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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-10 03:29:12 and read 79652 times.

Due to length part 8 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 9.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. Enjoy the forums!


Regards and thanks so much for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 03:33:12 and read 79867 times.

Looking at the photos of suspected debris from MH370 I ask why arent those SAR guys able to make a photo thats better than with a 1999 cellphone?
Can someone please give them a decent 200 $ camera with a tele lens to add to their multi-million $ plane?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 03:37:02 and read 79628 times.

Quoting na (Reply 1):

Looking at the photos of suspected debris from MH370 I ask why arent those SAR guys able to make a photo thats better than with a 1999 cellphone?
Can someone please give them a decent 200 $ camera with a tele lens to add to their multi-million $ plane?

Won't they have to have to send a ship or helicopter to investigate anyway? I imagine their job is to scan with binoculars and mark one eyeballs and taking pictures is secondary.

Also, even at 1000 feet, you need quite a telephoto lens to make things clear from a moving aircraft.

[Edited 2014-03-10 03:38:06]

[Edited 2014-03-10 03:42:52]

[Edited 2014-03-10 03:49:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: mila
Posted 2014-03-10 03:50:31 and read 78530 times.

According to Swedish media now one of the PAX that was traveling on a stolen passport has been identified.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 03:51:08 and read 78537 times.

This whole thing is mind-boggling. They could find the AF crash site after a couple of days in the middle of a vast Ocean, yet the MH aircraft supposedly went down relatively close to land and nothing can be found.

It feels like the Malaysian government is hiding something...

Nothing can be ruled out... some theories more likely than others. Maybe the false passports are just a coincidence? The passengers were booked onto PEK-Europe flights so why would they attack a plane on the first leg of their journey? Unless whatever they had detonated early?

It is frustrating... and we are not involved parties here... The families, friends and colleagues of all those poor people on the flight must be beyond distraught right now... I cannot imagine how it must feel. They need find the wreckage, just to give them that confirmation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 03:53:57 and read 78340 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
It feels like the Malaysian government is hiding something...

This begs the question why they would want to hide something.

In any case assets from six (?) different countries are searching, and several of these countries are engaged in minor territorial spats with each other (Vietnam, The Philippines and PRC over the Spratly Islands for example). They're not enemies but they're not always the best of friends either. Meaning I don't think they could all hide something.

[Edited 2014-03-10 03:54:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 03:55:25 and read 78155 times.

Thoughts to the family and friends of those aboard MH370.

My theories are in order of likelihood: 1.) Terrorism 2.) Suicide 3.) Shootdown 4.) Mechanical Failure.

As to where she is... well all I can say is that even my workmates who mock my interest in aviation are intrigued and worried about this situation.

A commercial jet does not do this. Ever. In the history of aviation.

You know, sadly, my mum was the first to notify me of this and I saw it on my mobile, didn't say the aircraft type but when I saw the headline for some reason my blood ran cold and I though, oh no, the 777's time is up.

And sure enough after clicking the link there it was. A part of me still hopes it has landed on a remote island and everyone is well.

Please return to us 9M-MRO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 03:56:39 and read 77932 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Also, even at 1000 feet, you need quite a telephoto lens to make things clear from a moving aircraft.

Thats why I wrote that they need a good camera.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Won't they have to have to send a ship or helicopter to investigate anyway? I imagine their job is to scan with binoculars

In the first place, sure. But if they have detected debris it should be expected that they fly around it a the lowest hight possible (whats that for a decent SAR plane, 50 meters, 30?) and take enough GGOD pictures so no ship is wasted in the wrong location.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: ah414211
Posted 2014-03-10 03:57:14 and read 77955 times.

Sounds like the floating object thought to be a life raft was actually a cable reel :


BREAKING [6:24pm]: Floating object spotted in ocean turns out to be cable reel and not life raft.


Also, they're saying the analysis of the oil slick has determined that it ISN'T related to MH370.

Link: http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraf...ssing--says-airline-023820132.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-10 03:57:21 and read 77931 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):

thank you for your reply. It seems extremely unlikely that they'd lose all comms, therefore- an incredible series of events would be necessary. But then, most accidents are...

does anybody know how busy the sea is towards borneo or the eastern part of Malaysia? How good might the primary radar coverage be there?

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:06:08]

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:07:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 03:59:28 and read 77755 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 6):
A commercial jet does not do this. Ever. In the history of aviation.

Several airliners have been lost for quite a while before being found. AF447 to quote a relatively recent example. There are even jet airliners that have never been found, such as Varig flight 967.

I have little doubt we will find out what happened eventually, but it may take a while.

Quoting na (Reply 7):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Won't they have to have to send a ship or helicopter to investigate anyway? I imagine their job is to scan with binoculars

In the first place, sure. But if they have detected debris it should be expected that they fly around it a the lowest hight possible (whats that for a decent SAR plane, 50 meters, 30?) and take enough GGOD pictures so no ship is wasted in the wrong location.

Fair point.

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:04:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-10 04:06:40 and read 76960 times.

I believe it is ICAO standard for all systems used for air traffic services to record & archive their data for a minimum of 30 days. Based on this document I found, it seems that not all countries are always in compliance: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1934/20100...SurveillanceDataLetterOfIntent.pdf

Does anyone know whether it is likely that primary radar being used in the area was not recording?

It seems to me likely that military radar would be more accurate and higher powered, but what do we know about primary radar coverage in the area in general? I imagine the military wouldn't rush to share information with the public.

I think primary radar gives SAR teams the best hope of finding the plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: chieft
Posted 2014-03-10 04:10:55 and read 76540 times.

I think all thoughts and comments are pure speculation. There is not even a wreck, debris etc, to say nothing of FDR and VR.

What is available are some radar data showing that the aircraft disappeared. A loss of engine power would at least make the aircraft gliding, which then would have been seen on radar. An example for such an event was some years ago an A330 from Canada gliding to an alternate airport safely.

What I am wondering about is, why the FDR, and possibly the VR, data are not sent to the maintenance basis live and constantly. Technically it shouldn't be a problem. A loss of a FDR would then not be so dramatic.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-10 04:12:09 and read 76278 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 11):
Does anyone know whether it is likely that primary radar being used in the area was not recording?

As I wrote in the last thread - primary radar usually has a range of less than 60nm, so it would be my guess that the aircraft had left the range of a PSR if there was one on the east coast...

As an ATC I would find it unlikely that the upper airspace used PSR data... It would be almost exclusively SSR. I have worked upper airspace and I never had primary radar there...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 04:12:13 and read 76314 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Several airliners have been lost for quite a while before being found. AF447 to quote a relatively recent example. There are even jet airliners that have never been found, such as Varig flight 967.I have little doubt we will find out what happened eventually, but it may take a while.

They found bits of 447 within days. No sign of 370 yet and no ACARS or other data to go off. Please tell me what other modern aircraft has ended up in this situation? As for 967, I can';t consider that a modern airliner by any respect. And SAR was not quite what it is today. As some others have put it, we can locate a $200 phone anywhere in the world but not a 250,000,000 airliner.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 04:12:26 and read 76330 times.

From the previous thread by Windshear:

Quote:
The plane is missing and if the satelite could not detect it crashing, why would it detect it blowing up? The fireball is usually not very big on smaller improvised deviced like a suicide vest, the fire would be instant inside the cabin, but would be out already at hull breach and in flight breakup... This does not rule out terrorism.

The NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) has the capability to detect intercontinental missile launches based on their infrared signature in the upper atmosphere. The NORAD should be able to detect if a plane explodes at a high alitude due to the fireball and the infrared signature it is producing. Due to the atmosphere, it is not possible to detect small explosions at ground level from space using this technology.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-10 04:15:24 and read 76098 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
Nothing can be ruled out... some theories more likely than others. Maybe the false passports are just a coincidence? The passengers were booked onto PEK-Europe flights so why would they attack a plane on the first leg of their journey? Unless whatever they had detonated early?

This has been discussed to extenuation here. With an European passport AND a flight bound to Europe you don't need a pre-arranged visa to transit through PEK. Which means that your passport would have never been checked by Chinese authorities in a consulate (where a fake passport would be easier spotted than in a check-in counter in KUL) before entering China... or a Chinese aircraft.

In the terrorism hypothesis, why wait for your second leg? Going through another airport (additional security, screenings) would increase the chances that you are caught.

Also, if you want to attack Chinese interests... it would make more sense to do it in a KUL-PEK than in a PEK-Europe flight. PEK-Europe would be completely overland (higher probability of emergency landing with a good outcome) and likely a higher percentage of non-Chinese on board in a flight from Malaysia than to Europe. In the KUL flight the overwhelming majority of passengers had Chinese passports or were ethnic Chinese even if holding Western passports.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
There are even jet airliners that have never been found, such as Varig flight 967.

Interesting. Apparently it has been the only major aircraft disaster of which not a single trace has never been found. Still, this was in the middle of the Pacific... not comparable to the Gulf of Thailand.

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:17:31]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 04:17:16 and read 75884 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 6):
You know, sadly, my mum was the first to notify me of this and I saw it on my mobile, didn't say the aircraft type but when I saw the headline for some reason my blood ran cold and I though, oh no, the 777's time is up.

My blood ran cold when I heard the news and would have done no matter what the aircraft type was. The way this thread is going, is that people seem to think this is far more awful than anything that has happened before because it involves the 777.

Human lives have been lost and it doesn't matter one iota to the families of those involved what the aircraft type was, nor should it matter to us.

The fact of the matter is that a plane went down and we need to know why it happened and how it could have happen. Questions that should answered irrespectively. Yes, it is unlikely it was a mechanical failure but believe it or not the 777 like any other aircraft type is not invincible. No aircraft is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-10 04:19:20 and read 75649 times.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraf...ssing--says-airline-023820132.html

New report of debris somewhere else.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 04:20:12 and read 75348 times.

In the last thread, satellite imagery was suggested in order to find wreckage faster.

In the search for Steve Fossett, Amazon's "Mechanical Turk" was employed to do a crowd-based review of recent satellite imagery. In natural disasters, the crowds also help with mapping still usable roads based on very recent imagery.

I wondered about this earlier...

GeoEye's imagery has a resolution of 0.41 meters, which should be enough debris found in AF447. But here, no debris has been found at all...


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 04:21:10 and read 75327 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 15):
The NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) has the capability to detect intercontinental missile launches based on their infrared signature in the upper atmosphere. The NORAD should be able to detect if a plane explodes at a high alitude due to the fireball and the infrared signature it is producing. Due to the atmosphere, it is not possible to detect small explosions at ground level from space using this technology.

ICBM apogee is roughly 100 times higher than an airliner isn't it? 700 miles or so?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-10 04:21:51 and read 75322 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16):

Is connecting luggage scanned again upon connection?

if not, then I'd argue that might in fact make the second leg more plausible than the first. Why bother with a connecting ticket to AMS, then onwards?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: PhilV
Posted 2014-03-10 04:22:02 and read 75464 times.

Someone posted this link in another Forum:
http://www.tienphong.vn/xa-hoi/truc-...eu-manh-vo-gan-vung-tau-684926.tpo

Is this new?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 04:23:00 and read 75076 times.

Quoting chieft (Reply 12):
What I am wondering about is, why the FDR, and possibly the VR, data are not sent to the maintenance basis live and constantly. Technically it shouldn't be a problem. A loss of a FDR would then not be so dramatic.

This has been covered. The expense for such a system would be huge and the safety benefit would be marginal, if any. Not economically defensible.

Some airlines have ACARS transmissions on a continual basis. It seems MH did not. It is a paid service.

It is also important to note that the job of the DFDR and CVR are not there to help in rescue and recovery. They are there to solve the crash and provide data to prevent future accidents.

Quoting 77west (Reply 14):
As some others have put it, we can locate a $200 phone anywhere in the world but not a 250,000,000 airliner.

The logistical issues are somewhat different as phones have to be rather close to cell towers and they don't move at Mach 0.85.

Even so, most airliners do report position, speed, altitude and heading every second with ADS-B. If such reporting ends for some reason at cruise altitude there's no magical way to extrapolate more than a rough position estimate. The number of variables is quite high.

If you think about it, no lives would have been saved by immediately locating the wreckage of, say, AF447 within a few hours? If this aircraft has crashed in the ocean, immediate location would not have saved anyone either.


If a new technology can potentially save lives, I'm all for it. However easier location of wreckage has a very marginal potential benefit when it comes to saving lives. It could be argued that all you're doing is making planes more expensive and complex for the benefit of speeding up a multi-year investigation by a few days. Maybe. In extremely rare cases.

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:26:41]

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:27:04]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 04:23:18 and read 75077 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 6):
My theories are in order of likelihood: 1.) Terrorism 2.) Suicide 3.) Shootdown 4.) Mechanical Failure.

Why terrorism as a 1st reason? I personally dismiss this theory. All the speculations on terrorism are centred on Uyghur muslims living in XinJiang province who currently have issues with the central Chinese government; however, why the h**k would they target the flag carrier of a Muslim country with presumably passengers sharing the same faith as them.

I would've considered terrorism as a possible route to explore if this was an Air China flight, for instance.

The fake passport holders are in my opinion mere illegal immigrants/drug mules bound for Europe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 04:23:46 and read 77024 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 20):
ICBM apogee is roughly 100 times higher than an airliner isn't it? 700 miles or so?

Yes, but my understanding is that the launch is detected shortly after the launch at a significanlyt lower altitude than the apogee. I am not sure if 11 km is enough, though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-10 04:24:01 and read 77189 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 13):
As I wrote in the last thread - primary radar usually has a range of less than 60nm, so it would be my guess that the aircraft had left the range of a PSR if there was one on the east coast...

The implication is, then, that by turning off ADS-B and transponder, they could effectively disappear and be anywhere in the Gulf, as long as they did not get within 60nm of the coast?

That does not bode too well for the SAR efforts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 04:25:55 and read 79664 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 17):
My blood ran cold when I heard the news and would have done no matter what the aircraft type was. The way this thread is going, is that people seem to think this is far more awful than anything that has happened before because it involves the 777. Human lives have been lost and it doesn't matter one iota to the families of those involved what the aircraft type was, nor should it matter to us. The fact of the matter is that a plane went down and we need to know why it happened and how it could have happen. Questions that should answered irrespectively. Yes, it is unlikely it was a mechanical failure but believe it or not the 777 like any other aircraft type is not invincible. No aircraft is.

I am terribly sorry for the perceived unfeeling behaviour. Of course any accidents is too much, weather a C182 or an A380.

I simply meant that for some reason I knew it was a 777 before I even read it; I just had a really horrible feeling and that's saying something coming from me.

We are so used to accident reports of classic 737's, the odd A320, that a major accident with a big jet is pretty rare and for some reason it really just struck me hard; I have had many, many flights on all variants of 777s and so I consider it a good friend and thus with this incident it really has struck home.

Of course my first reaction to any reported accident is always, Oh God no..." no matter what the plane or airline.

My apologies If I have offended anyone.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 04:25:57 and read 79663 times.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 22):
Is this new?

The sea sawdust is not new. I'm not sure about the small bright objects in the water. If they are not whitecaps...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 04:27:44 and read 79356 times.

Quoting michi (Reply 18):

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraf...ssing--says-airline-023820132.html

New report of debris somewhere else.

"60km southeast of Vung Tau, a coastal city in Vietnam"

That would be way off the current search area.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 04:28:20 and read 78797 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 26):
Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 13):
As I wrote in the last thread - primary radar usually has a range of less than 60nm, so it would be my guess that the aircraft had left the range of a PSR if there was one on the east coast...

The implication is, then, that by turning off ADS-B and transponder, they could effectively disappear and be anywhere in the Gulf, as long as they did not get within 60nm of the coast?

Primary radar can also be shipborne, and radar sites don't blanket the coast, or are always set right at the shore.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-10 04:28:27 and read 78928 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 21):
if not, then I'd argue that might in fact make the second leg more plausible than the first. Why bother with a connecting ticket to AMS, then onwards?

A ticket KUL-PEK would require a prearranged Visa in a Chinese consulate for an European passport holder. That would be more certainly more bothering than buying a ticket to AMS. It is not like someone planning to take down a plane is looking for the most affordable fare or missing two legs of the flight, but to take the least suspicious planning.

Anyway, IMO the connecting ticket to AMS and then to Denmark and Germany would likely mean refugees.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-10 04:32:45 and read 78051 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 26):
The implication is, then, that by turning off ADS-B and transponder, they could effectively disappear and be anywhere in the Gulf, as long as they did not get within 60nm of the coast?

Yes and no. The military have better tracking capabilites than us civvies ever would. But that's another kettle of fish. Maybe they weren't watching that particular part of the sky at that particular moment in time... i don't know.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 26):
That does not bode too well for the SAR efforts.

No, that makes us SAR blokes have a hard time choosing a spot to search, as is evidenced by the lack of results in the current SAR efforts. They must be tearing their hair out - I know I have before.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 04:32:46 and read 78135 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 23):
The logistical issues are somewhat different as phones have to be rather close to cell towers and they don't move at Mach 0.85.

Even so, most airliners do report position, speed, altitude and heading every second with ADS-B. If such reporting ends for some reason at cruise altitude there's no magical way to extrapolate more than a rough position estimate. The number of variables is quite high.

If you think about it, not lives would have been saved by immediately locating the wreckage of, say, AF447 within a few hours? If this aircraft has crashed in the ocean, immediate location would not have saved anyone either.

Working in IT, I actually do realize this but still think it stupid given our technology today. At this point I am sad to agree that saving lives is not really possible at this point but preventing future accidents could perhaps hold merit.

No matter what anyone says this is by no means a routine accident (Is there such a thing?) This is damn serious if you really stop to think about it.

A triple Seven missing for 3 days with NO sign at all of where it is, over a small sea with shallow water and many fishing boats and other population in the area.

I can't think of any other similar incidents recently.

447 was over 4km of water. Far offshore. Not the same.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 345tas
Posted 2014-03-10 04:34:00 and read 78122 times.

I think the fact one of the stolen passport holders has been identified but no further details are being released could *possibly* indicate that they require further investigation and *maybe* are not being ruled out yet as a factor in the incident.

Edit: or they could be waiting until family has been notified.

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:36:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: gr325
Posted 2014-03-10 04:34:54 and read 77784 times.

I am not entirely sure if this has been discussed.
I know the odds are very unlikely but would it be possible the aircraft has been hit by a meteor or other space debris?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-10 04:36:17 and read 77314 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
Primary radar can also be shipborne, and radar sites don't blanket the coast, or are always set right at the shore.

Sure, I am also familiar with those, but I know of no ATC unit using ship-borne PSR. I was responding entirely to the civilian aspect of the question.

As I wrote in the previous thread, with the advent of phased arrays/AESAs I find it hard to believe nothing was monitoring the skies...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 04:37:01 and read 77453 times.

Quoting gr325 (Reply 35):

I am not entirely sure if this has been discussed.
I know the odds are very unlikely but would it be possible the aircraft has been hit by a meteor or other space debris?

Welcome to the speculation club!
I'd give this a 0.0001% chance and it's already an overestimation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-10 04:38:51 and read 76969 times.

Quoting gr325 (Reply 35):

I am not entirely sure if this has been discussed.
I know the odds are very unlikely but would it be possible the aircraft has been hit by a meteor or other space debris?

It had been discussed with varying levels of tongue-in-cheek.

"Big sky" and all that, it would certainly be an incredibly improbable event.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 04:39:07 and read 77159 times.

Quoting redadeco (Reply 24):
Why terrorism as a 1st reason? I personally dismiss this theory. All the speculations on terrorism are centred on Uyghur muslims living in XinJiang province who currently have issues with the central Chinese government; however, why the h**k would they target the flag carrier of a Muslim country with presumably passengers sharing the same faith as them.

777 - 18 Years of pretty much trouble free operation, hence statistics show that airplane failure is low on the list. Pilot error, not likely at FL350 with the AP engaged. Not much reason to disengage AP like AF447 as pretty much perfect weather.

I simply put Terrorism above suicide as there have been very few fully documented cases of flight crew suicide on record.

Terrorism covers a large range from simple hijacking through to full on bombing and planned crashing.

Certainly perhaps the Boeing flight computers went haywire for no reason but again this would be a first right? As in first accident caused by software.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 04:39:16 and read 77212 times.

More information that one of the two passengers travelling under false identity has been identified:

http://my.news.yahoo.com/identity-on...-confirmed-says-igp-102952114.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 04:41:02 and read 76699 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 33):
Working in IT, I actually do realize this but still think it stupid given our technology today.

I've worked in IT most of my career and I agree with you but I can't really see an economically reasonable way to get around the issue.

The problem is of course that if you pull the plug on transmissions, as seems to have happened here, whatever whizz-bang comms technology you have becomes rather academic. If at this point your airliner is at cruise altitude and speed, your search radius is gigantic.

You can add extra redundant transmitters and this and that but if you're going to spend money on air safety there are other areas which are more deserving of investment.

Quoting 77west (Reply 33):
No matter what anyone says this is by no means a routine accident (Is there such a thing?) This is damn serious if you really stop to think about it.

A triple Seven missing for 3 days with NO sign at all of where it is, over a small sea with shallow water and many fishing boats and other population in the area.

I can't think of any other similar incidents recently.

Indeed. I was mystified 36 hours ago. Now it's just weird. I suppose we should be happy that some accidents nowadays are hard to solve since it implies that they didn't happen "easily."

Quoting gr325 (Reply 35):
I know the odds are very unlikely but would it be possible the aircraft has been hit by a meteor or other space debris?

As mentioned, certainly possible. However rather improbable.

Quoting 77west (Reply 39):
Pilot error, not likely at FL350 with the AP engaged

If everything is fine, no. However in a crisis, it is quite possible. For example, there was a China Airlines 747 SP * which suffered an engine out and ended up in a spin when the captain took the wrong actions. It landed missing some bits and pieces and eventually returned to service, permanently warped out of true.

Quoting 77west (Reply 39):
Not much reason to disengage AP like AF447 as pretty much perfect weather.

True. However there are malfunctions that could disengage the autopilot.

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:44:38]

* Edit to corrected the airline.


[Edited 2014-03-10 04:56:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 04:41:32 and read 76574 times.

Quoting gr325 (Reply 35):
I am not entirely sure if this has been discussed.
I know the odds are very unlikely but would it be possible the aircraft has been hit by a meteor or other space debris?

I had though of that today actually. Also, what about a drone, military or otherwise?

If this is the case I hope they find the bloody thing lodged in the mouth of a Trent 800 and jail the people responsible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Asiaflyer
Posted 2014-03-10 04:42:29 and read 76404 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 29):
That would be way off the current search area.


Makes sense. An aircraft can just not disappear, even if it is blown into pieces on 35000 ft altitude. There are too many items which floats in an aircraft. Once they will be able to find the crashsite, the picture will be clearer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2014-03-10 04:43:20 and read 76402 times.

One other terror possibility - a person on the ground crew (mechanic, baggage) at KUL placed a bomb at or near a fuel tank, critical structures to bring the a/c down. The bomb could be set to go off at a certain altitude or time and it went off just as planned, over water to delay finding out who did it. Their motivation could be something against the airline, wanting to hurt a symbol and connected with the government of Malaysia, or perverse Islamic faith belief.
I would suspect anyone who was involved with or anywhere near this a/c have been investigated to see if they had any connection to it's loss.

There are new reports of debris possibly connected with this being located, closer to the southern coast of Vietnam. Hopefully this is true and we can get closer to recover the bodies of the passengers and crew to bring closure to their families and to recover the recorders and key debris to figure out what happened with this a/c.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: wisborg
Posted 2014-03-10 04:43:42 and read 76255 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 31):
A ticket KUL-PEK would require a prearranged Visa in a Chinese consulate for an European passport holder.

Not correct - the tickets included flights to AMS within 72 hours, so would not require a prearranged visa - see http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cedk/eng/cs/vc/t1087002.htm

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: UALWN
Posted 2014-03-10 04:44:20 and read 75964 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16):
Still, this was in the middle of the Pacific...

Not really. Contact was lost 30 min after taking off from NRT.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 04:44:40 and read 75934 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):

Indeed. I was mystified 36 hours ago. Now it's just weird. I suppose we should be happy that some accidents nowadays are hard to solve since it implies that they didn't happen "easily."

We are on the same page here. I am checking for news every hour at least and every hour that passes my rational brain gets more upset by this. Firstly for the passengers and crew and their loved ones and secondly because none of it makes any damn sense.

A perfect example of how safe air travel has become that we now only end up with very perplexing and bizzare accidents.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: breiz
Posted 2014-03-10 04:46:42 and read 75610 times.

Thread part no. 9! And the B777 disappeared only 3 days ago.
I am amazed to see how much can be written out of nearly no information.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 04:46:42 and read 75762 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):

One other terror possibility - a person on the ground crew (mechanic, baggage) at KUL placed a bomb at or near a fuel tank, critical structures to bring the a/c down. The bomb could be set to go off at a certain altitude or time and it went off just as planned, over water to delay finding out who did it. Their motivation could be something against the airline, wanting to hurt a symbol and connected with the government of Malaysia, or perverse Islamic faith belief.
I would suspect anyone who was involved with or anywhere near this a/c have been investigated to see if they had any connection to it's loss.

Possible, but even in a "major boom" scenario, let's call it a TWA800 type explosion, you'd still get large bits and pieces in the water.

Quoting wisborg (Reply 45):


Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 31):
A ticket KUL-PEK would require a prearranged Visa in a Chinese consulate for an European passport holder.

Not correct - the tickets included flights to AMS within 72 hours, so would not require a prearranged visa - see http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cedk/eng/cs/vc/t1087002.htm

That was in fact the point of SCQ83's post. If you only have a ticket to PEK, you require a visa. However if you have a through ticket you don't.

Quoting breiz (Reply 48):
Thread part no. 9! And the B777 disappeared only 3 days ago.
I am amazed to see how much can be written out of nearly no information.

We do our best. 

If you want to see a lot text about not much data, keep a Twitter search for MH370 open. The volume of tweets is beyond ridiculous.

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:47:56]

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:51:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2014-03-10 04:47:15 and read 75615 times.

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 43):
Makes sense. An aircraft can just not disappear, even if it is blown into pieces on 35000 ft altitude. There are too many items which floats in an aircraft. Once they will be able to find the crashsite, the picture will be clearer.


Just have a look at this article about how little was found back from MI185:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...e-terrible-implications-for-mh370/

Now imagine that type of destruction at an unknown location in the sea...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-10 04:47:24 and read 75535 times.

Quoting redadeco (Reply 24):
Why terrorism as a 1st reason? I personally dismiss this theory. All the speculations on terrorism are centred on Uyghur muslims living in XinJiang province who currently have issues with the central Chinese government; however, why the h**k would they target the flag carrier of a Muslim country with presumably passengers sharing the same faith as them.

Al Qaeda have killed more muslims than "westerners" ! And they weren't collateral damage.

Has any report come out as to any "celebrities" on the passenger list. How easy is it for authorities to find out from life insurance companies if any pax had a recent very large policy issued etc?

I have asked twice already but none of the usual professionals here seem to have taken it up. If the 777 (and an MH one at that) almost came close to a crash due to flight control problems 9 years ago. Why isn't that as or more likely than some of the other scenarios being discussed? While that problem with the ADIRU was subsequently fixed. It took almost 10 years for it to show up on the 777. Maybe another issue with another system has now manifested itself with this crash.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-10 04:48:31 and read 74713 times.

Quoting na (Reply 7):
But if they have detected debris it should be expected that they fly around it a the lowest hight possible (whats that for a decent SAR plane, 50 meters, 30?) and take enough GGOD pictures so no ship is wasted in the wrong location.

So what does that tell you about the source and credibility of the alleged debris photos published so far. Hint - none of them are related to MH370. They range from greenhouses to cable reels.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 04:48:44 and read 74602 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 32):

No, that makes us SAR blokes have a hard time choosing a spot to search, as is evidenced by the lack of results in the current SAR efforts. They must be tearing their hair out - I know I have before.

From an amateur point of view, I was expecting this to be a rather straightforward SAR operation. As it is more or less agreed that it is very unlikely that the aircraft made it onto the seabed in one piece with the passengers still onboard, the search is for a field of debris or dozen of passengers in life rafts/life vests rather than a head or two popping out of the water or a 20ft nutshell. This might explain why we amateurs are so surprised.

Quoting michi (Reply 18):
http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraf...ssing--says-airline-023820132.html

New report of debris somewhere else.

I guess media are now beginning to clutch at straws. If they chase every piece of floatsam in the Gulf of Thailand or the South China Sea, they can just as well stop the whole search.

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:52:44]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-10 04:49:05 and read 74592 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 29):
"60km southeast of Vung Tau, a coastal city in Vietnam"

That would be way off the current search area.


Until now, we don't know nothing so far. The search found nothing.

However, this debris was seen more ore less under the planned flight path of MH370. It is more or less in the general direction MH370 was headed.

It shouldn't be a problem to check this debris real quick as it close to the harbor of Vung Tau, which looks like the HCMC harbor to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: j77w
Posted 2014-03-10 04:50:11 and read 74468 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 6):

A part of me still hopes it has landed on a remote island and everyone is well.

Please return to us, 9M-MRO.


    

I've been reading this thread almost hourly ever since this whole affair started. There've been some pretty solid arguments for - and against - all of the theories put forward. In the absence of any hard facts or evidence (as at the time of posting), I don't want to make any assumptions. I might be naive (though I'd like to think of it as "quietly hopeful"), but I'm with 77west on this one - no matter how increasingly unlikely.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of the passengers and crew of MH370 - not to mention the passengers and crew themselves.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 04:51:51 and read 74231 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
You can add extra redundant transmitters and this and that but if you're going to spend money on air safety there are other areas which are more deserving of investment.

I do realize this. Sattelite 'transmitters' all over the airframe would no work. A colleague asked, don't the black boxes talk to satellites? And I was like, um, no....

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
If everything is fine, no. However in a crisis, it is quite possible. For example, there was an Air China 747 which suffered an engine out and ended up in a spin when the captain took the wrong actions. It landed missing some bits and pieces and eventually returned to service, permanently warped out of true.

In all fairness the Air China example was a classic 747 with little if any automation compared to a 777-200ER that pretty much hardly ever demands manual control at altitude even in some rather interesting and serious malfunctions, including engine out.

That said if it all blew to hell and back perhaps manual control is what they did. God help them in that case at 2AM over a black Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-10 04:52:22 and read 74053 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
For example, there was an Air China 747 which suffered an engine out and ended up in a spin when the captain took the wrong actions. It landed missing some bits and pieces and eventually returned to service, permanently warped out of true.

It was a China Airlines 747 SP I think you are referring to. Don't mix up CA and CI. In theory their two "countries" are still in a civil war!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 04:55:39 and read 73445 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 57):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
For example, there was an Air China 747 which suffered an engine out and ended up in a spin when the captain took the wrong actions. It landed missing some bits and pieces and eventually returned to service, permanently warped out of true.

It was a China Airlines 747 SP I think you are referring to. Don't mix up CA and CI. In theory their two "countries" are still in a civil war!

Sorry oops! Forgot to double check. Yes I know the difference between Mainland China and Taiwan.

I've edited my post to correct the error.



[Edited 2014-03-10 04:57:56]

[Edited 2014-03-10 04:58:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 04:58:07 and read 73095 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 51):
Has any report come out as to any "celebrities" on the passenger list. How easy is it for authorities to find out from life insurance companies if any pax had a recent very large policy issued etc?

At least in Switzerland, there's a tax on any insurance that is deemed as investment (e.g. life insurance, or insuring a car or household effects). So the government could run the list of passengers/next of kin against the list of people who have bought life insurance.

But of course it's possible to buy life insurance for somebody totally unrelated. So-called "dead peasant insurance" is an example.

Quoting gr325 (Reply 35):
meteor

A meteor strike is possible... but extremely unlikely. If a meteor is able to strike an aircraft, I think NORAD would have this meteor already in its catalogues.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 05:00:50 and read 72339 times.

Quoting j77w (Reply 55):
I've been reading this thread almost hourly ever since this whole affair started. There've been some pretty solid arguments for - and against - all of the theories put forward. In the absence of any hard facts or evidence (as at the time of posting), I don't want to make any assumptions. I might be naive (though I'd like to think of it as "quietly hopeful"), but I'm with 77west on this one - no matter how increasingly unlikely.

Cheers J77W; a bit of hope goes a long way right? I am holding out hope until that (sadly) inevitable moment they hoist the vertical stab out of the sea onto a boat.

I am not going to be surprised when I see this on the morning News.

But I remain hopeful and that my favourite airliner will have the star role in the greatest Airliner "theft, conspiracy, secret landing" of all time.

If and when I see that always iconic image of the forlorn tail, I will not help but shed a tear first for the people affected and second for a real stallion of the skies that has finally succumbed to gravity.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-10 05:01:32 and read 72385 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 57):

Your memory is ok

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_006

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 345tas
Posted 2014-03-10 05:01:35 and read 72584 times.

I can't link because I'm on my phone but the Australian Broadcasting Corporation was reporting earlier that the 5 pax who failed to board are being investigated, despite their luggage being offloaded.

It is odd they haven't turned up yet, as there must be news editors all over the world absolutely foaming at the mouth for first bite of that story.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 05:02:10 and read 72621 times.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...-370-search-continues-live-updates

"China Xinhua News ✔ @XHNews
Follow
#Breaking: Local media: Tests reveal that the oil slick is not from missing Malaysia Airlines MH370 flight but actually a ship"

Truly mysterious.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: anfromme
Posted 2014-03-10 05:02:56 and read 72254 times.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 50):
Just have a look at this article about how little was found back from MI185:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...e-terrible-implications-for-mh370/

Now imagine that type of destruction at an unknown location in the sea...

That blog paints a pretty bleak picture, setting an expectation of hardly anything being recoverable.
However, about 73% of the wreckage (by weight) was recovered from MI185.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-10 05:04:23 and read 71683 times.

It turns out that the oil slick came from a ship, not the missing 777.

The search goes on...

Maritime Official: Oil Slicks Not from Missing Malaysia Airlines Plane

Quote:
Oil slicks off the coast of Malaysia were not from the missing Malaysia Airlines 777 that disappeared over two days ago, officials reported on Monday.

Officials in Vietnam reported a 12-mile or 20-kilometer-long oil slick that originally appeared to be from jet fuel. A maritime official from Malaysia said that lab tests showed that the oil is not, however, jet fuel......


.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 05:04:24 and read 71687 times.

I still think it went into the sea near IGARI waypoint. I don't think it went much farther than that area.

With the lack of info or debris, I am beginning to believe that somehow it hasn't crashed...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: YokoTsuno
Posted 2014-03-10 05:06:13 and read 71737 times.

Quoting gr325 (Reply 35):
I am not entirely sure if this has been discussed.
I know the odds are very unlikely but would it be possible the aircraft has been hit by a meteor or other space debris?
Has been discussed. Mid air landing into an Antonov 225 is however still open for discussion  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-10 05:07:31 and read 71643 times.

Quoting 345tas (Reply 62):
I can't link because I'm on my phone but the Australian Broadcasting Corporation was reporting earlier that the 5 pax who failed to board are being investigated, despite their luggage being offloaded.

Voilà

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-1...passengers-failed-to-board/5310874

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 05:08:02 and read 71390 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 66):
With the lack of info or debris, I am beginning to believe that somehow it hasn't crashed...

Really I so hope you are right.

I have a funny feeling about this one and I really hope she appears however unlikely. But seriously how long do we look for wreckage before accepting that it might have crashed but not anywhere near its flightpath?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: ben175
Posted 2014-03-10 05:10:15 and read 70878 times.

Oh my god. This is journalism at its absolute WORST.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/west...agedy/story-fnhocxo3-1226849027718

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 05:10:55 and read 70487 times.

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 67):
I am not entirely sure if this has been discussed.
I know the odds are very unlikely but would it be possible the aircraft has been hit by a meteor or other space debris?Has been discussed. Mid air landing into an Antonov 225 is however still open for discussion

First time for everything right?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-10 05:13:48 and read 70095 times.

Quoting ben175 (Reply 70):
Oh my god. This is journalism at its absolute WORST.

Ironic when the PAX have more faith than the media right?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2014-03-10 05:14:13 and read 69920 times.

If the plane had exploded at high altitude there would be massive amounts of debris floating--there is none which makes me think it went down relatively intact. The water there is fairly shallow so once the navy gets in there with their underwater radar they will make a grid and locate the wreckage.

It took 73 YEARS to find Titanic, 2 tears to find AF447 and in this age of everyone wants to know everything RIGHT NOW is just going to have to wait. The flight data recorders and CVR have underwater pingers that will go for at leasst 30 days and once they hear those it should take a very short time to triangulate a fix.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 05:15:28 and read 70044 times.

The tickets of the two suspect passengers were bought from an agency in Pattaya through an Iranian man (i.e. the passengers in question were not present during the sale).

They were initially booked to their final European destinations through Qatar/UAE on March 1st, but they somewhat postponed their flights to the 8th and the agent booked them randomly on CZ (codeshare with MH and KL).

[Edited 2014-03-10 05:20:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: warreng24
Posted 2014-03-10 05:15:52 and read 69794 times.

Quoting na (Reply 1):
Looking at the photos of suspected debris from MH370 I ask why arent those SAR guys able to make a photo thats better than with a 1999 cellphone?
Can someone please give them a decent 200 $ camera with a tele lens to add to their multi-million $ plane?

So let's say that we give them a 10 MP camera. That would mean approximately a 1.1 MB file size with JPEG compression.

The data link capabilities for those types of SAR aircraft is very poor. You're looking at a extremely low data rates. I'd estimate them to be equivalent to a 14.4 modem.

The idea is to get a rough image back to the analysts at base as quickly as possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2014-03-10 05:18:46 and read 69081 times.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 50):
Just have a look at this article about how little was found back from MI185:http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...e-terrible-implications-for-mh370/Now imagine that type of destruction at an unknown location in the sea...

A 772ER has a far greater structure than a 737, there would be proportionally more to show up. Additionally the example you quoted fell into a swampy area with strong tides and mud flow that quickly claimed much of the wreckage. If MH370 ended up in open water there should be rather more wreckage floating about.

My theory (for what its worth - very little) is that the plane suffered a major electrical failure, the crew then attempted a divert and ran out of luck somewhere along the coastline of the South China Sea. This would explain the lack of messages, no sightings of any floating debris in open water, and as they would have descended to low level no radar traces.

I know little if anything about the Gulf of Thailand, but it seems that its a relatively sheltered piece of fairly shallow water bordered by a number of Countries. On that basis it ought to have quite a number of cargo ships plus a lot of fishing vessels. none of which to datge have reported anything.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-10 05:19:34 and read 69258 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 40):
More information that one of the two passengers travelling under false identity has been identified:

http://my.news.yahoo.com/identity-on....html

Details in the linked story provide some insight into earlier reports that a Malaysian immigration or customs official had been arrested or questioned.

Quote:
Home Minister Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the passengers were of Asian appearance and criticised border officials for allowing them through security checkpoints.

“I am still perturbed. Can’t these immigration officials think? Italian and Austrian (passport holders) but with Asian faces?” he said.

Comments in previous parts of this discussion have rightly pointed to the fact that names and ethnicity don't always fit preconceptions. This comment from the Malaysian Minister could involve evidence equally consistent with people smuggling as it is also consistent with terrorism.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 05:19:40 and read 69142 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 73):
2 tears to find AF447

It took two years to find the recorders, but it only took a day or two to find parts of AF447, so at least it was positively determined it had crashed into the Atlantic in short order.

With Titanic, the sinking was known to be inevitable before it even sank.

With MH370, there has been nothing. It's eerie.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 73):
in this age of everyone wants to know everything RIGHT NOW is just going to have to wait

Quite. Irony of modern communications I suppose.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 05:21:21 and read 68878 times.

The men travelling on stolen passports “were not Asian looking" according to Malaysia’s civil aviation chief, Azharuddin Abdul Rahman.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2014-03-10 05:24:02 and read 68456 times.

If that oil slick discovered is fuel NOT from a jet airliner, then the loss becomes even more mysterious indeed. It's almost like the plane effectively disappeared like something out of a science-fiction story--yikes!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 05:24:20 and read 68009 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 73):
It took 73 YEARS to find Titanic, 2 tears to find AF447 and in this age of everyone wants to know everything RIGHT NOW is just going to have to wait.

It took them less than 2 days to find debris from AF447. I think it's natural that people are curious, you don't have to be a spoiled brat for that. Most people on this site seem to be calm and reasonable. Some media outlets, on the other hand...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2014-03-10 05:25:25 and read 68053 times.

If the plane seemed to be turning back on radar screens (which is what they were saying yesterday), then the plane might be in another sector entirely. If there was an electrical malfunction or something that would disable the transponder entirely, then there is no way of knowing how long and in what direction this plane flew after we lost radar contact.

The place of impact could be 100s of miles away from where all these ships and aircraft are looking.

In this day and age, this plane should have been found by now. Something just doesn't add up.

There are two plausible explanations as far as I am concerned.

1. Hijacking, so a voluntary shutoff of the transponder and then flying the aircraft (outside of PSR coverage) to an unknown (impact) location over the ocean.

2. Complete loss of engine and electrical power (including RAT), thus explaining loss of radar signal and lack of communication by the crew to alert ATC, and thus the plane glided for a 100 or so miles (Such as the Air Transat in the Azores) and then crashed in a remote location that we do not know yet.

Honestly. #1 looks to be the most plausible right now.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-03-10 05:35:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 05:26:37 and read 67830 times.

This is now funny: "Asked to clarify the appearance of passengers on stolen passports, Rahman bizarrely suggested they looked like the black Italian footballer Mario Balotelli."

Balotelli has a quite important Champion's League game tomorrow, don't disturb him please.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 05:28:29 and read 67369 times.

Theguardian created a live coverage section for MH370, here you go:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...-370-search-continues-live-updates

[Edited 2014-03-10 09:36:23 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-10 05:29:39 and read 67129 times.

While in flight, can one logically stop or physically power down ADS-B? ACARS?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-10 05:31:18 and read 66710 times.

My questions are,

1. How long this search operation will continue ? (Search around flight path area)

2. If they call it a day, would they be looking somewhere else?

3. What is the possibility we never get to know or never find MS370 and her component at all? (I know it has happened to few aircrafts which were never found out after gone missing, but if they can't find it in this age and time then would be worrying?)

Thoughts ?

Thanks.

On other note, do you guys know 'Bermuda Triangle'? I guess most of you know those stories...planes and ships vanishing suddenly.

[Edited 2014-03-10 05:34:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: PhilV
Posted 2014-03-10 05:33:04 and read 66743 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 29):

Last known Heading was 040. Might be possible.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 29):
Quoting michi (Reply 18):

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraf...ssing--says-airline-023820132.html

New report of debris somewhere else.

"60km southeast of Vung Tau, a coastal city in Vietnam"

That would be way off the current search area.

avherald:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

'Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.'

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Hywel
Posted 2014-03-10 05:33:24 and read 66488 times.

Asked to clarify the appearance of passengers on stolen passports, Malaysia’s civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman bizarrely suggested they looked like the black Italian footballer Mario Balotelli.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 05:35:54 and read 65995 times.

281nm away from the last position?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2014-03-10 05:36:44 and read 65676 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 77):
Details in the linked story provide some insight into earlier reports that a Malaysian immigration or customs official had been arrested or questioned.

Quote: Home Minister Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the passengers were of Asian appearance and criticised border officials for allowing them through security checkpoints.

“I am still perturbed. Can’t these immigration officials think? Italian and Austrian (passport holders) but with Asian faces?” he said.
Comments in previous parts of this discussion have rightly pointed to the fact that names and ethnicity don't always fit preconceptions. This comment from the Malaysian Minister could involve evidence equally consistent with people smuggling as it is also consistent with terrorism.

Until a fortnight ago I was unaware of the use of European names in this part of the World, then I met the case of a 99 year old Burmese lady Mabel and her nephews Stanley and Cecil. This concludes me to think that there might be nothing unusual for a person checking the passport to pick up on.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-10 05:37:15 and read 65643 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 82):

Even with complete loss of electrical power, I have a hard time believing that a radar, be it a military one, wouldnt be able to pick up the 777s position. So I doubt that anyone would be able to fly the 777 and land it somewhere remote.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 05:41:19 and read 64669 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 92):
Until a fortnight ago I was unaware of the use of European names in this part of the World, then I met the case of a 99 year old Burmese lady Mabel and her nephews Stanley and Cecil. This concludes me to think that there might be nothing unusual for a person checking the passport to pick up on.

Besides the name, even a most cursory comparison of a person of African or Asian descent and a passport having a photo of a Caucausian descent should not match. I assume the photographs in the stolen passports must have been changed?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 05:41:48 and read 64789 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 86):
While in flight, can one logically stop or physically power down ADS-B? ACARS?

Easy peasy. Just switch off the transponder for ADS-B, or pull the circuit breaker. Not sure if ACARS has a switch but everything has a circuit breaker. This is a safety feature as you want to be able to cut ANY electrical circuit in case you have a problem.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 87):
3. What is the possibility we never get to know or never find MS370 and her component at all? (I know it has happened to few aircrafts which were never found out after gone missing, but if they can't find it in this age and time then would be worrying?)

Very unlikely. AFAIK, the last major jetliner which was never found was in 1979.

[Edited 2014-03-10 06:06:16]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 05:43:42 and read 64692 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 90):
Asked to clarify the appearance of passengers on stolen passports, Malaysia’s civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman bizarrely suggested they looked like the black Italian footballer Mario Balotelli.

Is this some sick joke, or is this an actual quote?

If so, please provide source.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-10 05:45:25 and read 64073 times.

Just remembered the USAF F-16 which crashed over Adriatic sea. The debris was found the next day IIRC and it took 3 days to find the pilot's body (he died during ejection). Adriatic sea is much smaller than gulf of thailand.

http://www.stripes.com/news/air-forc...in-f-16-crash-in-adriatic-1.205594

http://www.stripes.com/news/report-i...l-disorientation-by-pilot-1.250013

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-10 05:46:12 and read 64052 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 96):

This has been said during the press conference

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraf...ssing--says-airline-023820132.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 05:46:35 and read 63607 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 96):
Is this some sick joke, or is this an actual quote?

If so, please provide source.

It appears to be an actual quote. See for example:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...-370-search-continues-live-updates

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: je89_w
Posted 2014-03-10 05:46:36 and read 63543 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 96):

Is this some sick joke, or is this an actual quote?

If so, please provide source.

It's true. Just saw it on TV.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 05:49:13 and read 63108 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 94):
Besides the name, even a most cursory comparison of a person of African or Asian descent and a passport having a photo of a Caucausian descent should not match. I assume the photographs in the stolen passports must have been changed?

100%, unless immigration at KLIA turned a blind eye ($$), the reason behind this is that Malaysia's civil aviation chief just declared that one suspect looked like Mario Balotelli (black skinned).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 05:49:15 and read 63182 times.

Quoting lhrlocal (Reply 101):
AvHerald have a picture of a new possible debris field spotted 80nm SE of Ho Chi Minh City.

See posts 22 and 28.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 05:50:38 and read 62824 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 92):
Until a fortnight ago I was unaware of the use of European names in this part of the World, then I met the case of a 99 year old Burmese lady Mabel and her nephews Stanley and Cecil. This concludes me to think that there might be nothing unusual for a person checking the passport to pick up on.

Although these are often not official names in my experience, but rather self-given names.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 94):
I assume the photographs in the stolen passports must have been changed?

I don't think that is possible in a biometric passport as issued in the Italy and Austria.

Quoting redadeco (Reply 79):
The men travelling on stolen passports “were not Asian looking" according to Malaysia’s civil aviation chief, Azharuddin Abdul Rahman.

Interesting as yesterday the immigration and check-in staff at KUL were in hot water because the names in the passports were suggesting Caucasian travellers and they were accused of not having spotted that with Asians standing in front of them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-10 05:51:00 and read 62879 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 91):
281nm away from the last position?

How far can a 777 @FL350 glide if it loses all power?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2014-03-10 05:52:04 and read 62500 times.

It possible that this aircraft could have been hijacked and landed somewhere way off course, or have continued flying for many hours in an unknown direction before crashing. I think the reason nothing has been found is because they are looking in the wrong place. I don't think that it crashed at the moment they lost radar contact because otherwise they would have found the wreckage already. For all we know it could have landed in the Australian desert.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 05:52:40 and read 62290 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 106):

Not that far.

Well, if it could glide that far it could have gone back to the airport...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 05:52:46 and read 62680 times.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 89):
N9.72 E107.42




Wow.

Let's hope that this debris field gives a clue. Marine pollution tends to concentrate due to oceanic currents, so a relatively fresh debris field should be easily to distinguish from marine waste.




David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Toni_
Posted 2014-03-10 05:52:52 and read 62430 times.

"The suggestion that the two passengers on false passport resembled the footballer Balotelli was greeted by laughter at the press conference."

Sure, let's make this whole thing even more surreal.

I don't know in what way Malaysia’s civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman addressed the press, so I hold my initial judgment, but nevertheless I find it a bit unappropriate to crack jokes in a press conference, while loved ones are waiting for answers.

Pretty impressive that I've just read over a 1000 posts for the last 2 days. And that I can count the contributions that actually thought me something new on 2 hands. We humans just can't sit tight and wait for facts and answers hah?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vr-hkg
Posted 2014-03-10 05:53:25 and read 62426 times.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 89):
'Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.'

And we've come full circle, back to the vicinity of the flower plantations from Part 5:

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

...except this time, it's the water we're looking at, and not the land. And this does at least look a bit like debris of some kind, but it seems a very long way away from the last known position.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 05:54:19 and read 61958 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 106):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 91):
281nm away from the last position?

How far can a 777 @FL350 glide if it loses all power?

Conservatively a 1:15 glide ratio. 35000 feet is 10.67km so in excess of 160km in still air.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Aesma
Posted 2014-03-10 05:55:28 and read 61871 times.

Whatever the person looks like (and Balotelli doesn't look Asian at all), what matters is that they should look like the photo on their passports. Or is he implying that the passports were altered ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 05:55:43 and read 61872 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 106):
How far can a 777 @FL350 glide if it loses all power?

I think I read somewhere that it loses 1 feet altitude for every 10-15 feet distance covered - but don't quote me on that, my recollection could be wrong. If correct, it would mean no more than 100nm.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-10 05:58:29 and read 60929 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 112):
Conservatively a 1:15 glide ratio. 35000 feet is 10.67km so in excess of 160km in still air.

Way out of reach of current debris field then.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: wingz
Posted 2014-03-10 05:58:41 and read 61096 times.

What about the possibility of a fuel tank explosion, as happened to TWA800. As I understand it the FAA has mandated inerting systems on new aircraft, but the retrofitting of these on in service aircraft is not yet complete. Anyone got more precise information on this? Do we know if this particular 777 had nitrogen interting installed?

One argument against this - I guess you would expect a large ammount of floating debris from such an event, which would probably have been found by now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inerting_system

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Skippy777
Posted 2014-03-10 05:58:58 and read 61049 times.

Maybe a weird thing, but what if the select transponder code has been turned off. I think all the data will not be visible for the radar stations. Maybe they got inside the cockpit, turned the transponder off and flew to another destination. It was suppose to fly to China and with the fake Passports you never know ?

Is it possible to fly to China without a transponder ?

You should say they must be able to find something from a Boeing 777, it's not a small aircraft

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 05:59:20 and read 60969 times.

I guess the problem is that the sea in that region is rather polluted by waste. So unless something undoubtedly belonging to an airliner is spotted from the air, a lot of rather innocent floatsam will be chased down.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: j77w
Posted 2014-03-10 05:59:45 and read 61279 times.

Quoting ben175 (Reply 70):

If that's not bad enough, check out this link:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...ts-boeing-777s-20140309-34f9g.html

Whenever a major event or incident occurs, it's only a matter of time before the media rushes out to get "the local perspective" (well, in this case, 'we Aussies don't have 777-200ERs, so let's ask the neighbours next door. That's "local" enough').

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 06:00:56 and read 60442 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 113):
Whatever the person looks like (and Balotelli doesn't look Asian at all), what matters is that they should look like the photo on their passports. Or is he implying that the passports were altered ?

Obviously passports were forged/passengers somewhat bypassed immigration, the original holders are caucasians and yesterday the Italian man named "Luigi Maraldi" held a press conference in Thailand to reveal who he is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-10 06:02:21 and read 60500 times.

Autonomous tracking of non cooperative aircraft

Thank you Starlionbblue for confirming what I suspected. Comm systems can be easily switched off in flight.

The point I was trying to make in post 232# thread 8, is that a different approach is needed if we want to make sure that no civilian aircraft can go AWOL without reporting its positions. Autonomous subsystem is the key. No link to any of the standard avionics, power buses, ... and no switches in the cockpit for someone to interfere. Transmission only when abnormal condition(s) are detected. Hopefully still able to transmit when tumbling down. If a crash occurs, the ELT takes over.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 06:02:32 and read 60045 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 113):

He doesn't need to look Asian with an Italian passport. And perhaps the check-in/gate agents at KUL don't know how the typical Italian looks like, due to lack of "training". But an employee at KUL can tell you exactly who's looking like a Chinese or a Malaysian.

David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 06:03:00 and read 60133 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 113):
Whatever the person looks like (and Balotelli doesn't look Asian at all), what matters is that they should look like the photo on their passports. Or is he implying that the passports were altered ?

Quite clearly the passports HAD To be altered - The only way the passports could have been used it they were untouched would be by the actual people in the photographs, UNLESS they were uncannily similar looking, which I highly doubt.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-10 06:06:09 and read 59374 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 88):
The Guardian live blog backs the story now:

Quote:
Benjaporn Krutnait, owner of the Grand Horizon travel agency in Pattaya, Thailand, said the Iranian, a long-term business contact who she knew only as %u201CMr Ali%u201D, first asked her to book cheap tickets to Europe for the two men on March 1. Ms Benjaporn initially reserved one of the men on a Qatar Airways flight and the other on Etihad.

But the tickets expired when Ms Benjaporn did not hear back from Mr Ali. When he contacted her again on Thursday, she rebooked the men on the Malaysia Airlines flight through Beijing because it was the cheapest available. Ms Benjaporn booked the tickets through China Southern Airlines via a code share arrangement.

A friend of Mr Ali paid Ms Benjaporn cash for the tickets, she said, adding that it was quite common for people to book tickets in Pattaya through middle men such as Mr Ali, who then take a commission.

If correct, this information seems to end the terrorism theory involving the two people on stolen EU passports. They were earlier booked to the same destinations on QR and EY by the 'Iranian man' but the reservations lapsed when they weren't paid for.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 90):
Malaysia%u2019s civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman bizarrely suggested they looked like the black Italian footballer Mario Balotelli.

The Guardian's website puts paid to the 'Asian looking' passengers on stolen passports

Quote:
Malaysia%u2019s civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman is giving another news conference in Kuala Lumpa.

He confirmed that the search area is being increased and that the operation is being %u201Cintensified%u201D.

Investigators have examined the CCTV footage of passengers boarding the plane, and said all the security procedures were complied with.

The men travelling on stolen passports %u201Cwere not Asian looking%u201D, Rahman said.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 06:08:48 and read 58732 times.

I wonder if comms were switched off given the change in heading on FR24 at the end of data? Went from 25 to 28 then to 40 degrees.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 06:11:32 and read 58352 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 123):
I wonder if comms were switched off given the change in heading on FR24 at the end of data? Went from 25 to 28 then to 40 degrees.

If that data is correct, it implies the transponder sent it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-10 06:13:41 and read 57936 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 122):
Quoting Finn350 (Reply 88):The Guardian live blog backs the story now:Quote:Benjaporn Krutnait, owner of the Grand Horizon travel agency in Pattaya, Thailand, said the Iranian, a long-term business contact who she knew only as %u201CMr Ali%u201D, first asked her to book cheap tickets to Europe for the two men on March 1. Ms Benjaporn initially reserved one of the men on a Qatar Airways flight and the other on Etihad.But the tickets expired when Ms Benjaporn did not hear back from Mr Ali. When he contacted her again on Thursday, she rebooked the men on the Malaysia Airlines flight through Beijing because it was the cheapest available. Ms Benjaporn booked the tickets through China Southern Airlines via a code share arrangement.A friend of Mr Ali paid Ms Benjaporn cash for the tickets, she said, adding that it was quite common for people to book tickets in Pattaya through middle men such as Mr Ali, who then take a commission.If correct, this information seems to end the terrorism theory involving the two people on stolen EU passports.


It rules the 2 suspect pax out as being terrorists IMO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nomadd22
Posted 2014-03-10 06:15:27 and read 57969 times.

I can buy a $.50 candy bar with my credit card and in two seconds the machine will scan the card and verify it's authenticity. A stolen card will be useless 5 seconds after I report it. But an airline or airport computer system can't check a database to be sure the passport is a valid one.
The list of stolen passports isn't a "vast database". It's a simple list of a few thousand numbers and related data that could fit on a cheap thumb drive. Even if somebody was too dumb to know how to check scanned passports against the real time list, how hard could it be to download it into your local system every morning?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 06:15:45 and read 57883 times.

Why are we going on about these passports?

Based on the information about how the tickets were procured, it seems to me that these two were illegal immigrants trying to find their way to Europe... The fact they were initially booked on to fly via Qatar and the UAE on seperate flights then booked onto a flight sourced by the travel agent (as the cheapest option) it hardly seems plaucible it was terrorism, as don't these attacks usually require a lot of planning??

Anyway, could we maybe discuss the debris field found near Vietnam? Is it plausible?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 06:22:19 and read 55929 times.

Quoting art (Reply 126):

It rules the 2 suspect pax out as being terrorists IMO.

Why? While I agree that the story - if true - makes it more unlikely, I don't think that terrorists necessarily target a specific flight if they plan to blow up a plane. It is probably more a question of the airport of departure, if they can position themselves in time and if accomplices are available on a certain date.

Quite honestly, the story of someone who is a long-term business contact yet only known as Mr. Ali sounds a bit dodgy in itself.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2014-03-10 06:24:04 and read 55875 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 105):
It possible that this aircraft could have been hijacked and landed somewhere way off course, or have continued flying for many hours in an unknown direction before crashing. I think the reason nothing has been found is because they are looking in the wrong place. I don't think that it crashed at the moment they lost radar contact because otherwise they would have found the wreckage already. For all we know it could have landed in the Australian desert.

But without being tracked by anyones radar? Even if they turned the transponder off then they would have been seen by radar unless they were flying 'under the radar' which would have required flying at under 1000ft.

Given the fuel onboard for the KUL - PEK sector there wouldn't have been enough fuel to get as far as Australia. This would have also involved flying over Indonesia which would have been noticed given the populous region both on land and on water.

Very strange and fast developing picture here.

Sandyb123

[Edited 2014-03-10 06:25:49]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-10 06:24:31 and read 56206 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 128):
Anyway, could we maybe discuss the debris field found near Vietnam? Is it plausible?

From the last confirmed FR24 position, a 40deg heading would take it roughly to the debris field, so not impossible. Again, let's see if it really is debris, but that photo posted on avherald looks more convincing than anything we've seen so far:

http://avherald.com/img/malaysia_b772_9m-mro_gulf_of_thailand_140308_2.jpg

[Edited 2014-03-10 06:25:35]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 06:26:08 and read 55604 times.

The current in that new debris area apparently runs towards Malaysia, so the debris would not have drifted out that way.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: TreeHillRavens
Posted 2014-03-10 06:27:57 and read 54993 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 120):
But an employee at KUL can tell you exactly who's looking like a Chinese or a Malaysian.

Not all the time though. I've even seen staff at KUL mistaken a local Chinese as Korean and vice versa.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 06:28:00 and read 55418 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 131):
From the last confirmed FR24 position, a 40deg heading would take it roughly to the debris field, so not impossible. Again, let's see if it really is debris, but that photo posted on avherald looks more convincing than anything we've seen so far:

The picture wasn't showing up so go to the link here and scroll down: http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

Yeah, it looks like it could be something. For the families' sake, I hope it is...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 06:28:14 and read 54834 times.

http://www.southchinasea.org/2011/08/19/surface-current-patterns/

S China Sea current patterns.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2014-03-10 06:28:41 and read 54695 times.

I am thinking that the stolen passports are red herrings. Why would a terrorist need a stolen passport? While it may be the case if he is unable to obtain a legitimate one, but most people can. I believe all of the 9/11 hijackers had legitimate passports. If it is a suicide mission then it will not matter. If it was a bomb smuggled onboard (like PA103) then it is irrelevant; it was not a passenger that was on the plane. It could have been one of the 5 who did not board; those are the more interesting. Is it possible that one of them identified a bag as belonging to someone else, and hence the bag did NOT get removed when the passenger did not board? Terrorists examine all of the security protocols and then figure a way to get around them. And regardless how diligent the security officials are, some clever terrrorist is likely to succeed at some point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: asetiadi
Posted 2014-03-10 06:28:42 and read 54839 times.

I'm afraid the plane may crashed on the land not in the sea. They have to look this as possibility.

It's almost hard to believe after 3 days, no debris found on the sea.

If this is a hijacking, can they fly the plane undetected?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2014-03-10 06:29:17 and read 54712 times.

Quoting mila (Reply 3):

It feels like the Malaysian government is hiding something...

If nothing else I am sure they are plenty embarrassed that some people got on one a plane of their airline in their country with stolen passports.

I have started to wonder a bit if somehow some way the aircraft was shot down. However, that starts another entire set of questions and I really dont think that is something that happened.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
This begs the question why they would want to hide something.

If nothing else lapses in their airport procedures and I am sure they dont want attention drawn to this issue.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2014-03-10 06:29:22 and read 54578 times.

Quoting art (Reply 126):

It rules the 2 suspect pax out as being terrorists IMO.
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 128):
Based on the information about how the tickets were procured, it seems to me that these two were illegal immigrants trying to find their way to Europe...

Not necessarily. Saboteur could easily have used a middle man to buy tickets as well. Just because they did not buy the first set of tickets does it mean that they were trying for the lowest fare. It could just mean that they were fishing for the "right" flight.

But all of this is conjecture. I am only keeping the possibility open.

bt

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-10 06:30:09 and read 54587 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 128):
it hardly seems plaucible it was terrorism, as don't these attacks usually require a lot of planning??

I certainly think it suggests those two weren't terrorists, since if you want to send a message you're not going to voluntarily end your life on whichever carrier happens to have the lowest fare at the time.

That being said, it does not rule out terrorism, although I struggle to find a motive.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-10 06:30:39 and read 54110 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 135):
S China Sea current patterns.

But only in the monsoon seasons, not March.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-10 06:31:37 and read 54308 times.

Looks like Chinese officials are frustrated that Malaysian authority haven't had any luck whatsoever in this situation yet. They have sent 10 officials as a aid to help in this mission.

Any one surprised, no statement or any information from Boeing or NTSB (as US national was involved) ? I know too early to jump to a conclusion however no statements or whatsoever yet from those 2? (Unless I have missed it).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-10 06:32:24 and read 53860 times.

if they turned off all communication and transporders, they could all be in pacific and people are looking in wrong places

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-10 06:34:35 and read 53461 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 142):
Looks like Chinese officials are frustrated that Malaysian authority haven't had any luck whatsoever in this situation yet. They have sent 10 officials as a aid to help in this mission.

Based on the content of the press conference, the apparently poor organization of the SAR effort, and the completely boneheaded reporting coming out of the country ("They look Asian, wait no they don't one of them is black, the plane turned around, wait no they didn't, a pilot made contact wait no he didn't"), they seem wholly incompetent - or at least incapable of dealing with a disaster of this magnitude. The more foreign assistance, the better.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 06:34:55 and read 53316 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 141):

December to February has got to be close enough, I'd think.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-10 06:38:28 and read 52401 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 124):
Quoting cbrboy (Reply 83):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 73):The tickets of the two suspect passengers were bought from an agency in Pattaya through an Iranian man

CRRBOY--That was not my posting. Check post #73. Someone made an error.

Apologies, DTWPurserBoy. I am certain that I highlighted text and pressed 'quote selected text'. I did not manually manipulate the quotes. Unfortunately this sort of misquote has happened to me before on a.net... some sort of system error occurring with quotes...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: 345tas
Posted 2014-03-10 06:38:37 and read 52671 times.

The two stolen passport holders certainly seem less suspicious now.

To the poster who said terrorists don't care so much what flights they are on, that is demonstrably not the case. By that logic, the 9/11 hijackers would have been happy to have crashed 4 Namibian Dash 8s into the rainforest.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: UALWN
Posted 2014-03-10 06:45:33 and read 51185 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 129):
I don't think that terrorists necessarily target a specific flight if they plan to blow up a plane.

So you think they left it at the mercy of the travel agent in Pattaya which plane they would bring down? It could have been any company, going anywhere, flying presumably not only from KUL but also from BKK. And they would bomb it (and commit suicide) no matter what? Weird, to say the least. This, of course, doesn't mean that there was no foul play involved. Only, it makes ir more plausible that those two poor souls (presumably dead by now) were just trying to get illegally into Europe, and that the middle man (Mr. Ali) put them in the cheapest itinerary available.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: bnatraveler
Posted 2014-03-10 06:48:11 and read 50267 times.

Since MH's res system appears to not have had their invalid docs list updated since the PSPTs were reported as stolen in 2012 to Interpol, I wonder when KL's system was last updated? The reason I ask is that _at least_ by the time the PAX checked in for the MH flights there would be a SSR for DOCS or FOID with their PSPT and traveling credentials. When does KL check the docs: at PEK or at presentment of the SSR DOCS? It appears that the PAX were not checked-in to the KL legs by MH because the segments were showing as open and not CKIN or ARPT.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: fotoflyer71
Posted 2014-03-10 06:49:13 and read 50343 times.

Without going through all those AF447 posts all over again, can anyone remember what the radar situation was like? I seem to remember that, in fairly short order, radar position data was published showing a signficant turn - is that correct? I don't think there was any altitude data though right? So in that instance, we had ACARS data showing that something crazy happened and radar data showing at least some positional information. Here we have absolutely nada after the flightradar24 plot ends.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-10 06:50:02 and read 50423 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 143):
if they turned off all communication and transporders, they could all be in pacific and people are looking in wrong places

Yeah, that's the only thing that makes me think hijack. It looks like they are looking in the totally wrong place. If the weather is good (it is), there is really no reason for someone not to have spotted something.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 136):
I am thinking that the stolen passports are red herrings. Why would a terrorist need a stolen passport? While it may be the case if he is unable to obtain a legitimate one, but most people can. I believe all of the 9/11 hijackers had legitimate passports. If it is a suicide mission then it will not matter.

That's exactly what I said in part 7. If you're on a one way trip, its frankly safer and smarter to use the real thing to get on board. I also think you'd want more than two people. If you have been around these 3rd world countries you know illegal immigrants do this all the time and sneaking into Europe is a common end point. I mean people go there by rafts of all things.

Quoting 345tas (Reply 147):
To the poster who said terrorists don't care so much what flights they are on, that is demonstrably not the case. By that logic,

I agree. Having said that, this plane had a low number of passengers like the 9/11 flights. That makes me a little suspicious but I still think its some type of accident. Maybe they lost electrical and RAM power and glided for sometime before crashing. Or perhaps they lost oxygen and went off course.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: polnebmit
Posted 2014-03-10 06:51:56 and read 50215 times.

Is there a possibility that the aircraft went down on the South China Sea side of the Vietnamese pennisula and the rescue operations may be focusing on the wrong location? It could be that the aircraft still continued on its own power for a certain period of time before it went down. Loss of communications doesn't mean that everything went downhill at that moment. Or am I wrong?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-10 06:53:15 and read 49856 times.

Quoting 345tas (Reply 147):
the 9/11 hijackers would have been happy to have crashed 4 Namibian Dash 8s into the rainforest.

Ummmn, I agree with your rhetorical point, but Air Namibia doesn't have any Dash 8s, and even if they did, there probably isn't any rainforest within range of where they would be based...  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-10 06:53:19 and read 49786 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 151):
Having said that, this plane had a low number of passengers like the 9/11 flights. That makes me a little suspicious but I still think its some type of acciden

A 80% load factor (227/282) is not low. The flight was pretty busy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 06:56:37 and read 49268 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 152):
Is there a possibility that the aircraft went down on the South China Sea side of the Vietnamese pennisula and the rescue operations may be focusing on the wrong location? It could be that the aircraft still continued on its own power for a certain period of time before it went down. Loss of communications doesn't mean that everything went downhill at that moment. Or am I wrong?

If you look at reply 131, you will see that a large field of debris has been spotted off Ho Chi Minh City, which is on that side of Vietnam. I think ships are being sent their now... looking at the photo, it seems like it could be the wreckage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: gosimeon
Posted 2014-03-10 06:56:38 and read 49568 times.

Reports another flight has seen the wreckage:

Picture on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Bruciebabe/status/443002497498509313/photo/1

Location: N9.72 E107.42

Unconfirmed so far.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 06:57:57 and read 48957 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 136):
I am thinking that the stolen passports are red herrings. Why would a terrorist need a stolen passport? While it may be the case if he is unable to obtain a legitimate one, but most people can. I believe all of the 9/11 hijackers had legitimate passports. If it is a suicide mission then it will not matter.

To get on an international flight to a destination for which you need a visa, but not the person you arepretending to be.

Quoting 345tas (Reply 147):
To the poster who said terrorists don't care so much what flights they are on, that is demonstrably not the case. By that logic, the 9/11 hijackers would have been happy to have crashed 4 Namibian Dash 8s into the rainforest.

That was me and it depends who your enemy is. The 9/11 terrorists did not blow up airplanes in flight as an act of terror, they flew airplanes into US hallmarks. How about, for example, UTA flight 772 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_Flight_772) or the shoe bomber? If we are looking at terrorists who have some beef with Malaysia or China, it is probably more important to target a flight that takes off from KUL or goes to PEK and is related to those states in some way. Given that, it could even be an explanation why the flights by EY and QR were not used. If you try to book a KUL-AMS oneway flight at short notice, the cheapest options at the moment usually are EY via AUH or MH via PEK, so the chances that you are getting it offered MH/CZ without explicitly asking for a specific, unusual routing - like a terrorist (or spotter...) - but for a cheap ticket like the average traveller are good.

I am not saying that it points at terrorists, but it does not rule them out either.

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:00:59]

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:02:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 06:58:20 and read 48688 times.

Quoting fotoflyer71 (Reply 150):
Without going through all those AF447 posts all over again, can anyone remember what the radar situation was like? I seem to remember that, in fairly short order, radar position data was published showing a signficant turn - is that correct? I don't think there was any altitude data though right? So in that instance, we had ACARS data showing that something crazy happened and radar data showing at least some positional information. Here we have absolutely nada after the flightradar24 plot ends.

MH370: Yes, there are reports about the airplane turning (back). For this moment of disappearance, we also have altitude information about MH370.

AF447: No radar, no ADS-B - the only information we had was the flight plan and the ACARS messages.

David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 06:58:47 and read 48608 times.

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 156):
Reports another flight has seen the wreckage:

In the same area as the other flight? Is this the same debris?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-10 06:59:10 and read 48650 times.

Quoting fotoflyer71 (Reply 150):
Without going through all those AF447 posts all over again, can anyone remember what the radar situation was like? I seem to remember that, in fairly short order, radar position data was published showing a signficant turn - is that correct? I don't think there was any altitude data though right? So in that instance, we had ACARS data showing that something crazy happened and radar data showing at least some positional information. Here we have absolutely nada after the flightradar24 plot ends.

AF447 went down in mid-Atlantic where there was no radar coverage. The only information available was from their position reports to Brazilian ATC and from the aircraft via ACARS.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 07:00:42 and read 48301 times.

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 156):

...this is already reported on the avherald.com site. See my reply #107 in this thread, I've pasted a map of the last known position and the newly discovered debris (?) field.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: windshear
Posted 2014-03-10 07:00:46 and read 48191 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 122):
If correct, this information seems to end the terrorism theory

Why does it end the terrorism theory? the 9/11 terrorists also bought their tickets, and on J class even

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: ASA
Posted 2014-03-10 07:01:13 and read 48090 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 143):

if they turned off all communication and transporders, they could all be in pacific and people are looking in wrong places

can they avoid all military and civilian radars along the way?

or does South China Sea offers enough uncovered area for an aircraft to get away undetected? they would have fuel to fly 7-8 hours probably ... could some remote island in western Pacific or the Indonesian archipelago be reachable?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: gosimeon
Posted 2014-03-10 07:01:53 and read 48381 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 159):
In the same area as the other flight? Is this the same debris?

I don't think so. From the Av Herald:

Hong Kong’s Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-10 07:02:32 and read 47731 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 160):
AF447 went down in mid-Atlantic where there was no radar coverage. The only information available was from their position reports to Brazilian ATC and from the aircraft via ACARS.

And yet debris was found within a day or two.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-10 07:03:05 and read 47883 times.

A comment on that Twitter link said that it just looks like water. However, I hope he's wrong. I know, I know hundreds of people have said the same thing whenever something that possibly resembles wreckage has been "found."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-10 07:04:31 and read 47375 times.

Good from China, deploying Satellite.

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 156):

Yes, this was discussed while ago.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 07:05:29 and read 47309 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 155):
If you look at reply 131, you will see that a large field of debris has been spotted off Ho Chi Minh City, which is on that side of Vietnam. I think ships are being sent their now... looking at the photo, it seems like it could be the wreckage.

Then MH2370 must have flown even further north as the currents in that part of the South China Sea are north > southwest. Guess we are talking then about more than 300nm past the last contact and also past airports such as SGN. Not very likely IMHO.

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:37:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-10 07:05:50 and read 47250 times.

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 164):
I don't think so.

Well, your position and the avherald position are about 1000m apart.

Looks the same to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: gosimeon
Posted 2014-03-10 07:06:07 and read 46847 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 167):
Yes, this was discussed while ago.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 161):
...this is already reported on the avherald.com site. See my reply #107 in this thread, I've pasted a map of the last known position and the newly discovered debris (?) field.

Sorry folks - so much new content on this thread it's hard to keep track.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-10 07:06:45 and read 47252 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 131):
Again, let's see if it really is debris, but that photo posted on avherald looks more convincing than anything we've seen so far:

What am I looking at at the very top of that photo? It looks like part of the wing of the plane taking the *photo* is damaged, but that can't be right. That's definitely not a piece of debris sitting on the water, though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-10 07:07:12 and read 47110 times.

Quoting wingz (Reply 114):
What about the possibility of a fuel tank explosion, as happened to TWA800.

One hundred percent impossible.

Look, the only reason that the fuel in TWA800's tanks could explode is that a portion was concentrated, explosive vapor.

The only reason there was vapor in the tanks is that the a/c packs were running on the ground for an extended period of time under a mostly-empty center wing tank, which wasn't and wouldn't be filled for a quick hop to Paris. The ability of the a/c on the ground to heat the tank fuel wasn't well-understood at the time. Indeed, it wasn't perceived as possible that the vapor would be as significant as it was.

Once TWA 800 took off and started climbing into the much-much-colder atmosphere, the tank fuel started cooling by convection from the metal airframe. As the tank cooled, the vapor condensed into liquid. The source of ignition has never been proved, but it is assumed to be a spark from the fuel tank pump (which had been expressly-designed so such a spark wasn't possible). Somewhere in the report on the accident, there's a calculation of how much longer the a/c would have had to have been climbing before a spark would have been totally-ineffective in causing an explosion. It was a matter of a couple more minutes.

At altitude, where the outside temperature is between -50 to -60 degrees C (-58 to -76 degrees F), you're not going to have the same ability for the fuel to be in a concentrated vapor form such that it could be ignited by a small spark in the manner assumed to be the mechanism by which the TWA 800 fuel was ignited.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-10 07:08:28 and read 47193 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 171):
What am I looking at at the very top of that photo? It looks like part of the wing of the plane taking the *photo* is damaged, but that can't be right. That's definitely not a piece of debris sitting on the water, though.

No no, look closer... it's probably aileron / flap actuator or sth. similar.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 07:10:20 and read 46118 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 166):
A comment on that Twitter link said that it just looks like water. However, I hope he's wrong. I know, I know hundreds of people have said the same thing whenever something that possibly resembles wreckage has been "found."

I'm sure people in the aircraft had a much clearer view than what is seen in the picture, which is slightly pixelated.. and if an airliner saw the wreckage from high up, maybe they are on to something?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-10 07:11:47 and read 46026 times.

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 164):
can they avoid all military and civilian radars along the way?


As I was asking before: Is there a map available showing the primary radar coverage of this area?

Until not knowing anything about the primary radar coverage in this area, speculation regarding not being seen on radar is a bit pointless, isn't it?

Secondary radar is pointless as well, as there are many reasons not being visible on them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-10 07:12:15 and read 46087 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 158):
AF447: No radar, no ADS-B - the only information we had was the flight plan and the ACARS messages.

I think that the ACARS had some location data though..

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 155):
f you look at reply 131, you will see that a large field of debris has been spotted off Ho Chi Minh City, which is on that side of Vietnam. I think ships are being sent their now... looking at the photo, it seems like it could be the wreckage.

That looks more like a debris field but could be something else of course.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-10 07:14:10 and read 45463 times.

Quoting windshear (Reply 162):
Why does it end the terrorism theory? the 9/11 terrorists also bought their tickets, and on J class even

Because, given that the two stolen passport holders do not seem to have crashed the MH plane (instead of the QR or EY flights they were initially booked on) into anything, and no-one has claimed responsibility for bringing down MH370, there does not seem to have been a terrorist outcome. And, as another poster has said, if the travel agent can be believed, how can you conceive of a terrorist booking the cheapest flight via anywhere as the target? There's no motive!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: mdavies06
Posted 2014-03-10 07:14:52 and read 45973 times.

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 164):

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 159):
In the same area as the other flight? Is this the same debris?

I don't think so. From the Av Herald:

Hong Kong’s Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.
Hong Kong news channel TVB said the sighting was reported by a CX flight operating HKG-KUL or HKG-SIN.

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:15:30]

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:17:29]

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:33:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 07:15:19 and read 45568 times.

I hope they are not running around to every report, and neglecting the area of the last known position.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-10 07:24:41 and read 43258 times.

What really makes me wonder is that how with so much security layers these days, X-ray machines, body scanners, metal detectors etc., how can someone, if this was foul play, carry things like explosives onto a plane? Also, what about checked-in baggage security measures? If this indeed were deliberate human act, so many security measures had to have failed. I am sure many are asking these questions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-10 07:26:56 and read 42930 times.

My question is.......... when we finally DO find the plane...... (which realistically will be wreckage).... will people be celebrating or getting even more upset?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: fotoflyer71
Posted 2014-03-10 07:26:58 and read 42729 times.

Thanks for the correction cbrboy - I remember seeing map plots but you're right, they were from position reports.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 07:27:34 and read 43035 times.

Here is a map showing the current and expanded search areas

http://twitter.com/501Awani/status/443007706735968257

I still don't get why they are looking West of the peninsula.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: greenair727
Posted 2014-03-10 07:27:44 and read 42774 times.

I’ve read the holders of the stolen passports were destined to AMS, while another story said FRA and CPH. As we know, the stolen passports got these folks on the plane. But once they arrive “home” according to the passports they now hold, wouldn’t their home country scan it as they enter---and even if the airline’s system didn’t pick them up as stolen documents, wouldn’t at least the home government’s system raise a flag? OR are passports not scanned, and folks just waived in with a ‘welcome home’? I’ve seen that in Europe, but haven’t entered Europe in a while. Or are certain ports of entry easier than others—one scans the passports of all entrants (citizens and not citizens), while another just waives the citizens in after visually looking at the passport? (The US always scans all passports---citizens and not—at entry.)

IF it is standard procedure these days to scan each entering passport AND the home (issuing) countries would have immediately known that the document being scanned was stolen, then using a stolen passport to illegally enter AMS/FRA/CPH would not have worked. And if this is the case, did the provider/seller of the passports know this or was the plan that they would never attempt to enter into Europe. If so, a strong argument can be made for terrorism.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-10 07:28:07 and read 42794 times.

One thing I still have not figured out is why it is at all possible to turn a transponder off voluntarily. One would think that these are programmed so that they cannot be turned off while the aircraft is in the air.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-10 07:30:09 and read 42285 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 184):
My question is.......... when we finally DO find the plane...... (which realistically will be wreckage).... will people be celebrating or getting even more upset?

It may bring some solace, but it will not be any easier on loved ones. For the search crew it will be bittersweet if I had to suspect.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-10 07:31:36 and read 41792 times.

Quoting michi (Reply 175):

I am curious about public availability of primary radar data too, but I have not yet seen such a thing on the Internet. I believe it is also possible that primary radar can often be of such an age that it predates the Internet itself. Furthermore, an ATC poster further up the thread has said that it's unlikely they would have primary radar covering the flight levels. If this is true, then military radar is our best hope, but it would be amusing to pitch them on the idea of making that publicly available.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hohd
Posted 2014-03-10 07:32:02 and read 41816 times.

If it is a mechanical failure, and it looks like it could be, especially with an earlier wing repair, Boeing should be assisting more in locating this aircraft. Any one flying on a 777 would feel secure if any fixes needed has been done.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Stabilator
Posted 2014-03-10 07:33:59 and read 41251 times.

Quoting chieft (Reply 12):
data are not sent to the maintenance basis live and constantly. Technically it shouldn't be a problem. A loss of a FDR would then not be so dramatic.

A given airline with hundreds or thousands of flights a day would require massive amounts of storage capacity, and huge centers to collect the data. Why waste a ton of money on all of that when there are rarely any crashes?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-10 07:34:44 and read 40762 times.

Quoting AT (Reply 188):
One thing I still have not figured out is why it is at all possible to turn a transponder off voluntarily. One would think that these are programmed so that they cannot be turned off while the aircraft is in the air.

Two reasons. Transponders can misbehave and sometimes need to be power-cycled as a diagnostic step during flight. Second, circuit breakers. Any part of the electrical system needs to be able to be disconnected due to a number of reasons.

Third - and I know I said two - aircraft are not built with the assumption that flight crew will attempt to down the aircraft. While this has happened, there are valid reasons for cutting electrical power to the transponder and that is good enough.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: westjet_737
Posted 2014-03-10 07:35:12 and read 40706 times.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 187):
IF it is standard procedure these days to scan each entering passport AND the home (issuing) countries would have immediately known that the document being scanned was stolen, then using a stolen passport to illegally enter AMS/FRA/CPH would not have worked. And if this is the case, did the provider/seller of the passports know this or was the plan that they would never attempt to enter into Europe. If so, a strong argument can be made for terrorism.

I'm not sure about how exactly it works in the EU, but neither itinerary to be used by the stolen passport holders passed through any of the issuing countries.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: marosbts
Posted 2014-03-10 07:36:12 and read 40423 times.

The fact that they are searching west/south of the peninsula looks to me like them saying that their national air defense is so bad that you can fly with a large airliner through the country and remain undetected. Not something the generals would like to admit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 07:36:22 and read 40434 times.

I wonder wether the Malaysian authorities already know what happened and are hiding it. I mean, this plane cant disappear without sending out its regular automatic messages. These messages are known to the authorities.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2014-03-10 07:37:49 and read 40317 times.

If this had been terrorism (i.e., a bomb), one would have expected the plane to basically drop out of the sky then and there - explosive decompression at FL350 means almost a guaranteed crash into the ocean. This would mean that the FlightRadar plot would have basically pinpointed the location of the crash - within a few miles. One would almost have certainly expected debris to have been ejected from the explosion (seats, panels, skin fragments, carry on luggage, insulation, etc.). None of that has been found. None.

Same thing with a breakup. Where are panels? Where are the floating shoes? Where are the seat cushions? Apparently nowhere where the radar lost its transponder contact....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2014-03-10 07:38:28 and read 40359 times.

Given that this is actually a commercial air crew (that is probably used to flying on this route) that reported this - I'm inclined to think that this debris field might likely be the real one. However let's be hopeful.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 07:38:46 and read 39906 times.

There's no indication of anything yet, except that 9M-MRO is missing.

The debris field, when it's finally located might be our first clue as to what happened. But even that is being distorted by the ocean as the hours pass.

Right now, we have only the barest of info.

The plane is missing, there were no calls for help, and data and radar were lost around 41 minutes into the flight near IGARI waypoint.

I must admit that I am beginning to wonder about the search effort.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-10 07:39:00 and read 40337 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 171):
What am I looking at at the very top of that photo? It looks like part of the wing of the plane taking the *photo* is damaged, but that can't be right. That's definitely not a piece of debris sitting on the water, though.

It's the flap track mechanism of the Twin Otter:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9X09-JgaJME/Ut1kHpkmiZI/AAAAAAAACsE/M-NMmfflOAM/s1600/1998-T1-19-2000.jpg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 07:39:34 and read 40200 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 142):
Any one surprised, no statement or any information from Boeing or NTSB (as US national was involved) ? I know too early to jump to a conclusion however no statements or whatsoever yet from those 2? (Unless I have missed it).

Neither Boeing nor the NTSB can really do much right now since there is practically no data to base an investigation on.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 144):

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 142):
Looks like Chinese officials are frustrated that Malaysian authority haven't had any luck whatsoever in this situation yet. They have sent 10 officials as a aid to help in this mission.

Based on the content of the press conference, the apparently poor organization of the SAR effort, and the completely boneheaded reporting coming out of the country ("They look Asian, wait no they don't one of them is black, the plane turned around, wait no they didn't, a pilot made contact wait no he didn't"), they seem wholly incompetent - or at least incapable of dealing with a disaster of this magnitude. The more foreign assistance, the better.

This was even commented on in a New Straits Times editorial this morning: http://www.nst.com.my/opinion/letter...od-communication-strategy-1.504815

Quoting hohd (Reply 191):
If it is a mechanical failure, and it looks like it could be, especially with an earlier wing repair, Boeing should be assisting more in locating this aircraft. Any one flying on a 777 would feel secure if any fixes needed has been done.

And how could Boeing help besides analyzing ADS-B data (done in 30 seconds)? They are not a search and rescue organizatoin.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 07:39:53 and read 40128 times.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 187):
I’ve read the holders of the stolen passports were destined to AMS, while another story said FRA and CPH. As we know, the stolen passports got these folks on the plane. But once they arrive “home” according to the passports they now hold, wouldn’t their home country scan it as they enter---and even if the airline’s system didn’t pick them up as stolen documents, wouldn’t at least the home government’s system raise a flag? OR are passports not scanned, and folks just waived in with a ‘welcome home’? I’ve seen that in Europe, but haven’t entered Europe in a while. Or are certain ports of entry easier than others—one scans the passports of all entrants (citizens and not citizens), while another just waives the citizens in after visually looking at the passport? (The US always scans all passports---citizens and not—at entry.)

IF it is standard procedure these days to scan each entering passport AND the home (issuing) countries would have immediately known that the document being scanned was stolen, then using a stolen passport to illegally enter AMS/FRA/CPH would not have worked. And if this is the case, did the provider/seller of the passports know this or was the plan that they would never attempt to enter into Europe. If so, a strong argument can be made for terrorism.

In a nutshell, what you need to know is that in all EU airports there are 2 sections for immigration, one for EU citizens and the other one for other passports holders. If we assume that the main goal of these two suspect passengers was to smuggle themselves into Europe using forged EU passports, they are betting on the possibility that immigration officers at AMS will waive them in after a quick look on their passports which is quite common and happened to me personally during my last entries into Schengen at CDG and BCN respectively.

This will certainly not work for people from a visible minority as it is the case with these two "black skinned" suspects even if they were genuine EU citizens.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: holzmann
Posted 2014-03-10 07:40:02 and read 40274 times.

Could we please quit mentioning TWA800? Everyone knows the report is bogus. Watch the documentary.

So if no small debris is found, what are the chances it landed intact on the water ( Miracle on Hudson) and then sank as a whole? Slim to none but that could explain the lack of debris.

Terrorism: never forget the possibility that this flight could be someone's idea a practice run. Terrorism must be ruled out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 07:40:12 and read 39766 times.

Quoting na (Reply 198):
I wonder wether the Malaysian authorities already know what happened and are hiding it. I mean, this plane cant disappear without sending out its regular automatic messages. These messages are known to the authorities.

There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO, iirc. It's an optional service.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2014-03-10 07:40:13 and read 39842 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 6):
A commercial jet does not do this. Ever. In the history of aviation.

What is it that commercial jets do not do? Your statement is not clear to my pea brain

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-10 07:40:15 and read 40038 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 173):
No no, look closer... it's probably aileron / flap actuator or sth. similar.

With a jagged edge like that? I'm talking about the big piece of jagged metal hanging down at the top of the photo on avherald, right in the middle. There's no way that's an aileron, but there's also no way that's in the water. It's a weird looking photo.

Edit: Just saw the pic of the Twin Otter - still doesn't seem like a match to me.

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:47:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 07:41:30 and read 39908 times.

Quoting westjet_737 (Reply 195):
I'm not sure about how exactly it works in the EU, but neither itinerary to be used by the stolen passport holders passed through any of the issuing countries.

They did. The "country" in question is the Schengen area. A border control in AMS is as good as a border control in Austrian or Italy because once past immigration in AMS, the passport holder can travel to Austria or Italy without further border controls as all countries in question belong to the Schengen zone. Pretty much like entering the USA in Florida and travelling from there across state borders to California or Texas.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 07:42:00 and read 40016 times.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 205):
So if no small debris is found, what are the chances it landed intact on the water ( Miracle on Hudson) and then sank as a whole? Slim to none but that could explain the lack of debris.

Surely we would have spotted an intact 777 in ~50 meters of water by now...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 07:42:07 and read 39574 times.

Is it already time for the "authorities are hiding something" speculations? They can't even check the passports properly (rhetorical exaggeration, I know), but keep a scandalous secret with dozens or hundreds of people in the know? Sounds very likely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: CityhopperNL
Posted 2014-03-10 07:44:20 and read 39222 times.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 187):
OR are passports not scanned, and folks just waived in with a ‘welcome home’?

I can confirm that this is the case. 9 out of 10 times arriving in Germany or NL on a German or NL passport the immigration officer will just look at the passport for a second or 2, hand back the passport and waive you through. There is no scanning or passport most of the time. I doubt an Austrian passport would receive different treatment. Perhaps Italian arriving in Amsterdam would arise more suspicion but not necessarily.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 07:45:30 and read 39113 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 206):
There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO

Actually there have been "indications" but no confirmation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Rotate
Posted 2014-03-10 07:45:36 and read 39114 times.

Quoting na (Reply 198):
I mean, this plane cant disappear without sending out its regular automatic messages. These messages are known to the authorities.

Nope, that wrong. This feature of automated messages ACARS is not on all airlines, it cost money. MH doesn't have that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-10 07:47:30 and read 38667 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 208):
With a jagged edge like that? I'm talking about the big piece of jagged metal hanging down at the top of the photo on avherald, right in the middle. There's no way that's an aileron, but there's also no way that's in the water. It's a weird looking photo.

It looks like that is something hanging under that wing , maybe a hardpoint where a spare fuel tank (or in some case weapons) would be hung?

You can see the trailing edge of the wing at about 5/8th of the top edge of the picture and it looks like wing (dipped in a bank) extends about 1.8th into the picture.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 07:47:56 and read 38646 times.

Quoting na (Reply 198):

I wonder wether the Malaysian authorities already know what happened and are hiding it. I mean, this plane cant disappear without sending out its regular automatic messages. These messages are known to the authorities.

On the contrary, ADS-B messages are easily stopped by turning off the transponder. The transponder appears to have stopped working (whether intentionally or not, we don't know). That's where the trace seems to stop. As far as we know there were no ACARS messages so nothing there either.

- Why would the authorities hide what happened?
- How would they hide something given the international involvement?
- If they did manage to hide something, how would they expect to keep it hidden?

While yet another possibility, a government coverup seems unlikely.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 205):
Could we please quit mentioning TWA800? Everyone knows the report is bogus. Watch the documentary.

"Everyone knows" and a documentary vs. an official report. Barring stronger evidence, I'll stick with the official report for now.

[Edited 2014-03-10 07:52:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-10 07:49:08 and read 38208 times.

Quoting na (Reply 198):
this plane cant disappear without sending out its regular automatic messages.
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 206):
There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO, iirc. It's an optional service.

According to Mandala499 in an earlier thread, this aircraft was not SATCOM equipped.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: westjet_737
Posted 2014-03-10 07:52:20 and read 37216 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 209):
They did. The "country" in question is the Schengen area. A border control in AMS is as good as a border control in Austrian or Italy because once past immigration in AMS, the passport holder can travel to Austria or Italy without further border controls as all countries in question belong to the Schengen zone. Pretty much like entering the USA in Florida and travelling from there across state borders to California or Texas.

Thank you! I think I read something wrong from the original post as I was unsure of the meaning of "home country." I was under the false impression that there was a difference between an "Italian passport" and an "EU passport." I guess I have to travel more!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 07:53:07 and read 37183 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 218):
According to Mandala499 in an earlier thread, this aircraft was not SATCOM equipped.

I think maybe it was tristarsteve who indicated later that it was. The antenna were an old style and not situated in a dome on top of the fuselage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-10 07:53:28 and read 37379 times.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 205):
So if no small debris is found, what are the chances it landed intact on the water ( Miracle on Hudson) and then sank as a whole? Slim to none but that could explain the lack of debris.

Even AF447 had debris, although it is believed that it hit the water intact, most famously the tail fin.

Quoting marosbts (Reply 197):
The fact that they are searching west/south of the peninsula looks to me like them saying that their national air defense is so bad that you can fly with a large airliner through the country and remain undetected. Not something the generals would like to admit.

It adds to the mystery. Earlier it was reported that Mayalsian military radar observed the plane changing direction as if to return to land, although I can't recall if that piece of data was debunked like some others. However, if it did, then how did the Malaysians then totally lose it? If it did change direction then the newly reported debris field would seem to be in completely the wrong place too.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 210):
Surely we would have spotted an intact 777 in ~50 meters of water by now...

You would think so from flying overhead? If the SAR teams are in the right area, and unless the water is not at all clear there.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 07:54:46 and read 36847 times.

Quoting westjet_737 (Reply 219):

Thank you! I think I read something wrong from the original post as I was unsure of the meaning of "home country." I was under the false impression that there was a difference between an "Italian passport" and an "EU passport." I guess I have to travel more!

There is a difference in that the passports are issued by different countries. AFAIK "EU passport" is not a legal term. It means that the passport is issued by an EU country.

Having said that, within the Schengen Zone there are no border controls, so which one of those passports you hold is somewhat academic.

[Edited 2014-03-10 08:04:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-10 07:57:06 and read 36733 times.

Quoting sejtam (Reply 216):
It looks like that is something hanging under that wing , maybe a hardpoint where a spare fuel tank (or in some case weapons) would be hung?

You can see the trailing edge of the wing at about 5/8th of the top edge of the picture and it looks like wing (dipped in a bank) extends about 1.8th into the picture.

Most likely this is the plane from which the pic was taken:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Nicholson

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 07:57:19 and read 36422 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 206):
There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO, iirc. It's an optional service.

If so, this event should lead to making it mandatory.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 211):
the 777 has an exemplary safety record but it is by no means invincible and believe it or not, it is within the realms of possibility for something to go wrong with it.

Right. With so many Triple Sevens flying chances are that on one of them one time something just went awfully wrong. I have read that in the past MAS had problems with above average corrosion on its planes (the two 744s that were sold to QF for example).
To talk about statistics, serious accidents with modern planes are so rare that a single event like MH370 can turn a statistic around, the 777 now being lower down than the A340 or 744. With accidents thankfully being so rare though it means nothing unless something is found. With the exception of the MD-11 I think any plane (at least from A and B) which entered the market since the late 80s is the same in terms of safety.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-10 07:58:37 and read 36044 times.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 205):
hat are the chances it landed intact on the water ( Miracle on Hudson) and then sank as a whole? Slim to none but that could explain the lack of debris.

But then you'd have to explain how there aren't a bunch of people on rafts in the water. They'd still have found something. If it landed intact on the water, people would still be alive and at least some of them would be conscious enough to do something. If it hit the water hard enough to kill everybody, parts would break off and you'd see floating debris. Either way, there'd be something on the water.

I think the chances of it making an intact water landing are extremely low - I think that's probably the *least* likely of any scenario. At least with the theory of a landing on land you could envision a hijacking scenario, where the passengers were under hijacker control and that's why we haven't heard anything from them. But a water landing, there's no scenario I could think of where that would make any sense given the lack of anything at all being found. Hijackers aren't going to take over a plane and demand it be landed safely on the water. So people would be on rafts or other floatation devices.

The most likely scenario to me is that it hit the water in such a way that it's *mostly* intact, but too hard for anyone to get out, and the little bit of floating debris there is just hasn't been found yet and is now scattered all over the place.

[Edited 2014-03-10 08:01:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 08:02:47 and read 35058 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 220):

I think maybe it was tristarsteve who indicated later that it was. The antenna were an old style and not situated in a dome on top of the fuselage.

Did he mean it had VHF ACARS and not the SATCOM ACARS?

Even so, I think it's an optional service.

VHF also might not work very well in that area.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: greenair727
Posted 2014-03-10 08:02:58 and read 35216 times.

Quote:
I can confirm that this is the case. 9 out of 10 times arriving in Germany or NL on a German or NL passport the immigration officer will just look at the passport for a second or 2, hand back the passport and waive you through. There is no scanning or passport most of the time. I doubt an Austrian passport would receive different treatment. Perhaps Italian arriving in Amsterdam would arise more suspicion but not necessarily.

Okay, thanks for clarification. Such a system does nothing to catch stolen passports (and those carrying them) or to protect the land from people entering illegally planning to do something horrible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2014-03-10 08:03:51 and read 35237 times.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 187):
IF it is standard procedure these days to scan each entering passport AND the home (issuing) countries would have immediately known that the document being scanned was stolen, then

They would have had to clear Immigration at AMS. It is likely that the Dutch officer in that case would have discovered that the passports are cancelled.

From the reports we have now, the tickets have been bought by a trafficker who organised the trip for illegal Aliens. Even if the Dutch officer had not noted anything, they would have declared themselves and asked for asylum. The whole purpose for such ventures.

Rules out the terrorism suspiciion, at least for these 2 passengers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 08:06:17 and read 34459 times.

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 213):
I can confirm that this is the case. 9 out of 10 times arriving in Germany or NL on a German or NL passport the immigration officer will just look at the passport for a second or 2, hand back the passport and waive you through. There is no scanning or passport most of the time. I doubt an Austrian passport would receive different treatment. Perhaps Italian arriving in Amsterdam would arise more suspicion but not necessarily.

Someone said earlier that for flights into Schengen, the passenger list is transmitted from the airport of departure. So if there is a reason for suspicion, I guess you are not able to sneak past border controls.

Happens quite often that people for which a search warrant has been issued are arrested upon arrival from outside Schengen (at least here in Germany). Certainly has nothing to do with bad luck, but with the authorities already awaiting that person.

[Edited 2014-03-10 08:11:58]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 08:07:14 and read 34547 times.

Quoting na (Reply 224):
If so, this event should lead to making it mandatory.

A previous post referred to an article in "The Guardian" where the author says that these days airliners should be constantly transmitting select data going to the FDR. It shouldn't be difficult to do. The article was interesting but the author doesn't seem to have heard of ACARS.

[Edited 2014-03-10 08:11:34]

[Edited 2014-03-10 08:14:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 08:09:24 and read 34017 times.

Quoting na (Reply 224):
To talk about statistics, serious accidents with modern planes are so rare that a single event like MH370 can turn a statistic around, the 777 now being lower down than the A340 or 744.

That's exactly why "safest airliner" statistics (and I use the term loosely) are rather meaningless. The 777 did not suddenly become much less safe to fly and the 340 and 744 aren't less safe than the 777 by any meaningful metric.

Too few events to be statistically significant, and accidents are not identical. AF447 made the 330s "statistics" much worse but you can hardly blame the poor airplane for pilots who do the wrong thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 08:09:57 and read 34039 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 226):
Did he mean it had VHF ACARS and not the SATCOM ACARS?

The way I understood the context of the post he was talking about SatCom. However, I have no desire to go hunting back through previous parts to this thread trying to find it.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-10 08:10:46 and read 33900 times.

It is entirely possible that the two pax traveled with more than one passport. One European one to use in Asia (where that would be less likely to be checked thoroughly) and then using something else in Europe..

Re: search area:
While the newly found debris field holds hope, I am somewhat concerned that there is no official word on searching the countryside of southern Thailand/northern Malaysia. I am flabbergasted that they search the Straits of Malaccabut seem to have spent no thought on a crash somewhere in less accessible area (where a debris field of a direct impact would be contained, not float around/spread etc)... From looking at the maps the southern Thai part is much less inhabited than northern Malaysia (which I know from personal experience has some rather sparsely populated areas, esp where it is mountainous....)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-10 08:15:52 and read 32939 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 194):
Two reasons. Transponders can misbehave and sometimes need to be power-cycled as a diagnostic step during flight. Second, circuit breakers. Any part of the electrical system needs to be able to be disconnected due to a number of reasons.

Third - and I know I said two - aircraft are not built with the assumption that flight crew will attempt to down the aircraft. While this has happened, there are valid reasons for cutting electrical power to the transponder and that is good enough.

I wonder could the transponders be powered separately by their own independent systems so that they are not vulnerable to the problems above?

And a related question, had the transponder been on, would we have been able to better locate the final position of the aircraft?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redflyer
Posted 2014-03-10 08:17:03 and read 32719 times.

Quoting redadeco (Reply 24):
Why terrorism as a 1st reason? I personally dismiss this theory. All the speculations on terrorism are centred on Uyghur muslims living in XinJiang province who currently have issues with the central Chinese government; however, why the h**k would they target the flag carrier of a Muslim country with presumably passengers sharing the same faith as them.

I would've considered terrorism as a possible route to explore if this was an Air China flight, for instance.

Terrorism on this flight because 2/3 of the passengers were Chinese. As for the Muslims who happened to have perished along with the Chinese if this were a terrorist act, well, unfortunately Muslims have killed more Muslims than non-Muslims in their fight against infidels and their government sponsors.

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 43):
An aircraft can just not disappear, even if it is blown into pieces on 35000 ft altitude. There are too many items which floats in an aircraft. Once they will be able to find the crashsite, the picture will be clearer.

This is true, and would be even more plausible if the aircraft exploded in mid-air. My bet is that the airplane was taken in a nose dive into the ocean and impacted the water relatively intact. This would mitigate the amount of the debris field that would float in the water at the point where the flight ended.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 82):
1. Hijacking, so a voluntary shutoff of the transponder and then flying the aircraft (outside of PSR coverage) to an unknown (impact) location over the ocean.

I think a terrorist hijacking or pilot suicide are probably the most plausible explanations based on what is out there so far (and, yes, it's pure speculation on my part). But I don't think anyone would have made much effort to "fly" the plane once they took control of the cockpit.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 97):
Just remembered the USAF F-16 which crashed over Adriatic sea. The debris was found the next day IIRC and it took 3 days to find the pilot's body (he died during ejection). Adriatic sea is much smaller than gulf of thailand.

Not to mention that military flights are followed far more closely by their own military than civilian flights are. I'm sure the F-16's point of impact was known pretty quickly, and it was just a matter of time before any remnants of it were picked up. Also, an F-16's footprint, intact or after a crash, would be far smaller than a 777.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 122):
If correct, this information seems to end the terrorism theory involving the two people on stolen EU passports. They were earlier booked to the same destinations on QR and EY by the 'Iranian man' but the reservations lapsed when they weren't paid for.

Why does it end the terrorism theory? All it does is imply that the Iranian middleman might be completely innocent. It doesn't mean the two people who purchased the tickets from him didn't have nefarious motivations. They may simply have not procured the cash necessary for the purchase the first time around.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 136):
I am thinking that the stolen passports are red herrings. Why would a terrorist need a stolen passport?

Because if they travel using their own true identities it might raise a red flag? Especially if their names are on some government's watch list.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 08:17:42 and read 32885 times.

Quoting Rotate (Reply 215):
Nope, that wrong. This feature of automated messages ACARS is not on all airlines, it cost money. MH doesn't have that.

I wouldn't call operating 15 A330's, 6 A380's, 63 737's, 13 (presumably 12 now) 777's as"MH not having that..".

They may have opted for not using it strictly to SAVE money..

Huge difference between 'having no money" and "saving money".

I would think at this point in the game, with so much at stake for EVERYONE (The Government's involved, the airline, the passengers' and their families, Boeing, Rolls, etc) that Boeing would have likely released SOME kind of a press-release indicating if ACARS was installed and operating on the plane, especially if it would have given any clue (even a small one) as to where to look.

There may be a lot of back-channel discussions happening that we aren't privileged to know as well though.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-10 08:19:42 and read 32379 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 223):
Most likely this is the plane from which the pic was taken:

Nice find. Based on the wing-strut, I'd agree.

However, if this particular Twin-Otter that took this pic also had floats, it poses the question why they did not land to take samples for immediate investigation.

Or maybe they did, and that picture is actually from the previous debris field that was ruled out.....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 08:21:07 and read 31903 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 230):
A previous post referred to an article in "The Guardian" where the author says that these days airliners should be constantly transmitting select data going to the FDR. It shouldn't be difficult to do. The article was interesting but the author doesn't seem to have heard of ACARS.

Apart from a seemingly general lack of knowledge on the subject matter, the author of the article is under the mistaken impression that DFDR and CVR have a role in search and rescue. They do not. The recorders are there for the investigators to find out what happened in order to make aviation safer.

Would constant transmission save lives? Doubtful, and it would be in very special cases. Thus not economically defensible with current technology. If you're going to spend money investing in aviation safety, there are other things to spend it on that would have more effect on safety. Better anti-incursion systems for many airport runways comes to mind just to name one thing.

If the recorders are not found immediately, this merely delays an investigation. It does not doom people to death. If you're at the stage where you really really need the recorders to figure out what happened, everyone on board is probably dead anyway.

Quoting AT (Reply 234):
I wonder could the transponders be powered separately by their own independent systems so that they are not vulnerable to the problems above?

Being able to power down transponders is not a problem. Transponders sometimes malfunction and need to be power cycled. Furthermore, you want the ability to power ANY electrical component down with absolute surety. It's a necessary safety feature.

You won't find any smart pilots who want to fly without being able to turn off something that may be endangering the aircraft by staying on. What if you have a short and electrical arcing without being able to kill the circuit?

Quoting AT (Reply 234):
And a related question, had the transponder been on, would we have been able to better locate the final position of the aircraft?

Most probably yes. And of course this relates back to "should the transponder be shut-offable". Since the two are somewhat mutually exclusive, it is safer to be able to shut it off and accept the occasional problem like this than to force it on and have the risk of a potentially uncontrollable electrical problem.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: mutu
Posted 2014-03-10 08:21:28 and read 32037 times.

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 108):
I don't know in what way Malaysia’s civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman addressed the press, so I hold my initial judgment, but nevertheless I find it a bit unappropriate to crack jokes in a press conference, while loved ones are waiting for answers.

Having listened to the press conference, the speaker was actually pressed hard by the audience to explain what he meant by "non asian appearance". The laughter was unfortunate but came about because he clearly had an image of Balotelli in his head to answer the question but couldnt name the player initially - fumbled around with Bartorelli and a couple of other attempts before someone helped him out

Laughter still unfortunate but a bit of context demonstrates it was not ill intended.

On the subject of the stolen passport pax, I suspect this will turn out to be coincidental and not related (I dont rule anything out yet of course) but it does raise important lessons regardless. I know there have been threads on this board criticising UK airports for rescreening transfer passengers (yes its inconvenient) but the UK authorities have always felt there is a security benefit in doing so, and perhaps one lesson is to have more standard screening practices across the globe - I understand the lost/stolen passport databse held by Interpol is largely used by USA UK Australia, so actually perhaps we dont know who is truly sitting next to us. Worth thinking about.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2014-03-10 08:22:04 and read 32667 times.

Flightglobal just posted the following image:

Quote:
MH370 hunt in perspective. Red areas are search zones. Yellow circle is search area for #AF447 on the same scale.

http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/443038630328549377/photo/1/large

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: YLWbased
Posted 2014-03-10 08:24:17 and read 32010 times.

Civil Aviation Department (CAD) of Hong Kong SAR said it had received a report from a Cathay Pacific Hong Kong-Kuala Lumpur bound flight that a large amount of debris was spotted off the coast of Vung Tau, some 500km away from the current search area. Vietnam authorities has been notified.

Source: http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/articl...sing-passenger-plane-families-grow

YLWbased

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: redadeco
Posted 2014-03-10 08:26:54 and read 30637 times.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 235):
Terrorism on this flight because 2/3 of the passengers were Chinese. As for the Muslims who happened to have perished along with the Chinese if this were a terrorist act, well, unfortunately Muslims have killed more Muslims than non-Muslims in their fight against infidels and their government sponsors.

You're assuming then that the suspects who bought their tickets one day before departure know exactly where does each passenger on MH370 come from?
Seriously…

Terrorism IMO has to be ruled out given the details we have about how the suspects planned their trip through that agency in Pattaya.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 08:27:15 and read 30668 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 240):
Flightglobal just posted the following image:

Am I to assume that "E" box to the West is the Malacca Straight? If so, WHY would they be looking there?

That's WELL West of where they were last reported...

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-10 08:27:47 and read 30693 times.

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 241):
Civil Aviation Department (CAD) of Hong Kong SAR said it had received a report from a Cathay Pacific Hong Kong-Kuala Lumpur bound flight that a large amount of debris was spotted off the coast of Vung Tau, some 500km away from the current search area. Vietnam authorities has been notified.

Source: http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/articl...-grow

And that's about the fifth time this has been mentioned in this thread...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-10 08:28:37 and read 30637 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 236):
I wouldn't call operating 15 A330's, 6 A380's, 63 737's, 13 (presumably 12 now) 777's as"MH not having that..".

They may have opted for not using it strictly to SAVE money..

Huge difference between 'having no money" and "saving money".

I would think at this point in the game, with so much at stake for EVERYONE (The Government's involved, the airline, the passengers' and their families, Boeing, Rolls, etc) that Boeing would have likely released SOME kind of a press-release indicating if ACARS was installed and operating on the plane, especially if it would have given any clue (even a small one) as to where to look.

There may be a lot of back-channel discussions happening that we aren't privileged to know as well though.

1011yyz

If you read his post with "that" referring to "ACARS" and not "money," it makes a lot more sense. Given that () and the fact that Rotate doesn't seem to write in totally perfect English, I read it that way.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: giopan1975
Posted 2014-03-10 08:30:42 and read 29865 times.

AF447 had hit water flat and in one piece and biggest part found floating was part of tail fin....it took them about 4 min to fall from cruise, no distress call made partly because they were not fully aware of the seriousness of situation until very late into 4 minute descent...any crash pattern is at play and there is some probability that nothing will ever be found floating and as clock ticks...

Story with stolen passports and connection to terrorism are all bullshit, they are fueling stolen passports story because they have nothing else to say...bomb scenario may be at play but not necessary in connection to stolen passports as people try to cheat authorities every day with false id down there every day...

What is deeply dissapointing to the aviation enthusiast is that 2014 and super dooper aviation technology cannot locate the point of a huge aircraft crash even in seconds after comm loss has been established....the myth of high tech aviation and technology is vanishing and left disgraced

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-10 08:30:50 and read 29913 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 243):
Am I to assume that "E" box to the West is the Malacca Straight? If so, WHY would they be looking there?

The Malacca Strait is actually areas A-D. E is more the South Andaman Sea.

They search(ed) there because there was suspicion that the plane turned back at some point .

Areas A-D are very busy with shipping, so any crash would likely have been noticed. Less so in area E...

In this I see that the landmass of Peninsular Malaysia was apparently included, but it's still lacking southern Thailand etc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flightsimboy
Posted 2014-03-10 08:38:04 and read 28415 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 17):
My blood ran cold when I heard the news and would have done no matter what the aircraft type was. The way this thread is going, is that people seem to think this is far more awful than anything that has happened before because it involves the 777.

Human lives have been lost and it doesn't matter one iota to the families of those involved what the aircraft type was, nor should it matter to us.

The fact of the matter is that a plane went down and we need to know why it happened and how it could have happen. Questions that should answered irrespectively. Yes, it is unlikely it was a mechanical failure but believe it or not the 777 like any other aircraft type is not invincible. No aircraft is.

Well said!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 08:38:12 and read 28500 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 236):
that Boeing would have likely released SOME kind of a press-release indicating if ACARS was installed and operating on the plane

I think that would be MH's responsibility. I believe ACARS data is proprietary.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-10 08:40:00 and read 28225 times.

I wonder if it just ended up in some remote forests of Malaysia / Thailand or possibly even Vietnam, that would explain lack of floating debris.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 08:41:41 and read 28066 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 212):
According to Mandala499 in an earlier thread, this aircraft was not SATCOM equipped.

From Flightglobal: "Flightglobal asked Malaysia Airlines about signals from the 777’s Aircraft Communications and Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS), but the carrier declined to comment citing “pending investigations” by Malaysia’s Department of Civil Aviation."

So it had ACARS apparently. At least MAS would have said it hadnt if it hadnt, dont you think. The comment by the airline points to that there are messages which are being investigated. I wonder why it should take days to do so.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 08:43:23 and read 27505 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 243):
I believe ACARS data is proprietary.

My limited knowledge on ACARS says that all transmissions are basically... public. Especially when transmitted over VHF. But some airlines do encrypt their ACARS messages, because they contain business secrets (e.g. fuel burn numbers).


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-10 08:43:28 and read 27523 times.

Quoting na (Reply 245):
From Flightglobal: "Flightglobal asked Malaysia Airlines about signals from the 777’s Aircraft Communications and Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS), but the carrier declined to comment citing “pending investigations” by Malaysia’s Department of Civil Aviation."

So it had ACARS apparently.

That's quite a leap you made. Maybe they declined comment to not have to explain the lack of ACARS at this point/to the many distressed folks...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 08:48:25 and read 26252 times.

Quoting sejtam (Reply 247):
That's quite a leap you made. Maybe they declined comment to not have to explain the lack of ACARS at this point/to the many distressed folks...

While I agree with the latter being possible I would expect flightglobal to know wether the plane had such device or not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2014-03-10 08:51:45 and read 25848 times.

To greenair:
If it is an illegal immigration scam then likely they would destroy their documents on the plane and gotten off and claimed asylum. AMS has 2 seperate areas Schengen and non-Schengen. I don't ever remember my passport being scanned @ AMS entering from non-Schengen just stamped.
It would be possible to continue on to their destinations undetected unless an agent spots that this passport had been altered. My question is why Denmark? The Danes have virtually locked down the country for new immigrants.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-10 08:54:31 and read 25301 times.

So, here at work, one ex-military guy brought up the idea of the plane being hijacked and landing in a remote location of a nearby country.

Laos or Cambodia?

But can a commercial liner go off the grid without being detected? (No ADS-B, transponder, etc)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-10 08:55:24 and read 25173 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 73):
If the plane had exploded at high altitude there would be massive amounts of debris floating--there is none which makes me think it went down relatively intact

Agreed. Right now - we know virtually nothing, but the fact that we have not found debris or witnesses and that advanced technology has indicated large high altitude explosions were not detected, I'm leaning toward some sort of crash of a relatively intact airplane.
This leads me to speculate one of the following may be possible (not an exclusive list of course and not in any order of priority.) And please remember - there is NO evidence of any of these.
- Hijacking in which a/c was diverted to some other place and crashed en-route or there.
- Failure that damaged a/c but did not make it unflyable - followed by pilots trying to get somewhere to put it down. (note, either comms out or more likely too busy). This could be either mech or terrorism related.
- Failure that did make the aircraft unflyable, but such that a crash followed a rapid decent, but intact.

Essentially it would be either CFIT or intact rapid descent/crash.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 230):
that Boeing would have likely released SOME kind of a press-release indicating if ACARS was installed and operating on the plane

Very likely they cannot do that without permission from the contracting company. They may be asking for that permission or not.

Quoting redadeco (Reply 236):
You're assuming then that the suspects who bought their tickets

And that they are suspects in a crime (related to the crash). We don't even know if there is a crime.

As time goes on and we find nothing, I'm leaning more and more toward the a/c continued for quite some distance before crashing. We may not know where to look.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-10 08:55:27 and read 25350 times.

Quoting redadeco (Reply 236):
Terrorism IMO has to be ruled out given the details we have about how the suspects planned their trip through that agency in Pattaya.

Why ruled out? It likely rules out Terrorism by these two passengers, yes, but what about all the other passengers?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-10 08:56:43 and read 25100 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 234):

That search map is crazy, its like shrugging your shoulders and saying we have no clue..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-10 08:57:43 and read 25066 times.

As the search area is being expanded (source), is submarine ops taking place to listen for the ultrasonic pinger? I recall Singapore had wanted to deploy a surface and sub-surface asset from their Navy. In the crucial week of the DFDR/CVR being activated, in case of a submerged airframe, could this help?

Which other countries have the capability to deploy sub-surface acoustic receivers? I'm curious if the various oil platform operators in the South China Sea might have recorded any incidents / observed any phenomenon - assuming the aircraft is in the sea.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: CityhopperNL
Posted 2014-03-10 08:59:16 and read 25088 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 234):
Flightglobal just posted the following image:

If this is truly the search area, including also an area far west of the Malay peninsula, as was said a few times before, than that tells me that those who are investigating have a lot more info than they are sharing with us at the moment. If you have no idea you will start to work from the point of last contact and look at any scenarios from there. Sure, it could be that the airplane turned back, but to fly another 50 minutes or so to the west that is just not logical, at least not without searching the closer on that route first, unless you have specific info that something like that happened.

I would be most curious about radar data as any other data seems to have been useless or non-existent. What does the radar data show. Is it confirmed that the plane turned back? They are still saying "may have turned back". How can it be they can't tell that for sure by now - you either have radar coverage or you have not. You see the plane descending at some point. Now as it goes under the radar, you can either search the area where it went off radar and you should be able to find wreckage very soon, or, if you don't find anything, it must have flown out of the area indicating that the plane was still ok. I am just saying that, if the latter scenario, this information is not being shared with the world at the moment.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 08:59:38 and read 25121 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 250):
But can a commercial liner go off the grid without being detected? (No ADS-B, transponder, etc)

This airplane has done it (suddenly no transponder, ADSB, etc.) so apparently the answer is "yes."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-10 08:59:52 and read 25027 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 253):
That search map is crazy, its like shrugging your shoulders and saying we have no clue..

which sums it up about correctly I'd say...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2014-03-10 09:00:24 and read 24692 times.

Quoting giopan1975 (Reply 240):
What is deeply dissapointing to the aviation enthusiast is that 2014 and super dooper aviation technology cannot locate the point of a huge aircraft crash even in seconds after comm loss has been established....the myth of high tech aviation and technology is vanishing and left disgraced

I do not agree. Vast resouces are spent on planes to not fall from the sky, and that effort has been immensely successful.

Are they "rushing" to find MH370? I think not. Then what are they doing?

I think they are looking at it as the greater picture. Does anybody hope to find someone alive? No. Does anybody assume that there is some generic fault on 777 planes which can be found in the black boxes? No. Is there any other reason (except public couriosity) which puts time pressure on them? No.

They will of course find MH370 sooner or later. And they will get the CVR and FDR data. But right now they are investigating how to make a serious and efficient search, then they will collect the right equipment from around the world, then detailed planning will take place.

It doesn't happen the way that they just scramble every piece of resource they can find and jump out. That might have happened in case there would be posibility of saving lives.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-10 09:01:52 and read 24566 times.

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 255):
those who are investigating have a lot more info than they are sharing with us at the moment.

Either that or they have nothing as well - and thus have to search anywhere it could possibly be.
They do seem reasonably sure the plane was attempting to turn. I'd like to see the radar records that imply this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: wxmeddler
Posted 2014-03-10 09:02:55 and read 24386 times.

Since nothing has been found yet... I'm going to float this.

We know that the plane turned west after it had some kind of trouble. Is it possible it crashed on land in a remote location, such as southern Cambodia?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-10 09:03:39 and read 24217 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 253):
That search map is crazy, its like shrugging your shoulders and saying we have no clue..

When you take the "what caused this/what happened?" speculation away, "we have no clue" is probably a pretty accurate assessment of what is actually known at this point. The plane used to be there - and now it's not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2014-03-10 09:04:40 and read 23883 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 256):

Quoting indcwby (Reply 250):
But can a commercial liner go off the grid without being detected? (No ADS-B, transponder, etc)

This airplane has done it (suddenly no transponder, ADSB, etc.) so apparently the answer is "yes

But could a plane fly over land without such detection?
I guess the Malaysian authorities seem to think its possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 09:04:47 and read 23808 times.

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 254):
Which other countries have the capability to deploy sub-surface acoustic receivers?

Probably most. All you have to do is throw a suitable receiver over the side into the water.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 09:05:10 and read 23985 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 260):

The "turn west" could simply be the plane falling out of the sky.

FR24 has the last three headings as 25, 28, and then 40 degrees.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: TreeHillRavens
Posted 2014-03-10 09:05:11 and read 23971 times.

Quoting Rotate (Reply 215):
Nope, that wrong. This feature of automated messages ACARS is not on all airlines, it cost money. MH doesn't have that.
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 218):
According to Mandala499 in an earlier thread, this aircraft was not SATCOM equipped.

But according to MAS officials, MAS B777-200ER is equipped with VHF, HF, SATCOM, ACARS, CPDLC.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 09:06:42 and read 23612 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 260):
We know that the plane turned west after it had some kind of trouble. Is it possible it crashed on land in a remote location, such as southern Cambodia?

If it crashed on land, the ELT (Emergency Locator Transmitter) should have been activated. And that is something that cannot be turned off by the crew. It is still possible that it has crash landed and the ELTs have failed, though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-10 09:08:49 and read 23369 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 252):
Why ruled out? It likely rules out Terrorism by these two passengers, yes, but what about all the other passengers?

Long time (10+ years) stalker, first time poster.

I think there’s a lot of really um… imaginative theories and speculation right now, but when we find it (and we will, of that I have not a shred of doubt in my mind, just think of KI 574), it’ll really come down to something mundane. One of the more straightforward ones to my mind is after reaching cruise altitude, the captain leaves to use the head, the now cold-soaked repair on the right wing gives way, the FO panics trying to correct, and flips the plane. ICARI’s about as far from land as you can be in the Gulf of Thailand, so without any external reference and a stalling plane, the FO CIFTed the jet trying to go “up”. Or there’s fuel leak, and they tried to do a Gimli Glider without success, with the FO trying to find a field while the captain’s simultaneously dead sticking and trying to restart.

There’s a lot of relatively mundane possibilities that can lead to a crash. My money’s on the false passports just being the usual illegal immigration racket, rather than terrorism - KUL-PEK-AMS is much cheaper than BKK-AMS. I know terrorism has always been in vogue, but the sad truth is that it’s almost always something much much more straightforward.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-10 09:10:13 and read 24553 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked down for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 10:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)


Thanks and regards,

SA7700


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