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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-13 15:02:25 and read 73018 times.

Due to length part 20 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 21.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome.


PLEASE KEEP IN MIND:


**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; could we please keep science fiction theories and content related to possible future movie rights out of these threads? ****

**** Please do not repeat questions and scenarios that were covered and discussed in previous threads and which do not contribute in a constructive manner towards the real topic any longer. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

**** Once again please be respectful towards other users and keep the forum rules and regulations in mind when posting in the forums. Should there be any rule violations, please bring this to the attention of the moderators by making use of the “suggest deletion function”. ****



Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 15:07:55 and read 73127 times.

Also the moderators stopped posting the latest facts in the openings post anymore, afraid that they are changing during the time the thread is open?
 

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-13 15:07:57 and read 73124 times.

I asked this in the previous thread, but I will repost:

I was watching CNN and thought of this question. I apologize if it has been asked before, but I do not think this exact one was asked before. What if all of the communications and satellite equipment just died - due to mechanical issues - and the pilots got turned around to the point where they were running out of fuel and tried to land safely in the water, but failed to do it safely?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: BruceSmith
Posted 2014-03-13 15:07:57 and read 73078 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 244):
Okay, my hat's off to you -- this is actually one of the best creative-but-not-outrageous theories I've seen in the twenty MH370 threads to date (which is an accomplishment!). But I'm pretty sure each radio stack is on a separate bus. Otherwise, that kind of kills the whole idea of system redundancy. Moreover, the idea of asphyxiation due to smoke inhalation goes in the same bucket with hypoxia -- the crew are trained for it and would instantly reach for their oxygen masks. But you do get points for a well-thought-out chain of events ... nice!

Thanks, I know it is somewhat out there, but not as far out there as some. And with no knowledge of the redundancy of the power buses and radio stacks, one has to guess.

Regarding the asphyxiation, MS 667's fire involved the hoses to the F/O's oxygen mask. They are rubber hoses and can burn through.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-13 15:08:39 and read 72931 times.

Quoting 456 (Reply 1):
Also the moderators stopped posting the latest facts in the openings post anymore, afraid that they are changing during the time the thread is open?

Probably because they are not chaining, unfortunately.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-13 15:13:17 and read 72594 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 246):
The one thing I find unbearable is the thought that there could still be some survivors out there clinging to life rafts, just waiting to be found

If the airplane did ditch it probably would have been found by now as slide/rafts come with survival equipment which includes an ELT if the airline will be engaged in long over water flights.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 15:15:55 and read 72450 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 266):


Quoting deconz (Reply 248):
I suggest you check your facts before commenting my friend. The flight departed KUL at 00:41 on the morning of Saturday 08 March!

That's all I'm asking. By what facts are you basing this from?

I posted four links from four different sources, including the airline itself, stating that the flight and disappearance were on March 8. Read Reply 247 in the last thread.

Here is the original MH press release on the incident: The source for this is http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html - then go to the earliest page at the bottom (at the moment, page 17).

"Saturday, March 08, 07:30 AM MYT +0800 Media Statement - MH370 Incident released at 7.24am

Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014).

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014. MH370 was expected to land in Beijing at 6.30am the same day. The flight was carrying a total number of 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. Meanwhile, the families may contact +603 7884 1234 for further info."

I'm trying to be polite, but this is an absolutely insane point you're trying to make. You're wrong to assert the flight took place on any date other than March 8. At that time, it was still March 7 in much of the world because of time zones, but it was the March 8 flight in Malaysia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-13 15:17:03 and read 72233 times.

Here is a video of primary radar display. If you are watching real time you will see the blip(target) moving. Same with replays. Based on the signature(blip size, how fast it is moving) experts can tell what kind of aircraft it is with relative confidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp4CyShpjpI

CNN just got delivery of Malaysia 777 model, transponder and Data Recorder. Things are heating up.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 15:19:10 and read 72002 times.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 6):
I posted four links from four different sources, including the airline itself, stating that the flight and disappearance were on March 8. Read Reply 247 in the last thread.

You can also refer to the very very very first post in thread number 1 of this topic
MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-13 15:20:08 and read 71757 times.

Transferred from previous thread:


Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 222):
10 bucks says Malaysia did not come up with this detailed list

And your evidence for this is what? The US Navy has stated that it deployed USS Kidd to a specific area of the Malacca Straits "at the request of the Malaysian authorities".

Quoting Trin (Reply 226):
And still news sources fail to understand pings from ACARS messages and the like.

   SATCOM pings are not ACARS data.

Quoting captainx (Reply 242):
Networks "ping" and radars have "blips" or "returns."
  


But, assuming that the reports of SATCOM pings continuing but ACARS data not being transmitted are accurate, this suggests that ACARS was somehow disabled (by a person or a failure) in some way other than by disabling SATCOM - interesting!

Question (for Mandala499) - are SATCOM pings transmissible through water (for example if the aircraft was submerged in shallow water)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: IslandRob
Posted 2014-03-13 15:21:03 and read 71828 times.

Andy Pasztor of the Wall Street Journal now reporting that US officials are now exploring the possibility that MH370 in fact landed somewhere rather than crashing. This has always been a point of speculation, but it appears the US Govt is now taking it more seriously.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 15:21:58 and read 71830 times.

Jay Carney paused and seemingly chose his words very carefully with regard to characterizing the pax. See at 1:10 mark. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...8051b8b52d06_story.html?tid=pm_pop

Full-blown speculation mode here but it was almost as if he knew something about the pax' fate and had to pull himself back from revealing it unintentionally.

Or I need some sleep. In all events, I'm fully aware this well could be nothing. But circumstantial evidence is mounting that officials know significantly more than they are sharing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 15:22:08 and read 71575 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 7):
CNN just got delivery of Malaysia 777 model, transponder and Data Recorder. Things are heating up.

Are you saying that CNN just came into the possession of a FDR and CVR which are believed to be from a 777 owned by Malaysian Airlines? Source??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 345tas
Posted 2014-03-13 15:24:06 and read 71355 times.

US officials believe ACARS was shut down ten minutes before the transponder.

"Two U.S. officials tell ABC News the U.S. believes that the shutdown of two communication systems happened separately on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. One source said this indicates the plane did not come out of the sky because of a catastrophic failure."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...hed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802

If it weren't for US leaks (assuming they are correct), what would we know?

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:24:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-13 15:25:06 and read 71296 times.

Quote:
"Information has come to light that may indicate that there's a possibility ... that there was some sort of decompression of the oxygen system on the aircraft, incapacitating not only the crew, but the passengers, and the plane continued to fly for several hours," said Hall. http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03...ave-flown-long-after-last-contact/


I personally do not subscribe to the hijiacking theories. I think we will learn this was a catastrophic event which may have also involved the electrical systems.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 15:25:14 and read 71252 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 12):
Are you saying that CNN just came into the possession of a FDR and CVR which are believed to be from a 777 owned by Malaysian Airlines? Source??

I think he was talking about props.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: gosimeon
Posted 2014-03-13 15:25:38 and read 71347 times.

ABC News reporting that communication systems did not all shut down at once, which apparently can lead the US military to believe this wasn't a catastrophic incident:

"Two U.S. officials tell ABC News the U.S. believes that the shutdown of two communication systems happened separately on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. One source said this indicates the plane did not come out of the sky because of a catastrophic failure.

The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...hed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802

Man I hope they find the plane tonight/tomorrow. This is all very baffling...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-13 15:26:20 and read 70981 times.

If there were survivors they are not on a life raft from the A/C
they would be on pieces of the aircraft, but we are nearing the end of
possible survivors from that scenario.

The scenario would involve at ditch and break up and thereafter the big sections of the A/C
sinking to the bottom pretty fast. I wont go into details for obvious reasons.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-13 15:29:08 and read 70786 times.

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 16):
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."

Why would the shut down of the two systems be separated by more than 10 minutes?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 15:29:52 and read 70804 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 9):
But, assuming that the reports of SATCOM pings continuing but ACARS data not being transmitted are accurate, this suggests that ACARS was somehow disabled (by a person or a failure) in some way other than by disabling SATCOM - interesting!

Plus it has been mentioned earlier that the CBs for SATCOM are not on the flight deck but in the EE bay.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 15:30:46 and read 70547 times.

I do see something repetative is going on:
The last 3 days, all 'new' information is coming during nighttime/sunset in malaysia. Where I would expect new facts during daylight of malaysia.
To be honest, i have to see what is true about the latest abc news...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-13 15:31:49 and read 70502 times.

So where would they have landed, if they did ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cuban8
Posted 2014-03-13 15:33:14 and read 70296 times.

Based on the information we have received and if the information about the aircraft flying for another 4 hours after disappearance is true; there is only one option left and that is hi-jacking either by passenger or crew. Looking at the search area of Malaysia, US and India, it seems to be supporting the fact that the aircraft actually flew for quite some more time after last contact.

You can exclude the other options quite easily according to me.
- A flight would never last 4 hours with a serious malfunction without being able to recover, land at nearest airport or notify ATC.
- Being shot down, abducted or hit by an UFO doesn't seem plausible either since no wreckage found in the area where lost (and of course we assume they flew for another few hours).
- Suicide I think is highly unlikely. Why fly for another 4 hours to commit suicide? Why turn off the transponder?
- Piracy is not likely either. Where would they go/land and how would they hide such a big aircraft and for what reason? (On top of that, no phone calls or messages has been sent from passengers and no demands from the "pirates" so far).

This is what leads me to believe this was a hi-jacking gone wrong. While the hi-jacker(s) might be either of the flight crew; it doesn't take too much time to learn what communication systems an aircraft have or what actions would be taken by a flight-crew in case of a hi-jacking. The person may even have been invited to the flight deck.

For sure time will tell, but I do believe that some information is withheld from the public which just fuels the speculation in media and among the public for no reason....

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:39:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 15:36:18 and read 69655 times.

This is what I have on the scheduled departure date 2:51AM MYT 7MAR14. Just sayin... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA

Quoting IADCA (Reply 6):

I posted four links from four different sources, including the airline itself, stating that the flight and disappearance were on March 8. Read Reply 247 in the last thread.

Here is the original MH press release on the incident: The source for this is http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html - then go to the earliest page at the bottom (at the moment, page 17).

"Saturday, March 08, 07:30 AM MYT 0800 Media Statement - MH370 Incident released at 7.24am

Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014). BTW, that link does not state anything else than when they retired the flight number.

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014. MH370 was expected to land in Beijing at 6.30am the same day. The flight was carrying a total number of 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. Meanwhile, the families may contact 603 7884 1234 for further info."

I'm trying to be polite, but this is an absolutely insane point you're trying to make. You're wrong to assert the flight took place on any date other than March 8. At that time, it was still March 7 in much of the world because of time zones, but it was the March 8 flight in Malaysia.

March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin. BTW, that link does not indicate anything else than that MH370 will be retired to MH318.

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:38:43]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 15:37:22 and read 69655 times.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 22):
I do believe that some information is withheld from the public which just fuels the speculation in media and among the public for no reason....

If it's a possible security/terrorist issue the authorities have a very good reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: B747forever
Posted 2014-03-13 15:38:10 and read 71658 times.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 22):
- Suicide I think is highly unlikely. Why fly for another 4 hours to commit suicide? Why turn off the transponder?

Because you want to make sure so that the wreckage is never found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: MtnWest1979
Posted 2014-03-13 15:39:11 and read 72785 times.

US govt operative overtook flight and it is now sitting ai Diego Garcia. Reason being high level terrorist on board who is detained for information.
May as well add this, just to be another option...  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 15:39:37 and read 74301 times.

Based on some of the recent reports that the satellite communication (which took place for a few hours) from MH370 contained no actual data but was rather just a "handshake" so to speak, it's entirely possible that both the Malaysian authorities and the WSJ/US report are true.

The Malaysian folks did not get any actual engine/aircraft data - this much is true, as none was apparently sent.

The US / satellite folks who manage the system may have saw a connection from the aircraft by analyzing logs or telemetry from the satellite(s).

It's kind of like one of those creepy phone calls where nobody is on the other end of the line. You have a connection, but nothing was communicated.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 15:39:46 and read 73953 times.

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 17):
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."

What time was "all right good night" and what sort of warning does flight deck get if ACARS fails?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 15:41:35 and read 73636 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 23):

March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin.

You've got to be kidding. Malaysian time. The time zone in KUL is UTC plus 8.

As for your flightaware link, you linked to the wrong day. Look at 3/8, the one above it in the list. Notice the italics for the landing time, and a question mark for it? That's because the flight never arrived. Notice the flight track for that one? Here: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140307/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA

The flight you linked to, 3/7, has a non-italicized and non-question marked arrival in Beijing because the system verified arrival.

Also, regarding the press release link, here is the link: http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html

DON'T READ THE MOST RECENT ONE. CLICK THE NUMBER 17 AT THE BOTTOM; SINCE YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THAT INSTRUCTION, I AM NOW PUTTING IT IN ALL CAPS. READ THAT PRESS RELEASE. IT SAYS, AND I HAVE COPY-PASTED IT HERE FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE:

"Saturday, March 08, 07:30 AM MYT +0800 Media Statement - MH370 Incident released at 7.24am

Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014).

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014. MH370 was expected to land in Beijing at 6.30am the same day. The flight was carrying a total number of 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. Meanwhile, the families may contact +603 7884 1234 for further info."

And the original release I pointed you to does just fine as well. It says: As a mark of respect to the passengers and crew of MH370 on 8 March 2014, the MH370 and MH371 flight codes will be retired from the Malaysia Airlines’ Kuala Lumpur- Beijing-Kuala Lumpur route.

What other flight do you think they're referring to besides the one that disappeared?

Also, you're seriously using a notoriously error-prone secondary source regarding flight tracking over the airline's own description of its flight departure time and loss of contact? Are you freaking kidding me?



[Edited 2014-03-13 15:46:06]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: deconz
Posted 2014-03-13 15:43:06 and read 72974 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 23):
March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin.

Malaysian of course. That link is to the MH370 the day prior ... that's why it says "landed"!!!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-13 15:43:32 and read 73315 times.

New Sanity Check.

A slight update to the sanity check I did in thread 16. Been trying to do this for 12 hrs - I can't keep up with the rumors,
The facts have not changed much.
Stuff that has changed is marked with * and italic

I'm going to try to list what we know, not what we think - we being the public. And sadly it is very short.

- The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
- The last comms were a normal handoff from Malaysia to Vietnam control.
- It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.
- The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.
- There are some reports of a descent and turn - based on primary radar.
- But there is confusion about the veracity of that.
- There is some confusion (in the press) about if the descent was 3000ft or to 3000ft
* Update: I think we have concluded it was descent by 3000ft, the a/c remained at or near 29,500 feet.
- There was a primary radar return tracked west over the Malacca straits.
- Since it is primarily - a reflection - we do not know that it is the accident a/c.
- We do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns.
- We have no ELT signal detected.

* Update:
* ACARS: 2 ACARS messages were sent to Rolls Royce - both before the LOS (loss of signal) event. None after that.

* SATCOM Pings: There are (unconfirmed?) reports that the a/c SATCOM continued to send network interrogations (pings) for some hours after the LOS.
* These pings are simply short signals from the a/c to the satellites that are a sort of "I'm here" signal. No data was sent.
* This IS Significant, if it is true because that means the a/c was in flight and that comms were NOT disable.
* However, these pings provide no location, direction or any other kind of info - simply a 'ping' sent to the satellite.
* There is confusion about these pings being primary radar returns - that is not correct - they are communication signals.

Airworthiness Directive
* The airworthiness directive about the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
* The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna


Based on this information - authorities are searching 2 areas - near the planned route and in the Malacca straight.
* In addition - there may be some extension to the Indian Ocean.
* This makes sense if the primary radar returns in the Malacca Straight were MH370 and it was heading west at altitude.
* The fact that we have found nothing in the most likely areas drives expansion based on either new data or less reliable data.

- Frankly - this is quite reasonable. You search where you have evidence the a/c may be.

There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.
- We have no data to support any of them.
- The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the 'government is hiding it' aspects
- It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.

We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.
- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.
* Complaints continue and will despite what any authority does till something happens.

Mobile phones
- We know that if any mobile phones were connected to the tower - we would have a location and would search there.
- We don't have any reports or evidence of that - so I conclude that it is not viable to consider.

We have had a lot of "false" sightings
- This is common and we need to investigate the credible ones. Most will be false.
- The Chinese Satellite data has not resulted in any findings.

----------------------
In summary
We KNOW 4 things.
- The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
- There is some evidence that it traveled west. But that evidence is not conclusive or sure.
- We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.
* We have a better idea were it is NOT

That is all.
(Perhaps somebody can do an Insanity Check - all the wild theories have been discussed, proven or not).

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:46:08]

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:46:33]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-13 15:43:56 and read 73226 times.

9M-MRO is a modern aircraft, but one with a lot of use. 53,465 hours & 7525 cycles. Taking a good look at the maintenance records is a more logical start than investigating the captain's home flight simulator, as an example.

My speculation is that we're looking at an explosive decompression, something which affected the oxygen systems as well as electrical systems. Similar to the Payne Stewart tragedy, this could involve the aircraft flying for some time, being affected by the wind, which could explain how it got to the Indian Ocean, should that info be credible. In the case of Mr. Stewarts Learjet, pilots acknowledged an ATC transmission and then were not heard from again. The aircraft flew for approx 4 hrs more over 1500 km with all on board having succumbed to hypoxia. Eventually it entered a sharp turn and lost altitude, resulting in a crash.

This is also reminiscent of Helios 522.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-13 15:44:40 and read 72685 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 14):
I personally do not subscribe to the hijiacking theories. I think we will learn this was a catastrophic event which may have also involved the electrical systems.

You know I looked at as much passenger info as I could get and I just didn't see it happening. How would the passengers even know how to turn off the various comms devices. I don't see the pilots slamming it into the sea either but its certainly possible.

Is it possible they got signals from under the sea? Somehow off battery power?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 15:45:23 and read 72440 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):

Awesome. Thanks!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-13 15:45:42 and read 72679 times.

If the shutdown of communication systems (ACARS, transponder, etc.) occurred sequentially over several minutes it could indicate a progressively worsening mechanical / electrical failure. For example, a fire that was taking systems out one at a time. No distress signal could mean that the pilots were too busy trying to keep the airplane in the air to make a distress call, or that the failure took out radio communication early in the process.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: BruceSmith
Posted 2014-03-13 15:47:21 and read 72188 times.

The SATCOM/VHF/HF radios are all discrete avionics blocks and are separate from the avionics blocks generating the message traffic on the radio signals. The radios aren't dumb signal-forward devices, they have intelligent modems that build the digital link over the radio wave. Think the PHY device on a network card or the optical transceiver module in a router or switch. The data messaging level is one step back, you push the message onto the radio's input channel and it encodes it into a modulated analog signal and sends it on over the antenna.

If you disable or fail the block that generates the ACARS messages, or the transponder block, and the SATCOM block remains powered and operational, you would get the situation where the SATCOM keep-alive signals are present, but no data can flow.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 15:48:01 and read 72016 times.

Quoting deconz (Reply 30):
Quoting rightrudder (Reply 23):
March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin.

Malaysian of course. That link is to the MH370 the day prior ... that's why it says "landed"!!!

I stand corrected. Thank you for the explanation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: BooDog
Posted 2014-03-13 15:48:30 and read 72242 times.

Tomnod just put out EXACT image locations and all hits with associated pictures in a kmz (Google Earth) file for those who are interested. http://bit.ly/MalayResults14

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-13 15:51:24 and read 71305 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 12):
Are you saying that CNN just came into the possession of a FDR and CVR which are believed to be from a 777 owned by Malaysian Airlines? Source??

No way, they got hold of some model plane/recorder to enlighten viewers. I may be wrong but the transponder they are showing may be from a Cessna.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-13 15:51:39 and read 71537 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 35):
If the shutdown of communication systems (ACARS, transponder, etc.) occurred sequentially over several minutes it could indicate a progressively worsening mechanical / electrical failure. For example, a fire that was taking systems out one at a time. No distress signal could mean that the pilots were too busy trying to keep the airplane in the air to make a distress call, or that the failure took out radio communication early in the process.

Provided that the captain's "all right good night" to Malaysian ATC came after ACARS failed. I'm not sure but I thought it came right before the transponder failed. Which would mean:

1) ACARS fails
2) Comms still up but Cap't indicates everything is ok
3) Transponder fails
4) Turn, descend, fly for many hours, or so we are told.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-13 15:52:01 and read 71213 times.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 37):
I stand corrected. Thank you for the explanation.

Reading comprehension is a key skill.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rightrudder
Posted 2014-03-13 15:54:09 and read 70353 times.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 41):
Quoting rightrudder (Reply 37):
I stand corrected. Thank you for the explanation.

Reading comprehension is a key skill.

So is prescribing vision glasses.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: stasisLAX
Posted 2014-03-13 15:57:23 and read 70102 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 35):
If the shutdown of communication systems (ACARS, transponder, etc.) occurred sequentially over several minutes it could indicate a progressively worsening mechanical / electrical failure. For example, a fire that was taking systems out one at a time. No distress signal could mean that the pilots were too busy trying to keep the airplane in the air to make a distress call, or that the failure took out radio communication early in the process.

But that doesn't answer why there was engine information data bursts sent via satellite to Rolls Royce for four or five HOURS after the transponder went silent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 15:57:39 and read 69965 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 39):
No way, they got hold of some model plane/recorder to enlighten viewers.

Ok. I thought your statement meant they were CVR/FDR's from the 777 model of aircraft. That would have been an incredible announcement.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 15:58:40 and read 69828 times.

I don't know if this is already posted.... Looks like the two transponders went off separately and not at once, thus indicating not a catastrophic systems failure. This is per ABC nightly news.

Disregard this. See #52.

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:13:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ROSWELL41
Posted 2014-03-13 16:00:47 and read 69584 times.

My guess is that this was a pilot suicide perpetrated by the captain. The loss of the transponder, no distress call and the inability to find any wreckage anywhere near where the aircraft was supposed to be all point to this as a possibility. Egyptair 990, LAM and Silkair all are past examples of this type of scenario. Being almost a week since the airplane vanished, the odds are slim that we will ever truly know what happened to this flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-13 16:01:08 and read 69815 times.

Just rewatched the Swissair 111. Accident Investigation.

One thing clearly stands out. A fast impact with the ocean will leave few pieces larger than
your typical floor mat, and no structure of the aircraft will retain airpockets large enough to float.
that leaves Overhead compartments contents and pieces of foam from seats.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: difrano789
Posted 2014-03-13 16:02:11 and read 69071 times.

Hi all,

After years reading this forum I decided to join, sorry for my spelling English it’s not my mother language.

I have more speculation that have not being discussed, based on that the airplane is not near where it disappeared, SAR procedures from 4 countries cannot miss the plane in 150 ft. of water.

I need answer for these 2 questions:
1 Where are located the flight computers in a 777?
2 If the cockpit gets destroyed the autopilot and the computer can keep the airplane flying?

If the answer is yes to my 2nd question this could mathematically be possible:

Cockpit hit by a very small meteor, destroy the instruments and incapacitate or kill both pilots, no instruments no transponders no comms, the damage is not enough to break the plane and debris so small that impossible to trace on ground, computers still working and able to keep control on surfaces and throttle, due to destruction of the autopilot console the computer may have received any signal, for example heading 280, altitude FL298, and it flew until ran out of fuel somewhere in the world?

Sounds pretty crazy but as an engineer I have seen stuff that only could happen 1 in a trillion happening!

Thanks again

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 16:02:26 and read 69142 times.

Btw- pretty scary to realize that when the plane was missing by the authorities, the plane was still flying somewhere...
(IF the plane has flown for 4 to 5 more hrs (if!))

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:05:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: davs5032
Posted 2014-03-13 16:03:13 and read 68825 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 28):
What time was "all right good night"

I believe it was at 1:21 if I remember correctly.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-13 16:06:40 and read 68178 times.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 43):
But that doesn't answer why there was engine information data bursts sent via satellite to Rolls Royce for four or five HOURS after the transponder went silent.


There were not - please read the section of my post.
Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):
* SATCOM Pings:
Quoting flyenthu (Reply 45):
Looks like the two transponders went off separately and not at once, thus indicating not a catastrophic systems failure. This is per ABC nightly news.

Can you provide a source. How 'seperately' in time? Seconds? Minutes? How do they know?
- You do not have 2 transponders in operation at the same time, they would compete (?) (never flown a plane with 2)
- Can you even tell that you have to different transponders? I think the signal they send is the same (identical)

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:08:09]

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:09:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 16:08:38 and read 67447 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 45):

1:07AM : Data reporting system shuts down
1:21 AM: Transponder shuts down

ABC News Report

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-13 16:09:43 and read 67376 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 45):
I don't know if this is already posted.... Looks like the two transponders went off separately and not at once, thus indicating not a catastrophic systems failure. This is per ABC nightly news.

They are saying ACARS(Data Reporting System) went down @1:07AM and Transponders @1:21AM. That could indicate electric fire.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: TXspotter
Posted 2014-03-13 16:10:57 and read 66764 times.

In there anyway to see a wiring diagram of the 777, even a basic layout of where the wires physical run?

You could find where the all these failed systems are.

1. Locate the paths of all wires
2. Find a place in the physical diagram where these failed systems line up.
3. Mark where each wire would be cut based on time.
4. Trace back to from last system to fail to earliest system to fail and it'll guide you to the source of a fire or other anomaly.

Ex:
4 wires running horizontally from top to bottom on right hand side of cockpit
System red: top of cockpit right hand wall. Failed at 1:39am
System white: middle of cockpit right hand wall. Failed at 1:37am
System blue: near bottom of cockpit right hand wall. Failed at 1:30am
System yellow: floor of cockpit right hand wall. Failed at 1:26am

You could conclude there was a fire or problem in the bottom of this hypothetical cockpit that spread upward to the ceiling

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 16:11:19 and read 66733 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 51):
- You do not have 2 transponders in operation at the same time, they would compete.

I can imagine that when there are 2 (if!) transponders, they are also not on the same electrical power because of the redundency. And IF there was an electrical failure that therefor they have been shut down seperately.

Having wrote this down its rubbish- how can they know from the ground signals are coming from transponder 1 or 2 and that they have been turned down seperately??

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:12:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 16:11:47 and read 66641 times.

My Reply 52 is right off TV screen. Disregard #45.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 16:12:32 and read 66363 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
y are saying ACARS(Data Reporting System) went down @1:07AM and Transponders @1:21AM. That could indicate electric fire.

A fire, and then it flies on for 4-5 hours ... no way.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-13 16:12:32 and read 66486 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
They are saying ACARS(Data Reporting System) went down @1:07AM and Transponders @1:21AM. That could indicate electric fire.

Are they really saying that ACARS(Data Reporting System) went down @1:07AM?

I thought they simply said that the last ACARS message was received (or maybe sent) at 1:07 am.

Presumably the system could still be operating, but because messages are sent at intermittent intervals, it may have been working but had nothing to report ???

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-13 16:12:58 and read 66560 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 52):
1:07AM : Data reporting system shuts down
1:21 AM: Transponder shuts down

Incorrect.
1:07am - last transmission from ACARS.
But ACAR's transmissions are not continuous - so this does not mean ACARS shut down, just that this was the last time it sent anything. Nothing more would have been expected unless there was a problem with the engines, or at the end of flight report after landing.

1:21AM: This is correct, stopped transmitting (responding to radar inquiries) at this time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-13 16:14:20 and read 66207 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):

but... The acars... Shut down before the captain signed off from the ATC?

Eh? If true, that really only leaves two possibilities. But, there are two pilots and neither makes sense...

or are they maybe trying to say last acars was at 01.07- the next due 30 minutes later?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ukair
Posted 2014-03-13 16:15:26 and read 66271 times.

the daily mail is reporting that the FAA issued a warning about a flaw in some 777's to quote ..

' In an ‘airworthiness directive’ (AD) dated September 18 last year, airlines were given until April 9 this year to ‘detect and correct cracking and corrosion in the fuselage skin’ beneath the airliners' communications antennae.

Failure to fix the flaw could put the aircraft at risk of ‘a rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity of the airplane,’ said the FAA.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...0-vulnerable-mid-air-break-up.html

anyone else seen this?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ROSWELL41
Posted 2014-03-13 16:16:22 and read 65654 times.

I have not yet read any plausible scenario for mechanical failure. A hijacking would provide enough time to get out some type of distress signal. This was sabotage by one of the pilots - most likely the captain.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-13 16:16:59 and read 65599 times.

A simple possibility maybe...a slowly professing fire in the electronics bay...is there boxes for the transponders and VHF radios in the Avionics bay where the ACARS system is located?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2014-03-13 16:17:30 and read 65630 times.

Quoting ukair (Reply 61):
the daily mail is reporting that the FAA issued a warning about a flaw in some 777's to quote ..

' In an ‘airworthiness directive’ (AD) dated September 18 last year, airlines were given until April 9 this year to ‘detect and correct cracking and corrosion in the fuselage skin’ beneath the airliners' communications antennae.

Failure to fix the flaw could put the aircraft at risk of ‘a rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity of the airplane,’ said the FAA.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...0-vulnerable-mid-air-break-up.html

anyone else seen this?

It's been around and around and around in these threads: it does not apply to this aircraft as it had different antennae configurations.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 16:17:51 and read 65600 times.

Quoting ukair (Reply 61):
anyone else seen this?

Yep and mentioned several times already in this thread  )
But this was not applicable for this 772.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 16:18:16 and read 65548 times.

Shutting off ACARS is like shutting off your PC ... the network (ISP) sees this but the ISP network link to your modem and router is still active.

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:19:42]

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:20:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 16:18:34 and read 65248 times.

Quoting ukair (Reply 61):
anyone else seen this?

Been discussed, does not apply to this aircraft, as it uses a different antenna.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 62):

I have not yet read any plausible scenario for mechanical failure. A hijacking would provide enough time to get out some type of distress signal. This was sabotage by one of the pilots - most likely the captain.

Why assuming just the Captain? It could be the FO, it COULD also be both...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 16:18:34 and read 65695 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 59):

I literally copied this right off the TV screen. This was on CNN, and they were citing ABC. I left out the text within paren.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nick33326
Posted 2014-03-13 16:19:48 and read 65423 times.

This is my first post, though I've been a reader here for years.

While I'm growing more convinced that the plane has been landed somewhere, if they experienced some sort of technical problems, based upon everything I've read thus far, the most credible report IMHO is the one from the oil rig worker. A thorough search should be conducted east of Con Son Island. If the worker's observation is correct, and the plane was moving away from him, the pilots might have been attempting to reach Con Son, which has an airport (Con Dao Airport) with a 6000 ft. runway. From what I understand, at MLW a B777 needs a 5610 ft. runway to land. Perhaps they tried to make it there?

Considering all the contradictory information being put out by the authorities, however, I fear that this is more likely either; 1) a very sophisticated kidnapping in which the plane, crew and passengers are being held somewhere for a large ransom, or worse; 2) terrorists have taken this aircraft and plan to use it to deliver a payload of (chemical, biological or nuclear weapons?) to a large city, which could make attacks of 9/11 pale in comparison.

Whatever has happened and whatever the outcome, this is a horrible situation. My thoughts and prayers go out to all those affected. I can’t imagine what the family members are going through.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-13 16:21:29 and read 65102 times.

Until the WSJ itself comes out and claims that the information regarding the engine monitoring data was incorrect, I will go with the idea that MAS and the authorities are not telling us everything they know and the plane did keep flying for some time. And I will start to think that the following scenarios are the most likely, especially given that the transponder just stopped transmitting during ATC handover and because not a single related debris has been found after searching for days around its last known location:

1- Pilot hijacking - Transponder turned off during handover (only the pilots know at what precise time this would be) and one pilot with his helpers flys the plane to a location within range and landed. Who knows what would be going on now.

2- Pilot suicide - Transponder turned off during handover (only the pilots know at what precise time this would be) and one pilot flys the plane to an area so far off course that it might never be found.

3- Hijacking - Hijackers enter the cockpit (maybe storm the area when a pilot opens the door to go to the toilet - possible if a FA was involved and let people into the door area). They turn the transponder off and fly to where ever they intend or crash the plane. The timing of the transponder going off is just a fluke.

4- Decompression leading to hypoxia - The plane depressurizes after a small hole opens in an area that would damage transmitting equipment, pilots set heading to turn back west towards Malaysia and set a low altitude. Pilots, for some reason, also are overcome by hypoxia. Plane continues flying west or south west at a low altitude until it runs out of fuel, somewhere in the middle of the Indian ocean - or even in the Pacific somewhere if the plane stayed on its current heading.

I still think that the transponder is the key clue. If transponders on other planes have failed before, how many of those planes went missing too? Also, why aren't MAS releasing the exact fuel load? If they know that the Captain requested hours more fuel than needed then I think they would still be trying to hide that information in order to save face until they absolutely needed to release the figures.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: William60
Posted 2014-03-13 16:21:42 and read 64977 times.

Been lurking, and now a member. Have learned a lot the past few days and my hat goes off to the many fine thinkers and posters here. Impressive, and insightful.

I am afraid this may well be a suicide mission, terrible and cowardly.

The manner in which the operator shunned communications, and, headed
for the vastness of the Indian Ocean, is troublesome.

If it falls under an act of terror, I think it may mark a new, or somewhat independent
approach.

Worldwide attention. Mystery. Loss of life. Fear/terror. No claims necessary.

It may also have been suicide caused by severe depression, and the avoidance
of detection, not wanting to be found, done to spare shame which might haunt
the operator's family.

God be with all those victimized by this tragedy.

Hope the search efforts can work what looks like a necessary miracle.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: mcoatc
Posted 2014-03-13 16:21:56 and read 64917 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 63):
A simple possibility maybe...a slowly professing fire in the electronics bay...is there boxes for the transponders and VHF radios in the Avionics bay where the ACARS system is located?

And this same fire wouldn't create other faults that might generate an ACARS message prior to that system being disabled itself? The fire would have not allowed any radio transmissions, but the plane would have still been flyable for hours? Methinks not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-13 16:25:49 and read 64696 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 70):
I still think that the transponder is the key clue. If transponders on other planes have failed before, how many of those planes went missing too?

Worth mentioning that just 3 days ago, Air India 127 (a 777-300ER) had its transponder fail 3 hours en route to Chicago. The aircraft turned back to Dehli.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...-take-off/articleshow/31776979.cms

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 16:26:35 and read 63956 times.

Also, this information #52, it appears is from Malaysian authorities, not US. May be with US assistance, but US is not apparently directly releasing these separate systems shutdown information.

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:30:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-13 16:27:07 and read 64006 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 73):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 70):
I still think that the transponder is the key clue. If transponders on other planes have failed before, how many of those planes went missing too?

Worth mentioning that just 3 days ago, Air India 127 (a 777-300ER) had its transponder fail 3 hours en route to Chicago. The aircraft turned back to Dehli.

Exactly. The plane did not go missing like MH370...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chrcaremanav
Posted 2014-03-13 16:29:27 and read 63889 times.

Hi! Here is an article from Mr Ben Sandilands, what I like about Him, is that He is does not chew His words.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...uspicions-persist-despite-denials/

You can read His other articles also, They are very good.

Have a nice night or day where ever You are. Take care!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-13 16:31:03 and read 63846 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 21):
So where would they have landed, if they did ?

Here is a map with airfield locations:



I pulled the locations off of the interweb, so they are probably not complete...

link to live map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934

SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-13 16:31:58 and read 63246 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 75):
Exactly. The plane did not go missing like MH370...

My point was merely to suggest these things can happen. Combined with another issue - be it fire, structural failure, engine failure - which could be unrelated or the cause of the initial issue, things could go very wrong. There could have been a hydraulics loss as seen in JAL123 or UA232. There could have been a oxygen loss event, like Helios 522 or Payne Stewart's Learjet 35.

Most often, air disasters are not attributable to a single cause but rather a chain of events. A transponder failure + something else could result in a fateful occurrence. AI 127 was fortunate in that they only had a single failure to deal with.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ROSWELL41
Posted 2014-03-13 16:32:57 and read 63149 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 70):
I still think that the transponder is the key clue. If transponders on other planes have failed before, how many of those planes went missing too? Also, why aren't MAS releasing the exact fuel load? If they know that the Captain requested hours more fuel than needed then I think they would still be trying to hide that information in order to save face until they absolutely needed to release the figures.

This is key. Losing the transponder and having no further VHF or HF communications points to an act done intentionally. The way aircraft systems are designed, an electrical failure would not disable all of these systems simultaneously. Sadly, I doubt we will ever know the truth and this speculation will continue ad infinitum.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 16:33:41 and read 63030 times.

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 77):
Here is a map with airfield locations:

But does this include abandoned airports? Also, if it were a planned incident, they could have built a rudimentary lading strip somewhere...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LXLucien
Posted 2014-03-13 16:34:43 and read 62625 times.

Posted this already in the last thread, but does anybody know how many Satellite Telephones there are on board the MH 777 ?
Every Seat? Only in the Galley? Only in the Cockpit?

Thanks

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ROSWELL41
Posted 2014-03-13 16:36:01 and read 62336 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 67):
Why assuming just the Captain? It could be the FO, it COULD also be both...

Fair enough. I can't prove any of this. My only speculation that it would be the captain is due to his greater experience on the 777, in flying in general and the likelihood that an older person may have more 'life issues' than his younger, 27 year old first officer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2014-03-13 16:36:05 and read 62572 times.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 22):
- Suicide I think is highly unlikely. Why fly for another 4 hours to commit suicide? Why turn off the transponder?

A suicidal pilot could have depressurized the aircraft (after locking the other pilot out of the cockpit when he left to use the lavatory) and when the suicidal pilot passed out from lack of oxygen, the aircraft would have kept flying on autopiot until it ran out of fuel.

Anything is possible at this stage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-13 16:37:16 and read 62369 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 80):
Quoting socalgeo (Reply 77):Here is a map with airfield locations:
But does this include abandoned airports? Also, if it were a planned incident, they could have built a rudimentary lading strip somewhere...

Nope, but I'm working on it.... But I'm sure that the US Navy already has them loaded up on their systems.... Still, there isnt alot of options out there anyway....Socotra looks interesting to me.... If the plane could get there....

SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: CheezWhiz
Posted 2014-03-13 16:39:05 and read 62364 times.

Hello all,

I was browsing through images on the Tomnod website last night and stumbled across images of 3 objects that looked more interesting than the thousands of other images I've looked at. I bought a membership to Airliners.net so that I could share them with you.

Each of the objects are approximately 100 feet in length, similar in size and shape to an aircraft wing or fuselage section. The objects are also grouped nearby one another. Two of the objects are approximately 1/2 mile apart, North to South. The third object lies approximately 2 miles to the West of the other two objects.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/22343
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/23963
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/23166

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: teo747
Posted 2014-03-13 16:40:11 and read 61753 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 80):
But does this include abandoned airports? Also, if it were a planned incident, they could have built a rudimentary lading strip somewhere...

Without anyone noticing? This isn't a James Bond movie in which they can land a huge airliner and taxi it into the underground volcano lair. With all the surveillance and satellite imaging capability out there, if there were a 777 sitting on the ground somewhere it isn't supposed to be, it would be utterly shocking to find out that it hasn't been found by now.

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:41:14]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 16:40:29 and read 61813 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 70):

Until the WSJ itself comes out and claims that the information regarding the engine monitoring data was incorrect, I will go with the idea that MAS and the authorities are not telling us everything they know and the plane did keep flying for some time.

As pointed out by someone in the previous thread WSJ are backtracking. There was no engine data sent, just attempts at establishing a data link as others have also discussed in subsequent posts.

Throughout the roughly four hours after the jet dropped from civilian radar screens, these people said, the link operated in a kind of standby mode and sought to establish contact with a satellite or satellites. These transmissions did not include data, they said, but the periodic contacts indicate to investigators that the plane was still intact and believed to be flying.

Posted 2014-03-13 16:42:11 and read 61342 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
They are saying ACARS(Data Reporting System) went down @1:07AM and Transponders @1:21AM. That could indicate electric fire.

Flightradar has data till 1:21, meaning ADS-B was transmitting till then.
Actually this is the best and only factual data the public has. Everything else is noise.

That little data we have indicates that suddenly, before disappearing, the plane went from it's FL to 0. Obviously that can't be right, and the airspeed is still there. So something failed, and after it failed, the plane disappeared. It's interesting that heading and altitude change at the same data point. I don't know the interval between the points... could be they initiated and finished the turn and then something happened. Still, interesting that it happens at exactly the same moment.

- what could cause such a data point?
- what would happen to AP if it suddenly received altitude input of 0 ft?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-13 16:43:20 and read 61263 times.

Quoting CheezWhiz (Reply 85):

Hi CheezWhiz, welcome to you!

To me all photos contain ships.

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:44:33]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: OTF
Posted 2014-03-13 16:45:00 and read 60804 times.

Quoting teo747 (Reply 86):

Each of the objects are approximately 100 feet in length, similar in size and shape to an aircraft wing or fuselage section. The objects are also grouped nearby one another. Two of the objects are approximately 1/2 mile apart, North to South. The third object lies approximately 2 miles to the West of the other two objects.

They look like boats, maybe fishing trawlers to me?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Snowjob
Posted 2014-03-13 16:46:16 and read 60564 times.

Long time a.net member but first time forum poster.

Firstly, thanks for letting me be part of this community....99% of the time i just like browsing the photos...and kudos to all of the plane-spotters who share them. But in weeks like this (or in the case with OZ 214) the discourse on this site is, for the most part, fantastic and revealing and has unequivocally satisfied my craving for info of all things aviation related. Multiple theories presented, multiple analyses discussed, multiple bases of knowledge shared. And many people -- as evidenced by their posts -- really wanting to help 'figure it out'. What continues to amaze me is that this site typically has relevant info or theories or perspectives or discussions....hours and hours before the mainstream media get around to discussing them (often poorly).

Secondly, thanks to the mods for doing a masterful job with this over what I imagine where an overwhelming 6 days.

Thirdly, and IMHO, in light of the WSJ story this a.m.....and the recent ABC News reportage within the last hour...would seem to confirm suspicions of a nefarious action ("purposeful act") behind the disappearance of this airplane. If this turns out to be true....let me just say that I hope the a.net community, as more and more facts are revealed, can effect positive change in aviation through their discourse and ideas on this forum.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: philask
Posted 2014-03-13 16:46:29 and read 60468 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 88):
- what could cause such a data point?
- what would happen to AP if it suddenly received altitude input of 0 ft?

If it was a fire then it's not unreasonable to think that the fire could take out the communication links between sensors and the ADS-B unit which would be getting invalid readings (but still relaying them), I would imagine if the AP gets "out of scope" readings it disengages.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-13 16:47:05 and read 60459 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 78):
My point was merely to suggest these things can happen.

I understand. I was just suggesting that if a faulty transponder was the only problem then this story wouldn't be news.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 87):
As pointed out by someone in the previous thread WSJ are backtracking.

Sorry, I missed that. I wonder if they are being 'forced' to backtrack by a higher power in the know?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: CheezWhiz
Posted 2014-03-13 16:47:39 and read 60626 times.

Quoting 456 (Reply 89):

Yes, the images could be ships. I've seen a lot of ships in the Tomnod imagery, however most of them appeared larger and more well-defined.

Edit: ...and thank you for the "Welcome!"  Smile

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:56:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-13 16:58:15 and read 58513 times.

Quoting philask (Reply 92):
If it was a fire then it's not unreasonable to think that the fire could take out the communication links between sensors and the ADS-B unit which would be getting invalid readings (but still relaying them), I would imagine if the AP gets "out of scope" readings it disengages.

All right! And probably we can rule out:
- hypoxia, as it wouldn't cause the altitude to drop to 0
- manual pilot intervention / hijacking, as there's probably no way to cut this link manually
- suicide, as we would have more data points in between, gradually losing altitude (and gaining speed)

Whatever happened was sudden.

Now for those who know T7: where could the damage which would be capable of disabling altitude indication or link to ADS-B happen? The bay below the cockpit? In the cockpit?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: PIKtoYEG
Posted 2014-03-13 17:00:15 and read 58123 times.

Have the NTSB confirmed who the Lead Investigator is for MH370?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: lweber557
Posted 2014-03-13 17:01:08 and read 58252 times.

Not sure if my theory has been brought up yet but I'm not reading through 20+ threads to see if it was.

In some kind of freak error chain the aircraft could have lost all comm, nav systems, and cabin pressure. The pilots would then be forced to make an emergency decent to a lower altitude. Being at night without any comm or nav and possibly without engines (everthing is specualtion) the pilots are forced to ditch into the sea. The aircraft remains mostly intact but takes on a significant amount of water because it is damaged in the night water landing and sinks instantly. Or it breaks into afew pieces that quickly sink. Either way the only survivors who make it out didn't have life rafts or flotation devices and are lost at sea. And 95% of the aircraft is at the bottom of the ocean.

I know its out there but as I already said every theory is speculation until they find MH370 and those black boxes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 17:02:34 and read 58005 times.

Thank you, rcair1, for updating your already excellent summary!  

So we have a development here - that ACARS and the transponder quitted at different times.

Quoting ukair (Reply 61):

See here - http://mh370.wikia.com/wiki/Mh370_Wiki - we have a nice collection of information there, complete with links.

This service is free of charge. And anybody can contribute. 
Quoting socalgeo (Reply 77):
Here is a map with airfield locations:

It's great work you're doing!  


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: questions
Posted 2014-03-13 17:02:56 and read 57807 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 83):
the aircraft would have kept flying on autopiot until it ran out of fuel.

Has any source indicated the estimated maximum flying time based on the amount of fuel the aircraft had?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 17:03:18 and read 57832 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 88):
That little data we have indicates that suddenly, before disappearing, the plane went from it's FL to 0.

IIRC someone explained in one of the first threads on the first day if there is no ADSB data sent you could get a zero altitude

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 17:04:24 and read 57622 times.

Quoting teo747 (Reply 86):
Without anyone noticing? This isn't a James Bond movie in which they can land a huge airliner and taxi it into the underground volcano lair. With all the surveillance and satellite imaging capability out there, if there were a 777 sitting on the ground somewhere it isn't supposed to be, it would be utterly shocking to find out that it hasn't been found by now.

While this may not be James Bond, it could be that the people responsible for monitoring such surveillance could be in on whatever is going on. Also, if it were an abandoned airport front he vietnam war, why would anyone notice an aircraft going into an old airport that is out in the middle of nowhere?

I am simply saying that if someone of power either knows what happened, or contributed and is staying silent for personal gain, why would anyone be shocked that it has not been found yet?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: OTF
Posted 2014-03-13 17:05:30 and read 57487 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 99):
Has any source indicated the estimated maximum flying time based on the amount of fuel the aircraft had?

I think it was mentioned they had enough fuel to fly to PEK plus another 2 hours flying time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cjg225
Posted 2014-03-13 17:05:46 and read 57525 times.

Quoting lweber557 (Reply 97):

I've thought about that, as well, but I just can't see there being a "soft" landing like that where no one gets out without flotation devices.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:10:03 and read 56652 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 96):
Have the NTSB confirmed who the Lead Investigator is for MH370

Unless the plane made it to Hawaii and then crashed the NTSB will not lead the investigation (unless asked to by the country in whose territory the plane actually crashed).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-13 17:10:50 and read 56833 times.

Food for thought, and possibly also eye candy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZRwv_568Y

IF the 777 has landed somewhere, it just needed a reasonably hard and flat surface... and the "runway" length can be somewhat reduced, as a plus.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2014-03-13 17:10:56 and read 56576 times.

What id like to know is, for those that are mechanics etc, what scenarios sees a gradual destruction of equipment allowing one communication system to be shut down 10 minutes before the other?

I also struggle to understand why people are so into terrorism and the plane being shot down because of it.
That scenario falls by the simple fact that any country that shoot down an airline because its been taken over by terrorists in the post 9/11 world will receive full understanding from the rest of the world and have nothing to gain from covering it all up. To the contrary.

As far as i can see the 49 most likely scenarios is different failures on the plane. The 50th is someone committing suicide and not wanting to be found.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):

We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.
- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.
* Complaints continue and will despite what any authority does till something happens.

I think that youll find that for as long as the Malaysians held press conferences that stated facts that immediately got contradicted by other speakers, people said they were incompetent. When they stopped making gaffe after gaffe and got their act together during their pressbriefings the complaints more or less ended.
Since then the pressbriefings might be frustrating since they yield very little new info but the mistakes have stopped and so has much of the complaints about the Malaysians efforts.

To avoid being seen as incompetent dont answer things you dont know anything about. it took the malaysian politicians sometime to understand that. Its very different to face the international press compared to a press that works under very strict rules that allows a politician to get away with any white lie.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2014-03-13 17:13:31 and read 56277 times.

Quoting lweber557 (Reply 97):
Not sure if my theory has been brought up yet but I'm not reading through 20+ threads to see if it was.

In some kind of freak error chain the aircraft could have lost all comm, nav systems, and cabin pressure. The pilots would then be forced to make an emergency decent to a lower altitude. Being at night without any comm or nav and possibly without engines (everthing is specualtion) the pilots are forced to ditch into the sea. The aircraft remains mostly intact but takes on a significant amount of water because it is damaged in the night water landing and sinks instantly. Or it breaks into afew pieces that quickly sink. Either way the only survivors who make it out didn't have life rafts or flotation devices and are lost at sea. And 95% of the aircraft is at the bottom of the ocean.

I know its out there but as I already said every theory is speculation until they find MH370 and those black boxes.

At least your speculation is simple. And there would still be several hours until sunrise for possible floating broken pieces to sink and go unnoticed (and all following day(s) until high-res imagery satellites started to be used).
Now, who knows what that radar signal caught in the Malacca straight was?
I'm sure there are occasional artifacts in radar data (like any other data set -I know it by experience as I collect and process analytical data for a living...) that get unnoticed, because no one needs to look meticulously at most of data that radars automatically collect.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-13 17:14:06 and read 55993 times.

Quoting CheezWhiz (Reply 85):
I was browsing through images on the Tomnod website last night and stumbled across images of 3 objects that looked more interesting than the thousands of other images I've looked at. I bought a membership to Airliners.net so that I could share them with you.

Each of the objects are approximately 100 feet in length, similar in size and shape to an aircraft wing or fuselage section. The objects are also grouped nearby one another. Two of the objects are approximately 1/2 mile apart, North to South. The third object lies approximately 2 miles to the West of the other two objects.

I have seen a few of these so far, and while I cannot claim any kind of certainty, I believe them to be whales. The size is right, the shape is right, the bow wake is right, and they are all travelling in the same direction, suggesting a pod of some kind (though rorquals, which anything that size would have to be, don't necessarily travel in pods). Some even appear to have small puffs of vapor nearby, suggesting blowhole blast.

I may be wrong. To me, they look like whales.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:14:24 and read 56114 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 106):
That scenario falls by the simple fact that any country that shoot down an airline because its been taken over by terrorists in the post 9/11 world will receive full understanding from the rest of the world and have nothing to gain from covering it all up.

For killing 200+ innocent people when they could have followed the plane until an obvious target was apparent?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:14:35 and read 56207 times.

Good morning a.nutters! My, my but isn't this still interesting. Day seven!

On a side note, I wonder how many new subscriptions a.nut is getting. Happy to see so many lurkers coming out to play.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 2):
I was watching CNN and thought of this question. I apologize if it has been asked before, but I do not think this exact one was asked before. What if all of the communications and satellite equipment just died - due to mechanical issues - and the pilots got turned around to the point where they were running out of fuel and tried to land safely in the water, but failed to do it safely?

It seems extremely unlikely that all that equipment AND the instruments died at the same time.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 16):
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."

Why would the shut down of the two systems be separated by more than 10 minutes?

From the vague info we have, and discounting the "still alive" claims, ACARS simply sent the last report at 1:07. We don't know if and when it shut down.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 28):
What time was "all right good night" and what sort of warning does flight deck get if ACARS fails?

Presumably an error message on the MFD (or whatever Boeing calls the MFD) and/or the FMC.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 33):

Quoting KIAS (Reply 14):
I personally do not subscribe to the hijiacking theories. I think we will learn this was a catastrophic event which may have also involved the electrical systems.

You know I looked at as much passenger info as I could get and I just didn't see it happening. How would the passengers even know how to turn off the various comms devices. I don't see the pilots slamming it into the sea either but its certainly possible.

Is it possible they got signals from under the sea? Somehow off battery power?

Nah. The water would block the signal.

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 47):
One thing clearly stands out. A fast impact with the ocean will leave few pieces larger than
your typical floor mat, and no structure of the aircraft will retain airpockets large enough to float.
that leaves Overhead compartments contents and pieces of foam from seats.

Au contraire. AF447 and Adam Air crashed at a high rate of speed and there were still large pieces found.

Quoting teo747 (Reply 86):
Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 80):
But does this include abandoned airports? Also, if it were a planned incident, they could have built a rudimentary lading strip somewhere...

Without anyone noticing? This isn't a James Bond movie in which they can land a huge airliner and taxi it into the underground volcano lair. With all the surveillance and satellite imaging capability out there, if there were a 777 sitting on the ground somewhere it isn't supposed to be, it would be utterly shocking to find out that it hasn't been found by now.

Yes but wouldn't an underground volcano lair be awesome? 


Answers from previous two threads. Apologies for any duplication.

SSTeve: Also, is the engine data sent to RR technically "ACARS?"

Anaswer: Yes it is. ACARS covers a wide range of stuff, including free text messaging.


SQ452: I have talked to my friends in the PR industry on this and the overwhelming consensus on this is they have completely failed to do a proper job managing this crisis. This crisis management and how information was shared, disseminated and then contradicted will be a case study on exactly what NOT to do. Failure to have control of the information flow and coordination of information has given the impression they are unable to properly coordinate this SAR.

Answer: Agreed. I talked about this about five threads ago. The first and biggest mistake was not to assign an experienced person to be the only contact with the press, and to muzzle everyone else.


hivue: This aircraft never reached a gate. If RR gets their engine data by gatelink after the flight then that makes the story sound like just another groundless rumor.

Answer: It would make sense to send brief summaries in flight, in case anything needed maintenance on landing, and then do the whole download at the gate.


B-HOP: Did anyone feel fuel load mentioned say something, if its a five and a half hour flight, why then the Captain take an extra two hour worth of fuel and more to be burnt enroute, was fog forcasted in Beijing? No wonder MH loses money, does that gave a red herring away?

Answer: For a flight of this length, 2 hours of fuel beyond trip fuel would be pretty normal. Taking the most common applicable fuel regulation, this would be fuel to reach an alternate airport in case of diversion, contingency fuel (5% minimum ) and final reserve (30 minutes).


captainx: Can all the transmitters on the plane be turned off from the cockpit - yes or no?

Answer: No. To cut ACARS you need to access the electronics bay behind and under the cockpit.


sennabestever: This is probably way far fetched but since I know nothing about space and how high commercial airlines can get I'll throw it out there just for my own curiosity. What if they plane had a mechanical issue that knocked out comms and put it into an uncontrollable ascent? Is it possible it's floating around up there in near space? Assuming NO, but just curious if this would even be possible?

Answer: No that isn't even remotely possible. An airliner could reach maybe 45000-50000 feet depending on weight. That's too low to achieve a stable orbit due to atmospheric drag, and besides the speed would be much much too low for orbit.


captainx: It only takes 6000 feet to land a 777.

Answer: Nowhere near that far. At low weights the published distance is 4500 feet, but that includes the mandated safety factor and assumes 50ft height at the threshold. Removing the safety factor gives 2695 feet and if you assume 20ft at the threshold you're cutting a few more hundred ft.


flyingturtle: I think Starlionblue mentioned 4500 ft for a lightly loaded/fueled 777, and 3000 ft if you have balls (and don't plan to take off again). On a grass strip, it could be even less.

Answer: Actually grass would make the distance longer. Less friction for the brakes. Also you are quite likely to sink in and damage something. You could land a 727 or 737 on grass/gravel but a 777 stretches the imagination unless you had a very well prepared compacted gravel base with perhaps those metal mesh "instant runway" things the military used to use.


boacvc10: Also: Is this not a situation where we can say it is the Titanic of all aviation disasters?

Answer: Not really. With the Titanic the news and location was already out before the ship sank. This is more Marie Celeste at this point.


nupogodi: The 404th and it can't be found... What a coincidence.

Answer: For the record, I'm not superstitious. However interestingly the number four is very unlucky in Chinese culture because it sounds similar to "death". The majority of buildings in HK don't
have a fourth or fourteenth floor.


FltAdmiralRitt: Air France 447 did leave some larger debris on the surface, but you will recall it impacted the water with almost level wings and belly flopped, stalling at a 1:1 stall ratio or so. it was not moving at maximum speed. closer to 200Knts Considering how rugged the 777, it might have stayed intact while plunging in at far greater speed.

Answer: There's no evidence that a 777 would withstand a given impact better than a 330. They are built to the same specification standards and Boeing is not in the habit of making the structure heavier than it needs to be. Also, what do you mean by "1:1 stall ratio"?


hivue: It took one 767 each to bring down the WTC towers. A 777 gone totally missing is indeed not a comfortable thought.

Answer: Actually it took two, but I take your point.


BruceSmith: Further into speculation, how would a high voltage short on one of the power buses affect cockpit equipment? Could it blow something critical to steering the aircraft leaving the pilots with no input into the flight? Could it trigger a localized fire in the cockpit similar to the Egyptair MS 667 incident that asphyxiated the pilots and left the plane flying stable until it ran out of fuel or lost altitude? A quickish incapacitation by smoke inhalation might explain the heading change if one of the pilots hit a rudder pedal or the yoke during the asphyxiation.

Answer: The radios are not on the same bus as the flight controls, and they're not all on the same bus either. And you'd have to hold the yoke or rudder positively for a bit to make the autopilot to switch off.


Difrano789: Cockpit hit by a very small meteor, destroy the instruments and incapacitate or kill both pilots, no instruments no transponders no comms, the damage is not enough to break the plane and debris so small that impossible to trace on ground, computers still working and able to keep control on surfaces and throttle, due to destruction of the autopilot console the computer may have received any signal, for example heading 280, altitude FL298, and it flew until ran out of fuel somewhere in the world?

Answer: The problem with this is that if the meteor only takes the radios and transponder and leaves the flight controls and throttle, ACARS would still be functioning since it is in the electronics bay. Also, there would have been debris. Somewhere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: savethequads
Posted 2014-03-13 17:15:03 and read 56283 times.

I am an aerospace engineer. I don't know that much about the 772 in particular, I have never worked on it. I'm quite familiar with how Boeing builds their fly by wire systems, but not so sure how it would operate.)

I'm wondering why the idea of a Egypt Air 667 type disaster just after reaching cruising altitude was discounted so early in these threads?

I have seen some crazy things in my years, some of which I can't talk about. I have seen some awful, awful wire repair on aircraft and I have also seen some unlikely things when dealing with aircraft electrical systems. I don't know how many times I have heard "That can't happen" .... well it just did. I have seen melted LRUs, I have seen circuit cards fused to each other. melted wire bundles, unrelated systems causing faults in other unrelated systems. I have seen employees put pin little r where pin R should go more times than I can count. I have seen jets with ticking time bombs in their wiring systems.

I just can't help but think, a fire or a critical LRU going off line to cause this.

I think there is too much hype in the media right now regarding everything about this tragedy and too much optimistic speculation, this jet has crashed. I don't know why people love the hijack or suicide theory so much. There are so many things things that can cause an aircraft to exhibit the behaviors believed to have happened regarding

I have read the evidence and nothing stands out as solid evidence of a deliberate act. The jet turned back, systems turned off separately, so what? but do I get the lack of distress call being suspicious in this scenario.

If a fire broke out, it could start knocking systems off one by one. When the crew finally figured out there was a fire they might have tried to do something about it and turn back to Kuala Lampur, but then it could have been too late.

Maybe a 777 guru can tell me this. If the Autopilot were on and a fire broke out and you had a heading of 24 selected and you changed it to 190 but the signal cut out between pilot inputs and the flight control surfaces half way through the turn what would the aircraft do? Would it try to level it's wings? would it shut off? would it continue flying with the same attitude as when the signal was lost. I looked though C-17 manuals, but couldn't find any possible solid answer other than It would depend on this this or this and how bad this this and this system was degraded.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2014-03-13 17:16:44 and read 55823 times.

I thought that after 9/11, that it was mandated that the transponders could not be turned off while the aircraft is in the air mode. This includes pulling the circuit breakers that power the the transponders. If anyone can correct me, please do. Any time that there is no weight on the landing gear the squat switches put the aircraft in the air mode.   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-13 17:17:50 and read 55998 times.

There is a new Wall Street Journal article this evening indicating that there was 4 more hours of some sort of maintenance communication the aircraft was trying to make through satellite link. They are not specific if it is ACARS. WSJ seem to be the only ones who may have some insider contacts and the authorities are downplaying each time all they published since this morning.

If this is true, then the theory of cockpit intervention is making sense more and more. Turning off transponders, and VHF Data Link radios for the ACARS system is more straight forward through the control tuning panel. But shutting down the Satellite communication is not as straight forward and may have not been turned off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-13 17:17:58 and read 55734 times.

About ACARS and transponder being shut at different times. (1:07 and 1:21, I have read)

When was the ATC last communication with pilot?. Was it before the two events?. Had it been after any, it will discard fire as a cause, won't it? Would it raise alarms on the pilot?

(Sorry if it is already explained, but I haven't found in all this stuff)


On the other hand, if the plane was hijacked to a hidden/secret airport at night. How achievable would be to fly and land safely at night in those circunstantes? . What flight systems could be available for the aircraft to fly safely in this scenario (in and out the plane)?
(Pardon my ignorance, I suppose some avionics knowledge would be enough, but I don't have)

Thanks

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-13 17:18:04 and read 55378 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 100):
IIRC someone explained in one of the first threads on the first day if there is no ADSB data sent you could get a zero altitude

But that makes no sense. If data package is not sent, why would it be in the database and why would location, heading and speed be there?

Quoting savethequads (Reply 111):
I have seen some crazy things in my years, some of which I can't talk about. I have seen some awful, awful wire repair on aircraft and I have also seen some unlikely things when dealing with aircraft electrical systems. I don't know how many times I have heard "That can't happen" .... well it just did. I have seen melted LRUs, I have seen circuit cards fused to each other. melted wire bundles, unrelated systems causing faults in other unrelated systems. I have seen employees put pin little r where pin R should go more times than I can count. I have seen jets with ticking time bombs in their wiring systems.

I just can't help but think, a fire or a critical LRU going off line to cause this.

I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I find this the most reasonable explanation as well.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:22:11]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: teo747
Posted 2014-03-13 17:19:15 and read 55346 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 101):
While this may not be James Bond, it could be that the people responsible for monitoring such surveillance could be in on whatever is going on. Also, if it were an abandoned airport front he vietnam war, why would anyone notice an aircraft going into an old airport that is out in the middle of nowhere?

I am simply saying that if someone of power either knows what happened, or contributed and is staying silent for personal gain, why would anyone be shocked that it has not been found yet?

But surely there are multiple entities looking at this data - we've already seen satellite data provided by the US (Tomnod) and China (suspected debris photos), so it seems pretty implausible that everyone who could find this plane would be in on it and hiding something. We will see...but I am 99.9999% confident that this plane is at the bottom of the ocean - we just don't know where yet.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cjg225
Posted 2014-03-13 17:19:44 and read 55530 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 104):

Unless the plane made it to Hawaii and then crashed the NTSB will not lead the investigation (unless asked to by the country in whose territory the plane actually crashed).

Or the Marianas or Guam or American Samoa....  
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):

Au contraire. AF447 and Adam Air crashed at a high rate of speed and there were still large pieces found.

I think what people are talking about is a very, very steep high-velocity impact, whereas AF 447 struck at a much shallower angle.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:21:02 and read 55109 times.

I know this has been asked a bunch, but I have yet to see an answer, but has there been any official disclosure about how much fuel was actually loaded. I freely admit I could have missed it.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 2):
and the pilots got turned around to the point where they were running out of fuel and tried to land safely in the water, but failed to do it safely?

That is definitely a possibility and a really sad one if you think about it.

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 10):
Andy Pasztor of the Wall Street Journal now reporting that US officials are now exploring the possibility that MH370 in fact landed somewhere rather than crashing. This has always been a point of speculation, but it appears the US Govt is now taking it more seriously.

I've been saying it since I think post 7, I really think someone should look into Chinese espionage. I know the current theory is that it flew to the Indian Ocean, but if that detail wasn't true, and it continued to fly north, I think it's possible. I started off just thinking it was a crazy possibility. I am slightly more convinced.

Quoting 345tas (Reply 13):
Two U.S. officials tell ABC News the U.S. believes that the shutdown of two communication systems happened separately on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. One source said this indicates the plane did not come out of the sky because of a catastrophic failure

That would certainly lead one to believe direct intervention by the pilot.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 62):
I have not yet read any plausible scenario for mechanical failure. A hijacking would provide enough time to get out some type of distress signal. This was sabotage by one of the pilots - most likely the captain.

I agree. I really think one of them could have been recruited, locked the other one out, turned everything off, descended to 29,500, flew a route that took it around known Radar, and then what Radar it did get picked up on by the Chinese government, covered up and proceeded to a remote landing site. Meanwhile, the Chinese release satellite imagery as a red herring, hoping people eventually think it just plummeted to the ocean.

Quoting teo747 (Reply 86):
Without anyone noticing? This isn't a James Bond movie in which they can land a huge airliner and taxi it into the underground volcano lair.

I bet you could in remote parts of China. There are some crazy Chinese landing strips out there that aren't official airports.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:22:41 and read 54817 times.

Quoting PIKtoYEG (Reply 96):
Have the NTSB confirmed who the Lead Investigator is for MH370?

The NTSB will not be leading this investigation as it didn't happen on US territory, except I think if it was over international waters and Malaysia requests the US to lead. Not sure.

Not sure about territorial waters at the vanishing point but I think it was either Malaysia or Vietnam.

This actually leads us sideways to an interesting point: If the plane is never found, who leads the investigation? The country above where it disappeared?

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 106):
What id like to know is, for those that are mechanics etc, what scenarios sees a gradual destruction of equipment allowing one communication system to be shut down 10 minutes before the other?

Fire.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:23:45 and read 54806 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):
Answer: No. To cut ACARS you need to access the electronics bay behind and under the cockpit.

I think you mean to cut off SATCOM, right?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):
hivue: It took one 767 each to bring down the WTC towers. A 777 gone totally missing is indeed not a comfortable thought.

Answer: Actually it took two, but I take your point.

No. As I said it took one each.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):
From the vague info we have, and discounting the "still alive" claims, ACARS simply sent the last report at 1:07. We don't know if and when it shut down.

If the plane flew on till it ran out of gas, surely ACARS would have something to say.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: teo747
Posted 2014-03-13 17:25:23 and read 54612 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
I've been saying it since I think post 7, I really think someone should look into Chinese espionage. I know the current theory is that it flew to the Indian Ocean, but if that detail wasn't true, and it continued to fly north, I think it's possible. I started off just thinking it was a crazy possibility. I am slightly more convinced.

But what motivation does the Chinese government have to undertake such a ridiculously elaborate plot to steal a 777 and cover it up, when its own countries' airlines are already flying 777s all over the world every day?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:26:20 and read 54419 times.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 117):
Or the Marianas or Guam or American Samoa

Correct. I guess I'm geographically challenged.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:26:48 and read 54608 times.

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 77):
I pulled the locations off of the interweb, so they are probably not complete...

link to live map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934

This is a great map.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: DBCooper
Posted 2014-03-13 17:27:50 and read 54364 times.

So if ACARS and the transponder were switched off...chances are the CVR and FDR were also switched off (I know you can switch the CVR off - less clear if you can switch off the FDR). So even if found..."black boxes" may not yield any info?

- DBC

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:28:19 and read 54073 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 113):

There is a new Wall Street Journal article this evening indicating that there was 4 more hours of some sort of maintenance communication the aircraft was trying to make through satellite link. They are not specific if it is ACARS. WSJ seem to be the only ones who may have some insider contacts and the authorities are downplaying each time all they published since this morning.

If this is true, then the theory of cockpit intervention is making sense more and more. Turning off transponders, and VHF Data Link radios for the ACARS system is more straight forward through the control tuning panel. But shutting down the Satellite communication is not as straight forward and may have not been turned off.

Scroll up. Text search previous posts.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 114):
About ACARS and transponder being shut at different times. (1:07 and 1:21, I have read)

Scroll up. Text search previous posts.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 117):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):

Au contraire. AF447 and Adam Air crashed at a high rate of speed and there were still large pieces found.

I think what people are talking about is a very, very steep high-velocity impact, whereas AF 447 struck at a much shallower angle.

You'd still get debris. When the wings hit the water every the rear half of the plane would concertina and shear, taking up much of the impact load. So the tail would hit much, much slower. You can compare with rocket sled experiments when they slam stuff into concrete. There are still pieces left.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-13 17:28:57 and read 54203 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
I agree. I really think one of them could have been recruited, locked the other one out, turned everything off, descended to 29,500, flew a route that took it around known Radar, and then what Radar it did get picked up on by the Chinese government, covered up and proceeded to a remote landing site. Meanwhile, the Chinese release satellite imagery as a red herring, hoping people eventually think it just plummeted to the ocean.

Come on guys. For what motive? This is not a spy thriller. 239 people are very likely dead.

As has been stated over and over above, what does China want with a 777 that they cannot get by looking at the ones that their national airline OWNS? Why not just steal one of those, or hide it in a hangar and take it apart, if reverse-engineering is the goal? Better yet, why not just read the instruction manual? Come on.

If this was a hijacking, there's NO conceivable reason that some sort of state actor would be involved. All potential players, besides none of them being insane enough to try anything like hijacking and vanishing a foreign aircraft and very likely starting a war, have easier ways to get ahold of 777s, and little to no reason to do so.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cjg225
Posted 2014-03-13 17:31:17 and read 53590 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 125):

You'd still get debris. When the wings hit the water every the rear half of the plane would concertina and shear, taking up much of the impact load. So the tail would hit much, much slower. You can compare with rocket sled experiments when they slam stuff into concrete. There are still pieces left.

I don't think anyone is saying there would be no pieces left.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:31:29 and read 53733 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 120):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):
Answer: No. To cut ACARS you need to access the electronics bay behind and under the cockpit.

I think you mean to cut off SATCOM, right?

No I mean ACARS, but it doesn't matter. ACARS and SATCOM are two different "boxes". ACARS compiles information, and then sends it with SATCOM (in this case). Pulling the breaker(s) on either one would stop ACARS transmissions but I'm pretty sure you need to get to the electronics bay in either case..

Quoting hivue (Reply 120):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):
From the vague info we have, and discounting the "still alive" claims, ACARS simply sent the last report at 1:07. We don't know if and when it shut down.

If the plane flew on till it ran out of gas, surely ACARS would have something to say.

"You seem to be out of fuel. Would you like to place a fuel order now? Have your credit card ready." 
Quoting hivue (Reply 120):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):
hivue: It took one 767 each to bring down the WTC towers. A 777 gone totally missing is indeed not a comfortable thought.

Answer: Actually it took two, but I take your point.

No. As I said it took one each.

Oops! Sorry, I just woke up.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 127):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 125):

You'd still get debris. When the wings hit the water every the rear half of the plane would concertina and shear, taking up much of the impact load. So the tail would hit much, much slower. You can compare with rocket sled experiments when they slam stuff into concrete. There are still pieces left.

I don't think anyone is saying there would be no pieces left.

Fair dinkum.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:34:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: fotoflyer71
Posted 2014-03-13 17:33:03 and read 53410 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 88):
Flightradar has data till 1:21, meaning ADS-B was transmitting till then.
Actually this is the best and only factual data the public has. Everything else is noise.

s5daw, apologies for hijacking your point, but something that has been on my mind during all this is my understanding that ADS-B does not guarantee a factual position. I believe it is possible to inject fake ADS-B transmissions to falsify the location of an aircraft, it's extremely unlikely to have happened in this situation but in my opinion it's only a matter of time before someone attempts to use ADS-B to mask a hijacking event. As far as I've read, there is nothing coded in civilian ADS-B to sign or otherwise verify that a transmission came from the aircraft whose data is being broadcast - it is possible to spoof this transmission. The scenario would go something like this, the aircraft's real ADS-B stream would be sniffed and decoded ahead of time or at the beginning of the flight via freely available decoding solutions. At a predetermined time/ location, the aircraft's real ADS-B broadcasts would be terminated by turning off the transponder. Spoofed transmissions could then be broadcast from anywhere within range of known ADS-B ground stations or the army of home enthusiasts receiving for flightradar24 or flightaware. The spoofed transmissions could include completely false yet believable position, altitude, track, speed data. The squawk code could even be changed to 7600 to signify lost comms. As long as the transmissions were injected every so often along the filed flight plan route I don't see how anyone would be able to tell the aircraft isn't actually there until such time the spoofed target should be in range of PSR and doesn't generate a return, or SSR interrogations aren't replied to properly. Until that time the real aircraft could be flying in a totally different direction.

I really hope as a result of losing this 777 that some changes are made to how aircraft are tracked outside of radar coverage, and particularly to strengthen the integrity of ADS-B. That's just my 2c.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 17:33:52 and read 53348 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 115):
But that makes no sense. If data package is not sent, why would it be in the database and why would location, heading and speed be there?

Likely the receiver did not get the full ADS-B data. Maybe the transponder was shut off during the broadcast and did not send it out, maybe the receiver was just too far from the aircraft and the signal was too noisy to decode.

These ADS-B tracking sites are far from 100% reliable.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:34:45 and read 53243 times.

Quoting teo747 (Reply 121):
But what motivation does the Chinese government have to undertake such a ridiculously elaborate plot to steal a 777 and cover it up, when its own countries' airlines are already flying 777s all over the world every day?

I said it before, I'll say it again. Reverse engineering. And before the other responses get brought up: 1) yes they have access to China Southern's, but that is too obvious because sooner or later someone would ask questions. And
2) it takes YEARS, maybe even decades, to reverse engineer something, so just taking a little while longer in a D-check is not a reverse engineering option.

I know it is far fetched. But it seems less far fetched in thread 20 than it does in thread 7 based on what little we know and can deduce.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 17:35:14 and read 53122 times.

Quoting teo747 (Reply 121):
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
I've been saying it since I think post 7, I really think someone should look into Chinese espionage. I know the current theory is that it flew to the Indian Ocean, but if that detail wasn't true, and it continued to fly north, I think it's possible. I started off just thinking it was a crazy possibility. I am slightly more convinced.

But what motivation does the Chinese government have to undertake such a ridiculously elaborate plot to steal a 777 and cover it up, when its own countries' airlines are already flying 777s all over the world every day?

And they have the resources to buy a brand new one and park it somewhere for ever and never use it.

Unless they are going to use the plane and the dead pax like in the Sherlock Holmes season 2 story! But they could probably get the plane and the bodies more easily than creating a major international incident.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Western727
Posted 2014-03-13 17:36:38 and read 52876 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 126):
As has been stated over and over above, what does China want with a 777 that they cannot get by looking at the ones that their national airline OWNS? Why not just steal one of those, or hide it in a hangar and take it apart, if reverse-engineering is the goal? Better yet, why not just read the instruction manual? Come on.

Thank you. There is nothing "state-of-the-art and secret" about a 772ER model used in the hundreds all over the world.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-13 17:37:05 and read 52908 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
I've been saying it since I think post 7, I really think someone should look into Chinese espionage. I know the current theory is that it flew to the Indian Ocean, but if that detail wasn't true, and it continued to fly north, I think it's possible. I started off just thinking it was a crazy possibility. I am slightly more convinced.
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
I agree. I really think one of them could have been recruited, locked the other one out, turned everything off, descended to 29,500, flew a route that took it around known Radar, and then what Radar it did get picked up on by the Chinese government, covered up and proceeded to a remote landing site. Meanwhile, the Chinese release satellite imagery as a red herring, hoping people eventually think it just plummeted to the ocean.

If it crashed over land in China and they just cleaned up and planted trees. That's a possibility. They don't like a blemish on their aviation safety record. How many times you heard about a blown tire or missed approach.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-13 17:37:50 and read 52890 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 113):
There is a new Wall Street Journal article this evening indicating that there was 4 more hours of some sort of maintenance communication the aircraft was trying to make through satellite link.

Interesting. I have a feeling the plane made it a lot farther than MAS and the current SAR think...

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 105):
IF the 777 has landed somewhere, it just needed a reasonably hard and flat surface... and the "runway" length can be somewhat reduced, as a plus.

I think it would be hard to do at night. If they flew West, and their last trace was at 0107 in the Gulf of Thailand / South China Sea area, and they had 5 hours more fuel (or 7 hours if they took on an extra 2 hours of fuel before departing), it would have had to have flown until sunrise to pull off such a landing. Where could that be? Somewhere on the sub-continent?

Quoting OTF (Reply 102):
Quoting questions (Reply 99):
Has any source indicated the estimated maximum flying time based on the amount of fuel the aircraft had?

I think it was mentioned they had enough fuel to fly to PEK plus another 2 hours flying time.

Can't believe why the exact fuel figure has not yet been made public. That would at least give MAS and the SAR / authorities a maximum radius to consider.

Quoting lweber557 (Reply 97):
the pilots are forced to ditch into the sea. The aircraft remains mostly intact but takes on a significant amount of water because it is damaged in the night water landing and sinks instantly. Or it breaks into afew pieces that quickly sink.

That was my initial opinion. Plenty of time for an intact airframe or large pieces of wreckage to sink before daylight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-13 17:38:43 and read 52649 times.

One pilot could not both fly the plane and go pull the ACARS breaker which is below-deck, below the gally (and not easy to quickly get to) per a 777 pilot just on CNN. Were both involved? I'm guessing they did indeed land it somewhere, because had they wanted to crash they would have done it right away.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:41:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:39:29 and read 52545 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 128):
No I mean ACARS,

From KIAS's post 40 in the previous part:

"Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8):
If you just pull the CB's for the VHF, HF, and SATCOM which I believe are located in the cockpit you've in effect disabled the ACARS.

No. The circuit breakers are located in the E/E bay."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:41:00 and read 52233 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 126):
Come on guys.

Easy now. I think I have kept a tone of recognizing the theory is a bit out there, and have provided answers to reasonable questions. You don't need to be disrespectful, even if you disagree.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 126):
As has been stated over and over above, what does China want with a 777 that they cannot get by looking at the ones that their national airline OWNS?

And as I have stated before, a missing China Southern aircraft that vanishes raises a lot of eyebrows. A suspected down Malyasian plane that is "never found" it is harder to link China to that.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 126):
Why not just steal one of those, or hide it in a hangar and take it apart, if reverse-engineering is the goal? Better yet, why not just read the instruction manual? Come on.

Becuase it takes decades to reverse engineer something and having one of their own planes gone for that long raises questions.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 126):
All potential players, besides none of them being insane enough to try anything like hijacking....

You're telling me there isn't a single pilot in this world that if offer ungodly sums of money for just turning off a transponder, flying a clandestine route to avoid radar until into China, and doing what he does everyday which is land a plane, that would find that so "insane" that not one would take a Chinese intelligence agencies offer. I mean yes, it is at it's root insane. But it does have some logic to it.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 126):
...have easier ways to get ahold of 777s, and little to no reason to do so.

If you wanted to get a hold of 777 for a long time (longer than say a D-check), with out raising eyebrows, what would be an easier way? I am asking this in all sincerity.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 17:41:25 and read 52431 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 136):
One pilot could not both fly the plane and go pull the ACARS breaker which is below-deck, below the gally per a 777 pilot just on CNN. Were both involved? I'm guessing they did indeed land it somewhere, because had they wanted to crash they would have done it right away.

On PPRuNe a 777 pilot mentioned that you can simply turn on/off various ACARS broadcasting modes (VHF/HF/SATCOM) from the computer right there in the cockpit. I am unsure if you can turn them all off from there, but it's likely you wouldn't need to literally pull a breaker to suppress those messages.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-13 17:41:44 and read 52196 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 131):
Reverse engineering. And before the other responses get brought up: 1) yes they have access to China Southern's, but that is too obvious because sooner or later someone would ask questions. And
2) it takes YEARS, maybe even decades, to reverse engineer something, so just taking a little while longer in a D-check is not a reverse engineering option.

Whatever the outcome of this mystery, I don't buy the reverse engineering argument.

This is for many reasons, not the least of which is that this airframe design is a couple of decades old. If you were going to reverse engineer something, you would go for something more state-of-the-art.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-13 17:42:47 and read 51959 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 131):
I said it before, I'll say it again. Reverse engineering.

Reverse engineering of WHAT? This is not a B2 bomber we're talking about here. This is a 15-year old design for a long-haul airliner. The technology on it is advanced but not at all secret. There is nothing on a 777 that does not exist on other aircraft, including Chinese-designed aircraft like those of Comac. It is an exceptionally well-designed airplane, but it is NOT some sort of futuretech god-machine.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:43:46]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 17:43:04 and read 51959 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 138):
If you wanted to get a hold of 777 for a long time (longer than say a D-check), with out raising eyebrows, what would be an easier way? I am asking this in all sincerity.

Buy one. They sell them, you know.

Here's a bargain: http://www.controller.com/listingsde.../2001-BOEING-777-200ER/1314333.htm

52 million! China's government probably spends that every few minutes!

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:46:06]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:43:40 and read 51856 times.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 133):
There is nothing "state-of-the-art and secret" about a 772ER model used in the hundreds all over the world

It isn't about being state of the art and secret. It is about having the time to disemsemable it and re-engineer it. It takes decades.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 132):
And they have the resources to buy a brand new one and park it somewhere for ever and never use it.

I'll say it again because people seem to not read my response to that, they can't do that if they don't want to raise any questions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:43:46 and read 51844 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 128):
"You seem to be out of fuel. Would you like to place a fuel order now? Have your credit card ready."

No. If the engines are fuel starved I'm assuming that ACARS/EHM would phone home with that info.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:46:12]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-13 17:44:25 and read 51663 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
I'll say it again because people seem to not read my response to that, they can't do that if they don't want to raise any questions.

Hijacking an entire airplane full of people doesn't raise questions? Come on.

Consider the cost-benefit analysis here.

Benefits: Well, maybe you learn a few tricks that Boeing uses to build great airplanes, tricks that probably you could have figured out without taking the entire airplane apart, killing the pax, etc. etc. etc.

Costs: If anyone catches you, total annihilation. That would be war.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:46:16]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:45:20 and read 51529 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 139):
but it's likely you wouldn't need to literally pull a breaker to suppress those messages.

But to stop SATCOM from pinging you would need to pull the breaker, right?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-13 17:45:29 and read 51646 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 136):
had they wanted to crash they would have done it right away.

I would suspect they would at least want to fly for long enough (30 mins+) for the CVR to write over itself to get rid of any verbal evidence. Or, if they were really on a mission, they would have just aimed it at a point that would take it to the most remote area possible so it would be hard to find and if the FDRs were ever recovered they would just show a gradual decent rather than full forward pressure on the yoke by the PF...

Also, if the pilots were involved and have taken the plane, I guess they would have known that the plane recently undertook a maintenance check - thus they intentionally took a good / mechanically sound plane for future use...

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:49:19]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: teo747
Posted 2014-03-13 17:46:18 and read 51311 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 131):
I said it before, I'll say it again. Reverse engineering. And before the other responses get brought up: 1) yes they have access to China Southern's, but that is too obvious because sooner or later someone would ask questions. And
2) it takes YEARS, maybe even decades, to reverse engineer something, so just taking a little while longer in a D-check is not a reverse engineering option.

They could just say that one of the existing 777s had a major mechanical failure and has been written off if they wanted to get one to study. Or buy a new one. Seems easier than somehow collaborating with Malaysian pilots to steal a 777 out of the air with over 200 innocent people on board who would need to be killed or held prisoner for years upon years to keep everything covered up. Plus, if a missing Malaysian airliner is sitting in a hangar somewhere in remote China, someone is eventually going to see it there and say something. Just my opinion of course, but a crash into the ocean that simply hasn't been found yet is many orders of magnitude more likely than a government using a plot that might even be a bit too far out there for Hollywood action movies in order to steal the plane for reverse engineering. We will see! However it turns out, I hope for a resolution soon so that the families of the missing passengers can move forward and get some closure.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:46:18 and read 51311 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 137):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 128):
No I mean ACARS,

From KIAS's post 40 in the previous part:

"Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 8): you just pull the CB's for the VHF, HF, and SATCOM which I believe are located in the cockpit you've in effect disabled the ACARS.

No. The circuit breakers are located in the E/E bay."

Ah thx. But that's my point. To disable ACARS you have to pull either the ACARS box/CB, or the SATCOM CB.

Quoting captainx (Reply 136):
One pilot could not both fly the plane and go pull the ACARS breaker which is below-deck, below the gally (and not easy to quickly get to) per a 777 pilot just on CNN. Were both involved? I'm guessing they did indeed land it somewhere, because had they wanted to crash they would have done it right away.

This pilot seems to be thinking in terms of "legal operations." Once you've decided to throw all that out of the window, a lone pilot could set the autopilot and then leave the cockpit to run his errand.

Quoting hivue (Reply 144):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 128):
"You seem to be out of fuel. Would you like to place a fuel order now? Have your credit card ready."

No. If the engines are fuel starved I'm assuming that ACARS/EHM would phone home with that info.

I was making a joke obviously. Like when a printer says it is almost out of ink and offers to take you to the Canon ordering page online.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:47:49]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Western727
Posted 2014-03-13 17:46:52 and read 51341 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
It isn't about being state of the art and secret. It is about having the time to disemsemable it and re-engineer it. It takes decades.

I agree with you that it takes decades...which is why "covertly stealing" a 772ER of 15 year-old tech and creating an international incident makes no sense...when there are 787s out there that are much more cutting-edge. Why give yourself a 15-year handicap?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 17:47:05 and read 51230 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 146):
But to stop SATCOM from pinging you would need to pull the breaker, right?

Cutting power to the system would do it for sure.

It didn't stop pinging though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ranold76
Posted 2014-03-13 17:47:09 and read 51566 times.

Hello A.net,
I've been a lurker for many years, but this event and the discussion on here about it, influenced me in signing up.
I don't have have a theory on the cause/result of this event, as there are few known facts.
That said, if a nefarious person(s) were at the helm of this aircraft, be it the pilots or a passenger(s), going out of their way to destroy themselves and all on board..... why would you go through all this, turning off the Xders, disabling a variety of systems to slowly cruise out into the Indian Ocean and only killing those on board? Wouldn't a fast, steep descent right after the Vietnam handoff do the job? Also, why wouldn't targeting others on the ground be an objective etc?
Lastly, aren't many of the sensors involving Xders, TCAS and other radio/nav systems up near the nose cone? Could they have collided with something, taking out said systems and subsequently be dealing with a decompression and fire issue?
The possibilities and scenarios are truly numerous.
The discussion has been great and we'll likely only know all the facts when they find the boxes etc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2014-03-13 17:48:31 and read 51223 times.

The more I read, the more likely it seems that this was a deliberate act. Whether it was an elaborate suicide by one of the pilots (with an effort to hide the evidence by misdirecting recovery efforts) or some sort of terrorist plot (steal an aircraft for nefarious purposes), it seems increasingly likely that (a) it did not suffer a catastrophic event and crash in the Gulf of Thailand and (b) the transponder was deliberately switched off.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 135):

Exactly. Somebody must know the amount of fuel on board, but no one is saying. If more than a typical fuel load for PEK, it could have made it to Iran, Somalia, etc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:49:11 and read 51169 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 141):
There is nothing on a 777 that does not exist on other aircraft, including Chinese-designed aircraft like those of Comac.

So you're saying that a Comac is equal to a 777. I disagree.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 141):
This is a 15-year old design for a long-haul airliner. The technology on it is advanced but not at all secret.

I am not saying it is more advanced than anything from Boeing or Airbus. I am saying that is more advanced than something from China. And it isn't like Chinese espionage, reverse engineering and patent theft isn't a problem there. Or that they actually have a history of trying this with the F117.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 142):
Buy one. They sell them, you know.

You're China. You buy an aircraft, that is registered, that the US government knows about. Then the US government never sees this plane again, ever. You don't think it would raise some eyebrows and questions. I still think the secret hijacking that "crashed in the ocean" sounds less likely that it would raise questions.

I am pretty sure I will admit I am wrong on all this when the facts come in. But right now, it actually sounds most plausible to me based on what we know about the chain of events.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 17:49:43 and read 51168 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
I'll say it again because people seem to not read my response to that, they can't do that if they don't want to raise any questions.

Why? Who would be suspicious about the Chinese government buying a 777? They have an air force! They already own Canadian and American aircraft!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:50:15 and read 50870 times.

Quoting ranold76 (Reply 152):
Lastly, aren't many of the sensors involving Xders, TCAS and other radio/nav systems up near the nose cone? Could they have collided with something, taking out said systems and subsequently be dealing with a decompression and fire issue?

On your typical airliner the weather radar is inside the actual nose cone and the pitot-static sensors (speed, altitude) plus the stall sensors sort of surround the bottom half of the nose area, but most antennas are further back. My guess is this is to avoid interference with instrumentation at the pointy end.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:54:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:50:55 and read 50834 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 151):
It didn't stop pinging though.

That's precisely my point. ACARS may have been cut off but SATCOM was not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: MSY-MSP
Posted 2014-03-13 17:51:35 and read 50996 times.

I for one think the Socotra idea is a very interesting one. Based on the socalgeo posted, it fits with a lot of the information that is out there. If we go with the theory that this was a intentional act.

First of all, it is in Yemen. Not exactly one of the best countries in the world to go to. and know to be friendly to less than desirables.

Second it is very remote with very few folks there.

Third the runway is on the east side of the island and over 10000 feet long

Fourth it is at the 5 hour mark or approximately 6-7 hours into the total flight. about when the flight would have been expected in PEK.

It is entirely conceivable that this is where the aircraft is. It would also explain FL295, the lack of any communications from any passengers (bad guys take out or control the towers on the island) and also the 4+ hours that apparently the satcom system was conducting system ready pings.

If the IFE/moving map was turned off, the pax would be none the wiser until the plane landed. Landing would have been a night either way or close to it.

And this fits Occums razor perfectly requires only one real assumption (intentional act by crew or hijacker)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:53:02 and read 50674 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 153):
Exactly. Somebody must know the amount of fuel on board, but no one is saying. If more than a typical fuel load for PEK, it could have made it to Iran, Somalia, etc.

I will freely admit that my crazy Chinese espionage theory would completely change if I knew they had enough fuel to make it to Iran via a roundabout method.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 150):
I agree with you that it takes decades...which is why "covertly stealing" a 772ER of 15 year-old tech and creating an international incident makes no sense...when there are 787s out there that are much more cutting-edge. Why give yourself a 15-year handicap?

I'll give you that, but maybe they couldn't recruit a pilot for the 787 (it's a smaller pool)? Maybe this plan has been in place for years before the 787 was a concept? It isn't like a 772 is an ancient aircraft. It is arguably the third most advanced plane model in the world behind the 787 and A380. And one with a proven track record (which the 787 doesn't have). Or maybe the Carbon Fiber leap is too much for them? I don't know. But just because it isn't a 787 or A380 and it is a 772, doesn't negate my theory to me at the moment.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:54:37 and read 50252 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 149):
Ah thx. But that's my point. To disable ACARS you have to pull either the ACARS box/CB, or the SATCOM CB.

But see this from post 139 above:

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 139):
On PPRuNe a 777 pilot mentioned that you can simply turn on/off various ACARS broadcasting modes (VHF/HF/SATCOM) from the computer right there in the cockpit

But you need to pull the CB in the EE bay to stop SATCOM from pinging.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 17:54:41 and read 50305 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 157):
That's precisely my point. ACARS may have been cut off but SATCOM was not.

I see what you are saying. Disabling the transmission of ACARS over SATCOM from the flight computer, I assume, would not power down the actual SATCOM hardware, meaning it would still be sending keep-alive packets to the satellites.

Sort of like, you can disable 'data while roaming' on your phone, and it won't work if you're roaming, but your phone still connects to a data-capable network and the radio is able to send data. You get what I mean?

So he wouldn't necessarily have to go down to the bay and pull the breaker, if indeed what that 777 pilot said is true and you can just disable transmission modes in the computer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 17:55:00 and read 50392 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 155):
Why? Who would be suspicious about the Chinese government buying a 777? They have an air force! They already own Canadian and American aircraft!

You're not putting both events together. Chinese government buying a 777 isn't suspicious. Not in the least. The Chinese government buying a 777 that is never seen ever again, that is the point of suspicion.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:55:54 and read 50267 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 161):
So he wouldn't necessarily have to go down to the bay and pull the breaker,

He might have wanted to... or else didn't know about SATCOM staying alive.

[Edited 2014-03-13 17:56:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 17:57:41 and read 50164 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 160):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 139):
On PPRuNe a 777 pilot mentioned that you can simply turn on/off various ACARS broadcasting modes (VHF/HF/SATCOM) from the computer right there in the cockpit

But you need to pull the CB in the EE bay to stop SATCOM from pinging.

Yes but you also said:

Quoting hivue (Reply 19):
Plus it has been mentioned earlier that the CBs for SATCOM are not on the flight deck but in the EE bay.

I'd love to hear a 777 pilot we "know" mention it here. I don't put a lot of faith in CNN pr PPRune.

In any case, it doesn't materially change anything. Bottom line is that it is not very difficult to disable ACARS, even if you have to crawl into the EE bay.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 17:59:15 and read 49824 times.

Quoting teo747 (Reply 116):
But surely there are multiple entities looking at this data - we've already seen satellite data provided by the US (Tomnod) and China (suspected debris photos), so it seems pretty implausible that everyone who could find this plane would be in on it and hiding something. We will see...but I am 99.9999% confident that this plane is at the bottom of the ocean - we just don't know where yet.

I would not be surprised should it be discovered at the bottom of the ocean... But I also would not be surprised if it is found intact at some kind of makeshift airfield... I have see other posts referencing to landing in remote China. If it crashed there, the Chinese could have easily cleaned it up and covered the tracks. You also have to look t who has the control over any information, satellite data, and radar. The original source of the info, Malaysia, and China, and Vietnam could have skewed the original data prior to releasing it to other entities.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 147):
I would suspect they would at least want to fly for long enough (30 mins+) for the CVR to write over itself to get rid of any verbal evidence. Or, if they were really on a mission, they would have just aimed it at a point that would take it to the most remote area possible so it would be hard to find and it the FDRs were ever recovered they would just show a gradual decent rather than full forward pressure on the yoke by the PF...

I could be wrong, but I believe that since the CVR has been upgraded to solid-state recording, that it can keep hours of info. Anyone have more information on the amount of recording time the CVR has?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 18:00:47 and read 49457 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
I'll say it again because people seem to not read my response to that, they can't do that if they don't want to raise any questions.

There are easier ways to achieve this than taking a mid-flight commercial airliner carrying 230 souls. I don't rule out espionage, but I think the plane isn't the target.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: redflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 18:02:24 and read 49192 times.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 22):
- Suicide I think is highly unlikely. Why fly for another 4 hours to commit suicide? Why turn off the transponder?

Suicides don't always happen spontaneously at the point of starting the act. Some people have doubts and debate it in their minds while standing on a ledge or holding a gun to their head before finally committing the act. Capt. Craig Button, USAF, is one "suicide" that comes to mind where he essentially hijacked an A10 Warthog and flew it until he ran out of gas and crashed into a Colorado mountain peak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_D._Button

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 119):
This actually leads us sideways to an interesting point: If the plane is never found, who leads the investigation? The country above where it disappeared?

My guess, a wild one at that, would be that the country the airplane is flagged under, which in this case just happens to be the country below where it disappeared.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 18:03:00 and read 49168 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 164):
Bottom line is that it is not very difficult to disable ACARS, even if you have to crawl into the EE bay.

Crawling into the EE bay would be difficult if you're also trying to fly a 777 and not be noticed. So you can shut off the transponder and ACARS (and VHF and UHF) from the flight deck but not SATCOM.

[Edited 2014-03-13 18:03:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-13 18:04:36 and read 48874 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 143):
It isn't about being state of the art and secret. It is about having the time to disemsemable it and re-engineer it. It takes decades.

If China wants to reverse engineer a 777 component, they just need to bid on that component, convince Boeing they can manufacture it, get the contract, keep producing bad parts, China will have detailed drawings in no time.

Sounds like fiction. China used similar technique to get Space Launch Vehicle technology. Read about Loral Space scandal during Bill Clinton period.

There is no need to vanish a 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 18:05:26 and read 48793 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 163):
He might have wanted to... or else didn't know about SATCOM staying alive.

I doubt he would, assuming we are talking about a career pilot. That's a kind of low-level networking detail that would have zero impact on operating the plane. I know what handshakes and keep-alive packets are because I sometimes work with networking professionally, but I don't know why a pilot would assume such low-level details about the satellite link. I personally was surprised to hear they use such a system of continuous contact, to me it seems that would waste precious bandwidth, connecting on-demand would work just as well, but then you would not know ahead of time that the sat indeed has space for your transmission, you are "reserving a spot" I suppose, so it makes sense for aviation. It's the kind of really low level detail that I wouldn't expect pilots to know, although all will now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 18:06:06 and read 48717 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 162):
You're not putting both events together. Chinese government buying a 777 isn't suspicious. Not in the least. The Chinese government buying a 777 that is never seen ever again, that is the point of suspicion.

Didn't the VIP 767 the CIA bugged never get used or seen much since?
They assembled the MD80, they are building the A320, they will probably be outfitting the A330, They are making significant chunks of numerous western modern planes/choppers, many designed since the 777 was built. Every western engine/avionics/component manufacturer are tripping over themselves to help COMAC design and make two Chinese indigenous designs and they want to steal a 777 to reverse engineer it?????
Heck, when the 777X line starts up I wouldn't be surprised if B doesn't sell them the licence to build a "classic" 777! If they were dumb enough to want it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2014-03-13 18:06:09 and read 49286 times.

Quoting OTF (Reply 102):
Quoting questions (Reply 99):
Has any source indicated the estimated maximum flying time based on the amount of fuel the aircraft had?

I think it was mentioned they had enough fuel to fly to PEK plus another 2 hours flying time.

A live CNN report just said a senior U.S. defence department official at the Pentagon stated a few minutes ago he believes it's highly probable the aircraft is at the bottom of the Indian Ocean.

[Edited 2014-03-13 18:07:19]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 18:07:46 and read 48620 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 165):
I could be wrong, but I believe that since the CVR has been upgraded to solid-state recording, that it can keep hours of info. Anyone have more information on the amount of recording time the CVR has?

I believe the minimum legal requirement is 30 minutes. I looked up some previous NTSB reports on aircraft of a similar vintage/sophistication and a lot of them say 30 minutes was recorded. I should have looked at the Asiana report, but they might not mention it since 30 minutes is probably longer than the accident sequence. Anyhow, the FDR captures like, 50 hours or more.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-13 18:07:51 and read 48605 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 159):

Honestly, with all due respect, your wild suspicions of China and Iran suggest paranoia rather than any rational conclusion.

Apologies if I've buggered up quoting, noob here.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-13 18:09:27 and read 48224 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 125):
Scroll up. Text search previous posts.

You mind pointing me to it? I don't see anything about the new article that was published in the WSJ after 7 PM EDT. "Jetliner 'Pinged' Satellites With Location, Altitude for Hours After Disappearance" This is not the same article published earlier in the day.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 18:09:29 and read 48271 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 168):
Crawling into the EE bay would be difficult if you're also trying to fly a 777 and not be noticed.

Meh. Autopilot. They were at cruise.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-13 18:09:53 and read 48600 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 172):
A live CNN report just said a senior U.S. official interviewed a few minutes ago believes it's highly probable the aircraft is at the bottom of the Indian Ocean.

Highly probable? Big words... It is possible though...

If it did crash near its last known location and sank pretty much intact, I would assume that the ships searching in that area are using sonar or whatever powers they have to scan the sea floor? Or, would they just be looking for floating debris?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: combatshadow
Posted 2014-03-13 18:11:14 and read 48259 times.

Civil Air Patrol will now be adding expertise in the search with their Radar Analysis Team.

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/today...an_airliner&show=news&newsID=18283

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: phantomx18
Posted 2014-03-13 18:11:52 and read 48306 times.

Do we have ANY information on the 20 passengers employed by the technology company? What specific jobs they were assigned to? Anything secret/classified? And what about the rest of the passengers, any info on who they were, what they did, etc.

Also, and I know this is far fetched. . .but we hear all the time about "sleeper" cells when it comes to terrorism. What if this co-pilot, who started work in 2007, had been groomed for something like this, and just recently "activated" for this mission. This of course is Hollywood movie conjecture, but right now, there isn't much to go on other than speculation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 18:12:50 and read 48122 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 176):
Meh. Autopilot. They were at cruise.

Flying back across the Malay peninsula trying not to be noticed?

For the record, I think this airplane is sitting on the bottom of the Gulf of Thailand not far from where it disappeared. But if that's not the case then I don't think it flew an hour or 2 hours or 4 hours to the west with everyone on board disabled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-13 18:13:06 and read 47988 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 136):
No. The circuit breakers are located in the E/E bay."

Only the SATCOM, VHF/HF are in the cockpit.

http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/aft/break-l.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 18:14:04 and read 47735 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 166):
There are easier ways to achieve this than taking a mid-flight commercial airliner carrying 230 souls. I don't rule out espionage, but I think the plane isn't the target.

If espionage was not the goal, then maybe the plane was just a tool, to be used at a later time? Perhaps explains why no one has claimed responsibility for a terrorist act, maybe the "real" act hasn't happened yet and the plane is sitting on the ground somewhere, waiting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2014-03-13 18:16:07 and read 47466 times.

Well, China (COMAC) does appear to be reverse-engineering an ancient Douglas DC-9 for their ARJ21. And we can see how well that is going. So maybe there is something to the theory of stealing an 11-year old 777 for a similar purpose. A pirated copy of the 777 could reek all kinds of commercial havoc when it reaches the marketplace in say, 25 years from now.

Sorry, but I just can't buy into this story.

I don't have any other theories. The only thing I can see about a pilot suicide scenario at this point would be trying to hide any and all evidence of that (by flying it somewhere well off course before plunging into the sea) so that the family can collect on "accident" insurance. It would have been easier just to "accidentally" trip in front of a bus on the streets of Kuala Lumpur.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 18:17:50 and read 48081 times.

Now THIS looks like a plane..... From Tomnod

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Indy
Posted 2014-03-13 18:18:22 and read 47178 times.

What if this was a hijacking and the plane got shot down? Maybe the responsible government doesn't want to admit that it just killed over 200 people. Or worse they shot down a plane that was suffering electronics problems and wasn't actually hijacked. A mistake like that would result in a lack of cooperation. Some will think it is far fetched. But is it really? Is it really more far fetched than anything else? The plane is still missing and nobody seems to know why and the plane isn't where it was supposed to be. Something obviously was abnormal about the whole thing. A hijacking or mistaken hijacking followed by the plane being shot down is as likely as any other scenario at this point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 18:18:31 and read 47214 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 180):
Flying back across the Malay peninsula trying not to be noticed?

Yeah? The last primary radar contact of the UFO was at FL295. Just changed the heading and altitude and cruised.

Consider this sequence of events:
1. ACARS makes last transmission
2. He uses the computer in the cockpit to disable all 3 ACARS downlinks
3. He talks to ATC for the handoff
4. He turns off his transponder
5. ??????

Or this one:
1. ACARS makes last transmission
2. He talks to ATC for the handoff
3. He turns off his transponder
4. He sets the autopilot to turn around and descend (if MH370 was the UFO)
5. He goes into the EE bay and pulls the ACARS breaker
6. ??????

Both are plausible, and assuming he doesn't know or doesn't care that SATCOM hardware being powered will reveal that he 'exists', describe what we know.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2014-03-13 18:18:49 and read 47677 times.

Latest from BBC: "In an echo of claims made in the Wall Street Journal earlier on Thursday that the plane transmitted engine data for hours after the plane disappeared, US officials briefed on the search told Associated Press that Boeing systems on the plane also sent signals to a satellite for four hours after the aircraft went missing. The Boeing 777-200 was not transmitting data to the satellite, but was instead sending out a signal to establish contact, said the official, who was not named. If true, it could suggest the aircraft was still flying. Boeing offers a satellite service that can receive a stream of data during flight on how the aircraft is functioning. Malaysia Airlines did not subscribe to that service, but the plane was still automatically sending pings to the satellite, the official said."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-13 18:19:06 and read 47210 times.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 179):
Also, and I know this is far fetched. . .but we hear all the time about "sleeper" cells when it comes to terrorism. What if this co-pilot, who started work in 2007, had been groomed for something like this, and just recently "activated" for this mission. This of course is Hollywood movie conjecture, but right now, there isn't much to go on other than speculation.

I thought the same and it is not too far fetched. How many commercial aircraft and pilots are out there? A lot! It would only take one rogue person to pull this off. It is very possible...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 18:19:09 and read 47263 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 184):
Now THIS looks like a plane..... From Tomnod

An old plane... Not the straight wing, all modern jets have a swept-wing design.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-13 18:20:24 and read 46854 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 183):
Well, China (COMAC) does appear to be reverse-engineering an ancient Douglas DC-9 for their ARJ21.

Why do they need to do that, when they have the tooling?

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 189):
An old plane... Not the straight wing, all modern jets have a swept-wing design.

Or a C-130 in flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 18:21:16 and read 46914 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 181):
Only the SATCOM, VHF/HF are in the cockpit.

You'll have to point out the SATCOM breaker to me (I think I may need to stop staring at a computer screen for a while.  )

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 18:22:53 and read 46480 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 186):
Both are plausible, and assuming he doesn't know or doesn't care that SATCOM hardware being powered will reveal that he 'exists', describe what we know.

I agree. We're on the same page after all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 18:22:55 and read 46588 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 190):
Or a C-130 in flight.

Like I said.. OLD haha the C-130 is not a new design. But I did not think of a C-130 perhaps looking for the doomed aircraft as a possibility.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-13 18:24:17 and read 46221 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 187):
systems on the plane also sent signals to a satellite for four hours after the aircraft went missing.

Yes. The Aircraft Health Monitoring system.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-13 18:25:58 and read 46255 times.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 174):
Honestly, with all due respect, your wild suspicions of China and Iran suggest paranoia rather than any rational conclusion.

I am really not a paranoid person. I just recognize that espionage, both state and corporate, is a real thing in this world, and at this time, those with the means and potential desire to pull something like this off is Iran and China.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 174):
Apologies if I've buggered up quoting, noob here.

Welcome. Quoting can be tricky sometimes. And it doesn't work quite right from mobile platforms.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-13 18:26:05 and read 45977 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 184):

yep looks like an early C-130 Herc, defo not a B772

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-13 18:29:04 and read 45711 times.

Re ACARS being shut off first....

Quoting liquidair (Reply 60):
but... The acars... Shut down before the captain signed off from the ATC
Quoting flyenthu (Reply 68):

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 59):

I literally copied this right off the TV screen. This was on CNN, and they were citing ABC. I left out the text within paren.
Quoting liquidair (Reply 60):
but... The acars... Shut down before the captain signed off from the ATC?
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 98):
So we have a development here - that ACARS and the transponder quitted at different times.

I understand the CNN reported that "ACARS was shut off before the transponder"
That is incorrect - the last transmission from ACARS was significantly before the transponder quit - but ACARS on this ship only sends data periodically (per Rolls Royce). Another ACARS transmission would not have been expected for some time. ACARS is not constantly transmitting like the transponder.

I might suggest you review

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):
New Sanity Check
Quoting ukair (Reply 61):
the daily mail is reporting that the FAA issued a warning about a flaw in some 777's to quote
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 98):

Thank you, rcair1, for updating your already excellent summary!  

You are welcome!

Re: Airworthiness Directive.
Does not apply to this ship.
Again covered in

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):
New Sanity Check

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 18:31:58 and read 45342 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 168):
Crawling into the EE bay would be difficult if you're also trying to fly a 777 and not be noticed. So you can shut off the transponder and ACARS (and VHF and UHF) from the flight deck but not SATCOM.

That sounds like what happened, then. SATCOM was obviously still powered and running, but ACARS and the transponder were offline. That would be the perfect explanation for this scenario, at least in the unfolding stages of the situation as it developed onboard. Not knowing to - or not being able to - go down to the EE bay and totally disable the SATCOM to stop pings, to me, sounds like a single person or tiny group of people that took over the craft, but didn't quite have the knowledge (or manpower) to be 100% 'clean.'

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 18:32:10 and read 44950 times.

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 196):
yep looks like an early C-130 Herc, defo not a B772

Heh, that could be a SAR aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 18:35:00 and read 44767 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 198):
That sounds like what happened, then. SATCOM was obviously still powered and running, but ACARS and the transponder were offline. That would be the perfect explanation for this scenario, at least in the unfolding stages of the situation as it developed onboard. Not knowing to - or not being able to - go down to the EE bay and totally disable the SATCOM to stop pings, to me, sounds like a single person or tiny group of people that took over the craft, but didn't quite have the knowledge (or manpower) to be 100% 'clean.'

But the question is... Did they WANT to be "clean"? As we can all see, by remaining a little visible, it has basically changed the search area into in impossible to search radius. Just the right cover if you wanted to remain undiscovered...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 18:35:06 and read 44634 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 190):
Or a C-130 in flight.

SAR Aircraft probably.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-13 18:38:10 and read 44284 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 195):

I can't see it myself. They've got essentially nothing to gain, and a lot to lose.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-13 18:38:37 and read 44331 times.

Or somebody just solved the mystery of Amelia Earhart!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Leeloo
Posted 2014-03-13 18:40:29 and read 44306 times.

Good Evening,

Since everybody is speculating wildly here.. this is my offer.

The plane has just reached cruise altitude approx 40 min into the flight. Things are getting quiet, FMC is flying the plane comfortably and so on.. this stage of the flight would be the first occasion in a while the pilots, one of them, can stretch the legs, go to the jar, etc... one of them leaves the cockpit and... from there on a question.

Either the remaining pilot takes his own initiative according to an unknown agenda and hijacks the plane and does what ever his intention was, like for example flying it out in the Indian Ocean committing suicide etc..

Alternatively there is a cockpit intrusion at this stage by external hijackers.

Mechanical problems causing anything like this is in my opinion very unlikely. Transponders, communications etc can always be manipulated or disabled with the right knowledge..

[Edited 2014-03-13 18:44:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-13 18:42:00 and read 44063 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 131):
I said it before, I'll say it again. Reverse engineering. And before the other responses get brought up: 1) yes they have access to China Southern's, but that is too obvious because sooner or later someone would ask questions.

Get Real.

Even buying into the 'too obvious' pretest (which I don't), why can't they just stage a fake hangar fire and be done with it? Instead no, they need to pull up THIS stunt, maybe for the thrill of it... Unbelievable...And frankly disrespectful to the victims.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: osloflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 18:42:57 and read 43750 times.

Wonder if somebody wanted to be a modern day DB Cooper figure shrouded in mystery.
If the this was a Pilot/Copilot murder suicide. I think it would be on heading mode in the direction with the best average tailwinds using high altitude long range cruise speeds.
Going off airway at for example FL445 to stay away from other conflicting traffic, then I think this could go much farther than previously expected.
The other thing that comes to mind unrelated was this case from a few years ago.
http://911review.org/Media/Boeing_suit_bomb.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-13 18:45:53 and read 43494 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 9):
Question (for Mandala499) - are SATCOM pings transmissible through water (for example if the aircraft was submerged in shallow water)?

For Inmarsat Aero H+ or Swift64 or SwiftBroadband, estimates range from 60cm max depth to 2m depth depending on antenna type has been claimed, however 30cm depth is about the max I've heard from people who tested these stuff directly for the standard antenna being waterproofed. The speeds you get would be utterly dismal and make sending anything a torture.
(I actually raised this question to the satcom antenna manufacturer for a submarine requirement of a nation.)

I want to remind everyone that we're talking about a jetliner with over 200 people onboard here, and not a stealth bomber. If this airplane made it to the Indian Ocean, some people in defence of several countries are going to get early retirement. Same if it made it to as some say, North Korea (which I think is ridiculous!)...

With some in the US government now saying thanks to the SatCom "ready" signals, they are themselves asking others to join the search all the way to the Indian Ocean, really does show that they too don't know where it is. Enough with the Clancy and Fleming style tech fiction. If the SatCom use the Inmarsat global beam (some old aero services still do), then it can be anywhere from west of India to just east of Hawaii. If the satcom used the regional beam for the service, that same area would be divided into 19 regional beams. Inmarsat would know which regional beam it was using in no time. If it used the spot beam (unlikely), the Inmarsat spot beam is only 200-400km wide.. and again, it would take no time to determine. This so called "amazing satcom find" is bound to have it's critics from the satcom community too! Unfortunately for the WSJ bloggerjourno who keep going on about it, one of the critics is me, who once lectured him about satcom at an airshow when he made some silly comment about it. Let's see how this pans out!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: AustinALlison
Posted 2014-03-13 18:48:37 and read 43025 times.

One of the most concerning aspects of this deal now is that a majority of the world's intelligence agencies (US and world alike) are now working on this case simply because we do not know what is going on here (terrorism, accident, etc). I just hope this whole thing is not a diversion for something bigger. Something that would only be possible if the world was focused on something else, allowing this bigger deal to slip by relatively unnoticed.

Speculation, I know, but just a concern of mine.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2014-03-13 18:49:22 and read 42847 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 183):
Well, China (COMAC) does appear to be reverse-engineering an ancient Douglas DC-9 for their ARJ21.

Not at all. They are reusing some fuselage tooling which they used to produce MD-80s decades ago. And then they mate it to a new wing made by Antonov in Ukraine, new GE engines, FBW system from Honeywell, avionics from Rockwell Collins, and various other systems from more than a dozen US and European companies.

The ARJ21 is a true international project just like for example the Boeing 787.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: phantomx18
Posted 2014-03-13 18:50:52 and read 42636 times.

Quoting Leeloo (Reply 204):

I have put a lot of thought into this scenario and have come up with two things regarding this:


1. If one pilot locked another out of the cockpit while going to the bathroom, etc. And he did not immediately crash the plane, but rather flew for 4 hours as is being said, then I do believe that the pilot who was locked out would have mobilized the passengers on that plane and gotten through that cockpit door to regain control at some point. Maybe the hijacking pilot intended to take the plane and land somewhere, but had to instead nose dive and crash the plane because the passengers finally breached the door. Although I would imagine 230 motivated passengers could have breached that cockpit door much much faster than 4 hours.

2. I think we can discount the external hijacker theory. . .simply for the reason that I don't believe anyone would have gotten through that cockpit door in a quick enough fashion that absolutely no mayday was sent. The only scenario where this would be possibly would be if explosives were used to breach the cockpit door, instantly rendering both pilots dead or unconscious, which I think would be a big enough explosion to cause major damage inside the cockpit.

3. I think the most likely scenario is one where one pilot pretends to get up to go use the bathroom, and incapacitates the other pilot in his seat (hitting him on the head with something, strangling him, etc.) All within the confines of the cockpit, thereby not alerting anyone else on the plane about the danger they were in. And not risking any heroism from the passengers/crew.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: samguan
Posted 2014-03-13 18:50:59 and read 42687 times.

I read almost every posts but would this be possible at all:

1. Airplane took off
2. Government was notified of a terrorist hijack
3. Military sent jet and shot it down
4. Sent ship and cleaned everything up.

It seems like everyone is questioning the credibility of the Malaysian government, seems like they might try to cover something up.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-13 18:52:42 and read 42298 times.

If this thing was flying around for several hours, most of which it was "off-scope" (officially), then the question becomes -- why did Malaysia not notice something amiss earlier and do something about it? With the way people are conditioned in the US after 9/11, there would have been a fighter escort within minutes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-13 18:52:46 and read 42349 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 200):
But the question is... Did they WANT to be "clean"? As we can all see, by remaining a little visible, it has basically changed the search area into in impossible to search radius. Just the right cover if you wanted to remain undiscovered...

This seems like a well planned hijacking, but some details such as the SATCOM poor access from the Flight Deck can be overlooked.

I say it is well planned because of the time history of events.
1) The transponder goes off as the aircraft was being handed over form Malysia to Vietnam Control. Perfect opportunity to buy time,
2) VHF Data Link stopped reporting as the transponder went off. So that was turned off too.
3) Military primary radar picked up what seems very likely the 777 for an additional 1hr 20 minutes as it was pegged 500 kilometers West of the last ADS-B report
4) Now there is evidence that the AHM system was trying to establish Satellite communication for at least 4 more hours
5) It is now 6 and a half days since this plane disappeared. That's unprecedented. If it crashed land or sea, something would have surfaced by now.
6) It is in the interest of MAS, the airport, and the government to downplay hijacking as regardless if the airplane is found or not, it would be immediate open season for law suits due to the breach of security.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-13 18:52:58 and read 42436 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 135):
Can't believe why the exact fuel figure has not yet been made public. That would at least give MAS and the SAR / authorities a maximum radius to consider.
Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 153):
Exactly. Somebody must know the amount of fuel on board, but no one is saying. If more than a typical fuel load for PEK, it could have made it to Iran, Somalia, etc.

Live:Map-http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934


Apologies for the repeat of a post earlier in this page, but I tried to take this into account when I ran the buffers on this map.

The largest yellow circle is a 3500 mile buffer on the last point of contact, I chose 3500 miles because I figured that that would be the absolute max range for a 2700 mile trip from KUL-PEK. Its probably too much, but I havent heard any specifcs...Regardless, I'm pretty sure that the SAR teams are using similar tools, and they have the info they need to do a better calculation...
Each of the smaller rings represents hours of flying time at 500 mile per hour from the last point of contact.
It is interesting that the 4 hour mark (2000 miles) is right over the Maldives, at one point along the circle. You can use the live map to explore it yourself if you would like...

SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 18:53:03 and read 42200 times.

Quoting AustinALlison (Reply 208):
One of the most concerning aspects of this deal now is that a majority of the world's intelligence agencies (US and world alike) are now working on this case simply because we do not know what is going on here (terrorism, accident, etc). I just hope this whole thing is not a diversion for something bigger. Something that would only be possible if the world was focused on something else, allowing this bigger deal to slip by relatively unnoticed.

Speculation, I know, but just a concern of mine.

Valid concern... But unlikely as it would require extreme planning on any single group.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-13 18:53:26 and read 42247 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 193):
But I did not think of a C-130 perhaps looking for the doomed aircraft as a possibility.

Thailand and Malaysia have C-130H models, Singapore has C-130H and KC-130B / H models, Indonesia has a few C-130B and more C-130H and H-30 models.

There should be around 25 C-130s from those nations flying search patterns.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2014-03-13 18:55:41 and read 42055 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 195):
I am really not a paranoid person. I just recognize that espionage, both state and corporate, is a real thing in this world, and at this time, those with the means and potential desire to pull something like this off is Iran and China.

Oh please. You're just wasting our time and bandwidth. 1. China is a super power for god's sake, they can make the axis the world spins on change with a single phone call, they have no interest in crapping around with small fry like hijacking the plane of an allied and well-loved country, especially one where the majority of pax are Chinese citizens! 2. And Iran? Seriously? Malaysia is their best friend in the world, virtually the only country in the world that allows Iranian citizens to visit without a visa (other than Syria, oh goodie, and possibly Turkey). Needless to add that another of Iran's few friends in the world is - ta da - China.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-13 18:56:34 and read 41623 times.

It seems so bizarre to have to say that the simplest explanation is the most likely one, but...there isn't one.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2014-03-13 18:57:02 and read 41600 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 209):
Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 183):
Well, China (COMAC) does appear to be reverse-engineering an ancient Douglas DC-9 for their ARJ21.

Not at all. They are reusing some fuselage tooling which they used to produce MD-80s decades ago. And then they mate it to a new wing made by Antonov in Ukraine, new GE engines, FBW system from Honeywell, avionics from Rockwell Collins, and various other systems from more than a dozen US and European companies.

The ARJ21 is a true international project just like for example the Boeing 787.

Sorry folks .... I was being sarcastic. But your response confirms that nobody would need to steal a 777 to figure out how to build an airplane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-13 18:57:07 and read 41628 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 52):

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 45):

1:07AM : Data reporting system shuts down
1:21 AM: Transponder shuts down

ABC News Report

This can be totally normal, and no indication of a problem at all.

ACARS does not open a connection all the time, it only opens a connection when it needs to send or receive data. Probably the last ACARS message was the engine cruise report that is transmitted after top of climb. Someone on FR should be able to see if 1:07 was not long after top of climb.

The termination of radar data can simply be the aircraft was over the horizon or beyond radar range. The line of sight distance is about 230 nm at 35000 ft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 18:57:45 and read 41792 times.

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/hq/e...ence/our-fleet/boeing-777-200.html

Says that business class has SAT phones?

Is that actually the case?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 18:59:59 and read 41299 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 212):
If this thing was flying around for several hours, most of which it was "off-scope" (officially), then the question becomes -- why did Malaysia not notice something amiss earlier and do something about it? With the way people are conditioned in the US after 9/11, there would have been a fighter escort within minutes.

Malaysia does not have that many fighter aircraft, less than 50 I believe, unlikely that any of them would actually be ready to go immediately in the middle of the night. It is peacetime, by the time the UFO radar return would make its way anywhere, it would have been off the scope. IMO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 19:01:01 and read 41250 times.

Was doing some Tomnod'ing tonight and found something interesting but I can't figure out how to post an image here. It is on map 126574.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 19:02:14 and read 40775 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 220):
The termination of radar data can simply be the aircraft was over the horizon or beyond radar range. The line of sight distance is about 230 nm at 35000 ft.

No, this route has good radar coverage. They dropped off SSR and ADS-B, other flights in the area don't.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 19:03:04 and read 40818 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 213):
This seems like a well planned hijacking, but some details such as the SATCOM poor access from the Flight Deck can be overlooked.

I say it is well planned because of the time history of events.
1) The transponder goes off as the aircraft was being handed over form Malysia to Vietnam Control. Perfect opportunity to buy time,
2) VHF Data Link stopped reporting as the transponder went off. So that was turned off too.
3) Military primary radar picked up what seems very likely the 777 for an additional 1hr 20 minutes as it was pegged 500 kilometers West of the last ADS-B report
4) Now there is evidence that the AHM system was trying to establish Satellite communication for at least 4 more hours
5) It is now 6 and a half days since this plane disappeared. That's unprecedented. If it crashed land or sea, something would have surfaced by now.
6) It is in the interest of MAS, the airport, and the government to downplay hijacking as regardless if the airplane is found or not, it would be immediate open season for law suits due to the breach of security.

But as you said, if this were a highjacking, it is very complex and well planned. They could have known exactly what they were doing with regard to SATCOM to leave the possibility of the search area expansion. Also, I am aware that they had enough fuel to fly approx. 4 hours past where they last reported, but is there any possibility that they had help from the fuelers to disguise exactly how much fuel was boarded? Could the fuelers have boarded much more fuel than reported? This would give far more range and thus, a larger search area, and a larger possibility of hiding the aircraft.

As to #3, the problem with radar without a transponder is that you cannot identify the aircraft, so it could be another plane.

#6 very true... It would be in the best interest should this be a highjacking, for MAS and the Malaysian government that the aircraft is never found, or ruled a highjacking.

#4 could also be misleading as they (whoever "they" is) could have then disabled the system after that amount of time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-13 19:03:18 and read 40818 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 184):
Now THIS looks like a plane..... From Tomnod

Yes, it somewhat resemble a plane, but in any case a straight winged one, so... And without a scale it is really impossible to say more... Note also that the 'wings' seems to be of different lenghts...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 19:04:06 and read 40932 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 223):
Was doing some Tomnod'ing tonight and found something interesting but I can't figure out how to post an image here. It is on map 126574.

You're all wasting your time on that site. It was proven here earlier that the imaged area is ridiculously small, and area is one that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by the actual SAR efforts. It is a complete waste of time and you are all chasing ghosts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 19:04:50 and read 40742 times.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 210):

Is there any scenario in which the persons in the cockpit can cause the cabin to depressurize without causing the oxygen masks to activate in the cabin?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2014-03-13 19:05:09 and read 40853 times.

Quoting nick33326 (Reply 69):
a very sophisticated kidnapping in which the plane, crew and passengers are being held somewhere for a large ransom, or worse;

At what point are they going to ask for their money or demands then? Surely by now...

Quoting nick33326 (Reply 69):
terrorists have taken this aircraft and plan to use it to deliver a payload of (chemical, biological or nuclear weapons?) to a large city, which could make attacks of 9/11 pale in comparison.

Why go to a lengthy scheme like this which could easily fail? Surely far easier to steal a jet already parked on the ground, or even buy a retired airliner legally.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 70):
I still think that the transponder is the key clue

Yes. Most likely situation has to be there was a routine problem which possibly grew into other problems, the transponder could have even failed totally, maybe other systems too and they did not trust their instruments anymore, became over occupied with the faults and in the darkness over ocean or uninhabited land became spatially disoriented and CFIT - just like AF 332 off Brazil, ET 738 off BEY, EA L1011 Everglades and Im sure many others.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):
* SATCOM Pings: There are (unconfirmed?) reports that the a/c SATCOM continued to send network interrogations (pings) for some hours after the LOS.
* These pings are simply short signals from the a/c to the satellites that are a sort of "I'm here" signal. No data was sent.
* This IS Significant, if it is true because that means the a/c was in flight and that comms were NOT disable.
* However, these pings provide no location, direction or any other kind of info - simply a 'ping' sent to the satellite.
* There is confusion about these pings being primary radar returns - that is not correct - they are communication signals.

Does the aircraft have to be flying, or just engines running for these pings? I remember after the QF 380 incident, firefighters had a real struggle flooding the engines to get them to shut down (the wiring was too damaged to do so from the cockpit). If the aircraft did not crash into the ocean, but over land and maybe pancaked in hard, but not enough to rip of the engines and catch fire, could the engines still be running for several hours?

Flaw in this logic is this sounds at least a partially survivable situation and we would have thought we would have heard from someone by now.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 110):
you need to access the electronics bay behind and under the cockpit

Can you access this bay in flight, or only from the ground via external access panels?

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 138):
If you wanted to get a hold of 777 for a long time (longer than say a D-check), with out raising eyebrows, what would be an easier way? I am asking this in all sincerity.

If they really wanted to do this, they could just "pretend" one landed heavy, or even actually land one heavy and write it off and no one will ever remember it any more. They managed to copy the F22 after all without stealing one.

Quoting Western727 (Reply 150):
Why give yourself a 15-year handicap?

ARJ21 (DC9), Y5 (AN2), Y7 (AN24), Y8 (AN12) - 15 years is progress!! 
Quoting KIAS (Reply 32):
My speculation is that we're looking at an explosive decompression

This theory has been discounted as why would that involve the transponder being turned off at the same time. I suppose its possible to "knock it" grabbing for a mask or during a violent move of the plane or something, but its not exactly "knockable" like an on/off switch, its a dial that needs to be turned. Maybe even pushed in and turned (if anyone can confirm).

I did think of the BA BAC 1-11 incident where the cockpit window blew out due to a wrong shaped bolt being used in a replacement. Not sure of that is even possible on a 777 windshield, but would be ruled out for the same reason as hypoxia IMO and they would drop way more than 3000' to FL295.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 19:05:49 and read 40732 times.

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 226):
And without a scale it is really impossible to say more

As mentioned earlier it's a C-130.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: phantomx18
Posted 2014-03-13 19:07:19 and read 40594 times.

If this was a coordinated hijacking to steal this plane, land it, and use it for some terrorist operation down the road, then we might not see this plane again for years. Many terrorists these days think in windows of years, not days.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 19:08:06 and read 40356 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 225):
As to #3, the problem with radar without a transponder is that you cannot identify the aircraft, so it could be another plane.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to have two large and fast aircraft in the flight levels with a disabled/inop transponder within an hour of each other would be quite improbable, would it not? Who would be flying that high at night without a transponder other than MF370?

I think the investigation authorities are practically sure that UFO was MF370. They just can't prove it with a gap in the radar track (or, who knows, maybe the US or other countries have filled that gap for them by now)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 19:08:55 and read 40355 times.

Does anyone think that the false passport business, which didn't seem to be taken all that seriously, was exploited to hijack the plane?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 19:10:47 and read 40008 times.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 231):
If this was a coordinated hijacking to steal this plane, land it, and use it for some terrorist operation down the road, then we might not see this plane again for years. Many terrorists these days think in windows of years, not days.

I can't imagine that it would still be capable of flight after sitting on the ground for years with practically none of the support/maintenance infrastructure necessary to maintain a plane even when it's not flying.

But if it's stashed somewhere that DOES have this infrastructure, then odds are someone will talk sooner or later.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2014-03-13 19:12:38 and read 39737 times.

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 231):
If this was a coordinated hijacking to steal this plane, land it, and use it for some terrorist operation down the road, then we might not see this plane again for years. Many terrorists these days think in windows of years, not days.

In the last ten years, please name one that even vaguely fits your characterisation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-13 19:13:32 and read 39695 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 229):
Does the aircraft have to be flying, or just engines running for these pings?

Probably neither. The aircraft probably just needs to be powered and the breaker not pulled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 19:13:53 and read 39720 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 229):
At what point are they going to ask for their money or demands then? Surely by now...

They may wait until the governments of the cities are truly desperate and can extract more $$ from them for safe return. Or they could be hiding the plane for a future terror attack.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 229):
Why go to a lengthy scheme like this which could easily fail? Surely far easier to steal a jet already parked on the ground, or even buy a retired airliner legally.

But if you steal a parked plane at an active airport, someone will notice. If you buy one legally, you have to register it, and any immediate illegal use would be watched. If it sat idle for years it would be less noticed, but then may have mechanical issues.

Stealing one inflight, however, you have a flying airplane, with no mechanical problems, and fuel to park it wherever you desire. Also, you have doubt on your side, as no one wants to admit to a highjacking on their watch, so the governments will be betting and hoping for a crash in the ocean, rather than be trying to find a potentially crashed airliner at one of thousands of airports.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 229):
Can you access this bay in flight, or only from the ground via external access panels?

You can, but access is from the passenger cabin, not the flight deck.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: TheGov
Posted 2014-03-13 19:14:58 and read 39396 times.

I must confess that I have not read every single post, so the opinions I am about to state regarding this tragedy may have already been stated. If so, apologies in advance.

First of all, I would bet beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody, somewhere who is monitoring any one of the 3000 + satellites orbiting this planet saw something. But, out of an inane sense of national security for whichever nation's satellite caught what happened, that person or persons is not saying a word. So, everybody is searching everywhere without a particular honed-in area in which to look because we can't let anyone know how much we know and see.

Secondly, if someone manually turned off the transponder, wouldn't it seem logical that they would turn off the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder as well? Lets say, however, that they only turned off the transponder and didn't bother with the FDR and CVR. If I'm not mistaken ( and unless the technology has changed), the CVR only records for a set amount of time before it overwrites. So, if whomever is flying the plane knows this, that would explain the 2+ hours of additional flying time past the original event. Flying out the recording, so to speak. And if that is in fact the case, we may never know what happened in the cockpit even if both the CVR and FDR are recovered.

Finally, for what it is worth, this accident/highjacking will more than likely go down as one of the more memorable events of the 21st century. My prayers to the victims and their families.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-13 19:16:38 and read 39184 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 228):
Is there any scenario in which the persons in the cockpit can cause the cabin to depressurize without causing the oxygen masks to activate in the cabin?

No, but if you're on oxygen in the cockpit, you've got a fairly long supply -- in back you'll run out after a few minutes if you have the oxygen generator system (which most do) -- if you have tanks you'll have a lot longer. The oxygen generator system is just meant to provide oxygen from max altitude to 10,000' during a rapid descent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-13 19:17:24 and read 39122 times.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 225):
they had enough fuel to fly approx. 4 hours past where they last reported, but is there any possibility that they had help from the fuelers to disguise exactly how much fuel was boarded

Maybe they did have help. But it won't be necessary as the 4 to 5 hours of fuel it had is plenty to bring the plane to a hideout.

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 225):
the problem with radar without a transponder is that you cannot identify the aircraft, so it could be another plane.

All they have to do is look at the tapes when the 777 was broadcasting on the secondary radar tapes overlaying with the primary radar tapes and you can be pretty sure after that what plane it is.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 228):
Is there any scenario in which the persons in the cockpit can cause the cabin to depressurize without causing the oxygen masks to activate in the cabin?

No they can not stop the masks from falling. The masks fall automatically or through a cockpit switch and give passenger breathing for about 30 minutes. The pilot DO HAVE CONTROL to depressurize the airplane at any point for as long as they want. Their oxygen system last longer than the passengers.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 222):
Malaysia does not have that many fighter aircraft, less than 50 I believe, unlikely that any of them would actually be ready to go immediately in the middle of the night

Which is exactly why the military had to retract they saw something on primary radar. By saying they did not see anything, they do not have to explain why jets were not scrambled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-13 19:17:34 and read 39178 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 19):

So what is the simplest solution?
1. They never dialed in intentionally. Logic tells you they didn't have a catastrophic failure at the exact moment of transfer between two countries while changing radio frequencies. No debris at that location because the plane isn't there. (I think I have a better chance of winning Mega-Millions forty weeks in a row.)
2. They wanted Malaysia ATC to stop tracking them, and they never asked Vietnam to track them.
3. They disabled all transponder transmission, most likely pulled the fuse. The intent was not to be tracked.
4. They then went wherever the went with a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
5. The reason why the aircraft can't be found is they don't want to be found. Occam's razor.
6. The reason why conflicting information is coming from the military is they know far more than they are saying.

Why would you not want to be found?
7. If you can land and hide an airplane in a third word landing strip you could have a $300,000,000 asset.
8. If I were to want something perhaps it makes more sense to do it through the correct channels not through the media.
9. Suicide fails the razor.
10. Hijack is possible.
11. Theft is possible. (Think somalian theft of ships)
12. Catastrophic failure fails the razor.
13. Military intervention is possible.

I would look at every landing strip within six hours of KUL that could land a B777.
Remember bombers were hidden in WWII from view through on ground camouflage.

Quoting Trin (Reply 21):
If that's your result of your Occam's razor interpretation, then I think we are failing to understand the premise behind Occam's razor. The most *likely* explanation is hikjacking by pirates and landing somewhere secret?

quoting richierich:
Agreed, Trin.
Billreid, the simplest answer is that the plane crashed on its intended course (minimal changes of heading) and the wreckage hasn't been found due to size of floating debris and total incompetance by the search agencies involved. Looking for floating debris of a very small size and quanitity (assuming most of a B777 would sink) is no easy task on something the size of the Gulf of Thailand. That is the simplest answer.

Regarding #7, what do you even mean? What friggin use is a $300M machine if you cannot use it? I'm sorry, 7-12 don't make a lot of sense on the list.

Quoting IADCA:
Why does suicide fail the razor? All that is unexplained in a suicide theory, really, is (1) where the second pilot was during the hypothetical suicide and (2) why didn't the suicidal party want to be found? Otherwise, it rather makes sense, and IMO lot more sense than your scenario.

Trin, Richierich, IADCA:

My logic makes sense.

Suicide: You don't care if they find you if you are committing suicide, so no need to take so much care to disappear from tracking.

Vanish: So why would you want to vanish?
A. Crew is taking the plane somewhere else for other motives.
B. Hijack is occurring with objective to take the plane elsewhere.
Either way flying for four hours after turning devices off doesn't make sense for a middle of the Indian Ocean scenario.
If you don't want to be found it's because you are going somewhere. If you are going to ditch then a four hour flight first doesn't make sense either.

The 14 minute separation between transponder and system tracking shutdown supports my logic. Whomever was flying this bird didn't want those looking for her to know where she was going.
If it was a simple hijacking, then the simple 14 minute split doesn't make sense because the crew wouldn't decide to turn other things off. Therefore whomever shut the devices off new what they were doing.

Assuming everything in the cockpit was 100% functional, then it makes total sense this aircraft did not crash nor is it in the ocean. The pilot will not risk the pax and crew if given a choice. If everything was functional then they were going somewhere else.
The questions is where?

I see no logic in flying to the middle of the Indian Ocean to run out of fuel.
Also the water transmitters did not activate, indicating the aircraft is either under water or on land. What makes more sense? IMHO on land because everything was working when the aircraft was made to disappear.

I remind everyone reading.
The transponder was turned off exactly at the point in time when the aircraft should have been passed from Malaysia ATC to Vietnam ATC. The crew never called into Vietnam ATC, but instead shut down transponders and more.

I am sure the US Gov has put this through a logic tree and the most logical explanation is the crew.
If it were a hijacker how would he know when the ATC transfer were to take place? The crew would try to take subtle steps to let ATC know there was a problem. Maybe not call in, maybe not shut off everything possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 19:18:41 and read 38936 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 232):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to have two large and fast aircraft in the flight levels with a disabled/inop transponder within an hour of each other would be quite improbable, would it not? Who would be flying that high at night without a transponder other than MF370?

I think the investigation authorities are practically sure that UFO was MF370. They just can't prove it with a gap in the radar track (or, who knows, maybe the US or other countries have filled that gap for them by now)

If this was really extensively planned, they could have had another aircraft up there to disguise it. But this is unlikely. It was just a thought.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 234):
I can't imagine that it would still be capable of flight after sitting on the ground for years with practically none of the support/maintenance infrastructure necessary to maintain a plane even when it's not flying.

But if it's stashed somewhere that DOES have this infrastructure, then odds are someone will talk sooner or later.

That largely depends on where that somewhere is...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2014-03-13 19:19:15 and read 39028 times.

For a change of pace from all the theories, from plausible to the tin foil hat type, here is good read about the culture of the Malaysian government and possible reasons for its rather poor handling of the situation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/13/wo...sian-elite.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

"Amid Search for Plane, Malaysian Leaders Face Rare Scrutiny

SEPANG, Malaysia — Malaysia’s governing elite has clung to power without interruption since independence from Britain almost six decades ago through a combination of tight control of information, intimidation of the opposition and, until recently, robust economic growth...."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-13 19:19:27 and read 39006 times.

Long time lurker, first time posting.

I am seeing a lot of posts that make the assumption that if it was a hijacking, it must have been successful... I.e. plane hijacked, then flew to some remote site.

I don't feel that would have happened here, just because I don't see anyone pulling that off realistically without being noticed somewhere. China certainly would have no motive to encourage it, as there are cheap 777s all over the world.

But if it was a hijacking, maybe it was an unsuccessful one... maybe they got in the cockpit during a lav break, and got control. They may have known enough to pop the breakers, and switch off transponders, etc.

Then, a turn back toward some city for an attack, only to get lost at night. Even with GPS, at 500 mph, it may be hard to find a building or target at night, maybe harder than they expected. At some point, they panic, or just decide to end it, and everyone's gone. Maybe the passengers revolted. Who knows. Or they exceeded the flight envelope and the plane broke up.

I just think that is way more plausible than 'reverse engineering' motives or anything.

Just a possible scenario.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: StuckInCA
Posted 2014-03-13 19:22:07 and read 38350 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 131):
1) yes they have access to China Southern's, but that is too obvious because sooner or later someone would ask questions.

But why would they even have to answer those questions? They could simply say it was scrapped. Or that they took it apart. Boeing nor the US could say anything about it.

I'm sorry, your theory is less realistic than a meteor strike in my opinion.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 19:23:09 and read 38485 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 223):

that thing is very interesting

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 19:23:46 and read 38360 times.

Quoting TheGov (Reply 238):
First of all, I would bet beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody, somewhere who is monitoring any one of the 3000 + satellites orbiting this planet saw something. But, out of an inane sense of national security for whichever nation's satellite caught what happened, that person or persons is not saying a word.

We don't know for sure that any countries have space-based radar, but the concept for the technology is certainly not a secret.

All of the radar satellites I know about are imaging satellites, not tracking/surveillance type satellites.

If space-based surveillance radar exists (would be USA or China's), and was monitoring the region, they would casually suggest somewhere to look instead of revealing the capability. But it does not look like that is the case.

Other than that, what else do you think a satellite could have seen? What kind of satellite? The US has already said they have good coverage there with their IR-detecting assets and did not detect an explosion in the flight levels.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Indy
Posted 2014-03-13 19:24:06 and read 38183 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 241):
7. If you can land and hide an airplane in a third word landing strip you could have a $300,000,000 asset.
Quoting billreid (Reply 241):
11. Theft is possible. (Think somalian theft of ships)

The thought crossed my mind. But is it realistic? When it comes to a car you can put on a stolen license plate and drive around for a while. Or you could take it to a chop shop and get some money. But a plane this size? There is always the ransom aspect I guess. How much is a plane worth to Malaysia Airlines? What would they pay to get the plane and the passengers back? Certainly possible. I can't imagine it being a straight theft but an elaborate multimillion dollar kidnapping maybe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-13 19:25:01 and read 38239 times.

Quoting samguan (Reply 211):
1. Airplane took off
2. Government was notified of a terrorist hijack
3. Military sent jet and shot it down
4. Sent ship and cleaned everything up.

Two problems with that which I see.

1) Too many people involved to keep it secret for long. The one thing I will agree about Malaysian 'incompetence' is that there seem to be a lot of people at the airline, the government aviation agency and the military anxious to talk to reporters and leak unsubstantiated information so that they sound important to reporters.

2) If the aircraft was shot down, one or five ships cannot clean up all the debris in a couple days.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 212):
With the way people are conditioned in the US after 9/11, there would have been a fighter escort within minutes.

I guess you would be surprised to know that 90% of the US border is not 'protected' by fighters available within less than one hour. That only a very few cities are such protected.

Just a few months ago an aircraft crossed the US/Canada border without permission, flew without any contact with ATC and made it all the way to Nashville, TN - all without being noticed. A review of radar data did show a primary return for the entire flight, but it was hidden in ground clutter for real-time ATC controllers.

The aircraft actually crashed on the grounds of the BNA airport.

Military security of borders is nowhere near as tight as folks on these threads want to believe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tockeyhockey
Posted 2014-03-13 19:26:20 and read 37999 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):
New Sanity Check.

A slight update to the sanity check I did in thread 16. Been trying to do this for 12 hrs - I can't keep up with the rumors,
The facts have not changed much.
Stuff that has changed is marked with * and italic

can i just add one detail back in that everyone seems to have forgotten from early threads? what about the pilot who was asked to try to reach out and only heard muffled/muddled voices? if true, that's a very important piece of information that seems to be dropping out of the conversation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: JettTracer
Posted 2014-03-13 19:26:45 and read 37956 times.

Not sure whether these have been answered earlier but can I check the following:

The passengers manifest list - is it true that there are 20 telecommunication experts personnel in that flight - capable of intercepting signal/ radar?
Any billionaires in the flight (questioning why they would want to take a commercial flight instead of private jet if it is true)
Any insider info to confirm this?

What are the possibilities that the flight is hijacked and escorted to an undisclosed location?

What are the possibilities for the black box to malfunctioned?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-13 19:27:12 and read 38314 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 244):
Then, a turn back toward some city for an attack, only to get lost at night. Even with GPS, at 500 mph, it may be hard to find a building or target at night, maybe harder than they expected. At some point, they panic, or just decide to end it, and everyone's gone. Maybe the passengers revolted. Who knows. Or they exceeded the flight envelope and the plane broke up.

Seriously, if that was the plan, they wouldn't be lost at night, the FMC can be programmed relatively easily for someone with mission planning and basic FMC knowledge. You wouldn't have to disconnect the autopilot except for the terminal phase of the attack. To prevent a passenger fightback, just depressurize the cabin for long enough and remain at high altitude long enough that would reduce the able-body count that can mount the fightback, etc etc etc etc.

Why is everyone seemingly so convinced it's hijacked or kidnapped? *shakes head*

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 19:29:21 and read 38346 times.

This is clearly a new set of tiles....

And this is an interesting find.

item


zoomed in

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-13 19:29:34 and read 38080 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 212):
If this thing was flying around for several hours, most of which it was "off-scope" (officially), then the question becomes -- why did Malaysia not notice something amiss earlier and do something about it? With the way people are conditioned in the US after 9/11, there would have been a fighter escort within minutes.

Because the rest of the world *isn't* conditioned like the US after 9/11. The Malaysian authorities have already said (I can't remember who, one of the military guys contradicting another of the military guys) that they saw the blip and didn''t do anything about it because it didn't look hostile. An airliner at cruise acts a lot differently than a fighter/attack aircraft coming in on a bombing run. It was apparently just loafing along at normal cruising speed at a fairly normal cruising altitude without heading towards anything important, so they didn't think much of it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 19:29:52 and read 38051 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 246):
that thing is very interesting

Were you able to see it? It certainly looks like a piece of heavy, metallic debris to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 19:32:05 and read 37362 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 253):
This is clearly a new set of tiles....

And this is an interesting find.

But the colors are off, and the shape looks more like a tanker than an aircraft...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 19:33:00 and read 37318 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 253):
This is clearly a new set of tiles....

And this is an interesting find.

It's pretty clear to me that that's a ship.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyinggoat
Posted 2014-03-13 19:33:40 and read 37263 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 253):

This is clearly a new set of tiles....

And this is an interesting find.

Looks like a ship to me...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 19:34:12 and read 37074 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 240):
By saying they did not see anything, they do not have to explain why jets were not scrambled.

Maybe they are like the Swiss, the fast jet pilots dont work at night!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-13 19:34:32 and read 37086 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 255):
Were you able to see it? It certainly looks like a piece of heavy, metallic debris to me.

It looks like a boat to me; one of the many boats on these maps. Same shape. It's a little "ghost" like, probably because this is a set of tiles overlaid on another set of tiles. But I'm pretty sure it's just a boat.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-13 19:35:04 and read 37150 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 207):
nfortunately for the WSJ bloggerjourno who keep going on about it, one of the critics is me, who once lectured him about satcom at an airshow when he made some silly comment about it. Let's see how this pans out!

Very Interesting.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 159):
Chinese espionage theory would completely change if I knew they had enough fuel to make it to Iran via a roundabout method

There is, unfortunately, a lot of Iran paranoia both on these forums and in US media. Iran just signed a landmark agreement which by all accounts they have stuck to. Why would they try to hijack or destroy a plane of a friendly Muslim country just to throw it all away? Plus there were just 2 on-board.

Were there any Uyghur Chinese on the plane? They recently did that subway attack in China.

Anything on the Malaysian passengers? If anything, it looked they were trying to go back to KL not out West (though that might have happened for one reason or another).

I'm going to still vote either pilot issue or some kind of mechanical failure that we just haven't seen before.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-13 19:36:20 and read 36881 times.

Quoting TheGov (Reply 238):
I would bet beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody, somewhere who is monitoring any one of the 3000 + satellites orbiting this planet saw something.

I doubt someone is monitoring any of the satellites real time, full time.

An intelligence satellite is normally targeted for a specific target area. That part of the orbit gets intense scrutiny. The rest of the orbit, the sensing systems might actually be shut down to save power.

I don't think any nation would be 'wasting' resources on the Gulf of Thailand / South China Sea area where this plane disappeared in the middle of the night.

If one of those satellites happened to be within a window to 'see' the aircraft, I would be surprised.

Some areas of this globe get a lot of satellite information gathering activity, some areas get very little, some never get 'watched'.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: philask
Posted 2014-03-13 19:37:03 and read 36812 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 253):

Container ship.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 19:37:15 and read 37046 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 261):
Were there any Uyghur Chinese on the plane? They recently did that subway attack in China.

One of the Chinese artists was a Uighur. He was the pax whose name was deleted/obscured on some early publicly released manifest lists.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Indy
Posted 2014-03-13 19:38:17 and read 36649 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 252):
Why is everyone seemingly so convinced it's hijacked or kidnapped? *shakes head*

Because the plane is nowhere near where it should be. If you shake your head at that then can you come up with a sane reason the plane is nowhere near where it is supposed to be? A reason that explains not only the plane not being where it is supposed to be but the communication issues as well. There are no sane answers at this point. Everything points to this being completely bizarre and a hijacking is hardly that crazy. At this point pretty much only alien abduction is off the table.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-13 19:41:22 and read 36297 times.

Squint your eyes when you look at those images. Sadly looks like a container ship.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-13 19:41:35 and read 36397 times.

There were some areas on tomnod that DID look like a floating field of debris.


www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/64249

Now, when you click that area, they say its completed, and brings up other areas.

But they had so many reports of that area that they made a map of it, which was linked earlier.

When I first saw that field of debris, I did a CNN I report, and noticed others did too. Interesting pictures of chucks of sheet metal crumpled up, etc. Just nothing big enough to make out for sure, except maybe a piece of fuselage with about five windows.

But I think this was east of Malaysia, along the known and planned flight path, and not in the Indian Ocean

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 19:41:47 and read 36322 times.

Quoting Indy (Reply 265):
At this point pretty much only alien abduction is off the table.

You and I may agree on that, however I am sure there are those who disagree  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-13 19:41:50 and read 36321 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 253):

This is clearly a new set of tiles....

And this is an interesting find.

Thanks for posting that for me - I'm afraid the image upload function completely defeated me.

And I do see it now - more than likely a container ship. Oh well. I got very concerned at first when I saw it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-13 19:43:16 and read 36383 times.

Quoting JettTracer (Reply 251):

The passengers manifest list - is it true that there are 20 telecommunication experts personnel in that flight - capable of intercepting signal/ radar?

A company in Austin Texas reported that 20 of their Chinese and Malaysian employees were on the flight. The company is Freescale Semiconductor.

The company has been in business for 50+ years and makes "stand-alone semiconductors that perform dedicated computing functions in electronics systems:

Such as smartphones, appliances, automobiles. The company has 18,000 employees worldwide including 3,000 in Malaysia and 4,000 in China at the company production facilities. These employees were more likely production management types rather than design engineers.

Most of their design work is done in the US and Europe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: md80fanatic
Posted 2014-03-13 19:48:01 and read 35611 times.

Does anyone have an aspirin? Not for me .. for the moderators. Been gone all day and there's now 4 more threads that have rehashed the same stuff 9+ times now. What? Did I miss a reward for the first person to guess the correct events of this tragedy? Has there been a future SAR job offer for the first person to find this plane? This mass global confusion is almost as bad as not knowing anything at all. Okay, perhaps I could use an aspirin as well?   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-13 19:51:20 and read 34997 times.

I think when the United States became involved, we were able to paint an exacting picture of where 370 was flying, with other forensic details such as transponder no longer transmitting, and ACARS being disabled immediately following signing out with Malay ATC, then immediately executing a left turn, etc. The events such as ACARS pinging and following the radar blip from a few days ago, we were able to follow the route to where is disappeared. Now I'm sure we are deploying naval sonar assets, and we have a good idea where it's at. The question is, what was going on aboard the aircraft. And the problem is that we are now dealing with water several miles deep, not a mere 300' tops.

I think human factors are obvious, and that is was one or both pilots. ACARS wasnt completely disabled (fire in avionics bay) because it continued pinging, with the synchronized being handed to Vietnam ATC, failure to check in, ACARS disabled, and then a left turn, all within 10 mins. I think searching for debris would be futile, use of sonar looking for FDR pinging is they way to find it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-13 19:51:32 and read 35159 times.

WSJ byline now says ... 'location and altitude' data was contained in the pings. Is there any 777 engineering document that outlines this method that we could read? If they had the location and altitude, with the timestamp (received onboard the satellite, or at the ground station) then it should be fairly trivial to calculate remaining fuel onboard, yes ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: cal764
Posted 2014-03-13 19:53:08 and read 34665 times.

Anyone remember a few months back the guy that made a 'gun' using TSA-approved items such as a spray-can, hair-dryer, ect which propelled coins and could puncture sheetrock? Some people just want to prove that 'it can be done.' We could very well be dealing with someone of the like I.E. Knew the FO allowed others in the flight deck in the past and took advantage of that and other knowledge. On the same token, it does seem like the crew (maybe a former employee) may have something to do with this disappearance. The FedEx flight where there was a soon-to-be former employee flew jumpseat and crashed the plane comes to mind... Once again, RIP all souls on board if it is indeed found at the bottom of the Indian Ocean like the White House is so inclined to assume

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nick33326
Posted 2014-03-13 19:56:05 and read 34135 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 229):
Quoting nick33326 (Reply 69):
a very sophisticated kidnapping in which the plane, crew and passengers are being held somewhere for a large ransom, or worse;

At what point are they going to ask for their money or demands then? Surely by now...

Perhaps demands have already been made and said demands include not divulging that the aircraft/crew/pax are sitting somewhere as the ongoing mystery and worldwide agony will only add to potential payout kidnappers expect to collect?

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 229):
Quoting nick33326 (Reply 69):
terrorists have taken this aircraft and plan to use it to deliver a payload of (chemical, biological or nuclear weapons?) to a large city, which could make attacks of 9/11 pale in comparison.

Why go to a lengthy scheme like this which could easily fail? Surely far easier to steal a jet already parked on the ground, or even buy a retired airliner legally.

Indeed, it may be easier to steel a jet parked on the ground. But if the objective is terrorism, they've already succeeded to that end even without delivering any payload, haven't they? I don't think any event since 9/11 has received as much attention and news coverage as this. As far as buying a retired airliner legally, that would take a significant amount of money and, of course, paperwork. I think terrorists would prefer to avoid that!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-13 19:58:18 and read 33726 times.

I cannot even begin to imagine how it must feel to be a relative or a friend of a passenger on that ill fated flight.
The uncertainty of the situation is unbearable for us a.netters, I can only imagine how it must be for someone with a direct connection.

This has definitely been one of the most bizarre aviation accidents in recent memory.I think one thing that will come out of this is the need to have better, more reliable, and less manually changeable ways of precisely tracking an aircraft at all times. There should simply be no way to turn off a transponder. Just like there is no way of turning off a black box data recording.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-13 19:59:51 and read 34303 times.

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 273):

WSJ byline now says ... 'location and altitude' data was contained in the pings. Is there any 777 engineering document that outlines this method that we could read? If they had the location and altitude, with the timestamp (received onboard the satellite, or at the ground station) then it should be fairly trivial to calculate remaining fuel onboard, yes ?

This is a good start: http://tinyurl.com/mwud4k3

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 271):
Does anyone have an aspirin? Not for me .. for the moderators.

  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-13 20:00:18 and read 33933 times.

QUICK INTRO....I have been a reader of Airliners.net for many years and now just signed up as a result of the extra ordinary circumstances in relation to MH370 which I have followed since day1...I am an ex QF longhaul F/A .. my period of employment by QF being 1989-2011

SO... here's my theory based on my knowledge and the 'confirmed' info given by the 'authorities' via the press conferences thus far given to the public...

one of the pilots incapacitated the other pilot..could be done quickly with the right tool, and believe it or not, some airlines allow their flight crew onto aircraft WITHOUT going thru pre flight sreening that pax go thru.. ie NO body/hand luggage screening of flight crew

this lone pilot now has complete control of aircraft..turning off 'systems' ..telling cabin crew via phone AND pax via inflight PA, that due to a 'problem' they need to return to KL.. AVOD must be shut down because of the 'problem'... inflight crew inform cabin crew that 'such and such' will be happening via handset..cabin crew believe what they are being told...no reason not to!!! and pax believe what the flight crew tell them too!!...all the more believable on a flight IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT

and I actually believe the 'turnback' and 'ping' heard by the military belongs to MH370 (the Malay military and authorites 'incompetence' is a WHOLE OTHER ISSUE)

I conclude that MH370 has been 'hijacked' by a suicidal flight crew member...and flown over the Indian Ocean and taken a quick dive into the ocean...no time for ANYONE (pax or crew) in the cabin to react...as they were told all is fine...in the DARK OF THE NIGHT they were just returning to KL to fix the 'problem'

now after day 6 I fear the depth and vastness of the Indian Ocean has 'swallowed' MH370 .....along with the fact that no one is searching that ocean

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: EMA747
Posted 2014-03-13 20:01:47 and read 33831 times.

If we go down the hijacking route, what about a failed hijacking? Say for example somebody hijacks the plane, either a pax or one of the crew, and says fly it to XXX location (in a W, N/W direction). So the crew comply and it's turned off the flight path and heads out to the Indian ocean. Once over the ocean the crew say they are not going to comply and the hijackers get desperate and set off a bomb there and then. Alternatively what if they said they were going to use it as a weapon and the Captain decides he would rather ditch the plane than kill more innocent people on the ground.

Kind of far-fetched I know but it's not an angle I have seen discussed before.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-13 20:01:55 and read 33995 times.

Quoting cal764 (Reply 274):
The FedEx flight where there was a soon-to-be former employee flew jumpseat and crashed the plane comes to mind...

The pilots were able to land that plane... amazingly.... and after a couple of struggles with the attacker, and then regaining control of a stress damaged plane.

[Edited 2014-03-13 20:06:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 20:05:22 and read 33268 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 272):

I'm getting confused by all these conflicting media reports. There are stories saying ACARS was disabled 10 minutes before the transponder likely intentionally but wouldn't all the satcom reporting hardware get disabled or is there enough granularity to disable just the engine reporting for some reason. Then there are stories that say it was "pinging" for 4 hours after the transponder stopped. These don't make any sense together and both are coming from the same sites and the same sources. Are the RR engine reporting systems using a different computer and antenna than the non-subscribed but pinging Boeing systems.

I'm going to go with the simple idea that either ACARS was enabled or disabled and not halfway disabled.

We should just mandate planes tweet their ACARS messages so we don't have to depend on off hand info...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-13 20:09:45 and read 32678 times.

so many posts/theories on 'mechanical' reasons.....i'm stripping it back to basic 'human' factors...a human is the most 'flawed' item on any aircraft!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2014-03-13 20:09:50 and read 32766 times.

I suggested this before, but I believe that if this was a hijacking, it would have been people from Malaysia wanting to do a very embarrassing act upon the government and the military. They could be a minority ethnic group, someone extremist/radical group. They would be persons who look like Malaysians so no problem getting on board this flight. That may also explain the difficulties of the government and the military in the public handling of this disaster.

On the possibility of the PIC or FO taking over the a/c would meant having to incapacitate them within the cockpit or making sure they could not re-enter the cockpit. Let's try this scereio. The PIC takes over the plane when the FO is going to the lav. The a/c is turned, the autopilot is set, shut off the transponder then the pressurization turned off, to incapacitate everyone on board shortly. The flight it is 'seen' by the island radar and continues until its fuel runs out, somewhere over the Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-13 20:09:56 and read 32865 times.

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 278):
I conclude that MH370 has been 'hijacked' by a suicidal flight crew member...and flown over the Indian Ocean and taken a quick dive into the ocean...no time for ANYONE (pax or crew) in the cabin to react...as they were told all is fine...in the DARK OF THE NIGHT they were just returning to KL to fix the 'problem'

Until some authority states they saw MH370 on their primary radar crossing Malaysia, or Sumatra, or Nicobar Islands, or Southern Thailand, then... sorry... Getting to Indian Ocean the aircraft has to pass MORE THAN ONE of those authorities and their military primary radars.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 20:13:00 and read 32213 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 281):

I'm going to go with the simple idea that either ACARS was enabled or disabled and not halfway disabled.

You can shut down ACARS but the SATCOM will still attempt to maintain a connection to the satellite. Apparently the breaker to remove power from the SATCOM is in the E/E bay which is not easily accessed in flight, and was not accessed, because the system continued pinging.

It is fascinating that these pings contain location data, if the reports are true, though I suppose that would help the sat pick a beam?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-13 20:17:01 and read 31666 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 224):

No, this route has good radar coverage. They dropped off SSR and ADS-B, other flights in the area don't.

I beg to differ, and I do operate in that area reasonably frequently.

Aircraft do drop off ADS if they finish with one FIR and log onto the next, not all FIIRs have clean handovers. The ADS we are talking about here requires the crew to log on to VVTS, for VVTS to accept the connection, and then for the crew to send a manual position report.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 20:17:32 and read 31552 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 281):

I liken the SATCOM system to a router. It continues to check in with the satellite "server", even if it has no data to send.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 20:18:54 and read 31367 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 285):
You can shut down ACARS but the SATCOM will still attempt to maintain a connection to the satellite. Apparently the breaker to remove power from the SATCOM is in the E/E bay which is not easily accessed in flight, and was not accessed, because the system continued pinging.

The problem is the news story stated not the SATCOM controller but some Boeing maintenance system but not RR engine report was sending pings because it wasn't subscribed but still sent reports saying it was ready. Wouldn't all the maintenance data have to go through the ACARS system before it gets sent. Maybe if it makes sense that it was just the modem sending pings but that isn't what the news story said.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: desh
Posted 2014-03-13 20:18:58 and read 31415 times.

Did a quick search for Washingtonpost- did not find anything.



Helpful graphic - Apologies is this is a repost ...

I have heard that they took on 2 additional hours of fuel - so you could probably draw another circle between the two shown here and that covers pretty much all the places the plane could be either in one piece or not. Wonder what % of the Earths surface area that is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Boeing717200
Posted 2014-03-13 20:20:45 and read 31187 times.

So here's a thought.....

The Navy is headed to the Indian Ocean now because we got fed up with what appears to be a goat rope Search and Rescue and called the CIA and had them look at what satellite data they have. I thought it odd that today of all days, the White House speaks and a ship heads off. One would think there'd need to be a security clearance to release information from whatever satellite assets we have in the area. The White House would obviously be in the loop on this. Ship sails off on its own and by this time tomorrow the plane is found.

It just seems a bit odd the Navy would send a ship off on a 24 hour cruise on a hunch. Just seems odd to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: sipadan
Posted 2014-03-13 20:21:15 and read 31208 times.

Airplane DID NOT have ANY mechanical issue!!!!!!!!! So, then what???? 100% certainty that a/c was commandeered. Okay, by who???? Duh, the PILOT!!!!! I know I'll be the recipient of much backlash, but the aviation community and public deserve some resolution and peace of mind (though that perhaps will be elusive), and the FAMILIES of the passengers NEED to know what the hell has happened. It is CLEAR AS DAY...again, as some of this I've posted previously on thread 19 post 21...just a mere coincidence that TURNAROUND and failure of transponder occur immediately after handoff to ATC...come on, like terrorists would no precisely when this moment of flight would take place. Other electronics on a/c disabled separately, at different moments (gee, seems like someone knows this a/c fairly well, AND has a decent knowledge base vis a vis electronics). Dude had his own flight simulator at home...be interesting to see if he had flown many simulations flying at very specified FL's through specific flight paths at specific times (you think????). Dude knew the in and outs of avionics...who could have possibly done a better job of making this plane go dark in that specific airspace, duh...US intelligence just SO concerned over this terrorist action, NOT!!! Wow, these terrorists...makes perfect sense that they would target this by and large RANDOM plane, make no demands or claims and achieve nothing (oh, but maybe it was a dry run . Yeah, sure). And for those out there who are still, for reasons I frankly no longer understand, clinging to this mechanical failure/accident possibility...you can't be serious...please reevaluate all that is known...no signals, TURNED off SEPARATELY...NO DEBRIS...NO ELT...NO COMMS...NO EVIDENCE OF TROUBLE AT ALL, ANYWHERE...this hypoxia/ depressurization theory is now a complete joke...and I apologize SINCERELY for my tone, but I am frustrated at the resistance to what is now SO SO OBVIOUS...I don't pretend to know why, or how (in regards to incapacitating co-pilot), or whether the plane has indeed fallen into Indian Ocean or landed on some remote runway, but what is now unequivocal is this LONE ACT...so much more supports it but I'll leave it here for now...and sometimes the answer to WHY??? is simply because HE COULD (with more complicated underlying factors obviously driving this decision)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-13 20:21:42 and read 31251 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 284):
Until some authority states they saw MH370 on their primary radar crossing Malaysia, or Sumatra, or Nicobar Islands, or Southern Thailand, then... sorry... Getting to Indian Ocean the aircraft has to pass MORE THAN ONE of those authorities and their military primary radars.

Air Force Chief Gen. Rodzali Daud said data analysis showed an intermittent plot to the west of the country, which was spotted last at 2:15 a.m., about 45 minutes after Flight 370 was lost from all radar over the South China Sea.

The object was some 200 miles northwest of Penang at an altitude of 29,500 feet. "I'm not saying it's MH370, we're still corroborating'' with civilians and experts to identify the aircraft, Gen. Rodzali told the briefing.

The military radar operators would have assumed that the unidentified aircraft was a civilian flight and so wouldn't have sounded the alarm to scramble jets, Gen. Rodzali said.


That doesn't qualify?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 20:21:47 and read 31041 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 287):
I liken the SATCOM system to a router. It continues to check in with the satellite "server", even if it has no data to send.

I understand that an Immersat terminal would have its own diagnostics functions but the news stories say Boeing's non-subscribed airplane data was sending pings not just the modem but maybe they are just confusing things. Do planes use distributed ACARS or is it all managed in one system. Also it wouldn't make much sense to just disable the engine ACARS and not disable the SATCOM modem if someone didn't want to be tracked.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-13 20:23:15 and read 30770 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 288):
The problem is the news story stated not the SATCOM controller but some Boeing maintenance system

AHM / EHM / etc all go over ACARS, which has VHF/HF/SATCOM available as downlinks, and the latter two only if installed and subscribed. They had SATCOM installed though, so when the hardware was powered it was maintaining a connection with the satellite. That is my understanding of the system.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-13 20:23:25 and read 30763 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 287):
I liken the SATCOM system to a router. It continues to check in with the satellite "server", even if it has no data to send.

We call it a keep alive signal in telecom. "Hello, I'm here but nothing to send."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-13 20:23:33 and read 30768 times.

Maybe I missed this in previous posts but when the press say ACARS stopped transmitting does that mean there was an abrupt end to a steady stream of reports or was that the last engine report at the top of climb or beginning of cruise which also coincides with the ATC handoff on which case you might expect no new transmissions unless there was a problem. The transponders then going off may have been the first indication of a problem not the lack of ACARS.
Also wouldn't it be unusual for one of the two flight crew to leave the cockpit at a point when there is an ATC handover?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-13 20:25:30 and read 30532 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 284):

. but 'UNTIL' ... doesn't mean it cant be a possibility... you've only just highlighted the MANY military 'areas' of various countries....keeping in mind that the 'ping'/'blip' on the Malay military radar still hasn't been confirmed as to WHAT IT ACTUAL WAS!! they just say it 'wasn't hostile'!!!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: yvphx
Posted 2014-03-13 20:26:15 and read 30352 times.

Is there a possibility that one of the passengers attached a Luggage GPS Tracker? Could this be an item that searchers havn't asked the next of kin to the passengers yet because its an after thought?

For those of you who do not know what this is, Google Luggage GPS Tracker.

These are relatively cheap, small and simple. I am not sure if these will transmit underwater or not, but perhaps this is a route that hasn't been though of yet with passengers families.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-13 20:30:44 and read 29870 times.

Quoting yvphx (Reply 298):
I am not sure if these will transmit underwater or not

"Transmit" to where? If the plane is over an ocean, what is it connecting to to transmit?

Bottom line is to believe that, you also have to believe that the cell phones are working.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-13 20:32:41 and read 29649 times.

Bodies stay underwater at salty warm waters at sea for about 4-10 days before starting to float due to gasses produced inside the body. The warmer water temperature, the more faster the process. So this could help a bit in searching.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-13 20:34:35 and read 29302 times.

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 273):

How much of that info can you infer from the location of the satellite and the time taken for pings, and what would need to be encoded?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: sbkom
Posted 2014-03-13 20:36:25 and read 29244 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 285):
It is fascinating that these pings contain location data, if the reports are true, though I suppose that would help the sat pick a beam?

The pings do not necessarily contain the location data. But the satellite antennas can approximate the originating signal's location.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 20:37:14 and read 29326 times.

I'm baffled. We've heard this story now four times! Cue M'asia: Time to announce that there was no satellite messaging.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 20:40:26 and read 28720 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 294):
AHM / EHM / etc all go over ACARS, which has VHF/HF/SATCOM available as downlinks, and the latter two only if installed and subscribed. They had SATCOM installed though, so when the hardware was powered it was maintaining a connection with the satellite. That is my understanding of the system.

So either the news article is insane or it was just the modem sending pings which does make sense if it is the case. I hope they can clear things up before posting articles as it is really hard to read when everything makes zero sense.

Because we have articles saying ACARS deliberately disabled -10 minutes before last fix and ACARS reporting 4 hours after last fix. When I guess they should be saying SATCOM transmitting 4 hours later? How hard is it to pull the breakers on the SATCOM transmitter.

From abcNews
"The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down at 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m"

In my view the fact that the transponder shut off later is strongly against an hijacking theory as it would make far more sense to disable that first. ACARS is probably not as redundant or critical as the transponder or radio and 10 minute difference could still be a catastrophic failure of some sort. In my view non-critical systems would obviously be first to fail while in a deliberate case the most critical systems would be the first to be disabled. Of course if the SATCOM modem was still transmitting four hours later that would be the opposite way but I'll wait till they clear that bit up.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: rotating14
Posted 2014-03-13 20:41:24 and read 28765 times.

Hello. I am late to this thread but came across an interesting article that deserves a quick read if not a glance.

http://thehayride.com/2014/03/heres-...about-that-malaysian-airlines-777/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-13 20:42:35 and read 28448 times.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 291):

I hear you!!.... the 'blinkered' public cant imagine/fathom that ANY flight crew could commit such an act...FLIGHT CREW ARE HUMANS!!! im sticking by my theory...this act was executed by a FLIGHT crew member and MH370 is somewhere in depths of the Indian Ocean

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 20:42:58 and read 28449 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 304):
In my view the fact that the transponder shut off later is strongly against an hijacking theory as it would make far more sense to disable that first

No, that would alert ATC.

You'd want to delay ATC suspicion as long as you could.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: glbltrvlr
Posted 2014-03-13 20:46:29 and read 28227 times.

Quoting sbkom (Reply 302):

The pings do not necessarily contain the location data.

WSJ is now reporting that they did...

Quote:
Malaysia Airlines missing jet transmitted its location repeatedly to satellites over the course of five hours after it disappeared from radar, people briefed on the matter said, as searchers zeroed in on new target areas hundreds of miles west of the plane's original course. The satellites also received speed and altitude information about the plane from its intermittent "pings," the people said.
Posted 2014-03-13 20:46:52 and read 27933 times.

I've read most of this thread, so I apologize if what I'm asking has been dealt with--I missed it!
A while back (threads 14-15?) there was talk about examining the Captain's flight simulator to see if any "suspicious routes or activities" had been logged or practiced. Anything new about that?
Also, when mention of crew-initiated hijacking has been mentioned recently, it seems like captain is most people's first, most logical choice. Why is that?
Thanks for whatever further info/opinions you can provide.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2014-03-13 20:47:24 and read 28016 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 240):
No they can not stop the masks from falling. The masks fall automatically or through a cockpit switch and give passenger breathing for about 30 minutes. The pilot DO HAVE CONTROL to depressurize the airplane at any point for as long as they want. Their oxygen system last longer than the passengers.

Are you familiar with the systems on the 777? I only ask because on commercial aircraft I've flown you CAN prevent the masks from falling.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 20:48:00 and read 27967 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 307):
No, that would alert ATC.

You'd want to delay ATC suspicion as long as you could.

Why they had a few hours before they were next supposed to be contacted (It took two additional hours to realize even after they lost transponder data). Disabling ACARS which is slower and not as important doesn't make any sense. Not to mention isn't it easier to turn off the transponder than ACARS hence more probable to be the first thing to be disabled (9/11 had that happen). The less transponder secondary radar data the better in a deliberate case as it is harder to track a plane without it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: audioace87
Posted 2014-03-13 20:48:18 and read 27729 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 307):
You'd want to delay ATC suspicion as long as you could.

And at the point of handoff between two international ATCs would be the perfect opportunity to do that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tyler81190
Posted 2014-03-13 20:48:57 and read 27721 times.

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 309):
Also, when mention of crew-initiated hijacking has been mentioned recently, it seems like captain is most people's first, most logical choice. Why is that?
Thanks for whatever further info/opinions you can provide.

I am curious to that as well.. Why not the FO or why not both of them??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: TwoSixLeft
Posted 2014-03-13 20:49:20 and read 27692 times.

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 309):
A while back (threads 14-15?) there was talk about examining the Captain's flight simulator to see if any "suspicious routes or activities" had been logged or practiced. Anything new about that?

As far as we know, there hasn't been any police search of the captain's home. I believe the Malaysian authorities made a statement to that effect at some point in the past day or so.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 20:50:48 and read 27560 times.

Tomlee in #304 makes a great point IMO:

"In my view the fact that the transponder shut off later is strongly against an hijacking theory as it would make far more sense to disable that first."

Why not shut down the most obvious locator instrument like transponder first if deliberate?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-13 20:50:57 and read 27763 times.

CNN just interviewed a US Navy Captain who said a P8 Poseidon was en route to KUL to participate in the search over the indian ocean

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: StuckInCA
Posted 2014-03-13 20:51:46 and read 27419 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 270):
These employees were more likely production management types rather than design engineers.

Maybe. Maybe not. I highly doubt that the presence of these people had anything to do with the disappearance of the plane, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with whay you say (though it may be the case).

For anyone who isn't aware, Freescale used to be part of Motorola.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 20:53:31 and read 27138 times.

Quoting audioace87 (Reply 312):
And at the point of handoff between two international ATCs would be the perfect opportunity to do that.

It would be the perfect time to turn off the transponder which isn't the first thing disabled. The backwards order doesn't make sense to me if it was deliberate. If the planned it that point would it not be ideal to shut the transponder off but instead the turnning off ACARS but not satcom and wait ten minutes before turning off the transponder? What is the difference in steps in turning off the transponder vs. turning of ACARS (I know it is just a knob for the transponder but what about ACARS, the ease of each operation plays an important role if your talking about suicidal/terrorist/hijackers)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 20:53:46 and read 27220 times.

If you are hijacking the plane as a mass killing terrorist act, why isn't the Gulf of Thailand a good enough spot to crash it?

On the other hand, why not crash it into a target on land right now and make a really big incident?

Why crash it in the ocean far away from anywhere? Did you botch the plan and crash when you weren't supposed to?

Why fly it a long distance?

To be used on another target later?

Delivering to some other group who will use it later?

Hold it for ransom?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Wolger
Posted 2014-03-13 20:55:49 and read 26935 times.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 291):

Hello guys,

I am new here. I've been lurking for some time and followed the thread's discussion obsessively since Day 1.

Point no1:Just to set things straight when posters repeatedly brought up the home simulator issue and speculated the pilot could have used it to practice on something malicious, then only I'd decided to chip in to spice up the discussions. This could be far from truth as the pilot like me who is an avid flight simmer, the setup is pretty common for serious simmers. They could be overly obsessed on right down to the smallest details which set apart normal flight-based games from flight simulators.

http://www.x-sim.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20&start=110#p3972
This is the thread I believe where the photo of his setup is taken from.

Why got a flightstick/joystick (specifically Saitek Cyberg Evo, commercial planes use yoke) if he want to use his simulator to do something malicious. And he posted way back in 2012, and I don't think people would take such a long time to "practice". There are other photos taken from his FB account like plane models, RC crafts showing he could be passionate about his job and aviation in general.

Point no2: Pilot suicide - both pilot and co-pilot are ethnic Malay-Malaysians who are Muslims. Suicide is frowned upon, you could go to hell for this they believe. I don't think there's suicide case I've heard of happening in Malaysia involving ethnic Malays. Only ethnic-Chinese Malaysians would commit suicide out of depressions or for other reasons. Muslims who commit suicide killing others - will try to state a point, die martyr or will let the whole world know why they do this. If theory involves pilots - they could have gone crazy or amuk - this is more believable.

[Edited 2014-03-13 20:56:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Enobar
Posted 2014-03-13 20:56:38 and read 26668 times.

Quoting Indy (Reply 185):
What if this was a hijacking and the plane got shot down?

That is my theory for what its worth. The plane was either suffering mechanical issues, or a hijack scenario. Its ventured off course in China, the military has shot it down. Then, fearful of international condemnation for shooting down a potentially innocent passenger jet, they have taken advantage of the SAR being focussed in the completely wrong area to clean up a genuine crash site. It could have even come down in remote China where there is little chance of it being found.''

Crazy theory? Maybe... but on day 6 we are well into crazy territory.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-13 21:00:30 and read 26386 times.

This guy is hearing it flew 3,650 miles. (https://twitter.com/flyingwithfish) Possible ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:01:00 and read 26164 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 315):
Why not shut down the most obvious locator instrument like transponder first if deliberate?

Plus historically in terrorist/hijacking situations isn't the transponder the first thing to go. It would be pretty strange conversation to have with a hijacker saying shut off the RR engine data report right now but not the satcom modem. And then wait ten minutes and demand the locator be shut off. (That is what the news stories made me think)

In terms of history, ease of access, and tactical significance the transponder should have been first not some non-critical subsystem which only is really useful after the fact as it took days to get this info in the first place. By that point the plane would have crashed or hit its target long ago.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:01:26 and read 26147 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 315):

Why not shut down the most obvious locator instrument like transponder first if deliberate?

Why alert the authorities as your first act?

Also, turning off the transponder at handoff near IGARI introduces a bit of confusion as to who is responsible for finding you. It is right on the border of different ATC and search responsibility zones.

I would say that turning off the transponder at IGARI is the one thing so far that makes me think "hijack". It's a very convenient place to disappear.

[Edited 2014-03-13 21:03:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 21:01:55 and read 26176 times.

Also, if hijacking, why wasn't the hijack code transmitted? My speculation, if indeed deliberate, is that someone with a solid background in aviation would have to pull something like this off. This appears like sophisticated work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:02:35 and read 26096 times.

Quoting Enobar (Reply 322):
That is my theory for what its worth. The plane was either suffering mechanical issues, or a hijack scenario. Its ventured off course in China, the military has shot it down. Then, fearful of international condemnation for shooting down a potentially innocent passenger jet, they have taken advantage of the SAR being focussed in the completely wrong area to clean up a genuine crash site. It could have even come down in remote China where there is little chance of it being found.''

Crazy theory? Maybe... but on day 6 we are well into crazy territory.

Well to de-crazy this thread one has to not make crazy theories in the first place. Technically speaking not doing SAR work the ocean will do the cleanup for you. In all likely hood it is possible that nature already cleaned up the easy to find stuff (fuel, small debris, biological materials).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Wolger
Posted 2014-03-13 21:02:41 and read 26125 times.

Another point - is why Somalia, to the far west of peninsular Malaysia.
Just another wild wild speculation by me. Remember there are few Somali pirates currently in Malaysian jails, who were captured by Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN Spec-ops PASKAL) few years ago. Pirates are dirt rich, they could hire pros or some crew members to hijack the plane and ultimately to demand the release of currently jailed pirates. Jailed pirates could be someone important or related to pirate bosses.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: drew777
Posted 2014-03-13 21:03:13 and read 26279 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 323):
This guy is hearing it flew 3,650 miles. (https://twitter.com/flyingwithfish) Possible ?

I quit following his posts after he stated that the plane landed safely and kidnapping the 20 people working for Freescale was the goal.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 21:04:07 and read 25960 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 270):

I think they were making much more than smartphones.

"While four passengers who boarded a missing Malaysian jet are under special investigation for stolen and other passport-related issues, twenty passengers were involved in cutting edge electronic technology used for defense purposes, including electronic warfare, such as weapons that can "cloak" or make planes invisible, appearing to vanish."

I guess it works.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-13 21:05:08 and read 25974 times.

If you read up on the pilot it's doubtful he is a religious fanatic. He went to a Western-oriented prep school Panang Free. The candidates he likes on Twitter are centrist anti-corruption types.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:05:45 and read 25881 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 326):
Also, if hijacking, why wasn't the hijack code transmitted?

I think the possible reasons for that are very obvious...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 21:06:13 and read 25816 times.

Quoting drew777 (Reply 329):

I was suspect of that guy, too. But take a look - he's been spot on, and about 30 minutes ahead of the curve. He and Jon Ostrower - they're clearly sharing intel.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:07:36 and read 25605 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 326):
Also, if hijacking, why wasn't the hijack code transmitted? My speculation, if indeed deliberate, is that someone with a solid background in aviation would have to pull something like this off. This appears like sophisticated work.

Perhaps the co-pilot returned to his habit of letting passengers fool around in the cockpit...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: sipadan
Posted 2014-03-13 21:09:46 and read 25460 times.

Quoting Wolger (Reply 321):
oint no2: Pilot suicide - both pilot and co-pilot are ethnic Malay-Malaysians who are Muslims. Suicide is frowned upon, you could go to hell for this they believe. I don't think there's suicide case I've heard of happening in Malaysia involving ethnic Malays. Only ethnic-Chinese Malaysians would commit suicide out of depressions or for other reasons. Muslims who commit suicide killing others - will try to state a point, die martyr or will let the whole world know why they do this. If theory involves pilots - they could have gone crazy or amuk - th

pilot is an athesist..Richard Dawkins fan etc...for all to see on his you tube page

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:12:14 and read 24911 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 326):
Also, if hijacking, why wasn't the hijack code transmitted? My speculation, if indeed deliberate, is that someone with a solid background in aviation would have to pull something like this off. This appears like sophisticated work.

If there is one thing I learned it is that we are only really protected from terrorism because truly smart/sophisticated people don't do that kind of stuff.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 334):
Perhaps the co-pilot returned to his habit of letting passengers fool around in the cockpit...

Transponder would still be the first thing to go.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-13 21:12:56 and read 24938 times.

Just had an RNZAF P-3 fly low over my house in Auckland. Boy they sure did expand that search zone.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-13 21:12:57 and read 25008 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 323):
This guy is hearing it flew 3,650 miles. (https://twitter.com/flyingwithfish) Possible ?



Live Map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934

I honestly don't think so, but who knows... The large red circle is a 3650 mile radius on the last point of contact... Did he say what airfield they used?


SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 21:13:03 and read 24955 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 332):

I know there are many reasons for not sqwaking the hijack codes. But, wouldn't pax be aware of hijacking and attempted to contact with cell phones, hand set phone, sat phone, text etc.? Could a hijack be carried out so quietly not to arouse suspicion in anyone? Cabin crew wouldn't be alarmed?

[Edited 2014-03-13 21:16:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: ANydam
Posted 2014-03-13 21:13:15 and read 25047 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 300):
Bodies stay underwater at salty warm waters at sea for about 4-10 days before starting to float due to gasses produced inside the body. The warmer water temperature, the more faster the process. So this could help a bit in searching.

Interesting, first time I've heard this. Maybe something new (human bodies) will come to light in the near future.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-13 21:15:48 and read 24695 times.

The news media are as usual clueless. ACARS made its last report at 1:07 and wasn't due to report again until landing (?) it wasn't turned off!!!

If it crashed on land the ELT would go off -- if it ditched satisfactorily the ELTs in the slide/rafts would be manually activated.

The only thing we know for sure is the transponder signal disappeared at 1:21 and the airplane never made it to Beijing.

If the airplane kept flying the CVR will be of possibly no value as it writes over itself every 2 hours (?). We'll miss all the action.

VHF & HF circuit breakers are in the cockpit and if they were pulled the ACARS would transmit over SATCOM when required.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: sipadan
Posted 2014-03-13 21:16:57 and read 24397 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 325):
I would say that turning off the transponder at IGARI is the one thing so far that makes me think "hijack". It's a very convenient place to disappear.

yes...I really don't understand the opposing logic...and, these aren't "hijackers". This is a seasoned pilot who knows every in and out of plane, aviation etc...there was a method to the madness, even if it doesn't necessarily seem to "make sense" to some of the people on this forum. This "mystery" is right there in front of everyone, but for reasons that I'm apparently oblivious to, people don't want to see it for what is. oh well.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-13 21:17:48 and read 24478 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 330):
Freescale


make sense,

Freescale call a press conference at KUL on Sunday morning, Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman for the young ones out there) is the new Freescale Spokesperson.

Who announces that Freescale have been upgrading her old technology and are looking to sell it to the highest bidder..simple

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: D L X
Posted 2014-03-13 21:18:24 and read 24157 times.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 317):
Freescale used to be part of Motorola.

They were the part of Motorola that made microchips, like the PowerPC chip that powered Macintoshes.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 330):
"While four passengers who boarded a missing Malaysian jet are under special investigation for stolen and other passport-related issues, twenty passengers were involved in cutting edge electronic technology used for defense purposes, including electronic warfare, such as weapons that can "cloak" or make planes invisible, appearing to vanish."

Where did this quote come from?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Planeflyer
Posted 2014-03-13 21:21:40 and read 23809 times.

As they say 1st time long time.

Love the site. So informative!

Given the latest info regards how long the plane was apparently airborne it seems a hijacking incident is now a bit more likely.

But if it is who would benefit?

Any government? No way!

Any group? Who needs hostages? Who has lots of members, high level ones at that in various prisons around the world?

Where would they land and hide? Well the one group that fits the description above has quite a few followers in southern Thailand, Indonesia, the Philippines and even Northern Malaysia.

The above is probably not very likely but I’ll bet dimes to $’s that Al Qaeda has thought of this and is looking for weak spots. And Malaysia might be the perfect weak spot. As Muslim countries go Malaysia after all is relatively open and as someone earlier stated the co-pilot could have been a possible recruit. He’s certainly the right age.

And it would take at least a few weeks to disperse the hostages into secure locations so this could explain the lack of any claim.

Yep, I know unbelievable but any less so than 9/11?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:21:44 and read 23817 times.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 342):
yes...I really don't understand the opposing logic...and, these aren't "hijackers". This is a seasoned pilot who knows every in and out of plane, aviation etc...there was a method to the madness, even if it doesn't necessarily seem to "make sense" to some of the people on this forum. This "mystery" is right there in front of everyone, but for reasons that I'm apparently oblivious to, people don't want to see it for what is. oh well.

It does make sense to turn it off there what doesn't make sense is why turn of ACARS first as some news stories are claiming. It is easier and logical to turn off the transponder first at that prime moment and then shut off the rest of the comms.

It doesn't matter how experienced or knowledgeable the deliberate person was the transponder would have been the first thing to go. Except it was the last thing to go. I'm not saying hijacking is impossible it just seems very unusual and unlikely that a hijacking even by crew would turn the transponder off last at just such a position where no one would notice.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-13 21:24:02 and read 23436 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 118):
locked the other one out

How does the 777 cockpit door actually lock? If it is a combination, how can you lock the pilot out if he knows the combo? Who sets the combo? If its a key, can't the pilot have a copy of the key when he goes to the washroom?

Quoting hivue (Reply 180):
For the record, I think this airplane is sitting on the bottom of the Gulf of Thailand not far from where it disappeared.

This is my conclusion too. To my knowledge the SAR has been searching the surface, but have they been looking on the ocean floor yet. I agree there will debris, but maybe its drifted somewhere different than expected.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:26:42 and read 23127 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 339):

I know there are many reasons for not sqwaking the hijack codes. But, wouldn't pax be aware of hijacking and attempted to contact with cell phones, hand set phone, sat phone, text etc.? Could a hijack be carried out so quietly not to arouse suspicion in anyone? Cabin crew wouldn't be alarmed?

Cell phones aren't likely to work.

If the hijackers knew to turn things off, then they knew to turn the seat phones off and even the moving map display.

It's a bad thought, but maybe the hijacker(s) went on oxygen, disabled the passenger oxygen, and depressurized the cabin? The re-pressurized and flew on?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-13 21:26:45 and read 23110 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 347):
hy turn of ACARS first as some news stories are claiming

I was led to believe from this forum that ACARS isn't always transmitting, that it would have completed a transmission after reaching cruising alt., and not again for 30 minutes. So isn't it entirely possible that ACARS was in fact turned off later, and not before the transponder?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-13 21:28:55 and read 23051 times.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 342):

totally agree... admittedly I stupidly referred to the 'pilot' a s a 'highjacker' ...but only in the context as the pilot 'highjacked' the aircraft to use as his tool to commit 'personal' suicide and bringing all the pax/crew with him!! ..REGARDLESS of his religious/political beliefs

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:30:20 and read 22759 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 347):
It does make sense to turn it off there what doesn't make sense is why turn of ACARS first as some news stories are claiming. It is easier and logical to turn off the transponder first at that prime moment and then shut off the rest of the comms.

It doesn't matter how experienced or knowledgeable the deliberate person was the transponder would have been the first thing to go. Except it was the last thing to go. I'm not saying hijacking is impossible it just seems very unusual and unlikely that a hijacking even by crew would turn the transponder off last at just such a position where no one would notice.

Perhaps ACARS is simply less obvious to the other pilot? Perhaps you can turn off ACARS without your fellow pilot noticing?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: sipadan
Posted 2014-03-13 21:30:23 and read 22777 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 347):
It doesn't matter how experienced or knowledgeable the deliberate person was the transponder would have been the first thing to go. Except it was the last thing to go. I'm not saying hijacking is impossible it just seems very unusual and unlikely that a hijacking even by crew would turn the transponder off last at just such a position where no one would notice.

unless you know what your endgame is and how everything will look to investigators...if total confusion is one of the aims (which it clearly is), then not doing things in complete, logical sequential order actually makes perfect sense...this guy knew what he was doing and knew how utterly and comprehensively confusing this would be everyone. I have every confidence that he thought through all of this in the most minute of detail...of course there is always the unexpected (which could also explain the transponder not going first--fate and opportunity or lack theer of intervening.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:31:03 and read 22862 times.

I find it absolutely reprehensible that Malaysian Airlines and their government officials said for literally DAYS that there were no ACARS transmission from the plane. Knowledgeable folks like many here on a.net initially asked about ACARS data and were pointed to repeated statements that there were NO transmissions from the aircraft after the last ADS-B location.

And that was a complete and utter lie. I concede the the ineptitude level of these folks is truly remarkable, but someone had to know how to access the ACARS data, because it took the American investigators like five seconds to determine that it existed.

There is always an initial "fog of investigation" as a lot of pieces of information of various degrees of reliability come in, but there has been enough time now that someone who knows what the hell they are doing should have organized it and presented it truthfully, as the NTSB now does.

There is a significant security concern because this could well be another high-concept, low-tech terrorist attempt, and the idea of taking an aircraft and its passengers "to use later" seems almost a combination of elements of Somali hijacking and Al-Quada terrorism. If there is an Act II to this drama -- wow.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2014-03-13 21:31:25 and read 22827 times.

Quoting Indy (Reply 248):
The thought crossed my mind. But is it realistic? When it comes to a car you can put on a stolen license plate and drive around for a while. Or you could take it to a chop shop and get some money. But a plane this size? There is always the ransom aspect I guess. How much is a plane worth to Malaysia Airlines? What would they pay to get the plane and the passengers back? Certainly possible. I can't imagine it being a straight theft but an elaborate multimillion dollar kidnapping maybe.

All of it is extremely unlikely, but on the other hand the Malaysian Air Force had a year or 2 ago 2 or 3 jet engines (Mirage?) stolen and they were found back in Argentina on the way to Venezuela. Nothing political - just a way to make easy money. So weird stuff does happen...

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 330):

I think they were making much more than smartphones.

"While four passengers who boarded a missing Malaysian jet are under special investigation for stolen and other passport-related issues, twenty passengers were involved in cutting edge electronic technology used for defense purposes, including electronic warfare, such as weapons that can "cloak" or make planes invisible, appearing to vanish."

I guess it works.

They were 20 production engineers responsible for cost cutting of chip manufacturing. They can not design chips, they can't use the chips, they only know how to manufacture them even cheaper than they already were. And on top of that they were Malaysian and Chinese so an American firm would not even let them touch anything defense related. They were just 20 people at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:33:43 and read 22564 times.

Quoting bajamatic (Reply 351):
I was led to believe from this forum that ACARS isn't always transmitting, that it would have completed a transmission after reaching cruising alt., and not again for 30 minutes. So isn't it entirely possible that ACARS was in fact turned off later, and not before the transponder?

I'm not sure what to believe but the news story stated the US government thought ACARS was deliberately turned off at a separate time than the transponder (10 minutes before roughly) how they know this isn't clear to me. Not to mention the reports of 4 hours of ping reports from ACARS (more likely the satcom modem) is confusing.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 350):
Cell phones aren't likely to work.

If the hijackers knew to turn things off, then they knew to turn the seat phones off and even the moving map display.

It's a bad thought, but maybe the hijacker(s) went on oxygen, disabled the passenger oxygen, and depressurized the cabin? The re-pressurized and flew on?

Doesn't stop someone with a PLB, satphone, PLB+messaging, GPS with offline map database (me, probably at least a few more similar people in the world as well). Not to mention disabling the displayed map and then turning around secretly will definitely look suspicious to such passengers. (Don't ever intend to use a PLB in the air but in a hijack situation why not try).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 21:34:20 and read 22312 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 350):

Why wouldn't cell phones work? If the events unfolded 40-50mins into flight, you are not exactly close to KL, but not too far either, and just off the coast of Malaysia. There is a decent possibility to pick up cell phone signal to make calls. No one w sat phones either on flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:34:33 and read 22397 times.

The transponder is the end of any charade. Once you turn off the transponder, your fellow pilot knows you are up to no good. So it would be turned off last in the plan, as it is your point of no return.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:36:41 and read 22047 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 358):

IIRC, they reached 35K feet in about 15 minutes. Do cell phones work at 35K feet?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: sipadan
Posted 2014-03-13 21:38:58 and read 21844 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 347):
It doesn't matter how experienced or knowledgeable the deliberate person was the transponder would have been the first thing to go. Except it was the last thing to go. I'm not saying hijacking is impossible it just seems very unusual and unlikely that a hijacking even by crew would turn the transponder off last at just such a position where no one would notice.

also, if the transponder doesn't go off right at handoff, and instead goes off when definitively in Malay or Vietnam airspace, it will diminish the possible confusion inherited by ATC. Of course seeing a plane disappear will be confusing, but if it happens at handoff it will be THAT MUCH MORE SO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2014-03-13 21:40:20 and read 21672 times.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 356):

They were 20 production engineers responsible for cost cutting of chip manufacturing. They can not design chips, they can't use the chips, they only know how to manufacture them even cheaper than they already were. And on top of that they were Malaysian and Chinese so an American firm would not even let them touch anything defense related. They were just 20 people at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yes. Certainly among all the passengers on all the planes in the world, a bunch of Freescale engineers aren't going to be anything remarkable.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 21:41:51 and read 21662 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 360):

Yes, I texted pics from SQ 61 over Greenland. The plane had OnAir. Did this plane have wifi? I am not sure.

[Edited 2014-03-13 21:43:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: UALWN
Posted 2014-03-13 21:43:17 and read 21413 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 355):

I find it absolutely reprehensible that Malaysian Airlines and their government officials said for literally DAYS that there were no ACARS transmission from the plane.

Which apparently is true.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 355):
And that was a complete and utter lie.

It wasn't.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 355):
it took the American investigators like five seconds to determine that it existed.

Apparently, it took the American investigators 6 days to determine that the plane kept pinging some satellite. No ACARS message was ever transmitted.

I joined a.net at the time of a freak accident, AF447, and was amazed by the knowledge and critical thinking of some folks here. Not I may well abandon a.net after another freak accident, MH307, after being amazed by the lack of critical thinking and knowledge of some folks here. These 20 threads have been mostly appalling.

[Edited 2014-03-13 21:45:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:43:54 and read 21297 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 359):

The transponder is the end of any charade. Once you turn off the transponder, your fellow pilot knows you are up to no good. So it would be turned off last in the plan, as it is your point of no return.

No transponders can fail, radio's can fail, acars can fail. And what difference does 10 minutes make. It is still the transponder that would be the logical/easier/statically/historically choice in what to turn off first. ACARS probably isn't even safety related so if there was a mech/electrical problem it would be and was supposedly the first to go. (satcom pinging aside until that is cleared up more) and the transponder would fail later if the electrical problems got worse.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 361):
also, if the transponder doesn't go off right at handoff, and instead goes off when definitively in Malay or Vietnam airspace, it will diminish the possible confusion inherited by ATC. Of course seeing a plane disappear will be confusing, but if it happens at handoff it will be THAT MUCH MORE SO.

It happened after hand off not at hand off. In either case they didn't expect contact until two hours later when the tried to reach them and couldn't so it wouldn't matter what order you turn things off just that the transponder is easier to shut off and is the normal thing to turn off in such a case.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 21:44:04 and read 21091 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 355):
I find it absolutely reprehensible that Malaysian Airlines and their government officials said for literally DAYS that there were no ACARS transmission from the plane. Knowledgeable folks like many here on a.net initially asked about ACARS data and were pointed to repeated statements that there were NO transmissions from the aircraft after the last ADS-B location.

I know that there has been a ton of confusing and contradicting info coming from them, but the presently published info supports their claims.

The most recent WSJ article - the one that says the satellite "pings" do in fact contain location data - makes it clear that the airline did NOT subscribe to Boeing's maintenance program, and as such do NOT have access to this data. Boeing, on the other hand, does. And that's why Boeing is reporting this data - not the airline or government of Malaysia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:44:15 and read 21053 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 363):
Yes, I texted pics from SQ 61 over Greenland. The plane has OnAir. Did this plane have wifi? I am not sure.

I am not sure either, but I am sure that it can be turned off and the pax can be told it "isn't working for this flight".

That would be one more clue. If the plane had WiFi, and it was turned off, it points to a hijack.

[Edited 2014-03-13 21:45:13]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-13 21:45:29 and read 21112 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 355):
I find it absolutely reprehensible that Malaysian Airlines and their government officials said for literally DAYS that there were no ACARS transmission from the plane. Knowledgeable folks like many here on a.net initially asked about ACARS data and were pointed to repeated statements that there were NO transmissions from the aircraft after the last ADS-B location.

And that was a complete and utter lie.

Sounds like you have some reading to catch up. The satellite pings are not ACARS transmissions.
http://tinyurl.com/mqn2p5l

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 21:47:10 and read 20802 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 366):

Would love a link to this article.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:47:12 and read 20859 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 364):

I watched the press conference and it seems like it is more of the media amplifying rumours more than the Malaysian government being inept. Maybe they are not as good as our government at suppressing the media but they didn't seem like they were hiding anything.

Now that the US government is involved hopefully someone will be nice enough to leak the raw information so we can read/review it first hand.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: philask
Posted 2014-03-13 21:47:24 and read 20794 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 360):
IIRC, they reached 35K feet in about 15 minutes. Do cell phones work at 35K feet?

With almost certainty, no, while some signal may leak up to those altitudes it's way to high for a phone to lock onto a tower (especially once you also consider ground speed), even at 10,000 ft you need to be flying over a densely cell tower covered area to get a usable signal.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 21:47:24 and read 20783 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 365):

It happened after hand off not at hand off. In either case they didn't expect contact until two hours later

I think both of those are wrong.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 21:48:20 and read 20680 times.

Call me an optimist, but I feel like this investigation is starting to come together.

We know that acars and the transponder was switched off.. we now have satellite data with locations which are apparently well west of Malaysia... and we have some primary radar early in the timeline which supports that direction of travel as well.

It seems that the satellite pings occurred at neat one hour intervals, and then ceased; so the plane is probably within 500 miles of that last point.

It will be interesting to see where that final point was at, when the coordinates are released. I would suspect that the three or four coordinates they do have (one from each ping) are more or less in a straight line along a path to the intended destination.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: timothy31388
Posted 2014-03-13 21:49:03 and read 20591 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 367):

MH's aircraft do not have wifi. One aircraft was installed with a wifi device years back, but it was removed soon after.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 21:49:36 and read 20614 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 369):
Would love a link to this article.

Here you go. I had problems posting the real URL so I had to put it through tinyurl.

http://tinyurl.com/mqn2p5l

Here's the plain text of the link if you want to copy/paste it instead:

online.wsj.com/news/article_email/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350-lMyQjAxMTA0MDEwMzExNDMyWj



[Edited 2014-03-13 21:58:57]

[Edited 2014-03-13 21:59:45]

[Edited 2014-03-13 22:00:18]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-13 21:52:23 and read 20169 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 357):
Doesn't stop someone with a PLB, satphone, PLB+messaging, GPS with offline map database (me, probably at least a few more similar people in the world as well). Not to mention disabling the displayed map and then turning around secretly will definitely look suspicious to such passengers. (Don't ever intend to use a PLB in the air but in a hijack

Maybe the PAX were incapacitated, either by some depressurization, or even some type of chemical... like ricin or something? Or somehow the hijackers depressurizing plane, and they maybe thought breathing oxygen up front would protect them, and they ran out, and got disoriented.

How quickly could you cause 200+ passengers to pass out in a way they don't catch on? Is it possible? Could the hijackers don oxygen masks ahead of time, then cause the rest of the plane to become a ghost plane, either by depressurizing or by chemical?

I am really leaning toward a botched hijack mission.... just trying to resolve some questions I have in my own theory lol.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-13 21:53:03 and read 20432 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 363):
Yes, I texted pics from SQ 61 over Greenland. The plane had OnAir. Did this plane have wifi? I am not sure.

No, this plane does not have onboard wifi or onboard GSM service. It is not equipped for it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: lweber557
Posted 2014-03-13 21:53:36 and read 20379 times.

Another theory of mine much like my speculation earlier.

In flight fire causes loss off comm/nav systems, possibly 1 by one before anyone realizes there is a fire. Once they do pilots are forced to make emergency decent and ditch into the sea. Pax and rest of crew are already dead because of smoke inhalation in the cabin. (they don't use oxygen for pax in fire emergencies) Because its a night landing on the water it doesnt go well and MH370 breaks into several pieces. They all sink under the sea overnight.

Might sound crazy but not as much as some the other theories I've read like the Chinese hijacking the plane to reverse engineer it or the Malaysian AF blowing to out of the sky and the government picking up the wreckage before anyone else starts searching. Anything can be true though its all speculation at this point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 21:54:31 and read 20269 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 372):
I think both of those are wrong.

If I am not mistaken the last communication was “All right, good night,” and then they were supposed to hand off but didn't. Then hour later when it didn't turn up they reported the flight as missing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: seb146
Posted 2014-03-13 21:56:32 and read 20049 times.

Someone made a passing comment about the private jet of a golfer crashing where everyone, including both pilots, passed out and died and the jet simply crashed. Could this happen? Why change course and turn the transponders off?

Why do I ask these questions at the end of long threads that will be locked and changed?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: Superfly
Posted 2014-03-13 21:56:44 and read 19990 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 376):
How quickly could you cause 200+ passengers to pass out in a way they don't catch on? Is it possible? Could the hijackers don oxygen masks ahead of time, then cause the rest of the plane to become a ghost plane, either by depressurizing or by chemical?

That happened in the movie Airport 1977.
In that case, someone would have had to tamper with the oxygen lines while the hijackers put on gas mask in a lavatory or something. Not sure if an oxygen mask can be brought on as a carry one item.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-13 22:00:45 and read 19516 times.

To reply 381.... I was kinda thinking about them donning the masks in the cockpit after taking the plane, and before knocking the passengers out

[Edited 2014-03-13 22:02:43]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 22:02:04 and read 19537 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 369):
Would love a link to this article.

Here you go. I had problems posting the real URL so I had to put it through tinyurl.

http://tinyurl.com/mqn2p5l

Here's the plain text of the link if you want to copy/paste it instead:

online.wsj.com/news/article_email/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350-lMyQjAxMTA0MDEwMzExNDMyWj

For reference, this is the WSJ article that says the satellite pings did in fact return position data which has established the course of MH370 for at least several hours.

[Edited 2014-03-13 22:03:35]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-13 22:02:30 and read 19298 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 382):

To reply 381.... I was kinda thinking about them donning the masks in the cockpit after taking the plane, and before knockout ng the passengers out

Ask the Russians about how reliable chemical knockout agents actually are. They show up in movies. They don't show up in real life all that often, and when they do, they seem to kill all sorts of people.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 22:03:19 and read 19242 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 375):

Thank you!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-13 22:05:16 and read 19076 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 384):
Ask the Russians about how reliable chemical knockout agents actually are. They show up in movies. They don't show up in real life all that often, and when they do, they seem to kill all sorts of people.

So they do it by deressurizing the plane... or shutting off any capability for passengers to make calls...

I'm just wondering why no passengers made calls, as I think this was a deliberate act now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 22:05:19 and read 19229 times.

Random thought:

If the latest WSJ article is true (that we have several hours of position data), how mad would the controlling folks have to be to disable/shut off the satellite pings and then change course again? I.e. to throw off the investigation/search for the aircraft, making people think it crashed into the ocean when in reality it flew on for yet another 2-3 hours AFTER the last satellite ping with position data that Boeing has...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 22:07:25 and read 18947 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 376):
Maybe the PAX were incapacitated, either by some depressurization, or even some type of chemical... like ricin or something? Or somehow the hijackers depressurizing plane, and they maybe thought breathing oxygen up front would protect them, and they ran out, and got disoriented.

How quickly could you cause 200+ passengers to pass out in a way they don't catch on? Is it possible? Could the hijackers don oxygen masks ahead of time, then cause the rest of the plane to become a ghost plane, either by depressurizing or by chemical?

I am really leaning toward a botched hijack mission.... just trying to resolve some questions I have in my own theory lol.

I carry a P100+chemical gas mask for work. I'm pretty sure you can force open the emergency oxygen supply (I carry blunt small tools and I doubt the latch is very strong compared to what I have to deal with at work, especially since drop opening and lightweight are priorities) and there are portable bottles as well. Could I realize in time probably not, but I'm sure there are enough paranoid people out there to be "ready". Sometimes I have a gas meter as well so that would alert me in addition to the air pressure dropping as I like recording parameters when I fly (Recording air pressure is easy, always do that my devkit phone has that standard and many devices have barometers as well). Probably not a typical passenger but whatever there are ways.

Although all it would take is one smart passenger with a PLB to ruin their day probably.

Not to mention this a bit far fetched going into chemical/gas attacks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 22:08:31 and read 18668 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 387):

Wouldn't they need to refuel first?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-13 22:09:14 and read 18731 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 229):
This theory has been discounted as why would that involve the transponder being turned off at the same time. I suppose its possible to "knock it" grabbing for a mask or during a violent move of the plane or something...

No, it has not been discounted. Little has been discounted at this point aside from MAS370 safely landing at PEK. There are several ways a transponder could be disabled aside from someone setting it to STBY.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 353):
Perhaps ACARS is simply less obvious to the other pilot? Perhaps you can turn off ACARS without your fellow pilot noticing?

No, there isn't an "ACARS switch" on the flight deck one can casually flip with some sleight of hand. To sabotage the system would require opening the main deck access panel and taking a trip down to the E/E bay.

Mind you, ACARS is a system which several pieces of equipment use to send data out. EHM (diagnostic data from the engines) is one example. Weather report requests are another.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 53):
They are saying ACARS(Data Reporting System) went down @1:07AM and Transponders @1:21AM.

If this is accurate - and that's a big if - then it would stand to reason that this wasn't an act of sabotage. Otherwise, someone went down into the E/E bay and disabled ACARS, then they shut off the transponder 14 minutes later. Doesn't add up.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 380):

Someone made a passing comment about the private jet of a golfer crashing where everyone, including both pilots, passed out and died and the jet simply crashed. Could this happen?

It did happen. Payne Stewart was the golfer. He was in a private jet. Also happened to Helios 522, a 737.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 22:11:01 and read 18486 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 387):

Wondering along similar lines. Plane had fuel for trip and for two or more additional hours. The satellite pings went on for five hours which is roughly time to PEK, so presumably there might have been fuel for potentially more flying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-13 22:12:46 and read 18252 times.

I kinda added the chemical idea as an afterthought to my idea of hijackers having cockpit oxygen on then depressurizing the plane... I realize that was a mistake now, but my original thought still stands.

Hijackers in cockpit don masks, then somehow depressurize plane.

A passenger forcing down a mask would not necessarily start the oxygen running I would think.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 22:12:47 and read 18284 times.

Quoting timothy31388 (Reply 374):

So that's one less thing for a hijacker to worry about.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2014-03-13 22:13:36 and read 18297 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 380):
Someone made a passing comment about the private jet of a golfer crashing where everyone, including both pilots, passed out and died and the jet simply crashed. Could this happen? Why change course and turn the transponders off?

Why do I ask these questions at the end of long threads that will be locked and changed?

Metal fatigue related structural failure or bomb causes serious damage to onboard electronics/radios and explosive decompression. Pilot spins heading bug and altitude alerter to initiate decent and turn back toward land, switches to heading and some kind of vertical navigation mode. In panic neither pilot remembers to put on mask (or air hoses to mask were severed by the initial failure/blast. Pilots pass out and autopilot flies aircraft west at slightly lower altitude until fuel is exhausted.


... or not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 22:14:04 and read 18196 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 390):
If this is accurate - and that's a big if - then it would stand to reason that this wasn't an act of sabotage. Otherwise, someone went down into the E/E bay and disabled ACARS, then they shut off the transponder 14 minutes later. Doesn't add up.

I thought the same thing when reading an article titled US government believes it to be deliberate. When the order is all backwards if true. Disabling ACARS is a lower priority and more complicated and less important to a hijacker or rogue crew compared to disabling the transponder which is far easier to do. Why would it also take 10 minutes between doing this if you took control turning off the hard part first turning off the transponder would be a cakewalk in comparison.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 22:15:40 and read 18118 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 392):
A passenger forcing down a mask would not necessarily start the oxygen running I would think.

On the 777 I think there are individual chemical generators in the box. Just pull the pin to activate. Now don't try this on a regular flight as you will get in big trouble trying to do that.

Edit: pull the pin on the metal cylinder. Watch out though if you can pull the pin out the thing is liable to get very hot. Not to mention it is probable that the act of pulling the mask down pulls the pin out of the generator and the only thing the plane does it cut power to the door latch.

[Edited 2014-03-13 22:16:58]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-13 22:17:25 and read 17929 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 390):

If this is accurate - and that's a big if - then it would stand to reason that this wasn't an act of sabotage. Otherwise, someone went down into the E/E bay and disabled ACARS, then they shut off the transponder 14 minutes later. Doesn't add up.

Why couldn't the co-pilot, for example, go into the E/E bay and turn off whatever he could think of, prior to the hijacking?

Couldn't he get up for a bathroom break, and enter the E/E bay?

Or would he be on camera?

Would an F/A question him about going down there?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-13 22:17:30 and read 17964 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 389):
Wouldn't they need to refuel first?

The flight was scheduled for a duration of 5hrs, 50 minutes; there would have been at least another hour of fuel on board most likely. So you're looking at almost 7 hours of flight duration - and the satellite data only lasts for five.

So I think it's quite possible. Once we have the last known satellite ping location, a new circle can be drawn from that location with a radius of around 900 miles...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 22:19:53 and read 17698 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 397):
Why couldn't the co-pilot, for example, go into the E/E bay and turn off whatever he could think of, prior to the hijacking?

Couldn't he get up for a bathroom break, and enter the E/E bay?

Or would he be on camera?

Would an F/A question him about going down there?

I can't really think of a good reason for someone to go messing around with the electronics bay midflight without a good reason. Not to mention why do that first as it would possibly expose you to everyone around you. It would be smarter to not care as ACARS clearly hasn't been very effective in the search (it took six days to figure this out maybe). The transponder is the critical thing to take out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-13 22:21:50 and read 17509 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 398):
The flight was scheduled for a duration of 5hrs, 50 minutes; there would have been at least another hour of fuel on board most likely. So you're looking at almost 7 hours of flight duration - and the satellite data only lasts for five.

So I think it's quite possible. Once we have the last known satellite ping location, a new circle can be drawn from that location with a radius of around 900 miles...

Except no one knew about the sat pings until recently they can't exactly go back in time and change their behaviour now.

[Edited 2014-03-13 22:22:03]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2014-03-13 22:24:02 and read 17327 times.

Personally i am quite impressed that the US is happy to tell the world they get info from all Boeings and probably Airbuses that circle our globe. Because thats exactly what the info in WSJ says.
The satellites get info on location, heights etc but this is info MH isnt subscribing to not have access too. its alot more than a ping.

And after what Snowden has already revealed I dont think this comes as a surprise to anyone and its better if the computers that handle this now spend their time processing everything about this particular flight.

Personally I dont mind one bit and Im sure its more countries than the US in on that. I doubt the Europeans dont do the same with their Airbus planes. I bet China, Russia etc is listening very loud though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-13 22:24:09 and read 17335 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 395):

Good points. Why the gap in time between ACARS and transponder shutdowns if becoming invisible is the idea, especially when the transponder dial is right there?

Also, did the plane go off radar just after reaching cruising altitude? Is there any significance to that in light of what we are currently learning?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-13 22:24:39 and read 17380 times.

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 72):
And this same fire wouldn't create other faults that might generate an ACARS message prior to that system being disabled itself? The fire would have not allowed any radio transmissions, but the plane would have still been flyable for hours? Methinks not.

yeah

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 278):
QUICK INTRO....I have been a reader of Airliners.net for many years and now just signed up as a result of the extra ordinary circumstances in relation to MH370 which I have followed since day1...I am an ex QF longhaul F/A .. my period of employment by QF being 1989-2011

SO... here's my theory based on my knowledge and the 'confirmed' info given by the 'authorities' via the press conferences thus far given to the public...

one of the pilots incapacitated the other pilot..could be done quickly with the right tool, and believe it or not, some airlines allow their flight crew onto aircraft WITHOUT going thru pre flight sreening that pax go thru.. ie NO body/hand luggage screening of flight crew

this lone pilot now has complete control of aircraft..turning off 'systems' ..telling cabin crew via phone AND pax via inflight PA, that due to a 'problem' they need to return to KL.. AVOD must be shut down because of the 'problem'... inflight crew inform cabin crew that 'such and such' will be happening via handset..cabin crew believe what they are being told...no reason not to!!! and pax believe what the flight crew tell them too!!...all the more believable on a flight IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT

and I actually believe the 'turnback' and 'ping' heard by the military belongs to MH370 (the Malay military and authorites 'incompetence' is a WHOLE OTHER ISSUE)

I conclude that MH370 has been 'hijacked' by a suicidal flight crew member...and flown over the Indian Ocean and taken a quick dive into the ocean...no time for ANYONE (pax or crew) in the cabin to react...as they were told all is fine...in the DARK OF THE NIGHT they were just returning to KL to fix the 'problem'

now after day 6 I fear the depth and vastness of the Indian Ocean has 'swallowed' MH370 .....along with the fact that no one is searching that ocean

honestly, that makes probably the most sense out of all the theories i've come across.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: flyorski
Posted 2014-03-13 22:24:40 and read 17344 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 135):
Can't believe why the exact fuel figure has not yet been made public. That would at least give MAS and the SAR / authorities a maximum radius to consider.

It is possible they have no record of it. I do not know the specifics at MH, however with some airlines if the crew requests additional fuel they can get it with no record of how much is on-board at departure. The fuel provider records total gallons (or Liters), in order to bill the airline, yet the end pounds (or kilos) on board may be unknown.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-13 22:26:49 and read 18712 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue the discussion in part 22 which is available here:


MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks and regards,

SA7700


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