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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-18 01:11:29 and read 62289 times.

Due to length part 33 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 34:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

***********************************************************************************************


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**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to past / current movies or possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

**** PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT QUESTIONS AND SCENARIOS THAT HAS BEEN COVERED AND DISCUSSED IN PREVIOUS THREADS AND WHICH DO NOT CONTRIBUTE OR APPLY, IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER, TOWARDS THIS CONVERSATION ANY LONGER. ****

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Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 01:21:29 and read 62300 times.

From the previous thread,

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 308):
it's not suicide it's criminal anti-government protest. Direct action. Occupy Wall Street taken to a lunatic extreme. News outlets say he attended the trial 7 hours before taking off. How many people arranged their life to be there, to watch the verdict! he was deeply invested and very angry. IMO of course. It just isn't a simple murder suicide.
Quoting dandelany (Reply 309):
If it was a protest, the protester did a pretty terrible job of communicating their message to anyone whatsoever.

That's what bothering most Msians. Will they ever get to know the truth if that was the case?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-18 01:23:40 and read 62176 times.

To this comment (from last page, reply 301).....

"It depends on the statement you want to make. Hitting the Petronas Tower would likely make the pilot a "terrorist", and nobody would question the government. An outcome would be easy to establish (Plane hits tower in KL. Period). Malaysian government would receive support from the US and other countries/international organizations in order to figure out potential terrorist plots.

When countries are deeply shocked by an event of this type, usually the government emerges stronger, since even non-supporters will align in such exceptional circumstances (it will be seen at least of "bad taste" trying to build political influence over hundreds - or likely thousands if you hit the Petronas - deaths).

Under the current circumstances, the Malaysian government has been in the global spotlight for more than a week just showing how lost/incompetent they are, and how confusing their statements are".

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't think the 9/11 terrorists did their attack to make the United States look stronger.

They hated the United States. They went after a symbol of their strength and power and money.

If you are mad at a government , you may go after its symbols of pride, and money. Certainly the towers would be such a symbol in Malaysia. Probably as much as any other. Besides, hate usually defies logic.

As far as making the country look weak... a successful attack by a full airliner on the Petronas Towers would do that.

It would make people question how a defense force could allow another September 11th all these years later.

[Edited 2014-03-18 01:24:30]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Shmendr
Posted 2014-03-18 01:25:06 and read 62192 times.

Reuters reporting that search area in India Ocean drastically cut due to new information from NTSB after Satellite Data analysis.

"The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) shrunk its search field to a 600,000 sq km (230,000 sq mile) corridor, just 3 percent of the estimated 19 million sq km area in the Indian Ocean where the plane could be, based on satellite tracking data."

"AMSA said its revision of the search area was based on analysis of satellite data collected from the plane by the United States National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) it received on Monday."

I assume the NTSB was also able to narrow down the area to equivalent sq. miles in the North?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...es-australia-idUSBREA2H07J20140318

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 01:36:01 and read 61741 times.

Quoting Shmendr (Reply 3):
"The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) shrunk its search field to a 600,000 sq km (230,000 sq mile) corridor, just 3 percent of the estimated 19 million sq km area in the Indian Ocean where the plane could be, based on satellite tracking data."

Or to put it in context, about the size of 1 200 000 000 football fields assuming my maths is correct.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: monjonman
Posted 2014-03-18 01:36:12 and read 61657 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 2):

But still why no communication to that effect .I am still thinking it was a botched hijacking by someone with limited knowledge of the systems.
Who then inadvertently compromised the aircraft and themselves in the process.
Motive could possibly have been asylum to Australia as we have recently been making it harder for boat arrivals seeking asylum off our coast sending them back to Indonesia .

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2014-03-18 01:39:17 and read 61551 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 2):
I don't think the 9/11 terrorists did their attack to make the United States look stronger.

Don't expect rational intentions or explanations from terrorists. The 9/11 terrorists hated the "West" and all that was connected to it.

They lost in the beginning because the USA received the sympathi at least from the western world.

They won finally because the US introduced the Patriot Act which took away civil liberties.

terrorists fight for a cause and if they win that fight they have to Keep the fire glowing because they can never cope with reality.

If MH370 was seized by terrorists is not clear yet and just an Option taken as Explanation of the unexplainable.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 01:41:28 and read 61501 times.

From that reuters article: "Ships in the southern Indian Ocean have been requested to keep a lookout and to travel through the search area if possible. One ship is currently in the area, with another due to travel through on Wednesday."
And the area is 230000 sq.km. And the ships are just passing by...well, I really want to wish best possible luck, but I mean, oh well...I never really imagined there are such incredibly vast areas of wilderness on the planet.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-18 01:42:38 and read 61401 times.

I recall discussions on the captain's political interests but don't recall reading of his family ties before:

Malaysia opposition leader Anwar admits MH370 pilot is his relative
Opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim has admitted that Malaysia Airlines MH370 pilot Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah is related to his son's in-laws.

"I am not denying that he (Zaharie) is related to one of my in-laws and that I have met him on several occasions.

"In fact, he is a close friend of (PKR supreme council member and Subang MP) R. Sivarasa, as we said before," Mr Anwar told reporters at the Parliament lobby here on Tuesday."
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...s-mh370-pilot-his-relative-2014031

China says has 21 satellites looking for missing Malaysian jet
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...rlines-china-idUSBREA2H04420140318

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-18 01:46:48 and read 61207 times.

Maybe no communication due to it being the act of only a few, and not a cell of large group.

Or they planned to announce a message later in the flight via radio, but the plane depressurized.

Or maybe the message will be on someones computer.

I don't know. There are many mysteries in any scenario.

I just obviously think it was a botched attack, and then plane flew off with no one flying it. And I think if the plane flew north, some country would have detected it, or a land crash.

So I think it went in the ocean. Which is a big area to search. But hopefully, it just got narrowed down.


Plus, there was never really a message sent after 9/11 I don't think. Just like here.

[Edited 2014-03-18 01:49:07]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 01:47:26 and read 61217 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 7):
And the area is 230000 sq.km. And the ships are just passing by...well, I really want to wish best possible luck, but I mean, oh well...I never really imagined there are such incredibly vast areas of wilderness on the planet.

230000 square miles - 600000 sq.km - 1 200 000 000 football fields.

[Edited 2014-03-18 01:50:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-18 01:53:09 and read 60925 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
230000 square miles - 600000 sq.km.

That is almost the size of Texas or two Germanies.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-18 01:53:27 and read 60978 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 7):
I never really imagined there are such incredibly vast areas of wilderness on the planet

Perhaps this map will help you see how big the Pacific, Indian and Southern Oceans are. The internationally-agreed Australian Search and Rescue Region covers 52.8 million square kilometres - over one-tenth of the earth's surface!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-18 01:55:15 and read 60825 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Don't expect rational intentions or explanations from terrorists. The 9/11 terrorists hated the "West" and all that was connected to it.

I agree. As I said, I believe hate defies logic.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tim73
Posted 2014-03-18 01:58:04 and read 60618 times.

Pretty hopeless to find it that far away in ocean unless they find that 30 day black box ping sound in time. They might someday find some piece of debris thousands of kilometers away washed onshore. The bodies are by now fish food.

[Edited 2014-03-18 02:00:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 01:58:33 and read 60631 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 12):

Quoting k83713 (Reply 7):
I never really imagined there are such incredibly vast areas of wilderness on the planet

Perhaps this map will help you see how big the Pacific, Indian and Southern Oceans are. The internationally-agreed Australian Search and Rescue Region covers 52.8 million square kilometres - over one-tenth of the earth's surface!

I'll grant you that the Australian SSR is huge but that map uses a Mercator projection so it severely distorts area, making it seem increasingly bigger than reality the further you go from the Equator.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 02:00:23 and read 60516 times.

With all the technology in today and they still can't find this plane?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 02:01:10 and read 60588 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 1):
That's what bothering most Msians. Will they ever get to know the truth if that was the case?

I think this is significant, pilot related to Anwar:
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...s-mh370-pilot-his-relative-2014031

[Edited 2014-03-18 02:07:16]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: icanfly
Posted 2014-03-18 02:03:38 and read 60491 times.

The one aspect of the hijacking, terrorism and suicide theories that doesn't make sense to me is, why choose the flight to PEK? If the intended destination was Central Asia, a flight to Europe would have been a better choice. If the intended destination was the southern Indian Ocean, the aircraft could have turned south over the Bay of Bengal. In either case the backtrack over the Gulf of Thailand and Malay Peninsula could have been avoided.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 02:05:06 and read 60355 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 16):
With all the technology in today and they still can't find this plane?

Technology is often severely overrated in these cases.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-18 02:10:04 and read 60075 times.

Quoting icanfly (Reply 18):
The one aspect of the hijacking, terrorism and suicide theories that doesn't make sense to me is, why choose the flight to PEK? If the intended destination was Central Asia, a flight to Europe would have been a better choice. If the intended destination was the southern Indian Ocean, the aircraft could have turned south over the Bay of Bengal. In either case the backtrack over the Gulf of Thailand and Malay Peninsula could have been avoided.

Unless the target was something very close.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-18 02:12:29 and read 60004 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
I'll grant you that the Australian SSR is huge but that map uses a Mercator projection so it severely distorts area, making it seem increasingly bigger than reality the further you go from the Equator.

Agreed. The maps people look at most of the time are Mercator projections with Europe at the top and centre. That usually means the Pacific is split and placed on the two edges of the map. I posted the link mainly because it places the Pacific and Indian Oceans together, emphasising the large proportion of the globe they occupy. Of course, if you look further at the linked map, you'll notice that the equator has been placed more than halfway up the map, so some of the Southern Ocean and all of Antarctica are missing, while important features like Greenland are included...  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 02:13:46 and read 60021 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 17):

Not really. Capt Zaharie supposedly is the uncle of his daughter in law. It is common to call even a distant relative as uncle or aunty.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 02:17:40 and read 59807 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 17):

Yeah, and that would explain his attention to the trial, but that would not explain his suicide with 238 other people on board after 7 hours of flying in secret from the rest of the world.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 02:19:39 and read 59710 times.

related by marriage is still the extended family. Initially there were denials he was even a member of the party! What are the chances that the same day conviction of a big political figure would be linked only by chance to the PIC of the first major plane hijacking for years?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 02:21:11 and read 61275 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 22):
Quoting jelliesR (Reply 17):

Not really. Capt Zaharie supposedly is the uncle of his daughter in law. It is common to call even a distant relative as uncle or aunty.

To clarify, this kind of title is common in many countries in East and Southeast Asia. It can even be used without any real family ties, and is then known as fictive kinship. For example calling a nanny "auntie" and an older man "big brother" in China, or an older woman "big sister" in The Philippines.

[Edited 2014-03-18 02:24:03]

[Edited 2014-03-18 02:24:22]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 02:22:16 and read 61489 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 23):

Capt Zaharie is a popular and much loved personality. However, we cannot dismiss the possible impact of the trial on many Msians. If not for MH370 everyone would be talking about it.


This is a video paying tribute to Zaharie. Hard to believe he would do something so sinister.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi8DIaqBnW4

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hawk21m
Posted 2014-03-18 02:23:07 and read 63786 times.

What about the IMARSAT last ping on the mapped areas....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 02:25:27 and read 63755 times.

Live PC in 10 minutes. You can catch them via astroawani or BFM89.9 . IPhone users can download the apps.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: oly720man
Posted 2014-03-18 02:26:48 and read 63332 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 16):
With all the technology in today and they still can't find this plane?

Technology is often severely overrated in these cases.

And it is more difficult if "the technology" is turned off or disabled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-18 02:28:36 and read 63266 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 24):
related by marriage is still the extended family. Initially there were denials he was even a member of the party! What are the chances that the same day conviction of a big political figure would be linked only by chance to the PIC of the first major plane hijacking for years?

Years? It's only been a few months.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-18 02:31:45 and read 63155 times.

The press conference will be at the same URL as yesterday: http://www.astroawani.com/videos/live

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 02:32:12 and read 63155 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 24):

No. That's incorrect. His friend and MP tweeted as early as Sat or Sunday Zaharie was a life member of PKR. He never denied.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: monjonman
Posted 2014-03-18 02:34:07 and read 62974 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 24):

I personally can not see someone performing such a radical act for something which does not directly affect them.
So what if this politician goes to gaol for a few years ,most of them should be in there anyway!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 02:34:11 and read 62902 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 26):

Thanks for the link, Tapir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 02:37:39 and read 63049 times.

"After it was speculated that the pilot was present during the trial of Ibrahim, following which he got a five-year jail sentence for sodomy charges, his People's Justice Party, aka Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR) has admitted that Shah campaigned for the party. "

it sounded like a reluctant and late admission / but maybe that is just the press spin.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-18 02:41:38 and read 62892 times.

Today's PC:

- Listing search assets ...
- Reiterated belief that ACARS was deliberately turned off without saying why.
- Police investigation no new comment.
- No other news from the minister.

Now to questions - I wonder if any will have any value ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: stealthz
Posted 2014-03-18 02:42:11 and read 62899 times.

And the condescending nature of US media knows no bounds...

From http://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-the-...laysia-airli-1545497359/@ericlimer

"The US Navy, along with various tidbits from the Australian Navy, the Indian Navy, and the Singaporean Navy, is searching this southern zone.
The USS Kidd has been involved for some days but to say "the US Navy, along with various tidbits" is offensive to all the countries and the service people involved.
Considering their resources the US is a minor player in this effort

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hawk21m
Posted 2014-03-18 02:47:45 and read 62217 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 36):

Better to save the varied news and disclose most after the aircraft is found as disclosure could be used by those involved to further hide the details which could otherwise be found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: smokeybandit
Posted 2014-03-18 02:56:04 and read 61649 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 37):
And the condescending nature of US media knows no bounds...

The article is about the US Navy's search efforts. While no doubt the US media is condescending (and quite often wrong) there's nothing wrong with the article you linked.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: blueshamu330s
Posted 2014-03-18 02:59:23 and read 61560 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 37):

And the condescending nature of US media knows no bounds...

From http://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-the-...laysia-airli-1545497359/@ericlimer

"The US Navy, along with various tidbits from the Australian Navy, the Indian Navy, and the Singaporean Navy, is searching this southern zone.
The USS Kidd has been involved for some days but to say "the US Navy, along with various tidbits" is offensive to all the countries and the service people involved.
Considering their resources the US is a minor player in this effort

I must admit, I was thinking exactly the same thing. It's the Captain America syndrome; USA to the rescue. It's what their audience want to see and hear.

Rgds

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-18 03:01:57 and read 61315 times.

China is beginning a land search on its territory:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26609569

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: stealthz
Posted 2014-03-18 03:04:45 and read 60871 times.

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 39):
there's nothing wrong with the article you linked.

As a generic - How sea searches are conducted - the article is fine, the inference that the search is being conducted by the US with minor assistance from others is incorrect.
Indeed the current US assets are a single P-3 and P-8, The Kidd has returned to it's normal duties.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-18 03:09:16 and read 60923 times.

One update from the PC, the head of Malaysian Airways said they believed the transponder was switched off at 1:21 am.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 03:10:07 and read 60547 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 42):

Thanks for interesting link indeed. In relation to P-3 it's explained that it looks for metallic parts in the ocean. Modern airplane has in fact very few steel parts, but mainly aluminum and carbon fiber. What's the use then or it's capable to detect Al as well?

[Edited 2014-03-18 03:13:11]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-18 03:12:54 and read 60590 times.

Area search chart released by AMSA:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjAGK9kCQAAvmfN.jpg:large

Image can be found in their media kit:
http://drive.google.com/folderview?i...iQpM1dxMzdSTHRMeW8&usp=sharing

[Edited 2014-03-18 03:15:03]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: turn720
Posted 2014-03-18 03:16:11 and read 60160 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 37):

And the condescending nature of US media knows no bounds...

Here's an idea since you seem to be offended by this story. Why don't you give us a link to an article about an Australian navy ship that has been out searching for the plane since day one. I promise I'll read it.

Also, if American news which is geared towards an American audience offends you stop reading it. I don't read Australian news myself just because of that reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-18 03:21:33 and read 59813 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 44):
Thanks for interesting link indeed. In relation to P-3 it's explained that it looks for metallic parts in the ocean. Modern airplane has in fact very few steel parts, but mainly aluminum and carbon fiber. What's the use then or it's capable to detect Al as well?

Engines maybe? Landing gear? Find them, you may find the plane...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 03:21:42 and read 59809 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 34):

You're welcome. That video actually made me to be extra cautious with my words before implicating someone. It must be very painful for his family. Apparently, his daughter lives in Australia..

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 35):

That must be from The Star. Capt Zaharie is just an ordinary life member like the rest of thousands of PKR members, You can't remember everyone. The full fact is irrelevant for this forum but to put things in perspective. Anwar confirmed recognising him after showing photograph of him with Zaharie. The could be thousands of photos like that involving many.

[Edited 2014-03-18 03:30:20]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 03:29:37 and read 59006 times.

Ah, sorry, in the bottom of that article it was clarified in fact, that it will not use this sensor as primary for exactly that reason of lacking ferrous parts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 03:29:38 and read 59281 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 44):
Quoting stealthz (Reply 42):

Thanks for interesting link indeed. In relation to P-3 it's explained that it looks for metallic parts in the ocean. Modern airplane has in fact very few steel parts, but mainly aluminum and carbon fiber. What's the use then or it's capable to detect Al as well?

In an airliner that weighs 138 tons empty the amount of steel is non-trivial. Much more than random seafloor features anyway.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Shmendr
Posted 2014-03-18 03:30:04 and read 59201 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 45):
Area search chart released by AMSA:

Thanks much for the maps, flood.

It sounded like the search area has been reduced to China & Kazakhstan, in addition to the India Ocean, based on the press conference. Based on the map provided by the Australian Government & the comments at the press conference, I've approximated search area in the north. Map attached. (very rough estimation)


Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: nakb
Posted 2014-03-18 03:38:54 and read 58961 times.

Very interesting Australian press conference. Shmendr has done approx mirror image of Aussie search area but would be good if someone could do an accurate mirror image of both the area and two potential tracks, adjusting for sea currents and wind (press conference said that the southern area included those adjustments, but obviously they wouldn't apply to northern area).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 03:40:21 and read 58122 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 50):

Also true, thanks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-18 03:41:07 and read 58448 times.

I haven't seen any mention of this here, and I have searched the last couple threads, so forgive me if this is old news.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...a/malaysia-airlines-flight.html?hp

NYT is saying that the route was altered via the FMC. How they know that information, or indeed how they COULD know that information, is entirely beyond me.

EDIT: It occurs to me that it is obvious that the waypoints the plane used to cross the Malacca Straits would have to be entered into the FMC or flown manually via the map with waypoints showing, so yes, of course the FMC would be used to be reprogrammed.

The NYT article above seems to be saying that there is direct evidence that the FMC was used to program these waypoints. The wording is not crystal-clear, but that is how I interpret it after reading it several times.

[Edited 2014-03-18 03:44:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2014-03-18 03:44:39 and read 58480 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 45):
Area search chart released by AMSA:

This is completly ridiculous, it makes no sense that MH370 would be down there.

The other pings were captured by more than one sattilite, just triangulate and that will debunk this stupid southern search once and for all..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-18 03:46:49 and read 58069 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):
The other pings were captured by more than one sattilite, just triangulate and that will debunk this stupid southern search once and for all..

Yes, you certainly have better access to privileged, highly complex information, and are better at analyzing it, than the SAR faculties of some couple dozen nations. Well done!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-18 03:49:15 and read 57698 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):
This is completly ridiculous, it makes no sense that MH370 would be down there.

The other pings were captured by more than one sattilite, just triangulate and that will debunk this stupid southern search once and for all..

Why does it make no sense? And the evidence for more than one satellite?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: oly720man
Posted 2014-03-18 03:51:30 and read 57478 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):
This is completly ridiculous, it makes no sense that MH370 would be down there.

Assuming that.....?

Since no-one knows what happened in the plane, no-one can say where it was sensible for it to be. It could be everyone on the plane was dead and it had been programmed to fly south until it ran out of fuel. Or someone was heading for Australia and got lost.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-18 03:54:16 and read 57281 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):
This is completly ridiculous, it makes no sense that MH370 would be down there.

The other pings were captured by more than one sattilite, just triangulate and that will debunk this stupid southern search once and for all..

It makes perfect sense compared to all the silly theories about the aircraft shadowing other flight to stay off radar & then landing somewhere without anyone noticing anything during all these days.

Only southern route really makes some sense as one could just fly there without having to do too much of fancy stuff to avoid radar contact.

[Edited 2014-03-18 03:55:18]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LandSweetLand
Posted 2014-03-18 03:56:52 and read 57034 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
To clarify, this kind of title is common in many countries in East and Southeast Asia.

I know when I was young (really young) our neighbours were nicknamed auntie such and such.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 54):
NYT is saying that the route was altered via the FMC. How they know that information, or indeed how they COULD know that information, is entirely beyond me.

I think it was mentioned in part 33, that the points they tracked it to matched known way-points, and that a human pilot couldn't hit them all perfectly or something.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-18 03:58:31 and read 57022 times.

If China is searching their own territory for MH370, what does that say about the effectiveness of their air defence system? Ok, its the remote parts in the Southwest, but still telling.

One winner in this whole tragedy is clear, the manufacturers of (military) radar systems. A number of countries might be obliged to install new, more effective systems.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 04:00:11 and read 56899 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):

Don't start religious war with such strong claims!   no, honestly, with the amount of information we have it's not far away from superstitious beliefs which arc prevails...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SamH123
Posted 2014-03-18 04:01:20 and read 56899 times.

Did the Malaysia military radar track not record MH370 hitting way points in the Malacca strait flying north?
(as discussed in the Keith Ledgerwood article http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/po...es-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68)

I guess these are quite low confidence given all the searching on the South route?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LandSweetLand
Posted 2014-03-18 04:06:33 and read 56214 times.

Quoting SamH123 (Reply 63):
track not record

How are you differentiating the two?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-18 04:06:36 and read 56248 times.

Quoting SamH123 (Reply 63):
I guess these are quite low confidence given all the searching on the South route?

One should think so, but the supposed route is zigzagging a bit and probably not really trustworthy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-18 04:09:21 and read 56431 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 44):
Thanks for interesting link indeed. In relation to P-3 it's explained that it looks for metallic parts in the ocean. Modern airplane has in fact very few steel parts, but mainly aluminum and carbon fiber. What's the use then or it's capable to detect Al as well?

The Australian AP-3Cs are heavily modified P3 making them more of a C3ISTAR platform, they can detect very small surface targets at some range (like debris), as well as deploying sensors to listen for underwater locator beacons that are located on aircraft data recorders (these have a very limited range). They have very capable onboard processing of the information gathered, they can also transmit information elsewhere for further data analysis. The can also work with other airborne, surface, and below surface assets which may or may not already be in the area.

Australia has had detachments of P-3s in Butterworth for over 30 years, Malaysia and Australia have a very good relationship on the surveillance front, and understand their capabilities.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-18 04:14:16 and read 55834 times.

Quoting na (Reply 65):
One should think so, but the supposed route is zigzagging a bit and probably not really trustworthy.

well if you look at it, perhaps didn't pass both VAMPI and GIVAL (red lroute) but rather
one of them or in the middle of them (blue route) ? But this still returned a radar contact
for both waypoints? I don't know how accurate the radars are.

http://i.imgur.com/PwuVqzb.png

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-18 04:15:33 and read 55593 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):
This is completly ridiculous, it makes no sense that MH370 would be down there.

The other pings were captured by more than one sattilite, just triangulate and that will debunk this stupid southern search once and for all..

I feel the same, although I wouldn't be so sharp on something I don't have the absolutely certainty, especially when searching for missing people.

I think I share with you the concern about that search area (besides much less probable IMHO), is not preventing any of the posible next and HUGE threats, if there would be any, as opposite as search in the northern option

[Edited 2014-03-18 04:17:16]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-18 04:16:18 and read 55561 times.

Quoting hamiltondaniel (Reply 54):
NYT is saying that the route was altered via the FMC. How they know that information, or indeed how they COULD know that information, is entirely beyond me.

Depends on how they are linked to to ATC, if via ADS, that gives ATC the last, and next two waypoints from the FMC.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 04:18:00 and read 55452 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 66):

Thank you. How do you listen underwater beacon from the plane though? Range of those beacons detection in water is 3 km appr, and with airborne sensor you still above the actual medium where soundwave goes.

[Edited 2014-03-18 04:19:57]

[Edited 2014-03-18 04:20:56]

[Edited 2014-03-18 04:23:26]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Pohakuloa
Posted 2014-03-18 04:20:11 and read 55223 times.

Read every reply so far and I'm a slow reader. throwing my speculation as to why in a couple of different perspectives... here we go...

*****SPECULATION*****

If this indeed has been carried out by the Captain or flight deck as a whole, the entire point could have been to provide worldwide proof of the relative incompetence of the Malaysian govt. I know others have alluded as such as well. The only thing that gets me with this is that if it was the intent and he/they did use their knowledge of radar shortcomings and weaknesses, what would lead him to put it down in the ocean and likely with some or all fatalities? or even down on land somewhere with no/little most on board as casualties? i guess if this is the case it might never be known.... unless there are indeed survivors recovered.

if this has been done with malicious intent and it is indeed hidden on land for a future attack, i am wondering about those 20 employees. i have tried to follow the tracking of them on these threads and from what i have seen they were ruled out as people who could do something with weapons (feel free to correct me, it would help me follow better), but could they have the knowledge to make said 777 an enormous drone? if so this would be my speculative "it could happen" scenario... fair warning, it is grim... Finding a nuclear device would likely have happened already for this silent faction. They dont need it to be large, just with a legitimate punch (its not about the known nuclear devices on earth, its that one we dont know about that scares me). Device placed in 777 and aircraft is filled and topped off with fuel somehow (hey they pulled the rest of it off so far, why not!?) and bodies of deceased placed in aircraft as well. Drone 777 is flown and attempts to get through any major areas airspace. If this is accomplished they dont need to crash it into anything... they just need to get it close to the main sector of a power grid and detonate and the EMP would take care of their intent, in the process eliminating all evidence, or most all of it.

i know to penetrate far enough is not likely, but if it got that far I'd say their chances were greater than most. My thought's since these other plausible scenarios emerged is not a massive missile with the aircraft, but rather a vessel to carry a small yet effective EMP. This would be a fail safe, if you will, that you wouldn't have to be on target, just close enough and airborne, not even needing to crash to the ground. Taking out the power grid and comms of a civilized nation/continental district even would likely cause more terror and mayhem than we would know what to do with at the time.

*****END SPECULATION*****

I personally would like to see the happiest ending possible where the pilot accomplished his task, landed safely in some remote area where it is rather barren, but still close enough and in the open to be found before the planes rations or locations resources could be depleted to cause malnutrition related deaths. But in reality I am just hoping for closure in one way or another for the families of those on board.

Edit to add: I know it's not likely in my speculation, but nothing seems very likely at this point.

Regards,
Pohakuloa

[Edited 2014-03-18 04:21:54]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: nakb
Posted 2014-03-18 04:24:31 and read 54983 times.

Quoting SamH123 (Reply 63):
I guess these are quite low confidence given all the searching on the South route?

Don't think that follows. Southern option is being searched (a) because we can, given that only the Chinese can search the northern equivalent area, and (b) to try and exclude it as an option.

I've tried to reflect the southern search area into the north but have been defeated by not having the graphics s/w to hand to compensate for different map projections. Be good if someone better equipped can do that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-18 04:24:49 and read 54937 times.

Has there been any word from Thailand as to whether they tracked the plane at all? According to this blog, they have highly capable radars (http://alert5.com/2014/03/17/three-rtaf-air-defense-radars-that-could-have-seen-mh370/) that cover the presumed route as it headed NW toward the Andaman's from the last know position picked up by the Malaysians. India and Indonesia are reported to have said nothing, although in the case of India their radars on the Andamans are only used on an as needed basis, so they could easily have missed something. But I don't recall anything from the Thais.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: nakb
Posted 2014-03-18 04:27:30 and read 54770 times.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 71):
but could they have the knowledge to make said 777 an enormous drone

Possibly we need a parallel thread for the Iron Man / Avengers Assemble type theories  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-18 04:33:51 and read 54374 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 70):
How do you listen underwater beacon from the plane though?

They deploy a network of sensors (directional frequency analysis and recording sonobuoy) into the water over an area that have the capability to "listen" for the underwater locator beacon. Those sensors have the ability to transmit the data to the AP-3Cs, P-8s, and E7-A as well as to satellites for further signal processing.

The sensors provide more than just the underwater sounds (which include sounds inaudible to humans like the locator beacons), they can give other environmental measurements like temperatures, sea state, underwater layers, and their movement can be tracked to determine currents.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 04:34:45 and read 54221 times.

Quoting nakb (Reply 74):

Exactly   but even if serious, why not to steal a cargo jet then without world attention to the fate of passengers?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-18 04:38:52 and read 54531 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 68):
I think I share with you the concern about that search area (besides much less probable IMHO), is not preventing any of the posible next and HUGE threats, if there would be any, as opposite as search in the northern option

If some group was capable enough of hijacking & landing the 777 in one piece somewhere, don't you seriously think they wouldn't hide the aircraft so well that search efforts wouldn't find anything?

If the aircraft indeed went North and landed somewhere intact by now it will be so well hidden that air searches would be useless. If they find something from north it will be a wreckage, not a flyable aircraft.

Every day it's becoming less likely the aircraft is still in one piece somewhere. If it was it would have been used already, waiting would only increase their risks of getting caught.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-18 04:40:52 and read 54618 times.

Just found this;

Quote:
"MH370 – Airports in flight range on Google Earth"
Over the weekend, several initiatives mapped airports that could serve as potential
landing spots for missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370. WNYC first mapped large
airports within MH370′s flight range onto Google Maps; then David Strip used data from
OurAirports to cast a wider net of potential landing spots and put that in Google Maps.

http://ogleearth.com/2014/03/mh370-a...s-in-flight-range-on-google-earth/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: enilria
Posted 2014-03-18 04:40:55 and read 54300 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 76):
Exactly but even if serious, why not to steal a cargo jet then without world attention to the fate of passengers?

I'm guessing it is because none had the range of this 777. NYC?

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 71):
if this has been done with malicious intent and it is indeed hidden on land for a future attack, i am wondering about those 20 employees. i have tried to follow the tracking of them on these threads and from what i have seen they were ruled out as people who could do something with weapons (feel free to correct me, it would help me follow better), but could they have the knowledge to make said 777 an enormous drone? if so this would be my speculative "it could happen" scenario... fair warning, it is grim... Finding a nuclear device would likely have happened already for this silent faction. They dont need it to be large, just with a legitimate punch (its not about the known nuclear devices on earth, its that one we dont know about that scares me). Device placed in 777 and aircraft is filled and topped off with fuel somehow (hey they pulled the rest of it off so far, why not!?) and bodies of deceased placed in aircraft as well. Drone 777 is flown and attempts to get through any major areas airspace. If this is accomplished they dont need to crash it into anything... they just need to get it close to the main sector of a power grid and detonate and the EMP would take care of their intent, in the process eliminating all evidence, or most all of it.

The only argument I'm going to make is to say that there seems to be no shortage of people willing to die for the cause, so making it into a drone seems unnecessary.

This plane is/was in Afghanistan/Pakistan IMHO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 04:41:54 and read 54121 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 75):

Are those sensors reusable? Must be very expensive if not - you dropped it and then you have to cover next field, but to collect it from the aircraft is not possiblle...

[Edited 2014-03-18 04:54:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hamiltondaniel
Posted 2014-03-18 04:44:18 and read 54150 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 69):
Depends on how they are linked to to ATC, if via ADS, that gives ATC the last, and next two waypoints from the FMC.

Wow, did not know this capability existed! If that is indeed where NYT got that, that would be a pretty huge slip-up on the part of the pilot/s/hijacker/s, no? Revealing where they were headed before turning off the transponder?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: enilria
Posted 2014-03-18 04:47:48 and read 53860 times.

Poorly written article, but I agree with the concerns...

http://www.saharasamay.com/world-new...an-controlled-afghan-pakistan.html

A Taliban spokesperson denies they have the plane...which is worth what exactly?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...jack-missing-Malaysia-Airlines-jet

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SamH123
Posted 2014-03-18 04:51:06 and read 53354 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 76):
Exactly   but even if serious, why not to steal a cargo jet then without world attention to the fate of passengers?

Maybe a cargo jet would be much harder to steal - how are you meant to get on one if you are not a pilot? (I am no expert though)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 04:52:50 and read 53220 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 79):

I don't think so. Range is not the issue here, since in any kind of plane you will go through the same radar scan of airspace, either it took off 1000 nm before or 7000 nm before...I think we will witness a lot of changes to toughen sky awareness now, especially if MH is not found.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-18 05:01:43 and read 52550 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 77):
If some group was capable enough of hijacking & landing the 777 in one piece somewhere, don't you seriously think they wouldn't hide the aircraft so well that search efforts wouldn't find anything?

So, if that is the case, we could only await the fate of where they will throw it as a weapon?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 77):

If the aircraft indeed went North and landed somewhere intact by now it will be so well hidden that air searches would be useless. If they find something from north it will be a wreckage, not a flyable aircraft.

They would have to deploy it in a sort of runway to take it off. Besides, it should be stored under a 70 x 70 m. in the best of cases, not too far to that runway.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 77):

Every day it's becoming less likely the aircraft is still in one piece somewhere. If it was it would have been used already, waiting would only increase their risks of getting caught.

Wasn't it so useless to try to discover and catch them?. So we shouldn't be in a hurry to try to find them if they are terrorists and are alive, but still, they would have used already the aircraft, regardless of their evil possibilities, because the risks of getting caught?. I don't understand.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-18 05:29:30 and read 50210 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 79):
This plane is/was in Afghanistan/Pakistan IMHO.

You mean, were the US has so many radar installations and military? Sure...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 05:32:07 and read 50278 times.

Quote:
Rather than manually operating the plane’s controls, whoever altered Flight 370’s path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer situated between the captain and the co-pilot, according to officials.

The computer is called the Flight Management System. It directs the plane from point to point specified in the flight plan submitted before a flight.

It is not clear whether the plane’s path was reprogrammed before or after it took off, the Times said.
http://news.yahoo.com/malaysia-plane...ed-cockpit-computer-062047053.html

Another report about an entry into the computer...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 05:35:57 and read 49844 times.

Quoting LH526 (Reply 86):
In case of a deliberate murder of the pax & crew in the cabin by a suicidal cockpit crew member and given the amount of portable oxygen masks and axes oonboard, what are the chances of a group of 2-3 people entering the cockpit (with oxygen to breathe and enough force from the axes) in order to regain control over the aircraft?

Most likely the passengers and cabin crew would perceive the situation as an emergency and would stay on their seats, provided that the other pilot is incapacitated in the cockpit. They would have no reason to believe that the situation is something else than an emergency until it is way too late.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-18 05:42:16 and read 49198 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 37):
Considering their resources the US is a minor player in this effort

US could ramp up its resources considerably, but we have a "leak" problem.

Every blogger tweeting "my source said ..." within minutes of a supposed to be confidential briefing took toll on Malaysia-USA trust. That's the reason USA has to scale back.

It is good to have sources in high places, journalists/bloggers have to publish just enough to lead the story, and not quote minutes of the meeting. With 11+ countries involved there absolute no need to say "my source said % probability this will never be found". It doesn't serve any purpose.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-18 05:43:45 and read 48989 times.

Have any other the other 6 or 7 satellite ping distance circles been plotted? I've only seen the last one. It might be useful to have a map of all satellite distance circles, plus the radar track from Thailand and Malaysia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Kelloggs
Posted 2014-03-18 05:46:13 and read 48686 times.

Just to go back to some earlier posts in earlier threads with the possibility that it may have been landed somewhere well in the last couple of days ANA landed a 77W at Wellington NZ (I think that the code is WGN) on Monday and today took off again using just over half of the runway length. OK it was carrying a "delegation" so not a full pax and cargo load and on landing without a doubt had a light fuel load (direct from Tokyo to Wellywood). However what was in the news over it did not state the size of said "delegation" nor if the flight out was "Direct" back to point of origin. Air NZ have also landed a 77W on that short runway which I believe was the black one ZK-OKQ. Now having grown up there and now living in the land of Oz given that I have done FIFO work here most mine site and provincial runways here are about the same length yet I forget the figures. Perhaps a more learned member can help here.

The link to the vid of it taking off is here http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...840928/Delegation-flies-out-on-777 and from that you should be able to find the footage of it landing. I do actually remember when Qantas landed the 74SP there for the first time. It was a family day out and I'm in the photo of that event which appears on this site.

Just a bit of food for thought as we really do not know what has happened. Where it has ended up nor the fate of those on board. I'm not really sure that we will know this yet I am sure that there is something sinister afoot

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: scouseflyer
Posted 2014-03-18 05:49:22 and read 48424 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 80):
Are those sensors reusable? Must be very expensive if not - you dropped it and then you have to cover next field, but to collect it from the aircraft is not possiblle...

I don't beleive that they are reusable - ASW planes in the 70s and 80s used to carry loads of them ready to dump into the see

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-18 05:54:54 and read 48059 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 55):
The other pings were captured by more than one sattilite, just triangulate and that will debunk this stupid southern search once and for all..

The antenna locks onto 1 satellite only, and goes on a frequency unique to that satellite, this is unless it is being handed over to the next satellite. The satellite in question is Inmarsat's 3rd Generation L-band Satellite (not the 4th), 1 satellite covers 1/3 of the world, and there are 3... so unless you're at the very edge of the coverage, you wouldn't get handed off, and the next satellite won't hear you. Also bear in mind that that the antenna does not make an omnidirectional transmission, it steers its beam electronically. So, if you don't beam it to a satellite, no one's going to hear your "ping". The reason why the beam is steered is to increase spectrum bandwidth capacity.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 70):
Thank you. How do you listen underwater beacon from the plane though? Range of those beacons detection in water is 3 km appr, and with airborne sensor you still above the actual medium where soundwave goes.

Sonobuoy listens to the sounds in the water, it processes the data, transmits it electronically to the airplane on it's pre-set numbers of communications channel(s). Yes, they're not exactly cheap... but not too expensive either.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 76):
why not to steal a cargo jet then without world attention to the fate of passengers?

Coz you won't get attention for it!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-18 05:55:37 and read 47949 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 91):
It might be useful to have a map of all satellite distance circles, plus the radar track from Thailand and Malaysia.

Yes. Perhaps you'll arrange that for us, then?  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-18 06:03:57 and read 47144 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 95):
Yes. Perhaps you'll arrange that for us, then?

I was being sarcastic because I don't think the information has been released and was just wondering why not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: haddock0815
Posted 2014-03-18 06:07:22 and read 46922 times.

Just one thing I don´t understand (and couldn´t find an answer yet):

why is it even possible on a civilian airliner to shut down every communication device?
shouldn´t it be mandatory for every civilian ailiner to have at least one device that permanently sends gps data (f.e. while engines running or if not on ground) an cannot switched of by someone inside the plane?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: avlnative
Posted 2014-03-18 06:16:23 and read 45946 times.

I suspect that for emergency reasons pretty much every non-essential on-board system has to be able to be shutdown.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 06:17:57 and read 45938 times.

Quoting haddock0815 (Reply 97):

Seems like because no one expected someone wants to vanish in the airplane like that. I compare this situation with software development, when you test the program for holes and when you expose them, you patch it. In this case someone literally hacked security of civilian aviation, so definitely there will be a lot of questions posed like the one you asked.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: cbrboy
Posted 2014-03-18 06:20:23 and read 45560 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 96):
I was being sarcastic because I don't think the information has been released and was just wondering why not.

I'd say there's a combination of factors at work. Other countries not wanting to publicly release information that they have passed to Malaysia, who are leading the search and the public communication. Malaysia having a culture of official secrecy. Other countries not telling the public or Malaysia what they know due to the information revealing military capability or intelligence gathering methods.

Reply 94 above explains why triangulation isn't possible for individual Inmarsat pings from the aircraft. You would think that the six or seven pings after the last voice communication could each be plotted as semi-circles on the map to give two possible routes which could be checked out further for other observations. More than likely this has been done but the public not told.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: mika
Posted 2014-03-18 06:22:31 and read 45345 times.

I'd also suspect that there needs to be a manual override to basically every piece of equipment in the case of an unexpected emergency, malfunction, what have you.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Kelloggs
Posted 2014-03-18 06:24:28 and read 45813 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 95):
Coz you won't get attention for it!

mandala you are exactly right. I have been following your posts and every post on this subject. I have also discussed this subject with my father at length who while he is into his 70s is ex "Special forces" (before I was born) and also an flight engineer (he was the one that spotted the Australian flag on tail of New Zealands first 737). And also with some pilot friends. We are of the opinion that this has been planned for a very long time and we will see MRO again as has been previously mentioned as a "Bomb" . The 777 is not like a car where it can be stolen and "Rebirthed" . You probably can hide one for a while but someone is going to notice it as while it is not found yet the world is not that big. I hope and pray that it is found soon not so we know where it is and what happened but so the families of the souls on board may have closure. I do not believe that the pax and cabin crew are alive as the "Climb" that has been mentioned in the media in my mind is to make sure that they were finished off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-18 06:26:59 and read 45567 times.

I have to chime in about the radar coverage talk regarding the northern arc.

As a pilot I often fly trough the airspace of asia (for example: Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Myanmar, China, Thailand, Malaisia, ... ). A lot of these times my aircraft is not under radar control. At least the controller is behaving in a way, that suggests that he has no radar. The term "under radar contact" is seldom used on these routes. Sometimes even, it is difficult to establish R/T communication with some of the countries mentioned above. VHF, HF or CPDLC is not working reliable. So you end up flying trough countries airspaces not talking to the respective controller at all.

There is also an IFBP (Inflight Broadcasting Procedure) installed for the myanmar airspace. This might be a hint of the qualitiy of their airspace control or the lack of it.

All those countries may have radar. But who is allowed to use this information? Civil ATC? Military ATC? To me it looks like that the civil controllers have no or only a partial radar at their convenience.

The military might have radar for different "applications". But is it switched on all the time? We are not really at the brink of a war. The India-Pakistan border however might be something else, but this is far away of where MH370 was seen last.
So, is the regular scanning (24/7) of all the countries airspace and their borders really necessary? It costs money and is boring and exausting especially during night time. I don't expect people sitting in front of their "boring" screen 356 days a year and still be highly alert.
We learned for example, that the Andaman radar is only used sometimes.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 59):
Only southern route really makes some sense as one could just fly there without having to do too much of fancy stuff to avoid radar contact.

They did fancy stuff to avoid malaysian radar, did't they? They used the cover of the night to fool the radar operators in malaysia. This might have worked with other countries operators (if there are any) as well. No one knew, that there is an aircraft missing that night!

Up north the aircraft had the possibility to use radar shadows from the himalayan mountains. In the mountainous southern part of china is no radar controll for civil aircraft. The airway L888 is controlled with CPDLC. They might have military radar in the himalayans, but it might be severly affected by the mountains.

Quoting na (Reply 65):
One should think so, but the supposed route is zigzagging a bit and probably not really trustworthy
Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 67):
well if you look at it, perhaps didn't pass both VAMPI and GIVAL (red lroute) but rather
one of them or in the middle of them (blue route) ? But this still returned a radar contact
for both waypoints? I don't know how accurate the radars are.

I don't think they actually overflew those waypoints. I understood that they where heading towards them and turning to the next suitable waypoint before reaching it. Like Thunderbolt has it on its map. Thanks for that.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 73):
Has there been any word from Thailand as to whether they tracked the plane at all? According to this blog, they have highly capable radars (http://alert5.com/2014/03/17/three-rtaf-air-defense-radars-that-could-have-seen-mh370/) that cover the presumed route as it headed NW toward the Andaman's from the last know position picked up by the Malaysians. India and Indonesia are reported to have said nothing, although in the case of India their radars on the Andamans are only used on an as needed basis, so they could easily have missed something. But I don't recall anything from the Thais.

It might be embarrassing to admit that they havn't been watching their radar closely?

Quoting k83713 (Reply 76):
Exactly but even if serious, why not to steal a cargo jet then without world attention to the fate of passengers?

"Stealing" a jet on ground is suspicious at least. "Stealing" a passenger aircraft like MH370 is confusing at it's best. It also might be a clue, that the hijackers have been some of passengers and not the pilots as there are no passengers on cargo planes.


I have written the radar stuff solely based on my day to day operation experience in those airspaces and drew a few conclusions. To me, the northern arc is not out of question as suggested by some.

[Edited 2014-03-18 06:41:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-18 06:32:09 and read 45061 times.

A few things that concern me.

1. If any member of the crew were flying the aircraft deep into the flight then it should be assumed that there was an attempt to land. The assumption that they ran out of fuel fails logic. If they planned to ditch the plane somewhere, it is highly unlikely to have occurred as a result of running out of fuel.

2. The longer looking for the plane the longer this remains a news item. Any way you look at this the aircraft has been hidden. Whether in the sea or on land, the location is intentional.

3. The suggestions that the aircraft was flown to 45,000 ft to kill passengers makes no sense. venting the cabin at 36,000 ft would incapacitate the passengers slowly and effectively. No need to fly to 45,000 to do this.

4. I question the ability to get to 45,000 feet within the first two hours of flight. Given the fuel load and weight of an aircraft that also had cargo on board I believe that getting that high was next to impossible.

5. A struggle resulting a climb to 45,000 ft would have surely resulted in the break-up of the flight from over speed or stall on the decent and precluded flying for many hours more. (any climg above 40,000ft would have to be controlled and calculated or the plane would become damaged) It was reported that the decent was at 40,000 fpm. I do not believe anything other than a fighter could keep its control surfaces intact and the pull out would over-G the aircraft so severely that it would break up.

6. Radar from India, Pakistan, Western China. Given how hard it was for Malaysia to track this airplane on radar, why should we assume that other third world countries would have picked this up so easily, especially if it was simply flying a standard commercial route. Any chance it just fell through the cracks as it did flying across Malaysia and Thailand?

7. The crew has the knowledge to know fuel burn, routings, radar, flight characteristics, etc.
Any failure to reach destination could be a result of:
a. an internal struggle to get the plane back.
b. intent not to be found to keep this in the news as long as possible.

8. If you suspect the crew or a member of the crew taking over the flight then looking on land makes the most sense. I base this on the fact that both pilots had the expertise to fly the B777 to wherever they desired.

Thx.
BR

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2014-03-18 06:36:05 and read 44555 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 93):

I don't beleive that they are reusable - ASW planes in the 70s and 80s used to carry loads of them ready to dump into the see

Most of the buoys are not reusable. The ones that just listen and not ping are relatively in-expensive. I am told that there are places in the ocean where these buoys tends to collect if you do want to try to retrieve one.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: michi
Posted 2014-03-18 06:39:05 and read 44494 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 104):
6. Radar from India, Pakistan, Western China. Given how hard it was for Malaysia to track this airplane on radar, why should we assume that other third world countries would have picked this up so easily, especially if it was simply flying a standard commercial route. Any chance it just fell through the cracks as it did flying across Malaysia and Thailand?


Nice! I feel like that this good explanation is making my previous post far to complicated to read.  

edit: spelling

[Edited 2014-03-18 06:40:30]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-18 06:40:05 and read 44273 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 91):
It might be useful to have a map of all satellite distance circles, plus the radar track from Thailand and Malaysia

Not on a single map but sanity checks by rcair1 has INMARSAT IOR coverage map and I believe socalgeo posted radar coverage maps.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: GSPSPOT
Posted 2014-03-18 06:41:26 and read 44328 times.

Quoting Kelloggs (Reply 102):
We are of the opinion that this has been planned for a very long time and we will see MRO again as has been previously mentioned as a "Bomb" . The 777 is not like a car where it can be stolen and "Rebirthed" . You probably can hide one for a while but someone is going to notice it as while it is not found yet the world is not that big. I hope and pray that it is found soon not so we know where it is and what happened but so the families of the souls on board may have closure. I do not believe that the pax and cabin crew are alive as the "Climb" that has been mentioned in the media in my mind is to make sure that they were finished off.

The more time that goes by, the more I am leaning in this direction as well, sadly. It makes my heart ache to think what end the passengers and crew may have met.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-18 06:45:30 and read 43906 times.

Quoting michi (Reply 106):
Nice! I feel like that this good explanation is making my previos post far to complicated to read.  

We have a tendency to over complicate things.
I believe strongly on Ockhams Razor, the simplest solution is generally the correct one.
Given that do you believe the T7 is in the sea, or has been landed?
What makes the most sense? It is not what we want to believe, it is what makes the most sense given what little we know.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 06:49:57 and read 43544 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 104):
2. The longer looking for the plane the longer this remains a news item. Any way you look at this the aircraft has been hidden. Whether in the sea or on land, the location is intentional.

I'll call false on this statement. I cannot imagine any malevolent party wanting to intentionally 'hide' a T7 at sea.   

[Edited 2014-03-18 06:50:30]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: TheRedBAron
Posted 2014-03-18 06:52:37 and read 43155 times.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 78):

I bet spy satellites have scanned all possible airports to hide a T7 by now.

Since some nations are looking for the Aircraft 3500km off the coast of Australia, the Chinesse in mainland China and others in the Andaman sea....goes to prove they don't have a solid evidence where the flight went to....

Sad. back to square one... ( I have even read about aliens involved, hollow earth inhabitants stealing the plane...time to put a tin foil hat on!)

TRB

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 06:54:46 and read 42967 times.

I start to believe that some governments are embarrassed to tell the world that they missed this airplane sneaking through their radars, and not to jeopardize their security, they just denied they saw anything

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-18 06:58:01 and read 42921 times.

In light of the latest batch of information on MH370 (different timeline), does Chris Goodfellows analysis on Google+ hold any water?

Quote:
Get on Google Earth and type in Pulau Langkawi and then look at it in relation to the radar track heading. 2+2=4 That for me is the simple explanation why it turned and headed in that direction.

Smart pilot. Just didn't have the time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 06:58:29 and read 42603 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 112):
I start to believe that some governments are embarrassed to tell the world that they missed this airplane sneaking through their radars, and not to jeopardize their security, they just denied they saw anything

Exactly what I posted in about Part Fifteen as an additional possibility to the list of reasons why Malaysian authorities are looking so incapable. They COULD be 'hiding something', I suppose, if you want to believe that.....but my gut feeling tells me that the more likely (requiring the least leap of faith) explanation for their poor handling of the situation (and any other country this flight flew over) is that their governments are very reluctant to show to the world how little control/awareness they have of their own airspaces. Almost none, I would bet, in the case of Malaysia.

[Edited 2014-03-18 07:00:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 06:58:56 and read 42807 times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26609687


Which theory you think stands out the most????

mine will be sneaking through Burma, flying on "HANDOFF" lines/borders between countries to throw radars off thinking it's the other's responsibility to check

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Kelloggs
Posted 2014-03-18 07:05:50 and read 42067 times.

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 108):
The more time that goes by, the more I am leaning in this direction as well, sadly. It makes my heart ache to think what end the passengers and crew may have met.

From my experience with mine site flights they will have had no idea. They will have merely gone to sleep. I often wondered why on the fly in and fly out days why when we got to cruise almost the whole cabin "Nodded off" self included. So during a BBQ at home I asked a Pilot friend. "Oh health and saftey for us" me "Meaning?" "oh well you lot are either hung over on the way in or drunk and rowdy on the way out , we want to put you to sleep so we can do our jobs and not worry about some unruly idiot". While I do agree I like to read my book. So this is quite possibly how the cabin was subdued and why it went upto 45k. just to be sure. One can only speculate and the more that I do I'm sure that I knew and worked with a guy on that flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: woodreau
Posted 2014-03-18 07:07:33 and read 41830 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 70):
Thank you. How do you listen underwater beacon from the plane though? Range of those beacons detection in water is 3 km appr, and with airborne sensor you still above the actual medium where soundwave goes.

People have expounded on how you can listen to an underwater beacon from an airplane.

The range of the actual beacon and detection depends on a lot of factors really. You can be right on top of the underwater beacon and not hear it at all, and simultaneously a ship more than a 1000 miles away can hear the beacon. It all depends on the local speed of sound, and sound propagation characteristics and the path the sound took to get to your receiver/sonobuoy/towed array.

Since we are listening for an active emitter from the data recorder, in addition to the path the sound took to get to the receiver, it is also dependent on the amount of power output by the underwater beacon, which I assume deteriorates as time goes on.

Most sonars are not optimized to receive the frequency the underwater beacon is emitting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-18 07:08:19 and read 41670 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 110):
I'll call false on this statement. I cannot imagine any malevolent party wanting to intentionally 'hide' a T7 at sea.   

Not what I meant. I was refering to the possibility that crashing it into a hidden location would ensure this remained in the news longer than a simple suicide crash 100 miles from Malaysia. If the operator knowingly hid the aircraft then he could have done so simply maintain longer news coverage.

Quoting capri (Reply 112):
I start to believe that some governments are embarrassed to tell the world that they missed this airplane sneaking through their radars, and not to jeopardize their security, they just denied they saw anything

Agree 100%, including China, Russia and the USA.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 111):
I bet spy satellites have scanned all possible airports to hide a T7 by now.

I agree but if you are working with others, is it nor possible to hide a 200ft plane through use of camoflage, tarp, banches, etc. It was done during WWII to hide bombers on the ground, why not again?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: k83713
Posted 2014-03-18 07:14:35 and read 41068 times.

Quoting woodreau (Reply 117):

Thank you. By the way, doesn't it seem reasonable to implement a system in FDR, which on immersion will release a floating beacon to emit signal on water surface ELT - style?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2014-03-18 07:16:34 and read 40980 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 96):
I was being sarcastic because I don't think the information has been released and was just wondering why not.

Do you seriously expect Malaysia and Thailand to release radar data from their military air defense radars? That strikes me as unlikely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Kelloggs
Posted 2014-03-18 07:23:36 and read 40482 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 118):
It was done during WWII to hide bombers on the ground, why not again?

Correct and all they need is a and pardon my french a "computer nerd" to totally mask it this day and age. Gone are the days of the "inflatable tank"

The more I post on this the more that I'm sure that I worked with one of the pax on board. Not going to mention his name but he was going to Mongolia for work

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: janbrubel
Posted 2014-03-18 07:26:04 and read 40004 times.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 120):
Do you seriously expect Malaysia and Thailand to release radar data from their military air defense radars? That strikes me as unlikely.

Nobody is asking them to give the full technical details on their radar installations, just what they might have seen. It's not like anyone will be surprised they actually do have radar so why keep potential relevant data hidden?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: billreid
Posted 2014-03-18 07:31:52 and read 39798 times.

Quoting Kelloggs (Reply 121):
The more I post on this the more that I'm sure that I worked with one of the pax on board. Not going to mention his name but he was going to Mongolia for work

Are you expecting the authorities to visit you soon?
Have you discussed this with the authorities?
I believe we (posters on A.net) are being monitored by the powers to be for clues.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: brilondon
Posted 2014-03-18 07:33:28 and read 39583 times.

The one thing that has been in my mind since this all started and please tell me what has been said about this is if the plane were hijacked or just taken. What did they do with the 200 plus people on board that have not tried to contact anybody or are they all in on the conspiracy? Sorry, I have not had time to read through every post or thread for that matter so any comments please leave out the hyperbole and the more far fetched ones if you don't mind. Or just give me the post that has such a summary of theories which I am sure has been done to death but as I said I would like just to see an executive summary of theories of what is the most probable situation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-18 07:34:56 and read 39417 times.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 120):
Do you seriously expect Malaysia and Thailand to release radar data from their military air defense radars?

Malaysia already has given it at least to the US and China.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 07:36:50 and read 39309 times.

Quoting Kelloggs (Reply 121):

There was one guy fitting the description. It was reported in local news. Will look up for link. Meanwhile, guys, is it true that the will be amber lighting flash in the plane in case of emergency?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 07:38:11 and read 39187 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 109):
It is not what we want to believe, it is what makes the most sense given what little we know.

We know so little that virtually nothing makes sense.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Kelloggs
Posted 2014-03-18 07:44:41 and read 38753 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 123):
Are you expecting the authorities to visit you soon?
Have you discussed this with the authorities?
I believe we (posters on A.net) are being monitored by the powers to be for clues.

No

Paul was a good guy and talking about a job in monngolia. We on our crew said "Yes go for it" and hoped the same would come to us. At the same time I have gotten out of the trade that I was in and moved on. And I am sure without a doubt that A.net is being monitored as I've had a hard time posting yet some of the mods can say that I've tried to make some posts with terse words given that this is close to my heart

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 07:44:43 and read 38649 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 124):
Or just give me the post that has such a summary of theories which I am sure has been done to death but as I said I would like just to see an executive summary of theories of what is the most probable situation.

See rcair1's excellent summary, reply 77 in part 33.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: flymia
Posted 2014-03-18 07:46:54 and read 38496 times.

A few comments here:

First when does news no longer become "breaking" the plane has been missing for a while now, few new facts have come up. Enough with the breaking news all the time. I am surprised how long this has lasted in the media as a 24/7 coverage. It really might turn out to be one of the greatest mysteries of modern time though.

I see they are focusing a ton on how a "pro" must of done this. They ask pilots these questions about the airplane. Only one person gave a real response. The 777 Sim pilot on CNN said I could teach the reporter how to fly with the FMC and Autopilot if he is a smart guy. The only thing "pro" about what I have seen about this flight so far is the ACARS being disengaged. Anything else could be learned from flying a PMDG 777 or other highly realistic and intensive program from Flight Simulator. It does not take a "pro" to learn how to use the autopilot and FMC. It would take a pro to safely land a 777 in some random grass/dirt or unlighted runway though. But how to operate the majority of the aircraft functions excluding hand flying and correctly responding to emergency situations can be picked up by non-pros.

I can easily be the person everyone would last expect but a veteran airline captain, with such strong family ties just does not make sense. And it seems like nothing is coming from the 27 year old F/O who had his dream job and was about to get married. This really is a big mystery. I just hope this airplane can be found.

Correct me if I am wrong though, but assuming the CVR and FDR were not disconnected dont they only record the final 30mins of any period? And they can be easily disconnected via the circuit breaker.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 07:47:33 and read 38406 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 124):

That will vary according to what happened to the plane. A fact we do not have yet.

Obviously if it crashed, they are most likely dead, regardless of why and where it crashed. Possibly there are survivors. But we've heard no ELT signals. So, not likely. There is an ELT in the plane, and there are ELTs with the slides/rafts.

If it was hijacked by terrorists, it would be easy to kill them all at once via depressurization. This seems most likely if the plane was hijacked.

If it was hijacked for ransom, well, I guess they are alive somewhere and under guard? Not likely.

If it was hijacked for use as a weapon, then the passengers could not be left alive, imo.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: UALWN
Posted 2014-03-18 07:48:22 and read 38289 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 104):
6. Radar from India, Pakistan, Western China. Given how hard it was for Malaysia to track this airplane on radar, why should we assume that other third world countries would have picked this up so easily, especially if it was simply flying a standard commercial route. Any chance it just fell through the cracks as it did flying across Malaysia and Thailand?

It did not fall through the cracks while flying through Malaysia. It was detected, and the Malaysians said so from day 2, although they were not positive it was MH370. Given that India, China and Pakistan are paranoid about each other, I find it exceedingly hard to believe that MH370 went through their airspaces totally undetected. As for India, China and Pakistan being "third-world countries," well they all have nuclear weapons, don't they? And, in any case, I would hardly consider China a third-world country.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: EnviableOne
Posted 2014-03-18 07:50:32 and read 38178 times.

Haven't seen this for a few threads, this wiki set up by a member (sorry, can't remember who) has all the information, including rcair1s sanity checks and the Inmarsat deployment circles, etc

http://mh370.wikia.com/wiki/Mh370_Wiki

its working well to keep most things up to date

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tiong
Posted 2014-03-18 07:51:05 and read 38174 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 114):
Exactly what I posted in about Part Fifteen as an additional possibility to the list of reasons why Malaysian authorities are looking so incapable. They COULD be 'hiding something', I suppose, if you want to believe that.....but my gut feeling tells me that the more likely (requiring the least leap of faith) explanation for their poor handling of the situation (and any other country this flight flew over) is that their governments are very reluctant to show to the world how little control/awareness they have of their own airspaces. Almost none, I would bet, in the case of Malaysia

I am new here and this is my first posting. I have been lurking in this website almost every hour since day 1 of the incident . The information I get here is very informative and I believe I should contribute too to give a different point of view from a Malaysian.

Malaysia in general is a peaceful country. We didnt go to war to gain our independence and when Sarawak and Sabah join Malaysia, no one get killed. When Singapore separated from Malaysia, not a single life was lost.

When the communists attempted to take over the countries, we defended with help of many countries.and when Indonesia invaded our country, we defended ourself , also with help from friendly countries. Since 1970s , we make peace with many countries including China, USA, Russia and via ASEAN, we are also friendly with our neighbours.

As our region is peaceful, our alertness may be lacking compare to countries facing hostile enemies like Korea and Israel.Furthermore. the military radar men may had detected a big blip indicating an unidentified object flying at a speed of commercial air-craft , entering and leaving Malaysia airspace. Thus, they may decide that this flying object did not pose a threat and no alarm was raised.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2014-03-18 07:51:23 and read 38248 times.

Thailand says they received data after the first turn:

Quote:
The Thai data is the second radar evidence that the plane did indeed turn around toward the Strait of Malacca.
It follows information from the Malaysian Air Force that its military radar tracked the plane as it passed over the small island of Pulau Perak in the Strait of Malacca.
"The unknown aircraft's signal was sending out intermittently, on and off, and on and off," the spokesman said. The Thai military lost the unknown aircraft's signal because of the limits of its military radar, he said.
The radar data is an encouraging sign that investigators are on the right track, but they still are not sure where the plane ended up.

What was sending intermittently? The ACARS would make no sense, the transponder? Something strange about this statement.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-18 07:52:21 and read 38067 times.

Quoting Kelloggs (Reply 121):
Correct and all they need is a and pardon my french a "computer nerd" to totally mask it this day and age. Gone are the days of the "inflatable tank"

Don't dismiss the effectiveness of camouflage. It's very much in the realms of possibility to hide a 777 under tarp and camouflage netting to keep it hidden in satellite pictures.
Remember, people will be looking for a 777 shaped objected. Break up that shape and you make it harder to find.

I'm not saying that is what has happened, if it had landed, it would me much easier to just shove it in a hangar. Even is only partially, it will still make it less obvious to all but the closest of scrutiny.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: seansasLCY
Posted 2014-03-18 07:52:37 and read 38218 times.

Not sure if this has been discussed but apparently people have reported seeing a similar plane overfly the Maldives on the morning after. http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio..._source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tiong
Posted 2014-03-18 07:55:52 and read 38485 times.

Plane believed to be Malaysia Airline sighted off Maldives and going south at low altitude.

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54062

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2014-03-18 08:00:01 and read 37490 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 125):
Malaysia already has given it at least to the US and China.

I was referring to a media release or posting it on the internet. I'm aware that the Malaysians provided FAA and NTSB investigators with their primary radar data for analysis.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SimonDanger
Posted 2014-03-18 08:00:58 and read 37331 times.

Still stuck on the regional politics. If this event had occurred in Panama in central america, with a flight headed to New York city, the United States would own everything related to this investigation. What we would not do is allow China to fly a bunch of sophisticated aircraft with advanced electronic listening capabilities along our southern coasts, ostensibly to help find the a/c. Why then is it crickets from China? Communist countries are the most paranoid on the planet, so I just can't understand their silence, except for secrecy. Mind you I have no notion of their motivations - though I lean towards not admitting to a porous airspace - but it just strains credulity that China is just as clueless as the Malaysians (and everybody else for that matter.)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: milan320
Posted 2014-03-18 08:06:00 and read 36943 times.

I'm sure that the possibility of an in-flight fire has been mentioned here, but I must admit, it's not so easy to follow this thread at times.
Anyway, I came across this article, and it's an interesting read. If it's been already posted/discussed, please flag for deletion. Otherwise, any thoughts on what Chris Goodfellow has to say?

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Kelloggs
Posted 2014-03-18 08:07:22 and read 36707 times.

Me thinks that it is not going to be found.. I mean we have as much chance of winning the big one in Lotto and buying the last 727 that came off of the production line. Problem is I know where that is...either that or you have a nice wife

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SamH123
Posted 2014-03-18 08:07:45 and read 36795 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 138):

Plane believed to be Malaysia Airline sighted off Maldives and going south at low altitude.

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54062

A North to South East heading, can anyone see a reason it would be flying in that direction? Doesn't make much sense

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: holzmann
Posted 2014-03-18 08:08:24 and read 36756 times.

Why do I keep on reading and seeing (CNN, etc.) commentary that it would be difficult to hide a 777?

If Lockheed could hide an entire town/factory during WWII...

http://aviationhumor.net/lockheed-burbank-aircraft-plant-camouflage/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-18 08:08:58 and read 36563 times.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 135):
What was sending intermittently? The ACARS would make no sense, the transponder? Something strange about this statement.

Without more information, I'd guess they could be talking about an intermittent primary radar return rather than a signal being "sent" from the aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-18 08:10:18 and read 36553 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 138):
Plane believed to be Malaysia Airline sighted off Maldives and going south at low altitude.

Interesting, that would definitely support the southern route theory.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 140):
Communist countries are the most paranoid on the planet, so I just can't understand their silence, except for secrecy.

Sorry, but your own country definitely took the paranoid gold medal soon after 9/11. Besides, China is hardly a "communist country" anymore with all the foreign corporations running around.

Most likely China just has no more information than anybody else, after all the plane most likely never even came near their airspace.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2014-03-18 08:10:36 and read 36492 times.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 42):
Indeed the current US assets are a single P-3 and P-8, The Kidd has returned to it's normal duties.

That's probably not an accurate assessment. I would be willing to bet there are several USN submarines working the search either on site or in transit. The USN does not generally make statements regarding the whereabouts of it's submarines.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tiong
Posted 2014-03-18 08:14:45 and read 36138 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 96):

I am also wondering why the big- boys seem quite on this. Unlike Malaysia, they have the technology clout and their silence so far were totally not anticipated..

There are a lot of conspiracies theory in the Internet and one of them may be true.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-18 08:14:47 and read 36178 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 146):
Interesting, that would definitely support the southern route theory.

Not really. Hard to imagine that it could have reached any of those 2 "corridors", especially at low altitude... But maybe the satellite is wrong and the human eye is right?  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 08:23:33 and read 35530 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 138):

This news is appears to be more credible than all those we are hearing the last 10 days.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-18 08:26:06 and read 34827 times.

Quoting cbrboy (Reply 100):
Other countries not telling the public or Malaysia what they know due to the information revealing military capability or intelligence gathering methods.

add other countries passing confidential infos to Malaysia on the condition of not disclosing the source...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-18 08:28:28 and read 35094 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 138):
Plane believed to be Malaysia Airline sighted off Maldives and going south at low altitude.

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54062

Worth a look but the question is why are they reporting this after such a long time frame? Its so hard to know what is credible

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 08:30:03 and read 35428 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 138):
Plane believed to be Malaysia Airline sighted off Maldives and going south at low altitude.

According to the article, the plane was spotted at 6:15 am in the Maledives. That would be 9:15 am Malaysian time. It is inconsistent with the satellite pings and MH 370 would have exhausted its fuel by that time. The plane they saw cannot possibly be MH 370, unless it was refuelled somewhere and satellite ping data is incorrect.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: sejtam
Posted 2014-03-18 08:32:47 and read 34788 times.

Via Dhaal in the direction of Addu. Diego Garcia looks possible again...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 08:33:46 and read 34883 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 153):

According to the article, the plane was spotted at 6:15 am in the Maledives. That would be 9:15 am Malaysian time. It is inconsistent with the satellite pings and MH 370 would have exhausted its fuel by that time. The plane they saw cannot possibly be MH 370, unless it was refuelled somewhere and satellite ping data is incorrect.

Well, the plane reportedly had 30 minutes fuel left at the 8:11 mark, so the time is not far enough off to dismiss, imo.

Mind you, I still don't think it was MH370 they saw.

I do wonder what plane they did see, though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 08:34:17 and read 34661 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 148):
and their silence so far were totally not anticipated..

As I implied in an earlier post if the US, Israel, Australia, and maybe India believe this incident represents an immediate and serious security concern the normal procedure would be to keep quiet. In particular, they may be cutting the Malaysians out as much as possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SamH123
Posted 2014-03-18 08:37:03 and read 34794 times.

Flying With Fish ‏@flyingwithfish 27s
Thailand now says it may have spotted #MH370 minutes after it went dark, but didn’t say anything because no one asked for that specific info

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-18 08:39:22 and read 34130 times.

Ok what is new from last night until today as far as developments go?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-18 08:43:24 and read 33621 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 158):
Ok what is new from last night until today as far as developments go?

See the first post or rcair1's latest "sanity check".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-18 08:45:51 and read 33622 times.

Quoting SamH123 (Reply 157):

WTF...if this is true then that's shame of Thai officials. Again how reliable is this source?

Quoting milan320 (Reply 141):

I went through that article however IF (big IF) information about left turn already been keyed in in FMS is true then that contradicts this guy's theory. This means either of the pilot or someone knew flight will turn left from where it signed off Malaysian ATC and not because of fire they took left turn.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 08:46:51 and read 33440 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 158):
Ok what is new from last night until today as far as developments go?

This one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...asia/malaysia-airlines-flight.html

Quote:
Flight 370’s Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official. This shows that the reprogramming happened before the Acars stopped working. The Acars ceased to function about the same time that oral radio contact was lost and the airplane’s transponder also stopped, fueling suspicions that foul play was involved in the plane’s disappearance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-18 08:47:12 and read 33380 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 114):
but my gut feeling tells me that the more likely (requiring the least leap of faith) explanation for their poor handling of the situation (and any other country this flight flew over) is that their governments are very reluctant to show to the world how little control/awareness they have of their own airspaces. Almost none, I would bet, in the case of Malaysia.

I don't understand, I really don't understand. On DAY 2 they said the AF belevies that the aircraft may have made a turn and thus they are expanding the search area to the Andaman Sea. So on DAY 2 they were record saying that a 777 could have slipped under their on nose. How on earth is this reluctant?!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: nakb
Posted 2014-03-18 08:47:50 and read 33215 times.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 144):
Why do I keep on reading and seeing (CNN, etc.) commentary that it would be difficult to hide a 777?

If Lockheed could hide an entire town/factory during WWII...

The only point in trying to hide it is if they intend to use it again - otherwise it would simply be torched. That means that if it has been landed, and hidden, it needs to be somewhere where it can be re-fueled and safely take off again. That means a proper runway, suitable for large transports, and access to fuel. That greatly limits the potential locations (OK there are a few thousand, but most of these are very public - even in deepest China people have access to social media).

It would not take too long for the possible locations to be scanned using US spy satellites - they probably already have been.

Traditional camouflage would not be sufficient to avoid detection. Heat signatures can be picked up and there are other satellite-based sensing methods that we don't officially know about.

I therefore find it almost impossible to believe that a large transport can be hidden intact for over a week without detection, unless it is with the active involvement of the state where it has landed. I cannot think of any reason why a state would seek to steal a 777 (setting aside the more bizarre conspiracy theories).

If it were intended to be used for terrorism purposes then it would have been taken immediately prior to the intended event (to maintain the element of surprise and minimise risk of detection). I am therefore forced to conclude that either it was a terrorist act but, for some reason, the act was aborted, or it was a more traditional hijack that went wrong. Either way I cannot believe the plane is still intact. It is probably either in the ocean or in small pieces in some very remote part of the Northern arc. I can totally understand why some people need to cling on to hope, and others theorise more complicated scenarios, but sadly I cannot subscribe to that myself.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: MarcoT
Posted 2014-03-18 08:52:39 and read 32558 times.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 120):
Do you seriously expect Malaysia and Thailand to release radar data from their military air defense radars? That strikes me as unlikely.


Malaysia has stated, several days ago, that they've handed their raw military radar tapes to the US and China, and last they've checked neither the US nor China denied this assertion...

[edit]:
I saw that you've already acknowledged that while I was composing the message, I will keep this nonethless (just edited out the polemic bold WHAT at the start) as a useful reminder of this facts, since I think that I've seen at least another poster joining in musing about why they're hiding it...

[Edited 2014-03-18 09:01:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: ANITIX87
Posted 2014-03-18 08:52:49 and read 32678 times.

In interesting article. Follows the Occam's Razor theory, but may not be relevant with the newest information we have (though I tend to assume nothing we hear is true anymore, haha)

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

TIS

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 08:53:51 and read 32507 times.

Quoting nakb (Reply 163):
I am therefore forced to conclude that either it was a terrorist act but, for some reason, the act was aborted, or it was a more traditional hijack that went wrong.

In either case why would the thwarted terrorists/hijackers continue controlled flight for 6+ more hours?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 08:54:55 and read 32299 times.

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 162):
So on DAY 2 they were record saying that a 777 could have slipped under their on nose. How on earth is this reluctant?!

If that had been what they said, then no - they wouldn't have been being reluctant in admitting that they are unable to provide the simplest of radar tracking across their own airspace. But - unfortunately, that isn't what they said. They said very little in the first few days (the most critical part of the investigation), apart from that they THOUGHT it had maybe turned west and that their military radar MAY HAVE seen something that COULD HAVE been MH370.

Not exactly an admission of a less-than-stellar airspace monitoring job, is it?

[Edited 2014-03-18 08:57:38]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SimonDanger
Posted 2014-03-18 08:55:43 and read 32386 times.

User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 945 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted Tue Mar 18 2014 05:10:18 your local time (21 minutes 2 secs ago) and read 2240 times:

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 140):
Communist countries are the most paranoid on the planet, so I just can't understand their silence, except for secrecy.

..."Sorry, but your own country definitely took the paranoid gold medal soon after 9/11. Besides, China is hardly a "communist country" anymore with all the foreign corporations running around." ...

This comment seems unnecessarily hostile. As an American I am comfortable with the repeated swipes at our country, especially from small countries with inferiority complexes, but that has nothing to do with China, and their silence, and I don't think the majority of the world - especially its neighbors - agree that China has cast off its communist mantle.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 08:58:43 and read 32207 times.

If the Maldives sighting is true, then I promise to stop asking questions about the margin of error of satellite based estimates:

- first it was just a thin red line (drawn by hand I think) on the 40deg elevation contour for 3-F1
- this morning, the hard to hear media conference (I wish journalists would submit questions in writing and ask for written answers in English!) provided an indirect margin of error +/- 200 nm which means 40deg +/- 3.3 deg approximately
- now the Maldives would require another adjustment, namely 40 deg +/- 35???

A lot of people fly to the Maldives for vacations, mostly from the northern hemisphere. The sighting is over 100nm south of Male airport. Except possibly coming from Singapore but I don't think there are any overnight flights, you would have to be really lost to troll down there or be looking for a survivable place to ditch.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: surfpunk
Posted 2014-03-18 09:00:51 and read 31780 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 109):
We have a tendency to over complicate things.
I believe strongly on Ockhams Razor, the simplest solution is generally the correct one.
Given that do you believe the T7 is in the sea, or has been landed?
What makes the most sense? It is not what we want to believe, it is what makes the most sense given what little we know.

I don't know if this has been posted/summarized, as I haven't followed these threads in a couple days, and there's just too much to go back through. I don't see anything in this one, and this article has today's date on it. This is a pretty simple explanation of what could have happened on board MH370, and it makes a reasonable amount of sense.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

Thoughts (and I apologize if this is a repost)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 09:01:35 and read 31724 times.

We keep analyzing things like what they keep telling us is true, i am discrediting them about the fuel amount, maybe was fueld twice and had 15hrs range, and this Maldives sighting from lots of people not 1 unless Maldives felt inferiority that no one asked for anything and wanted to join in the limelight

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2014-03-18 09:03:11 and read 31557 times.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 165):
In interesting article. Follows the Occam's Razor theory, but may not be relevant with the newest information we have (though I tend to assume nothing we hear is true anymore, haha)

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

It is interesting to speculate it was an electrical fire and they "pulled the busses" though calling Swissair 111 a DC-10 that ditched seems to show a lack of attention to detail...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SamH123
Posted 2014-03-18 09:03:25 and read 31518 times.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 165):

In interesting article. Follows the Occam's Razor theory, but may not be relevant with the newest information we have (though I tend to assume nothing we hear is true anymore, haha)

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

It was posted above but it is interesting

Although I would have thought assuming the plane could fly for 6+ hours after the pilots were knocked unconscious is a big assumption and breaks the razor. All the other recorded fires on planes had totally different timelines I think?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tiong
Posted 2014-03-18 09:04:08 and read 31659 times.

Quoting sejtam (Reply 154):
User currently offlinesejtam From Singapore, joined Sep 2011, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted Tue Mar 18 2014 23:32:47 your local time (11 minutes 31 secs ago) and read 1412 times:

Via Dhaal in the direction of Addu. Diego Garcia looks possible again.

Why Diego Garcia?? Putting the dots again.

1.According to the local newspaper , the flight simulator found to contain 5 landing sites in India, Sri lanka , Maldives and Diego Garcia http://english.astroawani.com/news/s...in-zaharies-flight-simulator-32034

2. The pilot's idol is loved by some hidden hands in the most powerful nation on earth..

Conspiracy theory again and I do hope this is not true at all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 09:04:45 and read 31409 times.

Quoting surfpunk (Reply 170):

Why would we ignore the rest of the turns, though?

You have to ignore those to get to a simple fire theory.

How was the plane turning at those waypoints?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 09:08:11 and read 31071 times.

Quoting surfpunk (Reply 170):
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/Thoughts (and I apologize if this is a repost)?

The plane plane flying through pre-programmed waypoints is not consistent with an electrcal fire and attempt to deviate to a near alternate airport. If the new New York Times article about a new waypoint programmed before ACARS went off is accurate, it makes the electical fire even less consistent.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: nakb
Posted 2014-03-18 09:12:12 and read 30875 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 166):
In either case why would the thwarted terrorists/hijackers continue controlled flight for 6+ more hours?

Possibly because whatever may have thwarted the intended act of terrorism incapacitated the crew, so it continued on auto-pilot until the fuel ran out? Or (but much less likely) the attempts by those on board to thwart the act were only successful after several hours.

The track calculated from the hourly handshake "pings" will probably have indicated whether it followed a straight path for most of those 6+ hours (either North or South) - but only the arc from the final "ping" has been made public so we can only speculate as to whether it was under active control for the whole period.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 09:18:37 and read 30287 times.

Quoting surfpunk (Reply 170):
I don't know if this has been posted/summarized, as I haven't followed these threads in a couple days, and there's just too much to go back through. I don't see anything in this one, and this article has today's date on it. This is a pretty simple explanation of what could have happened on board MH370, and it makes a reasonable amount of sense.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

Thoughts (and I apologize if this is a repost)?

I just don't understand this Goodfellow guy's take on the event. He is taking the Occam's Razor method of deduction and using it as a machete. It seems beyond elementary to me that he could look at what happened with MH370, see the runway on Palau Langkawi, and say to himself (and the internet world) "By George, there's a runway - I've solved it!".

The ONLY facts he is basing his "electrical fire" theory upon are the loss of communication, the plane's last radar signature headed west towards the Malacca Straits, and the fact that there's a runway on Palau Langkawi. Several things come to my mind in disputing his claims that this was an electrical fire:

1. We know, by now, that the erroneous change in course from north-easterly to westerly in the plane's heading was done in a premeditated fashion using the FMS. That sort of keystroke programming is HIGHLY unlikely in the event of a fire/onboard emergency.

2. History both modern and older is replete with aircraft that have suffered fire damage/fire emergencies. To my knowledge, none of them have resulted in complete loss of communications. This would be unlikely - at least in the initial stages of the discovery of the fire.

3. With his vision of the pilots/crew battling with an electrical fire, pulling and replacing buses, and fighting to control the plane - why would autopilot continue? I am unsure about a Boeing's infrastructure W/R/T autopilot disengagement, but surely the pulling of buses, fire in EE etc. all would be seen as qualify events for the disengagement of autopilot by the plane's onboard computer, right?

4. IF autopilot was still in control while the plane overflew Palau Langkawi, why would it just continue indefinitely to fly the plane? In the event of a fire/need for an emergency landing somewhere in Malaysia, there would be NO reason for the FMS/autopilot to be programmed to fly the plane out into the vasts of the Indian Ocean.....therefore, even IF the plane had been 'programmed' to fly to near Palau Langkawi because of an emergency, once it reached its designated coordinates it would - surely - disengage and look for pilot input?

I think people are getting very obsessed with the notion of what 'autopilot' is. It doesn't just mean "fly forever".

[Edited 2014-03-18 09:22:00]

[Edited 2014-03-18 09:23:07]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-18 09:19:53 and read 30216 times.

Is the current Australian search zone located such that if MH370 were found there, that the investigation would be headed up by the ATSB? With the apparent incompetence and intransigence of the Malaysian investigation, this would be a way to shift control.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 09:20:52 and read 30039 times.

How about this for the beginning of the scenario?

The hijacker, presumably one of the pilots, begins by programming the first turn into the plane while the other pilot is not looking. This data is sent with the last ACARS message.

When the plane begins this turn, a fight breaks out in the cockpit over control of the plane, resulting in the high altitude excursion.

The hijacker wins the fight...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-18 09:24:19 and read 29760 times.

Again with Diego Garcia, you will not land there without expressed permission from military ATC. The base is littered with strategic bombers, including the $3.5 billion B-2 bomber. It is a U.S. Military pit stop. Highly unlikely 370 landed there unnoticed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: jpetekyxmd80
Posted 2014-03-18 09:24:37 and read 29523 times.

How far back would the CVR go?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tiong
Posted 2014-03-18 09:25:37 and read 29665 times.

Quoting k83713 (Reply 23):
Quoting jelliesR (Reply 17):

Yeah, and that would explain his attention to the trial, but that would not explain his suicide with 238 other people on board after 7 hours of flying in secret from the rest of the world

I dont believe it was a suicide attempt. Putting the dots, I think a protest attempt may be, with the plane , crew and passengers remain intact and the plane landed safely at some unknown location. Or maybe the protest attempt going wawry and the airplane landed in the ocean but yet to be found.

I am wondering if there is a remote possibility of calls made from the plane using satellite phones (not necessary using services offered from MAS) .

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-18 09:28:41 and read 29264 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 178):
I just don't understand this Goodfellow guy's take on the event. He is taking the Occam's Razor method of deduction and using it as a machete. It seems beyond elementary to me that he could look at what happened with MH370, see the runway on Palau Langkawi, and say to himself (and the internet world) "By George, there's a runway - I've solved it!".

I can't take him seriously at all. His comparable inflight fires paragraph contains numerous factual errors, at least two of which are important to his point:

- The AC DC9 flight landed at CVG, not Columbus.
-23 people, not "thirty-odd," died.
- They did not "bypass several airports" because they didn't know them, as the writer insinuates; they bypassed them because they assumed the smoke alarm was going off due to a smoldering fire in a lavatory trash bin, which happened a lot at the time.
-the Swissair crash was an MD-11, not a DC-10.
- There's nothing to indicate that the Swissair 111 pilots ever shut off the radios. They were transmitting to ATC until 10 seconds before the CVR and FDR stopped recording.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-18 09:31:17 and read 29024 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 181):
Highly unlikely 370 landed there unnoticed.

ok, maybe not the right time and slightly off-topic, but when i read that... all i could think of was Kramer in 'Airplane!' saying... "no...that's just what they'll be expecting us to do...." had to chuckle

[Edited 2014-03-18 09:31:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 09:33:25 and read 29323 times.


Sanity Check - 3/18/2014 15:00Z
There is (will be) a link to this post in my profile under "homepage"

3/18/2014 15:00Z update since last Sanity Check.
The facts have not changed much. The a/c has not been found.
I've tried to be as factually accurate as I can - but I'm not an expert in each system - so if there factual errors please advise.
Updated section Way-points and Navigation including discussion of ACARS and FMS(Flight Management System).
Update section on discussion of oxygen and pressurization.
Added short section on inducing hypoxia in passengers.
Added a/c information.


First a synopsis
The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
The last ACARS transmission was 01:07 local.
The last comms were "All right, good night" transmitted to Malaysia ant hand-off to Vietnam control. Vietnam was not contacted. It has been reported it was the First Officer's voice.
NOTE: Saying "good night" or "so long" or "see you" is very common for hand-offs.
The transponder stopped transmitting at 1:21 - loss of secondary radar.
There are reports of a climb to 45K, uneven descent and some changes in altitude. Since this is based on primary radar - altitude data is somewhat uncertain. The last has been reported as 29,500ft but that seems in dispute.
There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Strait and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does NOT identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370
See further information on oxygen and hypoxia below
SATCOM system pings continued for 7+ (last ping at 08:11 local) hrs after LOS (loss of signal)
SATCOM pings do not locate the aircraft but based on correlation to signal strength there are two loci that indication aircraft distance from the Satellite.
These are not paths and I have changed my language to reflect that. They represent a distance from the satellite.
Loci one is north over Andaman Sea, Bay of Bengal as far as Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and is consistent with primary radar.
Loci two is south over the India Ocean west of Australia. We've had no reports of radar signals in that area.
The last SATCOM ping was at 8:11 am Malaysian time. At that time it would be dark on the north radius and light over the south radius.
Best data I have is SATCOM pings are hourly - so the 8:11 ping could be up to 1 hour before the aircraft stopped 'pinging'.
We have no ELT signal detected.
While authorities (Malaysian) have not confirmed this is a hijacking or purposeful event - it is believed that is highly likely by most, however, motivation is unknown.
Debris reported by Greek oil tanker has already been reported as not relevant.
Recent reports attributed to the FBI that the plane 'could have landed' and sent a satellite signal from the ground appear to be just confirming what we already knew - that the SATCOM pings could come from an a/c in flight, or powered up on the ground..
There have been no reports that a Rolls Royce EH report was sent upon landing.
UPDATE: There have been recent reports that the course changes were programed, not flown See ACARS and FMS below.

Time-line (from CNN)
1.07 am - Last ACARS transmission.
1.19 am - Last verbal communication "All right, good night" from the plane; believed to be the co-pilot
1.21 am - Transponder stopped transmitting (turned off or failed)
1.30 am - Civilian (primary) radar lost contact
1.37 am - Expected ACARS transmission; not received
2.15 am - Last military primary radar contact
8.11 am - Last (hourly) satellite handshake

ACARS
ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, including navigation, operations, maintenance, etc to ATC and maintenance facilities.
ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight.
ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.
ACARS communicates via VHF, HF or SATCOM. The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.
ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM, HF or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
Reports that ACARS was disabled before the LOS event were incorrect. The last ACARS transmission was at 1:07. The next was expected at 1:37 and was not received. This means ACARS communication was disabled between those times. This could be action by the flight-deck crew or system failure.
UPDATE: ACARS can be used to send navigation information from ATC to the aircraft and vise versa.
This later fact is causing confusion that I've been unable to rectify as yet. See ACARS and FMS Communications below.

ACARS data from MH370
The ACARS system sent 2 engine health reports to Rolls Royce, both prior to the LOS event.
The Rolls Royce page indicates that a 'snapshot' of engine data would be sent at: takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. We know 2 ACARS Engine Health reports were received, so that would be consistent with the 1st two.
The last engine health report was received at 1:07am. The next was expected at 1:37 am and was not received. This indicates that the transmission of ACARS data was disabled between 1:07 and 1:37, but not when during that period.
The Engine Health report received prior to LOS had 'interesting' altitude data/fluctuations including 40K drop in a minute. That data is suspect.
Since no "landing" report was received, then either the ACARS communication was disabled, or the a/c did not land.
We have not heard if ACARS would send a report upon fuel starvation flame-out.

Way-point Tracks
The use of way-points to the navigate are conjecture. They happen to line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just coincidentally along the path.
A 777 can be programed to follow a series of way-point automatically - this is normal operating procedure and a 777 pilot would need no extra practice/training to do it. (Relevant to pilot flight simulator ownership)

ACARS and FMS (Flight Management System) Communications relevant to the WAY-POINTS
Recent reports in the NYT imply that we 'know' that the turns made by MH370 were the result of programed heading (way-point) changes in the FMS, not hand flying.
I believe this is another case of speculation being taken as fact but I may be wrong. Basis for that belief follows - rcair1.
The NYT reports use inconsistent language. Specifically the article says:
- "was most likely programmed by someone in the plane’s cockpit" (emphasis added)
Followed by:
- "Instead of manually operating the plane’s controls, whoever altered Flight 370’s path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee-high pedestal between the captain and the first officer, according to officials." This is stated as a fact
To make it worse - the article also says:
-"It is not clear whether the plane’s path was reprogrammed before or after it took off."
But then it says.
-"Flight 370’s Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official."
Attempted analysis (by rcair1):
The article is full of inconsistencies - which is red flag for speculation to me.
I believe the sentence "It is not clear whether..." is key. If they do not know if the re-programing was done before or after takeoff,Then this is speculation, not fact.
Why?: If we had data proving the FMS was reprogrammed - that data would have to come from the aircraft via some communication channel.
-If that channel was gate communication - it happened before takeoff
-If that channel was ACARS (VHF or SATCOM) - it happened after takeoff
The fact that we do not know - means we did not receive the communication.
Hence: It is speculation. BTW - I think it is likely to have happened, but that does not mean I know it.
If we can get clarification on this - I will update it.
Additional points:
Question for experts in 777 FMS Navigation
While I believe that the FMS (LNAV) can manage way-point transitions, I don't know if it manages altitude with way-points or not.
We saw a/c change altitude - how would this be programmed? Could changes be 'between' way-points?
The LNAV is part of the autopilot. If the a/c climbed to 45K and stalled, then recovered at 23K, I believe the autopilot would disengage at the stall.

SATCOM
SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.
SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.
The SATCOM system on MH370 was connecting to Inmarsat 3 satellites. In the area covered, the only satellite with coverage is IOR.
Since only 1 satellite has coverage, no triangulation is possible. All that can be determined is distance from the satellite. This has been used to define 2 potential loci were the a/c could have been.
North Corridor
.
South Corridor
We do not know if these corridors are defined by the last SATCOM ping, or multiple pings.
We cannot distinguish if the a/c was flying or parked on the ground (powered up) when these pings were sent.
We have not been told how the distance from IOR was estimated - it could be signal strength or time of flight (signal propagation time).Opinion: as an EE I think signal strength is unlikely - it would depend on things such as a/c orientation. Time of flight - which is how GPS works - seems more likely - however others have pointed out this requires precise timing.
NOTE: While these may appear as paths - they are not. They are simply a set of potential locations based upon ping data. The aircraft could have been in a constant standard turn circle somewhere along one of the loci (red lines) and the satellite could not tell. We only know it was somewhere along those lines.

SATCOM Pings
The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites (hourly). These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here."
SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel. They are akin to registration pings on a cell system.
The last pings were detected at 8:11am Malaysia time. This does not mean the aircraft went down or landed at this time, only that the last ping was 8:11. Source I've seen indicate the pings are hourly - but that is not confirmed.
SATCOM pings provide no aircraft heading, speed or altitude information, however, distance from the Satellite can be estimated, and ONLY distance.
Based on analysis of the SATCOM pings by Inmarsat, two possible corridors have been predicted based upon a radius from the satellite picking up the pings.
SATCOM pings would be sent as long as the system (aircraft) was power up and withing coverage area. So, on the ground, if powered up (thanks to mandala499).
People have asked if SATCOM pings could come from a crashed plane if the right parts survived.
Very unlikely. The system is not self contained, the equipment, power and antennas are separate.
Recent news about the fact that the plane could have landed really appears to be just a restatement of known data.
Specifically - the SATCOM pings could have been sent from an aircraft powered, but landed - or from an aircraft in flight.
Clarification: The key is the system is powered, whether by engines, apu or shore line (on the ground).
Again: These pings to not contain ANY data about the aircraft position, speed, altitude, etc.
The 'location' data inferred from the SATCOM pings is based analysis of those signals which gives an approximate distance from the satellite to the a/c.
Since the satellite is in geosynchronous orbit (~22,000 miles), the difference in distance between a flying aircraft and one on the ground is probably not measurable.

Hypoxia and Pressurization
There has been lots of speculation about loss of pressurization in the aircraft and what that would do to passengers and crew.
IMPORTANT NOTE: all of this applies to cabin pressure - not the pressure outside.Just climbing to 45K would not exposed the passengers to that altitude - the aircraft would have to be depressurized.
In the case of loss of cabin pressure - O2 mask would deploy automatically.
The pilots cannot disable this above 13,500 feet - they can release the masks.
Passengers masks would last 12-20 minutes. Portable crew (FA) bottles ~30minutes. Cockpit crew longer.
Time of useful consciousness (not to loss of consciousness) will range from 1-3 minutes at 30K to 9-15 seconds at 43K. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)
above 40,000 ft cabin altitude - positive pressure oxygen is required - passenger masks do not do this and would not be effective.
Because of this the a/c must be certified able to descend and pilots demonstrate an emergency descent to ~10,000 ft in 2 minutes.
The actual regulation is that passengers cannot be exposed to a cabin altitude of more than 25K for more than 2 minutes, or more than 40K for any time. (A380 got an exception to this rule.)

Cabin pressurization by Pilots (this is not as solid as I would like in terms of facts).
NOTE: Above 40K passenger masks are ineffective - positive pressure O2 is required.
Question: Can the pilots 'depressurize' the plane?
The FAA regulations state the a/c "must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to cabin pressure altitudes in excess of 15,000 feet (4,600 m) after any probable failure condition in the pressurization system"
So for normal 'failures' - no, the cabin will remain below 15K.
However, per member mandala499 the pilots could: 1) Open outflow valves, 2) turn off bleed air. The cabin would then depressurize to current altitude.
I have no data on how quickly this would happen - but I think it would take minutes at least.
Let's investigate the sequence required and how that is related to the reported "climb to 45K":
1) Pilots (or whomever is in control) switches to manual pressurization, turns off bleed, opens outflow valves.
2) Cabin altitude climbs above 13,500 and passenger masks deploy - there is no way to prevent that. At that point passengers and cabin crew know.
3) Presuming the pilots do not descent - passengers O2 will last 12-20 minutes. After that, depending on the cabin altitude they will loose effective consciousness (not loose consciousness, but effective consciousness).
4) Cabin crew O2 will run out.
5) During this time, the flight crew O2 will operate and I believe it lasts longer.
6) At some point - depending on cabin altitude - those not on O2 will die (no other way to say it).
The question becomes - how long would this sequence take?
Below 40K cabin altitude - and once the cabin is depressurized- minimum 12-30 minutes for all passengers and cabin crew to become disabled. (I believe the flight deck crew has positive pressure O2 but I'm not sure.)
Above 40K cabin altitude - I do not know - w/o positive pressure oxygen people will loose effective consciousness in seconds.
With O2, but not positive pressure - will this be extended?
If you descend below 40K with non positive pressure O2 masks still operating - will people recover?
Summary:
It appears flight crew (or knowledgeable hijackers) could depressurize the cabin and disable all.
O2 masks would deploy so passengers and cabin crew would know.
This would not be an instantaneous procedure - the biggest factor is how long would it take to depressurize the a/c.

CRV/FDR Data
The CVR (cockpit voice recorder) and FDR (flight data recorder) do not transmit data in flight.
They do emit sonic pings if immersed. These will last a minimum of 30 days. We can expect sonar is being used to listen for them.
The pinger operates at 37.5KHz 106.5dp re 1μPa. (thanks k83713)
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Normal Conditions: 1-2km
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Good Conditions: 4-5km
Localising a pinger from the surface in shallow water is relatively easy, as described above. In deep water, the detection equipment should be installed on a self-propelled underwater vehicle, presupposing that the position is already known to within the maximum 2-3km detection range.
More Info:http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html
The CVR reportedly is a 120 minute CVR so it would contain only the last 120 minutes of flight (presuming it did not fail or was turned off prior to that).
I don't have data form the recording time of the FDR, but it is typically much longer.

ELT
The ELT, or emergency locater transmitter is mounted in the rear of the aircraft - difficult to access in flight.
The ELT is battery powered - independent built in power source. It is this source that is suspect in causing the 787 fire at Heathrow.
The ELT will be trigged by G forces in a crash. It will not operate under water.
The ELT can be triggered from the cockpit - it is a hardwired switch not dependent on computer systems.
The ELT transmits on the guard frequency (VHF) and on 406MHz to satellites. If it had been triggered (above water), satellites would have heard it and been able to locate the a/c.

Primary versus Secondary Radar (brief tutorial)
Primary radar is based on the original military usage. It sends out a strong (KW to MW) signal and looks for a reflection from something.
Primary radar provides distance and location. Comparing returns speed can be determined. Strength of return can indicate size.
Stealth a/c and ships are designed to absorb or miss-direct the reflection so primary radar cannot see them.
Primary radar does not depend on the transponder, so turning off a transponder will not make an a/c disappear from primary.
Primary radar is less prevalent than secondary - and more typically military tho ATC's do use it.
Secondary Radar is really not Radar in the defined sense. It is directional communication.
In secondary radar a directional signal is sent out (much less powerful than primary). Any a/c with a transponder that receives it will respond (the transponder responds) with information about the aircraft.
Combined with the direction of the outgoing beam, the time of flight information and returned information, the a/c location and identity (and other info depending on the mode) is returned.
Secondary radar is the primary method used by ATC.
If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar will not see the a/c.
In the case of MH370
The transponder was turned off - so the a/c disappeared from secondary (ATC) radar.
A target was tracked west, then northwest using primary radar. That target was correlated with SATCOM pings help determine it was MH370.

Airworthiness Directive
The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna

Cargo and Lithium Battery Fires.
There are reports that the cargo in MH370 did not receive normal X-ray screening.
There are also statements that the shipment held nothing hazardous or remarkable.
There are reports of a shipment of lithium batteries on the a/c and that perhaps they caused a fire.
The hold of a passenger a/c like the 777 is protected with Halon and detectors - so a fire in the hold would be detected.
The EE bay is not so protected.
Therefore some think a fire could have occurred and been suppressed. This does not directly explain loss of comms.
Opinion: as a firefighter, I doubt this. The fire would destroy the a/c. However, those on the forum with more knowledge of these systems disagree

Aircraft Type and Fuel State
The aircraft was a Boeing 777-200ER. MTOW 656,000 lbs, 301 3 class passengers (standard Boeing Config - does not reflect MH specific config.)
The aircraft could land in 6000 ft, or much less at high risk. As little as 3000ft has been stated, but it could not take off from there.
The aircraft would need a hard surface to land - this is heavier that has been done on steel matts.
It is reported the aircraft 45 to 60 minutes extra fuel. This would amount to about 7-7.5 hrs of fuel. This is a normal amount for this route.
The aircraft should have been able to fly about 30 minutes after the last SATCOM ping at 8:11.
The figure at this link show max range for the 777-200ER. NOTE: MH370 was not fueled for this range. http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com.../777_range_singapore.pdf


Search Areas (including those that have be halted)
Along the planed route. I believe searching in this area is ending or decreasing based on new data indicating the a/c is not there
West over the Malacca strait
North west of Malacca strait
Along the two loci predicted by the SATCOM pings which continue north to Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and south to the India Ocean.
These are huge search areas - I do not have a good handle on what assets are deployed where
It appears the north loci is considered more likely because of primary radar signals that roughly correlate.
I would expect review of primary radar west of Australia is in process if not done.

Mobile phones
We continue to have lots of discussion on "mobile phones" - can the connect in flight, etc.
We don't have any reports or evidence of that any passenger or crew mobile phone has registered with any network.
Until we have that data or reports - I believe the mobile phone discussions are not getting us anywhere.
UPDATE: This subject continues to be discussed. But, we have had no reports of cell phones registering with towers - we are in a loop here.

Theories and Conspiracy Theories
Currently, it seems most believe there is some positive action here - hijacker or crew based.
Opinion: Mostly, I believe this is because a mechanical failure that selectively terminates communication, incapacitates the crew/passengers, but then allows the a/c to fly on uncontrolled for 7 hours seems unlikely.
There are lots of theories out there - some clearly "conspiracy based" some just factual. Often it is hard to distinguish.
Here are a few.
A fire broke out that incapacitated passengers and crew - but allowed to aircraft to fly on it's own till starvation.
Corollary to this - the fire would have to disable comms, or cause the crew to disable comms in an attempt to fight it.
Corollary to this - the fire drove the pilots out of the cockpit.
Corollary to this - the fire disabled comms, nav and systems, and the crew - still alive - got lost trying to return.
The a/c was hijacked and flown to a remote strip to be used in a future terrorist act.
Corollary to this - The breadth of the countries searching alone makes this problematic, but it is not impossible.
The aircraft "shadowed" either a KLM or SIA aircraft to hide from radar then turned off the track and landed.
Questions raised - lot of discussion about if this was possible.
A mechanical failure depressurized the a/c and disabled the crew/passengers either rapidly or without their knowledge.
Corollary to this - What disabled comms?
One of the pilots hijacked the plane to commit suicide. (See Pilot Conspiracy below).
The plane was hijacked, either with or without crew involvement.
Despite the belief this is incident required human actions - we have no evidence of that. Rather - no other theory seems credible.
Freescale engineers have been hijacked for sensitive US data. Opinion: As an engineer who has worked with Freescale - I find that unsupportable. Companies send groups of employees around all the time. While many companies have policies about the # of executives on a flight - that typically is not enforced on regular employees.
There was something in the Cargo worth stealing - which is why it was not screened. This would require involvement of lots of people on the ground. Why not steal it on the ground.
The plane was full of undeclared gold.Gold is very heavy - what would you declare the cargo as?
The US hijacked the 777 using on board FBW technology to fly it like a drone to Diego Garcia (this one wins the insanity case).
Related: There has been a claim by counter terrorist expert that this could be a "cyber hijack" - a malicious attack of a FBW a/c. I don't know where to go with this - only reporting it because I'm trying to stay ahead of the next craze. Opinion: (speaking as an EE) this is the stuff dreams are made of (bad dreams).

Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).
The crew and passengers are a focus of investigation. Particularly the crew, because of the difficulty of managing an external cockpit intrusion.
The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
To address the data on a few of these:
1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?
2) The pilot has a very fancy flight simulator. People claim he used it to for this. Opinion: A 777 pilot does not need to train for the flying done - he knows how to do that stuff already. What he needs it planning for violent action/takeover. A flight simulator is no help.
Note - there has been some discussion that the pilot used this for training of accomplices.
3) There are rumors of family problems reported from China. This has been reported as untrue.

IN summary what we know is. (This has NOT changed)
The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
There is evidence from SATCOM and Radar that the a/c traveled west - then most likely north west.
Hourly SATCOM signals show the a/c was operating till at least 8:11am Malaysia time, over 7 hrs total flight time
We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

Additional thoughts.
A hijacking or positive intervention by human agency seems likely.
The erratic altitude and course may indicate a struggle on board.
While we would like to believe the a/c landed safely somewhere, that seems unlikely to have happened unobserved.


That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-18 09:37:32 and read 28382 times.

Quoting tim73 (Reply 14):
Pretty hopeless to find it that far away in ocean unless they find that 30 day black box ping sound in time. They might someday find some piece of debris thousands of kilometers away washed onshore. The bodies are by now fish food

Yeah, I read the pinger only intended for max depth of 14k ft whereas Indian Ocean search area is 20k +. I am sure an attack submarine could hear it but don't know if we have any nearby.

USN pulled the USS Kidd inexplicably today as well.

Quoting woodreau (Reply 117):
Since we are listening for an active emitter from the data recorder, in addition to the path the sound took to get to the receiver, it is also de

Thanks for the info. I would love to see what a sonar man thinks of finding this thing.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 179):
With the apparent incompetence and intransigence of the Malaysian investigation, this would be a way to shift control.

I realize Malayasia is trying to save face but if I were the leader of a foreign country in this situation I would request the US and NTSB take over. This isn't an ordinary crash. This is a 1 in 1 billion type event and you need the world's best to handle it. There is no shame in admitting you're not the best at this. I would pull in France and Brazil as well in-light of their AF 447 experience.

If it's my national airline's reputation at stake, and if it's my citizen's on board, I would do everything within reason to fix this investigation and do it right away. Even if that means ceding the driver seat to another nation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: pintail21
Posted 2014-03-18 09:37:56 and read 28474 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 174):
Quoting tiong (Reply 174):
Quoting sejtam (Reply 154):
User currently offlinesejtam From Singapore, joined Sep 2011, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted Tue Mar 18 2014 23:32:47 your local time (11 minutes 31 secs ago) and read 1412 times:

Via Dhaal in the direction of Addu. Diego Garcia looks possible again.

Why Diego Garcia?? Putting the dots again.

1.According to the local newspaper , the flight simulator found to contain 5 landing sites in India, Sri lanka , Maldives and Diego Garcia http://english.astroawani.com/news/s...in-zaharies-flight-simulator-32034

2. The pilot's idol is loved by some hidden hands in the most powerful nation on earth..

Conspiracy theory again and I do hope this is not true at all.



If you are a sim enthusiast are you going to check out the approach to a beautiful, tropical place like VRMM or FJDG (where he'll never get a chance to land there unless it's an emergency) or are you going to see what Omaha, Nebraska looks like? And if I'm trying to be super sneaky to get to a destination the last thing I want to do is fly near a strategic American/British (but empty) bomber/transport base with all sorts of sattelite arrays there too, especially while the Russians are trying to take over Ukraine. You think a large unidentified aircraft coming from the northeast, not talking to anyone might cause some alarm? I don't even think a terrorist attack on FJDG is likely. There's not a huge force there and there's no bombers there, if you wanted to attack a base there's a lot more choices.

I don't think you need a sim to practice visual approaches to any large airport. It's a visual approach to a 10,000+ ft runway. Land the jet. If you want to know what it looks like check out google earth or some jepp plates. My guess is he just wanted to experience 2 of the most scenic approaches in the world.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: wxmeddler
Posted 2014-03-18 09:38:02 and read 28426 times.

I apologize in advance if this has been reported already but:

Maldives residents saw 'low-flying jumbo jet' on March 8:
PETALING JAYA (THE STAR/ASIA NEWS NETWORK) - Residents of Kuda Huvadhoo in Dhaal Atoll in the Maldives reportedly saw a "low-flying jumbo jet" flying over houses early in the morning of March 8, the same day Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 went missing.
In a report by Maldivian daily Haveeru, residents described the aircraft which flew over Kuda Huvadhoo at around 6:15am as being white, with red stripes across it.
This colour scheme is very similar to the livery used by Malaysia Airlines on its aircraft - including the Boeing 777 used for MH370.
Eyewitnesses who saw the aircraft agreed that it was travelling in a north to south-east heading towards Addu, the southern tip of the Maldives, and all commented on the very loud noise the aircraft made when flying over the island.

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...-jumbo-jet-march-8-report-20140319

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tiong
Posted 2014-03-18 09:39:54 and read 28335 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 181):
Again with Diego Garcia, you will not land there without expressed permission from military ATC. The base is littered with strategic bombers, including the $3.5 billion B-2 bomber. It is a U.S. Military pit stop. Highly unlikely 370 landed there unnoticed.

I was viewing the local TV station programme about MH 370 few days ago . The pilot (in the tv programme) was explaining about the turnback and the remote probability that the plane was hijacked or technically malfunctioned. According to him, MAS plane has landed in Diego Garcia before when they were contracted to carry the US army to their destinations.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-18 09:40:40 and read 28113 times.

Two important questions:

- Do we have a source or confirmation of the NYT story that the turn was programed into the computer?

- I heard on CNN an expert on ACARS systems this morning claim that had there been any sort of mechanical issue with the plane then a message would have been sent even if the airline was not subscribed to the more expensive package. This again would be in a scenario where there was some mechanical issue (electrical fire or something else) that affected the aircraft. Again, I am trying to pull together as much evidence as possible to take this theory off the table.

I too am leaning in the direction of some sort of intervention but feel that we can not responsibly discard other potential theories until we have good hard evidence to the contrary.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 09:46:33 and read 27584 times.

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 189):

I apologize in advance if this has been reported already but:

I've not seen this report before.
If it is valid:
- It is within the range of the a/c
- It is NOT consistent with the SATCOM ping location.

If the 6:15am time is local to the Maldives - that is 9:15am in Malaysia time - over 1 hr after the last SATCOM ping and shortly after the another would have been expected.

I don't know what to make of this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 09:48:29 and read 27196 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 176):
If the new New York Times article about a new waypoint programmed before ACARS went off is accurate

Do you mean before the transponder quit? The waypoints I think were transmitted by ADS-B.

Quoting nakb (Reply 177):
The track calculated from the hourly handshake "pings" will probably have indicated whether it followed a straight path for most of those 6+ hours (either North or South) - but only the arc from the final "ping" has been made public so we can only speculate as to whether it was under active control for the whole period.

The arcs from the "pings" cannot be used to reconstruct a path for the airplane. All they are is sets of possible locations for the plane at each hourly ping. The plane would have actually been at only one of the many possible points for each ping. The investigators are undoubtedly trying to refine the data, but I think it's unlikely they will be able to reconstruct a path.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 09:49:33 and read 27276 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 191):
Do we have a source or confirmation of the NYT story that the turn was programed into the computer?

No. See my analysis in the lasted Sanity Check

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 181):
ACARS and FMS (Flight Management System)

I did try to analyze the report for consistency (in an effort to validate it). The report is not self consistent - which is a red flag.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 191):
I heard on CNN an expert on ACARS systems this morning claim that had there been any sort of mechanical issue with the plane then a message would have been sent

I don't know if this is correct (re subscription). But not if ACARS transmission had been disabled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: marktci
Posted 2014-03-18 09:49:36 and read 27235 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 178):
I just don't understand this Goodfellow guy's take on the event. He is taking the Occam's Razor method of deduction and using it as a machete. It seems beyond elementary to me that he could look at what happened with MH370, see the runway on Palau Langkawi, and say to himself (and the internet world) "By George, there's a runway - I've solved it!".

The problem with the Wired post is that it doesn't tell you that it was originally posted on March 13th. It may have been valid then but needs to be updated for what we know now.

Link to original post: https://plus.google.com/106271056358366282907/posts/GoeVjHJaGBz

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 09:50:54 and read 27026 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 191):
Do we have a source or confirmation of the NYT story that the turn was programed into the computer?

Given what we know from the limited primary radar data it makes total sense that this is they way it would have been done. (We've talked Occam's razor to death but I think this is a situation where it applies.)

[Edited 2014-03-18 10:04:12]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-18 09:53:28 and read 26759 times.

Quoting marktci (Reply 195):
The problem with the Wired post is that it doesn't tell you that it was originally posted on March 13th. It may have been valid then but needs to be updated for what we know now.

Link to original post: https://plus.google.com/106271056358366282907/posts/GoeVjHJaGBz

if you read through the original post, he does update his thoughts. as the original post's comments are now full of media inquiries, i'd expect him to update it sometime during the day today.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-18 09:54:45 and read 26618 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 192):

logically speaking, if we are to believe what was said by the Malaysian transport minister (that the plane had another 30 mins of fuel left) - if this is true - then either the plane landed and took off again or it had been refuelled and took off again.

question- let's just assume this was a true sighting... the pinging to the satellite may have stopped if the plane was now out of range of the one satellite that receives those pings? would it not have orientated itself onto another satellite?

(according to Mandala there are three)

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 94):

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 09:56:18 and read 26385 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 186):
Why?: If we had data proving the FMS was reprogrammed - that data would have to come from the aircraft via some communication channel.•-If that channel was gate communication - it happened before takeoff•-If that channel was ACARS (VHF or SATCOM) - it happened after takeoff

Wasn't there a previous post by perhaps zeke that something like the last two waypoints and the next two waypoints get transmitted by ADS-B? This would suggest that they got no future waypoint info once the transponder went dead.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: nakb
Posted 2014-03-18 09:57:05 and read 26378 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 193):
The arcs from the "pings" cannot be used to reconstruct a path for the airplane. All they are is sets of possible locations for the plane at each hourly ping. The plane would have actually been at only one of the many possible points for each ping. The investigators are undoubtedly trying to refine the data, but I think it's unlikely they will be able to reconstruct a path.

Granted that each individual "ping" only gives rise to an arc, by plotting the arcs from several consecutive pings and making assumptions about speed you can get a feel for a track. However this only works if the plane is following a straight track at more or less constant speed and you will not be able to distinguish between northern and southern alternatives. This was alluded to in the Australian press conference earlier today (see earlier link to recording of that).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 09:57:20 and read 26316 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 198):
would it not have orientated itself onto another satellite?

It would have had to have been in range of another satellite.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 09:58:09 and read 26484 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 180):
The hijacker, presumably one of the pilots, begins by programming the first turn into the plane while the other pilot is not looking. This data is sent with the last ACARS message.

That would be pretty hard to do, I would think, if it's anything like the 737. The display unit isn't really out of the way, the other pilot would have to be facing away from the display units quite a bit. Plus, there is a good chance the pilot would notice the change on the nav display.

I don't think this happened. Typing a few waypoints in does not take very long and I don't think the supposed hijacker pilot would risk blowing it to save a few seconds.

Also, the first waypoint in the deviation flightplan would either have to be the active waypoint (which would be very obvious as the plane would have turned, unless he didn't hit EXEC and have that button just lit up for the world to see) or it would be after an existing waypoint (which would mean they'd have to fly all the way to that waypoint then turn.) I guess you could also have a discontinuity but that would require him to drag the point up to the active waypoint so what would be the point?

Don't think it happened that way

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 189):

I apologize in advance if this has been reported already but:

Maldives residents saw 'low-flying jumbo jet' on March 8:

It has but I'm not sure if I buy it. This incident is a great example of how conspiracy theories are made... people often try and use all the allegations they hear and force fit it into one conspiracy. There are just a lot of tidbits that aren't true, especially regarding eye witnesses. Don't forget about the oil rig worker... either one/both of them are wrong or you have some crazy theory that can somehow explain the two of them in relation to MH370.

Oh, I'm not saying you're making up conspiracy theories, I'm just thinking this alleged sighting may amount to nothing and for people to be wary of the information that comes out... this might amount to nothing so we can't just abandon all other theories that don't include this alleged sighting

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-18 09:58:29 and read 26571 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 179):
Is the current Australian search zone located such that if MH370 were found there, that the investigation would be headed up by the ATSB? With the apparent incompetence and intransigence of the Malaysian investigation, this would be a way to shift control.

Unless you have access to information we don't you I don't see how you are any in a position to say that. With apparently very little evidence, this is not exactly an easy search nor is a straight forward investigation. They searched the area where the last confirmed contact was made. They searched the area where the last suspected contact was made. They've asked for neighbouring countries to look for evidence in their airspace. They've asked for technical help from other countries. If it headed out unseen over the Indian Ocean or over land towards Central Asia, what else are they supposed to do? Stamping your feet and expecting them to stop messing about and "just know" isn't going to help.

If it's found anywhere it would advance the investigation a great deal.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 186):
Sanity Check - 3/18/2014 15:00Z

Thanks again.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-18 10:06:32 and read 25843 times.

Yes a civilian airliner can land at Diego Garcia, if it is pre-scheduled and charted to carry troops or cargo. In the event of an emergency landing, you can be sure that the military would greet the aircraft on the runway and guide in it and park it FAR from armed B-2's, B-52's, etc. I haven't heard any reports out of Diego Garcia of the military dealing with a Malaysian 777. Landing there is the same as landing at a sensitive Air Force Base in the U.S.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 10:10:41 and read 25317 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 198):
question- let's just assume this was a true sighting... the pinging to the satellite may have stopped if the plane was now out of range of the one satellite that receives those pings? would it not have orientated itself onto another satellite?

The map for coverage is in the latest sanity check - post 186. This location is covered by the same satellite and it is closer, not further from it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: wingz
Posted 2014-03-18 10:12:06 and read 24957 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 186):
"Flight 370’s Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official."
Quoting hivue (Reply 199):
Wasn't there a previous post by perhaps zeke that something like the last two waypoints and the next two waypoints get transmitted by ADS-B? This would suggest that they got no future waypoint info once the transponder went dead.


For the transmitting of FMS waypoints (to ATC), is it ADS or ACARS that would be used? ADS seems more logical for this job. Or maybe this data is added in to ACARS anyway? If its ADS then presumably we would know precisely when the waypoints were entered as a result of transponder output. If its ACARS we would know only that the waypoints were entered before 1:07.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 10:13:15 and read 24993 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 203):
With apparently very little evidence, this is not exactly an easy search nor is a straight forward investigation. ...what else are they [Malaysia] supposed to do?

I've heard many people defending the Malaysian handling of the investigation, and I agree that we do have to give them the benefit of the doubt to some extent. However there have been plenty of signals of mismanagement and incompetence in the investigation.

One that sticks out like a sore thumb in my mind is the fact that Malaysian authorities claimed ACARS had been shut down at 1:07am, well before the transponder was disabled. For days, many, many users in this forum pointed out that this was probably not the case - ACARS had just sent its last message at 1:07 and probably was disabled later, if at all. It took the Malaysian authorities 3 days to walk this statement back and confirm what we had suspected the entire time. That's not a good sign of a well-handled technical investigation, in my mind.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: woodreau
Posted 2014-03-18 10:13:24 and read 25098 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 187):
Thanks for the info. I would love to see what a sonar man thinks of finding this thing.

Following the link from the sanity check,
http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html

From the article:

Quote:
The maximum detection range is determined primarily by the frequency and the transmission power, with an initial source level of 160.5dB re 1µPa @ 1m, which reduces to 157.0dB re 1µPa @ 1m, after 30 days.

The power level is less than 1/2 after 30 days. with a 3dB reduction being a reduction in 1/2 the power output.

The 2-3km limitation is solely from a direct path sound propagation from the source directly to the receiver.

The other propagation sources - deep sound channel, bottom bounce, convergence zones all depend on the environmental conditions and the local speed of sound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_acoustics

Knowing the frequency of the emitter helps, because you will receive the beacon at a different frequency and the difference between the base frequency and the received frequency is used to compute doppler shift which is used to determine the speed of the two objects towards or away along the line of sound. Since the beacon is assumed to be stationary then the entire doppler shift is totally reliant on the movement of the receiver.


In any case I personally don't believe they will locate the aircraft with any degree of certainty within the 30 days for any of this to be practical and will have to rely on side scanning sonar of the seabed to locate this plane if it is on the bottom of an ocean, like they did with AF447.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 10:16:49 and read 24597 times.

Quoting wingz (Reply 206):
For the transmitting of FMS waypoints (to ATC), is it ADS or ACARS that would be used? ADS seems more logical for this job. Or maybe this data is added in to ACARS anyway? If its ADS then presumably we would know precisely when the waypoints were entered as a result of transponder output. If its ACARS we would know only that the waypoints were entered before 1:07.

Yes - I need to edit it for ADS transmission. But - if the ADS - we would know when so the "before or after takeoff"question would not exist. If ACARS - then that is not consistent with the 1:07 transmission being Rolls Royce Engine Health which are very short per and would not include FMS data.).

So - I'm still seeing flags here. Doesn't mean it is not true - just that I'm not comfortable with the confirmation.
BTW - the sanity checks have been remarkably stable (surprising to me and I wrote them) - and this consistency approach has been what I've been using. I just 'described' it in this case.

Doesn't mean I'm right!

[Edited 2014-03-18 10:19:11]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: freqflyerNYC
Posted 2014-03-18 10:22:23 and read 24104 times.

New member and first time poster, but like many, have been following the forum for some time. I have found some of the information, including the synopsis provided by rcair1, to be particularly helpful. With that said, I believe the simplest explanation is often the most accurate.

Apologies if the following links have been posted previously. I found the first article compelling because it's the only theory that appears to (potentially) make sense from point of communication loss through to the final 'handshake' (and ultimate disappearance of the aircraft, wherever and whenever that occurred). And also because it was written by a pilot with particular expertise with the aircraft in question (several comments after the article mention his reputation/experience, including teaching flight simulation for the Boeing 777).

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/opinion/palmer-malaysia-flight-370/

The second article, from the NY Times, addresses the issue of absence of cell phone calls for the duration of the flight:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...-from-missing-passengers.html?_r=0

It was widely assumed loss of communication at different points during the flight indicated a deliberate intervention. Yesterday we learned this information was inaccurate, and that the loss of the two systems may (or may not) have happened concurrently. In light of this revelation, the prospect of some type of mechanical failure, or catastrophic event, once again became a more viable explanation for the loss of the flight.

Clearly all scenarios put forth, or discussed thus far, are problematic in some way. Why go to such extreme, and incredibly high risk measures to steal an aircraft when there are far simpler ways to obtain one.? Or why hijack a plane only to dump it in the ocean (southern corridor theory)? Or follow a highly difficult northern route where detection by a large number of radar systems was likely? Why not commit suicide during the early stages of the flight, instead of keeping the plane in the air for 7 + hours? Why engage in such an elaborate scheme to secure cargo when it would have been easier, and presented far less risk to steal while on the ground? Why take passengers for ransom and fail to contact anyone, or make demands? Why commit an act of terror and fail to claim responsibility? In my opinion the theory proposed by Mr. Palmer in the CNN piece is the most plausible, and features fewer contradictory elements, than any other offered thus far.

Finally, doesn't this scenario also make sense in light of the two reports we've had of potential witnesses to date? The first early reports of fisherman on the coast of Malaysia stating they heard a loud noise, perhaps akin to something with the fans of an aircraft engine (at around the time the plane would have been expected to be in their vicinity had in turned around and was heading back over the island). There was no way to follow-up on the reports, or verify what the noise might have been at that point. All that could be said was the approximate time of the noise (if it was related to an aircraft) corresponded roughly to when the plane might have been in the area, and that the fisherman were in a location where it might have been possible to hear such a noise (if it occurred, and if it was related to MH370). The more recent reports of a plane passing over the Maldives at 6:15am, and flying low at the time, might also correspond roughly to when the flight ceased sending 'handshakes.' 6:15am in the Maldives is 9:15am KL time, or one hour after the final 8:11am ping registered by the satellites. If the pings were hourly, and another would have been expected at 9:11am, this would have put the plane still in the air just a few minutes after that final ping should have been heard. But the times are close enough, in particular if the plane was nearing the end of its' journey, that they may still work out once more is known. Of course the Maldives information is new, and unsubstantiated, and it makes you wonder why we haven't heard anything about them during the past 11 days. We'll have to wait for further details, or confirmation, but if true it would certainly narrow the search area dramatically. In particular if they can determine approximate altitude at the point the plane was located over the islands. It is interesting the Maldives reports also make mention of a loud noise, though whether this is related to the noise heard by fishermen in Malaysia (or if either report is even true) we'll have to wait and see.

I would be interested to hear rcair1's opinion on the CNN article, and whether he thinks the scenario presented is plausible, or perhaps even likely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: airbazar
Posted 2014-03-18 10:26:43 and read 23764 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 204):
Yes a civilian airliner can land at Diego Garcia, if it is pre-scheduled and charted to carry troops or cargo. In the event of an emergency landing, you can be sure that the military would greet the aircraft on the runway and guide in it and park it FAR from armed B-2's, B-52's, etc. I haven't heard any reports out of Diego Garcia of the military dealing with a Malaysian 777. Landing there is the same as landing at a sensitive Air Force Base in the U.S.

Not exactly the same but pretty close. I'd say it's the same as landing at a sensitive U.S. base in the UK  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-18 10:28:04 and read 23535 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 207):
One that sticks out like a sore thumb in my mind is the fact that Malaysian authorities claimed ACARS had been shut down at 1:07am, well before the transponder was disabled. For days, many, many users in this forum pointed out that this was probably not the case - ACARS had just sent its last message at 1:07 and probably was disabled later, if at all.

Do you think the actual investigation was side-tracked by that, especially given the participation of the NTSB, AAIB, Boeing, RR, etc? Perhaps NTSB press conferences would be more satisfying but I admit I haven't given that a lot of thought.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-18 10:28:28 and read 23526 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 205):

thanks. So what would have made the plane stop pinging? if they switched off satcom, why after 7 hours of transponder?

confusing. and again, only if sighting is real...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 10:30:20 and read 23579 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 193):
Do you mean before the transponder quit? The waypoints I think were transmitted by ADS-B.

The NYT article has the following:

Quote:
Flight 370’s Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official.

Either I, you or the reporter or possibly all of us are confused about the details.

It appears ADS-B (broadcast) periodically broadcasts information about the aircraft, such as identification, current position, altitude, and velocity, through an onboard transmitter. It appears not to be sending any waypoint information.

ADS-C (contract) seems to be able to send waypoint information.

http://code7700.com/ads-c.html

Quote:
Within the contract request, several different data groups may be specified. These include the basic position report, which contains three-dimensional position and time, and additional on-request groups. These groups include aircraft and wind velocity, vertical speed and limited waypoint information. When an ADS Waypoint Change event contract is active, position report data is sent when the aircraft reaches the bisector of the angles at a flight plan waypoint.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 10:32:03 and read 23300 times.

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 210):
I would be interested to hear rcair1's opinion on the CNN article, and whether he thinks the scenario presented is plausible, or perhaps even likely.

I actually had not seen that article and I find it very interesting. The discussion of how the 777 FBW will make the aircraft more stable during a non-directed, non a/p controlled flight are very compelling and something that a private pilot like me does not experience. My concern with such an undirected flight is that the aircraft could not stay in stable flight for an extended period as fuel burns and atmospheric conditions change and it is based on my personal experience and knowledge of how non-FBW systems operate.

The idea that the 777's FBW system is auto-trimming to speed, and maintaining stable roll attitude changes that equation for me a bit.

BTW - this is consistent with a side conversation I've been having with a well respected member here - perhaps he will chime in.

-rcair1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-18 10:35:17 and read 22933 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 209):
But - if the ADS - we would know when so the "before or after takeoff"question would not exist. If ACARS - then that is not consistent with the 1:07 transmission being Rolls Royce Engine Health which are very short per and would not include FMS data.).

It is possible SITA gets all ACARS messages and forwards only those based on subscription. Based on MAS statements they subscribed only for engines. I guess every one involved mining the data they have to solve this mystery.

[Edited 2014-03-18 10:35:51]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 10:35:18 and read 23051 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 214):
Either I, you or the reporter or possibly all of us are confused about the details.

Confusion is the name of the game here.

Thanks for your data - I will incorporate it in the next update. (which probably will be some hours - got work to do).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 10:36:29 and read 22847 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 216):
It is possible SITA gets all ACARS messages and forwards only those based on subscription. Based on MAS statements they subscribed on for engines. I guess every one involved mining the data they have to solve this mystery.

I doubt it. BW on satellites is expensive. SITA does not own them or provide that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: 4holer
Posted 2014-03-18 10:39:50 and read 22697 times.

Are B-2s stationed at Diego Garcia or is that just a stopping point? If they are based there, is it possible that a disappearing airliner is an attempt to lure the US into repositioning them to a "safer" location? Maybe on the Arabian Peninsula?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 10:40:07 and read 22461 times.

Anybody know how often the Malaysian authorities (I am assuming they are still heading the investigation) are holding press conferences on MH370?

I'm trying to keep my head firmly in reality and not get carried away with a lot of the theories going around....but I'd find it a lot easier if I knew when the press briefings are/were, and what was said.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-18 10:41:53 and read 22630 times.

Anyone heard about Maldives residents seeing a low flying jumbo jet. Why this after so many days? Weird but intriguing.

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio...ng-MH370-maldive-low-flying-jumbo/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 10:45:30 and read 22070 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 220):

usually happens at 1730L 0930UTC

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hotelbravo
Posted 2014-03-18 10:45:31 and read 22167 times.

It looks like some points on the Southern arc lie very close to the edge of the receiving area for the POR Inmarsat satellite. Any chance that POR picked up a ping?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 10:48:17 and read 21777 times.

Quoting hotelbravo (Reply 223):
It looks like some points on the Southern arc lie very close to the edge of the receiving area for the POR Inmarsat satellite. Any chance that POR picked up a ping?

Apparently they used the fact that POR did not pick up any 08:11L ping to chop out the area between the arcs.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 10:48:51 and read 21810 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 219):
Are B-2s stationed at Diego Garcia or is that just a stopping point? If they are based there, is it possible that a disappearing airliner is an attempt to lure the US into repositioning them to a "safer" location? Maybe on the Arabian Peninsula?

 

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: pintail21
Posted 2014-03-18 10:57:02 and read 21121 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 219):
Quoting 4holer (Reply 219):
Are B-2s stationed at Diego Garcia or is that just a stopping point? If they are based there, is it possible that a disappearing airliner is an attempt to lure the US into repositioning them to a "safer" location? Maybe on the Arabian Peninsula?



No.
B-2's are at Guam to show the ruskies, chinese and NK's we're ready to go, but there's no reason to stop at DG. In the opening days of OEF/OIF B-1's and B-52's operated out of there as well as cargo planes but last time I passed through there the ramp was empty and the controllers were begging us for multiple approaches for currencies.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 10:57:26 and read 21330 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 214):
It appears ADS-B (broadcast) periodically broadcasts information about the aircraft, such as identification, current position, altitude, and velocity, through an onboard transmitter. It appears not to be sending any waypoint information.

ADS-C (contract) seems to be able to send waypoint information.
OK, thanks. I'm still of the opinion that the reason they think the FMS was used to fly the plane is because what primary radar coverage they have showed it overflying standard waypoints.

[Edited 2014-03-18 10:58:06]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 10:57:46 and read 21413 times.

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 210):
I found the first article compelling because it's the only theory that appears to (potentially) make sense from point of communication loss through to the final 'handshake' (and ultimate disappearance of the aircraft, wherever and whenever that occurred). And also because it was written by a pilot with particular expertise with the aircraft in question (several comments after the article mention his reputation/experience, including teaching flight simulation for the Boeing 777).

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/opinio...-370/

Definitely an interesting perspective, but the fact that the plane supposedly flew through three separate nav waypoints (VAMPI, GIVAL, IGREX) does not seem consistent with random pilotless heading changes... The chances of flying a route through three waypoints by random chance is practically nil. Of course this is assuming the VAMPI/GIVAL/IGREX reports are correct, and were not just a case of reporters/authorities mentioning the nearest waypoints to the route.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: BoeingBear
Posted 2014-03-18 11:01:16 and read 21063 times.

Quoting milan320 (Reply 141):

This theory is well thought-out and might have been plausible a couple of days after the disappearance, but some of his ideas don’t quite work – and new facts from last week make it even harder to believe:

1) One of the search areas in the first 72 hours after MH370’s disappearance was exactly in the area he suggests (west of the Malay Peninsula in the Strait of Malacca). Quite simply, where is the wreckage?

2) How would the airplane have continued flying for 7 hours with an onboard fire? Even if you assume the crew were dead or incapacitated, hydraulics, fuel lines, and even basic structural integrity would have been at risk in far less than 7 hours.

3) ACARS not transmitting would have triggered an alert in the flight management system (FMS), *especially* if it were part of a larger electrical failure.

4) "But going to 45,000 feet in a hijack scenario doesn’t make any good sense to me." --> No, it makes a lot of sense: Flying that high and depressurizing the cabin would be the easiest way to incapacitate the passengers & flight attendants.

5) "A hijacking would not have made that deliberate left turn with a direct heading for Langkawi. It probably would have weaved around a bit until the hijackers decided where they were taking it." --> This assumes that the "new" flight route wasn't planned in advance.

6) "In the case of a fire, the first response is to pull the main buses and restore circuits one by one until you have isolated the bad one." --> Yes, except the buses in a 777 are in an electrical bay under the forward galley. Are we to believe that a pilot left the flight deck and risked his safety to personally fight the fire and/or pull the buses instead of flying the airplane?

And all of this ignores the possibility that one or both pilots were involved. A lot of pilots are really angry that the idea is even being considered – and I definitely understand why (my dad was an airline captain who would've hated the idea too) – but there have been too many incidents in recent years involving pilot misconduct (EgyptAir 990, SilkAir 185, LAM 470, Ethiopian 702, JetBlue 191, etc.) for the possibility to be ignored.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-18 11:04:57 and read 20725 times.

I'm going to throw in my take...the pre-programmed waypoints added to the flight management computer that took the aircraft onto a different course did not include a rapid ascent to 45,000 then a subsequent uneven descent to 23,000...clearly that is a sign of a struggle in the cockpit...maybe one pilot was strangling the other, and the pilot being strangled panicked and yanked back on the yoke, disconnecting the auto pilot, with a resulting disconnect of VNAV and LNAV autopilot functions. The aircraft then entered stall conditions and descended for over 20,000 to regain sufficient airspeed. The aircraft then continued on the edited course plan, indicating the hijacking pilot was successful at disabling the "non-participating" pilot.

What doesn't make sense is the other pilot should have noticed the hijacking pilot entering in waypoints, or the now west-bound magenta line one the MFCD, but, unless the break in the order of waypoints was connected yet, he may not have noticed it.

The United States has been very quiet the last few days, and pulled out the U.S.S. Kidd, making me suspicious that something is afoot.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 11:06:15 and read 20424 times.

possibility brings in more possibility, if the electrical failure was the cause and somehow air crew were incapacitated, cabin crew and/or pax tried to save the day and either were also incapacitated by fire or smoke or simply their heroic behaviour failed

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 11:08:54 and read 20212 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 231):
possibility brings in more possibility, if the electrical failure was the cause and somehow air crew were incapacitated, cabin crew and/or pax tried to save the day and either were also incapacitated by fire or smoke or simply their heroic behaviour failed


And the turns at the waypoints are just a coincidence?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 11:09:45 and read 20230 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 230):
clearly that is a sign of a struggle in the cockpit

Is it now? We can't necessarily conclude that

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 11:12:52 and read 19993 times.

Yay for science it seems. The search area for the sat's being narrowed down by an order of magnitude no longer means it is almost impossible to find anymore. With the news from the AMSA stated it was also optimized for ocean flow and surface conditions which probably means supercomputer time + them rubber duckys (in essence) now instead of years>decades it will take at ideally weeks to find something. I also already said long ago POR's coverage was likely used in the lack or presence of signal to help with estimates.

Once they add other military radar data and the fact the search area is now significantly narrowed most overly complex conspiracy theories are now invalid.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: qualitydr
Posted 2014-03-18 11:13:15 and read 19975 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 186):
That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1

I stand in total awe of your work, rcair1. Many thanks for your diligence and rational, fact-based approach. The longer this event goes on without resolution, the more we will learn to prize your summaries...

QualityDr

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 11:13:25 and read 19877 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 232):
And the turns at the waypoints are just a coincidence?

the turns are just an assumption, no one from government gave us images of radars showing blips, am just trying to make some sense of the theory that pilot tried a straight return to LGK

[Edited 2014-03-18 11:15:34]

edited to correct airport code


[Edited 2014-03-18 11:17:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rickabone
Posted 2014-03-18 11:21:29 and read 19131 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 229):
2) How would the airplane have continued flying for 7 hours with an onboard fire? Even if you assume the crew were dead or incapacitated, hydraulics, fuel lines, and even basic structural integrity would have been at risk in far less than 7 hours.

Quite simply the on board fire either suffocated itself after rendering enough smoke to kill everyone on board or it caused a hull breach that wasn't aerodynamically that harmful, but depressurized the airplane, killing everyone on board and again, starving the fire of oxygen.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 11:21:42 and read 19309 times.

Some reports appearing that residents on Maldive islands reported seeing a low flying jet. White with red strips. Is there any credibility here?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 11:22:01 and read 19241 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 236):
the turns are just an assumption, no one from government gave us images of radars showing blips, am just trying to make some sense of the theory that pilot tried a straight return to LGK


The one thing that has remained stable in this story are those waypoint turns.

They took a 777 and flew the same route.

I think the turns are not assumptions, but are based on good primary radar tracks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 11:22:03 and read 19033 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 227):
OK, thanks. I'm still of the opinion that the reason they think the FMS was used to fly the plane is because what primary radar coverage they have showed it overflying standard waypoints.

I did a little bit more digging into the ADS-C. Specifically:

Quote:
Note.— If the flight crew inserts non-ATC waypoints (e.g. mid-points) into the aircraft active flight plan and activates the change, the aircraft system may trigger an ADS-C waypoint change event report at the non-ATC waypoint, or include information about the non-ATC waypoint in the predicted route group, as well as the intermediate and fixed projected intent groups. As a result, the ADS-C report will include information about the non-ATC waypoint, which is not expected by the ATC ground system.

Source: http://code7700.com/pdfs/icao_gold.pdf (paragraph 5.6.3.2)

It appears ADS-C would be fully able to send waypoint changes to the ground control. Whether MH 370 had ADS-C active I don't know. It is possible that NYT reporter is confusing ACARS and ADS-C.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: freqflyerNYC
Posted 2014-03-18 11:27:57 and read 18530 times.

Quote:
=dandelany,reply=228Definitely an interesting perspective, but the fact that the plane supposedly flew through three separate nav waypoints (VAMPI, GIVAL, IGREX) does not seem consistent with random pilotless heading changes... The chances of flying a route through three waypoints by random chance is practically nil. Of course this is assuming the VAMPI/GIVAL/IGREX reports are correct, and were not just a case of reporters/authorities mentioning the nearest waypoints to the route.

I believe the article addresses this, or perhaps it was another article presenting a similar scenario. If there was a catastrophic event, the pilots may have had time to turn the plane around, and attempt to re-program the flight before becoming fully incapacitated. And depending on condition, or level of confusion, they may not have been fully successful in re-programming, or may have entered information other than what was intended.

I believe the article also mentions the waypoint information may not have been as specific as some believe, and because of the vague data, could just as easily be explained by an auto-pilot 'off' scenario. It would depend on specific details, such as how sharp the turns were, and whether plane was flown straight subsequent to the turn/s in question. And apparently there is no way to determine this from the information available, or that has been released thus far. Based on what we know right now the scenario presented in the article would appear just as reasonable, or likely to have occurred as any other scenario being discussed. And in many ways, would make a lot more sense.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-18 11:29:41 and read 18417 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 238):
Some reports appearing that residents on Maldive islands reported seeing a low flying jet. White with red strips. Is there any credibility here?

the timing (6:15AM local, 9:15am Kuala Lumpur) time seems off.

i am hoping there are some clarifications in the coming hours and days. The locale (I looked on Bing Maps) is really quite isolated. It may have taken some time for news to get from there to Male, if the sighting is real.

If the sighting is real, and it was MH370, plane might be in deep water not very far from there, perhaps to its southwest. Prevailing currents would have pushed any floating debris westward. My speculation is everyone was long dead by that point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 11:29:42 and read 18380 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 239):
The one thing that has remained stable in this story are those waypoint turns.

They took a 777 and flew the same route.

I think the turns are not assumptions, but are based on good primary radar tracks

all this is frustrating with only 1 daily well orchestrated and choreographed press conference, and so many countries sensitivity military radars returns that they feel awkward to share infos and the sudden silence of US anonymous sources to American media, either heavy things going on behind the scenes or just everybody is in the dark

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: BoeingBear
Posted 2014-03-18 11:32:49 and read 18075 times.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 237):
Quite simply the on board fire either suffocated itself after rendering enough smoke to kill everyone on board or it caused a hull breach that wasn't aerodynamically that harmful, but depressurized the airplane, killing everyone on board and again, starving the fire of oxygen.

So, this fire generated enough smoke to asphyxiate the passengers, but only lasted long enough to fry the communication systems without affecting the autopilot, FMS, or any other critical avionics (never mind hydraulics, fuel lines, etc.)? Talk about a 0.0000000001% probability event...

Also, wouldn't the pilots have put on their oxygen masks?

Not trying to pick a fight here -- just questioning assumptions. Please react accordingly.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: TheRedBAron
Posted 2014-03-18 11:34:40 and read 17896 times.

Is it possible that there was a fire in the aircraft, and the cabin filled with smoke, panic ensued, the pilots knowing the big problem tried to use a higher altitude an and depresurise the aircraft to extinguish the fire, but while doing so, they lost other systems, comms and such due to the dire scenario.... then they regained control but the FADEC became stuck en the aircraft and it kept flying, till fuel lasted.... I know this theory has some plot holes on it but its quite plausible, or someone entering the cockpit and trying to gain control of the plane to encounter opposition by pilots....

I still don't think this was suicide...

TRB

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2014-03-18 11:35:26 and read 18008 times.

If MH370 is the aircraft they saw, and it should be possible to find out if they saw a Malaysian plane or another one - then it must have used up ist fuel mostly by that time. It was loud, so engines still were working. In this case it should be not too far from that location.
Communication from such remote places can be slow - and it can also be a hoax...

Is it possible for the landing intended in Pulau Langkawi that the first way points were used for such an alternate?
Despite all doubts this theory still is the most likely one for me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 11:35:26 and read 17857 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 240):
It appears ADS-C would be fully able to send waypoint changes to the ground control. Whether MH 370 had ADS-C active I don't know. It is possible that NYT reporter is confusing ACARS and ADS-C.

Per the ADS wikipedia page - "ADS-A [also known as ADS-C] reports are employed in the Future Air Navigation System (FANS) using the Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) as the communication protocol."

So perhaps you're both right. Furthermore, from this page: http://code7700.com/ads-c.html (assuming it's true), there are a few types of reports that can be sent by ADS-C, including:

Quote:

Basic group (included in every report):
FMS Latitude
FMS Longitude
Pressure altitude from the Selected Air Data System(ADS 1, 2, or 3) for the Master FMS
Time stamp from the system clock (synchronized to GPS UTC when available)
FMS Figure of merit (NAV accuracy)
TCAS Health
Navigation System Redundancy

...

Predicted Route Group:
Latitude at next waypoint
Longitude at next waypoint
Altitude at next waypoint
ETA at next waypoint
Latitude at next +1 wpt
Longitude at next +1 wpt
Altitude at next +1 wpt

(see the page for the rest). This certainly seems like a viable explanation for the NYTimes article claiming the waypoints were pre-programmed on the FMC. Can any pilots comment further about ADS-C?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 11:35:45 and read 17868 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 244):
So, this fire generated enough smoke to asphyxiate the passengers, but only lasted long enough to fry the communication systems without affecting the autopilot, FMS, or any other critical avionics (never mind hydraulics, fuel lines, etc.)? Talk about a 0.0000000001% probability event...

Also, wouldn't the pilots have put on their oxygen masks?

Not trying to pick a fight here -- just questioning assumptions. Please react accordingly.  

Carbon Monoxide is cumulative.

Edit: Carbon monoxide is a common combustion byproduct and is colorless, odorless, and tasteless even low concentrations or repeat exposure can be fatal (Hence, cumulative).

[Edited 2014-03-18 11:49:55]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 11:40:26 and read 17342 times.

Quoting freqflyerNYC (Reply 241):
I believe the article addresses this, or perhaps it was another article presenting a similar scenario. If there was a catastrophic event, the pilots may have had time to turn the plane around, and attempt to re-program the flight before becoming fully incapacitated.

You're thinking of another article, perhaps you should re-read this one before commenting on it. The CNN article in question specifically claims "If the autopilot was off and the airplane was essentially flying on its own, I would expect a variety of heading changes. These changes could be initiated by turbulence during flight."

Additionally, the altitude-change data which he uses as a key point of his argument has been described from the beginning as "suspect" and potentially inaccurate.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: jpetekyxmd80
Posted 2014-03-18 11:43:15 and read 17182 times.

Question: is it possible that before they could reach land, they decided to immediately ascend to 45,000 feet and depressurize in a fire suppression effort?

Sorry i see this has been asked, but could this be a viable reaction?

[Edited 2014-03-18 11:45:26]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 11:49:12 and read 16576 times.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 250):

IIRC, depressurization won't put out a fire, and may make things worse.

http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/2010Confe...lDepressurizationFreighterPres.pdf

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-18 11:49:31 and read 16980 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 240):
Whether MH 370 had ADS-C active I don't know
Quoting dandelany (Reply 247):
Can any pilots comment further about ADS-C?

I'm not a pilot, but I have worked an ADS-C/CPDLC system for many years.

I personally find it unlikely that MAS370 was logged on to ADS-C. ADS-C is not a broadcast system (like ADS-B is), but rather a data 'contract' hence the name ADS-C. This requires the pilot to specifically log on to the radar system - whether or not Malaysia actually have an ADS-C system I have no idea.

There are data validity checks between loaded FMC route and our FPL in the FDP. Where I worked there was an alarm triggered if the route was not identical. I am not sure how far ahead in the FMC our FDP compares.

ADS-C position reports do include a variety of data, of which some are waypoints.

I doubt they were using ADS-C.

Let the arguing begin.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-18 11:49:42 and read 17212 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 91):
Have any other the other 6 or 7 satellite ping distance circles been plotted? I've only seen the last one. It might be useful to have a map of all satellite distance circles, plus the radar track from Thailand and Malaysia.

Agreed.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 181):
Again with Diego Garcia, you will not land there without expressed permission from military ATC. The base is littered with strategic bombers, including the $3.5 billion B-2 bomber. It is a U.S. Military pit stop. Highly unlikely 370 landed there unnoticed.

Another crazy theory: Plane tries to land at Diego Garcia, can't identify itself (comms are off/out), gets shot down, cover-up underway....and they are trying to figure out how to shut those Maldivians up.

Quoting Trin (Reply 220):
Anybody know how often the Malaysian authorities (I am assuming they are still heading the investigation) are holding press conferences on MH370?

Personally i search twitter for "#mh370 press conference" and whenever one is announced you see it there,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 11:50:36 and read 16765 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 240):
It appears ADS-C would be fully able to send waypoint changes to the ground control.

But not if the transponder was off, right?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: savethequads
Posted 2014-03-18 11:50:46 and read 16852 times.

Would a pilot look at a transponder frequently to make sure it operating?

My experience tell me no. I know in the C-17 (which is pretty similar in design to the 777 from everything I see) you'd have to look back and down. It turning off automatically would not raise any red flags to the pilot.

How would they know they were turned off and didn't just go off line?

Does anyone have a schematic of the avionics bays on a 777?

I would post a schematic of the C-17 but... well... I like to feed my family and put a roof over their heads. What I can tell you is the wire bundles and buses that control all communications including the radios and transponder have a common point( the 1553COMM bus between the CCUs) There are 2 of them but in Boeing's genius, they put them right next to each other. Remember these wires can burn but they are designed not to burn well, but they can and do burn slowly. I have seen a smoldering mess of wires in the past that never became a fire but horribly degraded many systems.

Imagine if Egypt Air 677 didn't have the oxygen as an accelerant and a wire was arcing, slowly starting a fire. How far would they have gotten before the fire was noticeable? 10000 feet? cruise? Had it disappeared there would have been immediate concerns of terrorism before any facts were presented as well.

I believe this happened and they turned back to KUL but the fire started knocking systems off one by one.
They might have fought to put the fire out. Succeed then realized its too late. The cockpit was so degraded they had no control. So they have engines running but no way to throttle back or turn, they have no way to convey they are in trouble.

If the airplane is all trimmed up for level flight but then you lose the ability to control. What would happen? wouldn't the plane start drifting off of course whatever way the winds aloft were taking it? explaining a NW turn? wouldn't the plane be at the mercy of the winds? What i mean is the plane got stuck in a certain state and stayed like that until it eventually ran out of fuel.

I only know about a Cessna, but if you have it trimmed right it and never touch the throttles it will stay airborne at the same altitude give or take with out any interaction until you ran it out of fuel. but.... it tends to veer off course. It will go left then it will go right. then back to the left but it stays airborne at the same altitude more or less.

Have they actually determined the plane flew back over the Malay pen. at much less that FL180? I keep seeing this stated in various places but when I go to the source the source does not say this. It basically say they don't know.

After the development of the Thai radar debacle, it's hard to trust a damn thing that comes out of southeast Asian country officials.

This early in the American 587 disaster investigation terrorism was still officially the number one theory by us government officials, so I don't really trust that they have inside information either.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 11:54:20 and read 16495 times.

Quoting savethequads (Reply 255):

Everyone suggesting a fire needs to add an explanation for the following several hours of flight, including turns at waypoints.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 11:54:57 and read 16460 times.

Quoting savethequads (Reply 255):
There are 2 of them but in Boeing's genius, they put them right next to each other. Remember these wires can burn but they are designed not to burn well, but they can and do burn slowly. I have seen a smoldering mess of wires in the past that never became a fire but horribly degraded many systems.

They should have used UL94 V-0 wire, what is the flame rating of aviation cabling anyways I'm guessing they have their own standards relative to building wire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz6izV1FUow

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-18 11:56:49 and read 16390 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 234):
Yay for science it seems. The search area for the sat's being narrowed down by an order of magnitude no longer means it is almost impossible to find anymore.

Super computers, yes ?? If the plane ends up being in the Maldives then the US Sat contribution is going to be a black eye for the US & all those Anetters here that root for US perfectionism.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 11:56:54 and read 16246 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 252):
ADS-C position reports do include a variety of data, of which some are waypoints.

But a transponder has to be on, correct?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 11:57:35 and read 16291 times.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 245):
the pilots knowing the big problem tried to use a higher altitude an and depresurise the aircraft to extinguish the fire

No, this is not what the checklists call for, nor is it even logical. If they wanted to "depressurize to extinguish the fire" they could have just depressurized at FL350, they wouldn't need to climb above the service ceiling for some reason. And I've been wrong before but I cannot think of any scenario where you'd depressurize the aircraft to try and put a fire out. I'm pretty sure that wrong but I'm very very sure the whole climbing thing to depressurize is 100% wrong

I cannot explain the climb but many have used it to explain depressurization... as many have said, you could even descend lower and depressurize... cabin altitude and the aircraft's altitude are two different things. I can't think of a reason to climb to depressurize... the time of useful consciousness goes down but I don't think it affects it enough to warrant the climb. After the oxygen runs out, the pax are just as screwed at FL350 as they are at 45000', and they'd be screwed at FL230 or whatever, even if they last a few seconds/minutes longer down there

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 12:01:14 and read 15906 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 258):
Super computers, yes ?? If the plane ends up being in the Maldives then the US Sat contribution is going to be a black eye for the US & all those Anetters here that root for US perfectionism.

All ocean modeling is done on what is basically a supercomputer vs. a desktop. (All those maps we have for ocean flows comes from these models run on super computers). That being said it doesn't mean they are right. Rubber duckies provided more help for those super computer models than you might imagine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_Floatees) without verification a supercomputer run model is just that a model. So no I'm not saying super computers are perfect but any ocean modeling requires a lot of computational work. (it is just the nature of large water surface simulation)

So in my view, made in China for The First Years Inc. cheap but robust plastic toys made the day in my books.

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:03:17]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-18 12:02:06 and read 16024 times.

With regards to the Maldives sighting.

One thing I find unusual is that the report indicates that everyone saw the same thing and had the same observations: North to SouthEast, all said it had red stripes and was loud.

But we've seen from so many other investigations that first hand witnesses often have wildly varying stories, and they notice different things.

Why would these witnesses all have the same story?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: freqflyerNYC
Posted 2014-03-18 12:04:42 and read 15558 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 249):
You're thinking of another article, perhaps you should re-read this one before commenting on it. The CNN article in question specifically claims "If the autopilot was off and the airplane was essentially flying on its own, I would expect a variety of heading changes. These changes could be initiated by turbulence during flight."

You are correct in that the first part of my response was in reference to another source. But I do believe the article addresses the issue of waypoints. I am not a pilot and so may not fully understand some of the technical details being discussed. You and I may also be referring to separate aspects of the article.

I was attempting to respond to your comments about waypoints, and flying through these by 'random chance.' The paragraphs in the article I thought addressed this are:

Quote:
The airplane reportedly made "suspicious turns." However, it is the nature of those turns that will reveal if it was deliberate "heading" (directional) changes or if nobody was flying the airplane at all. If the autopilot was off and the airplane was essentially flying on its own, I would expect a variety of heading changes. These changes could be initiated by turbulence during flight.

If the airplane's routes were controlled intentionally by selecting the heading or by programming the flight management computer, the flight path would be very straight, then a turn that would last usually from 10 to 30 seconds, followed by more straight flight. While a close-up analysis of the flight path would be required to determine the case, it seems that officials are not even sure if the flight path headed northwest toward Pakistan or southwest into the vast Indian Ocean.

Perhaps I am mis-reading what was written, but my assumption was he believed the waypoint information may have ben random, or that the available information was so vague as to make an accurate assessment impossible. The article also says

Quote:
If the flight path can be shown to be very straight lines with neat turns followed by another straight line, then I would throw out the "autopilot-off" theory, but it seems as though officials can't even determine where the plane was heading, much less the nature and cause of some heading changes.

Again he seems to be saying the waypoint information isn't specific enough to say whether or not it was deliberate.

Or at least I think that's what he is saying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: pintail21
Posted 2014-03-18 12:06:07 and read 15474 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 253):
Quoting stuyyz (Reply 253):
Quoting davidzill (Reply 181):
Again with Diego Garcia, you will not land there without expressed permission from military ATC. The base is littered with strategic bombers, including the $3.5 billion B-2 bomber. It is a U.S. Military pit stop. Highly unlikely 370 landed there unnoticed.


Another crazy theory: Plane tries to land at Diego Garcia, can't identify itself (comms are off/out), gets shot down, cover-up underway....and they are trying to figure out how to shut those Maldivians up.


If you're in an emergency and you're low on fuel, why would you pass up Male and Gan Int'l Airports, plus far preferable ditching conditions in the Maledives to continue south a few hundred miles to the middle of the Indian Ocean?

Plus why cover it up? The Navy didn't cover up the Iranian aircraft they mistakenly shot down due to a radar error, and if they show the tapes where a large, unidentified aircraft without a squawk code shows up unannounced at a military field in a post 9/11 world would anyone really be able to fault them?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: rickabone
Posted 2014-03-18 12:06:33 and read 15423 times.

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 244):

So, this fire generated enough smoke to asphyxiate the passengers, but only lasted long enough to fry the communication systems without affecting the autopilot, FMS, or any other critical avionics (never mind hydraulics, fuel lines, etc.)? Talk about a 0.0000000001% probability event...

Also, wouldn't the pilots have put on their oxygen masks?

Not trying to pick a fight here -- just questioning assumptions. Please react accordingly.

It could have breached the hull and caused depressurization that also put out the fire... It might have done so before the pilots were able to get on their masks... At that altitude, you don't have much time... Especially if the hull breach was near the cockpit.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: Flighty
Posted 2014-03-18 12:11:29 and read 15248 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 262):
Why would these witnesses all have the same story?

Just keep that in mind when the AC is found, and the black box describes the true path. _Maybe_ they saw the jet. Maybe it never got closer than 800 miles from the Maldives. The point is, we will know soon enough.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-18 12:11:30 and read 16149 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue the discussion in part 35 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks and regards,

SA7700


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