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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-13 10:04:31 and read 64408 times.

Due to length part 19 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 20.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome.


PLEASE KEEP IN MIND:


**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; could we please keep science fiction theories and content related to possible future movie rights out of these threads? ****

**** Please do not repeat questions and scenarios that were covered and discussed in previous threads and which do not contribute in a constructive manner towards the real topic any longer. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

**** Once again please be respectful towards other users and keep the forum rules and regulations in mind when posting in the forums. Should there be any rule violations, please bring this to the attention of the moderators by making use of the “suggest deletion function”. ****



Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: B-HOP
Posted 2014-03-13 10:08:14 and read 64457 times.

I was the last in the previous post, so I try again

Did anyone feel fuel load mentioned say something, if its a five and a half hour flight, why then the Captain take an extra two hour worth of fuel and more to be burnt enroute, was fog forcasted in Beijing? No wonder MH loses money, does that gave a red herring away?

Have backgrounds of both pilots been throughly checked, (skipper's charity work) nor the crew or the Iranian men with European passport holder.Malaysian officials. Does the four hours endurace gave them enough time to Afganistan or the more 'difficult' side of Pakistan or other -stans? Though it would be hard to get un-notice if they follow European flight's route and overflew India, as there are dozens of flight bound for Europe at the time, but I hope none of these things were true. If lower attitude, how low as low flying burn a lot more fuel. Have all the ground staff also been checked?

At the moment, Malaysian officals are losing the plot how to handle the situations they try to deny any possible links, the eariler thins come clean, the less suspisicion towards (cover up) it is.

What about maintanece record, any problem with pressuration with the craft, could be just de-pressuration, in-capicated crew as crew try to return but either way chance for those on board are slim.

Kev

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 102IAHexpress
Posted 2014-03-13 10:08:53 and read 64489 times.

from the last thread.

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 104):
WSJ has probably read too much from blogs like this and failed to separate fact from speculations. Very poor journalism IMO.
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 125):

WSJ is a crap paper no offense. I watched them closely over foreign affairs issues and like 80% of what they write is unsubstantiated much like the current article. There is actually no evidence at all in the article.

Looks like the WSJ was right. will you guys retract what you posted? I doubt you will, but prove me wrong.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 10:13:22 and read 64290 times.

The Kidd is apparently going to search the North Malacca Straits area, so the four hour flight doesn't match that, either.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...tes#block-5321df8be4b0bde291cd076a

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-13 10:13:37 and read 64313 times.

There is one possible sighting via Tomnod (article in Finnish) :

http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/Tutkija+ar...+kadonnut+lentokone/a1394680271317

The photo looks very interesting, does not resemble ship at all.

[Edited 2014-03-13 10:15:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2014-03-13 10:14:11 and read 64097 times.

Just heard the two US destroyer ships are going to search more south and west of the current area. Seems they may.... or may not no something. I also like the idea of mid air collision with maybe a fighter jet of some kind.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-13 10:14:15 and read 64123 times.

Per US there is indication that Jet crashed in Indian Ocean

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...hed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802


Could this be it? Hope it turns out to be true!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2014-03-13 10:14:30 and read 64093 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 241):
Unless US Navy, RR or Boeing confirm what WSJ and ABC say (and contradict Malaysian official reports), I would give them "zero" value to both WSJ and ABC articles.

Due respect, I think it is plainly obvious to nearly everyone but you that it is the "Malaysian Officials" who have zero credibility at this point. I do not understand how anyone could conceivably defend the Malaysian government on this subject given what we've all seen and heard this week. Reality Check.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-13 10:15:16 and read 64107 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 248):
To shut off ACARS someone would have to enter the E/E bay via the main deck access panel and tamper with the AIMS cabinet in the back of the bay.


If you just pull the CB's for the VHF, HF, and SATCOM which I believe are located in the cockpit you've in effect disabled the ACARS.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-13 10:16:43 and read 63917 times.

Quote:
Stephen Trimble ‏@FG_STrim 6m

Just spoke to US Navy: USS Kidd moving now to western area of Straits of Malacca
at request of Malaysian govt to search for #MH370

Stephen Trimble ‏@FG_STrim 49s

@AirlineFlyer US Navy is emphasizing the USS Kidd are not going deep into
the Indian Ocean, but staying within the Straits of Malacca.

http://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/444157848055197696
http://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/444159541236989952

Haven't seen that bolded statement before,

[Edited 2014-03-13 10:17:19]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-13 10:17:58 and read 63960 times.

Quote:
India’s search team has been asked to explore “very specific coordinates in the Andaman Sea,” said Syed Akbaruddin, a spokesman for the Indian foreign ministry, without elaborating on those coordinates.

Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...to-have-flown-with-beacon-off.html

Also, Reuters on data: https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/444156014141526016

[Edited 2014-03-13 10:20:46]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: gr325
Posted 2014-03-13 10:19:21 and read 63700 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 4):
There is one possible sighting via Tomnod (article in Finnish) :

http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/Tutkija+ar...+kadonnut+lentokone/a1394680271317

The photo looks very interesting, does not resemble ship at all.

Dont want to sound stupid, but couldnt that be a whale?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-13 10:19:58 and read 63705 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 5):
I also like the idea of mid air collision with maybe a fighter jet of some kind.
Quoting 747megatop (Reply 6):
Hope it turns out to be true!

poor choice of words, come on.... 239 people, remember????

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: bellancacf
Posted 2014-03-13 10:21:15 and read 63458 times.

Would anyone object if I reposted this; it was the last item in Thread 19, which got locked as I was writing it!

I slept on this before tossing in my opinion, and now I really ought to check the intervening posts, but that would take a long time, so, apologies if this has been covered.

In thread 17, post 146, dandelany put up images which showed various levels of image processing of an image from ca. 7.54 N and 103.01E.

For what it's worth, I'm a retired microscopist/physiologist/programmer who worked on tissue structure at the limits of light resolution and got pretty heavily into digital images, to the point of writing an image processing package and feature extraction and quantitation scripts.

The final couple of images that dandelany posted I have to say I find 95% convincing. I think that's a plane. It would make sense, I think. The Gulf of Thailand is so shallow that if you were to stand a 777 on its nose at a location with average depth, the tail empennage would be above the surface. If there were a planar, reflective, high albedo object on the bottom, then, with illumination and viewing direction both aligned with the normal to the object's surface, there very well might be an increased return back up to and through the surface of the water. Not to make a tight statistical case for it, but consider that if there were just a "V" shape in the image (wings, say), then you'd consider a certain probability of it being your "target". But put another shape of the right size at the right relative position, and the probability of it being just coincidence ("noise") drops sharply. Put yet another shape in the image at the desired location and it drops even more.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that there is a plane lying flat on the bottom at that location.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-13 10:21:57 and read 63469 times.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 2):

Looks like the WSJ was right. will you guys retract what you posted? I doubt you will, but prove me wrong.

Noooooooooooo. USN confirmed its sending USS KIidd off Malacca but technically in the Indian Ocean. That's hardly a 4-5 journey that WSJ claimed and MH and RR both deny engine transmission.

Whats your source that WSJ is right?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-13 10:22:10 and read 63227 times.

Quoting B-HOP (Reply 1):

Did anyone feel fuel load mentioned say something, if its a five and a half hour flight, why then the Captain take an extra two hour worth of fuel and more to be burnt enroute, was fog forcasted in Beijing? No wonder MH loses money, does that gave a red herring away?

Is this a serious question? Do you think airliners land and make it to the gate with almost 0 fuel, or do you think they carry extra fuel for diverts, emergencies, changing weather, etc?

Plus, I don't even think pilots are able to tell the refuelers to add more fuel, I could be wrong on that regard, but it would be very bizarre if an airliner carried 5.5 hours worth of fuel for a 5.5 hour flight

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-13 10:24:05 and read 63002 times.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 2):

Looks like the WSJ was right.

Really? Have you not seen the past 300 responses to WSJ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 10:24:35 and read 63010 times.

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 9):
Quote:
Stephen Trimble ‏@FG_STrim 6m

Just spoke to US Navy: USS Kidd moving now to western area of Straits of Malacca
at request of Malaysian govt to search for #MH370

Stephen Trimble ‏@FG_STrim 49s

@AirlineFlyer US Navy is emphasizing the USS Kidd are not going deep into
the Indian Ocean, but staying within the Straits of Malacca.

As I posted towards the end of the last thread before it was locked, I recall back directly after the loss of this flight, the Malaysian authorities did announce that they had enlisted the help of the U.S./NTSB in interpreting their own radar images of the airspace over the Malaysian peninsula in the hours that followed MH-370's disappearance. With the previous statement (good luck finding it!) that 'Engine Data' not responsible for the focus on the Indian Ocean search area, I can only conclude that the aforementioned radar image examination provided at least sufficient evidence of an unidentified craft flying over Malaysia and into the Adaman Sea/western Straits of Malacca.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-13 10:26:57 and read 62747 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 14):
Whats your source that WSJ is right?

I guess it's the always popular "random guy on twitter".  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-13 10:26:57 and read 62758 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 158):
As interesting as the many theories are, remember Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

I agree with Occam's Razor. In this case the aircraft said "good night" to Malaysia ATC and never checked in with Vietnam ATC. They would simply change the frequency and immediately call in. Never happened.

So what is the simplest solution?
1. They never dialed in intentionally. Logic tells you they didn't have a catastrophic failure at the exact moment of transfer between two countries while changing radio frequencies. No debris at that location because the plane isn't there. (I think I have a better chance of winning Mega-Millions forty weeks in a row.)
2. They wanted Malaysia ATC to stop tracking them, and they never asked Vietnam to track them.
3. They disabled all transponder transmission, most likely pulled the fuse. The intent was not to be tracked.
4. They then went wherever the went with a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
5. The reason why the aircraft can't be found is they don't want to be found. Occam's razor.
6. The reason why conflicting information is coming from the military is they know far more than they are saying.

Why would you not want to be found?
7. If you can land and hide an airplane in a third word landing strip you could have a $300,000,000 asset.
8. If I were to want something perhaps it makes more sense to do it through the correct channels not through the media.
9. Suicide fails the razor.
10. Hijack is possible.
11. Theft is possible. (Think somalian theft of ships)
12. Catastrophic failure fails the razor.
13. Military intervention is possible.

I would look at every landing strip within six hours of KUL that could land a B777.
Remember bombers were hidden in WWII from view through on ground camouflage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-13 10:29:54 and read 62534 times.

Quoting gr325 (Reply 11):


Dont want to sound stupid, but couldnt that be a whale?

Well, in the article a leading investigator from the Finnish Accident investigation Center says it is definitely interesting and should be checked out. Seems to have 3 stripes and that plane has three stripes in some places.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 10:30:15 and read 62315 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
I would look at every landing strip within six hours of KUL that could land a B777.
Remember bombers were hidden in WWII from view through on ground camouflage.

If that's your result of your Occam's razor interpretation, then I think we are failing to understand the premise behind Occam's razor. The most *likely* explanation is hikjacking by pirates and landing somewhere secret?   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-13 10:30:32 and read 62320 times.

Let's talk about this theory.

Getting shot down by missile or collision with drone or Stealth does sound possible, this could be the reason why there was no distress call, Pilots might not had an opportunity to do anything at all.

However saying that why plane changed it's course towards Mallaca Straits? does that mean it changed the course by mistake hence it was shot down or someone forced jet to change it's course hence it was shot down? this still remains big question.

Indian navy moving at special co-ordinates, USS Kidd going to western area of Mallaca Straits, interesting development.

[Edited 2014-03-13 10:34:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-13 10:32:59 and read 62065 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
Really? Have you not seen the past 300 responses to WSJ?

The separate Reuters link (in my reply above) does lend credibility to the WSJ.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 10):
Also, Reuters on data: https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/444156014141526016

It's obvious that you have a bone to pick with the WSJ, but more and more news is coming in that is in line with what they have said.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 10:39:21 and read 62698 times.

From The Guardian

Quote:
The Pentagon has told the Guardian that the US is moving the USS Kidd destroyer northwest through the Strait of Malacca.

A Pentagon spokesman said he could not confirm that the Pentagon was moving the USS Kidd to search the Indian Ocean but that it is searching the Strait of Malacca, the same area searched by a P-3C surveillance aircraft a few days ago.

The Malaysians requested that a ship come and search the same area the plane had already searched, the spokesman said.

So apparently the "incompetent"Malaysian authorities are still in charge and the US Navy is OK with it.
The WSJ report about ACARS being sent for 4 hours after loss of contact has been dismissed by several sources.

So much for ABC and WSJ credibility.

The whole confusion has been driven by:
1) Irresponsible news outlets that have been spreading rumors (in order to increase readership and hence advertising revenue)
2) Poor translation of Malaysian official statements.

Yes, the Malaysian authorities have released very little information - because they don't (and can't) share unverified data. It's better to stay quiet than spread rumors. If they are not sharing more information it's because they don't have any.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 10:39:49 and read 63300 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):

Why does suicide fail the razor? All that is unexplained in a suicide theory, really, is (1) where the second pilot was during the hypothetical suicide and (2) why didn't the suicidal party want to be found? Otherwise, it rather makes sense, and IMO lot more sense than your scenario.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: affirmative
Posted 2014-03-13 10:45:25 and read 63749 times.

Right, I have sifted through the last 10 or so threads. I baffled as to the copious amount of duplicate questions and lack of understanding of given answers.

I have a question though that sort of is a theory. If the ACARS installed in MH fleet is of the 'cheaper' version that only gives updates at given intervals wouldn't there be reporting at those intervals if the aircraft kept flying, transponder or not? If there's no info at all doesn't that point to catastrophic turn of events? Or is it in fact that MH doesn't have ACARS activated other than for engines? Both ACARS messages was received by RR in derby which leads me to believe it's the part of a pay per hour engine deal or similar. If there's no ACARS for the rest of the airframe that explains the lack of further messages.

And why would they turn back other than for a fairly serious issue, if they in fact turned back..? For some reason I can't get the eyewitness report from the oil rig out of my head. On a clear night a large burning object would easily be visible for 50-70km which was the approximated distance (f.ex I saw the space shuttle launch from Miami and that's more than 100miles.

Foul play? There is a tiny possibility IMHO but Malaysia is majority Muslim so I can't see why they would be the object of attack unless the target was china, but then a Chinese aircraft would make more sense.

Abduction (not the alien version)? Why go through the hassle of stealing a T7 when there are cargo planes. Getting 250 people off your hands can't be an easy task. Unless, and it's a bit far fetched, you're trying to get a big ransom payment which I feel is very far fetched.

Well, a mix of theories and a question.. I don't think anyone here will solve this mystery, mainly due to the massive lack of information, but with a conversation we can at least get better educated once the mystery is getting closer to being solved.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: richierich
Posted 2014-03-13 10:45:34 and read 64773 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
So what is the simplest solution?
1. They never dialed in intentionally. Logic tells you they didn't have a catastrophic failure at the exact moment of transfer between two countries while changing radio frequencies. No debris at that location because the plane isn't there. (I think I have a better chance of winning Mega-Millions forty weeks in a row.)
2. They wanted Malaysia ATC to stop tracking them, and they never asked Vietnam to track them.
3. They disabled all transponder transmission, most likely pulled the fuse. The intent was not to be tracked.
4. They then went wherever the went with a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
5. The reason why the aircraft can't be found is they don't want to be found. Occam's razor.
6. The reason why conflicting information is coming from the military is they know far more than they are saying.

Why would you not want to be found?
7. If you can land and hide an airplane in a third word landing strip you could have a $300,000,000 asset.
8. If I were to want something perhaps it makes more sense to do it through the correct channels not through the media.
9. Suicide fails the razor.
10. Hijack is possible.
11. Theft is possible. (Think somalian theft of ships)
12. Catastrophic failure fails the razor.
13. Military intervention is possible.

I would look at every landing strip within six hours of KUL that could land a B777.
Remember bombers were hidden in WWII from view through on ground camouflage.
Quoting Trin (Reply 21):
If that's your result of your Occam's razor interpretation, then I think we are failing to understand the premise behind Occam's razor. The most *likely* explanation is hikjacking by pirates and landing somewhere secret?

Agreed, Trin.
Billreid, the simplest answer is that the plane crashed on its intended course (minimal changes of heading) and the wreckage hasn't been found due to size of floating debris and total incompetance by the search agencies involved. Looking for floating debris of a very small size and quanitity (assuming most of a B777 would sink) is no easy task on something the size of the Gulf of Thailand. That is the simplest answer.

Regarding #7, what do you even mean? What friggin use is a $300M machine if you cannot use it? I'm sorry, 7-12 don't make a lot of sense on the list.

[Edited 2014-03-13 10:49:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: packcheer
Posted 2014-03-13 10:46:06 and read 64565 times.

I have been reading the past 19 parts and just wanted to throw in the two theories I see most likely.

1) mechanical/communications/instrument failure.
Some issue that made them unable to/ significantly hindered communication and navigation ability. They circled back towards KUL but overflew the island, then at sometime later realized they did, turned back, but didnt make it.

2) Piracy - yes we call it traditionally hijacking, but piracy and ransom would explain the lack of debris, crash sight, etc. How to locate the plane now that it has been taken captive.... thats above my head.

Im just a guy at work on a thursday... but after 19 completed parts, thats what I think..... at the moment at least

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: VC315
Posted 2014-03-13 10:47:41 and read 64424 times.

so i'll give it another go since just minutes after my last post Part 19 is locked.
-------------------
Is there a way we can have a sorted list of what Malaysian government / MAF / MH have been saying respectively since the accident? I think there are many conflicting infomration, and it wouldn't be the worst idea to compare them at this stage. And so far we've seen the so called offcial 'debunkings' are not reliable either, rather, many statements go back-and-forth (i.e. on whether the plane has turned and crossed the Malacca Strait). I gradualy to start thinking there's something more serious than an imcompetence in SAR coordination unfolding.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier, the press conference denied the WSJ report that the plance could have flown for another 4 hours or so, but we haven't heard a confirmatiton from either Boeing or RR about this. In this same light, IT IS THE PRESS CONFERENCE that is saying the Chinese satellite images are 'mistakes', but so far we have NOT heard anything from Chinese Government to confirm that statement. And the news articles about satellite images are still very much up and running on major Chinese websites (which is an indication the government approves it, or at least have no objection to it - given the history of news censoring). If they're indeed released 'by mistake', wouldn't them be taken down by now?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 10:48:55 and read 64352 times.

The numbers of the flight, 3 and 7 coincide with the month (March) and date (7th) of it's last know contact. Maybe just a coincidence though. I have read through some of the many threads in this 20 part topic, so If it has already been brought up, I apologize in advance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: richierich
Posted 2014-03-13 10:51:08 and read 63858 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 31):
The numbers of the flight, 3 and 7 coincide with the month (March) and date (7th) of it's last know contact. Maybe just a coincidence though. I have read through some of the many threads in this 20 part topic, so If it has already been brought up, I apologize in advance

Actually did not notice that before but what does this mean? Absolutely nothing...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: marktci
Posted 2014-03-13 10:53:04 and read 63571 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 31):
The numbers of the flight, 3 and 7 coincide with the month (March) and date (7th) of it's last know contact. Maybe just a coincidence though. I have read through some of the many threads in this 20 part topic, so If it has already been brought up, I apologize in advance.

You are aware that this was the March 8th flight, right?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 10:53:16 and read 63657 times.

Ok. I have been offline for some hrs but am I right, when reading some news sites and this forum, that 2 old rumors are now merged to 1 rumor:
- plane flew for 4 hours (based on engine mgt system (if IIRC this was denied this morning?))
- plane returned and flew over malaysia again (if IIRC this was denied yesterday))
=
Plane flew 4hrs heading towards india?

Wow. I wonder what the press conference will tell us tomorrow, because it is again coming from the press and notas an official statement is it?

Btw - i understand that the US is heading for this area, as every lead is a lead and needs to be investigated ofcourse. Lets hope they find it there, but it will take 24hrs to get there I understand..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 10:55:51 and read 63341 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
Plus, I don't even think pilots are able to tell the refuelers to add more fuel, I could be wrong on that regard, but it would be very bizarre if an airliner carried 5.5 hours worth of fuel for a 5.5 hour flight

You are wrong. They definitely can. Pilots have the final say on fuel load. If you constantly take additional fuel that isn't required, your employer will get upset, but it's entirely within your discretion to do so if for some reason you think you might need it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: OTF
Posted 2014-03-13 10:56:13 and read 63157 times.

Quoting 456 (Reply 34):
Ok. I have been offline for some hrs but am I right, when reading some news sites and this forum, that 2 old rumors are now merged to 1 rumor:
- plane flew for 4 hours (based on engine mgt system (if IIRC this was denied this morning?))
- plane returned and flew over malaysia again (if IIRC this was denied yesterday))
=
Plane flew 4hrs heading towards india?

Wow. I wonder what the press c

This has been debunked by RR, they lost contact with the engines at the same time contact was lost with everything else.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 10:57:16 and read 63409 times.

From the Guardian, a short time ago:

"The Pentagon has told the Guardian that the US is moving the USS Kidd destroyer northwest through the Strait of Malacca.

A Pentagon spokesman said he could not confirm that the Pentagon was moving the USS Kidd to search the Indian Ocean but that it is searching the Strait of Malacca, the same area searched by a P-3C surveillance aircraft a few days ago.
The Malaysians requested that a ship come and search the same area the plane had already searched, the spokesman said.

An earlier ABC News report quoted an unnamed “senior Pentagon official” as saying “We have an indication the plane went down in the Indian Ocean.” The Pentagon spokesman told the Guardian that he didn’t know “where ABC is getting that from.”

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-13 10:59:18 and read 62807 times.

Quoting OTF (Reply 36):
This has been debunked by RR, they lost contact with the engines at the same time contact was lost with everything else.

Why do we have to keep rehashing the same crap? RR has to go through investigators. What information is officially released has to be through them, and is dependent upon their reliability.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flyorski
Posted 2014-03-13 11:05:37 and read 61607 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 35):
You are wrong. They definitely can. Pilots have the final say on fuel load. If you constantly take additional fuel that isn't required, your employer will get upset, but it's entirely within your discretion to do so if for some reason you think you might need it.

That depends on the airline. With some airlines if the pilots want more they get it. With other airlines the pilots have to contact the flight dispatcher who sends a 2nd release to the fuel provider. I am not sure which is the policy for MH.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 11:05:53 and read 61624 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 37):
An earlier ABC News report quoted an unnamed “senior Pentagon official” as saying

One problem may be that with the incident having gone on this long with no result the media have started scraping the bottom of the barrel of their "unnamed senior officials" for anything they can get.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-13 11:10:51 and read 60566 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8):
If you just pull the CB's for the VHF, HF, and SATCOM which I believe are located in the cockpit you've in effect disabled the ACARS.

No. The circuit breakers are located in the E/E bay.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 38):
Why do we have to keep rehashing the same crap? RR has to go through investigators. What information is officially released has to be through them, and is dependent upon their reliability.

Yes, and worth noting again that the raw EHM data is the intellectual property of the airline (MAS) not the OEM (RR).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hz747300
Posted 2014-03-13 11:14:37 and read 59702 times.

I think this just proves that anything can happen. In this day and age, we cannot find a modern jetliner after six days in what has to be a relatively tight area, and that blows my mind. AF crashed in open water in one of the largest bodies of water and it was found--debris relatively quickly, the rest after an intense search.

I am baffled that we cannot find anything!

If they did land the plane in a remote strip, how are they taking care of the hostages? The plane is worth $300m, but the people are priceless.

It seems we are not being told everything. We need a leak in order to learn more--otherwise we are stuck.

Instead of these governments doing the search, have any of the family members hired private firms without anything at stake to engage in searching?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-13 11:16:10 and read 59296 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 10):
India’s search team has been asked to explore “very specific coordinates in the Andaman Sea,” said Syed Akbaruddin, a spokesman for the Indian foreign ministry, without elaborating on those coordinates.

Does the Indian navy have the equipment and the expertise to do underwater searches? Or is this going to be just a visual search for floating debris on the surface?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2014-03-13 11:16:38 and read 59722 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 6):

Per US there is indication that Jet crashed in Indian Ocean

Trending all over FaceBook now. I wonder what the "indication" was. We'll never find out, since I'm sure it's a closely-guarded secret how they found out. Top-secret satellite imagery and such, I'd imagine.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 25):
So apparently the "incompetent"Malaysian authorities are still in charge and the US Navy is OK with it.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. It's under Malaysian jurisdiction. It was a Malaysian plane and not operating en route to the US. The only connection to the US is 4 citizens and the fact that the aircraft was built by a US OEM. The US has no choice but to be "OK" with it unless we are going to invade and annex Malaysia for the sole purpose of taking over the investigation!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 2008matt
Posted 2014-03-13 11:17:04 and read 59393 times.

Say the aircraft did ditch on the water in largely one piece, what sort of thing would they be looking for floating in the water?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 11:19:10 and read 59064 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 41):
Yes, and worth noting again that the raw EHM data is the intellectual property of the airline (MAS) not the OEM (RR).

Someone posted way up-thread that ACARS engine data is often used by engine manufacturers for power by the hour data. Doesn't seem logical for that to go through the customer.

[Edited 2014-03-13 11:20:44]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 11:19:48 and read 58985 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
If you can land and hide an airplane in a third word landing strip you could have a $300,000,000 asset.

But you couldn't ransom the plane and you can't sell it on eBay or even the parts except to a.nut collectors so its worth nothing.
They could try ransom the people but I think the Chinese might nuke them off the face of the earth.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: huxrules
Posted 2014-03-13 11:19:57 and read 59004 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 43):
Does the Indian navy have the equipment and the expertise to do underwater searches? Or is this going to be just a visual search for floating debris on the surface?

The Indian Navy does have some shallow water sonars. I was once on a bid package to supply them some training. Didn't win the bid. However when it does to deep water usually they will contract out the labor. AF 447 used Woods Hole. Later an Alcatel Lucent ship went out to retrieve the plane. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the oilfield contractors would be involved.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PIKtoYEG
Posted 2014-03-13 11:20:07 and read 58997 times.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blo...-by-chinese-satellite-live-updates

White House Press Conf: New search area in Indian Ocean

Jay Carney, the White House spokesman, has just confirmed that a new search area may be opened in the Indian Ocean, reports the Guardian’s Paul Lewis in Washington.

“It is my understanding the one possible piece of information, or pieces of information, has led to the possibility that a new search area may be opened up over the Indian Ocean,” he said, without detailing the nature of the new information."

Which means it was flying way longer than the last known contact point, considering the cost in repositioning several vessels. And it was flying in a different direction...West.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-13 11:21:33 and read 58756 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 25):
The whole confusion has been driven by:
1) Irresponsible news outlets that have been spreading rumors (in order to increase readership and hence advertising revenue)
2) Poor translation of Malaysian official statements.

Yes, the Malaysian authorities have released very little information - because they don't (and can't) share unverified data. It's better to stay quiet than spread rumors. If they are not sharing more information it's because they don't have any.

  

Quoting katekebo (Reply 25):
2) Poor translation of Malaysian official statements.

In many cases a bit worse than that, I think. There have been some fairly liberal "interpretations".

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 37):

Further evidence that the Malaysians are not the most significant source of misunderstandings.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 38):
Why do we have to keep rehashing the same crap? RR has to go through investigators. What information is officially released has to be through them, and is dependent upon their reliability.

The information was released after consultation with RR, Boeing and MH. The most recent information about the USS Kidd doesn't seem to support the implication that RR disagrees.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-13 11:21:51 and read 58615 times.

Until there is hard evidence - floating debris, sensing of the ELTs, and intact airliner at a jungle airstrip (unlikely), or other - whatever the US 'indication' was it is still a puzzle.

If other indications were correct, that the plane turned and levelled at 29,500 ft, why then within the space of what, another 600 or so miles, dd it ditch I wonder?

AKA there are still a gazillion questions and no answers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 11:22:02 and read 58974 times.

From CNN now:

"White House says recent information has opened possibility of a new search area in Indian Ocean for missing airliner. Officials deny report that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 kept flying for hours."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: ANITIX87
Posted 2014-03-13 11:23:48 and read 57971 times.

Quoting 2008matt (Reply 45):

Say the aircraft did ditch on the water in largely one piece, what sort of thing would they be looking for floating in the water?

What an odd question. If the plane ditched "in one piece" they'd be looking for a plane....no?

TIS

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 11:25:15 and read 57607 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 53):

"White House says recent information has opened possibility of a new search area in Indian Ocean for missing airliner. Officials deny report that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 kept flying for hours."

so that means that there is some credence again to the theory the plane cross over malaysia/thailand and ended up on the other side.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-13 11:27:40 and read 57157 times.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 54):
What an odd question. If the plane ditched "in one piece" they'd be looking for a plane....no?

No, it would sink, and he specifically asked what you may look for that is still floating around...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: redflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 11:27:55 and read 57371 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 25):
The WSJ report about ACARS being sent for 4 hours after loss of contact has been dismissed by several sources.

Well, the White House is now confirming they are going to consider deploying assets to the Indian Ocean to engage in the search. I would think they would not make an official comment like that unless they had very credible evidence that the airplane ended up there.

Quoting OTF (Reply 36):
This has been debunked by RR, they lost contact with the engines at the same time contact was lost with everything else.

When did RR "debunk" this? The two news sources I saw quoting RR, they stated that they will not make any comments since this is an ongoing investigation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 11:28:10 and read 56940 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 55):
so that means that there is some credence again to the theory the plane cross over malaysia/thailand and ended up on the other side.

Correct and - as far as I can discern - it's NOT from ACARS/RR engine transmissions. Like I said before - I am sure that they have had time to study Malaysia's radar date (they said themselves they needed help examining it), and have decided that a UFO travelling over the peninsula was *probably* the plane. Still pretty sensational if true/corroborated......but, all we know right now is that U.S. interests are starting to look at the western Strait/Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-13 11:28:45 and read 56858 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 38):
Why do we have to keep rehashing the same crap? RR has to go through investigators. What information is officially

Right: why we have to continuosly reahash this crap?

In the conference this morning the Malaysian authorities did speak on behalf of RR and Boeing (and that, as someone of your experience surely know, IS the correct protocol).
I did not see any press release form RR or Boeing lamenting that the Malaysian authorities misrepresented them. FULL STOP.

Give it a rest.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: neoshi
Posted 2014-03-13 11:29:27 and read 56779 times.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 54):

Well, not exactly. The plane itself would sink but buoyant pieces from the plane still float (composites, interior trim, seat cushions, life jackets, bodies, etc).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PGNCS
Posted 2014-03-13 11:29:39 and read 56785 times.

I am not entering the speculative fray here inasmuch as I don't know what happened. I will, however, comment on this:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
Plus, I don't even think pilots are able to tell the refuelers to add more fuel,

Yes we can.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
I could be wrong on that regard

Yes you are.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
it would be very bizarre if an airliner carried 5.5 hours worth of fuel for a 5.5 hour flight

You are, however, right about this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: sennabestever
Posted 2014-03-13 11:30:46 and read 56562 times.

This is probably way far fetched but since I know nothing about space and how high commercial airlines can get I'll throw it out there just for my own curiosity.

What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 11:34:08 and read 55711 times.

Did the radar at Banda Aceh airport at the tip of Indonesia report anything? Seems they would be involved.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2014-03-13 11:34:32 and read 55861 times.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 54):

What an odd question. If the plane ditched "in one piece" they'd be looking for a plane....no?

According to the way that statement was said, I guess thats what they are saying. If it did ditch "in one piece" does anyone know how long it could have stayed afloat before it started to sink.

I have not felt that there is a cover up in all this but now I am starting to think there is a chance of that regardless of how remote a chance that happens to be.

I find it so hard with all the assets of the US military, satellites, even CIA and on and on it goes that this plane and its passengers and crew have not been found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 11:34:57 and read 55873 times.

Quoting sennabestever (Reply 62):
What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?

No. That's essentially what a service ceiling is. The wings are only able to produce enough lift to hold it at a certain altitude, no matter whether you keep pointing the nose up or not or how hard you run the engines. That height gets a tad higher as fuel burns off (hence why you see planes step-climbing on very long flights), but for every plane, there's an absolute max and it's nowhere near space for any commercial airliner.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Boeing717200
Posted 2014-03-13 11:36:55 and read 55453 times.

Quoting sennabestever (Reply 62):
What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?

No. Air is too thin. Plane stalls and crashes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-13 11:38:29 and read 55022 times.

Quoting sennabestever (Reply 62):
What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?

As in Single Stage to Orbit?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 11:39:32 and read 55103 times.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 57):
Well, the White House is now confirming they are going to consider deploying assets to the Indian Ocean to engage in the search. I would think they would not make an official comment like that unless they had very credible evidence that the airplane ended up there.

What the spokesman actually said was

“It is my understanding that one possible piece of information, or pieces of information, has led to the possibility that a new search area may be opened up over the Indian Ocean,”

This is a long way from "very credible evidence" - spokespeople choose their words carefully, and this is a prime example of how they get twisted into something the spokesperson didn't say.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 11:40:15 and read 54808 times.

Thank you for your inputs, but...  

Just to stir that thing up, and to debunk some things...

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
As interesting as the many theories are, remember Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Given the evidence we have, MH370 having been snatched by an UFO is also a correct explanation! It just needs one assumption, namely the existence of airplane-snatching UFOs near earth!

Proof of that theory? We have, except the last radar returns, not a single trace of MH370. 
Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
1. They never dialed in intentionally. Logic tells you they didn't have a catastrophic failure at the exact moment of transfer between two countries while changing radio frequencies. No debris at that location because the plane isn't there. (I think I have a better chance of winning Mega-Millions forty weeks in a row.)

The plane having crashed with a very high velocity (which would give you next to zero floating debris) is also a possibility. This *is* a catastrophic failure of some sort, but which one?

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
2. They wanted Malaysia ATC to stop tracking them, and they never asked Vietnam to track them.

Why? A failure of ATC handover just makes you more suspicious. But if you try, you could still gamble upon the Vietnamese ATC not doing the job right - they might think Malaysia is still responsible for you.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
3. They disabled all transponder transmission, most likely pulled the fuse. The intent was not to be tracked.

This can't be ruled out. The only question would be: For what purpose?

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
4. They then went wherever the went with a perfectly serviceable aircraft.

Possible.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
5. The reason why the aircraft can't be found is they don't want to be found. Occam's razor.

Now, contrary to Occam's razor you're explicitly ASSUMING that they don't want to be found. Please remove that assumption, and try to think of another possibility.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
6. The reason why conflicting information is coming from the military is they know far more than they are saying.

This is possible, given the international distrust in that area.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
7. If you can land and hide an airplane in a third word landing strip you could have a $300,000,000 asset.

A 777-200ER isn't worth 300 million.

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/prices/ gives you a list price of 261 million for a 777-200ER, but the plane in question was the 404th 777 to be built, and had its first flight in 2002, twelve years ago. So that asset can't be that valuable.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
8. If I were to want something perhaps it makes more sense to do it through the correct channels not through the media.

I don't understand you here.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
9. Suicide fails the razor.

There have been cases of (attempted) pilot suicide, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990 as the foremost example. A pilot suicide would actually be the explanation that best fits the current evidence here, IMHO.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
10. Hijack is possible.

We would have some information on this, because the security agencies, police and other authorities now had five days to check the passenger list against their intelligence.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
11. Theft is possible. (Think somalian theft of ships)

Okay, on the first international flight this 777 will just be seized. If this holds true, this 777 would just fly domestic flights, for example in Northern Korea.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
12. Catastrophic failure fails the razor.

This is well possible! Tell me why you don't believe this. I'm interested.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
13. Military intervention is possible.

Given the international area (Vietnam, China, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Japan...), military intelligence assets could be everywhere. For example if Malaysia or Thailand shot it down, China would just jump at the opportunity to blame the perpetrator.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-13 11:42:08 and read 54275 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 41):
No. The circuit breakers are located in the E/E bay.

The L, R, C VHF and the L, R HF circuit breakers are on the aft overhead panel on the diagram I'm looking at -- SATCOM is there also but I'm guessing it's not installed on this particular airplane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 11:42:38 and read 54274 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 65):
Did the radar at Banda Aceh airport at the tip of Indonesia report anything?

Mandala499 answered several threads ago that there were no traces recorded by Indonesian radar.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-13 11:43:46 and read 54754 times.

Thread 17, post 146 (TOMNOD image). Look at the pictures closely. If this isn't 370, this is someone's airplane. What is the geographical location?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Summa767
Posted 2014-03-13 11:45:09 and read 53943 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 53):
"White House says recent information has opened possibility of a new search area in Indian Ocean for missing airliner

I hope they tell us what new information is leading towards the Indian Ocean search possibility. Is it the radar, US satellites picking up something, or will it be RR having received some transmission after all?

As the plane has not been found in the shallow waters around where it disappeared and after so much effort in the search, the theory of it turning west seems to be gaining more credence.
And why indeed just search the Malacca strait, when there was fuel for hours of flight?
This scenario would point towards a very sinister motives, that were well planned. Might they have been rehearsed in a simulator?
If it is true that the White House is backing the story of the Indian Ocean search, then some confidence can hopefully be restored in this search.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 11:45:22 and read 54446 times.

Bloomberg: "With no evidence of a mechanical failure or pilot error, U.S. investigators are treating the disappearance as a case of air piracy, though it remains unclear by whom, one person said. The investigation still hasn't located where the plane may be, the person said. "

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PIKtoYEG
Posted 2014-03-13 11:47:05 and read 54270 times.

Billie Vincent - Former FAA Security Director - on CNN:

"I find it improbable the plane crashed. The US Navy is not redeploying assets to a different part of the Indian Ocean if the plane did not fly for hours after the last known reported position"

And then hypothesis as to what that might mean. Hmmmm.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-13 11:50:08 and read 53426 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 75):
Thread 17, post 146 (TOMNOD image). Look at the pictures closely. If this isn't 370, this is someone's airplane. What is the geographical location?

I agree that this looks like a plane. We will just have to wait it out and see if they can locate it somewhere else. Fingers crossed that they find the plane and its passengers alive.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2014-03-13 11:54:14 and read 52576 times.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 76):
I hope they tell us what new information is leading towards the Indian Ocean search possibility. Is it the radar, US satellites picking up something, or will it be RR having received some transmission after all?

As the plane has not been found in the shallow waters around where it disappeared and after so much effort in the search, the theory of it turning west seems to be gaining more credence.
And why indeed just search the Malacca strait, when there was fuel for hours of flight?
This scenario would point towards a very sinister motives, that were well planned. Might they have been rehearsed in a simulator?
If it is true that the White House is backing the story of the Indian Ocean search, then some confidence can hopefully be restored in this search.

I have to say this story is getting very creepy. I was channel surfing on tv a few hours ago and heard on one channel that the home of the pilot was raided by police. Apparently they found a simulator in his house. Is it possible the police got some information off that and leads have developed from that raid?

I tried to find the channel that I heard that on when I was channel surfing but could not get back to it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-13 11:56:41 and read 52060 times.

It now appears that the White House is involved a bit more in the search, to wit:

White House Says Search for Missing Malaysia Airlines Plane May Widen to Indian Ocean

Quote:
The latest information on the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines 777 comes from the White House in Washington, D.C.

President Obama’s chief spokesman, Jay Carney, told reporters that the search for Flight 370 may expand to the Indian Ocean, where it may have crashed. The move, according to the White House, is based on new but inconclusive information about the aircraft’s movements after contact was lost on Saturday.....

.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: n471wn
Posted 2014-03-13 11:56:43 and read 51841 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):
Apparently they found a simulator in his house

Everyone knows that including the airline---he was a very good pilot and studied aviation all the time--nothing odd about that

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: redflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 11:56:51 and read 51657 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 70):
What the spokesman actually said was

“It is my understanding that one possible piece of information, or pieces of information, has led to the possibility that a new search area may be opened up over the Indian Ocean,”

Ok, so obviously that "possible piece of information, or pieces of information" is sufficiently credible to deploy assets to the IO side of the peninsula. Which only buttresses my point, which is that the authorities, in particular in the West, are looking at information that leads them to believe the flight may have ended up there. Put another way, the U.S. is not going to send assets on a wild goose chase unless the information they have is credible. So then the question is: What information do they have (which we don't) that leads them to believe it might be worthwhile to deploy hardware and manpower to that location? Radar returns? Information from RR that the engines continued to operate for some time after the flight went offline?

We've been discussing radar returns for a couple of days now. Coincidence that the WSJ report came out today and the WH statement is following on its heels?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 11:56:54 and read 51811 times.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 76):
I hope they tell us what new information is leading towards the Indian Ocean search possibility.
Quoting Summa767 (Reply 76):
And why indeed just search the Malacca strait,

It's important not to confuse two different developments.

1) USS Kidd is deploying to an area in the Malacca Strait that has recently been searched by a P-3C. P-3s can deploy sonar buoys, but the sonar equipment on USS Kidd is much more sophisticated.

2) The Indian Navy has been asked to search specific coordinates off Nicobar Island (Andaman Sea).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-13 11:57:37 and read 51606 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 49):
“It is my understanding the one possible piece of information, or pieces of information, has led to the possibility that a new search area may be opened up over the Indian Ocean,” he said, without detailing the nature of the new information."

Which means it was flying way longer than the last known contact point, considering the cost in repositioning several vessels. And it was flying in a different direction...West.

No. It means they think it might have flown way longer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-13 11:57:38 and read 51639 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):
Apparently they found a simulator in his house.

A widely know fact published numerous times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):
I was channel surfing on tv a few hours ago and heard on one channel that the home of the pilot was raided by police

Raided or visited?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: airbuseric
Posted 2014-03-13 11:58:13 and read 52027 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 75):
Look at the pictures closely. If this isn't 370, this is someone's airplane. What is the geographical location?
Quoting kmot (Reply 79):
I agree that this looks like a plane.

The 'plane' image you're mentioning about are found at this location:



I agree that it looks like a 777

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-13 11:58:26 and read 51331 times.

So. Wouldn´t by this time debris have started washing up on some coast? I don´t know the currents but I think that´s plausible. Has nobody seen any yet on a beach?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:00:21 and read 50913 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 78):

Billie Vincent - Former FAA Security Director - on CNN:

"I find it improbable the plane crashed. The US Navy is not redeploying assets to a different part of the Indian Ocean if the plane did not fly for hours after the last known reported position"

And then hypothesis as to what that might mean. Hmmmm.

are there any islands or remote strips in the Indian Ocean that both India and the US don't know about?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2014-03-13 12:00:54 and read 50936 times.

Quoting na (Reply 86):
Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):
I was channel surfing on tv a few hours ago and heard on one channel that the home of the pilot was raided by police

Raided or visited?

The channel dedfinitely said raided. They also said there had been prior visits to the house.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 12:01:31 and read 50775 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 84):
1) USS Kidd is deploying to an area in the Malacca Strait that has recently been searched by a P-3C. P-3s can deploy sonar buoys, but the sonar equipment on USS Kidd is much more sophisticated.

2) The Indian Navy has been asked to search specific coordinates off Nicobar Island (Andaman Sea).

Any idea / have they said how much time each operation will take before they get any result?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-13 12:01:34 and read 50840 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):
I was channel surfing on tv a few hours ago and heard on one channel that the home of the pilot was raided by police.

A police (?) spokesman denied this report(s) at their latest press conference.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-13 12:01:45 and read 51144 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):
I was channel surfing on tv a few hours ago and heard on one channel that the home of the pilot was raided by police. Apparently they found a simulator in his house. Is it possible the police got some information off that and leads have developed from that raid?

You say a pilot, who has a professional, and likely personal interest in aviation, has a kickass flight simulator rig at home? Conspiracy!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 12:03:13 and read 50623 times.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 83):
the authorities, in particular in the West, are looking at information

According to the US Navy, the deployment of USS Kidd was in response to a request from Malaysian authorities who, under international law, are leading the investigation. Please get over the idea that western hemisphere countries know / do everything better.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: timothy31388
Posted 2014-03-13 12:03:20 and read 50548 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):

He is one of many pilots that have their own flight simulators at home. Nothing unusual about that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2014-03-13 12:03:49 and read 50494 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 89):
are there any islands or remote strips in the Indian Ocean that both India and the US don't know about?

I have thought of that too. There might be some places they know about but dont think it could be there because it is so remote.

I just find it impossible with all the assets of the US alone that could be the case. But again,who knows?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-13 12:04:59 and read 50353 times.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 80):
I was channel surfing on tv a few hours ago and heard on one channel that the home of the pilot was raided by police. Apparently they found a simulator in his house. Is it possible the police got some information off that and leads have developed from that raid?

I believe the main simulator he was using is Flight Simulator X. I thought about it myself, for example if someone flew a 777 from Kuala Lumpur to Mogadishu in his simulator that could be seen from simulator's flight logs if those didn't get deleted.

So theoretically there could be some clues into the simulator if someone had been practicing some interesting destinations with it... If someone wanted to play a crazy, messed up cat and mouse game with the investigators it would be possible to leave some clues inside the sim in form of logs, screenshots, saved flights and such.

However I really don't believe the captain had anything to do with the disappearing... If anything the simulator hobby would prove he's a real aviation enthusiast who loves his job, not someone who would commit "air piracy".

[Edited 2014-03-13 12:09:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-13 12:05:28 and read 50168 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 89):
are there any islands or remote strips in the Indian Ocean that both India and the US don't know about?

An island/strip they don't know about? Lots of nope

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 12:06:46 and read 49834 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 89):
are there any islands or remote strips in the Indian Ocean that both India and the US don't know about?

Think surveillance satellites, Diego Garcia, even Google earth. No!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: bellancacf
Posted 2014-03-13 12:07:13 and read 49841 times.

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 87):
I agree that it looks like a 777

And a moderately intact one at that. I'd get a diver down there right away.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 12:07:48 and read 50217 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 75):
Thread 17, post 146 (TOMNOD image). Look at the pictures closely. If this isn't 370, this is someone's airplane. What is the geographical location?



The location can be found in this error message:

{"id":4894,"overlay_id":1226,"lat":7.541126,"lon":103.011956,"status":1,"msg":"Retrieved map ID = 4894"}

(Just replace "challenge" in the Tomnod link for "api", this gives you the location.)


To me it looks like clouds that are, by chance, looking like an airplane. My biggest reason: If you're looking for a 777, you're trying to see a 777 (or its parts) in this image. Over land, if we were looking for the tent of a lost hiker, we would take any plastic sheet for this tent...


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 12:08:59 and read 49696 times.

Quoting marktci (Reply 33):
You are aware that this was the March 8th flight, right?

Yes, I am very flightaware. There is a difference between Malaysia Time (MYT) and Central Standard Time (CST) http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-13 12:09:33 and read 49710 times.

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 87):
I agree that it looks like a 777

Really? I think it looks like a pixelated mess. I thought this picture has been debunked already a while ago?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-13 12:09:40 and read 49864 times.

That plane is underwater, bet on it. Otherwise the black box would have been detected by now, or someone on land will have seen something. If there is a remote chance its ended up on land the SAR would look there too. They do not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-13 12:11:48 and read 49271 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 94):
According to the US Navy, the deployment of USS Kidd was in response to a request from Malaysian authorities who, under international law, are leading the investigation. Please get over the idea that western hemisphere countries know / do everything better.

My understanding is that under international treaties, nobody acts without the request/permission of the nation of ownership, in this case Malaysia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-13 12:12:18 and read 49247 times.

Here is a quick run through of the 777 systems. again a very modern plane....even the 200 series.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NDW...onics%20bay%20in%20a%20777&f=false

Google has preview of the book
Boeing 777
Guy Norris Mark Wagner

Things to take away from it:

Electronics bay is below the flight deck.
The 777 is a power hog compared to their short ranged smaller twins.
very large engines. (this makes ditching in the Ocean more likely to break up the aircraft)

So an electrical problem as cause would have to:

knock out all communications
knock out the transponders
eventually incapacitate the crew.
allow the plane to keep flying for a while, until the AP disengages.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 12:12:56 and read 48990 times.

It only takes 6000 feet to land a 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PIKtoYEG
Posted 2014-03-13 12:13:33 and read 49001 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 85):

Anyone citing current media reports are doing so in the full knowledge that none of us have the raw facts. (If it did end up in, or near, the Indian Ocean, can you explain how it otherwise managed to get there if it didn't fly longer...?)

For example, CNN is 'breaking news' every 5 minutes which contradicts previous stories - they just came on now at 1305 MST and have 'confirmed' that the engine data was relayed for several hours after the last known contact point - source = Pentagon". Then Richard Quest comes on now and says his sources at RR still deny any engine data was sent.

Bearing in mind someone pays for those US Navy ships to reposition at large cost of $$$ - to me that's a clear indication the aircraft must have been flying for some extended period.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:15:09 and read 48747 times.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/03/13/malaysia-plane-pasztor

The radio interview with Andy Pastor, the journalist that broke the story about the plane flying for 4-5 hours after dropping off the radar scope. Excellent interview i must say. Also, the Malaysian authorities are not denying what happened; they are just denying the info came from the engine monitoring system. Andy said that there are other ways of getting information off the plane.. When he said the plane actually landed for some time, that really freaked me out!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-13 12:17:56 and read 48102 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 107):
It only takes 6000 feet to land a 777.

For a good pilot. At daylight. Or at least on a very well lit place. With its instruments working.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2014-03-13 12:18:35 and read 47802 times.

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 13):
I slept on this before tossing in my opinion, and now I really ought to check the intervening posts, but that would take a long time, so, apologies if this has been covered.

In thread 17, post 146, dandelany put up images which showed various levels of image processing of an image from ca. 7.54 N and 103.01E.

I also think that the (color/contrast processed) image looks like a plane. Note that when travelling two fields to the right and two/three down, one encounters something that could be an oilish sheen.

But of course:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 101):
If you're looking for a 777, you're trying to see a 777 (or its parts) in this image

is a very valid argument, too.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: trnswrld
Posted 2014-03-13 12:18:42 and read 47738 times.

I thought a while back everyone here said that the reports of engine data being sent out hours after the point of lost contact was confirmed not true? I'm watching CNN now and that's all they are talking about. This is getting so ridiculous, either they did receive data or they didn't!! Why is everything getting so twisted and mixed up? Is it just the media or the all the governments involved that are screwing everything up?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-13 12:21:51 and read 47223 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
Quoting affirmative (Reply 27):
If the ACARS installed in MH fleet is of the 'cheaper' version that only gives updates at given intervals

Anybody know at what intervals the RR data is supposed to be sent? every 20mins?

Quoting neoshi (Reply 51):
Can't tell if I'm reading Thread #20 or Thread #1 anymore. All very repetitive now.

Indeed, except at least there are fewer mentions of passports and cell phones!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:23:10 and read 46978 times.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 112):
I thought a while back everyone here said that the reports of engine data being sent out hours after the point of lost contact was confirmed not true? I'm watching CNN now and that's all they are talking about. This is getting so ridiculous, either they did receive data or they didn't!! Why is everything getting so twisted and mixed up? Is it just the media or the all the governments involved that are screwing everything up?

read up what i said about Andy Pastor. He specifically stated the engine maintenance program stopped, but he said there were other ways of getting data off the plane...i think that is what CNN is going on about.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: bellancacf
Posted 2014-03-13 12:24:07 and read 46542 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103):
Quoting airbuseric (Reply 87):I agree that it looks like a 777

Really? I think it looks like a pixelated mess. I thought this picture has been debunked already a while ago?

That's the trouble. Having stared at pixels for a decade or so, I can't make it look like noise. Not claiming any particular abilities, but just saying that it gets through the "pattern recognition filter". And for Heaven's sake, if it _is_ real, there _might_ be a way to save someone.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PIKtoYEG
Posted 2014-03-13 12:24:52 and read 46412 times.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 112):

yeah that's what i was saying above in Reply 108. Complete contradictions. Seems like nothing's happening in the Ukraine anymore, so this is the story of the day, allowing all sorts of mindless hypothesis.To be fair, they've had a couple of good guests on with actual flying experience.

Would be helpful if RR got up and told us all when the last transmission was from the engines. #aintgonnahappen

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-13 12:24:55 and read 46811 times.

Now Malaysia is saying they have data pings many hours after lost contact ....

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 114):
read up what i said about Andy Pastor. He specifically stated the engine maintenance program stopped, but he said there were other ways of getting data off the plane...i think that is what CNN is going on about.

He's right ... and this is all CNN is talking about ... The focus seems very Indian Ocean-centric based on the last twenty minutes of CNN ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: redflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 12:25:30 and read 46452 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 94):
Quoting redflyer (Reply 83):
the authorities, in particular in the West, are looking at information

According to the US Navy, the deployment of USS Kidd was in response to a request from Malaysian authorities who, under international law, are leading the investigation. Please get over the idea that western hemisphere countries know / do everything better.

With respect, I think you're letting your prejudices get in the way of a good discussion. I never implied in any way, shape, or form that "western hemisphere countries know / do everything better". The assets might have been deployed in response to a request from Malaysian authorities. However, those assets are not going to be deployed unless the reason for that deployment is substantiated. And it only further proves the point that authorities, Malaysian or otherwise, believe there is some type of evidence that indicates the airplane might have ended up in that area.

[Edited 2014-03-13 12:27:02]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:28:44 and read 45619 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 117):
He's right ... and this is all CNN is talking about ... The focus seems very Indian Ocean-centric based on the last twenty minutes of CNN ...

Thats right. When Andy said the plane could have landed though..i mean what remote strips are out there....that aren't under the watch of either Indian or US authorities. I know the Andamans are like India's Diego Garcia. Its just baffling the plane could land somewhere, not be detected and then take off again....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 12:29:06 and read 45646 times.

Quoting Stretch (Reply 105):
My understanding is that under international treaties, nobody acts without the request/permission of the nation of ownership, in this case Malaysia.

INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON CIVIL AVIATION
ANNEX 13

5.1 The State of Occurrence shall institute an investigation into the circumstances of the accident and be responsible for the conduct of the investigation, but it may delegate the whole or any part of the conducting of such investigation to another State by mutual arrangement and consent.

5.3 When the location of the accident or the serious incident cannot definitely be established as being in the territory of any State, the State of Registry shall institute and conduct any necessary investigation of the accident or serious incident. However, it may delegate the whole or any part of the conducting of such investigation to another State by mutual arrangement and consent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-13 12:29:17 and read 45586 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 108):
For example, CNN is 'breaking news' every 5 minutes which contradicts previous stories

I (and probably others) am turning to a.net to escape exactly this. But it's very frustrating this time around...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: laurco
Posted 2014-03-13 12:31:45 and read 45357 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 117):
Now Malaysia is saying they have data pings many hours after lost contact ....

This from the WSJ website - they published a correction that the data signal did not come from the engines.

Corrections & Amplifications
U.S. investigators suspect Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 flew for hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, based on an analysis of signals sent through the plane's satellite-communication link designed to automatically transmit the status of some onboard systems, according to people familiar with the matter. An earlier version of this article incorrectly said investigators based their suspicions on signals from monitoring systems embedded in the plane's Rolls-Royce PLC engines and described that process.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 12:31:52 and read 45230 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 107):
It only takes 6000 feet to land a 777.
Quoting na (Reply 110):
For a good pilot. At daylight. Or at least on a very well lit place. With its instruments working.

I think Starlionblue mentioned 4500 ft for a lightly loaded/fueled 777, and 3000 ft if you have balls (and don't plan to take off again). On a grass strip, it could be even less.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-13 12:33:38 and read 44658 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 113):
Anybody know at what intervals the RR data is supposed to be sent? every 20mins?

Three times per flight: one takeoff, two climb, three sometime during cruise.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 12:33:41 and read 44630 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 116):
Would be helpful if RR got up and told us all when the last transmission was from the engines.

The only official communication has been:

Quote:
Speaking to reporters on Thursday, Mr Hussein denied a report in the Wall Street Journal that the plane had sent engine data to the ground for more than four hours after it lost contact with air traffic control.

He said that his team had spoken to Malaysian Airlines and Rolls-Royce, the engine's manufacturers, who both said the report was "inaccurate".

"The last transmission from the aircraft was at 01:07 which indicated that everything was normal," Mr Hussein said.

The plane "disappeared" at 1:30.

Everything else has been pure speculation by news outlets and a-netters.

If the official Malaysian communique was wrong, RR and Boeing would have already made a statement correcting it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 175erj
Posted 2014-03-13 12:33:43 and read 45082 times.

Malaysia is now confirming to the United States that there were indeed 'pings' sent from the aircraft after it disappeared on radar. This is not necessarily engine data, however. These pings are driving the search in the Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:33:50 and read 45055 times.

Honestly the Indian Ocean scenario makes a lot of sense. We have had 8 days of search in the South China sea, by 40 ships and aircraft; something would have been found by now. The fact that nothing has been found in the South China sea...is very telling.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-13 12:34:41 and read 44564 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 93):
You say a pilot, who has a professional, and likely personal interest in aviation, has a kickass flight simulator rig at home? Conspiracy!

Indeed. It's really silly to suggest a pilot with over 18k hours is somehow a criminal because he enjoys flight sims.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 113):
Anybody know at what intervals the RR data is supposed to be sent? every 20mins?

Typically, EHM data is sent during takeoff, climb, and cruise. It can also be sent if an unusual engine condition is detected. It is up to the airline how often they want to send beyond that, as they pay for each ACARS transmission. Summary reports can be sent via gatelink after the flight. I do not know how often MAS sends EHM data.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:35:15 and read 44504 times.

Quoting laurco (Reply 122):
This from the WSJ website - they published a correction that the data signal did not come from the engines.

Corrections & Amplifications
U.S. investigators suspect Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 flew for hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, based on an analysis of signals sent through the plane's satellite-communication link designed to automatically transmit the status of some onboard systems, according to people familiar with the matter. An earlier version of this article incorrectly said investigators based their suspicions on signals from monitoring systems embedded in the plane's Rolls-Royce PLC engines and described that process.

Well that confirms Andy's reporting. What other systems does the plane have onboard that can ping/query a ground station or satellite? Is this the ACARS system?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: btblue
Posted 2014-03-13 12:35:34 and read 44660 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 101):

I've fiddled with the contrast on this and I assure you, it looks very 777 like.

Certainly needs following up... Wings reflecting light, fuselage broke fore and aft, tail visible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: marktci
Posted 2014-03-13 12:37:11 and read 44191 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 102):
Yes, I am very flightaware. There is a difference between Malaysia Time (MYT) and Central Standard Time (CST) http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA

So you're suggesting that there may be some significance in the fact that two of the three digits in the flight number correspond to the month and day of the month in some parts of the world at that time (but not in either Kuala Lumpur or Beijing)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: acabgd
Posted 2014-03-13 12:37:23 and read 44687 times.

Quoting sennabestever (Reply 62):
What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?

Best post out of all 20 threads for this topic!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 12:37:26 and read 44220 times.

Sure looks like it was on a bee-line to Sri Lanka.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PW100
Posted 2014-03-13 12:40:17 and read 43172 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 38):
Why do we have to keep rehashing the same crap? RR has to go through investigators. What information is officially released has to be through them, and is dependent upon their reliability
Quoting redflyer (Reply 57):
When did RR "debunk" this? The two news sources I saw quoting RR, they stated that they will not make any comments since this is an ongoing investigation

Well, an official accident investigation has not been launched yet (if I'm wrong, please point us to the relevant air accident investigation branch). It has not even been established that the plane has crashed. At this point it is merely a search (and not so much) rescue operation. This totally falls outside the authority of referenced ICAO rules with respect to accident investigation. Once an investigation has been opened by an ICAO accepted authority, only then these rules come into play.

So until the point that an official accident investigation has been started, there are no international LEGAL barriers for Boeing not Rolls Royce to make any comments. Unless there are international conventions that cover (international) SAR activities. That I can't say, as that is outside my field of expertise.

That is not to say that RR and Boeing find it in their best interest NOT to spread out unconfirmed data, without knowing the context of their data in the total picture. I can see why they would not set up their own press conferences, and in stead chose to communicate through the Malaysia SAR or other government officials.

PW100

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2014-03-13 12:41:32 and read 43235 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 107):






It only takes 6000 feet to land a 777.

This was already discussed some time ago. The plane is more than capable of stopping in less than 6000 ft given a variety of conditions and circumstances.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 111):
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 101): If you're looking for a 777, you're trying to see a 777 (or its parts) in this image
is a very valid argument, too.

When AS261 went down, I was watching the breaking news coverage. They had an aerial view of the approximate point of impact and I could clearly make out the outline of an MD80 below the surface. Apparently it was because I wanted to, since the plane was in a million pieces in reality. The reflections on the water played with my eyes and mind, apparently.

-Dave

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: ryu2
Posted 2014-03-13 12:41:49 and read 43267 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 52):
the plane turned and levelled at 29,500 ft

If this is accurate, it could also be another intentional move to fly unnoticed (avoiding traffic inbetween FL290 and FL300)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: btblue
Posted 2014-03-13 12:42:06 and read 43106 times.

And this is the image when it's had the exposure changed.

Could be clouds... but looks very angular and aircraft like. With the largest structures in tact - typically as you would expect.

MH370


[Edited 2014-03-13 12:43:04]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-13 12:43:02 and read 42818 times.

Quoting btblue (Reply 130):
I've fiddled with the contrast on this and I assure you, it looks very 777 like.

Certainly needs following up... Wings reflecting light, fuselage broke fore and aft, tail visible.

In order to debunk the idea that the image is due to compression, I would like to see a second satellite image of the same site before and after to see if it still exists.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 12:43:07 and read 43011 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 116):
Would be helpful if RR got up and told us all when the last transmission was from the engines.

It's on the record - the last ACARS transmission (which may or may not have included engine data) was at 01:07 local). The transponder went dead at 01:30.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 12:43:58 and read 42834 times.

Quoting 175erj (Reply 126):
Malaysia is now confirming to the United States that there were indeed 'pings' sent from the aircraft after it disappeared on radar. This is not necessarily engine data, however. These pings are driving the search in the Indian Ocean.

Which is exactly what they have been saying since day one - that they have unidentified radar tracks ("pings") that could indicate that the airplane changed course, crossed the peninsula and entered waters over the Malaca Straits and was flying west toward the Indian Ocean. It is 100% consistent with previous communiques. And this is why Malaysia has asked US Navy to help with the search in that area.

The official communications have been very sparse, but highly factual and consistent through the entire process (except for the first 12 hours or so, while they were still scrambling to deal with the crisis). But once the initial (very understandable) chaos settled down, the Malaysian official communications have been professional and accurate, albeit not as infomative as we would all like. Why? Because they can only share what they know for sure, instead of speculating.

The only sources that have been introducing speculative, inaccurate and misleading information are external to the official SAR parties - the Chinese "scientists" with the satellite pictures, WSJ and ABC (not completely wrong, but very imprecise).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-13 12:44:31 and read 42276 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 125):
If the official Malaysian communique was wrong, RR and Boeing would have already made a statement correcting it.

You keep asserting that RR and Boeing are at liberty to do so.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-13 12:45:00 and read 42388 times.

I would like to bring up the use of mobile phones and computers accessing the internet by passengers.

If mobile phone use was permitted, were any calls made by passengers during the flight? Relatives and friends would know the phone number of almost all passengers on the flight. Therefore any calls made must show the time of connection to and disconnection from service providers' networks in logs.

If the aircraft provided internet access and any paasengers made use of the internet during the flight, there must be a log of activity that could be traced back to one or more IP addresses.

Confirmation of phone or internet use by devices taken onto the aircraft would give a latest time at which one of these devices was functioning. Further, were logs to show that several connections were severed at the same time, that would be significant.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-13 12:46:02 and read 41952 times.

Why there is no news about Vietnam ATC person being questioned...Malaysians trusting that plane never contacted Vietnam ATC ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:47:46 and read 41877 times.

Quoting art (Reply 143):
I would like to bring up the use of mobile phones and computers accessing the internet by passengers.

If mobile phone use was permitted, were any calls made by passengers during the flight? Relatives and friends would know the phone number of almost all passengers on the flight. Therefore any calls made must show the time of connection to and disconnection from service providers' networks in logs.

If the aircraft provided internet access and any paasengers made use of the internet during the flight, there must be a log of activity that could be traced back to one or more IP addresses.

Confirmation of phone or internet use by devices taken onto the aircraft would give a latest time at which one of these devices was functioning. Further, were logs to show that several connections were severed at the same time, that would be significant.

MH already said this plane wasn't fitted with the system that allows for in flight use of cellular telephones. That theory was debunked a long time ago.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-13 12:48:56 and read 41505 times.

The contents of a fully loaded Boeing 777, I suspect, are capable of floating - such as the overhead bins, catering items, seat cushions, toilets. Not to mention, the souls on board should be floating around as well.

I don't, for the life of me, understand how six days later, not even one of these components has drifted to shore (if indeed the plane ditched in the Indian Ocean).

Heck, reports are that even parts of the doomed sword fishing boat - The Andrea Gail - eventually surfaced on a beach on Nova Scotia...

I'm assuming that the sea wasn't this merciless that it would swallow up a jumbo jet with not even as much as a hair of evidence. It's baffling...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 12:49:06 and read 41348 times.

Quoting art (Reply 143):
If mobile phone use was permitted, were any calls made by passengers during the flight? Relatives and friends would know the phone number of almost all passengers on the flight. Therefore any calls made must show the time of connection to and disconnection from service providers' networks in logs.

Cell phones don't work over ocean / sea. The coverage extends a few miles from the shore, at best.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 12:50:53 and read 40995 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 146):

The contents of a fully loaded Boeing 777, I suspect, are capable of floating - such as the overhead bins, catering items, seat cushions, toilets. Not to mention, the souls on board should be floating around as well.

I don't, for the life of me, understand how six days later, not even one of these components has drifted to shore (if indeed the plane ditched in the Indian Ocean).

Heck, reports are that even parts of the doomed sword fishing boat - The Andrea Gail - eventually surfaced on a beach on Nova Scotia...

I'm assuming that the sea wasn't this merciless that it would swallow up a jumbo jet with not even as much as a hair of evidence. It's baffling...

Didn't that SA jumbo, the combi i think it was, go down in this same area...was anything found floating then?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 12:51:14 and read 40923 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 144):
Why there is no news about Vietnam ATC person being questioned...Malaysians trusting that plane never contacted Vietnam ATC ?

Because it has likely already happened in a manner similar to this most-unnewsworthy conversation:

Investigator: "Did MH 370 ever check in with you?"
Tower supervisor: "I'll check with controllers who were on duty then."
Controllers: "No."

Would you want to read about every lead they've pursued?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: sebring
Posted 2014-03-13 12:52:27 and read 40859 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 142):

Quoting katekebo (Reply 125):
If the official Malaysian communique was wrong, RR and Boeing would have already made a statement correcting it.

You keep asserting that RR and Boeing are at liberty to do so.

The WSJ is reporting now that it was SATCOM ready signals, not ACARS messaging. No data was transmitted, so RR and Boeing have nothing substantive to say.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 12:52:31 and read 40712 times.

Quoting btblue (Reply 130):

Well, rather be safe than sorry - and I'm sure somebody has tagged this in Tomnod, or even relayed it directly to the Malaysian authorities.



Quoting 175erj (Reply 126):
Malaysia is now confirming to the United States that there were indeed 'pings' sent from the aircraft after it disappeared on radar. This is not necessarily engine data, however. These pings are driving the search in the Indian Ocean.

Though I hope this will be a reliable clue, we've had news like this over and over and over and over and over again.   

I really care about this accident, though I know nobody on this flight. How it must feel for the relatives.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: scbriml
Posted 2014-03-13 12:53:31 and read 40607 times.

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 115):
And for Heaven's sake, if it _is_ real, there _might_ be a way to save someone.

Save someone? What would they have been breathing for the last five to six days while submerged?   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 12:53:56 and read 40489 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 135):
This totally falls outside the authority of referenced ICAO rules with respect to accident investigation.

It doesn't. See the International Convention on Civil Aviation, Annex 13, articles 3.2 and 5.4 regarding the collection and safeguarding of information and evidence.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-13 12:55:07 and read 40195 times.

Quoting btblue (Reply 138):

Looks like the shape of an aircraft, however, in my opinion, this would have to be a very "neat" and "orderly" crash for it to appear this way on TomNod.

I'm also assuming it would have sunk by now if that was indeed the airplane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 12:55:46 and read 40157 times.

Quoting laurco (Reply 122):
Corrections & Amplifications
U.S. investigators suspect Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 flew for hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, based on an analysis of signals sent through the plane's satellite-communication link designed to automatically transmit the status of some onboard systems

Ummm......'kay. Also known as ACARS? What - what are we looking at here? If it's NOT ACARS, NOT transponder radar signatures, NOT the (now infamous) Rolls-Royce chatter - then.....WHAT. IS. IT??

I think everyone should bear in mind that we are *literally* in the middle of a media firestorm with this exceptionally bizarre case. This forum is probably the most reliable source for ACTUAL information on MH-370.....the regular news sources always want to be "live/local/late/breaking". I try to think long and hard about specific details that are relayed to the public before commenting on what they mean.....but with the level of contradictions, leaked reports and subsequently the ever-present Malaysian "denials", I am actually getting quite confused.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: redflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 12:56:06 and read 39757 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 135):
Quoting redflyer (Reply 57):
When did RR "debunk" this? The two news sources I saw quoting RR, they stated that they will not make any comments since this is an ongoing investigation

Well, an official accident investigation has not been launched yet (if I'm wrong, please point us to the relevant air accident investigation branch).
“We continue to monitor the situation and to offer Malaysia Airlines our support,” a Rolls-Royce spokesperson said, while declining to make further comment.
“The disappearance is officially now an accident and all information about this is strictly handled by investigators,” said another Rolls-Royce executive, citing rules by the International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations agency.

http://stream.wsj.com/story/malaysia...light-370/SS-2-475558/SS-2-479770/

I used the word "investigation" loosely; did not mean to imply that it was an official accident investigation.

Cheers

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-13 12:56:39 and read 39866 times.

Quoting art (Reply 143):
If mobile phone use was permitted, were any calls made by passengers during the flight? Relatives and friends would know the phone number of almost all passengers on the flight. Therefore any calls made must show the time of connection to and disconnection from service providers' networks in logs.

Well, given some glimmer of hope that the aircraft may be located, let me say this: others will yell at me, but I know from practical radio operator experience, on more than one occassion, RF propagation has allowed HF/VHF/UHF comms over the horizon, if sufficient cloud layers, or upper atmosphere phenomenon exist. This might sound kooky, but suppose, the aircraft impacted on / near / about a surface, above the ocean, before slipping into the sea - during that time, the "phones", the transponders, essentially any transmitter might (I repeat, "might") receive low strength signals from a powerful broadcasting tower, and even attempt to contact it back (it will obviously fail, as the terminal is much lower power than the tower). In that case, perhaps the aircraft systems were still partially operating enough to send data back in a hit or miss nature, or that the tower, which is at a height, with good coverage picks up a signal from below the horizon (i.e., ducted RF transmission) and then looses it as the weather changes.

I not kidding, as a teen, in the 1980's I was watching PAL-B color TV signals in DAC, from DXB, through ducted VHF, and I was very good at predicting VHF propagation then, later played with many Satellite comms facilities (1-way, 2-way, Star methods) so it's not that it is impossible, but rather it is not improbable. So if the a/c crashed, and the engines were still operating for a while (numerous aircraft have had engines that kept on turning after impact), could they have (if the antenna was still attached) send in data bytes as they were programmed on an open frequency, or did they need positive confirmation for this ? And this might also explain why for a period others claimed to have been able to reach out and connected to cell phones (e.g., they heard ring back) for those sets that had the power to try to negotiate a connection, before fading away DUE TO THE propogation changing. The signals would be erratic and ultimately not repeatable.

Also: Is this not a situation where we can say it is the Titanic of all aviation disasters?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-13 12:58:05 and read 39588 times.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 54):
What an odd question. If the plane ditched "in one piece" they'd be looking for a plane....no?

Not an odd question at all if you read his post carefully; he actually asked what would they be searching for floating on the water. My guess would be -
1) oil/fuel (don't know how many days it would float on the water)
2) in shallow waters - in the case of largely intact plane but a few ruptures in the fueselage then perhaps safety cards, may be soft toys from kids etc.; and who knows, maybe bodies?
3) deep water - deeper the plane sinks more the chances of it getting crushed due to the water pressure thereby releasing it's contents and water can float will come up to the surface i guess.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-13 12:58:36 and read 39733 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 154):
Looks like the shape of an aircraft, however, in my opinion, this would have to be a very "neat" and "orderly" crash for it to appear this way on TomNod.

I'm also assuming it would have sunk by now if that was indeed the airplane.

The idea is that this is an image of a submerged aircraft. Theory: Controlled water landing (such as in the Hudson incident) the aircraft then settles to the ground breaking up as it sinks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 12:59:17 and read 39681 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 71):
the plane in question was the 404th 777 to be built

The 404th and it can't be found... What a coincidence.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: JHwk
Posted 2014-03-13 13:00:57 and read 39129 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):
Why would you not want to be found?
7. If you can land and hide an airplane in a third word landing strip you could have a $300,000,000 asset.
8. If I were to want something perhaps it makes more sense to do it through the correct channels not through the media.
9. Suicide fails the razor.
10. Hijack is possible.
11. Theft is possible. (Think somalian theft of ships)
12. Catastrophic failure fails the razor.
13. Military intervention is possible.

I would look at every landing strip within six hours of KUL that could land a B777.
Remember bombers were hidden in WWII from view through on ground camouflage.

Suicide itself may fail the razor, but idea of a hijack with intent to crash the airplane in a place it won't be found is substantially more likely than hijack for financial gain. Why?
-AQ specifically looked into this scenario for planes over the Pacific.
-The difficulty of landing intact and being able to successfully get the ransom is pretty limited.
-A refugee hijack is pretty darn unlikely at this point in time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-13 13:01:31 and read 39178 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 141):
Quoting 175erj (Reply 126):Malaysia is now confirming to the United States that there were indeed 'pings' sent from the aircraft after it disappeared on radar. This is not necessarily engine data, however. These pings are driving the search in the Indian Ocean.
Which is exactly what they have been saying since day one - that they have unidentified radar tracks ("pings") that could indicate that the airplane changed course, crossed the peninsula and entered waters over the Malaca Straits and was flying west toward the Indian Ocean. It is 100% consistent with previous communiques. And this is why Malaysia has asked US Navy to help with the search in that area.

  

That's a few times now that I've started to prepare a reply only to discover that you've beaten me to it.   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PW100
Posted 2014-03-13 13:02:17 and read 38717 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 142):
You keep asserting that RR and Boeing are at liberty to do so

Not strange,, they still are . . .

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-13 13:03:12 and read 38723 times.

Quoting sennabestever (Reply 62):
What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?

Among 20 threads of speculation; this is ONE speculation that takes it to an entirely new level that deserves and award  . Why should NASA (or any other space agency) build expensive rockets then to escape earth's gravity then? All they have to do is board a 777 and then point the nose up after reaching 35,0000 feet. Brilliant!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 13:07:52 and read 38108 times.

CNN's story on this mystery states the following as of this afternoon:

"Malaysian authorities believe they have several "pings" of engine data from the airliner's service data system, known as ACARS, transmitted to satellites in the four to five hours after the last transponder signal, suggesting the plane is believed to have flown into the Indian Ocean, a senior U.S. official told CNN. That information combined with known radar data and knowledge of fuel range leads officials to believe the plane may have made it to the Indian Ocean."

Now, if I am reading this correctly (deep breaths - there's been a lot of data and speculation), THIS to me reads that Malaysian authorities are NOW saying that they do have several pings/communications from MH-370's ACARS system.

Does this mean that we have to throw out the insider/hijacker-turning-off-the-ACARS theory? If so, this is a new, big development.

Of course, that quoted passage above is also followed by the following statement:

"Earlier Thursday the Malaysian government denied a Wall Street Journal report that the plane was transmitting data after the last transponder signal."

 

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:09:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-13 13:08:00 and read 38024 times.

Quoting 175erj (Reply 124):
Malaysia is now confirming to the United States that there were indeed 'pings' sent from the aircraft after it disappeared on radar. This is not necessarily engine data, however. These pings are driving the search in the Indian Ocean.

lol, AP just Tweeted that Whitehouse source confirmed no electronic signals from MH370 after disappearance. As of 4:01 PM EST.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: sebring
Posted 2014-03-13 13:10:47 and read 37147 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 150):
Ummm......'kay. Also known as ACARS? What - what are we looking at here? If it's NOT ACARS, NOT transponder radar signatures, NOT the (now infamous) Rolls-Royce chatter - then.....WHAT. IS. IT??

I think everyone should bear in mind that we are *literally* in the middle of a media firestorm with this exceptionally bizarre case. This forum is probably the most reliable source for ACTUAL information on MH-370.....the regular news sources always want to be "live/local/late/breaking". I try to think long and hard about specific details that are relayed to the public before commenting on what they mean.....but with the level of contradictions, leaked reports and subsequently the ever-present Malaysian "denials", I am actually getting quite confused.

SATCOM is not ACARS. As the WSJ reporter explains, SATCOM is like a faucet, ACARS is what flows through it. With SATCOM, the system is searching automatically to find a satellite, like your WiFi tablet or smart phone looking for a hotspot or network. Even if ACARS is not transmitting and the transponder is turned off, SATCOM is looking for a satellite.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aw70
Posted 2014-03-13 13:11:18 and read 37250 times.

My theory is that one of the pilots suffered from an undetected paranoid mental illness of some sort, and took the a/c rogue because of this

I’ll try to show how I arrive at this conclusion as best as I can - the explanation is somewhat long, but bear with me. IMHO, the known facts would seem to support this sort of thing.

- Right now, practically nothing except the last known position of the flight, that it signed off from Malaysian ATC, but never signed on with Vietnam ATC, and the fact that it is still missing, are known with any certainty. Lately, it has also become more or less certain that the a/c went on flying for a considerable time, which strongly suggests a continued pilot presence.

- It is also notable that there is still nothing known that would *preclude* the plane having been intentionally abducted by a crew member. In fact, due to the baffling lack of any debris anywhere, the very suspicious time at which the loss of contact happened (precisely at hand-over to Vietnam ATC), and the fact that it continued to fly for quite some time after going „dark“, such an event actually seems comparatively likely right now. With "comparatively" being an extremely important qualifier.

- But if the plane was indeed intentionally abducted, the purpose of such an action remains a complete and utter mystery. So far, no one here or elsewhere has been able to come up with any sort of even remotely plausible explanation what one would do that sort of thing *for*, even if one could pull it off. There is no market for stolen T7, the parts are not that valuable, we know of no extremely high value cargo on board, nor politically important figures on the passenger list. If you want to hold a large group of people for ransom, there are much less risky ways of doing it than by provoking several of the largest and most efficient nations on the planet to send their special forces for a hostage rescue op. And there are much easier ways to get hold of an aircraft for terroristic purposes that are to be conducted elsewhere - the whole thing would be beyond bizarre, if it indeed were an abduction.

- In particular, there is no conceivable purpose that even a state-level actor would have for a stolen T7 obtained in this way. For instance, in this forum, Iran has several times been mooted as perhaps being behind this. Quite apart from the fact that it would be completely impossible to fly the missing a/c to Iran without anyone noticing (and also due to Iran very probably being out of range): but Iran already has plenty of wide body airliners it could just use for whatever nefarious purpose it might have in mind. The same goes for practically every other possible state-level actor around: even if it might have been technically possible to fly the a/c to their territory - but for Heaven's sake, why would anyone do that?

Which leads me to the conclusion that the following scenario might have something going for it:

- The a/c was indeed abducted, but not for rational reasons that can be comprehended by outsiders. In other words: the captain or the FO actually went insane in the narrow, technical sense of the word, and took the a/c rogue due to being in a delusional state of mind.

- Whoever was flying the a/c after the take-over managed to intentionally shake all radar contact by flying away from land, and in the „right places“ for this which he figured out ahead of time. Insanity with respect to one’s motives does not necessarily imply loss of one’s technical competence. Especially if this action had been carefully planned in advance, i.e. if the onset of insanity had not been rapid during the flight, but actually happened gradually, way before the flight took place. Gradual onset is not untypical for paranoid mental illness.

- An aiding factor in shaking all tracking would have been that as an professional used to working in the area, the pilot who did this would have been aware of the patchy nature of military air surveillance in the region. If you have plenty of time to plan something like this, you will find the gaps in the surveillance net.

Of course, this analysis cannot answer any questions as to where the a/c actually went, and what happened to it. But as things stand right now, serious delusions on part of the person who took the a/c rogue seem to fit the pattern of observed events comparatively well.

That having been said, there would also have been a way to get the aircraft into places one would not suspect it to be at right now. Even through areas under primary radar surveillance - but only while it was still night-time. And I have not seen this mentioned here yet.

If whoever was in control of the a/c after a takeover was really adventurous, and had planned this carefully in advance, he could have extinguished all external lights on his ship, rendezvoused with some other flight headed in the desired direction (visible from far away due to nav lights being on), and placed himself in the radar shadow of the other a/c. Close and below, in other words. No-one on the flight that was being used as decoy would notice that, if done properly.

Given the regularity of commercial flights, he could easily have picked some area outside primary radar coverage for this rendezvous, picked a flight to use as „shield“ weeks ahead, and then (for instance) been on his way all across Vietnam or Indonesia without anyone being the wiser, soon after „disappearing“.

Food for thought.

(an earlier form of this text was already posted in thread #19, close to the switch-over to #20, and did not get commented on - maybe because it’s long, and a clear headline was missing)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 13:12:49 and read 36780 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 160):
lol, AP just Tweeted that Whitehouse source confirmed no electronic signals from MH370 after disappearance. As of 4:01 PM EST.

okay hang on, this is so damn confusing now. One minute its there are "pings", next minute its "no electronic signals".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 13:14:52 and read 36291 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 163):
okay hang on, this is so damn confusing now. One minute its there are "pings", next minute its "no electronic signals".

A ping is simply the reflection you get with primary radar. It's not a signal from the plane. It's a reflection.

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:15:04]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 13:15:19 and read 36219 times.

Quoting sebring (Reply 161):
SATCOM is not ACARS. As the WSJ reporter explains, SATCOM is like a faucet, ACARS is what flows through it. With SATCOM, the system is searching automatically to find a satellite, like your WiFi tablet or smart phone looking for a hotspot or network. Even if ACARS is not transmitting and the transponder is turned off, SATCOM is looking for a satellite.

  
Thanks for the clarification. I understand now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-13 13:17:33 and read 35957 times.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 162):
My theory is that one of the pilots suffered from an undetected paranoid mental illness of some sort, and took the a/c rogue because of this

Your theory is at least more viable than the 777-as-a-rocket one, but since there seems to be a degree of planning to the disappearance by the crew (if they were involved) I´m not sure someone with paranoia would be so rational and capable of good planning.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 13:18:01 and read 35926 times.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 162):
My theory is that one of the pilots suffered from an undetected paranoid mental illness of some sort, and took the a/c rogue because of this

I understand that you have put a lot of effort and time into thinking through your theory, and in typing it out - but I'm afraid it's just not very likely, either. It is VERY hard for someone with an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid mental disorder to hide that from their everyday life and colleagues - let alone pass aviation exams, qualify for a career with an airline, and work their way up to pilot. I'm sorry. People with paranoid illnesses (I work in this field) are plagued by affects of their condition that pervade almost every aspect of life.

EDIT -

Quoting AR385 (Reply 166):
Your theory is at least more viable than the 777-as-a-rocket one, but since there seems to be a degree of planning to the disappearance by the crew (if they were involved) I´m not sure someone with paranoia would be so rational and capable of good planning.

 bigthumbsup 

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:19:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: iceswe
Posted 2014-03-13 13:18:40 and read 35694 times.

Possible clarification of 'pings' on WSJ:

Throughout the roughly four hours after the jet dropped from civilian radar screens, these people said, the link operated in a kind of standby mode and sought to establish contact with a satellite or satellites. These transmissions did not include data, they said, but the periodic contacts indicate to investigators that the plane was still intact and believed to be flying.

Investigators are still working to fully understand the information, according to one person briefed on the matter. The transmissions, this person said, were comparable to the plane "saying I'm here, I'm ready to send data.

Posted 2014-03-13 13:18:43 and read 35498 times.

Quoting sebring (Reply 161):
SATCOM is looking for a satellite.

Except, the plane does not have a Satcom antenna. So, no faucet & no information can flow through !

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 13:19:00 and read 35653 times.

AP now reporting no data downlink after secondary radar contact was lost.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-so...e-no-data-after-contact-lost-plane

Stated rationale for why they are searching four hours flying distance from last known contact sounds pretty weak, imho.

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:20:23]

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:20:51]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 13:19:23 and read 35505 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 163):
okay hang on, this is so damn confusing now. One minute its there are "pings", next minute its "no electronic signals".

I think people are confusing "pings" with SATCOM communications.

The "pings" refer to radar echo that was observed and reported by the Malaysian authorities indicating that possibly the aircraft might have turned west and crossed the peninsula into the Malaca Straits.

The "electronic signals" refer to SATCOM communication that WSJ is talking about. First these were ACARS to RR about engine status, but once these were denied by the Malaysians, WSJ changed their story to SATCOM looking to establish communication with a satellite (which in turn is now being dismissed by the WH). Let's see what next will WSJ come up with. "IP over avian carier" AKA as pigeons?

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:21:24]

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:22:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 13:20:27 and read 35021 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 159):
a senior U.S. official told CNN.

As I mentioned above, I think the media may have run out of intelligent "anonymous senior officials" and are now having to go to their stock of not so intelligent ones.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 13:21:04 and read 35024 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 169):

Except, the plane does not have a Satcom antenna. So, no faucet & no information can flow through !

IIRC, it does have SATCOM antennas, just not the same ones mentioned in the AD. It has a different type, imo.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 13:21:45 and read 34953 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 169):
Except, the plane does not have a Satcom antenna.

Got a source?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 13:21:48 and read 35042 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 166):
Your theory is at least more viable than the 777-as-a-rocket one, but since there seems to be a degree of planning to the disappearance by the crew (if they were involved) I´m not sure someone with paranoia would be so rational and capable of good planning.

It also lacks an explanation for what happened to the other flight crew member. You'd need him to be absent from the cockpit at the exact moment of ATC handover (which you couldn't premeditate) or to be able to incapacitate him before he was able to radio for help on any frequency, which would seem to be very difficult.

Quoting Trin (Reply 167):
I understand that you have put a lot of effort and time into thinking through your theory, and in typing it out - but I'm afraid it's just not very likely, either. It is VERY hard for someone with an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid mental disorder to hide that from their everyday life and colleagues - let alone pass aviation exams, qualify for a career with an airline, and work their way up to pilot. I'm sorry. People with paranoid illnesses (I work in this field) are plagued by affects of their condition that pervade almost every aspect of life.

This as well.

I continue to believe that this plane crashed in the Gulf of Thailand shortly after the loss of transponder signal at a high vertical velocity, creating a small and relatively unrecognizable debris field while destroying the FDR and CVR. The bulk of the debris most likely sank quickly, and the rest of which sank more slowly but before anyone found it. It's now been almost a week. The only things floating now would be objects that are not absorbent and also buoyant, and would have significantly scattered by now. Those things would be small and not easily traceable to this particular flight.

The radar "pings" could be any unknown aircraft and were initially being followed up on because they coincidentally matched up with a hypothetical scenario in which the plane turned around. They've now been played up more and more because the plane was not found in the first location.

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:29:46]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 13:24:48 and read 34398 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 170):
Stated rationale for why they are searching four hours flying distance from last known contact sounds pretty weak, imho.

Sounds pretty rational to me: "The official said Thursday that investigators are beginning to explore whether the plane may have flown for another four hours after contact was lost, based on the estimated fuel on board and the inability of searchers thus far to find wreckage." What else have they got to go on at this point?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-13 13:26:50 and read 34102 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 170):
Stated rationale for why they are searching four hours flying distance from last known contact sounds pretty weak, imho.

   I agree.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 13:28:11 and read 34044 times.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/3/7/0871737.jpg

Above the third door. Flat plate SATCOM antenna? And one on the opposite side as well?

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/0/9/0/0358090.jpg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 13:28:13 and read 33899 times.

Quoting marktci (Reply 131):
So you're suggesting that there may be some significance in the fact that two of the three digits in the flight number correspond to the month and day of the month in some parts of the world at that time (but not in either Kuala Lumpur or Beijing)?

Just stating a fact. Flight 370 departed on 3/7 and was last detected on 3/7. Others have stated that the flight was on 3/8..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aw70
Posted 2014-03-13 13:28:18 and read 33776 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 167):
I understand that you have put a lot of effort and time into thinking through your theory, and in typing it out - but I'm afraid it's just not very likely, either. It is VERY hard for someone with an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid mental disorder to hide that from their everyday life and colleagues - let alone pass aviation exams, qualify for a career with an airline, and work their way up to pilot. I'm sorry. People with paranoid illnesses (I work in this field) are plagued by affects of their condition that pervade almost every aspect of life.

I am aware of this. However, and perhaps this is why I wrote this, I had the questionable honour of witnessing one acquaintance descending into a somewhat related mental illness. An outwardly fairly stable person in his forties. Professional. Who, in retrospect, of course showed some telltale symptoms before going over the brink. But it was surprising how well he was able to hide what was going on in his head from everyone else for a very long time.

Of course, such cases are not typical. The majority would cease to be able to function as airline pilots long before being able to carry through even a much less insane scheme.

And I never said I considered the insanity scenario to be *likely* - just one that would match an intentional disappearance without a rationally describable motive for the whole circus.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-13 13:31:00 and read 33238 times.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 162):

Really, I can think of 10 different scenarios that are all "plausible" explanations. But it is still all speculative. There seems to be only one confirmed fact: A 777 went missing at 17:21:03 (UTC) while flying at 35.000 heading 040 with a speed of 471 kts. Everything that happened after is all "possible", "indicative" or just ordinary speculation. The number of possible scenarios one can come up with based on only this fact is countless....

Could we please use the threads to share information, that comes from more or less thrustworthy sources? I don't mind a bit speculation (like the information that came from WSJ) but keep all of your theories and possible explanations for yourself, not only because you can't really decidedly conclude anything else then that a 777 is missing, but also out of respect for everyone involved. In the past 20 threads we've heard it all: Electronical Failure, Suicide, Hijacking, Meteorites, you name it...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-13 13:32:00 and read 33270 times.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 175):

I would say the pilot's mental issue fits the simplest explanation, (Occam's razor) in the way you would "only" need that happening to lock the other pilot out, shut the transponder, change course, lower altitude, fly at will ala "Flight Simulator" to where who knows.

The only issue I have against that is not creating an alarm outside the cockpit in the way that noone in the cabin would phone relatives to tell what has happening, like it happened in 11-S.

Could the pilot take any measure from cockpit to prevent mobile phones working?. Where they in an altitude/zone out of telecom signals?

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:36:00]

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:37:10]

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:39:14]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 13:32:09 and read 32886 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 176):
Sounds pretty rational to me: "The official said Thursday that investigators are beginning to explore whether the plane may have flown for another four hours after contact was lost, based on the estimated fuel on board and the inability of searchers thus far to find wreckage." What else have they got to go on at this point?

Exactly.

Contrary to what many people here are saying "Why are the not looking (insert place here) because some anonymous source said that the plane was flying for 5 hours ...", SAR search pattern goes like this:

1) You start at the most probable location. In case of MH370 it is the last know (reported) position.
2) If you don't find what you are looking for there, you move to the next most probable place. In case of MH370 it is Malaca Strait because there is at least some reliable, documented information that the plane might have been there based on radar echo.
3) If you don't find it there, which is the next most likely place? Based on the radar track it appears to be further west, where the Malaca Strait connects with the Indian Ocean.

The search pattern that the Malaysian authorities are coordinating makes perfect sense. It is based in verifiable information (facts) like the last ATC communication and radar track, not somebody's unconfirmed (and hence not verified) speculations like WSJ's article.

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:33:34]

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:34:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-13 13:32:46 and read 32882 times.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 180):
I am aware of this. However, and perhaps this is why I wrote this, I had the questionable honour of witnessing one acquaintance descending into a somewhat related mental illness. An outwardly fairly stable person in his forties. Professional. Who, in retrospect, of course showed some telltale symptoms before going over the brink. But it was surprising how well he was able to hide what was going on in his head from everyone else for a very long time.

Of course, such cases are not typical. The majority would cease to be able to function as airline pilots long before being able to carry through even a much less insane scheme.

And I never said I considered the insanity scenario to be *likely* - just one that would match an intentional disappearance without a rationally describable motive for the whole circus.

This theory makes more sense if it were a well-planned suicide ... incapacitate the other pilot and take the plane into very deep waters where radar coverage is limited so as never to be discovered ... die in honor of some sort ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: marktci
Posted 2014-03-13 13:33:45 and read 32793 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 179):
Just stating a fact. Flight 370 departed on 3/7 and was last detected on 3/7. Others have stated that the flight was on 3/8..

But the flight was on 3/8.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Boogyjay
Posted 2014-03-13 13:34:04 and read 32548 times.

Quoting sebring (Reply 144):
The WSJ is reporting now that it was SATCOM ready signals, not ACARS messaging. No data was transmitted,

The SDU (Satcom Data Unit) is a transceiver that log in to the satellite constellation. As long as the onboard system is on (the breakers are in the E/E bay), there are always a few messages exchanged between the aircraft avionics and the satellite system so that it can login. These are probably the 'pings' referred to.

Once you know on which satellite beam(s) the avionics system has logged in or attempted to login, you have an area to look at.

I find it strange that the SSP* has not analyzed the data sooner...

BJ

* Satellite Service Provider (probably Inmarsat).

[Edited for clarity]

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:37:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-13 13:34:22 and read 32715 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 109):
read up what i said about Andy Pastor. He specifically stated the engine maintenance program stopped, but he said there were other ways of getting data off the plane...i think that is what CNN is going on about.

And this is how you monetize deaths of 230 people.

I you haven't noticed, media is just making up Bravo Sierra, because people will watch whatever they "report". We got nothing new? Hey, how about saying the airplane flew for 4 hours after it disappeared? Everybody denied getting messages? Well, people are tuned in, good for our sponsors, so let's just say "there are other ways to get data from the airplane". And throw "oh, it landed somewhere for a while, BTW" in there to really hook people on our channel.

Because, that's all what it's all about for the media - how to get big bucks and be a step ahead of the competition. To make the shareholders happy.

Want to learn about the story behind MH370? Listen to the official statements and go with the facts. And there are still just a few facts we know about. And you'll see, at the end, the reality behind it is much simpler. Less than 1 in a million, but simpler. So was AF447. Nobody believed 3 pilots can stall a perfectly OK airbus.

Just to refresh the memories: 7 theories why AF447 crashed (before we knew why): http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...es-on-the-crash-of-flight-447.html

Now we have theories why we can't find an airplane. My bet: because the see is large, much larger than it looks from couch, and the way it crashed. It will be clear once they find the plane. It might take a while. It took more than 50 years to find any trace of the 11 people aboard a 1947 flight that disappeared in the Andes Mountains.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 13:37:17 and read 32067 times.

Quoting marktci (Reply 185):
But the flight was on 3/8.

Now we can't even figure out what day it was...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 13:37:28 and read 32148 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 176):
Sounds pretty rational to me: "The official said Thursday that investigators are beginning to explore whether the plane may have flown for another four hours after contact was lost, based on the estimated fuel on board and the inability of searchers thus far to find wreckage." What else have they got to go on at this point?


4 hours in what direction? And where'd they get 4 hours from? Would need some info other than estimated fuel on board and inability of searchers thus far to find wreckage in order to calculate expected fuel burn (e.g., altitude, which would definitely not be FL 350) and heading.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: deconz
Posted 2014-03-13 13:43:15 and read 30820 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 179):
Just stating a fact. Flight 370 departed on 3/7 and was last detected on 3/7. Others have stated that the flight was on 3/8..

I think you need to check which side of the International Date Line you are referring to. Flight departed 08 March KUL time!!!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: BoeingBear
Posted 2014-03-13 13:44:51 and read 30674 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 167):
I understand that you have put a lot of effort and time into thinking through your theory, and in typing it out - but I'm afraid it's just not very likely, either. It is VERY hard for someone with an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid mental disorder to hide that from their everyday life and colleagues - let alone pass aviation exams, qualify for a career with an airline, and work their way up to pilot. I'm sorry. People with paranoid illnesses (I work in this field) are plagued by affects of their condition that pervade almost every aspect of life.

Let me share with you four reasons why I disagree:

EgyptAir 990
SilkAir 185
LAM 470
Ethiopian 702 (17 Feb 2014)

I have a world of respect for pilots (my dad was an airline pilot, my cousin is an airline pilot, I've worked in the airline industry for several years, and I'm now a student pilot myself), but guys do manage to pass checks despite problems a lot more often than we'd like to admit. It doesn't mean that most pilots are problematic -- and it certainly doesn't mean that we should look to pilot error or misconduct as a likely cause of any given incident/accident -- but the facts underlying the MH370 case *DO* point to the airplane being intentionally taken far off its filed route. And there are only two ways that can happen: 1) hijacking or 2) pilot misconduct.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-13 13:48:26 and read 29593 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 191):
Let me share with you four reasons why I disagree:

EgyptAir 990
SilkAir 185
LAM 470
Ethiopian 702 (17 Feb 2014)

I have a world of respect for pilots (my dad was an airline pilot, my cousin is an airline pilot, I've worked in the airline industry for several years, and I'm now a student pilot myself), but guys do manage to pass checks despite problems a lot more often than we'd like to admit. It doesn't mean that most pilots are problematic -- and it certainly doesn't mean that we should look to pilot error or misconduct as a likely cause of any given incident/accident -- but the facts underlying the MH370 case *DO* point to the airplane being intentionally taken far off its filed route. And there are only two ways that can happen: 1) hijacking or 2) pilot misconduct.

True, pilots are humans too and can go crazy. See B6 191 for instance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-13 13:50:01 and read 29575 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 191):
And there are only two ways that can happen

Actually, there are many more ways that can happen, for example the pilots where flying blind (no instrumentation as to where they were going), but the fact is: We don't know....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 13:50:06 and read 29389 times.

On a lighter note, if you complaint about speculation on A-net, look at this gem:
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio...cts-jet-will-be-found-by-Saturday/

Quote:
KUALA LUMPUR: Astrologically, the missing MH370 jetliner is likely to be found on or before Saturday, said seventh generation astrologer and Vasthu Sastra master Yuvaraj Sowma. He said this was based on the current alignment of the planets, sun and stars. (...)
The aircraft went missing on an inauspicious day (March 8 Saturday), which was Ashtami, the eighth day of the Hindu lunar calendar.

“Based on scriptures, days are numbered according to the state of the moon and the eighth day after the new moon is regarded as unfavour­able,” he said

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flymia
Posted 2014-03-13 13:51:38 and read 29427 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 167):
I understand that you have put a lot of effort and time into thinking through your theory, and in typing it out - but I'm afraid it's just not very likely, either. It is VERY hard for someone with an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid mental disorder to hide that from their everyday life and colleagues - let alone pass aviation exams, qualify for a career with an airline, and work their way up to pilot. I'm sorry. People with paranoid illnesses (I work in this field) are plagued by affects of their condition that pervade almost every aspect of life.

Tell that to JetBlue: http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/03/travel/jetblue-pilot-verdict/ It is not like pilots go through test like FBI agents go through, or something like that. They have frequent check-ups etc.. but problems can be hidden.

At this moment anything is possible which is in the realms of physics and the capabilities of the aircraft. Until hard evidence is found or disclosed anything goes.

And looking at the safety record of the 777 more pilots have committed suicide or gone insane than 777s have fallen out of the sky. So I think the theory above right now looking at the facts we have is more likely than some failure on the planes part. I would hope they would investigate everything about the pilots as they do for any airline crash. Of course assuming it did crash. We really do not know.

[Edited 2014-03-13 13:57:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 13:53:44 and read 28724 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 189):
Would need some info other than estimated fuel on board and inability of searchers thus far to find wreckage in order to calculate expected fuel burn (e.g., altitude, which would definitely not be FL 350) and heading.

So they sit around and do nothing until they have that info?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-13 13:54:17 and read 28484 times.

Quoting iceswe (Reply 168):
but the periodic contacts indicate to investigators that the plane was still intact and believed to be flying.

so ... the signals emanating from (HF, VHF, UHF, whatever) transmitter that still had dc battery power was picked up by the footprint of a satellite onboard receiver (probably GEO) so, at least they should know (a) the duration of the signal (b) which quadrant it was from unless it was received with an omni antenna (c) the power levels over time which can be used to calculate the battery status (d) the direction of travel (satellites rarely move, but they do have directional antenna beams, so signals at the edge of beams are lower in quality than at the boresight, crude direction finding). I agree that a beacon/network signal from the transponder/radio/whatever is better than nothing, there does not have to be any data from it. But then, it implies the aircraft was above the ocean (it could have crashed .. but still at that point the antenna was above the salt water) when it was transmitting ... until it either succumbed or the battery ran out.

Which mode was this transmission ? Could any 777 system manuals of the MH370 a/c type help here? Was it the onboard AVOD ? Was it one of the pax phones ? Was it an aircraft subsystem ?

Even if that sat had an omni antenna, the movement of the signal would be a clue, and this is encouraging to find its impact zone. Of course, the aircraft is down, but we are looking for probable areas.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-13 13:57:06 and read 28092 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 195):
At this moment anything is possible which is in the realms of physics and the capabilities of the aircraft. Until hard evidence is found or disclosed anything goes.

If I'm not mistaken it IS in realm of physics for the plane to spontaneously disappear on the quantum level - it's just bloody unlikely. Something to do with quantum fluctuations... and other stuff I have no idea about.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 14:00:35 and read 27411 times.

Your ISP continually pings your cable modem and your cable modem continually pings your router and your router continually pings your PC even when no browser or email app is open and no actual data is being exchanged between your PC and the internet. That is "link layer" management and on the MH370 satcom link they know exactly how long that ran and exactly when it quit. Let's hope they can derive some position information from it.

I suspect they are not releasing the specifics if indeed the plane is on the ground somewhere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: BoeingBear
Posted 2014-03-13 14:01:51 and read 27291 times.

Quoting rebr (Reply 193):
Actually, there are many more ways that can happen, for example the pilots where flying blind (no instrumentation as to where they were going), but the fact is: We don't know....

In a small airplane and/or with inexperienced pilots, you're right ... there are a LOT of ways that can happen. I pray that I'm never the guy in one of those situations. But if I am, you'd better believe I'll be on the radio asking for help and/or squawking 7700 on my transponder -- not staying silent and bloody sure not switching off the transponder. And I'm just a student pilot! A professional pilot knows far better than I do how to respond, and that's NOT how this crew responded. And the fact that we still don't have wreckage within a few hundred miles of the last known position makes it clear that they didn't respond adequately for at least an hour or two. That's compounded by the fact that the crew (or whoever was flying the plane) make an active decision to switch off the transponder while still in controlled airspace. How many explanations can there be?

None of us wants to think that pilot or passenger misconduct was involved. But we're quickly running out of other viable explanations. The facts just don't line up behind most of the alternatives.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-13 14:02:06 and read 26974 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 198):
If I'm not mistaken it IS in realm of physics for the plane to spontaneously disappear on the quantum level - it's just bloody unlikely. Something to do with quantum fluctuations... and other stuff I have no idea about

only explanation left is surreal, sucked in by black hole that went into a timeless and/or spaceless dimension that none of us know it exists yet in our sky

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: bynary
Posted 2014-03-13 14:02:24 and read 27366 times.

Although we first read initial reports in USA of a lost aircraft around 7:30pm EST, on Friday, 7 March 2014, the local time (Kuala Lumpur) of the departure was on 8 March 2014, per the airline's initial press release:

"Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014).

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-13 14:03:28 and read 27259 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 191):

True, and what should be noted is short time between MH370 and the Ethiopian hijack & LAM crash. It definitely does raise some concerns whether someone could have been influenced by those two...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Ecflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 14:04:54 and read 27231 times.

On 9/11/2001 I was working in 2 World Financial Center. Got to work about 7:45am.

When AA11 struck 1 WTC, most of my colleagues were convinced it was an accident. My boss in particular was vehement that it was not an intentional act. Some people just really don't want to believe in bad intentions. I entertain all possibilities that are actual possibilities.

UA175 converted all the doubters that morning. My point is not that MH370's disappearance was intentional, only that it would be uncomfortable for many if it was.

You know who else was from the Middle East and migrated to Germany? Mohammed Atta. Too many guys have wanted to get their hands on another big airliner again for us to rule out a 1+ man onboard conspiracy here.

I am a very sober dude. But we have seen a lot of creativity connected to bad guys and airliners. It's not inconceivable that a pilot could have gassed the passengers and crew, etc. World's a crazy place.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 14:05:39 and read 27031 times.

Quoting aw70 (Reply 162):

This scenario is very much the same as I laid out in one of the previous threads.  

Somehow we need speculation, perhaps it's the way to get our brains working...

Quoting Trin (Reply 167):
It is VERY hard for someone with an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid mental disorder to hide that from their everyday life and colleagues - let alone pass aviation exams, qualify for a career with an airline, and work their way up to pilot.

I have read the accident report of HB-XWE, a Agusta 109 helicopter that crashed during a ferry flight in Switzerland. As far as I remember, the investigation board wrote that he most probably suffered from depression, and that the pilot committed suicide. The board also mentioned that he was extremely professional, and that he never displayed any kind of carelessness.

It is typical for people suffering from depression that they are diligent, adhere to procedures and act... professional. In a certain way, professional pilots and depressed people share a set of characteristics.

And depressed people are rarely looking somber or unhappy. Their main symptom is losing the touch with their own emotions, an emptiness, which can go unnoticed for friends, family and colleagues.

If we switch "paranoid" with "clinical depression", the story seems right again.


David

[Edited 2014-03-13 14:08:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aklrno
Posted 2014-03-13 14:09:22 and read 26061 times.

Quoting marktci (Reply 126):

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 102):
Yes, I am very flightaware. There is a difference between Malaysia Time (MYT) and Central Standard Time (CST) http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA

So you're suggesting that there may be some significance in the fact that two of the three digits in the flight number correspond to the month and day of the month in some parts of the world at that time (but not in either Kuala Lumpur or Beijing)?


Well, if you are into inane numerology consider that the flight number starts with 3 and 7 and the aircraft type is 777. Anyone who thinks this means something should be strangled before they can post something more about this. I claim immunity from strangulation by being fist to mention it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-13 14:10:56 and read 25704 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 200):
And the fact that we still don't have wreckage within a few hundred miles of the last known position makes it clear that they didn't respond adequately for at least an hour or two.

Yeah, that's a great point. I am sure they hit that first patch hard with search and rescue craft too. It's a shame to think that way but we probably have to at this point as far as malevolent intent. The Captain Mr. Shah has 31 years straight of flying experience and 18K hours. He started right out of college w MH. What an incredible career.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-13 14:13:05 and read 25403 times.

Air France 447 did leave some larger debris on the surface,

but you will recall it impacted the water with almost level wings
and belly flopped, stalling at a 1:1 stall ratio or so.
it was not moving at maximum speed. closer to 200Knts

Considering how rugged the 777, it might have stayed intact while plunging
in at far greater speed. Then shattering and Leaving very few large pieces,
if the search has been going on in the wrong place by now the debris field Is GONE.

maybe for first time in modern crash debris will wash ashore in a few days, before the plane is found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 14:13:25 and read 25289 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 196):
So they sit around and do nothing until they have that info?

Is that what you think I'm suggesting they do?

Obviously not. My point was that "we think the aircraft flew for 4 more hours cause of the fuel on board and the fact that we haven't found debris yet" is nonsense because 4 hours in the air means nothing unless you have a sense of heading and airspeed. Further, the idea that 4 hours flying was the fuel exhaustion point is also nonsense without more information because extrapolating from the last ATC communication, 4 more hours in the air at FL350 does not get you near fuel exhaustion.

But no, I am not suggesting they do nothing until more information appears. I am suggesting instead that they already have significantly more information but are for whatever reason choosing not to disclose. That is all.

[Edited 2014-03-13 14:15:31]

[Edited 2014-03-13 14:16:06]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: richierich
Posted 2014-03-13 14:14:10 and read 25189 times.

Quoting marktci (Reply 185):
But the flight was on 3/8.
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 188):
Now we can't even figure out what day it was...

Oh holy hell.

The flight was scheduled to leave KUL after midnight 3/8 and did leave KUL on 3/8. It went missing an hour so later on 3/8.

Parts of the western world (USA) started hearing about the disappearance on Friday evening 3/7. Thus the time difference. As far as everybody involved is concerned, it went missing on Saturday, March 8th.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 192):
See B6 191 for instance.

Who knows how that might have ended... scary to think.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2014-03-13 14:15:50 and read 24966 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 171):

I think people are confusing "pings" with SATCOM communications.

The "pings" refer to radar echo that was observed and reported by the Malaysian authorities indicating that possibly the aircraft might have turned west and crossed the peninsula into the Malaca Straits.

The "electronic signals" refer to SATCOM communication that WSJ is talking about. First these were ACARS to RR about engine status, but once these were denied by the Malaysians, WSJ changed their story to SATCOM looking to establish communication with a satellite (which in turn is now being dismissed by the WH). Let's see what next will WSJ come up with. "IP over avian carier" AKA as pigeons?

For what it's worth, a "ping" in data network terminology means:
"query (another computer on a network) to determine whether there is a connection to it."

In other words, a ping over the air would be transmission of a packet of data and reception (or not) of the response (from the satellite).

That would be what's being referred to here in a reuters article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...3/mh370-engine-data_n_4958050.html

Though calling them "faint" is probably literary license on the part of the author. If the were received, they were strong enough.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Ecflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 14:20:06 and read 23804 times.

Reply 62 is awesome. "If you get stuck between the Moon and New York City...."

[Edited 2014-03-13 14:21:35]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: PIKtoYEG
Posted 2014-03-13 14:22:34 and read 23471 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 134):

It's on the record - the last ACARS transmission (which may or may not have included engine data) was at 01:07 local). The transponder went dead at 01:30.


How is it on the record. The point is: does the ACARS transmission include the engine data? My understanding is this is a seperate data stream relayed separately. Can someone confirm the answer to this please and whether it can be manually turned off from the cockpit. I haven't seen the answer, this is my third time asking in three posts cheers.


From: http://www.rolls-royce.com/about/tec...ystems_tech/monitoring_systems.jsp


A critical aspect of the EHM system is the transfer of data from aircraft to ground. Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) digital data-link systems are used as the primary method of communication. This transmits the Aircraft Condition Monitoring System (ACMS ) reports via a VHF radio or satellite link whilst the aircraft is in-flight.

A worldwide ground network then transfers this data to the intended destination. The positive aspect of this system is its robust nature and ability to distribute information worldwide. On the other hand, the Airplane Condition Monitoring Function (ACMF) reports are limited to 3kB, hence the acquisition systems need to work within this limitation. Future systems are being deployed to increase data volumes through wireless data transmission as the aircraft approaches the gate after landing. This will enable more data to be analysed, but will not be as immediate as ACARS, where data can be assessed well before the aircraft lands again.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 14:22:51 and read 23437 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 209):
I am suggesting instead that they already have significantly more information but are for whatever reason choosing not to disclose.

I'm beginning to agree with that point of view.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 14:23:03 and read 23387 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 205):
It is typical for people suffering from depression that they are diligent, adhere to procedures and act... professional. In a certain way, professional pilots and depressed people share a set of characteristics.

For depression, yes - and it is very common to find people who hide all symptoms of that disorder. The OP's theory, however, talked about a 'paranoid mental disorder'.....which, due to their characteristics, are quite hard to hide.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-13 14:23:12 and read 23448 times.

For those folks interested in some details on the Geography of the region and the depths involved in the Indian Ocean i found an interesting link here -

http://oceana.org/en/explore/marine-places/andaman-sea

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-13 14:23:46 and read 23383 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 114):
Thats right. When Andy said the plane could have landed though..i mean what remote strips are out there....that aren't under the watch of either Indian or US authorities. I know the Andamans are like India's Diego Garcia. Its just baffling the plane could land somewhere, not be detected and then take off again....

Anything else on the landing hypothesis ? It also explains the lack of a crash site.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: silentbob
Posted 2014-03-13 14:24:14 and read 22995 times.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 212):
Though calling them "faint" is probably literary license on the part of the author. If the were received, they were strong enough.

With digital transmissions, you either get them or you don't.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-13 14:24:27 and read 23129 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 142):
Didn't that SA jumbo, the combi i think

That would be Boeing 747-200b Combi, SA295 Helderberg, TPE-MRU-JNB. Crashed off the coast of Mauritiius due to on-board fire, cause unknown...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 747-600X
Posted 2014-03-13 14:24:38 and read 23097 times.

Occam's razor appears to be misunderstood, here. The philosophy suggests that the conclusion regarding an unknown which involves the fewest assumptions is the preferable one (albeit not necessarily the correct one).

So, let's consider what that means, here.

We know worryingly little, for certain. Unless I am mistaken, the only things we know for certain as yet are that the plane has disappeared, and that both its transponder and ACARS stopped transmitting, leaving us no way to trace where it went after its disappearance.

Of course, we also know that this is a massive plane, it had 239 people on board, it had 4 hours of fuel remaining (give or take).

And...we know that there has been no debris found anywhere near the point of last contact.

The conclusion with the fewest assumptions - that which most closely resembles what can be said for certain - is that the plane did not simply split apart in the air or crash into the sea anywhere near its last point of contact. That means that it must have gone elsewhere. How far, and for what reasons, we simply cannot begin to guess at this point. It is reasonable, by now, to conclude that it was flown - whether by a mad pilot or a hijacker or a case of incapacitation resulting from depressurization or whatever else - somewhere other than where it should be. This is little better than saying that it has disappeared, other than that we now add "it hasn't simply crashed". We know that a loss of pressure would not kill the transponder or ACARS, so that option seems very unlikely. This leaves us with only those options - whatever they may be - that consist of an aircraft going silent in the sky and flying beyond where it was last heard from. We simply know nothing else (unless I'm not-to-speed). To go beyond that - in any direction - requires vast amounts of assumption and supposition, and is therefore not compatible with Occam's razor.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-13 14:24:58 and read 23214 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 205):
It is typical for people suffering from depression that they are diligent, adhere to procedures and act... professional. In a certain way, professional pilots and depressed people share a set of characteristics.

Yes, I agree. My classmate in my MBA killed himself 6 months before graduation. You would never have known by looking at him or seeing how active he was.

I suppose the reason for a suicide (if this is the case) will come out in due time, but for now, the key is to determine if that is the actual cause of this disappearance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 14:26:38 and read 23004 times.

From WSJ: Malaysia gave India a "detailed" list of coordinates to search.

10 bucks says Malaysia did not come up with this detailed list but in all events, specific coordinates would seem to imply specific info (of some sort):

Posted 2014-03-13 14:30:04 and read 22131 times.

Quoting Ecflyer (Reply 204):
My point is not that MH370's disappearance was intentional, only that it would be uncomfortable for many if it was.

It took one 767 each to bring down the WTC towers. A 777 gone totally missing is indeed not a comfortable thought.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 14:31:19 and read 21916 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 222):
From WSJ: Malaysia gave India a "detailed" list of coordinates to search.

Could just be parceling out the work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: BruceSmith
Posted 2014-03-13 14:31:22 and read 22032 times.

boacvc10's comments on VHF propagation got me think about the VHF and HF radios on the 777. My brother is a radio ham and we've both worked with power amplifier electronics and I am very aware from personal experience how much power is flowing around in the final stage of a transmitter. "Beware the lightning that lurketh in the undischarged capacitor, lest it cause thee to bounce upon thy buttocks in a most un-technician-like manner."

What are the power ratings of the VHF and HF radios in the 777? I've seen mention of Rockwell radios at 25W and 30W transmission power, so aircraft radios are fairly powerful devices. The second question is whether all the comms equipment will be on a common power supply bus or whether they are isolated from each other.

The theory that popped into my head might fit the comms timeline and explain the sudden silence after the good night.

First, Malaysian and Vietnamese ATC would work on different frequencies to keep their chatter separate. I assume that is true, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Second, radio equipment, no matter how expensive and quality-controlled does have the ability to fail catastrophically in the power stages if heat-sinks are insufficient or the heat-sink mountings fail due to thermal wear. Also RoHS solder has proved unreliable in computer equipment, so a solder failure is also in the mathematically possible space.

Given those two starting points, consider the following scenario. After saying "Good night" to the Malaysian ATC, one of the pilots reaches over to switch radio frequencies to contact the Vietnamese ATC. The act of switching frequencies causes a change in electrical flow in the transceiver which triggers a failure in a slowly failing power stage component.

Failure in power stage components can short the high voltage supply to the ground plane via the heat-sink that the components are mounted on, or to the low voltage circuit via the base/gate pin of device. This can be momentary or sustained depending on the component failure mode and luck. If you shove high voltage onto a ground plane that shares a grounding bus with other equipment, or onto the actual power supply buses, you could blow all the other equipment at the same time. If all the radios share a common bus, it might take out all the comms capability of the aircraft at the same time. If a lot of other equipment shares the power bus, that could also be blown simultaneously.

Further into speculation, how would a high voltage short on one of the power buses affect cockpit equipment? Could it blow something critical to steering the aircraft leaving the pilots with no input into the flight? Could it trigger a localized fire in the cockpit similar to the Egyptair MS 667 incident that asphyxiated the pilots and left the plane flying stable until it ran out of fuel or lost altitude? A quickish incapacitation by smoke inhalation might explain the heading change if one of the pilots hit a rudder pedal or the yoke during the asphyxiation. We know from the captain getting locked out of the cockpit during the Ethiopian Airlines ET702 incident that it is impossible to get into a locked cockpit from the outside.

This is speculation, but I do speak from experience with power electronics and their failure modes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 14:34:12 and read 21362 times.

And still news sources fail to understand pings from ACARS messages and the like.

"Officials to CNN: "Pings" of engine data were sent hours after the last transponder signal."

  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 14:35:43 and read 21710 times.

Aha. This could make sense

Quote:
Flight MH370 sent “signals to a satellite for four hours after the aircraft went missing,” the Associated Press quotes an unnamed US official as saying:

The official said the Boeing 777-200 wasn’t transmitting data to the satellite, but sending out a signal to establish contact. Boeing offers a satellite service that can receive a stream of data during flight on how the aircraft is functioning.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to speak publicly, said Malaysia Airlines didn’t subscribe to that service, but the system was automatically pinging the satellite anyway.

The official also said some messages involving a different data service were received for a short time after the plane’s transponder went silent.

Source:http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2014/mar/13/mh370-no-sign-of-debris-detected-by-chinese-satellite-live-updates

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Western727
Posted 2014-03-13 14:36:23 and read 21153 times.

Quoting marktci (Reply 185):
But the flight was on 3/8.

Correct. The aircraft took off after midnight local time on 8 March...and not 7 March, which was the date in most of the rest of the world when MH370 took off. What obviously counts is the local date/time of where the jet took off and not the time/date in other parts of the world.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-13 14:36:52 and read 21209 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 222):

Well, in all fairness to the situation, you can't expect the Malaysian authorities to just say to India..."Hey, send a few ships out there...you know, anywhere..." lol.

They have to give them a "more-or-less" area to search no?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Western727
Posted 2014-03-13 14:38:03 and read 20794 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 223):
It took one 767 each to bring down the WTC towers.

"Mere" 767-200s, too.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2014-03-13 14:38:12 and read 20913 times.

After following most of these threads, and thinking things through, what I come up with is this:
1. If it had been some catastrophic mechanical failure the plane would most likely have crashed near the site where they lost contact. I am presuming that the lack of finding anything near there says that this did not happen.
2. I am presuming that the search has been competent and thorough enough that had it crashed in the Gulf of Thailand that debris would have been found by now.
3. If the plane had flown somewhere else and landed safely (whether hijacked or by the action of the crew) there would have been contact by now.
4. Since there has been no ELT signal I presume that the plane did not crash on land.
5. If it flew any significant distance with no communication I would have to presume that it was done deliberately. I cannot envision a failure that would disable ALL communication, including the transponder, and still leave the plane able to fly for a long distance.
6. And I presume that the search has been thorough enough that if it had not flown a significant distance debris would have been found by now.
7. This means the plane has most likely crashed into the ocean somewhere, and it could be just about anywhere within the range of the fuel on board.
8. And whatever happened, it happened because someone caused it to happen, and not because of mechanical failure of the aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-13 14:39:10 and read 20835 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 199):
Your ISP continually pings your cable modem and your cable modem continually pings your router and your router continually pings your PC even when no browser or email app is open and no actual data is being exchanged between your PC and the internet. That is "link layer" management and on the MH370 satcom link they know exactly how long that ran and exactly when it quit. Let's hope they can derive some position information from it.

They're talking about radar "pings" and not data pings. Plus the radar pings can come from any aircraft that would've flown through that airspace at the time like a business jet for an example.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 14:39:48 and read 20770 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 218):
With digital transmissions, you either get them or you don't.

Not exactly. Radio exists in the analog world. It is possible to receive a noisy transmission that you cannot decode, but you still "got it". That being said I don't think this is relevant in this case, since if the reporting is accurate then they kept their SATCOM link up and were connected to the constellation for a while - i.e. ACARS could have shot a message off if it wanted to. If this is true, and Malaysia Airlines subscribes to even the basic level of monitoring (which they say they do), some maintenance messages would have been transmitted in the case of systems failures.

Now, someone said earlier (or perhaps on another forum) that you can turn off ACARS sending over SATCOM from the computer in the cockpit, no messing about with CBs necessary, but does that power the entire SATCOM link down, or will the hardware still attempt to handshake with the constellation?

If it powers the whole link down, and the reports about the 4 hours of flight time are true, then we know ACARS was completely ready and willing to downlink messages through SATCOM, which rules out systems failure (of the kind that would send the maintenance message).

If it doesn't power down the link, and the reports about the 4 hours of flight time are true, then we still don't know jack because they could have just disabled ACARS over SATCOM.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: BooDog
Posted 2014-03-13 14:39:50 and read 20819 times.

Has Boeing said anything about the accident yet? To me, they're the only ones that can say the truth, and will not stop until the truth is known. All non-speculatory information is coming from governments or government-owned entities, like the the airline itself. So, of course, they could be hiding something.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 14:40:27 and read 20412 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 210):
Oh holy hell.

The flight was scheduled to leave KUL after midnight 3/8 and did leave KUL on 3/8. It went missing an hour so later on 3/8.

Parts of the western world (USA) started hearing about the disappearance on Friday evening 3/7. Thus the time difference. As far as everybody involved is concerned, it went missing on Saturday, March 8th.

On what reference are you basing the departure date?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 14:40:59 and read 20467 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 226):
And still news sources fail to understand pings from ACARS messages and the like.

"Officials to CNN: "Pings" of engine data were sent hours after the last transponder signal."

Who cares? If the system was actually "pinging" "hours after the last transponder signal" that could be significant.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Western727
Posted 2014-03-13 14:41:51 and read 20368 times.

Quoting BooDog (Reply 234):
Has Boeing said anything about the accident yet? To me, they're the only ones that can say the truth, and will not stop until the truth is known. All non-speculatory information is coming from governments or government-owned entities, like the the airline itself. So, of course, they could be hiding something.

Nothing more than their thoughts are with the families and that they are monitoring the situation.

Boeing/Airbus both have respective vested interests, too, when their aircraft are involved with incidents...so that alone is enough to take whatever either manufacturer says with a grain of salt. The US NTSB and other investigating bodies are all well aware of this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-13 14:42:54 and read 20002 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 224):
10 bucks says Malaysia did not come up with this detailed list but in all events, specific coordinates would seem to imply specific info (of some sort):

Of course, but there are political and legal necessities.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 14:44:12 and read 19617 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 238):
Quoting hivue (Reply 224):10 bucks says Malaysia did not come up with this detailed list but in all events, specific coordinates would seem to imply specific info (of some sort):
Of course, but there are political and legal necessities.

That wasn't my post you quoted.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: c680
Posted 2014-03-13 14:45:55 and read 19671 times.

I'm assuming that MH370 was using VHF radio for their final transmission. Correct?

I'm also assuming that MH370's transponder stopped functioning at a hand off point from Malay controllers to Vietnamese controllelrs. Correct?

If you wanted to disappear for any particular reason, a hand off would be the best time to do it. You would have a few minutes where the two controllers waited for you to check in. Then they would call in the blind for a while looking for you - thinking maybe the aircraft typed in the wrong frequency - it happens frequently. You might get 5, maybe 10 minutes of a head start.

Then where?

The place that makes the most sense to me is Sri Lanka. Could this be the last gasp of the Tamil Tigers? Hey, I know it's far fetched, but what's the fun of A.net if you can't throw out some long shot ideas?

...Or a meteor....

...Or "The Island" from LOST...

The point is, without any hard data, all we have are guesses. And the longer it goes on, the more the tin hat crowd will drive the conversation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: ABQopsHP
Posted 2014-03-13 14:46:04 and read 19478 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 226):
And still news sources fail to understand pings from ACARS messages and the like.

"Officials to CNN: "Pings" of engine data were sent hours after the last transponder signal."

Wolf Blitzer, among others, have been asking some really stupid questions. And trying to sensationalize the whole story. They need to stick to the facts that are being issued by the Malay, and other search parties.

JD CRP

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 14:47:03 and read 19372 times.

Networks "ping" and radars have "blips" or "returns."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping_(networking_utility)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-13 14:47:22 and read 19558 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 61):
Did the radar at Banda Aceh airport at the tip of Indonesia report anything? Seems they would be involved.

I've said it before, I'll say it again... NO...
Our primary radars at Sabang (island north of Banda Aceh) saw nothing. The one near Lhokseumawe saw nothing. The one at Medan saw nothing... Unless they change the official line tomorrow, the answer remains: N.O.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 67):
The plane having crashed with a very high velocity (which would give you next to zero floating debris) is also a possibility. This *is* a catastrophic failure of some sort, but which one?

Adam Air crashed with very high velocity, we still saw some floating debris (seat meal trays, cushions, water ration packs, and part of the stabilizer).

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 75):
I was channel surfing on tv a few hours ago and heard on one channel that the home of the pilot was raided by police. Apparently they found a simulator in his house. Is it possible the police got some information off that and leads have developed from that raid?

Please, this is ridiculous. The guy was known to have a home built simulator even before the disappearance.

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 76):
It now appears that the White House is involved a bit more in the search, to wit:

Going from mid-Indian Ocean to the east, if based on this so-called satcom ping, basically means they have no idea where it is!

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 178):
Above the third door. Flat plate SATCOM antenna? And one on the opposite side as well?

No, those are not satcoms. The satcom used in this aircraft is actually the low-gain antenna (the high-gain antenna being the "surfboard", absent here, but you can see on -MRQ), which is the small blade with the black front, the front most of the three blade antennas on top between the wing and tailfin. It's the predecessor to Thrane & Thrane Aviator 200... I forgot the exact name of the antenna.

Quoting Boogyjay (Reply 186):
Once you know on which satellite beam(s) the avionics system has logged in or attempted to login, you have an area to look at.

Well, depends on the subscription service used. If SBB (which this one isn't), you can narrow down to a 200km-400km wide beam spot where you hear the ping and data is transmitted. But ready signal usually goes on the regional beams, which is 3000km in width. However, if you're using the old Classic Aero service, it uses the global beam, which is 1/3 of the earth per beam... Now, Aero services have all moved to Inmarsat-4 satellites (migrated from Inmarsat-3). The Asia Pacific satellite's coverage & global beam goes from west of India, to Hawaii... Not useful for locating.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: BoeingBear
Posted 2014-03-13 14:47:34 and read 19566 times.

Quoting BruceSmith (Reply 225):
If you shove high voltage onto a ground plane that shares a grounding bus with other equipment, or onto the actual power supply buses, you could blow all the other equipment at the same time. If all the radios share a common bus, it might take out all the comms capability of the aircraft at the same time. If a lot of other equipment shares the power bus, that could also be blown simultaneously.

Okay, my hat's off to you -- this is actually one of the best creative-but-not-outrageous theories I've seen in the twenty MH370 threads to date (which is an accomplishment!). But I'm pretty sure each radio stack is on a separate bus. Otherwise, that kind of kills the whole idea of system redundancy. Moreover, the idea of asphyxiation due to smoke inhalation goes in the same bucket with hypoxia -- the crew are trained for it and would instantly reach for their oxygen masks. But you do get points for a well-thought-out chain of events ... nice!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: imatams
Posted 2014-03-13 14:48:26 and read 19057 times.

I'm still confused about this 'pinging'

Obviously if those 'pings' went on for several hours they would not be 'pings' as in primary radar returns, as I don't expect there to be primary radar coverage over the Indian ocean.
As far as I understand what they're talking about now seems to be some kind of ACARS 'standby' signal through Satcom. Is there such a thing?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 14:48:34 and read 19219 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 236):
Who cares? If the system was actually "pinging" "hours after the last transponder signal" that could be significant.

Not could be - that is ABSOLUTELY significant. I was just getting frustrated with the media screwing up terminology.

Here's hoping the USS Kidd arrives in the designated area of the Indian Ocean/Adaman Sea/Malacca Strait promptly, and begins its search. The one thing I find unbearable is the thought that there could still be some survivors out there clinging to life rafts, just waiting to be found. Perhaps the Kidd can launch aerial reconnaissance vehicles even before they arrive at the ordered coordinates?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 14:50:43 and read 18782 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 235):

Quoting richierich (Reply 210):
Oh holy hell.

The flight was scheduled to leave KUL after midnight 3/8 and did leave KUL on 3/8. It went missing an hour so later on 3/8.

Parts of the western world (USA) started hearing about the disappearance on Friday evening 3/7. Thus the time difference. As far as everybody involved is concerned, it went missing on Saturday, March 8th.

On what reference are you basing the departure date?

Surely you must just be trolling.

Here's MH themselves stating it was the March 8 flight: http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html

Here's CNN's current story noting that the last transmissions were 1:07 am Saturday: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/13/world/...rlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1; Saturday was the 8th.

Here's the NY Times, discussing contact lost on Saturday: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/wo...laysia-airlines-flight-370.html?hp

Here's the Sydney Morning Herald, saying it "disappeared last Saturday morning": http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia...-says-malaysia-20140313-hvifu.html

Seriously, this takes the cake for the most asinine debate on any of these threads, and that's saying quite a bit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: deconz
Posted 2014-03-13 14:50:49 and read 18766 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 235):
On what reference are you basing the departure date?

I suggest you check your facts before commenting my friend. The flight departed KUL at 00:41 on the morning of Saturday 08 March!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-13 14:51:04 and read 18753 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 142):
Didn't that SA jumbo, the combi i think it was, go down in this same area...was anything found floating then?

See, the thing with that crash was that the pilot was in radio contact with the ATC; the ATC knew what was going on onboard the plane (smoke due to suspected fire). ATC also knew the approximate position of last contact; so in hindsight knowing where the plane went down was simpler since (i think) they found some floating debris. The challenge was of course locating the wreckage on the Ocean Floor. In this case we don't even know where it went down if it did or where it landed if it did.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 14:51:18 and read 18791 times.

Quoting imatams (Reply 245):
I'm still confused about this 'pinging'

If the aircraft was showing any signs at all it was alive -- just trying to contact a satellite or whatever -- hours after the transponder quit that is interesting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: Difrano789
Posted 2014-03-13 14:52:58 and read 18422 times.

Hi all,

After years reading this forum I decided to join, sorry for my spelling English it’s not my mother language.

I have more speculation that have not being discussed, based on that the airplane is not near where it disappeared, SAR procedures from 4 countries cannot miss the plane in 150 ft. of water.

I need answer for these 2 questions:
1 Where are located the flight computers in a 777?
2 If the cockpit gets destroyed the autopilot and the computer can keep the airplane flying?

If the answer is yes to my 2nd question this could mathematically be possible:

Cockpit hit by a very small meteor, destroy the instruments and incapacitate or kill both pilots, no instruments no transponders no comms, the damage is not enough to break the plane and debris so small that impossible to trace on ground, computers still working and able to keep control on surfaces and throttle, due to destruction of the autopilot console the computer may have received any signal, for example heading 280, altitude FL298, and it flew until ran out of fuel somewhere in the world?

Sounds pretty crazy but as an engineer I have seen stuff that only could happen 1 in a trillion happening!

Thanks again

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: EMA747
Posted 2014-03-13 14:53:55 and read 18839 times.

Forgive me if I've missed some information but did these "pings" that might have gone on for 4 hours indicate the plane was functioning normally, or did they pick up just a signal for 4 hours?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-13 14:54:01 and read 18827 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 246):
The one thing I find unbearable is the thought that there could still be some survivors out there clinging to life rafts,

Even if people did survive the initial impact, by now no one would be alive.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-13 14:54:19 and read 18532 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 216):
For those folks interested in some details on the Geography of the region and the depths involved in the Indian Ocean i found an interesting link here -

http://oceana.org/en/explore/marine-places/andaman-sea

Thanks...not encouraging, it starts to get deep out there.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 14:54:31 and read 18475 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 246):
Here's hoping the USS Kidd arrives in the designated area of the Indian Ocean/Adaman Sea/Malacca Strait promptly

Any idea what is realistic that they can be there?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 14:54:48 and read 18544 times.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 247):
Seriously, this takes the cake for the most asinine debate on any of these threads

  
I say tom-may-toe and you say tom-ah-toe. Lets call the whole thing UTC.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 14:56:03 and read 18487 times.

Quoting 747-600X (Reply 220):
We simply know nothing else (unless I'm not-to-speed). To go beyond that - in any direction - requires vast amounts of assumption and supposition, and is therefore not compatible with Occam's razor.

Occam's razor doesn't forbid any assumptions, speculation or suppositions. It just says that our puzzle should use as little assumptions as possible, so we can weed out explanations that are too far-fetched and too outlandish. It protects us from wasting time and other resources.

Occam's razor is only one criterion for judging a theory. Equally important is:

- does it explain anything?

No, just "knowing" that the plane disappeared at time X after radio message Y does not help us.

- can we apply the theory? How does our theory lead to possible actions?

For example, the theory that MH370 was abducted by an UFO   would tell us that we need to improve NORAD's capabilities. And so the government increases its funding, and so on. And a theory assuming an on-board fire would not lead to SAR activities near Macau, for example - it's too far away. No plane would fly happily for hours when a fire is burning inside.

- does it agree with all known facts?

This is self-evident, and the most important point.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-13 14:56:20 and read 18104 times.

Quoting BooDog (Reply 234):
Has Boeing said anything about the accident yet?

Other than Malaysian Government, no one will make any statements. It will only create more exposure to lawsuits.

Quoting captainx (Reply 199):
Your ISP continually pings your cable modem and your cable modem continually pings your router and your router continually pings your PC even when no browser or email app is open and no actual data is being exchanged between your PC and the internet. That is "link layer" management and on the MH370 satcom link they know exactly how long that ran and exactly when it quit. Let's hope they can derive some position information from it.

All that is out of the window if one side turns off. Its like you turned off your Cable Modem and ask Cable company to debug your connectivity. You need two parties to Transmit, Acknowledge, Receive and Respond.

Big mistake Malaysia did is to make statements about primary radar readings without analyzing. They quickly realized that mistake, hence we don't hear anything about the UFO from any other country.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: pstyl
Posted 2014-03-13 14:56:36 and read 18199 times.

Quoting btblue (Reply 132):

To go back to kmot's Tomnod image as an aside from the discussion on pings: I admit that the shape's being of a lighter shade suggests otherwise but could that not be a shadow of an aircraft flying overhead?

(I've been obsessively following the discussion since thread 1 and lurking on Anet for 10 years. Thought this was as good a moment as any to jump in.)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: BruceSmith
Posted 2014-03-13 14:58:40 and read 17758 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 242):
Networks "ping" and radars have "blips" or "returns."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping_(n...lity)

Ping was first used in sonar and was brought into networking as a name for a IP echo location tool based on the sound of a sonar ping. Military blokes, especially naval officers, might well use the term for radar returns.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: D L X
Posted 2014-03-13 15:00:40 and read 17300 times.

Quoting pstyl (Reply 259):
(I've been obsessively following the discussion since thread 1 and lurking on Anet for 10 years. Thought this was as good a moment as any to jump in.)

It's always a good time to jump in.

Welcome!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-13 15:01:26 and read 17520 times.

I was watching CNN and thought of this question. I apologize if it has been asked before, but I do not think this exact one was asked before. What if all of the communications and satellite equipment just died - due to mechanical issues - and the pilots got turned around to the point where they were running out of fuel and tried to land safely in the water, but failed to do it safely?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: COEWR787
Posted 2014-03-13 15:01:42 and read 17431 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 224):
Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 222):
From WSJ: Malaysia gave India a "detailed" list of coordinates to search.

Could just be parceling out the work.

Specially considering that parts of the area doled out is Indian territorial waters in all likelihood, by the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: fotoflyer71
Posted 2014-03-13 15:02:00 and read 17811 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 172):

As I mentioned above, I think the media may have run out of intelligent "anonymous senior officials" and are now having to go to their stock of not so intelligent ones

My favorite post thus far!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 15:03:52 and read 17049 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 229):
Well, in all fairness to the situation, you can't expect the Malaysian authorities to just say to India..."Hey, send a few ships out there...you know, anywhere..." lol.

They have to give them a "more-or-less" area to search no?
Quoting fotoflyer71 (Reply 264):

   same here

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 15:04:25 and read 16735 times.

Quoting deconz (Reply 248):
I suggest you check your facts before commenting my friend. The flight departed KUL at 00:41 on the morning of Saturday 08 March!

That's all I'm asking. By what facts are you basing this from?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-13 15:05:25 and read 18368 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue the discussion in part 21 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)


Thanks and regards,

SA7700


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