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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-17 13:35:32 and read 62815 times.

Due to length part 32 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 33:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

**********************************************************************************************


**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

***********************************************************************************************


SOME IMPORTANT REMINDERS FOR ALL OUR MEMBERS TO CONSIDER BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD:

**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to past / current movies or possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

**** PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT QUESTIONS AND SCENARIOS THAT HAS BEEN COVERED AND DISCUSSED IN PREVIOUS THREADS AND WHICH DO NOT CONTRIBUTE OR APPLY, IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER, TOWARDS THIS CONVERSATION ANY LONGER. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

**** PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL TOWARDS OTHER USERS AND KEEP THE FORUM RULES AND REGULATIONS IN MIND WHEN POSTING IN THE FORUMS. SHOULD THERE BE ANY RULE VIOLATIONS, PLEASE BRING THIS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE MODERATORS BY MAKING USE OF THE “SUGGEST DELETION FUNCTION”. ****

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Please check out the sanity check by [ rcair1 ]: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)


Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,
Pat

[Edited 2014-03-17 13:36:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-17 13:40:04 and read 62923 times.

From previous thread:

Quoting EC135 (Reply 247):
The aircraft is in my opinion sitting in one piece on the ground on a remote field in the Turkmenistan or Pakistan area covered with camouflage and waiting to be used in terrorist attack e.g. as a dirty bomb

This would indicate that the pilot and/or co-pilot would have to have some sort of connection to a terrorist cell or they were forced to land the plane somewhere. This also means they will be forced to carry out the remainder of the mission as I highly doubt any terrorist org has a type rated 777 pilot just hanging out. It's one thing to steer a plane already in flight, it's another to be responsible for all phases of flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 13:41:21 and read 62869 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 255):
I have read arguments for and against both the "northern route" and the "southern route" - but, I must admit, each day that the SaR efforts bring up no evidence of debris or wreckage from the Indian Ocean, the more I feel that plane took the northern route and was flown by someone who was very, very skilled and very, very familiar with international boundaries, ATC designated boundaries, and radar avoidance techniques. Just stunning.

It's a big lake. And deep.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-17 13:41:37 and read 62866 times.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 247):
Definitely not, you won't need to do all this just for flying towards the Indian Ocean and running out of fuel....

I think the hijacker just did his best to make sure the aircraft wouldn't be found, possibly due to shame / insurance money. Disabling transponder & avoiding radar contact was clearly a good way to make things a lot more difficult for investigators.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 247):
In all other scenarios the very very well planned action to make this a/c disappear would make no sense at all.

Who knows was it that well planned or not? I think either of the pilots / possibly some other crew member just flew the aircraft into the Indian Ocean (after first doing some maneuvering to avoid radar contact) and pointed the nose down when it had flown far enough / ran out of fuel.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 247):
Turkmenistan or Pakistan area covered with camouflage and waiting to be used in terrorist attack e.g. as a dirty bomb.

How many times this has happened in history? 0.

How many times pilot suicide has happened? Many times. That's why it's more likely.

A group capable of doing this shouldn't lack money to obtain a jetliner through other, safer and less risky ways. They could just buy some old wreck under a fake company name.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: mafi29
Posted 2014-03-17 13:41:50 and read 62854 times.

it was one of the last posts on the previous thread:

What about the contrail of the aircraft? Shouldn't it be visible on images from meteorological satellites? At least in the infra red channels (as it was night)?

Sorry if it has bee discussed befor, but I haven't read all post of all the 32 threads... And a quick serch did not yield any results.

Thanks for your thoughts

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-17 13:42:13 and read 62731 times.

Another thread. I wonder which number will be the last for this topic...

[Edited 2014-03-17 13:44:20]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: KL577
Posted 2014-03-17 13:45:41 and read 62657 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 2):

Quoting Trin (Reply 255):
I have read arguments for and against both the "northern route" and the "southern route" - but, I must admit, each day that the SaR efforts bring up no evidence of debris or wreckage from the Indian Ocean, the more I feel that plane took the northern route and was flown by someone who was very, very skilled and very, very familiar with international boundaries, ATC designated boundaries, and radar avoidance techniques. Just stunning.

It's a big lake. And deep.

They spent two years finding AF447 searching in a 100 km by 100 km block of sea. Chances of finding MH370 are negligible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: airplane
Posted 2014-03-17 13:45:58 and read 62658 times.

Now that the situation has become an illicit interference, the authorities won't inform if they know that the plane landed since it will become a rescue operation for the passengers and crew as well as persut those responsible. Publicizing that the plane landed may threat the rescue and life of all the passengers and crew

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-17 13:47:23 and read 62452 times.

Quoting mafi29 (Reply 4):
What about the contrail of the aircraft? Shouldn't it be visible on images from meteorological satellites? At least in the infra red channels (as it was night)?

Was thinking about the same today. I doubt though there are a lot of satellites monitoring middle of Indian ocean, since there are really not a lot of possible consumers of that information. Google Maps for instance gives appropriate resolution only of those small islands and nothing around...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DrivesForShow
Posted 2014-03-17 13:47:38 and read 62545 times.

Quoting airplane (Reply 7):
Publicizing that the plane landed may threat the rescue and life of all the passengers and crew

SEAL Team 6 might be moving in as we speak...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-17 13:47:57 and read 62536 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 178):
Now, mandala, I have another question for you: I have heard that the outflow valves will not allow cabin altitude to drop below 14000ft as long as bleed air is working. Can you confirm or deny that? Is it possible to completely depressurize the aircraft without turning off in the "inflow" (don't know the jargon) ? If so, wouldn't the flight deck and cabin quickly grow incredibly cold? Or do you think intentional decompression is a valid hypothesis?

Turn pressurization to manual, open the valves... it will depressurize... Wanna make it quicker, just turn off the bleeds too (inflow)... Just pressing a few buttons... the longer button is the outflow valve in manual... 

Mandala499

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 13:48:30 and read 62314 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 3):
I think the hijacker just did his best to make sure the aircraft wouldn't be found, possibly due to shame / insurance money. Disabling transponder & avoiding radar contact was clearly a good way to make things a lot more difficult for investigators.

WRT shame, there is a huge stigma of mental illness in many societies. Not sure if this applies in Malaysia, but if present then this could supply sufficient motivation for a would-be suicidal pilot to try to cover his tracks. In my mind this is a far more powerful motivator than finances.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: travelhound
Posted 2014-03-17 13:51:25 and read 62176 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 5):
Another thread. I wonder which number will be the last for this topic...

Oh, the intrigue of it all!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-17 13:53:05 and read 62105 times.

From the previous thread:

"TWA800 accident had so many theories and news breaking for every theory, but no one guessed the actual reason and there are quite a few who don't want to buy the official story."

This is true, but I think you're getting the parallels between these incidents backwards.

In the TWA 800 accident, we initially had the FBI involved looking at it as a criminal case. When they found no evidence of criminality, they fairly quickly called it an accident investigation and handed it over to the NTSB. (IIRC, this happened within a matter of a week or two.) The NTSB then investigated it as an accident. Many people never came around to believing it was an accident despite all the evidence, because they were stuck on believing what it looked like initially.

In this incident, we initially had the Malaysians and everyone else searching in the South China Sea for the wreckage of an accident. Many people compared it to AF447. The initial theory was that the plane went down for mechanical or other reasons somewhere near where it "lost" contact. Later, evidence emerged that it was deliberately hidden during flight and flown out of the area. A criminal case was opened, and the investigation "refocused" on the passengers and crew.

As in the TWA 800 accident, many people cannot accept that the theory they initially believed to be true is not. That's the parallel to TWA 800, and it's a big part of what's at work here. But you have to follow where the evidence points you, not try to look for evidence that supports your theory.

Even if more evidence comes to light implicating deliberate action by someone - and even if we find the plane and all the FDR tells us is that it was under human input until it ran out of fuel and crashed - there are probably always going to be people who believe the cause of this incident was some sort of mechanical anomaly, because that was their initial belief and no amount of circumstantial evidence could ever convince them otherwise.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 13:53:07 and read 62076 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
Turn pressurization to manual, open the valves... it will depressurize... Wanna make it quicker, just turn off the bleeds too (inflow)... Just pressing a few buttons... the longer button is the outflow valve in manual...

Assuming this would create a state of equilibrium with the ambient atmosphere, then would the internal temperature drop to match that of the outside?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 13:59:21 and read 61593 times.

From previous thread:

Quoting EC135 (Reply 247):
Definitely not, you won't need to do all this just for flying towards the Indian Ocean and running out of fuel.... the northern scenario is much more likely. The aircraft is in my opinion sitting in one piece on the ground on a remote field in the Turkmenistan or Pakistan area covered with camouflage and waiting to be used in terrorist attack e.g. as a dirty bomb. In all other scenarios the very very well planned action to make this a/c disappear would make no sense at all.

But there seem to be some many easier ways by which to acquire a plane sufficient to deliver such a device.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-17 14:01:19 and read 61450 times.

Is there any precedent set for hijackers turning off the transponder and disabling ACARS to avoid detection? As previously stated, this seems like it would require deep knowledge of the aircraft.

Also, would a commercial pilot be able to evade radar detection without any prior study of the area? These two questions would further point to a pilot(s) hijack/suicide theory. Thanks

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: silentbob
Posted 2014-03-17 14:04:13 and read 61155 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 15):
But there seem to be some many easier ways by which to acquire a plane sufficient to deliver such a device.

I don't know, it looks like they may have pulled this one off on the first try.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: casinterest
Posted 2014-03-17 14:10:49 and read 60699 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 16):
Is there any precedent set for hijackers turning off the transponder and disabling ACARS to avoid detection? As previously stated, this seems like it would require deep knowledge of the aircraft.

I would think it would just involve reading the AF threads here on airliners to get an idea.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 16):
Also, would a commercial pilot be able to evade radar detection without any prior study of the area? These two questions would further point to a pilot(s) hijack/suicide theory. Thanks

Possibly, but it seems really far out there for either of these at the moment, but then again the Egypt Air crash never made much sense either.


I still wonder if maybe there was a failure of the onboard systems, and perhaps as a last conscious effort the pilots somehow pulled up a previous routing within the computer that might explain how and why the plane may have kept flying on such precise waypoints as reported earlier.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: EC135
Posted 2014-03-17 14:13:03 and read 60522 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 15):
But there seem to be some many easier ways by which to acquire a plane sufficient to deliver such a device.

But not if you need a long-haul a/c reaching far locations nonstop... e.g. Turkmenistan to USA

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DrivesForShow
Posted 2014-03-17 14:15:50 and read 60387 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 15):
But there seem to be some many easier ways by which to acquire a plane sufficient to deliver such a device.

Not one that could potentially reach the US from the Middle East.

If it's in Turkmenistan (or that general region), without cargo - besides the hypothetical weapon - and no passangers, could it make it to New York? If it did follow another plane to avoid radar detection (like I mentioned in part 32 with SIA 68) it could do the same on its way to the east coast of the US and peel off at the last second before there is time to react. Also have to keep in mind European/Chinese/etc. targets as well, the US isn't the only country that gets attacked.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: pintail21
Posted 2014-03-17 14:16:27 and read 60213 times.

Some random thoughts about this massive thread so far...

I think suicide is very likely. Go out in a DB Cooper-esque way, maybe get some insurance money for the family, protect them from any shame, legal action or reprisals and maybe even being (falsely) remembered as a hero for stopping a nonexistent terrorist attack. If the Egyptian gov't was so eager to defend their aircrew's obvious suicide maybe the pilot hoped the Malaysians would do the same and he could escape any blame. A lot of the suicide talks here have centered on the irrationality of a complex suicide plot, but I don't think that is correct. Suicide can be considered rational if, in the person's opinion, the pain or future consequences of living outweigh your fear of death or the afterlife, then you can argue the risk/reward equation rationally favors not living anymore. And it would be a convoluted suicide plot, but if you were going to choose murder-suicide versus just offing yourself in a more traditional manner it will be more complicated of a plot anyways, so why not take the triple 7 out for a spin and be famous?

The lack ELT issue is very interesting too. Let's say hypothetically the pilot takes the plane up to FL450 to take out the passengers then sets a course out to the most remote area and crashes there. If he takes off his mask, runs out of O2 or kills himself through other means what happens to the plane? The autopilot probably keeps trucking on the last heading/route and runs out of gas. The altitude hold mode probably holds the altitude until the stall (or is there other stall protection?), the stick pusher presumably noses the plane nose over to avoid the stall, will it kick the http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...J&sjid=bAUNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5133,904681

http://footnote1.com/the-drug-war-mo...fluence-in-africa-grows-in-africa/

As far as comparing this to Katrina or Haiti, there is a huge difference between having a major city completely inaccessible due to flooding, downed wires and trees cutting off all but helicopter and small boat access, or going into a completely devastated 3rd world country with one single runway airport that normally saw 30 flights a day triple their capacity to 100 flights a day while being run from a tent on the airfield, and government officials playing "I have a secret", refusing to get help from technical experts and sending search crews thousands of miles in the wrong direction. The may be trying their hardest, but if I go down in the Indian ocean or Gulf of Thailand without an operable beacon I have zero confidence in any of the host nation SAR assets finding me before I wash up on shore.

If you want to talk about foreign intel plots around Iran, there is no way that is possible. The Iranian intel services are a completely joke. Inside Iran where they can tap into everything and have complete government support they can be tough to crack, but outside the country? The whole Mexican cartel/kill a congressman debacle from a few years back and the bungled bombing attempt in Thailand shows that they aren't exactly KGB level. The stakes of pissing off China are too high. Terrorist organizations are also getting so dismantled I doubt we'll see another successful complex, coordinated attack. Go shoot up a soft target like an African mall, set off some car bombs, get a few lone wolf attacks? Absolutely. Sneak a dozen operatives in a country, get them training, logistical support, scout targets, etc? VERY doubtful. Plus it is well known in open source media that the taliban and AQ are almost broke. Bombing innocent civilians and not the western satans tends to piss off the locals and the rich donors. Staging fuel, bribing airline and airport and government officials, getting radar coverage data, etc is pretty tough to keep quiet. That's a lot of tracks to cover and a ton of money to carry it out, so I think a cartel is more likely to acquire a plane, not terrorists.

[Edited 2014-03-17 14:25:57]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-17 14:22:08 and read 59685 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 9):
SEAL Team 6 might be moving in as we speak...

lets hope so!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-17 14:23:08 and read 59721 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 20):
If it's in Turkmenistan (or that general region), without cargo - besides the hypothetical weapon - and no passangers, could it make it to New York

It could yes with some margin as well. 772ER MTOW range is around 7700nm.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ASB-LGA&MS=wls&DU=nm&SG=.84&SU=mach

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gobeyond
Posted 2014-03-17 14:23:08 and read 59705 times.

Well we might as well send up a satellite just to search for this one aircraft. Practically half the globe needs to be looked at. And the amount of resources expended on the search are just as incredible.
It definitely does not want to be found!!! If this is an accident it is the Chernobyl of aviation with so many things that would have to go wrong...Maybe a stray black whole is easier to explain..
Wow, just for clarity if the passengers were somehow kept alive as ransom, we are looking at almost two weeks of feeding hundreds of people...Just saying

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-17 14:23:43 and read 61551 times.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 18):
I would think it would just involve reading the AF threads here on airliners to get an idea.

I don't think AF 447 was a precedent. They knew AF 447 had gone down because they had spotted floating debris by the 5th day. They also had a wealth of data in the form of ACARS messages signalling airspeed problems; autopilot shutdown etc. Pilot suidice or Hijacking was way down on the list of possibilities.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-17 14:25:27 and read 61725 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 9):

how the heck did you join this forum in 1969?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dampfnudel
Posted 2014-03-17 14:25:47 and read 63649 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 3):
How many times this has happened in history? 0.

How many times pilot suicide has happened? Many times. That's why it's more likely.

A group capable of doing this shouldn't lack money to obtain a jetliner through other, safer and less risky ways. They could just buy some old wreck under a fake company name.

Pilot suicide is most likely in this situation, but just because something never happened before doesn't rule it out happening in the future. So I'll say what I perhaps would have said twenty years ago if someone brought up the possibility of terrorists using hijacked aircraft to bring down two of the tallest buildings in the world (which I witnessed personally). It's unlikely, but I can't rule out the possibility of it happening. Meanwhile, I look at the skies over New York with a little apprehension since the disappearance of MH370.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-17 14:26:02 and read 63945 times.

The suicide theories go down the toilet when combined with the theory that the rapid ascent to 45,000 was to kill the passengers, then fly wound for 7 hours with 237 dead bodies! that is creepy and pointless, and just doesn't make sense. The United States has an interest in this, and redeploying the U.S.S. Kidd outside of the scope of the search operation tells us that the government knows more than they are telling us.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 14:28:34 and read 63108 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 26):
how the heck did you join this forum in 1969?

Google localtime(0).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: imatams
Posted 2014-03-17 14:29:38 and read 63624 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 20):
If it's in Turkmenistan (or that general region), without cargo - besides the hypothetical weapon - and no passangers, could it make it to New York? If it did follow another plane to avoid radar detection (like I mentioned in part 32 with SIA 68) it could do the same on its way to the east coast of the US and peel off at the last second before there is time to react. Also have to keep in mind European/Chinese/etc. targets as well, the US isn't the only country that gets attacked.

Folks, Tom Clancy is dead..

-"Picking up" SQ 68 would have required up-to-the-minute planning that could have been ruined by the smallest of delays in Singapore, or enroute.
- If they were to pick up 'any' Europe-bound flight that would mean knowing routes and destinations of tons of flight numbers, and happening to find one of those on TCAS (wich is not long range)
- They might have escaped detection that way on military radar initially, but it would have clearly shown up by anyone reviewing radar data,which i'm sury every country involved has been doing. A 777 is not a steath bomber!
- Visual: If they want to fly to the US / Europe they would have to fly through the VERY busy European airspace and transatlantic tracks. The chance of a 777 piggy-backing another aircraft not being spotted visually by other aircraft would be minimal.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 747WanSui
Posted 2014-03-17 14:30:58 and read 63140 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 26):

That's simply a technical error on the forum's part.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 28):

I think the 45000 figure is likely inaccurate. In the Brazilian mid-air collision in 2006, the corporate jet appeared to be changing height erratically on primary radar when it was in fact constantly flying at a specific height - this was the result of primary radar being less than 100% accurate with respect to actual height.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: giopan1975
Posted 2014-03-17 14:32:07 and read 62674 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 28):
The suicide theories go down the toilet when combined with the theory that the rapid ascent to 45,000 was to kill the passengers, then fly wound for 7 hours with 237 dead bodies! that is creepy and pointless, and just doesn't make sense.

Dont try find logic in a mentally ill (in the suicide scenario).

In the steal-a-777-scenario it would make absolute scense not wanting to have any distraction from the back at all for the remaining 6 hrs of flying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 14:32:17 and read 62623 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 28):
The suicide theories go down the toilet when combined with the theory that the rapid ascent to 45,000 was to kill the passengers, then fly wound for 7 hours with 237 dead bodies! that is creepy and pointless, and just doesn't make sense. The United States has an interest in this, and redeploying the U.S.S. Kidd outside of the scope of the search operation tells us that the government knows more than they are telling us.

If you consider the possibility of a mass murder-suicide reminiscent of Columbine etc then the creepy and pointless side of things suddenly has precedent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-17 14:35:11 and read 62397 times.

Quoting gobeyond (Reply 24):
Well we might as well send up a satellite just to search for this one aircraft.

There are more than enough satellites looking for this. The US by itself probably has complete global coverage. I bet Russia and China are there too.

Quoting gobeyond (Reply 24):
Wow, just for clarity if the passengers were somehow kept alive as ransom, we are looking at almost two weeks of feeding hundreds of people...Just saying

If they were being held for ransom we probably would have heard something. Not to mention I doubt the passengers are being fed if they were being held. Obviously their well being isn't important to whoever did this.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 28):
The suicide theories go down the toilet when combined with the theory that the rapid ascent to 45,000 was to kill the passengers, then fly wound for 7 hours with 237 dead bodies! that is creepy and pointless,

It's creepy, even if he swiftly killed them by crashing into the ocean. Pointless though not necessarily. Maybe if it was a simple crash into the ocean whoever was at the controls didn't want to passengers to suffer. Rather peacefully die. On the other hand if it was taken and flown somewhere it meant nobody interfering with their plan.
Pat

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-17 14:41:25 and read 61561 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 28):
The suicide theories go down the toilet when combined with the theory that the rapid ascent to 45,000 was to kill the passengers, then fly wound for 7 hours with 237 dead bodies! that is creepy and pointless, and just doesn't make sense. The United States has an interest in this, and redeploying the U.S.S. Kidd outside of the scope of the search operation tells us that the government knows more than they are telling us.

am thinking in the same direction, some people knew what happened, I feel Malaysian gvt in the dark, certain people are sorting this mess quietly and they may even sending and leaking false infos to steer away people from what they are doing, even as new joiners to a.net to change discussions toward suicide or other things

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-17 14:41:32 and read 61988 times.

QUESTION (At the Risk of getting voted out of this forum):

Are we 100% confident that there could not have been some mechanical failure (or chain of events) that caused this highly improbable chain of events. I am concerned that we are all down the "terrorist/rogue pilot" rabbit holes and have perhaps missed some other explanation which should still be on the table and subject to further discussion.

Perhaps as a sanity check it would make sense to make a list of the few "facts" that we have that take the mechanical failure option completely off the table.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-17 14:41:50 and read 61828 times.

I think the passengers were deprived of oxygen to prevent them from interfering from a later plan that did not include suicide.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-17 14:44:34 and read 61241 times.

Quoting pintail21 (Reply 21):
I think suicide is very likely. Go out in a DB Cooper-esque way, maybe get some insurance money for the family,

There is absolutely no way any insurance company would pay out any policy in the present circumstances- they would wait to ensure beyond a likely doubt that pilot suicide was not in play here first.

Do the Malaysian authorities know whether any life insurance policies were taken out recently by either the pilot or the co-pilot? If so, that doesn't necessarily point to guilt but would be important to know in terms of pursuing further leads.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-17 14:45:29 and read 61197 times.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 34):
There are more than enough satellites looking for this. The US by itself probably has complete global coverage. I bet Russia and China are there too.

  

Yep, and you've gotta wonder just how much intense satellite scrutiny there is currently over areas such as India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan etc.etc. Would be very interesting if they turned up some other 'things of interest' during this search for MH370.....of course, then again, they have probably already scrutinized that area pretty good.

But you can definitely rest assured that the U.S., China, and any other nation with satellites that are remotely 'friendly' will be looking for this plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: md11sdf
Posted 2014-03-17 14:45:51 and read 61524 times.

Several threads ago, the Pilot's Facebook page was quoted. It would seem that he was very active in the opposition party.
I read everything that was posted here and found it quite relevant to what is happening. I have been watching coverage on all of the American News Networks (except Al Jazeera) and have heard......... Not a single mention of it.

It has been asked "If you are a terrorist group and you want to do a 9/11 style attack, why not just go out and buy some older airliners that are in storage?" Good question. Simple answer. A solid paper trail that would lead straight back to the purchaser. Even if they are a "front-Group" for the terrorists. A "stolen" aircraft, repainted and with what appears to be a valid squak and flight-number is not going to attract so much attention.

To this day, there are some who claim this HAD to be an "inflight fire that incapacitated everyone and the plane was on auto pilot until it ran out of fuel". REALLY? Did anyone else read the Malaysian newspaper account of the aircraft flying low and around high terrain so ground based radars wouldn't spot it?

This action was carried out with magnificent precision and I'm among those who believe it was the passengers were not needed as "hostages" (we would have heard their demands a week ago) and the long range capability of the aircraft is really what this organisation needed. Odds are (I am very sorry for all families) the passengers are gone from this earth.

A hobby of mine has been looking at areas of the former Soviet Union using Google Maps/Earth satellite views. There were remote military airbases all over the place. Most of which are abandoned today. Some even have intact aircraft rotting on the pads and ramps. THAT would be the place to land and refuel. (assets waiting already).
Many have scoffed at the theories of this being like something from a James Bond film, with a SPECTRE master-mind and 250 "henchmen" working out a devilish plan. Everything I've read and seen thus far supports THAT more than "suicide in the Indian Ocean". The plane flew for seven hours after it broke off it's original flight-plan.

I just fear that this well financed and thorough group does not have their hands on a former Pakistani Nuclear weapon.
The world has not been brought to it's knees by a massive terrorist action in a long time, but I fear it's coming...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: giopan1975
Posted 2014-03-17 14:47:17 and read 61061 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 36):
Are we 100% confident that there could not have been some mechanical failure (or chain of events) that caused this highly improbable chain of events. I am concerned that we are all down the "terrorist/rogue pilot" rabbit holes and have perhaps missed some other explanation which should still be on the table and subject to further discussion.

There are very strong indications that the plane changed course after human intervention in the cockpit with all other factors unchanged. At least this is what we are being served by global media over the past days.

Havent you listened to Malaysia PM speech?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-17 14:50:10 and read 60389 times.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 34):
Quoting gobeyond (Reply 24):
Well we might as well send up a satellite just to search for this one aircraft.

There are more than enough satellites looking for this. The US by itself probably has complete global coverage. I bet Russia and China are there too.

Global imagery acquisition isn't the issue, but finding qualified analysts to scour the globe is where the rub occurs.

Quote:
Quoting davidzill (Reply 28):
The suicide theories go down the toilet when combined with the theory that the rapid ascent to 45,000 was to kill the passengers, then fly wound for 7 hours with 237 dead bodies! that is creepy and pointless,

Creepy? Maybe, but it isn't anywhere close slamming perfectly good aircraft, full of innocent people into skyscrapers, also filled with innocent people.

As to aimlessly flying around for 7 hours, if this were a suicide attempt, the person in control of the aircraft may have had second thoughts after killing the passengers, hence flying around contemplating their next move.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-17 14:53:29 and read 60168 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 28):
The suicide theories go down the toilet when combined with the theory that the rapid ascent to 45,000 was to kill the passengers, then fly wound for 7 hours with 237 dead bodies! that is creepy and pointless, and just doesn't make sense. The United States has an interest in this, and redeploying the U.S.S. Kidd outside of the scope of the search operation tells us that the government knows more than they are telling us.

Many of us have come up with several logical theories for pilot suicide, and some of you people just keep coming back with .... "it doesn't make sense" .... that's all you guys say.

As far as the USS Kidd, they have just announced they are ending their search operation, likely because they don't believe it's in the Andaman Sea, and the stress on personnel and equipment is probably beginning. In addition, I believe that the Australians are joining the search because, as I believe, there is more and more evidence that this plane went down in the Southern Indian Ocean. Australia is close and the ships involved would be fresh with regard to equipment and personnel.

Again, as I asked a few days ago, I think it would be very interesting to see what the ocean currents are like off the west coast of Australia ... What if those currents head toward Antarctica. Regardless, I think some debris will wash up somewhere at some point, which will put to rest the fears the plane could be used as a weapon sometime in the future.

[Edited 2014-03-17 15:04:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: giopan1975
Posted 2014-03-17 14:54:12 and read 60108 times.

Why not commit suicide by causing suffocation to all aboard including yourself by going up to 45000ft, manage to set autopilot before fainting, plane crashes after fuel starvation?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: mt99
Posted 2014-03-17 14:55:17 and read 59904 times.

Ok stupid question: Can Flight Data Recorder and Voice Recorder be "turned off" in flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: casinterest
Posted 2014-03-17 14:56:57 and read 59547 times.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 25):

I don't think AF 447 was a precedent. They knew AF 447 had gone down because they had spotted floating debris by the 5th day. They also had a wealth of data in the form of ACARS messages signalling airspeed problems; autopilot shutdown etc. Pilot suidice or Hijacking was way down on the list of possibilities.

I wasn't trying to imply a precedent. I was just posting the idea that a lot of information on how to track those planes and how the ACARS worked were presented there. If anyone was trying to make the plane "Invisible" there was a lot of source material on where to start looking to make it happen.

At this point, we still don't know what occurred on this plane. Unless a document has been left somewhere laying claim to a plot with willing actors, we won't know until we find the plane and the black boxes. The worst part would be not having the CVR, if the plane flew on for a few hours more.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Bthebest
Posted 2014-03-17 14:57:27 and read 59621 times.

Regarding the Satellite Pings, would be useful to have data from previous pings and cross-reference with possible locations.

For example, a few hours earlier the satellite would have been further North or South. As it has been indicated it received hourly pings, surely this could exclude either Northern or Southern arcs as they would be beyond the range at that time?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 15:01:00 and read 59266 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 36):
Are we 100% confident that there could not have been some mechanical failure (or chain of events) that caused this highly improbable chain of events.

The problem I have with the mechanical scenario is if a pilot is still conscious after the catastrophic event he would want to fly it close to a major airport and then circle hoping to somehow get it on the ground. If it could not maintain pressure altitude due to a gaping hole, he would not cruise back to high altitude. If it could maintain pressure and comms were down he could fly lower over land and instruct passengers to attempt communication.

If the pilot were incapacitated Helios style, but the plane was still flown deliberately, a crew or passenger with some flying experience must be at the controls. Whether that is even remotely possible only the investigators can know.

This morning the news is that ACARS could have gone off at the same instant the transponder went off, both AFTER the last transmission. So a mechanical failure scenario becomes just barely more possible.

One would imagine an expert in mental health in possession of a lot of information from the background of both pilots must by now have a fairly strong opinion on whether the suicide/dramatic lone act scenario is more or less likely than it was a week ago. They should have web browsing history, any personal notes or letters, interviews with friends family and colleagues. None of this is yet made public and may never be.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: n471wn
Posted 2014-03-17 15:01:07 and read 59196 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 45):
Ok stupid question: Can Flight Data Recorder and Voice Recorder be "turned off" in flight?

no.......

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dampfnudel
Posted 2014-03-17 15:01:08 and read 59298 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 35):
am thinking in the same direction, some people knew what happened, I feel Malaysian gvt in the dark, certain people are sorting this mess quietly and they may even sending and leaking false infos to steer away people from what they are doing, even as new joiners to a.net to change discussions toward suicide or other things

I agree. Too many "distractions", have been put out there for the media and public. Oil rig witness, fake passports, satellite image, "seismic ocean floor event" in the South China Sea, lithium batteries, etc. The disappearance of MH370 is perplexing to say the least.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 15:01:11 and read 59147 times.

There were definitely more clues as to where AF 447 was. Not a good measure of how easy it should be to find this thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 15:01:25 and read 58770 times.

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 40):
A hobby of mine has been looking at areas of the former Soviet Union using Google Maps/Earth satellite views. There were remote military airbases all over the place. Most of which are abandoned today. Some even have intact aircraft rotting on the pads and ramps. THAT would be the place to land and refuel. (assets waiting already).
Many have scoffed at the theories of this being like something from a James Bond film, with a SPECTRE master-mind and 250 "henchmen" working out a devilish plan. Everything I've read and seen thus far supports THAT more than "suicide in the Indian Ocean". The plane flew for seven hours after it broke off it's original flight-plan.

Nothing we have seen supports 250 henchmen working for SPECTRE. It's all simply an extrapolation based on absence of evidence otherwise.

It reminds me of what initial speculation as to what the nature of the planet Venus prior to definitive information becoming available. From Earth, all we see of Venus is clouds. What's underneath clouds? A tropical rain forest could be. Therefore, the surface of Venus is a tropical paradise. Observation: we see nothing. Conclusion: it must be beautiful there.

Coming back to MH370. Observation: we lost the plane. Conclusion: it's under the volcano with SPECTRE.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: oly720man
Posted 2014-03-17 15:03:00 and read 58581 times.

Quoting imatams (Reply 30):
-"Picking up" SQ 68 would have required up-to-the-minute planning that could have been ruined by the smallest of delays in Singapore, or enroute.

Even if it did piggyback on SIA68 it would have ended up rather further south than indicated in the Keith Ledgerwood blog, if the Flightaware flightplan for that flight is to be believed.

flightaware.com/live/flight/SIA68/history/20140307/1640Z/WSSS/LEBL

So it would have flown over the coast of Pakistan not further inland over the Himalayas.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-17 15:05:12 and read 58216 times.

Quoting Bthebest (Reply 47):

For example, a few hours earlier the satellite would have been further North or South.

I am not sure but I think the satellite is stationary over the Indian ocean and that the
only geo-data they can get from it is the distance from the satellite.

See these pictures:
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...?id=109874&filename=phpWKhncZ.jpeg
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...?id=109874&filename=phpnIOEWi.jpeg

[Edited 2014-03-17 15:08:17]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-17 15:08:27 and read 58246 times.

CNN states Israel just raised alert level to its highest for its ATC

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-17 15:08:40 and read 57856 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 39):
Yep, and you've gotta wonder just how much intense satellite scrutiny there is currently over areas such as India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan etc.etc. Would be very interesting if they turned up some other 'things of interest' during this search for MH370.....of course, then again, they have probably already scrutinized that area pretty good

That enhances the debate about if who planned this (assumed some organization did, as many people think), was planning to have left a trace or not, and if they were planning to follow the "proper" attack in the next couple of days or not.

Obviously, if they would plan to attack when search was intense in the zone where the 777 lost contact first, they would have very few people (or none at all) watching, but maybe their plan was more "ambitious"

In that other case, with all what we know now, they have all the eyes the world has trying to catch everything abnormal flying. (Maybe even we should warn UFO's now is not good moment to visit Earth).

The "strategy" of painting the aircraft with a new livery, sorry but for me seems rudimentary to say the least.
Now everything under the form of a 777 will be a terrible suspect, and anything that is not fully identified and flightplanned from a standard airport won't have the benefit of the doubt.

Even if the threat was so big and inminent, it might be worth to ground the world 777 fleet.

[Edited 2014-03-17 15:09:40]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: tmcn
Posted 2014-03-17 15:08:50 and read 57847 times.

A question in relation to the black boxes and voice recorders.
Suppose the plane (wrecked) is found, and the voice and data recorders are recovered. Did this aircraft have recorders of the "loop type", meaning only the last 30min are kept on tape. Or will the experts have access to the data in respect of the full flight? If the former, considering the plane might have been in the air for hours after having left its original and intended route, we might never know the full story but only a small part of it...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-17 15:11:23 and read 57634 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 55):
CNN states Israel just raised alert level to its highest for its ATC

That seems like a natural step considering the uncertainty of the current situation. You can bet the US will eventually do the same

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-17 15:13:16 and read 57461 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 55):

CNN states Israel just raised alert level to its highest for its ATC

I wonder how long they will continue to keep the alert levels up, after all it might take quite a while until some parts will be found from the Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 15:18:28 and read 56681 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 54):
I am not sure but I think the satellite is stationary over the Indian ocean

It is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dampfnudel
Posted 2014-03-17 15:19:05 and read 56892 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 58):
That seems like a natural step considering the uncertainty of the current situation. You can bet the US will eventually do the same

I would imagine the Europeans will do the same as well. There also seems to be a scaling back of the search in the Southern Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rolfen
Posted 2014-03-17 15:22:04 and read 56484 times.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 45):
Ok stupid question: Can Flight Data Recorder and Voice Recorder be "turned off" in flight?

No question is a stupid question.
It already happened that they were turned off on purpose, by triggering circuit breakers (forgot the name or flight number of that accident - I think that what followed it was determined to be a pilot suicide, sadly, if my memory serves me well)
I am not sure about the 777, but if I were to make reasonable guesses, I'd say yes, I there is a circuit breaker in the cockpit somewhere that the pilots can use to disable them. That is provided for safety reason (against electrical fire), not for pilots to be able to disable them, but pilots can look it up and find out how to disable them (again, I'm not a 777 specalist).

Quoting n471wn (Reply 49):
no.......

Uh... care to elaborate on that in the light of what I just said above?

[Edited 2014-03-17 15:27:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dampfnudel
Posted 2014-03-17 15:24:00 and read 56301 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 59):

I wonder how long they will continue to keep the alert levels up, after all it might take quite a while until some parts will be found from the Indian Ocean.

Unless they discovered something specific about the aircraft's current/recent status that lead them to issue those alerts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: EC135
Posted 2014-03-17 15:25:16 and read 56384 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 59):
I wonder how long they will continue to keep the alert levels up, after all it might take quite a while until some parts will be found from the Indian Ocean.

Don't you think the Israeli Central Intelligence Agency (Mossad) has more information then published in this forum? I am pretty sure they won't raise the level to its highest if is likely MH370 crashed somewhere in the Indian Ocean...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-17 15:28:53 and read 55845 times.

http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/po...nes-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68

Interesting read....

My apologizes if this has already been posted, but what are you opinions on this theory of MH 370 flying under SQ 68.......

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DrivesForShow
Posted 2014-03-17 15:28:57 and read 55824 times.

I posted about this in the last thread and I just can't get over it:

http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/po...nes-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68

From the article: "I investigated further and plotted the exact coordinates of Singapore Airlines flight number 68’s location at 1815UTC onto the aviation map. I quickly realized that SIA68 was in the immediate vicinity as the missing MH370 flight at precisely the same time. Moreover, SIA68 was en-route on a heading towards the same IGREX waypoint on airway P628 that the Malaysian military radar had shown MH370 headed towards at precisely the same time."

Me again: Being in the same place at the same time and heading in the same direction is a trifecta of coincidence that I can't get past. And unlike most of the other information out there, everyone agrees that MH370 was there at the time in question and heading north in the Andaman Sea - it's as close to fact as anything we "know" right now. Are people really ready to write this off as coincidence? I find it astronomically unlikely.

Couple that with the early report of the plane flying at 29,500 ft (disputable) and the fact that SIA was at 30,000 and these planes would've been inordinately close. SIA 68 would've had no idea, their systems track planes based on transponder info. SIA 68's flight path is eerily parallel to the northern arc. Based on current info, I don't think this theory is much of a reach at all. What exactly the plane is doing right now is another story but it seems fairly likely to me it was intact and following SIA 68 passed Pakistan.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 15:29:55 and read 55671 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 36):
Are we 100% confident that there could not have been some mechanical failure

We are not 100% certain about anything (there's a chance, albeit a very tiny one, that this is all some collective bad dream we're having). 90% for some things? Sure. 95% for some maybe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 15:31:02 and read 55391 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 68):
We are not 100% certain about anything

Sorry. Slight correction. We are 100% certain it did not get to PEK on time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-17 15:31:40 and read 55497 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 1):
The aircraft is in my opinion sitting in one piece on the ground on a remote field in the Turkmenistan or Pakistan area covered with camouflage and waiting to be used in terrorist attack e.g. as a dirty bomb

This would indicate that the pilot and/or co-pilot would have to have some sort of connection to a terrorist cell or they were forced to land the plane somewhere. This also means they will be forced to carry out the remainder of the mission as I highly doubt any terrorist org has a type rated 777 pilot just hanging out. It's one thing to steer a plane already in flight, it's another to be responsible for all phases of flight.

That's a little tom clancy-esq don't you think? How exactly could they have flown and landed undetected past China, India, the US? There are only so many places that plane could have landed and I am sure each has been snapped with a satellite photo.

Infrared satellite images see right through camouflage. You can run but you can't hide.

It is sitting at the bottom of the deepest remotest part of the Ocean because whoever did this didn't want the truth to ever come out. I suspect the data recorders were shut off too.

9/11 was conducted by a group with box cutters. This by comparison was much too sophisticated for a bunch of central Asian tribes, no offense to central asians.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2014-03-17 15:32:34 and read 55114 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 36):
Are we 100% confident that there could not have been some mechanical failure

Not 100%......., but it seems unlikely, at best, considering the evidence of multiple course changes and seemingly deliberate cessation of comms. It appears to be very improbable, but not completely impossible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-17 15:32:40 and read 55137 times.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 64):
Don't you think the Israeli Central Intelligence Agency (Mossad) has more information then published in this forum? I am pretty sure they won't raise the level to its highest if is likely MH370 crashed somewhere in the Indian Ocean...

I think it is just as plausible that as long as there is even the most remote chance that the plane was hijacked and is still in one piece, Israel would likely raise their alert. I don't think that is surprising. Whether anyone else does will be interesting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 15:33:06 and read 55678 times.

Quoting dampfnudel (Reply 61):
There also seems to be a scaling back of the search in the Southern Indian Ocean.

This is news to me. CNN is reporting responsibility of the southern search has been transferred to Australia with one (or two?) US planes being based out of Perth to assist.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-17 15:33:49 and read 55187 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 55):
CNN states Israel just raised alert level to its highest for its ATC

Isn't this more or less SOP for their Air Force?

They're guessing as much as we do, but the level of actual threat is no different today than two weeks ago (imho).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-17 15:34:13 and read 54911 times.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 64):
Don't you think the Israeli Central Intelligence Agency (Mossad) has more information then published in this forum? I am pretty sure they won't raise the level to its highest if is likely MH370 crashed somewhere in the Indian Ocean...

No, I think they are just being paranoid as usual.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: indcwby
Posted 2014-03-17 15:34:31 and read 55223 times.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014...an-islamists-plan-to-hijack-plane/

Lots of interesting stuff out there.....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2014-03-17 15:36:11 and read 54776 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 42):
As to aimlessly flying around for 7 hours, if this were a suicide attempt, the person in control of the aircraft may have had second thoughts after killing the passengers, hence flying around contemplating their next move.

Or waiting for whatever target they were aiming for to be populated rather than empty in the middle of the night.

And during that time, somebody got wise to the situation and shot the aircraft down, maybe the Chinese because the target was in China, which would explain why China has been putting out false information. They don't want to admit they shot it down even if they were right in doing so...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 15:38:20 and read 55570 times.


Sanity Check - 3/17/2014 20:28Z
There is (will be) a link to this post in my profile under "homepage"

3/17/2014 20:28Z update since last Sanity Check.
The facts have not changed much. The a/c has not been found.
I've tried to be as factually accurate as I can - but I'm not an expert in each system - so if there factual errors please advise.
I've added a time-line section and expanded on the fire, ELT and updated Theory/Conspiracy Theory sections
I think I have clarified the ACARS was disabled part
Loaded updated corridor maps.
Corrected and clarified several items.
Added discussion of oxygen and pressurization.
Added a/c information.


First a synopsis
The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
The last ACARS transmission was 01:07 local.
The last comms were "All right, good night" transmitted to Malaysia ant hand-off to Vietnam control. Vietnam was not contacted. It has been reported it was the First Officer's voice.
NOTE: Saying "good night" or "so long" or "see you" or "Go Broncos" (okay not that one) is very common for hand-offs.
The transponder stopped transmitting at 1:21 - loss of secondary radar.
There are reports of a climb to 45K, uneven descent and some changes in altitude. Since this is based on primary radar - altitude data is somewhat uncertain. The last has been reported as 29,500ft but that seems in dispute.
There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Strait and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does NOT identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370
SATCOM system pings continued for 7+ (last ping at 08:11 local) hrs after LOS (loss of signal)
SATCOM pings do not locate the aircraft but based on correlation to signal strength there are two loci that indication aircraft distance from the Satellite.
These are not paths and I have changed my language to reflect that. They represent a distance from the satellite.
Loci one is north over Andaman Sea, Bay of Bengal as far as Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and is consistent with primary radar.
Loci two is south over the India Ocean west of Australia. We've had no reports of radar signals in that area.
The last SATCOM ping was at 8:11 am Malaysian time. At that time it would be dark on the north radius and light over the south radius.
Best data I have is SATCOM pings are hourly - so the 8:11 ping could be up to 1 hour before the aircraft stopped 'pinging'.
We have no ELT signal detected.
While authorities (Malaysian) have not confirmed this is a hijacking or purposeful event - it is believed that is highly likely by most, however, motivation is unknown.
Debris reported by Greek oil tanker has already been reported as not relevant.
Recent reports attributed to the FBI that the plane 'could have landed' and sent a satellite signal from the ground appear to be just confirming what we already knew - that the SATCOM pings could come from an a/c in flight, or powered up on the ground..
There have been no reports that a Rolls Royce EH report was sent upon landing.

Time-line (from CNN)
1.07 am - Last ACARS transmission.
1.19 am - Last verbal communication "All right, good night" from the plane; believed to be the co-pilot
1.21 am - Transponder stopped transmitting (turned off or failed)
1.30 am - Civilian (primary) radar lost contact
1.37 am - Expected ACARS transmission; not received
2.15 am - Last military primary radar contact
8.11 am - Last (hourly) satellite handshake


ACARS
ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, primarily maintenance information, to maintenance facilities like the airline, Boeing, Engine Manf, etc.
ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight.
ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.
ACARS communicates via VHF or SATCOM (and maybe Wifi at the gate). The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.
ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
While it has been widely reported that ACARS was "disabled before the transponder", that claim seems to be incorrect. We think it is a misunderstanding based on when the last ACARS was received and the next expected.

ACARS data from MH370
The ACARS system sent 2 engine health reports to Rolls Royce, both prior to the LOS event.
The Rolls Royce page indicates that a 'snapshot' of engine data would be sent at: takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. We know 2 ACARS Engine Health reports were received, so that would be consistent with the 1st two.
The last engine health report was received at 1:07am. The next was expected at 1:37 am and was not received. This indicates that the transmission of ACARS data was disabled between 1:07 and 1:37, but not when during that period.
The Engine Health report received prior to LOS had 'interesting' altitude data/fluctuations including 40K drop in a minute. That data is suspect.
Since no "landing" report was received, then either the ACARS communication was disabled, or the a/c did not land.
We have not heard if ACARS would send a report upon fuel starvation flame-out.

SATCOM
SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.
SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.
The SATCOM system on MH370 was connecting to Inmarsat 3 satellites. In the area covered, the only satellite with coverage is IOR.
Big version: Width: 720 Height: 516 File size: 199kb
Since only 1 satellite has coverage, no triangulation is possible. All that can be determined is distance from the satellite. This has been used to define 2 potential loci were the a/c could have been.
North Corridor
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 114kb
.
South Corridor
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 71kb
We do not know if these corridors are defined by the last SATCOM ping, or multiple pings.
We cannot distinguish if the a/c was flying or parked on the ground (powered up) when these pings were sent.
We have not been told how the distance from IOR was estimated - it could be signal strength or time of flight (signal propagation time).Opinion: as an EE I think signal strength is unlikely - it would depend on things such as a/c orientation. Time of flight - which is how GPS works - seems more likely.
NOTE: While these may appear as paths - they are not. They are simply a set of potential locations based upon ping data. The aircraft could have been in a constant standard turn circle somewhere along one of the loci (red lines) and the satellite could not tell. We only know it was somewhere along those lines.

SATCOM Pings
The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites (hourly). These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here."
SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel. They are akin to registration pings on a cell system.
The last pings were detected at 8:11am Malaysia time. This does not mean the aircraft went down or landed at this time, only that the last ping was 8:11. Source I've seen indicate the pings are hourly - but that is not confirmed.
SATCOM pings provide no aircraft heading, speed or altitude information, however, distance from the Satellite can be estimated, and ONLY distance.
Based on analysis of the SATCOM pings by Inmarsat, two possible corridors have been predicted based upon a radius from the satellite picking up the pings.
SATCOM pings would be sent as long as the system (aircraft) was power up and withing coverage area. So, on the ground, if powered up (thanks to mandala499).
People have asked if SATCOM pings could come from a crashed plane if the right parts survived.
Very unlikely. The system is not self contained, the equipment, power and antennas are separate.
Recent news about the fact that the plane could have landed really appears to be just a restatement of known data.
Specifically - the SATCOM pings could have been sent from an aircraft powered, but landed - or from an aircraft in flight.
Clarification: The key is the system is powered, whether by engines, apu or shore line (on the ground).
Again: These pings to not contain ANY data about the aircraft position, speed, altitude, etc.
The 'location' data inferred from the SATCOM pings is based analysis of those signals which gives an approximate distance from the satellite to the a/c.
Since the satellite is in geosynchronous orbit (~22,000 miles), the difference in distance between a flying aircraft and one on the ground is probably not measurable.

CRV/FDR Data
The CVR (cockpit voice recorder) and FDR (flight data recorder) do not transmit data in flight.
They do emit sonic pings if immersed. These will last a minimum of 30 days. We can expect sonar is being used to listen for them.
The pinger operates at 37.5KHz 106.5dp re 1μPa. (thanks k83713)
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Normal Conditions: 1-2km
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Good Conditions: 4-5km
Localising a pinger from the surface in shallow water is relatively easy, as described above. In deep water, the detection equipment should be installed on a self-propelled underwater vehicle, presupposing that the position is already known to within the maximum 2-3km detection range.
More Info:http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html
The CVR reportedly is a 120 minute CVR so it would contain only the last 120 minutes of flight (presuming it did not fail or was turned off prior to that).
I don't have data form the recording time of the FDR, but it is typically much longer.

ELT
The ELT, or emergency locater transmitter is mounted in the rear of the aircraft - difficult to access in flight.
The ELT is battery powered - independent built in power source. It is this source that is suspect in causing the 787 fire at Heathrow.
The ELT will be trigged by G forces in a crash. It will not operate under water.
The ELT can be triggered from the cockpit - it is a hardwired switch not dependent on computer systems.
The ELT transmits on the guard frequency (VHF) and on 406MHz to satellites. If it had been triggered, satellites would have heard it and been able to locate the a/c. That is isn't purpose in live.

Primary versus Secondary Radar (brief tutorial)
Primary radar is based on the original military usage. It sends out a strong (KW to MW) signal and looks for a reflection from something.
Primary radar provides distance and location. Comparing returns speed can be determined. Strength of return can indicate size.
Stealth a/c and ships are designed to absorb or miss-direct the reflection so primary radar cannot see them.
Primary radar does not depend on the transponder, so turning off a transponder will not make an a/c disappear from primary.
Primary radar is less prevalent than secondary - and more typically military tho ATC's do use it.
Secondary Radar is really not Radar in the defined sense. It is directional communication.
In secondary radar a directional signal is sent out (much less powerful than primary). Any a/c with a transponder that receives it will respond (the transponder responds) with information about the aircraft.
Combined with the direction of the outgoing beam, the time of flight information and returned information, the a/c location and identity (and other info depending on the mode) is returned.
Secondary radar is the primary method used by ATC.
If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar will not see the a/c.
In the case of MH370
The transponder was turned off - so the a/c disappeared from secondary (ATC) radar.
A target was tracked west, then northwest using primary radar. That target was correlated with SATCOM pings help determine it was MH370.

Way-point Tracks
The use of way-points to the navigate are conjecture. They happen to line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just coincidentally along the path.
A 777 can be programed to follow a series of way-point automatically - this is normal operating procedure and a 777 pilot would need no extra practice/training to do it. (Relevant to pilot flight simulator ownership)

Airworthiness Directive
The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna

Cargo and Lithium Battery Fires.
There are reports that the cargo in MH370 did not receive normal X-ray screening.
There are also statements that the shipment held nothing hazardous or remarkable.
There are reports of a shipment of lithium batteries on the a/c and that perhaps they caused a fire.
The hold of a passenger a/c like the 777 is protected with Halon and detectors - so a fire in the hold would be detected.
The EE bay is not so protected.
Therefore some think a fire could have occurred and been suppressed. This does not directly explain loss of comms.
Opinion: as a firefighter, I doubt this. The fire would destroy the a/c. However, those on the forum with more knowledge of these systems disagree

Aircraft Type and Fuel State
The aircraft was a Boeing 777-200ER. MTOW 656,000 lbs, 301 3 class passengers (standard Boeing Config - does not reflect MH specific config.)
The aircraft could land in 6000 ft, or much less at high risk. As little as 3000ft has been stated, but it could not take off from there.
The aircraft would need a hard surface to land - this is heavier that has been done on steel matts.
It is reported the aircraft 45 to 60 minutes extra fuel. This would amount to about 7-7.5 hrs of fuel. This is a normal amount for this route.
The aircraft should have been able to fly about 30 minutes after the last SATCOM ping at 8:11.
The figure at this link show max range for the 777-200ER. NOTE: MH370 was not fueled for this range. http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com.../777_range_singapore.pdf

Hypoxia and Pressurization
There has been lots of speculation about loss of pressurization in the aircraft and what that would do to passengers and crew.
IMPORTANT NOTE: all of this applies to cabin pressure - not the pressure outside. Just climbing to 45K would not exposed the passengers to that altitude.
In the case of loss of cabin pressure - O2 mask would deploy automatically.
The pilots cannot disable this above 13,500 feet - they can release the masks.
Passengers masks would last 12-20 minutes. Portable crew (FA) bottles ~30minutes. Cockpit crew longer.
Time of useful consciousness (not to loss of consciousness) will range from 1-3 minutes at 30K to 9-15 seconds at 43K. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)
Because of this the a/c must be certified able to descend and pilots demonstrate an emergency descent to ~10,000 ft in 2 minutes.
The actual regulation is that passengers cannot be exposed to a cabin altitude of more than 25K for more than 2 minutes, or more than 40K for any time.
Question: Can the pilots 'depressurize' the plane?
I believe not to a dangerous level. Per the FAA regulations the 777 is certified under it "must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to cabin pressure altitudes in excess of 15,000 feet (4,600 m) after any probable failure condition in the pressurization system"
This is consistent with statements that, as long as bleed air is operating, the outflow valves of the 777 will not allow the cabin altitude to exceed 14,000 ft.
This, of course, excludes a major structural failure - it applies to pilot actions only.
Above 40,000 ft cabin altitude - positive pressure oxygen is required - passenger masks do not do this and would not be effective.
The discussions of climbing to 45K to "disable" the passengers really is not relevant unless you assume the a/c has had a major breech in the hull that full depressurizes it.

Search Areas (including those that have be halted)
Along the planed route. I believe searching in this area is ending or decreasing based on new data indicating the a/c is not there
West over the Malacca strait
North west of Malacca strait
Along the two loci predicted by the SATCOM pings which continue north to Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and south to the India Ocean.
These are huge search areas - I do not have a good handle on what assets are deployed where
It appears the north loci is considered more likely because of primary radar signals that roughly correlate.
I would expect review of primary radar west of Australia is in process if not done.

Mobile phones
We continue to have lots of discussion on "mobile phones" - can the connect in flight, etc.
We don't have any reports or evidence of that any passenger or crew mobile phone has registered with any network.
Until we have that data or reports - I believe the mobile phone discussions are not useful.
UPDATE: This subject continues to be discussed. But, we have had no reports of cell phones registering with towers - we are in a loop here.

Theories and Conspiracy Theories
Currently, it seems most believe there is some positive action here - hijacker or crew based.
Opinion: Mostly, I believe this is because a mechanical failure that selectively terminates communication, incapacitates the crew/passengers, but then allows the a/c to fly on uncontrolled for 7 hours seems unlikely.
There are lots of theories out there - some clearly "conspiracy based" some just factual. Often it is hard to distinguish.
Here are a few.
A fire broke out that incapacitated passengers and crew - but allowed to aircraft to fly on it's own till starvation.
Corollary to this - the fire would have to disable comms, or cause the crew to disable comms in an attempt to fight it.
Corollary to this - the fire drove the pilots out of the cockpit.
Corollary to this - the fire disabled comms, nav and systems, and the crew - still alive - got lost trying to return.
The a/c was hijacked and flown to a remote strip to be used in a future terrorist act.
Corollary to this - The breadth of the countries searching alone makes this problematic, but it is not impossible.
The aircraft "shadowed" either a KLM or SIA aircraft to hide from radar then turned off the track and landed.
Questions raised - lot of discussion about if this was possible.
A mechanical failure depressurized the a/c and disabled the crew/passengers either rapidly or without their knowledge.
Corollary to this - What disabled comms?
One of the pilots hijacked the plane to commit suicide. (See Pilot Conspiracy below).
The plane was hijacked, either with or without crew involvement.
Despite the belief this is incident required human actions - we have no evidence of that. Rather - no other theory seems credible.
Freescale engineers have been hijacked for sensitive US data. Opinion: As an engineer who has worked with Freescale - I find that unsupportable. Companies send groups of employees around all the time. While many companies have policies about the # of executives on a flight - that typically is not enforced on regular employees.
There was something in the Cargo worth stealing - which is why it was not screened. This would require involvement of lots of people on the ground. Why not steal it on the ground.
The plane was full of undeclared gold.Gold is very heavy - what would you declare the cargo as?
The US hijacked the 777 using on board FBW technology to fly it like a drone to Diego Garcia (this one wins the insanity case).
Related: There has been a claim by counter terrorist expert that this could be a "cyber hijack" - a malicious attack of a FBW a/c. I don't know where to go with this - only reporting it because I'm trying to stay ahead of the next craze. Opinion: (speaking as an EE) this is the stuff dreams are made of (bad dreams).

Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).
The crew and passengers are a focus of investigation. Particularly the crew, because of the difficulty of managing an external cockpit intrusion.
The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
To address the data on a few of these:
1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?
2) The pilot has a very fancy flight simulator. People claim he used it to for this. Opinion: A 777 pilot does not need to train for the flying done - he knows how to do that stuff already. What he needs it planning for violent action/takeover. A flight simulator is no help.
Note - there has been some discussion that the pilot used this for training of accomplices.
3) There are rumors of family problems reported from China. This has been reported as untrue.

IN summary what we know is. (This has NOT changed)
The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
There is evidence from SATCOM and Radar that the a/c traveled west - then most likely north west.
Hourly SATCOM signals show the a/c was operating till at least 8:11am Malaysia time, over 7 hrs total flight time
We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

Additional thoughts.
A hijacking or positive intervention by human agency seems likely.
The erratic altitude and course may indicate a struggle on board.
While we would like to believe the a/c landed safely somewhere, that seems unlikely to have happened unobserved.


That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1


[Edited 2014-03-17 16:29:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-17 15:38:38 and read 54686 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 70):

That's a little tom clancy-esq don't you think? How exactly could they have flown and landed undetected past China, India, the US? There are only so many places that plane could have landed and I am sure each has been snapped with a satellite photo.

Infrared satellite images see right through camouflage. You can run but you can't hide.

It is sitting at the bottom of the deepest remotest part of the Ocean because whoever did this didn't want the truth to ever come out. I suspect the data recorders were shut off too.

9/11 was conducted by a group with box cutters. This by comparison was much too sophisticated for a bunch of central Asian tribes, no offense to central asians.

Absolutely! My response was to another poster's theory, their quote below:

Quoting EC135 (Reply 247):
The aircraft is in my opinion sitting in one piece on the ground on a remote field in the Turkmenistan or Pakistan area covered with camouflage and waiting to be used in terrorist attack e.g. as a dirty bomb


It got messed up since it was at the end of another thread.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-17 15:40:25 and read 54375 times.

thank you for your continued sanity checks, rcair1.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-17 15:42:00 and read 54500 times.

all of we know it cld happened right there where it started, flight coming back to attack KUL, was shot down at Malacca strait by the military, at this stage. all theories are possible, no one showed us any hard core satellites pings images of its movement

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-17 15:43:06 and read 54621 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 75):
Lots of interesting stuff out there.....

Yeah, brilliant. It's totally Al Quaida Style to make your kindnapped planes disappear completely, don't tell anybody, and try to not destroy any highly erected landmarks in your enemies capital....

E: @rcair: Thanks again.  yes 

[Edited 2014-03-17 15:44:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 15:45:28 and read 54336 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories

Thanks once again. Has it been firmly established that the captain was added to the flight at more or less the last minute? If so, perhaps that fact should be included in the above category as it seems to me to reduce the chances that he was involved in a planned takeover of the plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 15:49:07 and read 53817 times.

Rcair... a suggestion to add to theories.... in your excellent write up, maybe a sentence in theories section about the article of warnings of an Al Queda style attack using a shoe bomb.

I still lean this way, obviously, but I think it is at least as valid a possibility as other ones listed.

Especially since there may have been a struggle after the turnaround. Who knows, maybe a shoe bomb went off then and crippled the plane?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 15:50:28 and read 53562 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 82):
Thanks once again. Has it been firmly established that the captain was added to the flight at more or less the last minute? If so, perhaps that fact should be included in the above category as it seems to me to reduce the chances that he was involved in a planned takeover of the plane.

Unless the same group of miscreants orchestrating the whole event also conspired to have him added to the flight for precisely this purpose.

Not that I believe this but I'm sure some people who choose to believe the vast conspiracy theory will be able to overcome any obstacle.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 16:00:02 and read 52663 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 75):

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014...an-islamists-plan-to-hijack-plane/

Lots of interesting stuff out there.....

It seems highly implausible that one could deploy a shoe bomb in exactly such a manner so as to open the cockpit door while not damaging anything else in the plane (EE compartment said to be directly below that door) and next overpowering all crew members without anyone raising any kind of alarm.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-17 16:00:51 and read 52519 times.

rcair1 - let me join others in thanking you for the amazing job you are doing with your sanity checks. They are simply brilliant.

May I add one point for you to consider. In the section on the flight simulator, you have not mentioned a point that has come up fairly frequently, which is that the pilot is reported to have shared the simulator with friends, which could have been a way (a front?) to train others.

Personally I do not think it is relevant, but I raise it for the sake of completeness.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DrivesForShow
Posted 2014-03-17 16:03:49 and read 52295 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 69):
That's a little tom clancy-esq don't you think?

Not necessarily. The hard part would be the timing but who knows, they may have tried a few times and bailed because the timing wasn't right. Maybe the stars aligned this time so they went for it. I don't think it would be hard to check flight plans and know that it left on time, especially for a regularly scheduled flight (FlightAware has that for example). Once you make contact, mirroring the other plane would be a piece of cake from there on in.

I agree the whole landing part is the biggest reach but if this was as sophisticated operation with as much planning as it appears it could have had, they could've found a way.

I'll be the first to renounce this theory pending new info but at this point I can't just blow it off as too extravagant. 9/11 would've seemed impossible before it actually happened.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:04:11 and read 52148 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 85):
It seems highly implausible that one could deploy a shoe bomb in exactly such a manner so as to open the cockpit door while not damaging anything else in the plane (EE compartment said to be directly below that door) and next overpowering all crew members without anyone raising any kind of alarm.

Maybe they got in the cockpit without the shoe bomb (maybe by lav breaks or something) then had control of the plane for a bit, a struggle ensued, so they set off a shoe bomb then that damaged the plane and compromised the hull.

[Edited 2014-03-17 16:05:42]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:07:19 and read 52027 times.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 86):
been a way (a front?) to train others.

Done - just added.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 83):
Rcair... a suggestion to add to theories.... in your excellent write up, maybe a sentence in theories section about the article of warnings of an Al Queda style attack using a shoe bomb.

I'm trying to compile a list of this - but have not gotten it into shape yet.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-17 16:08:44 and read 52065 times.

Yesterday it was announced ACARS was shut down manually just after 1:07am. Today once it was revealed the last radio transmission received was by the co-pilot - a news reporter asked whether ACARS was shut down before last radio message transmission to Malay ATC - which would indicate largely either pilots purposefully shut down ACARS unless the cockpit was hijacked, which IMO is unlikely as there was no attempt by any passenger to ring home to report a hijacking. I'd imagine all passengers were unaware what was going on which would indicate one or both pilots are the sole suspect(s). Transport minister was very reluctant to agree or disagree with this scenario. He wouldn't go any further. Which to me indicates the authorities have gathered solid leads but aren't releasing anything to the public. Leads that if are released to public could sabotage their mission of finding MH370.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jpsnaggs
Posted 2014-03-17 16:09:56 and read 51911 times.

Long time lurker, first time poster... Always been interested in aviation & mysteries so this topic has really caught my attention. I was always a huge conspiracy buff until I lived through a conspiracy and found out conspiracies really do not occur the way people think they do - if that makes any sense. Not sure what I can add technically to this discussion, but from an outside view (non-technical aviation buff) I have the following comments & questions which I think are mainly just me trying to get my thoughts in order and understand what has transpired. Also, thanks to everyone involved in this forum for an amazing and intelligent discussions.

- Too many things do not make sense for me at this time. Every day information seems to change, or be discounted or resurface. Therefore, almost everything seems to be on the table discussions wise. Lets face it, something exactly like this has never occurred (key word exactly) hence why I think that anything is possible at this point - from the most bizarre mechanical issues, to the craziest hijack/terrorist/suicide theories are relevant. That being said, I have several issues with the hijack/terrorist/suicide (non-mechanical related) issues.

1. I have read of several (I think 19 was the count) eyewitness reports of the a/c flying very low as it crossed back over the Malaysian Peninsula. One report I read said the the plane was lit up as if it were landing - like the headlights on a vehicle. I am not discounting these eyewitness accounts as crazy people as they all seem to be saying similar things, low, loud & bright. Also, these eyewitnesses were discounted early on by people in the media and on boards such as these as being irrelevant because "the jet could never have made a U-Turn unnoticed by radar." Does that not seem odd to anyone - A Hijacked plane turned around & the persona piloting the plane turned the lights on? Could the a/c be so bright without the landing lights on - idk the answer to that but why go through all that trouble to evade radar only to fly low over land all lit up?

2. Re: Cell phones - which I have heard alternatively "debunked" on this forum, and made "relevant" on this forum - I do not buy for a second that not one person on board saw them cross that low back over the Peninsula (presumably at a low altitude) and didn't at least attempt to turn on their phone. Think of all these employees from Freescale Semiconductor on board. Had they been able and felt threatened, tech types would grab for their phone to see if they had reception. I know I would if I was alive and able. I don't see any way in any of these scenario's, mechanical or otherwise that these passengers would not have attempted to make contact with the outside world had they been able to.

3. Is it correct that these infamous "pings" can occur in flight or on the ground, and the only caveat is that the engines need to be running? I am not sure where I am going with this point - but curious. Could this data be completely wrong? Think of the most unusual mechanical circumstance times 10...

4. Re: the possible Southern Arc which everyone thinks is a path of least resistance, Why fly out over the Andaman Islands if your only going to head directly South towards the Indian Ocean? Even in a suicidal rampage, it seems like if you wanted to go south, but wanted to stay low over the water you would just pass North of Banda Aceh - continuing on a straight line at Vampi Waypoint? Why go all the way to Igrex Waypoint unless you were headed North or the plane was somehow flying in circles... I am not a geography guy so please forgive any poor directional info in this point.

5. I am very bothered by the Southern Arc, the top most point seems too close (relative to the other points) to where the a/c actually started? Am I correct in interpreting it this way? It seems to be at the Java Sea....

6. Has it been 100% verified that the first turn which the a/c deviated from course was pre-programmed, or is this just a guess? If we can verify its pre-programmed I may feel more confident in a hijack/takeover/suicide scenario.

At this point, I don't have a firm hypothesis only to say that we are missing a big part of the puzzle that when I think we get it, we will have our "Ah HA!" moment... I still wonder if some really out of the box mechanical issue caused such a unusual problem that the a/c circled and circled with a incapacitated crew and passengers and of course huge holes in that theory too, no wreckage etc...

Anyway, I am sure I will be more thoughts eventually! Feel free to pick apart my questions & comments.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-17 16:10:27 and read 51759 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 80):
all of we know it cld happened right there where it started, flight coming
back to attack KUL, was shot down at Malacca strait by the military, at this stage. all theories
are possible, no one showed us any hard core satellites pings images of its movement

I guess it is theoretically possible but if an airliner was shot down over the Malacca strait,
wouldn't the fairly large amount of ships in the strait and it's surrounding waters
have noticed it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:20:30 and read 50863 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 89):
I'm trying to compile a list of this - but have not gotten it into shape yet.


Thanks for your hard work...

It was this article...


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014...an-islamists-plan-to-hijack-plane/

I just keep thinking this started out very similar to 9/11 still with the departure, climb out, takeover, and turn back. Then maybe a struggle (like on United 93), so possible a bomb set off then which maybe damaged hull... and the plane just flew off, like Helios...

Just a theory, I know.... and more than what that article states. But the Petronas Towers could have been a target too...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-17 16:23:41 and read 50639 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 92):
I guess it is theoretically possible but if an airliner was shot down over the Malacca strait,
wouldn't the fairly large amount of ships in the strait and it's surrounding waters
have noticed it?

was not familiar with area until i checked marinetraffic.com and i was shocked with the amount of ships around there

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jpsnaggs
Posted 2014-03-17 16:24:33 and read 50404 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 93):
I just keep thinking this started out very similar to 9/11 still with the departure, climb out, takeover, and turn back. Then maybe a struggle (like on United 93), so possible a bomb set off then which maybe damaged hull... and the plane just flew off, like Helios...

Just a theory, I know.... and more than what that article states. But the Petronas Towers could have been a target too...

Sounds very plausible...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:27:41 and read 50215 times.

Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 91):
Every day information seems to change, or be discounted or resurface.

I think this is primarily an artifact of the news cycle - people read things at different times.
I can tell you from personal experience that it is VERY hard to keep track of this. I've learned that in doing the sanity checks.

I am pretty happy that very little of what I put in the sanity check has changed - almost every, if not every, item I've listed has stood the test of time. That is consistent with the whole goal of compiling known/factual information.
Most corrections have been of the nature of expansion or technical clarification.

BTW - I just posted a new one at

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
Sanity Chedk
Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 91):
Cell phones which I have heard alternatively "debunked" on this forum, and made "relevant" on this forum

I maintain they are debunked till we hear concrete data that a cell phone has been found to register with a tower - which, btw, is a much lower standard than a call or message being sent. I do agree that if the a/c was low over land early in flight, people may have tried to call. That is also the only case where cell phones would be likely to work. (below 6000ft). The fact that we have not heard helps debunk the low level sightings.

Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 91):
Is it correct that these infamous "pings" can occur in flight or on the ground, and the only caveat is that the engines need to be running?

The "engines running" part is not really correct. It should be "powered up" whether by shore line, engines, or apu.

Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 91):
verified that the first turn which the a/c deviated from course was pre-programmed,

We have no way of knowing. The programing is done in the cockpit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-17 16:29:59 and read 49977 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 20):
If it's in Turkmenistan (or that general region), without cargo - besides the hypothetical weapon - and no passangers, could it make it to New York? If it did follow another plane to avoid radar detection (like I mentioned in part 32 with SIA 68) it could do the same on its way to the east coast of the US and peel off at the last second before there is time to react. Also have to keep in mind European/Chinese/etc. targets as well, the US isn't the only country that gets attacked

OK. That's a good posible plan, except that BEFORE, noone thought about that possibilitty, but NOW?.

Are you implying that nothing can be done about that?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gregorous
Posted 2014-03-17 16:32:09 and read 49638 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 5):
Another thread. I wonder which number will be the last for this topic...
42

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-17 16:35:16 and read 49579 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 93):
I just keep thinking this started out very similar to 9/11 still with the departure, climb out, takeover, and turn back. Then maybe a struggle (like on United 93), so possible a bomb set off then which maybe damaged hull... and the plane just flew off, like Helios...

Just a theory, I know.... and more than what that article states. But the Petronas Towers could have been a target too.

This is a very plausible scenario IMO. It might have been an attempt by the Captain to overcome the hijackers too. The turn back to Kuala Lumpur is very telling. If it was a real emergency I think they'd to Vietnam.

Its certainly possible a small explosive went off too. Just enough to DE-pressurize it but not seriously damage it.

Is it possible they could have landed at an unprepared strip? There are plenty of salt flats in Central Asia. The Aral Sea perhaps or whats left of it. If it had been hijacked though, why not use it again right away. Everyone is on the lookout now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 16:35:42 and read 49429 times.

Okay, assume that is was not pilot suicide but that one or both of the pilots were involved in a plot to take the plane somewhere else or that the plane was hi-jacked and the pilots had no choice but to follow instructions.

Here are a few points (which we all know) taken from an article in a Sydney newspaper yesterday:

* Authorities know someone disabled ACARS at 0107.

* About 14 mins later the transponder was shut down.

* I quote: "The fact that they went dark separately is strong evidence that the plane's disappearance was deliberate".

* The final words, which the co-pilot is believed to have spoken, were spoken after ACARS went offline.

* I quote: "Whoever spoke did not mention any trouble on board, seemingly misleading ground control".


So, I will give the pilots the benefit of not being involved in this scenario; this is what I think might have happened:

* At some point, a hijacker entered the cockpit. We don't know when, but it was before ACARS shut down. It could be a crew member, passenger, ground crew member, another insider (maybe somebody used fake ID or took the ID from somebody else to get air side access and just hid somewhere in the plane with whatever weapons they had). Could somebody with access to the cabin get into and stay inside a crew rest area without being noticed? Maybe a dodgy passenger involved gave their ticket to somebody else after getting past security? I don't know, but let's assume that there were others that hi-jacked the plane. Maybe they tried to take the plane whilst on the ground but the pilots still had to takeoff to save their own lives and just followed instructions? Would pilots still takeoff even if the plane was taken whilst on the ground? The cockpit door is sometimes left open until push back.

* The hijackers did their research or knew about the 777 and instructed the pilots to turn off ACARS and the transponder. How long does it take for a pilot to turn off both? 14 mins between the two going off seems too long to me if it was done by the pilot. I think the pilot would turn them off closer together than 14 mins. Maybe it is a sign that a) it wasn't the pilot who turned them off but someone that did not know exactly how to turn them off so it took them some time, or b) the pilot deliberately took a long time to turn them off to indicate that it was not somebody who knew what they were doing.

* The pilots were instructed to make the last ATC call and would not have been able to inform ATC of anything because they were under threat.

* The pilots turned the plane around under instruction.

* The point at which they climb to 45,000ft is the point at which there is a struggle in the cockpit. Maybe the pilots tried to take the plane back and flew in a way to put the hijackers off, or, maybe that was the point where the hijackers finished the pilots. Maybe the hijackers kept the pilots alive the entire time and just told them what to do.

* The plane either crashed somewhere, or was landed by either the pilots or the hijackers.

So, maybe the pilots were flying the plane under threat / direction from hijackers and were unable to indicate what was wrong. I find 14 mins between ACARS going off to the transponder going off an interesting point. I wonder if authorities have listened to ATC recordings from previous flights with the FO to see if his voice was stressed or slightly different to how it would normally sound, and, if the "All right, good night" words he used were his common choice of words.

Maybe it is pilot suicide. Maybe the FO was blackmailed or was made an offer to take the plane somewhere. Maybe the Captain was the bad egg but he told the FO what to do, that is why the FO communicated to ATC. Or, maybe the pilots were just being told what to do by somebody else. Maybe the passenger who was an aircraft engineer was involved. If it was not pilot suicide, and based on the 14mins time difference between ACARS going off and the transponder going off and the fact that most likely the FO spoke the final words, I am starting to think that the pilots were just following the instructions of others whilst under threat...

[Edited 2014-03-17 16:40:43]

[Edited 2014-03-17 16:45:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-17 16:36:11 and read 49322 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 93):
I just keep thinking this started out very similar to 9/11 still with the departure, climb out, takeover, and turn back. Then maybe a struggle (like on United 93), so possible a bomb set off then which maybe damaged hull... and the plane just flew off, like Helios...

You didn't read this, did you?

Quoting indcwby (Reply 65):


http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/po...nes-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68

Interesting read....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: JHwk
Posted 2014-03-17 16:37:51 and read 49169 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 96):
Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 91):
Cell phones which I have heard alternatively "debunked" on this forum, and made "relevant" on this forum

I maintain they are debunked till we hear concrete data that a cell phone has been found to register with a tower - which, btw, is a much lower standard than a call or message being sent. I do agree that if the a/c was low over land early in flight, people may have tried to call. That is also the only case where cell phones would be likely to work. (below 6000ft). The fact that we have not heard helps debunk the low level sightings.

I'm a bit torn on this one now. It should be very easy to get the data from all the towers nearby to low level sitings and cross-reference how long the various IMEIs were in range, and things that match with the plane scenario be followed up.

The hard part is then using that data to check IMEIs against all towers that could have possibly seen the aircraft on either the northern or southern route.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jpsnaggs
Posted 2014-03-17 16:39:21 and read 48928 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 97):
Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 97):

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 20):
If it's in Turkmenistan (or that general region), without cargo - besides the hypothetical weapon - and no passangers, could it make it to New York? If it did follow another plane to avoid radar detection (like I mentioned in part 32 with SIA 68) it could do the same on its way to the east coast of the US and peel off at the last second before there is time to react. Also have to keep in mind European/Chinese/etc. targets as well, the US isn't the only country that gets attacked

OK. That's a good posible plan, except that BEFORE, noone thought about that possibilitty, but NOW?.

Are you implying that nothing can be done about that?

I've wondered this myself. If its essentially this "easy" to take over a plane a disappear, whats the feasibility of flying low, and/or shadowing a plane all the way to NYC, or London or LAX... What happens if the plane shows up trying to land at LAX and radios they have hostages and must land now?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 16:41:39 and read 48722 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 93):

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014...an-islamists-plan-to-hijack-plane/

I just keep thinking this started out very similar to 9/11 still with the departure, climb out, takeover, and turn back. Then maybe a struggle (like on United 93), so possible a bomb set off then which maybe damaged hull... and the plane just flew off, like Helios...

Just a theory, I know.... and more than what that article states. But the Petronas Towers could have been a target too...

It does sound conceptually plausible. However, if the timeline is to be believed then the takeover would had to have taken place between 0119h (last radio call) and 0121h (transponder shut off). That's a very narrow window to overcome the crew. Not impossible though...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DrivesForShow
Posted 2014-03-17 16:42:26 and read 48540 times.

At what point would the lack of finding any debris in the ocean lead people to conclusively believe the plane was on land somewhere (crashed or landed or see next paragraph)? Surely at some point a lifejacket, a suitcase, etc. would be spotted or wash up on shore. I read the currents in the Indian Ocean can be 15km/h, that's 1000+ miles easily by now. When does it become suspicious? 2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months,...? I'm not talking about the whole wreckage, just any shread of floating debris that likely came from MH 370.

This is a little out there but stay with me: If you are one of the many people that believe the plane went down in the ocean, what if Shah (or whoever) had studied the Miracle on the Hudson and practiced on his simulator and brought the a/c down in one piece? If the goal was to never be found, what better way than that in the middle of the Indian Ocean? This assumes the passengers are dead from Hypoxia so they don't escape and the pilot/hijacker goes down with the ship. One hole is the lack of ELT transmissions - can those be disabled? Another hole is that it could be next impossible at night - could he have waited til daybreak around Austrailia? I believe it would've been lighter 7 hours after last contact. If this theory is true we'll never find a trace of that plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2014-03-17 16:42:33 and read 48499 times.

OK, I've been trying to keep up with these threads since the very first one, but they are filling up so fast now that if I leave my desk for any length of time (I do have other things to do), these may have advanced by 100's of posts if not multiple threads. So, I know I've missed some points.

My very basic question is:
Have "they" completely ruled out the possibility that the plane was destroyed (for whatever reason) and came down in the vicinity of where contact was lost ...IE.: the 40 minutes after departure? Is anybody still searching in that area, or has it been called off, with everyone looking somewhere west?

And, since nobody has been able to call someone on the plane, nor has anybody received a phone call from anybody on the plane, can we just drop the whole cell phone issue from the discussion? It is irrelevant whether calls -could- go through, if towers are reached, etc., etc., since no calls have been answered.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-17 16:42:40 and read 48830 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 83):
This is news to me. CNN is reporting responsibility of the southern search has been transferred to Australia with one (or two?) US planes being based out of Perth to assist.

The USS Kidd is going back to normal duties. Instead, a P-8 is going to fly out of Perth to search the southern Indian Ocean, along with Australian assets. Much better option than using a destroyer to search.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: drew777
Posted 2014-03-17 16:43:44 and read 48662 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 100):
* Authorities know someone disabled ACARS at 0107.
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 100):
* The final words, which the co-pilot is believe to have spoken, were spoken after ACARS went offline.

They've already retracted that. The system reports every 30 minutes. They know it was turned off after 1:07 because that is when it sent the last update.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:44:28 and read 48324 times.

t

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 101):
You didn't read this, did you?

Sure I did... I don't believe that happened though.

I'm guess close examination of primary radar records would show n unidentified target approaching the other plane at interception. I also think intercepting another plane would be very difficult. Timing issues.

I think the idea of a 9/11 copy is a simpler explanation, though may just as well be incorrect.

But to me it seems one of the simplest explanations, with very few people involved. The initial actions line up real well it seems, and then that article came out outlining similar goals.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 16:45:48 and read 48377 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 100):
Here are a few points (which we all know) taken from an article in a Sydney newspaper yesterday:

* Authorities know someone disabled ACARS at 0107.

No, this was misinformation from the Malaysian PM. Last transmission was at 0107h but it's unknown when ACARS became disabled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-17 16:46:15 and read 48167 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 106):
Have "they" completely ruled out the possibility that the plane was destroyed (for whatever reason) and came down in the vicinity of where contact was lost ...IE.: the 40 minutes after departure? Is anybody still searching in that area, or has it been called off, with everyone looking somewhere west?

That would have been and was the first place they looked. If they didn't find anything I doubt they'd go back.
Pat

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 16:50:24 and read 47991 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 105):
At what point would the lack of finding any debris in the ocean lead people to conclusively believe the plane was on land somewhere (crashed or landed or see next paragraph)? Surely at some point a lifejacket, a suitcase, etc. would be spotted or wash up on shore. I read the currents in the Indian Ocean can be 15km/h, that's 1000+ miles easily by now. When does it become suspicious? 2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months,...? I'm not talking about the whole wreckage, just any shread of floating debris that likely came from MH 370.

If it crashed into the ocean, then one day, who knows when or where, somebody is going to be on a beach somewhere or swimming in the sea and maybe a seat cushion or safety card will be found...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 16:50:45 and read 47949 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 106):
And, since nobody has been able to call someone on the plane, nor has anybody received a phone call from anybody on the plane, can we just drop the whole cell phone issue from the discussion? It is irrelevant whether calls -could- go through, if towers are reached, etc., etc., since no calls have been answered.

The cell phone issue is relevant if it turns out that somebody's phone registered with a network--even for the briefest time--at some point. A call doesn't have to be made or answered.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-17 16:52:26 and read 47953 times.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine a B777 (with all it's anti collision lights and transponder switched off!) flying in the shadow of another B777 at night would be lit up like a Christmas tree, by the lead B777's powerful tail strobe light. How traffic flying in the opposite direction could miss such a sight is hard to imagine.

A big danger however would come when the lead B777 performs a step climb I imagine the aircrafts angle of attack would send the aircrafts jet wash down towards the trailling B777, creating some severe turbulance and the chance of a flame out of one, if not both engines. And speaking of turbulance, if the lead B777 hits CAT, then the last place I would want to be is in the wake of another Heavy.

One question. In a Military in-flight refueling scenario, is the Tanker flown manually or on autopilot. I cant imagine for one moment a trailing fighter would refuel while on autopilot.

So having said all that, I find it hard to imagine a B777 Pilot, flying manually, on a moonless night for the estimated 7 hours the aircraft was believed to have flown for, in the shadow of a B777 with a bright strobe light flashing in his eyes. If he did I hope he had ILS at the proposed airport he was meant to have landed at.

[Edited 2014-03-17 17:27:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:53:04 and read 47766 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 104):
It does sound conceptually plausible. However, if the timeline is to be believed then the takeover would had to have taken place between 0119h (last radio call) and 0121h (transponder shut off). That's a very narrow window to overcome the crew. Not impossible though...

I don't know how long it took them to stab pilots on Sept 11 either. Perhaps one of the crew was part of it?

It would have been about the same phase of flight though, and still a lot of fuel in the plane for an attack.

Or maybe the plane climbed during a struggle, and combined with 45000 ft altitude and erratic flying forces, the structure broke a hole in the plane... and it just flew off with everyone passed out. no bomb needed to cause that damage...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:53:31 and read 47782 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 100):
Here are a few points (which we all know) taken from an article in a Sydney newspaper yesterday:
* Authorities know someone disabled ACARS at 0107.
* About 14 mins later the transponder was shut down.
* I quote: "The fact that they went dark separately is strong evidence that the plane's disappearance was deliberate".
* The final words, which the co-pilot is believed to have spoken, were spoken after ACARS went offline.
* I quote: "Whoever spoke did not mention any trouble on board, seemingly misleading ground control".

This is old data that has been corrected.

Please read

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
Sanity Check

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-17 16:54:45 and read 47892 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 112):
At what point would the lack of finding any debris in the ocean lead people to conclusively believe the plane was on land somewhere (crashed or landed or see next paragraph)? Surely at some point a lifejacket, a suitcase, etc. would be spotted or wash up on shore. I read the currents in the Indian Ocean can be 15km/h, that's 1000+ miles easily by now. When does it become suspicious? 2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months,...? I'm not talking about the whole wreckage, just any shread of floating debris that likely came from MH 370.

I'd say after 3 months, if nothing is found, you could say with some confidence it probably did not crash into the ocean. I say that because there should be lots of debris that floats, not just 1 or 2 items.

Naturally, whoever landed at some remote airport is probably filling a boat with seat cushions and suitcases to be scattered in the middle of the Indian Ocean as a diversion.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 16:55:36 and read 47548 times.

Quoting drew777 (Reply 108):
They've already retracted that. The system reports every 30 minutes. They know it was turned off after 1:07 because that is when it sent the last update.
Quoting edmountain (Reply 110):
No, this was misinformation from the Malaysian PM. Last transmission was at 0107h but it's unknown when ACARS became disabled.

Okay. So, it is possible that ACARS and the transponder were switched off or went down at the same time?

It is still possible that there were hijackers in the cockpit telling the pilots what to do. I'm just trying to work out what is most likely: pilot suicide, pilot involvement in a hijacking, or hijacking without pilot involvement.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 16:57:46 and read 47435 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 106):
Have "they" completely ruled out the possibility that the plane was destroyed (for whatever reason) and came down in the vicinity of where contact was lost ...IE.: the 40 minutes after departure? Is anybody still searching in that area, or has it been called off, with everyone looking somewhere west?

I think the SATCOM pings rule that out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DiscoverCSG
Posted 2014-03-17 17:01:44 and read 47114 times.

Quoting AT (Reply 38):
There is absolutely no way any insurance company would pay out any policy in the present circumstances-

Unless a court ordered the payout after a lawsuit from the survivors.

Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 91):
2. Re: Cell phones - which I have heard alternatively "debunked" on this forum, and made "relevant" on this forum - I do not buy for a second that not one person on board saw them cross that low back over the Peninsula (presumably at a low altitude) and didn't at least attempt to turn on their phone. Think of all these employees from Freescale Semiconductor on board. Had they been able and felt threatened, tech types would grab for their phone to see if they had reception. I know I would if I was alive and able. I don't see any way in any of these scenario's, mechanical or otherwise that these passengers would not have attempted to make contact with the outside world had they been able to.

It's been widely theorized that the climb to FL440 served to kill the passengers. Not even today's smartphones turn on if their operators are dead.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 99):
If it had been hijacked though, why not use it again right away. Everyone is on the lookout now.

That's precisely why they don't use it again right away. They wait until we all relax about this and get obsessed with the next big thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 17:05:12 and read 46779 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 118):
Okay. So, it is possible that ACARS and the transponder were switched off or went down at the same time?

It is still possible that there were hijackers in the cockpit telling the pilots what to do. I'm just trying to work out what is most likely: pilot suicide, pilot involvement in a hijacking, or hijacking without pilot involvement.

Yes, it's still possible but unlike yesterday the evidence does not clearly implicate whoever made that transmission.

Of your three possibilities, I think hijacking without pilot involvement seems unlikely because only two minutes elapsed between the last transmission and the transponder being turned off. I think a struggle would last longer. (Exceptions: short struggle, communication made under duress, etc.)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: LXLucien
Posted 2014-03-17 17:07:19 and read 46673 times.

Quoting mafi29 (Reply 4):
What about the contrail of the aircraft? Shouldn't it be visible on images from meteorological satellites? At least in the infra red channels (as it was night)?

They can spot small cells of clouds but a contrail is almost too small and is very hard to identify.

From what I've learned, contrails can be detected at a wavelength of 11.45 µm...
EUMETSAT has a Satellite at about the position of the one detecting the SATCOM Pings (?)
You can see the images here:
http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-a...CONT=world&CREG=awif&BIG=1

The wavelength from what I've seen is 11.5 µm, but as you can see yourself, no chance of detecting contrails.
I don't know what's the original resolution of these images at EUMETSAT ...maybe with VeryHQ Images, but I highly doubt it!

Good idea, but as you can see not that easy

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 17:09:21 and read 46526 times.

That window from 0119 until 0121 could be almost four minutes, or as short as just over one minute.

Raiding a cockpit and stabbing a pilot or pilots would be tried quickly I would think.

And if they did it five or ten minutes later, it could have been just the same, but maybe by then it would have been after the plane would have called into the Vietnam ATC Sector, then a takeover... So there would have been plenty of windows for a start time of the takeover, it did not have to be just then.

I just think since it was right between ATC facilities, that makes it possible that a crew member may have been involved.

I think a struggle forcing plane to climb may have been revolting passengers later.

[Edited 2014-03-17 17:13:18]

[Edited 2014-03-17 17:16:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-17 17:10:22 and read 46546 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 114):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine a B777 (with all it's anti collision lights and transponder switched off!) flying in the shadow of another B777 at night would be lit up like a Christmas tree, by the lead B777's powerful tail strobe light. How traffic flying in the opposite direction could miss such a sight is hard to imagine.

Several pilots have said that such a manoeuvre is impossible anyway but for a very short time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 17:12:05 and read 46275 times.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 120):
It's been widely theorized that the climb to FL440 served to kill the passengers. Not even today's smartphones turn on if their operators are dead.

I think it was reported to be 45K but the data supporting this are weak at best. In any event, it's neither necessary nor sufficient to climb to 45K (or 44K) to kill the passengers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: laurco
Posted 2014-03-17 17:13:19 and read 46208 times.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 64):
Don't you think the Israeli Central Intelligence Agency (Mossad) has more information then published in this forum? I am pretty sure they won't raise the level to its highest if is likely MH370 crashed somewhere in the Indian Ocean...

I do, and I would think they would have raised levels shortly after the incident. Not just for the missing aircraft, but what if there are other similar plots being planned. I haven't seen much discussion of that but that has to be a (likely remote) possibility, given we essentially know very little hard facts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 17:14:01 and read 46510 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 121):
Of your three possibilities, I think hijacking without pilot involvement seems unlikely because only two minutes elapsed between the last transmission and the transponder being turned off. I think a struggle would last longer.

Maybe there was no struggle at all and the pilots were killed pretty much instantly?

If the hijackers knew how to fly the 777, then all they would need is one of the real pilot's voices to talk to ATC - not even a hijacker could pull that off and a different person speaking to ATC would eventually be found out. After the pilots were no longer needed, which would have been right after the last verbal ATC communication, they could have been taken out. That would not take two mins...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-17 17:14:39 and read 46279 times.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 120):
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 99):If it had been hijacked though, why not use it again right away. Everyone is on the lookout now.
That's precisely why they don't use it again right away. They wait until we all relax about this and get obsessed with the next big thing.

I don't agree with that also. I hate to say it, but:

- I don't think relax will come; even if this situation delays weeks. This is one of the most thrilling aviation episodes if not the most

- If all this a sequenced terrorist plan (as it seems, at least for me), AND THE PLAN IS TO REPEAT A FLIGHT UNDERSHADOWED BY ANOTHER PLANE, I think time goes against the plan, and authorities should take very seriously this possibility.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-17 17:16:53 and read 46157 times.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 120):
That's precisely why they don't use it again right away. They wait until we all relax about this and get obsessed with the next big thing.

Who are "they" anyways? Naturally, as Americans, we'd point to the usual suspects. But, I hope, after over a decade of war and the removal of their leadership, we've dismantled Al Qaeda to the point that they wouldn't be able to plan an attack exponentially more sophisticated compared to 9/11. No terrorist org goes through this much trouble to steal an aircraft in such a public way without a specific target in mind. I still find this scenario extremely hard to believe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2014-03-17 17:23:44 and read 45838 times.

Has anyone actually sat down and worked out whether a 777-200 with 7hrs of fuel and a decent load of passengers and bags can even fly up to 45,000? The only time I see the FMC giving certified max altitude as the FMC max altitude (FL431) is when we are very light on a short flight. I am not convinced MH370 could physically make it up to 45,000 although I've never flown a 777-200ER so don't have data for it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-17 17:25:11 and read 45482 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 129):
No terrorist org goes through this much trouble to steal an aircraft in such a public way without a specific target in mind. I still find this scenario extremely hard to believe.

I would have told you the same before this missing flight.

But the whole pack of data we have (7 hrs. flying after many systems falling without explanation, together with no debris findings, no calls from passengers, etc. etc). make any other theory at least as hard to believe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-17 17:25:33 and read 45794 times.

Mitchell Casado, the guy running the aircraft simulator on CNN, has been working around the clock. Anybody else notice?

[Edited 2014-03-17 17:31:32]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 17:26:02 and read 45335 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 128):
I don't think relax will come; even if this situation delays weeks. This is one of the most thrilling aviation episodes if not the most

Unless you know or were related to somebody involved or are an aviation geek, then I do believe a 'relax' will come. The average person who did not have a relative on the plane or was not an aviation geek will eventually think more and more about other things until the mystery of flight MH370 falls so far into the back of their mind that only hearing about it on the news will trigger them to remember it. That is reality... This event has gone from a headline taking up half the news to a minute long update halfway through the news (maybe not in Malaysia though)... It will do the same in the average persons mind...

However, the theory of keeping the plane being hidden for future use has to consider:

1) How long could a plane be kept unused before flying again assuming that there are no proper 777 mechanics with the plane to do the usual checks.

2) How certain would somebody be that they would be able to fly undetected again on their next mission? I'd assume that surveillance would be increased in certain areas because of this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tangowhisky
Posted 2014-03-17 17:26:31 and read 45255 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 76):
The aircraft could land in 6000 ft, or much less at high risk.

Is that at MLW (max landing weight)? I am guessing with little fuel on board, and close to MZFW,it could stop in less distance.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
A 777 can be programed to follow a series of way-point automatically - this is normal operating procedure and a 777 pilot would need no extra practice/training to do it. (Relevant to pilot flight simulator ownership)

Agreed. But a simulator allows you to find the right balance between saving fuel, staying off radar, and verify the plan every step of the way. Sure you can prepare a cheat sheet with way points from maps, but a hijacking of this magnitude must have been checked, I also think that going public on social media about his simulator was part of his plan.

There are lot's of conspiracy theories out there. But there needs to be a leading theory, and to me it was the captain. I may be wrong but given the skill this airplane was operated under, his wife and kids moving out the day before, and the simulator point to him over the other 238 people in the plane at this point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: airbuseric
Posted 2014-03-17 17:26:35 and read 45503 times.

Israel tightens air security level immediately in relation to the missing MH370 aircraft:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03...pt-israel-to-tighten-air-security/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: asmvpgold
Posted 2014-03-17 17:28:09 and read 45258 times.

On the whole jet shadowing theory to avoid radar.... I sort of wonder if on a normal night (before all this happened) if a WN flight from LAX to DEN occasionally showed up as two blips really close together on the primary radar screen would anyone have noticed?... and if they did, would they do anything about it? It would only show as the one WN plane on secondary radar, right? I picked this route since there is a lot of military activities and monitoring. I'm just not convinced that for a routine late night flight anyone sitting in front of a radar screen would scramble fighters for what appears to be a possible radar glitch. I hope I am wrong.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 17:32:28 and read 44758 times.

Quoting asmvpgold (Reply 136):

On the whole jet shadowing theory to avoid radar.... I sort of wonder if on a normal night (before all this happened) if a WN flight from LAX to DEN occasionally showed up as two blips really close together on the primary radar screen would anyone have noticed?... and if they did, would they do anything about it? It would only show as the one WN plane on secondary radar, right? I picked this route since there is a lot of military activities and monitoring. I'm just not convinced that for a routine late night flight anyone sitting in front of a radar screen would scramble fighters for what appears to be a possible radar glitch. I hope I am wrong.

But if it is archived.... it would be looked at. If Malaysia has their data archived, there are many people reviewing the radar images... they would see an approaching primary target on review later... I would think any modern radar would be archived.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 17:34:34 and read 44686 times.

Quoting jpsnaggs (Reply 91):
I am very bothered by the Southern Arc, the top most point seems too close (relative to the other points) to where the a/c actually started? Am I correct in interpreting it this way?

Seems that way but then the airplane could have flown in circles.

I think it's important to understand that the two arcs are derived strictly from how far the airplane was from the one satellite that picked up the last "ping." The satellite has no directional capability. The strictly distance measures would have produced a circle on the ground beneath the satellite's location in geosynchronous orbit. Large parts of this circle were ruled out because adjacent satellites in the constellation whose coverage overlaps the first one did not detect the last "ping" at 08:11L.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2014-03-17 17:34:45 and read 44630 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 134):

Don't know. Not my words...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 17:36:30 and read 44554 times.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 134):
his wife and kids moving out the day before

I think this was debunked long ago.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-17 17:38:13 and read 44462 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 140):

i'm watching cnn and they just said nothing has been confirmed about the family moving out the day before.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 17:43:54 and read 44043 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 141):
i'm watching cnn and they just said nothing has been confirmed about the family moving out the day before.

OK, thanks. I wonder how, after 8 days, something like that can't be confirmed. I'm beginning to think they're going to find a crashed airplane one of these days and the 33 parts to this thread are all going to be seen to have been generated solely as a result of the authorities being unable to confirm anything.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: cialome
Posted 2014-03-17 17:45:42 and read 44088 times.

Some interesting articles:


WNYC - Malaysia Airlines Flight 370: Runways in Range
http://project.wnyc.org/runways/?utm..._source=nextdraft&utm_medium=email



History of planes that vanished
http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives..._source=nextdraft&utm_medium=email


The pilot's politics - common sense, not zealotry
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._source=nextdraft&utm_medium=email

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-17 17:48:09 and read 43501 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 129):
No terrorist org goes through this much trouble to steal an aircraft in such a public way without a specific target in mind. I still find this scenario extremely hard to believe.

Totally Agreed. We can see the things this other way for perspective: If I'm a terrorist and I want a big aircraft to attack the US, or any other country for that matter, and I already know how to fly a big jet, there are hundreds of ways much more easy or comfortable to do that compared with hijaking a Malaysian aircraft full of people, and, If my intention is not being detected, there are better options. Victorville is full of planes, some of them in flying condition, stealing and hidding one of those will get much less attention, or I can try to hijack and vanish a Freighter , where I'm not worrying about some of the 200 passengers sending a message or activating the locator of the Smartphone, I kill the flight crew and that's it....
Looking for the most complex and incredible explanations is usually the wrong way...

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-17 17:52:54 and read 43258 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 144):
Totally Agreed. We can see the things this other way for perspective: If I'm a terrorist and I want a big aircraft to attack the US, or any other country for that matter, and I already know how to fly a big jet, there are hundreds of ways much more easy or comfortable to do that compared with hijaking a Malaysian aircraft full of people, and, If my intention is not being detected, there are better options. Victorville is full of planes, some of them in flying condition, stealing and hidding one of those will get much less attention, or I can try to hijack and vanish a Freighter , where I'm not worrying about some of the 200 passengers sending a message or activating the locator of the Smartphone, I kill the flight crew and that's it....
Looking for the most complex and incredible explanations is usually the wrong way...

I think you're forgetting the psychological factor behind 250 people disappearing. Sure a plane disappearing from Victorville is scary, but chances are ATC is going to know where it is and the Air Force will blow it out of the sky if it is a threat. A passenger plane loaded with innocent people just disappearing is scary. When it was revealed that someone purposely did this it got even scarier. They are doing exactly what they want, scaring people. If they are planning to use the aircraft for some other event, this fear before the act is just icing on the cake.
Pat

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: TheRedBAron
Posted 2014-03-17 17:55:02 and read 43037 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 100):

I see some interesting points in your post and I will add these, because quite frankly I like to play the devil advocate here:

3 things strike me as fundamental in understanding that both pilots may NOT be involved.

1) the captain was not scheduled to fly he did so on a moments notice, such a tragic plan and suicide is not something off the cuff.
2) It has been said that the Copilot is son of a high ranking official, so I dont think he has a good motive to suicide.
3) The captain is a aviation geek, and has the (bad) history of letting strangers to the cockpit.

In the aftermath of the loss of communication and change of course, both pilots knew overflying the peninsula would raise some concern and hairs on authorities, and also flying at a weird altitude (if true) 29 500 feet would raise suspicions. I dont think they overflew the peninsula at a low altitude at night and on a moonless day.... its way too risky and difficult, and if your ultimate goal is suicide its way too complex and hard to execute without somebody doing something about it.

If he wanted to crash the P towers, he would have taken off and gone straight there to make a political statement, no way he would do so many things and fly for 2 hours.

My bets are someone MADE the pilots do all we know (thus far) and they made slight "errors" like flying at a weird altitude to leave breadcrumbs, goverment agencies must know a lot more than what we know and let the media and public at large get closure....I think they ail blame the pilots, and the T7 will not be found.

TRB

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 17:57:10 and read 43022 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 144):
Victorville is full of planes, some of them in flying condition, stealing and hidding one of those will get much less attention

Anyone who can steal, say, a 747 from Victorville is going to get front page coverage.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 144):
or I can try to hijack and vanish a Freighter

How do you get on the freighter to begin with?

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 144):
not worrying about some of the 200 passengers sending a message or activating the locator of the Smartphone

If you get caught in the act at least you have 200+ hostages to keep them from shooting you down.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-17 17:58:09 and read 43012 times.

I hate to be glib, but I do find the response of the Taliban in being asked if they'd done it - "We wish".

As per: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/98...ban-know-nothing-about-missing-jet

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-17 18:00:12 and read 42661 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 144):
Totally Agreed. We can see the things this other way for perspective: If I'm a terrorist and I want a big aircraft to attack the US, or any other country for that matter, and I already know how to fly a big jet, there are hundreds of ways much more easy or comfortable to do that compared with hijaking a Malaysian aircraft full of people, and, If my intention is not being detected, there are better options. Victorville is full of planes, some of them in flying condition, stealing and hidding one of those will get much less attention, or I can try to hijack and vanish a Freighter , where I'm not worrying about some of the 200 passengers sending a message or activating the locator of the Smartphone, I kill the flight crew and that's it....
Looking for the most complex and incredible explanations is usually the wrong way...

Rgds.
G.

I'm not convinced that whoever took it wants the plane. I think disappearing without a trace might be the point. It's a pretty powerful statement to say (by implication, of course): "We took a loaded 777 from a major airline and we made it vanish into thin air. You have no idea how we did it, and you don't even know who we are, so you have no idea if or when we might do it again. Oh, and by the way, since you don't know where the plane is, you don't know if we still have it and the passengers. Neener-neener-neener."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 18:00:22 and read 42694 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 117):
Naturally, whoever landed at some remote airport is probably filling a boat with seat cushions and suitcases to be scattered in the middle of the Indian Ocean as a diversion.  

You posted it with a smiley - but in fact, it is a good point

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 118):
Okay. So, it is possible that ACARS and the transponder were switched off or went down at the same time?

Yes. We know that ACARS was disabled between 11:07 and 11:37. We don't know when during that period. Don't know means don't know so any time is as probable as any other.

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 120):
It's been widely theorized that the climb to FL440 served to kill the passengers. Not even today's smartphones turn on if their operators are dead.

The 'climb to 44K to kill the passengers' makes no technical sense. It is the altitude INSIDE the plane, not outside.

See the oxygen and pressurization part of the sanity check

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 130):
and bags can even fly up to 45,000?

The general consensus is - no to barely and temporarily.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 134):
Agreed. But a simulator allows you to find the right balance between saving fuel, staying off radar, and verify the plan every step of the way.

I'm not sure the models for the 777 in Flight Simulator X are that good. I think calculation based on Boeing manuals is better.

Quoting hivue (Reply 142):
OK, thanks. I wonder how, after 8 days, something like that can't be confirmed.

I think it has been confirmed to be untrue

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: trex8
Posted 2014-03-17 18:00:43 and read 42733 times.

Is this the first indication of the cargo on board besides the Li batteries?

"
Planes will be searching for any signs of the kind of debris that might float to the surface in a crash. Ahmad, the Malaysia Airlines CEO, said the plane had no unusual cargo, though he said it was carrying several tons of mangosteens, a purple tropical fruit."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia...f-all-on-board-missing-boeing-777/

I love mangosteens and they are impossible to find in the US midwest but they aren't worth dying for!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 18:01:26 and read 42876 times.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 146):
3) and has the (bad) history of letting strangers to the cockpit.

I think that was the first officer.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-17 18:01:37 and read 42968 times.

Wonder if it could be as simple as the flight attendant delivering drinks somehow killing the two pilots and locking the door, maybe allowing an accomplice in the flight deck. I'm having a hard time accepting hijack theories since they'd have to disable the pilots very quickly, before the pilots could send out a distress call. Obviously if you have someone trying to knock the door down you probably have enough time to contact ATC

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: damirc
Posted 2014-03-17 18:01:40 and read 43046 times.

Well, this has been bugging me extensively... ^^

It's my opinion that a technical malfunction is unlikely (must be somewhat odd of a malfunction to keep the aircraft flying for 7,5 hours), you may disagree and this is perfectly fine.

I can not fathom this being done without the complicity of one of the flightcrew. I doubt both of them were in on 'it' due to the fact that they were rostered and did not have any hand in the lot they were dealt (as in who the other guy on the flight crew will be that night). The timing of the TCAS and ADS-B going offline just after hand off from KL to HCM speaks strongly of a well planned operation. Due to the fact that last ATC contact was done by the f/o we know he was alive and well at that point. We do not know the same about the captain, but quite honestly, I don't believe the f/o was able to pull this off (and this might be my biggest miscalculation).

So in the timeframe between the last communication with ATC and TCAS and ADS off something has happened. I deem it probable that one of the flight crew incapacitated the other (would be the only explanation why no further communication was received and we've basically decided that both crew probably were not complicit in this). Think of it - they've basically gone off frequency from KL, the PNF (ie: the f/o) is now busy selecting the new frequency and the chance of an unwanted communication is low. Due to the stage of flight (early cruise) it wouldn't be too surprising for the PF to announce a visit to the loo and getting up (IIRC this would involve one of the cabin crew replacing the captain on the flight deck so this should've been communicated to the cabin) which would allow for the opportunity for the captain to overpower the first officer (or vice versa, I do think it's improbably that the f/o would be able to pull this off, but the possibility is there). Now here is where we run into a snag.

Should this hypothetical overpowering have happened then by this time the cabin crew is aware something is amiss on the flight deck (or the complicit flight crew got up announced, but that would surely have raised an eyebrow with the other guy - I don't think it would make a lot of sense to fight from one seat to the next). So with the other flight crew now disabled the hijacker now owns the plane. With the post 9/11 flight deck security noone should be able to get in, so he can commence with his plan - disable all comms, set a new destination (for starters what seems to be a heading back towards the MY mainland). I don't believe they were trailling SQ68 (no amount of planning could make certain that SQ68 would be at that spot at that exact time) but probably just counted on noone thinking too much about one more airplane in a commercial corridor (and it seems they're bet was right on - those who had the ability didn't react).

Where the thing gets hairy is considering why/how the cabin crew/passenger would've been able to counteract this hijacking (if they had not detected it right then, they had to eventually figure out something was well off). If nothing else (if it was indeed a hijacking with the airplane landing someplace) they would've phoned someplace once the airplane got low enough - which we know they did not. That leaves us with either they never landed but crashed, they've landed where no cell phone coverage exists (low chance in my opinion - if they have an airplane they're bound to have cell phone coverage?!) or someone else was in on it and collected the cell phones (and kept the cabin in check for the flight duration).

Now if the last option should be true (someone complicit amongst the passengers) their help can be summoned quite easily from the flight deck (captain does an innocent "well, here's captain so-and-so etc." and peppers it with a go keyword). So how does one get control of the cabin? Easiest would probably be from the front and back at the same time - so checking the history of passengers in hte first few rows in C and the last few rows in Y would make sense to see if they have had any kind of contact with either of the flight crew. A good qualifier to discard unnecessary searches would be figuring out who booked their tickets after the flight crew were aware of their rosters (and specifically their allocation to this flight).

If the plane had actually landed we also need someone complicit on the "receiving" end, but here it definitely gets too weird. I wouldn't deem Iran had any interest in this (they've just somewhat normalized their relations towards the rest of the world, I doubt they need any wrath from China at this time). Considering Chinese citizens were the majority on the flight (and the destination being PEK) the Uighurs are a possiblity. I do presume that the Chinese are seriously investigating any kind of links between either of the flight crew and someone from the ... how do I say it nicely ... terrorist persuasion?

Well. That's my 0.02€ worth. The complicit passenger crew might not be necessary if someone can ensure that no cell phone coverage will exist near the destination airport (so you only need someone in the position to sabotage a few cell phone towers at a certain time), but it makes the devious plan safer by being certain noone will enter the flight deck. Being a lone hijacker against 237 people behind you wouldn't probably make sense considering these 237 people had ample time to figure out how to get into the flight deck.

D.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 18:01:43 and read 42872 times.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 146):
The captain is a aviation geek, and has the (bad) history of letting strangers to the cockpit.

I don't believe there's any evidence of this for the captain, only the FO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 18:02:55 and read 42940 times.

A different article about one of the pax:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201...ating-flight-engineer-s-background

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-17 18:04:27 and read 42667 times.

Given the Captain is an aviation geek, that describes people here.....how many of the "geeks" here would wildly let people in the cockpit for giggles?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-17 18:13:26 and read 42010 times.

Damirc: Fascinating hypothesis.

There are several points where I question your assumptions though.

For example, when you say this:

Quoting damirc (Reply 154):
I don't believe they were trailling SQ68 (no amount of planning could make certain that SQ68 would be at that spot at that exact time)

it sounds as though the plan (if there was one) was to shadow that flight specifically.

If the shadowing theory is right, then I would see the shadowing as having been much more opportunistic.

At that time of night, there will be several flights heading up from Singapore to Europe across India, and any of them would be okay if the destination of MH370 was somewhere in central Asia (i.e. short of the final destination).

This assumes that the person in control of MH370 either has access to information about take off times from SIN while in the air, or there is sufficient visual clarity on the night to wait at a waypoint and await the arrival of a flight from SIN - at which point, maybe my assumptions need to be questioned.

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:14:25]

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:15:32]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2014-03-17 18:13:46 and read 41976 times.

I would like to think we are being kept out of the loop of things for several reasons. One scenario could be that communications have been established, and negotiations are happening. It would be dangerous to let the public know, as the media would do anything they could to get involved with a story like this. We know governments can throw up smoke screens to keep us busy chasing theories, while dealing with the source directly.

While I have lost hope that anyone from that flight is alive..... But a part of me is praying and hoping for a miracle. I keep waking up every morning hoping to see the plane has been found, and all passengers alive and well.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SimonDanger
Posted 2014-03-17 18:14:51 and read 41827 times.

Someone help me out with this one: If we assume that the U.S. has spy satellites with infrared sensing capabilities, and that the EGT of these engines (RR Trent 800?) is maybe 1,000+ degrees F, compared to low background temps, then what are the chances of an archieved sat. image being stored somewhere? Or are these types of satellites only tasked on specific missions? I've read somewhere else that we do have satellites which are capable of picking up missile launches anywhere in the world.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 18:15:44 and read 42283 times.

This is really weird. I heard over the news about 6 30 a.m that there were five runaways in the Capt's sim program. One in Sri Lanka, two in India, One in Maldives and (inaudible). All about 1500meter long. And now I am searching the source and couldn't find it. Anyone heard about it?

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:16:29]

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:17:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-17 18:17:49 and read 41745 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1

Fantastic summary, many thanks.

Quoting gregorous (Reply 98):

Quoting k83713 (Reply 5):
Another thread. I wonder which number will be the last for this topic...
42

hehehe, Douglas Adams must be watching from above.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 114):
B777 (with all it's anti collision lights and transponder switched off!)

Can you turn off the strobes at night in the air?

Question: Doesn't the fact that the plane was at the SAME distance from this satellite for 7hours seem entirely UNLIKELY? [I'm assuming that the distance inferred from the pings is always the same, or we would be looking at several different arcs on all the news shows maps?]. You would either have to be on the ground, or flying in a very tight circle, or flying a route that kept you at the exact same distance from a satellite - very improbable. THis would subsequently imply that the plane is closer than we think. I would have thought even then second ping showing the exact same distance from the satellite is improbably.....or am i missing something?

[This may have been covered, but haven't seen it in the 27 threads i've read]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-17 18:23:07 and read 41065 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 162):
Question: Doesn't the fact that the plane was at the SAME distance from this satellite for 7hours seem entirely UNLIKELY?

That only correlated to the last ping.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rc135x
Posted 2014-03-17 18:24:19 and read 41262 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 114):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine a B777 (with all it's anti collision lights and transponder switched off!) flying in the shadow of another B777 at night would be lit up like a Christmas tree, by the lead B777's powerful tail strobe light. How traffic flying in the opposite direction could miss such a sight is hard to imagine.

A big danger however would come when the lead B777 performs a step climb I imagine the aircrafts angle of attack would send the aircrafts jet wash down towards the trailling B777, creating some severe turbulance and the chance of a flame out of one, if not both engines. And speaking of turbulance, if the lead B777 hits CAT, then the last place I would want to be is in the wake of another Heavy.

One question. In a Military in-flight refueling scenario, is the Tanker flown manually or on autopilot. I cant imagine for one moment a trailing fighter would refuel while on autopilot.

1. If the unlit trailing 777 is 250 feet below and a half mile behind the lead 777 then the lower airplane will not be illuminated by the lead 777's lights. Also the passing observing pilot would need to search actively to see the trailing airplane. "We don't see what we're not looking for."

2. A "steep climb" capable of inducing this kind of jet wash is not within the normal cruise climb envelope of a large airplane. Besides, if the trailing 777 is > half mile behind and 250 below the wake turbulence will pass beneath it. Even when in the refueling envelope and in contact, the tanker routinely makes 30-degree banked turns and can climb or descend (especially if asked to toboggan).

3. The tanker is usually autopilot ON, but it is not required. To qualify as a heavy jet receiver pilot (I cannot speak for the fast jet qualification regs) the contact must be for 30 mins with the tanker autopilot OFF and no more than 2 disconnects. For a long time ca 1989-92 USAF KC-135s had serious autopilot problems, and nearly all air refueling was done with the tanker autopilot OFF. Needless to say the receiver is always autopilot OFF.

Quoting na (Reply 124):
Several pilots have said that such a manoeuvre is impossible anyway but for a very short time.

Flying in the air refueling envelope 50 feet behind and below the tanker is not what the theorists are suggesting. A condensed and inverted version of normal military cell formation (500 feet, 1 mile) would work just fine, say 250 feet vertical and a half mile in trail. The trailing 777 uses its autopilot to hold altitude and heading, and the pilot uses visual cues to maintain lateral separation. I have dragged 2 KC-135s behind me like this in radio- and emission-silence for >1,000 miles at night more than once.

Irrespective of the credibility of the theory that MH370 shadowed an SQ or KLM 777, this is not a complex or overly demanding procedure. An experienced pilot could do this with minimal burden.

edit: corrected typo

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:33:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-17 18:29:00 and read 40957 times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...malaysia-airlines-flight.html?_r=0

"Instead of manually operating the plane’s controls, whoever altered Flight 370’s path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee-high pedestal between the captain and the first officer, according to officials. The Flight Management System, as the computer is known, directs the plane from point to point specified in the flight plan submitted before each flight. It is not clear whether the plane’s path was reprogrammed before or after it took off."

How could they have such specific information?

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:30:11]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SimonDanger
Posted 2014-03-17 18:34:26 and read 40244 times.

If I were investigating this event, and by extension the pilots, I would be over-laying a map with all the flight paths the pilots have flown in the last two years in that region under the northern arc. I'd be looking for correlations between certain "stan" countries, flight paths and moth-balled military air fields.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: crazyguineapig
Posted 2014-03-17 18:34:44 and read 40361 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 161):

Being from Malaysia, you bring some freshness to this thread. Thanks for your input. Did you hear of this over TV or radio?

The thing is, it might be possible that the runways "saved" on his sim were actual regularly-served destinations of Malaysia Airlines (apparently MH does fly to the Maldives, right?). If the runways in his simulator were indeed those of regular Malaysian destinations, it would be difficult to find any anomaly of practice.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2014-03-17 18:35:47 and read 40190 times.

Great summary rcair1, but the following statement requires qualification:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
•The discussions of climbing to 45K to "disable" the passengers really is not relevant unless you assume the a/c has had a major breech in the hull that full depressurizes it.

If the airplane were to climb to FL410 or FL430 with engine bleed air shut down and the outflow valves opened, the cabin would depressurize to those levels. No hull breach would be necessary.

As you note, all passengers not pressure breathing O2 would be unconscious in less than 30 seconds. If the cabin remained unpressurized after a subsequent descent to FL300 or FL350, it is doubtful that any passenger would regain consciousness.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rc135x
Posted 2014-03-17 18:36:14 and read 40094 times.

Quoting rc135x (Reply 164):
If the unlit trailing 777 is 250 feet below and a half mile behind the lead 777 then the lower airplane will not be illuminated by the lead 777's lights.

To be even clearer the trailing 777 would preferentially be 250 feet ABOVE the lead 777, avoiding all turbulence.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 18:36:26 and read 40138 times.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 146):
the captain was not scheduled to fly he did so on a moments notice

I did not know this. I knew that the pilots did not request to work together though...

If true, somebody at ops might have wanted to place that Captain on that particular flight as his political background / simulator would attract / divert attention...

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 152):
Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 146):
3) and has the (bad) history of letting strangers to the cockpit.

I think that was the first officer.

True. It was the FO who was the FO on another flight when two women were entertained in the cockpit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 18:39:16 and read 39838 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 161):
I heard over the news about 6 30 a.m that there were five runaways in the Capt's sim program.

MSFS X has more than 20,000 airports, many with more than one runway.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: asmvpgold
Posted 2014-03-17 18:40:01 and read 40095 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 161):
La

He was using Microsoft Flight Simulator... it has pretty much every Airport/runway in the world... even tiny backyard landing strips. I don't think that's much of a discovery. I really wish people would get off this "the captain had a flight sim"... that's not weird, strange, or anything odd. But as good as Flight Sim is it really has very little value to a seasoned 777 driver with regards to planning something like this. It might help a novice pilot learn how the systems work, etc...but no way is that valuable (for planning an event like this) to someone who sits in the left seat all day. And I'll add that MSFS doesn't have accurate radar or ATC coverage.. so it's not like he could fly a route to see if he dodged radar, etc. A map or an ipad with an aviation app would be far more useful than Microsoft flight sim.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: damirc
Posted 2014-03-17 18:40:32 and read 39638 times.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 158):
it sounds as though the plan (if there was one) was to shadow that flight specifically.
If the shadowing theory is right, then I would see the shadowing as having been much more opportunistic.

It's possible that it was planned (the shadowing bit) entirely opportunistic, considering some amount of the traffic encountered near IGARI would go towards the wanted destination (at least initially until they're outside the range of well-known radars (well-known to the hijacker, not me or you).

D:

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 18:41:01 and read 39591 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 165):
How could they have such specific information?

I think they're assuming it based on how the FMS would be used in a routine flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dreamflight767
Posted 2014-03-17 18:41:10 and read 39741 times.

We keep saying that it couldn't have crashed because no debris has been found. But what if it landed in the water Hudson River style; the aircraft landed in one piece and sank?

Fly it for 7 hours in the opposite direction to throw off and be further away from rescuers (we also know there is far less radar coverage over the Indian Ocean and the ocean is deeper in that part of the world, etc.) burn off fuel to lighten the load and eliminate any trace of jet A in the water. Yes, you could jettison the fuel, but than you are closer to being found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 18:42:20 and read 39444 times.

Post retracted to reflect the new information found in reply 179. Thank you.

[Edited 2014-03-17 19:03:50]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 18:42:23 and read 39731 times.

Quoting rc135x (Reply 169):
To be even clearer the trailing 777 would preferentially be 250 feet ABOVE the lead 777, avoiding all turbulence.

Could they save fuel by doing this, like slip streaming?

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 165):
How could they have such specific information?

The internet?

Quoting Tapir (Reply 161):
This is really weird. I heard over the news about 6 30 a.m that there were five runaways in the Capt's sim program. One in Sri Lanka, two in India, One in Maldives and (inaudible). All about 1500meter long. And now I am searching the source and couldn't find it. Anyone heard about it?

A source would be great... But I'd doubt it until it was confirmed by authorities.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 18:44:44 and read 39461 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 162):
[This may have been covered, but haven't seen it in the 27 threads i've read]

See my post 138 above in this part.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 18:46:58 and read 39642 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 177):
A source would be great... But I'd doubt it until it was confirmed by authorities.

Ok got the source. It is in Malay. Please use google translation.

ialah Lapangan Terbang Antarabangsa Male di Maldives, sebuah lapangan terbang milik Amerika Syarikat (Diego Garcia) serta tiga lagi landasan di India dan Sri Lanka, yang semuanya mempunyai jarak landasan 1,000 meter.”

http://www.bharian.com.my/bharian/ar...SANDALAMSIMULATORDISIASAT/Article/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-17 18:47:01 and read 39376 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 106):
My very basic question is:Have "they" completely ruled out the possibility that the plane was destroyed (for whatever reason) and came down in the vicinity of where contact was lost ...IE.: the 40 minutes after departure? Is anybody still searching in that area, or has it been called off, with everyone looking somewhere west?

The area was searched extensively on the first day, and later. There was no debris found, no oil slicks, etc.

That is very conclusive evidence that the aircraft did not crash near that location.

An aircraft hitting the water is going to create floating debris. An aircraft with that much fuel onboard will create a slick.

Quoting dreamflight767 (Reply 175):
the aircraft landed in one piece and sank?

Even a very intact aircraft such as US1549 created floating debris and a fuel slick on the Hudson River - remember one engine was ripped off on landing spilling fuel out of the wing. After the aircraft sank in over 50 feet of water, fuel and debris bubbled up for days until the aircraft was raised.

Not finding anything in the first couple days is about as certain as possible that the aircraft did not go down at that location.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the current oceanic search is that it is almost impossible that any aircraft debris has stayed together enough after 10 days to even be identifiable from the air or a ship search. A few very dispersed items might be located which could be firmly linked to the aircraft. But very, very slim chance that a debris field could be found with sufficient density to lead searchers to a crash location.

Remember the AF447 time line.

Day 1 - approx. 15 hours after the crash - first floating debris field spotted by search aircraft.
Day 3 - Brazilian Navy ships start to recover floating debris
Day 5 - first two bodies recovered (eventually 50 were recovered)

Among the debris recovered were the vertical fin, much of a galley, part of a crew rest area along with a lot of seat cushions, and other expected debris.

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:50:46]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 18:49:11 and read 39441 times.

If it is true that the pilot was called up at the last minute, and did not request to be seated next to that first officer, that puts a giant hole in any super cautious pre-planned (flight sim or not) heist theories.

Leaving those theories to rest on mysterious passenger X and his magic ability to break into the cockpit, incapacitate both pilots, fly the 777, shadow another aircraft through militarised India/Pakistan and make it land safely and be hidden.

Yet there has not been any indication any passenger arouses suspicion. No hints from US intelligence services that an operation was being readied. No plane. No threats. No owning up to valuable cargo.

Every day the conspiracy theories get more and more elaborate, to incorporate new information, while the crazed pilot theory does not need to change.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-17 18:50:30 and read 39169 times.

Quoting dreamflight767 (Reply 175):
We keep saying that it couldn't have crashed because no debris has been found. But what if it landed in the water Hudson River style; the aircraft landed in one piece and sank?

That was my first theory, on about day 3.

Some say it would be hard to do at night and with such large engines, but I'm sure the engines could break off and sink and if the plane remained intact or even broke up into a few large pieces it would have had enough time to sink before sunrise. US1549 took on a lot of water quickly and was basically underwater in not too long. This can be seen in a lot of pics... Reminds me of the movie Airport '77...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: damirc
Posted 2014-03-17 18:51:36 and read 39221 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 181):
If it is true that the pilot was called up at the last minute, and did not request to be seated next to that first officer, that puts a giant hole in any super cautious pre-planned (flight sim or not) heist theories.

Still looking for confirmation for this. Last I've heard in one of the press conferences the Malaysians said that they were normally scheduled, well ahead (if I recall correctly they've said that the flights are rostered a month in advance) of time. I do not recall any last minute replacements. Would be glad of confirmation of this fact (since that then points towards the F/O rather than the captain).

D.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-17 18:52:28 and read 38862 times.

i don't recall hearing that the captain was called up last min to fly the a/c in question.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 18:52:56 and read 38985 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 183):

So far the official version is:- The pilot and FO did not request to fly together in MH370.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 18:54:10 and read 38730 times.

I read it in this topic, and of course it could be made up by someone and repeated. Which is why "if it is true.."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-17 18:55:08 and read 39209 times.

So NYT is now reporting that it was the 'computer that took plane far off flight path'. Hmmm. Need to find more on this I think.....

EDIT: Ehh, not quite as revolutionary as they made it sound:

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio...H370-Computer-sent-plane-off-path/

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:58:40]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 18:57:12 and read 38829 times.

well to be clear the NYT says someone put the waypoints into the flight management computer, via the keypad in the cockpit during or prior to the flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2014-03-17 18:57:20 and read 38717 times.

(Sorry if this has already been covered, too many posts to wade through)

Malaysian government changes its story. Again:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...=MoreInSection&pgtype=article&_r=0

Malaysia Backtracks on When Airliner’s Communications Were Disabled

SEPANG, Malaysia — The investigation into the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 took another confusing turn on Monday, as the authorities here reversed themselves and offered yet another version of the sequence of events in the crucial minutes before ground controllers lost contact with the jet early on March 8

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 175erj
Posted 2014-03-17 18:58:23 and read 38532 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 187):

I think you are misinterpreting this... what they are saying is that the plane was not flown manually, rather by inputs into the FMS...so someone was up there programming the FMS. It's not like the computer took over.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-17 18:58:31 and read 38610 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 161):
there were five runaways in the Capt's sim program

According to Wikipedia there is 24'000 airports in FSX then take into account that many airports have
more then 1 runway, you will realize that there are maybe some 30-40'000 runways in FSX,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Flight_Simulator_X

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-17 19:00:48 and read 38327 times.

Quoting 175erj (Reply 190):
I think you are misinterpreting this... what they are saying is that the plane was not flown manually, rather by inputs into the FMS...so someone was up there programming the FMS. It's not like the computer took over.

Yeah - I edited my reply above. Got suckered by CNN's ticker.....sorry.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 19:10:01 and read 37621 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 191):

I think the question is best answered with people familiar with the sim. I believe the investigator concentrated on the 5 runaways uploaded for his sim practice.

[Edited 2014-03-17 19:10:56]

[Edited 2014-03-17 19:11:18]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: fotoflyer71
Posted 2014-03-17 19:12:16 and read 37296 times.

Quoting rc135x (Reply 169):
To be even clearer the trailing 777 would preferentially be 250 feet ABOVE the lead 777, avoiding all turbulence.

Interesting viewpoint rc135x, thanks for this and your earlier input.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-17 19:12:23 and read 37275 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 178):
Quoting stuyyz (Reply 162):
[This may have been covered, but haven't seen it in the 27 threads i've read]

See my post 138 above in this part.

Thanks, very helpful, so what were the distances from all the other pings, kinda a surprised this hasn't been charted somewhere, to at least tell whether the plane was getting closer or farther away from the satellite over the 7hrs, or am i again missing something?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-17 19:17:14 and read 36949 times.

It still left an identifiable fuel slick in the Hudson and had floating debris.

From the NTSB Report - https://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2010/AAR1003.pdf - page 30

Damage to the aircraft included

Right engine detached
Both the forward and after cargo doors were open when the aircraft was lifted out of the water.
The forward cargo door show no signs of damage and functioned properly.
The aft cargo door frame was fractured in multiple places.
The right forward passenger door (1R) was twisted and could not be closed.

Water impact damage was shown from FR 49 to FR 70
There was loss of aircraft skin panels after frame 60.
The rear pressure bulkhead was damaged and the lower portion was missing at Frame 70
The lower left side of the rear fuselage as fractured and bent outward between FR 56 and 64 from the aircraft centerline.
The internal cargo structure was damaged, including floor panels at FR 57 buckled upward.
The tail cone and APU separated from the aircraft.

The aircraft was badly damaged by the forces of the water impact.

The damage the aircraft received was likened by the NTSB to a very severe tail-strike which make an aircraft a write-off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 19:23:30 and read 36398 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 195):
so what were the distances from all the other pings, kinda a surprised this hasn't been charted somewhere, to at least tell whether the plane was getting closer or farther away from the satellite over the 7hrs, or am i again missing something?

The arcs don't show locations of the aircraft, just two sets of possible locations. Only one point out of the two sets would have been the actual location at the last "ping." Considering a whole series of other sets of earlier locations from earlier pings would likely only confuse matters significantly.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Capt747Ret
Posted 2014-03-17 19:25:28 and read 36353 times.

FYI… Airplanes can float! You can go back to a SAS controlled flight into the water approaching LAX. The pilots were
visually flying into a black hole and did what Asiana did in SFO. Japan Airlines also did it in SFO with a stretch 8.
The SAS was a DC-8-61 or 62. The a/c broke in half just behind the trailing edge. From that point forward it floated.
Douglas towed the a/c to Long Beach and used a crane to put place it on land. It floated for days.
If after 8 hours there wouldn’t be much fuel left and if some of the tanks weren’t ruptured it could possibly still be floating
waiting to be found. I’ve read other theories that are a lot harder to accept. This has history behind it.

The positive pressure oxygen is for flight crew only not pax.
Also, above FL 400 one pilot must have his O2 mask on and using O2.
With loss of cabin altitude the pilots O2 is delivered positively. It becomes hard to talk and even exhale under these
conditions but it keeps you alive.
The pilots can NOT shutoff the pax O2.
The oxygen posting I posted earlier referenced just the 2 pilots working the flight. I do not believe we have any info on
a 3rd or 4th person assigned to the flight deck. If the captain allowed anyone in that would be his prerogative
although against good judgment.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: trnswrld
Posted 2014-03-17 19:27:10 and read 36160 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 114):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine a B777 (with all it's anti collision lights and transponder switched off!) flying in the shadow of another B777 at night would be lit up like a Christmas tree, by the lead B777's powerful tail strobe light. How traffic flying in the opposite direction could miss such a sight is hard to imagine.

A big danger however would come when the lead B777 performs a step climb I imagine the aircrafts angle of attack would send the aircrafts jet wash down towards the trailling B777, creating some severe turbulance and the chance of a flame out of one, if not both engines. And speaking of turbulance, if the lead B777 hits CAT, then the last place I would want to be is in the wake of another Heavy.

Ehhhh, say what?

Yeah I'm not sure if your a pilot or have ever even flown at night for that matter, but your acting like a trailing aircraft would be flying as close as the blue angels lol. To look like one blip on a controllers radar you can be as far away as a mile. Secondly, even if the plane was right on the other ones tail no it's not gonna be lit up like a tree. You do realize when passing traffic at cruise airplanes pass each other extremely fast. Not only that but most pilots wouldn't have their eyes glued to the windows searching for aircraft.

As far as your big danger about being behind an airliner that's going to commence a steep climb. Again, huh? When have you ever been in an airliner that all of a sudden performed a steep climb at cruise? Lol
Again, even if this situation happened the airplane would be far back.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 19:27:31 and read 36185 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 174):
Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 165):How could they have such specific information?
I think they're assuming it based on how the FMS would be used in a routine flight.

It turns out they're inferring this from the fact that the plane passed directly over standard waypoints, something not likely to happen in the case of hand flying or manually manipulating the autopilot.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-17 19:31:55 and read 35921 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 193):
I think the question is best answered with people familiar with the sim.

I am very familiar with FSX (~1400 hours with the current install) and have used it for several years.

Once you load free flight you can fly anywhere in world with the need to load anything again.
During that session. So there isn't any "upload" or "5 installed runways".

So I don't think that the report you are referring to is correct.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 19:37:22 and read 35885 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 201):
I am very familiar with FSX (~1400 hours with the current install) and have used it for several years.Once you load free flight you can fly anywhere in world with the need to load anything again.During that session. So there isn't any "upload" or "5 installed runways".So I don't think that the report you are referring to is correct.

This is from another link. The five runaways are being mentioned specifically.

"Investigations into the flight simulator taken from the missing pilot's home showed a software for five practice runaways, including one belonging to the United States, Berita Harian reported today."

Source:- http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...-mh370-pilots-simulator-says-paper


Or this how news get distorted?

[Edited 2014-03-17 19:38:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SeeTheWorld
Posted 2014-03-17 19:41:18 and read 35316 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 131):
But the whole pack of data we have (7 hrs. flying after many systems falling without explanation, together with no debris findings, no calls from passengers, etc. etc). make any other theory at least as hard to believe.

" ... any other theory ..."

What about the logic

Quoting Tapir (Reply 202):
This is from another link. The five runaways are being mentioned specifically.

"Investigations into the flight simulator taken from the missing pilot's home showed a software for five practice runaways, including one belonging to the United States, Berita Harian reported today."

Source:- http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...-mh370-pilots-simulator-says-paper

Diego Garcia was the 5th one ....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-17 19:41:45 and read 35394 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
Turn pressurization to manual, open the valves... it will depressurize... Wanna make it quicker, just turn off the bleeds too (inflow)... Just pressing a few buttons... the longer button is the outflow valve in manual... 

Fascinating! That means intentional depressurization is quite a valid theory as to how to incapacitate the cabin. Yikes, what a scary potential situation that is, to have the masks drop down but the a/c start ascending ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-17 19:42:20 and read 35117 times.

Quoting rc135x (Reply 164):
Flying in the air refueling envelope 50 feet behind and below the tanker is not what the theorists are suggesting. A condensed and inverted version of normal military cell formation (500 feet, 1 mile) would work just fine, say 250 feet vertical and a half mile in trail. The trailing 777 uses its autopilot to hold altitude and heading, and the pilot uses visual cues to maintain lateral separation. I have dragged 2 KC-135s behind me like this in radio- and emission-silence for >1,000 miles at night more than once.

I very much appreciated this post. Thank you. Like you, I am not sure I buy this theory, but I appreciate the facts in the possibility of something like that happening.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Capt747Ret
Posted 2014-03-17 19:48:31 and read 34652 times.

Does anyone have any info if there was a deadheading pilot, sim/ground instructor or even mechanic onboard?
If so, that person could have requested to visit the flight deck. Being that they probably knew each other this person(s)
could have gained entry. This could have been the perpetrator with a lot of knowledge how to operate the a/c.
I’ve deadheaded in thousands of cockpits. Even if you’re not rated to fly this a/c after a while you pick up enough
knowledge to fly one at least at a rudimentary level.

After takeoff, most if not all modern aircraft are flown using their respective automated systems. Rarely does a pilot fly
it manually anymore.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-17 19:48:51 and read 34611 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 201):

While true that you don't have to upload anything else, the entire fsx community is fueled by third party add ons. You can download and/or purchase "mods" - upgraded aircraft, scenery files (which contain runways) and scenarios. It's the reason Microsoft hasn't released a new version in so many years - it's entirely upgradable across the entire platform via third party add ons. There a very good chance this person had specific files to specific runways he wanted to fly. In fact, given his system, I'd say unlikely that he DIDNT have any third party upgrades.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Longhornmaniac
Posted 2014-03-17 19:51:37 and read 34489 times.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 199):
As far as your big danger about being behind an airliner that's going to commence a steep climb. Again, huh? When have you ever been in an airliner that all of a sudden performed a steep climb at cruise? Lol

This is the second time I've seen this misread. He said "step" climb, not "steep" climb. As in when an aircraft, as it burns off fuel enroute, climbs (usually 2 or 4K feet at a time) to a higher altitude.

What CaptainKramer was pointing out is that it would potentially present a challenge to the people in command of MH370 (be that the original pilots, some unknown hijackers, some combination of the two, or whomever) to remain sufficiently close to the leading aircraft (SQ68) as they start their climb. Of course, as it starts to climb, they could do the same, but there would be at least a moment where they were at (considerably) different altitudes/attitudes.

Cheers,
Cameron

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 19:53:33 and read 34282 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 202):
The five runaways are being mentioned specifically.

It could be he loaded 5 favourites or something similar. Quick access. Or maybe 5 most recent spawn points. Or maybe 5 extra-detail DLCs or mods.

But since even bothering to look at airports implies "Dr Evil and the incredible plan", why on earth would the mastermind leave his home system with such obvious clues? To imagine he was a sleeper agent awoken to steal a jet, and presumably get his face modified so he can re-enter polite society under a new identity in future. This is the guy who left his sim setup with the master plan? while in the air he remembers - whoops. Did I forget to deep disk-wipe my home pc? lol.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-17 19:58:50 and read 33816 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 209):
But since even bothering to look at airports implies "Dr Evil and the incredible plan", why on earth would the mastermind leave his home system with such obvious clues? To imagine he was a sleeper agent awoken to steal a jet, and presumably get his face modified so he can re-enter polite society under a new identity in future. This is the guy who left his sim setup with the master plan? while in the air he remembers - whoops. Did I forget to deep disk-wipe my home pc?

   I kind of agree. But it would be somewhat ironic if the pilot pulled off something like this, as complicated as it is, but forgot to wipe the computer. It was like Timohty McVeigh pulling off OKC, but forgetting to put a license plate on his car.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 209):
It could be he loaded 5 favourites or something similar. Quick access. Or maybe 5 most recent spawn points. Or maybe 5 extra-detail DLCs or mods.

That was more my thought as well and assumed it was either a translation issue, or a knowledge issue. We look at that and say, of course it has 5 runways loaded. It has ALL runways loaded. But what they might have meant was that data indicates there are 5 runways he was practicing on, or interested in, etc...

[Edited 2014-03-17 19:59:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-17 20:01:04 and read 33579 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 188):
well to be clear the NYT says someone put the waypoints into the flight management computer, via the keypad in the cockpit during or prior to the flight.

They do not know this. They are assuming or inferring it from the fact that the aircraft seemed to follow these waypoings.

-bg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: TheWipp
Posted 2014-03-17 20:03:02 and read 33816 times.

these guys state to have info from Boing about the plane being in Pakistan. is that homepage any reliable source? Is that a kbown company/organisation ?

http://www.lignet.com/InBriefs/Malay...560482_03172014&promo_code=16D22-1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-17 20:03:33 and read 33608 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
Turn pressurization to manual, open the valves... it will depressurize... Wanna make it quicker, just turn off the bleeds too (inflow)... Just pressing a few buttons... the longer button is the outflow valve in manual...

So, you could theoretically kill everyone else aboard by depressurization at 45K, program your disappearance flight, and then kill yourself? The plane then flies the route until the engines quit?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Wolger
Posted 2014-03-17 20:09:24 and read 33137 times.

5 frequently practiced/played runways of all? This is getting interesting. The FO is getting married, and I doubt he's got his hands in it if the pilot involvement theory is true.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-17 20:09:35 and read 33560 times.

CNN is reported that the Malaysians are changing their story yet again...apparently the first officer's sign off was before everything else. These are pivotal pieces of information and evidence. With 237 lives potentially still at stake, we can't afford this. Can the Malaysians just suck it up and let the FBI take over from here?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: NAV30
Posted 2014-03-17 20:09:46 and read 33241 times.

A very good find, TheWipp, thanks.

Let's hope that the story is true, all concerned are still alive, and the Pakistanis 'play ball' and find the aeroplane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Wolger
Posted 2014-03-17 20:13:16 and read 32867 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 213):

Crazy is it's true.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-17 20:15:18 and read 32835 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 213):
So, you could theoretically kill everyone else aboard by depressurization at 45K, program your disappearance flight, and then kill yourself? The plane then flies the route until the engines quit?

Now that is one hell of a scary thought.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 20:18:12 and read 32288 times.

Quoting TheWipp (Reply 212):
. is that homepage any reliable source?

No.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 20:18:39 and read 32314 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 215):

That is not going to happen! Especially with two by-elections in couple of weeks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-17 20:18:50 and read 32516 times.

Quoting TheWipp (Reply 212):
these guys state to have info from Boing about the plane being in Pakistan. is that homepage any reliable source? Is that a kbown company/organisation ?

http://www.lignet.com/InBriefs/Malay...560482_03172014&promo_code=16D22-1

The Independent is maybe a more reputable source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...and-crew-investigated-9195320.html

Crazy if true. Also makes sense why Israel took new steps to put it's airspace on high alert.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2014-03-17 20:20:43 and read 32162 times.

Quoting TheWipp (Reply 212):
these guys state to have info from Boing about the plane being in Pakistan. is that homepage any reliable source? Is that a kbown company/organisation ?

http://www.lignet.com/InBriefs/Malay...560482_03172014&promo_code=16D22-1

This too has some additional verbiage:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3134274/posts

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-17 20:20:46 and read 32142 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 218):

Now that is one hell of a scary thought.

You could kill the other pilot first, or just wait until he has left the cockpit and lock him out.

The flaw is the crew, they have pressure masks at stations fed by bottles.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-17 20:23:20 and read 32110 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 215):
With 237 lives potentially still at stake, we can't afford this. Can the Malaysians just suck it up and let the FBI take over from here?

If the US, Israel, and maybe Australia and India have immediate and serious security concerns over this they may be cutting the Malaysians out of a lot of info.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 20:25:50 and read 31729 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 221):
The Independent is maybe a more reputable source

Reputable, but that page is already outdated they are still reporting the ACARS was switched off prior to the pilot talking.

It would be a wet dream for freepers etc to somehow dig up a taliban / israeli / muslim connection but they aren't onto any new news, just collecting suppositions and reactions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Centre
Posted 2014-03-17 20:26:27 and read 31773 times.

The more I look at it, the more i become convinced of what i have posted in an earlier thread and got deleted: KGB style

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-17 20:27:09 and read 32074 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 213):
So, you could theoretically kill everyone else aboard by depressurization at 45K, program your disappearance flight, and then kill yourself? The plane then flies the route until the engines quit?

Better yet, program your "disappearance" route, depressurize at the altitude you're at (FL350 works just as well) and don't put on your oxygen mask. You're feeling real good in about 25 seconds and the passengers run out of oxygen soon after that. Engines eventually run out of fuel and the airplane crashes in the middle of the IO where it will never be found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-17 20:28:56 and read 31852 times.

looks like lignet took the story down.

n/m just new address; http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3134274/posts

[Edited 2014-03-17 20:30:13]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2014-03-17 20:30:37 and read 31633 times.

To me this situation is like the old story of the Blind Men and the Elephant, determining what an elephant is like by feeling different parts of it. People here and elsewhere have their opinion based on what they feel or have access to touch upon. With such little information, we have a huge range of possibilities of what happened.

Until we get some verifiable wreckage, we don't know what part of the elephant is closest to describe what happened here.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-17 20:31:47 and read 31669 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 213):
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
Turn pressurization to manual, open the valves... it will depressurize... Wanna make it quicker, just turn off the bleeds too (inflow)... Just pressing a few buttons... the longer button is the outflow valve in manual...

So, you could theoretically kill everyone else aboard by depressurization at 45K, program your disappearance flight, and then kill yourself? The plane then flies the route until the engines quit?
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 218):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 213):
So, you could theoretically kill everyone else aboard by depressurization at 45K, program your disappearance flight, and then kill yourself? The plane then flies the route until the engines quit?

Now that is one hell of a scary thought.

Scary, yes, but if you think about once the pilots don't care about their own lives they can easily kill you by crashing the plane into the ground. Same as a taxi driver can kill you by crashing the cab. We are in other people's hands every day.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 20:37:23 and read 31200 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 227):

Better yet, program your "disappearance" route, depressurize at the altitude you're at (FL350 works just as well) and don't put on your oxygen mask. You're feeling real good in about 25 seconds and the passengers run out of oxygen soon after that. Engines eventually run out of fuel and the airplane crashes in the middle of the IO where it will never be found.

The simplicity of this plan automatically renders it more probable than all the captured plane theories.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: EricR
Posted 2014-03-17 20:37:54 and read 31295 times.

Quoting Capt747Ret (Reply 206):

Does anyone have any info if there was a deadheading pilot, sim/ground instructor or even mechanic onboard?
If so, that person could have requested to visit the flight deck. Being that they probably knew each other this person(s)
could have gained entry. This could have been the perpetrator with a lot of knowledge how to operate the a/c.
I’ve deadheaded in thousands of cockpits. Even if you’re not rated to fly this a/c after a while you pick up enough
knowledge to fly one at least at a rudimentary level.

Yes. There was a passenger who worked as a flight engineer for a private jet firm on that flight. He is being investigated.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-jet-firm-involved-hijacking.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2014-03-17 20:38:37 and read 31090 times.

Quoting Capt747Ret (Reply 198):
FYI… Airplanes can float! You can go back to a SAS controlled flight into the water approaching LAX. The pilots werevisually flying into a black hole and did what Asiana did in SFO. Japan Airlines also did it in SFO with a stretch 8. The SAS was a DC-8-61 or 62. The a/c broke in half just behind the trailing edge. From that point forward it floated. Douglas towed the a/c to Long Beach and used a crane to put place it on land. It floated for days.

Not entirely accurate. It was a -62. Hitting the water the fuselage broke in three pieces. Two sank immediately. The third - forward fuselage connected to wings - was towed to shallow water where it sank after 20 hours. It was recovered, see picture:
http://framework.latimes.com/2011/05/10/sas-jetliner-crashes/#/6

Of 45 people on board 15 drowned (9 were never found), 17 suffered various injuries, 13 only got wet.

There are better examples (even if they are few) if you want to prove that planes can float after ditching.

(That was SK933 13 January 1969)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-17 20:42:22 and read 30626 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 230):
they can easily kill you by crashing the plane into the ground.

Strange if you think about it but the secure cockpit door thing in a way gives a suicidal pilot more options than they had prior to 9/11

Prior to 9/11 the co-pilot could force the door if locked out. The crew or pax can bash the door in (although obviously the pilot can still cause the plane to go out of control).

Post 9/11 once inside, they are invulnerable. They have to authorise the door open request, right?

[Edited 2014-03-17 20:44:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: mikeSa
Posted 2014-03-17 20:43:21 and read 31128 times.

Crazy,

Richard Quest just read my Tweet on CNN regarding the plane losing controls and just going off on its own!! Good to know what the CNN experts think  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-17 20:43:27 and read 30823 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 234):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 230):
they can easily kill you by crashing the plane into the ground.

Strange if you think about it but the secure cockpit door thing in a way gives a suicidal pilot more options than they had prior to 9/11

Prior to 9/11 the co-pilot could force the door if locked out. The crew or pax can bash the door in (although obviously the pilot can still cause the plane to go out of control).

Post 9/11 once inside, they are invulnerable. Can a pilot change the combination and lock out the co-pilot on a loo break?

Yes he can lock the other pilot out. It's a security feature if the other pilot loses it, which has happened.

Can't have security both ways! 

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-17 20:44:31 and read 30725 times.

Stolen passports on Malaysia flight used before, Chinese firm says

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldno...0317,0,6620266.story#axzz2wFgU1bpk

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-17 20:47:08 and read 30647 times.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 203):
Diego Garcia was the 5th one ....

Diego Garcia is a boring, nothing airport in MS Flight Simulator (and pretty much in the real world). Not even the couple of updated airport sceneries have things like security procedures, approach data, etc. Any real pilot who can land a Cessna 150 won't have trouble with Diego Garcia and FS wouldn't help with the airport anyway.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 209):
It could be he loaded 5 favourites or something similar. Quick access. Or maybe 5 most recent spawn points. Or maybe 5 extra-detail DLCs or mods.

Those are called 'Saved Flights', just like some saves a favorite spreadsheet template or game starting point.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 210):
That was more my thought as well and assumed it was either a translation issue, or a knowledge issue. We look at that and say, of course it has 5 runways loaded. It has ALL runways loaded. But what they might have meant was that data indicates there are 5 runways he was practicing on, or interested in, etc...

One possibility is that he uses X-Plane 8 or X-Plane 9. Many RW pilots like X-Plane more than MSFS because of the 'more realistic' physics engine. And X-Plane requires that most of the airports be downloaded as freeware addons.

But more likely, as you stated - it is a translation issue from someone who really doesn't understand MSFS or X-Plane.

--------------------------

Personally, my experience is that most real airline pilots who us MSFS do so to experience things other than what they cannot experience in the real world. Such as landing at Lukla or Couerchevel, flying in a different part of the world such as Europe for someone from Asia, or South America, etc.

The people who practice ultra-realistic flying with live on-line ATC tend to be folks who want to be real pilots, or some former pilots who have either retired or lost their medicals.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dreamflight767
Posted 2014-03-17 21:01:05 and read 29594 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 225):
Reputable, but that page is already outdated they are still reporting the ACARS was switched off prior to the pilot talking.

Not anymore...

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/1...n-jetliner/20851717/?ncid=webmail1

"By IAN MADER

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) - Officials revealed a new timeline Monday suggesting the final voice transmission from the cockpit of the missing Malaysian plane may have occurred before any of its communications systems were disabled, adding more uncertainty about who aboard might have been to blame."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-17 21:05:01 and read 29005 times.

Quoting dreamflight767 (Reply 239):
Not anymore...

I think that is what jelliesR was saying was that since they changed the timeline indicates that this article is out of date. Not sure the two are related, but I wasn't sure how reputable that theory was to begin with.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Halophila
Posted 2014-03-17 21:06:28 and read 28928 times.

I've been following these posts for some days now, and I have to say this is amongst the most peculiar aviation incidents I have seen. What I am thinking, however, is that anything posted on this site is public and should this be a terrorism-associated event (and I'm not saying it is here, necessarily...), they might be reading these posts. Certainly the mh370 captain seems to have been an aviation buff, and may well have been a member of this site.

I hope that if leaks occur which may possibly compromise security operations, that posters on this site would have tact not to post that information, or that mods would have foresight to remove posts. I don't want to come off as paranoid, but so far the media has revealed where it is searching for the plane, and a number of theories as to how it got there. My strong sense is that it is best to leave the element of surprise to professionals who may be in a position to rectify the situation, if that happens to be what is unfolding.

Of course it may also be out there in the ocean somewhere... but I will abandon hope when wreckage is found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-17 21:07:16 and read 28955 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 238):
Personally, my experience is that most real airline pilots who us MSFS do so to experience things other than what they cannot experience in the real world. Such as landing at Lukla or Couerchevel, flying in a different part of the world such as Europe for someone from Asia, or South America, etc.

The people who practice ultra-realistic flying with live on-line ATC tend to be folks who want to be real pilots, or some former pilots who have either retired or lost their medicals.

Well put! I have several friends who want to be real pilots but never made it their careers and they are avid simmers, while my pilot friends tend not to sim. From personal experience I used to be a reasonably avid simmer, even "piloting" for a virtual airline, but since I got my licenses it just doesn't have the same appeal. I do use MSFS sometimes to check out things I have no real-world experience with, like FMC, RNAV/LNAV and so forth but in contrast I use a pretty generic joystick and keyboard controls. No multi-screen with realistic throttle quadrant or anything.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-17 21:12:20 and read 28471 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 242):
From personal experience I used to be a reasonably avid simmer, even "piloting" for a virtual airline, but since I got my licenses it just doesn't have the same appeal.

I was the same way. I used to sim all the time, but haven't turned it on once since I got my PPL.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 242):
Well put! I have several friends who want to be real pilots but never made it their careers and they are avid simmers, while my pilot friends tend not to sim.

This is what I call "My Gynecologist" theory. A bit crude maybe. But it stemmed from when I was pursuing being a doctor, I knew the only specialty I didn't want to be was a gynecologist because I didn't want to come home to work if you get my drift. But in one way or another, we all usually don't like coming home to work. In my case, I like working on my car and flying on my free time, I don't like building websites and technology infrastructures. I would guess pilots like to do other things than what they do all the time, so simming doesn't have the same appeal.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: flyorski
Posted 2014-03-17 21:18:33 and read 28255 times.

I found a very good article on one theory for MH370. A simple explanation, such as fire is seemingly the most likely in my view.

https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z13cv1gohsmbv5jmy221vrfyiz3vdhbop04

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 21:19:03 and read 28097 times.

Quoting Halophila (Reply 241):

I've been following these posts for some days now, and I have to say this is amongst the most peculiar aviation incidents I have seen. What I am thinking, however, is that anything posted on this site is public and should this be a terrorism-associated event (and I'm not saying it is here, necessarily...), they might be reading these posts. Certainly the mh370 captain seems to have been an aviation buff, and may well have been a member of this site.

I hope that if leaks occur which may possibly compromise security operations, that posters on this site would have tact not to post that information, or that mods would have foresight to remove posts. I don't want to come off as paranoid, but so far the media has revealed where it is searching for the plane, and a number of theories as to how it got there. My strong sense is that it is best to leave the element of surprise to professionals who may be in a position to rectify the situation, if that happens to be what is unfolding.

My strong sense is that if anybody can gather anything of value from these 33 threads then more power to them. Seriously, we have only the meagerest crumbs of information: there's no strategic value in anything anybody has said here. Even if this has any value whatsoever then the authorities have no right or privilege to it.

Quoting Halophila (Reply 241):
Of course it may also be out there in the ocean somewhere... but I will abandon hope when wreckage is found.

Yes, sadly it's at the depths of the ocean, there's little chance of anything else.

[Edited 2014-03-17 21:20:22]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-17 21:21:30 and read 27874 times.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 244):
I found a very good article on one theory for MH370. A simple explanation, such as fire is seemingly the most likely in my view.

I would think the info we have now on positions rules out that scenario.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: alfa164
Posted 2014-03-17 21:25:57 and read 27576 times.

Quoting tmcn (Reply 57):
A question in relation to the black boxes and voice recorders.Suppose the plane (wrecked) is found, and the voice and data recorders are recovered. Did this aircraft have recorders of the "loop type", meaning only the last 30min are kept on tape. Or will the experts have access to the data in respect of the full flight? If the former, considering the plane might have been in the air for hours after having left its original and intended route, we might never know the full story but only a small part of it...

The voice recorder is a "loop" system, but I believe it saves about 2 hours of conversation.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 199):
As far as your big danger about being behind an airliner that's going to commence a steep climb

Unles it is a "mayday" emergency, the captain will radio his intention to climb prior to making the altitude change. The trailing plane can listen to his communications easily, without giving away its presence.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 21:27:07 and read 27440 times.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 244):

I found a very good article on one theory for MH370. A simple explanation, such as fire is seemingly the most likely in my view.

https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z13cv1gohsmbv5jmy221vrfyiz3vdhbop04

Which airport is he talking about, LGK?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: celestar
Posted 2014-03-17 21:30:21 and read 27454 times.

I apologize for not taking all the time to finish this thread, but I run across this thread and not sure if it has been posted.
Apparently, the aeronautical engineering student in Taiwan, while browsing through tons of satellite photo, found an image, taken by Tomnod, under photo number Map654342, indicate an aeroplane with its rudder broken in the middle of a jungle, presumably somewhere in the Indonesian jungle.... there was no lowering of landing hear and no leading edge deployment and it appears there is no airfield near-by. Given this is reported, ironically in Sina.com - a PRC Chinese portal, I have doubts but someone knowledgable could see if they can dig out Tomnod and confirm this photo - it stated that Tomnod keep photo data at every photo and they would know the location of this photo taken.. Emm, how puzzling can this be now..

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2014-03-18/1134769405.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-17 21:32:49 and read 27312 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 213):
So, you could theoretically kill everyone else aboard by depressurization at 45K, program your disappearance flight, and then kill yourself? The plane then flies the route until the engines quit?
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 227):
Better yet, program your "disappearance" route, depressurize at the altitude you're at (FL350 works just as well) and don't put on your oxygen mask. You're feeling real good in about 25 seconds and the passengers run out of oxygen soon after that. Engines eventually run out of fuel and the airplane crashes in the middle of the IO where it will never be found.

This is actually a very plausible theory. The whole sequence of the events would be:
- Incapacitate the other pilot
- Turn off transponder
- Turn off ACARS transmissions
- Program waypoints all the way to the Indian Ocean avoiding primary radar coverage
- Depressurize the plane and don't take oxygen mask. The pilot will die first and everybody else in half an hour or so
- The plane will crash once the fuel runs out

If the plane has followed waypoints and routes all the way to the crash, it should be possible to find out which waypoints and thus routes correlate with the satellite pings. And that's probably what the investigators already have figured out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-17 21:33:45 and read 27094 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 249):
Tomnod

I thought the Tomnod maps only covered water?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-17 21:33:58 and read 27628 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 249):

Wings don't seem to match a 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: EricR
Posted 2014-03-17 21:35:29 and read 27372 times.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 244):

I found a very good article on one theory for MH370. A simple explanation, such as fire is seemingly the most likely in my view.

https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z13cv1gohsmbv5jmy221vrfyiz3vdhbop04

Except there are several holes in that theory.

1.) if it was a fire as he suspects, then the plane would not have flown for another 7 hours, it would have crashed prior to 7 hours and 3,675 miles.
2.) the plane followed specific waypoints. If there was a fire, the pilot would not be programming in waypoints or manually flying by waypoints beyond (west of) Langkawi which he claims was the diversion airport.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2014-03-17 21:35:31 and read 27481 times.



Quote:
I apologize for not taking all the time to finish this thread, but I run across this thread and not sure if it has been posted.
Apparently, the aeronautical engineering student in Taiwan, while browsing through tons of satellite photo, found an image, taken by Tomnod, under photo number Map654342, indicate an aeroplane with its rudder broken in the middle of a jungle, presumably somewhere in the Indonesian jungle.... there was no lowering of landing hear and no leading edge deployment and it appears there is no airfield near-by. Given this is reported, ironically in Sina.com - a PRC Chinese portal, I have doubts but someone knowledgable could see if they can dig out Tomnod and confirm this photo - it stated that Tomnod keep photo data at every photo and they would know the location of this photo taken.. Emm, how puzzling can this be now..

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2014-03-18/1134769405.html

^ perhaps a plane photographed in flight...

[Edited 2014-03-17 21:36:17]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 4holer
Posted 2014-03-17 21:36:02 and read 27265 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 249):
Tomnod, under photo number Map654342, indicate an aeroplane with its rudder broken in the middle of a jungle, presumably somewhere in the Indonesian jungle

...Or.... Flying OVER said jungle. Lots of those airliners from above on satellite images.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: WingedMigrator
Posted 2014-03-17 21:39:08 and read 27084 times.

Regarding the Sanity Check...

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):
A fire broke out that incapacitated passengers and crew - but allowed to aircraft to fly on it's own till starvation.

I don't know that a cockpit fire would necessarily have incapacitated passengers and crew. It could have left navigation and communications systems inoperable and flight control systems crippled to the point that the airplane was flyable but unable to land, once the fire had been brought under control by crew and passengers.

I doubt that the plane could have flown for hours with a fire raging out of control, but with the fire put out, even a perfectly able crew could have struggled mightily to control the aircraft's path--lost over the ocean on a moonless night with engines permanently stuck at cruise thrust, at the mercy of the wind.

This is what the aftermath of a 777-200 cockpit fire looks like. It was sudden and the crew had to retreat from the cockpit quickly. Even with all that fancy communications gear in the cockpit, the first officer ended up running down to the apron to borrow a handheld radio to call in the emergency. What if that fire had started in flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-17 21:43:33 and read 26663 times.

I have few questions. Thanks in advance!

-Does ACARS monitor transponder activity?
-Would ACARS have sent a message if transponder was turned off?
-Also, even though ACARS sends reports every 30 min, should a system fail or some issue emerges, would it relay the information immediately or wait for next reporting time?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: timothy31388
Posted 2014-03-17 21:45:06 and read 26629 times.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 254):

Yeah it does look like the airplane was in flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: celestar
Posted 2014-03-17 21:45:48 and read 26800 times.

I don't have time to do a full Chinese to English translation, but the article did say it is missing the rudder, signs of forest scratching which indicate a plausible airplane on the ground, located north west of Sumatra.....
Not sure why, but I seems to tell the wing is definitely not an AIRBUS A330 and it appears, in my eyes, a B777.
Checked again, the post was done at 11.38am on 3/18 and we are now 12.45pm
I was hoping someone can check on this satellite company under the MAP number to double confirm this.
Anyway, my prayers to all the victims. I really feel bad for all of the them plus their immediate families.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 21:46:29 and read 26544 times.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 256):
This is what the aftermath of a 777-200 cockpit fire looks like. It was sudden and the crew had to retreat from the cockpit quickly. Even with all that fancy communications gear in the cockpit, the first officer ended up running down to the apron to borrow a handheld radio to call in the emergency. What if that fire had started in flight?

Funny how the MH370 debate has even spread to that page.

Hard to imagine a plane flying for 7.5 hours with that kind of damage.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-17 21:49:00 and read 26276 times.

It looks more like a Fokker in flight to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 21:49:45 and read 26366 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 250):
This is actually a very plausible theory. The whole sequence of the events would be:
- Incapacitate the other pilot
- Turn off transponder
- Turn off ACARS transmissions
- Program waypoints all the way to the Indian Ocean avoiding primary radar coverage
- Depressurize the plane and don't take oxygen mask. The pilot will die first and everybody else in half an hour or so
- The plane will crash once the fuel runs out

If the plane has followed waypoints and routes all the way to the crash, it should be possible to find out which waypoints and thus routes correlate with the satellite pings. And that's probably what the investigators already have figured out.

The nice thing about this theory is that it actually matches the few things we do know:
-sequence of events
-absence of communication
-length of flight
-absence of wreckage
And it does this without having to evoke fanciful schemes like shadowing another plane or hiding under a volcano.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: woodreau
Posted 2014-03-17 21:50:20 and read 26120 times.

Rcair. Thank you for the sanity check post. I haven't read any threads on the mh370 crash. And rarely follow the news reports, So this was a good synopsis

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 160):
Someone help me out with this one: If we assume that the U.S. has spy satellites with infrared sensing capabilities, and that the EGT of these engines (RR Trent 800?) is maybe 1,000+ degrees F, compared to low background temps, then what are the chances of an archieved sat. image being stored somewhere? Or are these types of satellites only tasked on specific missions? I've read somewhere else that we do have satellites which are capable of picking up missile launches anywhere in the world.

Short answer, not likely, The NRO owns all the satellites, they prioritize the incoming requirements from all the "data seekers" and the satellites are tasked for specific missions. So unless one of the satellites was specifically looking for what you were stating, it is unlikely that there is any archive to research.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: blrsea
Posted 2014-03-17 21:50:43 and read 26171 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 202):
"Investigations into the flight simulator taken from the missing pilot's home showed a software for five practice runaways, including one belonging to the United States, Berita Harian reported today."

Source:- http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...-mh370-pilots-simulator-says-paper


Or this how news get distorted?

A person using flight simulator will obviously use some sort of airport/runways. And why will an enthusiast practise on the runways in the neighbourhood that he is familiar with? I don't see anything wrong with the pilot simulating airports around the world that he is not familiar with. Doesn't anyone with a simulator do the same??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 21:55:22 and read 26106 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 259):
I don't have time to do a full Chinese to English translation, but the article did say it is missing the rudder, signs of forest scratching which indicate a plausible airplane on the ground, located north west of Sumatra.....
Not sure why, but I seems to tell the wing is definitely not an AIRBUS A330 and it appears, in my eyes, a B777.
Checked again, the post was done at 11.38am on 3/18 and we are now 12.45pm
I was hoping someone can check on this satellite company under the MAP number to double confirm this.
Anyway, my prayers to all the victims. I really feel bad for all of the them plus their immediate families.

Something's not right. Even if that is the plane, is it plausible to land a 777 still half full of fuel in the rain forest at night without a huge fireball erupting? Assuming that can be done--as suggested by the photo--the crash looks survivable. It's 11 days now, shouldn't someone have crawled out of the jungle by now?

[Edited 2014-03-17 21:56:20]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: NAV30
Posted 2014-03-17 22:01:08 and read 25667 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 250):
This is actually a very plausible theory.

I once had a friend who committed suicide. We'd all tried to help him, but we failed. All of us felt guilty and wished that we'd done more for him.

Thing is, with hindsight his problem was obvious. Unsmiling, 'distant,' not saying much, and above all 'depressed.'

From the photographs on the Net, neither of the pilots have that 'look.' The Captain looks pretty warm-hearted and competent, the First Officer looks smiling and optimistic. Difficult to believe that either of them could commit suicide - especially when they would have been taking hundreds of passengers with them.

Therefore I can't really believe any sort of 'pilot suicide' theory. That really only leaves the 'hijack theory.' Presumably carried out by passengers who somehow managed to get to the flight-deck?

Going on from there, excluding suicide, only two possibilities appear to remain. Either the hijackers weren't very competent/experienced, and managed to crash the aeroplane 'in the ditch' - or they WERE indeed competent enough to fly the aeroplane to an unauthorised destination like rural Afghanistan, and land it?

We'll probably know quite soon if the latter theory turns out to be true. Lots of ransom demands...........

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-17 22:04:54 and read 25311 times.

This would be a bizarre pilot suicide. Again, if you want to crash in the water, why go to the Indian Ocean. If you want to make a statement, why not hit the Petronas Tower?

Everything is possible, of course, but a lot of conclusions seem to be being drawn from "facts" that are a lot less reliable than other facts that are more reliable. It was completely freaking obvious that nobody would have any way of knowing exactly when ACARS was turned off. Just none. They would know when its last transmission was and the time at which it should-have-but-didn't make a new one, but nothing more. So ALL that theorizing based on the ACARS being turned off before the "good night" and then the transponder being turned off after that was just completely wrong. They both could have been turned off after the good night, which is just as plausible based on what we now know.

I think we'll find that the speculation about the plane being flown above its service ceiling will also turn out to be totally wrong. Primary radar doesn't do a stellar job of determining precise altitudes, which is one reason we have transponders. Also, the significance of exceeding the service ceiling seems to be all wrong in these theories. If the thing went to 45,000 feet with a significant load, I have to think the coffin-corner would be very narrow, and it would have a hard time staying in the air, or even getting to that altitude. (Vis Pinnacle). There's no significant benefit to going that high before depressurizing. You can get the pax very easily at 35,000, so that makes no sense. If the altitude registered was actually 45,000, that speaks to me more of a wild fight for control of the aircraft, or a mistake made by an inexperienced person trying to hand-fly the thing at night with no outside reference. Deductions and inferences from these "facts" just aren't helpful.

Much better to create a hierarchy of facts based upon their perceived reliability as they stand alone, and then see how those pieces fit an existing theory or lead towards a knew one, and wait a long time before "promoting" a stray fact to a more reliable one just because it fits better into the puzzle.

What we have seem like wayward bits of data that only should be considered if they later fit into a theory that has a lot of proven facts, like the stray primary images after last secondary radar contact with the plane. Those seemed to be a red herring at first, but now SEEM to have some validity. But in the end, they may not.

Also, it seems that looking at satellite handshake signals is a very, very new procedure in aircraft accident investigations, and the deductions that have been made in that regard may turn out, upon further reflection, to be totally, totally wrong. A wayward bit of software in the satellite communication program could be creating phantom records of handshakes, for example. As a very crude and potentially implausible example, we may find that what are thought to be "records" of handshakes may be guesstimates by the satellite of where to look for the next handshake. But when complex systems and the records they create are being analyzed for purposes for which they were not intended, noise intentionally or unintentionally introduced into the system may produce records from which seeminly-plausible deductions are actually inaccurate.

One thing is for certain: once the actual facts are known (and many will be, eventually), we will be very surprised by which pieces of data actually have significance, and how they actually fit into the overall picture, just as happened with Air France. They could see indications of stuff (bending of catering carts), but how the a/c got to that point was something that nobody ever would have guessed (bunkie pulling stick full back in total-manual mode and stalling the aircraft, and continuing in a deep stall at a time when the aircraft had recovered from the loss of airspeed data and was perfectly capable of flying itself; captain not taking his seat while problem was being worked, etc. etc.). Or Colgan Air -- weather, icing, stalled T-tail???? -- nope, experienced (by the way) Captain made completely-inappropriate control inputs when faced with an emergency, stalled the aircraft, and died.

[Edited 2014-03-17 22:17:32]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: virgin744
Posted 2014-03-17 22:12:21 and read 24678 times.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 266):

The problem with your observation is that you're basing it off your own experience. Everyone's experience is different and not all suicides are alike. There are plenty of people who are the complete opposite of that and could never be imagined for 1 second to be in a situation where they'd be thinking of taking their own life.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-17 22:16:19 and read 24390 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 267):

This would be a bizarre pilot suicide. Again, if you want to crash in the water, why go to the Indian Ocean.

It does seem bizarre, but as I said earlier the stigma associated with suicide could certainly motivate someone to go through great lengths to hide it. And for a capable individual the scenario laid out by Finn350 may not even be that complex.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2014-03-17 22:17:30 and read 24502 times.

For anyone questioning the cockpit door? There is no way short of explosives to get through a Boeing (although designed by someone else) door. A buddy and I installed the first cockpit door after (9/11) for the company designing the door for the 737. We had engineers, safety, flight ops, management watching us do this job and to see the end product. What a mind wrecking event. It was on a 737-200 and much more extensive then a -300 or NG. With that said, these doors are the real thing. The door posts are mounted to major structure, they are impregnable except for explosives. If I didn't have passenger intervention though, I could get in. I.E. no one else on the airplane. I won't expound any more because it is just not possible in real life. If a flight officer leaves he can be locked out never to return. Just hit reject on the cockpit door code.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: virgin744
Posted 2014-03-17 22:20:55 and read 24500 times.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/pilot...raise-fresh-questions-missing-jet/

"The latest now on the investigation into Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. There were more questions raised today about the pilot himself after reports confirmed he attended the trial of a leading jailed political opposition figure just hours before the flight."

interesting development.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-17 22:21:47 and read 24290 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 267):

I think 45000 feet ascend can't be seen without further "uneven descend to 23000". It was the statement from investigating authorities. It's a likely scenario, that the plane could go at 45000, stall there and brought back to stable at 23000.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-17 22:22:39 and read 24188 times.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 270):
it is just not possible in real life. If a flight officer leaves he can be locked out never to return. Just hit reject on the cockpit door code.

Do any major carriers leave one person alone in the cockpit anymore? My understanding is that American carriers, at least, put an f/a in there for precisely that reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Viper911
Posted 2014-03-17 22:31:08 and read 23768 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 259):
I don't have time to do a full Chinese to English translation, but the article did say it is missing the rudder, signs of forest scratching which indicate a plausible airplane on the ground, located north west of Sumatra.....
Not sure why, but I seems to tell the wing is definitely not an AIRBUS A330 and it appears, in my eyes, a B777.
Checked again, the post was done at 11.38am on 3/18 and we are now 12.45pm
I was hoping someone can check on this satellite company under the MAP number to double confirm this.
Anyway, my prayers to all the victims. I really feel bad for all of the them plus their immediate families.

If you look for the said map on Tomnod, you can clearly see that the airplane is located 100-150 meters away from private houses, I really doubt that if a plane the size of 777 would crash in your back yard and you wont report it and to top all that, there is no damage to the woods whatsoever. The airplane was captured in flight imo.

Viper911

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-17 22:36:16 and read 23570 times.

By the way, the New York Times (and Fox News) breathless reporting on the aircraft being flown by the FMS seems like a data point blown way out of proportion.

If I understand what they are saying (because they sure as hell don't), it has somehow been discovered that a waypoint was entered into the FMS, presumably-intentionally as opposed to accidentally, that would have caused the turn seen on primary radar after the ADS-B was switched off. If I further understand, they are determining this because the stray waypoint was reported to the ground by ACARS. Okay, swell. That might be significant because it would then mean that this new waypoint was entered prior to the "okay, goodnight" because the last ACARS transmission preceded that voice communication.

In a perfect world, you might be able to deduce something from that. But, it could also be that a developing emergency caused a pilot to enter a waypoint back towards land, and that wasn't communicated by radio because they weren't ready to do so. (Agreed, however, that typically one would use the autopilot heading select or take manual control in an emergency, but, hey, what about those guys in the sim that saw an MD80 coming up the beach at them and tried to get out of the way by punching an altitude change into the autopilot [which, by design, couldn't have been executed fast enough to get out of the way]? People who use a lot of automation do weird things when startled...) Also, since the investigators don't seem to know WHEN the waypoint was entered, it doesn't mean that it isn't simply a mistake, which the aircraft then dutifully-followed. I would also like to know whether any other waypoints were reported to be entered, because if you're programming in a route to a new place, you would likely enter more than one waypoint. I don't see why all this isn't consistent with a co-pilot sitting in the cockpit with a gun to his head being told to enter a series of waypoints by a hijacker who had been provided with that list of waypoints by his masters. When time to hand over to Vietnamese ATC, with a gun to his head, he reports in "okay, goodnight". I'm just not seeing any conclusive evidence that anything happened that only pilots could do, or that only pilots could know how to do. A list of waypoints which pilots are told to program in makes just as much sense as renegade pilots entering waypoints.

Anyway, more useless info...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-17 22:47:11 and read 22589 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 275):

To add for the purpose of objectivity, we don't know if waypoints were entered before "all right, good night", since next ACARS transmission was expected at 9:37. We simply didn't get it, so capture, FMC altering, squawk on stand-by and ACARS off could happen after last communication to ATC at equal probability with that it was done before. Even more probable, that it happened after "all right , good night", if you consider time period: there were 12 minutes available before all right good night and 18 minutes after this communication but before expected ACARS. So chances here are 40% it happened before and 60% it happened after.

[Edited 2014-03-17 22:59:52]

[Edited 2014-03-17 23:03:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-17 22:51:54 and read 22999 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 77):

I think the fact the plane dropped from 45000 to 23000 can be substantial since it could be explained by stall and leveling...it could be added to sanity check paragraph "Hypoxia and pressurization"
Thanks

[Edited 2014-03-17 23:09:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-17 23:02:58 and read 22321 times.

Quoting virgin744 (Reply 271):

That's a bit of old news over in Malaysia. The latest spin is the Capt is the uncle of the opposition leader's daughter-in-law. Just to clarify, the pro government paper itself estimated that 80% pilots of MAS are the opposition supporters. Therefore, you cannot read too much into his political affiliation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: valleyflyer
Posted 2014-03-17 23:05:40 and read 22089 times.

Why is everyone only considering fire? Airbus was struggling with software bugs for a while with cockpit displays going blank, etc.

online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB121684995725478651

Recommendations released by the National Transportation Safety Board Wednesday cite 49 incidents over the years in which electrical problems caused various cockpit displays on widely-used Airbus A319 and A320 to suddenly stop functioning and temporarily go blank during flight. According to the board, seven of those incidents resulted in the simultaneous loss of all six electric cockpit displays -- something that safety experts originally believed was virtually impossible.

If a similar fault would occur in a 777 at night over the ocean, pilot disorientation could quickly set in. I can see how the pilot would have trouble controlling the aircraft in darkness over the ocean with almost no point of reference. That could explain the dramatic direction and altitude changes. Once he stabilized the plane and leveled out, he continued to fly - looking for land until the fuel ran out over the Pacific Ocean...

Based on the latest updates that there was no progressive disabling of instruments this is my best guess.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-17 23:10:21 and read 21976 times.

Quoting celestar (Reply 249):
Apparently, the aeronautical engineering student in Taiwan, while browsing through tons of satellite photo, found an image, taken by Tomnod, under photo number Map654342, indicate an aeroplane with its rudder broken in the middle of a jungle, presumably somewhere in the Indonesian jungle

Well, there does appear to be a plane on that Tomnod tile:

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/654342

However, assuming the scale is correct, it appears to be too small to be a 777. My guess is this is just a plane in flight, and the appearance of a damaged tail is because the tail is in fact, painted black. The horizontal stabilizers look fine and there is even a fine line of the vertical stabilizer which also appears undamaged. Edit: Also note the complete lack of any disturbed vegetation surrounding the "crash site".



[Edited 2014-03-17 23:11:35]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2014-03-17 23:10:27 and read 21739 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 273):
Do any major carriers leave one person alone in the cockpit anymore? My understanding is that American carriers, at least, put an f/a in there for precisely that reason.

I'm sorry I can not answer that question. I just don't know. I only know about my carrier. And then only because I am allowed to fly cockpit and I fly non-rev a lot. I never see the crew come out of the cockpit. With thousands and thousands of miles I have never seen one of our crew leave the cockpit, Ever.


They must have huge bladders. LOL. Seriously though, I fly observer/mech many times a month, traveling to repair aircraft and the crew never exits the cockpit. Granted they are only an hour to 3 hour flights. An 8 hour flight would definitely require a trip to the lav..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-17 23:13:30 and read 21931 times.

Straits Times reports that the investigators have re-enacted the flight path MH 370 with an identical Boeing 777-200.

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...370s-flight-path-official-20140316

Quote:
Investigators probing the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines MH370 piloted an identical Boeing 777-200 on the missing plane's suspected flight path, in a re-enactment confirming their belief that it banked west, a senior Malaysian military official said on Sunday.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-17 23:15:58 and read 21517 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 280):

Shape of wings is completely different, look at the angle of front edge at which it approaches the fuselage. Doesn't look the same at all...
And yes, most likely, it's in flight and tail is dark color.

[Edited 2014-03-17 23:20:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: valleyflyer
Posted 2014-03-17 23:22:21 and read 20993 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 280):

I believe the aircraft could be tilted downward (nose down) hanging over a hillside.

That may fit it better, but due to the black tail I don't think it is MH.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: PHX Flyer
Posted 2014-03-17 23:25:02 and read 20880 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 272):
I think 45000 feet ascend can't be seen without further "uneven descend to 23000". It was the statement from investigating authorities. It's a likely scenario, that the plane could go at 45000

I think 45,000ft is highly unlikely, but be that as it may. We are talking about rough estimates here based on primary radar data. Suffice it to say there were some significant and abrupt changes in altitude, probably not quite as extreme as the numbers suggest. I do no believe that the flight crew deliberately initiated the flight plan deviations (I agree with the Israelis in that their profiles don't match those of potential terrorists, nor does either one of them appear suicidal). I think it is possible that an intruder entered the flight deck, and maybe the captain tried to throw him off balance by flying some wild maneuvers. It's also possible that soemone else had taken over controls, someone with knowledge how to operate a FMC, but without much practical flying experience, who caused erratic altitude changes during a moment, when the autopilot was disengaged.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: EVAAIRBR076
Posted 2014-03-17 23:26:40 and read 20802 times.

Maybe a bit of a doom scenario and i would be very surprised if. But next week here in the netherlands in the city where i live in, the hague, the nuclear summit will be hold from 23-26 march. With 43 world leaders including obama, the president of china, france, germany, england, japan etc will be there. Gosh i never thought i would be dragged into this fantasy stories and conspiracy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-17 23:28:57 and read 20595 times.

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 286):

Well, they'd have to re-fuel it.

And presumably military and security forces will now be very alert to suspicious airliners.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-17 23:30:34 and read 20541 times.

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 286):

You may want to take vacation just in case ...  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2014-03-17 23:32:37 and read 20556 times.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 266):
From the photographs on the Net, neither of the pilots have that 'look.' The Captain looks pretty warm-hearted and competent, the First Officer looks smiling and optimistic. Difficult to believe that either of them could commit suicide - especially when they would have been taking hundreds of passengers with them.

This lady didn't have the 'look' either, and had a lot to live for:

http://www.skywaybridge.com/current.htm#140205

She was married, with 4 children, ages 8, 7, 5 and 4 months, she worked as an Occupational Therapist and was passionate about helping children.

''a wonderful person who was always there for her children, family and devoted to her work. She will truly be missed by all.''

You just never know... what drives people who seem to have so much going for them to make such a decision.

Everything can seem to be perfect to others from the outside, even in the case of the pilots on MH370, but nothing can be ruled out. Websites like skywaybridge which list suicides and allow for comments from friends and family after the event, show in many cases it was unexpected, sudden and unexplainable. Not every time, but most times.

However, it reaches an entirely different level to be so self-centered in a mission to self-end, to take more than 200 others along with you...



LD4

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-17 23:36:29 and read 20221 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 280):

I'm sure one will find quite a number of planes on Tomnod, as their pics are taken over several days, mostly much later than the MH370 flight, so finding *it* in flight would be a feat (but maybe one can see it parked somewhere, if only Tomnod's coverage wasn't to very restricted!)

I found this:

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/639235

to get the coordinates, just replace 'challenge' with 'api' in the URL. You can paste the latitude and longitude numbers (just those) into Google earth/maps or such.



What makes that plane look to white in the satellite picture? Reflection from sunshine?

[Edited 2014-03-17 23:41:31]

[Edited 2014-03-17 23:43:13]

[Edited 2014-03-17 23:47:22]

[Edited 2014-03-18 00:08:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-18 00:06:29 and read 18249 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 280):
However, assuming the scale is correct, it appears to be too small to be a 777.

Also the wrong shape. That's an A320, perhaps an A321.

-Mir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-18 00:14:17 and read 17733 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 291):
Also the wrong shape. That's an A320, perhaps an A321.

Doesn't fit the shape either. Looks more like a F100 to me...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2014-03-18 00:17:48 and read 17664 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 280):
Well, there does appear to be a plane on that Tomnod tile:

Looks like a Jet Airways 737. It even looks like it was 737 style overwing exit arrow markings and the 777-200 does not even have overwing exits.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 00:19:25 and read 17527 times.

Quoting rebr (Reply 292):
Doesn't fit the shape either. Looks more like a F100 to me...

   or something like it, if it were an A3xx or 7xx the engines would presumably be visible under the wings.

[Edited 2014-03-18 00:20:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chrisair
Posted 2014-03-18 00:20:07 and read 17470 times.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 281):
With thousands and thousands of miles I have never seen one of our crew leave the cockpit, Ever.

Strange. I've seen it on plenty of your flights. Had it happen a few months ago on ABQ-LAX. They might be less inclined to go if they've got someone riding up front with them since it's like musical chairs.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 281):
They must have huge bladders. LOL.

I did hear one of your captains say they get to a certain zen state once they hit 4+ hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-18 00:23:41 and read 17295 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 93):
But the Petronas Towers could have been a target too...

Targeting the towers in the dead of night where occupancy would be at its lowest point? Certainly possible, but an odd scenario for terrorism.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 146):
I dont think they overflew the peninsula at a low altitude at night and on a moonless day.... its way too risky and difficult, and if your ultimate goal is suicide its way too complex and hard to execute without somebody doing something about it.

If you've managed to incapacitate the other pilot, have locked yourself in the cockpit, and your "ultimate goal is suicide" there is virtually nothing anyone can do about it. Where is the risk? You ruin your goal of suicide by accidentally slamming into a mountain?

Quoting celestar (Reply 249):
Apparently, the aeronautical engineering student in Taiwan, while browsing through tons of satellite photo, found an image, taken by Tomnod, under photo number Map654342, indicate an aeroplane with its rudder broken in the middle of a jungle, presumably somewhere in the Indonesian jungle.... there was no lowering of landing hear and no leading edge deployment and it appears there is no airfield near-by

Was that aircraft VTOL capable, or how did it come to rest fully intact in the jungle? Sorry, not meaning to mock the guy who found the image... at least he's actively trying to do something.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 267):
This would be a bizarre pilot suicide. Again, if you want to crash in the water, why go to the Indian Ocean.

There could be several reasons for wanting to plant the aircraft in the depths of the Indian Ocean, and they've been brought up here multiple times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 282):
Straits Times reports that the investigators have re-enacted the flight path MH 370 with an identical Boeing 777-200.

Not sure that article is accurate. In one of the last 2-3 press conferences they said they had done this using a simulator. As the article based its information on what "a senior Malaysian military official said on Sunday", I don't think anything has changed since then.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: cheeken
Posted 2014-03-18 00:24:11 and read 17237 times.

I do have a question, since the plane sent about 7 pings (every hour) to the satellite, shouldn't we have 7 loci that might somehow give a clearer picture on how the plane travelled? eg. if the plane flew without any change in direction we'd get equally spaced loci, and the distance between the loci will give us an idea of the heading at which the plane is flying? And if the direction changes we'd get loci that vary in spacing but if the plane didn't change heading very often for a certain period of time we can sort of guess that it travelled straight for a few hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-18 00:26:12 and read 17082 times.

Quoting sejtam (Reply 290):
I'm sure one will find quite a number of planes on Tomnod, as their pics are taken over several days, mostly much later than the MH370 fligh

In fact with all the search going on, I wonder no-one has spotted pics of the search airraft and ships yet.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: CaliAtenza
Posted 2014-03-18 00:30:00 and read 17149 times.

Those 2 Iranian guys were brought up on CNN tonight, by a forensic psychologist...and he then stated...with reference to them, that China is being very quiet.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-18 00:30:53 and read 16873 times.

Quoting rebr (Reply 292):
Looks more like a F100 to me...

Can't be - the tail casts a shadow on the left horizontal stabilizer, so it's not a T-tail aircraft.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 294):
if it were an A3xx or 7xx the engines would presumably be visible under the wings.

They're painted dark like the tail, so it's not surprising that they wouldn't be visible.

-Mir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2014-03-18 00:31:30 and read 16842 times.

I find it amusing those who believe the suicide is "irrational" (or an insane theory) based only on their own prejudices.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 267):
This would be a bizarre pilot suicide. Again, if you want to crash in the water, why go to the Indian Ocean. If you want to make a statement, why not hit the Petronas Tower?

It depends on the statement you want to make. Hitting the Petronas Tower would likely make the pilot a "terrorist", and nobody would question the government. An outcome would be easy to establish (Plane hits tower in KL. Period). Malaysian government would receive support from the US and other countries/international organizations in order to figure out potential terrorist plots.

When countries are deeply shocked by an event of this type, usually the government emerges stronger, since even non-supporters will align in such exceptional circumstances (it will be seen at least of "bad taste" trying to build political influence over hundreds - or likely thousands if you hit the Petronas - deaths).

Under the current circumstances, the Malaysian government has been in the global spotlight for more than a week just showing how lost/incompetent they are, and how confusing their statements are.

I don't think a flight to PEK is just by chance in this case. A plane with +150 Chinese on board would mean that China would have a primary role in the investigation, pushing Malaysian authorities for results.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 00:36:33 and read 16688 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 301):
It depends on the statement you want to make. Hitting the Petronas Tower would likely make the pilot a "terrorist", and nobody would question the government. An outcome would be easy to establish (Plane hits tower in KL. Period). Malaysian government would receive support from the US and other countries/international organizations in order to figure out potential terrorist plots. When countries are deeply shocked by an event of this type, usually the government emerges stronger, since even non-supporters will align in such exceptional circumstances (it will be seen at least of "bad taste" trying to build political influence over hundreds - or likely thousands if you hit the Petronas - deaths).Under the current circumstances, the Malaysian government has been in the global spotlight for more than a week just showing how lost/incompetent they are, and how confusing their statements are.I don't think a flight to PEK is just by chance in this case. A plane with +150 Chinese on board would mean that China would have a primary role in the investigation, pushing Malaysian authorities for results.

Good point!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 00:38:10 and read 16638 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 301):

And killing 238 people will leave the pilot as plain suicider? Oh, come on.

[Edited 2014-03-18 00:39:33]

[Edited 2014-03-18 00:49:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-18 00:42:39 and read 16412 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 296):
Was that aircraft VTOL capable, or how did it come to rest fully intact in the jungle? Sorry, not meaning to mock the guy who found the image... at least he's actively trying to do something.

no that was not in Indonsia at all (but in the Andaman islands, check the map reference given against tomnodmaplocator.com) and a plane in flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-18 00:51:00 and read 15936 times.

It would be smart to retrace a route as much as they can. They can see how a plane in that area may show up on primary radar, and see how it correlates to the earlier radar images. Maybe that helped verify it was probably a 777 crossing back over Malaysia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: Enobar
Posted 2014-03-18 00:55:25 and read 15810 times.

Can I just throw a potential spanner in the works of the suicide theory...

I don't have specific knowledge of aviation insurance policies, but not ALL life insurance policies exclude suicide - at least not here in Australia anyway. I have a policy (and it's not a tiny one - over $1 million) which precluded suicide for a period of 5 years from inception. After that, it is actually covered.

The thought process that he would have to hide evidence of suicide is not necessarily valid in all cases. It may be, I might add, but it is not guaranteed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 00:58:23 and read 15466 times.

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 285):

You don't have to be an experienced pilot to change altimeter knob to 45000.

[Edited 2014-03-18 01:01:31]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 00:59:55 and read 15488 times.

it's not suicide it's criminal anti-government protest. Direct action. Occupy Wall Street taken to a lunatic extreme. News outlets say he attended the trial 7 hours before taking off. How many people arranged their life to be there, to watch the verdict! he was deeply invested and very angry. IMO of course. It just isn't a simple murder suicide.

[Edited 2014-03-18 01:01:32]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 01:06:51 and read 15038 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 308):
it's not suicide it's criminal anti-government protest. Direct action.

If it was a protest, the protester did a pretty terrible job of communicating their message to anyone whatsoever.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-18 01:16:26 and read 15339 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue the discussion in part 34 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks and regards,

SA7700


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