Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6020112/

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-12 04:23:19 and read 112439 times.

Due to length part 15 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 16.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome.


PLEASE KEEP IN MIND:


**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; could we please keep science fiction theories and content related to possible future movie rights out of these threads? ****

**** Please do not repeat questions and scenarios that were covered and discussed in previous threads and which do not contribute in a constructive manner towards the real topic any longer. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

**** Once again please be respectful towards other users and keep the forum rules and regulations in mind when posting in the forums. Should there be any rule violations, please bring this to the attention of the moderators by making use of the “suggest deletion function”. ****



Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-12 04:32:45 and read 112150 times.

Thanks to Mods for doing wonderful job here...Cheers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: madmouse
Posted 2014-03-12 04:32:53 and read 112309 times.

Saw this in Facebook about the Malaysia Airlines .

If allready posted feel free to delete It

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=498377323600299&set=p.498377323600299&type=1&theater

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: giopan1975
Posted 2014-03-12 04:34:14 and read 112341 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 243):
"The obvious reason why the airplane hasn't been found - yet - is a track change. How drastic and how far is the biggest question we could ask."

The farthest they drifted off course without mayday, the less possible the initial event was devastating (as in explosion). But they couldnt have gone so far (more than 5+ minutes into emergency) without notifying of an emergency. Then again no sign of debris close to point where communication was lost.

The more days without debris findings, the less possible the initial event was devastating.

Either people looking for the plane are useless or blind, or the plane was taken over by passengers or crew for some mysterious reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-12 04:39:08 and read 111830 times.

Quoting madmouse (Reply 2):

Saw this in Facebook about the Malaysia Airlines .

If allready posted feel free to delete It

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=498377323600299&set=p.498377323600299&type=1&theater

I did see this posted earlier, but I feel it is worth re-emphasising. It strikes me as the most credible report about this disappearance from any source.

I understand that the location described meshes with the reported sightings of a possible debris field by Cathay pilots, who should also be considered as reliable witnesses in this matter.

Let's hope that it will be followed through if it has not already.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-12 04:39:19 and read 111816 times.

Quoting madmouse (Reply 2):

So what's the deal with this email? Has it been validated by the authorities?

Has anyone plugged those GPS co-ords into Google earth ? Where does it take us?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-12 04:39:29 and read 111875 times.

Based purely on the eye-witness report from the oil rig, if the aircraft was a ball of fire, it indicates a pretty catastrophic event that kept the airframe relatively in tact. It would explain why it disappeared from the primary radar as communication systems got knocked out.

They really need to send a lot of SAR resource to that area.... There aren't many leads, so when you get something like this they should be jumping on it. Do you think they have flown out to the rig and interviewed the guy?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2014-03-12 04:40:03 and read 111797 times.

This post was about the last in the previous thread, so let me repeat it here with an addition:

Who controls the ATC in Malaysia - the military or a civilian government agency ?

If the military, then it is no wonder their spokespersons are so defensive and acting confused, the top leaders are likely no matter what of losing their jobs or forced into retirement, in a place where being in the military means financial security and allows to have great power. If the Government, it may mean a turn in party control, so many current leaders lose their jobs and lose the financial security and power they provide. This event may bring out huge revelations of corruption and incompetence of both the military and government triggering major changes in key appointed and elected positions.

There is also the ugly possibility of a terror act by some group or nut individual even someone in the cockpit that went rogue.

We need a international well coordinated search to be done, one that has to bring together countries to ignore their issues among them, for example China and the USA, who have important interests (China with their citizens the majority of the pax on board, the flight going to their country, the USA as the a/c was made in the USA). In the end it will take a coordinated effort to search, verify possible evidence and to hopefully find the answers we need to prevent another disaster like this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SeJoWa
Posted 2014-03-12 04:48:17 and read 110834 times.

Quoting madmouse (Reply 2):

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=498377323600299&set=p.498377323600299&type=1&theater

08 22 30.23 N 108 42 22.26 E

https://www.google.com/maps/place/8%C2%B022'30.2%22N+108%C2%B042'22.3%22E/@8.6276892,112.4058292,6z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

http://goo.gl/5vLF5S

[Edited 2014-03-12 04:49:13]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-12 04:51:42 and read 110538 times.

Copied from part 15


Quoting aw70 (Reply 249):
If you can potentially fly something the size of a T7 across the entire bloody country, and four days later they are still not sure whether that actually happened - in plain language that means your entire military airspace surveillance is worth precisely nothing.


I have been wondering how a large aircraft on an unexpected flight path towards Malaysia could not have set off alarm bells for the MAF. It seems to me quite possible that the lack of a response to an unidentified aircraft heading towards or reaching then overflying Malaysia has caused those who fell down on the job to suppress all information associated with this failing - in other words, that the MAF decided to keep quiet about this embarrassing lapse. It would be very diificult to own up now, wouldn't it?

I'm not saying that this is what happened, only that if if did, it could have led to the search being conducted in the wrong areas.

[Edited 2014-03-12 05:03:50]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PhilV
Posted 2014-03-12 04:53:27 and read 110296 times.

Quoting madmouse (Reply 2):
Saw this in Facebook about the Malaysia Airlines .

[quote=SeJoWa,reply=8]08 22 30.23 N 108 42 22.26 E

We could repeat everything form the last thread15. So we will come to part 20 soon.

Please... Come on.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-12 04:55:32 and read 110156 times.

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 8):
08 22 30.23 N 108 42 22.26 E

Using spherical trig, I worked out 8:22.4693N 108:4.0868E using the 270 bearing and 70 km from the position on a WGS84 spheroid.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-12 04:57:18 and read 109858 times.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 10):

Unlike you not everyone taking part in this discussion since initial thread hence some repeat information being traded.

By the way looking at map, does look realistic area for SAR.

[Edited 2014-03-12 04:58:53]

[Edited 2014-03-12 05:00:50]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 04:58:23 and read 109595 times.

Quoting aw70 from previous thread: "If you can potentially fly something the size of a T7 across the entire bloody country, and four days later they are still not sure whether that actually happened - in plain language that means your entire military airspace surveillance is worth precisely nothing. Total garbage."

Amen, my man, amen. I'm so surprised at some people here saying we shouldn't judge the Malaysian authorities because we don't have better solutions ourselves? We don't have the data! They do -- or, SHOULD.

Vietnam pulling out most of their SAR resources and basically saying, "We can't get a line out to these guys, we don't even know what they know" while Vietnam has been extremely forthcoming about every single potential lead they had tells a lot.

The sooner the NTSB starts looking into those radar logs the better. Didn't the US have a warship in the region? There are also classified space-based assets at play, what did they track? The triple-seven reflects radar nicely, but who knows if there were radar sats watching the area (and we will likely never know).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-12 05:04:32 and read 109067 times.

I want to know why Mandala doesn't buy them flying back over Malaysia.

with regards to the eyewitness report from the oil rig, I'd be amazed if you could spot a fire going out at 70km away. Even if the fire going out was point of impact, Jet A is volatile enough to keep burning. And there would be massive amounts of smoke, debris and other flights would have seen this in such clear skies.

Pihero, you talk about the redundancy of the electrical circuits... Are you hinting you think one of the pilots wanted a little joy ride and screwed up? Hence switching the transponder?

would certainly fit in with Mandala's main preoccupation with the FO... If something went wrong, they could have gone miles off course... To an area where there is less radar coverage.... Borneo maybe? Speculation again.... I fear you're right. We know nothing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: ChinaClipper40
Posted 2014-03-12 05:04:45 and read 109087 times.

After following this event on major media outlets (BBC, CBC, CNN) since its inception, and reading hundreds upon hundreds of posts in this forum, I am forced to one of the following conclusions:

1) The Malaysian authorities are deliberately hiding something very bad; something that would be horridly shocking to the rest of the world; or
2) The Malaysian authorities are kindergarten-level inept.

I personally lean toward the latter.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-12 05:04:47 and read 108816 times.

I saw part of the last press conference from authorities.... it is really heartbreaking to see that essentially they don't have a clue about the whereabouts of the aircraft and the souls on board....this event is really amazing.

Let's hope the weather remains good enough in the área to keep the search teams working.... although I have the feeling that if we cross some timelines, part of the countries that are currently helping with resources will abandon the efforts making the things even worst....

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Nav20
Posted 2014-03-12 05:07:08 and read 108523 times.

Quoting art (Reply 9):
I'm not saying that this is what happened, only that if if did, it could have led to the search being conducted in the wrong areas.

Agree, art. Came across this this afternoon. Given that the aircraft's intended course was north-east, towards mainland China, I can't for the life of me work out why the authorities would divert any resources at all to searching an area to the west-north-west, over the Malacca Strait?

Unless, of course, they suspect some sort of hijack?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-1...lane-malaysia-airlines-map/5314858

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PA515
Posted 2014-03-12 05:07:08 and read 108568 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
Using spherical trig, I worked out 8:22.4693N 108:4.0868E using the 270 bearing and 70 km from the position on a WGS84 spheroid.

Only problem is the CX pilot sighted debris at 9.72N 107.42E, according to avherald, and the current and wind in the email are in the opposite direction towards the south.

PA515

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PiedFly
Posted 2014-03-12 05:08:24 and read 108408 times.

I thought the media questions in that press conference were generally quite poor; they were either too easy to be dismissed, or were poorly phrased so that the panel could proceed by repeating some information.

Given the 'inexperienced' nature of the panel facing questions, some well thought out and constructed questions could've gleaned extra info. Of course, perhaps the right reporters were not indicated to ask as they already have reputations for pertinent questions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Pihero
Posted 2014-03-12 05:12:11 and read 107850 times.

I guess I need to make myself clear : I am not against speculations, however far-fetched they could be. I am just apalled by the lack of knowledge from aviation people.
And more than anything, I am against disparaging any country just because it doesn't belong to the western hemisphere.

With the pitiful amount of facts at our disposal, there is THE big question :

Why didn't the crew manage to contact one ATC about a seriouis problem ? ... and a corollary :

Why did ATC lose the flight's transponder ?
At IGARI, both K L and HCM were in radar coverage of the airway... yet both couldn't have a response from MH370's squawk.
There are not so many possibile occurrencies that answer these questions in a logical manner :
- One is a takeover from one of the flight deck crew members...
- Another is a fire in the electronic bay (s) of the airplane
... ... ... ... ... ...
As someone who studied aircraft systems, IFE in particular is one of the most vulnerable systems in an airliner...
BUt I'm speculating as much as most of us here...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 05:13:04 and read 107757 times.

Does anyone have a link to a recording of the presser? I woke up right as it was winding down.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: aw70
Posted 2014-03-12 05:16:39 and read 107083 times.

Quoting art (Reply 9):
I have been wondering how a large aircraft on an unexpected flight path towards Malaysia could not have set off alarm bells for the MAF.

Exactly this. And "setting off the alarm bells" would not necessarily mean that interceptors are sent up to investigate. In peacetime, few countries maintain fighters on 24/7 QRA. No idea whether the MAF has any planes on QRA at night, but given that the entire area is reasonably peaceful, and given that their resources are not overwhelmingly large, I would assume they do not.

However, military airspace surveillance should never sleep. Ever. And they have to know what is going on in their airspace. At all times. No excuses. If such surveillance is done competently, one of the most obvious things to set off all alarm bells within reach would be a significant radar contact that does not correlate with any ATC data. And few things would generate a stronger radar return than a T7, even with all transponders and such firmly off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-12 05:20:09 and read 106492 times.

Officials investigating the disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER are tight-lipped about Aircraft Communications and Reporting System (ACARS) data reported by the aircraft.

Malaysia’s Department of Civil Aviation is examining ACARS data from the missing aircraft, but senior DCA officials declined to comment on their findings, if any. They also declined to say when ACARS data from flight MH370 will be released – or even if it will be.

In response to a question posed by Flightglobal about the aircraft’s ACARS data, one of the officials cited the “sensitivity of the investigations.”

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-mh370-acars-transmissions-396857/

I get the impression that (a) things are being done too slowly (b) the authority does not welcome its work being scrutinised

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: polnebmit
Posted 2014-03-12 05:20:20 and read 107240 times.

I have to ask this question again or rephrase it since it doesn't seem that it was answered. Is there any information as to why it seems that 9M-MRO was grounded in KUL for an extended period of time after it came from HKG? According to FR24, 9M-MRO flew in from PEK hours earlier as MH371 before turning around as incident flight MH370, but interestingly flight MH370 to PEK using 9M-MRO had been cancelled the day before which makes it impossible to have it come in from PEK if it never got there in first place. If the cancelation is true, this means that 9M-MRO sat in KUL for an entire day between the incoming flight from HKG and before the incident flight since it never went to PEK the day before. Again, if this is true, what was the reason? Why was flight MH370 grounded the day before the incident flight? Mechanincal issues?

[Edited 2014-03-12 05:22:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 05:25:26 and read 108377 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 14):
with regards to the eyewitness report from the oil rig, I'd be amazed if you could spot a fire going out at 70km away. Even if the fire going out was point of impact, Jet A is volatile enough to keep burning. And there would be massive amounts of smoke, debris and other flights would have seen this in such clear skies.

I dunno. At night over the ocean, you can see aircraft lights a long way. A fire would be more visible.

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 15):
After following this event on major media outlets (BBC, CBC, CNN) since its inception, and reading hundreds upon hundreds of posts in this forum, I am forced to one of the following conclusions:

1) The Malaysian authorities are deliberately hiding something very bad; something that would be horridly shocking to the rest of the world; or
2) The Malaysian authorities are kindergarten-level inept.

I personally lean toward the latter.

Possibility 3) They aren't really that bad at SAR ops per se but they aren't experienced in handling the international press or coordinating SAR ops with eight other countries, several of which they have territorial disputes with in this very area. The latter challenge isn't trivial.

Quoting art (Reply 24):

Officials investigating the disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER are tight-lipped about Aircraft Communications and Reporting System (ACARS) data reported by the aircraft.

Malaysia’s Department of Civil Aviation is examining ACARS data from the missing aircraft, but senior DCA officials declined to comment on their findings, if any. They also declined to say when ACARS data from flight MH370 will be released – or even if it will be.

In response to a question posed by Flightglobal about the aircraft’s ACARS data, one of the officials cited the “sensitivity of the investigations.”

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-mh370-acars-transmissions-396857/

I get the impression that (a) things are being done too slowly (b) the authority does not welcome its work being scrutinised

Possibility c) They don't want to talk about it until they have something definite to talk about, and/or they don't to taint the rest of the investigation. Discretion can be a good thing in these situations.

[Edited 2014-03-12 05:26:46]

[Edited 2014-03-12 05:27:05]

[Edited 2014-03-12 05:29:35]

[Edited 2014-03-12 05:31:18]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-12 05:27:21 and read 108913 times.

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 15):

After following this event on major media outlets (BBC, CBC, CNN) since its inception, and reading hundreds upon hundreds of posts in this forum, I am forced to one of the following conclusions:

1) The Malaysian authorities are deliberately hiding something very bad; something that would be horridly shocking to the rest of the world; or
2) The Malaysian authorities are kindergarten-level inept.

I personally lean toward the latter.

I agree with you totally - and there is a third possibility:

3) Malaysian authorities have NOTHING to go on, can't figure out why, and are embarrassed by that fact.

Which would lead me to conclude what I have been feeling in my gut all along.....that the oil rig worker's email may be the only thing worthwhile looking into, and we need to start turning our eyes towards the South China Sea.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 05:30:31 and read 110449 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 13):
If you can potentially fly something the size of a T7 across the entire bloody country, and four days later they are still not sure whether that actually happened - in plain language that means your entire military airspace surveillance is worth precisely nothing. Total garbage.

Same is true for 150+ other countries on earth. Most countries don't have a need to build up their air defenses. Malaysia is a tiny peaceful country lives on commerce and tourism.

No one is stopping China from mobilizing their vast resources.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 13):
Didn't the US have a warship in the region? There are also classified space-based assets at play, what did they track? The triple-seven reflects radar nicely, but who knows if there were radar sats watching the area (and we will likely never know).

This happened in worlds most active surveillance and reconnaissance area. US is spying on China and India, China and India are spying on each other. Entire South China sea is monitored by US. 750NM of Andaman and Nicobar area is under heavy surveillance by India.

Everyone is very quiet because nobody want to reveal their capabilities.

This happened at night. Only US, Russia, Germany, Israel and India have satellites with night time radar imaging capability. Were they covering the area when it happened. No one knows. If it is sitting in deep waters of Bay of Bengal its not going to picked up by satellite imagery.

So don't except any country with capability to come out publicly, they may slip hints to Malaysia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: giopan1975
Posted 2014-03-12 05:30:32 and read 110274 times.

Maybe it has been already been answered but

Why arent they searching over mainland Malaysia?

Maybe some villager in some remote jungle area saw something but he has no phone or internet to communicate.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2014-03-12 05:33:42 and read 110073 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 27):
I have to ask this question again or rephrase it since it doesn't seem that it was answered. Is there any information as to why it seems that 9M-MRO was grounded in KUL for an extended period of time after it came from HKG? According to FR24, 9M-MRO flew in from PEK hours earlier as MH371 before turning around as incident flight MH370, but interestingly flight MH370 to PEK using 9M-MRO had been cancelled the day before which makes it impossible to have it come in from PEK if it never got there in first place. If the cancelation is true, this means that 9M-MRO sat in KUL for an entire day before the incident flight since it never went to PEK the day before. Again, if this is true, what was the reason? Why was flight MH370 grounded the day before the incident flight? Mechanincal issues?

Strange this doesn't seem to have been discussed here before (at least I can't remember). But according to flightstats.com, on Friday, 7 March, flight MH 370 was on time, only the return MH 371 was cancelled. This would mean a Malaysian 777-200 having been stranded at PEK?!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-12 05:34:08 and read 110071 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 25):

If I am not wrong, MAS CEO said they don't yet...When plane crashes first thing I would assume they would do is to check maintenance record and history of that bird. Don't know he was ignorant or he honestly don't know about maintenance or he doesn't want to give any answer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: us330
Posted 2014-03-12 05:34:50 and read 109571 times.

This is more of a technical set of questions than anything else, directed towards those with experience with radar and knowing how these systems work. I have absolutely no technical background in the field, so please correct any assumptions my questions may presume (out of benign ignorance).

The aircraft's transponder was turned off and the flight deck was not communicating. From what I understand (like I said, please correct me if I am wrong), when a transponder is turned off, radar systems are only capable of detecting an unidentified/anonymous blip on the screen. Since the blip is anonymous, then how can the Royal Malaysian Air Force be certain that the blip they detected near Pulau Perak was in fact MH370? Are there other ways off identifying/verifying blips (other than visually intercepting them) based on the information that was available to the RMAF or other radar stations in the area?

Based on the aircraft's presumed flight path, the aircraft flew relatively near three relatively busy airports with frequent commercial service (Khota Bharu on the eastern coast and between Langkawi and Penang on the western coast). Do these airports have radar systems that could have detected MH370, and were there air traffic controllers on duty at each of those airports?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-12 05:38:22 and read 108906 times.

Quoting giopan1975 (Reply 29):
Maybe it has been already been answered but

Why arent they searching over mainland Malaysia?

Maybe some villager in some remote jungle area saw something but
he has no phone or internet to communicate.

I think perhaps with the amount of air traffic going across the peninsula a wreckage would
have been spotted already?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JHwk
Posted 2014-03-12 05:39:51 and read 108918 times.

Quoting art (Reply 24):
Officials investigating the disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER are tight-lipped about Aircraft Communications and Reporting System (ACARS) data reported by the aircraft.

From the sound of previous reports, they only get engine data on 30-minute intervals. There was one report at takeoff, and a second report at climb to cruise. There was no third report from what has been stated, so the engine was either not running, its ACARS was disabled, or it was somehow unable to transmit.

Starting to get the feeling that the simplest explanation is the most likely. Unfortunately that doesn't help figure out where the plane crashed. 20 minutes flying time from the point of last contact gives a pretty large radius.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: COEWR787
Posted 2014-03-12 05:41:21 and read 108458 times.

Does ARINC have access to the ACARS data in addition to the airline in question? This is not a rhetorical question. I don;t know the details of how ACARS communication is handled and what role is played by ARINC in day to day operation of the aircraft to ground data link, and would genuinely like to know, specifically in this context of the availability of the ACARS messages to analyze.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-12 05:43:00 and read 108359 times.

I have a feeling that if the plane isn't found soon, the families might get so fed up with Malaysian that they'll sue them for the info that we all suspect that they're hiding. I would in their situation. I mean, we're going on almost a week since the crash and not even so much as a safety card from the plane has been found!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mpsrent
Posted 2014-03-12 05:43:50 and read 108141 times.

Realizing that its easy to be a keyboard critic, I admit that I don't have the expertise to judge the credibility of the Malaysian authorities.

I do have expertise as to the value of credible and factual communications. I believe that the Malaysians would increase their credibility if they clearly communicated through one source what exactly they do know to be factual, even if it only amounts to minimal information. The flood of confusing and conflicting information is damaging their reputation. If the real issue is that the Malaysian authorities are more concerned about revealing to the world that their civil defenses may not be working, it seems that the world has already figured that problem out.

In the absence of factual information, the media and public will draw their own conclusions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2014-03-12 05:47:27 and read 107487 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 27):

3) Malaysian authorities have NOTHING to go on, can't figure out why, and are embarrassed by that fact.

My impression is that this is the most likely. While I have yet to see any government agency in any country not have its share (or more than its share) of incompetence, I also believe (and have observed for the most part) that only governments led by tinpot dictators (which I do not consider Malaysia to be) to be completely incompetent. And a situation like this where there is absolutely no credible evidence of what happened and is so unexpected it is so easy to look incompetent when you are really just at a complete loss.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-12 05:49:04 and read 107201 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):

- One is a takeover from one of the flight deck crew members...
- Another is a fire in the electronic bay (s) of the airplane

The fire in the electronic bay should be the less probable of the two IMHO. This 777 was manufactured some years after the Swiss 111 crash, and the chance of such a catastrophic and rapidly spreading fire should be very small, don't you think? ( Of course I'm making the assumption of Boeing following the TSB recommendations after Swiss 111 regarding the use of MPET in the electronic bay and IFE wiring ).

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-12 05:51:36 and read 106635 times.

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 17):
I can't for the life of me work out why the authorities would divert any resources at all to searching an area to the west-north-west, over the Malacca Strait?

Then you have a lot of catching up to do.

Quoting us330 (Reply 32):
how can the Royal Malaysian Air Force be certain that the blip they detected near Pulau Perak was in fact MH370?

They haven't said they're certain of anything like that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: YokoTsuno
Posted 2014-03-12 05:53:08 and read 106677 times.

Quoting p201055r From Ireland (Reply 250):
…. consider the background of the individuals we’re seeing on our screens.

Figures of authority in a power-centric State (I mean no disrespect to Malaysia or its citizens), unused to being questioned time and again by international media. They say it, they say it once, it’s the truth - that’s their culture.

Their exposure to media will most likely have been non-confrontational in the past, their interviews with the press well managed by their media handlers and on a you-don’t-embarrass-me and I-won’t-hurt-you understanding. This is probably true for the DGA, maybe the Minister and even the CEO of MH.

Suddenly, however, they find themselves in the stressful if not confrontational arena of international media, being beamed into homes all around the World.

Not an easy place to be with skilled reporters trying to pick holes in your story, to get the “angle”, to solve the mystery. Not an easy place to be either if your service - Army, Navy or Air Force - hasn’t been as efficient as it should have been or if the hideously expensive equipment which was bought didn’t live up to its expectations.
Add in fears over disclosing too much about defence structures, responses, states of readiness and it is surprising these people dare to open their mouths.

I felt the Chief of Defence Staff today was attempting to be realistic and human in explaining why the Straits search was ordered and was continuing; the AF Chief attempting to be forthcoming about the last suspected primary radar contact.

OK the MH CEO should have had the AD compliance facts.


After working myself through two dozen, rather uneducated posts, on the Malaysian press conference, finally somebody with a correct understanding of what is happening here. It probably doesn't mean much to you, but from now your RR does no longer show a zero. Cheers  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 05:53:45 and read 106281 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
And more than anything, I am against disparaging any country just because it doesn't belong to the western hemisphere.

Agh, friend, it is not about disparaging the country or its people, just its government and their handling of the case. I think I speak for everyone when I say nobody here thinks bad thoughts about Malaysian people in general.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-12 05:56:08 and read 105521 times.

Quoting JHwk (Reply 34):
Quoting art (Reply 24):Officials investigating the disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER are tight-lipped about Aircraft Communications and Reporting System (ACARS) data reported by the aircraft.
From the sound of previous reports, they only get engine data on 30-minute intervals. There was one report at takeoff, and a second report at climb to cruise. There was no third report from what has been stated

The idea of a press conference is to pass information to the press, so why do they not say how many packets of data were sent by the ACARS system and when? The recipient of any received data is bound to know.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2014-03-12 05:56:36 and read 106077 times.

CBS This Morning TV news show will be interviewing CPT Sully Sullinberger shortly.

They have announced that he will be discussing missing 777. If USAers are interested, this segment has not been presented yet at this time of my posting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PhilV
Posted 2014-03-12 05:59:41 and read 105729 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 39):

I came across this on a 777.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...2_2007__boeing_777_222__n786ua.cfm

This event happening during cruise would be..... alt least not that good.

Regards.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: travelhound
Posted 2014-03-12 06:03:31 and read 104651 times.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 4):
Let's hope that it will be followed through if it has not already.

I have done a quick overlay of the current search areas against the co-ordinates in the email and this area is currently not being searched?

Who controls these waters? I know Vietnam has been in dispute with China for many years about the rights of the gas and oil reserves in this region. It might be the case diplomacy is a bigger factor in this than we imagine!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Nav20
Posted 2014-03-12 06:04:08 and read 104472 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 40):
Quoting Nav20 (Reply 17): I can't for the life of me work out why the authorities would divert any resources at all to searching an area to the west-north-west, over the Malacca Strait?
Then you have a lot of catching up to do.


Meaning what, David-L? That I'm wrong, or that the Indonesian aviation authorities are way short of being 100% competent in many areas?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2014-03-12 06:04:33 and read 104336 times.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 23):

Quoting art (Reply 9):
I have been wondering how a large aircraft on an unexpected flight path towards Malaysia could not have set off alarm bells for the MAF.

Exactly this. And "setting off the alarm bells" would not necessarily mean that interceptors are sent up to investigate. In peacetime, few countries maintain fighters on 24/7 QRA. No idea whether the MAF has any planes on QRA at night, but given that the entire area is reasonably peaceful, and given that their resources are not overwhelmingly large, I would assume they do not.

The Malaysian Airforce has at best 36 interceptor aircraft, its likely that on any one day day they would be able to deploy less than half of them. Meanwhile they have 1200 miles of coastline and few if any valid threats, this may well explain why a mystery trace on the radar wouldn't be investigated. Likewise the radar coverage may well not be too hot either.

I think we can all be deluded into the capabilities of military radars, aircraft etc. I know I was. Recently I read a book written by an ex RAF Phantom navigator, it was quite a shock to see just how short the range was on the radar and weapons systems of the 1970's/80's and this was the UK actively maintaining a 24/7 alert over the Iceland - Norway Gap. I doubt that the capability in parts of the World is any better now than what I was reading about here in the UK 30 years ago, and why would it be ? Military hardware costs always seem to rise faster than an ability to pay for them.

There's been much criticism here of the Malaysian Authorities, on the lines that they "don't have clue" in one way thats correct they don't have any definite information on where this plane has ended up, what has been obvious for some time is that its not where it credibly could be. Additionally the last radio report was its handover to Vietnam, logically it follows that its Vietnam who lost it, not Malaysia. I've followed aviation for more than 35 years, I can't ever recollect anything like this before, we seem to have headed back to the era when planes would take off, not arrive at their destination and some wreckage would be found years later in a desert or a glacier.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-12 06:05:26 and read 104009 times.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 45):

This event happening during cruise would be..... alt least not that good.

Well I would think that they still would have been able to send out a mayday or
change the Squawk code or something like that,.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2014-03-12 06:06:51 and read 103677 times.

We live in a world where technology is king and everyone believes to be being watched 24/7, in some way its still great that we as a human race still cannot control everything and know everything and/or have access to anything in 5 minutes.

This tragedy makes it clear that there are some things that still can baffle us and escape our control. the 16 threads about this flight and the speed of the speculation makes it clear we are expecting closure in some way, to feel that we have control, we are safe or there is a logical explanation.

This tragedy is a big reminder that we are still pretty far away from controlling everything.

TRB

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Shanwick1011Z
Posted 2014-03-12 06:07:07 and read 103868 times.

Back to simplicity.

Of the trillions and trillions of words printed on this incident has it yet been printed in the public domain

whether this aircraft carried more fuel than the previous three trips on this route?

That is a question that does not require knowledge of fancy electronics or interpretation of radar returns.

Had this incident happened in the USA it would have been in the public domain long ago.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: TreeHillRavens
Posted 2014-03-12 06:07:10 and read 104150 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 25):
Is there any information as to why it seems that 9M-MRO was grounded in KUL for an extended period of time after it came from HKG? According to FR24, 9M-MRO flew in from PEK hours earlier as MH371 before turning around as incident flight MH370, but interestingly flight MH370 to PEK using 9M-MRO had been cancelled the day before which makes it impossible to have it come in from PEK if it never got there in first place.
Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 30):
Strange this doesn't seem to have been discussed here before (at least I can't remember). But according to flightstats.com, on Friday, 7 March, flight MH 370 was on time, only the return MH 371 was cancelled. This would mean a Malaysian 777-200 having been stranded at PEK?!

9M-MRO operated flight MH73 from HKG back to KUL before it operated as flight MH370 from KUL to PEK about 6 hours 26 minutes later.

MH371 on March 8th, 2014 was cancelled as the incoming plane that was supposed to fly back to KUL as MH371 never landed.

[Edited 2014-03-12 06:15:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-12 06:07:31 and read 103678 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 36):
the info that we all suspect that they're hiding.

What info are they supposed to be hiding? Do you think they know where the aircraft came down but are keeping it a secret?

I don't have any reason to suspect they're hiding anything. They have the last known position in the gulf of Thailand, and a possible radar return in the Malacca Strait. Their search areas are entirely consistent with that information (all the seemingly contradictory stuff has come from the press). If nothing is found in those areas you keep widening until something is. Or until something washes up.

The spoilt "I want wreckage and I want it NOW!!!" stuff is a bit embarrassing IMO. If, when we have an idea what happened, it becomes apparent that the Malaysian (or Vietnamese, Thai, Cambodian, Indonesian etc etc - let's not forget the aircraft could have come down in their territory) SAR effort should have found it earlier, then lay into them. But the situation where an aircraft disappears off secondary radar, stops sending ACARS messages yet the wreckage is not relatively close to that point would have any nation scratching their heads.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-12 06:09:56 and read 103258 times.

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 47):
Meaning what, David-L? That I'm wrong, or that the Indonesian aviation authorities are way short of being 100% competent in many areas?

   No. Meaning the reason for extending the search to the Malacca Strait (no mention of "diverting resources") has been explained and discussed for a couple of days now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 06:12:08 and read 102348 times.

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 47):


Meaning what, David-L? That I'm wrong, or that the Indonesian aviation authorities are way short of being 100% competent in many areas?

IIRC, they do have some radar data indicating a heading change before the disappearance. A left turn. The search over towards the Malacca Straights was due to that last heading indication.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 06:14:46 and read 102328 times.

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 17):
I can't for the life of me work out why the authorities would divert any resources at all to searching an area to the west-north-west, over the Malacca Strait?

Quoting the Guardian:

"An official gave the position of the last radar signal at 2.15am as 200 miles north west of the mainland. But he said this needed to be corroborated."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...nded-into-andaman-sea-live-updates

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PhilV
Posted 2014-03-12 06:15:30 and read 101885 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 49):
Well I would think that they still would have been able to send out a mayday or
change the Squawk code or something like that,.

I would assume that as well..

But, lack of situational awareness... who knows.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PA515
Posted 2014-03-12 06:15:54 and read 102134 times.

Quoting polnebmit (Reply 25):
MH370 to PEK using 9M-MRO had been cancelled the day before

The 'cancelled' annotation for the 06 Mar on the 9M-MRO flightradar24 summary is an error. If you replay from 1650 UTC on 06 Mar you get 9M-MRO doing MH370. It was MH370 on 06 Mar and 07 Mar.

But the flights departed 0049 07 Mar and 0041 08 Mar local time

PA515

[Edited 2014-03-12 06:20:01]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-12 06:16:27 and read 102123 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 53):
Their search areas are entirely consistent with that information (all the seemingly contradictory stuff has come from the press)

   Something that many are still failing to realise.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-12 06:16:54 and read 101919 times.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 30):
Strange this doesn't seem to have been discussed here before (at least I can't remember). But according to flightstats.com, on Friday, 7 March, flight MH 370 was on time, only the return MH 371 was cancelled. This would mean a Malaysian 777-200 having been stranded at PEK?!

Yup, I noticed this when I looked up 9M-MRO the day after the accident, I assumed that it was bad data or it was ferried back empty (which should have been caught in FR24). I guess it is surprising that nobody has mentioned this anomoly, you would have expected the press to delve into if the cancelled flight had any connection to the disapearence.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-12 06:20:04 and read 101346 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 26):
Possibility c) They don't want to talk about it until they have something definite to talk about, and/or they don't to taint the rest of the investigation. Discretion can be a good thing in these situations.

Why would they start now? They haven't shown ANY discretion at all IMHO through out this entire thing.

I agree with your statement though, discretion should be exercised, but hasn't at all.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 45):

I came across this on a 777.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...2_2007__boeing_777_222__n786ua.cfm

This event happening during cruise would be..... alt least not that good.

Good find - this might explain the sudden nature of the plane disappearing off the map, and possibly being unable to communicate verbally.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: breiz
Posted 2014-03-12 06:21:07 and read 101222 times.

China is reported to divert 10 high-resolution satellites to scan the area:
http://www.todayonline.com/world/asi...deploys-10-satellites-search-mh370
I have a few questions about that:
- Are so many satellites needed to cover the area?
- Has China really that many "spy" satellites available in suitable orbits to allow an efficient diversion?
These satellites are supposed to be used to find debris, or more probably fields of debris.
- Can't weather satellites past pictures be used to try and see the plane when she was still flying?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-12 06:24:42 and read 100640 times.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 45):
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 39):
I came across this on a 777.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...2_2007__boeing_777_222__n786ua.cfm

This event happening during cruise would be..... alt least not that good.

Regards.

Yes but N786UA ( the 777 involved in that incident ) was delivered in 1997, well before Swiss 111. Probably they used MPET in that aircraft and I'm not sure if the TSB recommendation after Swiss 111 included all aircraft ( i.e. manufactured before the recommendation ) or applied only to the new frames after the report.

In any case, the same report mentions 11 similar incidents in 777's, it would be nice to see how old were the other 10 !!

Rgds.

G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-12 06:27:18 and read 100127 times.

To judge how big the combined search areas are: 27.000 square miles/70.000 square kms are roughly the size of the German state of Bavaria or the US state of South Carolina, and a bit smaller than Scotland. Not that vast not to be able to find something in a few days time I would say, before I was checking it I thought it was more.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: anatolialevant
Posted 2014-03-12 06:27:25 and read 100254 times.

Hi! I've been reading A.Net for a long time, but for this moment, I am intrigued to talk my own speculation (I know, it's tiring to see another speculation):

1. When they asked to switch radio at IGARI, they acknowledge, and after that a tech problem arises.
2. Possibly due to completely occupied by fixing (or even analyzing) the problem, they forgot to switch radio comms, and flew outside Malaysia ARTCC. With copilot lacking the very deep knowledge of 777 (I heard that the copilot is just transitioning to 777 for short amount of time), he surely not helpful enough to solve the situation fast.
3. By the time they realized the situation to be dangerous, they radio MAYDAY, but to no avail since they have left the radio range of Malaysia ARTCC.
4. The pilots think they lose all comms (and on later stage of flight, they did), and trying to turn back, but the situation worsened. Mixed with spatial disorientation, confused, and heavily stressed, the AVIATE and NAVIGATE requirements weren't done properly, and the crash happened.

Some questions will surely arise from my scenario, and here's my answer:
1. Why don't they simply change comm frequency instead?
- Again, fully occupied with fixing the problems, they now forget to switch comm. Even if they realize they have to switch, they might be to stressed enough to forget the frequency number (Short-Term Memory Loss due to stress?).

2. Transponder cutout at IGARI?
- I guess this is where the real problem is dangerous enough for them, and the tech fault have killed the transponder.

3. Why not descending and landing at Ho Chi Minh City?
- The airport is surely capable of handling 777 (at least VN has few of them), but with possible loss of navigation aid, spatial disorientation and heavy stresses, they might forget about the airport itself. Or, maybe even worse, they actually trying to, but lost on the path to SGN, decided to fly low by the Strait of Malacca (thinking they're still at the gulf of Vietnam) to help them seeing the airport, and that's where they fly too low and crashed (or maybe CFIT).

A mixup between losing situational awareness, spatial disorientation (due to night flight), and possible loss of navigational instruments is more believable to me than some hijacking story. I think something like EA Flight 401, but with real deadly problems.
Again, this is just my 2 cents, and my own guess on scenario. In this total chaos, anything is possible, even the simplest error can be the nail in the coffin for them. Praying the best for the families and the SAR teams.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-12 06:33:06 and read 99830 times.

Found this on NHK:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/news/20140312_26.html

This is the interesting part:

Quote:
The sources say the Malaysian military tracked the object flying westward for 70 minutes. They say it crossed the Malay Peninsula and its signal disappeared at 2:40 AM on Saturday over the Strait of Malacca.

This is about 550 kilometers away from the point where the plane disappeared.

But government officials analyzed the military data and said the radar signal was weaker than that of an ordinary passenger jet. They said the object was also flying slower than usual for an aircraft.

Here is my 100% speculative addition to the discussion.

What if the object tracked by radar was an unmanned military drone (American, Chinese, Malay, Vietnamese, ...) which crossed the flighpath of MH370. The pilots spotted the drone on collision path toward their airplane and the aircraft broke up due to a catastrophic structural failure during a high-G emergency avoidance maneuver. This could explain:

1) Lack of distress call
2) Anybody responsible for the drone will stay tight-lipped and will take steps to maintain the information as secret as possible.

Of course this does not explain why no rests of the crashed airplane have been found to date. Or maybe something has been found but because the military is involved the information is kept secret.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 06:33:48 and read 99080 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 56):
"An official gave the position of the last radar signal at 2.15am as 200 miles north west of the mainland. But he said this needed to be corroborated."

IOW, that probably was not 9M-MRO...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: passenger8170
Posted 2014-03-12 06:34:43 and read 99180 times.

New member to airliners.net. I've had an interest in plane crashes for many years now and have loved the discussion so far despite it being under the worst of circumstances.

The discussion has mainly focused on the plane and the technology but I'd like to hear more about the people. For example, the plane was mostly filled with Chinese citizens. If they discovered the plane was off course and being hijacked would they have tried to mount some kind assault on the cockpit like Flight 93. Is it in their culture to do something like that? Or, would they be obedient and allow the hijacker(s) to go about their plan? The answer could affect how far the plane went before crashing (I believe that's what happened, by the way.)

And if the passengers were the type to try to take back the jet, and maybe this is an industry secret, how impenetrable are the cockpit doors? If a hijacker has locked himself in the cockpit, besides knowing the secret code, is there really no way for passengers to break in over the course of say 10 minutes or 20 minutes using whatever they can find in the passenger area? Yes, I suppose at that point the hijacker may point the jet at the ocean. But, if the hijacker was intent on actually landing the plane on a runway, could the passengers break in and somehow get back control of the plane?

I've heard a lot of glowing remarks made about the captain. And not so glowing stories about the First Officer. I'm wondering if the Captain would've gone along with the FO regarding allowing people into the cockpit during the flight. The Captain seemed like a "go by the book" type of guy. But, could he have let his guard down and they let in the wrong person or persons? Having said that, I think the pilot and co-pilot should be under a lot of suspicion. If it was some kind of suicide by one of them, could the reason be that those pics of the co-pilot allowing those women into the cockpit were going to come out and the co-pilot was going to get fired, and he was distraught over that? As for the captain, I haven't read anywhere of him having any family? Divorced? Children? Being a single man might make it easier for him to decide to take his own life.

Once again, I'd like to hear more about the people onboard. Also, does anybody know how long it would take to at least do a minimal in-depth check of the passengers and their backgrounds? Would that have started already? Yes, I know about the guys with the fake passports. But, the rest of the people who were flying with real ones. As for the pilots, at what point do authorities start looking at their home computers and what they've been doing on the Internet?

Thanks.

[Edited 2014-03-12 06:38:43]

[Edited 2014-03-12 06:39:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: dtfg
Posted 2014-03-12 06:39:55 and read 97909 times.

Quoting breiz (Reply 62):
China is reported to divert 10 high-resolution satellites to scan the area:
http://www.todayonline.com/world/asi...deploys-10-satellites-search-mh370
I have a few questions about that:
- Are so many satellites needed to cover the area?
- Has China really that many "spy" satellites available in suitable orbits to allow an efficient diversion?
These satellites are supposed to be used to find debris, or more probably fields of debris.
- Can't weather satellites past pictures be used to try and see the plane when she was still flying?


You know, the news is more than likely to serve for propaganda purposes. The Gov wants to convince the public that they are doing whatever they can to find the plane. Actually, AFAIK, many of the satellites they used are not "spy" satellites, rather, they are weather satellites and communication satellites just to provide weather information and support communications.

yb

[Edited 2014-03-12 06:43:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-12 06:43:33 and read 97134 times.

A couple of questions:

1. If it had so much fuel wouldn't it make sense to project out the flightpath to see when it ran out of fuel - Indian Ocean?
2. Just because they had it on radar in the Strait, what suggests it crashed there?
3. If it continued to the SW, woudn't it show on Indonesian radar if in fact it overflew the peninsula?
4. One expert claims if a electical problem caused the autopilot to reset, that the programmed route would be canceled and the autopilot would follow the heading of the departiure runway. Any thoughts about that?
5. Since it has been shown that an airliner can land on water without breaking up (USAIR 1549), it's conceiveable that it toucheddown intact and then sank leaving almost no surface trace, yes?

[Edited 2014-03-12 06:44:57]

[Edited 2014-03-12 07:03:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-12 06:44:08 and read 96758 times.

Quoting breiz (Reply 61):
- Can't weather satellites past pictures be used to try and see the plane when she was still flying?

I don't know, but I don't think the weather satellites have the "zoom" needed for that.

Here are some example of weather satellites:
http://www.smhi.se/vadret/nederbord-molnighet/satellit-norden-rgb
http://weather.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/
http://weather.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/GOES13312014071PfN3sz.jpg
http://www.sat24.com/

[Edited 2014-03-12 06:45:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-12 06:47:22 and read 96294 times.

Has Thailand reported on SAR activities / reports in the Malaysia/Thailand border region? If the aircraft did cross the peninsula then it could have (albeit strangely) diverted north once again if it had control issues.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-12 06:49:42 and read 96243 times.

What is the likelihood of 3 possible scenarios in this agonizing saga?
1) the airplane suffers a catastrophic system failure while near its last ADS-B recorded position
- airplane spirals down, down angle increases, CG moves further forward due to load shift
- speed increases leading to aerodynamic break up (engines away, wings off, ...) but the fuselage remains mostly intact
- pieces fall into the sea: engines sink immediately, wings (? can they sink within 4 hours i.e. before daybreak, how long will they float with their amount of fuel?)
- let us assume that the fuselage hits the water at high speed almost vertically in an area were the depth (60m+/-15m) is about the same as the length of the aircraft(64m). What happens? Fuselage explodes on contact? Reaches the silt at the bottom and crumples on itself/ I don't know if there is any way to avoid a significant debris field.

2) terrorists take over
- only seems plausible if they have found a new method to penetrate the cockpit without giving any warning whatsoever to the cockpit crew
- they know enough to flip off all the necessary circuit breakers
- they want to keep that method hidden to apply it again, maybe on a larger scale and in simultaneity
- they now drop altitude and fly away from land to prevent any passenger from placing a cell call
- they fly away silently looking for a greater depth to ditch the airplane

3) a rogue FO, for instance
- the captain notices some event affecting the professional competence of the FO
- discussion, captain says that he has to report the fault, FO, pleads but to no avail, FO gets mad because he is sure that will end his career and hits the captain but without killing him. Captain is unconscious with duct tape on his mouth (is any duct tape usually onboard?) .
- FO is now on a one-way street, there is no turning back
- Circuit breakers off for ADS-B, ACARS, ... but not VHF. Drop altitude, As before fly away from land to silence any cell phones.
- Call comes in at 13:40 from another aircraft ahead as requested by Vietnamese ATC. Lots of static because aircraft are father apart than they should be according to Flight Plan and at the limit of visibility (400kms?) due to the lower altitude of MH370. FO answers, Muffled mumbling from captain in the background
- FO needs a plan. Ditch the aircraft where he has a (small) chance to survive (?) while leaving 0 chance to the captain. Deep water to sink evidence...

Of course, as they say in the movie disclaimer "Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 06:53:58 and read 95429 times.

From the previous thread:

Quoting giopan1975 (Reply 101):

OK then it is all about money and who cares about locating 200+ missed people (dead or alive) in the first seconds of communication loss?

What kind of system do you want?
Streaming blackboxes through satcom? I asked a question that the advocators of this has so far been unable to answer: "What happens when the airplane's upside down?"

Scrap that idea... that'll just cost too much. Does that mean we stop there? of course not!
There are other ways to provide location position... and some ways are better for emergencies than others. My work covers this... and you have no idea how hard it is to convince the airlines.

Satcoms will always have a problem of what happens when the satellite is shadowed by the aircraft in certain attitudes. So throw out streaming... but some systems are capable of blind transmission through multiple antenas or select antennas depending on the attitude.

Then you go across power and position source issues. If we look at MH370, who knows whether any nav systems were still working or not. So this system, may have to get info from somewhere else, where? GPS? Again, what happens when you're upside down? GPSIRS combo? That may cost some more...

Then which of the electric systems do you want to power this system? The AC buses, or the DC buses, or the Essential DC buses? Again, the reasons all have to be justified and quantified in terms of cost vs benefit.

And then even after you go through all that, the airline may just say, "Nah, I don't like it" and walk out of the meeting. (Has happened!)

It is possible, but the industry needs to come up with recommended standards on how this is going to be done.

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 249):

Few years ago I did follow the development of search operations when Adam Air flight was missing in Indonesia. The authorities did also lacked experience on conducting the operation, rumours were also spread around. But if I recalled correctly the amount of information they released throughout the search, despite little, were somehow being handled better and more consistently (e.g. not being retracted or altered time to time) than what we seen today with MH370. Any thoughts??

You have got to be kidding me! It was a total disaster with many in the "authorities" not adhering to the SAR single gateway... etc...
1. The people reportedly survived in a mountain area... That got everyone in a frenzy... turned out to be false.
2. Fisherman seeing a plane crash landing near Palu... turned out to be false.
3. Witnesses reporting airplane in central part of Sulawesi... turned out to be false.
Etc etc.
Back then, SAR assets were diverted because of these "reports". Politicians or local authorities overrode the SAR command (they wanna be heros)... etc.
There was nothing to say, alter or retract, because they never said anything, and when the pieces were found, those who were in the wrong prior to pieces turning up, even tried to sabotage, etc, etc.

When you have the head of the DGCA leading the press conference, holding a piece of paper and saying it shows the aircraft involved had no defects so there was no maintenance or safety issues... well, it doesn't need to be altered... It was too much of a damage, and too much of a lie that no one believed him (not surprised he was replaced not long after).

Please don't tell me the handling of KI574 is better than MH370...

---
Present Part:

Quoting giopan1975 (Reply 3):
The farthest they drifted off course without mayday, the less possible the initial event was devastating (as in explosion). But they couldnt have gone so far (more than 5 minutes into emergency) without notifying of an emergency. Then again no sign of debris close to point where communication was lost.

The more days without debris findings, the less possible the initial event was devastating.

There are several scenarios that can make them go so far without notifying of an emergency, and some can go as far as explaining why no other communications were made.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 5):
Has anyone plugged those GPS co-ords into Google earth ? Where does it take us?

It takes us 320NM away from IGARI and about 50NM south of an airway they could have used for the route.
Under Lost Comms, you do go along as best as you can to your flight plan or land where and when you think it's safe... if that's the case this time, they didn't make it as far as they wanted.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 4):
It strikes me as the most credible report about this disappearance from any source.

It is a "minimum course change" possibility that would not attract any air defence attention as the aircraft would remain outside sovereign waters of Vietnam.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 14):
I want to know why Mandala doesn't buy them flying back over Malaysia.

Because if you turn back and made it over Malaysia, primary radars should have caught them... Kuantan, Gong Kedak, and another one at the border are 3 along the east coast that should have picked them up (unless RMAF has decided to shut down a few or move them elsewhere)... Kuantan and Gong Kedak are also RMAF's "fightertown" as far as I remember.
Then that area between IGARI and the coast, have some sea traffic, and also oil rigs.
And Flying low at night nap of the earth on a 777 to not be detected by radar = almost zero chance of succeeding.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 14):
with regards to the eyewitness report from the oil rig, I'd be amazed if you could spot a fire going out at 70km away. Even if the fire going out was point of impact, Jet A is volatile enough to keep burning. And there would be massive amounts of smoke, debris and other flights would have seen this in such clear skies.

I'm discounting the distance of where he think the fireball is, but just his observation location is "sensible enough" to comprehend on the possibility. Whether it turns out to be true or not, we simply don't know yet, but this certainly makes more sense than the Straits of Malacca arguments.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 14):
would certainly fit in with Mandala's main preoccupation with the FO... If something went wrong, they could have gone miles off course... To an area where there is less radar coverage.... Borneo maybe? Speculation again.... I fear you're right. We know nothing.

I have been requested to not reveal anything more at this stage unless can be disclosed in a respectful manner (request by the informant).
One possibility we haven't looked at is... a repeat of the Egyptair cockpit fire... It could disable the comms, displays, etc... while the aircraft may remain flying (as the avionics bay where the control computers are, are untouched).. with no time to call for mayday, it's straight to firefighting mode... if this is followed by a puncture a la the Egyptair... the crew and comms are history immediately. This does not explain the loss of transponders, unless more severe than I imagine... but going another 300NM is stretching it too! So am baffled myself whether this is even remotely possible.

Back to the FO... the stuff regarding his behaviour, can only a problem when in conjunction with other issues, so this is just a "ringing bell" and by no means anywhere in solving anything. Let's just say in MH, in particular the 777 fleet, the FOs can 'call some of the shots'... But explaining this at the moment serves no purpose. Am just saying it to allay arguments saying that "it's Asia, therefore (automatically and by default) the cockpit culture is steep in seniority"...

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
Why did ATC lose the flight's transponder ?
At IGARI, both K L and HCM were in radar coverage of the airway... yet both couldn't have a response from MH370's squawk.
There are not so many possibile occurrencies that answer these questions in a logical manner :
- One is a takeover from one of the flight deck crew members...
- Another is a fire in the electronic bay (s) of the airplane

The other thing is oxygen bottle fire in the electronics bay, but then, has that happened before?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2014-03-12 06:56:21 and read 94568 times.

When they might of crossed back over flying westbound were the caught on primary radar or the military radar. AFAIK Military radar does not give altitude. If it was the main primary radar that would make more scenes. I seem to be hearing both but not sure which one is true.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: gobeyond
Posted 2014-03-12 06:58:03 and read 94601 times.

Hi, Longtime lurker...

What if: Both GPS units were disables. (1/2 and 3). Plane was on autopilot at FL350. No emergency was perceived. The plane followed a wrong path and veered off course. By the time the crew noticed (I don't know why they would not pay attention) the 3rd one failed completely. They were going down with not visual clues no speed no FL. The plane could be anywhere. Would explain the absence of mayday of phone calls....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-12 07:00:51 and read 93839 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 74):

Moreover, from what I have read it was an HF OTH military radar. It has long range, but it uses signals that bounce of the ionosphere. It is inherently inaccurate.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: windshear
Posted 2014-03-12 07:02:13 and read 93778 times.

Quoting PhilV (Reply 45):
I came across this on a 777.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...2_2007__boeing_777_222__n786ua.cfm

This event happening during cruise would be..... alt least not that good.

"After engines start, about the time the engine driven Integrated Drive Generators (IDGs) would normally come on-line"

This happened at ground idle engine thrust right after engine start on the ground...

Boaz.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: md80fanatic
Posted 2014-03-12 07:05:00 and read 93339 times.

Perhaps what we all understand today to be science fiction has become science fact without the general public being told? It's 2014 and there is more going on in the military sciences than what any of us could possibly imagine. We only know a very small fraction of what is possible in reality today, that's a fact. As long as we use equipment and methods designed to sense what we currently know to be true, we can easily miss clues.

My gut tells me these airmen may have perceived their craft to be under some form of bizarre attack they could not put their heads around. First thing I would do in such a situation would be to immediately run silent. Cut all communications and transmissions of any kind, lights off, and make a descending turn away from my pre-planned flight path back towards home at flight idle if possible. I would be trying my best to NOT be found until a time when I could light everything back up and configure for landing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 07:09:45 and read 92512 times.

Quoting gobeyond (Reply 75):
Both GPS units were disables. (1/2 and 3). Plane was on autopilot at FL350.

They would notice and the integrity monitor would show a degrading ANP... They could also fly on IRS only and not GPS in such a situation (fly in star wars/darth vader mode as it is mocked)... In fact, interestingly, this occured to my friend in MH going from PEK to KUL... now if that happened on 9M-MRO back then, I'm gonna freak out... 

(And Boeing to this day has no answer to the anomaly)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 07:10:21 and read 92070 times.

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 78):
We only know a very small fraction of what is possible in reality today, that's a fact.

How can we know it's a fact if we know that we don't know?   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: breiz
Posted 2014-03-12 07:12:36 and read 91686 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 70):
I don't know, but I don't think the weather satellites have the "zoom" needed for that.

You are most probably right.
Thanks for taking the time to find the links.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 07:14:33 and read 91378 times.

Quoting gobeyond (Reply 75):

Hi, Longtime lurker...

What if: Both GPS units were disables. (1/2 and 3). Plane was on autopilot at FL350. No emergency was perceived. The plane followed a wrong path and veered off course. By the time the crew noticed (I don't know why they would not pay attention) the 3rd one failed completely. They were going down with not visual clues no speed no FL. The plane could be anywhere. Would explain the absence of mayday of phone calls....

You don't need GPS to get speed or altitude data. In fact the flight instruments only use GPS speed and wind speed really. The speed data comes from the pitot-static system.

I don't buy them going from cruise to impact. Too many alarms would go off, and once they got close to the ground, GPWS would warn once you approach the ground, plus radio calls, etc...

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 78):

Perhaps what we all understand today to be science fiction has become science fact without the general public being told? It's 2014 and there is more going on in the military sciences than what any of us could possibly imagine. We only know a very small fraction of what is possible in reality today, that's a fact. As long as we use equipment and methods designed to sense what we currently know to be true, we can easily miss clues.

My gut tells me these airmen may have perceived their craft to be under some form of bizarre attack they could not put their heads around. First thing I would do in such a situation would be to immediately run silent. Cut all communications and transmissions of any kind, lights off, and make a descending turn away from my pre-planned flight path back towards home at flight idle if possible. I would be trying my best to NOT be found until a time when I could light everything back up and configure for landing.

A bizarre attack? Possible but seems extremely unlikely. Occam's Razor and all that.

Also I don't think your average airline pilot would react like that. It seems out of character. They're not action heroes in a Hollywood movie. At least the ones I've hung out with. Highly skilled professionals but pretty much all of them have been very chilled out people. Running some sort of military countermeasure maneuvers doesn't seem to be something they would do.

[Edited 2014-03-12 07:15:28]

[Edited 2014-03-12 07:18:46]

[Edited 2014-03-12 07:20:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 07:15:45 and read 91338 times.

Quoting dtfg (Reply 68):
You know, the news is more than likely to serve for propaganda purposes. The Gov wants to convince the public that they are doing whatever they can to find the plane. Actually, AFAIK, many of the satellites they used are not "spy" satellites, rather, they are weather satellites and communication satellites just to provide weather information and support communications.

Glad you said that. China do have several imaging satellites and if they have high-res images from the area they can definitely use those. But terms like "deploying" or "redeploying" are definitely for public consumption. They may reconfigure equipment to get better images of ocean surface. No country wants to move their satellites even by a few degrees and loose several years of life for a single event.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 07:15:54 and read 91535 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 52):
all the seemingly contradictory stuff has come from the press

I don't think so. See this from the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...nded-into-andaman-sea-live-updates
(posted above as well)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2014-03-12 07:21:06 and read 90392 times.

Quoting gobeyond (Reply 75):
What if: Both GPS units were disables. (1/2 and 3). Plane was on autopilot at FL350. No emergency was perceived. The plane followed a wrong path and veered off course. By the time the crew noticed (I don't know why they would not pay attention) the 3rd one failed completely. They were going down with not visual clues no speed no FL. The plane could be anywhere. Would explain the absence of mayday of phone calls....

The 777 or any modern aircraft doesn't need GPS to navigate. If the GPS was disabled, the Inertial Reference Systems (IRS) would continue to navigate with a very high degree of accuracy. My own company's 767-200ERs fly across the Atlantic everyday and they don't even have GPS installed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: branoco
Posted 2014-03-12 07:25:05 and read 89675 times.

Hello there,
I am not actually new on A.net, just wasn’t posting around, did read a lot of comments from this 16 threads about MH370 flight.
I have something what I want to share with you.
As I did know there are many theories what actually happened with the plane (some quiet strange, but anyway...)
There was many ppl asking, once the PIC or FO may hijack the plane, so why the people on board were not trying to „open/brake into“ the cockpit doors and take some actions, as also why don’t they send any message or call to their family/friend/police , what’s going on ?
As we still don’t know what’s happened to the plane (just that there are some indications).
What if the PIC/FO just did what happened on Helios 522 flight by mistake, so he somehow defused the other pilot, after takeoff, and then just don’t pressurized the cockpit ? (Yes another conspiracy theory)
I don’t know for how long the oxygen can be supplied from the passenger oxygen masks, so maybe I am wrong, but think the masks on PIC/FO seats can last longer and can be turn on/off individually (?).
So once during the climb everything for ground control looks good, the passengers on board were already „sleeping“ so well they will don’t take any action, whatever will happened with the plane.
I still pray that those all on board are somewhere in safe & OK, but this is something what I was looking to share with you.
I did saw almost all ACI series, so think the conclusion will be around someone theory over here (maybe now looks strange), but it will take some time, till will be discovered.

Brano

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-12 07:27:00 and read 89363 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 73):

thank you for your reply.

that makes a little bit more sense now with regards to the unlikely situation with regards to a 777 performing a covert flight and not being seen.

With regards to the Egyptair fire- I'm assuming that they made some modifications to the oxygen supply lines, no?

In any case- http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44078aa7&opt=0

some of the pictures and analysis make for sobering reading. But as you say (and starlionblue back in thread 9 or 10), this doesn't explain a lack of distress call unless the comms were burnt out and then a puncture would surely down the plane? 300nm is way too far with a fire.

what are the fire suppression systems available?

Still, very interesting about the FO. one thing i would say about him is that surely being the son of a bigwig in government would make them want to find them even more quickly... i really don't think anything at all is being covered up.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2014-03-12 07:28:44 and read 89169 times.

I didn't want to say this at first.

But these Malaysians are fools, absolute fools! They are sending out mixed signals and confusion and frustration.

Vietnam has scaled back their search, for good reason. Why should they waste money on SAR operations when the Malaysian Government has lied, obfuscated, and allowed expensive and risky searches to go on 500 miles in an opposite direction.

Quoting breiz (Reply 61):
- Can't weather satellites past pictures be used to try and see the plane when she was still flying?

Well, one reason would be that a reconnaissance satellite has a much higher resolution and targeting capacity than a weather satellite.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-12 07:29:34 and read 89012 times.

Many people here with theories where this or that instrument fails "and the crew didn't notice", "they weren't paying attention"... modern jets are not equiped with the old couple of gauges with a scale and a pointer only. This is 777 not a Ford Trimotor... 777s have sophisticated glass cockpits with aural and visual alerts in the screens, for a a very vast number of malfunctions or instrument disagreement, and the image of the crew playing cards or reading a magazine while the aircraft does "unnoticed changes" is just non sense, sorry. The only scenario to something like that happening could be hipoxia, but that was discussed to death in the previous threads and was dismissed. IMHO one of three things happened : The crew was not able to react against a very rapid and catastrophic event / OR was victim of a criminal, terrorist action of a group storming the cockpit / OR one of the flight crew members has "the intention" of vanishing the aircraft. I can't imagine a normal, professional pilot and/or F/O ignoring all kinds of warnings, alarms and screens displaying instrument failures like some people are suggesting here.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 07:34:13 and read 88038 times.

Quoting branoco (Reply 86):
What if the PIC/FO just did what happened on Helios 522 flight by mistake, so he somehow defused the other pilot, after takeoff, and then just don’t pressurized the cockpit ? (Yes another conspiracy theory)

Pressurization is the same in the entire pressure vessel. You can't separate the cockpit. Anyway there'd be alarms if the cabin altitude climbed to dangerous levels.

Quoting branoco (Reply 86):
I don’t know for how long the oxygen can be supplied from the passenger oxygen masks, so maybe I am wrong, but think the masks on PIC/FO seats can last longer and can be turn on/off individually (?).

I think it's 15 minutes for pax masks. Cockpit supply is independent and lasts longer. Masks are also different. Quick don and can work in various modes depending on altitude.

Quoting branoco (Reply 86):
So once during the climb everything for ground control looks good, the passengers on board were already „sleeping“ so well they will don’t take any action, whatever will happened with the plane

Alarms would go off in the cockpit, but very much in theory you could don masks in the cockpit and not pressurize so the pax and cabin crew would lose consciousness.

I will add that this sounds like a bad action movie.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: anatolialevant
Posted 2014-03-12 07:34:23 and read 87984 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 89):
Many people here with theories where this or that instrument fails "and the crew didn't notice", "they weren't paying attention"... modern jets are not equiped with the old couple of gauges with a scale and a pointer only. This is 777 not a Ford Trimotor... 777s have sophisticated glass cockpits with aural and visual alerts in the screens, for a a very vast number of malfunctions or instrument disagreement, and the image of the crew playing cards or reading a magazine while the aircraft does "unnoticed changes" is just non sense, sorry. The only scenario to something like that happening could be hipoxia, but that was discussed to death in the previous threads and was dismissed. IMHO one of three things happened : The crew was not able to react against a very rapid and catastrophic event / OR was victim of a criminal, terrorist action of a group storming the cockpit / OR one of the flight crew members has "the intention" of vanishing the aircraft. I can't imagine a normal, professional pilot and/or F/O ignoring all kinds of warnings, alarms and screens displaying instrument failures like some people are suggesting here.

Rgds.
G.

How about actually over occupied with those warning, alarms, and screens? Or focusing too much on few warnings or alarms? (something like AF 447 or TS 236) I put that as my speculation on reply #64

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Pygmalion
Posted 2014-03-12 07:36:54 and read 87741 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 72):
2) terrorists take over
- only seems plausible if they have found a new method to penetrate the cockpit without giving any warning whatsoever to the cockpit crew
- they know enough to flip off all the necessary circuit breakers
- they want to keep that method hidden to apply it again, maybe on a larger scale and in simultaneity
- they now drop altitude and fly away from land to prevent any passenger from placing a cell call
- they fly away silently looking for a greater depth to ditch the airplane

the cockpit doors will take large caliber pistol rounds without breaching and an axe would still take you a fair number of minutes to breach the door. Not to mention that the surveillance camera is watching and streaming that video to the cockpit. While that is going on.. You really think the pilots wouldn't be making a distress call?? by the way, the circuit breakers for all this are in the cockpit and not accessible to the cabin

The rest of your theories are equally unlikely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-12 07:37:21 and read 87745 times.

Does anyone know if the 777 cockpit oxygen masks have microphone/earphones built-in, and would ATC be able to determine that you are indeed wearing one when you speak? That would help eliminate some of the sinister scenarios. The handoff to Vietnam ATC at this point appeared "normal."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 07:38:37 and read 87384 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 84):

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 52):
all the seemingly contradictory stuff has come from the press

I don't think so. See this from the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...nded-into-andaman-sea-live-updates
(posted above as well)

Well, they're also guessing but won't make it sound like that on their press conferences. By now they have told us that there was some radar data (albeit slower than a usual airliner, and with a fuzzy and unclear signal) crossing the peninsula, before disappearing from radar at 02:40 near Pulau Perak. That's why they started to search in the West from early on. Now they spent some time reassessing all the radar information, which does apparently not allow them to say that this was certainly the 777, and found some other radar signal of unknown provenience, further North, at 02:15. That's why they widened the search area northwards. Seems consistent to me.

"... adds to confusion" is just the Guardians take on it.

Quote:
The Malaysian authorities leading the investigation into the missing plane have added to the confusion about its last known whereabouts. At a hostile press conference military officials said the last possible recording of flight MH370 was at 2.15am on Saturday morning 200 miles north west of Penang. The authorities had initially said air traffic control lost contact at 1.20am on the east side of the peninsula. On Tuesday the head of the armed forces was reported as saying it was picked up by military radar at 2.40am - a statement he has since denied making.

He denied a press report which had him confirming that this was the flight (at 02:40, that is). Lazy Guardian relies on a (translated?) news report that went through the internet, but does not want to take note of the official statement clarifying his alleged "quote".

It is depressing....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-12 07:39:47 and read 87418 times.

Quoting anatolialevant (Reply 91):
How about actually over occupied with those warning, alarms, and screens? Or focusing too much on few warnings or alarms? (something like AF 447 or TS 236) I put that as my speculation on reply #64

The problem with that scenario is ( as AF447 demonstrated ), we should have a good number of ACARS messages telling at least a good part of the failures and alerts.... we don't have anything.

Rgds.
G.-

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-12 07:40:35 and read 87340 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 84):

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 52):
all the seemingly contradictory stuff has come from the press

I don't think so. See this from the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...nded-into-andaman-sea-live-updates
(posted above as well)

The Guardian report confirms what I said:

Quote:

The Malaysian authorities leading the investigation into the missing plane have added to the confusion about its last known whereabouts. At a hostile press conference military officials said the last possible recording of flight MH370 was at 2.15am on Saturday morning 200 miles north west of Penang. The authorities had initially said air traffic control lost contact at 1.20am on the east side of the peninsula. On Tuesday the head of the armed forces was reported as saying it was picked up by military radar at 2.40am - a statement he has since denied making.



Edit - JimJupiter beat me to it with a better explanation


[Edited 2014-03-12 07:44:12]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-12 07:41:29 and read 87181 times.

In the very unlikely event the aircraft has somehow managed to land somewhere, how long would it theoretically be possible to survive? I suppose they have water/food on board that only lasts for a very limited amount of time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: klmtom
Posted 2014-03-12 07:42:38 and read 87122 times.

Has anyone questioned the amount of hours that the Captain and Co-pilot had done prior to the flight?

Maybe fatigue to the pilots played a major role in events and proceedings?

cheers

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-12 07:42:40 and read 87263 times.

I think the scariest scenario is they just find nil after months of looking. At some point between now and the end of March further searching could become cost prohibitive and begin to decrease. With the third world how long can you afford to spend millions and millions looking?

At that point the industry could upgrade Ident for over water aircraft to ensure 24/7/365 inflight tracking.
But that could take years to implement across the globe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 07:43:38 and read 87144 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 88):
Vietnam has scaled back their search, for good reason.

Or maybe not....

Quote:
Vietnam resumed full scale air and sea searches for the missing Malaysia Airlines plane on Wednesday, after announcing in the morning that it was scaling back pending information from Malaysia about a new direction of the multi-nation hunt.

It could even ramp up the search on Thursday, Vietnamese navy deputy commander Le Minh Thanh said on Wednesday evening.

The flip flop was a result of reports that the plane was detected by Malaysian military radar over the Strait of Malacca, away from South China Sea waters off southern Vietnam being scoured by its ships and helicopters.
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...a-airlines-plane-after-temporary-s

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-12 07:45:03 and read 86414 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 93):
Does anyone know if the 777 cockpit oxygen masks have microphone/earphones built-in, and would ATC be able to determine that you are indeed wearing one when you speak?

AFAIK all the modern airliners have the feature of oxygen masks with communication devices. And in the case of the crew talking with any ATC while wearing oxygen masks, I'm sure the FIRST sentence of that crew to ATC will be "We are declaring Emergency!"

Rgds.
G:

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-12 07:46:57 and read 86302 times.

Quoting rebr (Reply 97):
how long would it theoretically be possible to survive?

It depends on where the have landed, what condition the survivors are in, are there
any freshwater available? Any larger quantities of fruit/berries?

I think a healthy person can survive 2-3 days without water. Maybe 1 week or so without food.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: anatolialevant
Posted 2014-03-12 07:48:01 and read 86214 times.

Quoting klmtom (Reply 98):
Has anyone questioned the amount of hours that the Captain and Co-pilot had done prior to the flight?

Maybe fatigue to the pilots played a major role in events and proceedings?

cheers

Can see that as well as a cause, I think, especially since this is a midnight flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 07:49:14 and read 86136 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 88):
Vietnam has scaled back their search, for good reason. Why should they waste money on SAR operations when the Malaysian Government has lied, obfuscated, and allowed expensive and risky searches to go on 500 miles in an opposite direction.

Blame the media for that. The Malaysian government never confirmed the straits of Malacca. However, the media kerfuffle made Vietnam think exactly what you said. And since today the Malaysian have reiterated that the search in the strait of Malacca is based on possibility based on the radar readings, and that nothing has been confirmed yet, and that the main area for search is still in between Malaysia and Vietnam, as of this evening Vietnam has restored the search to previous levels and even offered to upscale.

The media screwed up in understanding what the Malaysian authorities were saying... to the detriment of the search due to search partner confusion.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 87):
some of the pictures and analysis make for sobering reading. But as you say (and starlionblue back in thread 9 or 10), this doesn't explain a lack of distress call unless the comms were burnt out and then a puncture would surely down the plane? 300nm is way too far with a fire.

This is in my view one of the very few ways a fire can occur with no mayday call. The Egyptair case the fire escalated so fast that the fire engines were notified by the FO running to look for anyone with a radio in the apron while the captain went to fight the fire. Regardless of whether modifications were made to the oxygen lines, this is one of the few possible scenarios of "fire with no mayday"... but am sure it's not the only one... I just haven't thought of others... and even if you fixed it, this can still happen albeit the chances are so much more reduced.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: branoco
Posted 2014-03-12 07:50:02 and read 85902 times.

I hope I did the "quotes" well and it will work

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
Pressurization is the same in the entire pressure vessel. You can't separate the cockpit. Anyway there'd be alarms if the cabin altitude climbed to dangerous levels.

Yes , I do know this, but once the PIC/FO did know, they are "out of air" he just wear the mask, as he know the pax will be out of consciousness soon.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
I think it's 15 minutes for pax masks. Cockpit supply is independent and lasts longer. Masks are also different. Quick don and can work in various modes depending on altitude.

ok thx

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
Alarms would go off in the cockpit, but very much in theory you could don masks in the cockpit and not pressurize so the pax and cabin crew would lose consciousness.

that was all what I was looking for

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 90):
I will add that this sounds like a bad action movie.

as i said already, this hole think is in my mind when going to bed every day , how can be in year 2014 so big plane "nowhere" so just looking for answers, and this come to my mind, once no one on board from pax (was thinking about this when there were indication they were spotted last time near Pulau Perak – which is already ruled out) take action over the land… I just wanted to share another idea (maybe strange & wrong), thats all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2014-03-12 07:50:45 and read 85957 times.

A cracking and corrosion problem on Boeing 777s that could lead to the mid-air break-up of the aircraft prompted a warning from air safety regulators weeks before the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, federal records show.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...rrosion-problem-boeing-777s-n50591

Coincidence or not?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-12 07:51:43 and read 85661 times.

Quoting rebr (Reply 97):
In the very unlikely event the aircraft has somehow managed to land somewhere, how long would it theoretically be possible to survive? I suppose they have water/food on board that only lasts for a very limited amount of time.

Depends from where they landed. If it was some tiny island in middle of nothing then probably not too long depending from amount of survivors.

But if they crashed into jungles of Papua New Guinea they could theoretically survive for years... Papua has plenty of difficult terrain & jungle with minimum amount of inhabitants, if you wanted to hide a 777 on any land mass of this planet Papua would probably be the best.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 07:51:57 and read 85777 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 96):
The Guardian report confirms what I said

From the Guardian article:
"It caused Vietnamese deputy minister of transport Pham Quy Tieu to announce on Wednesday morning a temporary suspension of most search activities.

That evening though, Rear Admiral Thanh told reporters that the Vietnamese government still had not received any direct confirmation from Kuala Lumpur, but was resuming its search because of news that Malaysian authorities had denied reports about MH370’s Malacca Strait course."

The various SAR operations apparently are not communicating adequately with one another (and are certainly not communicating well with the press).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-12 07:53:08 and read 85327 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
Coincidence or not?

Coincidence, as an in flight break up would produce an enormous and obvious debris field many square miles across.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: United787
Posted 2014-03-12 07:53:35 and read 85291 times.

Quoting us330 (Reply 31):
From what I understand (like I said, please correct me if I am wrong), when a transponder is turned off, radar systems are only capable of detecting an unidentified/anonymous blip on the screen. Since the blip is anonymous, then how can the Royal Malaysian Air Force be certain that the blip they detected near Pulau Perak was in fact MH370?

I assume (but I don't know for certain), that they followed the blip from the direction of where the transponders stopped working. But do we know the altitude of this blip? I know they said slow and weak...

And, if that blip was the plane they are looking for, what do the Indonesian's say? Did they not see anything across Sumatra? Is anyone searching on Sumatra? Lot of high mountains and jungle?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-12 07:56:43 and read 84870 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
I dunno. At night over the ocean, you can see aircraft lights a long way. A fire would be more visible.

If an airborne fire was observed at a long distance, and the aircraft fell to the sea - the fire could fall below the observable horizon.

Quoting giopan1975 (Reply 28):
Why arent they searching over mainland Malaysia?
Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 32):
I think perhaps with the amount of air traffic going across the peninsula a wreckage would
have been spotted already?

While I'm sure there has been some search over mainland Malaysia.

An aircraft going down in the jungles and relatively steep/ rough terrain of the Malay Peninsula might make it very hard to find wreckage without a very detailed search.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-12 08:00:28 and read 84751 times.

According to Aviationweek.com:

Malaysia Airlines has now confirmed that its missing Boeing 777-200ER operating flight MH370 did not send out a distress call or any Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System Messages (ACARS) before it disappeared. “There were no distress calls and no information was relayed,” the airline said in a statement on Tuesday.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_03_11_2014_p0-671110.xml

Another piece of information lacking clarity. Do they mean the ACARS system sent no data during the entire flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: dirktraveller
Posted 2014-03-12 08:01:28 and read 84072 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 73):

You have got to be kidding me! It was a total disaster with many in the "authorities" not adhering to the SAR single gateway... etc...

Hi mandala! Thanks again in putting more information to my post. Well I was referring to the way media and information being handled, not exactly about the search operations.

I was not sure how SAR operations in KI574 was particularly handled compared to today's MH370, but thanks very much for the details.

Somehow back when I followed through internet and some media reports about Adam Air, there wasn't as much rumours and false/misleading statements thrown around. I heard about the first rumour about the mountain crash though.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 73):
There was nothing to say, alter or retract, because they never said anything

I see, no wonder there's not much statements being retracted or altered, as nothing have been told by DGCA. So I guess Malaysia have done their work to be transparent here it seems..

But again probably it's that media coverage outside Indonesia on that crash back then weren't as big as today's MH370, so that wild rumours that might have been spreading around Indonesia were not picked up as fast in overseas media, hence having me believeing that media handling of today's MH370 was worse. Kindly appreciated your clarifications.

Quoting passenger8170 (Reply 67):
I haven't read anywhere of him having any family? Divorced? Children? Being a single man might make it easier for him to decide to take his own life.

Welcome to a-net! On one of the social media it was told the captain had a daughter, although I was not very sure on this one. Sorry to disagree with you on this one, if the pilot was single he would probably choose another method of suicide (one that does not result in many other unnecessary deaths).

Those who probably would have done a pilot suicide is actually someone with loved ones to leave behind. Making it look like an accident means that he/she would leave a large amount of insurance benefit to the family, and at least saved his family's face from shame that can be caused from an apparent suicide act.

Quoting passenger8170 (Reply 67):
Once again, I'd like to hear more about the people onboard. Also, does anybody know how long it would take to at least do a minimal in-depth check of the passengers and their backgrounds?

Well in a press conference few days ago, the police commissioner did say that they were checking backgrounds on every name on the manifest, not sure how long that would take though. As for the computers some users have actually talked about it few threads ago, and there's no words if the authorities have looked at both pilots computer (or considering to look at them).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 08:02:42 and read 84187 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
A cracking and corrosion problem on Boeing 777s that could lead to the mid-air break-up of the aircraft prompted a warning from air safety regulators weeks before the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, federal records show.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...rrosion-problem-boeing-777s-n50591

Coincidence or not?

I may have said it before but...
This warning does not apply to 9M-MRO. The warning applies to 777s equipped with Inmarsat High Gain Antenna (and of a certain type of HGA antenna, I think the ones made by CMC or IMS). 9M-MRO DOES NOT have an Inmarsat HGA installed. (It seems to have the Low Gain Antenna, but that's not covered in the warning).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-12 08:03:27 and read 84037 times.

Quoting art (Reply 112):
Do they mean the ACARS system sent no data during the entire flight?

Normally the ACARS would not report anything if nothing was going wrong. Nothing being reported would tend to support the idea that whatever happened happened quickly.

-Mir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-12 08:04:59 and read 83596 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 99):
I think the scariest scenario is they just find nil after months of looking. At some point between now and the end of March further searching could become cost prohibitive and begin to decrease. With the third world how long can you afford to spend millions and millions looking?

If I were in charge of searching for Vietnam or any of the other countries in the area, I think I would stop searching long before "months" have been invested, especially because Malaysia seems to be unable to give any kind of accurate idea of the situation. I'm not even sure that (were I the responsible person in Vietnam) I would have ramped back up today. There is not even a reliable "last known" position - with all of the problems they have had so far with presenting and interpreting data, I don't think ANY position claimed after loss of transponder data can be trusted. It seems just as likely that they could be correct or they could be wrong.

They really need to open up their data to someone else with experience in these issues, and let someone else interpret and report on the data. I get the pride and desire to "do it yourself", but they are doing their image, the families of the passengers, and the entire world a great disservice at this point. And depending on how they are collecting or reviewing the data, they could actually be damaging or destroying pertinent information that a more experienced entity could have extracted.

It's past time to ask for help.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-12 08:07:01 and read 82995 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 109):
Coincidence, as an in flight break up would produce an enormous and obvious debris field many square miles across.

With such a small amount of information, at this stage I am inclined to believe the eye witness report from the New Zealand man on the oil rig.

He said that the plane appeared to be flaming but still intact, which likely means it crashed into the sea in tact, hence the lack of debris yet (it may be over a small area). Hopefully the Vietnamese will start searching the area in question.

However, in these situations it is best to identify a search area and then allocate resources to scour this area... so you have more chance of finding it. If you expand the area with fewer resources per square 100km then you won't have the same coverage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:07:05 and read 82902 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 76):

Moreover, from what I have read it was an HF OTH military radar. It has long range, but it uses signals that bounce of the ionosphere. It is inherently inaccurate

Resolution of OTH doesn't matter, even if they can get a return with a 50km resolution that would find them quickly. It is far better than that, though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-12 08:08:28 and read 82568 times.

Regarding possible scenarios

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 92):
the cockpit doors will take large caliber pistol rounds without breaching and an axe would still take you a fair number of minutes to breach the door. Not to mention that the surveillance camera is watching and streaming that video to the cockpit. While that is going on.. You really think the pilots wouldn't be making a distress call?? by the way, the circuit breakers for all this are in the cockpit and not accessible to the cabin

I know all that, thank you.
Did I say they broke the door ot gunned it down?
Does MH use keys or combination locks?
Is there a law of physics against getting hold of a copy of a key or hacking into the combination repository somewhere?

I did not say that I necessarily believed the scenarios I summarized earlier. Actually, I hope neither is correct because they are all very scary. The scariest is having airplanes we love and trust disappear without a trace. No clue, no evidence, no claim, no suspect. That might be the ultimate terror weapon facing commercial aviation..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-12 08:09:05 and read 82559 times.

I don't see what else they could do search&rescuewise. Almost 40 planes and 40 ships looking areas obviously outside primary radar coverage. The weather is also cooperating very nicely, being hot sunny tropical season.

The search process would be the same if it happened in US east coast or France west coast. USA messed up big time the Katrina response and even somewhat the Haiti earthquake response so I don't see how they would do this any better in foreign waters they know much less about than locals.

Bad press conferences usually happen during these kinds of accidents because the guys in charge are from army and coast guard, not some PR puppets smiling like it is a Fox News morning show.

It does not mean the S&R operation itself is in disarray. They simply are looking for a needle in haystack, guessing possible crash sites without any meaningful information about the flight path after the disappearing from secondary radars.

[Edited 2014-03-12 08:13:51]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-12 08:12:30 and read 82219 times.

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-co...en-find-life-raft-near-pd-1.509222

Could this be any related?

"PORT DICKSON: A group of fishermen found a life raft bearing the word “Boarding” 10 nautical miles from Port Dickson town at 12pm yesterday."

I have no idea what reads on a life raft of a 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 08:12:53 and read 82431 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 110):
I assume (but I don't know for certain), that they followed the blip from the direction of where the transponders stopped working. But do we know the altitude of this blip? I know they said slow and weak...

The "last suspected blip" was at FL295 at 200NM NW of PEN... but they could not confirm this was MH370, and neither could they confirm if any unidentified blips made it across the peninsula that night and that they were of MH370.
This was made clear today in the press conference and that previous statements were merely saying what they were looking at... they were trying to be transparent, and got eaten/mauled over by the media.

Quoting United787 (Reply 110):
And, if that blip was the plane they are looking for, what do the Indonesian's say? Did they not see anything across Sumatra? Is anyone searching on Sumatra? Lot of high mountains and jungle?

We didn't see anything... Our short range SAR assets are searching the strait... the longer ranged SAR assets are in South China Sea / Gulf of Thailand.

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 113):
Well I was referring to the way media and information being handled, not exactly about the search operations.

Well, unfortunately this time round, they were trying to be transparent, but got eaten up...  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 08:12:57 and read 81994 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 115):
Nothing being reported would tend to support the idea that whatever happened happened quickly.

Instantaneously it sounds like.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Owleye
Posted 2014-03-12 08:14:28 and read 81524 times.

Does the Malaysian Air Force operate with drones?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:14:38 and read 81689 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 102):

I think a healthy person can survive 2-3 days without water. Maybe 1 week or so without food.

3-5 days without water. 3-8 weeks without food, depending.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: cougar15
Posted 2014-03-12 08:16:20 and read 81288 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 93):
Does anyone know if the 777 cockpit oxygen masks have microphone/earphones built-in, and would ATC be able to determine that you are indeed wearing one when you speak? That would help eliminate some of the sinister scenarios. The handoff to Vietnam ATC at this point appeared "normal."

yes, it is one pullout (complete) unit with ´all goddies attached´ that it on either side of the cockpit and jumpseats,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 08:16:54 and read 81504 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 52):
What info are they supposed to be hiding? Do you think they know where the aircraft came down but are keeping it a secret?

I don't have any reason to suspect they're hiding anything

Well stated.

Quoting na (Reply 63):
before I was checking it I thought it was more.
Quoting na (Reply 63):
Not that vast not to be able to find something in a few days time I would say,

Really? That is a huge area to find a small object. Also - most of this is water - so most of the object would sink.
While I find it perplexing that we have not found anything - it is not as simple as some may think.

Quoting captainx (Reply 93):
Does anyone know if the 777 cockpit oxygen masks have microphone/earphones built-in
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 101):
I'm sure the FIRST sentence of that crew to ATC will be "We are declaring Emergency!"

I don't know if the 777 oxygen mask has built in microphones, but I suspect it does - and you can often tell the difference in the sound when the speaker is wearing a mask regardless. However, that is not an unusual occurrence. I'm not sure if it is required, (perhaps somebody can comment), but I know that in many cases if one pilot leaves the flight deck - the other puts on a mask as a matter of course. So - you hear it pretty often and it is not a warning flag. I've heard it on united flights I've been on (listening to channel 9) when I've observed one of the pilots out of the cockpit for a potty break.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 08:18:39 and read 81128 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 121):
Could this be any related?

Has been discussed somewhere above - it's unrelated to the 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hnl2bos
Posted 2014-03-12 08:18:54 and read 81052 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 104):


I'll have to say I highy doubt the Vietnamese SAR effort would soley rely on media reports and not info directly from the Malaysian SAR efforts/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-12 08:19:09 and read 81106 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 115):
Normally the ACARS would not report anything if nothing was going wrong. Nothing being reported would tend to support the idea that whatever happened happened quickly.

Thanks for that. As I see it, an absence of ACARS data being transmitted is not abnormal. Just inconvenient if one is trying to establish a last known time during the flight at which the ACARS system was functioning.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 08:22:32 and read 80347 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 115):
Nothing being reported would tend to support the idea that whatever happened happened quickly.

Could it also indicate that nothing happened (that ACARS thought was worth reporting)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-12 08:22:45 and read 80445 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 117):
With such a small amount of information, at this stage I am inclined to believe the eye witness report from the New Zealand man on the oil rig.

Do we know if the authorities involved are heeding this man's account and scouring the area he states the plane went down?

Or are they ignoring it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SQ452
Posted 2014-03-12 08:23:28 and read 80494 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 7):
This event may bring out huge revelations of corruption and incompetence of both the military and government triggering major changes in key appointed and elected positions.
Quoting PiedFly (Reply 19):
Given the 'inexperienced' nature of the panel facing questions, some well thought out and constructed questions could've gleaned extra info. Of course, perhaps the right reporters were not indicated to ask as they already have reputations for pertinent questions.
Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 15):
After following this event on major media outlets (BBC, CBC, CNN) since its inception, and reading hundreds upon hundreds of posts in this forum, I am forced to one of the following conclusions:

1) The Malaysian authorities are deliberately hiding something very bad; something that would be horridly shocking to the rest of the world; or
2) The Malaysian authorities are kindergarten-level inept.

I personally lean toward the latter.

You know after watching the press conference earlier today and seeing the heat they are taking for what seems to be a blazingly disorganized and chaotic search effort, I'm beginning to think a squadron full of Civil Air Patrol cadets and members from the U.S. with ELT and SAR training may be just as capable -if not more so- for the land search than whoever may be searching now from some of these countries militaries. Civil Air Patrol finds downed planes in the US all the time; they probably have more experience than some of these militaries in finding downed aircraft (and no, I am not trying to be funny here, I am being serious).

If the ELT is busted in the aircraft then this is of course a mute point, but it got me thinking.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2014-03-12 08:23:59 and read 80359 times.

Typically the media dont care what they do or who they hurt/manipulate as long as they can milk the story as long as possible. They should do the honorable thing and let the families grieve and the searchers search without interruptions and ridiculous press feeding frenzies where they deliberately try and trip up the various media liasons to try and flame the conspiracy theories a bit more in order to report the next 'newsflash'. The truth will come out eventually, maybe not in time for the next season of air crash investigations or when we all have lost interest but these guys are professionals doing a thankless and difficult job who will provide more information when they have anything relevent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: holzmann
Posted 2014-03-12 08:27:52 and read 80058 times.

The Facebook/NZ Oil Rig Email seems like the best lead out there.

What about a "Cast Away" scenario?

Something catastrophic occurred, engine or otherwise, and what if the plane, perhaps successfully (Miracle on Hudson) landed safely in the water but WAY off course? What if the thing (and the crew/pax) are adrift somewhere or marooned on an atol? Could explain the cell phones working briefly perhaps. How long can an intact 777 stay afloat best case scenario?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SKAirbus
Posted 2014-03-12 08:28:39 and read 79494 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 132):
Do we know if the authorities involved are heeding this man's account and scouring the area he states the plane went down?

Or are they ignoring it?

I thought they were sending a ship into the area?

Anyway... it all seems to make sense.. It was pretty much on its flight path and it was sighted not long after it disappeared from radar screens. If the plane did catch fire then that could be a good explanation for why the comms and transponder failed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Aither
Posted 2014-03-12 08:29:26 and read 79476 times.

One thing for sure is that there will be new ATC, Interpol, ... procedures put in place.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-12 08:29:42 and read 79628 times.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 133):
You know after watching the press conference earlier today and seeing the heat they are taking for what seems to be a blazingly disorganized and chaotic search effort, I'm beginning to think a squadron full of Civil Air Patrol cadets and members from the U.S. with ELT and SAR training may be just as capable -if not more so- for the land search than whoever may be searching now from some of these countries militaries

There are almost 2000 million people living around South China Sea, much busier shipping lanes than anywhere around USA So the coast guards there are much busier than in the US. Americans also have less than stellar record with Katrina and Haiti response.

[Edited 2014-03-12 08:31:30]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:30:27 and read 79218 times.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 134):

Typically the media dont care what they do or who they hurt/manipulate as long as they can milk the story as long as possible. They should do the honorable thing and let the families grieve and the searchers search without interruptions and ridiculous press feeding frenzies where they deliberately try and trip up the various media liasons to try and flame the conspiracy theories a bit more in order to report the next 'newsflash'. The truth will come out eventually, maybe not in time for the next season of air crash investigations or when we all have lost interest but these guys are professionals doing a thankless and difficult job who will provide more information when they have anything relevent.

This is depressingly jaded. Most of the media aren't out to hurt or manipulate anyone, they just want answers, same as we do. They're not trying to trip anyone up, they are tripping themselves up - which is why when you have a coordinated effort, you have specific professionals that communicate with the media so that you don't have this report/retraction cycle thing happening.

SAR has a difficult job, but not thankless. Investigators' job is not thankless either. I'm sure both groups get lots of satisfaction from helping out any way they can.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:32:40 and read 79236 times.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 135):
What about a "Cast Away" scenario?

Something catastrophic occurred, engine or otherwise, and what if the plane, perhaps successfully (Miracle on Hudson) landed safely in the water but WAY off course?

In the ocean, at night? This ain't the Hudson.

Anything is possible, but I'd believe the meteor strike "theory" quicker than I'd believe a 777 ditching in the ocean at night with survivors 5 days later.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: penguins
Posted 2014-03-12 08:33:51 and read 78968 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
As someone who studied aircraft systems, IFE in particular is one of the most vulnerable systems in an airliner...
BUt I'm speculating as much as most of us here...

If your theory is right (and I think it might be), then this crash has eery similarities to SR111. They said it was an accident bound to happen again.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SQ452
Posted 2014-03-12 08:34:53 and read 78467 times.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 134):

Typically the media dont care what they do or who they hurt/manipulate as long as they can milk the story as long as possible. They should do the honorable thing and let the families grieve and the searchers search without interruptions and ridiculous press feeding frenzies where they deliberately try and trip up the various media liasons to try and flame the conspiracy theories a bit more in order to report the next 'newsflash'. The truth will come out eventually, maybe not in time for the next season of air crash investigations or when we all have lost interest but these guys are professionals doing a thankless and difficult job who will provide more information when they have anything relevent.

While I don't wholly disagree with you that there are those in the media that are out to intentionally try to trip up officials to flame the controversy and come up with some attention grabbing newsflash; this situation I believe has moved beyond that as officials have seemingly contradicted themselves without pokes and pries from the media. The press conference today was rough to watch and there was definitely some questions that were those "gotcha" journalism style questions meant to trip up the panel, but the panel isn't on top of their stuff either and they come across as disorganized, unprepared and in some cases a bit insincere.

Someone alluded to it in an earlier post; this is a culture clash - these guys are not used to the media throwing them hardballs in Malaysia; then they have a global crisis on their hands, western media descends and they attempt to deal with them like domestic media which doesn't work and hence you have what is unfolding in front of you now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-12 08:37:51 and read 78197 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 139):
They're not trying to trip anyone up, they are tripping themselves up - which is why when you have a coordinated effort, you have specific professionals that communicate with the media so that you don't have this report/retraction cycle thing happening.

Total BS. The press likes bad press conferences, creates a lot of speculation, sensational non-news, endless non-stories to sell to the public. They could handle conferences better but S&R operation is the #1 priority now. Rather one man more searching out there than one PR puppet smiling on land.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 08:39:51 and read 78386 times.

Quoting art (Reply 112):
Do they mean the ACARS system sent no data during the entire flight?
Quoting art (Reply 130):
Thanks for that. As I see it, an absence of ACARS data being transmitted is not abnormal.

There have been reports from Rolls Royce that the accident a/c sent 2 engine status messages - at take off and 20 minutes later. They were unremarkable. So ACARS was operating before the LOS event.

I believe that means that what is being said is the ACARS did not transmit anything remarkable.

-------
Sanity check.
I'm going to try to list what we know, not what we think - we being the public. And sadly it is very short.

- The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
- The last comms were a normal handoff from Malaysia to Vietnam control.
- It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.
- The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.
- There is some reports of a descent and turn - based on primary radar.
- But there is confusion about the veracity of that.
- There is some confusion (in the press) about if the descent was 3000ft or to 3000ft
- There was a primary radar return tracked west over the Malacca straits.
- Since it is primarily - a reflection - we do not know that it is the accident a/c.
- We do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns.
- We have no ELT signal detected.

Based on this information - authorities are searching 2 areas - near the planned route and in the Malacca straight.
- Frankly - this is quite reasonable. You search where you have evidence the a/c may be.

There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.
- We have no data to support any of them.
- The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the 'government is hiding it' aspects
- It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.

We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.
- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.

There are lots of people talking about "mobile phones".
- We know that if any mobile phones were connected to the tower - we would have a location and would search there.
- We don't have any reports or evidence of that - so I conclude that it is not viable to consider.

We have had a lot of "false" sightings
- This is common and we need to investigate the credible ones. Most will be false.

In summary
We KNOW 3 things.
- The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
- There is some evidence that it traveled west. But that evidence is not conclusive or sure.
- We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

That is all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SQ452
Posted 2014-03-12 08:40:29 and read 77517 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 138):
There are almost 2000 million people living around South China Sea, much busier shipping lanes than anywhere around USA So the coast guards there are much busier than in the US. Americans also have less than stellar record with Katrina and Haiti response.

Won't argue with you on Katrina (that was embarrassing) but I was specifically talking about one of the Civil Air Patrol's missions in the U.S. (searching for downed planes) and specifically to land based searches for downed aircraft (from my recollection, they don't do aerial searches much over the sea but I believe they were involved in the search for JFK Jr.s plane that crashed off of Martha's Vineyard a while back).

If you are not familiar with the Civil Air Patrol I would suggest you read up on them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 08:40:44 and read 78167 times.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 135):
Could explain the cell phones working briefly perhaps.

No... No... No.... and once again... NO!

I listened to an attempted phone call to a person onboard a crashed aircraft once.. it rang... but after a while it rejected itself or said it was out of coverage area... the airplane was found a few days literally against a cliff, totally outside of any cellphone coverage area...

Cell phones claiming to be reachable was also claimed during the days when Adam Air 574 was missing... guess what? they found it under water...

So... please kindly, throw away any notion that because you get a ringing tone, the phone on the other end is within coverage!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-12 08:41:32 and read 77552 times.

Many people here have been criticizing Malaysian authorities for SAR performance and question how is it possible that the plane has not been found in several days. Well, let's do a simple math.

Let's say that the total search area is 500 x 500 km. Searching from air for small objects in sea water (with waves) means that you probably can't detect anything beyond few hundred meters. So the most "width" you can cover in a single pass is ~1 km wide stripe. You also don't want to fly too fast because you risk missing important clues. So let's assume that the search aircraft is flying 250 km/h. Now, in order to cover a 500 x 500 km area you would need 500 passes, 2 hrs long each = 1000 flight-hours. Considering that you can perform 10 hrs of search per day, this is 100 search-days. Or 10 search-days employing 10 aircraft full-time. In practice you can expect at best 50% "time efficiency" because of re-fueling, crew rotation, etc.

I can tell you from experience that an object of the size of a human being becomes "invisible" at only few hundred meters away in rough seas. It may pop up among the waves for a second and then is out of sight for a long time. SAR is a very tough job and it can take very long time to find a seemingly "obvious" target.

It always amazes me how "armchair" experts voice opinions without having any practical knowledge of a subject.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: AviRaider
Posted 2014-03-12 08:41:40 and read 77640 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 138):
There are almost 2000 million people living around South China Sea, much busier shipping lanes than anywhere around USA. Americans also have less than stellar record with Katrina and Haiti response.

You've said that same line twice now. What exactly is your point? Because your comparing a truck load of apples to one orange.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 08:43:24 and read 77253 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 110):
I assume (but I don't know for certain), that they followed the blip from the direction of where the transponders stopped working. But do we know the altitude of this blip? I know they said slow and weak...

I don't think the blip started exactly where MH370 lost contact. When they reviewed radar data they found a target traveling from Gulf of Thailand to Pulau Perak. It could just be a Maritime Surveillance aircraft from some country. Crossing Thailand/Malaysia where the land mass is the narrowest could be a sign it is trying to minimize radar contact.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: A380Heavy
Posted 2014-03-12 08:44:01 and read 77392 times.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 117):

I would suggest that a large aircraft, on fire, possibly with a forward speed in the region of 500mph, falling from the best part of 7 miles up is unlikely to remain in tact when it hits the water, nor would the debris field be that small.

A smaller debris field would possibly occur if the aircraft was carrying little forward speed so either a near/vertical dive or if the aircraft stalled and came down flat. Either way when the aircraft hit the water it would be almost like hitting concrete meaning again it would be highly improbable that the aircraft would remain in tact.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:48:18 and read 76283 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):
The "last suspected blip" was at FL295 at 200NM NW of PEN... but they could not confirm this was MH370, and neither could they confirm if any unidentified blips made it across the peninsula that night and that they were of MH370.

Am I right in thinking that they were actually in the SIN SSR when the transponders stopped responding? If so, what are the protocols for exchanging information with Malaysian and other contiguous SSRs?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 08:48:37 and read 76892 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 121):

A life raft at Port Dickson?

The location seems odd.

Do they even carry such separate life rafts on airliners?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:50:11 and read 76549 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 143):
Total BS. The press likes bad press conferences, creates a lot of speculation, sensational non-news, endless non-stories to sell to the public. They could handle conferences better but S&R operation is the #1 priority now. Rather one man more searching out there than one PR puppet smiling on land.

I am sorry your news outlets are so bad. Ours are not.

It's not about a smiling puppet, it's about coordinating your messages even from your own government, which they seem incapable of doing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Unflug
Posted 2014-03-12 08:50:26 and read 76602 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 144):
That is all.

That sums it up, nothing more to say at this point.

Quoting moderators (Reply 146):
Please note that routine maintenance has been scheduled for the site from 9am through 11am PST (Pacific Standard Time) on March 12, 2014. That's GMT -8 hours.

I'm following these threads closely, and this time I'm looking forward to the downtime  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:51:55 and read 76445 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 153):
A life raft at Port Dickson?

See the previous thread. It's not from a 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-12 08:52:56 and read 76114 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 154):
I am sorry your news outlets are so bad. Ours are not.

HA! Copycat little America there.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:53:58 and read 76029 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 148):

It always amazes me how "armchair" experts voice opinions without having any practical knowledge of a subject.

I don't think anyone is criticizing their ability to search a particular grid effectively. The criticism is about their ability to coordinate such a large international effort, the amount of information they are sharing with their partners, and the lack of information provided to the public.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 08:54:26 and read 76026 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 144):

Very good summary.   

Please, someone pin this on top of the following thread(s)!

And maybe add:

- the primary radar return in the West gave 2 possible locations, both not verified / verifiable
- "new" reports about ringing cellphones and a yellow life raft that says "boarding" have been posted several times, and been refuted

(Still not sure about the story on the "mumbling" response to another airplane's call - that was dismissed as not true as well, right?)

[Edited 2014-03-12 08:57:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 08:55:54 and read 75873 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 148):
I can tell you from experience that an object of the size of a human being becomes "invisible" at only few hundred meters away in rough seas.

How about floating debris from a crashed 777 in relatively calm seas?

Quoting katekebo (Reply 148):
SAR is a very tough job and it can take very long time to find a seemingly "obvious" target.

I think most people on this forum would agree. But a tough job demands a competent effort. I think that is what many people think is missing in this situation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 08:57:04 and read 75378 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 157):
HA! Copycat little America there.

I knew you would find that amusing. At least I said sorry!

Anyhow I'm just saying that's not my experience. Some outlets do hunt for sensational stories even in the wake of disaster, but it seemed to me most of the representatives of the outlets at that presser legitimately wanted real answers. Information coming out of the country has been incredibly unreliable with the report/retraction cycle as I mentioned.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SQ452
Posted 2014-03-12 08:57:07 and read 75398 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 148):
Many people here have been criticizing Malaysian authorities for SAR performance and question how is it possible that the plane has not been found in several days. Well, let's do a simple math.

Let's say that the total search area is 500 x 500 km. Searching from air for small objects in sea water (with waves) means that you probably can't detect anything beyond few hundred meters. So the most "width" you can cover in a single pass is ~1 km wide stripe. You also don't want to fly too fast because you risk missing important clues. So let's assume that the search aircraft is flying 250 km/h. Now, in order to cover a 500 x 500 km area you would need 500 passes, 2 hrs long each = 1000 flight-hours. Considering that you can perform 10 hrs of search per day, this is 100 search-days. Or 10 search-days employing 10 aircraft full-time. In practice you can expect at best 50% "time efficiency" because of re-fueling, crew rotation, etc.

I can tell you from experience that an object of the size of a human being becomes "invisible" at only few hundred meters away in rough seas. It may pop up among the waves for a second and then is out of sight for a long time. SAR is a very tough job and it can take very long time to find a seemingly "obvious" target.

It always amazes me how "armchair" experts voice opinions without having any practical knowledge of a subject.

I think what may frustrate a lot of people on this forum is HOW the search is being managed and HOW that information is being disseminated to the public. I don't think anyone means to take away anything from the people actually searching in the sea and sky - I don't doubt their commitment to finding this plane. But are things organized in the most efficient and effective manner possible? The performance of the authorities at the press conferences and what they say in and to the media so far leads me and many others to think they haven't a clue about how to go about this effectively and I am guessing this is new territory for many of those involved.

Most people I think just expect the first 72 hours for something to be found, then the realization sets in that it may take a lot longer. I realize that. It's surprising something hasn't been found but at the same time it isn't. SAR is a tough thing and most of us on this forum realize that, but that will be harder for members of the public and family members of the passengers to understand: they expect and want answers ASAP as they are grieving and you can't really blame them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: evomutant
Posted 2014-03-12 08:59:38 and read 75027 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 158):
I don't think anyone is criticizing their ability to search a particular grid effectively. The criticism is about their ability to coordinate such a large international effort, the amount of information they are sharing with their partners, and the lack of information provided to the public.

And why do the public have a god given right to know every in and out of the search effort? Some awfully spoilt people nowadays who demand everything.

As for the partners, who said their is no cooperation? It is sideline sniping, nothing more, based on a childish response to not being told everything they want to know.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-12 09:00:06 and read 74860 times.

Did the Vietnamese (or any other) authorities prove or disprove the observation by the oil rig worker? That seems to be the most promising lead so far.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1202910/oi...lines-flight-mh370-go-down-report/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-12 12:21:18 and read 74874 times.

CNN is reporting that 42 ships and 39 aircraft are looking for MH370. Nothing has been found, not a single trace to go after even though there has been so much effort put on the search. Surreal.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 12:22:11 and read 75656 times.

Avherald is reporting that Chinese satellite imagery from Mar 9 has revealed 3 large pieces of debris

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b

It's a good lead...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 12:24:48 and read 74750 times.

Quoting evomutant (Reply 163):
And why do the public have a god given right to know every in and out of the search effort? Some awfully spoilt people nowadays who demand everything.

Transparency in these sorts of things is lauded as a virtue and is often seen as the mark of good governance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-12 12:26:51 and read 74929 times.

Jeej, we are back!
Thanks crew!

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 166):

That they can recognize anything out of those pictures. Its also way out of the intended flightpath(giving the fact that the pictures are made on saturday morning already if i understand the text correctly).

But indeed! Its a start!

[Edited 2014-03-12 12:28:57]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: johnsonseattle
Posted 2014-03-12 12:27:41 and read 75175 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 164):
Did the Vietnamese (or any other) authorities prove or disprove the observation by the oil rig worker? That seems to be the most promising lead so far.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1202910/oi...lines-flight-mh370-go-down-report/

This isn't an official statement or anything, but:

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-12 12:28:45 and read 74756 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 164):

Did the Vietnamese (or any other) authorities prove or disprove the observation by the oil rig worker? That seems to be the most promising lead so far.

Yes, they sent a SAR aircraft to the coordinates and found nothing, apparently.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-12 12:28:52 and read 74740 times.

Would the new FAA AD on the depressuriztion/break-up risk on the 777 cause loss of the transponder and comm antennas? One expert suggest that if the decomp event occurred and the pilots changed course prior to donning their masks then both pilots would likely pass out quickly and the plane would fly on the new course until it ran out of fuel.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...rrosion-problem-boeing-777s-n50591

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-12 12:30:11 and read 75007 times.

Quoting evomutant (Reply 163):
And why do the public have a god given right to know every in and out of the search effort?


  

I have said this many times in these threads.... SAR amongst other things is in my field and i would bet there is more information that isn't publicly available, and thats just fine.

I said ages back that i was certain there was information sharing between the military and the SAR forces otherwise they wouldn't have been searching to the west...

They don't really need a.net armchair approval...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 12:31:39 and read 74846 times.

Quoting 456 (Reply 167):
That they can recognize anything out of those pictures. Its also way out of the intended flightpath(giving the fact that the pictures are made on saturday morning already if i understand the text correctly).

The debris is within their glide range, and that's after ocean currents had a day to move them around. The fact that they are quite large is what makes them interesting.

It could be anything. But it's the best we've got right now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 12:32:49 and read 74549 times.

What equipment does it take to detect the black box signals and what is the range of these signals?

Given that we have 25 days left now for the black box signals to die out i think the SAR folks need to divide up the areas and start search for the black box signals in parallel to aerial searches for the wreckage.

Gulf of Thailand - Malaysian & Vietnamese navies maybe?
Andaman Sea and Bay of Bengal - Indian Navy and Thai Navy maybe?
Strait of Malacca and the adjoining areas around the Malay peninsula - Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysian Navies maybe?
South China Sea - Japan, China & Philippines maybe?
Indian Ocean - best bet would be US & Australia with US carrier and submarine assets.

The grim scenario in this whole search are 2 scenarios

1) If the plane veered due east and went over the open Pacific Ocean
OR
2) Went due West/South West taking it over the open Indian Ocean.

The biggest question/issue would be who would pay for all this!? To me it seems to be in the best interest of everyone to find out what happened and rule out any sinister plot.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-12 12:33:21 and read 74592 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 169):

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 164):

Did the Vietnamese (or any other) authorities prove or disprove the observation by the oil rig worker? That seems to be the most promising lead so far.

Yes, they sent a SAR aircraft to the coordinates and found nothing, apparent

Not surprised they didnt find anything. If there was anything there it would have drifted away with the currents by the time it was checked out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-12 12:33:29 and read 74747 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 165):
Avherald is reporting that Chinese satellite imagery from Mar 9 has revealed 3 large pieces of debris

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b

It's a good lead...

I think it is good to check satellite images from March 9 rather than the Tomnod images that are more recent.

I wonder if anyone (governments, I suppose) are searching IR images about the time of the disappearance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: barney captain
Posted 2014-03-12 12:37:27 and read 74558 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 165):
Avherald is reporting that Chinese satellite imagery from Mar 9 has revealed 3 large pieces of debris

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b

It's a good lead...

Great synopsis in that link - thank you.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: phxa340
Posted 2014-03-12 12:38:28 and read 75052 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 165):

Were those Debris found closer to where they lost initial contact or where the military is claiming they tracked it to ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-12 12:38:43 and read 75310 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 175):

I think it is good to check satellite images from March 9 rather than the Tomnod images that are more recent.

I wonder if anyone (governments, I suppose) are searching IR images about the time of the disappearance.

I spent some time on Tomnod this morning, and I THINK the images on there courtesy of DigitalGlobe ARE from March 9th. That's what they were date-stamped, anyhow.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 12:41:14 and read 75018 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 165):
Avherald is reporting that Chinese satellite imagery from Mar 9 has revealed 3 large pieces of debris

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=47...0c69b

Thanks, indeed this sounds a little promising (and pretty unspectacular too, compared to the wild speculations).

Quote:
Late Mar 12th 2014 China's State Administration of Science (SASTIND) reported, they discovered three large objects sized 13x18, 14x19 and 24x22 meters at position N6.7 E105.63 (121nm eastsoutheast of the last known secondary radar position), all three objects within a radius of 20km (11nm) and published the satellite images, taken on Mar 9th 2014 at 11:00 Beijing time (03:00Z), see below. SASTIND stated they are committed to provide further search services to locate flight MH-370.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 12:43:19 and read 74883 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 177):
Were those Debris found closer to where they lost initial contact or where the military is claiming they tracked it to ?

121nm southeast of last secondary radar contact.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: planesmart
Posted 2014-03-12 12:43:19 and read 74995 times.

I think maybe the Malaysian authorities are being a little mischevious with their reporting. The aircraft was ACARS capable, but I'm guessing the airline does not use the facility.

RR will be subscribing to monitor for power by the hour, probably minimum reporting - takeoff, reach cruise, landing reverse thrust, plus inflight abnormalities.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-12 12:43:29 and read 75036 times.

And more resources sent.

Now I see why some reports quoted the Chinese nationals as "china/taiwan"

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2014/03/13/2003585544
On Monday, a Chengkung-class navy frigate and two coast guard patrol vessels were dispatched to join international efforts to look for the plane that disappeared in the early hours of Saturday. The ships are expected to reach the search area tomorrow.
Over the past two days, two C-130 transport planes have been dispatched to the South China Sea by the air force to help look for the missing aircraft.

Wouldn't sending their nice new P3s make more sense??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-12 12:44:04 and read 74994 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 178):
I spent some time on Tomnod this morning, and I THINK the images on there courtesy of DigitalGlobe ARE from March 9th. That's what they were date-stamped, anyhow.

OK. I saw something on twitter that said they had fresh images. But maybe they meant from a different area.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 12:44:33 and read 74984 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 177):
Were those Debris found closer to where they lost initial contact or where the military is claiming they tracked it to ?

Go to the avherald link. They have a map.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: ejl
Posted 2014-03-12 12:44:57 and read 75528 times.

Hi

two quick graphics; one from Google Earth showing the last known position of MH-370, a guess at a potential crash site as per the n2yo website (also detected from satellite), the location of the china satellite debris, the location of the oil well observer and the location of a potential site that I found by scouring satellite imagery from the 8th of March (see the 2nd graphic below)...showing a Landsat 8 image (a bit funky with the colors the way they are...enhanced to see certain features, not necessarily to look like true color) from 8 March at 03h27 UTC more or less along the intended flight path of MH-370 with several large pieces of debris (one is white shiny) and a hydrocarbon slick (the black area within the red square). Hydrocarbons in water affect the reflectance as detected by the satellite so, in this image, they appear black. A passing ship is also visible at a distance of 8 km from the site....



[Edited 2014-03-12 12:51:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 12:44:58 and read 75021 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 175):
I wonder if anyone (governments, I suppose) are searching IR images about the time of the disappearance.

The US said they have good coverage of the area and did not detect an explosion.

They would not be able to detect one lower in the atmosphere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-12 12:46:03 and read 75006 times.

Have all those latest debris images that have been found been analysed by professionals? Have they been marked as nothing to do with MH370?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-12 12:46:57 and read 75219 times.

On the AD:

"The problem with 777's satellite antenna was identified by the US Federal Aviation Administration last June but the Air Directive telling airlines to inspect this part of the plane for cracks was not issued by the FAA until February 18.
The 777-200 ER, the model operating flight MH370, was not specifically identified in the directive.
According to a Malaysia Airlines spokesman, the missing aircraft was serviced on February 23, with further maintenance scheduled for June 19. It is not known whether the airline picked up the directive.
A structural failure related to the flaw could disable satellite communications, including the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System, which transmits data of the plane's location automatically, the directive warns.
It would also have rendered the plane invisible to all but ''primary radar'', which has a range of only 100 nautical miles.
The directive also warned cracking and corrosion at this point could lead to ''rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity of the airplane''.


Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 12:47:42 and read 74863 times.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 181):
I think maybe the Malaysian authorities are being a little mischevious with their reporting. The aircraft was ACARS capable, but I'm guessing the airline does not use the facility.

That would be consistent with how the Malay authorities seem to have been handling this whole affair.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 12:52:00 and read 75025 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 187):
Have all those latest debris images that have been found been analysed by professionals? Have they been marked as nothing to do with MH370?

Not yet. They were only revealed about two hours ago. There is not enough detail in the images for even professionals to say conclusively. They will have to locate the debris. Sunrise and the start of air SAR is in 3 hours or so.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2014-03-12 12:52:25 and read 74852 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
There are not so many possibile occurrencies that answer these questions in a logical manner :
- One is a takeover from one of the flight deck crew members...
- Another is a fire in the electronic bay (s) of the airplane

I've heard both as pretty much the only reasons a transponder would be turned off from several other sources as well.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 73):
What kind of system do you want?
Streaming blackboxes through satcom? I asked a question that the advocators of this has so far been unable to answer: "What happens when the airplane's upside down?"

Good to see both you and Pihero here. I'll just reply to the few comments I've seen here about why we don't stream the blackboxes through satcom. I know you have a lot of knowledge in this field, so just to add to your point, remember BEA during the AF447 investigation put together a working group that studied the technologies available and provided a cost/benefit analysis. That information is contained in these documents:

Triggered Transmission of Flight Data Working Group Report

The one above specifically addresses sending data using SatCom, and

Flight Data Recovery Working Group Report

I think we both agree that the most sensible response would be using onboard equipment evaluating flight parameters to identify when data transmission (e.g., location, unusual attitude, unusual speed) is prudent rather than stream all the data from all flights around the world at the same time. The conclusion of the first report said just that in 85% of the accidents they studied triggered transmission would have been successful.

I will add though that the BEA report does state that, "SatCom systems with more than two antennas have the potential to perform extremely well in all aircraft environments, regardless of aircraft attitude."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-12 12:53:21 and read 74875 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 188):
The 777-200 ER, the model operating flight MH370, was not specifically identified in the directive.

The -200ER is nothing more than a weight variant of the -200, it was called the IGW (increased gross weight ) initially. If you look at the actual AD all the " true" 777 variants are covered.
"This AD applies to The Boeing Company Model 777-200, -200LR, -300, -300ER, and -777F
series airplanes, certificated in any category, as identified in Boeing Alert Service Bulletin 777-
53A0068, dated June 12, 2013. "

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 12:53:26 and read 74780 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 188):
On the AD:

Where is that quote from?

Way up thread somewhere someone said that the incident aircraft did not have its SatCom antenna in the dome on top of the fuselage. It's possible the AD did not apply to it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rdwootty
Posted 2014-03-12 12:53:35 and read 74829 times.

One small thing.. I understand there were 5 no shows.Did all the bags get taken off? Have all the missing customers been identified and all the bags been screened? Were they all direct joiners or connectors.
This mystery is getting a bit concerning as the Malaysians seem to know more than they say.. Radar ? sorry we dont know.. TRacking sorry it was all lost and we do not have the ability to track our aircraft. The radar is run by the military and they may not want to admit that they had a large aircraft not on a recognised route and did not let the higher ups know.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: DUSdude
Posted 2014-03-12 12:54:00 and read 74895 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 188):
The problem with 777's satellite antenna

We've been over this in earlier parts of this thread. This particular 777 did not have the satcomm antenna installed that is affected by this AD.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-12 12:55:40 and read 74877 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 190):
Not yet. They were only revealed about two hours ago. There is not enough detail in the images for even professionals to say conclusively. They will have to locate the debris. Sunrise and the start of air SAR is in 3 hours or so.

Well I'm praying for any sort of breakthrough. I hope these images are the breakthrough they need.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-12 12:56:10 and read 74804 times.

I understand that NTSB assists in examining Malaysian military radar recordings. Hopefully that examination will provide a definitive answer whether the secondary radar observations are consistent with a 777-200ER or belong to some other aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 12:56:33 and read 74927 times.

Quoting rdwootty (Reply 194):
One small thing.. I understand there were 5 no shows.Did all the bags get taken off?

The Malaysian authorities have stated that they never checked in, there were never any bags, and it was only 4 people not 5.

Considering it was another Malaysian authority who previously made the contradictory statements, it's understandable to be confused.

The answer is: We don't know. But the most recent info is that they didn't even check in.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-12 12:56:38 and read 75418 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 193):
Where is that quote from?

Here: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing-...-from-the-crew-20140312-34mqg.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 12:56:46 and read 74828 times.

Quoting rdwootty (Reply 194):
.Did all the bags get taken off?

Apparently they were never put on.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-12 12:57:21 and read 74891 times.

Quoting evomutant (Reply 162):
And why do the public have a god given right to know every in and out of the search effort? Some awfully spoilt people nowadays who demand everything.

Because a not insignificant number of people among that public knew or were even related to the people on that plane. It is certainly their "god given right" to know what happened to them and have confidence that what they're being told is accurate and truthful. And they shouldn't be under an obligation to sign an NDA if you're going to argue next that they can be told in private.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-12 12:58:00 and read 75605 times.

Quoting DUSdude (Reply 195):
We've been over this in earlier parts of this thread. This particular 777 did not have the satcomm antenna installed that is affected by this AD.

True but someone a zillion threads ago said the MH plane has TWO antenna on the sides rather than the usual one on the roof which is the subject of the AD. I have no idea if the cutout for a side antenna is any less structurally a potential problem or more than one on the roof. But if the underlying structure is the same maybe the MH plane has even more risk! .

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 12:58:17 and read 75731 times.

Quoting rdwootty (Reply 194):
One small thing.. I understand there were 5 no shows.Did all the bags get taken off?

This is one of those erroneous reports that had to be set straight later: Apparently, four passengers were booked on the flight but did not check in. No need to unload bags, hence no delay.

[Edited 2014-03-12 12:59:14]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-12 13:04:56 and read 75608 times.

The part of the fuselage that was reported by Boeing future problems may be evident - would a fire break loose if that part of the fuselage detached from the plane?

Edit: part of the fuselage that contained the transponder.

[Edited 2014-03-12 13:06:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 13:05:13 and read 75538 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 96):
we should have a good number of ACARS messages telling at least a good part of the failures and alerts.... we don't have anything.

We don't have anything because nothing has been released. The ACARS on 447 were available within 24 hours. We've heard nothing about maintenance and its possible they haven't even checked. When a bit of truth pops out it is smashed down.

The Vietnamese and Chinese governments are furious, as are the families, so there is no need for people to feel guilty about any Western cultural elitism. The state owned airline and Malaysian government (the same party in power for 50 years) are clearly hiding things to protect themselves and it's doing nobody any good.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-12 13:08:32 and read 76090 times.

Those pieces are all around 20+ meters in size and within 11 nautical miles. If they're not from an airplane, I'd like to know what else they could be.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-12 13:09:51 and read 75607 times.

Someone better be interrogating the witness from the oil rig. Failure to do so, or investigate the matter any further is a clear sign of covering up some type of unintentional horrible event, such as an automatic air defense system on a naval vessel, etc. The Malaysians are no where near inept or as dumb as their appearances in the media make them out to be, however their actions since the aircraft reported missing are outright disturbing and very very concerning to say the least.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 13:10:29 and read 75535 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 204):
would a fire break loose if that part of the fuselage detached from the plane?

If that happens you've got problems worse then a fire.

Edit: I see what you mean. At FL350 there probably would be no fire in the area where the antenna housing detached. Not enough O2.

[Edited 2014-03-12 13:14:05]

[Edited 2014-03-12 13:14:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-12 13:13:19 and read 75900 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 206):

This must be the breakthrough. Debris with a length of 20+ meters is not something you would see randomly laying in the ocean floating. If you were passing by an object the size of 20 meters in the ocean, you'd notice and want to know what it was.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-12 13:13:22 and read 75586 times.

On the ground somewhere?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQexNlbudW4

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 13:14:18 and read 75579 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 206):
Those pieces are all around 20 meters in size and within 11 nautical miles. If they're not from an airplane, I'd like to know what else they could be.

The problem is the imagery is from Mar 9, so god knows where they've gone, or if they're still floating. I hope they make an earnest effort to locate them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: andy33
Posted 2014-03-12 13:14:52 and read 75528 times.

Quoting rdwootty (Reply 194):
One small thing.. I understand there were 5 no shows.Did all the bags get taken off? Have all the missing customers been identified and all the bags been screened? Were they all direct joiners or connectors.

Subsequently denied at press conference - where the Inspector General of Police stated that there were no passengers who checked in but did not board. No bags were removed because everyone with checked baggage was on board.,
There were passengers who had booked but did not check in.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: jasondn
Posted 2014-03-12 13:15:14 and read 75521 times.

AF447 & MH370 happened in an area of heavy marine and air traffic

Without cursing any flights - I have now started to wonder how the S&R would take place if QF64 (SYD to JNB) or SA280 (PER to JNB) were to go missing mid-flight halfway across the Indian Ocean right close up to Antartica. This has got to be one of the most isolated routes in the world. It would probably take 2 weeks just to get 1x ship there, let along drones, Twin Otters, C130's scouring the seas from the air. Only the choppers on the ship will be able to do any form of aerial reconnaissance.

Is this area even got any form of radar coverage, or are you all by yourself?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 13:15:09 and read 76156 times.

Comparison of "Oil Rig Worker" data and China SANSTID data

Just for the heck of it, I did a bit of work in Google Earth to compare two reports.

First - the oil rig worker at 8 22 30.23 N by 108 42 22.26 E reported the fire on a bearing of 265-276 and 50-70 km

Second the China Sat photos at N6.7 E 105.63

Where are they relative to each other?

Well - if you start at the oil rig and look 270 degrees, you are looking substantially north of the China Sat debris sighting (which is about 240 degrees.)

But - if you take the surface current/rate reported by the worker (225/230 at 2.0-2.5 knots)- and assume the debris drifted that way, it is kind of interesting.

What you see is that if debris landed 70KM from the worker at 270 degrees and then drifted 235 degrees, it would intersect the China Sat sighting,

BUT - the distance is wrong. The distance from the oil worker's proposed location (which he admits is poor) to the China Sat location is 170 NM, which at a 2 knot drift speed would take 85 hours. The time between the two sightings is only about 34 hours (1722 Z the 7th to 300Z the 9th). But if you extend the oil workers sighting line to shorten the distance, the bearing is wrong for his reported surface current.

And - none of this explains how the plane got from the last know location to the Oil worker's sighting location.

Here is a picture.
Frankly - don't know if this means anything - but that they don't match up.

MH sighting lines

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-12 13:16:40 and read 75447 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 210):

If the plane was on the ground somewhere, other military radars would have picked up unidentified object across their radar raising suspicion. Objects not planned to cross a particular path.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 13:18:02 and read 75574 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 211):
The problem is the imagery is from Mar 9

That's a lot closer to the time the plane went missing. If the debris is actually from MH370 then March 9 info is better than March 12/13 (and March 8 would be even better).

[Edited 2014-03-12 13:23:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Pihero
Posted 2014-03-12 13:21:37 and read 75743 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 73):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
Why did ATC lose the flight's transponder ?
At IGARI, both K L and HCM were in radar coverage of the airway... yet both couldn't have a response from MH370's squawk.
There are not so many possibile occurrencies that answer these questions in a logical manner :
- One is a takeover from one of the flight deck crew members...
- Another is a fire in the electronic bay (s) of the airplane

The other thing is oxygen bottle fire in the electronics bay, but then, has that happened before?

It has happened ... on the ground... See Egyptair 772 fire on AvHerald The pics are sobering, aren't they ?

A similar occurrence : AAIB special bulletin on UA 772 LHR

These kinds of abnormalities in flight would have seriously graver effects on safety.
What is interesting is that the abnormal situation starts very gently : loss of one bus, no big deal, no need to call home... until suddeenly one is a full fledged emergency with high life-threatening possibilities...including pilots' incapacitation.
But it's only one possible scenario.
Must be others...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-12 13:23:27 and read 76115 times.

Tomnod seems interested in the image and have tweeted it to CNN and Sky.

Annotated


http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

The only thing I can't figure out is where it is located. If it is near the site where China has located the debris, then we may be getting closer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: neoshi
Posted 2014-03-12 13:25:20 and read 75454 times.

Yeah Map 4894 has shown up numerous times throughout this topic...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 13:29:43 and read 75289 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 216):

That's a lot closer to the time the plane went missing. If the debris is actually from MH370 then March 9 info is better than March 12 (and March 8 would be even better).

I disagree. Finding the debris is most important to confirm the plane's fate. Ocean current modelling is accurate enough to be able to backtrack the debris' position to locate the underwater debris field for investigation efforts. It may be a long job but it's not a tough job, not at those depths, when you can narrow your search area down so much. Right now SAR is spread all over the goddamn region, if they confirm it, things get easier.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-12 13:32:55 and read 75100 times.

Quoting kmot (Reply 218):
Tomnod seems interested in the image and have tweeted it to CNN and Sky.

Has this area not been scanned by the search team?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: longhaul67
Posted 2014-03-12 13:39:05 and read 75818 times.

CNN International just reported that Chinese Government Agency may have satellite images of the wreckage!
They have measured the length of what could be pieces of the airframe, and it seems to be within the 772's dimensions.

"From CNN Asia:
(CNN) -- A Chinese satellite looking into the mysterious disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 "observed a suspected crash area at sea," a Chinese agency said.

[Edited 2014-03-12 13:41:29]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 13:40:18 and read 75187 times.

Quoting longhaul67 (Reply 222):
CNN International just reported that Chinese Government Agency may have satellite images of the wreckage!
They have measured the length of what could be pieces of the airframe, and it seems to be within the 772's dimensions.

Welcome to the thread. Scroll up.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-12 13:42:04 and read 74954 times.

Quoting longhaul67 (Reply 222):

Let's not get our hopes up. I will only be relieved once I see and get official confirmation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-12 13:42:08 and read 75272 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 210):
On the ground somewhere?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQexNlbudW4

Sees an A380 with someone pointing at it and saying how does a triple 7 dissappear.....closes the window. Can't be taken serious......

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 13:44:39 and read 74922 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 220):
Ocean current modelling is accurate enough to be able to backtrack the debris' position to locate the underwater debris field for investigation efforts.

Should work for forward tracking too. We'll see if they find anything. If they do, the March 9 pictures could be very useful for locating any main wreckage.

[Edited 2014-03-12 13:47:24]

[Edited 2014-03-12 13:47:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: longhaul67
Posted 2014-03-12 13:48:58 and read 75977 times.

According to CNN these latest Chinese images were released within the last few minutes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-12 13:49:28 and read 75704 times.

Im not sure. We have also seemed to find a small yellow object north east of this site.

Center grid, lower right corner. In addition, in the grids to the left you can see an oil slick.

Possible raft?
oil slick

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 13:50:02 and read 75380 times.

Quoting longhaul67 (Reply 227):
According to CNN these latest Chinese images were released within the last few minutes.

Too bad they weren't released they day they were made.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 13:51:14 and read 75363 times.

Quoting kmot (Reply 229):
in the grids to the left you can see an oil slick.

How do you know it's an "oil slick?"

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-12 13:53:48 and read 75274 times.

I can't say for sure but they do have examples on their site.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 13:55:07 and read 75488 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 230):
Too bad they weren't released they day they were made.

Yeah, I smell government cover up.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: awthompson
Posted 2014-03-12 13:56:13 and read 75449 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 209):
This must be the breakthrough. Debris with a length of 20+ meters is not something you would see randomly laying in the ocean floating. If you were passing by an object the size of 20 meters in the ocean, you'd notice and want to know what it was.

Surely there are no parts in the region of 20 metres in dimension that would float on a Boeing 777? Some have argued as to whether the tail fin on a 777 would float of not, if there was air trapped within, it may well do. But three pieces of that size from the same plane? I would doubt it.

What the oil rig worker saw could have easily been a meteor or a piece of space junk burning up. He saw little or no movement from the angle he watched so the burning object, whatever it was was heading either towards him or away from him.

I once saw a piece of space junk burning up in the sky. It just looked like an object on fire, throwing off burning pieces as it traveled. If such was moving towards the observer and falling, it is possible for it to appear almost stationary in the sky relative to the observer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PW100
Posted 2014-03-12 14:00:10 and read 75195 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 47):
The Malaysian Airforce . . . .

Glad that I'm not the only one seeing things through anything but pink glasses, and calling the rest of the world incompetent. Welcome to my RR listing!

PW100

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:00:17 and read 75044 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 233):
Yeah, I smell government cover up

I wasn't being facetious. I was saying that it's too bad they weren't released the day they were made.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-12 14:00:37 and read 75126 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 221):
Has this area not been scanned by the search team?

But SAR crews fly over the scene quickly, have about six or eight eyes at their disposal, while thousands of people are staring at satellite pictures. They have relatively much time to discuss their opinions, and can revisit the place without flying there.

Both things can complement each other.

I remember a girl that was missing in Switzerland. Police searched and searched and found nothing, while a IT guy, in his spare time, combined SAR and walking the dog... and found the body in a place that was already searched by police.

Quoting hivue (Reply 226):
Has this area not been scanned by the search team?

Don't forget wind, too! Things that are exposed to the air (like the famous galley of AF447) can be driven more by wind than by oceanic currents.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2014-03-12 14:02:22 and read 75325 times.

Quoting captainx:

On the ground somewhere?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQexNlbudW4


What a crock. First they show a picture of an A380 then they interview a 'veteran pilot' who says Boeing aircraft are indestructible.

Sorry but that is non-reporting going to a new level!

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 14:02:57 and read 75230 times.

Quoting longhaul67 (Reply 227):
According to CNN these latest Chinese images were released within the last few minutes.

Sorry if I was rude. These images have been online for about 3 hours and I posted the link in this thread as soon as the site came up. It's a good idea to read at least the current thread before posting, since people were speaking about the images directly above your post.

Quoting hivue (Reply 230):
Too bad they weren't released they day they were made.

I'm not sure if you are joking, but imaging such a large area takes time, and even with computer-assisted detection of 'anomalies' so to speak there is still a massive amount of human effort involved in looking through every image.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2014-03-12 14:03:42 and read 75397 times.

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the actual SASTIND images are supposedly here:
http://www.sastind.gov.cn/n112/n117/c303244/content.html

That site is heavily overloaded, however.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 14:05:40 and read 75202 times.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 234):
Surely there are no parts in the region of 20 metres in dimension that would float on a Boeing 777? Some have argued as to whether the tail fin on a 777 would float of not, if there was air trapped within, it may well do. But three pieces of that size from the same plane? I would doubt it.

If you look at the pictures, they are not perfect rectangles. Certainly certain pieces can meet those dimensions if the fuselage breaks up in an interesting way. We have to remain optimistic. These are large pieces, this is a large airplane. It's the best we have right now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 14:06:00 and read 75334 times.

Chinese satellites can get clearer pictures than this. They just put fuzzy ones out to the public for military secrecy reasons. Almost certainly they have seen identifying markers and this is the wreckage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:06:51 and read 74962 times.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 234):
Surely there are no parts in the region of 20 metres in dimension that would float on a Boeing 777?

They could be many pieces of debris conglomerated.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-12 14:07:58 and read 75194 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 236):
I wasn't being facetious. I was saying that it's too bad they weren't released the day they were made.

My apologies if that came across rude.   

I for one am happy if they actually found something at all, and I realize that analyzing a lot of data might take a few days. IN any case: fingers crossed.

[Edited 2014-03-12 14:10:01]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-12 14:07:00 and read 75212 times.

If you replace "challenge" with "api" in the address bar, Tomnod gives you an error message with the coordinates. These match up with the search area and flight plan with a westerly turn.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/api/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

Annotated
Approximate position.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-12 14:07:15 and read 75073 times.

If you replace "challenge" with "api" in the address bar, Tomnod gives you an error message with the coordinates. These match up with the search area and flight plan with a westerly turn.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/api/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

Annotated
Approximate position.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 14:09:40 and read 75204 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 242):
Chinese satellites can get clearer pictures than this. They just put fuzzy ones out to the public for military secrecy reasons. Almost certainly they have seen identifying markers and this is the wreckage.

Don't be so sure ... Space-based optical imaging is a tougher problem than you think. That being said, it's a possibility.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Eagleboy
Posted 2014-03-12 14:11:14 and read 75117 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 242):
Chinese satellites can get clearer pictures than this. They just put fuzzy ones out to the public for military secrecy reasons. Almost certainly they have seen identifying markers and this is the wreckage.

Indeed.. they may have not released them till now thinking that the debris field would be found by ships earlier.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:14:22 and read 75102 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 239):
I'm not sure if you are joking, but imaging such a large area takes time, and even with computer-assisted detection of 'anomalies' so to speak there is still a massive amount of human effort involved in looking through every image.

Yes, I understand that. This looks to me like the best lead so far. But, as others have noted, the "debris" in the images needs to be verified. It would have been easier to find on March 9 (and may have sunk or been dispersed by now).

[Edited 2014-03-12 14:15:50]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-12 14:16:50 and read 74904 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 249):

But then I would expect more floating debris in the area, if those large parts ripped of from the plane and are sunked by now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 14:17:14 and read 74925 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 249):
Yes, I understand that. This looks to me like the best lead so far. But, as others have noted, the "debris" in the images needs to be verified. It would have been easier to find on March 9 (and may have sunk or been dispersed by now).

Sunrise is in two hours, so hopefully we will hear something before the next terrible presser in the evening.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:18:12 and read 75203 times.

Quoting 456 (Reply 250):
I would expect more floating debris in the area

More would be nice. You take what you can get.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-12 14:20:06 and read 75647 times.

My only problem with these images is that they potentially shows the aircraft or at least the fuselage pretty much in one piece.

BUT, how does someone execute a Hudson type landing with the aircraft essentially intact at night having suffered some sort of epic electrical/structural failure on the REAL sea and at night.

[Edited 2014-03-12 14:21:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PanAm1971
Posted 2014-03-12 14:21:21 and read 75452 times.

Those reported dimensions of spotted wreckage would seem to indicate something less than a high speed nose down impact. It would be completely tragic if survivors made it out of the 777 only to pass away while waiting for recue. Fingers crossed that someone made it out and is still alive.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-12 14:21:34 and read 75349 times.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 248):
Indeed.. they may have not released them till now thinking that the debris field would be found by ships earlier.

There is no point in withholding the images as there were so many Chinese nationals in the plane.

The pieces appear to be too large to be parts of a 777. And the location is not consistent with the Malaysian military radar recordings possibly capturing MH 370 flying west (admittedly we don't know that yet).

However, hopefully the Chinese are able to image the whole flying radius of the plane from the last known location and then comb through those images. That might be the best bet in locating the aircraft. It does not matter that combing the images would take weeks, as an approximate location of the plane should enable starting underwater searches,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2014-03-12 14:21:42 and read 75670 times.

If the sizes (approx. 20m x 20m) quoted are accurate, the only 777 configuration parts fitting that description would be the center fuselage with parts of the wing attached. This would argue for a relatively low velocity contact with the sea surface, assuming it is MH370.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:21:56 and read 75448 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 253):
My only problem with these images is that it potentially shows the aircraft pretty much in one piece.

They don't look like an airplane in one piece to me. They look like globs of floating junk (admittedly, as mentioned above, they're pretty fuzzy).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 14:21:56 and read 75626 times.

If you take the email from the Oil Rig and the Spot from the Chinese Satellite you get 209nm - I would think that at least is reasonable.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=8...E=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=

On a side note, does anyone find that Tomnod is SUPER annoying that they don't post the coordinates or am I missing something?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-12 14:23:15 and read 75211 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 252):
More would be nice. You take what you can get

Ah yes ofcourse. I mean it gives definitely hope!

What I meant was that if those large objects were already sunk to the bottom, it's still usefull to check with a plane that area, as more (smaller) debris will be visible then (or at least most likely).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-12 14:23:16 and read 75340 times.

Quoting kmot (Reply 228):
Im not sure. We have also seemed to find a small yellow object north west of this site.

Center grid, lower right corner. In addition, in the grids to the left you can see an oil slick.

Am I the only one, but your images show black space and arrows, with red circles and dots ... what do they prove?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:23:22 and read 75231 times.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 256):
If the sizes (approx. 20m x 20m) quoted are accurate, the only 777 configuration parts fitting that description would be the center fuselage with parts of the wing attached.

Why do you think they are single pieces?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-12 14:25:03 and read 75357 times.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 238):
What a crock. First they show a picture of an A380 then they interview a 'veteran pilot' who says Boeing aircraft are indestructible.

This reminds me of the AF447 threads. I appreciate the lack of any bashing (anti-Boeing or anti-Airbus) in this thread.

---

As an addition - I remember checking the weather for that region a day after the crash. The wind pattern was consistent with a crash anywhere near the Songa Mercur oil platform, and the position of these floating objects recently photographed by the Chinese satellites.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 14:26:26 and read 75367 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 242):

Chinese satellites can get clearer pictures than this. They just put fuzzy ones out to the public for military secrecy reasons. Almost certainly they have seen identifying markers and this is the wreckage.

I thought the same thing.

Quoting kmot (Reply 245):
If you replace "challenge" with "api" in the address bar, Tomnod gives you an error message with the coordinates. These match up with the search area and flight plan with a westerly turn.

THANK YOU so much. This was killing me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PhilV
Posted 2014-03-12 14:26:38 and read 75286 times.

Quoting 456 (Reply 250):

But then I would expect more floating debris in the area, if those large parts ripped of from the plane and are sunked by now.

Hopefully we still have debris floating around. In the area, debris would float towards the coastlines at the moment.

Wind on the surface:
http://earth.nullschool.net/#current...vel/orthographic=-250.24,5.23,1987

Hope for the best.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 14:30:20 and read 75231 times.

I wonder if the large floating objects could be the life rafts just grouped together into three groups. It gives some hope. I don't know the dimension of life rafts collectively. It might be too big. Or one or two could be life rafts, and another part could be the plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2014-03-12 14:31:26 and read 75232 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 210):
On the ground somewhere?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQexNlbudW4

How could you trust this type of report when Tony keeps on calling an A380 a B777  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-12 14:32:31 and read 75082 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 157):
The criticism is about their ability to coordinate such a large international effort.

That is always like herding cats. Each nation has its own chain of command. No nation is willing to be subservient to another nation about searches within their own waters/ area of interest.

Frankly France, the UK, Finland nor the US could do much better in coordinating such a multi-national effort.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 157):
the amount of information they are sharing with their partners

And how do any of us know that?

What we do see is a lot of officials from various nations speaking unofficially to reporters. Each almost certainly without full information which has been shared with his superiors by Malaysia and other nations.

Is there one verified report from any authorized national spokesman that they are not receiving information?

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 157):
and the lack of information provided to the public.

There is not duty or requirement to provide details about areas searched with no results, alternative contact methods tried, etc to the general public. Providing such details always leads to inaccurate speculation and fake confirmations by the press.

These are SAR professionals - it is insulting to the whole worldwide profession for everyone to question their methods, modalities and such without any detailed knowledge of exactly how they operate.

Communications with families of people on the plane is normally not detailed specific. It is also not for the mass of people worldwide interested.

Mostly to spare the families unnecessary anguish, details are not released about unconfirmed theories.


Yes, like everyone here - I really want to know what happened to the plane. And during the report phase, I'm sure I will learn a lot of details. But now it too early to be demanding those.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: PanAm1971
Posted 2014-03-12 14:33:02 and read 75351 times.

Not to be dramatic... but it should be pointed out the waters in this area are fairly warm. During WWII people were known to survive ridiculous amounts of time waiting for rescue. It may be possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-12 14:34:16 and read 75288 times.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 256):

Yes, a 60' sqaure object is huge ... be interested in others' views whether there is any single piece of a 777 matching this. Or is it a mass of junk, or a container off a shp? And if it is, then the whole Strait of Malacca effort was a complete waste of effot ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:36:10 and read 74996 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 267):
Frankly France, the UK, Finland nor the US could do much better in coordinating such a multi-national effort.

How did France and Brazil do in the AF447 search?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 14:37:55 and read 75385 times.

The US intel almost certainly has similar satellite photos and never released them. China revealed more than they wanted by releasing these, mostly that they are getting greater real time coverage than people think. Just shows the degree of domestic public pressure. But now a precedent has been set and they will face pressure to use their state security assets for other non-military functions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:38:13 and read 75059 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 269):
And if it is, then the whole Strait of Malacca effort was a complete waste of effot ...

The images are not of the Malacca Strait.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-12 14:40:33 and read 75178 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 265):

If the accident was so "benign" so that people were able to survive - and the plane was able to ditch in more or less one piece - then the crew should have had ample time to broadcast a Mayday over VHF or HF.

Or they were too distracted for any reason, but then it should be even more remarkable that they managed a +/- successful ditching.

But this is, again, some kind of speculation.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2014-03-12 14:41:47 and read 75136 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 261):
Why do you think they are single pieces?

Because they are being described that way. The largest of the three pieces is said to be 22m x 24m (72ft x 79ft). Try matching that up to a 777-200ER platform drawing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:44:02 and read 74925 times.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 274):
The largest of the three pieces is said to be 22m x 24m (72ft x 79ft). Try matching that up to a 777-200ER platform drawing.

I can't match that up with anything -- airplane or not -- as a single piece.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 14:46:24 and read 74802 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 273):
If the accident was so "benign" so that people were able to survive - and the plane was able to ditch in more or less one piece - then the crew should have had ample time to broadcast a Mayday over VHF or HF.

If the electrical killed the transponder and communication but left fly by wire? Just a thought?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 14:47:38 and read 75707 times.

This is a bit crazy, but the fuselage could have bent outwards on impact. The 772 has a diameter of 6.19m, which would give it a circumference of about 19.5m. This truly is stretching it but... you know, what else that big would be floating in the ocean within glide of their last known point of contact?

I guess I just really hope this is the plane, so families can stop stressing themselves to death and start their process, and the investigation can get underway.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: DUSdude
Posted 2014-03-12 14:47:44 and read 76215 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 202):
True but someone a zillion threads ago said the MH plane has TWO antenna on the sides rather than the usual one on the roof which is the subject of the AD. I have no idea if the cutout for a side antenna is any less structurally a potential problem or more than one on the roof. But if the underlying structure is the same maybe the MH plane has even more risk! .

" (Reuters) - Boeing Co on Wednesday said the missing 777 Malaysia Airlines jetliner was not subject to a new U.S. safety directive that ordered additional inspections for cracking and corrosion on certain 777 planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration last week ordered additional, repeated inspections of certain Boeing 777 aircraft, warning that corrosion and cracking could lead to rapid decompression and damage to the structure of the aircraft.

The Federal Aviation Administration told airlines to inspect U.S. registered aircraft for cracking, corrosion and potential repairs after receiving a report about a 16-inch crack in the fuselage skin underneath an adapter for the airplane's satellite communications antenna.

true Boeing said it worked closely with the FAA to monitor the fleet for potential safety issues and take appropriate actions. But it said the 777-200ER Malaysia Airlines aircraft did not have that antenna installed and was not subject to the FAA order."

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...airplane-faa-idUSBREA2B1YN20140312

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 14:49:09 and read 75993 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 270):
How did France and Brazil do in the AF447 search?

Much better. They found confirmed floating debris with 2 or 3 days close to last known point of contact. After that it was pretty much trying to figure out where the rest of the wreckage & the black boxes were in the depths below over the next 2 years. In this case there is absolutely no debris so far so nobody has a clue where exactly the aircraft went down.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-12 14:50:22 and read 75695 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 270):
How did France and Brazil do in the AF447 search?

Once an alert had been declared that the plane was missing - Brazil was able to get a C-130 over the last contact location that same day before dark. They found floating debris.

France was unable to get an aircraft to the location that day, but did get some assets out the next day.

Having the search 'haystack' pinned down to a relatively small area - Brazilian and French ships were on-site within 3 days and started to recover debris.

There was a major political battle over who would take custody of the debris, with Brazil winning most of the argument, though the debris were eventually turned over to BEA in France as the lead investigative agency. There was criticism that the 'sloppy' Brazilian recovery techiques damaged some of the debris - most notable the vertical stabilizer.

There was another major battle over custody of the bodies recovered. Since almost all were recovered by Brazilian ships - the French were unable to gain access to the bodies until Brazil released them to the families.

Some in France were critical of the autopsy of the Captain of the aircraft as not being thorough and his remains not preserved well enough to allow a competent examination when returned to France.

Senegal and Cape Verde refused to acknowledge any responsibility to issue an alert about a missing aircraft because AF447 had never made contact with Cape Verde Oceanic.

(As contrast to this case - apparently Vietnam Oceanic raised the alarm early when they did not get the expected contact with MH370 and could not obtain a response to their calls. Malaysia and Vietnam were quickly discussing the aircraft, and an alert issued quickly.)

One nation, I forget which, got upset at the Spanish ATC supervisor who finally said "To heck with procedure and jurisdiction - I will issue a missing aircraft alert" for exceeding his authority for an aircraft not located in his operational control area. This bickering over who is responsible wasted over two hours after everyone along the possible flight path knew the plane had not made contact with anyone since leaving Brazilian Oceanic.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-12 14:52:25 and read 75391 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 272):
The images are not of the Malacca Strait.

Erm that was my point.

Anyone have data on currents from the last know position to where these items are observed, noting that the satellite images are from within 24 hrs after the last reported position (9 Mar I beleive)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-12 14:52:47 and read 75477 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 273):
If the accident was so "benign" so that people were able to survive - and the plane was able to ditch in more or less one piece - then the crew should have had ample time to broadcast a Mayday over VHF or HF.

Not to mention a portable ELT in one of the life rafts.

FAR 25.1415 Ditching Equipment (Overwater Requirements. Also see FAR 121.339)
(d) "There must be an approved survival type emergency locator transmitter for use in one life raft."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-12 14:56:12 and read 75356 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 277):
you know, what else that big would be floating in the ocean within glide of their last known point of contact?

Probably lots of things. Just because you or I cannot think of something means it's the 777 that somehow unraveled or whatever. It's an argument from ignorance (not saying you're ignorant, that's just the name of the fallacy)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: steve7e7
Posted 2014-03-12 14:56:15 and read 75674 times.

The satellite images were reportedly taken on Sunday, if the Chinese were at all convinced they were of the missing 777 then wouldn't they have released them earlier?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 14:58:05 and read 75376 times.

Quoting steve7e7 (Reply 284):
if the Chinese were at all convinced they were of the missing 777 then wouldn't they have released them earlier?

As has been mentioned above, combing through satellite images to find little dots on them takes some time.

[Edited 2014-03-12 14:58:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: marosbts
Posted 2014-03-12 14:58:43 and read 75245 times.

Quoting steve7e7 (Reply 284):
The satellite images were reportedly taken on Sunday, if the Chinese were at all convinced they were of the missing 777 then wouldn't they have released them earlier?

Most likely because it takes some time to review those images?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 14:59:53 and read 75234 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 282):
Not to mention a portable ELT in one of the life rafts.

Those ELTs have to be activated, they are not G-activated.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 15:02:13 and read 75299 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 283):
It's an argument from ignorance (not saying you're ignorant, that's just the name of the fallacy)

Well, we are all literally ignorant right now. There is very little information to go on. :-/

Sunrise is in a little over an hour.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 15:04:12 and read 43525 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 283):
It's an argument from ignorance

They're looking for debris floating on the surface in a general area. The images are of what looks like debris floating on the surface in more or less the general area. The logical fallacy does not apply (no matter what the stuff in the images turns out to be -- if we ever find out).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2014-03-12 15:05:05 and read 43430 times.

Quoting steve7e7 (Reply 284):
The satellite images were reportedly taken on Sunday, if the Chinese were at all convinced they were of the missing 777 then wouldn't they have released them earlier?

Between the time to review those images and the already ongoing search by Malaysian people, perhaps wasn't it at first deemed a priority.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Owleye
Posted 2014-03-12 15:05:53 and read 44025 times.

Source BBC and Telegraaf: maybe an image of the missing jet spotted by Chinese satellite.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/jsp/foto_win...%20mogelijk%20plek%20crash%20MH370

On CNN (video):

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/12/wo...malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html

[Edited 2014-03-12 15:14:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-12 15:06:04 and read 43182 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 288):
Sunrise is in a little over an hour.

I can imagine that planes can already take off in order to fly to the location of the found suspected debris right now in order to save time?

That's something I also wanted to know but can never find somewhere-how is the sar resources used during the day (are boats still active during the night?)
Or is that all secret?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 15:12:39 and read 41624 times.

Quoting 456 (Reply 292):
I can imagine that planes can already take off in order to fly to the location of the found suspected debris right now in order to save time?

That's something I also wanted to know but can never find somewhere-how is the sar resources used during the day (are boats still active during the night?)
Or is that all secret?

Gosh I don't have a link for you, it's many many pages back, but what I read is that the marine SAR is 24/7 but air SAR is sunrise to sunset, approximately 7am to 7pm local (KUL) time. I remember reading some country using aircraft with FLIR at night.

Anyhow, it makes sense. Any kind of "night vision" is going to have a limited field of view compared to being able to see clear to the horizon on a nice sunny day.

[Edited 2014-03-12 15:17:33]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: stasisLAX
Posted 2014-03-12 15:17:31 and read 40875 times.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 256):
If the sizes (approx. 20m x 20m) quoted are accurate, the only 777 configuration parts fitting that description would be the center fuselage with parts of the wing attached. This would argue for a relatively low velocity contact with the sea surface, assuming it is MH370

The dimensions of the objects seem eerily similar to the sizes of containerized shipping. A freighter may have lost some sealed containers which could account for the satellite images as the images certainly seem far too large to be a B777, wreckage or not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-12 15:17:58 and read 40732 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 146):
So... please kindly, throw away any notion that because you get a ringing tone, the phone on the other end is within coverage!

I agree, this phone thing just won't go away, argh....at least the passport thing has gone away, finally.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 147):
SAR is a very tough job and it can take very long time to find a seemingly "obvious" target.

I went through 3000 Tomnod images and found that exhausting, i can just imagine how tough actual SAR is.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 153):
it's about coordinating your messages even from your own government, which they seem incapable of doing.
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 157):
The criticism is about their ability to coordinate such a large international effort, the amount of information they are sharing with their partners, and the lack of information provided to the public.

If the Malaysian authorities had just originally come out one day 1 and said something like, "we have recordings of an unidentified radar blip that crossed over Malaysia and disappeared in the Adaman Sea, we can't be sure it was MH370 because it was traveling slower and was smaller than expected, we're using our short range SAR to check there, and much of the rest of the SAR is in the Gulf where the last known position was".... almost all of the confusion and perceived incompetence wouldn't exist.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 158):
(Still not sure about the story on the "mumbling" response to another airplane's call - that was dismissed as not true as well, right?)

Correct, it was false.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 15:19:59 and read 40321 times.

It is also possible that the Chinese got the dimensions wrong, or they were reported incorrectly. If you look at the photographs, these are not perfect rectangles, the dimensions describe the extents of the rectangle which would enclose them.

Also, they do not look like shipping containers to me personally, but I am not an expert on that.

edit: Also shipping containers are far longer than they are wide, 22x24m would not make sense. ISO containers are about 12.2m long.

[Edited 2014-03-12 15:21:07]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 15:21:05 and read 39757 times.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 294):
The dimensions of the objects seem eerily similar to the sizes of containerized shipping. A freighter may have lost some sealed containers which could account for the satellite images as the images certainly seem far too large to be a B777

I would think a shipping container could fit inside of a 77F.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-12 15:23:13 and read 39241 times.

New thread please MODs

Thank you!!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 15:23:35 and read 39448 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 295):
If the Malaysian authorities had just originally come out one day 1 and said something like, "we have recordings of an unidentified radar blip that crossed over Malaysia and disappeared in the Adaman Sea, we can't be sure it was MH370 because it was traveling slower and was smaller than expected, we're using our short range SAR to check there, and much of the rest of the SAR is in the Gulf where the last known position was".... almost all of the confusion and perceived incompetence wouldn't exist.

Exactly! This is the kind of transparency we expect from modern investigations! It's only fair to keep the friends/family in the loop entirely, as well as the aviation community at large.

Also, hello from YYZ-ish. Nice snow we're getting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: MSY-MSP
Posted 2014-03-12 15:30:38 and read 37645 times.

Was wondering if anyone could convert the coordinates that the Chinese said they saw the debris at with the tomnod map id. This way we could see if they same objects show in both pictures. Since they were taken on the same day.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-12 15:33:01 and read 37455 times.

Quoting Owleye (Reply 291):

Source BBC and Telegraaf: maybe an image of the missing jet spotted by Chinese satellite.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/jsp/foto_win...%20mogelijk%20plek%20crash%20MH370

On CNN (video):

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/12/wo...malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html

[Edited 2014-03-12 15:14:59]

There is Mr. Quest and two other CNN guys, they are looking at the pictures and quote the sizes of the parts, and all 3 are not able to notice that either the dimensions given are false, or its not the plane. What are those people paid for?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: noflies
Posted 2014-03-12 15:37:27 and read 37040 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 295):
If the Malaysian authorities had just originally come out one day 1 and said something like, "we have recordings of an unidentified radar blip that crossed over Malaysia and disappeared in the Adaman Sea, we can't be sure it was MH370 because it was traveling slower and was smaller than expected, we're using our short range SAR to check there, and much of the rest of the SAR is in the Gulf where the last known position was".... almost all of the confusion and perceived incompetence wouldn't exist.

Exactly! Pity that clarity was only revealed yesterday and I don't even think that was the intention. It wasn't directly part of anyone's speech, from what I recall. It was in response to a question, and it seemed reluctantly explained. What I also got from all that was that they were bringing in 'experts' to interpret what they saw. I think that might have been the stumbling block to saving face, and therefore they withheld as much as possible. They don't know what they saw.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: D L X
Posted 2014-03-12 15:38:35 and read 36759 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 144):
There have been reports from Rolls Royce that the accident a/c sent 2 engine status messages - at take off and 20 minutes later. They were unremarkable. So ACARS was operating before the LOS event.

So, this would suggest that whatever happened was all over before the 1:20 mark, correct?

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 279):

Quoting hivue (Reply 270):
How did France and Brazil do in the AF447 search?

Much better. They found confirmed floating debris with 2 or 3 days close to last known point of contact

Didn't they also have reports from other commercial jets spotting fire on the ocean surface to help them out?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Aither
Posted 2014-03-12 15:42:51 and read 35661 times.

Dont they have puctures before ans after saturday ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: acabgd
Posted 2014-03-12 15:43:53 and read 35702 times.

Quote:
Quoting acabgd (Reply 357):

I'm sorry if it came across as rude. I'll quote the rest of your post.

Quoting acabgd (Reply 349):
It is useless in determining the fate or this airliner with what we know now.

We *know* actually incredibly little. Apart from one thing - a 777-200ER is gone.

Can't quote properly as taken from previous thread. Appreciate the full quote and understand your position. Sorry if I was a bit jumpy.

Sad that we're still at the same spot a day later...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 15:44:23 and read 35372 times.

Quoting Aither (Reply 304):

Dont they have puctures before ans after saturday ?

It's not likely that area of the sea would be imaged recently prior to the event.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: mach4
Posted 2014-03-12 15:52:06 and read 34286 times.

Aircraft size relative to reported debris size:

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-12 15:55:31 and read 33605 times.

Benefit of the doubt has to be given to the Chinese at the moment. It would be quite embarrassing for them to release these photos only for them to be sea-junk.

I'm sure they have taken the resolution down quite significantly.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-12 15:59:07 and read 32742 times.

But what could be so big and float? Parts of fuselage and wings wouldn't float, would they??

[Edited 2014-03-12 15:59:42]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-12 16:00:17 and read 32470 times.

I hope for every

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 308):
Benefit of the doubt has to be given to the Chinese at the moment. It would be quite embarrassing for them to release these photos only for them to be sea-junk.

From what I just heard on CNN, the Malaysians haven't even SEEN the pictures, so if it does turn out to be the wreckage, it's going to be the Malaysians who are going to be embarrassed!

On an unrelated note, I've just noticed that this topic has surpassed all production threads with regard to the number of combined posts. But considering how important of an event it is, I'm not surprised. I just hope we find the wreckage before we get to part 50!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-12 16:02:46 and read 31952 times.

Did anyone else catch that on Erin Burnett's CNN intro: "crash sh i te!

Ha ha.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-12 16:03:06 and read 32126 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 310):

From what I just heard on CNN, the Malaysians haven't even SEEN the pictures

The Guardian reports the same thing:

Quote:
Publication of the images has raised the already-strained tensions between
the Chinese and Malaysian authorities. Two thirds of the passengers on flight MH370
were from China, and the authorities in Beijing have made it clear that they have deep
concerns about how the Malaysians have conducted the search. Malaysian civil aviation
director general Abdul Rahman told CNN his agency had not seen the images as of 6am
local time Thursday.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...tes#block-5320e415e4b001fc58715766

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-12 16:03:39 and read 31930 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 308):
Benefit of the doubt has to be given to the Chinese at the moment. It would be quite embarrassing for them to release these photos only for them to be sea-junk.

They see something which may be debris, it may even be artifact, or not 777 debris and just flotsam. At this point all agencies should be doing this, if it doesn't turn out to be debris from an airplane its nothing to be embarrased about.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: airbazar
Posted 2014-03-12 16:03:43 and read 31827 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 308):
Benefit of the doubt has to be given to the Chinese at the moment. It would be quite embarrassing for them to release these photos only for them to be sea-junk.

Why? No one else has done any better. At this point any thing is worth a closer inspection.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-12 16:05:25 and read 31632 times.

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 312):

Quoting rj777 (Reply 310):

From what I just heard on CNN, the Malaysians haven't even SEEN the pictures

The Guardian reports the same thing:

Unbelievable. So they havent even seen the pictures, and thus nobody checked out the area for the debris?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-12 16:06:57 and read 31165 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 308):
Benefit of the doubt has to be given to the Chinese at the moment.

I would not be surprised when china is sending their own planes to this spot as well to check for these parts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2014-03-12 16:11:41 and read 30276 times.

I believe we have sunlight at the location by now. Lets hope for some good news

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: vicentezc
Posted 2014-03-12 16:12:04 and read 30242 times.

I have been following the forum for a very long time and finally decided to post.

While searching in Tomnod for anything that could help, I came across some images that intrigued me.
I have noticed several objects that don't look natural in a widespread area, e.g.:
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/18550
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/16740
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/14473
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/16378
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/15011

However, the images are quite dark so I cannot say if those are boats/ships.
In the vicinity, you can clearly see two ships as a comparison:
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/18176

Quoting kmot (Reply 245):
If you replace "challenge" with "api" in the address bar, Tomnod gives you an error message with the coordinates.

Using kmot's technique to get the coordinates, the area is located around 7.57563N 103.232585E

Last known position of the plane was 6°55'15.0"N 103°34'43.0"E

IIRC, someone talked about a turn heading 330° after this position.
When you connect the two dots in Google earth, they are 45 NM apart, heading 332°.

Any thoughts?

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:00:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 16:12:49 and read 30124 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 315):
Unbelievable. So they havent even seen the pictures, and thus nobody checked out the area for the debris?

These were only made public about 5 hours ago, sunrise is only about now, so no one would have really had a chance anyway. Also China probably wants to be first, especially if they are confident it is the wreckage, so I'm sure their ships and aircraft are en-route.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-12 16:21:59 and read 28509 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 319):
These were only made public about 5 hours ago, sunrise is only about now, so no one would have really had a chance anyway

But being clueless about the pictures after they were made public hours ago is what surprise me.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 319):
Also China probably wants to be first, especially if they are confident it is the wreckage, so I'm sure their ships and aircraft are en-route.

Totally understandable with so many Chinese citizens on the flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 16:24:21 and read 27759 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 320):
But being clueless about the pictures after they were made public hours ago is what surprise me.

It's possible that whoever is working the overnight shift at their "crisis headquarters" or wherever they set up shop for the office work has seen them, but that the talking head roused from sleep to talk to media has not yet been briefed. It seems they are a little less... organized than you'd expect.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: UALWN
Posted 2014-03-12 16:26:23 and read 27473 times.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 133):
Civil Air Patrol finds downed planes in the US all the time

And sometimes they don't. Steve Fossett's plane disappeared on September 3, 2007. The Civil Air Patrol searched for it for a month and couldn't find it. The search was called off on October 2, 2007. The plane was finally found one year later, on September 29, 2008, by a hiker. And that happened in California, the most populous state in the US. Should then we all conclude that the Civil Air Patrol, and the US in general, are totally incompetent when it comes to finding downed planes?Or should we just decide it was very hard to find, in a remote mountain area (yet 5 miles away from a ski resort!)? Then why is it that so many people here are assuming that the Malaysian authorities are inept for not finding what actually may very well not be there?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-12 16:27:48 and read 27356 times.

I'm not surprised that anyone on the Malaysian side isn't aware of it. On the surface, they have seemed helpless, if not clueless about where their plane went.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: noflies
Posted 2014-03-12 16:27:55 and read 27363 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 320):
But being clueless about the pictures after they were made public hours ago is what surprise me.

Perhaps it's looking like the Chinese are trying to be more transparent and therefore handling things better?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: awthompson
Posted 2014-03-12 16:29:43 and read 27205 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 277):

This is a bit crazy, but the fuselage could have bent outwards on impact. The 772 has a diameter of 6.19m, which would give it a circumference of about 19.5m. This truly is stretching it but... you know, what else that big would be floating in the ocean within glide of their last known point of contact?
Quoting s5daw (Reply 309):
But what could be so big and float? Parts of fuselage and wings wouldn't float, would they??

Exactly, there are no pieces which could come from a Boeing 777 of that size which would float. The only possibility as someone has suggested is three or so escape slides/rafts huddled together.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: horstroad
Posted 2014-03-12 16:32:12 and read 26364 times.

Quoting mach4 (Reply 307):
Aircraft size relative to reported debris size:


http://picload.org/image/laoilop/malaysia_b772_9m.jpg


edit: it's not necessarily to scale, I was just comparing the shape

[Edited 2014-03-12 16:34:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 16:34:59 and read 26285 times.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 325):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 277):

This is a bit crazy, but the fuselage could have bent outwards on impact. The 772 has a diameter of 6.19m, which would give it a circumference of about 19.5m. This truly is stretching it but... you know, what else that big would be floating in the ocean within glide of their last known point of contact?
Quoting s5daw (Reply 309):
But what could be so big and float? Parts of fuselage and wings wouldn't float, would they??

Exactly, there are no pieces which could come from a Boeing 777 of that size which would float. The only possibility as someone has suggested is three or so escape slides/rafts huddled together.

If so, and if there are still survivors after all of this time, I'm sure they will be wondering when somebody is coming to rescue them...

Without food or water and being exposed to the elements, how long would the average person be able to survive out there?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: markalot
Posted 2014-03-12 16:35:25 and read 26515 times.

The Malaysia bashing is getting really really old. They are frustrated they haven't found the plane, along with everyone else. They are not as media savvy as some of the western organizations are, but that does not make then incompetent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-12 16:37:58 and read 26054 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 115):
Normally the ACARS would not report anything if nothing was going wrong. Nothing being reported would tend to support the idea that whatever happened happened quickly.
Quoting Stretch (Reply 323):


Yeah, ACARS is for maintenance.

I'm not surprised that anyone on the Malaysian side isn't aware of it. On the surface, they have seemed helpless, if not clueless about where their plane went.

Yeah I have to say, the number of mistakes and flubs they have made has made me question everything coming out of the Malay government. They referred to one of the passengers as Black who was actually Iranian and white. The radar contact that said the plane was turning is also questionable now if the chinese located the wreck.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 16:38:12 and read 25719 times.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 326):
edit: it's not necessarily to scale, I was just comparing the shape

The span of the tail is 21.5m, so you weren't really that far off on the scale.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-12 16:38:20 and read 25668 times.

What I don't understand is why there have been so many delays in communicating across the different teams. If it indeed turns out that these images were noted on Sunday but only released today, then, whatever the rationale, it is problematic.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 16:39:45 and read 25789 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 327):
Without food or water and being exposed to the elements, how long would the average person be able to survive out there?

Without water? They would likely have all perished by now. With water, without food? Healthy people can last over a month. Gandhi did it for nearly a month in his 70s.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: OTF
Posted 2014-03-12 16:39:45 and read 25867 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 327):
Without food or water and being exposed to the elements, how long would the average person be able to survive out there?

I think the average is about 3-5 days without water & 5-8 weeks without food.

IF, and that's a big if there are people out there on a life raft the next 24 hours would be crucial due to dehydration really setting in.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16
Username: 777ER
Posted 2014-03-12 16:40:03 and read 27128 times.

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/