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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-10 09:07:07 and read 99981 times.

Due to length part 9 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 10.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)



-There's no solid evidence other that 9M-MRO remains missing.

-There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO.

-The debris field, when it's finally located might be our first clue as to what happened. But even that is being distorted by the ocean as the hours pass.

-We still have the barest of info.

-There were no calls for help, and apparently data and radar were lost around 41 minutes into the flight near IGARI waypoint.

-Several countries are assisting in the search effort.

-At present a government cover-up seems unlikely.

*** Extracts from several members ***


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. Enjoy the forums!


Regards and thanks so much for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 09:13:19 and read 100168 times.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 265):
But according to MAS officials, MAS B777-200ER is equipped with VHF, HF, SATCOM, ACARS, CPDLC.

Then I think the official last position is from ACARS, the one near IGARI, and ACARS was otherwise unhelpful.

The search of the North Malacca area remains very odd...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 09:16:12 and read 99743 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 1):
Then I think the official last position is from ACARS

I don't believe any ACARS data (if it exists) has been released. Are you thinking of ADS-B?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: neutrino
Posted 2014-03-10 09:16:53 and read 99791 times.

I have been following this subject up to thread 6 so not aware whether the following has been mentioned.
According to a Straits Times article, "some of the MAS' team of 'special assistance' staff spoke no Mandarin and only rudimentary English". This fact, among others, had exacerbated the tension in the holding room for MH370 passengers' families in Beijing.
The question is what is the 'special assistance' team's mission? Am I wrong to assume that the primary, at at least one of the main purpose, is to render consolatory support, to show that MAS care, a personal touch so to speak. So having non-Mandarin speakers with laughable English skills just do not hack it. Given MAS' reputation for its army of unproductive hanger-ons, are they "selected" because of their "connections" to have a "free holiday" in Beijing? I won't be surprised if that's the case.


*My above post appeared in thread 9 a few minutes after it was locked, so re-posting here as the previous one is likely to be deleted for housekeeping reasons.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2014-03-10 09:25:27 and read 98815 times.

I'd like to know the reasoning behind searching the South Andaman Sea at all.

It is hard to see MAS370 making a sweeping turn to port over the Gulf of Thailand, crossing the isthmus of Thailand around Phuket area or the Malaysian peninsula, and crashing in either the South Andaman Sea or the Strait of Malacca.

From last reported position this could be a hours flight time or more in an almost opposite direction.

What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2014-03-10 09:26:47 and read 98588 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 1):

The search of the North Malacca area remains very odd...

Indeed, this is very odd, and I can only imagine that there must be some information--not yet released to the public--that would lead them to look in that direction, and at that particular area. It would suggest to me that analysis of primary radar returns, or perhaps some other data, has indicated that the aircraft continued to fly for quite some time in that direction after its transponder ceased to transmit its location. Which in turn would seem to indicate that the aircraft did not suffer a sudden disintegration at cruising altitude along its planned route. Very interesting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: STEVE7E7
Posted 2014-03-10 09:27:45 and read 98542 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 4):
I'd like to know the reasoning behind searching the South Andaman Sea at all.

It is hard to see MAS370 making a sweeping turn to port over the Gulf of Thailand, crossing the isthmus of Thailand around Phuket area or the Malaysian peninsula, and crashing in either the South Andaman Sea or the Strait of Malacca.

From last reported position this could be a hours flight time or more in an almost opposite direction.

What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?

Maybe the authorities are aware of certain information that has yet to be disclosed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: gosimeon
Posted 2014-03-10 09:28:36 and read 98305 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 4):
What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?

They authorities either have info they are keeping to themselves, or they are running out of places to search. It's night time there again too, which won't help.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: questions
Posted 2014-03-10 09:31:33 and read 98078 times.

Could an event have been so catastrophic that 1) remains of the aircraft, passengers, and cargo are extremely small and 2) given the cruising altitude of the aircraft, a typical debris field will not be found? If so, what kind of event would cause that to happen?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2014-03-10 09:36:28 and read 97248 times.

Indeed the only possible rational conclusion as to why they are searching there is: they are withholding information from the public domain.

If the aircraft does not turn up in the western search area, I for one would like it made known why they were searching in that area.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Quantos
Posted 2014-03-10 09:38:48 and read 96987 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
Could an event have been so catastrophic that 1) remains of the aircraft, passengers, and cargo are extremely small and 2) given the cruising altitude of the aircraft, a typical debris field will not be found? If so, what kind of event would cause that to happen?

Hardly see how that would be possible. You're referring to a complete vaporization of the aircraft and its content. Realistically, the most devastating incidents that are brought up as theories are terrorism, or an unknown structural failure. In the case of a terrorist attack, you'd have to imagine the explosive used would be of small size: enough to critically affect the aircraft, but reasonably easy to smuggle on board. As for a structural failure of unknown cause, what could really be the most devastating circumstances? Even a sudden explosion and subsequent decompression would probably leave huge chunks of the plane more or less in one piece (tail, portions of fuselage, etc).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ultrapig
Posted 2014-03-10 09:39:05 and read 96950 times.

This must have been asked and answer but its too hard to search-
Is there any scenario where the plane would have:

Crashed (or "landed") in the sea and simpy sank without leaving a trace?

In other words if one assume that the plane ended its fligth in the water can we asmem debris will eventually be located?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-10 09:39:27 and read 96940 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 4):
What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?

Because there is obviously a chance (based on information not given to us) they may have turned around...

Remember, there is likely to be a lot of information that is not in public domain - and rightfully so - it has absolutely nothing to do with us. Especially if the military are involved and had in fact tracked *something*.

As a search mission co-ordinator, I most certainly task SAR assets to an area unless I have some shred of credible information... It might turn out to be a false lead, or was something else that got tracked...

But something has given them reason to search there...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: texl1649
Posted 2014-03-10 09:40:09 and read 96999 times.

They seem to be hoping desperately that it didn't go down in the jungles north of Saigon. There is really very little to be gained by the secrecy if they have evidence/rationale for going to the Andaman Sea. What "contact" are they indicating here? Was this the rumored attempt by Vietnamese ATC to communicate/get MH370 to check in?

"The mystery surrounding the airliner's last minutes deepened after Malaysian military officials said yesterday that the plane may have turned back from its scheduled route just before contact with it was lost.

Rodzali Daud, the Royal Malaysian Air Force chief, told reporters at a news conference that radar recordings had revealed the possibility that the aircraft had turned back from its scheduled flight path.

But Malaysia Airlines chief executive Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said the Boeing 777's systems would have set off alarm bells.

"When there is an air turn-back the pilot would be unable to proceed as planned," he said, adding authorities were "quite puzzled" over the situation. "

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 09:41:34 and read 96638 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 2):
I don't believe any ACARS data (if it exists) has been released.

Not to us, but they would have the last position from ACARS, and that is the position they would use. It should be roughly the same as the FR24 data.

A SAR message went out that gave the IGARI waypoint coordinates as the spot, which differs from FR24's last position data slightly.

We can use FR24, but I doubt the official investigation is using it.

So I think they got coordinates from somewhere. Logically it would be ACARS.

Of course, that idea could be totally wrong.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hoya
Posted 2014-03-10 09:42:03 and read 96293 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 9):
If the aircraft does not turn up in the western search area, I for one would like it made known why they were searching in that area.

What are the currents in that region? Perhaps looking at the currents and seeing how much time has elapsed since the dissapearance, it's probably safe to assume that the majority of the floating debris won't be found where the plane went down (if it went down in the water), but rather where the current has taken it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-10 09:44:33 and read 95935 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
Could an event have been so catastrophic that 1) remains of the aircraft, passengers, and cargo are extremely small and 2) given the cruising altitude of the aircraft, a typical debris field will not be found? If so, what kind of event would cause that to happen?

I have difficulties to imagine an event happening at cruising altitude that could crush a whole airliner into very small parts. The SR MD-11 was, but it happened when it hit the water with tremendous forces.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: anstar
Posted 2014-03-10 09:45:42 and read 95950 times.

So it now seems that the tickets of the stolen passport holders were bought with cash the day before.

CNN is saying it was an iranian man that bought the tickets. One of the men on CCTV using the passports was of African decent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: asuflyer
Posted 2014-03-10 09:46:29 and read 95567 times.

I think that in the case of this crash the Vietnamese and Malaysian authorities are simply unequipped to deal with a disaster of this scale. The fact that the search area set by the Malaysia is extremely large is an indication that they really have no idea where the aircraft could be. Also the Malaysian government quickly responding to all the Vietnamese reports as being false thus far, and the Ballotelli comment, just are bizzare.

From the pictures of the Vietnamese Navy, the technology that they are using to find the plane seems very primitive, there is a photo of the admiral using a point and shoot cameras to photograph the ocean and another photo of the Navy in a room, planning search and rescue efforts without a single computer in sight, demonstrates lack of capabilities in realistically finding the aircraft in such a large search area.

Unlike in the AF 447 crash where the search efforts were a joint effort by the Brazilians, and U.S and the investigation was a joint French-Brazilian effort, it seems in this case the cooperation and sharing of information is minimal between the countries involved in the search, which would be one of the reasons the Chinese government is becoming increasingly frustrated at the search effort.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2014-03-10 09:46:54 and read 95575 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 9):
Indeed the only possible rational conclusion as to why they are searching there is: they are withholding information from the public domain.

If the aircraft does not turn up in the western search area, I for one would like it made known why they were searching in that area.

I have now seen in several news sources that the new search area is based on analysis of Malaysian military radar, which indicates that the aircraft may have turned around and flown in that direction.

Of course this is just speculation, but if that is in fact what happened, it would seem more likely that this was a deliberate act in which the transponder was intentionally disabled in order to obscure the aircraft's location and direction of travel. Perhaps I am missing something, but I'm having a hard time imagining a mechanical issue that would cause the transponder to stop transmitting, and prevent all radio/data communications, but nevertheless allow the aircraft to continue to fly for that long.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: giopan1975
Posted 2014-03-10 09:48:36 and read 95135 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 12):
But something has given them reason to search there...

The posibility of a high jack, what else??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-10 09:49:15 and read 95146 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 14):
Not to us, but they would have the last position from ACARS, and that is the position they would use

There may be a position report from acars, but whether it is the last position of the aircraft is debatable. I think (and I am open to correction here) that acars (like ADS-C), doesn't send out constant position reports, but rather after passing a reporting point or after a specific time...

So if things went rotten exactly at a reporting point, then its likely they will be the same, otherwise there is a discrepancy.

Also, glide range can be upwards of 100nm, so it rapidly becomes a huge area. If they were still under power but no electronics, then well its a super mega huge area...  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: wingbuff
Posted 2014-03-10 09:49:56 and read 95135 times.

But even with whatever currents in that area, at least one boat would've stumbled upon some piece of debris. The Gulf of Thailand, where the plane went missing, is not that big. At least not as big as the Atlantic, as was the case with AF447. And does it bug anybody else that the maximum depth there is less than 100m, yet still nothing has been found?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 09:53:55 and read 94377 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 21):

Would it report a waypoint like IGARI, when crossed? Although I'm not sure 9M-MRO crossed that point.

Maybe they took the ACARS last report, and the FR24 last report and decided it must be close?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-10 09:53:56 and read 94409 times.

One of the countries involved should probably deploy an aircraft carrier. It probably would be faster to swarm the sea/ocean out there with aircraft from a floating platform out at sea than having land based aircraft head out from land, scour an area and head back to land.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flymeariver
Posted 2014-03-10 09:55:30 and read 97099 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 19):
I have now seen in several news sources that the new search area is based on analysis of Malaysian military radar, which indicates that the aircraft may have turned around and flown in that direction.

Of course this is just speculation, but if that is in fact what happened, it would seem more likely that this was a deliberate act in which the transponder was intentionally disabled in order to obscure the aircraft's location and direction of travel.

This scenario raises a host of other questions if this is indeed the case. If the plane was in fact hijacked and flown back toward Malaysia without an active transponder, what's to say then that the plane didn't continue further over the Indian Ocean? There would be no reliable way of necessarily knowing *when* it went down, just the direction it was going before they lost track of it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-10 09:55:39 and read 96646 times.

Quoting asuflyer (Reply 18):
planning search and rescue efforts without a single computer in sight

I never planned a SAR mission with a computer... I worked with aeronautical charts and whizwheels and rulers and pencils.. It might simplify some tasks, however it is definitely not necessary...

Quoting asuflyer (Reply 18):
demonstrates lack of capabilities in realistically finding the aircraft in such a large search area

Have you planned a SAR mission to make that statement?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LXLucien
Posted 2014-03-10 09:55:50 and read 100366 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 14):

We can use FR24, but I doubt the official investigation is using it.

Yes, as FR24 released this weekend, the data is very inaccurate!

Quoting FR24.com:
The ADS-B transponder of an aircraft is transmitting data twice per second. FR24 saves data every 10-60 second depending on altitude. On cruising altitude data is normally saved once per 60 seconds. By analyzing all our databases and logs we have managed to recover about 2 signals per minute for the last 10 minutes.

We know from the AF flight that in one minute, a lot of things can happen.


Other question:
Is it possible that the sea can "swallow" a whole 777? I mean if the A/C impacts the water at a certain angle so that it stays intact but sinks like a boat with a hole. If the A/C was already destroyed in the air, the debris would have been spotted for sure as the area would cover many square mi/km.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: dtfg
Posted 2014-03-10 09:57:35 and read 99616 times.

I don't know if this had been mentioned in the previous parts but I have heard that the searching area will be expanded to as far as the Straits of Malacca .

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/ma...370-expanded-to-straits-of-malacca

I really don't understand this because if the plane is presumed to crush there in the Straits of Malacca, it must had turned around to the opposite direction and flown all the way back through Malaysia soil without being detected by any ground radar.

What the hell was happening...

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:03:02]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 09:58:30 and read 99068 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 19):
I'm having a hard time imagining a mechanical issue that would cause the transponder to stop transmitting, and prevent all radio/data communications, but nevertheless allow the aircraft to continue to fly for that long.

Plus there are standard procedures for a flight crew to follow to get the airplane landed if it goes totally NORDO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-10 09:58:43 and read 99316 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 1):
Then I think the official last position is from ACARS, the one near IGARI, and ACARS was otherwise unhelpful.

The experts keep repeating that there were data being transmitted from the aircraft until it went missing. I just heard Mary Schiavo an hour back on CNN say that. She did not mention ACARS, but she clearly indicated that the plane was transmitting data- that apparently was unremarkable- and then it just vanished. That is what is, as I understand, baffling and perplexing to not only us, but experts as well.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 09:58:45 and read 99271 times.

Remember we are still waiting information about the debris field the CX HKG-KUL flight saw off Vietnam. It appears outside the search area. Hopefully they are sending ships there now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 09:58:56 and read 99122 times.

What is the hijacker's point, going all the way back across and then ending up in the water anyway?

Seems like if you bother to take over and then start to maneuver, you have a goal in mind of a place to land or a place to crash into.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: questions
Posted 2014-03-10 10:01:21 and read 98579 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 19):
I have now seen in several news sources that the new search area is based on analysis of Malaysian military radar, which indicates that the aircraft may have turned around and flown in that direction.
Quoting flymeariver (Reply 25):
If the plane was in fact hijacked and flown back toward Malaysia without an active transponder, what's to say then that the plane didn't continue further over the Indian Ocean? There would be no reliable way of necessarily knowing *when* it went down, just the direction it was going before they lost track of it.

Would "military radar" or other tracking devices be able to provide data as to path and potential crash site or destination if the transponder was turned off?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-10 10:01:44 and read 98891 times.

I'm unclear on this but it appears like the latest potential debris field (reported here - http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0 - and posted numerous times in prior threads) is outside of the current already-expanded search area by a pretty significant margin - is that right?

If so, it would stand to reason that either the new debris field is another false lead or the (still largely undisclosed) rationale for expanding the search westward was based on a false lead. Not that leads can't be false - most are of course. But if the new debris field is real, it really begs the question of why the search went west.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-10 10:02:15 and read 98673 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 24):
One of the countries involved should probably deploy an aircraft carrier. It probably would be faster to swarm the sea/ocean out there with aircraft from a floating platform out at sea than having land based aircraft head out from land, scour an area and head back to land.

As far as I know, the only country in the area with an operational aircraft carrier is Thailand which has one that happens to be the smallest aircraft carrier in the world (the HTMS Chakri Naruebet). It is not like a lot of countries could afford a fleet of aircraft carriers like the US. Which begs the question - where is the nearest US carrier at this moment? In Japan?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-10 10:03:31 and read 98581 times.

I don't know what to make of this, nineteen families claim to have called their relative's phones to hear ringing but no answer: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/missing-mal...dium=social&utm_campaign=ibtimesuk

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-10 10:04:22 and read 98412 times.

WHAT ABOUT A VERY SOPHISTICATED LIFE INSURANCE PLOY.

Some Things that point this way.

1) The perpetrator would want to have authorities NOT find an intact plane so as to not find evidence of deliberate sabotage.

2) The Perp. would have to disable the passengers and then enter the crew area, I don't think it can be done by one person.

3) The Perp. would want to crash the plane at night. and our of the way. So after the crew is disabled, fly it to low altitude
for hundreds of nautical miles, and then crash it. (in deeper waters than the normal course of the flight.

4) The Perp would have to know the 777 communications, transponders cut offs, auto pilot disable, Flight sim training.
I Think step 2 is the hardest to imagine.

Beyond the above theory rank the following probs.

1) Electrical failure followed by fire in the in cabin/coclpit Plane flew for a while off course. No communtications possible

2) Computer flies the air craft of course and dives below radar into ocean within 80 NM of last position. No time and too low for
pilots to communicate to controlling authority to busy fighting plane.

3) Undetected wing root damage from last repair/collision event. Partial failure sends plane out of course, then total failure of
wing. Why no communitcaitons.

4) Terrorism, suicide, not as likely, Bomb Would have left the debris scattered Would have been seen by now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SLCPilot
Posted 2014-03-10 10:04:36 and read 98205 times.

The captain has been talked about. Do we know anything at all about the FO? The ability to disappear and fly the aircraft for some time is a skill that probably only the crew would have. It seems to me like possible deliberate crew action based on the lack of wreckage near the last reported location. It honestly wouldn't surprise me now if they found the plane floating in the middle of the Indian Ocean!

SLCPilot

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2014-03-10 10:07:06 and read 98029 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 12):
they may have turned around
Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 19):
Of course this is just speculation, but if that is in fact what happened, it would seem more likely that this was a deliberate act in which the transponder was intentionally disabled in order to obscure the aircraft's location and direction of travel. Perhaps I am missing something, but I'm having a hard time imagining a mechanical issue that would cause the transponder to stop transmitting, and prevent all radio/data communications, but nevertheless allow the aircraft to continue to fly for that long.

This is what I am alluding to, if in fact the airplane crashed in the Andaman Sea. There are few reasons why the pilots would turn upwards of 120 degrees, and practically overfly a series of perfectly good airports (HKT, LGK, KUL) to crash land west of the Malay Peninsula. It just makes no sense. From their last known point, in an immediate emergency why not land at VCA or SGN, or turn around and land at TGG?

Quoting hoya (Reply 15):
but rather where the current has taken it

If the a/c crashed in the Gulf of Thailand or the South China Sea, only teleportation could take the remains to the Strait of Malacca or the Andaman Sea.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-10 10:11:02 and read 96555 times.

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 11):
Crashed (or "landed") in the sea and simpy sank without leaving a trace?

Absence(as of now) of large debris field could be a sign of water landing and quickly sink. If it disintegrated at FL350 or went into deep dive there will be debris floating or coming ashore by now. If it flew towards open ocean after loosing contact it will take much longer to find it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-10 10:11:02 and read 97094 times.

There is an update on avherald:

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-10 10:11:07 and read 96572 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 37):
I don't know what to make of this, nineteen families claim to have called their relative's phones to hear ringing but no answer

Not only family members but crew members too.

To this, Dunleavy replied that MAS was calling the mobile phones of the crew members as well, which were ringing, and that he had given the numbers to Chinese investigators.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-10 10:11:45 and read 96296 times.

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 39):
WHAT ABOUT A VERY SOPHISTICATED LIFE INSURANCE PLOY.

I think there are a lot easier ways to run an insurance scam than that, and many of them don't involve killing hundreds of innocent people (or even yourself).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: wingbuff
Posted 2014-03-10 10:11:50 and read 96360 times.

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 27):
Other question:
Is it possible that the sea can "swallow" a whole 777? I mean if the A/C impacts the water at a certain angle so that it stays intact but sinks like a boat with a hole. If the A/C was already destroyed in the air, the debris would have been spotted for sure as the area would cover many square mi/km.

A/C are not knife-sharp, water is stilll surface, and any impact with it would've still resulted in some destruction. And another thing, the Gulf in that area is quite shallow,

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:12:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-10 10:12:02 and read 96430 times.

Quoting asuflyer (Reply 18):

I think that in the case of this crash the Vietnamese and Malaysian authorities are simply unequipped to deal with a disaster of this scale. The fact that the search area set by the Malaysia is extremely large is an indication that they really have no idea where the aircraft could be.

Harsh. Did Steve Fossets disappearance make the US authorities "unequipped"? They have limited data, they can't just magic it up. AF447 surface wreckage was found relatively quickly thanks to a system principally used for maintenance alerts, but it still took 2 years to find the submerged wreckage.

They're clearly focussing their search on extrapolating from the last known position in the east, and based on some data (it would seem to be military radar) in the west. They're co-ordinating the activities of many vessels and aircraft from many nations, and we don't have enough data to judge them. Their communication could be better, but at the end of the day PR won't find the plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-10 10:12:24 and read 97342 times.

Nick Robertson on CNN is reporting right now that someone by the name of Mr. Khadem Ali (spelling ?) purchased the two tickets for two travelers that we have been talking about. Mr. Ali is apparently an "established customer" at the travel agency in Pataya and is of Iranian descent. Mr. Ali has purchased tickets from this travel agency in the past.

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:14:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: airbazar
Posted 2014-03-10 10:13:52 and read 97033 times.

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 40):
The captain has been talked about. Do we know anything at all about the FO? The ability to disappear and fly the aircraft for some time is a skill that probably only the crew would have. It seems to me like possible deliberate crew action based on the lack of wreckage near the last reported location. It honestly wouldn't surprise me now if they found the plane floating in the middle of the Indian Ocean!

  
This has been my theory from day 1.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ah414211
Posted 2014-03-10 10:14:51 and read 96157 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 37):

I don't know what to make of this, nineteen families claim to have called their relative's phones to hear ringing but no answer: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/missing-mal...dium=social&utm_campaign=ibtimesuk

The same claims were made when Air France 447 disappeared, and we know how that ended up, so it really doesn't mean anything.....Sadly, I think it's just the families looking for a glimmer of hope at this point  

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:19:02]

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:19:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 10:17:21 and read 95197 times.

Quoting SA7700 (Thread starter):
-There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO.

And there´s no indication it was not. The airline simply says no comment we´re investigating (according to flightglobal), which to me sounds more like ACARS was active and they dont want to tell anything yet, or they are afraid to tell the public that this otherwise oh so modern plane doesnt have it.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
But Malaysia Airlines chief executive Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said the Boeing 777's systems would have set off alarm bells.

Which I read as: yes the plane had ACARS.
Which leads to:

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 7):
They authorities either have info they are keeping to themselves, or they are running out of places to search.
Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 12):
Remember, there is likely to be a lot of information that is not in public domain - and rightfully so - it has absolutely nothing to do with us.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-10 10:17:55 and read 95307 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 44):
Not only family members but crew members too.

To this, Dunleavy replied that MAS was calling the mobile phones of the crew members as well, which were ringing, and that he had given the numbers to Chinese investigators.

I remember someone claimed just the same in case of AF447. Not sure if it would really mean the phones are intact somewhere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-10 10:18:39 and read 94955 times.

If the point where the heading seems to have changed to 40deg is IGARI, then that may not be much of a lead as it seems it took a turn towards 037deg in the previous days:



https://twitter.com/AviationSafety/status/442639049207996416/photo/1/large

But then why didn't it follow the established airways?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hoya
Posted 2014-03-10 10:18:43 and read 94343 times.

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 46):
A/C are not knife-sharp, water is stilll surface, and any impact with it would've still resulted in some destruction. And another thing, the Gulf in that area is quite shallow

US 1549 stayed intact when it hit the Hudson. It floated for a while too. Then again, it was a mostly controlled water landing, and the pilots had some time to issue distress calls, but those calls were also very short as the crew focused all its energy on landing in the water safely.

Let's just assume MH flight landed on the water intact. Should've given plenty of time for people to escape on life rafts, unless the water flooded in when the wrong exit doors where opened. Still, should've given time for pilots to issue a distress call.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2014-03-10 10:18:45 and read 94228 times.

Quoting flymeariver (Reply 25):
This scenario raises a host of other questions if this is indeed the case. If the plane was in fact hijacked and flown back toward Malaysia without an active transponder, what's to say then that the plane didn't continue further over the Indian Ocean? There would be no reliable way of necessarily knowing *when* it went down, just the direction it was going before they lost track of it.

All true, unless the radar showed it going down into the sea somewhere in that area.

Quoting questions (Reply 34):
Would "military radar" or other tracking devices be able to provide data as to path and potential crash site or destination if the transponder was turned off?

Primary radar, in theory, should show the location and path of a flying object regardless of whether it has a transponder--it's simply radio waves that bounce off a target and return. It just takes a bit more analysis.

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 39):
WHAT ABOUT A VERY SOPHISTICATED LIFE INSURANCE PLOY.

This has crossed my mind too, and I'm sure investigators are looking into who might stand to benefit financially from a crash. IF this was a deliberate act, and IF the aircraft was intentionally flown somewhere west of Malaysia, it would appear that someone went to great lengths to conceal the "evidence."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: trnswrld
Posted 2014-03-10 10:20:58 and read 94092 times.

The phone ringing thing is kind of interesting, but do we know for certain what would happen when you call a cell phone that has been destroyed? Do they just ring? I know a cell phone that's turned off typically goes right to voicemail., but never thought what would happen if the phone has been destroyed. I suppose it should act like the phone is turned off and just go to voicemail? I dunno.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-10 10:21:49 and read 94217 times.

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 39):
WHAT ABOUT A VERY SOPHISTICATED LIFE INSURANCE PLOY

This is essentially a suicide hijacking. The movie Airport aside, most suicidal people are more focused on themselves and either represent a plea for help (women), or an intent to suicide (men). I think the sophistication required for this is not typical of suicide. The most likely suicide would be one of the pilots - and I've seen no data that would indicate or support that.
----

Right now - we know virtually nothing, but the fact that we have not found debris or witnesses and that advanced technology has indicated large high altitude explosions were not detected, I'm leaning toward some sort of crash of a relatively intact airplane. The extended search area lends credence to this. And, no, I'm not buying all the discussions about government cover ups. To many different, and not particularly cooperative, governments involved. It would leak. Evidence of criminal activity is also problematic as a factor in not releasing data. More likely, if they had any real evidence of criminal activity - we would be hearing it quickly and loudly.

I rather think we have a bunch of people -perhaps not well coordinated - doing their best to find a sign of the a/c.

Note - to think a multinational SAR involving countries that do not typically cooperate well, will be well coordinated is unrealistic. Having been involved in major regional incidents that involve entities that are trying to coordinate, and seeing how that coordination can fail in the chaos of an emergency - I would be very surprised to see a smooth, cooperative SAR. Even if the groups involved are trying to coordinate. The number of countries/agencies involved makes this worse.

All this leads me to speculate one of the following may be possible (not an exclusive list of course and not in any order of priority.) And please remember - there is NO evidence of any of these.
- Hijacking in which a/c was diverted to some other place and crashed en-route or there.
- Failure that damaged a/c but did not make it unflyable - followed by pilots trying to get somewhere to put it down. (note, either comms out or more likely too busy). This could be either mech or terrorism related.
- Failure that did make the aircraft unflyable, but such that a crash followed a rapid decent, but intact.

Essentially it would be either CFIT or intact rapid descent/crash - and potentially not near expected positions.

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:23:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flymeariver
Posted 2014-03-10 10:22:32 and read 93607 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 56):
All true, unless the radar showed it going down into the sea somewhere in that area.

But without a transponder, how would they know the plane was going "down" per se, since altitude data is transmitted via Mode C transponder. Without that, all you can really see is an object on the scope, at best...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 10:22:36 and read 93886 times.

Here is a short re-cap of the alternatives based on theories presented earlier postings in no particular order:

1) Catastophical structural or mechanical failure: would explain why loss of the transponder and no distress signal, but hard to explain why debris has not been found near the last recorded location. In less severe failures where the plane flew substantially further, the crew should have had time to issue a distress signal.

2) Bomb (either in the luggage or by a person): same as above

3) Hijack and crashing the plane: the crew should have had time make a distress signal or transmit hijacker demands, does not explain turning off the transponder and ACARS

4) Suicidal pilot: one of the pilots first turning off the transponder and ACARS, then flying and crashing the plane into the sea. Does not explain how the other pilot is incapacitated.

5) Hypoxia: does not explain why loss of the transponder

6) Successful or almost successful landing somewhere: does not explain why no distress signal; should have been noticed by primary radars and local population

7) Successful or almost successful ditching somewhere: does not explain why no distress signal; there should still be some floating debris

8) Meteors, missiles etc.: extremely unlikely

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-10 10:23:07 and read 93512 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 36):
As far as I know, the only country in the area with an operational aircraft carrier is

India & China also i think have operational aircraft carriers (http://www.forbes.com/sites/donaldkirk/2013/11/17/soviet-era-aircraft-carrier-buoys-india-naval-strength-against-china/). But if a US aircraft carrier from the Pacific fleet is closer then a US ship would make better sense. Well, i think more the carriers the better to cover wider areas in the search.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FlyPIJets
Posted 2014-03-10 10:23:14 and read 93825 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 44):
Quoting slinky09 (Reply 37):
I don't know what to make of this, nineteen families claim to have called their relative's phones to hear ringing but no answer

Not only family members but crew members too.

To this, Dunleavy replied that MAS was calling the mobile phones of the crew members as well, which were ringing, and that he had given the numbers to Chinese investigators.

Must be in the to rule out someone answering a phone. The ringing is not significant, but, someone answering the phone would be.

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:24:40]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-10 10:23:21 and read 93238 times.

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 39):
WHAT ABOUT A VERY SOPHISTICATED LIFE INSURANCE PLOY.

I posted this in pt. 9 regarding some terrorism suggestions, but I think it got clipped.

I think there’s a lot of really imaginative theories and speculation right now, but when we find it (and we will, of that I have not a shred of doubt in my mind, just think of Adam Air 574), it’ll really come down to something mundane. One of the more straightforward ones to my mind is after reaching cruise altitude, the captain leaves to use the head, the now cold-soaked repair on the right wing gives way, the FO panics trying to correct, and flips the plane. IGARI’s about as far from land as you can be in the Gulf of Thailand, so without any external reference and a stalling plane, the FO CFITed the jet into water trying to go “up”. Or there’s fuel leak, and they tried to do a Gimli Glider without success, with the FO trying to find a field while the captain’s simultaneously dead sticking and trying to restart.

There’s a lot of relatively mundane possibilities that can lead to a crash. My money’s on the false passports just being the usual illegal immigration racket, rather than terrorism - KUL-PEK-AMS is much cheaper than BKK-AMS. I know terrorism has always been in vogue, but the sad truth is that it’s almost always something much much more straightforward.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: questions
Posted 2014-03-10 10:24:44 and read 93389 times.

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 40):
Do we know anything at all about the FO?

According to several sources:
Fariq Ab Hamid, 27 years old; started working for MH in 2007; had 2,763 flying hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: apfpilot
Posted 2014-03-10 10:25:43 and read 93240 times.

I didn't see this new update from Avhearald discussed:

Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.

Vietnam's Headquarters for the Search and Rescue operation of MH-370 confirmed receiving the report by Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center stating that a Hong Kong based airliner reported a large field of debris while enroute on airway L642. A Thai cargo ship in the area was asked for assistance and has set course to the area but did not find anything unusual so far. A second vessel asked for assistance did find some debris. Following this finding Vietnam's Maritime Search and Rescue Services (MRCC) dispatched a ship to the debris field.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: sassiciai
Posted 2014-03-10 10:28:12 and read 92462 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 41):
This is what I am alluding to, if in fact the airplane crashed in the Andaman Sea. There are few reasons why the pilots would turn upwards of 120 degrees, and practically overfly a series of perfectly good airports (HKT, LGK, KUL) to crash land west of the Malay Peninsula. It just makes no sense. From their last known point, in an immediate emergency why not land at VCA or SGN, or turn around and land at TGG?

As much as I think it unlikely, dont forget the precedent of the JAL B747 that had a sudden failure of the rear bulkhead that destroyed the controls on the tail of the aircraft, which then flew around in an uncontrollable manner for several hours, I think, before finally impacting a mountainside. In that case, the crew tried "everything", but could still not regain control. Again, IIRC, they could only control horizontal axes by engine throttles.

If "something" rendered MN370 as uncontrollable as the JAL aircraft, and disabled some/all electronics, then ..........

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FlyPIJets
Posted 2014-03-10 10:28:18 and read 92502 times.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 62):
Must be in the to rule out someone answering a phone. The ringing is not significant, but, someone answering the phone would be.

I take that back - if the cell handset rings, then you can tell what tower contacted it.


However, just because you hear the "ringing" sound when you dial the phone doesn't mean the handset was actually ringing.

Interesting, indeed, they are trying this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: antskip
Posted 2014-03-10 10:28:28 and read 92535 times.

If it was a deliberate act of deception to "hide" the plane, what would that a skilled professional aviator do to avoid detection, and where would they go locally to make detection of flight path and eventual landing difficult?

PS Post 65 above of reported debris field - any follow up there? or is that more old news...?

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:37:33]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: KochamLOT
Posted 2014-03-10 10:29:33 and read 92171 times.

I do not wish to cause trouble with this next speculation or thought and if this is not in the realm of possibility please kindly tell me so.. days prior to this accident someone posted that a Korean 777 was possibly in the trajectory of a missile. Korean Airlines was also a casualty during the cold war as well due to a a similar incident.

How likely is it that a missile or piece of munition caused this 'disintegration' or disappearance? I do not know what has been agreed upon as far as distance into the South China Sea.. had it made it there or not - I am not sure.

I find it difficult that there was absolutely no signs of this accident...even days after the disappearance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2014-03-10 10:30:03 and read 92227 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 65):
I didn't see this new update from Avhearald discussed:

Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.

Vietnam's Headquarters for the Search and Rescue operation of MH-370 confirmed receiving the report by Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center stating that a Hong Kong based airliner reported a large field of debris while enroute on airway L642. A Thai cargo ship in the area was asked for assistance and has set course to the area but did not find anything unusual so far. A second vessel asked for assistance did find some debris. Following this finding Vietnam's Maritime Search and Rescue Services (MRCC) dispatched a ship to the debris field.

there was a picture that was tweeted that was linked in the last thread that may be it. That area may be in radar coverage not sure what they have in that area but it will be something to be looked at. I am wondering if they ran out of fuel. maybe they were not fueled right but why would they not have time to tell anyone. Nothing can be ruled out ever until the black box is found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 10:30:14 and read 91635 times.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 65):
I didn't see this new update from Avhearald discussed:

It's in this or the last thread.  

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:31:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: dtfg
Posted 2014-03-10 10:30:39 and read 91713 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 41):
Quoting hoya (Reply 15):
but rather where the current has taken it

If the a/c crashed in the Gulf of Thailand or the South China Sea, only teleportation could take the remains to the Strait of Malacca or the Andaman Sea.

In other words, if the plane crashed in the Strait of Malacca, it must had turned back and flown all the way through Malaysia or Thailand soil without being detected by any ground radar.

So I really don't understand the points of searching the western area...

Yibo

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:34:30]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: dtfg
Posted 2014-03-10 10:33:24 and read 91003 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 41):
Quoting hoya (Reply 15):
but rather where the current has taken it

If the a/c crashed in the Gulf of Thailand or the South China Sea, only teleportation could take the remains to the Strait of Malacca or the Andaman Sea.

Or, if the plane crashed in the Strait of Malacca, it must had turned back and flown all the way through Malaysia or Thailand soil without being detected by any ground radar...

yibo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-10 10:34:01 and read 90915 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 56):
Primary radar, in theory, should show the location and path of a flying object regardless of whether it has a transponder--it's simply radio waves that bounce off a target and return. It just takes a bit more analysis.

But most primary surveillance radars have a range limit of 50NM from shore. So if plane travelled beyond this range, primary radar is of no use. Maritime surveillance aircraft in the area might have picked up, but they are not going to release any data.

I am surprised China is complaining about capabilities of Malaysia and Vietnam, China is the one with most air and naval assets in the region.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FlyingSicilian
Posted 2014-03-10 10:34:40 and read 90392 times.

Quoting anstar (Reply 17):


CNN is saying it was an iranian man that bought the tickets. One of the men on CCTV using the passports was of African decent.

Persians and Black people do live in Europe. Mario Balotelli comes to mind for example.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 10:35:21 and read 90588 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 60):
Does not explain how the other pilot is incapacitated.

Suicide would be relatively easy if the other pilot is on the toilet. It happened several times before. Would explain the sudden loss of transponder, would explain the plane going off course and the SAR searching in the wrong place first. Would perfectly fit to the timing (the plane reaching alltitude requiring only one monitoring FO). Would explain the airline holding back information. Doesnt explain why no debris is found yet. And police and even the press should have been able by now to find out wether one of the pilots had a major problem and a mean character disregarding massmurder.

[Edited 2014-03-10 10:48:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: wxmeddler
Posted 2014-03-10 10:36:24 and read 90361 times.

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 40):

Alright, so lets assume the pilot turned off the ADS-B and the ACARS then descended to under 1000 ft off the deck to avoid radar detection. How much fuel would he have before having to ditch? 3k miles?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-10 10:37:01 and read 90119 times.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 67):
Interesting, indeed, they are trying this.

I guess at this point in this "strange" situation, they better try everything that could in a way or another lead to a clue rather than miss it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2014-03-10 10:38:14 and read 90004 times.

Quoting flymeariver (Reply 59):

But without a transponder, how would they know the plane was going "down" per se, since altitude data is transmitted via Mode C transponder. Without that, all you can really see is an object on the scope, at best...

Unless they were able to track the object up to a certain point/area, and then it "disappeared" even from the primary radar. Not conclusive, but it could at least help locate a crash site.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: wingbuff
Posted 2014-03-10 10:39:51 and read 89852 times.

The hundreds of boats' failure to find any debris in such shallow waters is puzzling. The 777 is too big a bird to ditch in the sea without some parts being ripped off, even with presumably hijackers holding the crew at gunpoint and ordering to switch off all communications and recordings. USA1549 was one in a thousand, or even a million, miraculous ditchings.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 10:40:11 and read 89618 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 77):

Alright, so lets assume the pilot turned off the ADS-B and the ACARS then descended to under 1000 ft off the deck to avoid radar detection. How much fuel would he have before having to ditch? 3k miles?

It's pitch dark over water, what if you misjudge the descent?

Also, you are probably going to crash if you go anywhere near Malaysia at 1K feet in the dark.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 10:41:51 and read 89114 times.

But there would be no reason for a suicidal pilot to escape radio/radar coverage and continue flying. The longer this goes, the more likely somebody will interfere with his plan. So in case of a suicide, the wreckage should be somewhere where they have been searching for days now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: redflyer
Posted 2014-03-10 10:42:46 and read 88800 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 60):
4) Suicidal pilot: one of the pilots first turning off the transponder and ACARS, then flying and crashing the plane into the sea. Does not explain how the other pilot is incapacitated.



Other pilot does not have to be incapacitated, only locked out of the cockpit. Perhaps after reaching cruise one pilot left to use the toilet. Pilot in the cockpit locks the door and then does what he wants for the remainder of the flight. Egypt Air flight 990 crash comes to mind. The captain left the cockpit after the plane had reached cruise and the co-pilot put the plane into a dive; although, in that instance the captain did get back into the cockpit in a futile attempt to right the ship.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SLCPilot
Posted 2014-03-10 10:44:05 and read 88386 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 77):
Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 40):

Alright, so lets assume the pilot turned off the ADS-B and the ACARS then descended to under 1000 ft off the deck to avoid radar detection. How much fuel would he have before having to ditch? 3k miles?

I have no idea. The aircraft I fly is a different make/model/mission than a 777-200. I have no doubt somebody here will give a pretty good estimate in a few posts!

SLCPilot

Ps. My gut feel is about 1500nm if the plane had 7 hours fuel on board for cruise at altitude. Two things work against you, lower TAS, and much greater fuel consumption.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 10:44:37 and read 88253 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 82):
But there would be no reason for a suicidal pilot to escape radio/radar coverage and continue flying.

Might want to use the plane as a weapon. Crash it into a building or a stadium full of people or some other target.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-10 10:44:45 and read 88442 times.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 57):
do we know for certain what would happen when you call a cell phone that has been destroyed? Do they just ring?

No, they go straight to voicemail if a tower doesn't have the phone located and active. The fact that a phone is ringing means the phone is located and active - or at least that a tower thinks it is. It's a little different if you're on an international (not home) network, though. In my experience, then it does ring a few times before there's a message saying your call cannot be connected. I'm not sure from these reports if that's what's happening, or if the phones are ringing and then going to voicemail. If that's the case, that's weird. That means a home network tower has the phone located, and it's receiving signals.

The fact that 19 phones are ringing and nobody is answering still doesn't bode well for those passengers. I agree with whoever said if someone actually picked up, then you'd really have a story.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: danj555
Posted 2014-03-10 10:49:01 and read 87918 times.

http://i.imgur.com/uzIDqhf.jpg

Aircraft debris spotted.

additional article with more info. check highlighted text.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

Ok, not claiming to know everything. or even have read the entire article. just wanted the forum to have this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2014-03-10 10:50:06 and read 86740 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 77):
Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 40):

Alright, so lets assume the pilot turned off the ADS-B and the ACARS then descended to under 1000 ft off the deck to avoid radar detection. How much fuel would he have before having to ditch? 3k miles?

The range might be a little long but that does not explain how he would avoid being seen by a boat.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 85):

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 57):
do we know for certain what would happen when you call a cell phone that has been destroyed? Do they just ring?

No, they go straight to voicemail if a tower doesn't have the phone located and active. The fact that a phone is ringing means the phone is located and active - or at least that a tower thinks it is. It's a little different if you're on an international (not home) network, though. In my experience, then it does ring a few times before there's a message saying your call cannot be connected. I'm not sure from these reports if that's what's happening, or if the phones are ringing and then going to voicemail. If that's the case, that's weird. That means a home network tower has the phone located, and it's receiving signals.

The fact that 19 phones are ringing and nobody is answering still doesn't bode well for those passengers. I agree with whoever said if someone actually picked up, then you'd really have a story.

if the phones are connected why have they not been able to locate them? seems a little weird.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-10 10:51:00 and read 86887 times.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 66):
As much as I think it unlikely, dont forget the precedent of the JAL B747 that had a sudden failure of the rear bulkhead that destroyed the controls on the tail of the aircraft, which then flew around in an uncontrollable manner for several hours, I think, before finally impacting a mountainside.

32 minutes according to wikipedia (not the best source, I know) and it would not have stayed in the air even that long had it not been for the crew efforts to try and save their doomed aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 10:51:11 and read 86726 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 84):
Might want to use the plane as a weapon. Crash it into a building or a stadium full of people or some other target.

I think in this case, "suicide" would not be the right term anymore... Futile speculation anyway.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-10 10:51:16 and read 86951 times.

I hate to add to the speculation, but it's all we have at the moment. I am unable to get past the fact that plane was lost near the beginning of the cruise phase. It seems like a fitting time for either the Captain or the FO to have stepped out to use the restroom. Are either pilots allowed to sit up front alone?

In the event the Captain stepped out, could the inexperienced FO inadvertently flicked a switch that led to the plane losing control in which he was unable to recover? There is always the suicide possibility from either the Captain/FO (it wouldn't be the first time, probably not the last).

I find the passport issue to be purely coincidental and I believe that hundreds, if not thousands of passengers travel on fake/stolen passports on an annual basis. I just don't see why terrorists or hijackers would use fake passports, the risk of getting caught is too great.

I believe, whatever happened, the plane remained largely intact until it hit the ocean's surface. The heavier pieces instantly sunk and whatever managed to float is in a small, concentrated area, making it extremely difficult for SAR to find any remnants of the aircraft. Couple that with the fact this part of the sea is littered with fishing boats and other maritime vessels, trash is abundant, creating many false positives, which in turn occupies SAR while the real remains of the plane are floating elsewhere.

If the plane did make an attempt to turn back to land, this meant the pilots knew they had a serious issue and I have to believe they would make some type of distress call to alert authorities that they were either about to crash or that they intended to make it to the nearest airport. This is unlike AF447, whom had no idea they were in trouble until it was too late, hence the no distress call.

Either way, I hope the families of the passengers can find some type of peace until their loved ones are found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-10 10:54:04 and read 85834 times.

Quoting danj555 (Reply 84):
Ok, not claiming to know everything. or even have read the entire article. just wanted the forum to have this.

Been posted a few times, no identification of what it is so premature to say aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-10 10:55:09 and read 85948 times.

Such a confusing case... I wish Mandala could give us an update on what he knows (take the hint!)

seriously, at this point nothing can be ruled out. Maybe the plane was stolen and its going to be used in a terror attack elsewhere, who knows? Maybe its landed in Somalia. (time for the jean-luc Picard photo with face in palms)

the worse thing is that as time goes on, no matter how insane these theories seem, they can't be discarded.

personally, i still feel there was a ditching, but towards Borneo... The plane may have been involuntarily turning back due to flight control degradation, and just because the transponder stopped, doesn't mean the plane did...

[Edited 2014-03-10 11:11:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-10 10:55:15 and read 86133 times.

Details of the search area - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26514556

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-10 10:56:47 and read 85377 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 86):
if the phones are connected why have they not been able to locate them? seems a little weird.

That's why I said it's not clear from the reports I've seen if they're ringing and then going to voicemail, or ringing and then getting a message that the call can't be completed. In the latter case, it may be one network trying to connect to another, which then can't locate the phones. That would probably happen if they had already transited onto another network at the time of the accident.

But if they are actually ringing and then going to voicemail, I also don't know why they couldn't try to use that data to find the wreckage. I suppose it could be that only one tower's got them, which would mean a large radius to search and maybe not much help beyond what they already know. But again, that's assuming the calls are really getting through, which they may not be.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: EXMEMWIDGET
Posted 2014-03-10 10:57:21 and read 85344 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 89):
I find the passport issue to be purely coincidental and I believe that hundreds, if not thousands of passengers travel on fake/stolen passports on an annual basis. I just don't see why terrorists or hijackers would use fake passports, the risk of getting caught is too great.

Agreed. Traveling on a stolen passport would raise too many red flags, especially ones that had been stolen 1-2 years ago. I would assume that most terrorists/hijackers would know this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 10:58:53 and read 84928 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 85):
if the phones are connected why have they not been able to locate them? seems a little weird.

I think the mobilphone issue is a myth. makes no sense at all to me.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 88):
I just don't see why terrorists or hijackers would use fake passports, the risk of getting caught is too great.

I agree. To smuggle two fake passports plus a bomb and/or weapons on board of a single plane is far to high a risk, I think a technical reason (structural failure/collison) or suicide is more likely at this point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-10 11:01:29 and read 84338 times.

Well, I am assuming most well to do people with families have LIFE INSURANCE, or is this not used
in China/Malaysia. Does not that mean that a large number of families will get a settlement.
It would all have to be un-entagled as to whom needed the money most. Obcourse greed is
not something that shows up in the motivations.


I think if it was an insurance job, it would surely help to have someone in the crew teaming up.
Remember an insured Spouse maybe innocent and not know they were being set-up.
There must be co-conspirator and therefore 2 insurance claims that were certainly "planned"

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: poolkeeper
Posted 2014-03-10 11:03:52 and read 83952 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 85):

The frequency used for a mobile is very high (from 450MHz to 2.1GHz depending on country and technology) and have no change to penetrate water so if they crashed in the water there is no change a cellular would transmit signal.

I wrote earlier about why it could be ringing even if phone is gone, for those interested, just search for my earlier post. The other reason for ringing is that they actually managed to land (which seems unrealistic at this point).

There is no need to use satellite surveillance to locate a phone, you can just check on the network to see what cell site and sector its connected to (mobiles also tells the network the signal strength to cell sites).
After that you can pinpoint it close enough (you can see the time it takes for the signal to travel and get an estimate of distance) and even if it is just connected to a single cell site you would get the area where you then could use a portable tracker.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 11:04:02 and read 84018 times.

Apparently, some people here watch a lot of TV.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: polnebmit
Posted 2014-03-10 11:04:22 and read 83999 times.

The fact that no debris has been found could also be the simple fact that we’re concentrating our sights on the wrong area. The rescuers are covering huge areas of open ocean, and it will be hard to pin point precisely especially since at this point we don’t have much to work with, only the “last known coordinates”. which mean that the aircraft has to be within a certain radius of that coordinate. But how big of a radius are we talking about is dependent on both the condition of the aircraft AND the crew from that last known coordinate til the final resting place.
The ringing mobile phones seems to me more of a moot point. I have friends that live in areas with limited or no mobile phone reception. If they travel from an area with mobile reception to an area with none and they leave their phones on, the phone is “lost in the network” since the last tower that had “contact” with the phone no longer has. If I try to call them, the phone will most of the times just “ring” on my end, but they tell me theirs never rang since there was no tower to contact the phone. However, if they turn the phone off BEFORE losing reception, then from that point on if I try to call them, it will forward me to their voice mail. Even if they turned the phone off or activated the Airplane mode AFTER losing reception, the phone had no chance to “check out” from the network and thus it’s still lost. This is just from personal experience. Maybe it’s different for you.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-10 11:04:55 and read 83849 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 83):
The fact that 19 phones are ringing and nobody is answering still doesn't bode well for those passengers. I agree with whoever said if someone actually picked up, then you'd really have a story.

What about using the GPS receivers in these phones to try and locate the wreckage?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-10 11:07:33 and read 83249 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 92):
That's why I said it's not clear from the reports I've seen if they're ringing and then going to voicemail, or ringing and then getting a message that the call can't be completed. In the latter case, it may be one network trying to connect to another, which then can't locate the phones. That would probably happen if they had already transited onto another network at the time of the accident.

If these phones are Chinese pax, phones were already roaming(last register carrier) in Malaysia before they were turned turned off. So depends on how carriers of both countries interact, phones may behave differently. Nothing much to read into it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Mikey711MN
Posted 2014-03-10 11:08:53 and read 83155 times.

Quoting dtfg (Reply 28):
I really don't understand this because if the plane is presumed to crush there in the Straits of Malacca, it must had turned around to the opposite direction and flown all the way back through Malaysia soil without being detected by any ground radar.

What the hell was happening...

Good point. Through at least indirect reasoning, the Malaysians may have detected something anomolous on ground radar, which may be withheld for the moment since this data has yet to come to light in the public domain.

There would be no other reason to look there otherwise.

In effect, their ground radar and other tracking systems all work properly, but for whatever reason the information has yet to be released. That's certainly an interim perception issue. Or their systems simply aren't reliable, and whatever showed up on radar around the time of the incident simply needs to be ruled out at this point. That's a real operational problem.

-Mike

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SQ452
Posted 2014-03-10 11:09:53 and read 83858 times.

After nearly 72 hours, I have to say I -and many on this forum- are relatively shocked that they haven't found a single trace of this plane yet. Given all the naval and military assets in the region, let alone the private vessels and fishermen in the Gulf of Thailand as well, it's truly incredible that nothing has been found as of yet. No debris, no "ping" from the black boxes, no nothing.

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 40):

The captain has been talked about. Do we know anything at all about the FO? The ability to disappear and fly the aircraft for some time is a skill that probably only the crew would have. It seems to me like possible deliberate crew action based on the lack of wreckage near the last reported location. It honestly wouldn't surprise me now if they found the plane floating in the middle of the Indian Ocean!


This is actually something I am thinking about: what's the chance that the plane was hijacked by the crew and it was taken someplace else? Is there a chance that Vietnamese radar just completely "missed it" once the plane went "silent" or something (for lack of a better term)? If it went out somewhere in the middle of the Ocean and ditched, there wouldn't be any way to know where exactly it wound up. I am begrudgingly calling this the LOST theory per the TV show.

Quoting anstar (Reply 17):

So it now seems that the tickets of the stolen passport holders were bought with cash the day before.

CNN is saying it was an iranian man that bought the tickets. One of the men on CCTV using the passports was of African decent.
Quoting flyenthu (Reply 46):
Nick Robertson on CNN is reporting right now that someone by the name of Mr. Khadem Ali (spelling ?) purchased the two tickets for two travelers that we have been talking about. Mr. Ali is apparently an "established customer" at the travel agency in Pataya and is of Iranian descent. Mr. Ali has purchased tickets from this travel agency in the past.

I hope Thai police have picked up this person already and hauled him in for questioning, if not he'll be 'in the wind' now that his name is all over the place.

They may have uncovered a significant piece of the puzzle here as to what may have happened to MH370 and if criminal/terrorist activity was involved. Either that, or they've just uncovered some other sort of criminal network and operation doing illicit things and it is purely coincidental and has nothing to do as to why the plane went missing.

One silver lining to this unfortunate tragedy is I think you will see more and more countries tapping into INTERPOL's database of missing and stolen documents. It's mind boggling to think that this day in age people can travel on an international flight on stolen documents and the sheer number of countries that don't check against this database is mind boggling.

Also - read somewhere that there is submarine joining the search? Is that true and what Navy is it from? I assume a submarine with its senstivite listening equipment and sonar would be able to hear the "ping" coming from the black boxes.

[Edited 2014-03-10 11:14:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: neutrino
Posted 2014-03-10 11:10:53 and read 82662 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 36):
As far as I know, the only country in the area with an operational aircraft carrier is Thailand which has one that happens to be the smallest aircraft carrier in the world (the HTMS Chakri Naruebet).

That's not the smallest aircraft carrier but the largest private yacht in the world.
Seriously, due to shortage of funding, the จักรีนฤเบศร, meaning "In honour of the Chakri Dynasty", has not been operational for a long time. It now put out to sea only about once a month for training. Its only missions in recent years are disaster relief and for use by the Royal Family (hence the yacht label). It also no longer have any fixed-wing aircraft complement though they could put some helicopters on it and aid the MH370 SAR effort....if they can find the money for the fuel.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: qantas077
Posted 2014-03-10 11:11:06 and read 82959 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 98):
The fact that no debris has been found could also be the simple fact that we’re concentrating our sights on the wrong area. The rescuers are covering huge areas of open ocean, and it will be hard to pin point precisely especially since at this point we don’t have much to work with, only the “last known coordinates”. which mean that the aircraft has to be within a certain radius of that coordinate. But how big of a radius are we talking about is dependent on both the condition of the aircraft AND the crew from that last known coordinate til the final resting place.

most sensible post in 10 pages! The plane is undoubtedly in the gulf but it's more a matter of where, anything else being spoken is nonsense.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-10 11:12:39 and read 82367 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 75):
Alright, so lets assume the pilot turned off the ADS-B and the ACARS then descended to under 1000 ft off the deck to avoid radar detection. How much fuel would he have before having to ditch? 3k miles?

If they did this, you'd likely have quite a few reports from fishing ships about a large, noisy aircraft flying at very low altitude...not to mention the need to stay completely away from land (to avoid passengers using cell phones to notify someone); if the idea was to steal the aircraft, you'd need to climb again quite soon, over the open ocean, in order to get the range to make it to a country which might participate in such lunacy. Even then, what are the odds of a 777 sized aircraft cruising around for several hours with all identification/transponders off not being intercepted by SOMEONE wondering what it was? Slipping into North Korea without Japan, Taiwan, or China noticing (or even South Korea) seems very improbable. Why intentionally disappear just to crash/commit suicide? I would think if that's your purpose, you'd want to be found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-10 11:14:36 and read 81304 times.

Does anyone have word on whether satellite imaging is being leveraged to scan for debris? I haven't seen that in the news yet but if satellites can be used for recon to spot something as small as a car or it's license plate why can't it be used to spot wreckage at sea?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-10 11:15:18 and read 81308 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 98):
The fact that no debris has been found could also be the simple fact that we%u2019re concentrating our sights on the wrong area

and looking on the other side of the peninsula is just odd, it means they saw the airplane go over the peninsula on radar, or there are parts of the peninsula that lack radar coverage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: jreuschl
Posted 2014-03-10 11:15:21 and read 81375 times.

Question.. could a hijacker turn off the radar so the plane couldn't be tracked anymore?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Halophila
Posted 2014-03-10 11:17:12 and read 81450 times.

Quoting flymeariver (Reply 25):
This scenario raises a host of other questions if this is indeed the case. If the plane was in fact hijacked and flown back toward Malaysia without an active transponder, what's to say then that the plane didn't continue further over the Indian Ocean?
Quoting Finn350 (Reply 57):
should have been noticed by primary radars and local population

It's interesting to note that the US Air Base in Diego Garcia (site of drone deployment for missions over that region) is located about 3K miles on a backtrack over the Indian Ocean. Highly unlikely, but there is no local population, and few boats probably on the flight path.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 11:18:39 and read 80579 times.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 108):

You can turn off the transponder, but primary radar can still see you. This happened with the 9/11 hijackings. No identifiers, but you can still see and follow the plane.

You would have to fly low to try to avoid primary radar stations.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2014-03-10 11:18:47 and read 80421 times.

Its beginning to look like a case for the X Files! Quite an exceptional case. I do wonder if anyone is searching overland at all? Even there though the jungle can swallow up quite large aircraft but a 777? No doubt we shall soon hear news that it has been located but this is really quite unprecedented.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 11:20:48 and read 79972 times.

It is really straightforward to ask the telecom companies over which antenna(s) the mobile phones had their last contact.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 99):
What about using the GPS receivers in these phones to try and locate the wreckage?

Call the NSA, their phone number is (301) 688-6524.


But this suggestion is moot, for two reasons:

a) if the mobile phone is still intact and on land, it must be closer than 35 km from the next antenna. The GSM standard uses time signals to discard data that is travelling for too long. With specially equipped antennas or mobile phones, you can have 70 km of range.

b) if the mobile phone is under water - well, bad luck. To communicate with something below the sea surface, you need extremely low frequencies, with specialized antennas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: United787
Posted 2014-03-10 11:21:48 and read 80023 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 77):
Alright, so lets assume the pilot turned off the ADS-B and the ACARS then descended to under 1000 ft off the deck to avoid radar detection. How much fuel would he have before having to ditch? 3k miles?

If they are unable to find a debris field, then I think this is a plausible possibility. Could also be really savvy hijackers instead of the pilots. If this is the case, where is the plane? Did they accidentally crash it? Or did they fly across the open sea and land it somewhere? Sounds far fetched but possible...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 11:22:06 and read 79839 times.

Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 93):
Agreed. Traveling on a stolen passport would raise too many red flags, especially ones that had been stolen 1-2 years ago. I would assume that most terrorists/hijackers would know this.

Well, it didn't raise any red flags, apparently. It seems to be a fairly common thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-10 11:23:07 and read 79433 times.

Quoting Halophila (Reply 109):

are you suggesting that might have been a potential target, if there's a hijacking at play? It wouldn't have got anywhere near there, surely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SQ452
Posted 2014-03-10 11:23:29 and read 79420 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 112):
a) if the mobile phone is still intact and on land, it must be closer than 35 km from the next antenna. The GSM standard uses time signals to discard data that is travelling for too long. With specially equipped antennas or mobile phones, you can have 70 km of range.

Wouldn't it make sense then to just get all the mobile numbers of the passengers and just cross-reference as there usually are a couple of people that forget to turn their phones off inflight and they probably got reception. Figuring out last known coordinates of a mobile could help. Just a thought.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2014-03-10 11:24:36 and read 79190 times.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 63):

Important to note that JAL123 search and rescue did not know about the bulkhead issue, that was uncovered during the investigation. MAS370 SAR would not preliminarily hypothesize this and adjust their search patterns accordingly, that would be foolish.

One hopes that the Mar. 10 debris field 50 nm off Ho Chi Minh City is the downed aircraft. Note this is in the South China Sea, and outside the current search zone.

[Edited 2014-03-10 11:29:33]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: wingbuff
Posted 2014-03-10 11:25:24 and read 79430 times.

An article in the Malaysian Insider states that Malaysian ATC lost contact with MH370 at 1.30, but in Vietnam it went off radar at approximately 2.40, at which time it would've already been flying over land, be it Vietnam or Thailand. Rescuers are so focused on the sea area, they really should send out helicopters to scout around Vietnam and Thailand.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...spiral-around-mh370s-disappearance

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 11:27:39 and read 78461 times.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 102):
I assume a submarine with its senstivite listening equipment and sonar would be able to hear the "ping" coming from the black boxes.

It doesn't require a submarine to detect acoustic signals underwater. They likely will have to find the airplane before the "pingers" will be of any use. As others have pointed out they're intended to pinpoint the FDR and CVR once the crash site is located.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 11:28:59 and read 77969 times.

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 118):
An article in the Malaysian Insider states that Malaysian ATC lost contact with MH370 at 1.30, but in Vietnam it went off radar at approximately 2.40,

I believe someone previously pointed out there is a time zone change involved.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-10 11:30:37 and read 77571 times.

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 118):
An article in the Malaysian Insider states that Malaysian ATC lost contact with MH370 at 1.30, but in Vietnam it went off radar at approximately 2.40, at which time it would've already been flying over land, be it Vietnam or Thailand. Rescuers are so focused on the sea area, they really should send out helicopters to scout around Vietnam and Thailand.

I believe there is an hours time difference between Malaysia and Vietnam, and this accounts for that discrepancy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Halophila
Posted 2014-03-10 11:31:25 and read 77876 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 115):
are you suggesting that might have been a potential target, if there's a hijacking at play? It wouldn't have got anywhere near there, surely.

Who knows, at this stage anything is possible. If I may add my 2 cents as an oceanographer: It is really hard to see anything out there because of the large amount of plastic and other debris in surface waters of the ocean, high turbidity of coastal waters, and large cyanobacterial blooms that occur in the region. The amount of trash in offshore waters of the region is pretty incredibly (and depressing from a marine pollution standpoint). This is distinct from AF447, since the waters out there are very clear, and distinguishing light colored material from the water is fairly easy (high contrast). I've been out on boats in both regions (actually - wierdly - I did research within 20 miles of where AF447 came down about 3 years prior), and the two are very different.

Reagarding the phones: Even considering all phones were 100% charged prior to leaving KUL, I'd be very surprised if they still have juice after 4 days, especially if they're currently located a long way for the tower (mine runs out very fast when it's 'searching...'. Not sure that this isn't an artifact of the telecommunications network.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-10 11:32:01 and read 77776 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 4):
I'd like to know the reasoning behind searching the South Andaman Sea at all.

Well there could be a very simple explanation:
1. They must give the impression they are "doing all they possibly can" to the public
2. The fleet can't really move to the other side of peninsula for military reason
3. Hence - the "search" on the other side of peninsula

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: qantas077
Posted 2014-03-10 11:32:30 and read 77713 times.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 108):
Question.. could a hijacker turn off the radar so the plane couldn't be tracked anymore?

how on earth would a hijacker get into the flight deck? without the communication being made by the tech crew?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-10 11:37:20 and read 76250 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 121):
I believe there is an hours time difference between Malaysia and Vietnam, and this accounts for that discrepancy.

Actually, it doesn't. Due to certain political vagaries, though Vietnam is to the east of Malaysia, Vietnam is one time zone behind Malaysia. I.e.: 2.40 am Vietnam time is 3.40 am Malaysia/HK/Philippines. So that's kinda odd.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: EMA747
Posted 2014-03-10 11:38:30 and read 75746 times.

Just out of interest is there a way for the cabin crew/pilot outside of the cockpit to contact the outside world without being in,or using,the comms in the cockpit?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 11:42:28 and read 76277 times.

A senior police official told Reuters that people armed with explosives and carrying false identity papers had tried to fly out of Kuala Lumpur in the past, and that current investigations were focused on two passengers who were on the missing plane with stolen passports.

"We have stopped men with false or stolen passports and carrying explosives, who have tried to get past KLIA (airport) security and get on to a plane," he said. "There have been two or three incidents, but I will not divulge the details."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...lines-flight-idUSBREA2701720140310

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 11:42:32 and read 75118 times.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 108):

Watch the movie "Con Air", there is an example of exchanging transponders... but... this... is... Hollywood.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 116):
Wouldn't it make sense then to just get all the mobile numbers of the passengers and just cross-reference as there usually are a couple of people that forget to turn their phones off inflight and they probably got reception. Figuring out last known coordinates of a mobile could help. Just a thought.

I'm sure the investigators also use this avenue, as requests from police/SAR to telecommunication companies are straightforward.

About ten years ago, a young man in my region went missing. The telco quickly gave the police the "coordinates" - which still amounted to an area about 8 square miles large, a huge area for searching a single person in a countryside with agriculture and many forests. (His body was later found just at the end of the village, very near to inhabited homes.)

But I think on the Malaysian coastline, the mobile phone antennas are very scarce. So the resolution is low.

And there is another point: Given the maximum range of a mobile phone connection - 35 kilometers - and the cruising altitude of 12 kilometers - the horizontal range of mobile phones would be 32.9 kilometers. AFAIK the last ADS-B broadcast was about 50 km from the shore line, so locating mobile phones wouldn't help. Except the aircraft made landfall somewhere (where it would also have been picked up by some primary radars).


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: neutrino
Posted 2014-03-10 11:43:53 and read 74970 times.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 102):
Also - read somewhere that there is submarine joining the search? Is that true and what Navy is it from? I assume a submarine with its senstivite listening equipment and sonar would be able to hear the "ping" coming from the black boxes.

Don't know about the other countries, but Singapore has sent a submarine support & rescue vessel equipped with divers and apparatus (including a submersible) for undersea search. This is more useful than a submarine for such work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 11:44:07 and read 75009 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 125):
Quoting slinky09 (Reply 121):
I believe there is an hours time difference between Malaysia and Vietnam, and this accounts for that discrepancy.

Actually, it doesn't. Due to certain political vagaries, though Vietnam is to the east of Malaysia, Vietnam is one time zone behind Malaysia. I.e.: 2.40 am Vietnam time is 3.40 am Malaysia/HK/Philippines. So that's kinda odd.

The contact was lost at around 1:30, the fact that contact was lost was officially reported at around 2:40.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-10 11:44:08 and read 74516 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 120):

I believe someone previously pointed out there is a time zone change involved.

yeah, Malaysia and Singapore is one hour ahead of Vietnam.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: jasondn
Posted 2014-03-10 11:44:36 and read 75028 times.

I have been look at that the pictures being sent to the press of the search personnel and pilots in the looking out the windows scouring the sea for debris. I fail to see the horizon and it doesn't look like the weather is assisting in the search efforts. It seems that the field of vision is limited to a haziness / foggy conditions. Anyone else noticed it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2014-03-10 11:47:44 and read 74054 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 57):
does not explain why loss of the transponder

Are we sure the transponder is lost? Could it be that it just does not work from under the water without an underwater sensor to read the ultrasonic ping?

tortugamon

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: United787
Posted 2014-03-10 11:47:50 and read 74400 times.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 124):
how on earth would a hijacker get into the flight deck? without the communication being made by the tech crew?

One scenario: One of the pilots needs to use the bathroom and when he exits or enters the flight deck, hijacker(s) forces his/her way into the cockpit before the other pilot can react. Would be difficult but given the possibility of human error on the part of the crew, definitely possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-10 11:47:52 and read 74117 times.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 80):
Other pilot does not have to be incapacitated, only locked out of the cockpit.

One relatively easy precaution for the future is to absolutely require two crew members in the cockpit at all times. If one has to leave to use the facilities or rest, a flight attendant (or another pilot, in the case of longer haul flights with more than a 2 crew complement) must first come in. That would thwart the ability of any ill-meaning pilot to lock out others.

Not saying that's what happened here, but given the number of speculations above, that might be a good precautionary measure.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: IAHWorldFlyer
Posted 2014-03-10 11:48:15 and read 73786 times.

I've read most of these posts, but not all, so pardon if this has been asked already---

Could it be possible for there to be an onboard fire like on SwissAir 111 that rendered electrical and communications systems moot, yet the plane glided some distance before crashing, a la Air TransAt that glided on no engines for over an hour to the Azores?
Which makes me wonder if the plane is somewhere on a mountainside in Cambodia or western Vietnam?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-10 11:49:51 and read 73536 times.

Quoting jasondn (Reply 132):
It seems that the field of vision is limited to a haziness / foggy conditions. Anyone else noticed it?

One word: contrast. The weather seems absolutely perfect for a SAR mission to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: dean
Posted 2014-03-10 11:50:32 and read 73046 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 121):
Quoting wingbuff (Reply 118):
An article in the Malaysian Insider states that Malaysian ATC lost contact with MH370 at 1.30, but in Vietnam it went off radar at approximately 2.40, at which time it would've already been flying over land, be it Vietnam or Thailand. Rescuers are so focused on the sea area, they really should send out helicopters to scout around Vietnam and Thailand.

I believe there is an hours time difference between Malaysia and Vietnam, and this accounts for that discrepancy.

Vietnam and Thailand are in the Indochina Time Zone (UTC +7 hours), no time difference between the two countries.

Edit: sorry, mixed up the two countries. and yes, you're right, there is one hour time zone difference between Malaysia and Vietnam

[Edited 2014-03-10 11:52:46]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 11:50:36 and read 73141 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 125):
Actually, it doesn't. Due to certain political vagaries, though Vietnam is to the east of Malaysia, Vietnam is one time zone behind Malaysia. I.e.: 2.40 am Vietnam time is 3.40 am Malaysia/HK/Philippines. So that's kinda odd.

Yep, that's correct: Malaysia is GMT + 8 and Vietnam is GMT + 7.

Very odd... so if that article is correct (based on local times) the aircraft would have been AWOL for two ours, by which time it would have been near Hong Kong if it continued no the same trajectory.

I personally think that the article is misinformed. Or maybe the author attempted to calculated the time difference his/herself and made a mistake.

Anyway...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-10 11:51:45 and read 73094 times.

Quoting jasondn (Reply 132):
It seems that the field of vision is limited to a haziness / foggy conditions.

Could be perception due to lack of dynamic range of the camera.

The photos are metered for the interior of the plane, which is many f-stops darker than the sunny outside. It means the bright areas are so light relative to the plane interior, that they reach value of full brightness on red, green and blue channels, resulting in "burned out highlights". In compact cameras and phones you only get 2-3 f stops over the "medium gray" before everything is white.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Logos
Posted 2014-03-10 11:52:14 and read 72626 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 55):
WHAT ABOUT A VERY SOPHISTICATED LIFE INSURANCE PLOY

This is essentially a suicide hijacking.

Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to take out life insurance on a third party and name yourself as beneficiary. For the obvious reasons, the insured party has to be aware and agree to this, but there could be a life insurance component to this without the named insured having instigated the plot.

Ultimately, such a scheme would likely be uncovered in the course of all the forensic investigation sure to follow such a disappearance/crash. I will say that it seems rather odd that they haven't found anything as of yet. The broad search area puzzles me as well (not saying anything that hasn't been said 10 times already, though).

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-10 11:52:47 and read 72656 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 133):
Are we sure the transponder is lost? Could it be that it just does not work from under the water without an underwater sensor to read the ultrasonic ping?

I meant the loss of the transponder and ADS-B in-flight, i.e. the last known location. Either someone switched it off or there was a major structural or electrical failure.

Although all the scenarios sound unlikely, if the debris is not found near the last location the other alternatives have to be considered seriously (and perhaps that is why the search has been extended to the other side of the isthmus). Basically the plane could have been crashed anywhere within the flying radius, and if the primary radars did not track the plane the search is going to be very difficult.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2014-03-10 12:02:02 and read 70678 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 48):
Nick Robertson on CNN is reporting right now that someone by the name of Mr. Khadem Ali (spelling ?) purchased the two tickets for two travelers that we have been talking about. Mr. Ali is apparently an "established customer" at the travel agency in Pataya and is of Iranian descent. Mr. Ali has purchased tickets from this travel agency in the past.

I'd be curious to know why he is an established customer. Human trafficker? That 2 (or more) pax seeking asylum in Europe were on board would then be a coincidence.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 57):
The phone ringing thing is kind of interesting, but do we know for certain what would happen when you call a cell phone that has been destroyed? Do they just ring? I know a cell phone that's turned off typically goes right to voicemail., but never thought what would happen if the phone has been destroyed. I suppose it should act like the phone is turned off and just go to voicemail? I dunno.

Cellphone ringing (as heard in the caller's phone) means that the cellphone's network provider is trying to establish contact with the device. How long it rings for and whether or not it switches to voicemail will vary among contracts and (presumably) countries.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 83):
No, they go straight to voicemail if a tower doesn't have the phone located and active. The fact that a phone is ringing means the phone is located and active - or at least that a tower thinks it is. It's a little different if you're on an international (not home) network, though. In my experience, then it does ring a few times before there's a message saying your call cannot be connected.

I actually tested this the other day when my cell phone had a battery black out... It was "ringing" in the phone I was calling from, then I got my own voicemail.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-10 12:02:57 and read 71327 times.

CNN is now reporting a group called the "China Martyr's Brigade" has claimed responsibility for the crash.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: A320FlyGuy
Posted 2014-03-10 12:06:32 and read 69698 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 144):
CNN is now reporting a group called the "China Martyr's Brigade" has claimed responsibility for the crash.

I've never heard of the China Martyr's Brigade....Even in the event that this was (heaven forbid) an act of terrorism, it still begs the question "Where is the wreckage"....???

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 12:07:42 and read 69559 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 144):
CNN is now reporting a group called the "China Martyr's Brigade" has claimed responsibility for the crash.

Apparently, they wrote a couple of emails to newspapers. But authorities don't give them much credibility. (It's somewhere in theese threads above.)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-10 12:08:25 and read 68862 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 144):

means nothing, not until authorities verify. There must be a hundred whack jobs claiming responsibility...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-10 12:08:41 and read 69138 times.

The head of the investigating team explained why they've extended the search to the west coast, if not yesterday then at least several hours ago: i.e. they're searching further west because the flight may have turned back just before contact was lost - "no other reason". What makes so many believe they're just spinning a line about the reason and about where the "last contact" was?

They also said quite early on that no alarm messages were received from the aircraft, or words to that effect. That doesn't give me reason to suspect there might have been alarm messages but they're not telling us.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-10 12:11:23 and read 68490 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 51):
But then why didn't it follow the established airways?

Because ATC give directs.

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 101):
Good point. Through at least indirect reasoning, the Malaysians may have detected something anomolous on ground radar, which may be withheld for the moment since this data has yet to come to light in the public domain.

As I said way up, there is likely only a trickle of information coming out to us. And that's how it should be. I fail to see any benefit of constantly briefing the press as to who is doing what and where... All we need to know is that a significant SAR effort has been mounted and based on the available intelligence they are doing what they think they need to...

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 112):
Call the NSA, their phone number is (301) 688-6524.

Or just say "hello NSA" on your favourite mobile messaging app  
Quoting jasondn (Reply 132):
I fail to see the horizon and it doesn't look like

Contrast and exposure. Cameras are unable to expose bright white and darks together, either the outside is correctly exposed or the cabin is correctly exposed, or you make a HDR photo... Weather looks superb.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-10 12:11:44 and read 68491 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 134):
One scenario: One of the pilots needs to use the bathroom and when he exits or enters the flight deck, hijacker(s) forces his/her way into the cockpit before the other pilot can react.

Right ! And then . . . and then fly the plane down to treetop level, so it's off radar, Then they fly the plane to Yemen and park it on some runway somewhere in the desert. It will be used in future terror attacks.

Why do you think nobody can find the plane? And why are they looking everywhere? That's because it vanished. That's right, it's in Yemen.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: AADC10
Posted 2014-03-10 12:12:42 and read 67879 times.

This may have been covered earlier but the search function works as well as ever. I noticed in the articles I have read about MH370 (not that I have read a huge number of them) that a cabin air leak causing the pilots to pass out was never mentioned as a possibility. Is that not possible in a 772? I am sure that there are lots of alarms in that situation.

Of course, if they passed out, the plane was probably on autopilot and would have continued on over land and would have been spotted, unless they got confused due to the lack of oxygen and switched it off, turned some odd direction and nosedived into the water.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ideekay
Posted 2014-03-10 12:12:44 and read 68930 times.

I have the feeling that something is totally wrong here.
It must be a very good planned mission. If 19 phones were ringing, why can't nobody locate them? I mean that should be no problem in todays world..
And as someone mentioned, the phones wouldn't ring if they were unterwater, could it be that they maybe flew the plane to a private airfield owned by the "terrorists" maybe?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: CptHaddock
Posted 2014-03-10 12:13:19 and read 68683 times.

Strange moment to join the Anet community, after so many years of lurking.

Saw the picture of a field debris spotted off the eastern coast of Vietnam, far away from where it was expected. Far away from the last know position.

Something's ringing in my head: HYPOXIA.

Plane unresponsive 40 mn after take off, when it reaches its cruise altitude. Flight crew doesn't answer vietnamese ATC calls. Assistance is requested from another plane, the captain says he established contact, but hears only mumbling voices. I remember the amazing record of that Kalitta flight incident available on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IqWal_EmBg

Of course, you could say the plane would have just been flying at FL350 until there was no more fuel. But what if the crew realizes there's something wrong, disengages autopilot, tries to regain control… lacks lucidity… plane flying erratically… until it hits the ocean in an unexpected place.

Another part of me thinks building this scenario is useless. Thinking about the comment made yesterday by a dutch member about decency. Sure, there's nothing wrong about searching an answer, and I'm not blaming anybody. As long it doesn't turn into entertainment, excitement. This is a terrible drama, not a detective game.

I'm confident we'll learn about the cause of this drama. Just a question of time and method. Starting from evidences and not theories.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-10 12:16:14 and read 67597 times.

Quoting ideekay (Reply 152):
And as someone mentioned, the phones wouldn't ring if they were unterwater, could it be that they maybe flew the plane to a private airfield owned by the "terrorists" maybe?

A phone of an AF447 pax did appear to ring although it was actually on bottom of the Atlantic. So that proves nothing, just because it appears to ring to the caller doesn't really mean it actually does...

// Somehow I managed to double post, bad internet connection atm...

[Edited 2014-03-10 12:18:42]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 12:16:32 and read 67367 times.

Quoting AT (Reply 135):
One relatively easy precaution for the future is to absolutely require two crew members in the cockpit at all times. If one has to leave to use the facilities or rest, a flight attendant (or another pilot, in the case of longer haul flights with more than a 2 crew complement) must first come in

Actually that's already done in many places. The problem it is intended to solve is with locked cockpit doors that cannot be opened from outside what happens if the one pilot on the flight deck becomes incapacitated.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 12:18:22 and read 66971 times.

Quoting CptHaddock (Reply 153):
Something's ringing in my head

Hypoxia will cause that.   Oh, and welcome to anet!

[Edited 2014-03-10 12:19:06]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 12:19:12 and read 66785 times.

Quoting CptHaddock (Reply 153):

They'd have to shut off the transponder, other comms like ACARS, and also hide from primary radars.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-10 12:20:15 and read 66431 times.

The fact that the authorities have identified one of the two fake passport passengers must mean they were known to the authorities.

That definitely points towards criminal activity. But which one specifically?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 12:20:47 and read 66353 times.

Quoting CptHaddock (Reply 153):
Assistance is requested from another plane, the captain says he established contact, but hears only mumbling voices.

That report has already been proven wrong, iirc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2014-03-10 12:21:33 and read 66420 times.

Quoting ideekay (Reply 152):
And as someone mentioned, the phones wouldn't ring if they were unterwater, could it be that they maybe flew the plane to a private airfield owned by the "terrorists" maybe?

If this is terrorism they're doing a horrible job of it.

Terrorism isn't just done for amusement. It's done to terrify people into complying with a demand. Perhaps they want Israel to self-destruct and go away, or the US to release an AQ terrorist or whatever. The point is that terrorism is done for attention and to accomplish a goal.

So if this is terrorism, then they really need to work on the PR arm of it. At least claim responsibility.

If that plane flew below 1,000 ft to a friendly airfield and they are holding all the passengers hostage, then why have there been no demands yet?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-10 12:21:35 and read 66653 times.

CNN has a story on the tickets purchased for the passengers with stolen passports. Clearly the link to Iran is interesting and may or may not be relevant. Can someone determine if Class V for this flight is economy, business or first class. It would be interesting to learn where these passangers were seated.

Again, I realize this may be a complete dead end but there is little else at present...

CNN Story

"Tickets linked to stolen passports for missing Malaysia flight were purchased by Iranian man, authorities say."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/10/world/...ry-passengers/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-10 12:23:35 and read 66145 times.

The debris field spotted by another aircraft is rather interesting (see avherald).

None of the speculative theories on this board would be an explanation how the MH370 might have ended up there (in case it is the aircrafts debris).

I doubt that the aircraft was destroyed / crashed close to the last known position (explosion, disintegration). It would be an "easy" find. Lots of debris close to a known position.

It is getting more difficult, the further the airplane flew after the last contact. Heading changes, range, remaining aircraft capabilities after failures are all not known.

History tells us, that aircraft crashes are far from being simple. It takes more that one failure to be catastrophic. All the speculation done so far regarding MH370 by the media and other people might be way to simple compared to reality.

But it is not easy to think more complex in order to come to an rational conclusion. An iterative approach might be helpful. All those maps available with search patterns look random to me. Meaning they have no clue what they are doing. But it might just look so, because the level of information is not the same (for sure).

Starting a search at the last known position is a good starting point for the search. But why don't they search along the planned routing or the general direction of the flight?

Therefore I believe that it might be a good idea to take a closer look to the debris found close to Vung Tau.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ideekay
Posted 2014-03-10 12:24:28 and read 65297 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 161):
If that plane flew below 1,000 ft to a friendly airfield and they are holding all the passengers hostage, then why have there been no demands yet?

Well thats true, still hoping that they would be at some friendly airfield..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-10 12:25:24 and read 65447 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 88):
could the inexperienced FO inadvertently flicked a switch that led to the plane losing control in which he was unable to recover?

Very unlikely. There is no single 'switch' you can click on a 777 that will render it unflyable

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 92):
That's why I said it's not clear from the reports I've seen if they're ringing and then going to voicemail, or ringing and then getting a message that the call can't be completed. In the latter case, it may be one network trying to connect to another, which then can't locate the phones. That would probably happen if they had already transited onto another network at the time of the accident.
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 92):
I suppose it could be that only one tower's got them, which would mean a large radius to search and maybe not much help beyond what they already know
Quoting na (Reply 94):
I think the mobilphone issue is a myth. makes no sense at all to me.

I think all the discussion about mobile phones is a red herring (meaning a false lead).
Some points:
- The ring sound is not generated at the phone, but by the system. It can be ringing while the system is looking for the phone. Several rings before the diversion to VM is not an indicator of a cell phone talking to a tower.
- If a phone was connected to the network you do not need to ring it - the phone would be registered with the network.
- If a phone was connected to the network, it would be trivial and quick to find the tower it is connected to. This would give a very solid search radius. I'm quite sure that this would have been done.
- Even if a phone is registering only intermittently, the system would have a record.
- Any cell phone that is in a weak area will go to a high power mode - and the battery would be dead by now.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 99):
What about using the GPS receivers in these phones to try and locate the wreckage?

You have to connect to the phone for this - unlike generating a ring. If they had a phone connected, they would already have a good idea of location - without GPS.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 102):

After nearly 72 hours,

- Any cell phone that is in a weak area will go to a high power mode - and the battery would be dead by now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-10 12:25:44 and read 65780 times.

Quoting jasondn (Reply 132):
It seems that the field of vision is limited to a haziness / foggy conditions.

Typical for tropical shallow waters.

Been chased by the media again today... and just as I was reading part 8, it was closed, by the time I run through interviews etc and reading part 9... it was closed already.   Oh well...

Anyway...
Cellphones can ring but no one picked up.
Sorry, harsh reality... Cellphones & water = dead. Cellphones & severe crashes = dead. Yet, in the Adam Air crash, where we now know the plane went into the sea... the ringing tone can occur several days after. In the Sukhoi crash hitting a mountain, phones that were destroyed in the crash, was still "connecting" with the tone... Both, despite the fact that after the crash the phones were outside cell coverage. Go and figure.

Some international media asked me if passport control at KUL was lax and insecure... WTH? Am in Indonesia and no expert on KUL security. *facepalm* But the media jumping at this is sickening. This is directed at keeping the frenzy going when the authorities have nothing or much to say about the 2 fake passports... then they can feed it with allegations of a cover up.

Several asked me what could happen... they seem to be fed up of listening to "this must be an explosion"... I just said that no matter how advanced the plane is... it's not perfect... remember, we are still dependent on the crew. If they had a simple problem and ended up task saturated in troubleshooting, you have an AF447 or a KI574 scenario...

Plane turned before disappearing doesn't mean it's going back to land. Again, I lost count the number of media I had to state this to. AF447, the plane turned during it's fatal descent. Same with KI574... Plus, the airway they were at had a turn... not enough details.

"We didn't see any debris so it must be an explosion"... well, it has to be one heck of an explosion beyond TWA800 or PA103 for the plane to be blown to little pieces.

Then we go to... "why can't we stream the blackboxes... we already have high speed satcom"... OK... you tell me how it's going to talk to the satellite when it's upside down... and you tell me how long would it re-lock to the satellite if it goes upright again... And yeah, streaming costs money. Periodic automatic sending of data costs money. The less sexy solution of having rapid position data transmissions during an upset, is largely ignored. Oh well... I guess "in the name of safety" can be a huge money sucker these days... (just look at how many SMS courses there are designed for idiots, made by big names).

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 51):
If the point where the heading seems to have changed to 40deg is IGARI, then that may not be much of a lead as it seems it took a turn towards 037deg in the previous days:

Back on more serious tone...
Simple explanation... Off route to IGARI is simply a direct to IGARI from the departures bypassing waypoints PIBOS and anything else on airway R208 until IGARI. This is by ATC clearance only... otherwise, follow the routes... Then why in previous days it goes to 37deg from IGARI and not that night? Again, ATC giving a shortcut... from IGARI direct to TSN VOR or BMT VOR... this bypasses the 40deg leg to BITOD along M765 and then anything else along L637 (until TSN) and/or W1 (until BMT)... but then the flight may have been filed that night for M765 until DAGAG before heading north...
Now, if the filed route is the same, then we can speculate that ATC in Saigon couldn't establish adequate communications with MH370 to give it the shortcut... (as it does save a few miles)...
If they filed for M765 until DAGAG, well, this doesn't tell much.

So much for this "turn"...

Am off for some much needed rest...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 12:26:27 and read 64759 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 161):
Terrorism isn't just done for amusement. It's done to terrify people into complying with a demand.

Or it could be they want to drive anetters crazy (they're doing a pretty good job of that).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: huxrules
Posted 2014-03-10 12:26:49 and read 64876 times.

Anyone know what make and model of ELT Boeing puts into their 777? Being that we just had one catch fire in a 787 I wonder if MH has inspected theirs. Is the ELT antennas anywhere near the radio antennas on a 777? Imagine an inflight fire that disables the ELT and then does a number on the radios. The plane tries to turn back and then ends up in the water far off course. Just another of the many many hypothesis.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: lugie
Posted 2014-03-10 12:30:25 and read 63937 times.

Quoting IAHWorldFlyer (Reply 136):
I've read most of these posts, but not all, so pardon if this has been asked already---

Could it be possible for there to be an onboard fire like on SwissAir 111 that rendered electrical and communications systems moot, yet the plane glided some distance before crashing, a la Air TransAt that glided on no engines for over an hour to the Azores?
Which makes me wonder if the plane is somewhere on a mountainside in Cambodia or western Vietnam?

I don't know...

of course pretty much NOTHING can be 100% excluded currently, however I doubt it was a fire.

Why? because in that case it would have had to be an extremely sudden blaze that exstinguished all electric supply on the aircraft without any warning signs beforehand.

I guess there should have been some kind of burning smell/fumes/smoke in the cabin or the flight deck before a possible fire would have destroyed anything and since AC 919 and SR 111 ANY sign of a potential fire prompts a pilot to make his/her way to the nearest airfield asap.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-10 12:33:30 and read 63747 times.

Quoting huxrules (Reply 168):
Anyone know what make and model of ELT Boeing puts into their 777? Being that we just had one catch fire in a 787 I wonder if MH has inspected theirs. Is the ELT antennas anywhere near the radio antennas on a 777? Imagine an inflight fire that disables the ELT and then does a number on the radios.

That's what I was wondering. What is the battery life on the ELT? I thought it was only 30 days.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-10 12:34:54 and read 63478 times.

Quoting CptHaddock (Reply 153):
Plane unresponsive 40 mn after take off, when it reaches its cruise altitude

The aircraft would not become hypoxic, just the people. So you'd still see secondary radar, return, etc.

Quoting huxrules (Reply 168):
Anyone know what make and model of ELT Boeing puts into their 777

We know it includes Honeywell since Boeing asked operators of 777's to inspect them after the 787 fire in the UK. However, that does not mean it is only Honey well.

The interesting point is that Boeing asked them to inspect or remove the Honeywell ELT. I recall a discussion about if a modern airliner needs an ELT after that - and apparently not all have them.
I assume that if the 777 in question had no ELT - we'd know that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2014-03-10 12:38:19 and read 62115 times.

Quoting danj555 (Reply 84):
additional article with more info. check highlighted text.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

Ok, not claiming to know everything. or even have read the entire article. just wanted the forum to have this.

Anyone know why AvHerald is down? Is it from us a.nutters, or are they getting a DDOS attack?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-10 12:41:41 and read 61681 times.

phone ringing makes sense.

If you call a phone the network searches for the phone and it rings. Usually the caller hears two rings before the receiver hears the ringing.
In the case of a lost or unpowered phone the netwerk will be unable to locate the phone and it will continue to search the globe for it.

To test this theory. Remove your simcard from your phone. Turn it on with out the card. then turn it off again without re-installing the simcard. Then try to call the phone from another phone. I believe it will continue to ring in a search mode for a simcard that it can't find.

Someone please test and respond to this blog. This may dispel the phone theory.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: E195
Posted 2014-03-10 12:42:04 and read 61380 times.

another theory
Could they have Hypoxia, (hellas air years ago..?) and when realised accidentally knocked off communications (is that possible at all?), then in turn and in confusion instead of trying to turn back to find landfall to land, instead find themselves further out to sea, then they passed away and the aircraft eventually ran out of fuel and ditched?

What is radar coverage like for the suspected debris field spotted by the new HKG crew recently?

E195

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-10 12:43:26 and read 61227 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 172):

It's working here (Netherlands) at the moment.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2014-03-10 12:43:47 and read 61365 times.

Is the following impossible.?

A fire in the cockpit destroyed communication Equipment. Pilots tried to turn back and got unconscious or killed by the fire. The aircraft with engines running continued quite a while - which could be fof hours....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 12:44:40 and read 60974 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 57):
4) Suicidal pilot: one of the pilots first turning off the transponder and ACARS, then flying and crashing the plane into the sea. Does not explain how the other pilot is incapacitated.

Well, Ethiopian 702 proved how that's easily done, and that was less than a month ago.. - wait until the other crew member leaves the cockpit for a restroom break, and then lock them out. Now, how easy is that?

Quoting ideekay (Reply 152):
And as someone mentioned, the phones wouldn't ring if they were unterwater, could it be that they maybe flew the plane to a private airfield owned by the "terrorists" maybe?

If the plane was hijacked, flown down to below radar detection altitudes, and landed at a private runway, don't you think the 'terrorists' would ask the passengers to turn off and hand over their phone to keep their detection hidden? I mean, it would seem silly to think that they would let everyone keep their phones.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ejl
Posted 2014-03-10 12:44:48 and read 61681 times.

Hi...

For what it is worth...Landsat8 (en earth orbiting satellite) took pictures of more or less the flight path of MH-370. The pictures were taken on 8 March 2014 at around 10h00 local time. There are three images from this time available in a line stretching from Kota Bharu (Malaysia) to Thochu Island (Vietnam). It may be of use to experts. The pixels are a bit coarse (30m x 30m with 15m x 15m black and white) but if there was a debris field or hydrocarbon slick, it may detect it. Each 'picture' is 168km x 168km.

I've been searching the scenes, actually, as it is what I do for a living...but I am not a specialist at over-water remote sensing. I would imagine someone already thought of this?

will try to make a little graphic of the image footprints so you can see where they are.

ejl

first post...by the way.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: davs5032
Posted 2014-03-10 12:45:50 and read 61388 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 150):
Right ! And then . . . and then fly the plane down to treetop level, so it's off radar, Then they fly the plane to Yemen and park it on some runway somewhere in the desert. It will be used in future terror attacks.

Why do you think nobody can find the plane? And why are they looking everywhere? That's because it vanished. That's right, it's in Yemen.

The idea that the culprit turned off all transponders to disappear from secondary radar and descended to a low altitude to fly thousands of miles away just doesn't seem realistic for me at all. Too many things would prevent this from happening without being discovered. Would flying at a low altitude really prevent any detection from primary radars? At some point, they would have had to fly over land and population to get to where you theorize...why wouldn't any primary radars have detected such movement? How wouldn't many inhabitants (if flying low over land) or ships (if over sea) have seen such activity and reported to authorities by now? Also, wouldn't flying at a low altitude allow the pax themselves to receive cell phone reception and alert someone?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 12:46:58 and read 61180 times.

The ATC mumbling sounds like it could bear a clue... sounds possible that the pilots were drifting in and out of consciousness.

That could be caused by a million things.... including an airborne/chemical attack (remember you can bring 100ml of liquids into the plane... depressurisation, a fire etc etc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: virgin744
Posted 2014-03-10 12:47:12 and read 60693 times.

Quoting ejl (Reply 177):

Thanks for that info. And welcome aboard!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2014-03-10 12:48:02 and read 60803 times.

Quoting michi (Reply 163):

CNN has a story on the tickets purchased for the passengers with stolen passports. Clearly the link to Iran is interesting and may or may not be relevant. Can someone determine if Class V for this flight is economy, business or first class. It would be interesting to learn where these passangers were seated.

The airfare was a shade over $600.00. Which class do you think that would put one in?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: anstar
Posted 2014-03-10 12:49:13 and read 60233 times.

Quoting E195 (Reply 173):

another theory
Could they have Hypoxia, (hellas air years ago..?)

I think most airlines have procedures in place to have communications with the flight crew at regular intervals to prevent this sort of thing happening again.

So lets move to conspiracy theories...

What are the chances of a Hijack and the plane was shot down or hit by a missile and its currently being kept quiet (and we may never know what happened)....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: n729pa
Posted 2014-03-10 12:50:45 and read 59748 times.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 63):
As much as I think it unlikely, dont forget the precedent of the JAL B747


But the aircraft still had radio contact and was able to send out a distress signal.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 16):
I have difficulties to imagine an event happening at cruising altitude that could crush a whole airliner into very small parts. The SR MD-11 was, but it happened when it hit the water with tremendous forces.



I have to confess I thought of both SR111 and AF447, and MS990.

Personally I don't think the 2 individuals with the stolen passports had anything to do with this.

Whilst on first hearing the news terrorism first came to mind, I don't think that is the case, IMO. Terrorism is normally done to highlight a cause, so far no one has come forward or admitted to this incident, that is not to say it isn't so, as not every time does the party involved come forward straight away. For example had Richard Reid (the shoe bomber) succeeded it would have taken a few days to find out about his background, and unless he left a note/recording specifically saying "I'm going to ........" , it could have been difficult to identify the bomber amongst a list of names unless there was something to link him/them to an attack.


Going back to the situation with SR111, some years back I read that it had hit the water and "telescoped" in on itself, causing the plane to compact and break up into much smaller pieces than usual. I won't go into graphic detail about the casualities. But I assume this would also create a very tiny debris field.

AF447 happened around the same time of day, but as I understand the weather was not a factor this time. But there doesn't appear to be any suggestion this flight lost height to the point where it disappeared and hit the water. Although AF447 was in a bit of a black spot between continents, MH370 wasn't so I assume had she been descending through error or disorientation in the dark, this would have been visble on the radar.

Which brings me to MS990.

Could MH370 have been brought down deliberately by one of the crew? In which case it could have impacted with the sea at high speed similar to SR111, and leaving a small debris field which is why they can't find it. Where as a plane exploding at 35,000 ft would leave a large debris field over an area spread by the jetstream and sea currents alike.


What we know is that the 777 is a very strong, reliable and safe aeroplane. I far as I know (and heard), Malaysia Airlines are a well respected and sound operator, so IMHO, this is why I feel there is something deliberate behind this.

We are all just speculating at this time, because no one does really know yet, so this is purely just my thoughts on the matter.


I do hate the way the media stick camera's into the faces of people arriving at the airport or help centres, when they are clearly so distressed. Regardless of what the cause is, my thoughts are with the families and friends of those on board. May they find peace.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: CPDC10-30
Posted 2014-03-10 12:53:49 and read 59199 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 162):
CNN has a story on the tickets purchased for the passengers with stolen passports. Clearly the link to Iran is interesting and may or may not be relevant. Can someone determine if Class V for this flight is economy, business or first class. It would be interesting to learn where these passangers were seated.

It's discounted economy. At least two bulkheads between the pax and the cockpit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ideekay
Posted 2014-03-10 12:54:03 and read 58769 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 176):
If the plane was hijacked, flown down to below radar detection altitudes, and landed at a private runway, don't you think the 'terrorists' would ask the passengers to turn off and hand over their phone to keep their detection hidden? I mean, it would seem silly to think that they would let everyone keep their phones.

I don't say that people are still keeping the phones, maybe the terrorists collected the phones and let them on, but don't ask me for what reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-10 12:54:26 and read 58821 times.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 151):
I noticed in the articles I have read about MH370 (not that I have read a huge number of them) that a cabin air leak causing the pilots to pass out was never mentioned as a possibility.

Does not explain lose of secondary radar...

There's no point really in trying to figure what caused the disappearance before we get to know the outcome...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-10 12:57:09 and read 58339 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 179):
The ATC mumbling sounds like it could bear a clue

Except that story was debunked yesterday.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-10 12:57:46 and read 58253 times.

Quoting n729pa (Reply 183):
Personally I don't think the 2 individuals with the stolen passports had anything to do with this.

And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 12:57:47 and read 58354 times.

Quoting ideekay (Reply 185):
I don't say that people are still keeping the phones, maybe the terrorists collected the phones and let them on, but don't ask me for what reason.

I'm just saying - why go to such lengths to hide your plane, and then expose yourself via the cellular networks. All those phones would be ringing from their family members calling them, and then the investigators would be able to pinpoint EXACTLY where the plane is.

Just saying it's highly improbable - I'm just one aviation enthusiast trying to debunk and suggest things like you are.. lol

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: CALTECH
Posted 2014-03-10 13:00:54 and read 57549 times.

Quoting n729pa (Reply 183):
Could MH370 have been brought down deliberately by one of the crew? In which case it could have impacted with the sea at high speed similar to SR111, and leaving a small debris field which is why they can't find it. Where as a plane exploding at 35,000 ft would leave a large debris field over an area spread by the jetstream and sea currents alike.

If the fuselage remained intact after impact with the sea, it would leave very little debris. Which it is kinda sounding like. If the fuselage came apart at altitude, there should be debris spread everywhere. The turn back supposedly seen on radar, could have been piloted, but without a call first telling air traffic control and or the home base that they were returning, doesn't seem likely. The turn seen on radar could have been the beginning of the final plunge or flight into the sea and uncontrolled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-10 13:00:58 and read 57498 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 188):
And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?

Why would an Iranian want to bomb down a Malaysian airliner?

I don't think it should be any more alarming than an American buying those tickets.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 13:01:17 and read 57537 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 188):

And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?

No, he is apparently well known to the ticket agent and commonly brokers tickets for a cut. He's a sort of salesman.

[Edited 2014-03-10 13:02:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: marosbts
Posted 2014-03-10 13:04:30 and read 56471 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 188):

Quoting n729pa (Reply 183):
Personally I don't think the 2 individuals with the stolen passports had anything to do with this.

And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?

You know not every single Iranian citizen is a terrorist? It may not have anything to do with the crash and those 2 persons are just immigrants trying to get to the EU. Do you know how many persons with forged / stolen passports were on board of the Air India Express 737 which crashed on landing? 10! Yet none of them had anything to do with terrorism.

I am sure this will be investigated, but you should not jump the gun and scream terrorists anytime an aircraft falls off the skies.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: fraapproach
Posted 2014-03-10 13:05:04 and read 56428 times.

With respect to the ringing cellphones: Wouldn't it be possible to make a pretty precise location of the phones by the location of the cellphone towers the call is routed through?

Just one other idea to mention: If the plane was last located around IGARI based on its remaining range which should be ~ 2500 and 3000 miles it could be anywhere between the west coast of India, the Australian west coast near Perth or east of the Philipines. If we take into account it could have gone anywhere unnoticed from the last known position at IGARI, then a serious expansion of the search area needs to be made. Can we discount a dissapearance over land at all?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-10 13:06:12 and read 56038 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 188):
And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?

Not ... really, no. I mean I know the US government/media narrative is that Iran is just chockful of terrorists, but that's not exactly true. Besides, for all we know, a slightly sketchy agency in Pattaya is trying to deflect blame. By all accounts, sans seating chart, but given the fare code, it was a discounted economy ticket, so they have to rush a couple of bulkheads worth of airplane to get to the cockpit, all before the tech crew sees them coming and shutting the door. Possible, but improbable.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: virgin744
Posted 2014-03-10 13:08:15 and read 55631 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 188):
And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?

Apparently he had been there previously and was known to the travel agent. Seems peculiar that someone would become known to the travel agent if they'd planned to commit criminal acts no?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Redsand187
Posted 2014-03-10 13:09:15 and read 55615 times.

Quoting ideekay (Reply 185):

I would find it hard to believe that they would have been able to collect every device on the plane. Surely one person would have forgotten a device or purposely withheld it.

While anything is possible at this point, I don't think it is likely. One thing is for sure is that the plane isn't where the evidence we have shows it should be.

I know some private jets carry handheld radios for emergencies where they lose radio contact. Does an airliner? I find it hard to believe the plane would have made a gentle landing from 35000ft with no attempts of contact or witnesses somewhere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ElectricZ
Posted 2014-03-10 13:11:34 and read 55212 times.

I've scanned through many of these threads but haven't seen it discussed... What are the ocean currents like near/around the last point of contact? It's relatively very shallow water. It seems unlikely that the debris could have drifted that far on its own based on the sighting near HCM City, but could the ocean currents/tides/prevailing winds explain the difference? Or is the debris field actually just a floating garbage field?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: poolkeeper
Posted 2014-03-10 13:12:13 and read 55244 times.

Quoting fraapproach (Reply 194):

That a phone is ringing does not mean that the call is routed through. The ring signal is generated by the network and not the phone.
If a mobile phone is one then you can estimate its position with an accuracy of a few km in the worst case, you don't need to make any calls.
In the reported case I understand that the calls are made from China which means that the recipients have been roaming in Malaysia. Very common that you can get a ring signal during the paging process, everything is about how the network is configured with timeouts etc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: CPDC10-30
Posted 2014-03-10 13:12:58 and read 54818 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 191):
Why would an Iranian want to bomb down a Malaysian airliner?


Or a Chinese one, for the sake of argument.

It really seems to me that one or more countries does have more information, whether it be radio transmissions or radar data, and has decided not to share it yet for some reason. Given the number of competing territorial claims between Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, China and also the US interest in the region, I find it hard to believe that the airplane truly "disappeared without a trace". There must be all sorts of surveillance going on all the time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 13:18:48 and read 53785 times.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/how-c...n-jet-disappear-ocean-its-not-hard

Azharuddin said the search includes northern parts of the Malacca Strait, on the opposite side of the Malay Peninsula and far west of the plane's last known location. Azharuddin would not explain why crews were searching there, saying, "There are some things that I can tell you and some things that I can't."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ideekay
Posted 2014-03-10 13:21:10 and read 53623 times.

Quoting Redsand187 (Reply 197):
While anything is possible at this point, I don't think it is likely. One thing is for sure is that the plane isn't where the evidence we have shows it should be.

Thats exactly what I mean, what if this a false path? Im really thinking that the plane is not in that area where they are currently searching..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-10 13:24:10 and read 53702 times.

The WSJ is reporting that the latest debris sighting (the sighting by airliners flying off the east coast of Vietnam) is not from MH 370. http://stream.wsj.com/story/malaysia...75558/?cb=logged0.9067711639218032

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-10 13:26:02 and read 52645 times.

Quoting ideekay (Reply 202):
Thats exactly what I mean, what if this a false path? Im really thinking that the plane is not in that area where they are currently searching..

well its not on the surface where they're looking. it wither means everything is staying on the seafloor, or it is somewhere else. since there is no large debris field, the FBI investigator of TWA 800 has concluded there was no mid-air disintegration or explosion.

[Edited 2014-03-10 13:26:46]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 13:26:17 and read 52604 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 201):
Azharuddin said the search includes northern parts of the Malacca Strait, on the opposite side of the Malay Peninsula and far west of the plane's last known location. Azharuddin would not explain why crews were searching there, saying, "There are some things that I can tell you and some things that I can't."

That certainly is a huge development but not surprising.

Back-channel communications happen without the media / us av-enthusiasts knowing sometimes...

It could be a context thing - he might just be indicating that he has no reason as to why it's occurring...?

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2014-03-10 13:27:29 and read 52370 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 201):
Azharuddin would not explain why crews were searching there, saying, "There are some things that I can tell you and some things that I can't."

Exactly. I strongly suspect that there is some radar or other data, which hasn't been fully divulged for one reason or another, indicating that the aircraft turned and continued to fly in that direction. Otherwise it would be pretty random to start a search so far from the last known location of the aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-10 13:29:42 and read 51892 times.

Quoting ElectricZ (Reply 198):
I've scanned through many of these threads but haven't seen it discussed... What are the ocean currents like near/around the last point of contact? It's relatively very shallow water. It seems unlikely that the debris could have drifted that far on its own based on the sighting near HCM City, but could the ocean currents/tides/prevailing winds explain the difference? Or is the debris field actually just a floating garbage field?

I saw this on twitter about the currents, for whatever that's worth: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/443068603424702464/photo/1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-10 13:38:01 and read 50103 times.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sia-airlines-idUSBREA291D520140310

Just caught this - No Automated Messages from Missing Boeing Jet : Sources

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: aircatalonia
Posted 2014-03-10 13:41:22 and read 49197 times.

Can anyone confirm this information?

- 5 bags or more removed from the hold
- Off chocks: 16:41
- STD: 16:35

Doesn't this sound unusually fast? I mean:

- Find which bag belongs to which container
- Offload containers
- Find bags and take them out
- Load containers again

And only 6 minutes late?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2014-03-10 13:43:24 and read 48459 times.

Ok so lets say there was a total loss of electrical power which would explain why ACARS,CPDCL,COMMs,Trasponder... etc was off, and they also had hypoxia, if the plane was trimmed correctly the plane would just fly on its own till fuel ran out but that is saying it flew in a straight line and it should of come back into radar. but if it was in a bank like FR shows of a heading of 24-40 now it could fly circles or be flown way off course and explain why they have not found it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-10 13:45:32 and read 47987 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 201):
Azharuddin would not explain why crews were searching there, saying, "There are some things that I can tell you and some things that I can't."

   Hmm... that's different to what was said earlier.   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 13:45:39 and read 47819 times.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 209):

Perhaps the bags were never loaded?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-10 13:45:48 and read 47891 times.

Regarding the 2 suspects using stolen being responsible for bringing the aircraft down theory, why travel on a stolen passport which might be detected at passport control?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 13:46:26 and read 47403 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 208):

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sia-airlines-idUSBREA291D520140310

Just caught this - No Automated Messages from Missing Boeing Jet : Sources
Quote:
The Boeing 777-200ER is equipped with a maintenance computer capable of talking to the ground automatically through short messages known as ACARS.

"There were no signals from ACARS from the time the aircraft disappeared," a source involved in the investigations said.

So, this an indication that the aircraft should be more or less in the area of its last reported position, right?

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 201):
Azharuddin would not explain why crews were searching there, saying, "There are some things that I can tell you and some things that I can't.

Which roughly translates to: We still have no idea.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-10 13:46:45 and read 47408 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 179):
sounds possible that the pilots were drifting in and out of consciousness.

This would not cause the a/c to stop sending transponder signals.

Quoting anstar (Reply 182):
I think most airlines have procedures in place to have communications with the flight crew at regular intervals to prevent this sort of thing happening again.

Irrelevant - the a/c would not stop sending transponder signals.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 189):
phones would be ringing from their family members calling them

The ringing phones theory is a distraction. The cellular network can return several rings to the "caller" for a phone that is off or not in contact.

You do NOT need to ring a cellular phone to identify if it is on the network. They 'check in' with the network regularly.

So - if passengers cell phones were on and in contact with the network - we would know and we would have a tower location.

----
Hypoxia theories - unless you think a hypoxic crew would turn off the transponder(s) (unlikely) - then hypoxia of the crew would NOT cause loss of the transponder signals.

Again - we know very little.
We do know
- The a/c is missing. We don't even know if it crashed, ditches or landed. All we know is it would have run out of fuel long ago.
- We can surmise that, because the transponders went off line that one off 2 things happened
- They were turned off
- They failed due to a failure of the transponders or the a/c systems that power them.

---
One definition:
Many may not know what "Secondary Radar" really means.

There are 2 types of radar returns possible.
- Primary. This is the 'traditional' type of military detection radar and what stealth a/c are intended to defeat. A radio signal is sent from the transmitter, some part of the signal reflects back from an aircraft and is picked up by a receiver (co-located or near the transmitter). The return is the "primary return." The system uses time of flight information to identify a distance and direction.
Note: All primary radar can tell you is "the a/c is on this bearing (including both a horizontal and vertical component) and is this far away."
Add multiple returns over time and you can measure and changes in bearing and distance.
Add multiple transmitter/receiver pairs and you can start to triangulate better data.
Back in the "day" primary radar was used for ATC in local areas - to day it is rarely used.
For primary radar to be effective over a distance, it takes a lot of power - smokin' amount of power. The Aegis system can run up to 6 Megawatts. Do not stand in front of it - you will be cooked....

- Secondary: Secondary radar does not depend on the primary return - it depends on the fact that when the aircraft 'sees" the interrogating beam - it responds (transmits) with a signal from the transponder. Depending on what class transponder, more information will be sent. The most basic ones will return the assigned transponder code. The most sophisticated will return GPS location, flight information, etc.
Note: If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar is ineffective.
Basically, it is sending out a directional signal that says "tell me about yourself" and the airplane returns with "here I am."
If the transponder fails to respond - secondary systems 'may' display a primary return - but 'may' is key.

Essentially - secondary radar is not radar in the sense of the term "RAdio Detection And Ranging". It is more like a 'directional radio conversation".

---
For MH370, secondary or transponder signals were lost. This is what "loosing contact with the a/c..." means. If there were no primary radar systems looking at it - then it would simply "disappear". Note - I believe modern ATC systems will continue to show a predicted track and information for a time - I don't know how long (minutes or seconds I would expect). This prevents the a/c from appearing and disappearing all the time due to momentary signal loss.

So - fro MH370 - either the transponders failed, or were turned off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 13:47:09 and read 47512 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 188):
And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?

Expats sometimes have strange jobs. I know a Swissman in Spain who makes a living selling mobile phone contracts.

As an Iranian, he might have good contacts to the Persian/Arabian region, and so this travel agency sells tickets often through him, and he might get some kickbacks.

And as it has been mentioned before, being a regular customer for a travel agency wouldn't help if you're up to terrorism or hijacking.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 13:48:52 and read 47006 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 210):

That's a lot of failure. 2 engine gens, 2 backup gens, APU, battery, RAT.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-10 13:52:02 and read 46396 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 217):
That's a lot of failure. 2 engine gens, 2 backup gens, APU, battery, RAT.

or a fire in the EE bay?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: anstar
Posted 2014-03-10 13:52:03 and read 46576 times.

So given the Malaysians are now searching in West Malaysia and say the plane may have turned around... what are the possibilities the planes did start to turn due to say a hijacking and that it was shot down by a government and said governments arent sharing the information? Ok here I go on conspiracy theories!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2014-03-10 13:52:10 and read 46446 times.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 209):

Could simply have been 5 connecting bags where there was some doubt if the pax would make the connection,
and therefore were held back until the last minute.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 13:53:58 and read 45897 times.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 218):

Most likely wouldn't be sudden.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: lugie
Posted 2014-03-10 13:54:11 and read 45533 times.

Quoting art (Reply 213):
Regarding the 2 suspects using stolen being responsible for bringing the aircraft down theory, why travel on a stolen passport which might be detected at passport control?

Maybe because they were already brought into connection with terrorist activities beforehand and their names are on no-fly lists so the chance to get aboard with their actual names is close to zero while there obviously is a chance of booking flights and boarding an airplane with stolen passports.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-10 13:55:04 and read 45787 times.

Quoting virgin744 (Reply 196):
Apparently he had been there previously and was known to the travel agent. Seems peculiar that someone would become known to the travel agent if they'd planned to commit criminal acts no?

Well, based on media reports... (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/10/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-mystery-passengers/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

"On Monday, Thai police said the tickets had been purchased by an Iranian man for two friends he said wanted to go home to Europe."

"Malaysia's civil aviation chief, Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, revealed Monday that authorities have reviewed security footage of the men passing through Kuala Lumpur's airport, and they are not "Asian looking men." At least one of them appeared to be black, Rahman said."

So two friends traveling with stolen documents. Is the Iranian on this as accomplice because he knew of those passports being stolen. I'll agree that it could be mere coincidence. But this is a situation that could be anything.

"If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains – however improbable – must be the truth."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: klebert
Posted 2014-03-10 13:56:19 and read 45090 times.

If these questions have been answered before my apologies, but this thread is simply too large to go through all of it, I scanned only the last couple of hours and was unable to find an answer...
a) is it truly possible for cockpit personnel (pilot or otherwise) to turn off all outgoing communication originating from the aircraft... transponder, etc. but thinking especially of the AF447 automated transmissions directly to AF Paris hq.
b) how low would have an aircraft to sink and fly in a controlled manner in order to avoid ATC radar (I do not think it is possible to avoid chance encounters with other radar or visuals)

I agree that there is most certainly a difference between what is known publicly and what is known to authorities. Unfortunately, putting 2+2 together as far as a terrorism use case is concerned (Iran vs. China, Malaysia and no public announcement... sorry, that does not add up at all), as well as a mid-air explosion en-route without a debris field nearby - personally I am more and more drawn to a comparison with MS990 and the Silk Air 185 incidents. Both of which were solved by finding wreckage and recorders (especially MS990)... hence my questions... could a person in the cockpit fly a 777 aircraft somewhere out to sea undetected in the hope to avoid discovery of black boxes (which the cockpit cannot disable)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-10 14:00:23 and read 44590 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 221):
Most likely wouldn't be sudden.

I was thinking that a fire in the EE bay might be the answer.

It is below the cockpit, it could incapacitate the pilots with fumes, distract the pilots with firefighting. you would have pilots sitting on the literal hot seat,

finally, you have some amount of oxygen passing through that area to feed the fire, there are ignition sources, and fires have occurred in that area before- on a 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: gatechae
Posted 2014-03-10 14:01:18 and read 44184 times.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 190):
If the fuselage remained intact after impact with the sea, it would leave very little debris.

If the plane did in fact crash into the gulf of Thailand at a high rate of speed, wouldn't the relatively narrow depth (average depth at 80m, with a 777 length being 64m) cause it to break up upon impact with the sea floor (allowing debris to float to the surface)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: damirc
Posted 2014-03-10 14:01:59 and read 44665 times.

Guys the phones ringing was explained before, and can confirm since I occasionally have to deal with SIP trunks and the like ^^.

The ringing tone is not generated by the phone but by the network. In most cases it is spoofed after a certain timeout (so the user has some aural feedback a connection is being made), and after another timeout this ringing turns into whatever action is returned by the carrier (voicemail, out of range message etc.) in case a connection can not be made.

D.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-10 14:02:46 and read 44134 times.

Quoting klebert (Reply 224):
could a person in the cockpit fly a 777 aircraft somewhere out to sea undetected in the hope to avoid discovery of black boxes (which the cockpit cannot disable)?

If it was a suicide mission, why would you care? If you are going to kill yourself and take everyone with you, there is no point in hiding the fact.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 14:03:27 and read 44092 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 223):
"If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains – however improbable – must be the truth."

But you're pretty near-sighted for such a bold statement.

Isn't it possible that the Iranian knew that the passports were stolen, but that he also knew that stolen passports are not a rare event in that region? For example, Malaysians, Indians, Indonesians and Filipinos need a second (stolen) passport in case theirs get taken away while working in the United Arab Emirates.

As a extortion method used by employers, their passports are regularly taken away.

So why should he connect his "customers" with any type of criminality, apart from using "false" documents?


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: deltacto
Posted 2014-03-10 14:07:04 and read 43502 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 223):

"Malaysia's civil aviation chief, Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, revealed Monday that authorities have reviewed security footage of the men passing through Kuala Lumpur's airport, and they are not "Asian looking men.

I have read all the threads, but I may have missed a few posts, so I apologize if this has been discussed;

How can someone determine which passenger is which from watching the surveillance videos?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Web500sjc
Posted 2014-03-10 14:07:06 and read 43539 times.

Quoting gatechae (Reply 226):
If the plane did in fact crash into the gulf of Thailand at a high rate of speed, wouldn't the relatively narrow depth (average depth at 80m, with a 777 length being 64m) cause it to break up upon impact with the sea floor (allowing debris to float to the surface)?

not if the airplane crashed at a shallow angle- like a ditching angle. If no one was at the controls and the CG stayed consistent, then the airplane would fly, (up, down or level) at an airspeed around the cruise airspeed (IAS). so it could glide down and not crash at a high rate of speed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-10 14:08:03 and read 43194 times.

Quoting klebert (Reply 224):
a) is it truly possible for cockpit personnel (pilot or otherwise) to turn off all outgoing communication originating from the aircraft... transponder, etc. but thinking especially of the AF447 automated transmissions directly to AF Paris hq.

Yes. The crew can turn off everything - and must be able to isolate any electrical component for fire protection reasons.

Quoting klebert (Reply 224):
b) how low would have an aircraft to sink and fly in a controlled manner in order to avoid ATC radar (I do not think it is possible to avoid chance encounters with other radar or visuals)

Remember - most ATC is secondary radar and has very little primary return capability. That said - it would take some real planning, good understanding of where radar installations are and good navigation to maximize the possibilities of avoiding it.

However, as you said - that does not apply for primary radar systems - primarily military - that may be operating.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 214):
So, this an indication that the aircraft should be more or less in the area of its last reported position, right?

No - just that whatever took out the transponders and other comm also took out the ACARS.
One can imagine - and it is just imagination right now - two scenarios.
- Purposeful disabling of comms and diversion (read hijacking)
- Catastrophic electrical failure failure that took out all comms, but left the a/c flying followed by attempts by the crew to fly to a safe place to land. In the blind, at night, with no navs perhaps?

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 201):
"There are some things that I can tell you and some things that I can't."

This sounds like secret military radar running that caught something. The existence and detail of it may not be revealed, but the 'data', as in the flight track may be.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 14:08:47 and read 42738 times.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 225):
I was thinking that a fire in the EE bay might be the answer.

It might be, but it would have to have been quick to blaze up.

They disappear after only about 40 minutes with no apparent deviations or altitude changes until the very last minute.

They reach cruise apparently uneventfully as well.

What is burning down there that doesn't show up in a malfunction or a warning at all?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-10 14:10:12 and read 42787 times.

Quoting gatechae (Reply 226):
If the plane did in fact crash into the gulf of Thailand at a high rate of speed, wouldn't the relatively narrow depth (average depth at 80m, with a 777 length being 64m) cause it to break up upon impact with the sea floor (allowing debris to float to the surface)?

I've used that example time and time again since MH370 disappeared, however when SR 111 hit the sea near Halifax in a 20 degrees nose down attitude and 110 degrees bank, where the depth is roughly 55m, the aircraft literally exploded as it came at a speed of about 300 knots. Investigators determined that to turn a whole airliner and everything on board into what they found the force must have been of at least 350g. The majority of the debris were found on the sea floor in a not so large area.

[Edited 2014-03-10 14:11:07]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2014-03-10 14:10:32 and read 42285 times.

Quoting gatechae (Reply 226):
If the plane did in fact crash into the gulf of Thailand at a high rate of speed, wouldn't the relatively narrow depth (average depth at 80m, with a 777 length being 64m) cause it to break up upon impact with the sea floor (allowing debris to float to the surface)?

It is doubtful the plane would have reached the sea floor with the initial impact, no matter what angle it hit the surface.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-10 14:11:13 and read 42258 times.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 230):
How can someone determine which passenger is which from watching the surveillance videos?

They might take footage from the boarding procedure, then substract all the properly identified passengers (with the help of families etc.)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-10 14:11:40 and read 42251 times.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 230):
How can someone determine which passenger is which from watching the surveillance videos?

1. The government probably has all passport photos on file.
2. Next of kin can provide photographs.


Davod

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: krje1980
Posted 2014-03-10 14:12:32 and read 42405 times.

I have been lurking at these forums for many years, but do not post much. However, I thought I'd give my input as to what I think might have happened with MH370.

Like many others here, I think the whole "stolen passports" issue is a red herring, and I do not believe that this was an act of terrorism/hijacking.

What is interesting to me, though, is the fact that no distress call was sent from the cockpit, and no radars picked up the plane once it disappeared (which is why I also strongly doubt that hypoxia occurred). This is a strong indication, as countless people have pointed out in these threads, that whatever happened must have happened very fast. But if the plane exploded mid-air, then it is extremely strange that no debris has been found as of yet.

Could it therefore be possible that a very sudden mechanical failure/catastrophic event happened that knocked the pilots unconscious pretty much immediately (hence why no distress call)? Then perhaps the plane plummeted down and hit the ocean in such a way that massive disintegration occurred (as in SR111)? This could also explain why it has been difficult to locate debris.

I think this is more plausible than many of the other far-out scenarios suggested. "Plausible" admittedly being a relative term in this discussion.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-10 14:13:26 and read 42078 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 214):
Which roughly translates to: We still have no idea.

No it doesn't. They are clearly working on two hypothesis. The first is that the aircraft started descending at the last known position, and they've now extended that search. The second is that the aircraft headed back the way it came to the Malacca Strait then north west. What prompts them to consider this is presumably what they can't tell us. I can only assume it's either intelligence or military led.


[Edited 2014-03-10 14:15:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-10 14:14:05 and read 41442 times.

If whatever happened was indeed bad enough to disable ACARS I really wonder if FDR / CVR would have stayed operational... Can those be manually switched off on a 777? I remember how in case of Silk Air 185 they were switched off before the pilot sent the aircraft into a dive, at least based on official explanation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 345tas
Posted 2014-03-10 14:14:24 and read 41647 times.

"Things I can tell you and things I can't tell you".

Judging by the events of the past few days, I'd guess there are things they can't tell us because they have no idea what's going on, as opposed to knowing stuff that can't be disclosed.

Quoting isn't working for me but thanks a lot to the guy who explained very well about the diff between primary and secondary radar.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-10 14:15:27 and read 41510 times.

Quoting klebert (Reply 224):
in the hope to avoid discovery of black boxes (which the cockpit cannot disable)

I believe the CVR (and possibly FDR) can be shut off by pulling a breaker on the flight deck. This has been used as support for suicide theories in the past.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: A320FlyGuy
Posted 2014-03-10 14:16:14 and read 41106 times.

Quoting CptHaddock (Reply 153):
Something's ringing in my head: HYPOXIA.

I was thinking the same thing...but that begs the question...shouldn't an ACARS message have been generated? When an aircraft like the 777 needs a pressurization system to sustain the lives of it's passengers, any hypoxia situation should have sent out an ACARS warning. At the very least,an EICAS message in the cockpit would have alerted the crew to any sort of pressurization falure.

I was surprised to learn that the "enhanced" ACARS reporting that some aircraft have wasn't specified for this 777....I would have thought that a long range aircraft would have the more detailed ACARS reporting capability as standard...but I guess everything has a price tag and Malaysian decided against this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-10 14:16:40 and read 41071 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 229):
But you're pretty near-sighted for such a bold statement.

But in a situation like this, and if it is determined that terrorism is the result of this case, then he could/would easily become a scapegoat for providing a way on board the flight. Again, key word is if those stolen passports played a role at all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: aircatalonia
Posted 2014-03-10 14:16:56 and read 41148 times.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 220):
Could simply have been 5 connecting bags where there was some doubt if the pax would make the connection,
and therefore were held back until the last minute.

The fact that they are being investigated suggests to me that there isn't a straightforward explanation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2014-03-10 14:17:08 and read 41423 times.

Patrick Smith on what is known so far: http://www.askthepilot.com/malaysia-airlines-flight-370/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flylku
Posted 2014-03-10 14:18:31 and read 40804 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 53):

Primary radar, in theory, should show the location and path of a flying object regardless of whether it has a transponder--it's simply radio waves that bounce off a target and return. It just takes a bit more analysis.

Indeed. I was flying a Tri-Pacer (fabric and steel tubing, single engine) in 2000 over West Virginia when the transponder failed. We turned it off and asked Washington Center for flight following on the primary radar return and they were able to track us. I have to believe that even after an in flight breakup (if there was one) that the pieces of the wreckage would be significantly more reflective than our little fabric and steel tube airplane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: flyboy_se
Posted 2014-03-10 14:20:30 and read 40756 times.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 209):
Can anyone confirm this information?

- 5 bags or more removed from the hold
- Off chocks: 16:41
- STD: 16:35

Doesn't this sound unusually fast? I mean:

- Find which bag belongs to which container
- Offload containers
- Find bags and take them out
- Load containers again

And only 6 minutes late?

Depending on the airline, gate noshow passengers should not cause a delay. I know all airlines have their own procedures. At my airline, -20 minutes before STD the dispatcher starts looking on the baggage reconsiliation system where the bags are loaded. -10 minutes before STD gate is closed for those passengers and bags are offloaded. If you know the location it is fairly quick. The loadsheet is printed, and cabin doors are closed. Once the bags are offloaded the hold is closed and aircraft can push.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2014-03-10 14:21:32 and read 40443 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 210):
Ok so lets say there was a total loss of electrical power which would explain why ACARS,CPDCL,COMMs,Trasponder... etc was off, and they also had hypoxia, if the plane was trimmed correctly the plane would just fly on its own till fuel ran out but that is saying it flew in a straight line and it should of come back into radar. but if it was in a bank like FR shows of a heading of 24-40 now it could fly circles or be flown way off course and explain why they have not found it.

It would be seen on radar going in circles I presume.

In the Helios crash in 2005 the passengers and crew were incapacitated but fighter jets were scrambled to meet the plane.

Quoting klebert (Reply 224):
a) is it truly possible for cockpit personnel (pilot or otherwise) to turn off all outgoing communication originating from the aircraft... transponder, etc. but thinking especially of the AF447 automated transmissions directly to AF Paris hq.

From Reply 208, no ACARS messages were sent.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 208):
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sia-airlines-idUSBREA291D520140310

Just caught this - No Automated Messages from Missing Boeing Jet : Sources

1011yyz
Quoting klebert (Reply 224):
b) how low would have an aircraft to sink and fly in a controlled manner in order to avoid ATC radar (I do not think it is possible to avoid chance encounters with other radar or visuals)

From some of the posts I have seen the plane would have to fly under 1000ft. If they had turned off all lights on the plane at night any boat or ship on the sea nearby would hear it but it interesting to note at that exact time of the loss of radar there was no moonlight so a ship would not be able to see anything easily.

This is the day and night world map for the time of the crash and the moon is directly overhead where the white dot is.

http://www.timeanddate.com/scripts/sunmap.php?iso=20140307T1640

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-10 14:22:35 and read 40233 times.

It is worth pointing out that we have now seen two significant crashes of the 772 and twice (especially the last one (asiana)), the fuselages have remained intact.

Clearly there are many variables but based on the fuselage's past accident form it is a very good chance that once again the design proves its superiority again.

If that ends up being the case then the debris will be even more limited.

The needle shrinks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 14:23:17 and read 39982 times.

If you know the time a person checked in, you should be able to find them on the video fairly easily, then backtrack them through the airport.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: A320FlyGuy
Posted 2014-03-10 14:25:47 and read 41024 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 242):
I believe the CVR (and possibly FDR) can be shut off by pulling a breaker on the flight deck. This has been used as support for suicide theories in the past.

Indeed they can be shut off - Silk Air 185 was a case of pilot suicide and the NTSB believed that the FDR and CVR was shut off intentionally. When the CVR circuit breaker was pulled, there was just enough transient power in the circuit for the CVR to catch the sound of it's circuit breaker being pulled.

Auburn Calloway (who hijacked FedEx flight 705) pulled the circuit breakers for the FDR and CVR prior to take off, however it was noted during the pre-flight inspection and the flight engineer reset the breaker. Calloway's intention was to crash the DC-10 into FedEx headquarters and leave no record).

I can't recall if EgyptAir 990 had it's circuit breakers pulled...I think that the CVR remained functional until impact.

Mozambique Airlines Flight TM470 was a case of pilot suicide, but both the FDR and CVR remained functional until impact.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 14:26:44 and read 40412 times.

Did the spokesperson mean that no ACARS messages at all were sent, or that nothing but routine messages were sent?

I want to read "no signals" as meaning no anomalies were reported.  

No signals that anything was wrong?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-10 14:27:43 and read 40410 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 250):
It is worth pointing out that we have now seen two significant crashes of the 772 and twice (especially the last one (asiana)), the fuselages have remained intact.

Don't forget about Speedbird 38, but I don't know if you want to label it as significant as Asiana's.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 345tas
Posted 2014-03-10 14:29:08 and read 40444 times.

"IRANIAN LINK TO VANISHED JET" https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/443130381106020352/photo/1

Oh gosh. I also got a phone alert from Israel's supposedly high-brow newspaper with the headline "Report: Iran bought the tickets for the two travellers on [blah blah blah]" - Note the assumption that this Ali guy is an Iranian government agent.

Personally, the nature in which the tickets were bought (changed from via AUH & DOH) makes these two seem a lot less suspicious. Not to mention Iran would have no reason currently known to kill Malaysians or Chinese.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: mila
Posted 2014-03-10 14:30:33 and read 39784 times.

Could it be a suicide crash where whoever did fly it wanted it to be hard to find in order to avoid the shame for the family of the pilot flying, transponder/ACARS/CVR/FDR fuses off then ditching the aircraft nicely after(if possible) forcing a decompression to make the PAX sleep!

Its a long shot but would it not be possible?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-10 14:32:02 and read 39688 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 250):

How could you miss an intact 777 fuselage in ~50 meters of water though?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-10 14:32:38 and read 39339 times.

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 231):
not if the airplane crashed at a shallow angle- like a ditching angle. If no one was at the controls and the CG stayed consistent, then the airplane would fly, (up, down or level) at an airspeed around the cruise airspeed (IAS). so it could glide down and not crash at a high rate of speed.

What you explained is a very likely scenario but what would have prevented crew/pax from leaving the plane. Were they incapacitated? Did it sink like a rock?

OZ214 cartwheeling video is best evidence on how solid 777 is. Even if it brokeup on sea floor there wouldn't be much derbies compared to disintegration in air or on water surface.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 257):
How could you miss an intact 777 fuselage in ~50 meters of water though?

Visually, based on sunlight and how choppy the surface is you may not be able to see beyond 3 meters let alone 50 meters.

[Edited 2014-03-10 14:40:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-10 14:34:06 and read 39301 times.

Whew, we have already gone through 10 parts of this thread; each part with 250 posts without a single piece of debris being found. If i recall correctly, during the AF 447 disaster by the 10th part there were already confirmed sightings of debris. The MH370 disaster keeps getting more mysterious by the minute!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: Triple Seven
Posted 2014-03-10 14:34:09 and read 38924 times.

Wondering if anyone considered, if logical, of using SOSUS to possibly point the way to the plane's water impact point?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: ideekay
Posted 2014-03-10 14:38:25 and read 38717 times.

I think someone mentioned earlier that they had fuel for 7.4 hours.. so I made this calculation: 7.4 hours * 420 nm (is around that what a airplane flies in 1 hour) = 3108 nm * 1.852 = 5650 km
So I placed this radius over Kuala lumpur airport.

Then I created another radius after 1 hour of flying, 6.4 hours * 420 nm = 2688 nm * 1.852 = 4378 km.
So I placed a circle there where I GUESS that the plane lost contact.



Warning, this is only to have a little visualisation to see where they could have gone theoretically.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-10 14:38:51 and read 38093 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 259):
during the AF 447 disaster by the 10th part there were already confirmed sightings of debris.

I don't know at which time the debris were first seen, but with the case of AF447 there was at least the burst of data sent to Paris or Toulouse by the aircraft. So far, with MH370, we are still in the fog, a thick fog, at least officially.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-10 14:38:58 and read 38355 times.

Wow!!!

Looks like Scary Mary has been reading my posts on this site about the Bojinka Plot!!!

"The incident has some similarities to such incidents in the past, such as the 1994 bombing of a Philippine jetliner that investigators later learned was a test run for a wider plot to bomb numerous airliners, former U.S. Department of transportation Inspector General Mary Schiavo told CNN on Monday."

Geez, Mary, take it right from my posts on here and Straits Times, why don't ya!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: DUSdude
Posted 2014-03-10 14:40:16 and read 37905 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 250):
It is worth pointing out that we have now seen two significant crashes of the 772 and twice (especially the last one (asiana)), the fuselages have remained intact.Clearly there are many variables but based on the fuselage's past accident form it is a very good chance that once again the design proves its superiority again.

With all due respect, that is simply untrue. We have seen two low speed crash landings where the aircraft basically stalled at very low speed. Most aircraft would have stayed largely intact under those conditions. We don't know anything yet about the speed at which MH370 impacted whatever it turns out to have impacted. Whether or not it is intact will depend on that one factor: speed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: holzmann
Posted 2014-03-10 14:40:46 and read 37876 times.

The problem with wonderful tools like military satellites and SOSUS, etc. is that their capabilities are top secret. No one is suppose to know just how good (or bad) they are. Not even to find a plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2014-03-10 14:46:55 and read 36659 times.

Quoting ideekay (Reply 261):
I think someone mentioned earlier that they had fuel for 7.4 hours.. so I made this calculation: 7.4 hours * 420 nm (is around that what a airplane flies in 1 hour) = 3108 nm * 1.852 = 5650 km
So I placed this radius over Kuala lumpur airport.

They had fuel for 7.4 hours at cruise altitude and if they were at cruise altitude and off course then someone likely would have paid attention to the flight and tried to hail them. Failing that then I would think that they would send up some military aircraft to investigate.

If this plane was flying under the radar then it wouldn't have anywhere close to that range.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-10 14:49:48 and read 38608 times.

Hi All,

Part 11 has been created. Please continue the conversation here MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

All posts made after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Regards,
Pat


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