. From what I can find, to obtain a tourist visa you have to show evidence that you hold a round trip ticket (or presumably a ticket continuing beyond China).

Since 2013, citizens of most (all?) EU countries can enter certain cities in China, including PEK, for 72 hours without a visa as long as they have a departing ticket within the time frame.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-09 19:58:10 and read 26149 times.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 275):

Quick Electrical power loss... Anyone know what the RAT powers on the 777?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 19:58:19 and read 26212 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 249):

In terms of mobilized search crews/planes/ships - any ideas on how the number and capabilities of these resources add up? Are they overwhelmed with the sheer amount of area to search, or are the available resources more than adequate?

I was wondering this myself. It seems there should be more than adequate equipment. But who is coordinating the activities? Too many cooks spoil the broth. Is it the Malaysian or the Vietnamese?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 255):
I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China. From what I can find, to obtain a tourist visa you have to show evidence that you hold a round trip ticket (or presumably a ticket continuing beyond China).

Not if you are transiting or are visiting for 72hrs. Besides they had a ticket going to AMS anyway.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 19:59:50 and read 26143 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 255):
I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China.

Also, I was referring to them only booking a one way, presumably out of Southeast Asia (assuming they were going back home to Europe). I would also remind you China is not in Southeast Asia.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-09 20:05:36 and read 25341 times.

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 268):
Meaning at 40 minutes, over the Gulf of Thailand, the transponder was turned off and at the 2 hour mark, somewhere over the Malacca Strait, radar contact was lost.

How could they be over the Malacca Strait? A) Check a few posts above, I posted for those Geographically challenged a map of where the aircraft lost contact and where the Malacca Strait is or B) Check on Google Maps where the Malacca Strait is before making ill-informed comments like the one you made.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: tharanga
Posted 2014-03-09 20:10:37 and read 24187 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
My only question was why the terriorist group was so silience without taking responsibility

AI182 and PA103 didn't have, I don't think, credible and quick claims of responsibility.

I don't see any particular reason to favor a hypothesis of sabotage here over any other hypothesis, but I don't take the lack of a call of responsibility as meaningful either way.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: WSTAKL
Posted 2014-03-09 20:11:06 and read 24319 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 280):

Man, give it rest will you. I don't see the red lettering 'Forum Moderator' next to your name but you sure are acting like one! People don't have to read an entire 7 threads of what is essentially speculation to be involved in this discussion.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: dirktraveller
Posted 2014-03-09 20:11:53 and read 24225 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 267):
I was born in India, have a very German name, and a US passport and citizenship. Would you have me denied boarding?
Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 262):
Just because they don't look like the ethnicity of the country on the passport, doesn't make them suspicious...

I do apologise if I'm misleading both of you suggesting that everyone of Asian descent having a western name and passport is subject to suspiscion. I myself agree with Web500's statement that having a passport from a country that doesn't match someone's ethnicity DOES NOT constitute sufficient grounds for suspiscion.
Mind you, I myself have a western name and an Asian face, holding a passport from an Asian country.

I would have not certainly denied you boarding N328KF just because of that, as long as these individuals present a legitimate document to support their identity.

What I am trying to say was what right does the minister have to simply say as I quote from the news article:

“I am still perturbed. Can’t these immigration officials think? Italian and Austrian (passport holders) but with Asian faces,”

Clearly, I do agree with both of your statement that if someone does not match the ethnicity of the country's passport they are holding, that does not mean they're suspicious. Which is why I disagreed with his opinion and questioned why such remarks or criticism should be drawn to the immigration officials.

I don't think the border patrol agency should be in total blame, considering they could not just detain or refuse entry to individuals just because they are of Asian descent, holding passport of a European country under a western name.

The real question he should be asking is, as I said in previous reply, how did the minister's administration completely missed two passports that have been in Interpol red flag for being stolen/missing.

Hope this clear up my stand on the passport and ethnicity issue, and I am sorry if I have confused both of you.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-09 20:13:33 and read 23943 times.

This is a real tragedy for all the families so my heart goes out to them. The bio on the pilot indicated that this guy was a pure aviator with 18K + flight hours. I have no doubt that he was probably one of their finest captains and would have done everything to save the plane. Its also tragic that its the first major accident of a 777 a plane we all love.

I don't think its terrorism just because no one has claimed credit and there isn't a real motive for any group to do this. I don't think the passports are nearly as suspicious as you guys do. If you've been to 3rd world countries you know these things are frequently stolen and very often used for illegal immigrants. The two consecutive tickets were probably just for a man and woman trying to sneak into Europe or something. Even though the end destinations were different, I think this is done on purpose. If you're suicidal there is no reason to hide your identity unless you have a record. They're going to find you on security vids anyway.

Its also just really hard to pull off an attack now. No one has been successful since 9/11.

The lack of a Mayday or ACARs in my opinion seems to indicate a structural failure that lead to a quick breakup. They probably are just looking in the wrong place right now. The "turn" on radar might have been a debris field or the plane yawing. I'm still hoping the plane had its transponder turned off and got hijacked to north korea or something but that looks less and less likely as time passes.

Anyone know anything about the center fuel tank on the 777? Its not inerted AFAIK. Looks more like TWA800 than anything else.

[Edited 2014-03-09 20:15:44]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Senchingo
Posted 2014-03-09 20:17:45 and read 23269 times.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 277):

Quick Electrical power loss... Anyone know what the RAT powers on the 777?

It generates about 7.5kva and powers the center hydraulic systems, some backup hydraulic systems, flight control systems and the FMC if i'm not mistaken

Brgds/Sen

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-09 20:18:08 and read 22997 times.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 272):
Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 272):
Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang

The only problem with that theory is that this is a Malaysian airline, not a Chinese one, and Malaysia is a Muslim country.
Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 272):
Quoting celestar (Reply 220):
I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang

The only problem with that theory is that this is a Malaysian airline, not a Chinese one, and Malaysia is a Muslim country.

Unless there was an act of Martyrdom...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-09 20:19:27 and read 23078 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 284):
Its also just really hard to pull off an attack now. No one has been successful since 9/11.

There have been at least twelve hijackings since 9/11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings#2000s

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 284):
The lack of a Mayday or ACARs in my opinion seems to indicate a structural failure that lead to a quick breakup.

Not necessarily. AF447 did not make a distress call either. Communication is not a priority if the situation is not stable.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-09 20:21:14 and read 24702 times.

Hi All,

Part 8 has been created. Please continue the conversation in that thread, which can be found here MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation) .

All posts after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Regards,
Pat


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