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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-14 12:47:24 and read 88640 times.

Due to length part 23 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 24.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

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**** SUMMARY PROVIDED BY MEMBER: rcair1 (Post 77 from thread 23) ****

First - synopsis
- The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing

- The last ACARS transmission was about 01:07 local. This does not mean ACARS was shut off - just that was the last transmission of ACARS data (See ACARS below)

- The last comms were a normal hand-off from Malaysia to Vietnam control at about 1:30 local

- It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.

- The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.

- There are some reports of a descent and turn based on primary radar. The descent was on the order of 3000 ft to 29,500.

- There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Straight.

- Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - we do not know that it is the accident a/c.

- We STILL do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns.

- We have 'reports' of SATCOM system pings for some hours after LOS (loss of signal)

- There is confusion (and argument) about the content of those pings and if those pings can provide location information (See SATCOM below)

- We have no ELT signal detected.


ACARS
- ACARS is an automated aircraft health management system that transmits a/c maintenance information to maintenance facilities like the airline, Boeing, Engine Manf, etc.

- ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight - it is a maintenance system

- ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.

- ACARS communicates via VHF or SATCOM (and maybe Wifi at the gate). The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.


ACARS data from MH370
- MH370 sent 2 ACARS (or rather Engine Health) reports to Rolls Royce. The last was approximately 1:07

- Rolls Royce's would have expected only 1 more transmission at landing - that was never received.

- NOTE: this fact is in dispute - some reports say a transmission every 20 minutes or so was expected - however I believe that to be incorrect.

- The fact that the last ACARS was sent some time before the transponder signal was loss does not mean ACARS was turned off at that time. ACARS transmissions on this ship are not continuous


SATCOM
- SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.

- SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.

- The last communication via SATCOM was the last ACARS message at 1:07


SATCOM Pings.
- The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites. These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here." They are often called "keep alive" signals.

- SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel.

- There are reports that SATCOM pings were heard for up to 4 or 5 hours into flight (or after LOS)

- NOTE: to those complaining it took to long to report this - remember the SATCOM pings are deep in the communications protocol and not what people would normally look at. How often do you look at the basic network traffic on your router?

- There is speculation that the SATCOM pings contain altitude, heading, speed. From a communications standpoint that does not make sense.

- I believe what is really happening is that experts in this system are trying to derive some location, speed, etc. information from the nature of the pings For instance, what satellites did they hit, when and how strong. Much like GPS, you may be able to derive information about location.


Way-point Tracks:
- There are reports and maps today of a track following way-points.

- The source (Radar? Satcom? Visual?) and veracity of this information is not confirmed.

- At this point I cannot state any factual data related other than it is being discussed in the press


Airworthiness Directive
- The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.

- The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna


Search Areas Based on this information - authorities are searching:
- Along the planed route

- West over the Malacca straight

- North west of Malacca straight

- Near the islands of Andaman and Nicobar. Indian a/c report nothing found in this area.

- Unconfirmed: in the Indian Ocean. Initial reports were the US was sending the KIDD there, but I believe those were wrong


Conspiracy Theories:
- There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.

- We have no data to support any of them.

- The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the 'government is hiding it' aspects

- It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.


Mobile phones
- We know that if any mobile phones were connected to the tower - we would have a location and would search there.

- We don't have any reports or evidence of that - so I conclude that it is not viable to consider.


We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.

- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.

- Complaints continue and will despite what any authority does till something happens.


We have had a lot of "false" sightings. I can not keep up.
- This is common and we need to investigate the credible ones. Most will be false.

- The Chinese Satellite data has not resulted in any findings.

- Indian aircraft have searched (some) near Andaman and Nicobar and nothing found


----------------------
In summary
We KNOW 4 things.
- The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.

- There is some evidence that it traveled west. But that evidence is not conclusive or sure.

- We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

- We have a better idea were it is NOT

**** SUMMARY PROVIDED BY MEMBER: rcair1 (Post 77 from thread 23) ****



Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-03-14 13:21:18]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-14 12:51:49 and read 88857 times.

The Malaysian Airforce had initially indicated catching something flying to the west on its radar. Does that check with the satellite ping locations that was in the westerly direction? It should shouldn't it? If in fact the Malaysian Air Force's radar return is MH 370, then the track should fall right on the line between two pings. Won't it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: strandedinbgm
Posted 2014-03-14 12:52:44 and read 88591 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 1):
If in fact the Malaysian Air Force's radar return is MH 370, then the track should fall right on the line between two pings. Won't it?

I should think so.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-14 12:53:51 and read 88676 times.

Since my post in the last thread was after the thread lock, I'll repost it here:

Quoting davidzill (Reply 249):
I brought up the gradually progressing fire making its way to the avionics bay, combined with the loss of systems, oil rig worker observing burning plane, a recently reported sea flor event near where the "burning plane" was observed, and subsequent Chinese satellite photos of possible debris.

Only one witness said he saw something that he thought *might* have been MH370 - at night, from far away. The Chinese satellite photos have already been debunked, although the area was re-searched (for something like the third or fourth time) anyway, apparently just to satisfy everyone who saw those photos.

The progressive fire scenario requires way too many implausible jumps in logic. A plane that can apparently withstand a continuously burning fire for hours. Pilots that are fine signing off from one controller, but too incapacitated literally the very next moment to squawk 7600 - after their comms go out at the very same time. An autopilot that apparently continued to work throughout, *or* pilots that were so incompetent that they did not attempt a landing or even a descent despite a burning fire that had already knocked out their comms and transponder. Planes can fly for a time on their own if trimmed properly without autopilot, but not forever as they burn fuel and get lighter, and not through changing weather conditions. So for 4 hours of flight, you'd have to assume someone or something was controlling the plane, even though no attempts at comm were made and all other systems were seemingly knocked out by this 4 hour fire.

This scenario is so far-fetched that *it* sounds like the conspiracy theory at this point.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 250):
The SOP for this sort of thing is clearly not working., so if "Us offcials" are going to say anything to anyone, then give us a leader and give us scheduled press conferences that are US-led.

It's not our place to do that. Imagine if there was a plane crash in Iowa and when our investigation stalled, Russia instead just started holding press conferences about it and announcing their findings. How offensive would that be?

The US strategy right now seems obvious: conduct a shadow investigation, leak pertinent info to the press. That way they make it appear that the Malaysians are controlling the SAR and investigation, but the stuff the US wants to get out to the public, gets out to the public.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-14 12:58:08 and read 88199 times.

Repost after thread lock.

Quoting imatams (Reply 274):
Have you been watching 'Contact'? (the Jodie Foster SF film)

I actually thought of using our best radio telescopes - like those in Jodrell Banks, Arecibo and the Very Large Array - to record all signals from MH370 as they are reflected from other planets.

Well.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 278):

And, do you have the numbers of these Airbus Pinto fuel tank explosions?


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 13:02:08 and read 87894 times.

Just as I though before it was inmarsat that saw what quite literally where pings from the satcom modem. (Not Boeing as some articles mention) although they don't quite reveal how long/where the plane was during the "routine and automatic" transmissions.

http://www.inmarsat.com/news/inmarsa...nt-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: seat55a
Posted 2014-03-14 13:08:35 and read 87374 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 5):
although they don't quite reveal how long/where the plane was during the "routine and automatic" transmissions.

According to the Inmarsat interview in the NY Times, the location has to be calculated by triangulation. That wouldn't be very precise but would direct to east or west of KUL. You can probably put this together with the claims in the WSJ and say "several hours flying westward."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: lgbga
Posted 2014-03-14 13:09:06 and read 87388 times.

So please don't jump on me if it's been mentioned and for posting a conspiracy theory (not saying it's true) but has anyone else read the info about Jacob Rothschild, Freescale, and a newly acquired patent circulating around?
  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 13:10:13 and read 87133 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
The progressive fire scenario requires way too many implausible jumps in logic. A plane that can apparently withstand a continuously burning fire for hours. Pilots that are fine signing off from one controller, but too incapacitated literally the very next moment to squawk 7600 - after their comms go out at the very same time. An autopilot that apparently continued to work throughout, *or* pilots that were so incompetent that they did not attempt a landing or even a descent despite a burning fire that had already knocked out their comms and transponder. Planes can fly for a time on their own if trimmed properly without autopilot, but not forever as they burn fuel and get lighter, and not through changing weather conditions. So for 4 hours of flight, you'd have to assume someone or something was controlling the plane, even though no attempts at comm were made and all other systems were seemingly knocked out by this 4 hour fire.

This scenario is so far-fetched that *it* sounds like the conspiracy theory at this point.

What theory is more probable depends on confirmation and total switching of the search zones. If the radar and satcom data doesn't prove the plane was on the other side of the country which hasn't been officially confirmed then a fire is far more probable. If the satcom data does directly correlate with multiple primary radar tracks and it follows a very specific route then a hijack or non-fire is far more plausible. We will have to wait till there is confirmation which will come in the form of stopping the search in one area or the other.

Also in my opinion I highly doubt a plane with halon or other inert gas system (even de-pressurization can't stop a class D fire) short of a foam or sand based system could stop a class D metal fire from undeclared checked cargo.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-14 13:12:41 and read 86941 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 5):
Just as I though before it was inmarsat that saw what quite literally where pings from the satcom modem. (Not Boeing as some articles mention) although they don't quite reveal how long/where the plane was during the "routine and automatic" transmissions.

This removes any doubts about the identity of those signals/pings. As all of this new info was coming along, I was taking the ping information with a grain of salt as well. However, now it is for certain that it was MH 370 as corroborated by INMARSAT themselves. This makes me much more comfortable with the westward flightpath hypothesis.

[Edited 2014-03-14 13:13:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 13:13:20 and read 86926 times.

Quoting seat55a (Reply 6):

Inmarsat uses geostationary satellites with either global beams or spot beams the global beam would provide very poor positioning information but is only for slow data. The spot beams would provide a general area without even needing triangulation as the constellation doesn't require multiple satellites to work.

Example coverage map, http://www.inmarsat.com/service/swiftbroadband-iga/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 13:13:43 and read 86902 times.

Quoting seat55a (Reply 6):
the location has to be calculated by triangulation.

If three separate satellites heard them, that is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-14 13:16:03 and read 86472 times.

Did they find anything from searching the cockpit crew's home? I didn't recall any follow up on that front.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-14 13:16:58 and read 86492 times.

From the previous thread:

Quote:
CO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 273, posted Fri Mar 14 2014 20:24:22 your local time (34 minutes 9 secs ago) and read 5322 times:

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 267):
The very fact that we can't even agree on the factuality of what is presumably the last word heard from the plane (it was discussed early in theese threads, but how do you find something in here anymore?) makes a separate thread:

How unbelievably frustrating!

I have been scouring Google but cannot find any story about the "mumbling" being debunked, whereas the description of the last contact with the plane, with the "mumbling and static," is still in every major news story up to and including the present.

It is frustrating - oh yes!

So, I was reading back into the first 8 parts of this thread and tried to search the old goggle...

- I am not the only one who remembers that this was debunked (at a press conference, I presume). From thread #6:

Quote:
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9398 posts, RR: 42
Reply 108, posted Sun Mar 9 2014 16:58:19 your local time (5 days 3 hours 22 minutes ago) and read 73517 times:

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 103):
As stated before a pilot said he was in contact with the pilot at 1:30am

And that has been dismissed as untrue.

The story actually is still in many news reports. But no more than what was said in the initial NST-article. No name, further information or statements. And, what gives me hope for the state of my memory, it's not in Avherald, which I'd consider the most reliable source on that matter:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

Quote:
Rumours like other crew establishing contact to the accident flight after radar contact was lost, phone contact to a mobile phone of one the passengers of the missing flight or the aircraft having landed in China or Vietnam, are false.

That's what we've got.

[Edited 2014-03-14 13:18:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-14 13:18:32 and read 86297 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 1):
If in fact the Malaysian Air Force's radar return is MH 370, then the track should fall right on the line between two pings. Won't it?

Yeah that would make some sense route wise (blue line):

http://i.imgur.com/PwuVqzb.png

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-14 13:19:46 and read 86317 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 9):
This makes me much more comfortable with the westward flightpath hypothesis.

Need to make a correction. The INMARSTAT makes me much more comfortable with the fact that the plane was in flight for 5 some hours beyond radar drop-off. This should eliminate the catastrophic event theory when taken together with the ACARS and transponder shutdowns.

We are still not confident about the location nor 100% sure of the westward path; although it appears that westward path was likely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-14 13:20:27 and read 86079 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
This scenario is so far-fetched that *it* sounds like the conspiracy theory at this point.

TWA800 -- central fuel tank explosion. Did they have any time to squawk anything to anyone ??

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy at all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 13:21:03 and read 86082 times.

I'm sure all of the possible airfields have been checked out by now? That would quickly rule out landing somewhere. Does the ground crew keep a copy of the load sheet with fuel on board? But gee, this still just doesn't eliminate the theory of a landing, they could have landed for a quick refuel and unloading of passengers and cargo. This is such an unprecedented aviation mystery. In time with patience, intelligence assets will profile each and every passenger and crew member. I think if this is a human-factored sabotage or hijacking, it may end up being the most unsuspecting passengers or crew as the root cause. The U.S.S. Kidd should be arriving in the Indian Ocean about now, let's see what they come up with.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2014-03-14 13:22:37 and read 85836 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
It's not our place to do that. Imagine if there was a plane crash in Iowa and when our investigation stalled, Russia instead just started holding press conferences about it and announcing their findings. How offensive would that be?

So to be clear, you are suggesting that not offending the local bureaucrats is a higher priority than conducting the most effective search, rescue, and recovery.

Another thing. Malaysia isn't the United States and the United States isn't Russia. If it offends the Malaysians that we have far more resources and capabilities to conduct a search, then who honestly cares?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: OURBOEING
Posted 2014-03-14 13:24:35 and read 85613 times.

Do you think that any of the suspected landing strips/spots in those islands would have the length to handle a 772?

I am also hoping as everyone else for a positive outcome but am not too optimistic if you factor all the scenarios.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-14 13:25:33 and read 85619 times.

Forgive my ignorance on the capabilities of the B777, but as may have been mentioned before, does this aircraft come with a system that automatically transmits data indicating that it has crashed?

If so, could that transmission ability be manipulated manually by someone on board?

I find it hard to believe that someone would do all this to crash an airplane and be silent about it. I'm certain that, above all, the perpetrator (if indeed it was comandeered) would be proud of himself and want to leave some sort of signature that was found...my two cents.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 13:25:59 and read 85564 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 15):
This should eliminate the catastrophic event theory when taken together with the ACARS and transponder shutdowns.

I believe it has not been established that ACARS shut down.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-14 13:26:43 and read 85401 times.

Regarding the Plane Following Navigation Way Points.

If you assume the pilots had cascading electrical failiures (comm.trans..etc), Things would have gotten very busy.
While trying to diagnose the problem, They could have placed the A/C on autopilot. and
set a preliminary navigation route, never intending to have it fully executed, since they assume
they would take control of the A/C when it was closer to Malasia. Before they got close to the coast.
the electrical problem became a FIRE problem. Now the pilots would be busy fighting this fire, and
in the smoke and confusion, they did not have the luxury of putting new navigtation instructions into the
flight computer before they were overwhelmed. The A/C could have kept flying for a long time before
Auto Pilot malfunctioned.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-14 13:28:28 and read 85148 times.

I asked before, but I didn't see answers. (Maybe because of the very long thread, but I anyway I'll try to be more clear)

What is the likehood of a non-777 pilot could have landed at night in a non-standard airport with transponders OFF?
(In order to discard the scenario of one pilot doing so, and also incapacitating his colleague)


On the other hand, thinking about the worst (not because I like but because I think it's necessary).
Which secret/hidden airports/airstrips which could hold a 777 for landing and taking off could be nearer places where nuclear weapons could be taken to?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-14 13:30:36 and read 84954 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
If it offends the Malaysians that we have far more resources and capabilities to conduct a search, then who honestly cares?

Yes, but if you keep looking in the wrong place then you're waisting your resources. More importantly, the FDR locating pingers will stop working soon.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 13:31:01 and read 86504 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 23):
Which secret/hidden airports/airstrips which could hold a 777 for landing and taking off could be nearer places where nuclear weapons could be taken to?

If we knew that they wouldn't be secret/hidden.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: seat55a
Posted 2014-03-14 13:33:03 and read 86456 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 10):
The spot beams would provide a general area without even needing triangulation as the constellation doesn't require multiple satellites to work.

So if I understand correctly you ONLY get the general area and triangulation isn't even available, because the transmission is aimed and only one satellite gets it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: blueshamu330s
Posted 2014-03-14 13:34:12 and read 88812 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 23):
What is the likehood of a non-777 pilot could have landed at night in a non-standard airport with transponders OFF?

Whether the Transponder was on or off makes zero difference to the pilot's ability to fly the thing.

Rgds

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-14 13:34:25 and read 88751 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 16):
TWA800 -- central fuel tank explosion. Did they have any time to squawk anything to anyone ??

Yes, but debris were found as logical consequence of that explosion. Here communication stopped, but no debris at the place where it stopped and not around in proximity.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-14 13:35:44 and read 89053 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 23):
What is the likehood of a non-777 pilot could have landed at night in a non-standard airport with transponders OFF?

What are the chances of a non 777 pilot making it into the cockpit after 9/11 ?

How about very slim. You're more likely going to have one of the pilots hijacking the flight to seek asylum in places like Burma.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 13:40:33 and read 87775 times.

Quoting seat55a (Reply 26):

Based on Inmarsat's website normally only one sat serves a large area (depending on the service) and the aiming is static as the sat basically sits locked with earth's rotation (geostationary) so in essence each beam, even the global large beams act like cell towers (fixed position/range) where the easy position info is basically whatever is within the range of the beam it is on.

If there is location data in the check in packets or if some network/signal math can be done to narrow it down more I'm not sure. Technically the spot beams overlap and if you look at the signal strengths of multiple fixed beams you could narrow down the position with just one sat. (Sounds sort of like triangulation but I don't know if that is possible or not)

The fastest/easily available info to inmarsat would not rely on triangulation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 13:40:34 and read 87948 times.

What a bizarre case...

I suppose it could even be a plane flying a route programmed by a hijacker, before he committed suicide?

What if one of the pilots killed the other pilot in the cockpit, locked the door, programmed the route, and then killed himself? Would anyone ever get into the cockpit?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: RJAF
Posted 2014-03-14 13:40:59 and read 87700 times.

It would be great to know how much SAR capabilities have advanced (mainly in terms of high tech etc..)since the AF447 loss in 2009?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 13:41:47 and read 87743 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 29):
What are the chances of a non 777 pilot making it into the cockpit after 9/11 ?

How about very slim. You're more likely going to have one of the pilots hijacking the flight to seek asylum in places like Burma.

What if the crew had a habit of relaxing cockpit security and inviting passengers in?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-14 13:41:57 and read 87861 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 28):
Yes, but debris were found as logical consequence of that explosion. Here communication stopped, but no debris at the place where it stopped and not around in proximity

Because TWA800 blew up into two pieces. Lots of debris ended up spilling into the sea. If the explosion was less powerful and the plane remained intact the debris field would be much smaller.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: GipperPDX
Posted 2014-03-14 13:42:49 and read 87612 times.

I dont understand folks saying that pilot suciide makes no sense because of the extra hours of flight towards the Indian Ocean. Seems to me there are several possible rationales for such an action by a suicidal crewmember, including, but not limited to:

1. Life insurance. Policies don't pay on suicides, for obvious reasons. So, hiding the wreckage / CVR / FDR and thus hiding proof of suicide would allow policy to be paid out to beneiciaries. If the intent was to hide the wreckage, he certainly has done a good job so far,

2. Last Hurrah. A suicidal pilot may well wish to take a joyride before ending it all. As others have said, he might wish to try out some maneuvers at the edge of the envelope.

3. Wacko. Any such suicide is obvioulsy also a mass murder. Mass murderers can and do try to play games and mock investigators (look how "smart" I am by hiding the wreckage)!

None of this means it definitely WAS suicide - there are numerous possible causes and we won't know for some time - but I did want to point out that suicide remains a viable possibility.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-14 13:44:34 and read 87125 times.

So were they (whoever they are) after the pane or what was on the plane ? We haven't heard a peep about cargo, just a few rumors.

If the target was cargo or people then the choice of flights was not predicated on who the pilots were. In other words, the pilots are not suspect.

If the target was the plane when the pilot was on a certain route, then it is something that could have been set up for many months. The pilots are suspect.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-14 13:44:45 and read 87461 times.

The ocean is vast. My skepticism tells me that this thing hit the Indian Ocean last week. By now, unfortunately, parts of the airframe are like finding the pieces of shredded paper in a single bag of confetti thrown out the window of a NYC highrise and trying to look for them a week later.

Too much time was lost in the critical hours of this investigation. Too much time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-14 13:45:54 and read 87433 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 33):
What if the crew had a habit of relaxing cockpit security and inviting passengers in?

On a night flight with a bunch of Chinese ??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-14 13:46:09 and read 86924 times.

Quoting GipperPDX (Reply 35):
dont understand folks saying that pilot suciide makes no sense because of the extra hours of flight towards the Indian Ocean. Seems to me there are several possible rationales for such an action by a suicidal crewmember, including, but not limited to:

1. Life insurance. Policies don't pay on suicides, for obvious reasons. So, hiding the wreckage / CVR / FDR and thus hiding proof of suicide would allow policy to be paid out to beneiciaries. If the intent was to hide the wreckage, he certainly has done a good job so far,

2. Last Hurrah. A suicidal pilot may well wish to take a joyride before ending it all. As others have said, he might wish to try out some maneuvers at the edge of the envelope.

3. Wacko. Any such suicide is obvioulsy also a mass murder. Mass murderers can and do try to play games and mock investigators (look how "smart" I am by hiding the wreckage)!

None of this means it definitely WAS suicide - there are numerous possible causes and we won't know for some time - but I did want to point out that suicide remains a viable possibility.

This is why the home of the flight crew needs to be searched and family members interviewed to the extent allowed by law. In the event it was just an accident, all that will come to naught; but if foul play by the crew was the cause, then this information will be pivotal.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 13:46:10 and read 86846 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 31):

If your asking if the stronger door can't be breached I'm sure with enough time/effort it could be as it was just hardened to increase the security rating as no door can be unbreakable. If people had hours to get past it then it is likely to fail at some point (physics has ways, and materials have limits).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: huxrules
Posted 2014-03-14 13:48:03 and read 86179 times.

Is there a way to determine if a 777 landed at IXZ. It looks like it was headed directly for it. With it's six wheeled bogeys it might make a different skid mark? Possibly to refuel in the dark?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 13:49:40 and read 86094 times.

A background of the Egypt air pilot showed he was being investigated for rape of a hotel employee and had several mistresses. His world appeared to be crumbling from underneath him.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: kmot
Posted 2014-03-14 13:50:50 and read 85433 times.

These threads are moving so quickly. Can someone give an updated with what we know... what we think... and so on?

Thanks

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: enilria
Posted 2014-03-14 13:53:23 and read 85081 times.

Quoting GipperPDX (Reply 35):

I dont understand folks saying that pilot suciide makes no sense because of the extra hours of flight towards the Indian Ocean. Seems to me there are several possible rationales for such an action by a suicidal crewmember, including, but not limited to:

Pilot suicide makes no sense to me and he seemed pretty upstanding. To me it has to be terrorist related. It makes no sense to try to kill everybody and hide the crash site. I don't think that makes any sense. I see it as one of the following.

Plane is hijacked and terrorist tells pilot to turn West...
1) Crew/passengers eventually attack hijacker and plane crashes in the process
2) Crew/passengers attack hijacker and he explodes bomb
3) The hijack was successful and the plane landed at an undisclosed location
4) Terrorists want the airplane to use as a weapon later and found somewhere to land it and execute the passengers

Most likely...the Malaysians are clueless and the plane is exactly where it is supposed to be at the bottom of the sea.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 13:53:40 and read 85101 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 38):
On a night flight with a bunch of Chinese ??

What does "Chinese" have to do with anything?

I have always wanted to see the view from the cockpit of an airliner at night.

Besides, we'd be talking about a hijacker posing as someone who wanted to see the cockpit, and a crew member known for allowing visits to happen.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: fortunerunnner
Posted 2014-03-14 13:54:51 and read 84820 times.

Quoting huxrules (Reply 41):
Is there a way to determine if a 777 landed at IXZ. It looks like it was headed directly for it. With it's six wheeled bogeys it might make a different skid mark? Possibly to refuel in the dark?

Zero or quit low possibility of landing in Port Blair, the airport as well as area around Andaman & Nicobars is controlled by Indian Defense forces and has 24x7 monitoring by Indians due to sensitive nature of it. They are afraid of Chinese incursions and surveillance activity and has all kinds of Navel and Airforce strategic assets located on those islands.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: wilcal
Posted 2014-03-14 13:55:09 and read 84629 times.

Quoting kmot (Reply 43):

You miss the first post of this thread?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 13:55:27 and read 84614 times.

Quoting kmot (Reply 43):
These threads are moving so quickly. Can someone give an updated with what we know... what we think... and so on?

Thanks

There is a nice summary in post one of this thread. Thanx mods for posting that.

TL;DR - No new hard data. It is widely suspected the satellite link was still alive for 4-5 hours after the plane disappeared (ie transponder shut off). There is sporadic primary radars returns of interest, but no hard conclusions can be made from the data.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Hywel
Posted 2014-03-14 13:55:52 and read 84745 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 45):
What does "Chinese" have to do with anything?

The fact that some Malay people don't like the Chinese (just look at the way they treat Chinese Malay people in Malaysia itself)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-14 13:56:31 and read 84241 times.

Quoting kmot (Reply 43):
These threads are moving so quickly. Can someone give an updated with what we know... what we think... and so on?

Check the thread starter there's a summary

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 13:58:38 and read 83935 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 49):

But there were 75 non-Chinese on board, and who knows how many people with false ID's?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-14 13:59:29 and read 83806 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):

I believe it has not been established that ACARS shut down.

What?!? Unless I missed something, didn't the WSJ report establish the ACARS (data transmission) was shutdown at 1:07am and then 14 mins later the transponder at 1:21am?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 13:59:51 and read 84042 times.

Runway 29, IXC, the aircraft was on a course to intercept a final approach course for the runway. The airport does not have published procedures, and is probably a day/VFR field, and it has refueling capabilities (80, Jet A, 100). I'm sure it has been checked out already.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 764
Posted 2014-03-14 14:00:55 and read 83679 times.

This might be completely insane, but I wanted to throw it out there anyway. As we all know, one reported theory puts the aircraft near Pulau Perak. Is it at all possible that something was lost in reporting/translation and we are not actually talking about an island? I am just wondering because there is another Pulau Perak on the mainland. More intriguingly, had the aircraft attempted a return to Kuala Lumpur (for whatever reason), it would make perfect sense to come near that location. It is a little north of the shortest path, but not by much.

Now I am entirely unfamiliar with the area, but it appears relatively rural and certainly mountainous. Considering they were flying at night and obviously had some issues, undetected controlled flight into terrain might not seem too unlikely. Maybe geography and/or vegetation might conceal wreckage. SATCOM might have remained intact and eventually run out of power or failed.

Again, I don't know the local conditions, so please let me know if I am completely crazy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: z3jj
Posted 2014-03-14 14:03:22 and read 83243 times.

One thing I am wondering about. PIC being the airplane enthusiast that he was, what is his username on airliners.net

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:05:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 14:04:18 and read 82688 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 52):
didn't the WSJ report establish the ACARS (data transmission) was shutdown at 1:07am

That was the time of the last transmission. See the summary/sanity check in the OP of this part.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-14 14:04:54 and read 83067 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 45):
What does "Chinese" have to do with anything?

Those girls posing with the FO were good looking Australians, right, not brick layers ?

You're thinking along the line of spotters hitching a ride in the jump seat.

Most of those hijacking terrorists have never been in a plane before. They wouldn't know what's possible and how to manipulate the flight crew to get access to the cockpit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 14:04:58 and read 82747 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 52):
What?!? Unless I missed something, didn't the WSJ report establish the ACARS (data transmission) was shutdown at 1:07am and then 14 mins later the transponder at 1:21am?

The WSJ also earlier established they had engine data for hours (later retracted). I have not seen official confirmation from another source that the ACARS was disconnected earlier. It was confirmed the last transmission was sent at 1:07am.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-14 14:05:25 and read 83459 times.

Breaking @ NYT:

According to Malaysian military radar (presumably now interpreted by the US and China), just after the transponder disappeared the aircraft apparently climbed to 45,000 ft while banking to the west, then lost altitude and crossed the peninsula erratically at 23,000, then regained altitude as it went out over the Indian Ocean.

Whatttttt......


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/wo.../asia/malaysia-military-radar.html

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:06:58]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-14 14:06:03 and read 82782 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 53):
Runway 29, IXC, the aircraft was on a course to intercept a final approach course for the runway

I think you mean IXZ (Veer Savarkar International Airport) at the Andamans?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 14:06:38 and read 82939 times.

The aircraft is at the bottom of the sea, no one has any idea where to look, black boxes will stop transmitting after a month, and it will take YEARS to find it, if we ever do.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 14:06:52 and read 82545 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 30):
Technically the spot beams overlap and if you look at the signal strengths of multiple fixed beams you could narrow down the position with just one sat. (Sounds sort of like triangulation but I don't know if that is possible or not)

Given many things I am not intimately familiar with, I cannot speak specifically with respect to the Inmarsat (or other GEO) systems, but in general, if you have two receivers, you can narrow an item down to two locations. Deductive reasoning or just getting out and looking would be required to further ascertain position, but two locations is a hell of a lot better than wild-ass-guessing it, or having a single receiver that could only detect range.

So to sum up:

1 receiver = range circle
2 receivers = narrow down to two points
3 receivers (or preferably more) = triangulate

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: huxrules
Posted 2014-03-14 14:08:43 and read 82423 times.

Looking at that runway at IXC. It's plenty long you could land a 777 there do a hot fuel up and take off again without getting near the terminals. You would need help of course. Of course there is the noise and the impossibility of it all. And if that doesn't sound like a Clancy book you would be right - I think Dan Brown had a B-52 steal kerosene from the Russians in one of his books! Oh and it thought of a way you could tell if a 777 landed there- just measure the width of the skid marks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-14 14:09:20 and read 82160 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 56):

That was the time of the last transmission. See the summary/sanity check in the OP of this part.

I see, it is nuanced. ACARS stopped rather than "shut down." To me "shut down" has a human action aspect for some reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 14:09:49 and read 82195 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 61):

The aircraft is at the bottom of the sea, no one has any idea where to look, black boxes will stop transmitting after a month, and it will take YEARS to find it, if we ever do.

If it's in the Sunda Trench, we may never find it. If we do, pressure may take its toll.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-14 14:09:53 and read 82143 times.

Quoting RJAF (Reply 32):
It would be great to know how much SAR capabilities have advanced (mainly in terms of high tech etc..)since the AF447 loss in 2009?

There are no advancements in deep sea SAR capability. Research vessels have some search capabilities with ROVs. Some navies can search little deeper. After that you are totally dependent on oil drilling companies. They have ROVs and equipment to operate almost at any depth.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 53):
Runway 29, IXC, the aircraft was on a course to intercept a final approach course for the runway. The airport does not have published procedures, and is probably a day/VFR field, and it has refueling capabilities (80, Jet A, 100). I'm sure it has been checked out already.

Couple of minor issues. IXC has Indian Navy, Air Force, Army and Coast Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andaman_and_Nicobar_Command

It also has low level target detection capability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Doppler_Radar

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:22:54]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 14:10:01 and read 81985 times.

Sorry, IXZ is what I meant.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-14 14:10:35 and read 82198 times.

About the stuff that is slated to be published tomorrow by the New Straits Times...

I've read here that both the Straits Times (of SIN) and the New Straits Times (of KUL) are both quite respected newspapers.

And if the NST has any compassion with the relatives of the MH370 passengers I do not expect them to publish cheap stuff. It's also obvious that they can't publish the first images of the wreckage, because these would have surfaced on the WWW much quicker.

Leaks is the word here, IMHO. I believe they're sitting on stuff only an official/investigator can know.



David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: EXMEMWIDGET
Posted 2014-03-14 14:12:38 and read 81590 times.

Good article to read about how hard it is to find planes lost at sea.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/s...ng-mh370-flight-conspiracies-aattp

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: fortunerunnner
Posted 2014-03-14 14:13:27 and read 81532 times.

Quoting huxrules (Reply 63):
Looking at that runway at IXC. It's plenty long you could land a 777 there do a hot fuel up and take off again without getting near the terminals. You would need help of course. Of course there is the noise and the impossibility of it all. And if that doesn't sound like a Clancy book you would be right - I think Dan Brown had a B-52 steal kerosene from the Russians in one of his books! Oh and it thought of a way you could tell if a 777 landed there- just measure the width of the skid marks.

But how can it be done without involvement of Indian Military. All of Andaman & Nicobars are constantly under surveillance and controlled by joint command of India's Navel, Air and Cost Guard forces.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 14:13:53 and read 81791 times.

It's beginning to sound a bit like a wild goose chase...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/wo.../asia/malaysia-military-radar.html

Quote:

SEPANG, Malaysia — Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 experienced significant changes in altitude after it lost contact with ground control, and altered its course more than once as if still under the command of a pilot, American officials and others familiar with the investigation said Friday.

Radar signals recorded by the Malaysian military appear to show the missing airliner climbing to 45,000 feet, above the approved altitude limit for a Boeing 777-200, soon after it disappeared from civilian radar and made a sharp turn to the west, according to a preliminary assessment by a person familiar with the data.

The radar track, which the Malaysian government has not released but says it has provided to the United States and China, then shows the plane descending unevenly to an altitude of 23,000 feet, below normal cruising levels, as it approached the densely populated island of Penang, one of the country’s largest. There, the plane turned from a southwest-bound course, climbed to a higher altitude and flew northwest over the Strait of Malacca toward the Indian Ocean.

Investigators have also examined data transmitted from the plane’s Rolls-Royce engines that shows it descending 40,000 feet in the space of a minute, according to a senior American official briefed on the investigation. But investigators do not believe the readings are accurate because the aircraft would likely haven taken longer to fall such a distance.

“A lot of stock cannot be put in the altitude data” sent from the engines, one official said. “A lot of this doesn’t make sense.”


[Edited 2014-03-14 14:14:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-14 14:14:37 and read 81209 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 59):

According to Malaysian military radar (presumably now interpreted by the US and China), just after the transponder disappeared the aircraft apparently climbed to 45,000 ft while banking to the west, then lost altitude and crossed the peninsula erratically at 23,000, then regained altitude as it went out over the Indian Ocean.

Whatttttt......

OK it is "preliminary assessment of data." We know where some initial analyses usually lead. How can frame integrity be maintained at 45000? The pressure difference between inside and outside will be huge.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: norm1153
Posted 2014-03-14 14:14:47 and read 81187 times.

While I have skipped some of the posts in this topic, I'd like to mention this thought. Apologies if it's already been covered. The pilot's simulator at his home does not have to have been exclusively used by him; that is, has he had any visitors over the last few months?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-14 14:14:54 and read 81647 times.

NYT reports of sharp changes in altitude and heading after lost contact. Was there fight on the deck?
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/wo.../asia/malaysia-military-radar.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PhilV
Posted 2014-03-14 14:14:55 and read 81400 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 101):
Primary radar pings west of Malaysia with no transponder response make total sense. The plane is flying like a commercial airliner over standard routes but with a failed transponder. ATC does not see it, military probably think it is a civilian aircraft with a problem and ignore it.




Thats interestesting. Maybe someone brought it up before. But.
There was, as everyday, a big wave of flights towards Europe at this time. Maybe MH370 was flying deliberately those routes/airways. So, it wasn't suspicious for military radar? Thoughts?

Just an idea of what could have happend in this unprecedented speculation.

Cheers..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Sligo
Posted 2014-03-14 14:15:44 and read 81178 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
It's not our place to do that. Imagine if there was a plane crash in Iowa and when our investigation stalled, Russia instead just started holding press conferences about it and announcing their findings. How offensive would that be?


Understood, but a sincere question for you. How long does the SAR and the comm have to be off the rails before the US (due to being in the top 5 of countries w/an interest in the invest.) or the int'l community steps in?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 14:16:19 and read 80987 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 72):
OK it is "preliminary assessment of data." We know where some initial analyses usually lead. How can frame integrity be maintained at 45000? The pressure difference between inside and outside will be huge.

Not too far off it's certified ceiling of 43100, so it's probably fine.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: GipperPDX
Posted 2014-03-14 14:17:05 and read 80979 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
Pilot suicide makes no sense to me and he seemed pretty upstanding

1. There were two pilots.
2. Plenty of seemingly normal / upstanding people commit suicide.

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
To me it has to be terrorist related. It makes no sense to try to kill everybody and hide the crash site. I don't think that makes any sense.

It would make plenty of sense if you want your loved ones to collect on your life insurance, wouldn't it? No evidence of suicide, they get paid. Evidence of suicide via the FDR and CVR, they do not.

I'm certainly not ruling out third party terrorism or really any other possible scenario. Just confused why anyone would rule out suicide.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 14:17:42 and read 80708 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 52):
What?!? Unless I missed something, didn't the WSJ report establish the ACARS (data transmission) was shutdown at 1:07am and then 14 mins later the transponder at 1:21am?

Part of the problem is that ACARS doesn't provide a constant data stream and is only expected to transmit on events or periodically. Unless the WSJ has a message that says ACARS was turned off there isn't much to discern from there being no ACARS transmissions. Also based on the fact those same articles have gone from Rolls Royce engine data to an un-subscribed Boeing data saying it is ready to what is likely true and confirmed to be inmarsat network registration pings (literally I think). (What hasn't been confirmed is how long or where they think the modem was).

I don't think the time difference between last ACARS and transponder failure is significant especially that time difference thing unless there is something unpublished to the contrary. (Which makes those article make no sense)

The confirmation of the satcom modem's estimated position and length of operation is far more important.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-14 14:18:25 and read 80802 times.

Per the NYT article above (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world/asia/malaysia-military-radar.html)

I won't say the NYT has never been wrong, but they are the most respected newspaper yet to break any info on this story. If they say radar shows 45,000 ft I think we can be almost certain the plane reached 45,000.

Service ceiling is 43,100, so they busted through that. This is getting harder and harder to attribute to mechanical failure. What could happen that simultaneously knocks out ACARS, VHF, transponder, commands or causes to be commanded a climb to 45,000, then a bank to the left, then a resting altitude of 23,000....then another ascent, an hour or so later?

If the plane is changing altitude again after it crosses into the Straits, it HAS to be under command of a pilot, no?

I hate to say it, as I have tried to resist speculation...but if you depress the cabin and then gain altitude just to make sure everyone's hypoxic...drop to a lower altitude to avoid traffic crossing the peninsula...ascend again for range and hypoxia...

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:20:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CO953
Posted 2014-03-14 14:18:51 and read 80433 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 72):
OK it is "preliminary assessment of data." We know where some initial analyses usually lead. How can frame integrity be maintained at 45000? The pressure difference between inside and outside will be huge.

Depending on the internal pressure.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 14:18:58 and read 80713 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 59):
According to Malaysian military radar (presumably now interpreted by the US and China), just after the transponder disappeared the aircraft apparently climbed to 45,000 ft while banking to the west, then lost altitude and crossed the peninsula erratically at 23,000, then regained altitude as it went out over the Indian Ocean.

Whatttttt......


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/wo....html

Quite interesting. They claim to have some detail from the radar and they also claim to be matching that data from RR Engine data.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 14:19:44 and read 80888 times.

Could the 45K be to rapidly kill everyone with a depressurization?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-14 14:20:57 and read 80725 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 72):
How can frame integrity be maintained at 45000? The pressure difference between inside and outside will be huge.

No problem. In aviation, the safety margin is always large. If I flew at 45000, I would rather care about engines overheating and flaming out, like in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701 .


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-14 14:22:15 and read 80113 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 83):
Could the 45K be to rapidly kill everyone with a depressurization?

The problem I've had with the intentional hypoxia theories is that it might not kill them. If I understand correctly on Helios the passengers were out, but not necessarily dead; the Greek F-16s saw people moving around inside.

And when you drop down to a lower altitude, people start to wake up.

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:22:46]

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:23:02]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: blueheronNC
Posted 2014-03-14 14:23:28 and read 79987 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
4) Terrorists want the airplane to use as a weapon later and found somewhere to land it and execute the passengers

Variation on 4 - this hold the passengers until after they've committed a terrorist act with the plane, and then release the passengers no worse for wear. That would show "benevolence" and it not being about people in that region.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-14 14:23:34 and read 79839 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 25):

Well I don't believe an actually hidden/unknown airstrip may serve T7 to land and take off. I meant by that an airport/runway that could be secretly used for that. (i.e: closed airport, local airport not working at night, etc.)
Let's say, the opposite of a standard airport with night schedule whose ATC would ask the T7 when seeing it arriving, "hey boy, are you lost, where do you come from?"

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: difrano789
Posted 2014-03-14 14:23:36 and read 79987 times.

My small meteor theory is fitting better and better this case. And yes the plane is at the bottom of indian ocean and we may never find it..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Shanwick1011Z
Posted 2014-03-14 14:24:23 and read 79686 times.

A thought has been running through my head for some time!

Could the captain have been training any one or two passengers on that aircraft on his home flight simulator?

Could they since have been getting hands-on experience?

Too fanciful?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 14:24:37 and read 79369 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 82):
They claim to have some detail from the radar and they also claim to be matching that data from RR Engine data.

Which, if true, means ACARS was still operating past 1:07am.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: blueheronNC
Posted 2014-03-14 14:27:02 and read 79221 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 80):
Per the NYT article above (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world/asia/malaysia-military-radar.html)

"Malaysian officials have acknowledged that military radar may have picked up the plane, but have said they took no action because it did not appear hostile."

Isn't that exactly when you scramble assets to track an erratic-moving plane to make sure they're ok/don't need assistance and/or follow it to its final demise on the hopes of saving at least someone (like the US did with Payne Stewart's)? Sounds way too passive a response just because something isn't overly "hostile".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 14:27:18 and read 79148 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 83):
Could the 45K be to rapidly kill everyone with a depressurization?

I guess. But the useful time of consciousness and FL350 is 30-60s and FL430 is 9-15s. So you are just shortening the time by 45s.

If the aircraft maintains some pressure differential even with the outflow valve open - the useful time of consciousness for FL250 is 3 to 6 min, so maybe a climb would help if some pressure remains.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-14 14:27:24 and read 79143 times.

Quoting Shanwick1011Z (Reply 89):
Could the captain have been training any one or two passengers on that aircraft on his home flight simulator?

It's possible, but frankly the captain's credentials are unvarnished, and even home PC simulators are good enough for a LOT of what you would need to know for something like this, making his lavish setup unnecessary.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: KL808
Posted 2014-03-14 14:28:04 and read 78659 times.

Just out of curiosity, is it possible for the pilot to disconnect the CVR on the 777?

If foul play did happen, I hope that this did not occur like what had happened to MI 185

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 14:28:34 and read 78736 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 82):
also claim to be matching that data from RR Engine data.

There's a big disclaimer in the article on the quality of the engine data. A 40,000 fpm decent rate????

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 14:29:03 and read 78764 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 85):
If I understand correctly on Helios the passengers were out, but not necessarily dead; the Greek F-16s saw people moving around inside.

Those were crew members who had portable oxygen bottles, iirc.

And the flight never got anywhere near 45K feet.

[Edited 2014-03-14 14:29:51]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-14 14:29:21 and read 78897 times.

Just throwin it out there with the whole NYT citing of the 45K FT ascent -

Do you think the Malaysians knew this information all along, yet held it secret because it would strongly indicate that their pilot mass murdered a large amount of Chinese citizens and they would fear the fallout?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: adriaticus
Posted 2014-03-14 14:30:15 and read 79295 times.

"FIRST ON CNN: A classified analysis of electronic and satellite data conducted by the United States and Malaysian governments shows Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 likely crashed into the Indian Ocean on one of two flight paths, CNN has learned. One flight path suggests the plane crashed into the Bay of Bengal off the coast of India; the other has it traveling southeast and crashing elsewhere in the Indian Ocean, according to the analysis.

The Boeing 777-200ER with 239 passengers and crew members aboard departed Kuala Lumpur at 12:41 a.m. on March 8 in good weather. It was expected to land in Beijing at 6:30 a.m. Air traffic controllers lost contact with the plane about 2:40 a.m."

; By CNN news service via e-mail.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-14 14:31:59 and read 78275 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 52):
What?!? Unless I missed something, didn't the WSJ report establish the ACARS (data transmission) was shutdown at 1:07am and then 14 mins later the transponder at 1:21am?

No!!! The ACARS was not shut down at 1:07AM, its last transmission was at 1:07AM. The Malaysians never said it was shutdown.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: UALWN
Posted 2014-03-14 14:32:10 and read 77891 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 71):
Investigators have also examined data transmitted from the plane’s Rolls-Royce engines that shows it descending 40,000 feet in the space of a minute, according to a senior American official briefed on the investigation.

So first the WSJ claims RR got data from the engines. Then it retracts this information: only pings from the plane to the communications satellite with no data. Now the NYT talks again about data from the engines! And people here complain about the Malaysians changing their story (they haven't).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PW100
Posted 2014-03-14 14:32:29 and read 77785 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 9):
This removes any doubts about the identity of those signals/pings. As all of this new info was coming along, I was taking the ping information with a grain of salt as well. However, now it is for certain that it was MH 370 as corroborated by INMARSAT themselves. This makes me much more comfortable with the westward flightpath hypothesis

It removes nothing. Inmarsat has confirmed they received "pings" from the airplane . . . as is to be expected as it operated normally FOR over an hour, of which 40+ minutes were airborne. Inmarsat has given no details as to whether pings were received after transponder signal was lost.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 15):
The INMARSTAT makes me much more comfortable with the fact that the plane was in flight for 5 some hours beyond radar drop-off

Inmarsat has given no details as to whether pings were received after transponder signal was lost. The only thing we have are news channels/papers citing unnamed "US officials" (who decides who is an official? - unnamed?) claiming pings were received for another four hours. Mind you, those were apparently magic bullet pings with loads of information on altitude, speed, heading etc etc.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):
I believe it has not been established that ACARS shut down.

Agree, although probably poor choice of words. ACARS is not active full time, but at predetermined intervals, or even less. In this case, it appears that at least from the engine side, only three messages were planned for the full flight, two of which had been completed successfully. It would probably have taken another four hours or so before the next/last planned transmission. I don't see how one can conclude from that that the system was "shut down" when it did not send more than two messages. At least not from the engine side ACARS. I'm not sure if we have confirmation from the airframe side, but I believe MAS did not have that option activated.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 33):
What if the crew had a habit of relaxing cockpit security and inviting passengers in?

How would a potential hijacker know upfront to pick this crew/flight for his mission?

Quoting AT (Reply 39):
This is why the home of the flight crew needs to be searched and family members interviewed to the extent allowed by law. In the event it was just an accident, all that will come to naught; but if foul play by the crew was the cause, then this information will be pivotal

And that will help us exactly how to find the plane??
How would interviewing the family members help finding the plane? The younger copilot seems to be the main culprit according to some, would his family have knowledge of his/their secret plans? Then the senior Flight Sim enthusiast, even if he came up with such a clever plan to suicide/crash/hijack the plane in such a way that nobody is able to find the plane, surely he would be clever enough not to leave the training flights in his FS files, why bother taking some much care trying to avoid the known radar stations and find that radar black hole to crash/divert his aircraft . . .? Does not even pass the smell test at 4000 nautical miles.


PW100

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-14 14:32:52 and read 77795 times.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 27):
Whether the Transponder was on or off makes zero difference to the pilot's ability to fly the thing.Rgds

Ok. But anyway, could we think of the 777 landing at night in a non standard airport but with any navigation (i.e. ILS) help?

Or iwould we better require a very skilled pilot to land a 777 at night in those airports because those helps would be extremely unlikely?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 14:34:53 and read 77667 times.

Well with the CNN and NYT reports, something wild and chaotic was going on inside that aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 14:35:34 and read 77306 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 101):
How would a potential hijacker know upfront to pick this crew/flight for his mission?

I would research the planes, routes and crew members, etc., if I were going to try to hijack a plane...

I would take a few flights and see what goes on...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-14 14:35:56 and read 77407 times.

Two Questions on NYT Article:

- How accurate would a primary radar be with respect to altitude?

- Given that it was early in the flight, could a 777 with significant fuel (5 hours +) on board reach FL450?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: by738
Posted 2014-03-14 14:36:39 and read 76865 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 97):
Do you think the Malaysians knew this information all along, yet held it secret because it would strongly indicate that their pilot mass murdered a large amount of Chinese citizens and they would fear the fallout?

No

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 14:37:33 and read 77024 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 103):

If they have the insane engine altitude rate data why would it be so wildly inaccurate and discounted, does it use a independent measurement or a common system for the altitude tracking.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-14 14:38:03 and read 76558 times.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 94):
Just out of curiosity, is it possible for the pilot to disconnect the CVR on the 777?

He doesn't have to disconnect it, it only lasts so long then starts recording over itself. So if the airplane did fly for several hours after the westward turn we'll never here what happened at that time even if we do find the CVR.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-14 14:39:21 and read 76572 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 105):
- Given that it was early in the flight, could a 777 with significant fuel (5 hours +) on board reach FL450?

KUL-PEK is a very light fuel load for a 777-200ER.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 14:40:30 and read 76071 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 105):
Two Questions on NYT Article:

- How accurate would a primary radar be with respect to altitude?

The article addresses that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: blueheronNC
Posted 2014-03-14 14:41:38 and read 76138 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 107):
If they have the insane engine altitude rate data why would it be so wildly inaccurate and discounted, does it use a independent measurement or a common system for the altitude tracking.

Would a portion of the fuselage/wing including the engines breaking off and falling at terminal velocity allow for such a descent rate that would be reported back?



[Edited 2014-03-14 14:42:16]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DAL763ER
Posted 2014-03-14 14:43:35 and read 75635 times.

I've been following the threads and am intrigued by the number of possible scenarios that went on that night. It's sad that we have no clue what happened. We're just entering day 7 and I've been thinking - how long are we going to keep throwing money at this? Sure, it's in everyone's best interest to find out what happened so we can improve. But a lot of resources have gone into this already and there's probably more on the line. So what happens if, 7 days from now, we're in the same position (i.e, nowhere)? How long is SAR expected to continue for before they deem it vanished?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 14:44:44 and read 75176 times.

Quoting blueheronNC (Reply 111):

I highly doubt ACARS reports normal but invalid data if the engine falls off. And I am certain ACARS won't get data from an engine that isn't attached to the plane. The ACARS system needs the satcom modem to send the data if the engine seperated from the plane it falling wouldn't report back data. (no wireless datalinks yet) Not to mention a mountain of errors would be reported if an engine detached from a plane and it was still flying and sending data back.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-14 14:46:10 and read 74842 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 104):

How can you predict the flight crew if you are not in an airline planning department? I guess they rotate crews and the schedule is not really known to the outsider...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-14 14:46:18 and read 74993 times.

OK, on any other day I would laugh if someone asked this question, but is there a way to parachute out of a 777 DB Cooper-style. I know the 727 hatch is long gone, but any chance?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ideekay
Posted 2014-03-14 14:46:34 and read 75066 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTN9tWr-3l8

Interesting, if they still would continue after those 5 hours, they could be over pakistan..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: KL808
Posted 2014-03-14 14:47:14 and read 74989 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 108):
He doesn't have to disconnect it, it only lasts so long then starts recording over itself. So if the airplane did fly for several hours after the westward turn we'll never here what happened at that time even if we do find the CVR.

Doesn't the 777 CVR have 120 minutes? Thats 4 hours! So you might be right. But it will be close

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 14:47:57 and read 75019 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 112):
How long is SAR expected to continue for before they deem it vanished?

It's deemed vanished right now. If enough people get comfortable that it's actually at the bottom of the Indian Ocean then SAR efforts likely will be significantly scaled back.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 14:49:10 and read 74575 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 114):
How can you predict the flight crew if you are not in an airline planning department? I guess they rotate crews and the schedule is not really known to the outsider...

People talk...

They post on Facebook and Twitter...

They talk in the restaurant or at the bar, etc...

They talk about their day, their job, where they are going, how bad such and such an airport is, etc.

Is it really that hard to find out?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 14:49:15 and read 74356 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 112):

Day 7....and we are largely unsure of what ocean to even look in.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 14:50:02 and read 74017 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 115):
is there a way to parachute out of a 777 DB Cooper-style.

DB Cooper left with cash. Why would anyone want to hijack a 777 just to skydive out of it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DeltaAtl
Posted 2014-03-14 14:50:14 and read 74302 times.

Via LiveATC.net

Good communications link

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolog...ane-apparently-kept-flying/284414/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 14:50:28 and read 73965 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 120):

Day 7....and we are largely unsure of what ocean to even look in.

Or if we should look in the water...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-14 14:51:07 and read 74235 times.

Boeing pilots - will a 777 even allow you to climb above the service ceiling?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-14 14:51:07 and read 74203 times.

OK. So let's say the new report of the aircraft taking two possible flight paths and crashing in the Indian Ocean, do you not believe that in the past seven days not ONE, SINGLE ship (cargo, merchant, fishing, military) crossed paths with any sort of debris in these areas...????

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-14 14:52:11 and read 74100 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 115):
OK, on any other day I would laugh if someone asked this question, but is there a way to parachute out of a 777 DB Cooper-style. I know the 727 hatch is long gone, but any chance?

Of course you can.

Here you are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_812

But this poor bloke used a home-made parachute...   


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 14:53:44 and read 73971 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 125):
do you not believe that in the past seven days not ONE, SINGLE ship (cargo, merchant, fishing, military) crossed paths with any sort of debris in these areas...????

The Indian Ocean is very large and ships and 777s are very small.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-14 14:55:26 and read 74281 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 77):
Quoting flyenthu (Reply 72):
OK it is "preliminary assessment of data." We know where some initial analyses usually lead. How can frame integrity be maintained at 45000? The pressure difference between inside and outside will be huge.

Not too far off it's certified ceiling of 43100, so it's probably fine.

Flight at 45000 will not jeopardize the structural integrity of the airplane. Flight at 50000 wouldn't either. The cabin has its maximum differential pressure, and the safety valves will make sure that that pressure is not exceeded. What will happen is that the cabin will climb slightly in order to maintain that differential pressure at whatever altitude the plane happens to be at. The cabin altitude would have to double (i.e. get to 15,000 or 16,000 feet) before it became a danger to the passengers, and the airplane would run out of excess power to climb well before that happened.

The dangers involved in exceeding the service ceiling are aerodynamic ones, not pressurization ones.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 94):
Just out of curiosity, is it possible for the pilot to disconnect the CVR on the 777?

It likely is, as SOP in the event of an accident is to pull the CVR circuit breaker in order to prevent data from being overwritten by virtue of leaving the tape running (if the crew has a chance to, that is - obviously pulling the CB is of very low priority in relation to the rest of the tasks the crew would be faced with in the event of an accident).

-Mir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2014-03-14 14:56:03 and read 73477 times.

Most plausible explanation is pilot suicide I think. The communications were switched off deliberately, the aircraft was flown out to the middle of the Indian Ocean to be crashed there to confuse investigators and make it hard if not impossible to find the cause of the crash maybe to get insurance money for the family left behind.

[Edited 2014-03-14 15:01:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: kpitrrat
Posted 2014-03-14 14:56:59 and read 73283 times.

How far could that plane have flown on one engine? Would that have extended it's range?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 14:57:40 and read 73393 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 115):
OK, on any other day I would laugh if someone asked this question, but is there a way to parachute out of a 777 DB Cooper-style. I know the 727 hatch is long gone, but any chance?

With a saw, plasma cutter, or explosives - sure.

The main doors swing forward - so no go while in flight, even with the plane depressurized. I assume the largish over wing exits on a 777 work similarly.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-14 14:57:43 and read 73999 times.

Now CNN is reporting the NY Times states the aircraft climbed to FL450. That is peculiar. I don't know how easy it is to get a B777 to well above its service ceiling of FL410.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-14 14:58:09 and read 73014 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 115):

It seems as reasonable question in current circumstances. What about scan of the hand luggage? Would not be security team wondering why someone takes parachute aboard? If of course it's somehow read on the scan. If hijacking theory is developed now as the basic one, I would definitely look records of hand luggage scans to check the possibility.
Also to bring parallel, when they perform test flights for new airframes, pilots do wear parachutes, so it's not that impossible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-14 14:58:40 and read 73184 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 121):
DB Cooper left with cash. Why would anyone want to hijack a 777 just to skydive out of it?

No idea. But it would appear like somebody[ies] who knew the 777, who knew how to fly, and who know how to evade a lot of detection put a lot of thought into "stealing" a plane. Was the whole plan simply to crash it in the middle of nowhere? Maybe, but certainly there's a reasonable maybe not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-14 14:59:20 and read 72962 times.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 117):
Doesn't the 777 CVR have 120 minutes? Thats 4 hours!

120 minutes is two hours, not four.

-Mir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-14 15:00:30 and read 72759 times.

If this was pilot intention to sabotage this aircraft, I don't think the pilots should have access to turning off both the transponder or the ACARS system. Even so, why can't the transponder be left on with no off switch? Wouldn't it make life easier?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-14 15:00:32 and read 72794 times.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 117):
Doesn't the 777 CVR have 120 minutes? Thats 4 hours! So you might be right. But it will be close

That's 2 hours on this planet.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 124):
Boeing pilots - will a 777 even allow you to climb above the service ceiling?

Yes

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 125):
OK. So let's say the new report of the aircraft taking two possible flight paths and crashing in the Indian Ocean, do you not believe that in the past seven days not ONE, SINGLE ship (cargo, merchant, fishing, military) crossed paths with any sort of debris in these areas...????

If it took the southern track there is absolutely nothing out there south of India until you get to Antarctica except Diego Garcia. No ships and probably not more than 1 or 2 planes a day -- it's not heavily traveled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-14 15:01:06 and read 72604 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 113):

ACARS is a communication system a bit like a home router, it will route messages via VHF, HF, or satellite datalinks. The maintenance systems, ADS etc are not located in ACARS, they do however send data to and receive data from it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-14 15:05:19 and read 72084 times.

Quoting adriaticus (Reply 98):
"FIRST ON CNN: A classified analysis of electronic and satellite data conducted by the United States and Malaysian governments shows Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 likely crashed into the Indian Ocean on one of two flight paths, CNN has learned. One flight path suggests the plane crashed into the Bay of Bengal off the coast of India; the other has it traveling southeast and crashing elsewhere in the Indian Ocean, according to the analysis.

Interesting. I plotted the waypoints and the distance along the path described earlier is almost 1100 miles. I also read that the US Govt stated that the plane flew for another 4 or 5 hours after that. Assuming that after flying over 1000 miles the remaining range would be around 2200 miles... gives the red circle inthe map below.



Live Map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934

I wish I could get the actual radar tracks, if they crashed before getting to India they must not have been flying in a straight line. If it flew towards the southeast and crashed, then perhaps it is somewhere along the red circle...

SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-14 15:06:45 and read 71557 times.

Quoting adriaticus (Reply 98):
"FIRST ON CNN: A classified analysis of electronic and satellite data conducted by the United States and Malaysian governments shows Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 likely crashed into the Indian Ocean on one of two flight paths, CNN has learned. One flight path suggests the plane crashed into the Bay of Bengal off the coast of India; the other has it traveling southeast and crashing elsewhere in the Indian Ocean, according to the analysis.

ROTFL: so either was head or either was tail? And one need a classified analysis for that data...

Seriously, the fact that such a review, conducted under the auspices of the US, still cannot choose between the two competing hypothesis since day 2 just highlights the incredible difficulties of this search...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-14 15:07:33 and read 71702 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 132):
Now CNN is reporting the NY Times states the aircraft climbed to FL450. That is peculiar. I don't know how easy it is to get a B777 to well above its service ceiling of FL410.

Maximum operating altitude is 43,100ft but if it was light enough it could possibly make FL450, depending on where the "coffin corner" is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 15:07:38 and read 71395 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 138):

ACARS isn't the comm system it is a reporting system the Satcom modem, VHF, HF modules are the modems/gateway/routers. ACARS is an application which aggregates maintenance and airplane data which is sent along an available route. If an engine fell off it shouldn't report -45kfpm but a slew of other errors. (From what I understand ACARs is one of many systems which can use the satcom or other radio modems/transmitters)

Not to mention ACARS would never be able to retrieve data from an suddenly detached engine with it still saying things are fine.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 15:08:18 and read 71160 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 132):
That is peculiar. I don't know how easy it is to get a B777 to well above its service ceiling of FL410.

I don't know about anyone else but this constant re-asking of questions that have been answered (sometimes multiple times) just a few posts earlier is getting on my nerves.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-14 15:10:11 and read 70783 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 131):
With a saw, plasma cutter, or explosives - sure.

The main doors swing forward - so no go while in flight, even with the plane depressurized. I assume the largish over wing exits on a 777 work similarly.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 126):
Of course you can.

Here you are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_812

But this poor bloke used a home-made parachute...   

Who knows then. Maybe he/she/them programmed the A/P for flight toward the Indian Ocean where it would crash from fuel exhaustion, but bailed when the plane tracked back over Malaysia.

I have no idea why and I'm fully aware this sounds insane.

Just seems weird if this was the meticulously-planned operation it appears to have been that the end game was nothing more than suicide in the middle of nowhere.

Other explanations are available, I realize. UA 93, perhaps. Hijacker who refused to believe that flight didn't have fuel enough to go where he wanted to go. But nothing really seems to make sense since whoever took the plane seems to have known A LOT about flying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-14 15:11:19 and read 70884 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 137):
If it took the southern track there is absolutely nothing out there south of India until you get to Antarctica except Diego Garcia. No ships and probably not more than 1 or 2 planes a day -- it's not heavily traveled.

If that's the case, then let's hope the person that comandeered the A/C made everyone hypoxic because to ditch in the middle of an "oceanic nowhere" is very difficult for me to digest for the people on that plane.

To think (if people were alive), we're ditching in the middle of an Indian Ocean where we have absolutely ZERO chance of being seen by any ships or planes.

I will pray for the souls.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-14 15:12:40 and read 70599 times.

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 124):
Boeing pilots - will a 777 even allow you to climb above the service ceiling?

In theory it will keep climbing until the wings stop producing enough lift to sustain flight. Then it practically stalls.
FL430 is the stated max service ceiling with a margin for safety. I'm not sure exactly what the highest is a 777 will go before it drops out of the sky.

Google "Coffin Corner"

[Edited 2014-03-14 15:14:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-14 15:16:19 and read 69793 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 146):
I'm not sure exactly what the highest is a 777 will go before it drops out of the sky.

Would depend on weight and outside air temp. I don´t think they would´ve been able to climb more than to 45,000 ft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-14 15:18:18 and read 69462 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 145):
To think (if people were alive), we're ditching in the middle of an Indian Ocean where we have absolutely ZERO chance of being seen by any ships or planes

No but you have ELTs in each of the 8 slide/rafts you're floating around in which would have had rescue parties on site several days ago. What's going on now is not!!! a rescue mission.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-14 15:18:52 and read 69504 times.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 72):
We know where some initial analyses usually lead. How can frame integrity be maintained at 45000?

Service ceiling is more related to performance than pressurization - also the speed at which an a/c can descend to safe altitude in the case of sudden depressurization. I would expect the hull to survive this fine.
However, this is above the service ceiling and the a/c could stall. The same report says it descended "unevenly" to 23K.
BUT - how confident are we of this. If it is primary radar data from a distance, it is problematic at best.

I think we need to wait for some more confirmation on this before we call it factual.
For instance, the SATCOM pings - the company who detected them and reported them is not confirming how long they received them.

This whole investigation is quite dynamic and confusing.

Unfortunately - in the understandable desire to 'report progress' combined with the desire by news agencies to "report first' I think there is some loosy goosey reporting going on both the parts of news media and officials.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 105):
Given that it was early in the flight, could a 777 with significant fuel (5 hours +) on board reach FL450?

Probably - momentarily. Climbing hard and overshooting ceiling.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 117):
Doesn't the 777 CVR have 120 minutes? Thats 4 hours! So you might be right. But it will be close

Last time I checked, there were 60 minutes in an hour - so that's 2 hours.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Indy
Posted 2014-03-14 15:19:36 and read 69550 times.

Given the odd behavior of the flight and the amount of time the flight continued on, I think we can pretty much eliminate mechanical failure or some act of god/nature. That pretty much just leaves a hijacking. By hijacking I mean any illegal operation of the flight whether it be by a 3rd party or the flight crew. A human likely did something bad with this flight. But what? Was it a suicide mission? Was it an attempted large scale kidnapping for a later ransom demand? Was it for the theft of the equipment itself? So it leaves me with these questions. Who did it? Why? And where is the plane now?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: aftgaffe
Posted 2014-03-14 15:20:43 and read 69218 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 146):
In theory it will keep climbing until the wings stop producing enough lift to sustain flight. Then it practically stalls.
FL430 is the stated max service ceiling with a margin for safety. I'm not sure exactly what the highest is a 777 will go before it drops out of the sky.

I know the plane could physically climb to FL450 and beyond. My question was will the plane accept commands to keep climbing past the service ceiling. A Boeing pilot above said yes, so that's that. But I thought there was a chance the answer would no.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 15:20:46 and read 69563 times.

You almost certainly can not get to FL450 in level flight at that weight.

But you can "zoom" climb past your level flight max altitude. A stall is a likely result.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 15:22:46 and read 69132 times.

The recent reports are starting to point towards outside of the cockpit hijacking. Maybe take a closer look at the two Iranians? It sounds like someone not too entirely familiar with the systems of the 777 began the hijacking with a joyride by disconnecting the autopilot and pushing the throttles forward, then pulling back on the yoke, causing a rapid ascent. They were all over the place until they ran out of fuel. The 29 year old was the brains, with rudimentary knowledge of transponder and operation of ACARS on the FMC. The 19 year old was his younger protege who was probably flying the aircraft recklessly. They were both on odd locations and routes for political asylum. Debris probably floated for a few days in a location not too entirely travelled by amphibious vessels, then eventually sank with choppy seas and currents. The United States and Malays are probably aware and received intel via chatter or informants. My new theory, that will probably get shot down later by new developments.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-14 15:22:56 and read 68799 times.

can the autopilot store multiple routes at once? Like say for example, lets say the pilot or co-pilot had programmed this route that we now know took the plane to the indian ocean, but then they just kept it stored away? They fly the normal climb out from KL but then at the handoff point, it gets switched over to the other route? Is that possible?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-14 15:24:05 and read 68551 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 132):
Now CNN is reporting the NY Times states the aircraft climbed to FL450.

What is the NY Times source?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ChaosTheory
Posted 2014-03-14 15:26:09 and read 68382 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 109):
KUL-PEK is a very light fuel load for a 777-200ER.

Not very. On a similar sector we would carry around 50t.

Quoting ideekay (Reply 116):
Interesting, if they still would continue after those 5 hours, they could be over pakistan..

The Pakistanis have excellent military radars covering their borders. It would be unlikely to go undetected.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: seat55a
Posted 2014-03-14 15:27:13 and read 68168 times.

Quoting art (Reply 155):
Quoting billreid (Reply 132):
Now CNN is reporting the NY Times states the aircraft climbed to FL450.

What is the NY Times source?

"a preliminary assessment by a person familiar with the data."

But they also have the grace to quote

Quote:
one official said. “A lot of this doesn’t make sense.”

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-14 15:27:25 and read 68138 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 143):
I don't know about anyone else but this constant re-asking of questions that have been answered

Yes - it does. However, I'm also finding that the threads move so fast that often by the time I've composed and posted and answer - there have been several other asks and answers.

It may be just an artifact of such a fast moving subject.

-bg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 15:27:44 and read 68151 times.

Quoting art (Reply 155):
What is the NY Times source?

"American officials and others familiar with the investigation"

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: eal46859
Posted 2014-03-14 15:28:23 and read 67798 times.

Why does the Transponder on any commercial airliner even have the ability to be turned off ? Is there a reason or situation that a commercial airliner would not want to have the transponder on?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 15:29:24 and read 68029 times.

Quoting art (Reply 155):
What is the NY Times source?

Our good friend the senior official who wishes to remain anonymous because he is not authorized to talk about the issue.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 15:31:27 and read 67519 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 158):
It may be just an artifact of such a fast moving subject.

Actually, I'm sympathetic to that problem as well. But then I see this:

Quoting eal46859 (Reply 160):
Why does the Transponder on any commercial airliner even have the ability to be turned off ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 15:31:35 and read 67379 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 159):

On ground to reduce clutter, In air if it malfunctions or partially fails.

Ops wrong reply quote.

[Edited 2014-03-14 15:32:16]

Quoting eal46859 (Reply 160):


[Edited 2014-03-14 15:32:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-14 15:33:25 and read 67320 times.

Quoting eal46859 (Reply 160):
Why does the Transponder on any commercial airliner even have the ability to be turned off ? Is there a reason or situation that a commercial airliner would not want to have the transponder on?

Sigh... CTRL+F is your friend. This has been explained MANY MANY times. There are many reasons and unless clueless lawmakers get their way, transponders and everything else in the aircraft will always be able to be turned off by the flight crew

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: JoeinTX
Posted 2014-03-14 15:33:39 and read 67067 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 161):
Why does the Transponder on any commercial airliner even have the ability to be turned off ? Is there a reason or situation that a commercial airliner would not want to have the transponder on?

It can go bad like any other item on the plane. Short out, start a fire, tec. You need to be able to turn it off in cases like that. Most everything inside a plane today can be turned off one way or another for just this very reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2014-03-14 15:35:11 and read 66787 times.

Quoting eal46859 (Reply 160):
Why does the Transponder on any commercial airliner even have the ability to be turned off ? Is there a reason or situation that a commercial airliner would not want to have the transponder on?

Maintenance/troubleshooting can be one reason. You also have to have the ability to change the squawk codes at a given time at the direction of air traffic control or if you can get out a call for help about a hijacking.

What should NOT be possible is completely disabling the transponder while in flight. Perhaps that will be something we see changed if we can figure out what happened here.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: JoeinTX
Posted 2014-03-14 15:36:41 and read 66643 times.

I've started leaning, with this latest info, toward a fight in the cockpit. Whoever took the plane afterward knew too much about navigation and airline protocol and gaps in radar coverage to pull this off. Would tend to explain the altitude fluctuations as a commotion would take them away from their work and the aircraft would do it's own thing for a bit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 15:36:47 and read 66610 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 166):
What should NOT be possible is completely disabling the transponder while in flight.

Oh, really? Thanks for your (clearly expert) opinion.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CityhopperNL
Posted 2014-03-14 15:37:45 and read 66638 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 99):
No!!! The ACARS was not shut down at 1:07AM, its last transmission was at 1:07AM. The Malaysians never said it was shutdown.

So basically the whole story that someone shut down ACARS and turned off the transponder 14 minutes later has been debunked over the course of today.

Absolutely incredible once again. Last night, this was sensational breaking news in all media and TV stations. It was gonna prove that there was malicious human intervention, I remember all the "experts" on CNN talking about this and couldn't help thinking "What if this is yet another thing that will turn out not to be what it looks like", and there you go. It looks like the media are also playing a big role in exaggerating or sensationalizing anything the Malaysians say - there has been this kind of sensational news for 4 days in a row now. Any other news than mentioned on AVHerald has consequently been turning out to be b/s for the entire week. I hope there are still people out there within the investigation who are working with the facts and the facts only.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-14 15:38:07 and read 66186 times.

Quoting JoeinTX (Reply 165):
Quoting hivue (Reply 161):Why does the Transponder on any commercial airliner even have the ability to be turned off ? Is there a reason or situation that a commercial airliner would not want to have the transponder on?

It can go bad like any other item on the plane. Short out, start a fire, tec. You need to be able to turn it off in cases like that. Most everything inside a plane today can be turned off one way or another for just this very reason.

That is not my quote (and I am the last person on this forum who wants to have it attributed to him; see my post 162).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-14 15:38:51 and read 66330 times.

Possible tremor related with the missing (if that would be the case, 1.5 hours after loss of communication)

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio...activity-at-sea-crashing-of-plane/

(Sorry if it has been discussed before, but I haven't seen)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: JoeinTX
Posted 2014-03-14 15:40:29 and read 65830 times.

No it's not. No idea why it attributed that to you.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: cpw
Posted 2014-03-14 15:41:41 and read 65916 times.

I think one thing that is important to note is that the satellite pings - from what has been leaked to the media - ended. No "officials" have come out saying that they started pinging again, which I would assume would happen any time the modem was powered up. Given that the information came out several days after the plane would have exhausted its fuel supply, and given that it is likely whoever was flying the airplane (if they did, in fact, disable ACARS and the transponder) did not know about the auto-pings until it showed up in the media, it's likely safe to say that the plane is exactly where it was when it stopped moving.

It's also important for everyone to understand that there's a time and a place for transparency. Criminal investigations are not one of those places. If officials had reason to believe that there was some nefarious reason behind the plane disappearing, it's very logical that certain facts - especially those that would help them identify future movements - would not be released to the media. It's actually quite common for key details to be left out of media releases to filter out people who claim to have a connection with a case. If the individuals can answer specific questions that only a person with direct involvement would know, it lends credibility to the story. In this case, it would be used to hopefully mask the fact that there was a data bit that could be used to monitor the aircraft's operations, however rudimentary the monitoring was.

A post on an earlier thread mentioned that the next ACARS burst would have come on landing, and postulating that because a) that didn't come, b) there was no ELT transmission, and c) the satellite pings stopped, the plane is likely at the bottom of a body of water. Granted, a circuit breaker being pulled could easily stop the satellite pings, but given they were still going 4+ hours into the flight, it's highly likely that whoever was in control of the plane did not know that the modem had an auto-ping feature, and that if the plane had been powered up beyond that time, the pings would have continued.

It sounds like the NY Times has information to corroborate that as well.

Back to lurking...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: imatams
Posted 2014-03-14 15:41:46 and read 65867 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 161):
Quoting art (Reply 155):What is the NY Times source? Our good friend the senior official who wishes to remain anonymous because he is not authorized to talk about the issue.

Well they can hardly say "It's Gary the sub-editor two desks away who's read a story on ElvisLives.com"

The trouble with these anonymous sources is that they, and the journalists, can basically say whatever they feel and the word 'offical' gives a statement a credence that it might not reserve..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 15:42:04 and read 65907 times.

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 156):
The Pakistanis have excellent military radars covering their borders. It would be unlikely to go undetected.

Dunno about excellent radars but this kind of intrusion would have led to the scrambling of fighters both by India as well as Pakistan; short of triggering WW 3.
Moreover; the aircraft would have likely collided or at least have had a near miss with some aircraft considering the extremely busy airspace over India judging from Flightradar24.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 15:42:20 and read 65723 times.

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 169):
So basically the whole story that someone shut down ACARS and turned off the transponder 14 minutes later has been debunked over the course of today.

I don't trust WSJ's wording one bit as they went from RR to Boeing to Inmarsat (some are citing iridium?, even with an official inmarsat press release) maybe they are right about something but as mentioned before ACARS doesn't transmit constantly or with enough time resolution to say it was off 17 minutes before. (Or that is what I gather from all the conflicting reports). Now we have news stories saying engine data was sent during the turn which would be after the data supposedly stopped?

I'm just going to wait till they pick one search region and confirm the satcom ping reports as the news of late has been inconsistent and confusing to say the least.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: s5daw
Posted 2014-03-14 15:43:57 and read 66087 times.

Dear lord... this has gotten hysterically insane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2014-03-14 15:44:11 and read 65796 times.

Quoting Indy (Reply 150):
Given the odd behavior of the flight and the amount of time the flight continued on, I think we can pretty much eliminate mechanical failure or some act of god/nature

Seriously? They haven't even located the plane and you're ready to discount the possibility that it was an accident? We know nothing. Nothing. The tiny bits of unreliable and often contradictory info that has been tricking in don't prove anything or even point which OCEAN the plane is in. There have been no claims of responsibility and no one with any kind of motive that can be supported with even a shred of evidence. To propose that we know it was terrorism/a hijacking requires an incredible amount of hubris.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ADent
Posted 2014-03-14 15:49:33 and read 64919 times.

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 169):
So basically the whole story that someone shut down ACARS and turned off the transponder 14 minutes later has been debunked over the course of today.

Only by unnamed sources. The only reliable data is the last transmission was at 1:07AM. Reports yesterday was that it was turned off early. Reports today was they are comparing radar data to RR engine data. Neither position has been publicly claimed by an official.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2014-03-14 15:50:11 and read 64737 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 17):
But gee, this still just doesn't eliminate the theory of a landing, they could have landed for a quick refuel and unloading of passengers and cargo.

If the plane landed and then took off for a more distant location, wouldn't it continue transmitting the ACARS data? It would seem to me that if someone took over the aircraft, they'd have to be very sophisticated to figure out how to disable all the transmitting points on the aircraft, if that's even possible.

The wild deviations in altitude reported by the NYT sounds like what happened with the Greek airliner that lost cabin pressure. I recall the plane rose and fell a number of times before crashing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ChaosTheory
Posted 2014-03-14 15:50:15 and read 64844 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 175):
Dunno about excellent radars but this kind of intrusion would have led to the scrambling of fighters both by India as well as Pakistan;

Apart from the extreme Northern Areas, Pakistani airspace is covered by Lockheed Martin TPS-77 radars.

Tracking the 777 would be a piece of cake.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-14 15:50:26 and read 64981 times.

Sorry if somebody has already mentioned this... But is anyone in the UK watching the channel 5 "the plane that vanished"?

what a load of absolute drivel - seriously. Chris yates and David Learmount- i could nominate a couple of dozen posters on here that would do a better job.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-14 15:52:17 and read 64399 times.

I wouldn't be so fast to say that certain things have been "debunked".

As CPW so aptly notes above, transparency isn't going to happen in a criminal investigation. Lots of info in this investigation has come out, made sense, and then been denied and denied and denied and then admitted, sort of.

The last thing you want to do is tell people that we know where they are while you are locking and loading your guns. I don't think that we, anymore, are in a position to determine anything from the available information, and perhaps that's as it is intended. What is quite apparent is that some very competent people are FINALLY getting involved in this investigation, and we should have some kind of resolution in the next couple of days.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: noflies
Posted 2014-03-14 15:53:27 and read 64651 times.

Considering latest unconfirmed report that it climbed to 45k, above approved altitude limit and made a sharp turn dropped to 23k feet, then back up to 29.5K feet...

If that turns out to be true (and who knows what's true and what's not at the moment), does that make sense to anyone in any kind of scenario?

Also, I wonder if one or both the pilots will turn out to be heroes - for example, by averting some further seemingly inevitable disaster.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Rara
Posted 2014-03-14 15:56:20 and read 64022 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 119):
They talk about their day, their job, where they are going, how bad such and such an airport is, etc.

Is it really that hard to find out?

It's very near impossible. Crew rotations are confidential; precisely to protect family and friends from media attention if something were to happen.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: desh
Posted 2014-03-14 15:58:41 and read 63608 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 175):
Dunno about excellent radars but this kind of intrusion would have led to the scrambling of fighters both by India as well as Pakistan; short of triggering WW 3.

Assuming India lets an unidentified object to cross its airspace ... doubt if that aircraft would make it to the India Pakistan Border, unless of course they took a detour around Sri Lanka.

Another request - someone had posted a helpful depth chart of the Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal many many threads ago ..if you read this would you please post it again ? I have googled for it and have not found one as good as that one.

Thanks

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: moose135
Posted 2014-03-14 16:01:34 and read 63189 times.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 177):
Dear lord... this has gotten hysterically insane.

The incident, or the 24 (and counting) threads here?
 Wow!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-14 16:02:33 and read 63003 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 146):
Quoting noflies (Reply 184):
Considering latest unconfirmed report that it climbed to 45k, above approved altitude limit and made a sharp turn dropped to 23k feet, then back up to 29.5K feet...

If that turns out to be true (and who knows what's true and what's not at the moment), does that make sense to anyone in any kind of scenario?

Also, I wonder if one or both the pilots will turn out to be heroes - for example, by averting some further seemingly inevitable disaster.

I think this information supports pilot suicide/homicide more than anything else, based on all the other data we have.

[Edited 2014-03-14 16:03:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-14 16:03:19 and read 63160 times.

Quoting Shanwick1011Z (Reply 89):
Could the captain have been training any one or two passengers on that aircraft on his home flight simulator?

I find the flight simulator itself intriguing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/14/wo.../malaysia-airlines-pilot-profiles/

According to CNN:

Quote:
"About a month ago I finish assembly of FSX and FS9 with 6 monitors." The message was signed Capt. Zaharie Ahmad Shah BOEING 777 MALAYSIA AIRLINES.

FSX and FS9 are over-the-counter flight simulator games made by Microsoft.

On Friday, the CEO of Malaysia Airlines said that everyone is allowed to pursue their hobbies.

I am not a psychologist myself but I wonder if somehow with a depersonalization or derealization disorder could just decide to put in practice what he made in the simulator. At the end that simulator seemed really accurate and the pilot could please himself as he wanted at home. Are those simulations recorded?. Why those apologetic remarks from the CEO of MAS?

As someone has pointed, flying through the Indian Ocean is pretty remote southwards. Maybe imagining how this wreckage could potentially be the first commercial flight never found was appealing enough. This could make MH370 a legend in aviation history.

I don't buy the life insurance theory... I doubt many people kill themselves to give money to their family (and nonetheless a commercial pilot). If you want to do that, there are certainly easier ways, instead of killing 238 people with you. Too much fanfare and complication just to get an insurance paid.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 16:03:43 and read 62986 times.

Quoting desh (Reply 186):
Another request - someone had posted a helpful depth chart of the Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal many many threads ago ..if you read this would you please post it again ? I have googled for it and have not found one as good as that one.

I had posted it earlier. Is this the one you are talking about? - http://oceana.org/en/explore/marine-places/andaman-sea

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 16:06:05 and read 62481 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 189):
Maybe imagining how this wreckage could potentially be the first commercial flight never found was appealing enough.

Would not be the first; has happened before - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Boeing_707-323C_disappearance

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-14 16:07:05 and read 62398 times.

One thing I haven't seen explored is the significant possibility that the CVR and DFDR would have had their breakers pulled early in the proceedings...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-14 16:09:00 and read 62013 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 182):

Thanks for letting us know, I thought I missed something exciting ! as I was busy doing few things, was gutted forgot to record it, but may be I will catch up online.


Do you guys think India, Pak or Srilanka would have taken any action if they would have recognized this flight as unknown aircraft on their space?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CityhopperNL
Posted 2014-03-14 16:09:01 and read 62004 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 183):
The last thing you want to do is tell people that we know where they are while you are locking and loading your guns. I don't think that we, anymore, are in a position to determine anything from the available information, and perhaps that's as it is intended. What is quite apparent is that some very competent people are FINALLY getting involved in this investigation, and we should have some kind of resolution in the next couple of days.

Yes I agree. In my earlier post I said "debunked" and that was towards the claim yesterday that "ACARS was turned off" while these transmissions are snapshot transmissions so to speak so the "turned off" part was purely speculative. I wonder if the "climb to FL450" thing that is hot news tonight will tomorrow turn out to be another misinterpretation of some kind.

And I do also totally agree that it is hopeful that some competent people are finally being brought in. In case of landing or crash on land, the plane will eventually be found. But in case of ditch or crash on water, it is now or never. So I just hope they have a clue about which sea it will be in in that scenario, be it the entire northern Indian ocean. Once you know that, you can bring in naval equipment (and in particular, that of the US, hopefully). With marine technology being probably the most phenomenal military technology of all you'd still have a high probability of finding the plane before the signals die out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-14 16:11:09 and read 61842 times.

Quoting seat55a (Reply 6):
You can probably put this together with the claims in the WSJ and say "several hours flying westward."

Well I have to eat some crow, as I thought they were def wrong. It wasn't the engines reporting but clearly they got some kind of early intel.

My guess is that of the two tracks shown on TV, the plane probably headed south deep into Indian Ocean. The radar and altitude change near Vietnam is very interesting but probably a sign of some kind of struggle.


Can anyone confirm Voice Data Recorder is only 2 hours? That would mean it might not have the moment of the takeover.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: desh
Posted 2014-03-14 16:12:34 and read 61448 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 190):

Quoting desh (Reply 186):
Another request - someone had posted a helpful depth chart of the Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal many many threads ago ..if you read this would you please post it again ? I have googled for it and have not found one as good as that one.

I had posted it earlier. Is this the one you are talking about? - http://oceana.org/en/explore/marine-...n-sea

No - but this helps. Gives me the info I was looking for. Was not sure deep the ocean is in that area.

Thanks you for sharing !

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 16:15:17 and read 61153 times.

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 181):
Apart from the extreme Northern Areas, Pakistani airspace is covered by Lockheed Martin TPS-77 radars.

Tracking the 777 would be a piece of cake.

What about Indian airspace? I imagine Indian military could track equally good. So, begs the question why didn't they detect the 777 in the Bay of Bengal and why is everybody searching there? If their radar is good and they could track it over the Bay of Bengal then we would have known by now. Probably the plane went towards SriLanka or much more south of SriLanka over the deep waters of the Indian Ocean ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-14 16:16:58 and read 60945 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 197):
Probably the plane went towards SriLanka or much more south of SriLanka over the deep waters of the Indian Ocean ?

That's quite probable. If we assume whoever was flying the 777 wanted to hide its remains as well as possible flying far into the Indian Ocean would make sense.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-14 16:17:19 and read 60776 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 191):
Would not be the first; has happened before - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Boeing_707-323C_disappearance

I meant passenger flight... certainly cargo is commercial too.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ranold76
Posted 2014-03-14 16:17:36 and read 60943 times.

I'm thinking the climb to FL450 radar data isn't accurate and the RR 40,000ft/min drop data is erroneous.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: BridYYC
Posted 2014-03-14 16:18:07 and read 60647 times.

Could you elaborate on why it would support suicide/homocide? I was thinking a couple of things:

1) could it possiblty have been efforts to put out a fire of some sort? Climbing to where there's not enough oxygen to support a fire?

2) Referencing a previous thread, if whomever was flying the plane wanted to take out the passengers, a lack of oxygen could do it. Of course, that would apply at 30k just as wel as 45k.




Quoting noflies (Reply 184):
Considering latest unconfirmed report that it climbed to 45k, above approved altitude limit and made a sharp turn dropped to 23k feet, then back up to 29.5K feet...

If that turns out to be true (and who knows what's true and what's not at the moment), does that make sense to anyone in any kind of scenario?

Also, I wonder if one or both the pilots will turn out to be heroes - for example, by averting some further seemingly inevitable disaster.

I think this information supports pilot suicide/homicide more than anything else, based on all the other data we have[/quote]

[Edited 2014-03-14 16:36:02]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-14 16:18:23 and read 61286 times.

if you think its gone insane on A.net, have a peak over here:

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6757

some crazy theories, but almost all of them involve the US doing something nefarious. Kinda sick of seeing the same thing over and over at that forum  .

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 16:18:41 and read 61050 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 193):
Do you guys think India, Pak or Srilanka would have taken any action if they would have recognized this flight as unknown aircraft on their space?

At least India & Pakistan would I think; they are paranoid about each other.

And in fact; the answer is simple thanks to google  Smile - http://www.deccanherald.com/content/21851/F

So, it has happened in the past where they have scrambled fighter jets.

[Edited 2014-03-14 16:21:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-14 16:21:25 and read 60642 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 203):

Shoot it down without giving much notice?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-14 16:24:08 and read 60094 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 204):
Shoot it down without giving much notice?

No, they would send up a fighter or two to see what the unknown echo on their radar screens is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-14 16:24:14 and read 60194 times.

It's time to start thinking and investigating non-conventional and irrational theories, like dimensions in the atmosphere that science never knew it existed

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 16:25:51 and read 60019 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 204):
Shoot it down without giving much notice?

See my reply 203. I posted a link there.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-14 16:25:53 and read 60084 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 203):

Thank goodness it didn't end like KAL007 or Iran air flight !

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-14 16:26:30 and read 60081 times.

Btw the CNN link I quoted has a link to this forum... I hope this has not been posted yet.

http://www.x-sim.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20&start=110#p3972

by zaharie » Sat 17. Nov 2012, 13:19

Quote:
Elo guys,
zaharie here.... pls to join x-sim. About a month ago I finish assembly of FSX and FS9 with
6 monitors .... with the latest graphic card ( 2 pieces of asus 7970) on one cpu awesome view on 3 panasonic 32 in. LCD HDMI
and 3 touchscreen Dell 21 inches for main (MCP) , center pedestal, overhead panel.
time to take to the next level of simulation.Motion! looking for buddies to share this passion.
Capt Zaharie Ahmad Shah
BOEING 777 MALAYSIA AIRLINES
zaharies@hotmail.com

Time to take to the next level of simulation...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 16:26:47 and read 60141 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 206):
It's time to start thinking and investigating non-conventional and irrational theories, like dimensions in the atmosphere that science never knew it existed

I'm afraid you've been beaten to the punch:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/mal...nds-investigation-to-includ,35524/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2014-03-14 16:26:55 and read 60273 times.

Anyone notice that the Chinese govt has repeatedly attempted to shift focus away from searching the West by releasing information pointing at the original point of lost contact? Then that information is debunked... The "seismic sea floor event" being the latest distraction. Why would the Chinese do this?

Edited for too many ? marks

[Edited 2014-03-14 16:29:42]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mouldypete
Posted 2014-03-14 16:27:20 and read 60147 times.

The excellent summary prepared by rcair1 (Post 77 from thread 23) which is reproduced at the head of this thread makes it clear to me that we have no definitive proof that the aircraft continued flying after disappearing from the radar around 1:30am on the 8th. March.

"There are some reports ............ we do not know that it is the accident a/c......- We STILL do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns........- We have 'reports' of ........- There is confusion (and argument) about...etc."

I am trying to remain open minded but I still feel a land crash site on the Peninsula is highly possible.

Trin in his message 103 Thread 23 in refuting this, stated.

Quote: ALSO, the Malaysian peninsula is dotted with small communities and larger cities, along with roads. We are NOT talking about a deserted island with no communications here. A crash of a craft as large as the 777 would have undoubtedly been noticed.

I beg to differ.
Gunung Negara is over 7000' in height forming a formidable spine dividing the Peninsula and its slopes are not"dotted with small communities and larger cities, along with roads".
A look at the website http://masmap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=141
should quickly dispel that idea. There are large areas of very rugged, remote and uninhabited terrain. Plenty big enough to hide MH730 wreckage

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-14 16:31:18 and read 59354 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 210):
I'm afraid you've been beaten to the punch:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/mal...nds-investigation-to-includ,35524/

thanks for link, and good to know that someone is looking into those possibilities into the unseen world to the naked eye

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PW100
Posted 2014-03-14 16:31:31 and read 59325 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 192):
One thing I haven't seen explored is the significant possibility that the CVR and DFDR would have had their breakers pulled early in the proceedings...

Apart from how one would explore such a thing without having access to these unit, how would explore that issue help finding the plane . . . ?

I continue to read a load of exploring into many theories, most of them won't add one bit of information to find the plane.
It seems to me that at this point all effort should be focused on finding the (pieces of) plane, before going into further detail as to why and how it disappeared.

PW100

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-14 16:32:20 and read 59263 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 209):

For someone whose work schedule is confidential, this guy is not too worried about personal exposure. Not that I'm judging him, per se, just commenting a little on how difficult it may or may not be to identify and track a potential victim/pilot.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-14 16:32:40 and read 59197 times.

Quoting CityhopperNL (Reply 194):
So I just hope they have a clue about which sea it will be in in that scenario, be it the entire northern Indian ocean. Once you know that, you can bring in naval equipment (and in particular, that of the US, hopefully). With marine technology being probably the most phenomenal military technology of all you'd still have a high probability of finding the plane before the signals die out.

Naturally we hope for this to happen, but I don't see any reason to be so optimistic. AF447 ended up relatively near the last known position, yet nobody was able to pick up the pings from the black boxes...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-14 16:33:32 and read 59082 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 211):

couldn't agree more.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-14 16:34:00 and read 59105 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 210):
I'm afraid you've been beaten to the punch:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/mal...nds-investigation-to-includ,35524/

:D
Needed that one

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-14 16:34:27 and read 59058 times.

First time poster, long time lurker.

I joined to ask a question about the oil rig worker and his sighting. It has kept me up at night because of its level of detail.

With the new possible but unverified information that the aircraft climbed to 45,000 feet, is it possible the object he saw could have been it? He guessed it was headed west. Is it possible for him to see it? Could the plane have traveled far enough to the northeast before its (probable) sharp west turn?

I am guessing he was about 50 to 100 feet above the ocean's surface judging by the average oil rig height. How distant can an object 45,000 feet in the air be seen? It's been ages since I had trigonometry/geometry.

He said the flames went out. I've felt that meant it past over the horizon. Alternately, it could have been a meteor he saw.

(edited to change 41,000 to 45,000)

[Edited 2014-03-14 16:47:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ThunderboltDrgn
Posted 2014-03-14 16:34:42 and read 58924 times.

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 212):
I am trying to remain open minded but I still feel a land crash site on the Peninsula is highly possible.

I don't know but I assume that they already have searched the peninsula and besides with
the amount of air traffic going all over it, somebody would have spotted it by now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-14 16:38:50 and read 58429 times.

Quoting shortstack81 (Reply 219):

am with you on this and how quickly they discredit this witness and no one tried to push for a verification or an up close search into the oil spill also

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: BO__einG
Posted 2014-03-14 16:39:34 and read 58589 times.

I think Boeing needs to conduct a test flight using one of their aircraft and attempt to create a scenario where the crew does whatever possible to evade radar contact and perhaps even the ELT or the black boxes.
Do this as long as possible and even fly through radar coverage to see how the unknown pings look like. Could it be possible to create a flight pattern to show similar to what may of occured on MH370?

With 1 week past, it seems very remote of finding any evidence. Its like we need every spy satellite and Posidons or Orions and even Submarines to do a grid along the Indian Ocean. Are there any technology that could survey vast extents of the ocean such as the various expedition used to search for shipwrecks?
My speculation is that I too suspect it ventured in the Indian ocean somewhere. American Assets in Diego Garcia may have resources to contribute greatly to the search. Overall very intriguing and fascinating of what seems like an unprecedented event that nobody would of thought of..
Keeps reminding me of Lost!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: desh
Posted 2014-03-14 16:42:58 and read 57959 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 203):
And in fact; the answer is simple thanks to google   - http://www.deccanherald.com/content/21851/F

So, it has happened in the past where they have scrambled fighter jets.

To be honest - I'd be more worried of IAF over reacting rather than under reacting. That being said someone asked about why with all the radar coverage did India not react to an unidentified aircraft. MY guess is that it showed up in the middle of the Bay of Bengal , if it did at all , well away from any assets or potential targets. Bet they would have kept an eye on it and if it go any closer jets would have been sent out. The flying time from that tip of the Bay to the East coast would be well over 2 hrs - since Port Blair is about a 2 hr flight from Chennai IIRC.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: timpdx
Posted 2014-03-14 16:43:34 and read 58208 times.

The new Gebco undersea map was just released, its a beauty in high resolution. Here is the undersea area of interest, I labeled the map with a few key countries.

http://i57.tinypic.com/mipi.jpg

Link to the whole map: http://www.gebco.net/data_and_products/gridded_bathymetry_data/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-14 16:44:40 and read 57876 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 211):
Anyone notice that the Chinese govt has repeatedly attempted to shift focus away from searching the West by releasing information pointing at the original point of lost contact? Then that information is debunked... The "seismic sea floor event" being the latest distraction. Why would the Chinese do this?

I dont know if the Chinese attempted to shift focus away from searching in the West deliberately, but their contributions seem not to have been helpful so far, so much is true.

Quoting shortstack81 (Reply 219):

Welcome on a.net. This report of the oil rig worker has been the only thing I read of a possible witness and I havent read anywhere it was dismissed as false, but also not that it is being followed up or commented on by officials.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: MSY-MSP
Posted 2014-03-14 16:47:21 and read 57500 times.

I think the evidence is leaning more towards this being an intentional act and not anything related to a mechanical failure.

The radar data, if the 45 to 23 and back up is to believed clearly shows that someone did something quite violent to the airframe. If it had been mechanical in nature the recovery at 23 doesn't make sense coupled with the complete lack of communication following the recovery.

Next the aircraft apparently follows know airways at FL295. This keeps the aircraft between FL290 and FL300 and out of the way of other aircraft. Thereby minimizing the risk of a midair collision with another aircraft.

This all leads to the only conclusion that the aircraft was completely fine and under the control of someone.

Now we hear that there are two proposed search areas to the west in the Bay of Bengal and off the coast of Indonesia. I love the CNN quote "You know its odd when saying its not the entire Indian Ocean is a good thing." This is where things get a little iffy for me. If they did turn south Why? The turn to the north makes sense. There is land there, places to go. The south is open ocean. I have a problem with the pilot suicide thing given the length of time the aircraft was flying after the change in course.

My 2 cents has the most likely direction north towards Burma. Possibly even making Burma. For some reason I have in my head that Burma isn't that advanced where cell towers and such have reached out into the rural areas. (I could be completely wrong though.) So it could be there. My other thought is that it continued flying west for quite some time, turning south to avoid India and Sri Lanka and made it to Socorta. Fuel would be the only issue with this theory, but would also take the plane into a hotbed of bad folks who would love to do bad things.

This is the strangest thing I have ever seen. If it did crash in the ocean, I doubt we will ever know the reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-14 16:49:55 and read 57729 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 190):
Quoting desh (Reply 186):Another request - someone had posted a helpful depth chart of the Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal many many threads ago ..if you read this would you please post it again ? I have googled for it and have not found one as good as that one.I had posted it earlier. Is this the one you are talking about? - http://oceana.org/en/explore/marine-...n-sea

I've updated my live map with a Gebco seafloor basemap and vector bathymetry. Free live map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934 You can change the basemaps and layers using the buttons at the top of the map...


Big version: Width: 1866 Height: 898 File size: 511kb



Can you let me know if it gives you what you are looking for?

[Edited map image]

[Edited 2014-03-14 17:02:16]

[Edited 2014-03-14 17:03:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: cougar15
Posted 2014-03-14 16:50:00 and read 57555 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 29):
Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 23):What is the likehood of a non-777 pilot could have landed at night in a non-standard airport with transponders OFF?What are the chances of a non 777 pilot making it into the cockpit after 9/11 ? How about very slim. You're more likely going to have one of the pilots hijacking the flight to seek asylum in places like Burma.

Agree on the Cockpit door, but those do ´tend to open´... never know " who is on the Crew"
Flying (capability to...) a 777 , well, there are certainly much more difficult ships out there, the T7 is an ´easy gem.....´, especially for someone with at least a certain Level of airmanship in his bones...! A gorgeous, 'easy to Skipper´ and comfortable aircraft for the Boys at the pointy end.....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2014-03-14 16:50:19 and read 57300 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 189):
Maybe imagining how this wreckage could potentially be the first commercial flight never found was appealing enough.

No, there were many, especially from 1946 and some 20 years forward.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerial_disappearances and scan "passenger flight".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2014-03-14 16:53:36 and read 57185 times.

I think Boeing should start marketing the 777 as the next generation of stealth bomber. huge payload, and clearly invisible to militaries.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-14 16:55:42 and read 56957 times.

Quoting MSY-MSP (Reply 226):
I doubt we will ever know the reason.

Even if it crashed into a deep ravine in the Indian Ocean and wont be found for a long time or never there will be some pieces of debris washed ashore somewhere. I think eventually this mystery will be solved.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 229):
No, there were many, especially from 1946 and some 20 years forward.

All are long time ago when technology was much less advanced.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2014-03-14 16:59:44 and read 56263 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 127):
Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 125):do you not believe that in the past seven days not ONE, SINGLE ship (cargo, merchant, fishing, military) crossed paths with any sort of debris in these areas...???? The Indian Ocean is very large and ships and 777s are very small.

Correct, of course. Many folks don't take into consideration the relative scale of things.

Quoting Indy (Reply 150):
But what? Was it a suicide mission? Was it an attempted large scale kidnapping for a later ransom demand? Was it for the theft of the equipment itself? So it leaves me with these questions. Who did it? Why? And where is the plane now?

Irrespective of the who/what/why (which may or may not be found out), we should also realize there is a very distinct possibility that remains may not be found soon, if ever. Witness Amelia Earhart, NWA2501 over Lake Michigan, the TBM flight (Bermuda Triangle), etc.

After reading through this mostly very interesting and informative thread....(but I must admit I probably skipped a couple of hundred or so posts)...some identifiable remains eventually may lead to a conclusion of where the a/c went down. Not getting "closure" is difficult, but sometimes (although very infrequently in aviation mishaps) never arrives. Maybe this tragic incident may be yet another case?

In the meantime, I'll mentally collate the vast number of "why" and "where" possibilities that you folks are presenting. Thanks.





























USER PROFILE

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: chrisrad
Posted 2014-03-14 16:59:53 and read 56217 times.

Of which most are small aircraft, or occurred 40-50 years ago with a tiny fraction of the technological power we have today.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 229):

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 189):
Maybe imagining how this wreckage could potentially be the first commercial flight never found was appealing enough.

No, there were many, especially from 1946 and some 20 years forward.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aerial_disappearances and scan "passenger flight".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 17:02:22 and read 55731 times.

Quoting na (Reply 231):
Even if it crashed into a deep ravine in the Indian Ocean and wont be found for a long time or never there will be some pieces of debris washed ashore somewhere. I think eventually this mystery will be solved.

Does anybody know of the main shipping lanes in the Indian Ocean? If it did crash into the water there I would guess that some floating debris might eventually be spotted by a ship in the area, that is, of course, it somebody on the ship saw it and it didn't land and sink in one or several large pieces... I think it would be helpful at this stage if all ships in waters within range kept somewhat of a look out for debris which I'm sure some are already doing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: desh
Posted 2014-03-14 17:03:04 and read 55854 times.

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 227):
Can you let me know if it gives you what you are looking for?

Yes it does. I was curious as to how deep the ocean goes. Seems water depth is comparable to where the Air France black box was found - but this, I think, is a seismically active area (seems there was a 5.5 mag rumble just a few hours ago) so wonder is the last know contact was anywhere near that area. Could make matters worse as far finding debris on the ocean floor is concerned perhaps ? **caveats re: plane crash being the possible outcome yada yada  **

Thanks for posting this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-14 17:12:18 and read 54618 times.

Quoting desh (Reply 235):
Yes it does. I was curious as to how deep the ocean goes. Seems water depth is comparable to where the Air France black box was found - but this, I think, is a seismically active area (seems there was a 5.5 mag rumble just a few hours ago) so wonder is the last know contact was anywhere near that area. Could make matters worse as far finding debris on the ocean floor is concerned perhaps ? **caveats re: plane crash being the possible outcome yada yada **

Thanks for posting this.

No problen - I've added the USGS earthquake map service to the layers list in the live map if you want to explore.

Cheers,

SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LandSweetLand
Posted 2014-03-14 17:16:20 and read 54113 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 234):
Does anybody know of the main shipping lanes in the Indian Ocean?

You can have a look at www.marinetraffic.com to see where broadcasting ships are at the moment. Unfortunately, like ads-b it requires stations to pick it up.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: gr325
Posted 2014-03-14 17:21:10 and read 53985 times.

6 minutes ago Flying With Fish send the following tweet.

"Flying With Fish ‏@flyingwithfish 6m
@TheLeadCNN On Tuesday I started tweeting about cargo x-ray being down at KUL, now it seems only #MH370 pushed without its cargo screened"

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-14 17:27:16 and read 52875 times.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 230):
I think Boeing should start marketing the 777 as the next generation of stealth bomber. huge payload, and clearly invisible to militaries.

If it weren't because you didn't mention the ultra-long range and the acrobatic capabilities I would think you are joking.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-14 17:27:42 and read 53094 times.

Ok.... I am not a fan of spreading around some (new) theories, but what if:
There was a pilot en route in the jumpseat, similar as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

That would answer also some questions.
Are pilots who are travelling on the jumpseat registered somewhere? Are they on the passenger list?

[Edited 2014-03-14 17:31:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 17:33:15 and read 52195 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 234):
Does anybody know of the main shipping lanes in the Indian Ocean?
http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/e...gallery/Map_Strategic_Passages.pdf

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: airplanebrain
Posted 2014-03-14 17:35:35 and read 51890 times.

On a 777, how long will the CVR continue before being overrun? If the plane flew 4 hours past its disappearance, is possible that we will never hear what happened in the cockpit because the CVR recorded over itself.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-14 17:37:32 and read 51610 times.

Quoting desh (Reply 223):
To be honest - I'd be more worried of IAF over reacting rather than under reacting. That being said someone asked about why with all the radar coverage did India not react to an unidentified aircraft. MY guess is that it showed up in the middle of the Bay of Bengal , if it did at all , well away from any assets or potential targets. Bet they would have kept an eye on it and if it go any closer jets would have been sent out. The flying time from that tip of the Bay to the East coast would be well over 2 hrs - since Port Blair is about a 2 hr flight from Chennai IIRC.

Land based primary radar coverage goes out only 60NM. So that is a problem if you have large water bodies like Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean. To mitigate this risk, Indian Air Force uses 5xAWACS and Navy uses Maritime Air Patrol aircraft like 8xTU-142s/3xP8-I and 5xIL-38s. There are Maritime Patrol ships by navy and coast guard. Army has close to 200 drones. Apart from these there are 2 radar imaging satellites RISAT-1 & 2, these are all weather capable spy satellites, can look through clouds.

After Mumbai incident India vastly improved maritime patrol, but without P8-Is it basically depends on land based radar and 50NM buffer is not enough to react in time. That's another reason India and Boeing are buddies.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 764
Posted 2014-03-14 17:39:41 and read 51500 times.

About those reports of the aircraft climbing and descending erratically: I assume that is not based on GPS data but other measurements. Considering that something was fishy with the flight and we quite possibly had electronic malfunctions or disagreements between systems, these measurements may well be random and useless.

This is one of those times when I wish I was able to hack into the satellites and just get the raw data. I'm sure we'd be able to figure it out in no time.... (well, maybe that's wishful thinking   But I still want the data....)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 17:42:25 and read 51286 times.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 230):

I think Boeing should start marketing the 777 as the next generation of stealth bomber. huge payload, and clearly invisible to militaries.

The 2nd best post so far in 20+ threads. The best one has been the 777 climbing into outer space.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 17:42:54 and read 50874 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 243):
Land based primary radar coverage goes out only 60NM.

What about active phased array radar and OTH radar? Surely there's enough of those in the region, especially India.


Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 243):
Apart from these there are 2 radar imaging satellites RISAT-1 & 2, these are all weather capable spy satellites, can look through clouds.

OK but radar imaging is NOT radar surveillance in the aviation sense. They cannot track anything like that, it is just for imaging. 2 imaging satellites will not help them patrol the skies around their border.

[Edited 2014-03-14 17:47:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-14 17:46:44 and read 50621 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 112):
how long are we going to keep throwing money at this?

Many countries are worried that the airplane landed somewhere and can be used as a delivery system with bad bombs inside. The plane has to be found.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 149):
This whole investigation is quite dynamic and confusing.

Not if you discount the theory that the plane was hijacked by someone who knows how to fly and operate a 777. The daily unfolding of information is making that theory more and more likely

Quoting billreid (Reply 132):
NY Times states the aircraft climbed to FL450. That is peculiar. I don't know how easy it is to get a B777 to well above its service ceiling of FL410.
Quoting noflies (Reply 184):
Considering latest unconfirmed report that it climbed to 45k, above approved altitude limit and made a sharp turn dropped to 23k feet, then back up to 29.5K feet...

If that turns out to be true (and who knows what's true and what's not at the moment), does that make sense to anyone in any kind of scenario?

What could have happened is that the hijacker manually set the pressurization system to depressurize the cabin. Flying violently up and down by the pilot (hijacker) could explain the potential forcing of the cockpit door by passengers and crew from the outside. The violent movement would make them lose their footing while the cabin was depressurizing.

[Edited 2014-03-14 17:50:31]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-14 17:47:18 and read 50568 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 245):
The best one has been the 777 climbing into outer space.

Hahahaha definitely no.1!!

However the one mentioned today about that the T7 would have entered a different time dimension is heading to my top3....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ksbd
Posted 2014-03-14 17:50:22 and read 50160 times.

The altitude changes seem reminiscent of JAL 123. Since the service ceiling is 41000, there is no real benefit for a hijacker (or otherwise) to ascend to that flight level. Maybe a midair collision that did not result in a total loss, followed by a rapid decompression, followed by a last ditch effort to change course back to known land (under the effects of hypoxia?).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-14 17:52:24 and read 49911 times.

Quoting airplanebrain (Reply 242):
On a 777, how long will the CVR continue before being overrun? If the plane flew 4 hours past its disappearance, is possible that we will never hear what happened in the cockpit because the CVR recorded over itself.

Interesting point. Could explain why the aircraft flew for four hours after a possible "take-over" - to make sure no recordings will be found that document the take-over. So anyone witn positive knowledge how long the recordings will last before being overrun?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Mul
Posted 2014-03-14 17:52:24 and read 49775 times.

Can a satellite phone be used while on the plane? I wonder if the govts have checked for any sat phone records to figure out any communications made.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: cptkrell
Posted 2014-03-14 17:52:40 and read 49937 times.

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 233):
Of which most are small aircraft, or occurred 40-50 years ago with a tiny fraction of the technological power we have today.

Unfortunately today's technological power have produced about zero results in the past week.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 17:52:56 and read 49988 times.

Quoting ksbd (Reply 249):
Maybe a midair collision that did not result in a total loss

Then we would be looking for a 2nd aircraft. Who would be in the flight levels other than airliners? Malaysia apparently had them on PSR right from LKP at IGARI, they would know if someone else was there.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-14 17:53:06 and read 50333 times.

According to CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/14/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) they are now offically looking in the indian ovean itself.

Quote:
The analysis used radar data and satellite pings to calculate that the plane diverted to the west, across the Malayan peninsula, and then either flew in a northwest direction toward the Bay of Bengal or southwest into the Indian Ocean.

So the plane made a turn either to the north or the south... Hmmm interesting before I go to sleep!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tockeyhockey
Posted 2014-03-14 17:54:10 and read 49760 times.

just a theory, but what if there was a fire in the cockpit that took out most relevant systems, but was controlled in time to keep the autopilot active. maybe the fire was something not quite as bad as this:

http://avherald.com/img/egypt_b772_su-gdb_cairo_110729_1.jpg

the plane kept flying without a cockpit. is that possible?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 17:54:57 and read 49682 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 250):
Interesting point. Could explain why the aircraft flew for four hours after a possible "take-over" - to make sure no recordings will be found that document the take-over. So anyone witn positive knowledge how long the recordings will last before being overrun?

I believe it would be specific to the model of CVR used on the accident a/c. The minimum legal requirement is 30 minutes. I don't know what standard equipment for the CVR is on a 777, or if the buyer can choose. It could record more.

It does surprise me that we can have FDRs that record a crapton of data for 50+ hours, but CVRs are still in the stone age. Maybe privacy concerns? Recording cockpit jabber from a previous flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 17:57:12 and read 49585 times.

In regards to the hypoxia theory, that the plane just kept flying until it ran out of fuel... Is there something, like how trains have a "dead man's switch" that needs to be manually activated every so often as to confirm that the pilots are still alive? I don't think there is but I am no expert. If there is not, and the combination of auto-pilot / hypoxia scenario is possible (Helios, Payne Stewart)... could it be an idea that something similar to a dead man's switch is fitted to aircraft so that, for instance, every 15 or 30 mins, especially with the auto-pilot on or if it detects that no switches / buttons in the cockpit have been used, the pilot then gets an alert and then has to manually press a button to confirm that somebody is still alive at the controls? If this did not occur, and the pilot failed to acknowledge after so many warnings, a message could be relayed to the ground automatically that nobody in the cockpit is responding... Just a thought...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 17:57:29 and read 49535 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
It's not our place to do that. Imagine if there was a plane crash in Iowa and when our investigation stalled, Russia instead just started holding press conferences about it and announcing their findings. How offensive would that be?

So to be clear, you are suggesting that not offending the local bureaucrats is a higher priority than conducting the most effective search, rescue, and recovery.

Another thing. Malaysia isn't the United States and the United States isn't Russia. If it offends the Malaysians that we have far more resources and capabilities to conduct a search, then who honestly cares?

Malaysia is a sovereign country. You can't just go stomp all over their sovereignty. Diplomacy is often frustrating, but it is better than the alternative.

Besides, we don't know that effort has not been as effective as it could be. All we know is that press relations have been bad, but improving.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 94):
Just out of curiosity, is it possible for the pilot to disconnect the CVR on the 777?

If foul play did happen, I hope that this did not occur like what had happened to MI 185

Sure. Just a CB.

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 130):
How far could that plane have flown on one engine? Would that have extended it's range?

Flying on one engine means you can't keep altitude and have to drift down to a lower altitude. This and drag effects means significantly reduced range.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 154):
can the autopilot store multiple routes at once? Like say for example, lets say the pilot or co-pilot had programmed this route that we now know took the plane to the indian ocean, but then they just kept it stored away? They fly the normal climb out from KL but then at the handoff point, it gets switched over to the other route? Is that possible?

First off, the autopilot does not store routes. That's done by the Flight Management Computer. The autopilot can take inputs from the FMC. But yes, you can store routes there. But what would be the point? You can punch in a new route by hand in a few minutes.

Quoting eal46859 (Reply 160):
Why does the Transponder on any commercial airliner even have the ability to be turned off ? Is there a reason or situation that a commercial airliner would not want to have the transponder on?
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 166):
What should NOT be possible is completely disabling the transponder while in flight. Perhaps that will be something we see changed if we can figure out what happened here.

Asked and answered but I'll summarize again.
1. At ATC request to lower saturation.
2. During maintenance when the plane is powered up without the intent of movement.
3. Power cycling the transponder to "reboot" if it has a fault.
4. To isolate it in case of electrical malfunction. Just like every other electrical gizmo on the plane, the circuit breaker can be pulled. This is a safety feature to prevent and mitigate electrical fires and other issues.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 189):
I am not a psychologist myself but I wonder if somehow with a depersonalization or derealization disorder could just decide to put in practice what he made in the simulator. At the end that simulator seemed really accurate and the pilot could please himself as he wanted at home. Are those simulations recorded?

As far as I can tell, the home sim was running Microsoft Flight Simulator. You can record sessions but the default is "off".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 456
Posted 2014-03-14 17:57:34 and read 49435 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 256):
Maybe privacy concerns?

Yeah it might be privay, however I hpe that safety (or solving an incident in order to increase safety) would be more important than safety.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 18:00:48 and read 48955 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 112):

I've been following the threads and am intrigued by the number of possible scenarios that went on that night. It's sad that we have no clue what happened. We're just entering day 7 and I've been thinking - how long are we going to keep throwing money at this? Sure, it's in everyone's best interest to find out what happened so we can improve. But a lot of resources have gone into this already and there's probably more on the line. So what happens if, 7 days from now, we're in the same position (i.e, nowhere)? How long is SAR expected to continue for before they deem it vanished?

The SAR effort will likely continue for years if the plane is not found. However it will be severely scaled back.

Yes, it will cost money, but in the grand scheme of things not much. Someone mentioned that the entire AF447 recovery effort cost US$40m. That's less than a half of what a new 777 costs. The insurance companies and Boeing have a good incentive to foot the bill.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-14 18:00:49 and read 48948 times.

I wonder how much this singular event will change the way airlines and manufacturers "fool proof" comms/tracking systms for the future?

This is the largest aviation event/anomaly we've seen since 9/11.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-14 18:00:58 and read 48971 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 246):
What about active phased array radar and OTH radar? Surely there's enough of those in the region, especially India.

When the target is silent only thing helps is how powerful your radar is. rcair1 explained it earlier. Airborne Warning Systems are more popular than land based OTH radars. India's surveillance assets are concentrated in North and Arabian Sea. They are improving in Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean. It is getting 9 more P8-Is.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 246):
OK but radar imaging is NOT radar surveillance in the aviation sense. They cannot track anything like that, it is just for imaging.

Not for real time tracking but for later screening and SAR ops. If you have a regular imaging satellite you don't know what is under the cloud, you have to wait for next scan of same are without cloud. Radar imaging satellites don't have that issue.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 246):
2 imaging satellites will not help them patrol the skies around their border.

Well, there are only 5 countries in the world with that capability.

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:12:20]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ksbd
Posted 2014-03-14 18:01:20 and read 49015 times.

Quote:
Quoting ksbd (Reply 249):
Maybe a midair collision that did not result in a total loss

Then we would be looking for a 2nd aircraft. Who would be in the flight levels other than airliners? Malaysia apparently had them on PSR right from LKP at IGARI, they would know if someone else was there.

I'm talking about a possible midair with maybe a drone, missile, military aircraft or rear pressure bulkhead explosion. I see no reason for a 777 to ascend 45000 feet without some sort of mechanical problem. Also flying at 23000 does not make much sense either and also fits the JAL 123 example.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 18:02:26 and read 48958 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 211):
Anyone notice that the Chinese govt has repeatedly attempted to shift focus away from searching the West by releasing information pointing at the original point of lost contact? Then that information is debunked... The "seismic sea floor event" being the latest distraction. Why would the Chinese do this?

I have made this point the whole time. First the Satellite images. Then the seismic activity. But then again, I got REEMED for being xenophobic and irrational.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 18:05:17 and read 48601 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 262):
Not for real time tracking but for later screening and SAR ops. If you have a regular imaging satellite you don't know what is under the cloud, you have to wait for next scan of same are without cloud. Radar imaging satellites don't have that issue.

This is true.

Also, space-based radar surveillance is not a science fiction concept, we just wouldn't know if anyone has built one. The power required would be immense.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-14 18:07:18 and read 48389 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 258):

First off, the autopilot does not store routes. That's done by the Flight Management Computer. The autopilot can take inputs from the FMC. But yes, you can store routes there. But what would be the point? You can punch in a new route by hand in a few minutes.

ah okay, yeah the FMC, that's what i meant to say  . Thanks for the clarification  . Why i asked is that the turn was pretty sharp; almost instantaneous, after that handoff...so maybe the route was ready to go instead of someone taking the time to input the routes. I mean whoever did it, has to know what the waypoints are, what airway it is, where it goes, etc, etc....this really seems to me that it was either one of the two up front or somebody on the manifest that has flight experience.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 18:07:50 and read 48392 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 262):
When the target is silent only thing helps is how powerful your radar is.

Also - right, I'm aware, but military has power... The modern phased arrays are highly sensitive and can accurately calculate altitude, as far as I know. When target is up high, range is very high too... Would airborne be flying 24/7, and what would they range be like?

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:09:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 18:08:00 and read 48447 times.

Quoting Stretch (Reply 261):
I wonder how much this singular event will change the way airlines and manufacturers "fool proof" comms/tracking systms for the future?

What do you think about this idea I proposed below? Assuming something similar is not already in use...

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 257):
In regards to the hypoxia theory, that the plane just kept flying until it ran out of fuel... Is there something, like how trains have a "dead man's switch" that needs to be manually activated every so often as to confirm that the pilots are still alive? I don't think there is but I am no expert. If there is not, and the combination of auto-pilot / hypoxia scenario is possible (Helios, Payne Stewart)... could it be an idea that something similar to a dead man's switch is fitted to aircraft so that, for instance, every 15 or 30 mins, especially with the auto-pilot on or if it detects that no switches / buttons in the cockpit have been used, the pilot then gets an alert and then has to manually press a button to confirm that somebody is still alive at the controls? If this did not occur, and the pilot failed to acknowledge after so many warnings, a message could be relayed to the ground automatically that nobody in the cockpit is responding... Just a thought...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-14 18:09:25 and read 48273 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 265):

Also, space-based radar surveillance is not a science fiction concept, we just wouldn't know if anyone has built one. The power required would be immense.

Weren't the Soviets and the US trying to do this during the Cold War?...i swear i read about this somewhere....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-14 18:10:15 and read 48123 times.

I don't believe that the plane landed, but I like the thought of it. Just curious: how hard is it to change the fixed 24-bit ide tification code for Mode-s transponder. Would it be possible to re-enable the transponder only to appear like a completely different aircraft/flight? Again this is not something I believe has happened, just a thought that crossed my mind  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 18:12:11 and read 47833 times.

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 236):
No problen - I've added the USGS earthquake map service to the layers list in the live map if you want to explore.

You're maps are great. I put together a map for figuring out where the Tomnod images were, but your map takes the cake. Thank you.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-14 18:13:21 and read 47823 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 256):
I believe it would be specific to the model of CVR used on the accident a/c. The minimum legal requirement is 30 minutes. I don't know what standard equipment for the CVR is on a 777, or if the buyer can choose. It could record more.

I think its union driven but on CNN they said two hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 18:14:40 and read 47587 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 269):
Weren't the Soviets and the US trying to do this during the Cold War?...i swear i read about this somewhere....

The Soviets put some in LEO with nuclear reactors. With LEO for constant surveillance of a large area you need a huge constellation. With geostationary orbit, you'd need absolutely incredible amounts of power due to R^4. It's physically possible, though I doubt it has been attempted recently. I'm sure heat would be a concern.

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:17:29]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 18:17:50 and read 47322 times.

I'm sure the sonar guys on on the U.S.S. Kidd will be working around the clock.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-14 18:17:53 and read 47324 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 211):
Anyone notice that the Chinese govt has repeatedly attempted to shift focus away from searching the West by releasing information pointing at the original point of lost contact? Then that information is debunked... The "seismic sea floor event" being the latest distraction.


They want to normalize the use of their military in that area, which is highly disputed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-14 18:18:25 and read 47084 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 257):
In regards to the hypoxia theory, that the plane just kept flying until it ran out of fuel... Is there something, like how trains have a "dead man's switch" that needs to be manually activated every so often as to confirm that the pilots are still alive? I don't think there is but I am no expert. If there is not, and the combination of auto-pilot / hypoxia scenario is possible (Helios, Payne Stewart)... could it be an idea that something similar to a dead man's switch is fitted to aircraft so that, for instance, every 15 or 30 mins, especially with the auto-pilot on or if it detects that no switches / buttons in the cockpit have been used, the pilot then gets an alert and then has to manually press a button to confirm that somebody is still alive at the controls? If this did not occur, and the pilot failed to acknowledge after so many warnings, a message could be relayed to the ground automatically that nobody in the cockpit is responding... Just a thought...

Something along that line may work, but we have to plan a way to "prove" the authenticity of this action. Who pushed the button, and are they in complete control of the aircraft. Press the switch and smile for the camera?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 18:19:20 and read 47306 times.

Quoting ksbd (Reply 249):
The altitude changes seem reminiscent of JAL 123. Since the service ceiling is 41000, there is no real benefit for a hijacker (or otherwise) to ascend to that flight level. Maybe a midair collision that did not result in a total loss, followed by a rapid decompression, followed by a last ditch effort to change course back to known land (under the effects of hypoxia?).

Service ceiling is 43,100 feet, according to several sources.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-14 18:19:25 and read 47265 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 274):

I'm sure the sonar guys on on the U.S.S. Kidd will be working around the clock.

Wonder what the sonar range is. Also, won't adding submarines to the search make sense too?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Stitch
Posted 2014-03-14 18:20:30 and read 47049 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 273):
The Soviets put some in LEO with nuclear reactors.

But their RORSATS only had the imaging power to find large ships and task forces, not a 777 in flight.

A US Lacrosse bird might be able to do it, but not sure how well it would image against the ocean.

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:24:20]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 18:22:32 and read 46785 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 278):
Wonder what the sonar range is. Also, won't adding submarines to the search make sense too?

It'd have to be active sonar. Range is shoddy and won't help much if the aircraft is lying in the trench. Subs can do better (they can go below the layer with active sonar) but ultimately, if they don't find it in short order, they'll have to bring someone like Robert Ballard/Woods Hole. I should not have to tell everyone the list of accomplishments of that group.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 279):
But their RORSATS only had the imaging power to find large ships and task forces, not a 777 in flight.

Boeing's FIA (successor to Lacrosse) could probably accomplish this, but there's only one. Who knows what else might be in orbit that is classified that could do it on a constant scale. LaCrosse has the ability to monitor ground vehicles, but I don't think it does atmospheric vehicles well.

Most of the focus in this area is on BMD, which would not need to be as close as a tactical/theater-wide system for monitoring air that one would use in this case.

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:26:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 18:22:50 and read 46789 times.

Quoting Stretch (Reply 276):
Something along that line may work, but we have to plan a way to "prove" the authenticity of this action. Who pushed the button, and are they in complete control of the aircraft. Press the switch and smile for the camera?

I'm not suggesting it as a means to alert the ground to hi-jacking, but as a means to rule out hypoxia and know that somebody is flying the plane and that the plane is not just flying on auto-pilot until empty.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-14 18:23:16 and read 46832 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 278):
Wonder what the sonar range is. Also, won't adding submarines to the search make sense too?

wouldn't doubt there are a couple SSBNs in the water....i'm sure there always are. As far as i know, they usually don't announce if there is a sub there or not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-14 18:24:06 and read 46645 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 279):
But their RORSATS only had the imaging power to find large ships and task forces, not a 777 in flight.

No doubt, but they were designed in the 60s! We have highly sensitive receivers and enough compute power to throw at filtering noise now. Anyhow, it would be nice if someone were to build it again. These sorts of things certainly wouldn't happen anymore.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ksbd
Posted 2014-03-14 18:24:59 and read 46634 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 277):
Service ceiling is 43,100 feet, according to several sources.

43,100 feet is still not 45,000 feet.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PDXflyer31
Posted 2014-03-14 18:25:35 and read 47041 times.

I have a theory.

The plane was flown to Burma. Its being taken apart and shipped to China in crates, to be reverse engineered. China did this before with an A319/320 that disappeared off the books maybe 10 years ago, although pax were not involved in that one. Why would the Chinese gov't pick a loaded plane that's already flying to China, carrying 150+ Chinese nationals? Because nobody would suspect them. Its perfect. And they're doing it with another country's plane, so they wouldn't have to coerce/pay off one of their own airlines like they most likely did with that Airbus.

The captain or first officer - whichever one the Chinese gov't paid off - now has millions of dollars and a new identity in China. The Myanmar (Burma) gov't is in on it. The pax? There would not be any place for them in this scenario, unfortunately.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-14 18:26:26 and read 46501 times.

Quoting LandSweetLand (Reply 237):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 234):Does anybody know of the main shipping lanes in the Indian Ocean?You can have a look at www.marinetraffic.com to see where broadcasting ships are at the moment. Unfortunately, like ads-b it requires stations to pick it up.

I added a shippings lanes map service to the map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934

Its not really great, but it is interesting.

SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-14 18:28:23 and read 46240 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 281):
I'm not suggesting it as a means to alert the ground to hi-jacking, but as a means to rule out hypoxia and know that somebody is flying the plane and that the plane is not just flying on auto-pilot until empty.

I see what you're getting at. How about a simple O2 sensor then? If below x amount of O2 signal sent as an alert to the ground

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-14 18:28:49 and read 46202 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 271):
You're maps are great. I put together a map for figuring out where the Tomnod images were, but your map takes the cake. Thank you.

Thanks! If you have coordinates and url links for any of the Tomnod images I can add them...

SoCalGeo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 18:29:39 and read 46291 times.

Quoting PDXflyer31 (Reply 285):
The plane was flown to Burma. Its being taken apart and shipped to China in crates, to be reverse engineered. China did this before with an A319/320 that disappeared off the books maybe 10 years ago, although pax were not involved in that one.

I have been saying the same thing as a theory (not that I believe it, but as a theory) since Part 7 for almost the exact same reasoning you have and was crowned Xenophobic and irrational by most.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 18:29:49 and read 46307 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 282):
wouldn't doubt there are a couple SSBNs in the water....i'm sure there always are. As far as i know, they usually don't announce if there is a sub there or not.

Let's see...we have around 50 active SSNs...or let's use a strategic asset like an SSBN...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-14 18:30:07 and read 46189 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 257):

I cant comment on MAS procedures...but I do know that on some airlines, cabin crew are REQUIRED to make call the flight deck via the interphone (the handsets you see at every crew seat..and in galley areas) at least every 30mins...and IF there is no response by the flight deck, then there are 'next steps' that cabin crew take...sorry I cant explain more..its security sensitive info....so IF the cabin crew were still conscious...the flight deck crew only needs to tell the cabin crew that 'everything is fine...' and the cabin crew is none the wiser...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 18:30:35 and read 46040 times.

Quoting Stretch (Reply 287):

I see what you're getting at. How about a simple O2 sensor then? If below x amount of O2 signal sent as an alert to the ground

ACARS probably reports, or can report, cabin pressure.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 18:31:13 and read 46253 times.

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 288):
Thanks! If you have coordinates and url links for any of the Tomnod images I can add them...
http://mh370.exodus.vyinnovation.com - you probably know how to pull it from the source code, but if not, I can send it to you in a CSV if you want.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 18:34:04 and read 45706 times.

Sonar range of the Kidd is unknown to me, its most likely classified. I'm sure we sent at least a few submarines to the area, who have classified, top-notch sonar. Those things can pick up voices on another submarine miles away.

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:35:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: infinit
Posted 2014-03-14 18:36:04 and read 45557 times.

Quoting PDXflyer31 (Reply 285):

Burma/Myanmar is chairing ASEAN this year for the first time ever.
Part of the reason Burma was able to reform so quickly was its inclusion in ASEAN which gave it some economic and political security. They're not going to do anything to jeopordise that

http://asean2014.gov.mm/2014-chairmanship

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-14 18:36:19 and read 45667 times.

If the aircraft is where the U.S. Navy is searching, we will find it, probably this weekend. Time is of the essence because of the time limit of the black box beacon

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 18:36:32 and read 45634 times.

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 291):
I cant comment on MAS procedures...but I do know that on some airlines, cabin crew are REQUIRED to make call the flight deck via the interphone (the handsets you see at every crew seat..and in galley areas) at least every 30mins...and IF there is no response by the flight deck, then there are 'next steps' that cabin crew take...sorry I cant explain more..its security sensitive info....so IF the cabin crew were still conscious...the flight deck crew only needs to tell the cabin crew that 'everything is fine...' and the cabin crew is none the wiser...

As long as the cabin crew were able to get a message to the ground that sounds good. The thing about this mystery is that nobody on the ground knows much.

Quoting Stretch (Reply 287):
I see what you're getting at. How about a simple O2 sensor then? If below x amount of O2 signal sent as an alert to the ground

That would be useful, but it still wouldn't alert the ground if anybody was alive. If a button had to be pressed, and it was pressed, then somebody would have to be pressing it indicating life in the cockpit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Dreadnought
Posted 2014-03-14 18:43:31 and read 44927 times.

Quoting PDXflyer31 (Reply 285):
The plane was flown to Burma. Its being taken apart and shipped to China in crates, to be reverse engineered. China did this before with an A319/320 that disappeared off the books maybe 10 years ago, although pax were not involved in that one. Why would the Chinese gov't pick a loaded plane that's already flying to China, carrying 150+ Chinese nationals? Because nobody would suspect them. Its perfect. And they're doing it with another country's plane, so they wouldn't have to coerce/pay off one of their own airlines like they most likely did with that Airbus.

Why would they do that? China owns dozens of 777s, if not a hundred or more. They have more than enough to study.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2014-03-14 18:45:10 and read 44753 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 199):
I meant passenger flight... certainly cargo is commercial too.

Partial list of missing passenger commercial flights that vanished without a trace...just off the top of my head.

1938 - Hawaii Clipper, Pan American Airways

1948 - Star Tiger, BSAA Avro Tudor

1949 - Star Ariel, BSAA Avro Tudor

1951 - Canadian Pacific DC-4

1953 - Skyways of London Avro York

1962 - Flying Tigers Super Constellation

If you meant passenger JET airliner, then MH 370 would be the first if it remains missing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Stitch
Posted 2014-03-14 18:45:30 and read 44756 times.

Quoting PDXflyer31 (Reply 285):
The plane was flown to Burma. Its being taken apart and shipped to China in crates, to be reverse engineered.
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 289):
I have been saying the same thing as a theory (not that I believe it, but as a theory) since Part 7 for almost the exact same reasoning you have and was crowned Xenophobic and irrational by most.

Far easier to just write-off one of their own 777s in an "accident" (say like what happened to that Etihad A340-600) and just scrap it on site and look at it that way.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-14 18:49:10 and read 44444 times.

Significant Lithium battery shipment in cargo.

Sorry I didn't see this posted and did a search. NYT says there was a significant lithium battery shipment in the cargo.
Fire - partial disabling of many electronics - attempts to save plane including via oxygen starvation.
Seems the most likely scenario to me.
It would also validate the oil rig witness. A Boeing expert said "fire" was one reason the transponders could go out the way they did. A turn back to penang as the nearest airport and attempted descent but perhaps control and nav was so impacted they decided to go north, knowing they had fuel, while working out how to get back more control.

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:54:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: lweber557
Posted 2014-03-14 18:50:25 and read 44363 times.

Quoting PDXflyer31 (Reply 285):

If the Chinese wanted to reverse engineer a 777 it would be alot easier to just "borrow" one from a Chinese airline then to pay off a pilot from another country and fly it to Burma. I'm pretty sure the chinese government could acquire an aircraft from one of its airlines for free just by demanding so. What about the passengers that weren't Chinese? Would they just be executed and never heard from again?

If there was any kind of hijacking done by Chinese people it would have been done by the terrorist group that has been responsible for those knife attacks. But if it had been hijacked whatever group responsible would have claimed responsibility by now.

Its all speculation but I'm narrowing it down to pilot suicide in a remote location or some kind of freak error chain that took the aircraft off course and into the sea.

[Edited 2014-03-14 18:53:13]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 18:50:35 and read 44272 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 300):
Far easier to just write-off one of their own 777s in an "accident" (say like what happened to that Etihad A340-600) and just scrap it on site and look at it that way.

I'll give you the fake accident was the only thing someone suggested that made sense as a simpler method. I think their idea was a hanger fire. So I'll give you that. Still think that might raise some eyebrows and unwanted attention. But your suggestion is a reasonable counter to the theory for sure.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-14 18:51:11 and read 44232 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 290):

Isn't there always a SSBN on patrol in each ocean? I'm sure there are SSN's in the area as well..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-14 18:53:25 and read 44050 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 297):

my post is based on my theory that I posted many posts ago! im not going to repeat the whole thing...way too much repetition already!!

in a nut shell...ONE pilot took control...flew aircraft over Indian Ocean...and took a dive into it.....the HOW and WHY will only be revealed AFTER / IF the aircraft is found

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-14 18:54:04 and read 44270 times.

Quoting PDXflyer31 (Reply 285):

I think it's more likely that the Chinese government blew the plane out of the skies to avoid another potential 9/11 rather than this elaborate scheme. Why reverse engineer a 12-year old 777 when China Southern and Hainan and many other Asian carriers are already flying 787s?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: audioace87
Posted 2014-03-14 18:57:11 and read 43937 times.

https://twitter.com/Johan_Jaaffar/status/444615514568929280/photo/1

I have seen this in the thread yet. Aparently the NST broke their big news on the front page, validating what we mostly already figured out based on sketchy reports. I've been reading and studying aviation disasters for the last 10 years.. I for one am totally mind=blown on this one…

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 19:00:01 and read 43508 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 304):
Isn't there always a SSBN on patrol in each ocean? I'm sure there are SSN's in the area as well..

US SSBNs can hit their targets the moment they leave port. There's no reason for them to be in the Indian Ocean. There are usually several each in the Pacific and Atlantic, but their whole mission is to hide until needed. Why would they expose themselves in this manner?

I wouldn't be surprised if there's an SSN or two in the area, likely one of the Guam-based subs.

The fact of the matter is that the US has ships built specifically for this purpose, and we've used them before (Thresher, Scorpion, K-129, Titanic, AF447, etc.) Except for K-129, most of the high-profile deep sea finds have been done by Ballard and/or Woods Hole, and done with US Navy involvement. (Titanic was done as a cover story for operations on Thresher and Scorpion.)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Stitch
Posted 2014-03-14 19:02:12 and read 43083 times.

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 305):
in a nut shell...ONE pilot took control...flew aircraft over Indian Ocean...and took a dive into it.....the HOW and WHY will only be revealed AFTER / IF the aircraft is found

Well if they wanted to ditch it in deep water to make it harder to discover what happened, that does make some sense. But if it was a suicide, I would think just doing it "anywhere" would work as well and the quicker they did the deed, the less chance of interference from others aboard.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: gulfstream650
Posted 2014-03-14 19:08:52 and read 42252 times.

Mods- please can we have a new thread. Thanks

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-14 19:11:25 and read 42052 times.

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 310):
But if it was a suicide, I would think just doing it "anywhere" would work as well and the quicker they did the deed, the less chance of interference from others aboard.

Exactly, Well said.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-14 19:12:16 and read 41921 times.

only one post so far, in all these topics, apart from mine with the word lithium in it, according to google. Sorry I might be wrong on that but I did a search.

I find that incredible.

The plane had one or more pallets of lithium batteries in the cargo manifest and nobody is discussing how that is the most likely and simplest cause? It was loaded ok but moved in flight, started heating up. The fire spread. Lithium battery fires are unstoppable until the lithium is exhausted, and a fire is unpredictable. It doesn't take out the whole plane structure, it removes flooring, burns cable bundles. Leaves the plane in an uncertain state. The turnback was when the cargo fire light came on, by the time they decided to squawk emergency the critical systems were out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-14 19:13:22 and read 41842 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 309):

..... the 'workings' of an individuals mind is harder to decipher.... there's a thing called 'Asian pride' and 'saving face' in this part of the world....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Stitch
Posted 2014-03-14 19:16:05 and read 41464 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 312):
The plane had one or more pallets of lithium batteries in the cargo manifest and nobody is discussing how that is the most likely and simplest cause?

Well we would first have to confirm the batteries were aboard and that they were lithium-ion batteries (lithium batteries are significantly more stable).

Once we confirm lithium-ion batteries were onboard, we would need to confirm what type and formulation and what else was packed with them (I believe the Li-Ion battery fires that led to crashes were packed with other flammable materials on the pallet).

We also need to take into account the fire suppression systems aboard the plane.

We then also need to take into account how an uncontrolled fire in the bays could lead to loss of certain transponder and communications functionality aboard the plane before the crew knew there was an issue (for if they received a smoke or fire warning, they should have had time to alert someone).

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:18:19]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-14 19:16:24 and read 41442 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 312):
The plane had one or more pallets of lithium batteries in the cargo manifest and nobody is discussing how that is the most likely and simplest cause?

Thinking laterally along that line, can a large package of lithium batteries be used to conceal some other kind of cargo, in the way that lead can hide other contents from x-rays?

If the lithium can conceal or disguise something more sinister (gas? bacteria? whatever?), then theft or piracy or high-end smuggling becomes a more likely scenario.

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:18:39]

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:29:26]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 19:19:35 and read 41173 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 312):

So then the wreckage should be roughly in the area they have been searching? But still nothing...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-14 19:20:09 and read 41238 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 314):
Well we would first have to confirm the batteries were aboard and that they were lithium-ion batteries (lithium batteries are stable).

Well the confirmation is in the NYT from US officials presumably the cargo manifest.

I'm familiar with lithium batteries shipped by air and they are often the larger ones for hobbyist use e.g. RC. But they could also be laptop batteries in bulk or anything else. All formulations would be risky.

Yes they are stable *if* they are manufactured properly and *if* they are packed properly and *if* not damaged in transit or loading or in flight. That is a lot of ifs and why they are difficult to ship by air now.

I would not want to fly in a passenger jet with commercial quantities of lithium batteries stored in the hold.

Once they start, they can't be stopped with fire suppression systems. They burn hot and contain their own oxygen. They burn until they use up the chemicals.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-14 19:21:55 and read 41149 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 312):
lithium batteries

The plane flew perfectly for over 4 hours on a constant altitude in what seems to be an airway (authorities are not saying which one). If you look at the rest of the information that is unfolding, there is very little evidence that the plane had technical problems. The theory of fire, structural failure, mechanical failure, loss of pressurization due to a failure of any sort are becoming distant possibilities by the day. The possibility of deliberate and skillful hijacking is what the details are pointing to.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-14 19:21:58 and read 41021 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 316):
So then the wreckage should be roughly in the area they have been searching? But still nothing...

Why?
A lithium fire goes out, after a while, and the plane can still be flyable. Just who knows in what state.

Imagine someone with a welding torch randomly destroys the enclosed walls ceiling and floor of a cargo hold. What systems do they cut? all of them? some of them? it is unpredictable.

The plane could be a flying mess but still flying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-14 19:23:44 and read 40777 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 318):
The plane flew perfectly

I'm reading it flew "erratically".
There is not zero evidence of malfunction, there is almost zero *communication*. That is very different.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2014-03-14 19:24:53 and read 40469 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 312):
nobody is discussing how that is the most likely and simplest cause?

I'm not sure that's any more likely or simpler a scenario than a couple of hijackers storming the cockpit or one of the pilots going nuts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 19:24:54 and read 40520 times.

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 313):

..... the 'workings' of an individuals mind is harder to decipher.... there's a thing called 'Asian pride' and 'saving face' in this part of the world....

Yes, "saving face" is one of the most important things in this part of the world. I can't see that ever changing, even for the sake of an investigation...

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 305):

my post is based on my theory that I posted many posts ago! im not going to repeat the whole thing...way too much repetition already!!

True. And I'm sure there will be more if this topic gets to 100 threads!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: socalgeo
Posted 2014-03-14 19:25:51 and read 40444 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 293):
Quoting socalgeo (Reply 288):Thanks! If you have coordinates and url links for any of the Tomnod images I can add them...http://mh370.exodus.vyinnovation.com - you probably know how to pull it from the source code, but if not, I can send it to you in a CSV if you want.

Done, You can use the bookmark tool, or you can zoom into the Tomnod Challenge area. I set the scale dependency so the points only draw when you are zoomed in pretty close. I dont know if this is a complete set of the images, but it is what was there. BTW, I added the URL for the image on the Tomnod system into each point, so if you click on a point you will see a pop up window and you can click on the More Info link in the window.

Link to updated map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934

SoCalGeo

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:27:01]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: mymorningsong
Posted 2014-03-14 19:27:16 and read 40333 times.

What is the duration of recording capacity for the cockpit. NBC Nightly News I just watched mentioned two hours, but that seems wrong.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-14 19:30:08 and read 39874 times.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 321):
I'm not sure that's any more likely or simpler a scenario

It has precedent. There have been a number of lithium fires, and hazardous cargo fires, and with random outcomes from risky to deadly.

But post 9/11 with secured cockpit doors and intelligence on passengers, I think an appalling fire is just more likely especially if the plane actually had a commercial lithium battery shipment in the hold. If it ascended to higher altitudes the only thing that would burn is the batteries. The lack of oxygen especially if the cabin decompressed should limit any spread of the fire vs the extent you typical see on the ground -- where everything burns.

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:30:56]

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:31:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 19:30:40 and read 39872 times.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 266):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 258):

First off, the autopilot does not store routes. That's done by the Flight Management Computer. The autopilot can take inputs from the FMC. But yes, you can store routes there. But what would be the point? You can punch in a new route by hand in a few minutes.

ah okay, yeah the FMC, that's what i meant to say  . Thanks for the clarification  . Why i asked is that the turn was pretty sharp; almost instantaneous, after that handoff...so maybe the route was ready to go instead of someone taking the time to input the routes. I mean whoever did it, has to know what the waypoints are, what airway it is, where it goes, etc, etc....this really seems to me that it was either one of the two up front or somebody on the manifest that has flight experience.

You wouldn't need to use the FMC at first. Just enter a new heading in the Master Control Panel and switch from LNAV to Heading mode. Once on the new heading, enter the new route on the FMC, then switch back to LNAV. It's not really rocket science but you'd need a working knowledge of the autoflight system.

Quoting ksbd (Reply 284):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 277):
Service ceiling is 43,100 feet, according to several sources.

43,100 feet is still not 45,000 feet.

The service ceiling can be limited by different factors. On large airliners, it is typically based on minimum time for emergency descent, not on aerodynamic factors like stall buffet boundary. Plus there is a safety margin for either limitation.

In an case at the service ceiling, the airliner can by regulation still climb at a minimum of 100ft/minute, so by implication it can in practice go higher.

In other words, a 777 at light weights can probably go well higher than 43100 feet before reaching the absolute (aerodynamic) ceiling. How high would depend on weight and aerodynamic factors.

Quoting mymorningsong (Reply 324):

What is the duration of recording capacity for the cockpit. NBC Nightly News I just watched mentioned two hours, but that seems wrong.

Sounds about right for voice recording, though I think the regulatory minimum is lower. Flight data would be longer. At least 25 hours if memory serves.

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:31:57]

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:33:14]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-14 19:33:08 and read 39898 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 320):
I'm reading it flew "erratically".

Only for a short while. See my Post 247, and read the NYT article.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 320):
There is not zero evidence of malfunction, there is almost zero *communication*. That is very different.

The transponder went off 40 minutes into flight while at a constant reporting altitude at 35,000 feet
It went off at the transition between Malysian and Vietnam control (how coincidental.....)
Satellite pings for 4 hours were recorded on a constant airway
Those pings were over remote oceanic area where no primary radar exists (better to be undetected)

There is only 2 reasons why there was a loss of communication: deliberate, or aircraft failure. Which do you think is more likely?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 19:33:36 and read 39844 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 325):

ACARS would presumably transmit a cargo smoke detector alarm long before the fire got serious.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-14 19:34:12 and read 39791 times.

That flyingwithfish guy on twitter mentioned lithium batteries in the cargo manifest days ago. Also that the x ray machine was down.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 19:36:13 and read 39581 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 329):
That flyingwithfish guy on twitter mentioned lithium batteries in the cargo manifest days ago. Also that the x ray machine was down.

Apparently it was the cargo of only MH370 that was not x-rayed... I remember reading that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-14 19:38:10 and read 39294 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 328):
ACARS would presumably transmit a cargo smoke detector alarm long before the fire got serious.

Perhaps someone can verify that. "presumably" sounds like you don't actually know.

If there was smoke in the cargo hold or heat, does it ping this info back to base? or not. Perhaps not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: William60
Posted 2014-03-14 19:38:23 and read 39471 times.

Not sure if this has been covered, but I hear CNN panel experts point to
the skill required....the difficulty of landing the plane in the black of night.

With five hours of continued flight time now basically accepted as fact,
would it still have been pitch black well into a fifth hour?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-14 19:39:41 and read 39388 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 301):

I would love to see the NOTOC, Malaysia is one of the largest producers of batteries for personal electronic devices.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 314):

Cargo suppression systems are unless for battery fires.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 317):

Two aircraft are known to have been brought down by properly packaged and transported batteries, the asiania and UPS 747 freighters.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 320):

Primary radar paints need to be taken with a grain of salt at long range, atmospherics alone can give change of altitude.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-14 19:41:36 and read 39282 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 331):
http://avherald.com/h?article=44062b99

Scroll down to see ACARS messages from this 747 cargo hold fire.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: mymorningsong
Posted 2014-03-14 19:41:58 and read 39190 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 326):

So if 2 hours is accurate, wouldn't that explain why they stayed aloft for so long. To delete prior conversations?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 19:43:22 and read 38913 times.

Quoting mymorningsong (Reply 335):
So if 2 hours is accurate, wouldn't that explain why they stayed aloft for so long. To delete prior conversations?

That thought had crossed my mind, but surely that would be ancillary.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-14 19:44:42 and read 38886 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 301):
It would also validate the oil rig witness.

If you read the oil rig witness letter carefully, he writes that the fire went out while the plane was still in the sky:

"From when I first saw the burning plane until the flames went out (still at high altitude) was 10 to 15 seconds"

He actually never describes that he saw the plane crash, he just assumes it in the initial sentence of the letter.

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:45:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: seat55a
Posted 2014-03-14 19:45:56 and read 38786 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 329):
That flyingwithfish guy on twitter mentioned lithium batteries in the cargo manifest days ago. Also that the x ray machine was down.

Well, is it an accidental fire, or was it something else that needed to not be x-rayed? He should pick a story and stick to it...

We are still at the point of too many facts and no filter for the essential ones.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-14 19:49:39 and read 38436 times.

8th March 2014 sunrise in Port Blair
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...=3&year=2014&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 19:51:28 and read 38078 times.

Quoting mymorningsong (Reply 335):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 326):

So if 2 hours is accurate, wouldn't that explain why they stayed aloft for so long. To delete prior conversations?

You mean in a "life insurance" scenario? I suppose. But it is yet another unlikely scenario IMHO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: undertheradar
Posted 2014-03-14 19:52:14 and read 37958 times.

Quoting William60 (Reply 332):

still dark after 5hrs....even if around 1hr flying east and 4hrs flying west....flying west actually 'gives' you more darkness..as this flight departed KUL 00:43 (just after midnight)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-14 19:55:36 and read 37749 times.

Quoting William60 (Reply 332):
Not sure if this has been covered, but I hear CNN panel experts point to
the skill required....the difficulty of landing the plane in the black of night.

We are talking about hijacking a very sophisticated airplane that has a very accurate inertial navigation system, and an autopilot that has various lateral and vertical modes. Couple all that with an FMS, and he can make a pretty OK landing on any flat area that is about 4000 feet long. That landing can be done without using satellite or ground based navigation aids to rely on. The airplane is pretty autonomous.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 19:56:19 and read 37693 times.

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 341):
still dark after 5hrs....even if around 1hr flying east and 4hrs flying west....flying west actually 'gives' you more darkness..

Correct.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 334):
Scroll down to see ACARS messages from this 747 cargo hold fire.

Well it did not take them long to find something: "First debris was found floating at position N33.2522 E125.0186 about 2 hours after communication with the aircraft was lost."

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 337):
If you read the oil rig witness letter carefully, he writes that the fire went out while the plane was still in the sky:

"From when I first saw the burning plane until the flames went out (still at high altitude) was 10 to 15 seconds"

He actually never describes that he saw the plane crash, he just assumes it in the initial sentence of the letter.

Maybe it flew a lot farther East?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-14 19:57:05 and read 37552 times.

I am trying to make sense of the often conflicting information. Please allow me to advance something that tries to tie together the current state of information (or disinformation).

My current theory is that this was a high end smuggling operation

Evidence supporting this idea is that this plane's cargo was not x-rayed before departure; the only plane not to have its cargo x-rayed.

There is said to have been a large shipment of lithium batteries on board. Could the batteries be used to disguise or conceal something more sinister, like gas or bacteria?

Were they really standard batteries, or just shells of batteries containing something else? We don’t know, because they weren’t x-rayed.

If this idea is correct, then we have a motive that seems consistent with an inside job of pilot being involved and cooperating for a ton of money (and maybe involving the ground staff too)

It would also explain why the Americans are so keen to find the plane and its cargo before the smugglers (who might be terrorists or associated with terrorists) get hold of it

If this is true, it suggests a sophisticated level of planning – get a pilot involved, choose a flight that operates in darkness, avoid x-rays, and so on. It also suggests that whatever was loaded in the cargo bay that night was never intended to reach Beijing.

It seems wild but it also seems plausible, given what we know at the moment.

Whether the flight actually landed where it was supposed to land, or whether something went “wrong” and it crashed somewhere, is still the big question.

If the theory is correct, I guess security officials world-wide would prefer that it has crashed.

I should also add that if this was a smuggling job, it is possible (but of course not certain) that someone involved would have been a passenger on the flight, just to keep an eye on things.

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:58:16]

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:02:56]

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:31:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 764
Posted 2014-03-14 19:57:45 and read 37584 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 342):
That landing can be done without using satellite or ground based navigation aids to rely on. The airplane is pretty autonomous

That's news to me..... and I work in the field of autonomous aircraft and computer vision. Afaik, you do need an approach guidance system to automatically land the 777.

[Edited 2014-03-14 19:58:20]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: William60
Posted 2014-03-14 19:58:55 and read 37330 times.

Undertheradar,

Yes, the plane was heading away from sunrise, but I was counting
five hours after the "good night" from plane to tower...

Now I have to re-calc when the five hours actually begin...I might
be constructing the timeline incorrectly...

Razza...thanks for that chart!

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:02:01]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 20:00:29 and read 37147 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 342):

Quoting William60 (Reply 332):
Not sure if this has been covered, but I hear CNN panel experts point to
the skill required....the difficulty of landing the plane in the black of night.

We are talking about hijacking a very sophisticated airplane that has a very accurate inertial navigation system, and an autopilot that has various lateral and vertical modes. Couple all that with an FMS, and he can make a pretty OK landing on any flat area that is about 4000 feet long. That landing can be done without using satellite or ground based navigation aids to rely on. The airplane is pretty autonomous.

As 764 says, you can't autoland the plane without ground based equipment, specifically an ILS (Instrument Landing System) installation.

I suppose in theory you could punch in the runway heading and fiddle with the descent rate but without the flare and rollout guidance I wouldn't like to be on board. You d probably end up destroying the nose gear for starters. Probably more survivable if you hand fly with autothrust on, even for a person with no experience.

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:00:58]

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:02:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-14 20:02:10 and read 36869 times.

Quoting 764 (Reply 345):
That's news to me..... and I work in the field of autonomous aircraft and computer vision. Afaik, you do need an approach guidance system to automatically land the 777.

I never said autoland. The autopilot can bring the plane close enough to whatever lat / long and heading he needed to bring to (via FMS through IRS sensing), he can then take over at the last phase of the landing and plant it down.

The point is that if he was told to land the plane to some remote location. The automation will bring him pretty close to the final point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-14 20:02:45 and read 37008 times.

If they departed at 00:41 and flew for 5 hours and ended up on the same parallel as the Andaman Islands that would be 05:41 and
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...=3&year=2014&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1
showing sunrise for Port Blair on the 8th of March was 05:32 beginning of daylight starting maybe 1/2 hour before sunrise, darkness may not have been an issue

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:05:22]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 20:04:26 and read 36700 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 348):
Quoting 764 (Reply 345):
That's news to me..... and I work in the field of autonomous aircraft and computer vision. Afaik, you do need an approach guidance system to automatically land the 777.

I never said autoland. The autopilot can bring the plane close enough to whatever lat / long and heading he needed to bring to (via FMS through IRS sensing), he can then take over at the last phase of the landing and plant it down.

The point is that if he was told to land the plane to some remote location. The automation will bring him pretty close to the final point.

Fair point. But you still require a person with a relatively high level of piloting experience. Light prop experience helps of course but airliner power, speeds, and weights are a whole other kettle of fish.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-14 20:06:29 and read 36485 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 350):
Fair point. But you still require a person with a relatively high level of piloting experience. Light prop experience helps of course but airliner power, speeds, and weights are a whole other kettle of fish.

Sure, But in my view this was a B777 qualified pilot.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-14 20:06:56 and read 36973 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 317):
I'm familiar with lithium batteries shipped by air and they are often the larger ones for hobbyist use e.g. RC. But they could also be laptop batteries in bulk or anything else. All formulations would be risky.

Yes they are stable *if* they are manufactured properly and *if* they are packed properly and *if* not damaged in transit or loading or in flight. That is a lot of ifs and why they are difficult to ship by air now.

I would not want to fly in a passenger jet with commercial quantities of lithium batteries stored in the hold.

Once they start, they can't be stopped with fire suppression systems. They burn hot and contain their own oxygen. They burn until they use up the chemicals.

Nice post.

Assuming hostile intent, do you need specific knowledge of the 777 to silence its communications the way it appears to be done?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-14 20:08:45 and read 36864 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 306):
I think it's more likely that the Chinese government blew the plane out of the skies to avoid another potential 9/11 rather than this elaborate scheme.

Quite the conspiracy theory, but if the Chinese had solid info that it did in fact need to be blown up, and they did so, and had a very somber and serious meeting with top US officials....

...then it might very well be a great cover up for both sides to tussle, each side having a preferred theory or put out (mis)information, while the real cleanup happens in a place that nobody is talking about.

I'm not much of a believer in conspiracy theories, though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 20:11:27 and read 36541 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 352):
Assuming hostile intent, do you need specific knowledge of the 777 to silence its communications the way it appears to be done?

Only for one of the three items. The other two would be trivial for any pilot, even without airliner experience.

You can probably find the EE breaker panel diagrams online. In any case not very difficult information to dig up.

- Transponder. Turn the rotary selector to "STBY".
- Radios. Don't transmit.
- Satcom. Pull the breaker in the EE bay.

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:14:05]

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:14:56]

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:15:17]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 20:17:18 and read 35825 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 354):
- Satcom. Pull the breaker in the EE bay.

Can you confirm where the EE bay hatch is? I read before it was located in the forward galley, which would make it more difficult unless the hijackers had the front of the plane secure. If the hatch is in the cockpit then it's a different story. Also, wouldn't it be hard to locate the correct breaker in the EE bay, even with all the info available online?

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:21:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 764
Posted 2014-03-14 20:17:36 and read 35897 times.

Hmm, lithium batteries, something happened right after a turn, electronic malfunctions (transponders etc.), drowsy or incapacitated pilots, fire in the sky near the oil rig, pinging until much later.... This actually would make perfect sense (if you discount the entire turning back west theory):

Here's my theory:

- Some of the cargo shifted during the right turn at IGARI. This does happen when cargo is insufficiently balanced or secured. It has by itself led to crashes.

- Some (maybe as little as one) battery was damages and caught fire. This releases gaseous Hydroflouric Acid which is not only very corrosive, but also noxious and can act as a neurotoxin. This may have disabled the pilots. The fire may have grown quite slowly as it was eating at the other batteries' shells.

- The fire may by itself - or via corrosion - have disabled electronics including transponder antannae.

- Meanwhile the aircraft continued on the programmed course.

- Burning aircraft was observed from an oil rig. It is possible that by this time jet fuel might have been burning as well. This does not need to be an explosive burn.

- Fire was either extinguished or ran out of fuel.

- The aircraft - or its remains - may have fallen right there or continued on course until fuel ran out or until the systems failed completely.

- Debris might be found anywhere in the South China Sea, possibly not too far away from Hong Kong....

Just a thought, but it seems plausible to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ivanoruvan
Posted 2014-03-14 20:17:47 and read 35837 times.

It's very difficult to approach this mystery on many theories. Why not take one at a time and stop where we have no further ideas. I'm sure many of you agree that it could be an accident.

Let's consider the odds of an accident and see how far we can go. Let me put my hypothetical helmet on and ask a few questions. Pardon me if my questions are naive. It's because I'm simply ignorant on these technical topics.

So the transpoder failed first. After pilot's last communication with the statement 'Good Night'. Let's consider the comm systems failed at this point. Will the Pilot immediately know it failed? Will he know the transponder failed? If the answer is 'No' or 'he may not have noticed', he would have continued with this journey. Since the plane turned, we assume something is wrong and he wanted to return. Now, I have no idea how it's decided to take a left turn or right turn normally. But he turned west. Assuming he wanted to return to the source, can he immediately descend and try to land or he should travel some distance before he can descend?

Either way, we know the flight descent was 'by 3000 ft'. So he switched from cruising altitude to descent. Now, if the flight has only communication problems, he would have circled the area or he would have tried to make a forced landing/ditching as he could not communicate his intentions. The fact that he didn't circle or crash in the immediate vicinty, suggests that he left the area.

Does this mean, the auto-pilot failed to dis-engage after he turned? What are the odds of that? Or could it be a scenario where he couldn't control flight speed / altitude at this point? In the former situation, can he over-ride auto-pilot mechanically and control at least the direction? If so, he would have circled again, hoping he gets some assistance from ground sooner or later. He wouldn't have gone towards the ocean, right? If he had absolutely no control over the speed, direction & altitude, then the plane would have simply gone the distance, stalled & crashed.

I think it's relatively easy to calculate the max distance (for various altitudes) and check for debris, right? If crash is the hypothesis, that's what I would do if I were part of SAR. Start from the calculated boundary first and between south & south-west.

My question to you is, are there ways to overcome the above hypothesis? What exactly are the guidelines the pilot should follow in such cases?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 764
Posted 2014-03-14 20:20:02 and read 35666 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 348):
I never said autoland. The autopilot can bring the plane close enough to whatever lat / long and heading he needed to bring to (via FMS through IRS sensing), he can then take over at the last phase of the landing and plant it down.

The point is that if he was told to land the plane to some remote location. The automation will bring him pretty close to the final point.

OK, now it makes sense to me. Sorry for the confusion.

If he did land manually at a remote location, he would have needed daylight though.....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PHX Flyer
Posted 2014-03-14 20:21:05 and read 35523 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 301):
attempts to save plane including via oxygen starvation.

Oxygen starvation yes, but not to put out a fire. Rather to kill the passengers and uninvolved crew. Always assuming that what we have learned about data transmissions form the aircraft and other facts is true, the only way to reconcile everything into one plausible story is to assume that this was a deliberate act with the intent to take the aircraft - for what reason remains to be seen, but I am convinced we will find out in due time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 20:23:51 and read 35219 times.

Quoting ivanoruvan (Reply 357):
So the transpoder failed first. After pilot's last communication with the statement 'Good Night'. Let's consider the comm systems failed at this point. Will the Pilot immediately know it failed? Will he know the transponder failed? If the answer is 'No' or 'he may not have noticed', he would have continued with this journey.

I'm thinking he'd get an error message on the screens if the transponder failed.

Quoting ivanoruvan (Reply 357):
Either way, we know the flight descent was 'by 3000 ft'. So he switched from cruising altitude to descent. Now, if the flight has only communication problems, he would have circled the area or he would have tried to make a forced landing/ditching as he could not communicate his intentions. The fact that he didn't circle or crash in the immediate vicinty, suggests that he left the area.

Actually I'm not sure we know they descended 3000ft.

Anyway if there was a comms problem the crew wouldn't never have opted to circle. Plenty of fuel to fly to an airport so either return to KUL or divert to SGN just to name two options. Why circle over the ocean when you can go to a nice big runway?

Quoting ivanoruvan (Reply 357):
Does this mean, the auto-pilot failed to dis-engage after he turned? What are the odds of that? Or could it be a scenario where he couldn't control flight speed / altitude at this point? In the former situation, can he over-ride auto-pilot mechanically and control at least the direction? I

If the auto-pilot fails to disengage (an astronomically unlikely occurrence), you can pull the circuit breaker. That cuts power to the autopilot. Problem solved.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2014-03-14 20:24:44 and read 35028 times.

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 349):

Maybe I missed it, but did you take into account that Port Blair is 2.5 hours behind KUL? If the aircraft disappeared at 00:40 GMT+8 and flew for 5 hours, that would be 05:40 in KUL but only 03:10 local.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: William60
Posted 2014-03-14 20:28:53 and read 34681 times.

764,

That was why I raised sunrise as an issue...just seemed like the CNN
panel was quick to assume darkness prevailed.

I'm still not certain it did.

And under a scenario of hostile takeover without suicide, sick-joyriding
or localized terror as the end game...then I wonder what those
five extra hours were really all about.

Seems like a lot of planning and effort to not have a purpose and
one in which the perps survive.

I'm not in the camp of fire or mechanical issues any longer.

[Edited 2014-03-14 20:30:50]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-14 20:48:11 and read 32642 times.

Quoting William60 (Reply 362):
That was why I raised sunrise as an issue...just seemed like the CNN
panel was quick to assume darkness prevailed.

I'm still not certain it did.

And under a scenario of hostile takeover without suicide, sick-joyriding
or localized terror as the end game...then I wonder what those
five extra hours were really all about.

Seems like a lot of planning and effort to not have a purpose and
one in which the perps survive.

I'm not in the camp of fire or mechanical issues any longer.

If it was suicide with the intention of never being found, I think it would make sense to fly as far West as possible to one of the most remote parts of the Indian Ocean before crashing the plane into the water in the dark. If it was taken, then sunrise becomes more important to consider depending on a) the skill of whoever is flying and has to land the plane, b) where the plane is going to land, and c) remaining undetected.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-14 20:52:57 and read 32271 times.

I'm starting to feel like it's suicide as well. This guy was a real aviation buff. Who knows what kind of demons he had as well, but regardless, based on what I've read, he's the kind of guy who would have liked to go down in the history books of aviation. One would hope he might strive to acheive this in a different fashion, but it's hard to deny with what we know that he definitely would appreciate a chapter. Maybe this is how he chose to get it?

Nothing but speculation. 1 fact. 7 days. Wow.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ivanoruvan
Posted 2014-03-14 21:00:34 and read 31333 times.

Thank you Starlionblue. So, we can say, theoretically, any problem with the aircraft (unless hypoxia/absence of pilots or complete loss of control), the plane would not have left the area. Am I correct?

If we take the first one, I don't think hypoxia happens in a second. It'll take a while and crew might have had some time to respond (whether they know they are going into hypoxia or not). If they know about loss of oxygen, they would have reduced the altitude and continue to address the problem they were facing before. Even if they didn't, they anyway turned (assuming they tried to return/land). The descent would have solved the hypoxia problem, right? Unless there was no descent at all and it was not their intention to do so.

That leaves us, only one situation. Complete loss of control. If not, we can assume, this is where all other theories start.

1. Absence of pilots - physically in the cockpit or intentionally with the controls (they were just sitting back with suicidal intentions).

2. Hijacking - Whether by pilots or a passenger. Assuming passengers, the pilot bravely tried to take the plane away as far as he could go, so he can avert another 9/11.

In both cases, I'm sure the pilot cannot be suspected. Psychologically, a person with suicidal intentions will definitely leave a message. At least to his loved ones if not to the world. We have no leads on this.

If Pilot is suspected with the hijacking, a first time hijacker cannot be this perfect. And there's no way in the world he can handle this alone without support from a group/nation.

It's far easy to do a background check on the pilot. His psychological or social activities in the recent past will tell something. Remember, we are not talking about an expert terrorist but a first timer according to the facts we have. So there would be indications about a major change.

And this is where I'll definitely conclude "It's just an accident". Nothing more, nothing less.

@ Experts: Don't BS me. It's just one of the many angles we could think.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: William60
Posted 2014-03-14 21:00:59 and read 31344 times.

Bajamatic,

They're discussing motives as a key right now.

Rational people naturally want to know about motives.

The sad thing is, so much ugly occurs every day without
a motive that makes sense.

IOW, if this really is a hostile takeover, and kidnapping, and
possibly murder, the motive is going to move the needle on the
sick and twisted meter, no matter what it is.

Extreme selfishness and chilling disregard for others is almost
always apparent, though.

There's no good reason for this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: YNGguins
Posted 2014-03-14 21:01:37 and read 31654 times.

What I thought all along... This just came out on Twitter at 11:55pm/ET:
"@FoxNews: BREAKING: Malaysian official says investigators conclude missing jet was hijacked, steered off-course, AP reports"

After not finding this thing within the first 18 hours, I immediately thought it landed somewhere, anywhere, in a remote location, where it remains today.

Praying for those on board that airplane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-14 21:04:46 and read 31193 times.

Somebody in NYtimes comments mentioned that the way the plane supposedly behaved, sudden altitude changes, would be like a passenger without any pilot background trying desperately to fly the plane.

So my questions are: How hard it would be to fly this plane and how hard it would be to try to use the radio to contact somebody? Could a passenger keep it flying 4-5 hours at night?

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:06:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 21:06:25 and read 30817 times.

Quoting ivanoruvan (Reply 365):

Thank you Starlionblue. So, we can say, theoretically, any problem with the aircraft (unless hypoxia/absence of pilots or complete loss of control), the plane would not have left the area. Am I correct?

That depends what you mean by area. If there was a problem, the pilots would have attempted to fly towards an airport, or at least some land mass. Just staying on course would have been a good start, They certainly wouldn't have loitered over the sea. However there would be no reason to fly further than KUL, SIN or SGN.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: William60
Posted 2014-03-14 21:08:49 and read 30635 times.

Tim,

I think the erratic behaviour speaks to a struggle of some kind, a bout of nerves
after takeover, or both.

I have heard experts say that flying the plane, keeping it level, etc, is not that difficult.

It's takeoffs and landings that are incredibly demanding, skill-wise.

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:12:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 21:12:36 and read 30144 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 368):
Somebody in NYtimes comments mentioned that the way the plane supposedly behaved, sudden altitude changes, would be like a passenger without any pilot background trying desperately to fly the plane.

So my questions are: How hard it would be to fly this plane and how hard it would be to try to use the radio to contact somebody? Could a passenger keep it flying 4-5 hours at night?

With no help from outside, it would be extremely hard, probably impossibly hard, for someone with no piloting background to fly manually.

However if we assume that everything on the plane is working, the autoflight system is engaged and this hypothetical person can contact someone on the ground, landing it somewhere would be relatively simple as long as our guy can follow instructions.

Contacting someone on the radio is somewhat intuitive. Don the headset and pushing the radio button on either yoke to speak. I think there's also a transmit button on the radio itself. No need to change frequencies since you are "on freak".

If we assume that the autoflight system was off, and a pax or F/A took manual control, it would most likely have rapidly ended in disaster.

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:18:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-14 21:12:49 and read 30360 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 368):

Somebody in NYtimes comments mentioned that the way the plane supposedly behaved, sudden altitude changes, would be like a passenger without any pilot background trying desperately to fly the plane.

Since it's now in the open, I must admit... I received this information on saturday morning from my source in KL. It has everyone stumped. If the airplane flew erratically, the defence guys watching it on radar would probably just went... "What the heck?"
But, again, is that really MH370?
I'll add that I was also told FL230 and FL450 specifically. And also that speed was erratic, radar track ground speed at times estimated at 600 knots. What I was not told was where it went...
If this is MH370... I don't think someone was flying the aircraft...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: 764
Posted 2014-03-14 21:13:57 and read 30114 times.

Sorry, but my mind is still stuck on a technical problem / fire. Look at the antenna locations. If something were to happen in the front cargo bay (like a cargo (battery) fire), it could easily damage/destroy quite a few of them. Satcom would be unaffected. The front bay would also be quite close to the flight deck, increasing the chance that fumes might make their way up there.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-14 21:14:54 and read 30037 times.

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 367):

The Associated Press is the only one reporting this, quoting a single unnamed official.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 21:18:00 and read 29612 times.

Quoting William60 (Reply 370):
I have heard experts say that flying the plane, keeping it level, etc, is not that difficult.


I would say those experts are incorrect in their assessment.

It would not be difficult for a pilot. For a person with no experience and with no instructor? Forget it.

It takes a surprising amount of flying hours before straight and level flight becomes second nature. And that's in a light aircraft. It sounds easy but the aircraft is continually moving about. Granted, the 777 has auto-trim which would make things easier, but on the other hand it is heavy so it has lots of inertia you have to take into account. You have to be careful not to overcompensate.

There's also the fact that this is at night so there are no visual cues. A pilot has to rely on instruments. This, also, takes many hours of experience before it becomes second nature.

On the other hand, if a person has light plane experience, it goes almost impossible to "hard work but very doable".

Quoting William60 (Reply 370):
It's takeoffs and landings that are incredibly demanding, skill-wise.

Mostly landings, but yes those are the harder bits. So if a person with no experience can't even stay straight and level, forget the landing. It takes many landings before your final approaches start having a good feel to them.

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:19:56]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-14 21:19:46 and read 29398 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 372):
Since it's now in the open, I must admit... I received this information on saturday morning from my source in KL. It has everyone stumped. If the airplane flew erratically, the defence guys watching it on radar would probably just went... "What the heck?"
But, again, is that really MH370?
I'll add that I was also told FL230 and FL450 specifically. And also that speed was erratic, radar track ground speed at times estimated at 600 knots. What I was not told was where it went...
If this is MH370... I don't think someone was flying the aircraft...

I appreciate the fact that you held information in confidence, wild as it may be. Is there a different possibility than piracy, suicide, murder etc. ? Could the cockpit section have suffered a catastrophic structural failure and the pilots incapacitated?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: William60
Posted 2014-03-14 21:23:12 and read 29002 times.

Starlionblue,

I should have mentioned that some training or experience would be necessary,
and I believe the panel made mention of this.

My bad.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-14 21:23:25 and read 29106 times.

My theory is that something hit the cockpit window (meteroid one in millions chance but still possible) and caused it to shatter. The pilots tried to descent, turn and change the transponder code to emergency but accidentally knocked it to standby. Just before they passed out, they managed to set the plane to autopilot.

The autopilot then tried for 4-5 hours to maintain altitude, direction and speed but the cockpit being damaged and air rushing in, it could only partially compensate before fuel running out somewhere above Indian ocean. The crew and passengers were long dead before hitting the water.

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:25:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-14 21:26:37 and read 28572 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 378):
Quoting tim73 (Reply 378):
The autopilot then tried for 4-5 hours to maintain altitude, direction and speed but the cockpit being damaged and air rushing in, it could only partially compensate before fuel running out somewhere above Indian ocean. The crew and passengers were long dead before hitting the water.

this is my theory too. it even got close enough to the oil rigger that he saw whatever flashed but then headed over the horizon.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-14 21:27:43 and read 28602 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 372):
Since it's now in the open, I must admit... I received this information on saturday morning from my source in KL. It has everyone stumped. If the airplane flew erratically, the defence guys watching it on radar would probably just went... "What the heck?"
But, again, is that really MH370?
I'll add that I was also told FL230 and FL450 specifically. And also that speed was erratic, radar track ground speed at times estimated at 600 knots. What I was not told was where it went...
If this is MH370... I don't think someone was flying the aircraft...

You're the smartest guy here ... i think i know what it looks like ... what do you think it looks like ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-14 21:29:26 and read 28260 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 353):
Quite the conspiracy theory, but if the Chinese had solid info that it did in fact need to be blown up, and they did so, and had a very somber and serious meeting with top US officials....

I should clarify... I don't believe either theory, but one is slightly less fantastic than the other.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 21:30:05 and read 28374 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 378):

My theory is that something hit the cockpit window (meteroid one in millions chance but still possible) and caused it to shatter. The pilots tried to descent, turn and change the transponder code to emergency but accidentally knocked it to standby. Just before they passed out, they managed to set the plane to autopilot.

The autopilot then tried for 4-5 hours to maintain altitude, direction and speed but the cockpit being damaged and air rushing in, it could only partially compensate before fuel running out somewhere above Indian ocean. The crew and passengers were long dead before hitting the water.


This theory has a nice ring to it, but there's unfortunately one big hole. To set the emergency code you'd enter 7700 using the keyboard. To turn it off you'd use the rotary selector. It is implausible that they would confuse the two, or even knock the transponder to standby.

Quoting William60 (Reply 377):
Starlionblue,

I should have mentioned that some training or experience would be necessary,
and I believe the panel made mention of this.

My bad.

No worries! 

I'd note that just having flown lots of MS Flight Sim is not enough. From personal experience I can tell you it helps once you get into a real airplane, but it does not prepare you at all for the feel of hand flying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: chrisrad
Posted 2014-03-14 21:30:43 and read 28287 times.

Malaysia confirms Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 was hijacked

A MALAYSIAN government official says investigators have concluded that one of the pilots or someone else with flying experience hijacked the missing Malaysia Airlines jet.
The claim comes after seven days of fruitless searches for Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, and after revelations suggesting the plane made several course corrections after the cockpit’s last known contact with air traffic control.
The official, who is involved in the investigation, told the Associated Press no motive has been established, and it is not yet clear where the plane was taken. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to brief the media.
The official said that hijacking was no longer a theory. “It is conclusive,’’ he added.
The Malaysian prime minister is expected to brief the media later today.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...acked/story-fnizu68q-1226855485378

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-14 21:30:51 and read 28299 times.

KUALA LUMPUR - The last satellite transmission from a Malaysian airliner missing for a week has been traced to the Indian Ocean off Australia

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...d-be-traced-sea-australia-20140315

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-14 21:31:05 and read 28006 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 361):
Maybe I missed it, but did you take into account that Port Blair is 2.5 hours behind KUL? If the aircraft disappeared at 00:40 GMT 8 and flew for 5 hours, that would be 05:40 in KUL but only 03:10 local.

Yes I forgot about a wee small thing called timezones

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: dreamflight767
Posted 2014-03-14 21:32:28 and read 27774 times.

What about the "Tech Crew"? I believe there were 2 on board. What is their role, where do they sit during these trips, do they have access to the cockpit/jump-seat, how much knowledge of the aircraft/systems do they know or have?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-14 21:32:41 and read 27799 times.

I haven't tried to read all 380 posts in this thread but it sounds like more people are moving to a "hijacking" theory versus anything else at the moment.

It's just odd that no one has claimed responsibility, unless it failed of course.

Malaysian Official: Missing Plane Was Hijacked

Quote:
One week after a Malaysia Airlines jet with 12 crew members and 227 passengers from 15 countries went missing, officials are now saying that they the aircraft was indeed hijacked....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 21:32:57 and read 27807 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 378):
My theory is that something hit the cockpit window (meteroid one in millions chance but still possible) and caused it to shatter. The pilots tried to descent, turn and change the transponder code to emergency but accidentally knocked it to standby. Just before they passed out, they managed to set it to autopilot.

That's an interesting one. I have always thought about what would happen if something caused a huge crack in the windshield which left both pilots incapacitated either by death or by blindness. Hadn't heard that theory yet with this. It would explain something. It might also explain a Flight Attendant trying to fly the plane. if they were on bottled oxygen.


Another quick question for Starlionblue or Mandela. Manually landing a plane at night is difficult. Now I will admit that in my PPL experience, finding the airport at night is difficult and it boggles my mind that the FAA considers it "VFR" flight. But I don't really see it that much more difficult of a landing, once the airport is spotted, and I am not that good of a pilot. So is there something about flying the larger planes at night that makes it harder to hand fly a landing that I don't know about?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ivanoruvan
Posted 2014-03-14 21:33:19 and read 27797 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 378):
My theory is that something hit the cockpit window (meteroid one in millions chance but still possible) and caused it to shatter.

But at that speed and altitude, it would have ripped the cockpit apart giving the pilots no chance to react, right? Even if they had time, why turn? Why not just descend and address the situation? Physically I think it's easier to descend than turn.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-14 21:33:49 and read 27989 times.

http://www.chron.com/news/crime/arti...ght-hijacked-5316629.php?cmpid=bna

Malaysian: Investigators conclude flight hijacked

So now there goes the meteorite or mech theories......

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: bermudatriangle
Posted 2014-03-14 21:34:52 and read 27755 times.

Most of the leaks so far from the US press have turned out to be correct, in spite of great skepticism by many here on the forums and elsewhere (including, apparently, the Malaysian and Chinese govs). So I think we would be correct to treat them as credible by and large going forward.

To me (very interested observer but no piloting experience), it would seem the rollercoaster ride from 45k to 23k to a 29.5k cruise is consistent with the pilot hijacking the aircraft, depressurizing and ensuring that passengers are deprived of oxygen and also unable to secure footing to move about the cabin and react. Then he returns to fuel efficient cruising altitude but below the paths of other aircraft.

Then we have the waypoints that he apparently flew, perhaps leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for investigators if he is a devious serial killer about to take his own life?

Finally there is the engine data indicating a 40k foot plunge in one minute, which to me seems consistent with the pilot putting the plane nose down and firing the engines (would be roughly 450mph down to the sea from 40k feet in one minute). The question is was that the last datapt from the engines (obviously if not, it can't be right).

Taking all we know into account, I think this was either a sophisticated terrorist plot or a really twisted serial killer, masterminded either way by the captain or FO. It's really hard to see how a fire or other accidental even could trigger a 5 hour sequence of events with so many coincidental elements. We are bending facts around a narrative if trying to paint this as an accident.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-14 21:35:27 and read 27673 times.

I find it interesting that they have no new evidence - they have merely decided that the evidence they have conclusively proves that the flight was hijacked.

That seems premature to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CO953
Posted 2014-03-14 21:36:50 and read 27394 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 13):
CO953

A belated thank you for responding to my query: (whether the anonymous pilot's story about being asked to reach MH370 -- and hearing "mumbling" and "static" in return -- had truly been debunked, and the alleged debunking sourced and linked.

I've been working and just now saw your reply at COMMENT #13 of this thread. I would like to copy and paste it but can't make it happen..... so regarding the info in your COMMENT #13:

Several posters have also been saying that the story was false. The info you gave was nicely thorough, and thank you for providing it..

But to continue our prior discussion: Unless I missed it, I still did not see in your article an exact source for the supposed denial/debunking. The article makes the statement in summary fashion, but does not quote any name or office behind the debunking of the "mumbling/static" transmission claim by the anonymous, purported pilot.

I don't aspire to come across as a nitpicker; I am just really trying to cross off hypoxic mumbling from my list. I am wondering whether the editor who originally allowed the story fact-checked the reporter before publisjing the story, as all editors are, theoretically, supposed to do on a regular, spot-check basis in a tradiaitional newsroom/bureau? I need to try to find what day the claim surfaced, and in what media outlet.

I sure would like to see a link in e-print to some printed or video official rejection of the "mumbling/static" story told by the anonymous pilot. It was at a news conference?

Due to the accepted historical links between hypoxia, oxygen masks, confusion, and mechanically or neurologically muffled cockpit voice broadcasts, the widely reported "mumbling" last contact could prove a crucial clue, if substantiated... to try to rule in or rule out a Helios-type decompression scenario.

I certainly hope that investigators have thoroughly interviewed the reporter regarding the credibility of his source, and I hope that the reporter does some serious thinking about the balance between shielding his/her source and verifying a potentially important clue.

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:37:24]

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:38:33]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-14 21:37:40 and read 27380 times.

Quoting 764 (Reply 373):
Sorry, but my mind is still stuck on a technical problem / fire. Look at the antenna locations. If something were to happen in the front cargo bay (like a cargo (battery) fire), it could easily damage/destroy quite a few of them. Satcom would be unaffected. The front bay would also be quite close to the flight deck, increasing the chance that fumes might make their way up there.

Yes, this fire incident near the comm systems is the best non-agent theory.
and I dont think someone untrained could have the flown the plane in dark for 2 hours
Controll would have been lost fairly quickly. maybe the fire caused the AUTO pilot to
misbehave at times.

While much of the aircraft is fire resitant, it is not made of inflamable materials.
with enough heat, just about anything can light up, although the burning would be slower in 7777
than unrated flamable materials typically say in a home.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-14 21:38:18 and read 27142 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 392):
I find it interesting that they have no new evidence - they have merely decided that the evidence they have conclusively proves that the flight was hijacked.

That seems premature to me.

I'm sure they know more than us... not in a conspiracy theory sense, but just in general. People in the know seem to know more. They must be pretty sure to say it with such certainty...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 21:38:21 and read 27136 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 390):
Malaysian: Investigators conclude flight hijacked

While this (in part) supports my earlier theories, I question the conclusiveness of this statement. Why? Just because they were tired of answering questions. I admit everything leans towards that. But I hardly say it is conclusive at this point based on what has been shared. I mean other than the CVR, how do the know conclusively it was that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ivanoruvan
Posted 2014-03-14 21:39:06 and read 27194 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 390):

http://www.chron.com/news/crime/arti...ght-hijacked-5316629.php?cmpid=bna

Malaysian: Investigators conclude flight hijacked

So, they did do some background checks and hit the nail somewhere. Or at least they think they do. Interesting to know what lead they got. Any of the crew's or passenger's?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-14 21:39:11 and read 27192 times.

Quoting dreamflight767 (Reply 386):

What about the "Tech Crew"? I believe there were 2 on board. What is their role, where do they sit during these trips, do they have access to the cockpit/jump-seat, how much knowledge of the aircraft/systems do they know or have?

Not sure but I think they meant the flight crew when they said "tech crew".

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 388):
Another quick question for Starlionblue or Mandela. Manually landing a plane at night is difficult. Now I will admit that in my PPL experience, finding the airport at night is difficult and it boggles my mind that the FAA considers it "VFR" flight. But I don't really see it that much more difficult of a landing, once the airport is spotted, and I am not that good of a pilot. So is there something about flying the larger planes at night that makes it harder to hand fly a landing that I don't know about?

I hear you on finding the bloody airport! 

It is more difficult for a few reasons:
- Much harder to judge speed and height based on visual cues or engine sound.
- Higher speeds and weights mean you need to be further "ahead of the airplane".
- Bigger spaces needed.

Then again for an experienced pilot should not be a huge issue if they can see the runway. Airliner crews land at night all the time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-14 21:39:33 and read 27180 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 392):
I find it interesting that they have no new evidence - they have merely decided that the evidence they have conclusively proves that the flight was hijacked.

That seems premature to me.

I'm afraid it is their way of gradually moving us to the suicide/homicide theory ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-14 21:41:04 and read 26934 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 392):
That seems premature to me.

It's highly likely they have more evidence than what's been released publicly. And I don't mean they're hiding it, I just mean it takes everyone a while to look over things and put them together before they release them to the public. By tomorrow, we'll probably know why they came to this conclusion.

Remember also that they've been behind the curve for a while now. The US and others have been feeding them lots of data, which they've officially, at least, pretty consistently either downplayed or outright denied. So it sounds like a big neck snap when they finally come around, but really they're just saying what a lot of others have obviously been thinking, based on all the available evidence so far.

But I have a feeling there will be more released tomorrow (today); something that demonstrates why they feel this is "conclusive".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-14 21:41:59 and read 26865 times.

A class D fire as other's have mentioned (lithium being an obvious metal) would not be suppressed by halon alone nor de-pressurization even at high altitudes. Depending on how the batteries where packed if they were tightly bound and close backed in a big package or case the smoke could be trapped while the intensity inside the bag reached extreme temperatures until it burned through the bag as a molten mass hot enough to make everything around it auto-ignite. Smoke detection would be delayed and not of much use and all fire suppression as stated before would not be effective in controlling a class D fire until it burnt itself out.

Unlike the cargo plane accidents there might have been less lithium metal as to not burn long enough to take the entire plane down immediately but enough to knock out a lot of systems and people/crew. (Where is the cockpit oxygen system stored for the cockpit as that has a very limited operating temperature in the event of a fire and the lithum fire's previously generated almost immediately incapacitating fumes with high levels of carbon monoxide and other fun/acutely toxic combustion byproducts)

That being said any confirmation of deliberate and controlled flight (the satcom data) does offer other possibilities.

Quoting bermudatriangle (Reply 391):

The 40kfpm descent from the engine data doesn't make sense and happened early on if the news story is correct or I'm not actually sure what they were referring too as other reports said the engine data stopped before they lost the transponder. The news story's themselves say the data was discounted but why it is so inaccurate is a bit strange without generating bad sounding errors at the same time. (Electrical/computer problems?)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-14 21:42:04 and read 27348 times.

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 383):
Malaysia confirms Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 was hijacked
[...]
The Malaysian prime minister is expected to brief the media later today.

The PM's twitter account states "PM Najib Razak will be making a press statement at approximately 1.30pm today, regarding #MH370"
http://twitter.com/NajibRazak/status/444691444008116224

That's about 50 minutes from now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 21:42:53 and read 26997 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 392):
I find it interesting that they have no new evidence - they have merely decided that the evidence they have conclusively proves that the flight was hijacked.

Agree 100% with your statement.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 395):
I'm sure they know more than us... not in a conspiracy theory sense, but just in general. People in the know seem to know more. They must be pretty sure to say it with such certainty...

But as I read it, the Malaysians are saying that, and, no offense to them, they haven't been the ones in the know. It's been the Americans that have provided the "true" leaks, and according to the article, they are still saying it is a possibility, but not a certainty.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: chrisrad
Posted 2014-03-14 21:44:21 and read 26756 times.

Have not heard this area being discussed yet!! Amazing

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 384):
KUALA LUMPUR - The last satellite transmission from a Malaysian airliner missing for a week has been traced to the Indian Ocean off Australia

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...d-be-traced-sea-australia-20140315

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flymia
Posted 2014-03-14 21:45:41 and read 26697 times.

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 383):
The official said that hijacking was no longer a theory. “It is conclusive,’’ he added.

If it is "conclusive' they must have a lot more information than they are sharing with the public. That being said they don't need to share it to the public but they better share it with other countries governments.

Quoting dreamflight767 (Reply 386):
What about the "Tech Crew"?

The tech crew was the two pilots. There were only two pilots on this flight, typical for a 6 hour flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 21:46:29 and read 26518 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 398):
I hear you on finding the bloody airport! 

First Mandela thanks me for providing the Tomnod data, and then you confirm to me that even the best of pilots (as I hold you as one) have a hard time finding the airport at night sometimes. I'd consider these threads a good booster to my self-esteem. I thought I was the only one that had a hard time with out the aid of instruements  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: DeltaAtl
Posted 2014-03-14 21:47:26 and read 26572 times.

So apparently a news Conf is schld in an hour or 1:30 Malay time and the authorities will announce it's a hijacking!

http://bit.ly/1iM50o0

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-14 21:49:19 and read 26243 times.

They had plenty of fuel to reach north-west Australia. This latest info just does not make any sense! Unless they flew so low and fast that the fuel consumption skyrocketed?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: ivanoruvan
Posted 2014-03-14 21:50:26 and read 26009 times.

If it's a hijack theory there has to be a military intelligence feeding the hijackers. To avoid the international military radars or where to land. How many countries have military and terrorists hand-in-hand? I know at least 2 in this part of the world. Don't ask me which. Question is, who has the guts to do it? (especially when US is against all forms of terrorism and China will defend it's nationalities vigorously) Opposing these two at the same time is asking for it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: CO953
Posted 2014-03-14 21:50:31 and read 26079 times.

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 404):
User currently offlinechrisrad From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1042 posts, RR: 9
Reply 404, posted Fri Mar 14 2014 23:44:21 your local time (2 minutes 5 secs ago) and read 322 times:

Have not heard this area being discussed yet!! Amazing

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 384):
KUALA LUMPUR - The last satellite transmission from a Malaysian airliner missing for a week has been traced to the Indian Ocean off Australia

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...d-be-traced-sea-australia-20140315

Functional LINK HERE:
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...d-be-traced-sea-australia-20140315

[Edited 2014-03-14 21:51:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-14 21:50:49 and read 26210 times.

Oh dear, if the article is correct
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...d-be-traced-sea-australia-20140315
and MH370 did go down west of Perth there is a lot of ocean to cover

Australia is responsible for over 10% of the Earth's surface with regard to SAR

https://www.amsa.gov.au

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: dreamflight767
Posted 2014-03-14 21:52:12 and read 25658 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 405):
The tech crew was the two pilots. There were only two pilots on this flight, typical for a 6 hour flight.

Thanks, didn't know they called Pilots "Tech Crew." Thought they were some MX folks or something of that nature.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-14 21:53:57 and read 25713 times.

Going out on a very wide tangent here but what if the 2 Iranian asylum seekers were originally hoping to get to Australia by illegal people smuggling vessels. Since the Australian crack down is it possible that these 2 men hijacked MH370 to Australia?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-14 21:57:55 and read 25168 times.

It sounds like they are going all out with the hijack "theory."

The Malaysian Prime Minister has a news conference in 30 min.

Quote:
At 12:40 p.m. local time on Saturday, the Malaysian prime minister’s Twitter account dispatched a message saying that “PM Najib Razak will be making a press statement at approximately 1.30pm today, regarding #MH370.”...

from

Malaysian Official: Missing Plane Was Hijacked

...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: seb146
Posted 2014-03-14 21:58:23 and read 24906 times.

I heard something interesting that 20 of the passengers all worked for the same software firm. Let me adjust my tin foil hat while we ponder on that one....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-14 21:58:37 and read 24864 times.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 414):
Going out on a very wide tangent here but what if the 2 Iranian asylum seekers were originally hoping to get to Australia by illegal people smuggling vessels. Since the Australian crack down is it possible that these 2 men hijacked MH370 to Australia?

The question is, if they did that and flew low to avoid radars through Indonesia, would that mean the fuel ran out before reaching Australia?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-14 21:58:48 and read 24864 times.

Many threads ago I felt it was a botched hijacking. Still feeling that way, though I would not claim it to be conclusive yet based on the info we have... I am no more sure than I was yesterday, but I do feel it was a botched hijacking that didn't work out they way they (whoever they are) wanted. When I first posted, there were many discussions about the plane landing somewhere. I don't believe they landed anywhere, and I do believe it crashed.

Maybe new evidence has surfaced that Malaysian authorities have that we do not have yet. I certainly think it was hijacked, but I wouldn't say its conclusive based upon what WE know.

Maybe it is a sad blessing the plane crashed.... and didnt reach a target. I still think the hijacker or hijackers may have tried to follow a plan, and then got lost after awhile. Maybe they didnt realize how fast things happen at 500 mph crossing narrow strips of land.

RIP to the victims.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 21:59:05 and read 24929 times.

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 412):
and MH370 did go down west of Perth there is a lot of ocean to cover

That's interesting because Perth is almost the exact same distance as Beijing.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=k...E=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: b777erj145
Posted 2014-03-14 22:00:52 and read 24650 times.

after reading all these post I am starting to believe that the plane was hijacked and was crashed later due to structure failure (being climbed upto 45000).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-14 22:00:53 and read 24605 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 409):
They had plenty of fuel to reach north-west Australia.

Did they? It seems awfully far for them to have gone north, then west, then south, then back east to Australia, while avoiding land-based radars as much as possible (except the one that caught them over Malaysia). They wouldn't have gone straight there; they'd have made sort of a circle around. I'm not sure if they'd have had enough fuel.

I mentioned the Ethiopian 961 scenario as a possibility a few threads ago; that may very well be what we're looking at here.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-14 22:01:11 and read 24628 times.

Does any one know if the Australian Defence Force Jindalee Over the horizon Radar Network was working on the evening of this event?

If so could it have picked up the flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-14 22:02:45 and read 24281 times.

It occurred to me In the past week that the Australian Outback could provide an Edwards AFB -like place to land a 777, but I thought it was too crazy to post. Perhaps not,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 22:03:25 and read 24183 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 416):
I heard something interesting that 20 of the passengers all worked for the same software firm. Let me adjust my tin foil hat while we ponder on that one....

I believe they were semi-conductor, not software. But I may be mistaken. I made a point about that as well in my post about Chinese espionage. It's hardly conclusive. But it does beg a question.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-14 22:04:18 and read 24011 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 421):
Did they?

Well, according to this, they had plenty:

http://leehamnews.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/mh370-search-area.jpg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: dcsben
Posted 2014-03-14 22:07:55 and read 23555 times.

If non-pilot hijackers intended to go west or south, why would they have targeted a flight heading north east? Why turn around, fly over the peninsula and risk being noticed by primary radar?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-14 22:08:44 and read 23404 times.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 416):

I heard something interesting that 20 of the passengers all worked for the same software firm. Let me adjust my tin foil hat while we ponder on that one....
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 424):
I believe they were semi-conductor, not software. But I may be mistaken. I made a point about that as well in my post about Chinese espionage. It's hardly conclusive. But it does beg a question.

They were Freescale employees going to a meeting. Ten years ago, you would have known this firm as Motorola. IBM made the same mistake in the 1980s when the head of their IBM PC project (Don Estridge) and a bunch of IBM employees and family members were on Delta 191 together. That flight crashed, and the IBM mainframe division took over the PC division, reversed several of Estridge's decisions, subsequently losing massive market share.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-14 22:09:23 and read 23701 times.

Quoting dcsben (Reply 426):

If non-pilot hijackers intended to go west or south, why would they have targeted a flight heading north east? Why turn around, fly over the peninsula and risk being noticed by primary radar?

Perhaps the plane flying north-east was carrying something that the hijackers wanted?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flyorski
Posted 2014-03-14 22:11:46 and read 23482 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 423):

It occurred to me In the past week that the Australian Outback could provide an Edwards AFB -like place to land a 777, but I thought it was too crazy to post. Perhaps not,

It has occurred to myself as well. This latest information of the aircraft almost reaching Australia reminds me of Banjawarn station. The fact that Aum Shinrikyo owned places like this and used it for nefarious purposes including a rumored, now discredited, nuclear explosion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjawarn_station

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-14 22:12:03 and read 23389 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 425):
Well, according to this, they had plenty:

Maybe... but first, those are just estimates - do we really know how much fuel they actually had to start with? Then you have to consider the flight path, which from what I've seen went further west-northwest than the arrow on that map shows (which has it going southwest). And the inner circle there is based on its last known position, not its position prior to turning south towards Australia. They'd have had to immediately turn towards Australia after their last known position for that map to be valid.

I don't know, it seems like it would be very close. The fact that we've heard nothing from the hijackers suggests to me that they didn't make it, wherever they were heading. Although the news reports right now (everyone seems to be printing the same wire report) talk about the hijackers as if the plane landed somewhere. But that's probably an assumption the media's making.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: asmvpgold
Posted 2014-03-14 22:14:51 and read 22818 times.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 414):
Going out on a very wide tangent here but what if the 2 Iranian asylum seekers were originally hoping to get to Australia by illegal people smuggling vessels. Since the Australian crack down is it possible that these 2 men hijacked MH370 to Australia?

It they wanted to go to Australia it would have been much (MUCH) easier to have just purchased tickets from KUL-> Australia instead of purchasing tickets to Europe.... so I think that theory is out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-14 22:17:39 and read 22382 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 430):
do we really know how much fuel they actually had to start with?

This is a question many of us have been asking this whole time, a relatively easy question for authorities to answer, yet no one has answered it to my knowledge. It is one of the more striking pieces of evidence to indicate pilot guilt if that number is different than expected. Yet no one has answered one way or another. It really makes me wonder.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: bermudatriangle
Posted 2014-03-14 22:18:23 and read 22211 times.

I think a detour south into the depths of the Indian Ocean (article seems to say 1k miles west of Perth, so still hours from Australian coast) fits with the murder / suicide theory and the idea that the terrorist pilot was "joyriding" and leading investigators on a chase before offing himself

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-14 22:20:58 and read 21874 times.

If the logic of hijackers was to stay undetected as much as possible and the plane stayed in the air close to its maximum allowed by fuel on board, it can significantly narrow search sector in Indian Ocean. Biggest probability would be the most distant point from the land...
It's sad however that a week was lost and who knows what debris are looking like now, we're they spread around and where is the FDR, which condition it's in. I hope it survived the impact, because it's the only thing from the board to witness what happened...

All the story should have big consequences to safety procedures, changes should come like they came after 9/11.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flymia
Posted 2014-03-14 22:21:05 and read 21808 times.

Quoting b777erj145 (Reply 419):
after reading all these post I am starting to believe that the plane was hijacked and was crashed later due to structure failure (being climbed upto 45000).

The engines would stall out before any structural issues.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: fiscal
Posted 2014-03-14 22:21:44 and read 21865 times.

In every hijacking I have known, the perpetrators want international attention to voice their message. They may plan well, execute it well, but in the end, their primary aim is to get that attention. The 911 hijackings were a bit different, but again the final act was to get attention, and the terrorist organizations were vocal and accepted responsibility.

In this case, if it is a hijacking, then to date no credible organization has owned up, so maybe it was a case of the pilots/crew/passengers knowing that their futures may be short lived, took action to make sure that the hijackers would perish with them before any further act could be carried out. Far fetched I know, especially if out in the middle of the ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-14 22:22:05 and read 21860 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 423):
It occurred to me In the past week that the Australian Outback could provide an Edwards AFB -like place to land a 777, but I thought it was too crazy to post. Perhaps not,

I've driven though the outback, no people, no mobile phone coverage, massive amounts of space, mostly flat.. But you would have to sneek it in past a pretty decent radar set.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2014-03-14 22:22:41 and read 21522 times.

Anyone know how to watch the presser?

tortugamon

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: PHX Flyer
Posted 2014-03-14 22:23:09 and read 21561 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 422):
It occurred to me In the past week that the Australian Outback could provide an Edwards AFB -like place to land a 777,

But what would be the point of landing it there? Obviously, there is no point keeping it here permanently, and refueling it to fly on from there would be quite a challenge.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-14 22:24:01 and read 21563 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 431):
This is a question many of us have been asking this whole time, a relatively easy question for authorities to answer, yet no one has answered it to my knowledge.

Hopefully they've looked into that now that they've concluded that someone with "experience flying" hijacked the plane. You would think the fuel load ordered by the pilots would be the first thing they'd look at in that case.

They've resisted this theory until now, so they probably saw no reason to look into it before, by their way of thinking.

Quoting fiscal (Reply 435):
In every hijacking I have known, the perpetrators want international attention to voice their message.

Most hijackers just want to get somewhere other than where the plane was originally going.

[Edited 2014-03-14 22:25:30]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: flymia
Posted 2014-03-14 22:24:36 and read 21379 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 437):
Anyone know how to watch the presser?

Had the same question. U.S. Stations have gone to pre-recorded news/shows. Hoping RT or CCTV has it on. Watching CCTV and nothing about the upcoming conference but they do have an interview with the CEO of MH.

CCTV will be showing it. Press Conference is about to start.

[Edited 2014-03-14 22:28:05]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: airlanka
Posted 2014-03-14 22:25:03 and read 21391 times.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 427):
Perhaps the plane flying north-east was carrying something that the hijackers wanted?

Well there was a load of Lithium batteries on board according to the reports. This can be easily can be converted to explosives in my view… So is this something that influenced potential hijackers to select this flight to hijack.

Then it poses the question if there is more to come on this incident. Perhaps the plane was landed and then converted to a flying bomb…. ?????

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2014-03-14 22:25:17 and read 21345 times.

Got it:

http://english.astroawani.com/

tortugamon

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-14 22:26:26 and read 21021 times.

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 438):
But what would be the point of landing it there? Obviously, there is no point keeping it here permanently, and refueling it to fly on from there would be quite a challenge.

Yup, getting fuel into the outback unnoticed would be a challange and the positioning doesn't lend itself to any real target. Not a logical place to take the 777 to.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2014-03-14 22:29:47 and read 20780 times.

So, with the hijacking theory now front and center - who on board did the deed?

1. Pilots: We haven't heard any credible reports that the pilots were facing financial or emotional difficulties, and if not the pilots, who on board could commandeer a plane and fly it for four or more hours?

2. Chinese Passengers: Nearly two hundred of the passengers are Chinese citizens - China has faced a number of hijacking attempts over the past several years so I suppose a disgruntled citizen could be behind this. But how many private Chinese citizens are pilots? Does China permit private aviation?

3. If not a Chinese citizen, then we've got the two Iranian citizens with the fake passports. No info has been released suggesting they are hijackers.

4. Which leaves the flight attendants, the tech crew and a smattering of persons from other countries.

Any thoughts?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2014-03-14 22:33:09 and read 20116 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 439):
Most hijackers just want to get somewhere other than where the plane was originally going.

If you are in Malaysia, there is no need to hijack a plane to go anywhere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-14 22:35:20 and read 19695 times.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 445):
If you are in Malaysia, there is no need to hijack a plane to go anywhere.

Not sure what you mean by this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-14 22:36:02 and read 19425 times.

Quoting dcsben (Reply 425):
If non-pilot hijackers intended to go west or south, why would they have targeted a flight heading north east? Why turn around, fly over the peninsula and risk being noticed by primary radar?

Maybe their intent was just to turn around and try to find a target in Malaysia, and ended up getting lost. The 9/11 planes all turned back east.

The flight path seemed erratic at first. I just think a non-pilot hijacker may have thought some city may have been easy to see at night, but had no clue how fast 500 mph is.

Or maybe their was a long drawn out battle in the cockpit like the FedEx attack years ago, between injured pilots and a hijacker, and in the end no one was in shape to fly the plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-14 22:37:09 and read 20787 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue the discussion in part 25 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Regards,

SA7700


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