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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777ER
Posted 2014-03-12 16:34:57 and read 65772 times.

Due to length part 16 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 17.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome.


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**** Please do not repeat questions and scenarios that were covered and discussed in previous threads and which do not contribute in a constructive manner towards the real topic any longer. ****

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Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 16:44:28 and read 65445 times.

Quoting AT (Reply 331):
If it indeed turns out that these images were noted on Sunday but only released today, then, whatever the rationale, it is problematic.

As mentioned before, China deployed any imaging sats (I think they said 10) they had that could reach an orbit that could image this area, and they imaged the entire area on Mar 9. Since then they have presumably been looking at every single image, possibly (and hopefully, for their sake) aided by software that detects anomalies. Still a lot of human effort to reject pictures of clouds and such.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 16:44:47 and read 65433 times.

With a new sunrise and 12 or so hours of daylight let's hope that something is found today or that they can at least track down / confirm what that image was...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 16:47:12 and read 65347 times.

Alright, EVERYONE needs to stop using Tomnod.

I now see why they don't publish their coordinates. I have extracted at random a sampling of about 2,800 of the estimated 31,000 maps on Tomnod challenge (thanks to Kmot showing the API link. As you can see from the link below plotting them on Google Maps, the sampling on Tomnod is SOOOOOOOOOOO unbelievably small. Keep in mind when you see the map at first, you think it is just one dot. That is actually 3000 sampling points. Zoom in and you'll see what I am talking about.

I am going to extract more points if their servers don't catch on and limit it. But, sadly, a waste of time people.

http://borgmann.me/a/mh370

PS the X on the map shows where the Chinese satellite images are located.

[Edited 2014-03-12 16:59:11]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2014-03-12 16:49:03 and read 64980 times.

What the searchers need is something that can take high-resolution wide angle pictures in a certain area over a long period of time. Maybe it's time to deploy the RQ-4 Global Hawk flying at 60,000 feet and use that UAV's high-resolution cameras to find the remains of this 777.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-12 16:51:10 and read 64708 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 2):
or that they can at least track down / confirm what that image was...

That should be their main focus until they know what it is.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 16:50:44 and read 64545 times.

Top of the morning to you a.nutters!

Here is rcair1's excellent summary from thread 16.

Sanity check.
I'm going to try to list what we know, not what we think - we being the public. And sadly it is very short.

- The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
- The last comms were a normal handoff from Malaysia to Vietnam control.
- It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.
- The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.
- There is some reports of a descent and turn - based on primary radar.
- But there is confusion about the veracity of that.
- There is some confusion (in the press) about if the descent was 3000ft or to 3000ft
- There was a primary radar return tracked west over the Malacca straits.
- Since it is primarily - a reflection - we do not know that it is the accident a/c.
- We do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns.
- We have no ELT signal detected.

Based on this information - authorities are searching 2 areas - near the planned route and in the Malacca straight.
- Frankly - this is quite reasonable. You search where you have evidence the a/c may be.

There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.
- We have no data to support any of them.
- The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the 'government is hiding it' aspects
- It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.

We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.
- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.

There are lots of people talking about "mobile phones".
- We know that if any mobile phones were connected to the tower - we would have a location and would search there.
- We don't have any reports or evidence of that - so I conclude that it is not viable to consider.

We have had a lot of "false" sightings
- This is common and we need to investigate the credible ones. Most will be false.

In summary
We KNOW 3 things.
- The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
- There is some evidence that it traveled west. But that evidence is not conclusive or sure.
- We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

That is all.


Answers to previous thread:

Captainx: Would the new FAA AD on the depressuriztion/break-up risk on the 777 cause loss of the transponder and comm antennas? One expert suggest that if the decomp event occurred and the pilots changed course prior to donning their masks then both pilots would likely pass out quickly and the plane would fly on the new course until it ran out of fuel. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...rrosion-problem-boeing-777s-n50591
Answer: We've been over this. That AD does not apply to this particular plane since it did/does not have that antenna.

747megatop: What equipment does it take to detect the black box signals and what is the range of these signals? Answer: According to this link http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html they ping on acoustic 38.5 kHz (an audio signal) and a range of 2-3km.

747megatop: The biggest question/issue would be who would pay for all this!? To me it seems to be in the best interest of everyone to find out what happened and rule out any sinister plot. Answer: The insurance companies and Boeing have a vested interest in the investigation. Just throwing a number out there, US$100m operation cost sounds like a lot but if you think about it that is cheaper than a brand new 777.

planesmart: I think maybe the Malaysian authorities are being a little mischevious with their reporting. The aircraft was ACARS capable, but I'm guessing the airline does not use the facility. Answer: This has been covered. Please skim and search previous threads.

nupogodi: Welcome to the thread. Scroll up. Answer:         

hivue: How did France and Brazil do in the AF447 search? Answer: The political situation was a bit different. Far from territorial waters and those countries weren't regularly sniping at each other in ongoing territorial disputes.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 16:54:01 and read 64469 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 5):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 2):
or that they can at least track down / confirm what that image was...

That should be their main focus until they know what it is.

Agreed. With all the uncertainty, the authorities should thoroughly follow such a lead...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 16:54:24 and read 64233 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 3):
the sampling on Tomnod is SOOOOOOOOOOO unbelieveably small. Keep in mind when you see the map at first, you think it is just one dot. That is actually 3000 sampling points. Zoom in and you'll see what I am talking about.

Kinda puts the difficulty of SAR in the sea into perspective, doesn't it?

I think your China Sat location is wrong though - at least, it disagrees with the information and map on Avherald which puts it southeast of the last known secondary contact, and that website is not known for being inaccurate.

[Edited 2014-03-12 16:56:00]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: phantomx18
Posted 2014-03-12 16:55:34 and read 64234 times.

Can anyone comment on the difficulty of creating a computer program to pick up anomalies from these satellite images? Would this be technology that larger governments have (USA, China, etc.) and could be used for something like this, or is this just sci-fi at the moment. I would think that these governments would already have programs to pick up possible troop movements, missile launchers, etc. . .or software that would flag possible objects for further human review.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 16:59:25 and read 63757 times.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 9):

Can anyone comment on the difficulty of creating a computer program to pick up anomalies from these satellite images? Would this be technology that larger governments have (USA, China, etc.) and could be used for something like this, or is this just sci-fi at the moment. I would think that these governments would already have programs to pick up possible troop movements, missile launchers, etc. . .or software that would flag possible objects for further human review.

It is something a computer science student who has taken a class in scientific computing / image processing could do in less than 24 hours.

The sea is blue and there's a lot of it, filter it out. Look for any contrast. There are algorithms that quantify the amount of contrast in an image. Prioritize images for review that have the most contrast. You will get lots of clouds. You will still have to go through all images, but you can at least look at the interesting ones first.

It's trivial. When I worked for an aerospace company in R&D, we did GIS work and we were doing much more complex image processing on RadarSat images with people no more educated than BCS/BMath (although often guided by papers written by serious academics)

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:00:43]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 16:59:52 and read 63737 times.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 9):
I would think that these governments would already have programs to pick up possible troop movements, missile launchers, etc.

Yes, but they may not have algorithms foe picking up floating wreckage.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vicentezc
Posted 2014-03-12 17:00:06 and read 63527 times.

Repost from previous thread as I'd appreciate any input.

While searching in Tomnod for anything that could help, I came across some images that intrigued me.
I have noticed several objects that don't look natural in a widespread area, e.g.:
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/18550
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/16740
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/14473
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/16378
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/15011

However, the images are quite dark so I cannot say if those are boats/ships.
In the vicinity, you can clearly see two ships as a comparison:
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/18176

Using kmot's technique to get the coordinates, the area is located around 7.57563N 103.232585E

Last known position of the plane was 6°55'15.0"N 103°34'43.0"E

IIRC, someone talked about a turn heading 330° after this position.
When you connect the two dots in Google earth, they are 45 NM apart, heading 332°.

http://www.airliners.net/uf/73977/phpyWjpOG.png


Any thoughts?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 17:00:18 and read 63490 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 8):
Kinda puts the difficulty of SAR in the sea into perspective, doesn't it?

It sure does.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 8):
I think your China Sat location is wrong though - at least, it disagrees with the information and map on Avherald which puts it southeast of the last known secondary contact, and that website is not known for being inaccurate.

I'll look into that. It's Google's encoding, but I might have the coordinates wrong.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: tarmacphotos
Posted 2014-03-12 17:00:59 and read 63487 times.

Could a JSTARS pick up surface debris on water? It seems one of those could cover a huge area and stay on station for a long time as it is refuelable.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 17:03:34 and read 63228 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 13):
I'll look into that. It's Google's encoding, but I might have the coordinates wrong.

You were right. According to CNN the coordinates are "6.7, 105.63", and for some reason I had "8.6276892, 112.4058292" - I have fixed the map to reflect the right spot. Good spot and thank you.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: desh
Posted 2014-03-12 17:04:27 and read 62967 times.

"
The Malaysia bashing is getting really really old. They are frustrated they haven't found the plane, along with everyone else. They are not as media savvy as some of the western organizations are, but that does not make then incompetent.
"

- markalot

Thank you and well said. (sorry this is just before the previous thread was closed)

I am sure they are under a lot of pressure - domestically and internationally - and there are people who are trying their best to find the plane with the technology they have. Yes they have had some flubs and they could have done a better job of communicating and managing the message, but that is , hopefully, a lesson learnt on their part.

Hoping we can move to the next phase of the investigation to find out what actually happened to the poor souls onboard.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2014-03-12 17:08:25 and read 62511 times.

Until the aircraft is located and the Voice and Data Recorders are retrieved, everything is pure speculation. Even though their was wreckage that was found floating of the Air France A330 in the Atlantic Ocean within about five days, it took about two years to recover the recorders and determine what caused the aircraft's demise. Until that happens with this tragic accident, everything is pure speculation and heresy. Only then will we know what really happened and this tragedy can be put to rest and MAYBE some corrections can be made to help prevent a repeat of this accident.   

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:16:09]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 17:09:02 and read 62483 times.

To give an example of some things we were able to do by processing RadarSat images, we could image farmland and then accurately predict crop yield year-over-year. This is a service you can purchase.

Finding something floating in a sea of blue is literally trivial, from a computer science perspective. You still need humans to look through all the images in descending order of "interestingness".

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: stasisLAX
Posted 2014-03-12 17:09:31 and read 62502 times.

But what could be so big and float? Parts of fuselage and wings that large wouldn't float, would they??

No, pieces of the aircraft the size of the componets of the Chinese satellite photo would not float. However, many pieces
of individual wreckage could gather together in the ocean currents into floating clumps. Also, I believe that the Chinese have MUCH
MUCH higher resolution photos and are not releasing the photos due to military secrecy reasons.

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:10:43]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: lucaspithan
Posted 2014-03-12 17:12:22 and read 61956 times.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
But what could be so big and float? Parts of fuselage and wings that large wouldn't float, would they??

In the AF447 the tail was floating. I think could be something of the same size.

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:14:56]

Big version: Width: 1842 Height: 1300 File size: 462kb
Big version: Width: 1842 Height: 1300 File size: 462kb


[Edited 2014-03-12 17:15:45]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 17:16:17 and read 61411 times.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
But what could be so big and float? Parts of fuselage and wings that large wouldn't float, would they??

It depends on whether it has taken on water. From a comment about eight threads ago, the AF447 tail had trapped air pockets so it stayed afloat. If the tanks are still sealed, fuel is less dense than water so would contribute to buoyancy.

Aircraft structure is relatively light. Huge ships made of steel float so part of an airplane is not a problem per se.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-12 17:15:57 and read 61511 times.

A New Zealand oil rig worker claims to have seen a burning aircraft. He says he has tried to contact authorities but does not know if they received his email. Included is a copy.

“The general position of the observation was perpendicular/southwest of the normal flight paths.”



[Edited 2014-03-12 17:17:50]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 17:17:25 and read 61473 times.

In the previous thread, the following image was posted:

http://picload.org/image/laoilop/malaysia_b772_9m.jpg

He said it was not to scale, but the tail span of the 772 is 21.5m which is almost a perfect fit.

Remember that the dimensions are the minimal bounding box that would enclose the object. Therefore, a piece of the fuselage with the tail attached could be crazy big by those metrics, even though realistically most of that bounding box would be negative space.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-12 17:18:57 and read 61197 times.

I can't believe AWST ran an article with this headline

MH370 Could Be Worst Boeing 777 Accident

The loss of a Boeing 777-200ER operated by Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH370 could be the worst air accident involving the Boeing twin-aisle since the type entered service in 1995.


http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_03_08_2014_p0-670478.xml

No kidding! I hate it when people say the most self obvious things.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 17:19:04 and read 63399 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 22):
A New Zealand oil rig worker claims to have seen a burning aircraft.

Respectfully, please read the thread first, at least the posts made on the date of your contribution. This has been posted. They deployed resources to the area and found nothing, last I heard, but hopefully will look further.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 17:19:53 and read 63184 times.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 9):
Can anyone comment on the difficulty of creating a computer program to pick up anomalies from these satellite images?

It is easy to find changes on land thru software but nearly impossible to compare water bodies. Every single scan of the water surface will result in total different digital image, based on wind speed and direction the surface looks different, same with angle and intensity of sunlight. Human eye can correlate quickly to a previous image but computer program which is dependent on pixel comparison will be burdened by the amount of data change. It will process forever. Hope this helps.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-12 17:23:34 and read 64913 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 25):

I've been reading since page 1, it's quite difficult to keep up with these threads. There is bound to be duplicate info. Thanks for the note.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 17:25:06 and read 64776 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 26):
It is easy to find changes on land thru software but nearly impossible to compare water bodies. Every single scan of the water surface will result in total different digital image, based on wind speed and direction the surface looks different, same with angle and intensity of sunlight. Human eye can correlate quickly to a previous image but computer program which is dependent on pixel comparison will be burdened by the amount of data change. It will process forever. Hope this helps.

This is nowhere near correct. I have literally worked on automated processing of satellite images. I'm only a private pilot, so I'm not the authority on airliners and their systems, but I do know this. Looking for "interesting things" in the sea is trivial and anyone could do it.

To greatly simplify the problem, think of a chroma key like a green screen used on movie sets. It's the same idea, just more complex.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 17:27:35 and read 64213 times.

You may naturally ask - well, why isn't this technology used to locate other crashes?

1) It is. Just that traditional SAR gets there first.

2) There's a lot of crap in the sea. Visible-range images are going to have lots of clouds. There's a lot of mess to go through.

It may simplify the effort by de-prioritizing images full of nothing, but while the algorithms are trivial, the process is not.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-12 17:28:51 and read 64099 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 22):
A New Zealand oil rig worker claims to have seen a burning aircraft.

The problem with is is that his rig is too far away from where the Chinese object is.
His rig is some 350km north-east of the place where the Chinese object is and he claimed
that the plane he saw was more or less 40-50km due west from his potion.

So it does not match with the coordinates the Chinese are claiming their photos are from.

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:30:02]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 17:29:14 and read 63981 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 28):
This is nowhere near correct. I have literally worked on automated processing of satellite images. I'm only a private pilot, so I'm not the authority on airliners and their systems, but I do know this. Looking for "interesting things" in the sea is trivial and anyone could do it.

If it is that simple, DigitalGlobe/Tomnod wouldn't be crowd sourcing this effort. There are hundreds of companies and universities with image processing resources. Comparing land based images is totally different from comparing water bodies.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 17:33:29 and read 63258 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 31):
If it is that simple, DigitalGlobe/Tomnod wouldn't be crowd sourcing this effort. There are hundreds of companies and universities with image processing resources. Comparing land based images is totally different from comparing water bodies.

You don't understand the problem I am describing. We are not comparing two images against each other. This portion of the sea probably hasn't been imaged in the visible range in weeks if not months before this event. What we are talking about is finding *possible interesting anomalies* when we are *expecting* an open sea, e.g. we image it once and then prioritize the most interesting images for human review.

You are going to get clouds, and ships, and waves that hit the sun just right. But you're going to de-prioritize the 90% of images of nothing. That is the idea. This is what I am describing.

I couldn't tell you what Tomnod is doing. Hip startups are not known for their technical acumen, to be honest.

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:34:47]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-12 17:36:06 and read 62541 times.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
MUCH
MUCH higher resolution photos and are not releasing the photos due to military secrecy reasons.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I doubt they'd release what they are really looking at. They make all the digital cameras now so its not like the infrastructure doesn't exist.

Quoting tarmacphotos (Reply 14):

Could a JSTARS pick up surface debris on water? It seems one of those could cover a huge area and stay on station for a long time as it is refuelable.

Yes, it can be fine tuned as well. You're looking for a large chunk of metal but not one moving more than 1-2 knots. That rules out most ships. Even if they deployed now though its probably too late as the large bits might have sunk.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-12 17:38:00 and read 62488 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
hivue: How did France and Brazil do in the AF447 search? Answer: The political situation was a bit different. Far from territorial waters and those countries weren't regularly sniping at each other in ongoing territorial disputes.

And yet there were many who thought the search was being handled so badly that they suspected the French were trying not to find it in order to protect Airbus. There were complaints about a lack of transparency and that they were obviously hiding information. When comparing the search for MH370 to the search for AF447 there seems to be a certain amount of selective memory in evidence.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-12 17:38:01 and read 62512 times.

From the previous thread:

Quote:
Quoting stuyyz (Reply 295):
If the Malaysian authorities had just originally come out one day 1 and said something like, "we have recordings of an unidentified radar blip that crossed over Malaysia and disappeared in the Adaman Sea, we can't be sure it was MH370 because it was traveling slower and was smaller than expected, we're using our short range SAR to check there, and much of the rest of the SAR is in the Gulf where the last known position was".... almost all of the confusion and perceived incompetence wouldn't exist.


Exactly! This is the kind of transparency we expect from modern investigations! It's only fair to keep the friends/family in the loop entirely, as well as the aviation community at large.

What makes you think Malaysian authorities had any idea on day 1 that they had a recording of an unidentified possible aircraft primary radar contact?

Standard procedure in cases of missing aircraft, and many types of aircraft incidents/ accidents - is to pull ALL the radar data 'tapes' (likely hard drive data today) - and put humans reviewing the data on the highest possible resolution.

That will mean that a lot of ground clutter, electrical blips, biologicals and other false returns will be shown. But good analysts with time can determine if there are any possible aircraft primary returns.

Four days to review all the data from a nation like Malaysia is about the right amount of time it takes.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 1):
Since then they have presumably been looking at every single image, possibly (and hopefully, for their sake) aided by software that detects anomalies. Still a lot of human effort to reject pictures of clouds and such.

Assuming the image released size is approx. 200 M square - that results in 25 images to each square KM. If the search area is approx. 200 km - 40,000 square km - so there are at least ONE MILLION images to be examined. Finding something this fast is an amazing bit of work.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 4):
What the searchers need is something that can take high-resolution wide angle pictures in a certain area over a long period of time. Maybe it's time to deploy the RQ-4 Global Hawk flying at 60,000 feet and use that UAV's high-resolution cameras to find the remains of this 777.

You still end up with several hundred thousand images which have to be reviewed. Even with the best software to eliminate 'blank' frames it is going to be several tens of thousands of images which have to be reviewed by humans.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: winstonlegthigh
Posted 2014-03-12 17:38:23 and read 62264 times.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to possibly take the email address of the sender and recipient out of the image a few posts above?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-12 17:38:37 and read 62154 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 33):
They make all the digital cameras now so its not like the infrastructure doesn't exist.

But the high end chips etc still come from US, Japan, Taiwan etc and your garden variety commercial chips don't hold up well out there in space!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 17:38:42 and read 62143 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 27):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 25):

I've been reading since page 1, it's quite difficult to keep up with these threads. There is bound to be duplicate info. Thanks for the note.

I agree it is very hard. No worries. However for a specific item you can do a "ctrl-f" text search.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 17:41:33 and read 62129 times.

I added the location of the oil rig, last location of MH370, and even though the airport doesn't have much effect, the airport.

Since I know it's hard to read everything, if you missed the post above, the red-dots are an extrapolation of all the Tomnod map points (relatively small).

http://borgmann.me/a/mh370/

If you can think of any other points to add, let me know.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 9VSIO
Posted 2014-03-12 17:44:24 and read 61074 times.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 17):
heresy

I think you mean hearsay - there's no one blaspheming here!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-12 17:47:10 and read 61046 times.

The problem I have with the Chinese sat images is that they are showing three large chunks of whatever. Even if the aircraft made it relatively intact onto the water, there surely must be a lot of small debris, freight and equipment floating around and not just three large pieces of the aircraft.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: PHX787
Posted 2014-03-12 17:47:54 and read 61025 times.

This probably was posted a few times but I'll say it again for emphasis- the CNN iReport from someone using a satallite that spotted what appears to be a fuselage has no brevity or no actual definitive proof that it is MH370, so unless it is actually found by authorities, that is not MH370.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: airplane
Posted 2014-03-12 17:48:02 and read 60468 times.

I know the search for this aircraft has been very poor and puts Malaysian authorities in an under qualified situation. But since this is a Boeing, is NTSB on this too ?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 17:47:19 and read 60629 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 34):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
hivue: How did France and Brazil do in the AF447 search? Answer: The political situation was a bit different. Far from territorial waters and those countries weren't regularly sniping at each other in ongoing territorial disputes.

And yet there were many who thought the search was being handled so badly that they suspected the French were trying not to find it in order to protect Airbus. There were complaints about a lack of transparency and that they were obviously hiding information. When comparing the search for MH370 to the search for AF447 there seems to be a certain amount of selective memory in evidence.

Surely not! 
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 35):
What makes you think Malaysian authorities had any idea on day 1 that they had a recording of an unidentified possible aircraft primary radar contact?

Standard procedure in cases of missing aircraft, and many types of aircraft incidents/ accidents - is to pull ALL the radar data 'tapes' (likely hard drive data today) - and put humans reviewing the data on the highest possible resolution.

That will mean that a lot of ground clutter, electrical blips, biologicals and other false returns will be shown. But good analysts with time can determine if there are any possible aircraft primary returns.

Four days to review all the data from a nation like Malaysia is about the right amount of time it takes.

Indeed. Even in this day and age of instant everything, very little is actually instant.

Quoting winstonlegthigh (Reply 36):

Wouldn't it be a good idea to possibly take the email address of the sender and recipient out of the image a few posts above?

I had the same thought exactly! Then again I think that cat's out of the bag. His inbox is probably imploding right now.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-12 17:49:09 and read 60468 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 39):

Thanks, this does add some useful perspective. That sat photo seems quite a stretch south of the flight path.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2014-03-12 17:49:42 and read 60453 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 39):
If you can think of any other points to add, let me know.

Great work - thanks and keep it up.

What about overlaying the ocean currents? That might help too..

1011yyz

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 17:51:04 and read 60115 times.

In case there is still skepticism, here is how I would personally coordinate a satellite-based search effort for floating debris:

1) While our satellites are orbiting and photographing the area, which takes some time, create a simple algorithm that can reliably filter out the sea and rank the overall level of contrast (simple with fourier transforms, divide image into blocks, sort of like how lossy compression works). Use it on "known-good" images like ships, "known-bad" images like open sea, and verify that the results are what we expect. Photoshop a piece of debris into one of the "known-bad" images, or use a picture of other debris if you have access to it, and ensure that the results are what you expect.

2) Run this algorithm on your data set. Assign people to manually review the images in descending order of our "importance metric", i.e. you will have lots of people looking at the most important ones, fewer looking at the next, etc etc. These teams will flag images they think hold something important for further review.

This way, all images will get reviewed, but more people will be looking at the more important ones, so you will go through them much faster. The ones flagged for further review should get more scrutiny. Certainly they will have moved so we don't get another imaging pass.

This way, you examine the entire area but you prioritize the parts that are important. If this process fails, you can obtain a new data set or alter the parameters of your algorithm to be more permissive.

It's really not rocket science; it's computer science. I have no doubt a similar process is how China was able to image such a large area but find large debris within 3 days. You can use computer vision algorithms to approximate the physical size of interesting objects, too, and include that in your "interestingness" metric but again you'll get noise like ships and clouds. If you estimate their size at least you can reject lots of clouds entirely.

Airliners are magic to some people, but not to you guys. Scientific computing is magic to some people, but not to others.

[Edited 2014-03-12 17:53:51]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 9VSIO
Posted 2014-03-12 17:51:55 and read 60368 times.

Quoting winstonlegthigh (Reply 36):
Wouldn't it be a good idea to possibly take the email address of the sender and recipient out of the image a few posts above?

And his passport number!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 17:53:12 and read 59903 times.

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 30):
The problem with is is that his rig is too far away from where the Chinese object is.
His rig is some 350km north-east of the place where the Chinese object is and he claimed
that the plane he saw was more or less 40-50km due west from his potion.

So it does not match with the coordinates the Chinese are claiming their photos are from

I think it still is valid. Yes, it is 350km now. But it's been lost for 4 days. If ocean currents are .9 m/s (or 3.24km per hour) for 4 days would be 311 km. It's at least reasonable what he saw would have been the plane. I am not saying it isn't. But it COULD in theory be.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: bond007
Posted 2014-03-12 17:53:19 and read 59852 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 33):

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
MUCH
MUCH higher resolution photos and are not releasing the photos due to military secrecy reasons.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I doubt they'd release what they are really looking at. They make all the digital cameras now so its not like the infrastructure doesn't exist.

Since there are numerous military satellites in orbit, you can probably estimate the resolution to be many times, if not orders of magnitude better than they make public.

You only need to zoom in on Google Earth and see the best resolution ... then assume twice that resolution, or 10 times that resolution, or....

This is exactly what taxpayer's money is spent on, even after the cold war.

Jimbo

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 17:54:46 and read 59646 times.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 48):
And his passport number!

I noticed that too. Crazy.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 17:57:30 and read 59044 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 42):
This probably was posted a few times but I'll say it again for emphasis- the CNN iReport from someone using a satallite that spotted what appears to be a fuselage has no brevity or no actual definitive proof that it is MH370, so unless it is actually found by authorities, that is not MH370.

Plus if you look at the small field that Tomnod actually is, it is even more improbable.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 46):
What about overlaying the ocean currents? That might help too..

I would love to. I don't know where to find that data.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-12 17:59:40 and read 58800 times.

Oh man, if that is indeed the wreckage, it's completely unconscionable the time they've wasted looking in the Malacca Straits instead of exactly where they should have been looking. If the last location they saw the transponder was IGARI, this is only 100mi or so away, well within the range you'd expect it to be. Instead they've been hunting in the Indian Ocean. Can you imagine the fallout if they find some people survived the crash, only to die because of they weren't rescued in time, ala JAL 123?

While I sincerely hope there's never another accident for Malaysia to investigate, I really hope that if there is, they don't and they promptly call in competent adult supervision. Insane, just insane.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-12 17:59:43 and read 58584 times.

Is there an upcoming pres conference?

I'm dying to hear about what is being done regarding these new Chinese 'crash' images.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: squad55
Posted 2014-03-12 18:00:27 and read 58349 times.

Would a meteoroid be detected in the radar? CNN said there was activity in the area that night. Perhaps the mystery contact was from space?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: lmpinto
Posted 2014-03-12 18:01:30 and read 58267 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 50):
You only need to zoom in on Google Earth and see the best resolution ... then assume twice that resolution, or 10 times that resolution, or....

I believe the high resolution Google Earth imagery is aerial photography, is it not ?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-12 18:02:03 and read 58324 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 41):
The problem I have with the Chinese sat images is that they are showing three large chunks of whatever. Even if the aircraft made it relatively intact onto the water, there surely must be a lot of small debris, freight and equipment floating around and not just three large pieces of the aircraft.

Every piece of floating debris has its own drift rate. Some will move with the water currents, some with the wind, some by a combination of both. 12 hours is plenty of time for light wind blown debris to separates from larger current impacted debris.

We saw that with the AF447 debris.

Also, given the resolution of the images from China - there might be a lot of small debris around the big items - just too small to pick out.


Quoting airplane (Reply 43):
But since this is a Boeing, is NTSB on this too ?

The Boeing, and the NTSB, will be part of the investigation - but not primaries.

As far as the search - the NTSB has nothing to do with searches.

The US Navy and other branches are assisting, and advising the search. The US is likely working at the request of Malaysia - and being tasked to search certain areas by the Malaysian SAR professionals.

The international effort is a bit difficult to coordinate. Vietnam, Thailand, China, Borneo, Indonesia, India and the Philippines will run their own SAR operation in their waters and area of responsibility. They will report their results to Malaysia, but they won't take direction from Malaysia as to when, where and how to search and what assets to use.

Other nations like the United States, Japan, Australia will search international waters - in areas requested by the Malaysian SAR leadership - and given their capabilities of the aircraft and ships they have committed to the effort.

The US will turn over all their results to Malaysia and allow them to make any announcements about specific areas that were searched.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 18:02:15 and read 58020 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 50):
Since there are numerous military satellites in orbit, you can probably estimate the resolution to be many times, if not orders of magnitude better than they make public.

There are not that many of them owned by any one country, I believe (though I have no insider information). Imaging such a large area in one day would require a massive amount of surveillance resources concentrated on one area - possible when you have access to lots of sats, but you wouldn't be able to do it with your limited number of secret ones that make the pretty pictures   Not because you can't afford them, but because there's no reason to have so many in similar orbits.

Unless you're America, I suppose. Who knows about them.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-12 18:05:55 and read 57609 times.

Quoting lmpinto (Reply 56):
I believe the high resolution Google Earth imagery is aerial photography, is it not ?

Yes, though they do buy some danged good satellite imagery.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: ubeema
Posted 2014-03-12 18:07:33 and read 57326 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 51):

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 48):
And his passport number!

I noticed that too. Crazy.

Also he may have done it to confirm his identity in case someone else would have claimed the sighting in his place

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 9VSIO
Posted 2014-03-12 18:09:28 and read 57068 times.

Quoting ubeema (Reply 60):
Also he may have done it to confirm his identity in case someone else would have claimed the sighting in his place

I understand that, but I'm more thinking about the publication of the photograph! The email reveals that the rig worker knows what he is talking about.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 18:08:54 and read 57366 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 57):
The US Navy and other branches are assisting, and advising the search. The US is likely working at the request of Malaysia - and being tasked to search certain areas by the Malaysian SAR professionals.

The international effort is a bit difficult to coordinate. Vietnam, Thailand, China, Borneo, Indonesia, India and the Philippines will run their own SAR operation in their waters and area of responsibility. They will report their results to Malaysia, but they won't take direction from Malaysia as to when, where and how to search and what assets to use.

Other nations like the United States, Japan, Australia will search international waters - in areas requested by the Malaysian SAR leadership - and given their capabilities of the aircraft and ships they have committed to the effort.

The US will turn over all their results to Malaysia and allow them to make any announcements about specific areas that were searched.

Don't forget Singapore. As Zeke pointed out way back, the aircraft actually vanished in the Singapore SSR, which covers large parts of the Gulf of Thailand and the South China Sea.

I'm not an expert but does this not mean Singapore is nominally in charge of coordinating efforts in this area?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: tkukucka
Posted 2014-03-12 18:10:35 and read 57251 times.

Just on cnn
"Malaysian search aircraft en route to area satellite images suggest could be a crash site: Malaysian air force official." -- CNN www.cnn.com

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 18:11:10 and read 56770 times.

Quoting lmpinto (Reply 56):
I believe the high resolution Google Earth imagery is aerial photography, is it not ?

In cities and other high-density areas, yes.

They source whatever they can get, though. You'll find aerial photography in strange places due to this sometimes.

The reality is that space-based visual-spectrum imaging on the civilian side is not as powerful as you might have been led to believe. Resolution is often poor, and high-resolution satellites in the civilian space are deployed to orbits that will maximize profit. They are not cheap.

The Chinese images may be low-resolution because they are hiding military technology, or because they simply didn't have enough high-resolution assets in place in a compatible orbit. You'll notice one of the images is black and white! You could think that this is China trying to throw you off, or you could reasonably assume that this was simply an image from one of the assets they had in the area.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 18:19:10 and read 55716 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 57):
The US Navy and other branches are assisting, and advising the search. The US is likely working at the request of Malaysia - and being tasked to search certain areas by the Malaysian SAR professionals.

Once US Navy gets those coordinates, they will run those by NRO. NRO can quickly pull up their imagery and tell what those are even before someone visits the site. If Malaysia asks US Navy, they will send their assets out even if they know ahead of time.

China claims those objects are floating, most experts here claimed 777 has no large items which can float. AF447 horizontal stabilizer if CRFP that is the reason it was floating.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Capt747Ret
Posted 2014-03-12 18:19:43 and read 55603 times.

Please indulge me in what I’ve been pondering for the last few days. At this stage of the investigation we still have very little data and some of it may seem to either contradict or appear to be implausible.
I’ve thought about a botched hijacking where the perpetrators use an explosive device to blow open the cockpit door. There could have been other means to gain entry, but I’m using this train of thought. A first class passenger going to the restroom up front next to the cockpit door is an easy route to position themselves and the device.
I think many captains would first think that there was an explosive decompression and dawn their oxygen masks.
At this time the FP initiates a high dive. When conducting a high dive it is best to start a shallow turn as the turn also causes an increased loss of altitude. This maneuver would not only show the A/C in a very rapid decent but also a heading change. This all would be normal and expected. It is what we train for.
At that time the hijackers enter the flight deck. They fight with the NFP. During this brief time the hijackers turn off the transponder.
I think it would be right to think that the pax would fight back in any way they can.
This scenario has many possible directions it can take. If it was a hijacking then how many involved? How many going for the flight deck and how many to control the pax. If an explosive device used, did it depressurize the A/C?
Continuing… The hijackers kill or severely injure the flight crew. The hijackers take control of the A/C until the pax, fighting back, take them out. If this occurs then there is no one to fly the plane.
If they did a high dive then the autopilot and autothrottles were probably off as I guess the 777 procedures would be, and the plane was being flown manually. I was trained to turn them off and do it manually. That was true for the DC-8-63, DC-10, B747-100/200.
If the hijackers retained control for a longer period of time then they probably knew how to reengage autopilot and autothrottles. They would want to keep low and under radar coverage and head toward their “destination”.
If it was a 911 type scenario they would head for it. At some point the pax could have taken the plane back.
The real terror of this is that the pax could have regained control but there was no one who knew how to fly or communicate with the outside world for help. The A/C could have been in heading mode with altitude hold until fuel exhaustion.
I have read much of all the threads. Something like this could account for some of the actions and what appear to be some contradictions.
Depending on what really happened the plane could have been in flight for a few minutes or much longer.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-12 18:20:46 and read 55122 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 53):
it's completely unconscionable the time they've wasted looking in the Malacca Straits instead of exactly where they should have been looking.

To what extent has the search off the west coast impacted the search in the Gulf of Thailand? All I've seen is that the search area was "extended" to the Malacca Strait - no mention of pulling resources from the initial search area.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-12 18:21:06 and read 55162 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 57):
Borneo

Not to nitpick, but I think you mean Brunei. Borneo is an island shared by Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brunei.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 57):
The international effort is a bit difficult to coordinate. Vietnam, Thailand, China, Borneo, Indonesia, India and the Philippines will run their own SAR operation in their waters and area of responsibility. They will report their results to Malaysia, but they won't take direction from Malaysia as to when, where and how to search and what assets to use.

And I think herein lies the problem. There should be someone taking the lead on coordinating the 12 countries involved in the search (Japan, New Zealand, and Australia are also helping). I think a big part of why nothing has been found is probably the lack of coordination. Even the Vietnamese seem a bit exasperated at the Malaysians and have called off their SAR efforts.

On a separate note, I am curious to know which airport are the US and Australian P3s, as well as other countries' aircraft using? Does anyone know?

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 18:23:59 and read 54882 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 65):
China claims those objects are floating, most experts here claimed 777 has no large items which can float. AF447 horizontal stabilizer if CRFP that is the reason it was floating.

That's only part of the reason the vertical stab was floating. It had trapped air pockets inside that gave buoyancy. Besides, the 777 fin is also CFRP so it could potentially float just as well.

There's really no way of knowing for sure. It depends on how waterlogged stuff is and if there are any air pockets. Things like seat cushions, galley carts, structural bits with air pockets, clothing. All that stuff can float. If memory serves, part of a galley from AF447 was afloat. I have no problem believing parts of the wing can float. Even if the tanks are still sealed (yes, I know very unlikely) the fact that jet fuel is less dense than air might make the wing float.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 18:22:01 and read 55194 times.



Quoting captainx (Reply 170):

Would the new FAA AD on the depressuriztion/break-up risk on the 777 cause loss of the transponder and comm antennas? One expert suggest that if the decomp event occurred and the pilots changed course prior to donning their masks then both pilots would likely pass out quickly and the plane would fly on the new course until it ran out of fuel.

It does not apply to this plane. This is a repeat I know, but am saying it to enforce the fact that we've covered this already.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 191):

That information is contained in these documents:

OH YOU'RE A LIFE SAVER! I was looking for these !!! You just saved me a LOT of time... and possibly saved the industry time too from listening to the "stream the black boxes" crowd.

Quoting captainx (Reply 210):

On the ground somewhere?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQexNlbudW4

I am sorry, posting that here is an insult to the participants who seems to have a better idea that that media you showed.

Quoting pihero (Reply 217):

These kinds of abnormalities in flight would have seriously graver effects on safety.
What is interesting is that the abnormal situation starts very gently : loss of one bus, no big deal, no need to call home... until suddeenly one is a full fledged emergency with high life-threatening possibilities...including pilots' incapacitation.
But it's only one possible scenario.
Must be others...

I am looking into these kinds of scenarios... the "no need to call" event which quickly goes into a "holy crap" situation. So now I have two fire related possibilities.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 146):

I agree, this phone thing just won't go away, argh....at least the passport thing has gone away, finally.

Finally... You have no idea how many of the media and their "experts" laughed when I said in front of the camera that the passport issue does not automatically rule a terrorist act and that it could simply mean illegal migrants or refugee traffic...
Oh well... life goes on nonetheless  Smile

----

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 3):

Alright, EVERYONE needs to stop using Tomnod.

I now see why they don't publish their coordinates

Finally someone confirms my suspicions! MUCH APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 8):

map on Avherald which puts it southeast of the last known secondary contact, and that website is not known for being inaccurate.

On the contrary, Avherald has literally no safeguard in it's mechanism to prevent inaccurate but referenced material from appearing. Trying to raise the issue has actually resulted in me being banned from commenting there. So... so much for "not known for being inaccurate"...  Sad

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:15:49]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: bond007
Posted 2014-03-12 18:24:18 and read 54650 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 64):
Quoting lmpinto (Reply 56):
I believe the high resolution Google Earth imagery is aerial photography, is it not ?

In cities and other high-density areas, yes.

On the images that are obviously satellite, you can still assume a huge increase in resolution for a military satellite.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 58):
There are not that many of them owned by any one country,

China has over 100, most of which I'm sure we don't really know what they do. The USA has around 1000 (?), most of them government or military. Japan, over 100..etc.


Jimbo

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-12 18:24:19 and read 54546 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 68):
And I think herein lies the problem. There should be someone taking the lead on coordinating the 12 countries involved in the search (Japan, New Zealand, and Australia are also helping). I think a big part of why nothing has been found is probably the lack of coordination. Even the Vietnamese seem a bit exasperated at the Malaysians and have called off their SAR efforts.

Agree completely. when it comes to search and rescue and human life, political boundaries should be irrelevant.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 18:28:50 and read 54597 times.

Quoting Capt747Ret (Reply 66):
If they did a high dive then the autopilot and autothrottles were probably off as I guess the 777 procedures would be, and the plane was being flown manually. I was trained to turn them off and do it manually. That was true for the DC-8-63, DC-10, B747-100/200.

One former 744 pilot told me that at his company the question whether to hand fly or use the autopilot in an emergency descent depended on who the chief pilot was at the time. Different ones seemed to have different ideas.

In any case that doesn't change the point of your post. Interesting scenario.

Quoting AT (Reply 72):
Awhen it comes to search and rescue and human life, political boundaries should be irrelevant.

Absolutely. Unfortunately that is very optimistic. People won't stop being petty or try to gain political advantage in these situations.

[Edited 2014-03-12 18:30:14]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2014-03-12 18:37:59 and read 52654 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 68):
On a separate note, I am curious to know which airport are the US and Australian P3s, as well as other countries' aircraft using? Does anyone know?

The Australian P3s went to butterworth ( the ex British and then australian base)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMAF_Butterworth

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: CO953
Posted 2014-03-12 18:38:47 and read 52254 times.

User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2621 posts, RR: 2
Reply 322, posted Wed Mar 12 2014 14:26:23 your local time (1 hour 46 minutes 57 secs ago) and read 9533 times:

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 133):
Civil Air Patrol finds downed planes in the US all the time
----------------------------------

And sometimes they don't. Steve Fossett's plane disappeared on September 3, 2007. The Civil Air Patrol searched for it for a month and couldn't find it. The search was called off on October 2, 2007. The plane was finally found one year later, on September 29, 2008, by a hiker. And that happened in California, the most populous state in the US. Should then we all conclude that the Civil Air Patrol, and the US in general, are totally incompetent when it comes to finding downed planes?Or should we just decide it was very hard to find, in a remote mountain area (yet 5 miles away from a ski resort!)? Then why is it that so many people here are assuming that the Malaysian authorities are inept for not finding what actually may very well not be there?
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

New comment by CO953:

Pardon me for copy/pasting this from thread 16. I am not experienced w/the ins and outs of anet commenting between closed threads.

It is interesting to compare this to the Steve Fossett search. Fossett's aviation friends searched very hard, spending countless hours in the air. The crowd-sourcing of the satellite photos was the first time I saw this method used. I helped, myself, alerting on a couple images. It struck me what an amazing resource it was..... YET - in the end it did not help. It took a hiker down the back side of Mammoth, below the Minarets, to stumble upon the Fossett wreckage. By total happenstance, that day I was taking my father on what turned out to be our last fishing trip, and had planned to fish in a lake that ended up being not far from the crash site. While driving to the lake, I heard on the radio that they suspected they had found Fossett's plane. A couple minutes later we hit a police barricade and were turned back. As respectfully as I could, I asked the policewoman whether they had found him and she nodded. What struck me is that they really hadn't been looking in that spot... he was some distance from where they thought... AND, due to the infinite variety of colors and reflections, as well as seasonal changes and snow cover, they would never have found it from the air. There was never any explanation as to why the plane was where it was.

So despite some similarities we have something both like and unlike from the Fossett case in several respects.

Water is flat and though it offers so many reflective aspects, it does not have elevation to cast shadows.
Wreckage mostly sinks in water., and what doesn't sink is subject to scattering currents, unlike wreckage lying on a mountainside. The hiker in the Fossett case was climbing in an area not often climbed.. the find was luck. This correlates with the fact that you have a huge sea and only so many fishermen, who mostly stick to shore.

With the Fossett case, due to the passage of time and the stationary nature of the wreckage, discovery was eventually likely, barring its lying in an inaccessible canyon or mountain ridge or lake. But with this 777, once the currents disperse any surface wreckage, it seems to become more difficult.

I am wondering if they ever find this plane.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-12 18:39:31 and read 52179 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 68):
On a separate note, I am curious to know which airport are the US and Australian P3s, as well as other countries' aircraft using? Does anyone know?

I know the USN has a lot of P-3s at Kadena AFB... not sure if there are any others in the area or if the USN P-3(s) are using another airfield while searching. Can't comment on the RAAF's

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-12 18:47:10 and read 51116 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 68):

The Australian P3s are normally based at Butterworth, it used to be an Australian base, still gets visits from P3s, C130s, and F/A-18s. A P3 can easily launch for 15+ hours. For SAR they can shut a couple of engines down to increase endurance.

The P3 is also one of the few aircraft that can pickup the underwater pinger by dropping buoys.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-12 18:47:32 and read 51084 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 70):
Finally someone confirms my suspicions! MUCH APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!

Well as much as you have done (along with Starlionblue, Phiero, and Zeke), I am glad I could finally return the favor in even the smallest way. I have learned a lot from the four of you over the years (as well as Slamclick and Philsquares for the days of old).

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-12 18:49:22 and read 50762 times.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 74):
The Australian P3s went to butterworth ( the ex British and then australian base)

Thanks.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):
I know the USN has a lot of P-3s at Kadena AFB... not sure if there are any others in the area or if the USN P-3(s) are using another airfield while searching.

Yes, but where are they landing and refueling? Obviously they're not going back to Japan every night.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-12 18:49:23 and read 51105 times.

found this strange, both planespotters.net & airfleets.net have the aircraft as written-off.

In planespotters case they even have notations that it CRASHED, whereas airlinefleet have it as disappeared.

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...28420,9M-MRO-Malaysia-Airlines.php

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b777-28420.htm

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 18:51:04 and read 50609 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 70):
On the contrary, Avherald has literally no safeguard in it's mechanism to prevent inaccurate but referenced material from appearing. Trying to raise the issue has actually resulted in me being banned from commenting there. So... so much for "not known for being inaccurate"...  

Awh, sorry to hear that. I guess I should have said I personally don't know them to be inaccurate, based on the accuracy of their reporting through every event I have followed. It is only anecdotal   Sorry.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 18:55:28 and read 49850 times.

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 81):
found this strange, both planespotters.net & airfleets.net have the aircraft as written-off.

In planespotters case they even have notations that it CRASHED, whereas airlinefleet have it as disappeared.

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...28420,9M-MRO-Malaysia-Airlines.php

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b777-28420.htm

Somewhat premature, definitely.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 19:11:03 and read 47374 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 68):
On a separate note, I am curious to know which airport are the US and Australian P3s, as well as other countries' aircraft using? Does anyone know?

I would think US P3s/P8-As in that region operate from Diego Garcia. I may be wrong.

India operates Do-228 based Electronic Surveillance Aircraft from Andaman & Nicobar Islands. They also have P8-Is, Tu-142s and IL38SDs. India is not willingly deploy P8-Is because Chinese will be happy to shadow and collect information about P8. If at all P8 need to be used better done by US.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flightsimboy
Posted 2014-03-12 19:12:54 and read 47188 times.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 17):
Until the aircraft is located and the Voice and Data Recorders are retrieved, everything is pure speculation.
Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 17):
Until that happens with this tragic accident, everything is pure speculation and heresy. Only then will we know what really happened and this tragedy can be put to rest and MAYBE some corrections can be made to help prevent a repeat of this accident.   

And to think this has gone to 17 threads, with some "a.nutters" excited about breaking a record...really
  

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; could we please keep science fiction theories and content related to possible future movie rights out of these threads? ****

Possible future movie rights...don't get me wrong, I watch air crash documentaries and even the odd movie regarding a crash, but to start talking of a movie before nothing is even proven is just disrespectful to the families and every person closely linked to this crash in some way.

I do believe I am quite ashamed to be associated with airliners.net.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-12 19:14:40 and read 46805 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 68):
On a separate note, I am curious to know which airport are the US and Australian P3s, as well as other countries' aircraft using? Does anyone know?

The US might be flying out of the Philippines or more likely U-Taphao, Thailand. Both are still visited by US aircraft at various times.

Some more information on US assistance

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/uss...arch-for-missing-jetliner-1.271996

Also an overview of the entire search effort

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26514556

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:21:00]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: neoshi
Posted 2014-03-12 19:15:41 and read 46759 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 86):

Diego Garcia is almost 3000 nm to the Gulf. The US probably wouldn't supply P3s given that range unless we were given airbases in Malaysia to operate from (I know we are operating one P3 from a regional base though, just don't know which one).

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:18:45]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-12 19:17:50 and read 46527 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 86):
India is not willingly deploy P8-Is because Chinese will be happy to shadow and collect information about P8. If at all P8 need to be used better done by US.

I suspect that India is just getting used to their first one. Do you think they would actually use it in "anger" at this point?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 19:19:57 and read 46019 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 82):
Awh, sorry to hear that.

I still go there to read, but I always check the references since then...
It's good, as long as you know its weaknesses and know how to deal with it...

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 79):
I am glad I could finally return the favor in even the smallest way.

No no... this is not small! As I said, MUCH appreciated! 

*and now the media knows am no longer ill... phone calls are coming in again! AAARGHHH!*

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: thegreatRDU
Posted 2014-03-12 19:24:23 and read 45417 times.

This looks more and more like an Egyptair 990 situation to me.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-12 19:25:36 and read 45290 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 67):
To what extent has the search off the west coast impacted the search in the Gulf of Thailand? All I've seen is that the search area was "extended" to the Malacca Strait - no mention of pulling resources from the initial search area.

I assume that every country has a limited total number of SAR personnel and equipment. Every bit of SAR out in the Malacca Strait is SAR that was not looking in the right place. Beyond that, Vietnam actually pretty much gave up for about 36 hours based on media reports relaying that the Malaysian authorities were focused on the Malacca Straits at the expense of the Gulf of Thailand. In addition, looking far west of the last detected point seemed completely nonsensical and random to a lot of both professional aviation types and us armchair experts. While I sincerely hope never to have to do such a thing, I'd hope if I did, I had the good sense to keep searching the area around last known point for much longer and with more intensity, before trying to then look in a random direction elsewhere.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 62):
I'm not an expert but does this not mean Singapore is nominally in charge of coordinating efforts in this area?

For that matter, as was pointed out several threads ago, if the maps are accurate, the flight should have been under Singapore ATC control, not Malaysian; IGARI appears to have been within Singapore ATC on that map. I'm guessing either there's been a change in responsibility at some point and the charts aren't reflecting that, or there are informal arrangements between Singaporean and Malaysian ATC that's not reflected on the charts. Either way, if the currents maps are right, the wreckage is probably near the Spratly Islands - which is a bag of diplomatic hurt, as you can read in the Wikipedia article.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-12 19:27:07 and read 45038 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 68):

On a separate note, I am curious to know which airport are the US and Australian P3s, as well as other countries' aircraft using? Does anyone know?

Wikipedia claims that US P8 normally operates from DNA
But like previous posters say they are probably operating from somewhere close
during the search operations.

Anyhow:

"Vietnamese authorities say they already searched the area where the Chinese satellites
photographed possible debris, but will check again to make sure.
One military official has told Reuters a plane has been sent to the region already.
“We are aware and we sent planes to cover that area over the past three days,” deputy
transport minister Pham Quy Tieu told Reuters.

today a (military) plane will search the area again"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ive#block-532114d3e4b0edca9ee78e24

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:29:10]

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:29:40]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-12 19:29:24 and read 44116 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 90):
I suspect that India is just getting used to their first one. Do you think they would actually use it in "anger" at this point?

        

That said, India would probably help if asked since they've now volunteered. There is the minor problem of a base from them to operate from - India doesn't have agreements with anyone in that area, and the P8Is would not be able to roundtrip from any Indian naval facility.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 19:32:44 and read 44051 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 93):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 62):
I'm not an expert but does this not mean Singapore is nominally in charge of coordinating efforts in this area?

For that matter, as was pointed out several threads ago, if the maps are accurate, the flight should have been under Singapore ATC control, not Malaysian; IGARI appears to have been within Singapore ATC on that map. I'm guessing either there's been a change in responsibility at some point and the charts aren't reflecting that, or there are informal arrangements between Singaporean and Malaysian ATC that's not reflected on the charts. Either way, if the currents maps are right, the wreckage is probably near the Spratly Islands - which is a bag of diplomatic hurt, as you can read in the Wikipedia article.

I can't remember exactly but I think it was Singapore controlling it on last contact.

Then again. the map shows SSR regions which may or may not coincide with Control Areas.

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:39:31]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-12 19:32:53 and read 44096 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 35):
What makes you think Malaysian authorities had any idea on day 1 that they had a recording of an unidentified possible aircraft primary radar contact?

They obviously knew it as soon as they started SAR in the Adaman Sea. They wouldn't have been able to make the case to deploy the resources there without at least that evidence. Pretty well everyone one here was saying they must know something they're not telling the general public as soon as the SAR in the Adaman Sea was disclosed.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 54):
Is there an upcoming pres conference?

5pm, and 'apparently' there is "key information to tell the general public" [source: twitter]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Enobar
Posted 2014-03-12 19:34:36 and read 43774 times.

In situations like this, do other airlines not directly involved but operating flight paths in the region actively direct their crews to monitor the waters for debris or would they be too high anyway? I know a CX crew identified a potential field but I am wondering if they do this as a courtesy, or are actually acting on company orders.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Nav20
Posted 2014-03-12 19:34:42 and read 44106 times.

Our radio news just said that the aeroplane was seen at intervals on radar, tracking well to the north-west, over the Malayan Peninsula (way off track). But then they lost contact again, and still have no ideas to speak of as to where it finished up.

I only caught the tail-end of the radio report - I'll post anything new that I get from here.

PS more information here - the Chinese might have found wreckage.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:39:35]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 19:38:41 and read 43274 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 84):
Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 81):
found this strange, both planespotters.net & airfleets.net have the aircraft as written-off.

In planespotters case they even have notations that it CRASHED, whereas airlinefleet have it as disappeared.

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...28420,9M-MRO-Malaysia-Airlines.php

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b777-28420.htm

Somewhat premature, definitely.

Agreed. I was looking through planespotters yesterday and thought it was a bit premature to have MRO removed from the MH fleet list...

[Edited 2014-03-12 19:40:03]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 19:38:55 and read 43705 times.

China is backing off the images ?

" Li Jiaxiang, chief of the Civil Aviation Administration of China told media a short time ago they can not confirm the debris photographed has anything to do with flight MH370."

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 19:42:40 and read 43070 times.

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 99):
Our radio news just said that the aeroplane was seen at intervals on radar, tracking well to the north-west, over the Malayan Peninsula (way off track). But then they lost contact again, and still have no ideas to speak of as to where it finished up.

That would be Thailand then ? They would have spotted it.

I think the oil rig engineer's description remains the strongest.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-12 19:48:31 and read 41963 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 101):
China is backing off the images ?

Got a source?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 19:50:37 and read 41750 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 93):
I assume that every country has a limited total number of SAR personnel and equipment. Every bit of SAR out in the Malacca Strait is SAR that was not looking in the right place. Beyond that, Vietnam actually pretty much gave up for about 36 hours based on media reports relaying that the Malaysian authorities were focused on the Malacca Straits at the expense of the Gulf of Thailand.

The SAR assets in Malacca Straits are the ones used to cover the area on a regular basis. They're just out there as a just in case. Vietnam almost fell victim to media mistranslation, which literally said everything but the Malaysian government confirming the targets on the west are MH370. It was when the Malaysian government reiterated they never confirmed the targets in the west were/was MH370 did the Vietnamese govt cancel their scale-down of the search.

If every bit of SAR in the Malacca strait is a waste of resources, go and sail the strait today then and hope you don't have any mishap (because parts of it are obcured by smoke from forest fire too)...

The Malaysian authorities are not used to being transparent about these things, and they tried by revealing the possible radar contacts... that got eaten up by the media who then said they were contacts, etc.... and the media hunted down those in the authorities to say anything... where "don't deny" can easily be (and maybe deliberately) changed to "confirmed". When you have to say something when you have nothing... things can easily go wrong.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: tristarcrazy
Posted 2014-03-12 19:51:59 and read 41621 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 101):
" Li Jiaxiang, chief of the Civil Aviation Administration of China told media a short time ago they can not confirm the debris photographed has anything to do with flight MH370."

The photos were from Sunday. What was floating then may have sank by now???

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-12 19:51:59 and read 41628 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 95):
That said, India would probably help if asked since they've now volunteered. There is the minor problem of a base from them to operate from - India doesn't have agreements with anyone in that area, and the P8Is would not be able to roundtrip from any Indian naval facility.

Andaman and Nicobar islands are part of India and has a Naval Base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andaman_and_Nicobar_Islands
http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=KmBZ1Vlhxzk=

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-12 19:52:06 and read 41733 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 103):
Got a source?

The Guardian has this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ash-debris-in-south-china-sea-live

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 19:52:17 and read 41437 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 101):

China is backing off the images ?

" Li Jiaxiang, chief of the Civil Aviation Administration of China told media a short time ago they can not confirm the debris photographed has anything to do with flight MH370."

You have to interpret it literally. They cannot confirm that the debris photographed has anything to do with it. Because they have not yet located the debris.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 19:52:23 and read 41381 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 102):
Quoting Nav20 (Reply 99):
Our radio news just said that the aeroplane was seen at intervals on radar, tracking well to the north-west, over the Malayan Peninsula (way off track). But then they lost contact again, and still have no ideas to speak of as to where it finished up.

That would be Thailand then ? They would have spotted it.

I think the oil rig engineer's description remains the strongest.

What is sad is that it has been 5 days and authorities in various countries still don't know for sure what they saw or did not see on their radars... Especially for Malaysia to change the entire search area based on radar tracking and then to go back and change their story again shifting the main search area again...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 19:52:42 and read 41427 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 96):
I can't remember exactly but I think it was Singapore controlling it on last contact.

Then again. the map shows SSR regions which may or may not coincide with Control Areas.

I asked in the last thread - as best I can tell, the last transponder response was from within the SIN SSR. I was wondering what the protocols are for exchanging information between the SIN SSR, the Malaysian SSR and other contiguous regions - Zeke / Mandala499?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: n471wn
Posted 2014-03-12 19:52:50 and read 41561 times.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 92):
This looks more and more like an Egyptair 990 situation to me.

Sadly I must agree.......the transponder being turned off is the key clue here.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-12 19:57:25 and read 40860 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 88):
Also an overview of the entire search effort

Excellent, thanks.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 109):
What is sad is that it has been 5 days and authorities in various countries still don't know for sure what they saw or did not see on their radars... Especially for Malaysia to change the entire search area based on radar tracking and then to go back and change their story again shifting the main search area again...

A question from someone who is not technically at all, but how hard is it and how long does it take to go over recordings of radar coverage on that night?

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 19:58:12 and read 40649 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 111):
the transponder being turned off is the key clue here.

I agree that the transponder stopping transmissions is a key clue. When I hear of all the different theories, I keep going back to the transponder stopping...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-12 20:01:00 and read 40379 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 111):

I do not think the transponder was turned off, many reasons why it can cease transmitting

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: mt99
Posted 2014-03-12 20:01:35 and read 40323 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 113):
I agree that the transponder stopping transmissions is a key clue. When I hear of all the different theories, I keep going back to the transponder stopping.

Sorry if asked before.. Why would you want to be able to turn of a transponder mid-flight? Why is there an "OFF" switch for it?

It would make sense to make it impossible to turn it off while in flight..

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:01:53 and read 40334 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 109):
Especially for Malaysia to change the entire search area based on radar tracking and then to go back and change their story again shifting the main search area again...

They never changed their story - they just corrected the media "interpretation". All they initially said was that they had a primary radar contact (i.e. unidentified contact - not SSR verified) transiting the peninsula which, given the circumstances of this "disappearance", warranted extending the search to include the Malacca Straits. Nobody (other than the press) said it was identified as MH370.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: thegreatRDU
Posted 2014-03-12 20:03:22 and read 40160 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 111):

This looks more and more like an Egyptair 990 situation to me.
Sadly I must agree.......the transponder being turned off is the key clue here.

That's EXACTLY what I was saying to my cousins earlier!!
It's so frustrating...the fact that the transponder was disabled and that this plane had 7+ hours worth of fuel means it could be anywhere...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-12 20:03:39 and read 39984 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 104):
If every bit of SAR in the Malacca strait is a waste of resources, go and sail the strait today then and hope you don't have any mishap (because parts of it are obcured by smoke from forest fire too)...

That's not what I said, Gerry; I specifically meant additional and non-regular SAR that was assigned unexpectedly to the Straits instead of the Gulf. Various reports on BBC World, Al Jazeera America and CNN Int (including our friend Mr. Quest) have seemed to suggest that Malaysia moved SAR planes from the Gulf to the Straits. If that was the case, then that was poor planning and chasing red herrings on their part. If, as you say, most of the SAR that was happening in the Straits for MAS370 was by the regular Straits SAR forces, then something got lost in translation (not for the first time).

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 104):
The Malaysian authorities are not used to being transparent about these things, and they tried by revealing the possible radar contacts... that got eaten up by the media who then said they were contacts, etc.... and the media hunted down those in the authorities to say anything... where "don't deny" can easily be (and maybe deliberately) changed to "confirmed". When you have to say something when you have nothing... things can easily go wrong.

I think the point is that Malaysia really badly botched this, when they had the willing help of almost every nation on the planet in assisting. Since it was in international waters, IIRC, ICAO allows Malaysia to decide whom to set as the lead investigator, and they could have asked NTSB, CAA China, CAA Singapore or any other four-letter agency to take the lead, but they chose to do it themselves. I understand the pride involved, but along with that comes responsibility and they failed that miserably.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 20:03:45 and read 40010 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 112):

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 109):
What is sad is that it has been 5 days and authorities in various countries still don't know for sure what they saw or did not see on their radars... Especially for Malaysia to change the entire search area based on radar tracking and then to go back and change their story again shifting the main search area again...

A question from someone who is not technically at all, but how hard is it and how long does it take to go over recordings of radar coverage on that night?

Cheers
Coal

Good question. I'd like to know too. I guess that they would have a good idea of what to go through because they know the rough time and location. Knowing the time and area would help I would suspect. I guess it's a matter of if anybody was able to track anything continuing from the same position at the same time. Anything else could be just that, something else...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:04:53 and read 39842 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 115):
Sorry if asked before.. Why would you want to be able to turn of a transponder mid-flight? Why is there an "OFF" switch for it?

It would make sense to make it impossible to turn it off while in flight..

This has been discussed a lot. The flight crew needs to be able to disconnect any part of the electrical system that may be misbehaving. Electrical arcing can cause a fire. There are many good SAFETY reasons for being able to disable faulty parts of the electrical system.

Aircraft are not designed with the idea that the flight crew will try to abuse safety systems to down them. Anyone who has access to the circuit breakers can also just crash the plane anyway.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: dtfg
Posted 2014-03-12 20:05:19 and read 40450 times.

Hi guys,

This morning (Beijing time) a message posted on weibo by a Chinese pilot drew some attention. He quoted a NYTimes report which said that the Malaysia military radar detected blips at FL 295 that might have been the missing jet. He emphasized on ''FL 295'', saying that it was not a normal FL.


I am not quiet familiar with the technical details. So what would it suggest if the plane was at FL 295?



Posted 2014-03-12 20:05:20 and read 40003 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 115):
Sorry if asked before.. Why would you want to be able to turn of a transponder mid-flight? Why is there an "OFF" switch for it?

It would make sense to make it impossible to turn it off while in flight..

Many many pilots have inadvertently entered an emergency code while changing squawks. Changing the mode to "off/standby" allows for this error to be caught in time before a massive operation is launched. Putting a code of 7500, for example, will normally result in seeing fighter planes off your wing tip.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-12 20:06:34 and read 39625 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 111):
Sadly I must agree.......the transponder being turned off is the key clue here.

Was the transponder 'turned off?' We can't say that for sure. It could have very well lost power or got destroyed.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:07:19 and read 39636 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 115):

Sorry if asked before.. Why would you want to be able to turn of a transponder mid-flight? Why is there an "OFF" switch for it?

It would make sense to make it impossible to turn it off while in flight..

Asked and responded to many times.

1. Ground radar clutter at busy airports
2. Recycling to resolve problems
3. Analogy - would you want a piece of electrical equipment in your home that you couldn't turn off if it were arc ing and spitting flames?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-12 20:09:48 and read 39413 times.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 117):

My theory as well. It is the one possible explanation for the disappearance of the aircraft that is very difficult to rule out. Transponder off, no radio communications, in an aircraft with an impeccable safety record. How does one discount this possible theory?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:10:36 and read 39003 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 118):
ICAO allows Malaysia to decide whom to set as the lead investigator

SAR is not the same as accident investigation.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-12 20:12:05 and read 38956 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 106):

Yep, but Poseidens have a range of about 2200km total, and just Andaman* to IGARI is about 1400km, so no way it would work. Would have to be based closer than that to be effective. I suppose maybe the Malaysians would let them, but someone has to first asked.

*: They're actually based in Bombay, IIRC - so that's another 1800km.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:12:06 and read 39024 times.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 122):
Many many pilots have inadvertently entered an emergency code while changing squawks. Changing the mode to "off/standby" allows for this error to be caught in time before a massive operation is launched. Putting a code of 7500, for example, will normally result in seeing fighter planes off your wing tip.

This is not an issue with the 777 as you would not be rotating the dial to set a squawk and perhaps inadvertently flip through the 7-thousands. You'd enter it on a keypad. 777 pilots do not set it to standby before changing codes, at least none that I've seen comment on the issue say they do.

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:13:41]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 20:12:13 and read 39194 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 115):
Why would you want to be able to turn of a transponder mid-flight? Why is there an "OFF" switch for it?

It would make sense to make it impossible to turn it off while in flight..

Four reasons to turn off transponders:
1. Transponder malfunction so you need to power cycle it to see if that makes it work.
2. ATC may ask for it to be turned off in congested airspace.
3. During maintenance on the ground where the aircraft is powered up without the intent of moving.
4. Most importantly, pulling the circuit breaker to isolate an electrical fault. This is a safety feature on all electrical circuits on aircraft. Say you're getting electrical arcing, you want to have a guaranteed way of shutting a component off due to potential electrical fire.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-12 20:13:28 and read 39338 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 126):

You're absolutely right; sorry. Too late in too long a day. Perhaps then crisis managers, rather than a four-letter agency.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:13:43 and read 39319 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 111):
the transponder being turned off is the key clue here.

We don't know that it was "turned off". We just know that it stopped functioning, for which there are many possible explanations.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2014-03-12 20:16:16 and read 38796 times.

I would like to note the difficulty of trying to find a missing a/c. Recall aviation adventurer Steve Fosset who when missing while flying over the desert mountains of Nevada. Despite massive air searches for months, it took a hiker over a year later to stumble across some debris that led to more of it and some bones that DNA linked to him.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-12 20:17:37 and read 38864 times.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 122):
I am not quiet familiar with the technical details. So what would it suggest if the plane was at FL 295?

It's not a standard FL for commercial aircraft. If an a/c were to divert from an airway without clearance and wanted to avoid other traffic, it would make sense to fly at FL like 295.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 20:18:25 and read 38826 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 116):
They never changed their story - they just corrected the media "interpretation". All they initially said was that they had a primary radar contact (i.e. unidentified contact - not SSR verified) transiting the peninsula which, given the circumstances of this "disappearance", warranted extending the search to include the Malacca Straits. Nobody (other than the press) said it was identified as MH370.

A 'senior defense official' told Reuters it went over Malacca. I don't think Reuters is lying. Someone yanked the guys chain.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 9VSIO
Posted 2014-03-12 20:23:39 and read 37930 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 128):
This is not an issue with the 777 as you would not be rotating the dial to set a squawk and perhaps inadvertently flip through the 7-thousands. You'd enter it on a keypad. 777 pilots do not set it to standby before changing codes, at least none that I've seen comment on the issue say they do.

Well, the poster was asking why you would ever want a xpondr off, not just the ones in B777.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 133):
This is not an issue with the 777 as you would not be rotating the dial to set a squawk and perhaps inadvertently flip through the 7-thousands. You'd enter it on a keypad. 777 pilots do not set it to standby before changing codes, at least none that I've seen comment on the issue say they do.

Not my quote. Certainly not in my post.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 20:25:18 and read 37654 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 116):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 109):
Especially for Malaysia to change the entire search area based on radar tracking and then to go back and change their story again shifting the main search area again...

They never changed their story - they just corrected the media "interpretation". All they initially said was that they had a primary radar contact (i.e. unidentified contact - not SSR verified) transiting the peninsula which, given the circumstances of this "disappearance", warranted extending the search to include the Malacca Straits. Nobody (other than the press) said it was identified as MH370.

I should have expressed my thoughts more carefully... Regardless, MAS and the Malaysian authorities are looking a bit amateurish...

However, I wonder if the primary radar contact was involved somehow, whether it was the MH jet or something else?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-12 20:25:28 and read 37883 times.

Quoting Coal (Reply 80):
Yes, but where are they landing and refueling? Obviously they're not going back to Japan every night.
Quoting vnangia (Reply 127):
Yep, but Poseidens have a range of about 2200km total, and just Andaman* to IGARI is about 1400km, so no way it would work. Would have to be based closer than that to be effective. I suppose maybe the Malaysians would let them, but someone has to first asked.

OK, I just watched a Navy news clip on YouTube and they said the P3s are being deployed out of an air base in Malaysia, I'm guessing the same one the Australian RAAF is using.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-12 20:26:07 and read 37485 times.

I am a flight enthusiast but not highly conversant with all of the tech aspects. I am trying to keep up with all the information coming along. My question is regarding the transponder. Does the radar return come from the transponder? If not, when the flight disappeared off the radar, and had the transponder been on, would we have gotten signal from wherever the plane might be located? Also, in areas without radar coverage, the transponder is useless, right? Thank you!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:28:50 and read 37174 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 134):
A 'senior defense official' told Reuters it went over Malacca. I don't think Reuters is lying. Someone yanked the guys chain.

He didn't. All he said was that "something" (an unidentified radar contact) went over the peninsular and the Malacca straits. The press turned it into "MH370 went over the peninsular and the Malacca straits". Primary radar cannot identify what the "something" was.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 20:32:37 and read 36694 times.

Flight numbers 318 / 319 will now replace the flight numbers 370 / 371 effective from March 14 on the KUL - PEK - KUL route. Just heard it on here: http://english.astroawani.com/videos/live

It already shows in the MAS booking system. The flight numbers 370 / 371 to be retired...

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:36:29]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-12 20:37:16 and read 36307 times.

Can somebody explain the Rolls Royce Engine communications? Apparently there was one on takeoff, and then 20 minutes later, and then none. If these are sent on a regular basis (that is my understanding) and the fact that there were no more of these (again, my understanding).... doesn't this imply that the plane went down pretty soon after the transponder stopped? And also implies that even if the transponder was manually turned off, you can't manually turn off the RR signals (again my understanding), so the plane wasn't flying soon after, i.e. no flights off to India, etc.....

Can someone elaborate on the RR messages? At what intervals are these sent out, every 20 mins?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-12 20:39:07 and read 35894 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 138):
I am a flight enthusiast but not highly conversant with all of the tech aspects. I am trying to keep up with all the information coming along. My question is regarding the transponder. Does the radar return come from the transponder? If not, when the flight disappeared off the radar, and had the transponder been on, would we have gotten signal from wherever the plane might be located? Also, in areas without radar coverage, the transponder is useless, right? Thank you!

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, for secondary radar. The radar interrogates and the transponder replies (w/ info like altitude).
2) Not sure I understand. When a flight "disappears" off of secondary radar, it means it is no longer replying. It does not mean, necessarily, that the a/c is located where it was when it last responded.
3) Yes, with respect to secondary radar, but bear in mind that transponder is not the only way a/c communicates its position.

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:42:19]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:39:45 and read 35848 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 138):
My question is regarding the transponder. Does the radar return come from the transponder? If not, when the flight disappeared off the radar, and had the transponder been on, would we have gotten signal from wherever the plane might be located? Also, in areas without radar coverage, the transponder is useless, right? Thank you!

A transponder is used with SSR - secondary surveillance radar. You are correct, the transponder generates the radar return. It is derived from the wartime IFF (identification friend or foe) system. Since you need a LOT of power to be able to bounce radio waves off something and get them back reliably, the interrogation system works better - as in, the radar sweeps the area, the transponder responds. There are various transponder types, like Mode-A, Mode-C, Mode-S, and then military ones. The idea is that distance and azimuth is calculated by the receiver, but details like pressure altitude, identification code, and with Mode-S lots of other things are provided by the transponder.

In areas without radar coverage a transponder is not useless. It is used for TCAS, traffic collision avoidance system. Basically other planes interrogate your transponder and if you're about to become mid-air dust, alert the flight crew.

There is also PSR, primary surveillance radar, which is what I was talking about before - World War 2 style radar, just bouncing radio off something and listening for when it comes back. It calculates distance and azimuth (and military radar with a fancy array can do altitude) but obviously does not provide any identification since it requires no participation on behalf of the target.

SSR or the transponder system allows air traffic service radar to cover a much greater range with much less power. I am told that in this region, it is likely that you will only be picked up on SSR. Turning off your transponder means you disappear. But, military have the big powerful PSR and there is also space-based radar, so you can't really entirely disappear forever, but it seems this flight has a gap in the surveillance coverage and this is why they don't know where it is.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 20:41:48 and read 35656 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 138):
I am a flight enthusiast but not highly conversant with all of the tech aspects. I am trying to keep up with all the information coming along. My question is regarding the transponder. Does the radar return come from the transponder? If not, when the flight disappeared off the radar, and had the transponder been on, would we have gotten signal from wherever the plane might be located? Also, in areas without radar coverage, the transponder is useless, right? Thank you!

There are two main kinds of radar used in tracking aircraft, and they are often combined.
- Primary radar depends on signals bounced off objects and returning. Computer-fu allows tracking, but in essence the radar receives no raw information beyond "something radar reflective of a certain size is yonder".
- Secondary radar (SSR) sends out a signal which is picked up by transponders. The transponders respond back with an identifying number (squawk) and typically pressure altitude, allowing the plane to be tracked and tagged automatically. Modern airline transponders also respond with a plethora of information such as heading, speed, position and more.

If the transponder had been on, the plane would not have disappeared from radar, since the transponder was what enabled the tracking in the first place. When they talk about MH370 disappearing they mean it went off secondary radar. Assuming it was still flying and there was coverage, it would still have been trackable using primary radar.

In areas without radar coverage, the transponder is not usable for radar tracking, however it is not quite useless. Modern airline transponders are also used for TCAS (traffic collision and avoidance), with signals going plane-to-plane independent of ground stations.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 141):
Can somebody explain the Rolls Royce Engine communications? Apparently there was one on takeoff, and then 20 minutes later, and then none. If these are sent on a regular basis (that is my understanding) and the fact that there were no more of these (again, my understanding).... doesn't this imply that the plane went down pretty soon after the transponder stopped?

It doesn't imply the plane went down, though that is a possible outcome. It could mean ACARS was switched off or stopped working. Or for that matter that signals never went through due to the receiving station not getting them, or that they were lost on the way from the receiving station to MH maintenance or whoever gets them in the end.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 141):
And also implies that even if the transponder was manually turned off, you can't manually turn off the RR signals (again my understanding), so the plane wasn't flying soon after, i.e. no flights off to India, etc.....

You can turn off any communications system by pulling the appropriate circuit breaker in the cockpit. It is a safety feature to isolate malfunctioning components and prevent them from damaging other parts of the electrics, or starting fires.

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:44:00]

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:45:40]

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:47:16]

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:48:05]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-12 20:45:24 and read 35195 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 118):
have seemed to suggest that Malaysia moved SAR planes from the Gulf to the Straits.

Suggest, yes. I have not seen any change of deployment from the Indonesian assets according to my sources... dunno if they're accurate at this moment though...

Quoting vnangia (Reply 118):
If, as you say, most of the SAR that was happening in the Straits for MAS370 was by the regular Straits SAR forces, then something got lost in translation (not for the first time).

If something got lost in translation, yes, I agree, this ain't the first time and am sure it won't be the last...

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 134):
A 'senior defense official' told Reuters it went over Malacca. I don't think Reuters is lying. Someone yanked the guys chain.

If the media got it from the non-official source (just because you asked info from anyone above the rank of colonel, doesn't make it an official source), then they deserve to be burnt.
I do suggest that you watch the press conferences, and see the questions, and answers, and see how they can EASILY be mistranslated. Reuters isn't lying intentionally... and yes, media handling skills (eg: choice of language/words used to answer) of the press conference officials needs upgrading... but that's another story/subject.

Even for me, it took some thinking to make sure I understand what I am hearing instead of perceiving what I am hearing at the press conference media coverage...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-12 20:46:19 and read 34895 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 136):
Regardless, MAS and the Malaysian authorities are looking a bit amateurish...

To our eyes. But don't underestimate the jurisdictional / territorial issues between Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Vietnam, China, etc in this area. Not to mention the cultural issues; again, an analogy - most of the developed world cannot understand why the U.S. didn't do something about gun control after the Sandy Hook massacre - but they didn't.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-12 20:49:44 and read 34547 times.

Aftgaffe and Nupogodi, thanks for the responses. That makes a lot more sense. Yes, I can now see transponders being used in TCAS. I appreciate the information.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2014-03-12 20:50:17 and read 34431 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 127):

The Indian Navy have 3 P-8i. They are based out of Chenai, or somewhere on the east coast. As of right now, they are still checking out their new toys and do not have the capability to deploy to the region.

The US navy deyployed a group of P-8As to Japan in December. They should have sufficient support to deploy to the region to assist if needed.

Bt

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-12 20:46:16 and read 35733 times.

Hello all,

I've been following this thread and mystery for a few days now, and I must say, while MH370 has been a tragic and confusing event, it's refreshing to see such informed and well-modded discussion on the Internet. I signed up for a.net so that I could share this. Apologies in advance for the super-long post but I thought it was important to document my (surprisingly few) image processing steps along the way so as not to be accused of being a "dirty photoshopper."

I know it has been discussed, but I thought kmot's discovery in Tomnod tile 4894 was worth a closer look. Many people could not see it because it is a very faint outline, but my monitor is very bright and contrasty so it popped right off the screen for me. The Tomnod URL isn't loading for me currently but here it is again anyway:

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

Luckily I had a screenshot saved from last night.

Tomnod map tile 4894, unedited screenshot


I tried to enhance the contrast in photoshop, here were the results using only the brightness/contrast tool:

Tomnod map tile 4894, contrast-enhanced


As you can see, there is more of a visible shape... However, image compression artifacts are also magnified. I tried again using brightness/contrast along with a few touches of the "color replace" tool along the way to remove the mostly-uniform artifacts. This allowed me to go further with the contrast enhancement, revealing much more detail. It really does look a bit like a 777 to me.

Tomnod map tile 4894, contrast-enhanced & artifact-corrected


Then I made a scale - let's hope Tomnod's is correct. First I grabbed a screenshot of just the scale, and then a diagram of a 777-200ER. I sized the diagram (approximately) to the Tomnod scale in Photoshop *without* looking at kmot's image so as not to be biased into trying to make it fit correctly. Then I combined it with the image:

Tomnod map tile 4894, contrast-enhanced & artifact-corrected, with scale and 777-200 diagram


As you can see it's a pretty close match. The image looks a bit bigger but it may be magnified by being in shallow water. Now, I'm not saying this *is* an aircraft, but if it's not, it's certainly a pretty interesting illusion/coincidence/case of (un)wishful thinking. Finally, if it is a plane, here's an annotated image with guesses for debris ID:

Tomnod map tile 4894, contrast-enhanced & artifact-corrected, with scale, 777-200 diagram & annotations


I'm sure someone more qualified than myself can say whether or not it's a real possibility for a 777 to land in the ocean, at night, in this intact condition in shallow water. It seems rather unlikely to me, but stranger things have happened. Worth checking out at least? If the Tomnod API is correct, that places the image at 7.541126N, 103.011956E.

-dan

[Edited 2014-03-12 20:55:11]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-12 21:00:22 and read 33417 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 144):

Great explanation. Thank you! I have flown in that area few times and most recently in Dec from SIN-CCU. I always feel very safe because I figure that there are major airports like Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok for any emergency. Also, I feel the radar coverage in that area because of these airports to be quite extensive as well. I am quite surprised with this situation.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:06:03 and read 33026 times.

Due to the heavy image compression of your source image, I would have to personally guess that this is just a coincidence. It looks like, as you noticed, you are mostly magnifying compression artifacts that appear in your source image that appear for any number of reasons.

This area has been covered heavily by SAR and if such a thing was visible from space, they would have seen it.

Of course it doesn't hurt reporting it, but the chance of a ditching in the ocean at night leaving a 777 so intact is almost unfathomable.

I think you could find many JPEG compressed images of open sea that, when exaggerated, may resemble the outline and scale of a 777.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-12 21:06:04 and read 32762 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 146):

Interesting for sure. Is that location close to some of the points of interest?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 21:12:40 and read 31814 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 138):
doesn't this imply that the plane went down pretty soon after the transponder stopped?
Quoting stuyyz (Reply 138):
Can somebody explain the Rolls Royce Engine communications?

The "RR" signals are signals sent as part of ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) which is a system that send maintenance information, in this case to Rolls Royce. It is unrelated to the transponder which identifies the a/c to secondary radar systems. In this case, Rolls Royce reports they received 2 standard messages, then none. ACARS is satellite based, I believe, and completely unrelated to the transponder

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 138):
you can't manually turn off the RR signals (again my understanding)

You can turn off ACARS - you can (and must be able to) turn off any electrical system in the aircraft.
However, it is an interesting point that, perhaps a 777 pilot can let us know. ACARS is not something the pilots would regularly interact with. It is intended to be a 'behind the scenes' system that is used by maintenance. Yes - if there is a problem that ACARs reports - it may be presented to the pilots - but not as ACARs, but as an aircraft problem.

So - regarding the 'hijacking' issues - it seems like it would takes somebody much more familiar with a/c systems than the garden variety hijacker. Turning off a transponder - easy - there is a knob on the front. Turning off ACARS? You probably have to pull some rather obscure breaker. The 'average' hijacker (if there is such a thing) may not even know ACARS exists or is installed on a particular a/c. Case in point - lots of confusion even now if the a/c had ACARS operating.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 21:15:27 and read 31485 times.

Comparison of "Oil Rig Worker" data and China SANSTID data

Posted this in 16, but there have been some comments here so I though a repost may be useful.
----
Just for the heck of it, I did a bit of work in Google Earth to compare two reports.

First - the oil rig worker at 8 22 30.23 N by 108 42 22.26 E reported the fire on a bearing of 265-276 and 50-70 km

Second the China Sat photos at N6.7 E 105.63

Where are they relative to each other?

Well - if you start at the oil rig and look 270 degrees, you are looking substantially north of the China Sat debris sighting (which is about 240 degrees.)

But - if you take the surface current/rate reported by the worker (225/230 at 2.0-2.5 knots)- and assume the debris drifted that way, it is kind of interesting.

What you see is that if debris landed 70KM from the worker at 270 degrees and then drifted 235 degrees, it would intersect the China Sat sighting,

BUT - the distance is wrong. The distance from the oil worker's proposed location (which he admits is poor) to the China Sat location is 170 NM, which at a 2 knot drift speed would take 85 hours. The time between the two sightings is only about 34 hours (1722 Z the 7th to 300Z the 9th). But if you extend the oil workers sighting line to shorten the distance, the bearing is wrong for his reported surface current.

And - none of this explains how the plane got from the last know location to the Oil worker's sighting location.

Here is a picture.
Frankly - don't know if this means anything - but that they don't match up.

MH sighting lines

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:19:07 and read 31126 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 150):
ACARS is satellite based, I believe

Usually VHF actually

Some on this forum call HF ACARS uplinks "sat-cars". But in most cases it's ground-based stations listening for VHF

Still, if I understand correctly, the accident aircraft was capable of both.

edit: Also, to disable ACARS, as I have read on PPRuNe from 777 drivers, you just have to go into the computer and selectively disable both uplinks (if you have SATCOM, otherwise just the one). Or, yeah, just pull the breaker.

[Edited 2014-03-12 21:20:51]

edit2: excuse me, I believe in aviation you guys call those *downlinks*. Well, I have a computer science background and when I'm sending something I consider it an uplink, but you guys call it what you want, eh?  


[Edited 2014-03-12 21:30:09]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 21:25:07 and read 30354 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 77):
The P3 is also one of the few aircraft that can pickup the underwater pinger by dropping buoys.

How many buoys can it drop before it runs out of them? Surely, they would drop a buoy only after sighting some debris or suspect the aircraft is in some specific area, right?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 21:28:53 and read 29929 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 150):
So - regarding the 'hijacking' issues - it seems like it would takes somebody much more familiar with a/c systems than the garden variety hijacker. Turning off a transponder - easy - there is a knob on the front. Turning off ACARS? You probably have to pull some rather obscure breaker. The 'average' hijacker (if there is such a thing) may not even know ACARS exists or is installed on a particular a/c. Case in point - lots of confusion even now if the a/c had ACARS operating.

While I agree that the "average" hijacker might not prepare well, nothing says our very hypothetical hijacker is average. Once you make the assumption that this person planned properly, the information is not so hard to glean.

A couple of minutes of searching found me several images of the real panel and diagrams. There are full FCOMs and FCTMs to download and so forth.

http://www.piac.com.pk/trainingsecti...dffiles/777/b777-fctm_22072010.pdf

http://www.737ng.co.uk/B777%20FCOM%2...ht%20Crew%20Operating%20Manual.pdf

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 152):
edit2: excuse me, I believe in aviation you guys call those *downlinks*. Well, I have a computer science background and when I'm sending something I consider it an uplink, but you guys call it what you want, eh?

I hear you. I've worked with computers for years so imagine my confusion when we went through this terminology in ATPL class. "Downlink?!?"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

[Edited 2014-03-12 21:31:36]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 21:30:42 and read 29547 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 152):
Usually VHF actually

Thanks!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-12 21:31:05 and read 29950 times.

US officials are discounting the Chinese images: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/wo...laysia-airlines-flight-370.html?hp

An American military official discounted the Chinese images, saying that United States satellites would have seen the object and did not. It was unlikely, the official added, that a large piece of the aircraft would be floating, and in any case, its location was in a high-traffic area near the many ships and aircraft searching for the missing jetliner.

“I cannot possibly believe that image is a valid image,”’ the official said.


The Times is also quoting the Malaysian military again as saying they detected *something* flying west. It sounds like that's where the confusion is coming from - they're not sure if this was MH370 or not, but the radar did pick up an unidentified plane flying at 29,500 feet over Malaysia.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Nav20
Posted 2014-03-12 21:30:50 and read 29863 times.

That New Zealander, Mike McKay, provided a very detailed report of what he saw. Good for him..........

As far as I can work out the position he states (I only have one of the kids' old atlases to work with  ) he places the 'incident' quite close to the coast of Vietnam, pretty well due south of Ho Chi Minh city - but as I say I have limited resources where geography is concerned, anyone please correct me if I'm wrong?

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201...-missing-plane-come-down-in-flames

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 21:33:50 and read 29396 times.

Don't anyone take this the wrong way, but, could we stop with the Rorschach tests?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 21:35:49 and read 29239 times.

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 157):
As far as I can work out the position he states (I only have one of the kids' old atlases to work with &nbsp 

Your old atlases and this little thing we call "The Internet".  You can plonk in coordinates in Google Maps.

Entering "8°22'30.2"N 108°42'22.3"E" gives:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/8%C2%B022'30.2%22N+108%C2%B042'22.3%22E/@8.6276892,112.4058292,6z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

[Edited 2014-03-12 21:36:23]

[Edited 2014-03-12 21:38:08]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 21:36:55 and read 28990 times.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 160):

It's behind a paywall, but the WSJ is saying that the 777 may have flown 5 hours longer than it's last contact point. This is getting sketchier by the minute....

I saw an estimate of 7+ hours. In any case a looooong way.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:37:31 and read 29125 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 156):

US officials are discounting the Chinese images

This is very disconcerting. The US has massive space-based assets, and would easily be able to confirm or deny this.

I fear this will be another empty day. I sympathize with all the friends and families who are not being given the opportunity to begin their grieving process.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 21:42:04 and read 28230 times.

Quoting airplane (Reply 43):
I know the search for this aircraft has been very poor and puts Malaysian authorities in an under qualified situation. But since this is a Boeing, is NTSB on this too ?

Why has it been poor or why are they in an underqualified situation? Lack of debris in the Ocean makes it hard to pinpoint where the aircraft came down and would baffle any country. Imagine AF 447 without any floating debris around the last known point of contact. They would have never found it then. Even after finding the floating debris it took 2 years for them to find the actual wreck and retrieve the black boxes. US and China are also involved in the search so far and have found NOTHING.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-12 21:42:19 and read 28381 times.

Someone had posted this here a couple of minutes ago but for some reason it's been removed?

Ostrower tweets:
"BREAKING WSJ EXCLUSIVE: Engine monitoring data shows missing 777 was airborne for five hours -sources"
http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/443967767835062272

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-12 21:42:35 and read 28183 times.

Does ADS-B rely on secondary radar interrogations to transmit, or does ADS-B transmit on a schedule also? (Say broadcast location every 30 sec?)

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:43:43 and read 28132 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 164):
Does ADS-B rely on secondary radar interrogations to transmit, or does ADS-B transmit on a schedule also? (Say broadcast location every 30 sec?)


The latter. The B in ADS-B stands for Broadcast.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-12 21:44:37 and read 28530 times.

Good afternoon. The Wall Street Journal is reporting new information on missing flight MH370, which U.S. investigators now suspect flew on long after it disappeared from civilian radar screens.

U.S. investigators suspect that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 stayed in the air for about four hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, according to two people familiar with the details, raising the possibility that the plane could have flown on for hundreds of additional miles under conditions that remain murky.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ive#block-532114d3e4b0edca9ee78e24

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 21:44:38 and read 28097 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 165):
Quoting ADent (Reply 164):
Does ADS-B rely on secondary radar interrogations to transmit, or does ADS-B transmit on a schedule also? (Say broadcast location every 30 sec?)

The latter. The B in ADS-B stands for Broadcast.

And AFAIK it is every second.

[Edited 2014-03-12 21:44:53]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-12 21:45:50 and read 28276 times.

Quoting Stretch (Reply 166):
The Wall Street Journal is reporting new information on missing flight MH370, which U.S. investigators now suspect flew on long after it disappeared from civilian radar screens.

Link to WSJ article
http://tinyurl.com/m7jnd8x

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:45:54 and read 28094 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 154):
I hear you. I've worked with computers for years so imagine my confusion when we went through this terminology in ATPL class. "Downlink?!?"

Hahah, I suppose when the terminology was created, it could only really go down! Now the down can go up and who knows what where... Jargon!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-12 21:47:25 and read 27832 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 163):
Someone had posted this here a couple of minutes ago but for some reason it's been removed?

I did but for whatever reason the link got all messed up.

Quoting flood (Reply 163):
BREAKING WSJ EXCLUSIVE: Engine monitoring data shows missing 777 was airborne for five hours -sources"

This is beyond sketchy IMO. How does something like this happen which isn't some kind of hijacking? The most shocking thing is the fact that we are just finding out about this now. I would hope the Malaysian government knew about it a long time ago.
Pat

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 21:47:52 and read 27964 times.

So they seem to be saying that engine data was still be reported by 9M-MRO for hours?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Coal
Posted 2014-03-12 21:50:01 and read 27615 times.

Quoting The Guardian:
State media in Malaysia has also criticised Australian news coverage of co-pilot Fariq Abdul Hamid, labelling an interview conducted by Channel Nine with two women who alleged untoward behaviour by the pilot when he let them in the cockpit as “gutter journalism”.

Wholeheartedly agree. Just to reiterate what I said in Thrd 15, this was just two dumb blondes wanting a bit of fame plus typical sensationalist Australian media looking down at their Southeast Asian neighbors.

Cheers
Coal

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 21:50:47 and read 27444 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 154):
While I agree that the "average" hijacker might not prepare well, nothing says our very hypothetical hijacker is average. Once you make the assumption that this person planned properly, the information is not so hard to glean.

Indeed - but it does argue for our VERY hypothetical hijacker having pretty deep knowledge of a 777. Compare to the hijackers on 9/11. They did not even know how to select cabin versus radio on the mic.

Back to the facts - we know the a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We know that, by now, it is down somewhere - fuel ran out long ago. We don't know much else.

-------------------------------------
This is the hard part for those not involved in SAR - waiting.... and waiting....

I can tell you from personal experience - it can be as frustrating on the other side.

As a "public figure" on the other side - the person standing in front of 3000+ evacuated people at a daily briefing and trying to answer their questions, sooth there needs, and sometimes deliver the worst kind of news (yes, your house, your home, it is gone) - I can tell you without hesitation that NOTHING I've ever done is as frustrating not being able to answer those questions, sooth those needs, help those grieving people. Despite everything that very competent people can do - sometimes the answer is 'we just don't know'.

While I have seen it done well, and badly, I would ask those blasting the various 'authorities' to remember - it is tough on both sides. Also - the public speakers may or may not be the 'best' for the case - but frankly, they are often not the ones doing the work. The best are often the line. I've been blessed to work with some great teams - and also had to work for some not so good. But in general - the desire and effort is genuine.

- bg

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 21:51:53 and read 27537 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
Answer: According to this link http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html they ping on acoustic 38.5 kHz (an audio signal) and a range of 2-3km
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26514556

"They [flight recorders] typically have a radio beacon and so for example our P-3 - if they are flying within a certain range of that - will pick up that radio beacon."


So, folks, I think the best bet now is to swarm as much of the surrounding Oceans as possible (at least within a 2 hour radius of last known contact to begin with) with P-3s from as many countries as possible so that the pinger from the black boxes are picked up before their batteries die out! Sounds like a ridiculous idea and a brute force approach that is going to cost a lot of money but what else to do in the current situation where the wreckage is nowhere to be found?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-12 21:52:01 and read 27438 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 154):

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 150):
So - regarding the 'hijacking' issues - it seems like it would takes somebody much more familiar with a/c systems than the garden variety hijacker. Turning off a transponder - easy - there is a knob on the front. Turning off ACARS? You probably have to pull some rather obscure breaker. The 'average' hijacker (if there is such a thing) may not even know ACARS exists or is installed on a particular a/c. Case in point - lots of confusion even now if the a/c had ACARS operating.

While I agree that the "average" hijacker might not prepare well, nothing says our very hypothetical hijacker is average. Once you make the assumption that this person planned properly, the information is not so hard to glean.

Most of the 772 circuit breakers are located in the E/E bay, ACARS is in the AIMS cabinet in the rear. Doubtful a hijacker made it there. More likely would be a catastrophic event affecting the cabinet.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: dtfg
Posted 2014-03-12 21:51:54 and read 27770 times.

WSJ: Engine data suggests the plane flew on for hours after disappearing from radar

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:52:58 and read 28012 times.

So NTSB says Rolls-Royce was getting engine status updates 5 hours after the last known secondary contact?

I talk to my CPL buddy about this every day, and every day there's a new story, and each time I tell him "This can't get any weirder".

And now I look like a liar. Because it just got a lot weirder.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: vnangia
Posted 2014-03-12 21:53:17 and read 27894 times.

Quoting Stretch (Reply 166):

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say:       

Also, wtf does "The investigators believe the plane flew for a total of five hours based on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing Co. 777's engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program." mean? They continued receiving ACARS messages?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 21:53:31 and read 27709 times.

So we would be looking at a hijacking, or an incapacitated crew, with this "engine data for four hours" story?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-12 21:54:22 and read 27579 times.

EDIT: apparently this had a mention in the news yesterday and was never confirmed, so it's probably old news.

This came across google news a few minutes ago. I have not yet seen any other source carry it, so I remain sceptical:

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-s...nt.aspx?id=20140312000154&cid=1103

"The Beijing News has reported that a source claiming to be a local volunteer assisting in the search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has found a dead body wearing a lifejacket in an area of the Strait of Malacca."

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:00:18]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: huxrules
Posted 2014-03-12 21:54:33 and read 27404 times.

By the time I get up there better be some 'splainin from "US investigators" if this is true.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:54:35 and read 27306 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 174):
So, folks, I think the best bet now is to swarm as much of the surrounding Oceans as possible (at least within a 2 hour radius of last known contact to begin with) with P-3s from as many countries as possible so that the pinger from the black boxes are picked up before their batteries die out! Sounds like a ridiculous idea and a brute force approach that is going to cost a lot of money but what else to do in the current situation where the wreckage is nowhere to be found?

I'm not sure they would be heard outside of the water, but I could be wrong.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Nav20
Posted 2014-03-12 21:54:43 and read 27357 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 159):
Your old atlases and this little thing we call "The Internet". You can plonk in coordinates in Google Maps.

Fair enough, Starlionblue. But it looks as if I got it pretty well right, south of Ho Chi Minh City?

So if Mike Mckay is right, and really did see the aeroplane crashing, the authorities are just plain looking in the wrong places?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 21:54:54 and read 27284 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 176):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 154):

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 150):
So - regarding the 'hijacking' issues - it seems like it would takes somebody much more familiar with a/c systems than the garden variety hijacker. Turning off a transponder - easy - there is a knob on the front. Turning off ACARS? You probably have to pull some rather obscure breaker. The 'average' hijacker (if there is such a thing) may not even know ACARS exists or is installed on a particular a/c. Case in point - lots of confusion even now if the a/c had ACARS operating.

While I agree that the "average" hijacker might not prepare well, nothing says our very hypothetical hijacker is average. Once you make the assumption that this person planned properly, the information is not so hard to glean.

Most of the 772 circuit breakers are located in the E/E bay, ACARS is in the AIMS cabinet in the rear. Doubtful a hijacker made it there. More likely would be a catastrophic event affecting the cabinet.

Thx for info. I suspected it wasn't in the overhead panel at least.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 180):
So we would be looking at a hijacking, or an incapacitated crew, with this "engine data for four hours" story?

Both are possibilities.

[Edited 2014-03-12 21:55:51]

[Edited 2014-03-12 21:56:30]


[Edited 2014-03-12 21:57:12]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 21:55:01 and read 27350 times.

The engine data comm system is separate?

Wouldn't have guessed that.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 21:55:29 and read 27491 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 163):
"BREAKING WSJ EXCLUSIVE: Engine monitoring data shows missing 777 was airborne for five hours -sources"
http://twitter.com/jonostrower/statu...62272

Makes sense and what many people thought. Given how heavily monitored the South China Sea is, this means it went out the Indian Ocean most likely. I also remember an eye witness who saw it at low elevation coming back over Malaysia. I guess they got this data from Rolls Royce ?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-12 21:55:46 and read 27764 times.

If the WSJ is right, that's why a red-eye flight was the one that disappeared. That may be why cell phones and chat apps showed communication active until the phones died. But what of the passengers? Executed? Holed up as captives somewhere? WOW. If true, it's unheard of. Another high-concept, low-tech terrorist plot? The EICAS data may include clues as to where the thing is, and presumably satellites and such are searching there right now. I'm imagining Seal Team Six and the equivalent Chinese folks locking and loading. Interesting that the Americans are so at odds with the rest of the world's investigators.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 21:56:58 and read 27310 times.

Quoting vnangia (Reply 179):
Also, wtf does "The investigators believe the plane flew for a total of five hours based on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing Co. 777's engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program." mean? They continued receiving ACARS messages?

Assuming no misdirection that is exactly what it means. They said previously that Rolls-Royce got 2 status updates during the accident flight, one on take off and one reaching cruise, neither exceptional.

Now apparently they reveal they got more. A lot more, it seems.

I hope this is false somehow.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-12 21:57:36 and read 27215 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 181):
"The Beijing News has reported that a source claiming to be a local volunteer assisting in the search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has found a dead body wearing a lifejacket in an area of the Strait of Malacca."

It was initially reported yesterday with no mention since and appears to have been unrelated.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 170):
I did but for whatever reason the link got all messed up.

Ah, thanks... was surprised it disappeared so quick but I guess you being a mod explains that  

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-12 21:57:46 and read 27175 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 186):
The engine data comm system is separate?

Wouldn't have guessed that.

ACARS is a separate comms system from the others. It's not only for engine stuff though. You can even use for text communications with base.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-12 21:59:09 and read 26973 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 188):
Interesting that the Americans are so at odds with the rest of the world's investigators.

Considering it's a Boeing aircraft, and the NTSB's connections with Boeing and around the world, it's entirely possible that they have formed up a discrete investigation unit of their own; and with the experience and connections they have...they could come up with some stunning news. When you get a bunch of well-connected, experienced folks to set aside their differences and drive towards one goal....

Just one possibility!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: chrisrad
Posted 2014-03-12 22:00:48 and read 26372 times.

Stranger and stranger every day.

Quoting flood (Reply 168):
Quoting Stretch (Reply 166):
The Wall Street Journal is reporting new information on missing flight MH370, which U.S. investigators now suspect flew on long after it disappeared from civilian radar screens.

Link to WSJ article
http://tinyurl.com/m7jnd8x
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 188):
If the WSJ is right, that's why a red-eye flight was the one that disappeared. That may be why cell phones and chat apps showed communication active until the phones died. But what of the passengers? Executed? Holed up as captives somewhere? WOW. If true, it's unheard of. Another high-concept, low-tech terrorist plot? The EICAS data may include clues as to where the thing is, and presumably satellites and such are searching there right now. I'm imagining Seal Team Six and the equivalent Chinese folks locking and loading. Interesting that the Americans are so at odds with the rest of the world's investigators.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-12 22:00:54 and read 26407 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 190):
It was initially reported yesterday with no mention since and appears to have been unrelated.

Thanks. updated my post so that nobody takes it and runs with it.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Capt747Ret
Posted 2014-03-12 22:01:30 and read 26497 times.

The data feeds can be traced to the ground receiving stations which would give a good plot of its flight path.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-12 22:02:18 and read 26245 times.

To me, this sounds like the Malaysian's are backpeddling a bit but it's not really clear.

Malaysia: Radar Tracked Object Over Strait of Malacca Saturday Morning

Quote:
Life Raft Reported Found, Fishermen Say They Saw Low-Flying Plane

New information arose Wednedsday about the possible direction that the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner took Saturday after taking off from Kuala Lumpur.

A Royal Malaysian Air Force base tracked what it termed an unidentified object over the Strait of Malacca early Saturday morning after the last known civilian contact with Flight 370.....

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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-12 22:02:31 and read 26385 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 181):

Wow...this if true is much less than the 4-5 hours WSJ is reporting. Obviously source and info. needs to be confirmed.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-12 22:03:02 and read 26080 times.

The more info that gets released WITHOUT visual verification of an aircraft, the more bizzare this gets.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 22:03:50 and read 25981 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 191):

ACARS is a separate comms system from the others. It's not only for engine stuff though. You can even use for text communications with base.

I was assuming ACARS was not working.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 22:05:19 and read 25926 times.

Quoting Nav20 (Reply 184):
So if Mike Mckay is right, and really did see the aeroplane crashing, the authorities are just plain looking in the wrong places?
Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 187):
Quoting flood (Reply 163):
"BREAKING WSJ EXCLUSIVE: Engine monitoring data shows missing 777 was airborne for five hours -sources"
http://twitter.com/jonostrower/statu...62272

Makes sense and what many people thought. Given how heavily monitored the South China Sea is, this means it went out the Indian Ocean most likely. I also remember an eye witness who saw it at low elevation coming back over Malaysia. I guess they got this data from Rolls Royce ?

If Mike Mckay is correct then the engine monitoring data is wrong. If the engine monitoring data is correct then Mike Mckay is wrong. Awesome!

If the plane was hijacked, could the cockpit have been entered (let's say while a pilot used the toilet) without being seen by other passengers? I sat in row 1 on a TG 777-200 and I could not see the flight deck entry. Is the cockpit door visible from seats in the pax cabin? If the cockpit was entered by just one or two people and nobody (including cabin crew) saw and the plane kept flying for hours then how were the passengers to know that the plane was taken? They would have had no reason to try to make phone calls. Also, if a FA suspected something and called the cockpit, the pilots might not have been able to say much other than what the hijackers told them to say... Just another theory...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 22:09:13 and read 25050 times.

If engine data is sent via ACARS, then why wasn't it mentioned that ACARS was still working for hours?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 22:11:12 and read 25268 times.

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 196):
To me, this sounds like the Malaysian's are backpeddling a bit but it's not really clear.

Malaysia: Radar Tracked Object Over Strait of Malacca Saturday Morning

Quote:
Life Raft Reported Found, Fishermen Say They Saw Low-Flying Plane

"The Times also reported on Wednesday that a different group of fishermen found a life raft with the word “Boarding” on it ten nautical miles from Port Dickson, although the life raft later sunk while the Kuala Linggi Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency attempted to bring the raft on board."

I would not be surprised if something could not be successfully picked up out of the water...      

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:13:37]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-12 22:14:34 and read 24299 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 200):
If Mike Mckay is correct then the engine monitoring data is wrong. If the engine monitoring data is correct then Mike Mckay is wrong. Awesome!

I'll take engine data over a guy on an oil rig. No offense to him, but witnesses are notoriously unreliable.

That assumes the engine data story is accurate, which needs to be confirmed somehow. But even before this, I'm just disinclined to believe a single witness about anything, especially at night. I don't think he's making it up, but put yourself in his shoes - you see a plane fly overhead that you're not used to seeing, maybe it's got its landing lights on because it's below 10,000 feet, and, ya know, landing (witnesses often mistake landing lights as "fire"), then the next day you hear a plane has gone missing in the same general area of the world and at the same general time. What are you going to conclude?

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:16:31]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 22:15:30 and read 24182 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 183):
I'm not sure they would be heard outside of the water, but I could be wrong.

They drop sonobuoys into the water - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eidMDdMK38s

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: philask
Posted 2014-03-12 22:15:31 and read 24290 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 201):

If engine data is sent via ACARS, then why wasn't it mentioned that ACARS was still working for hours?

The Malaysian authorities have been deliberately sketchy about answering questions about ACARS. They have never absolutely denied anything.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: timpdx
Posted 2014-03-12 22:16:12 and read 24054 times.

hoooleeey wow. this incident is surely worthy of some 5000 posts. After reading the latest WSJ story, kinda speechless at this point.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 22:17:12 and read 24071 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 203):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 200):
If Mike Mckay is correct then the engine monitoring data is wrong. If the engine monitoring data is correct then Mike Mckay is wrong. Awesome!

I'll take engine data over a guy on an oil rig. No offense to him, but witnesses are notoriously unreliable.

If the engine data is correct (which I'd also believe more so than a witness), then this makes for more possibilities...

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-12 22:17:52 and read 23900 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 200):
If the plane was hijacked, could the cockpit have been entered (let's say while a pilot used the toilet) without being seen by other passengers?

Not likely. The door would be closed and locked on exit. Typically an F/A is required to be on the flight deck in such a situation. Not sure about Malaysia policies.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: dcsben
Posted 2014-03-12 22:20:09 and read 23280 times.

If it is indeed true that the a/c kept on flying for 4-5 more hours, then it is again quite possible that the transponder was turned off and the plane flown somewhere intentionally.

Isn't it strange that the plane would coincidentally go off radar after just having signed off with "good night" on the Malaysian side, and before establishing contact with the Vietnamese? This way a long period of time would pass before either side notices something unusual.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 22:20:10 and read 23189 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 208):
Not likely. The door would be closed and locked on exit. Typically an F/A is required to be on the flight deck in such a situation. Not sure about Malaysia policies.

With what is known about the FO (the flight from HKT when two women were supposedly entertained in the cockpit for the entire flight - pics to back up the story too) I don't think that MH policies really matter...

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:23:45]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2014-03-12 22:20:24 and read 23148 times.

Anyone think that China is going to take control of this investigation?

This investigation is an embarrassment to the fine Malaysian people

tortugamon

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Capt747Ret
Posted 2014-03-12 22:20:40 and read 23126 times.

In addition to giving us a generalized flight path, I believe the data can also be reduced to provide altitude and airspeed for those extra hours.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-12 22:20:46 and read 23084 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 200):

Yes, one or the other is wrong, because both can't be right. Just wondering why no other witness than Mr. McKay. Did he see any explosion upon impact? Could it have been something else that he saw? The WSJ piece is very intriguing and aligns with a lot that has been discussed here. If I had to choose, the WSJ info has more credence than Mr. Mckay's sighting. This is still a puzzle in every sense!!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-12 22:21:05 and read 23271 times.

5 hours @ 777 cruise speed of 512 knots = 2560 nautical miles. That's a LOT of globe in that radius.

As far as hijacking theories, it doesn't appear to include any of the likely places a hijacked aircraft would be taken, except perhaps NW Sumatra...which would only take an hour or so to reach, from the last known position, so they would have to be flying in circles somewhere for hours.

The only place within that radius that a 777 might be successfully landed and hidden, to my mind, is...

Well, nowhere, really.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-12 22:23:42 and read 22951 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 211):
Anyone think that China is going to take control of this investigation?

I think the NTSB and US Navy did just that, informally.

Also, do you all realize who did the WSJ piece? Jon Ostrower (FlightBlogger), an a.net alumnus.

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:25:44]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 22:24:07 and read 22474 times.

Quoting dcsben (Reply 209):
Isn't it strange that the plane would coincidentally go off radar after just having signed off with "good night" on the Malaysian side, and before establishing contact with the Vietnamese? This way a long period of time would pass before either side notices something unusual.

If it was intentional, they knew the area well.

I'm just wondering, what's the motive?!

I hope to god they disprove this WSJ story because if it's true, that plane could be anywhere. It may be lost forever.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-12 22:27:21 and read 22096 times.

$ hour radius map that is out there.

Quoting dcsben (Reply 209):
Isn't it strange that the plane would coincidentally go off radar after just having signed off with "good night" on the Malaysian side, and before establishing contact with the Vietnamese? This way a long period of time would pass before either side notices something unusual.

Yes, it is strange. A big clue that was just out there.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2014-03-12 22:27:23 and read 22013 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 216):
I'm just wondering, what's the motive?!

Does anyone know what type of cargo MH 370 was carrying? Perhaps this might very well be a reason?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-12 22:27:52 and read 22072 times.

I have to say...the last three nights, right about this time at night, some new piece of information has appeared that makes me say, quite entirely out loud,

"What the fuuuu...."

This is all so bizarre.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2014-03-12 22:29:03 and read 21714 times.

I'm really sick of this story! Some individual must know where this is and thousands of dollars are being spent with tons of made up junk!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 22:30:34 and read 21314 times.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 218):
Does anyone know what type of cargo MH 370 was carrying?

As far as I know that has not been made public.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-12 22:30:40 and read 21607 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 216):
I hope to god they disprove this WSJ story because if it's true, that plane could be anywhere. It may be lost forever.

Read the WSJ piece more carefully:

At one briefing, according to this person, officials were told investigators are actively pursuing the notion that the plane was diverted "with the intention of using it later for another purpose."

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-12 22:31:49 and read 21327 times.

I wonder if any of the pilots had financial difficulties?

Also, how come it has taken five days to find out that the engine monitoring data suggests that the plane flew for 5 more hours?

The longer this goes on, the more I also think "What the fuuuu..."

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-12 22:33:16 and read 21195 times.

This breaking : nothing at Chinese sat site

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/13/world/...irlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: CO953
Posted 2014-03-12 22:34:29 and read 20799 times.

Well the Wall Street Journal article gives me a bit of cover to say this... and it is sheerly speculation.

The possibility is very remote, I have been holding my tongue for a few days now. But I have been wondering if some group decided to actually take an airliner for later use, a la 9/11.

If it were true - that some group had control of part of a country (such as al Qaeda reportedly is retaking parts of Iraq and Afghanistan), would they not possibly have resources as simple as a landing strip and some fuel, to allow a plane to take off again later for terror purposes?

So then the question would be... what would have been the realistic range of the 777? If it actually landed, instead of crashing, what path could it have taken to have avoided being caught on radar far afield of the disappearance location? If it had flown on for five more hours, how much fuel would be left in the tanks...e.g. how much stored/available fuel would have to be in reserve at the landing airport to give it some range on the next flight?

Please do not take me wrong - I am not trying to be a conspiracist... but I do like to examine options.

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:38:09]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-12 22:36:20 and read 20431 times.

Quoting philask (Reply 205):
The Malaysian authorities have been deliberately sketchy about answering questions about ACARS. They have never absolutely denied anything.

Yes, that seems likely. Based on the new information, the person who took control of the plane knows a lot about the 777 but did not realize that ACARS data is still being transmitted (apparently without the location infromation, though).

I thought that a suiciadal pilot crashing the plane into the ocean somewhere was the most probable explanation. Some people suggested even more outlandish scenarios like hijacking the plane for a future attack, and now even those kind of scenarios don't seem impossible and according to the WSJ article US investigators are examing also those scenarios.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 22:36:35 and read 20469 times.

Quoting Capt747Ret (Reply 195):
The data feeds can be traced to the ground receiving stations which would give a good plot of its flight path.

One question though; if it were to fly over open ocean how would there be ground receiving stations (other than on small Islands)? This means that the aircraft either flew close to or over land. Wonder why the WSJ article did not raise this point. If my understanding is correct then that rules out the vast Indian Ocean on the southwest and the vast open Pacific Ocean on the east. Thoughts? Otherwise, does the engine data get transmitted via satellite in which case there would not be any ground stations involved and there would be no flight path information!!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2014-03-12 22:36:53 and read 20875 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 215):

If I was the NTSB I would stay well clear of any microphone. Just keep releasing facts as they come in.

I have a feeling India military radar is going to enter into this investigation in a big way. I am sure RR and Boeing would prefer to stay in the shadows here.

This is ridiculous news and if it came from the Malaysian investigators I would not believe it for the minute that it would hang out there before they issue a correction and backtrack.

tortugamon

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 22:38:57 and read 20489 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 222):
Read the WSJ piece more carefully:

At one briefing, according to this person, officials were told investigators are actively pursuing the notion that the plane was diverted "with the intention of using it later for another purpose."

Well, either

1) They are speculating

2) They know way more than we do

:/

This is so so so so weird.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-12 22:40:14 and read 20191 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 220):
I'm really sick of this story!

With all due respect, this is not a story. This is a tragedy for some 239+ families. Let's try to remember that.

While the WSJ tweet about 5 hrs of ACARS data is interesting - I'll wait for some kind of confirmation. I find it very hard to credit that this was known and not reported. I also find it hard to credit this was "just discovered". Rolls Royce reported some days ago that they received just 2 engine reports.
Why would Roller say that if it was not true?

Note - the WSJ report starts out with

"U.S. investigators suspect" Emphasize "suspect"

Well - I suspect it may have flown for hours too - but that damn well does not mean I know it.
Show me the data folks.

Also - "according to two people familiar with the details" Who. Where are they. Why have we not heard it.

While I would like it to be true - as many have noted, it may give us clues - I am very skeptical.
I would also require - yes require- to be told why this was just noted.

BTW - why only engine data. Was that the only part of ACARS operating? ACARS sends far more than just engine data.

Well - it is morning in Malaysia, night here. I will see what we see in the morning.

-bg

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:43:00]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-12 22:41:23 and read 20290 times.

Quoting philask (Reply 205):
The Malaysian authorities have been deliberately sketchy about answering questions about ACARS. They have never absolutely denied anything.

Well, we had this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sia-airlines-idUSBREA291D520140310

The Malaysian passenger jet that disappeared on Saturday did not make automatic contact with a flight data-monitoring system after vanishing from radar screens, two people familiar with the matter said.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Enobar
Posted 2014-03-12 22:42:03 and read 19815 times.

Wikipedia lists the range of the 772ER as 14,300km... I would presume that is with a reasonable payload though isn't it? If it were loaded with a maximum fill of fuel and a cargo hold containing things that none of us really want to entertain the thought of... It could reach pretty much anywhere couldn't it?


I sincerely hope the WSJ is talking to a crackpot in a tin foil hat, because the possibility of the plane being stolen and later 're-used' is nothing short of terrifying.

If the plane was really transmitting ACARS data back though, does that make the entire SAR for show only? If they knew that it was potentially thousands of km away from the area, I can't imagine they could waste so many resources looking where they knew the plane wasn't going to be!

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 22:43:19 and read 19836 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 228):
I have a feeling India military radar is going to enter into this investigation in a big way.

Why? Do you have more information than we do? Just curious.

India has already joined though - http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio...ing-MH370-Japan-India-join-search/

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2014-03-12 22:46:17 and read 19092 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 215):
I think the NTSB and US Navy did just that, informally.

In my view the "Malaysian Authorities" are not up to this job. These last several days have been completely chaotic. It's long past time for some adult supervision. If the WSJ story is correct, this SAR just went from challenging to insane. They need a professional and experienced SAR management team and resources well beyond what Malaysia can coordinate and use effectively.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-12 22:45:29 and read 19177 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 231):
two people familiar with the matter said

I am really starting to doubt this "people familiar with the matter" thing. At this stage nobody is familiar with anything now  .

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-12 22:46:41 and read 19287 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 190):
Ah, thanks... was surprised it disappeared so quick but I guess you being a mod explains that  

Being a mod has some benefits besides the private jet  .

Quoting dcsben (Reply 209):
Isn't it strange that the plane would coincidentally go off radar after just having signed off with "good night" on the Malaysian side, and before establishing contact with the Vietnamese? This way a long period of time would pass before either side notices something unusual.

That's personally why I think a crew member took control and took the aircraft somewhere else. That's either an unbelievably incredible time for things to go wrong, or someone had other plans... Either way it's sketchy.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 211):
Anyone think that China is going to take control of this investigation?

I think China and US are going to take the lead. By the sound of it Vietnam is beyond fed up, and Malaysia isn't doing a proper job, especially when it comes to the press.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 215):
I think the NTSB and US Navy did just that, informally.

If they have the resources they should. Be a pseudo lead. It was a US produced aircraft that many US and international airlines use. If they can do a better job, they should work to find out what happened in case it was mechanical.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 215):
Also, do you all realize who did the WSJ piece? Jon Ostrower (FlightBlogger), an a.net alumnus.

He's a true avgeek. That's part of the reason I believe this more than some random aviation writer from CNN. If you don't follow him on twitter you should, the guy has some great informational tweets.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 225):
The possibility is very remote, I have been holding my tongue for a few days now. But I have been wondering if some group decided to actually take an airliner for later use, a la 9/11

Someone mentioned this a couple threads ago (not sure which, there has been so many I don't think anybody could keep up). I think that may be part of the reason the US is taking the lead. They are worried about the security risk associated with a plane having landed somewhere and possibly be used as a weapon, whether that would be in the US or abroad. But it does beg the question, why Malaysia Airlines? Malaysia is a pretty neutral country. Easy target perhaps? I don't know, it's scary to think what could have happened. It's sad that we ,instead of worrying about recovering about the passengers, we have to consider the fact that the aircraft could be used as a weapon...
Pat

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-12 22:47:11 and read 19160 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 230):
why only engine data. Was that the only part of ACARS operating? ACARS sends far more than just engine data.

Its most probably added by RR the sole purpose of contracted maintenence, I think we all suspect by now that Malaysian does not contract for ACARS as such even though they imply that they do.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: SamH123
Posted 2014-03-12 22:47:31 and read 19133 times.

I did not see it mentioned in this thread that at the press conference yesterday it was said that:

"We are looking into four areas: one; hijacking, two; sabotage, three; psychological problems of the passengers and crew and four; personal problems among the passengers and crew."

The fact a mechanical problem is not even one of the 4 areas shocked me - they seem to be ruling out the plane crashing anywhere near where it went off radar

[Edited 2014-03-12 22:48:30]

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-12 22:48:22 and read 18869 times.

Quoting Enobar (Reply 232):
If the plane was really transmitting ACARS data back though, does that make the entire SAR for show only? If they knew that it was potentially thousands of km away from the area, I can't imagine they could waste so many resources looking where they knew the plane wasn't going to be!

Apparently the ACARS data contains only some engine parameters and no location information in this case. Theoretically the plane could have circled around the last known location for four hours before crashing. And as any potential explanation is extremely unlikely, I can see how the SAR effort is justified.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-12 22:48:46 and read 19087 times.

Has anyone read this person's twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/flyingwithfish

seems like this person might know a lot more than is being told to us....

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-12 22:49:01 and read 18935 times.

The interesting thing about the WSJ article is it contradicts earlier reports that a lesser amount of EHM snapshots were sent. The RR systems typically take 3 snapshots per flight at takeoff, climb, and cruise, but more can be taken (limited by cost).

The Trent model engines can provide 3 types of EHM report data: snapshots during flight, abnormalities, and end of flight summaries. If MH370 flew for 4+ hours, as reported, it would be interesting to note if unusual engine conditions were captured.

EHM data is sent to ground stations using ACARS during flight. It will be interesting to see what comes out because the EHM data is technically property of the airline, despite being sent to the OEM.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-12 22:49:12 and read 18865 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 230):
Also - "according to two people familiar with the details" Who. Where are they. Why have we not heard it.

Expecting journalists to reveal sources who are probably revealing things that require security clearance is naive. NTSB investigators are not amateurs and neither is the Wall Street Journal. I trust their reporting more than anything we've heard in the past few days.

The press conference today should be interesting.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: sipadan
Posted 2014-03-12 22:49:49 and read 19110 times.

This has CAPTAIN written all over it, perhaps in collusion with others (though doubtful). Clearly, info has been suppressed throughout the course of investigation by US govt. in interest of national security. Will engine data show shut down, flame out or other???? Imagine this info is also known but hasn't been leaked??????

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: philask
Posted 2014-03-12 22:49:56 and read 18884 times.

Quoting SamH123 (Reply 238):
The fact a mechanical problem is not even one of the 4 areas really shocked me - the people involved seem to be ruling out the plane being anyway near where it went off radar

Actually, and I don't blame you for missing it in the previous 16 threads... This was commented on several times, but in the light of this new information about "flying on" it does suggest that authorities knew that it flew on...

I believe there's a lot known that is not being made public, maybe behind the scenes negotiations?

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-12 22:51:49 and read 18596 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 228):
If I was the NTSB I would stay well clear of any microphone. Just keep releasing facts as they come in.

I'm willing to bet that is exactly what they will do. They are professionals and don't talk until they have something. Maybe the police doing the investigation in Malaysia should take some notes..

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 228):
I am sure RR and Boeing would prefer to stay in the shadows here.

If I were a betting man I would say there will be no official statements on it unless they are rejecting the story. If it is true not a word will be said. Not after how long it has been kept quiet.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 230):
Rolls Royce reported some days ago that they received just 2 engine reports.
Why would Roller say that if it was not true?

Perhaps they were told by investigators to not say anything to prevent people from getting nervous? I know when I heard the news I was shocked. It changed my mind from 50% chance of mechanical issue 50% crime related to leaning more towards some kind of criminal act.
Pat

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-12 22:51:50 and read 18654 times.

Quoting dcsben (Reply 209):
If it is indeed true that the a/c kept on flying for 4-5 more hours, then it is again quite possible that the transponder was turned off and the plane flown somewhere intentionally.

I read that. But it makes no sense. Which terrorist group in that part of the world, giving the ass kicking they´ve been receiving for the past decade and a half, has the infrastructure to carry out such an operation? I can buy they managed to hijack the plane and fly it somewhere, land it (it´s happened before) but then prepare a 777 for a future operation? With no government in that part of the world knowing about it? It sounds like a bad Bond movie plot.

The only place it could have gone if flying West is to countries that are not going to be able to hide something like this for such a long time, or not knowing about it.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 223):
Also, how come it has taken five days to find out that the engine monitoring data suggests that the plane flew for 5 more hours?

I would guess that it´s data that has taken a while to analyze and then re analyze.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: chrisrad
Posted 2014-03-12 22:52:36 and read 18522 times.

It's amazing how this whole story has turned in just 1 hour. I wonder if this will be mentioned in tonights press conference.

Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-12 22:54:14 and read 19579 times.

Hi Everyone,

This thread has gotten long. Part 18 has been created and can be found here MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

All posts made after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.
Regards,
Pat


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