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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-15 03:44:41 and read 67469 times.

Due to length part 25 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 26.

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**** SUMMARY PROVIDED BY MEMBER: rcair1 (Post 77 from thread 23) ****

First - synopsis
- The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing

- The last ACARS transmission was about 01:07 local. This does not mean ACARS was shut off - just that was the last transmission of ACARS data (See ACARS below)

- The last comms were a normal hand-off from Malaysia to Vietnam control at about 1:30 local

- It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.

- The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.

- There are some reports of a descent and turn based on primary radar. The descent was on the order of 3000 ft to 29,500.

- There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Straight.

- Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - we do not know that it is the accident a/c.

- We STILL do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns.

- We have 'reports' of SATCOM system pings for some hours after LOS (loss of signal)

- There is confusion (and argument) about the content of those pings and if those pings can provide location information (See SATCOM below)

- We have no ELT signal detected.


ACARS
- ACARS is an automated aircraft health management system that transmits a/c maintenance information to maintenance facilities like the airline, Boeing, Engine Manf, etc.

- ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight - it is a maintenance system

- ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.

- ACARS communicates via VHF or SATCOM (and maybe Wifi at the gate). The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.


ACARS data from MH370
- MH370 sent 2 ACARS (or rather Engine Health) reports to Rolls Royce. The last was approximately 1:07

- Rolls Royce's would have expected only 1 more transmission at landing - that was never received.

- NOTE: this fact is in dispute - some reports say a transmission every 20 minutes or so was expected - however I believe that to be incorrect.

- The fact that the last ACARS was sent some time before the transponder signal was loss does not mean ACARS was turned off at that time. ACARS transmissions on this ship are not continuous


SATCOM
- SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.

- SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.

- The last communication via SATCOM was the last ACARS message at 1:07


SATCOM Pings.
- The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites. These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here." They are often called "keep alive" signals.

- SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel.

- There are reports that SATCOM pings were heard for up to 4 or 5 hours into flight (or after LOS)

- NOTE: to those complaining it took to long to report this - remember the SATCOM pings are deep in the communications protocol and not what people would normally look at. How often do you look at the basic network traffic on your router?

- There is speculation that the SATCOM pings contain altitude, heading, speed. From a communications standpoint that does not make sense.

- I believe what is really happening is that experts in this system are trying to derive some location, speed, etc. information from the nature of the pings For instance, what satellites did they hit, when and how strong. Much like GPS, you may be able to derive information about location.


Way-point Tracks:
- There are reports and maps today of a track following way-points.

- The source (Radar? Satcom? Visual?) and veracity of this information is not confirmed.

- At this point I cannot state any factual data related other than it is being discussed in the press


Airworthiness Directive
- The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.

- The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna


Search Areas Based on this information - authorities are searching:
- Along the planed route

- West over the Malacca straight

- North west of Malacca straight

- Near the islands of Andaman and Nicobar. Indian a/c report nothing found in this area.

- Unconfirmed: in the Indian Ocean. Initial reports were the US was sending the KIDD there, but I believe those were wrong


Conspiracy Theories:
- There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.

- We have no data to support any of them.

- The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the 'government is hiding it' aspects

- It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.


Mobile phones
- We know that if any mobile phones were connected to the tower - we would have a location and would search there.

- We don't have any reports or evidence of that - so I conclude that it is not viable to consider.


We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.

- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.

- Complaints continue and will despite what any authority does till something happens.


We have had a lot of "false" sightings. I can not keep up.
- This is common and we need to investigate the credible ones. Most will be false.

- The Chinese Satellite data has not resulted in any findings.

- Indian aircraft have searched (some) near Andaman and Nicobar and nothing found


----------------------
In summary
We KNOW 4 things.
- The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.

- There is some evidence that it traveled west. But that evidence is not conclusive or sure.

- We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

- We have a better idea were it is NOT


**** SUMMARY PROVIDED BY MEMBER: rcair1 (Post 77 from thread 23) ****

************************************************************************************************


**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: Search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

************************************************************************************************


A REMINDER TO ALL OUR MEMBERS:


**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

**** Please do not repeat questions and scenarios that were covered and discussed in previous threads and which do not contribute in a constructive manner towards the real topic any longer. ****

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Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 04:00:26 and read 67093 times.

The inmarsat they used is the IOR 64.5 E based on the twitter image, https://twitter.com/sunshinesulin/status/444763082254868482/photo/1

And the coverage map,
http://www.voxmaris.com.ar/en/fleet77

That would put it within range of POR 178E as well which might have helped or made it even at all possible for just the last point to be roughly determined. (The other older pings might be so crudely estimated that it doesn't mean much).

But both area's have spot beam coverage but those are for higher speed transmissions I think.

But all in all the use of the global beam plot as the map is telling as it would be difficult for even experts to figure out an estimate as I doubt inmarsat is good at doing GPS like positioning.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: seahawk
Posted 2014-03-15 04:03:34 and read 66956 times.

I wonder why they rule out Somalia or Yemen and believe it went either NW or SW.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/vi...U&cid=mp&cv=9jjFBVTGZCs.de

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:04:19]

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:05:54]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: airkas1
Posted 2014-03-15 04:04:09 and read 66823 times.

I've been lurking these threads since the first one, without anything to add. But now I do have a question regarding the 'piggyback'-scenario.

On a route that long, wouldn't the 2 aircraft encounter at least a few aircraft going in the opposite way/same way? How likely would it be that one of those other aircraft makes a comment to the KL aircraft that another aircraft is trailing them closer than usual?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Voodoo
Posted 2014-03-15 04:06:48 and read 66639 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 2):

I wonder why they rule out Somalia or Yemen and believe it went either NW or SW.

Because those countries are heavily observed by satellite and drones?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 04:07:30 and read 66640 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 2):

They are just going off crude sat modem network ping location estimates and I'm pretty sure their maximum position for the last ping is an educated guess basically. The two possible directions is just shows how inaccurate using maybe two large global comm beam data to try and build a position off it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-15 04:07:50 and read 66649 times.

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 3):
On a route that long, wouldn't the 2 aircraft encounter at least a few aircraft going in the opposite way/same way? How likely would it be that one of those other aircraft makes a comment to the KL aircraft that another aircraft is trailing them closer than usual?

Would those other planes be able see the lower aircraft if it had no lights on, no transponder working etc on a moonless night?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 04:07:59 and read 66662 times.

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 3):

This, and also what about the moment they finally separated? ATC observing one plane becoming two would be feeling strange about it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-15 04:08:16 and read 66464 times.

If all lighting (internal and external) is switched off it would be harder to spot

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 04:09:51 and read 66482 times.

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 3):
I've been lurking these threads since the first one, without anything to add. But now I do have a question regarding the 'piggyback'-scenario.

On a route that long, wouldn't the 2 aircraft encounter at least a few aircraft going in the opposite way/same way? How likely would it be that one of those other aircraft makes a comment to the KL aircraft that another aircraft is trailing them closer than usual?

Trailing closer than usually would be an understatement to get the two radar returns to merge you would have to be pretty close (depending on the radar system) so they would be extremely close and not been seen by other aircraft nearby or the one they are tailing. One unexpected move and it will either be a mid-air collision or they would be discovered and reported quickly. One unexpected plane and they would be discovered.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: airkas1
Posted 2014-03-15 04:10:28 and read 66320 times.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 6):

I guess it would be really hard, yes. But in that scneraio, would they have flown the entire route under the cover of darkness? (genuine question)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: brilondon
Posted 2014-03-15 04:11:13 and read 66319 times.

To the poster in the previous thread about using a GPS from your car, it won't work due to the speed of the aircraft, you car doesn't usually travel at 800 kph and the limitations of an automotive GPS would never be able to update fast enough.

I have just read a news clip that Maylay officials now say it was a hijacking. I will only say RIP to those on board, I think it is safe to say they are not going to find any survivors.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 04:11:14 and read 66367 times.

If deliberate action took the 777 somewhere over the Indian Ocean to crash it there it sounds like insurance fraud to me. It will be found out soon if someone on board (maybe with added mental or otherwise grave personal problems like high debt) had a very high life insurance. That shouldnt be too difficult for a team of police detectives to do in a week.

But in case of deliberate action the chance is very, very high that one of the pilots was involved. Even the luckiest highjacker, the quickest and the wittiest needs some seconds to enter the cockpit, plenty of time for the pilot to press the emergency squawk button. Only a scenario where one of the pilots wasnt in the cockpit and/or the involvement of an FA could explain why the only one at the controls might not have pressed the button.

All other possible scenarios of deliberate kidnapping would involve a massive conspiracy, and then for sure involving some crew. The possible northern flightpath which the officials say is roughly on a line Kazakhstan-Northern Thailand, which means also over the main part of Burma/Myanmar, the most questionable, and the largest state in the northeastern Indian ocean area. Odd: why do they mention Thailand, when its further from this flightpath than Burma?

That said, I am amazed that the authorities have apparently not yet researched the background of ALL passengers and crew. Hard to believe that everyone on board was just a nice daddy or a harmless woman. This case became suspicious by the beginning of the week, plenty of time to know a lot by now. The words of the Malaysian PM today suggest that they are now investigating into who was on board, thoroughly I hope even if that will be further pain for their families.

What about a serious, but not immediately deadly structural failure event on board which partly disabled the controls and lead to the suspected odd flightpath until the fuel was exhausted or a mountain was in the way, I mean something along the lines of JAL123?

Quoting SA7700 (Thread starter):
- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.

Basically I agree with that, but here the main authorities of large countries are involved and not a local or regional emergency team.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 04:14:25 and read 65947 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 11):
To the poster in the previous thread about using a GPS from your car, it won't work due to the speed of the aircraft, you car doesn't usually travel at 800 kph and the limitations of an automotive GPS would never be able to update fast enough.

Just use the map mode. Why even try to use the road navigation 3d view when there isn't a road to follow. Also your iPad/Android can have offline map apps that do work in the air as far as I can tell. How good they are at doing air navigation I'm not sure as my phone has problems keeping the GPS working even on the ground or at sea.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SQA350
Posted 2014-03-15 04:16:12 and read 65740 times.

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 10):
I guess it would be really hard, yes. But in that scneraio, would they have flown the entire route under the cover of darkness? (genuine question)

Yes they would have. Last "contact" to MH370 was around 8.10am local Malaysian time. If they flew west, they would still have been in darkness.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 04:19:08 and read 65478 times.

Can we just go back and do a bit of an introduction to the history of terrorism to provide some context for people who might be unduly influenced by 9/11? (I spent most of my childhood in England, during a period of Irish terrorism.)

Important historical facts:

1) Hardly any hijackings have been executed by the pilot or crew. It is incredibly rare.

2) Hardly any hijackings have been to use the airplane as a weapon.

3) Most hijackers follow the successful model of the Israeli Irgun and Stern Gang terrorists who bombed and shot the British in the 1940s to obtain their independence. Their actions are usually intended:

a) to convince the enemy that the price they must pay to control the disputed territory is not worth paying. OR
b) to bargain for the release of imprisoned colleagues from their organisation. OR
c) to obtain (good) publicity for their cause.

(This is why 9/11 still attracts so much scepticism and so many conspiracy theories - it does not make any sense in terms of how international terrorists have practised throughout history and it seems to have caused massive damage to the infrastructure of the culprits, who lost their safe haven as a result.)

4) China has played an extremely smart hand in terms of how it has portrayed its battle against Uighur separatists in disputed western China. They have portrayed them as Muslim extremists allied to global terror, which has been music to American ears and has seen the Uighurs lose their funding and international support and has made them so weak that some of them actually have gravitated towards Islamic fundamentalism as the only source of support.

This last factor would explain why if the USA knew that China was hiding something (such as a failed assault on a hijacked aircraft) they would not necessarily want to go public with that information for fear of weakening global unity against Islamic terror organisations.

So please think carefully before assuming that the pilot is the number 1 suspect or that terrorists routinely use aircraft as weapons.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 04:20:32 and read 65254 times.

I'm curious also of what could be used as weapon on board to perform hijacking and are there any indications security flawed when scanning...
Also does MH have a security officer on board? Of course no security officer can fight with high altitude hypoxia, but at least he would know where oxygen bottles are located in the rear part, so if there was sudden and sharp altitude pitch he could get those and deal with the situation on the cockpit...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: airkas1
Posted 2014-03-15 04:22:46 and read 64993 times.

Quoting SQA350 (Reply 14):
Quoting airkas1 (Reply 10):
I guess it would be really hard, yes. But in that scneraio, would they have flown the entire route under the cover of darkness? (genuine question)

Yes they would have. Last "contact" to MH370 was around 8.10am local Malaysian time. If they flew west, they would still have been in darkness.

Ok, thanks!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 04:27:33 and read 64613 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 15):
So please think carefully before assuming that the pilot is the number 1 suspect or that terrorists routinely use aircraft as weapons.

Of course, but in the case that this plane was kidnapped without the involvement of the pilots or another member of the crew dont you think its totally unprofessional that one of the pilots didnt press the emergency squawk button? Thats easy and the very first thing to do. Otherwise such button is useless. I cannot think about a single scenario where the pilots would not have been able to press that button if not one of them (or an FA in the cockpit) was involved. Can you?

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:28:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 04:34:24 and read 63835 times.

Quoting na (Reply 18):

If someone was invited to cabin during take-off (as was mentioned, there are claims that F/O was noticed doing that before, I'm not sure about captain and I dind't see evidence of that, except of the news about Australian lady), than he could stay until IGARI, captain goes out, intruder deals with F/O, lock the door from inside and begins pitching plane up to 45000.
It's just a scenario of imagenary movie, but it's still possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 04:34:29 and read 63818 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 15):
1) Hardly any hijackings have been executed by the pilot or crew. It is incredibly rare.

That's how it was pre 9/11 times. But nowadays the truth is it's incredibly hard for any non-crew member to forcefully get into the cockpit, thus crew members should be the number one suspects if a commercial jetliner gets hijacked.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: UALWN
Posted 2014-03-15 04:34:45 and read 63856 times.

In this transcript

http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/257..._source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

the Malaysian prime minister is quoted as saying

"Based on new satellite information, we can say with a high degree of certainty that the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was disabled just before the aircraft reached the east coast of Peninsular Malaysia."

This would mean that it was disabled some 10 minutes before the last communication between pilots and ATC. So who disabled the system (which implies descending into the EE bay)? A hijacker, unnoticed? Unlikely. One of the pilots, unnoticed? Unlikely. Had the plane already been taken over at that point by whoever did the hijacking? Or is it just that the last ACARS message was received at that point, and the system was disabled at any time between then and whenever the next message was scheduled to be sent? But, in that case, why did the PM say what he said, which, hopefully, was very carefully worded?

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:36:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: seahawk
Posted 2014-03-15 04:34:56 and read 63818 times.

GPS on your mobile works. I used the Alpine Quest app quite a few times during flights when bored.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 04:37:46 and read 63609 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 21):
was disabled just before the aircraft reached the east coast of Peninsular Malaysia

It can be seen as "before it reached east coast but after turn around at IGARI", so after last transmission.

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:43:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BridYYC
Posted 2014-03-15 04:41:44 and read 63169 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 15):
Important historical facts:

1) Hardly any hijackings have been executed by the pilot or crew. It is incredibly rare.

2) Hardly any hijackings have been to use the airplane as a weapon.

3) Most hijackers follow the successful model of the Israeli Irgun and Stern Gang terrorists who bombed and shot the British in the 1940s to obtain their independence. Their actions are usually intended:

a) to convince the enemy that the price they must pay to control the disputed territory is not worth paying. OR
b) to bargain for the release of imprisoned colleagues from their organisation. OR
c) to obtain (good) publicity for their cause.

Fair points. However, 9/11 changed how terrorism and airplanes are linked. Historically, to your points, hijacking has been used as you say. But with 9/11, those airplanes were used to kill, shock, and instill fear. And that changed, in the public's eye as well as in the terrorists eye, what the potential was to use airplanes in ways that no one dared before. Frankly, from a terrorists perspective, it set a new standard if you will. I'm not trying to start a debate on 9/11 (please no...) rather say that when considering terrorism of some sort related to MH370, I don't know that history prior to 9/11 is the best indicator.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-15 04:42:27 and read 64816 times.

I would say it would be more likely, if a terrorist attack, the aircraft headed northwest to the border of Kazakhstan/Terkmenistan. They need to do detailed checks of all cleaners present on 9M-MRO as it was getting ready for MH370. Did all cleaners leave the plane? A gang of terrorists may have stayed in the cargo hold. Have either pilots got connections with any of the countries on the northwest corridor leading to Kazakhstan/Terkmenistan? I think once all these questions are answered, they will have a greater clue as to where this plane is. I'm beginning to think this plane is on the ground and not in the oceans. And in tact. This accident seems to have been planned methodically. ACARS was shut down intentionally. The transponder switched off as it ended it's radar contact with Malaysian airspace. No contact with Vietnamese airspace. A westerly turn back over the Malaysian peninsula as the transponder was turned off and contact with Malaysian airspace was ended. Whoever was in control of 9M-MRO as all communications was terminated had knowledge the northwest corridor had minimal military primary radar coverage.

Can I just say. If this fiasco with MH370 was the pilot's intention, is it essential pilots have the option of turning both the transponder and ACARS systems off? Why can't the aircraft be built in a way both systems are systematically turned on with no access to either system in the cockpit? Why would pilots need any access to altering both systems? Why would they both need to be turned off in any circumstance? Obviously they are systems, systems both paramount during flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 04:45:24 and read 65212 times.

A few more comments about the background to today's developments:

1) When the Malaysian PM spoke about one line heading towards the border between Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan that is Asian politician-speak for "it was heading towards Xinjiang in western China, or what the Uighurs call East Turkestan".

He is not going to offend China by saying so, so he names two countries adjacent to the area in question.

But all of us who study Asian politics knew precisely what he meant.

2) The other line he described, south towards Australia, makes no sense for a hijacking on anyone's terms.

3) No hijacker in his or her right mind is going to follow the other direction west across the Indian Ocean because it takes them to the American citadel of Diego Garcia, where they are not going to accidentally miss picking up a hijacked aircraft.

In other words, unless the motive is suicide - which I'm coming to - there is no point hijackers turning back and flying over the Malayan peninsula unless they are headed for the disputed area of Western China.

And so onwards to suicide.

I'm only aware of three such hijackings in history.

Egyptair 990 is disputed, but the relief First Officer who is widely blamed had a known history of mental illness dating from the Yom Kippur war

Silkair 185 is also disputed, with both the Indonesian investigators and Singapore Police Force not blaming the captain, and with the manufacturers of the rudder having paid $44 million to relatives of the deceased.

That leaves only LAM 470 three months ago, and while the pilot appears to be responsible we are yet to hear anything of the pilot's mental state or other motives.

In the circumstances, the chances that this is a pilot suicide are remarkably remote, and we must assume that this is a case of politically motivated hijacking.

Which, it must be said, does not in itself exonerate the flight crew. They, like the Uighurs, were Moslems and may share their political aspirations. In addition, we don't know the domestic political affiliations of the flight crew, and whether or not they were outraged by the conviction the previous day of the main Malaysian opposition politician for "sodomy".

But if the flight crew were the hijackers, political motivation is far more likely - according to history - than life insurance fraud.

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:50:56]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: VC315
Posted 2014-03-15 04:51:56 and read 66521 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 15):
This last factor would explain why if the USA knew that China was hiding something (such as a failed assault on a hijacked aircraft) they would not necessarily want to go public with that information for fear of weakening global unity against Islamic terror organisations.

That's not enough reason on this earth for the US to do such a cover-up for Chinese government, especially when's no proven evidence suggesting the possible hijacking is associated with the Uyghurs separatists. If the plane was shot down in China, it'd be a perect chance for some anti-China propaganda from the US (as you said, it'd be a failed/inhumane effort to resolve the hijack which resulted in the loss of 200+ civilian lives), while still able to point the blame onto terrorists at the same time.

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:59:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-15 04:53:39 and read 66103 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
But all of us who study Asian politics knew precisely what he meant.

And seems to be backed up by subsequent press briefings.

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
2) The other line he described, south towards Australia, makes no sense for a hijacking on anyone's terms.

Completely agree.

I return to this point, I don't see this as terrorism in the sense of killing or using the plane as a weapon. Rather I think this points to what is on board the aircraft among the passengers or in the belly. Some reporters have talked about cargo not being screened and that's an area that hasn't been talked about much ... perhaps there was something down there of high value. Or perhaps having 225 hostages for separatist political purposes is the point. If this is the reason, maybe someone in the cockpit was bribed to participate or willingly hand over control of the plane - thus no emergency alarm.

It does seem now to be indisputable that the plane was hijacked and that it is not a classic terrorist act that fits normal (now including 911 like) patterns. There is something new afoot and I have a feeling that it will become known quite soon.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-15 04:57:14 and read 65502 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):

I'm agreeing with your opinion that suicide is unlikely- i can't see that being an option after such meticulous planning was involved.

Has anyone come up with an actually plausible theory as to why the plane pitched up to 45,000 ft from 23,000?

Knocking out the passengers, perhaps?

Despite the Hollywood scenarios, something as complicated and perfectly executed as this would denote a means to an end- that aircraft is intact and on the ground somewhere. Where, we cannot know- but the passengers may be being held as hostage.

I just hope that they're still alive- and they very well might be.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 28):
There is something new afoot and I have a feeling that it will become known quite soon.

exactly. and i'm pretty sure the authorities that be know the details, but for security reasons cannot divulge.

[Edited 2014-03-15 04:59:29]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: infinitybeyond
Posted 2014-03-15 04:59:45 and read 65708 times.

Apparently there was an emergency drill at Nanning airport precisely on the night MH370 disappeared.

http://translate.google.com/translat...%2Fnewsshow.aspx%3Fidnews%3D245161

Wonder if this could be the reason why there was rumor that it landed at Nanning in the first place?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 05:01:28 and read 65148 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
Egyptair 990 is disputed, but the relief First Officer who is widely blamed had a known history of mental illness dating from the Yom Kippur war

Who disputes that still? Only certain Egyptians who deny the obvious without reason. That guy was facing accusations of sexual assault of some kind, he was heard praying and he was alone in the cockpit before he made deliberate control inputs bringing the plane down. There cant be a doubt that it was suicide. To me this is a much clearer case than the, sorry to repeat it, infamous TWA800.

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
But all of us who study Asian politics knew precisely what he meant.

Interesting input, thank you.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: VC315
Posted 2014-03-15 05:05:37 and read 64414 times.

Quoting infinitybeyond (Reply 30):

Apparently there was an emergency drill at Nanning airport precisely on the night MH370 disappeared.

http://translate.google.com/translat...%2Fnewsshow.aspx%3Fidnews%3D245161

Wonder if this could be the reason why there was rumor that it landed at Nanning in the first place?

But that's hours before the flight even took off...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 05:05:55 and read 64504 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 29):
I'm agreeing with your opinion that suicide is unlikely- i can't see that being an option after such meticulous planning was involved.

What meticulous planning? For all we know the hijacker could have just locked the door when the other pilot went to toilet & then changed aircraft's heading towards Indian Ocean, assuming it was hijacked by one of the pilots.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: asetiadi
Posted 2014-03-15 05:07:43 and read 64462 times.

If this is a hijacking... and sure it becoming more likely... then I will blame Malaysia Airlines 100%. Why? Because they allowed a hijacker enter the cockpit. Airplane nowadays should cannot be hijacked. No matter how intense the situation on the back of the plane, a pilot cannot risk 1 passenger death or several passenger getting hurt by a hijacker vs losing the whole plane. Anyway there are 239 passengers, lets say if there are 2 or 3 people trying to hijack the plane then I am sure 200 people vs 3 hijacker... well you do the math. This should be a well lesson learned for every plane in the world now. My only hope now is that hijacker able to land the plane and all passengers safe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-15 05:09:03 and read 63860 times.

Sorry, I did not see the press conference. What hard new information (info with given data, verified by given sources) emerged?

I see it may be embarassing for Malaysia to explain why an unidentified aircraft heading towards Malaysian airspace would prompt no response. If I am correct, Malaysia now says that an unidentified aircraft 70m+ x 60m+ in size is believed to have flown over the Malaysian peninsular a week ago. Either Malaysia's primary air defence radar is almost useless or operated in a manner that is almost useless for MH370 not to have been seen on its primary radar. If it was spotted a week ago, why has it taken so long to reach the conclusion that it overflew Malaysia?

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:11:31]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BridYYC
Posted 2014-03-15 05:10:18 and read 63659 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 29):
I just hope that they're still alive- and they very well might be.

Wishful thinking. I echo the wishful part but I can't logically make that work. Why would anyone keep 239 people hostage and the best kept secret in the world?

If the plane did go down in the Indian Ocean as is being suggested by the US, I'm trying to think why? Surely, if the intent of the hijacking was to take a plane down, they didn't need to fly for 4-5 hours to do it. Could something have gone wrong with their plan? As they got close to their goal, it suddenly wasn't able to be realized due to some unknown things and decided to take the plane down instead? Is there a possibility that we have another United 93 on our hands? Could the passengers have realized something was amiss and took action which sadly brought the plane down?

Just trying to find a logical reason it went down in the Indian Ocean

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:11:42]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2014-03-15 05:11:22 and read 63772 times.

I think it's interesting the time of the last signal from the aircraft: just after 8am. This is just after sunrise which means that the aircraft could have flown all night and landed in daylight at minimum weight with almost no fuel somewhere in the desert in western China. Any large flat open area or long straight road could have been used. From its last known position over the Indian Ocean it could have flown north over Bangladesh and then the Himalayas. Flying relatively low over the mountains would keep it out of radar coverage. What would be interesting would be how much fuel was loaded onto the aircraft and why (if it was more than normally required). It would be interesting as well to know what sort of routes and approaches the captain was practicing on his simulator, and if he has ever visited Xingjiang province or stayed in China for any length of time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 05:12:16 and read 63491 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 15):
This last factor would explain why if the USA knew that China was hiding something (such as a failed assault on a hijacked aircraft) they would not necessarily want to go public with that information for fear of weakening global unity against Islamic terror organisations.
Quoting VC315 (Reply 27):
That's not enough reason on this earth for the US to do such a cover-up for Chinese government, especially when's no proven evidence suggesting the possible hijacking is associated with the Uyghurs separatists. If the plane was shot down in China, it'd be a perect chance for some anti-China propaganda from the US (as you said, it'd be a failed/inhumane effort to resolve the hijack which resulted in the loss 200+ civilian lives), while still able to point the blame onto terroists at the same time.

With respect, that is not the scenario that I put forward in the last thread.

My scenario was as follows:

1) Uighur sympathisers (possibly including one or both pilots) hijack the aircraft over the Gulf Of Thailand.

2) They switch off all transponders, then turn back and cross the Malayan pensinsula, then turn towards the Chinese-leased Great Coco Island north of the Indian Andaman Islands. They either want a prisoner swap or a publicity coup.

3) They make contact with Chinese authorities, who tell them that they cannot fly to Xinjiang (they would have to cross Indian air space) but can fly over Burma and land in southern China at a designated airport, which is probably a remote air force base. The trap is set.

4) The Chinese authorities want to storm the aircraft as soon as possible after landing - while they still have total secrecy - but they haven't got time to deploy an elite team and have to use whatever local SWAT team is available in the middle of the night on a Friday in this small provincial area.

5) The Chinese switch off all cellphone towers prior to landing to ensure that passengers cannot communicate with the outside world.

6) The assault is a debacle, with the lack of preparation compromising it from the start down to the smallest details, such as the height of ramp stairs. It's the 2010 Manila bus hijacking all over again, where the SWAT team took 55 minutes from the start of the assault to gain entry into the bus.

7) There are mass casualties.

8) The government immediately goes into "save face" mode, destroying all traces of events, and pointing its finger at the Gulf of Thailand to buy time to wipe out all traces of what happened.

9) If/when the US government pieces together what happened, it is clear that nothing is going to bring back the dead hostages. Political considerations then prevail: what price can be extracted from the Chinese for American silence? This is not the only game in town: America would appreciate Chinese support over North Korea and possibly even in the Security Council after the Crimean referendum. "Maybe the airplane's somewhere in the Indian Ocean?"

Here is what the media mogul Rupert Murdoch tweeted last Monday:

"777crash confirms jihadists turning to make trouble for China. Chance for US to make common cause, befriend China while Russia bullies."

So as I wrote, even if the US did know that China had launched a bungled rescue mission which killed the passengers, there would be a strong political motive for the US to help China out of that sticky predicament.

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:23:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-15 05:20:15 and read 62457 times.

I have read the past 25 threads and have not come across these questions I´m going to ask, nor are they in the very well prepared summaries:

1) Why Malaysia? What is it about Malaysia that this hijack (as per the PM) was planned and executed on a flight from KUL to PEK? Who does Malaysia persecutes? Of those, which groups are able to put a stunt like this?

2) Why Malaysia Airlines? This question relates to the above sure, but why exactly MH? Why not the KL flight that took off at a similar time or a plane from, say, TG? What is specific to MH that would make such an operation be planned on an MH plane and not on the plane of any other airline?

3) Why a 777? Did the hijacker (s) knew the flight was going to be a 777? How and where is this info. available to people outside flight ops? Were they looking for a 777 exactly or it just happened to be a 777 assigned to that flight and the people who did this would have gone along on any other airliner? Did theyknow the fuel load and planned accordingly or was it the other way around?

4) Why flight 370? If their intention was to fly in the general direction of Europe, why not execute this operation on a Europe bound plane? It would have been much easier and nobody would have been the wiser until much, much later.

I think that the answers to these questions are relevant to understanding what really happened. Anybody care to take a shot?

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:23:58]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: asetiadi
Posted 2014-03-15 05:21:53 and read 62284 times.

Reply no.39

If that is true... thats gonna be the next blockbuster summer movie

Now I have one million dollar question.... how are they going to keep the surviving hostages mouth shut off forever and not tell the true story. Impossible ....

Now i have this question.... can somebody on the ground remotely access the flight control and everything and fly the plane from the ground??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SLCGuy
Posted 2014-03-15 05:22:41 and read 61918 times.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, I've tried to follow all 26 threads and Moderaters summaries but this a hard thing to follow.

Since this is starting to sound like a movie script, heard a news person asking if there could have been a bomb in the cargo hold, doubt that. But, made me think, what about something valuable cargo in the cargo hold? If so, what's the possibility of this being a heist, and the plane was taken and landed somewhere? Have they checked all the airfields in the 2000 mile range they are looking at?

It wouldn't have to be a major airport, just something paved or dirt long enough to get a 777 down and stopped, they wouldn't be worried about getting it out.

Just thought of the biggest flaw in my theory, most cargo is in containers, doubtful there would be equipment needed to unload it barring a lot of man power, but still possible.

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:33:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-15 05:23:28 and read 61868 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
What meticulous planning? For all we know the hijacker could have just locked the door when the other pilot went to toilet & then changed aircraft's heading towards Indian Ocean, assuming it was hijacked by one of the pilots.

look, nothing can proven at this point so it is speculation. But realistically, the timing of everything just seems to be a little too coincidental- the vanishing act a little too perfect and the command of knowledge required to even attempt this, by either the pilot or an unknown quantity- is huge. I'm sorry, this was meticulously planned- not spur of the moment.

i'm guessing handover to a different ATC to be a bad time to take a leak, but i'm no pilot.

if you think otherwise, fine.

Quoting BridYYC (Reply 36):
Wishful thinking. I echo the wishful part but I can't logically make that work. Why would anyone keep 239 people hostage and the best kept secret in the world?

Wishful, perhaps- but possible? definitely. So until the corpses are found I'm going to keep that hope that they may have survived because beyond the james bond plots there's 239 or so families out there living a nightmare of terror and fear.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 05:24:54 and read 61714 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
possibly including one or both pilots

Pilots, being relatively well established people, would go on this, flying Malaysian aircraft away? Fails for me. I don't see the sense for them doing so. It's respected airline, pilots were enjoying life from what we know about them, so how they shifted into such an act because of ideology is beyond me...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-15 05:24:57 and read 61673 times.

If I am reading correctly, they think the plane either headed north or south. Has it been explained why they don't know for sure?
Maybe they had only two range measurements which would give you two possibilities.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-15 05:25:35 and read 61624 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 15):
Important historical facts:

1) Hardly any
2) Hardly any

Agreed. But nevertheless insignificant. There were also hardly any terrorists that flew airliners into skyscrapers before 9/11.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 05:26:17 and read 61538 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 41):

My shot is that either one of the pilots or possibly some other crew member had developed some kind of serious mental illness over the time and did this without any clear, logical motive. Possibly he could still feel some shame about his action, so he decided to hide the evidence by flying the aircraft into Indian Ocean, somewhere far away.

Possibly the hijacker got influenced by LAM 470, which could be at least one of the reasons for choosing MH 370 due to similar flight number.

Of course also some life insurance money could be involved together with mental illness..

People with serious mental problems committing totally pointless acts of violence isn't anything totally unheard of, not at all.

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:29:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BridYYC
Posted 2014-03-15 05:27:16 and read 61411 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 41):
1) Why Malaysia? What is it about Malaysia that this hijack (as per the PM) was planned and executed on a flight from KL to PEK? Who does Malaysia persecutes? Of those, which groups are able to put a stunt like this?

2) Why Malaysia Airlines?



I've asked the same question (to myself.) The only logical conclusion I could reach is that it was an inside job and they went with who they could get to do it. They got some Malaysian crew to do it, so therefore Malaysia and Malaysian Air.

I suppose if it wasn't an inside job, then they may have studied various flights and their security protocols and determined that Malaysia Air had the best chance of getting into a cockpit, but that is pure speculation.

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:45:58]

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:46:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 05:27:36 and read 61351 times.

How do we know there was no demand made? What if demand already made but ignored or maybe still going on but Malaysia (Msia) is keeping quiet about it?
While we are focusing on international terrorists, shouldn't we also pay attention the local issues that could prompted the disappearance of the plane.

March 8 would have been a very significant day for Msia and would have made international news for another reason but somehow MH370 disappearance superseded another event which would have brought attention to the Msia government. No,! I am not suggesting the disappearance has got anything to do with Msia government but I am asking could local events been the reason.

Tapir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-15 05:27:38 and read 61341 times.

Oh, and by the way, since we are far beyond Twilight Zone territory now, I will refrain from subscribing to any theory until more hard facts are known. At this point nothing (except the 777-as-a-rocket theory) would sound implausible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-15 05:27:45 and read 61434 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 38):
I think it's interesting the time of the last signal from the aircraft: just after 8am. This is just after sunrise which means that the aircraft could have flown all night and landed in daylight at minimum weight with almost no fuel somewhere in the desert in western China.

This would assume that the air defence systems of any country overflown failed to respond to the uninvited intrusion into their airspace of an extremely large (in comparison with strike aircraft) unidentified aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-15 05:30:28 and read 60957 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 2):
I wonder why they rule out Somalia or Yemen and believe it went either NW or SW.

2 possible reasons?
1. The amplitude of the satellite pings? Not sure you can tell that when the geostationary orbit is, what, 30k Km up? But if you can, they would then know the aircraft didn't fly directly below the satellite, and your map shows its location.
2. There is believed to be a joint GCHQ/NSA sigint base in BIOT. Now, we British aren't that great at much anymore, but we still seem to excel at eavesdropping.

Just like to say thanks to rcair for the "FAQ" and SA7700 for including it. I'd pretty much given up on this thread as going round in circles, but that's really helped. Probably wants updating in light of the Malaysian PM's speech though, though I can't see a transcript of it, only reports.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2014-03-15 05:31:34 and read 60802 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
The other line he described, south towards Australia, makes no sense for a hijacking on anyone's terms.

I agree 100%. If it is out there in the ocean west of Perth (which is looking increasingly unlikely) then it was either suicide or the aircraft ran out of fuel with nobody at the helm.


I was fascinated by the the theory of stalking KLM in the past thread, although personally I don't buy the Iran line as, IMHO, it is totally fanciful. I did however take a look at Flightradar24 to see if any aircraft were heading from SIN/KUL/BKK towards western China or Kazakhstan at the time in question. My opinion is that there weren't, and therefore MH370 couldn't "piggy back" off another airplane from the Bay of Bengal towards that region. Can anyone with more time confirm that?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 05:32:00 and read 60657 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
5) The Chinese switch off all cellphone towers prior to landing to ensure that passengers cannot communicate with the outside world.

6) The assault is a debacle, with the lack of preparation compromising it from the start down to the smallest details, such as the height of ramp stairs. It's the 2010 Manila bus hijacking all over again, where the SWAT team took 55 minutes from the start of the assault to gain entry into the bus.

7) There are mass casualties.

8) The government immediately goes into "save face" mode, destroying all traces of events, and pointing its finger at the Gulf of Thailand to buy time to wipe out all traces of what happened.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 40):
No point to do that, they could have just blamed the hijackers for all those casualties. That way they could have justified use of even harsher methods against the Uighur rebels.

Except for the fact that I doubt that all of the passengers would have been killed in the actual assault.

There would be dozens - maybe even hundreds - of highly inconvenient witnesses who might testify that the hijackers had treated them humanely and that the assault took place without any negotiations preceding it.

In the circumstances, would you bet against a totalitarian government simply making sure that no evidence survived?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 05:36:26 and read 59699 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 56):
There would be dozens - maybe even hundreds - of highly inconvenient witnesses who might testify that the hijackers had treated them humanely and that the assault took place without any negotiations preceding it.

In the circumstances, would you bet against a totalitarian government simply making sure that no evidence survived?

Well it wouldn't really be the first rescue operation going wrong, I don't think it would be serious enough to justify hiding the whole thing. It's not like China would have much of a reputation regarding human rights to protect anyway.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: YoungMans
Posted 2014-03-15 05:36:56 and read 59747 times.

Further to 25/308 ....
Not all that long ago, the Iranians forced down an unmanned US aircraft, intact, a drone. It did make the news at the time but not for long and certainly not in any great detail. It must have been technology at play that the general public (myself included) is not really aware of. In fact, it shouldn’t have happened because, if all else fails, a drone has apparently the inbuilt means to self-destruct - autonomously.

Is it possible, then, that a similar kind of technology was used to force-land an airliner (MH-370) of this size and regardless of whether the crew is willingly participating or not? Maybe the crew have to provide hands-on assistance at final approach and actual landing, ... or else everyone on board dies. It would certainly explain a fair few of the puzzling questions.

We certainly have a precedent for that kind of technology, if not weaponry.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2014-03-15 05:39:55 and read 59787 times.

I think I know where the aircraft is. I think it landed on the G217 highway on the stretch south of the city of Aral in Xinjiang Province, Western China. Take a look at this location on Google maps, and see how wide, straight and long this road is, in a flat unpopulated area with no traffic for many miles.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8478645,80.9656271,7z

Then look at map on WSJ of the possible location transmitted at 8:10am. It is an exact match. The river Hotan would have provided a perfect visual reference from a high altitude and would guide the aircraft down to the road. This road has stretches almost 10km long that are perfectly straight, with no traffic and just sand dunes on both sides. If the aircraft flew here from the last know position in the Indian Ocean, it would have overflown Bangladesh and the Himalayas during the night and arrived in this area just around dawn. At this time the road would be empty, and no-one would be around to see it land. It could then have moved off to the side at a pre-determined place and been hidden behind the sand dunes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 05:41:18 and read 59093 times.

Is cargohold accessible from the flight deck on 772? Should you depressurize the cabin for it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 05:42:14 and read 58967 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 60):

Or maybe the aircraft secretly got more fuel and it flew to Antarctica. That's the best place to hide an airliner, no random people around to spot it, no telephone connections. Then one could just load whatever they were looking for into a ship & leave the aircraft & pax there with no chance of any of them ever contacting outside world.

Really I believe it ditched into the Indian Ocean.

[Edited 2014-03-15 05:46:04]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-15 05:44:31 and read 58727 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 61):
Is cargohold accessible from the flight deck on 772? Should you depressurize the cabin for it?

No, it is not accessible from the flight deck.

The cargo hold, flight deck and passenger cabin are in the same pressure vessel. You cannot separate them for pressurization purposes. They're all at the same pressure.

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:00:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-15 05:44:43 and read 58962 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 60):

Yes, sounds plausible (not) to hide a 300 ton aircraft behind some dunes in a desert. This is what happens when an aircraft drives on normal asphalt: http://i.imgur.com/oklfA.jpg No explain me how to move a 777 through sand  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: VC315
Posted 2014-03-15 05:47:57 and read 58412 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
2) They switch off all transponders, then turn back and cross the Malayan pensinsula, then turn towards the Chinese-leased Great Coco Island north of the Indian Andaman Islands. They either want a prisoner swap or a publicity coup.

(1) We don't know for sure there is a Chinese military station at Great Coco Island/Coco Islands - there're speculations however they seen have been debunked by India and the US. (2) The airport at Great Coco Island has a runway length of 1,354m.

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
4) The Chinese authorities want to storm the aircraft as soon as possible after landing - while they still have total secrecy - but they haven't got time to deploy an elite team and have to use whatever local SWAT team is available in the middle of the night on a Friday in this small provincial area.

Wait, you're suggesting they can't storm the the aircraft with their air force men or marine corps at a military air base but have to resource the job to SWAT team?

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
5) The Chinese switch off all cellphone towers prior to landing to ensure that passengers cannot communicate with the outside world.

Don't you think there'll be reports on social media about that level of outage given you think it took place in Southern China, again, please keep in mind of the denstity of population - the 'remote areas' in South China are nothing like remote areas in Australia. Also, bear in mind it requires quite some levels of coordination. Unless they never intended to save the hostages (then why bother to set the trap), otherwise it's gonna be an unexpected failure.

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
9) If/when the US government pieces together what happened, it is clear that nothing is going to bring back the dead hostages. Political considerations then prevail: what price can be extracted from the Chinese for American silence? This is not the only game in town: America would appreciate Chinese support over North Korea and possibly even in the Security Council after the Crimean referendum. "Maybe the airplane's somewhere in the Indian Ocean?"

That's just too much consipiracies and beyond my comprehension.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 05:48:03 and read 58070 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 60):
Then look at map on WSJ of the possible location transmitted at 8:10am. It is an exact match.

First of all WSJ is always mixing things up the last possible "position" is more like the last probable limits of where they think it could have gone. The inmarsat system isn't a GPS network and can't give much positional information especially if they are using the large global beam as their only source of data.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-15 05:48:36 and read 58141 times.

I read that the US is searching the south as that is most probable. And that the authorities have just now started to search the pilots home. That took a while.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 05:50:53 and read 57682 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 64):

Ok, thanks. So it means no special equipment or tools could be obtained from there during the flight and all hijacker would operate should be in his hand luggage. What would he need to perform it? If this could be somehow listed and scan records (well, I'm not sure they are stored though) could be looked through, there could be a list of potential hijackers and then it could focus the search...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-15 05:51:23 and read 57734 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 68):
And that the authorities have just now started to search the pilots home. That took a while.

I doubt it. Today is when the info. is coming out but I bet that as soon as they started sending ships toward the Malacca strait they were already searching those houses.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flyinTLow
Posted 2014-03-15 05:51:29 and read 57824 times.

Quoting na (Reply 18):

There is no such thing as an emergency squawk button. You have to enter the squawk code 7700 into the transponder. This then in return shows the radar echo as an emergency solely on the air traffic controlers screen as an emergency. You make it sound like a red panic button...

Quoting UALWN (Reply 21):

That is the one thing I am wondering, too. In order to turn off ACARS you have to have some kind of system knowledge. My knowledge is only about the A320 ACARS, so I am not sure about the B777's ACARS. But in order to turn it off, you either have to pull a circuit breaker (which, if I am not mistaken, is not necessarily in the cockpit of 777). But then again that would turn off the entire ACARS, which I am guessing might make the possibility of those rumoured "pings" impossible.
The other possiblity: normally ACARS runs on VHF3 or SATCOM. Would switching off VHF3 cause the ACARS to stop sending precise information, yet still allowing the ACARS to "ping" in order to allow a faster allocation when it is turned back on?

Just my thoughts.

Cheers!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 05:52:58 and read 57493 times.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 59):
Not all that long ago, the Iranians forced down an unmanned US aircraft, intact, a drone. It did make the news at the time but not for long and certainly not in an

Russians did too but those were autonomous.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 29):
Has anyone come up with an actually plausible theory as to why the plane pitched up to 45,000 ft from 23,000?

I assumed it was struggle in the cabin. Even if Radar is off, its by 15% so clearly there was some abrupt movement either way.

Can someone explain to me why Iran is under so much suspicion? The have a total of 0 777's and it was probably the first or second flight 777 of those two passengers. They haven't had a new Boeing in 34 years. Do any of Iran's planes even have ACARS or SatCom communications? Of all the nationalities, those are actually the two least suspicious. Everyone else onboard had access to a 777 potentially.

How are you going to silence all the comms of a new 777-200ER and then hijack it somewhere without some kind of previous experience.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 05:53:55 and read 57446 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 68):
And that the authorities have just now started to search the pilots home. That took a while.

Exactly, why the delay when the plane actually flew the wrong direction and no demand made by anyone so far? Are they avoiding unnecessary attention to the pilot prior to this?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 05:56:17 and read 56920 times.

Quoting flyinTLow (Reply 71):
That is the one thing I am wondering, too. In order to turn off ACARS you have to have some kind of system knowledge. My knowledge is only about the A320 ACARS, so I am not sure about the B777's ACARS. But in order to turn it off, you either have to pull a circuit breaker (which, if I am not mistaken, is not necessarily in the cockpit of 777). But then again that would turn off the entire ACARS, which I am guessing might make the possibility of those rumoured "pings" impossible.
The other possiblity: normally ACARS runs on VHF3 or SATCOM. Would switching off VHF3 cause the ACARS to stop sending precise information, yet still allowing the ACARS to "ping" in order to allow a faster allocation when it is turned back on?

It doesn't make sense that someone with inside knowledge wouldn't know to turn off the transmitters SATCOM, VHF instead of just selectively turning off ACARS system. From what has been reported the inmarsat modem was still transmitting so the antenna, amp would all still have power. Not to mention ACARS doesn't constantly report so I still don't know where they are getting the deliberately shut off other than it stopped reporting later.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: VC315
Posted 2014-03-15 06:00:22 and read 56495 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 39):
With respect, that is not the scenario that I put forward in the last thread.

Still, if the plane was downed in China, or trapped or stormed in China with large casualities, the US/rest of the world could still blame the hijack on terrorists (regardless who did it, and Chinese government would also need that to justify the assult, no?), while agressively criticise China for the response that causes mass casualities.

Again, there's no motive for the US to cover this up for Chinese government.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: cat3appr50
Posted 2014-03-15 06:00:32 and read 56419 times.

Was this aircraft equipped with passenger Wi-Fi capability? If so, there is certainly internet connectivity data and cell phone ping data. Are these additional (outside the cockpit) communication modes being investigated?

The perpetrators having (as proven/reported) purposely shut off the transponder and comms. to obviously avoid ATC detection/following, and in addition ACARS, they were likely going to fly a flight path to avoid primary surveillance radar range/detection when they turned Westward at IGARI WP. The flight path noted via satellite pings was seemingly following an avoid-primary-radar path. Therefore, it’s IMO unlikely that they would have flown into Pakistan or India airspace where they would have been detected by military or commercial primary surveillance radar. And if that did happen, it’s logical that either the Pakistani’s or India’s military would have scrambled military jets.

Given the logical conclusion (as being reported) of this being a sabotage or highjack with currently unknown ultimate motive, are all passengers, flight crew, (and of course pilot and FO) etc. cell phone, Facebook, internet email, etc. records being immediately screened?

Given the information to date, I still maintain as previously commented that this aircraft may have flown to the Maldives Islands area and either landed somewhere there (there are two runways that could accommodate a B777) or crashed due to fuel exhaustion short of them. The total flight time from satellite pings being reported supports this. A turn from the original NW flight path toward the Maldives area could have occurred.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-15 06:04:26 and read 56085 times.

What if this is a joy ride gone bad. Lets assume crew wanted to take it to 45,000. May be they practiced at home. This event started in the only VHF coverage gap between Malaysia on Vietnam. Though VHF range is kind of irrelevant over 30,000. ACARS is disabled so engines won't notify RR. But something went wrong when it reached 45,000.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-15 06:05:36 and read 55950 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 71):

Quoting laddb (Reply 68):
And that the authorities have just now started to search the pilots home. That took a while.

Exactly, why the delay when the plane actually flew the wrong direction and no demand made by anyone so far? Are they avoiding unnecessary attention to the pilot prior to this?

The pilot was not a suspect a few days ago since there was no reason to believe nefarious intent. In a democracy, you can't go searching homes without probably cause. The need for a search warrant is one of the foundations of the legal system, and for good reason.

At this point, though, a judge can rule probable cause and issue a warrant. At the very least the investigators can prove that they must have access in order to further the investigation.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 72):
t doesn't make sense that someone with inside knowledge wouldn't know to turn off the transmitters SATCOM, VHF instead of just selectively turning off ACARS system-

Given that to turn off SATCOM and ACARS you have to crawl into the E/E bay, it is plausible that our hypothetical hijackers did not or could not leave the cockpit.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 74):

What if this is a joy ride gone bad. Lets assume crew wanted to take it to 45,000. May be they practiced at home. This event started in the only VHF coverage gap between Malaysia on Vietnam. Though VHF range is kind of irrelevant over 30,000. ACARS is disabled so engines won't notify RR. But something went wrong when it reached 45,000.

If this was a joyride gone bad, they would have found the plane in a thousand pieces in the Gulf of Thailand. I don't buy that they had a joyride and then traveled west for hours. And then crashed into the ocean.

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:06:58]

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:07:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-15 06:05:38 and read 56009 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
1) When the Malaysian PM spoke about one line heading towards the border between Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan that is Asian politician-speak for "it was heading towards Xinjiang in western China, or what the Uighurs call East Turkestan".

He is not going to offend China by saying so, so he names two countries adjacent to the area in question.

But all of us who study Asian politics knew precisely what he meant.

2) The other line he described, south towards Australia, makes no sense for a hijacking on anyone's terms.

Yes, Asian politness does not allow him to point fingers directly at neighbours but it is significant that the PM made the statement, they have reached a conclusion as to where their plane was headed. The southern route option also adds weight to this as it truely makes no sense and allows people to deduce that he other option is the truth.


Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
3) No hijacker in his or her right mind is going to follow the other direction west across the Indian Ocean because it takes them to the American citadel of Diego Garcia, where they are not going to accidentally miss picking up a hijacked aircraft.

Yup, rendition and special ops central is going to have a man who knows how to properly work a radar set on duty 24/7 plus a couple of F-15's I wouldn't be surprised

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
In other words, unless the motive is suicide - which I'm coming to - there is no point hijackers turning back and flying over the Malayan peninsula unless they are headed for the disputed area of Western China.

And so onwards to suicide.

I'm not convinced that suicide was the original objective, I think a hostage situation where the chinese were forced to negotiate for the release of Chinese and others nations citizens on separatists soil was the objective, in which case they did the hijacking too well by not letting the world know what they were up too once they had control allowing the PLAAF to shoot them down, hide the evidence and blame Malaysia for not being able to find the plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 06:08:11 and read 55708 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 75):
Given that to turn off SATCOM and ACARS you have to crawl into the E/E bay, it is plausible that our hypothetical hijackers did not or could not leave the cockpit.

If you had to goto the electronics bay to turn off ACARS (the first thing to supposedly be disabled) why not turn the sat modem (something that wasn't disabled).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 06:08:34 and read 55669 times.

Quoting VC315 (Reply 72):
Still, if the plane was downed in China, or trapped or stormed in China with large casualities, the US/rest of the world could still blame the hijack on terrorists (regardless who did it, and Chinese government would also need that to justify the assult, no?), while agressively criticise China for the response that causes mass casualities.

Again, there's no motive for the US to cover this up for Chinese government.

Yes, there is.

China is one of four other countries at the UN Security Council that possesses a veto. And another, Russia, is engaged in particularly hostile foreign policy at the moment relative to US interests.

As Rupert Murdoch tweeted last Monday, now is a time for the US to align itself with China, not against.

If an aircraft is secretly stormed with catastrophic results the first equation to be weighed up is by the country involved: does disclosure cause more damage to the Uighurs than to China or does it carry a risk for China?

The second equation to be weighed up falls to the USA. Is there more useful capital in scoring cheap points against China or is there a bigger dividend to reap by earning China's gratitude?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-15 06:09:34 and read 55497 times.

Insurance fraud is still tossed around as a theory. I don't buy this.

First, the insurer will withhold payment until the final accident report has been published. Secondly, all insurance takers will probably be checked by the police. And for tax reasons, insurances are usually registered.

I can only see an insurance fraud taking place on the black market, where you need the Sicilian harbor boot method to coerce the insurer into payment... 


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2014-03-15 06:10:01 and read 55457 times.

Who says that this road is made of asphalt? It might be made of concrete or some other tougher material in order to last longer. In any case we'd be talking about an almost empty aircraft as it would have been pretty low on fuel by the time it landed. If it swerved off the road at high speed it would have gone into the sand. If they could just get it away from the road a bit then it wouldn't be seen. It could also have crashed landed away from road somwhere almost the sand dunes directly. As long as the area is flat, the impact would likely have been survivable. For me the Xingjiang connection makes the most sense, as a way to get hold of a large number hostages all at once and get the world's attention, which they certainly have done already. There would be no need to have any of their own operatives on board if they've already got the pilots. Enough money, or ideaology perhaps...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 06:10:35 and read 55172 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 74):
But something went wrong when it reached 45,000.

Why then not to declare emergency and land, but to continue flying somewhere? If it was a joyride, if something starts to go wrong you try to save your life and land safely.
Also cannot see the pilots taking joyride on commercial flight, they are not children in amusement park but rather professionals.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Norlander
Posted 2014-03-15 06:12:24 and read 55054 times.

If you want to take it to a secluded and secure location Diego Garcia is the only one that fits the bill ...

But really it's at the bottom of the Indian Ocean somewhere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 06:14:44 and read 54653 times.

Quoting flyinTLow (Reply 68):
There is no such thing as an emergency squawk button. You have to enter the squawk code 7700 into the transponder. This then in return shows the radar echo as an emergency solely on the air traffic controlers screen as an emergency. You make it sound like a red panic button

I didnt want to describe the process in detail, just mention that this "button pressing" would be the very first a pilot would and MUST do when a highjacking is about to take place. Any pilot who is not involved would do that before letting highjackers take control.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: seahawk
Posted 2014-03-15 06:15:58 and read 54557 times.

Highway could have parts that are prepared as landing strips for the military. But no place with a highway in China is so remote that a 777 would not be noticed.

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:33:34]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 06:16:12 and read 54409 times.

Authorities said several times they beleive the plane ultimately crashed. Question surfes through me over and over again, why are they that sure, and if it's the case, then the plane is in the ocean on south route. In northern less likely because higher risk to be discovered (of course, discarding spectacular idea of KLM shadowing, but that has some weak points anyway)

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:17:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-15 06:16:50 and read 54502 times.

Quoting Norlander (Reply 82):
But really it's at the bottom of the Indian Ocean somewhere.

we don't know that yet.

in another interesting news... mandala (via twitter) is suggesting the plane may have shadowed another to evade detection....

it's been touted before, but when he says it...

SQ68 being seen as a possible flight to shadow.... after 5 hours it would have been over Pakistan. source- Reddit

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:24:01]

can anyone confirm this?


[Edited 2014-03-15 06:26:02]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: 9VSIO
Posted 2014-03-15 06:20:20 and read 53660 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 25):
is it essential pilots have the option of turning both the transponder and ACARS systems off? Why can't the aircraft be built in a way both systems are systematically turned on with no access to either system in the cockpit? Why would pilots need any access to altering both systems? Why would they both need to be turned off in any circumstance? Obviously they are systems, systems both paramount during flight.

This has been discussed to death. Those systems are not paramount to flight safety, and therefore can be turned off. Please look at the crash of Swissair 111 as to why electrical systems have an "off" switch on aircraft

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 34):
No matter how intense the situation on the back of the plane, a pilot cannot risk 1 passenger death or several passenger getting hurt by a hijacker vs losing the whole plane.

"Open the door or I blow up the plane" - would you call the bluff?

Quoting art (Reply 35):
Either Malaysia's primary air defence radar is almost useless or operated in a manner that is almost useless for MH370 not to have been seen on its primary radar

Or their air force was asleep

Quoting AR385 (Reply 39):
1) Why Malaysia? What is it about Malaysia that this hijack (as per the PM) was planned and executed on a flight from KUL to PEK? Who does Malaysia persecutes? Of those, which groups are able to put a stunt like this?

Well, it has distracted the world from Ukraine and Syria....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-15 06:22:11 and read 53386 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 78):
China is one of four other countries at the UN Security Council that possesses a veto. And another, Russia, is engaged in particularly hostile foreign policy at the moment relative to US interests.

The permanent 5 all believe themselves to be the potential targets of this kind of terrorism and would each clear themselves to use "extreme measures" to prevent it, hence it makes no sense for any of them to kick up a stink as they each may have to shoot down an aircraft carrying multiple hundreds of people one day. The public unveling of this fact would most likely have large economic consequences for airlines and beyond.

This is the harsh reality of where we find ourselves.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 06:22:34 and read 53337 times.

Quoting Norlander (Reply 82):
But really it's at the bottom of the Indian Ocean somewhere.

I agree, to me all the theories plane getting hijacked to land it somewhere & steal its cargo sound extremely unlikely. A mad crew member committing mass murder sounds a lot more plausible explanation to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-15 06:22:57 and read 53418 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 75):
Given that to turn off SATCOM and ACARS you have to crawl into the E/E bay, it is plausible that our hypothetical hijackers did not or could not leave the cockpit.

But there is a problem with this theory, if someone literally "cut power" to SATCOM in E/E bay how did it send "keep-alive" pings, which investigators used to conclude it flew for 4hrs-7hrs. Both theories are contradictory.

Another theory, Is it possible for entire 777 to float for 4hrs-7hrs with power to SATCOM? Lets assume every one is knocked out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: VC315
Posted 2014-03-15 06:24:00 and read 53494 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 78):
China is one of four other countries at the UN Security Council that possesses a veto. And another, Russia, is engaged in particularly hostile foreign policy at the moment relative to US interests.

As Rupert Murdoch tweeted last Monday, now is a time for the US to align itself with China, not against.

With or without the US, China is in already in a conundrum on Crimea. Ukraine supposedly has supplied China with military technologies when Russia was unwilling to do so - that includes the aircraft carrier.

And quoting Murdoch?! He's the one saying in the first day that this MH370 incident is a terrorists attack, quite bluntly and out of no where, to be frank. And I do amdit, as someone who's on the left, i don't believe or give credit to a word out of his mouth.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-15 06:24:54 and read 53054 times.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 87):
Quoting art (Reply 35):
Either Malaysia's primary air defence radar is almost useless or operated in a manner that is almost useless for MH370 not to have been seen on its primary radar

Or their air force was asleep

They did see it, they didn't know what it was and didn't think it was hostile at the time. Besides they may have bankers hours like the Swiss AF as the Ethiopian hijacking recently showed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2014-03-15 06:28:16 and read 52490 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 81):
they are not children in amusement park but rather professionals.

I think most people get that, but the fact is that this is a highly weird situation. There a lot of pilots out there, occasionally one is going to flip, but whether or not that's relevant here and if so, to what extent, is unclear. What is certainly true is that you can't just completely discount any crew involvement simply because it's rare and pilots are generally respected professionals. This whole situation is very rare.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-15 06:32:16 and read 52271 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 44):
If I am reading correctly, they think the plane either headed north or south. Has it been explained why they don't know for sure?

Watch this: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26591531

I originally didn't get it either, but my confusion just stemmed from the use of the word "corridor", which the Malaysian PM used in a different way than I would normally use it. They're using "corridor" to mean the circumference of a circle. They apparently can tell how far the plane was from the satellite when it pinged it, but they're not sure (yet) where on that circumference it would be. The two corridors are two slices of that circle.

As the BBC guy says, that actually really narrows it down. If you assume they were flying *to* someplace and not just randomly, you first can just search all the airfields or even empty patches of land along that circumference. If you don't find anything there, then you can expand outward to see if it crashed somewhere. But you can concentrate on searching along that curved line. They know how often the plane sends the ping so they would know how much margin for error there'd be on either side of the line, and how much extra distance they'd need to search given the maximum distance the plane could have traveled between pings.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-15 06:32:38 and read 52017 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 46):
My shot is that either one of the pilots or possibly some other crew member had developed some kind of serious mental illness over the time and did this without any clear, logical motive. Possibly he could still feel some shame about his action, so he decided to hide the evidence by flying the aircraft into Indian Ocean, somewhere far away.

Possibly the hijacker got influenced by LAM 470, which could be at least one of the reasons for choosing MH 370 due to similar flight number.

Of course also some life insurance money could be involved together with mental illness..

People with serious mental problems committing totally pointless acts of violence isn't anything totally unheard of, not at all.

That is my personal feeling as well. It is the most logical and "easiest" way. Almost any other theory gives many "So why didn't they?" I wonder though in this case... isn't there any remote way for people in the main cabin to communicate with the "outer" world? That would likely mean a revamp on how a plane is "governed". Scary...

Also at this point the authorities (especially considering that most of the passengers were Chinese, and I am sure China has easy ways to get information on their nationals) have certainly screened and get information on all the passengers. If they had any evidence or doubt (like the two fake passport holders) they would have pointed in that direction.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2014-03-15 06:34:09 and read 51538 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 77):
If you had to goto the electronics bay to turn off ACARS (the first thing to supposedly be disabled) why not turn the sat modem (something that wasn't disabled).

I'm not familiar with these systems, but I thought it was established in one of the early threads that the ACARS functionality (sending reports, etc) could be turned off from flight deck, but that unless the CB in EE bay was pulled the pings would still occur. I may have misinterpreted or misremembered that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: katekebo
Posted 2014-03-15 06:38:50 and read 51115 times.

A question to one of the professional commercial pilots on this forums. I know that Malaysian authorities have already communicated that they think communication was deliberately disconnected. But could the following scenarios / sequence of events be possible?

The accident is caused by a sequence of progressively worse electric / electronic failures in the following sequence:

1) The first system to fail in ACARS. Because this system is not essential for flying the failure is unnoticed or ignored by the pilots.

2) The next system to go down is the VHF radio, just after the final communication with Malaysian ATC. Around the same time the failure spreads to the transponder.

3) Now the pilots realize that they can no longer communicate and that they are no longer easily identifiable on radar. They spend some time troubleshooting, during which things get progressively worse.

4) They decide to turn back, hoping that somebody will notice them on the radar and send another airplane to act as liaison with ATC.

5) Soon after, their navigation systems fail as well due to the progressively worsening electric failure (fire?). Maybe one of the pilots (or both) get injured or incapacitated by the fire / smoke. But they eventually manage to contain the fire so that it does not spread.

6) Now they can still fly the airplane, but can't communicate nor navigate.

7) Somebody sits at the controls and manages to keep the airplane in the air. He can't communicate nor navigate and doesn't know where he's going. That could explain erratic route.

8) Eventually the airplane runs out of fuel and crashes into ocean.

This could be a one in billion sequence but airplane crashes are usually consequence of very unlikely events.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 06:40:46 and read 50835 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 93):
can't just completely discount any crew involvement

And I agree with that, but if things went wrong on FL450 then there should be remains of the aircraft, and if they went so wrong that pilots couldn't land it. And I would expect them trying to land the plane having 237 souls on board, rather than seek another country to live because of bad joyride. Also how things could continue being wrong for 7:30 hours further after just a joyride? It's more alive theory that things continued pretty right for whoever controlled the plane, taking into account no communication and distress calls, strange flying patterns, avoidance of radar zones and maybe deliberate loss of primary radar contact due to other plane shadow...

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:46:50]

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:48:31]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-15 06:41:08 and read 50915 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 81):
Why then not to declare emergency and land, but to continue flying somewhere? If it was a joyride, if something starts to go wrong you try to save your life and land safely.
Also cannot see the pilots taking joyride on commercial flight, they are not children in amusement park but rather professionals.

Professionals sometimes do joy rides: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701

In this accident, the pilots didn't communicate the full extent of their problems to ATC. They were aware that their communication can be used as evidence against them, and so it's supposed that they tried to hold back the full picture.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-15 06:41:09 and read 50735 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 81):
Why then not to declare emergency and land, but to continue flying somewhere? If it was a joyride, if something starts to go wrong you try to save your life and land safely.

Keep in mind there is no VHF coverage. May be over confidence, may have practiced various recovery scenarios on simulator, but real life always presents its own challenges.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 81):
Also cannot see the pilots taking joyride on commercial flight, they are not children in amusement park but rather professionals.

Behavior may not be childish, but an over confident geek could pull it off. It is certified to ~41,000, so pushing only little high. Or may be showing off to some girl in the flight deck, history suggests at least one is a show off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-15 06:44:50 and read 50209 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 97):
A question to one of the professional commercial pilots on this forums. I know that Malaysian authorities have already communicated that they think communication was deliberately disconnected. But could the following scenarios / sequence of events be possible?

The accident is caused by a sequence of progressively worse electric / electronic failures in the following sequence:

1) The first system to fail in ACARS. Because this system is not essential for flying the failure is unnoticed or ignored by the pilots.

2) The next system to go down is the VHF radio, just after the final communication with Malaysian ATC. Around the same time the failure spreads to the transponder.

3) Now the pilots realize that they can no longer communicate and that they are no longer easily identifiable on radar. They spend some time troubleshooting, during which things get progressively worse.

4) They decide to turn back, hoping that somebody will notice them on the radar and send another airplane to act as liaison with ATC.

5) Soon after, their navigation systems fail as well due to the progressively worsening electric failure (fire?). Maybe one of the pilots (or both) get injured or incapacitated by the fire / smoke. But they eventually manage to contain the fire so that it does not spread.

6) Now they can still fly the airplane, but can't communicate nor navigate.

7) Somebody sits at the controls and manages to keep the airplane in the air. He can't communicate nor navigate and doesn't know where he's going. That could explain erratic route.

8) Eventually the airplane runs out of fuel and crashes into ocean.

This could be a one in billion sequence but airplane crashes are usually consequence of very unlikely events.

This is not impossible and in the absence of any ransom, demands, evidence of suicidality I dont think a (simple) series of system failures should be ruled out

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: seahawk
Posted 2014-03-15 06:47:04 and read 50003 times.

One crew member alone could not do it. He would have to remove the other pilot and disable any means of communication in the cabin. But we know that the plane flew over Malaysia on its way, so he must have their made sure that all other people on board are dead (de-pressurize the plane for a long enough time but short enough to have enough oxygen himself) and then fly on until fuel run out or something. That is a lot of planing to murder so many other people before committing suicide.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 06:48:35 and read 50146 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 90):
Another theory, Is it possible for entire 777 to float for 4hrs-7hrs with power to SATCOM? Lets assume every one is knocked out.

No way a 777 can be ditched in the sea at night without breaking up. Due to its engine size the 777 is the worst plane imaginable to perform a sussessful ditching anyway.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 97):

I also think that something like this is the most likely sequence of events. If one of the pilots, especially the captain was on the toilet while the initial trouble occured, its imho even more the most likely scenario not involving deliberate criminal action.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ultrablue
Posted 2014-03-15 06:49:35 and read 50317 times.

Given the possible southern 'corridor' intersects with Australia's over-the-horizon radar ranges, I wonder if Australia can help to eliminate part of the possible search area by consulting radar records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindalee_Operational_Radar_Network

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 06:49:56 and read 50304 times.

On the basis of what we have learned today:

1) The aircraft did not suffer any technical fault.
2) It was deliberately hijacked.
3) It was flown towards Central Asia, in other words towards Xinjiang, the Western Chinese province with an active separatist terrorist movement.

The only real counter-claim now is that it was flying down towards Perth in Western Australia, and noone seriously believes that.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 76):
I think a hostage situation where the chinese were forced to negotiate for the release of Chinese and others nations citizens on separatists soil was the objective, in which case they did the hijacking too well by not letting the world know what they were up too once they had control allowing the PLAAF to shoot them down, hide the evidence and blame Malaysia for not being able to find the plane.

I disagree only in that I think that the Chinese would prefer to storm it on the ground rather than shoot it down in the air.

They could not shoot it down over the Indian Ocean for fear of the Indians detecting this on the Andaman Islands.

The question then becomes simply would they shoot it down over southwest China or let it land and then storm it?

I think they would go for the latter option. Shooting it down is messy and risks being observed, and would require an enormous cover-up. Storming it might be a success and provide a PR option.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-15 06:50:52 and read 49925 times.

Transcript of the Malaysian PM statement (I'm assuming this is fair usage, since it's not an article as such, and all over t'interweb). Stuff I think was new information in the speech is in bold.

Quote:

Seven days ago Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 disappeared. We realise this is an excruciating time for the families of those on board. No words can describe the pain they must be going through. Our thoughts and our prayers are with them.

I have been appraised of the on-going search operation round the clock. At the beginning of the operation, I ordered the search area to be broadened; I instructed the Malaysian authorities to share all relevant information freely and transparently with the wider investigation team; and I requested that our friends and allies join the operation. As of today, 14 countries, 43 ships and 58 aircraft are involved in the search. I wish to thank all the governments for their help at such a crucial time.

Since day one, the Malaysian authorities have worked hand-in-hand with our international partners – including neighbouring countries, the aviation authorities and a multinational search force – many of whom have been here on the ground since Sunday.

We have shared information in real time with authorities who have the necessary experience to interpret the data. We have been working nonstop to assist the investigation. And we have put our national security second to the search for the missing plane.

It is widely understood that this has been a situation without precedent.

We have conducted search operations over land, in the South China Sea, the Straits of Malacca, the Andaman Sea and the Indian Ocean. At every stage, we acted on the basis of verified information, and we followed every credible lead. Sometimes these leads have led nowhere.

There has been intense speculation. We understand the desperate need for information on behalf of the families and those watching around the world. But we have a responsibility to the investigation and the families to only release information that has been corroborated. And our primary motivation has always been to find the plane.

In the first phase of the search operation, we searched near MH370’s last known position, in the South China Sea. At the same time, it was brought to our attention by the Royal Malaysian Air Force that, based on their primary radar, an aircraft – the identity of which could not be confirmed – made a turn back. The primary radar data showed the aircraft proceeding on a flight path which took it to an area north of the Straits of Malacca.

Given this credible data, which was subsequently corroborated with the relevant international authorities, we expanded the area of search to include the Straits of Malacca and, later, to the Andaman Sea.

Early this morning I was briefed by the investigation team – which includes the FAA [US Federal Aviation Administration], NTSB [US National Transportation Safety Board], the AAIB (Uk Air Accidents Investigation Branch), the Malaysian authorities and the acting minister of transport – on new information that sheds further light on what happened to MH370.

Based on new satellite information, we can say with a high degree of certainty that the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was disabled just before the aircraft reached the East coast of peninsular Malaysia. Shortly afterwards, near the border between Malaysian and Vietnamese air traffic control, the aircraft’s transponder was switched off.

From this point onwards, the Royal Malaysian Air Force primary radar showed that an aircraft which was believed – but not confirmed – to be MH370 did indeed turn back. It then flew in a westerly direction back over peninsular Malaysia before turning northwest. Up until the point at which it left military primary radar coverage, these movements are consistent with deliberate action by someone on the plane.

Today, based on raw satellite data that was obtained from the satellite data service provider, we can confirm that the aircraft shown in the primary radar data was flight MH370. After much forensic work and deliberation, the FAA, NTSB, AAIB and the Malaysian authorities, working separately on the same data, concur.

According to the new data, the last confirmed communication between the plane and the satellite was at 8:11AM Malaysian time on Saturday 8th March. The investigations team is making further calculations which will indicate how far the aircraft may have flown after this last point of contact. This will help us to refine the search.

Due to the type of satellite data, we are unable to confirm the precise location of the plane when it last made contact with the satellite.

However, based on this new data, the aviation authorities of Malaysia and their international counterparts have determined that the plane’s last communication with the satellite was in one of two possible corridors: a northern corridor stretching approximately from the border of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan to northern Thailand, or a southern corridor stretching approximately from Indonesia to the southern Indian ocean. The investigation team is working to further refine the information.

In view of this latest development the Malaysian authorities have refocused their investigation into the crew and passengers on board. Despite media reports that the plane was hijacked, I wish to be very clear: we are still investigating all possibilities as to what caused MH370 to deviate from its original flight path.

This new satellite information has a significant impact on the nature and scope of the search operation. We are ending our operations in the South China Sea and reassessing the redeployment of our assets. We are working with the relevant countries to request all information relevant to the search, including radar data.

As the two new corridors involve many countries, the relevant foreign embassies have been invited to a briefing on the new information today by the Malaysian Foreign Ministry and the technical experts. I have also instructed the Foreign Ministry to provide a full briefing to foreign governments which had passengers on the plane. This morning, Malaysia Airlines has been informing the families of the passengers and crew of these new developments.

Clearly, the search for MH370 has entered a new phase. Over the last seven days, we have followed every lead and looked into every possibility. For the families and friends of those involved, we hope this new information brings us one step closer to finding the plane.


[Edited 2014-03-15 07:03:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: seahawk
Posted 2014-03-15 06:51:29 and read 49881 times.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 97):
A question to one of the professional commercial pilots on this forums. I know that Malaysian authorities have already communicated that they think communication was deliberately disconnected. But could the following scenarios / sequence of events be possible?
.
.

I think it is not likely today, as passengers and crew will have GPS equipped mobile phones which will give them position data. Good enough to get back over populated land and there cell phones should be able to lock into the network and allow communication.

Best theory I can come up with:

Somebody tried a 9/11 style attack on China. China shot the plane down and is now trying to hide the evidence.

1. of the planed attack
2. of the shot down

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:53:54]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 06:53:10 and read 49663 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 94):
I originally didn't get it either, but my confusion just stemmed from the use of the word "corridor", which the Malaysian PM used in a different way than I would normally use it. They're using "corridor" to mean the circumference of a circle. They apparently can tell how far the plane was from the satellite when it pinged it, but they're not sure (yet) where on that circumference it would be. The two corridors are two slices of that circle.

Based on the coverage maps for inmarsat's I-3 network the last ping is probably the only real useful one as it is around the area where two sat's coverage overlaps IOR/POR sat's overlap. That would create a "corridor" where they can reasonably expect the modem to be/not to be. Technically because inmarsat isn't a GPS system it could be anywhere along the corridor the points they mention are just the furthest possible points ( I think ). Although that would put it right back in the original search area potentially as the corridor is probably everything between the two extremes as the possible positions. Primary radar data is going to be far more useful than the sat estimates as I highly doubt the accuracy of the modem is sufficient to find the plane.

(same links as the top)
https://twitter.com/sunshinesulin/status/444763082254868482/photo/1
http://www.voxmaris.com.ar/en/fleet77 (Scroll down for the map)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-15 06:55:07 and read 49183 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 105):
3) It was flown towards Central Asia, in other words towards Xinjiang, the Western Chinese province with an active separatist terrorist movement.

The only real counter-claim now is that it was flying down towards Perth in Western Australia, and noone seriously believes that.

That is your personal assumption, not what the Malaysian government has stated.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 06:55:59 and read 49313 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 102):
One crew member alone could not do it. He would have to remove the other pilot

Where is the problem? Pilots regularly "remove themselves" from the cockpit by going to the toilet. What if the other one uses that occasion to shoot the colleague there? Cockpit door is locked.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 102):
But we know that the plane flew over Malaysia on its way

As much as I know that is not proven for 100% yet.

Quoting koruman (Reply 105):
1) The aircraft did not suffer any technical fault.

False to assume that this is a fact. It just became less likely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 06:56:30 and read 49104 times.

If there can be any positive in all of this crazy nightmare, that's confirmation that 777 is still awesome and safe machine. Obviously, we people learned to create technics which is more reliable and predictable than some of us. Hope lessons are learnt for serious safety improvements related to plane communication and crew safety...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 06:57:06 and read 49002 times.

Quoting ultrablue (Reply 104):
Given the possible southern 'corridor' intersects with Australia's over-the-horizon radar ranges, I wonder if Australia can help to eliminate part of the possible search area by consulting radar records.

It does seem to intersect but only barely if the wikipedia map is accurate of course. That also assumes the maximum southern position from the sat estimate is the actual position which isn't really a 100% kind of thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 06:58:07 and read 48904 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 77):
If you had to goto the electronics bay to turn off ACARS (the first thing to supposedly be disabled) why not turn the sat modem (something that wasn't disabled).

The "keep-alive" pings are a low level networking concept that I don't think many professional pilots would be aware of, since it's completely irrelevant to flight. For the pilot, simply disabling the sending of ACARS would be enough. I distinctly remember a 777 pilot saying that you can select which downlinks ACARS will use from the computer in the cockpit. I assume that means you can select not to use any of them, and messages will simply queue up if generated. If that is correct, there is no reason to go down to the E/E bay.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-15 06:58:37 and read 48706 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 105):
On the basis of what we have learned today:

[...]

3) It was flown towards Central Asia, in other words towards Xinjiang, the Western Chinese province with an active separatist terrorist movement.

We haven't learned that at all. That's your opinion, please don't misrepresent it as some kind of factual finding.

Quoting koruman (Reply 105):
The only real counter-claim now is that it was flying down towards Perth in Western Australia, and noone seriously believes that.

As opposed to your theory of a botched Chinese hostage rescue and a massive international coverup which includes the US - which you find totally believable? I would take the Perth scenario over that anyday.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-15 07:01:42 and read 48519 times.

China has been VERY quiet considering the earlier uproar and frustration with Malaysian authorities

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 07:03:03 and read 48183 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 111):
If there can be any positive in all of this crazy nightmare, that's confirmation that 777 is still awesome and safe machine.

Actually I think a highjack scenario, no matter if political or suicidal due to private reasons, and the fact the world is clueless is much more frightening than the prospect a single 777 suffered at structural failure. I see nothing positive in your statement other than for Boeing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: philask
Posted 2014-03-15 07:03:27 and read 48229 times.

So, Al-Qaeda took it and landed it in Pakistan... next move?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-15 07:03:43 and read 48481 times.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 114):
China has been VERY quiet considering the earlier uproar and frustration with Malaysian authorities

Reuters, four hours ago:

"China demands Malaysia give more accurate information on plane"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...rlines-china-idUSBREA2E06120140315

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Miami
Posted 2014-03-15 07:06:49 and read 47637 times.

Vietnam has decided to end their search for missing Malaysian Airlines flight 370 according to a Vietnamese official

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-15 07:07:58 and read 47532 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 114):
As opposed to your theory of a botched Chinese hostage rescue and a massive international coverup which includes the US - which you find totally believable? I would take the Perth scenario over that anyday.

Creating some international cover-up perfectly is a tall order for such a situation and the consequences of even the most minor slip up would be huge and unpredictable.

Vs. the plane going one way or the other for some as of now unknown reason, possibly deliberate or not, is far more likely.

(The, it crashed somewhere for some reason theory in somewhere in that corridor is a far more probable and simple) It would be really strange if it turned out that the primary radar track was wrong and the plane just took some crazy erratic route around the Gulf of Thailand for hours before crashing far south of where they were searching (Assuming only the last satcom data point has a reasonable corridor position, and there is no primary radar coverage (unlikely given how close everything is)).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-15 07:09:03 and read 47722 times.

SOME IMPORTANT REMINDERS FOR ALL OUR MEMBERS TO CONSIDER BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD:


**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to past / current movies or possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

**** PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT QUESTIONS AND SCENARIOS THAT HAS BEEN COVERED AND DISCUSSED IN PREVIOUS THREADS AND WHICH DO NOT CONTRIBUTE OR APPLY, IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER, TOWARDS THIS CONVERSATION ANY LONGER. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

**** PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL TOWARDS OTHER USERS AND KEEP THE FORUM RULES AND REGULATIONS IN MIND WHEN POSTING IN THE FORUMS. SHOULD THERE BE ANY RULE VIOLATIONS, PLEASE BRING THIS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE MODERATORS BY MAKING USE OF THE “SUGGEST DELETION FUNCTION”. ****

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Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 07:09:23 and read 47420 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 103):
It was flown towards Central Asia, in other words towards Xinjiang, the Western Chinese province with an active separatist terrorist movement.

The only real counter-claim now is that it was flying down towards Perth in Western Australia, and noone seriously believes that.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 107):
That is your personal assumption, not what the Malaysian government has stated.

Here is what their Prime Minister said:

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 104):
However, based on this new data, the aviation authorities of Malaysia and their international counterparts have determined that the plane’s last communication with the satellite was in one of two possible corridors: a northern corridor stretching approximately from the border of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan to northern Thailand, or a southern corridor stretching approximately from Indonesia to the southern Indian ocean.

I don't see any great disparity between my interpretation and what the PM said.

It's unlikely that the pilot was off to visit Uncle Borat in Kazakhstan, or that the passengers hijacked the aircraft to visit Rottnest Island or Mauritius.

Obviously I'm being flippant, but the serious point today is that the Malaysian PM has been absolutely crystal clear that systems on the aircraft were deliberately disabled.

The fact that the PM did the press conference and that he said what he said, and that the aircraft continued to fly for at least 6 hours longer than we thought pretty much points to the current theory being hijacking, whether or not one or more pilots were involved.

And then you look at the two corridors to which the PM has now restricted the investigation.

One runs along the borders of Xinjiang, where there is a separatist terrorist movement. The other goes over and to empty ocean, and makes sense only in the context of pilot suicide. But why fly so many hours to achieve that end?

[Edited 2014-03-15 07:16:35]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-15 07:10:41 and read 47331 times.

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 41):
If so, what's the possibility of this being a heist, and the plane was taken and landed somewhere? Have they checked all the airfields in the 2000 mile range they are looking at?

Gold from Ukraine. Maybe the pilots decided to secure their retirement once and for all!   Now the plane is sitting on tarmac of some rarely or unused airfield in a remote island. The pilots took off with a speed boat and the passengers were left stranded.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 07:12:20 and read 46825 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 103):
The only real counter-claim now is that it was flying down towards Perth in Western Australia, and noone seriously believes that.

Why not? Like I've said many times it's perfectly plausible theory a suicidal crew member hijacked the plane, flew it far into Indian Ocean and crashed it there. Way more believable than a Chinese cover up IMO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-15 07:13:14 and read 47432 times.

I have translated some of the Malay of the Captains facebook page. What do you think?
https://www.facebook.com/zaharie.shah.3


right terror anwar ne. !

Politics of fear.. This is what it’s boiled down to… Questioning the qualification of the individuals who dare to standup. (Anuar or Hadi .) These are our only hope to restore democracy. 50 years in power by a single party (coalition) does not say much about democracy in the country. If these leaders willing to stand in the line of fire the least we could do is support them. They might not be perceived to be the best candidate but sacrifice is necessary to achieve the goal of free democracy. When you renovate a house you have to suffer all the consequences. From dust, to the contractor that run off with the money, Aliens workers keeping an eyes on your family. WHY DO YOU RISK THAT? Because at the end after all the loss of extra ringgit for overprice items the contractor billed you and you elude the alien predators from robbing your house and harming your family you know it will be worthwhile.

Asalamualaikum
Today is my last post on FB. The vote is with bijaksana.Kesejahteraan
the future of our children depends on the decision
you do tomorrow.
I count as a watchdog that will Ballot Box P107
opened the next day at the Office of Government Chinatown.
I gather 10 fingers apologize if there terkasar language.
I am a common man can not escape from errors.

In place of the votes in a government office petaling. Kul 5 new start counting. Sorry no pictures allowed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-15 07:15:35 and read 46717 times.

I am going towards a sabotage theory, the plane just came out of fresh maintenance schedule, and I think some sort of devices put in to control autopilot from ground which made think pilots were fighting its behaviour by climbing and descending and it could that remotly also disabled comms and presuurization. so means that plane were controled from outside forces than from inside cockpit

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: argonaught
Posted 2014-03-15 07:17:28 and read 46367 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 70):

I thought I had already posted this somewhere, but apparently I never did: If they landed in a theoretical "safe" location, it would take some time and logistic to clandestinely move the hostages - most likely in smaller separate groups to hedge the hijackers' bets.

Quoting VC315 (Reply 91):
And quoting Murdoch?! He's the one saying in the first day that this MH370 incident is a terrorists attack

Doesn't look like a typical terrorist attack; someone would have claimed responsibility long ago. If this is indeed a hijacking, the hostages may be held and used for gaining leverage, exacting revenge, or extorting ransom.

Quoting VC315 (Reply 91):
With or without the US, China is in already in a conundrum on Crimea. Ukraine supposedly has supplied China with military technologies when Russia was unwilling to do so - that includes the aircraft carrier.

I doubt Ukraine it's a go-to place for the Chinese to shop for military technologies (unless they are after some manager's specials in the Cold War era hardware department). The above mentioned Ukrainian "aircraft carrier" the Chinese bought for the car equivalent of 50 bucks .. it had only been partially built and subsequently abandoned in Ukraine when the Soviet Union went down. The Chinese have bought a few more non-operational carriers in the past 30 years, including an Australian one, I believe.

I think the real conundrum for the Chinese is how to relate to the Crimean referendum, which would set a precedent that can bring about threats AND opportunities for a multi-ethnic nation like China. But, this is completely off-topic.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 07:20:24 and read 45777 times.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 123):
I have translated some of the Malay of the Captains facebook page. What do you think?https://www.facebook.com/zaharie.shah.3

This is what I am trying to bring to attention in reply 48 above. Certain event happened in Malaysia which may have had an impact on the Captain. Remember, the IGP said they were looking into psychological aspect of the everyone on the plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-15 07:27:07 and read 45286 times.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 123):

I have translated some of the Malay of the Captains facebook page. What do you think?
https://www.facebook.com/zaharie.shah.3


right terror anwar ne. !

Politics of fear.. This is what it’s boiled down to… Questioning the qualification of the individuals who dare to standup. (Anuar or Hadi .) These are our only hope to restore democracy. 50 years in power by a single party (coalition) does not say much about democracy in the country. If these leaders willing to stand in the line of fire the least we could do is support them. They might not be perceived to be the best candidate but sacrifice is necessary to achieve the goal of free democracy. When you renovate a house you have to suffer all the consequences. From dust, to the contractor that run off with the money, Aliens workers keeping an eyes on your family. WHY DO YOU RISK THAT? Because at the end after all the loss of extra ringgit for overprice items the contractor billed you and you elude the alien predators from robbing your house and harming your family you know it will be worthwhile.

Asalamualaikum
Today is my last post on FB. The vote is with bijaksana.Kesejahteraan
the future of our children depends on the decision
you do tomorrow.
I count as a watchdog that will Ballot Box P107
opened the next day at the Office of Government Chinatown.
I gather 10 fingers apologize if there terkasar language.
I am a common man can not escape from errors.

In place of the votes in a government office petaling. Kul 5 new start counting. Sorry no pictures allowed.
Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
In addition, we don't know the domestic political affiliations of the flight crew, and whether or not they were outraged by the conviction the previous day of the main Malaysian opposition politician for "sodomy".

But if the flight crew were the hijackers, political motivation is far more likely - according to history - than life insurance fraud.

And this has been the main alternative to the Uighur terrorism motive in my posts all along.

This event took place the day after the main leader of political opposition in Malaysia was convicted on sodomy charges that boggle the mind in western countries.

As I wrote two threads ago, there are motives (not justification, just motives) for terrorism at both ends of this flight. In China it is the Uighur terrorists. In Malaysia it is the conviction and 5 year sentence passed against Anwar Ibrahim the previous day.

The only weakness to this hypothesis is that it isn't much of a protest if noone knows that it has happened!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 07:30:47 and read 44655 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 127):

The pilot is also a life member of the political party headed by Anwar.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ultrablue
Posted 2014-03-15 07:31:15 and read 44916 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 113):

It does seem to intersect but only barely if the wikipedia map is accurate of course. That also assumes the maximum southern position from the sat estimate is the actual position which isn't really a 100% kind of thing.


I think it pretty much covers it quite nicely. See below.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-15 07:33:23 and read 44392 times.

What I am now finding mostinteresting about the news from the PM is the high amount of apparent cooperation that makes it look like things were happening behind the scenes while people were saying that no information was being provided

Quote:
...The data, analyzed and corroborated by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, U.K. Air Accidents Investigation Board, and the Malaysian authorities....

Above from
Prime Minister: ‘Deliberate Action’ Caused Disappearance of Malaysia Flight 370 -
Search for Plane Becomes Criminal Inquiry


.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: md11sdf
Posted 2014-03-15 07:36:10 and read 35491 times.

At his point, isn't it time to open a new thread, under a NEW TITLE and close/delete all of those numerous threads that looked at this incident as a "crash investigation". How about: "MH370 Hijacked by terrorists"

This aircraft is no longer "Missing-En-Route". It was hijacked by air pirates and taken somewhere to be used for something we can only imagine. This was way too sophisticated to even be considered an "accident". There is no smoking wreckage.

This stopped being a Search and Rescue mission some time ago.
I posted about this scenario in a thread "MH370: Speculation of what happened".
This morning, I see that the entire thread has disappeared, just like the Aircraft.....

People, it's time to throw away the "political correctness" and acknowledge that this is a TERRORIST ATTACK in the making.
I'm just wondering how long THIS post will survive before IT'S deleted by some touchy-feely moderator (no dis-respect intended).
And believe me, I understand the implications of what I'm saying in regard to the passengers and their families. It's horrific.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Planeflyer
Posted 2014-03-15 07:40:55 and read 42861 times.

Sorry new to the site and have not figured out how to look up my 1st post which went like this:

Who benefits form a hijacking?

A government? I can’t see it.

A group?

Who needs hostages?

Who can hide hostages?

Al Qaeda meets both requirements.

They have many high level leaders in prison and have a track record for pulling off just this sort of operation. I also proposed Malaysia as the perfect target.

So why have they not announced it?

It went wrong and they want to try it again or it went right but they have not secured the hostages.

I ended my post saying that this was fanciful but then so was 9/11. Despite what many would like to believe these guys don’t give up and thrive when faced with the weakness.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-15 07:41:41 and read 42904 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 88):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 75):
Given that to turn off SATCOM and ACARS you have to crawl into the E/E bay, it is plausible that our hypothetical hijackers did not or could not leave the cockpit.

But there is a problem with this theory, if someone literally "cut power" to SATCOM in E/E bay how did it send "keep-alive" pings, which investigators used to conclude it flew for 4hrs-7hrs. Both theories are contradictor

Sorry should have been more clear. I didn't say that this had been done, just that it was plausible a hypothetical hijacker would cut every thing but ACARS through SATCOM because this would have required leaving the cockpit.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 95):
A question to one of the professional commercial pilots on this forums. I know that Malaysian authorities have already communicated that they think communication was deliberately disconnected. But could the following scenarios / sequence of events be possible?

The accident is caused by a sequence of progressively worse electric / electronic failures in the following sequence:

1) The first system to fail in ACARS. Because this system is not essential for flying the failure is unnoticed or ignored by the pilots.

2) The next system to go down is the VHF radio, just after the final communication with Malaysian ATC. Around the same time the failure spreads to the transponder.

3) Now the pilots realize that they can no longer communicate and that they are no longer easily identifiable on radar. They spend some time troubleshooting, during which things get progressively worse.

4) They decide to turn back, hoping that somebody will notice them on the radar and send another airplane to act as liaison with ATC.

5) Soon after, their navigation systems fail as well due to the progressively worsening electric failure (fire?). Maybe one of the pilots (or both) get injured or incapacitated by the fire / smoke. But they eventually manage to contain the fire so that it does not spread.

6) Now they can still fly the airplane, but can't communicate nor navigate.

7) Somebody sits at the controls and manages to keep the airplane in the air. He can't communicate nor navigate and doesn't know where he's going. That could explain erratic route.

8) Eventually the airplane runs out of fuel and crashes into ocean.

This could be a one in billion sequence but airplane crashes are usually consequence of very unlikely events.

1) There is no evidence ACARS failed. In fact it doesn't seem to have failed at all, but kept working.
3) VHF down would not have killed the transponder.

Yes, electrical fire is possible, but this theory fails on one point. Where is the wreckage? I don't buy that it flew hundreds of miles after having a problem of this magnitude.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 105):

I think it is not likely today, as passengers and crew will have GPS equipped mobile phones which will give them position data. Good enough to get back over populated land and there cell phones should be able to lock into the network and allow communication.

Cell phone coverage at cruise altitude is a dodgy proposition. Besides, most pax would have been asleep if they thought everything was normal. If the pax don't know what is happening, unlikely they would try to call. Besides, by now those network logs would most likely be analyzed and the authorities would know if a phone had locked onto a cell tower.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-15 07:44:35 and read 42409 times.

Quoting ultrablue (Reply 129):
I think it pretty much covers it quite nicely. See below.

Nice map, I guess the Australians can help debunk the southern route theory, as long as the radar works as advertised. I was most surprised to read that Australian taxpayers (including myself) have stumped up $1.8bn for this over the horizon radar system so it bloody well better work properly.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: dougbr2006
Posted 2014-03-15 07:47:12 and read 41891 times.

What I cant get hold of from some of the statements of the Malay president is that they say the AHARS was turned off before the final known position. How have they determined this, because it didn't send any data thereafter. We need to know how often the aircraft would send that data. Airlines have contracts with the service provider that collect the data and forwards it to either RR or Malaysian Airlines. Could it be that the last AHARS data was sent and then the next transmission could have been scheduled after the loss of contact? There is no mention of how frequently the aircraft was supposed to send that data.

If the AHARS was off and not sending information, which system was supposedly sending data to the satellite?

Is this system reliable as the fact that they are looking at areas so far apart would seem to question its accuracy.

Is it possible that the satellite stores data until a reply from the pinged client is received, could this data be trying to be resent again and again by the satellite looking like the aircraft doing it when perhaps the satellite was trying to re-transmit the data, I don't know, but perhaps someone could clarify this. Some are talking about it like a cellphone you send the message if the receiver phone is off and cannot accept the signal the network keeps trying until it finds the receiving phone.

It's obvious that there is no Lat Long data in this satellite data or they would know exactly where the aircraft went.

I believe there is too much information being bounced around and too many assumptions being made and leaked to news organizations and this is changing the scenario to the point of being ridiculous.

At this point I cannot see them every finding this aircraft and perhaps after this the authorities will mandate an autonomous data system being fitted to all civil aircraft that sends good data at real time with funding of the system by the international community at least then if something happens e can find the god damn aircraft!!!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-15 07:47:30 and read 42168 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 128):
The pilot is also a life member of the political party headed by Anwar.

I remember reading in the news (in Europe) a few hours before MH370 about Anwar Ibrahim incarcirated for sodomy. And then about the disappearance of MH370. Too many news about Malaysia in one day... it could be just a coincidence... or that would rather lead to the suicide theory (a sick way to embarrass the Malaysian government; if they have shown something this week is how incompetent they are) or a hijack for (local) political reasons.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-15 07:50:08 and read 41319 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 120):
The fact that the PM did the press conference and that he said what he said, and that the aircraft continued to fly for at least 6 hours longer than we thought pretty much points to the current theory being hijacking, whether or not one or more pilots were involved.

It could also point to something else. The president steps in. Why does he do that. Because he reads in the press that his country is in disarray that the investigators are incompetent etc etc. The aviation investigators follow the "plane crashed on its way to china" theory while the military follow the "radar signature to the straight of Malacca" theory. Two different teams investigating two different issues leaking information to the press who then magnify everything exponentially. To the outside world it looks like a mess. Did the president step in to put an end to conflicting agendas ? Is this an image correction move ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-15 07:53:08 and read 34102 times.

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 131):
At his point, isn't it time to open a new thread, under a NEW TITLE and close/delete all of those numerous threads that looked at this incident as a "crash investigation". How about: "MH370 Hijacked by terrorists"

That thread could be started, but even the investigators are admitting that this is not the only avenue of investigation, just the most likely scenario right now.

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 131):
This aircraft is no longer "Missing-En-Route".

Technically, it is still missing en route. The aircraft is missing, and it was en route as per the last information known. Off course, but technically en route.

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 131):
This was way too sophisticated to even be considered an "accident". There is no smoking wreckage.

An accident is defined as an event with fatalities, serious injuries or structural damage to the aircraft. While we don't know this has happened, it seems a reasonable assumption. However for now it can only be classified as an incident since we only know there has been an irregularity in that the aircraft has seemingly vanished.

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 131):
This stopped being a Search and Rescue mission some time ago.

It has not. Search is ongoing and rescue is a possibility.

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 131):
People, it's time to throw away the "political correctness" and acknowledge that this is a TERRORIST ATTACK in the making.

This 26-thread chain has been littered with UFO abduction theories, orbital boost theories, James Bond style volcano lairs and assaults on the character of various countries and peoples. My impression is that political correctness has not been very high on the agenda.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 07:59:19 and read 40053 times.

Last satellite contact at 08:11 local time. If thats true and not another track thats called bullshit tomorrow then its exactly the time fuel would have ran out on board MH370.

Locations:
1. northern corridor stretching from the border of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan to Northern Thailand. If MH370 would have made it somewhere there numerous military radar installations of several countries should know or they are just scrap value.
2. southern corridor from Indonesia to the southern Indian Ocean. Thats the suicide route.

About the pilots, do both have wife and kids?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: holzmann
Posted 2014-03-15 07:59:54 and read 40020 times.

Thinking along the lines of using a 777 to inflict terror in 9-11 style...

I would like to know if the pilots or anyone on the plane had any sort of connection to the Flight 93 terrorists. No one knows what the F93 target was suppose to be. I think the White House / US Capitol were both the most likely suspects.

My question: Was there anyone on MH370 who had strong reasons, personal, religious, or otherwise, to finish the job?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-15 08:01:11 and read 39579 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 136):
The aviation investigators follow the "plane crashed on its way to china" theory while the military follow the "radar signature to the straight of Malacca" theory. Two different teams investigating two different issues leaking information to the press who then magnify everything exponentially.

These theories are not mutually exclusive, and most of the leaking has been coming from unnamed US officials so you can hardly blame the Malaysians for that. It is logical to look for the plane where the radar trace ends, as more information becomes availible the flight path is extended and you look in another place, what wrong with that?

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:06:43]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-15 08:01:57 and read 39662 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 120):
The other goes over and to empty ocean, and makes sense only in the context of pilot suicide. But why fly so many hours to achieve that end?

If I were a pilot intent on committing such an act and had it out for the company or it's owner (government), why plant the thing in their own backyard? The longer the search and the bigger the mystery, the longer it remains in the headlines. Maybe there was a financial motive or who knows? Hide the evidence. As it doesn't necessarily involve the pilots, any number of passengers could have made a run for the Australian coast, for whatever reason, and miscalculated - crashing or ditching into the sea due to fuel starvation.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 122):
Why not? Like I've said many times it's perfectly plausible theory a suicidal crew member hijacked the plane, flew it far into Indian Ocean and crashed it there. Way more believable than a Chinese cover up IMO.

It's also worth recalling that the WSJ broke the news of the satellite data. They had also reported that the last transmission came from above the Indian Ocean. If this is accurate as well, that would sink a number of theories floating about on here.

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 132):
Who benefits form a hijacking?

A government? I can't see it.

Welcome to anet. The problem I see with government involvement isn't so much a potential benefit, but rather a massive risk of epic repercussions. The same goes for a government involved in a cover-up.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 08:04:32 and read 38992 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 136):
Did the president step in to put an end to conflicting agendas ?

Prime Minister.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 08:05:36 and read 39104 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 136):
Did the president step in to put an end to conflicting agendas ? Is this an image correction move ?

Before anything else, yes. The chairman and CEO stepping in always means image correction as well as kicking butts of bad managers. Wonder what we´ll know tomorrrow. If MH370 flew 6 hours further its far from Malaysia, far away from anything most of the current SAR teams can reach in days.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-15 08:05:55 and read 39202 times.

FYI - I'm working on a new "sanity check" this morning based on the latest news. That will appear either at the end of this - or the beginning of the new thread - depending on how long it takes.
-bg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: argonaught
Posted 2014-03-15 08:09:16 and read 38500 times.

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 131):
There is no smoking wreckage.

There could be .. someplace where no-one has looked. It's not terribly hard to hide an airplane. During the WWII, they tucked away under a tarp a whole aircrat plant, along with the in-house runway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgFJKtznKMo

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 131):
This stopped being a Search and Rescue mission some time ago.

Au contraire, it has not. If this indeed a hijacking, the pirates are likely doing their best to keep the pax safe (a dead hostage being a not very good bargaining chip). Which means, the hostages could hopefully be retrieved alive in one way or another. Which makes this an order of magnitude more important search and rescue mission than just looking for dead bodies.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 08:10:44 and read 38099 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 136):
or that would rather lead to the suicide theory (a sick way to embarrass the Malaysian government; if they have shown something this week is how incompetent they are) or a hijack for (local) political reasons.

Actually, I thought there was something in his Facebook but I cant find the thread which mentioned it here. On March 8, an unprecedented trial took place in KL where the court working overtime convicted the opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim to five years imprisonment. EU, AL Gore among many who criticized the trial and the prosecution. Many Malaysians believed the trial was a tool used by the government to prevent him from contesting a crucial by-election. The verdict of the trial was delivered around 7 p.m. Most Malaysian would have known by 8 p.m. We do not for sure whether the decision of the court affected the captain but let us go through the events.

1) The first report after CNN reported bout the missing plane was a tweet from TV3 (government controlled station) said the plane landed safely in Nanning.

2) Apparently, Tony the CEO of AirAsia also said the same thing.

How and why did TV3 and Tony said the plane landed in Nanning. Surely, Tony as a CEO wouldn't have said it without verifying the information. Who fed him the news?

3) A few hours later, it was announced that the plane was missing since 2 40 a.m.

How did they got the correct time in the first place around 9 a.m on March 8? Even though, the government later retracted that stamen and said the plane was missing at 1.33 am . From the beginning the government knew the correct time it disappeared. If the knew about 2.40 am then they also should know it was some where near Pulau Perak on the opposite direction.

4) The was a report on 9 March that Vietnamese air controlled called Malaysia twice to inform that they lost MH370 but they didn't receive any reply from Malaysia. Why?

These events raise questions whether Msia is telling the whole truth. Could there be a hijack and demand but it was too embarrassing for the government to revel it to the world?

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:12:12]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SLCPilot
Posted 2014-03-15 08:11:33 and read 38004 times.

Serious question...

Do all/most/some/any/none life rafts and slides have individual ELTs?

Is this an option or not?

SLCPilot

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ER757
Posted 2014-03-15 08:11:43 and read 38005 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 56):

My question to you would be why land in a remote location and hide the plane? To what end? If someone pirated the aircraft to hold it and the passengers for ransom, we'd have heard from them by now. If it was hijacked by a passenger or the crew so they could seek asylum, they'd have landed in their country of choice at an airport. If someone just wanted to disappear, they wouldn't take 230+ others along for the ride and just dump them off. Even if they did, someone out of that group would have made contact by now in one way or another.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-15 08:12:08 and read 37821 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 82):
Highway could have parts that are prepared as landing strips for the military. But no place with a highway in China is so remote that a 777 would not be noticed.

As I stated in post 6 I think, there are some very interesting things out in the remote parts of China that easily could handle something this size with no one noticing for a long while. Check this out: http://gizmodo.com/5859081/why-is-ch...ctures-in-the-middle-of-the-desert - particularly these two : http://g.co/maps/375xc & http://g.co/maps/vgdf7

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 132):
...

Just out of curiosity, are you sleeping at all? What timezone are you in? You see to be everywhere in these posts, which I am glad because it makes it easy for me to catch up.

Quoting clickhappy (THREAD 25: Reply 18):
Was there enough fuel on board to have flown to Diego Garcia?

That is still an answer no one has provided, and it shocks me that they haven't. This would answer SO much, or at least point in the right direction. It's a completely different game if say the pilot loaded 50% more fuel.

Quoting spacecadet (THREAD 25: Reply 68):
That's insane! This plane could be practically anywhere, and there's a half-decent chance it's actually intact.

It certainly has only increased my belief instead of decreased that it is intact. I really wish we knew the actual fuel load.

Quoting socalgeo (THREAD 25: Reply 100):
OK, I added a 3000 mile buffer and a 3500 mile buffer for 6 and 7 hours flight time at 500 mph...

Sir, your maps are outstanding. I reserve Respected User list for those who provide significant airplane knowledge over a long period of time. But as someone who works a lot with Google Maps API, if there were a Map Making Respected User List, you would be on it. Thank you for what you have done. It actually help simplify the theories big time.

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:15:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: blueheronNC
Posted 2014-03-15 08:12:13 and read 37802 times.

Quoting argonaught (Reply 144):
If this indeed a hijacking, the pirates are likely doing their best to keep the pax safe (a dead hostage being a not very good bargaining chip).

Unless the point of the hijacking was for the plane itself, not the passengers. Then you kill them as seamlessly as you can (hypoxia at a high altitude) and dump the bodies as quickly as possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: dirktraveller
Posted 2014-03-15 08:12:56 and read 38075 times.

Hi everyone, I have been skimming again the past four threads I've missed.

I am aware of the recent press conference by the Malaysian PM indicating that the B777's disappearance most probably done deliberately. I do apologise if I have asked some questions that someone had probably asked before.

With hijacking being the leading theory here, I was wondering if on there were air marshals on board this flight? Surely, in today's post September 11 security it would not be that easy to take hostage of an international flight without any resistance from passengers/crew or the armed air marshals doing their duty.

A few threads ago some wondered if there's any more background on the F/O, I found a Straits Times article and it was apparently said he was a son of a high-ranking official in Selangor, although no further explanations were given.

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-...sia-airlines-plane-works-hard-and-

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 123):
I have translated some of the Malay of the Captains facebook page. What do you think?

Thanks for sharing this one, looks like he do believe strongly on one of the side of Malaysian politics. But again if we were to hypothetically think he would deliberately bring down MH370 to show a political statement, we could easily have seen this flight gone down in downtown Kuala Lumpur or some govt buildings.

Sorry but somehow I can't see how a political statement can be made by deliberately bringing down a B777 filled with mostly Chinese passengers in the middle of Indian Ocean. But feel free to explain to me if I may have seen this wrongly.

And do you know when was the Captain made this post? I believe it was during the Malaysian election in 2013? I hope this was not posted on just days before the flight went missing..

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 136):
Did the president step in to put an end to conflicting agendas ? Is this an image correction move ?

Just a tiny nitpicking, it is the Prime Minister in Malaysia. It could be the case, having him to brief this important piece of update might hopefully restored the world's confidence on them handling the situation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 08:14:12 and read 37940 times.

How utterly incompetent must the Malaysians be if a WHOLE WEEK later its revealed the plane flew on for 6 hours longer?
The only alternative to incompetence I can see: they knew. But then 7 days of SAR dont make sense as it would be too costly a diversion.

One thing we know now is, anyone can overfly Malaysia and no military nor someone else will stop you.

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:17:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-15 08:15:43 and read 37982 times.

Now that there's a possibility that MH370 crashed in the middle of the Indian Ocean, I wonder if we might never find the debris (let alone the CVR/FDR)... Or will some debris eventually be washed ashore somewhere, even if it takes months for that?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 08:18:56 and read 37216 times.

Quoting danvs (Reply 152):
Or will some debris eventually be washed ashore somewhere, even if it takes months for that?

Almost certainly, yes, but perhaps so small and in such remote places it might pass unnoticed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 08:19:59 and read 37208 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 73):
In a democracy, you can't go searching homes without probably cause. The need for a search warrant is one of the foundations of the legal system, and for good reason.

In Msia, the legal system works differently. Police can ransack with or without a warrant depending on the situation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-15 08:24:03 and read 36686 times.

Really if it is confirmed the plane flew for 6hrs longer, I see no point in searching the Malacca Strait or the Andaman sea.

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:24:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-15 08:25:28 and read 36353 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 136):
Two different teams investigating two different issues leaking information to the press who then magnify everything exponentially.

But it isn't the Malaysians who've been doing the bulk of the leaking, there's only the one instance and that may be down to a misunderstanding. Initially it was the Vietnamese broadcasting every time they spotted a fag packet in the South China Sea, then the Chinese with their satellite pictures, and latterly the Americans for whom every news outlet seems to have it's half baked NTSB or, more likely, FAA "source" who seemingly doesn't care for ICAO obligations. I'm not patriotic, and am fond of the US (I'll be there again in 3 weeks), but in this case I'm quite proud that the level of UK involvement has been discrete enough to only become apparent today.

The Malaysian actions have been entirely consistent with the version of events outlined by the PM in all fairness. And, apart from an eccentric analogy involving Mario Ballotelli, and an ill advised (if true) admission that there are some things they can't tell us, their communications have been accurate. The confusion has come from the red herrings and half truths from other sources, magnified by the inability of the press to comprehend the details and their desperation for information.

Normally press inaccuracy regarding aviation doesn't bother me - if they confuse their 737's and 767's it has no material impact on events. But in this case, given the multinational nature of this search, it seems there has been operational impact from the leaks and reporting. Certainly there was a hiatus in the Vietnamese search as a result (in hindsight with no consequences) and co-operation with China seems to have be affected. I personally have lost a lot of respect for the WSJ in the last couple of days for what it's worth.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-15 08:27:32 and read 36117 times.

re: The Southern Route.

Indonesia stated they got no radar pings.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Jetlagged
Posted 2014-03-15 08:27:57 and read 36107 times.

Quoting na (Reply 151):
How utterly incompetent must the Malaysians be if a WHOLE WEEK later its revealed the plane flew on for 6 hours longer?
The only alternative to incompetence I can see: they knew. But then 7 days of SAR dont make sense as it would be too costly a diversion.


It's simplistic and misleading to say either they knew or they were incompetent. You missed the third possibility: The Malaysians simply had no evidence that it had happened. It was a possibility based on primary radar indications but they had discounted it. Then the USA came up with further identifiable data the Malaysians had no access to.


Quoting na (Reply 151):
One thing we know now is, anyone can overfly Malaysia and no military nor someone else will stop you.

Nonsense.

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:29:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-15 08:29:16 and read 35754 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 156):
Really if it is confirmed the plane flew for 6hrs longer, I see no point in searching the Malacca Strait or the Andaman sea.

But no one knows the exact track or position of the airplane, so it might be anywhere, including the Malacca Strait, the Andaman sea, or anywhere within a 6-hour radius from the last known position.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-15 08:32:59 and read 35227 times.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 159):
Then the USA came up with further identifable data the Malaysians had no access to.

That may not be true - the data was obtained from the "satellite services provider" and analysed by the Malaysian, US and UK investigators independently. Who did the obtaining is another matter. Agree with the rest of what you said though.

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:33:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-15 08:33:44 and read 35477 times.

Ok, I know I got slammed for being Xenophobic for suggesting Chinese espionage by some on here. But given the recent developments, I want to at least look at the practicality of the flight plan and the possibility of the MH pilot recruitment for Chinese Espionage. Keep in mind, when I said what I said in post 6, at the time I had NO idea about VAMPI, GIVAL or IGREX.

As I stated before, there are some weird things in the Chinese desert. Particularly this: http://g.co/maps/375xc and if I take the point of that map and put it into SkyVector, I get almost a 360 degree turn to the north, within range of known fuel load, going through Mynanmar airspace. I would think radar coverage in Myanmar would be one of the weakest in the region.

Any thoughts?

http://skyvector.com/?ll=25.24999561...AL:F.VO.IGREX:G.40.488966,93.50004



[Edited 2014-03-15 08:36:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 08:39:09 and read 34439 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 157):

If they first flew towards west and then turned south it shouldn't have been difficult to avoid Indonesian radars.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 08:39:31 and read 34439 times.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 138):
Thinking along the lines of using a 777 to inflict terror in 9-11 style...

I would like to know if the pilots or anyone on the plane had any sort of connection to the Flight 93 terrorists. No one knows what the F93 target was suppose to be. I think the White House / US Capitol were both the most likely suspects.

My question: Was there anyone on MH370 who had strong reasons, personal, religious, or otherwise, to finish the job?

Anything is possible but I highly doubt it. F93 and 9/11 were mostly Saudi and Egyptian Arabs. There were literally no Arabs on this plane let alone Saudis and Egyptians. There are some Malaysian and Chinese extremists out there but if I find it unlikely they would hijack a 777, refuel and then sneak it back toward the US east cost to finish off whatever the target was. The only two people investigated up until the pilots today were the Iranian asylum seekers who had no access to 777 technology as it isn't flown in Iran. They would have no idea how to turn off ACARS let alone hijack it and control it. I doubt anyone but the pilots had that know how. You had to know the 777 intimately to get into its EE bay.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-15 08:41:32 and read 34076 times.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 159):
Nonsense.

Sorry, but its your answer that is nonsense. The plane wasnt stopped, not identified, not even detected in time. So, what the logical answer?

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 159):
It's simplistic and misleading to say either they knew or they were incompetent. You missed the third possibility: The Malaysians simply had no evidence that it had happened.

If they had no evidence or discarded evidence of a plane flying over their territory for quite some time how do you call it then? Bad equipment, insufficient surveillance, ineffectivemess of the military and so on, a lot comes together. I know I am being simplistic by saying its either incompetence or they were hiding evidence. Deliberately, because thats the bottomline it comes to. I grant them the benefit that they have to deal with a never-before-seen situation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 08:44:27 and read 33404 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 164):
The only two people investigated up until the pilots today were the Iranian asylum seekers who had no access to 777 technology as it isn't flown in Iran

Not exactly true. The people with stolen passport was not even detected by Msian authorities until the real owners told their passport were stolen. I wonder if they were ignorant of MH370 then would Msia discovered about them?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 08:45:44 and read 33332 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 170):
Not exactly true. The people with stolen passport was not even detected by Msian authorities until the real owners told their passport were stolen. I wonder if they were ignorant of MH370 then would Msia discovered about them?

The investigators would have run all the passport numbers against the Interpol database.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-15 08:46:48 and read 33126 times.

Quoting dougbr2006 (Reply 134):
If the AHARS was off and not sending information, which system was supposedly sending data to the satellite?

Scenario #1 where pilots and airline ops can exchange messages
ACARS CONSOLE -> ACARS CONTROLLER -> SATCOM -> INMARSAT -> SITA -> AIRLINE OPS

Scenario #2 Engine sends health data to RR. Most likely scenario for MH because it is subscribed only for this service.
Engine Diag System-> ACARS CONTROLLER -> SATCOM -> INMARSAT -> SITA -> RR

Scenario #2a (Same as #2 except using VHF, i.e., when in VHF range below 30,000 feet)
Engine Diag System-> ACARS CONTROLLER -> VHF Antenna-> Ground based VHF Network-> SITA -> RR

What link system uses depends on airline policy and available link. If VHF is cheap it uses VHF, if there is no VHF uses SATCOM.

SATCOM establishes link with INMARSAT and keeps it alive. If there is real data like message between flight crew and airline ops (or) engine health data, ACARS Controller passes on to SATCOM, inturn to INMARSAT sends those to SITA.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-15 08:47:22 and read 33256 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 157):
But it isn't the Malaysians who've been doing the bulk of the leaking

The Malaysian Military leaked information about the radar dots to the straight of Malacca. At one point the crash investigators stated that only information the crash investigators release is officially valid. Why would they state that? Because they can't control what the military does or says. So now the Prime Minister stepped in to force the crash investigators to follow the military opinion after what seems like more believable US sources came up with 'convincing' explanations. I can bet you the satcom info turns out to be wrong and those radar blips are from another aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Mouldypete
Posted 2014-03-15 08:47:49 and read 33233 times.

The current assumption seems to be that the plane was flying for seven hours until 8:10am. Is this based solely on the reception by Inmarsat satellite of the ACARS ping which carries no data?

The position information calculated from the satellite data seems to be based on the angle between the satellite and the ping emitter and there is no indication of compass direction along the circumference of the circle where the plane is.

Or have they released other directional data on the flight after it left the western margins of Malaysian radar coverage?
A further question then surfaces.

If the plane landed safely say after a couple of hours and left the engines on tick-over to keep the batteries charged and power to the plane systems, would the automatic pinging continue; thus mimicking flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ultrablue
Posted 2014-03-15 08:48:57 and read 32937 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 163):
As I stated before, there are some weird things in the Chinese desert. Particularly this: http://g.co/maps/375xc

From memory the consensus was that they are just fake airports painted onto the ground for Chinese air force training.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 08:51:55 and read 32525 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 171):

They didn't and even claimed that too many names and it would be tedious. The truth is a friend of the two Iranians posted in the comment section of CNN identifying the two and the group photograph just before departing. He even claimed that he and the mother of one of the person with stolen passport already contacted MAS and gave the information. That was 15 hour earlier long before Msian police identified one of them,

Ths information can also found here in thread 9, I think.

[Edited 2014-03-15 08:53:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: luisde8cd
Posted 2014-03-15 08:52:37 and read 32779 times.

Guys,

I read a tweet that implies that MH370 could had "shadowed" SQ68 on its way from SIN to BCN. Take a look at flightaware log for SQ68, especially departure time and cruise altitude (30,000ft). Wasn't Malaysian radar reporting MH370 flying at 29500ft?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S.../20140307/1640Z/WSSS/LEBL/tracklog

http://i57.tinypic.com/2rfx6b4.png

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-15 08:58:04 and read 31696 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 145):
On March 8, an unprecedented trial took place in KL where the court working overtime convicted the opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim to five years imprisonment. ...The verdict of the trial was delivered around 7 p.m. Most Malaysian would have known by 8 p.m. We do not for sure whether the decision of the court affected the captain but let us go through the events.

1) The first report after CNN reported bout the missing plane was a tweet from TV3 (government controlled station) said the plane landed safely in Nanning.

2) Apparently, Tony the CEO of AirAsia also said the same thing.

How and why did TV3 and Tony said the plane landed in Nanning. Surely, Tony as a CEO wouldn't have said it without verifying the information. Who fed him the news?

3) A few hours later, it was announced that the plane was missing since 2 40 a.m.

How did they got the correct time in the first place around 9 a.m on March 8? Even though, the government later retracted that stamen and said the plane was missing at 1.33 am . From the beginning the government knew the correct time it disappeared. If the knew about 2.40 am then they also should know it was some where near Pulau Perak on the opposite direction.

4) The was a report on 9 March that Vietnamese air controlled called Malaysia twice to inform that they lost MH370 but they didn't receive any reply from Malaysia. Why?

This makes a lot sense reading how focused the pilot was about politics, his facebook posts.

Also the Nanning story wasn't just a rumor, some decent news groups based it on a source which (it is rumored) was T Fernandes. Did he tweet it and delete it ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-15 09:00:39 and read 31037 times.

Quoting ultrablue (Reply 175):
From memory the consensus was that they are just fake airports painted onto the ground for Chinese air force training.

For sure. But that doesn't preclude it to be used for other things. Kind of like Edwards Air Force base.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flyorski
Posted 2014-03-15 09:03:23 and read 31030 times.

Quoting luisde8cd (Reply 179):
a tweet that implies that MH370 could had "shadowed" SQ68 on its way from SIN to BCN. Take a look at flightaware log for SQ68, especially departure time and cruise altitude (30,000ft). Wasn't Malaysian radar reporting MH370 flying at 29500ft?

Except it did not have the fuel to do so.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-15 09:03:25 and read 31046 times.

Quoting luisde8cd (Reply 179):
I read a tweet that implies that MH370 could had "shadowed" SQ68 on its way from SIN to BCN. Take a look at flightaware log for SQ68, especially departure time and cruise altitude (30,000ft). Wasn't Malaysian radar reporting MH370 flying at 29500ft?

I thought about a scenario like that myself, but wouldn't it be picked up on the other planes TCAS? Or does the transponder need to be on for TCAS to work?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Wolger
Posted 2014-03-15 09:03:59 and read 31125 times.

Just to state it again Malaysia had mentioned a day or 2 after incident Day 1 (can't remember) "there IS possibility of a Turnback" by the aircraft (albeit not reciprocal or U-turn) and the search area was expanded to the west coast of peninsular. Malaysia had been consistent in this.

Facts about the pilot, I don't have much speculation to offer apart from the one I'd stated earlier way back (Somali pirates hired pros or rogue pilots for ransom money and the release of captured Somali pirates from Malaysian jail - family relations - pirate bosses).

Fact about the pilot as some poster had raised this.
He was a strong supporter of the Opposition. Somebody mentioned he liked atheist literature so he couldn't be an islamist. 3 main parties in the Opposition pact: Anwar Ibrahim's secular multiracial PKR/People's Justice party, islamist PAS/Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, chinese DAP/Democratic Action Party. Another minor party which didn't contest in the last General Election. As a conclusion he could be PKR supporter. Anwar Ibrahim was recently a day before incident(?) was convicted by the Court of Appeal on a charge of sodomy overturning a High Court acquittal in 2012

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 09:04:17 and read 30818 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 173):
I can bet you the satcom info turns out to be wrong and those radar blips are from another aircraft.

Impossible they are from another aircraft. The SATCOM modem, like any networked device, will have a unique identifier like the ICAO 24-bit address for the transponder or a MAC address in typical computer networks. The satellite needs to know who it is talking to, and receivers need to be able to filter out broadcasts not intended for them.

If they say those pings were from the accident a/c, 100% they were.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-15 09:04:36 and read 30834 times.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 177):
Except it did not have the fuel to do so.

1) We don't know what Fuel it had because no one has officially released what was loaded. 2.) I think the theory is that it broke off at some point and landed somewhere, maybe Iran.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-15 09:04:48 and read 30809 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 173):
The Malaysian Military leaked information about the radar dots to the straight of Malacca.

Which is why I said there's been one instance.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 173):
So now the Prime Minister stepped in to force the crash investigators to follow the military opinion after what seems like more believable US sources came up with 'convincing' explanations. I can bet you the satcom info turns out to be wrong and those radar blips are from another aircraft.

I really can't follow this. The investigators clearly did follow up the Military primary radar evidence since they searched to the west as well as the east from the start. And in any case those returns have now been determined to be MH370 by follow up analysis by the FAA/NTSB/AAIB, unless the Malaysian PM is misrepresenting them, and those authorities are meekly allowing it.

And what "convincing explanations" are you on about? The US leaks were basically muddled, inaccurate snippets from the in-progress analysis of the inmarsat data. All they achieved was to ramp up Chinese paranoia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: fooflyboy
Posted 2014-03-15 09:04:54 and read 30806 times.

Quoting na (Reply 12):
Even the luckiest highjacker, the quickest and the wittiest needs some seconds to enter the cockpit,
Quoting seahawk (Reply 100):
One crew member alone could not do it. He would have to remove the other pilot and disable any means of communication in the cabin.

Could one of you professionals describe exactly how cockpit doors are locked these days? And also what the protocol is regarding rest room breaks and meal service (in regards to opening the cockpit door)?

Quoting argonaught (Reply 125):
Doesn't look like a typical terrorist attack; someone would have claimed responsibility long ago.

I disagree. Remember before 911 we had never seen anything like that before. I think it's very possible we are seeing something here that we've never seen before as well.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 09:05:01 and read 30756 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 178):
I thought about a scenario like that myself, but wouldn't it be picked up on the other planes TCAS? Or does the transponder need to be on for TCAS to work?

TCAS relies on the transponder to work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Miami
Posted 2014-03-15 09:06:16 and read 30604 times.

Malaysian investigators conclude missing airliner hijacked.

The official said that hijacking was no longer a theory. "It is conclusive."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tristarsteve
Posted 2014-03-15 09:06:19 and read 30592 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 133):
Sorry should have been more clear. I didn't say that this had been done, just that it was plausible a hypothetical hijacker would cut every thing but ACARS through SATCOM because this would have required leaving the cockpit.

On the pilots MFD they can deselect ACARS transmission by VHF and SATCOM.
This does not tuen off the VHF and SATCOM, just stops ACARS from using them. This part of the Communications Manager is well down inside the menus and I don't expect the average piloy has ever seen it. but its use is shown in the FCOM.

There is no ACARS CB on a B777.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 95):
1) The first system to fail in ACARS. Because this system is not essential for flying the failure is unnoticed or ignored by the pilots.

If ACARS failed, the pilots would get a Status message. But there is no ACARS controller or ACARS computor on a B777. The computing is done inside a box inside the AIMS rack. This box does many other COMs functions as well. The management of ACARS is on the MFD on the pedestal. This MFD has thousands of functions, and ACARS control is just one of them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: lgbga
Posted 2014-03-15 09:06:58 and read 30571 times.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 177):

That we are aware of. I have read that it landed. Who's to say it didn't refuel. Just a thought.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 09:07:38 and read 30604 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 180):

My guess is the government retracted the 240 a.m. time because by then it would been way passed Vietnam. Vietnam then would have denied the plane even crossed its air space which complicates matter for Msia if there was a demand made and we are not told about. Otherwise, I don't see why they waited for 4 days to reveal that the 2 .40 a.m, was the last contact made on the radar.

My guess is there probably some sort of demand or statement made that put Msia in difficult situation. The pilot or whoever in control of the plane got angry and decided to disappear.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: aircal62
Posted 2014-03-15 09:09:10 and read 30268 times.

reading through all the post and following the news closely a few things stand out to me at least. The two tracts discussed one following south and the other north appear to be mirror images, so this would infer that the data sets used to plot them gives an either or path which at this time cannot be determined. The southern path makes no sense, as why go to all the trouble just to fly off into the ocean and die. The northern tract seems to make all the sense based on what we now.

Here are my thoughts and conjecture on this:

I do not think this was a spur of the moment decision or random act. I believe that this has involved a lot of planning and a lot of people. Go back to some of the other discussed plots using planes around the time of the 9-11 attack. I feel that this is part of something bigger but not yet finished. It indeed may not bear fruit for those involved for many reasons. However even if this is a failed attempt at something there was and is a lot that who ever planned this has learned from this. I believe that both pilots were involved and working as a team with perhaps two or more people in the cabin. I know many want to say that the senior pilot could not be involved because of his being atheist, but what is on the surface I do not believe to be what was actually going on in the mans life. Did the senior pilot have a hand in the junior pilots being upgraded into the 777 I wonder? The climb to 45,000 feet and then steep decent would make anyone following the aircraft on radar think that the aircraft plunged into the ocean at or near the last contact point and search there, delaying looking and finding the actual flight path. I don't believe for a second that there was a fight to take control of this aircraft, or that someone else other than the pilots were flying this aircraft. Following known flight routes makes sense too. Military controllers become blind and really do not watch what they see every day. What becomes common is no longer seen even right in front of you. Going back and reviewing data, the aircraft will be found and plotted, but this going to take days and perhaps weeks. The 240 or so passengers sadly I feel are of no use, this is not about a hostage situation.

I also do not think that this is related to what is going on in Malaysia or China. The planning for this likely has been on going longer than these events have been news. There is very little of value to be gained by using an airliner in the local fights. My bet is that the aircraft is in northern Pakistan. Many elements of the Pakistani government and military are anti-west especially anti American,British and Isreal. I would think that a new transponder from another aircraft might be installed and if the aircraft is flown again, it might be showing up as a PIA flight. There are only I would guess 4 high value targets worth this much trouble: Isreal, London, NYC and Washington DC if you want to really make a statement.

So there you go, I have crossed into the land of conspiracy nuts. However how many of the things a week ago that were considered highly improbable are now considered the most likely. The "terrorist" have generally shown themselves to be very forward thinking, resourceful and able to accomplish the unimaginable. Finding the wreckage or evidence that this aircraft crashed in a most sad way may be the best outcome.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 09:09:15 and read 30257 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 167):

Not exactly true. The people with stolen passport was not even detected by Msian authorities until the real owners told their passport were stolen. I wonder if they were ignorant of MH370 then would Msia discovered about them?

No, but the Malayasian confirmed they entered on their real passports. The stolen passports were used just once, to get into Europe. Besides, turning off ACARS on a plane you've never been on is basically impossible.

Even if a passenger held a gun to the pilots saying turn off all communications, my guess is that most would just shut off the Transponder. I have a feeling only the Captain of the plane really had the know how, as unfortunate as it is to believe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 09:10:05 and read 30117 times.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 186):
On the pilots MFD they can deselect ACARS transmission by VHF and SATCOM.
This does not tuen off the VHF and SATCOM, just stops ACARS from using them.

Finally, another confirmation on this. I had been repeating this throughout this thread but people kept going on and on about the damn E/E bay.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Freeman
Posted 2014-03-15 09:10:10 and read 30090 times.

As others, I've followed this story unfold with great interest...

I believe certain facts have been leaked (which authorities are now trying to cover up with a disinformation campaign) that tell enough of the story to make an intelligent assessment:

One or both pilots are involved.

The passengers probably didn't know anything was amiss and were just settling in for the long red eye flight.

Assuming the aircraft turned and was flying to the NW, they were gaining time (flying into the darkness) which tells us they most likely landed at a military airfield (think Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia) and concealed the aircraft in a hangar before the sun came up...and well before the public was aware of a missing aircraft.

The plane has already been repainted and will soon be repurposed as a weapon of mass destruction. There's a reason they wanted a heavy (+/-7,500 mile range) jumbo jet and I have a news flash...it's not to sell off its parts or fly it to Switzerland to request asylum.

Potential targets include Tel Aviv (make it look like an Iranian op so that the rest of the world can justify another war) and Washington D.C. because the American regime (and I'm an American) is the biggest exporter of war the world has ever seen.

This is a very well planned, financed and rehearsed government sponsored act...think Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Iran.

The aircraft with it's new livery and transponder will (sooner than later) be utilized in an attack that will rival a 9/11 or any other act of terrorism we've ever witnessed.

One final thought...I'm startled by the amount of disinformation (as opposed to misinformation) over the last few days (and in light of the fact we haven't found any wreckage) this reaffirms and catalyzes my assessment of what has and is about to happen with this aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 09:13:49 and read 29799 times.

Quoting aircal62 (Reply 189):
any elements of the Pakistani government and military are anti-west especially anti American,British and Isreal. I would think that a new transponder from another aircraft might be installed and if the aircraft is flown again, it might be showing up as a PIA flight.

I mean this is really fanciful. You do realize the aircraft livery would say "MALAYSIAN AIRLINES". Someone is going to spot it unless you repaint it, which involves another 15 people seeing it and having to keep their mouths shut.

Even if it made it to Pakistan, how the heck are you going to get around India without them noticing? There weren't even any Pakistanis on the flight?

If there was a target, my bet is the Petronas Towers. I hope Malayasia beefs up their air force to protect it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 09:14:44 and read 29407 times.

Quoting Freeman (Reply 192):

Cool story, are the Illuminati lizard overlords involved too?

Seriously, that's one of the worst conspiracy theories I've ever heard. Why go hijack a 777 full of pax when you could just buy an old 747-200 (similar to what Iran Air operates), paint it in Iran Air livery, and do the whole thing using it?

That would be cheaper, much more believable & way easier to do.

[Edited 2014-03-15 09:18:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 09:15:15 and read 29342 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 190):
No, but the Malayasian confirmed they entered on their real passports. The stolen passports were used just once, to get into Europe

Correction; Malaysia did not say that. Interpol said they entered Msia using their real passport. Msia would not say that because if they used their real passport then how did they get arrival stamp on their stolen passport? Wouldn't the immigration officer would stopped them for illegal entry?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ranold76
Posted 2014-03-15 09:15:26 and read 29396 times.

How many of you logical-minded, career professionals would kill yourself and 230+ innocents over your political party's leader getting arrested?
Seemingly assinine question right? So why are some on here immediately assuming and applying it to the Capt.

Last time I checked, it hasn't been established who was in the cockpit and who may have been the PIC etc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-15 09:19:03 and read 28747 times.

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 41):
If so, what's the possibility of this being a heist, and the plane was taken and landed somewhere? Have they checked all the airfields in the 2000 mile range they are looking at?

Close to zero. Do something like the London Great Heist and nobody will be really THAT interested, heck you can even enyoy your money somewhere abroad, if you manage to keep your mouth shut. Do something like this and you've just made sure that you'll be hunted down like Bin Laden...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 09:20:15 and read 28369 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 195):

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 190):
No, but the Malayasian confirmed they entered on their real passports. The stolen passports were used just once, to get into Europe

Correction; Malaysia did not say that. Interpol said they entered Msia using their real passport. Msia would not say that because if they used their real passport then how did they get arrival stamp on their stolen passport? Wouldn't the immigration officer would stopped them for illegal entry?

Interpol is probably more reliable. They get visas on arrival in Thailand and Malaysia. That was already covered earlier. Its like 14 days or something. Why would you use a fake passport to get into Malayasia if you can get in on a tourist Visa?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: AYVN
Posted 2014-03-15 09:23:41 and read 27995 times.

How big % of hull-loss incidents of all times has been due foul play? I don't think very high.
Most have been due human error of some kind ie pilot error, maintenance error, or manufacturing error of a component.
Why majority of posters here seem to think that this time foul play is the reason? Because plane hasn't been found?

I just can't belive the amount of wild speculation and theories in these threads. However I think I will share mine to be flamed here:

Something happend around last communication, it could have been:
Fire that started in or near wires/components needed for radio and other communication, and maybe disabling filight controls and/or disabling everyone
Or
Some kind of catastrophic event with the hull, ripping off wires for those components that failed, and maybe disabling flight controls and/or disabling everyone

How could it continue flight then? I don't know, but I don't know eather why brand new A340-600 for Etihad didn't shut its engines when it for sure didn't have working flight controls anymore or why Japan Airlines flight 123 would have been differnt from MH370 flight if it would have also lost communication and transponder and stayed in air till the end of fuel?

[Edited 2014-03-15 09:27:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-15 09:24:06 and read 27738 times.

Quoting ranold76 (Reply 196):
How many of you logical-minded, career professionals would kill yourself and 230+ innocents over your political party's leader getting arrested?
Seemingly assinine question right? So why are some on here immediately assuming and applying it to the Capt.

Someone with a mental disorder; millions of people have them. Not the first time this happen (Egyptair or LAM). The arrest could be just a catalyzer (i.e. an episode of anger or rage), or a coincidence.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-15 09:29:45 and read 27007 times.

Quoting ranold76 (Reply 196):
How many of you logical-minded, career professionals would kill yourself and 230+ innocents over your political party's leader getting arrested?
Seemingly assinine question right? So why are some on here immediately assuming and applying it to the Capt.

Last time I checked, it hasn't been established who was in the cockpit and who may have been the PIC etc.

People are just putting out ideas, no one is implying they know the facts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 09:30:09 and read 27119 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 198):
They get visas on arrival in Thailand and Malaysia

I am pretty sure no Visa requirement for Iranian in Msia. I am not sure what was covered but Immigration always check for entry stamp,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-15 09:30:29 and read 27163 times.

could it be that both pilots got into a heavy argument about political issues that happened a day before in Malaysia, and one of them lost it to the point something bad happened in the cockpit, and consequences could not have been overturned, so the surviving pilot went through temporarily sanity or a breakdown that he chose a different actions to end it all

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: blueheronNC
Posted 2014-03-15 09:30:51 and read 27253 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 194):
Seriously, that's one of the worst conspiracy theories I've ever heard. Why go hijack a 777 full of pax when you could just buy an old 747-200 (similar to what Iran Air operates), paint it in Iran Air livery, and do the whole thing using it?

That would be cheaper, much more believable & way easier to do.

Perhaps because buying an old 747-200 that our military and satellites are already keeping tabs on (and you'd better believe they are) doesn't give you the element of surprise?

But hijacking a 777 (or another aircraft with a tremendous flight range) and using it as a missile before anyone even knows where it is and can track your every move? Far more effective and likely to succeed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-15 09:30:54 and read 27171 times.

Quoting AYVN (Reply 199):
Why majority of posters here seem to think that this time foul play is the reason? Because plane hasn't been found?

Because the PM of Malaysia said so, for one. He could be wrong though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-15 09:31:05 and read 27299 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 194):
Why go hijack a 777 full of pax when you could just buy an old 747-200

Because ElAl flies 772. You want to blend in when you crash the stolen plane into Jerusalem.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 09:31:23 and read 27208 times.

Quoting AYVN (Reply 199):

How big % of hull-loss incidents of all times has been due foul play?

More than 0%.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: PHX787
Posted 2014-03-15 09:31:43 and read 27234 times.

It is so hard to keep up with all of these threads so forgive me for asking, and it may even be more worthwhile to send me a PM for this answer, but have there been any ELT transmissions along those pathways listed by the Malaysian government?

Obviously, and this comes from personal experience, a simple hard landing can send off an ELT, but have there been any reports of an ELT going off in those areas?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 09:33:01 and read 26903 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 206):
Because ElAl flies 772. You want to blend in when you crash the stolen plane into Jerusalem.

If Iran is supposed to be the attacker what's the point of that? Even then you could buy some used 772 and do just the same with less effort.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 09:34:10 and read 26601 times.

Quoting AYVN (Reply 199):
Some kind of catastrophic event with the hull, ripping off wires for those components that failed, and maybe disabling flight controls and/or disabling everyone

No worries. Speculating is better here than getting flamed on TV.

I too though of a fire at first because of the progressive nature of failure and the SR 111 incident. Its a distinct possibility IMO.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 200):
Someone with a mental disorde

Problem, is there are several actions that look professional at superficially. The turning, shut off of comms in a certain order etc. Having said that, every other suicidal pilot, literally every case I could find on AVherald, just drove the plane smack into the ground. Short and sweet. It does happen.

What is really just baffling, is why fly 8 hours until bingo fuel? Why suffer for 8 hours? Suicidal people don't normally prolong the affair. Yeah, you get some people on a bridge for a few hours, but thats about it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-15 09:37:42 and read 26232 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 203):

Possible...but then why bother with all the diversion. Let's ask again. Could there be a demand (or a political statement) that are yet to be told by the Msia government? Otherwise, I don't see the point of flying for 8 hours with risk of being shot down or caught?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: JettTracer
Posted 2014-03-15 09:41:20 and read 25813 times.

Two things... what are the cargo transported by MH370.
Another thing - possibility of the flight intercepted and landed in Diego Garcia?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-15 09:43:12 and read 25384 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 211):
Possible...but then why bother with all the diversion. Let's ask again. Could there be a demand (or a political statement) that are yet to be told by the Msia government? Otherwise, I don't see the point of flying for 8 hours with risk of being shot down or caught?

well i thought like from watching so many fbi files show, u get criminals trying to figure out what to do after committing a crime and especially accidental not meaning to kill someone and they are in disarray, maybe i thought same happened here in the air and the other pilot was so panicked what to do or how to do it

just my thoughts, am sure criminal investigators are looking into all scenarios no matter how silly or obscure they sound

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 09:43:36 and read 25410 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 210):

For instance, to find himself in the region as distant as possible from the search area? No, it doesn't look like suicide effort.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: timothy31388
Posted 2014-03-15 09:47:52 and read 24819 times.

Quoting JettTracer (Reply 213):

A good question, sir. I have been wondering as well, what else was the aircraft carrying in the cargo hold on that particular flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: EricR
Posted 2014-03-15 09:49:22 and read 24647 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 212):

China has just unexpectedly abstained in a vote at the UN Security Council criticising tomorrow's Crimean referendum.

That is a huge boost for the USA, because although Russia has vetoed it, Russia was isolated in the voting.

As Rupert Murdoch tweeted, the USA and China are effectively aligned now.

I wonder why China abstained, and whether it is linked with the USA's lack of criticism over MH370?

There was a chance / fear that China was going to veto this along side Russia. The fact that China abstained instead of vetoing it is considered a "win". Therefore, to answer your question, their is no linkage whatsoever.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-15 09:50:33 and read 24310 times.

Quoting timothy31388 (Reply 217):
Quoting JettTracer (Reply 213):

A good question, sir. I have been wondering as well, what else was the aircraft carrying in the cargo hold on that particular flight

not only that, read yesterday in earlier thread someone tweeted that MH370 cargo was the only one not screened

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-15 09:51:00 and read 24298 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 210):
What is really just baffling, is why fly 8 hours until bingo fuel? Why suffer for 8 hours? Suicidal people don't normally prolong the affair. Yeah, you get some people on a bridge for a few hours, but thats about it.

One possibility, discussed previously, is that the suicidal pilot had made a life insurance, so his family would benefit from it.
Another possibility is the "face" factor, which is much stronger in Asian countries than in the West. Losing face/honor is disgraceful in many Asian countries. So the pilot might have tried to hide the fact that he commited suicide and save his family from losing face. On the other hand, I don't know if suicidal people in their state of mind will worry about their families' losing face...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-15 09:53:28 and read 23924 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 210):
What is really just baffling, is why fly 8 hours until bingo fuel? Why suffer for 8 hours? Suicidal people don't normally prolong the affair. Yeah, you get some people on a bridge for a few hours, but thats about it.

Insurance money? Could be possible if the aircraft flew so deep into the Indian Ocean that it will be never found, so insurance company has to pay.

Or pure shame.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-15 09:56:29 and read 23324 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 182):
And in any case those returns have now been determined to be MH370 by follow up analysis by the FAA/NTSB/AAIB, unless the Malaysian PM is misrepresenting them,

Why would the FAA/NTSB know anything about military radar ? The flight information on civilian aviation comes from the transponder in the aircraft. The civilian radar is two dimensional. A container ship appears as a dot on the radar screen the same way an aircraft does. The ATC computers link the planes dot with the information provided by the transponder of the aircraft. A military radar is three dimensional. But it does not pickup the information of the civilian aircraft transponder. So why would the civilian aviation authority FAA/NTSB know anything about Malaysia's Military radar technology. The radar returns analyzed or not do NOT confirm it is MH370. It is not confirmed but suspected.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-15 10:01:50 and read 22781 times.

Quoting JettTracer (Reply 212):
Two things... what are the cargo transported by MH370.
Quoting timothy31388 (Reply 215):
A good question, sir. I have been wondering as well, what else was the aircraft carrying in the cargo hold on that particular flight.

Agree. The fact they haven't released the cargo manifest (if they even know it), and the actual amount of fuel load, is confusing to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-15 10:02:57 and read 22454 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 210):
Problem, is there are several actions that look professional at superficially. The turning, shut off of comms in a certain order etc.

You are assuming that someone with a mental disorder is not able to act "professionally". Otherwise most crimes planned and committed by people with diverse degrees of psychopathy would have never happened in the first place. Probably you deal with "psychopaths" in your daily life and you would not even notice.

The ironical thing is that you are implying that a suicide terrorist would be able to do those actions professionally (someone who at most would have probably a few flight training courses), yet a potential suicide pilot with thousands of hours flying that type (and with a less suspicious role in the plane) wouldn't be able to do it professionally. Call it bias.


Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 210):
literally every case I could find on AVherald, just drove the plane smack into the ground. Short and sweet. It does happen.

What is really just baffling, is why fly 8 hours until bingo fuel? Why suffer for 8 hours? Suicidal people don't normally prolong the affair. Yeah, you get some people on a bridge for a few hours, but thats about it.

There are not that many cases, so it is hard to establish a pattern. Specially when you are dealing with very subjective and personal issues (mental disorders) for which is harder to define a pattern.

We are probably talking about the air crash in the history of aviation with less clues about its potential location. Basically one week after the crash, it could be officially anywhere from Kazakhstan to Australia. And that in 2014. So if you are psychopath you could play a game... let's figure out how to crash it so no one can find it.

Anyway, I am not implying that that any crew members have any mental disorders, and that it couldn't have been hijacked. However I have noticed that in this thread the "suicide" hypothesis is mostly disregarded based on completely weak arguments (the likes of "why would the pilot do that"?)... yet we can read any kind of fantasy theories that would make for a complete saga of James Bond movies.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 10:03:29 and read 22454 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 220):
So why would the civilian aviation authority FAA/NTSB know anything about Malaysia's Military radar technology.

Because they shared the raw data with investigators. They said early on that they would do so, and the PM said in his statement that revealing their radar capability is a secondary concern to finding the aircraft.

It has been confirmed that the aircraft that turned around was MH370, unless you suspect a cover-up of another aircraft flying erratically at those levels around IGARI in the dead of night.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 10:05:08 and read 22284 times.

Regarding pilot suicide, a quote from 'cockpitvisit' on PPRuNe:

In the past 15 years, there have been 3 deadly crashes caused by flight crew suicide. This is about 30% of all deadly accidents happening during cruise flight (not counting 9/11).

It cannot be ruled out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: danvs
Posted 2014-03-15 10:05:41 and read 22165 times.

Does anyone know if ships cruising along the Indian Ocean or Western Australia have been asked (as a courtesy) to search the waters for debris? (Is there something like a NOTAM for ships?)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-15 10:07:00 and read 21995 times.

Regarding the talk of a two "corridors" I presume these are derived from the fact they can use latency or amplitude to detect distance from the Inmarsat satellite, hence the two potential mirror image paths - the end point is presumably where the the last ping occurred assuming a certain speed (and no 180's). If it's the southerly route we're probably talking fuel starvation in the southern Indian Ocean, and maybe pointing to pilot suicide with the intention of not being found. If it's northerly, it'll be something like this (click to enlarge - Google Earth doesn't play well with retina screens, my apologies)

So Burma, Bangladesh, Nepal, Kashmir etc. Nothing makes sense to me and it all gets a bit James Bond. But that assumes a certain speed - if they went slower to preserve fuel, they would the same distance from the satellite at a more easterly longitude - so potentially terminating the flight in south western China?

What I'm getting at - and this is very rough - they were around 2450nm from [directly below] Inmarsat 3 at 8:11. Now, if they were flying lower and slower, and only made it to 74 degrees east instead of 55 deg, they would by in the vicinity of Kashgar in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. Is that possible?

PS: People keep talking about disinformation - I really wish they'd provide examples.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: hohd
Posted 2014-03-15 10:07:55 and read 22485 times.

I am afraid if it indeed crashed into the Indian ocean, there is a possibility that it will never be found. I think the searchers have about 3 to 4 weeks to find it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: gobeyond
Posted 2014-03-15 10:08:04 and read 22195 times.

There are so many conspiracy theories floating around. I think we should expect the plane to have crashed and it will just end up being a huge effort. I mean if we were to get into all the conspiracy theories I could generate ten right now. Even during 911 passengers were phoning and texting from the planes, you could not stop that even if you had ten hijackers!!! Someone would have done something. IMO: for some reason it crashed and will be found. RIP

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-15 10:08:52 and read 22198 times.

Regarding "shadow" theory, two issues:
- you must be close to another airplane but how close? You cannot be just below since you have to see what over airplane is doing (and what path another airplane is flying is known only by its FMC), otherwise you separate and expose yourself to primary radar. So you have to be behind and below in close proximity to stay shadowed. But if you stay behind, you probably experience heavy turbulence.
- moment of final separation of two planes, how should it be interpreted by ATC when one plane becomes two? Certainly they are not going to land in paired configuration...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 10:10:08 and read 21817 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 226):
if they went slower to preserve fuel

This would not actually preserve fuel.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: flyinTLow
Posted 2014-03-15 10:10:41 and read 21758 times.

I haven't read through all post of the previous threads, so my appolagies if this question has been asked before: but does the 777 have chemical oxygen generators for the cabin or oxygen bottles. That might also be a hint on how to get the cabin incapacitated...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-15 10:12:37 and read 21513 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 223):
It has been confirmed that the aircraft that turned around was MH370, unless you suspect a cover-up of another aircraft flying erratically at those levels around IGARI in the dead of night.

Unless you have different information. The info I have says the plane that crossed over Malaysia was not confirmed to be (positively ID'ed) as MH370 but suspected to be.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-15 10:12:44 and read 21518 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 220):
The radar returns analyzed or not do NOT confirm it is MH370. It is not confirmed but suspected.

By cross comparison with the satellite data:

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 104):
Today, based on raw satellite data that was obtained from the satellite data service provider, we can confirm that the aircraft shown in the primary radar data was flight MH370. After much forensic work and deliberation, the FAA, NTSB, AAIB and the Malaysian authorities, working separately on the same data, concur.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-15 10:13:15 and read 21517 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 7):
This, and also what about the moment they finally separated? ATC observing one plane becoming two would be feeling strange about it.

If they were over an ATC/country that expected them, then nobody would be surprised or care that the one blip/return became two.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 11):
To the poster in the previous thread about using a GPS from your car, it won't work due to the speed of the aircraft, you car doesn't usually travel at 800 kph and the limitations of an automotive GPS would never be able to update fast enough.

Actually, for purposes of pointing you towards a city, it works quite just fine, even at 800kph. It's capable of showing you where you are at and in what direction you are traveling, and you can find the city of interest on it. That's all you need.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 178):
I thought about a scenario like that myself, but wouldn't it be picked up on the other planes TCAS? Or does the transponder need to be on for TCAS to work?

See part 25, this was discussed last night.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 193):
Even if it made it to Pakistan, how the heck are you going to get around India without them noticing? There weren't even any Pakistanis on the flight?

see part 25, one possible and plausible option (shadowing another flight so as to fly in on their radar/transponder signature) was discussed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-15 10:13:37 and read 21592 times.

Quoting JettTracer (Reply 212):
Another thing - possibility of the flight intercepted and landed in Diego Garcia?
Quoting Norlander (Reply 80):
If you want to take it to a secluded and secure location Diego Garcia is the only one that fits the bill ...

Why is anyone even giving this any credence? JettTracer's suggestion would result in a propaganda coup for the US, and we would trumpet that as much as we could. Norlander's suggestion is absurd -- do you think the thousands of US and UK military personnel wouldn't have noticed a strange new aircraft showing up?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-15 10:14:39 and read 21280 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 223):
It has been confirmed that the aircraft that turned around was MH370, unless you suspect a cover-up of another aircraft flying erratically at those levels around IGARI in the dead of night.

Unless you have different information. The info I have says the plane that crossed over Malaysia was not confirmed to be (positively ID'ed) as MH370 but suspected to be.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-15 10:16:34 and read 21072 times.

I think a recap of known facts and then some possibilities. We know:

- ACARS and the plane's transponder were turned off / disabled. The Malay PM described these as deliberate acts.
- The plane turned to a new flight path after ceasing all communication. The subsequent routing has been described as deliberate and not as the consquence of break up of the plane or break down of systems.
- Radar blips and other data available have been studied by the FAA, NTSB and AAIB as well as the Malay authorities and all of them (working independently) say that the radar blips were MH370 as it flew back over the Malay peninsular and into the Malacca Strait.
- The plane flew from 1:07 am to at least 8:10 am (all Malaysian time) based on attempts to ping Inmarsat's satellites. Further study of available data is being made to determine a more precise location.
- That equates to another seven or so hours flying time.
- Investigators have deduced from data that two potential 'corridors' of flying fit the data tracks, north to potentially the border of Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan or somewhere before there, and south over Indonesia into the souther Indian Ocean.
- Flying across the Indian Ocean to Africa, or Diego Garcia is not in consideration by the investigators.
- We don't know how much fuel was on board and whether the suggested flying time was essentially as far as it could go.
- We don't know what was in the hold, and some reports have said that some cargo was not screened.
- There is no Iranian connection reported other than the two folk alledgedly seeking asylum on false passports.
- The Malays say that only now are they searching the flight deck crews homes (only the Captain mentioned so far).
- The investigators are leading us to assume, without saying so explicitly, that this was a hijack. We don't know if the flight deck crew were in on that.
- No debris, anywhere, has been sighted - the initial search areas have been well covered, but also no other debris has been reported as even possible anywhere (although some possibilities in terms of the potential corridors are very remote). Even planes such as AF447 that hit the sea intact left a lot of debris.
- Most importantly, still, we don't know the fate of the 237 people on board. This must be excrutiating if you are close to any of them.

If, as we're lead to believe, it is a highjacking then I do not believe it is a suicidal mission. Highjackers have demands and usually their wish is to live to see their demands met. So let's assume this is not a suicide mission by the crew, nor a 911 like event in the immediacy (since there hasn't been one, yet). It must relate then to another demand that we're yet to learn of or hasn't yet been made. Alternatively as some have suggested, it is a theft - there is someone, something or something else on the plane that is so valuable to someone or some organization as to plan and execute this event. Perhaps it is people or cargo, or even the plane itself to use in another way. Either way, this must have taken considerable planning and execution capability as to not be an act of a rogue group (in the sense of individual lunatics), but a well resourced and capable group. Further, that surprises me in that no 'chatter' has been picked up - or at least we don't know that either.

The magnitude of some of the possibilities is mind blowing, I bet that intelligence agencies the world over are drinking a lot of coffee at the moment. Even if it is a theft, probably the least worrisome outcome, that still leaves the people and covering up the location of the aircraft - and that implies a large network of support, even to state level.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 10:17:22 and read 21050 times.

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 226):
Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. Is that possible?

It might be barely possible in terms of fuel. But they would have wasted nearly 1 hours worth of fuel in the Gulf of Thailand when they should have just tracked west.

Practically speaking however, I find there is basically 0% chance they could have pulled that route off. Too many countries have Radar that would have picked them up. India, China, Pakistan and let's forget USAF is still watching airspace above and near Afghanistan. Plus bases I think in Kyrgyzstan. That's fairly well monitored air space and you would not be able to shadow another plane that entire route.

I am almost certain they headed south west. To the remotest part of the Indian Ocean they could reach.

Anyone called the Australians to search out way west of Perth?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-15 10:18:14 and read 20888 times.

I don't know if it's been discussed or mentioned before but there's a picture of this aircraft's flight deck on wikipedia (from the Airliners.net gallery), in the article about the event.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Malay...rlines/Boeing-777-2H6-ER/0561319/L

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2014-03-15 10:18:40 and read 20978 times.

Those mystery runways in China are very strange. The longest runway looks like 3km long, certainly enough for a 777. I wonder if the Chinese military is still using or monitoring these sites or if they are abandoned. But why go there, why do all of this? I can only think for publicity reasons, and to bring the world's attention to their cause. This drags it out and attracts more attention than a simple hijacking. Another possibility might be that the Chinese are hiding something. Maybe there was someone important on that flight (military intelligence or something like that).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-15 10:18:45 and read 20725 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 237):
Perhaps it is people or cargo, or even the plane itself to use in another way

Yeah anyone know what was in the holds other than Li batteries?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 10:21:13 and read 20658 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 236):
Unless you have different information. The info I have says the plane that crossed over Malaysia was not confirmed to be (positively ID'ed) as MH370 but suspected to be.

They were picked up at IGARI at FL350, which almost perfectly coincides with MH370's last SSR contact.

With the SATCOM info, it is guaranteed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-15 10:23:13 and read 20360 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 229):
Regarding "shadow" theory, two issues:
- you must be close to another airplane but how close? You cannot be just below since you have to see what over airplane is doing (and what path another airplane is flying is known only by its FMC), otherwise you separate and expose yourself to primary radar. So you have to be behind and below in close proximity to stay shadowed. But if you stay behind, you probably experience heavy turbulence.
- moment of final separation of two planes, how should it be interpreted by ATC when one plane becomes two? Certainly they are not going to land in paired configuration...

Pretty close. We're talking a bit of precision flying, for sure; but it's entirely possible.

Keep in mind that we aren't talking "shadow" in the sense of the other aircraft blocking the radar radio energy, we are only talking about flying close enough that a single blip/return appears on radar. The radar will fully be exposed to the return energy from both aircraft, but they are so close that the radar can not resolve them as two separate returns.

If you are over your destination (say it's Iran for purpose of this example) and the folks there EXPECT to see a separation, then they won't care. Or maybe you're in an area with no radar coverage. If you've planned the mission out this far, then you quite possibly could pick a good place to separate.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-15 10:25:18 and read 20044 times.

The only thing that doesn't work for the 'shadow theory' is, what if either of the flights got delayed? That's one hell of a risk.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: gobeyond
Posted 2014-03-15 10:28:30 and read 19582 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 237):

Slinky09 great recap!

But why are we still stuck on conspiracies? Here is one: All the passengers were contracted actors and ATC was included. The plane never took off but a drone did (hence SATCOM ping). The plane in question is still in a hangar at Kuala Lumpur. With a fairly small crew of approx 500 actors a mass world event is staged to get everybody's minds off of other news?

Fat chance!

Sorry, but I would rather stick to the experts. Everything we discuss and more with more info and brilliant minds is being looked at right now in a number of organisations with resources that you and I will never even consider or see. We can hypothesize but I don't think there is anything to add to SA7700's summary here.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-15 10:30:29 and read 19257 times.

Quoting gobeyond (Reply 245):
Sorry, but I would rather stick to the experts. Everything we discuss and more with more info and brilliant minds is being looked at right now in a number of organisations with resources that you and I will never even consider or see. We can hypothesize but I don't think there is anything to add to SA7700's summary here.

Absolutely, as I said, there's likely a lot of coffee being drunk somewhere. But then this is a forum and theories interest the brain!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: Clancy
Posted 2014-03-15 10:31:40 and read 19241 times.

First time poster here and glad to join such a remarkable aviation lovers' community.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 238):

Yeah, and what you said is one of the problem of the theory that Uyghur terrorists took over the plane for the purpose of carrying further attacks.

Also, the history of attacks carried out by Uyghur terrorists suggested that they are hardly capable of pulling off something of such magnitude.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-15 10:31:43 and read 20746 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue the discussion in part 26 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)


Thanks and regards,

SA7700


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