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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-18 12:04:32 and read 49452 times.

Due to length part 34 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 35:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory


***********************************************************************************************


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Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 12:15:12 and read 49414 times.

From the previous thread:

Quoting rickabone (Reply 265):
At that altitude, you don't have much time

Which is why it is a memory item and why it's so easy/fast to reach down, pull on the mask, have the mask straps inflate, and it put over your head. Literally takes a second or two. Not saying they couldn't have goofed it up but I find it unlikely

The biggest problem I have with a fire is that it would have to be in the right place to disable ACARS and the transponder and depressurize the aircraft. You are not a 777 systems expert and neither am I, but I bet you the actual Boeing systems experts have already seen what was disabled and checked to see if a fire could have hit those in a logical manner.

Plus on top of that, explaining the turns would be hard. If there was no oxygen up there, I would find it hard to believe a passenger was able to hold his/her breath up there. If it was a crew member, the crew member would have known to put the masks on the pilots.

IDK, too many holes IMO. I thought about fire theories as well but like I said, if it was a plausible theory, I think the big wigs in Seattle would have better info on that and we haven't heard anything about a fire. I'm not sure if it's physically possible for a fire to make MH370 behave the way it did

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2014-03-18 12:15:28 and read 49416 times.

I think I might have missed the cutoff, so I am re-posting. I've managed to hold off posting on this thread until now...

+1 to rcair1 for the 'sanity checks'

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 238):


Some reports appearing that residents on Maldive islands reported seeing a low flying jet. White with red strips. Is there any credibility here?

Where specifically in the island chain are the reports coming from?

Could be Air India, Meridiana, Shanghai Airlines, or Sichuan Airlines which all have regular scheduled service to the Maldieves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Nasir_International_Airport

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:18:39]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 12:15:52 and read 49415 times.

I would think the most noticeable thing about the MH livery is the design on the VS.

Did any witnesses note that?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 12:18:19 and read 49197 times.

Carried over from the last thread:

Quoting hivue (Reply 254):
But not if the transponder was off, right?

Right, but the point is that ADS-C could potentially have sent up to two *future* planned waypoints *before* it was turned off. So the timeline would be something like: Someone sets waypoints for diverted route -> planned waypoints transmitted by ADS-C via ACARS -> Transponder/ACARS/UHF/SATCOM disabled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-18 12:19:14 and read 49242 times.

I'm sure this has been posted already, but I'm going to post it again:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

I've been saying electrical fire from the start. I don't subscribe to these theories of hijack and stolen planes. This makes sense to me. I think Chris Goodfellow is on point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-18 12:19:38 and read 49216 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 2):
Could be Air India, Meridiana, Shanghai Airlines, or Sichuan Airlines which all have regular scheduled service to the Maldieves.

That part of the Maldives only sees waterborne prop planes

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: sovietjet
Posted 2014-03-18 12:20:23 and read 49078 times.

If they find the plane eventually, isn't it true the CVR and FDR only record two hours? In essence the plane flew for very long and no recording or data from the initial loss of contact would be present anyway. So we still wouldn't know what really happened. Is this true?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 12:22:37 and read 48986 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 5):

That does not match with the extended flight and the waypoint turns.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 12:23:17 and read 48988 times.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 7):

DFDR is 25 hours.

CVR is 2 hours.

QAR is ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 12:24:05 and read 48857 times.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 7):
If they find the plane eventually, isn't it true the CVR and FDR only record two hours? In essence the plane flew for very long and no recording or data from the initial loss of contact would be present anyway. So we still wouldn't know what really happened. Is this true?

CVR is 2 hours, FDR is long term 25+ hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 12:24:44 and read 48929 times.

I just got back in from lunch and I must say that the news coverage on this event from CNN is sickeningly juvenile. They have apparently got their hands on the "startlingly simple fire theory" story. They even had a printed out copy of it that they were fanning in the camera's direction. They then proceeded to play "join-the-dots", and plotted a straight-ruler line from the last radar blip off the west coast of Malaysia, to.....say it with me........the Maldives.   

Because, as we all know, hear-say trumps facts anyday - and a technically malfunctioning airliner with no communications and systems knocked out will fly on a true heading straight to the Maldives......for no reason......then cross the island chain, do a 180, and fly southeast over them again, real low - you know, because that's consistent with a cockpit fire theory with a trained pilot looking for the nearest runway.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 5):
I've been saying electrical fire from the start. I don't subscribe to these theories of hijack and stolen planes. This makes sense to me. I think Chris Goodfellow is on point.

No. Just.....no.

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:25:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-18 12:24:58 and read 48869 times.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 7):
If they find the plane eventually, isn't it true the CVR and FDR only record two hours?

The FDR records much longer. It will have the entire flight, if it was not disabled. The CVR in the accident aircraft, according to reports, only records the last 2 hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 12:27:15 and read 48750 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 12):
The FDR records much longer. It will have the entire flight, if it was not disabled. The CVR in the accident aircraft, according to reports, only records the last 2 hours.

There are also FDR/CVRs with recorder independent power (RIP) but I'm not sure how many planes are equipped in such a fashion. (It only lasts ~10 minutes on loss of recorder power but that at least would help tell if it was deliberate or not)

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:27:51]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-18 12:27:41 and read 48750 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 3):


With regards to the Maldives sighting.

One thing I find unusual is that the report indicates that everyone saw the same thing and had the same observations: North to SouthEast, all said it had red stripes and was loud.

But we've seen from so many other investigations that first hand witnesses often have wildly varying stories, and they notice different things.

Why would these witnesses all have the same story?


Well I think it's because they read about/heard about before saying what it looked like,
especially when it's over a week since the disappearance.

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:29:05]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: stuyyz
Posted 2014-03-18 12:27:58 and read 48805 times.

Quoting pintail21 (Reply 264):
Quoting stuyyz (Reply 253):
Quoting stuyyz (Reply 253):
Quoting davidzill (Reply 181):
Again with Diego Garcia, you will not land there without expressed permission from military ATC. The base is littered with strategic bombers, including the $3.5 billion B-2 bomber. It is a U.S. Military pit stop. Highly unlikely 370 landed there unnoticed.


Another crazy theory: Plane tries to land at Diego Garcia, can't identify itself (comms are off/out), gets shot down, cover-up underway....and they are trying to figure out how to shut those Maldivians up.

If you're in an emergency and you're low on fuel, why would you pass up Male and Gan Int'l Airports, plus far preferable ditching conditions in the Maledives to continue south a few hundred miles to the middle of the Indian Ocean?

Plus why cover it up? The Navy didn't cover up the Iranian aircraft they mistakenly shot down due to a radar error, and if they show the tapes where a large, unidentified aircraft without a squawk code shows up unannounced at a military field in a post 9/11 world would anyone really be able to fault them?

The pilot had Diego Garcia as one of his top 5 landing strips in his simulator, so for whatever reason he was aiming for this airport.
Coverup: It may all come down to the base commander or even the missile operator who is covering it up, and not telling his senior officer. Who knows...its a longshot theory in the first place.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-18 12:29:44 and read 48663 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 11):
. . . with a trained pilot looking for the nearest runway.

. . . with a trained pilot searching for that landing strip that exists in his flight simulator but not in reality.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jox
Posted 2014-03-18 12:31:53 and read 48547 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 2):
Where specifically in the island chain are the reports coming from?

I got this place from some of the linked postings:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=Kudahuvadhoo&ll=2.672313,72.874031&t=h&z=13

It seems like an extremely small and rather isolated place, so that might explain why it took a while for the message to reach out. It is likely that the fishermen (or whatever they might be) that live there hadn't heard about the missing 777 so they didn't see the need to urgently report the sighting.

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:35:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: sovietjet
Posted 2014-03-18 12:34:52 and read 48256 times.

OK so CVR is 2 hours, I think then we will never find out what triggered everything. If suicide is the reason, then it's logical he flew for so many hours so that all evidence of it is erased.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 12:35:17 and read 48278 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 11):
They have apparently got their hands on the "startlingly simple fire theory" story.

And as I've said before, I think the guys at Boeing would have mentioned this days ago if there was a fire that could have more or less replicated what MH370 did. That is barring any crazy conspiracy theory or Boeing being silent while they connect the dots.

Just from what little we know, I'm not sure if a single fire could explain what happened. There is usually one or two holes that need something completely crazy/nonsensical to happen

Another note people should know--pilots are trained to react to things certain ways. I'm not saying pilots never deviate from procedures but I'm 99.999% sure the 777's fire from an unknown origin (or any checklist for that matter) does not involve the pilots climbing to 45000' to de-pressurize to put the fire out*. Now what if the pilots didn't use the checklist and instead thought of that brilliant idea by themselves? That just doesn't happen. Deviations happen but I seriously doubt they'd do that climb/depressurize maneuver

If you know the procedures and checklists for MH and the 777, you can more or less guess what they would have done if X, Y, or Z happened and they followed the checklists

*heard this 'theory' in the previous thread

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-18 12:35:26 and read 48278 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 15):
The pilot had Diego Garcia as one of his top 5 landing strips in his simulator, so for whatever reason he was aiming for this airport.

I'm not all that sure if that's really the case. As far as I know there's nothing that would log "top airport" in Microsoft Flight Simulator X. It has a flight log though.

I think they just concluded that all those airports mentioned in the news article are included in the simulator (as they are there by default), but maybe the captain actually never even landed into any of them in the sim.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 15):
Plus why cover it up? The Navy didn't cover up the Iranian aircraft they mistakenly shot down due to a radar error, and if they show the tapes where a large, unidentified aircraft without a squawk code shows up unannounced at a military field in a post 9/11 world would anyone really be able to fault them?

If the first thing they would do when an unidentified large aircraft appears in peace time near their airport is shooting it down they should seriously seek some help from mental health professionals. There's absolutely no need why someone would want to commit a terrorist attack using an airliner on a military island located in middle of nothing.

Obviously they would shoot it down only after identification if it didn't follow their orders & performed maneuvers that would suggest it was planning to fly into their base. I would imagine Diego Garcia has rather good radars that would make them detect the aircraft way before it was anywhere near them.

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:42:47]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-18 12:37:53 and read 48148 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 11):
No. Just.....no.

I read your reply in the previous thread. I don't think Goodfellow has a 100% perfect analysis but it's in line with my thinking. There is a ton of conflicting data and we just don't know enough yet. So it's all speculation. But, in time, we'll see.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 12:38:31 and read 48004 times.

Quoting jox (Reply 17):
I got this place from some of the linked postings:
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Kudahuvadhoo&ll=2.672313,72.874031&spn=0.164959,0.196552&t=h&hnear=Kudahuvadhoo&z=13

It seems like an extremely small and rather isolated place, so that might explain why it took a while for the message to reach out. It is likely that the fishermen (or whatever they might be) that live there hadn't heard about the missing 777 so they didn't see the need to urgently report the sighting.

I dunno Maldives looks like a pretty nice resort destination (http://roomsvillas.angsana.com/maldives_velavaru/Reservations/Rooms/Beachfront-Villa) and hotels (Complimentary Wifi) around the area and likely many homes have internet access. (via, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhiraagu and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raajj%C3%A9_Online

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:39:02]

Edit, more specifically the entire island chain has internet and cell access it seems. http://www.maldivesclub.ru/sites/all/files/dhiraagu_coverage_map.jpg


[Edited 2014-03-18 12:46:00]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 4holer
Posted 2014-03-18 12:39:52 and read 48015 times.

With regards to the altitude changes, is it possible that if those altitudes are accurate, that the changes were the result of "porpoising" as in the Payne Stewart flight?
(link from result of googling payne stewart flight porpoising)

http://emperors-clothes.com/9-11backups/abclearjet.htm

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 12:42:53 and read 47723 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 4):
Right, but the point is that ADS-C could potentially have sent up to two *future* planned waypoints *before* it was turned off. So the timeline would be something like: Someone sets waypoints for diverted route -> planned waypoints transmitted by ADS-C via ACARS -> Transponder/ACARS/UHF/SATCOM disabled.

I understand that, but what I'm saying is ADS-whatever goes out by transponder, not ACARS, right? Just trying to understand how the system works. I still think the whole FMS was programmed thing stems from they're seeing the plane overfly standard waypoints on primary radar, not they're seeing future waypoints radioed in.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 12:43:00 and read 48824 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 23):

No, because there was only one such excursion, iirc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jox
Posted 2014-03-18 12:44:58 and read 49153 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 22):
I dunno Maldives looks like a pretty nice resort destination (http://roomsvillas.angsana.com/maldives_velavaru/Reservations/Rooms/Beachfront-Villa) and hotels (Complimentary Wifi) around the area and likely many homes have internet access. (via, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhiraagu and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raajj%C...nline

The whole atoll has some 6700 inhabitants on 56 islands where 11 is unhabitated. Not nesseceary that the sighting was done from where the resorts (if there are any) are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhaalu_Atoll

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-18 12:45:17 and read 51717 times.

According to Jim Sciutto, CNN, there was nothing suspicious about the FlightSimulator.
http://twitter.com/jimsciutto/statuses/445993005481472002

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:45:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-18 12:46:04 and read 51217 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 23):
porpoising

Phugoid cycle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phugoid

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: dandelany
Posted 2014-03-18 12:47:21 and read 51126 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 24):
I understand that, but what I'm saying is ADS-whatever goes out by transponder, not ACARS, right?

According to the ADS wikipedia page:

Quote:
ADS-A [also known as ADS-C] reports are employed in the Future Air Navigation System (FANS) using the Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) as the communication protocol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...c_dependent_surveillance-broadcast

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2014-03-18 12:47:26 and read 51515 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 11):
Because, as we all know, hear-say trumps facts anyday - and a technically malfunctioning airliner with no communications and systems knocked out will fly on a true heading straight to the Maldives......for no reason......then cross the island chain, do a 180, and fly southeast over them again, real low - you know, because that's consistent with a cockpit fire theory with a trained pilot looking for the nearest runway.

What IF one of the pilots, unconscious for hours, regained conciousness, found out all comms destroyed, and flew deap over the Island he became aware of to get noticed, hoping he can still reach Diego Garcia or get the RAF there alamed?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 20):
I think they just concluded that all those airports mentioned in the news article are included in the simulator (as they are there by default), but maybe the captain actually never even landed into any of them in the sim.

I did not visit many Airports in FSX, but Diego Garcia is an airport I know many visit because it is so remote.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 12:47:30 and read 51189 times.

Quoting jox (Reply 26):
The whole atoll has some 6700 inhabitants on 56 islands where 11 is unhabitated. Not nesseceary that the sighting was done from where the resorts (if there are any) are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhaalu_Atoll

More specifically, sorry also edited into the last post but there is coverage across the entire island chain it seems. They have fiber optic cabling to the island to the mainland in addition to fiber optic lines between chains with 3.5G coverage across the islands. Even the remote areas have coverage as some hotels are in remote areas.

Edit, figured out image uploader


[Edited 2014-03-18 12:50:50]

Another edit, also note how this map was dated in 2006 in the years of development and with fiber to the home available in major islands I'm sure they have even better wireless coverage and landline service in 2014.


[Edited 2014-03-18 12:54:11]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2014-03-18 12:49:14 and read 51147 times.

Quoting jox (Reply 17):
I got this place from some of the linked postings:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=Kudahuvadhoo&ll=2.672313,72.874031&t=h&z=13

Thanks. Plotting a course between SABDI and ELKEL puts the flight path DIRECTLY ABOVE that atoll. Playing around with Skyvector instead of doing schoolwork.....

I don't think I've seen this discussed very much, but have people taken in consideration fuel consumption? The altitude changes over the Thai peninsula/Malacca Straight would be extremely fuel intensive (especially since the airplane was still heavy) and further terrain following/possible dips to lower altitudes to avoid radar coverage would increase fuel consumption drastically.

I think this alone gets rid of the flying all the way to Iran theory, much less the Middle East or Somalia for that matter.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: imatams
Posted 2014-03-18 12:49:55 and read 51077 times.

Quoting jox (Reply 17):
It seems like an extremely small and rather isolated place, so that might explain why it took a while for the message to reach out. It is likely that the fishermen (or whatever they might be) that live there hadn't heard about the missing 777 so they didn't see the need to urgently report the sighting.

The Maldives are a prime international tourist destination, with countless luxury hotels and a well developed tourism infrastructure. This particar little Island seems (from Google Earth) to be a fairly well-developed place not too far from Male. The locals would have found out as soon as the rest of the world did, I presume.

And, as mentioned above, all witnesses corroberating on specific details of an event that would have lasted only seconds is not really how things usually are,

Sounds fishy to me, someone wants a bit of world publicity?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 12:55:20 and read 50394 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 24):
I understand that, but what I'm saying is ADS-whatever goes out by transponder, not ACARS, right? Just trying to understand how the system works. I still think the whole FMS was programmed thing stems from they're seeing the plane overfly standard waypoints on primary radar, not they're seeing future waypoints radioed in.

Based on the quotes in the previous thread:

ADS-B goes through the transponder and is inactivated when the transponder is off.

ADS-C uses ACARS protocol and goes through HF, VHF or SATCOM. It is inactivated if all the ACARS communication paths are inactivated.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Vimanav
Posted 2014-03-18 12:58:05 and read 50305 times.

The Maldivian sighting, I think is a red herring. It could well be an aircraft taking off from Gan International Airport which is about 340kms South of Kudahuvadhoo where the claimed sighting took place. Gan sees quite a few international charters.

brgds//Vimanav

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: boacvc10
Posted 2014-03-18 13:01:47 and read 49806 times.

Quoting imatams (Reply 33):
Sounds fishy to me, someone wants a bit of world publicity?

where is kudahvuadhoo in relation to the any flight path possibilities? I ask as a hypothetical, in other reports one of the practice airports determined to be present on the Pilots flight sim system, was [url=http://minivannews.com/society/kudahuvadhoo-islanders-spotted-low-lying-mystery-aircraft-in-hours-after-mh370-disappearance-80268[/url] ? If so, would a crippled aircraft have to maintain a straight flight path to reach there, and could they have continued to an impact in the ocean?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-18 13:04:23 and read 49535 times.

The Maldives are a long island chain. The island in question is south of the capital and main airport at Male.

It may be nothing but I suppose it's worth checking up on.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 13:04:24 and read 49716 times.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 30):
What IF one of the pilots, unconscious for hours, regained conciousness, found out all comms destroyed, and flew deap over the Island he became aware of to get noticed, hoping he can still reach Diego Garcia or get the RAF there alamed?

No, because any pilot worth his salt would not intentionally fly a crippled aircraft that could drop from the sky any second over a populated island, putting countless thousands of lives at risk. That is an absolutely preposterous idea, not to mention the question of how on earth the plane made it clear across the Indian Ocean to the Maldives in the first place.

Highly unlikely. The whole Maldives hear-say story is more than likely just happenstance. Some folks over there heard of the story of MH370, saw they were on a rule-straight direct path from the last known radar contact blip, and seemed to recall last Sunday morning that they heard a big noise/saw a big plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 13:14:43 and read 48467 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 34):

The Maldives are a long island chain. The island in question is south of the capital and main airport at Male.

It may be nothing but I suppose it's worth checking up on.

Considering it is a long and popular island chain with internet and cellphone coverage across almost every area (remote or not) with fiber optic lines connecting each part of the chain and to the world as well. I'm not sure it is that worth checking on as they presumably also have their own local ATC radar (primary/secondary) with a major airport and many international flights and many smaller ones connecting the chain together. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_the_Maldives )

[Edited 2014-03-18 13:16:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 4holer
Posted 2014-03-18 13:19:40 and read 48082 times.

If the suspected plane above the Maldives was low enough and if any passengers had left their cell phone on, assuming there is cellular coverage in the islands, would it have been likely to have gotten a signal?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: imatams
Posted 2014-03-18 13:20:02 and read 47969 times.

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 36):

Hmm

Still find that story as unlikely as before, but I must in fairness say that if you continue the direct flight path from last known position just south of IGARI to VAMPI across the Indian Ocean you do end up.. well.. at that precise little Island in the Maldives...

Probably a coincidence, and the flight path of the aircraft as reported was in another direction altogether. But it IS a weird coincidence..

edit: spelling error

[Edited 2014-03-18 13:21:40]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 13:22:43 and read 47543 times.

Quoting dandelany (Reply 29):
According to the ADS wikipedia page:
Quoting Finn350 (Reply 34):
Based on the quotes in the previous thread:

Thanks. Sorry but somehow I missed that.

So if the FMS-was-reprogrammed theory is based on future waypoints sent via ACARS (as opposed to them just inferring it from primary radar) then whoever put the new waypoints in did it prior to disabling ACARS. Not a good way to cover your tracks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-18 13:23:27 and read 47640 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 32):
Thanks. Plotting a course between SABDI and ELKEL puts the flight path DIRECTLY ABOVE that atoll. Playing around with Skyvector instead of doing schoolwork.....

I don't think I've seen this discussed very much, but have people taken in consideration fuel consumption? The altitude changes over the Thai peninsula/Malacca Straight would be extremely fuel intensive (especially since the airplane was still heavy) and further terrain following/possible dips to lower altitudes to avoid radar coverage would increase fuel consumption drastically.

I think this alone gets rid of the flying all the way to Iran theory, much less the Middle East or Somalia for that matter.

If the SATCOM pings haven't been debunked and if one assumes the engines were still running during the last ping at 0811h then doesn't that imply normal--or at least not excessive--fuel consumption?

That being said, I'd love also to find a way to get rid of the flying to Iran theory because it seems so preposterous.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 13:24:53 and read 47344 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 40):

If the suspected plane above the Maldives was low enough and if any passengers had left their cell phone on, assuming there is cellular coverage in the islands, would it have been likely to have gotten a signal?

There is basically total cellphone coverage on all the islands. It is a popular tourist destination with a lot of infrastructure and remote resorts with connectivity and multiple providers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2014-03-18 13:27:26 and read 47220 times.

kudahvuadhoo


Possible FMS routes that include this sighting over the Maldieves I have two destinations in mind: the Seychelles or Socotra (Yemen)

Route 1 (Socotra): IGARI - DAKOV - IGREX - RULKA - RUXER - SABDI - ELKEL - OYSQ
3362.5 nm (a stretch)
Possible motive: AQIAP Hijack


Route 2 (Seychelles): IGARI - DAKOV - IGREX - RULKA - RUXER - SABDI - ELKEL - FSIA
Possible motive: Criminal/political refuge (a la Ethiopian 961)
3154 nm (still a stretch but closer)


[Edited 2014-03-18 13:37:58]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Leeloo
Posted 2014-03-18 13:31:15 and read 46661 times.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 7):
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 7):
If they find the plane eventually, isn't it true the CVR and FDR only record two hours? In essence the plane flew for very long and no recording or data from the initial loss of contact would be present anyway. So we still wouldn't know what really happened. Is this true?

Even though it might just be the two last hours i think that would be enough to figure out what was going on... maybe not the whole story from the beginning of course but at least it would give a very good clue who was in cockpit, their intentions etc etc..

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 13:32:45 and read 46523 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 45):

Ok ignoring flying over a populated island being a bad idea for staying hidden, those paths all contradict the known and external data provided by inmarsat and would have resulted in very different estimates as they would have flown right under IOR and right into AOR-E coverage by the time the last ping occurred.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2014-03-18 13:36:24 and read 46052 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 47):

I totally agree. I was going on the premise of IF the sightings turned out to accurate.

I personally believe that the airplane is in the Southern Indian Ocean off Australia.

Has Australia taken another look at its OTH radar data since the new focused search area?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 13:37:13 and read 46832 times.


Sanity Check - 3/18/2014 19:00Z
There is (will be) a link to this post in my profile under "homepage"

3/18/2014 19:00Z update since last Sanity Check.
The facts have not changed much. The a/c has not been found.
I've tried to be as factually accurate as I can - but I'm not an expert in each system - so if there factual errors please advise.
Updated/corrected section on Way-points and Navigation including ADS-C discussion
Added brief about 'new' sighting reported in Maldives.
Added "Fire Theory" section (was Lithium Batteries and fire).
In previous version: Update section on discussion of oxygen and pressurization.
In previous version: Added short section on inducing hypoxia in passengers.


First a synopsis (dropped some old 'breaking news' items)
The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
The last ACARS transmission was 01:07 local.
The last comms were "All right, good night" transmitted to Malaysia ant hand-off to Vietnam control. Vietnam was not contacted. It has been reported it was the First Officer's voice.
NOTE: Saying "good night" or "so long" or "see you" is very common for hand-offs.
The transponder stopped transmitting at 1:21 - loss of secondary radar.
There are reports of a climb to 45K, uneven descent and some changes in altitude. Since this is based on primary radar - altitude data is somewhat uncertain. The last has been reported as 29,500ft but that seems in dispute.
There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Strait and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does NOT identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370
See further information on oxygen and hypoxia below
SATCOM system pings continued for 7+ (last ping at 08:11 local) hrs after LOS (loss of signal)
SATCOM pings do not locate the aircraft but based on correlation to signal strength there are two loci that indication aircraft distance from the Satellite.
These are not paths and I have changed my language to reflect that. They represent a distance from the satellite.
Loci one is north over Andaman Sea, Bay of Bengal as far as Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and is consistent with primary radar.
Loci two is south over the India Ocean west of Australia. We've had no reports of radar signals in that area.
The last SATCOM ping was at 8:11 am Malaysian time. At that time it would be dark on the north radius and light over the south radius.
Best data I have is SATCOM pings are hourly - so the 8:11 ping could be up to 1 hour before the aircraft stopped 'pinging'.
We have no ELT signal detected.
While authorities (Malaysian) have not confirmed this is a hijacking or purposeful event - it is believed that is highly likely by most, however, motivation is unknown.
Debris reported by Greek oil tanker has already been reported as not relevant.
Recent reports attributed to the FBI that the plane 'could have landed' and sent a satellite signal from the ground appear to be just confirming what we already knew - that the SATCOM pings could come from an a/c in flight, or powered up on the ground..
There have been no reports that a Rolls Royce EH report was sent upon landing.
UPDATE: There have been recent reports that the course changes were programed, not flown See ACARS and FMS below.
Recent report from the Maldives (island Kuda Huvadhoo) of a low flying aircraft at 6:15am on the 8th. Not confirmed/debunked.

Time-line (from CNN)
1.07 am - Last ACARS transmission.
1.19 am - Last verbal communication "All right, good night" from the plane; believed to be the co-pilot
1.21 am - Transponder stopped transmitting (turned off or failed)
1.30 am - Civilian (primary) radar lost contact
1.37 am - Expected ACARS transmission; not received
2.15 am - Last military primary radar contact
8.11 am - Last (hourly) satellite handshake

Maldives Report (broke 3/18). If confirmed/debunked I will update accordingly.
Today it was reported an aircraft was seen flying low over the Maldives Island of Kuda Havadhoo
The aircraft was described as White with Red - could be consistent with MH370.
The aircraft was reported as very low - very loud - so engines running.
Time of report 6:15am Local which is 9:15 Malaysian and just over 1 hour after last SATCOM ping.
This location - south of India - is within the range of MH370.
This location is not consistent with SATCOM data so requires discounting that. You cannot fly from the last ping to the Maldives in 1 hr.
Not Confirmed.

ACARS
ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, including navigation, operations, maintenance, etc to ATC and maintenance facilities.
ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight.
ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.
ACARS communicates via VHF, HF or SATCOM. The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.
ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM, HF or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
Reports that ACARS was disabled before the LOS event were incorrect. The last ACARS transmission was at 1:07. The next was expected at 1:37 and was not received. This means ACARS communication was disabled between those times. This could be action by the flight-deck crew or system failure.
UPDATE: ACARS can be used to send navigation information from ATC to the aircraft and vise versa.
This later fact is causing confusion that I've been unable to rectify as yet. See ACARS and FMS Communications below.

ACARS data from MH370
The ACARS system sent 2 engine health reports to Rolls Royce, both prior to the LOS event.
The Rolls Royce page indicates that a 'snapshot' of engine data would be sent at: takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. We know 2 ACARS Engine Health reports were received, so that would be consistent with the 1st two.
The last engine health report was received at 1:07am. The next was expected at 1:37 am and was not received. This indicates that the transmission of ACARS data was disabled between 1:07 and 1:37, but not when during that period.
The Engine Health report received prior to LOS had 'interesting' altitude data/fluctuations including 40K drop in a minute. That data is suspect.
Since no "landing" report was received, then either the ACARS communication was disabled, or the a/c did not land.
We have not heard if ACARS would send a report upon fuel starvation flame-out.

UPDATE: ADS-C, ACARS and FMS (Flight Management System) Communications relevant to the WAY-POINTS
Thanks to some good help by a.net members (hivue, dandelany, Finn350, speedbird128) I've clarify this section with limited success - specifically re: capabilities of ADS(transponder)
-----------------
Recent reports in the NYT imply that we 'know' that the turns made by MH370 were the result of programed heading (way-point) changes in the FMS, not hand flying.
I believe this is another case of speculation being taken as fact but I may be wrong. Basis for that belief follows - rcair1.
The NYT reports use inconsistent language. Specifically the article says:
- "was most likely programmed by someone in the plane’s cockpit" (emphasis added)
Followed by:
- "Instead of manually operating the plane’s controls, whoever altered Flight 370’s path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee-high pedestal between the captain and the first officer, according to officials." This is stated as a fact
To make it worse - the article also says:
-"It is not clear whether the plane’s path was reprogrammed before or after it took off."
But then it says.
-"Flight 370’s Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official."
-----------------
UPDATED Attempted analysis (by rcair1):
The article is full of inconsistencies - which is red flag for speculation to me.
I believe the sentence "It is not clear whether..." is key. If they do not know if the re-programing was done before or after takeoff,Then this is speculation, not fact.
In addition - the "reported its status to the ACARS, which ..." quote is suspect.
Why?: If we had data proving the FMS was reprogrammed - that data would have to come from the aircraft via some communication channel.
There are 2 or 3 channels that could be used: ADS-C over ACARS, ADC-C over transponder?, Gatelink?
Warning: my understanding of ADS-C is very much "evolving"
ADS-C (contract) (a.k.a. ADS-A) can send route data to ATC.
The "Contract" part of this means the ATC Center must initiate a "contract" or agreement with the a/c to get this data. (the A/C cannot initiate the contract)
One contract can be a way-point event - and that will include the Latitude, Longitude, ETA and Altitude for the next 2 way-points.
If this ADS-C contract existed and way-points were reached, or new ones programed, that information would be transmitted and we would know precisely when it was changed. .
ADS-C information can be sent by ACARS - but it would not be part of the Rolls Royce EH data. Again - we would know precisely when.
The "It is not clear whether... before or after it took off." statement is inconsistent with ADS-C mode transmission either by transponder or ACARS.
Hence: It is speculation that the way-points were programmed BTW - I think it is likely to have happened, but that does not mean I know it.
Additional points:
Question for experts in 777 FMS Navigation
While I believe that the FMS (LNAV) can manage way-point transitions, I don't know if it manages altitude with way-points or not.
We saw a/c change altitude - how would this be programmed? Could changes be 'between' way-points?
The LNAV is part of the autopilot. If the a/c climbed to 45K and stalled, then recovered at 23K, I believe the autopilot would disengage at the stall.

Way-point Tracks
The use of way-points to the navigate are conjecture. They happen to line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just coincidentally along the path.
A 777 can be programed to follow a series of way-point automatically - this is normal operating procedure and a 777 pilot would need no extra practice/training to do it. (Relevant to pilot flight simulator ownership)

SATCOM
SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.
SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.
The SATCOM system on MH370 was connecting to Inmarsat 3 satellites. In the area covered, the only satellite with coverage is IOR.
Big version: Width: 720 Height: 516 File size: 199kb
Since only 1 satellite has coverage, no triangulation is possible. All that can be determined is distance from the satellite. This has been used to define 2 potential loci were the a/c could have been.
North Corridor
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 114kb
.
South Corridor
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 71kb
We do not know if these corridors are defined by the last SATCOM ping, or multiple pings.
We cannot distinguish if the a/c was flying or parked on the ground (powered up) when these pings were sent.
We have not been told how the distance from IOR was estimated - it could be signal strength or time of flight (signal propagation time).Opinion: as an EE I think signal strength is unlikely - it would depend on things such as a/c orientation. Time of flight - which is how GPS works - seems more likely - however others have pointed out this requires precise timing.
NOTE: While these may appear as paths - they are not. They are simply a set of potential locations based upon ping data. The aircraft could have been in a constant standard turn circle somewhere along one of the loci (red lines) and the satellite could not tell. We only know it was somewhere along those lines.

SATCOM Pings
The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites (hourly). These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here."
SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel. They are akin to registration pings on a cell system.
The last pings were detected at 8:11am Malaysia time. This does not mean the aircraft went down or landed at this time, only that the last ping was 8:11. Source I've seen indicate the pings are hourly - but that is not confirmed.
SATCOM pings provide no aircraft heading, speed or altitude information, however, distance from the Satellite can be estimated, and ONLY distance.
Based on analysis of the SATCOM pings by Inmarsat, two possible corridors have been predicted based upon a radius from the satellite picking up the pings.
SATCOM pings would be sent as long as the system (aircraft) was power up and withing coverage area. So, on the ground, if powered up (thanks to mandala499).
People have asked if SATCOM pings could come from a crashed plane if the right parts survived.
Very unlikely. The system is not self contained, the equipment, power and antennas are separate.
Recent news about the fact that the plane could have landed really appears to be just a restatement of known data.
Specifically - the SATCOM pings could have been sent from an aircraft powered, but landed - or from an aircraft in flight.
Clarification: The key is the system is powered, whether by engines, apu or shore line (on the ground).
Again: These pings to not contain ANY data about the aircraft position, speed, altitude, etc.
The 'location' data inferred from the SATCOM pings is based analysis of those signals which gives an approximate distance from the satellite to the a/c.
Since the satellite is in geosynchronous orbit (~22,000 miles), the difference in distance between a flying aircraft and one on the ground is probably not measurable.

Fire Theory (Was Cargo and Lithium Batteries)
OPINION: I've tended to discount this based on my belief as a FF that the a/c could not continue to fly for 7+ hours. However, recent discussions have caused me to re-evaluate that.
Regarding the fire source:
One hypothesis that has been presented is that a fire broke out incapacitated the crew/passengers or caused hypoxia that did so.
(See http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/opinio...er-malaysia-flight-370/)
The hypothesis is:
A fire broke out causing the crew to disable multiple systems (or disabled them itself)
The crew was successful in containing/extinguishing the fire - but then was disable due to smoke and/or hypoxia.
The a/c, not on autopilot, continued to fly till fuel starvation occurred.
Key to this theory is that the aircraft, not on autopilot and not controlled, could remain in stable flight.
For most a/c- this would not be possible. But for the 777 it may - provided the flight control systems did not revert to a degraded state.
Specifically - the 777 will self trim (pitch up/down) to maintain speed. As long as these pitch up/down excursions did not cause stall (too high) or CFIT (crash), the a/c could fly.
The 777 also has bank protections - so banks induced by trim/turbulence would be damped and unlike a non FBW plane that may spiral in - the 777 could conceivable continue flying.
This is by no means proven or accepted, but it seems credible considering the advanced flight controls of an aircraft like the 777 as compared to a non-FBW aircraft.
This does not explain any purposeful heading changes except perhaps the first one which could be a turn to return to safety by the crew.
Other turns that appear to be FMS driven would be just happenstance.
It would be very interesting to hear Boeing's take on this - or to experiment with a 777.
There are reports that the cargo in MH370 did not receive normal X-ray screening (though this has recently been weakly denied)
There are reports of a shipment of lithium batteries on the a/c and that perhaps they caused a fire.
The hold of a passenger a/c like the 777 is protected with Halon and detectors - so a fire in the hold would be detected.
Therefore some think a fire could have occurred and been suppressed. This does not directly explain loss of comms.

Hypoxia and Pressurization
There has been lots of speculation about loss of pressurization in the aircraft and what that would do to passengers and crew.
IMPORTANT NOTE: all of this applies to cabin pressure - not the pressure outside.Just climbing to 45K would not exposed the passengers to that altitude - the aircraft would have to be depressurized.
In the case of loss of cabin pressure - O2 mask would deploy automatically.
The pilots cannot disable this above 13,500 feet - they can release the masks.
Passengers masks would last 12-20 minutes. Portable crew (FA) bottles ~30minutes. Cockpit crew longer.
Time of useful consciousness (not to loss of consciousness) will range from 1-3 minutes at 30K to 9-15 seconds at 43K. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)
above 40,000 ft cabin altitude - positive pressure oxygen is required - passenger masks do not do this and would not be effective.
Because of this the a/c must be certified able to descend and pilots demonstrate an emergency descent to ~10,000 ft in 2 minutes.
The actual regulation is that passengers cannot be exposed to a cabin altitude of more than 25K for more than 2 minutes, or more than 40K for any time. (A380 got an exception to this rule.)

Cabin depressurization by Pilots (this is not as solid as I would like in terms of facts).
NOTE: Above 40K passenger masks are ineffective - positive pressure O2 is required.
Question: Can the pilots 'depressurize' the plane?
The FAA regulations state the a/c "must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to cabin pressure altitudes in excess of 15,000 feet (4,600 m) after any probable failure condition in the pressurization system"
So for normal 'failures' - no, the cabin will remain below 15K.
However, per member mandala499 the pilots could: 1) Open outflow valves, 2) turn off bleed air. The cabin would then depressurize to current altitude.
I have no data on how quickly this would happen - but I think it would take minutes at least.
Let's investigate the sequence required and how that is related to the reported "climb to 45K":
1) Pilots (or whomever is in control) switches to manual pressurization, turns off bleed, opens outflow valves.
2) Cabin altitude climbs above 13,500 and passenger masks deploy - there is no way to prevent that. At that point passengers and cabin crew know.
3) Presuming the pilots do not descent - passengers O2 will last 12-20 minutes. After that, depending on the cabin altitude they will loose effective consciousness (not loose consciousness, but effective consciousness).
4) Cabin crew O2 will run out.
5) During this time, the flight crew O2 will operate and I believe it lasts longer.
6) At some point - depending on cabin altitude - those not on O2 will die (no other way to say it).

The question becomes - how long would this sequence take?
Below 40K cabin altitude - and once the cabin is depressurized- minimum 12-30 minutes for all passengers and cabin crew to become disabled. (I believe the flight deck crew has positive pressure O2 but I'm not sure.)
Above 40K cabin altitude - I do not know - w/o positive pressure oxygen people will loose effective consciousness in seconds.
With O2, but not positive pressure - will this be extended?
If you descend below 40K with non positive pressure O2 masks still operating - will people recover?
Summary:
It appears flight crew (or knowledgeable hijackers) could depressurize the cabin and disable all.
O2 masks would deploy so passengers and cabin crew would know.
This would not be an instantaneous procedure - the biggest factor is how long would it take to depressurize the a/c.

CRV/FDR Data
The CVR (cockpit voice recorder) and FDR (flight data recorder) do not transmit data in flight.
They do emit sonic pings if immersed. These will last a minimum of 30 days. We can expect sonar is being used to listen for them.
The pinger operates at 37.5KHz 106.5dp re 1μPa. (thanks k83713)
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Normal Conditions: 1-2km
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Good Conditions: 4-5km
Localising a pinger from the surface in shallow water is relatively easy, as described above. In deep water, the detection equipment should be installed on a self-propelled underwater vehicle, presupposing that the position is already known to within the maximum 2-3km detection range.
More Info:http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html
The CVR reportedly is a 120 minute CVR so it would contain only the last 120 minutes of flight (presuming it did not fail or was turned off prior to that).
I don't have data form the recording time of the FDR, but it is typically much longer.

ELT
The ELT, or emergency locater transmitter is mounted in the rear of the aircraft - difficult to access in flight.
The ELT is battery powered - independent built in power source. It is this source that is suspect in causing the 787 fire at Heathrow.
The ELT will be trigged by G forces in a crash. It will not operate under water.
The ELT can be triggered from the cockpit - it is a hardwired switch not dependent on computer systems.
The ELT transmits on the guard frequency (VHF) and on 406MHz to satellites. If it had been triggered (above water), satellites would have heard it and been able to locate the a/c.

Primary versus Secondary Radar (brief tutorial)
Primary radar is based on the original military usage. It sends out a strong (KW to MW) signal and looks for a reflection from something.
Primary radar provides distance and location. Comparing returns speed can be determined. Strength of return can indicate size.
Stealth a/c and ships are designed to absorb or miss-direct the reflection so primary radar cannot see them.
Primary radar does not depend on the transponder, so turning off a transponder will not make an a/c disappear from primary.
Primary radar is less prevalent than secondary - and more typically military tho ATC's do use it.
Secondary Radar is really not Radar in the defined sense. It is directional communication.
In secondary radar a directional signal is sent out (much less powerful than primary). Any a/c with a transponder that receives it will respond (the transponder responds) with information about the aircraft.
Combined with the direction of the outgoing beam, the time of flight information and returned information, the a/c location and identity (and other info depending on the mode) is returned.
Secondary radar is the primary method used by ATC.
If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar will not see the a/c.
In the case of MH370
The transponder was turned off - so the a/c disappeared from secondary (ATC) radar.
A target was tracked west, then northwest using primary radar. That target was correlated with SATCOM pings help determine it was MH370.

Airworthiness Directive
The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna

Aircraft Type and Fuel State
The aircraft was a Boeing 777-200ER. MTOW 656,000 lbs, 301 3 class passengers (standard Boeing Config - does not reflect MH specific config.)
The aircraft could land in 6000 ft, or much less at high risk. As little as 3000ft has been stated, but it could not take off from there.
The aircraft would need a hard surface to land - this is heavier that has been done on steel matts.
It is reported the aircraft 45 to 60 minutes extra fuel. This would amount to about 7-7.5 hrs of fuel. This is a normal amount for this route.
The aircraft should have been able to fly about 30 minutes after the last SATCOM ping at 8:11.
The figure at this link show max range for the 777-200ER. NOTE: MH370 was not fueled for this range. http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com.../777_range_singapore.pdf


Search Areas (including those that have be halted)
Along the planed route. I believe searching in this area is ending or decreasing based on new data indicating the a/c is not there
West over the Malacca strait
North west of Malacca strait
Along the two loci predicted by the SATCOM pings which continue north to Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and south to the India Ocean.
These are huge search areas - I do not have a good handle on what assets are deployed where
It appears the north loci is considered more likely because of primary radar signals that roughly correlate.
I would expect review of primary radar west of Australia is in process if not done.

Mobile phones
We continue to have lots of discussion on "mobile phones" - can the connect in flight, etc.
We don't have any reports or evidence of that any passenger or crew mobile phone has registered with any network.
Until we have that data or reports - I believe the mobile phone discussions are not getting us anywhere.
UPDATE: This subject continues to be discussed. But, we have had no reports of cell phones registering with towers - we are in a loop here.

Theories and Conspiracy Theories
Currently, it seems most believe there is some positive action here - hijacker or crew based.
Opinion: Mostly, I believe this is because a mechanical failure that selectively terminates communication, incapacitates the crew/passengers, but then allows the a/c to fly on uncontrolled for 7 hours seems unlikely.
There are lots of theories out there - some clearly "conspiracy based" some just factual. Often it is hard to distinguish.
Here are a few.
A fire broke out that incapacitated passengers and crew - but allowed to aircraft to fly on it's own till starvation.
Corollary to this - the fire would have to disable comms, or cause the crew to disable comms in an attempt to fight it.
Corollary to this - the fire drove the pilots out of the cockpit.
Corollary to this - the fire disabled comms, nav and systems, and the crew - still alive - got lost trying to return.
The a/c was hijacked and flown to a remote strip to be used in a future terrorist act.
Corollary to this - The breadth of the countries searching alone makes this problematic, but it is not impossible.
The aircraft "shadowed" either a KLM or SIA aircraft to hide from radar then turned off the track and landed.
Questions raised - lot of discussion about if this was possible.
A mechanical failure depressurized the a/c and disabled the crew/passengers either rapidly or without their knowledge.
Corollary to this - What disabled comms?
One of the pilots hijacked the plane to commit suicide. (See Pilot Conspiracy below).
The plane was hijacked, either with or without crew involvement.
Despite the belief this is incident required human actions - we have no evidence of that. Rather - no other theory seems credible.
Freescale engineers have been hijacked for sensitive US data. Opinion: As an engineer who has worked with Freescale - I find that unsupportable. Companies send groups of employees around all the time. While many companies have policies about the # of executives on a flight - that typically is not enforced on regular employees.
There was something in the Cargo worth stealing - which is why it was not screened. This would require involvement of lots of people on the ground. Why not steal it on the ground.
The plane was full of undeclared gold.Gold is very heavy - what would you declare the cargo as?
The US hijacked the 777 using on board FBW technology to fly it like a drone to Diego Garcia (this one wins the insanity case).
Related: There has been a claim by counter terrorist expert that this could be a "cyber hijack" - a malicious attack of a FBW a/c. I don't know where to go with this - only reporting it because I'm trying to stay ahead of the next craze. Opinion: (speaking as an EE) this is the stuff dreams are made of (bad dreams).

Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).
The crew and passengers are a focus of investigation. Particularly the crew, because of the difficulty of managing an external cockpit intrusion.
The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
To address the data on a few of these:
1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?
2) The pilot has a very fancy flight simulator. People claim he used it to for this. Opinion: A 777 pilot does not need to train for the flying done - he knows how to do that stuff already. What he needs it planning for violent action/takeover. A flight simulator is no help.
Note - there has been some discussion that the pilot used this for training of accomplices.
3) There are rumors of family problems reported from China. This has been reported as untrue.

IN summary what we know is. (This has NOT changed)
The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
There is evidence from SATCOM and Radar that the a/c traveled west - then most likely north west.
Hourly SATCOM signals show the a/c was operating till at least 8:11am Malaysia time, over 7 hrs total flight time
We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

Additional thoughts.
A hijacking or positive intervention by human agency seems likely.
The erratic altitude and course may indicate a struggle on board.
While we would like to believe the a/c landed safely somewhere, that seems unlikely to have happened unobserved.


That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1


[Edited 2014-03-18 13:51:56]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-18 13:43:45 and read 45891 times.

Forget the Maldives. The last ping was captured 7.5 hours after departure from KUL. You simply can't get from the ping location to the Maldives on the fuel they may have had left at that point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 13:46:35 and read 45274 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 49):
Sanity Check - 3/18/2014 19:00Z

Question to the forum.

- These things are getting SO big - I'm wondering if I need to do serious trimming. They are becoming encyclopedic. Not only is that a lot of work for me, I wonder if it is devaluing it.

Please let me know by Instant Message (don't post in the forum).
Click on Send an Instant Message above one of my posts.
Note - no guarantee I will respond but I value your input.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 13:50:48 and read 44599 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 50):
Maldives on the fuel they may have had left at that point

Agreed - a point I made in the latest Sanity Check - if the Maldives sighting is valid - we must discount the SATCOM Ping data.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 13:52:41 and read 44436 times.

http://mh370shadow.com/

This theory, as mentioned before, sounds extremely credible. SQ68 was at FL300. Reports from a week ago suggest MH370 descended to FL295 which would put it 500ft below SQ68. If MH370 was trying to hide off military radar it has been reported 500ft below/above other aircraft would do that trick.

In this picture I just made here http://tinypic.com/r/293jdit/8 using SkyVector just as Keith Ledgerwood did, I pinpointed Pelau Perak on Sky Vector using coordinates. Malaysian authorities have said they tracked it over Pelau Perak before turning northwest over GIVAL and IGREX. At this point MH370 was at FL295 and SQ68 was at FL300. Does this not say a lot?

I'd say one of the pilots had iPad/or hardward similar with connection to FR24/or similar to track aircraft in the vicinity. They needed to find a plane with a route of the northern corridor. One flight was chosen in particular - this instance it being SQ68. SQ68 is a scheduled flight from SIN to BCN. SQ68 levelled off at FL300 as it began it's cruise to BCN heading northwest over the Malacca Strait and the Andaman Sea.

As MH370 ended contact with Malaysian ATC, MH370 turned left on an approximate heading of 255 degrees and descended to FL295. Coincidentally heading for Pelau Perak. We know MH370 flew over/near Pelau Perak as authorities confirmed this. The pilot(s) planning pricisely when they'd be in close proximity to SQ68. Pelau Perak was this point hence the right turn to intercept SQ68. Before now I don't think there's any other theory/explanation that can explain MH370's movements after MH370 said "Goodnight" to the Malaysia ATC.

[Edited 2014-03-18 13:55:14]

[Edited 2014-03-18 13:55:43]

[Edited 2014-03-18 13:58:43]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-18 13:56:37 and read 43645 times.

There is ton of Air Taxi activity over Maldives all the time, some one will notice a 777.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2014-03-18 13:58:43 and read 43433 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 50):
Forget the Maldives. The last ping was captured 7.5 hours after departure from KUL. You simply can't get from the ping location to the Maldives on the fuel they may have had left at that point.

It would be nice if we could exclude some of these hypothetical destinations like Somalia or the Maldives in the "sanity check" upthread. I've seen probably a hundred posts suggesting these places as possible locations for the aircraft and they just didn't have the fuel to go that far. I wish Tom was still around, his input here is missed.

[Edited 2014-03-18 14:00:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 14:03:59 and read 42956 times.

was the lithium battery cargo confirmed or denied?
if the known flight path of the plane was consistent with an autopilot programmed with part or all of a "save the plane" sequence, then mechanical theories surely must be leading, especially if there is no corroborating evidence for pilot mental health issues yet found after digging through their personal lives.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2014-03-18 14:04:44 and read 42818 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 53):

India's combined civil and military radar (over the mainland) should have the resolution required to resolve two 777s flying in formation, or at least be different than a 'normal' return. India's radar is capable of picking up a weather balloon (at the Pakastani border), and they sent fighters after it. India is paranoid, any abnormality would have ended up with an air intercept.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-18 14:05:14 and read 42775 times.

Grasping for straws, admittedly....


Is it possible for someone to activate an older flight plan via this computer? It seems the flight path followed ATC routes - can/does a flight computer store routes or have a route history, sort of like a simple garmin unit?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2014-03-18 14:05:43 and read 43057 times.

The Maldives sighting is inline with my belief this plane has landed in Yemen or Saudi Arabia. There are many airfields in the desert all unmanned. These were built for rapid re-inforcement when needed. Someone could easily be waiting at the airfield with fuel tankers etc.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rickabone
Posted 2014-03-18 14:08:02 and read 42459 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Which is why it is a memory item and why it's so easy/fast to reach down, pull on the mask, have the mask straps inflate, and it put over your head. Literally takes a second or two. Not saying they couldn't have goofed it up but I find it unlikely

The biggest problem I have with a fire is that it would have to be in the right place to disable ACARS and the transponder and depressurize the aircraft. You are not a 777 systems expert and neither am I, but I bet you the actual Boeing systems experts have already seen what was disabled and checked to see if a fire could have hit those in a logical manner.

Plus on top of that, explaining the turns would be hard. If there was no oxygen up there, I would find it hard to believe a passenger was able to hold his/her breath up there. If it was a crew member, the crew member would have known to put the masks on the pilots.

I agree that it's the first thing you are trained to do as a pilot, but if the co-pilot was a bit of a cowboy (maybe up out of his seat), perhaps the captain was out of the cockpit, maybe protocols weren't followed?

Also, who is to say that the fire necessarily disabled ACARS and transponder.... Maybe it was the person trying to cut of electrical power to diagnose the source of the fire? I don't know...

Plus, other than the original turn eastbound, which could be explained by plugging in a course for the nearest large runway, are we sure there were more turns? It is my understanding that many of those waypoints are more or less on the same flight path... Also in the US we have PDR merge routes that you can plug in quickly and will set the autopilot up for a series of airways and waypoints including turns... Not sure how it works out there, but maybe that's possible as well? I don't know all the answers, but it seems we don't have enough information yet to rule out an on board fire so I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss it...

Either way, it will take finding the aircraft, and I would venture to guess that once we do, almost all of us will have been proven wrong in one way or another.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: edmountain
Posted 2014-03-18 14:08:52 and read 42460 times.

Why did it take 11 days (or is it 12?) for these reports from the Maldives to emerge? Sounds like a false alarm.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rebr
Posted 2014-03-18 14:09:47 and read 42447 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 53):

This theory doesn't make any sense to me. Were they counting on their luck? Even the slightest delay in KUL or in the case of SQ68 in SIN and this wouldn't work. Not to mention it is extremely hard to fly in the shadow of another aircraft in the dark of the night with TCAS disabled....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 14:11:23 and read 42118 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 57):

Their radars may of shown abnormalities if your theory is true. They would just have checked secondary radars and then realized it was SQ68 which doesn't pose any threat.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jpetekyxmd80
Posted 2014-03-18 14:13:29 and read 41994 times.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 59):

The Maldives sighting is inline with my belief this plane has landed in Yemen or Saudi Arabia. There are many airfields in the desert all unmanned. These were built for rapid re-inforcement when needed. Someone could easily be waiting at the airfield with fuel tankers etc.

It's really not at all in line with your belief. If it is in the Maldives at 9:15 KUL time, it is on it's last gasps of fuel. And then you think it flew 3 more hours or whatever to Somalia/Middle East? Does spontaneous generation of jet A happen somewhere in your theory?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2014-03-18 14:13:33 and read 42043 times.

Quoting edmountain (Reply 61):
Why did it take 11 days (or is it 12?) for these reports from the Maldives to emerge? Sounds like a false alarm.

It may have taken a few of days to put two and two together. Remember that the plane was supposed to have gone down 1/4 ways around the world.

The thought that the plane could have made it that far did not break till last weekend.

Besides, if you are on vacation, how much news will you be watching  

bt

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CascadingDelays
Posted 2014-03-18 14:17:29 and read 41451 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 2):
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 3):

I have been following the thread daily and am a returning anet'r.

Question. I have read in other areas that the "ping" on radar that the various authorities were following (assuming it was MH370) could have been another plane.

In looking at the area and possible mistakable targets, it seems the SAA287 flight from HGK to JNB frequently crosses northern Malaysia/southern Thailand exactly where it is presumed MH 370 turned left. It leaves HKG at 12:08 AM local time.

It is one of the very few flights i am aware of that head that far south in the Indian Ocean and cross the Malay Peninsula.

Adam

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 14:17:43 and read 41458 times.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 64):
Does spontaneous generation of jet A happen somewhere in your theory?

Maybe they downloaded some Jet A off an iPad............... (Someone needs to make an app similar to download more RAM)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: md11sdf
Posted 2014-03-18 14:17:46 and read 41597 times.

Hello, I only have time to skim the latest posts. Has this been covered?
This morning on CNN their Aviation Expert stated that the "climb to 45,000 feet" everyone is wondering about was a radar data error. It did NOT happen. The reports of the aircraft, after making the hard left turn back to Malaysia, flying low to avoid ground based radars makes even more sense now. After all, a heavily loaded 777 is not really going to be able to make it up to 450 until it's burned some fuel off and "lightened-up".

[Edited 2014-03-18 14:27:12]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-18 14:19:26 and read 41297 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 42):
Thanks. Sorry but somehow I missed that.

I was behind a scope - sorry for not answering earlier.

As has been said, ADS-A/C doesn't run through transponders.

And some crews *might* not know that it sends all this data. However I seriously have doubts as to whether they were logged on (or that Malaysia even has the equipment for it). They were within VHF range, and were on SSR. There would be no point to having an ADS-C session running, as the radar sytem would not use the information because it has SSR and that is more accurate, in terms of updates.

That and ADS-C costs $$$$$$$ so i personally doubt it...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: woodentom
Posted 2014-03-18 14:20:56 and read 41117 times.

I am sure this has been mentioned but so many threads to read.

Can an aircraft fly 1000ft below another and radar think it one plane if one of them has turned off the transmitter?

a pilot friend of mine suggest one theory is this plane could fly below another and hide.

Is this probable

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-18 14:21:39 and read 41272 times.

Quoting woodentom (Reply 70):
http://mh370shadow.com/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: ranold76
Posted 2014-03-18 14:23:17 and read 40962 times.

I have a quick question...... and I have not seen it asked yet...
.
Could it be possible for someone to hack/modify the electronics of an aircraft's transponder, such that it would act only in RECEIVE mode only?
This would essentially allow the aircraft to Rx TCAS data for the ND, thus be able to navigate around traffic? Essentially radars on the ground wouldn't get IDENT on their screens and other aircraft in the sky wouldn't see it on their NDs, No?

It's just something that has crossed my mind in this mind-boggling event...

[Edited 2014-03-18 14:24:35]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 14:23:19 and read 41208 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 42):
So if the FMS-was-reprogrammed theory is based on future waypoints sent via ACARS (as opposed to them just inferring it from primary radar) then whoever put the new waypoints in did it prior to disabling ACARS. Not a good way to cover your tracks.
Quoting rcair1 (Reply 49):
Recent reports in the NYT imply that we 'know' that the turns made by MH370 were the result of programed heading (way-point) changes in the FMS, not hand flying.

At first I thought that the NYT article cannot possibly be accurate. However, I now believe it to be factually accurate. The reason for my belief is that it is based on such level of details regarding future waypoints being part of ADS-C/ACARS messages that this knowledge can come only from a source close to the investigations.

The reason they are not able to pinpoint when the additional waypoint was programmed can be explained if we assume that only two (or some other small number) future waypoints will be sent with each ADS-C/ACARS message. In that case only the last ACARS message at 1:07 am would have contained the waypoint differing from the flight plan, as it would be within next few waypoints, even if it was programmed earlier.

That would indicate that the additional waypoint was programmed well before the last verbal communication at 1:19 am. It basically implicates (at least) one of the pilots, although some ground engineer fiddling with the FMS is technically possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: seatran
Posted 2014-03-18 14:24:51 and read 40657 times.

Does anyone know if the authorities have plotted the radii from each of the hourly pings? This could be helpful. If the distances are getting shorter each hour, that would imply a westward track. If they were getting longer, it could mean a number of things and may not be as helpful in determining a more precise location. I imagine this has been done, but I haven't seen it discussed.

Also, regarding the "shadowing" theory of the KL flight, I think this is feasible, but it would be difficult. When I was in the US Air Force, we did many rendezvous with tanker aircraft. I won't get into specifics, but I'll say that it'd be difficult for a crew that was untrained and inexperienced in rendezvous procedures to accomplish a successful rendezvous esp at night and esp if there was any weather around. It wouldn't be impossible, but definitely difficult.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-18 14:25:15 and read 40725 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 53):
http://mh370shadow.com/

This theory, as mentioned before, sounds extremely credible. SQ68 was at FL300. Reports from a week ago suggest MH370 descended to FL295 which would put it 500ft below SQ68. If MH370 was trying to hide off military radar it has been reported 500ft below/above other aircraft would do that trick.

It would make excellent movie material but in real life would be almost impossible to pull off, especially in total darkness. Having done several air to air rendezvous at lower altitudes (15,000ft) and one at FL350 it's not that easy and ATC's help comes in real handy and so does an operating TCAS. Before this ever started they would have to know exactly when SQ would arrive at the point they wanted to catch up and hope there were no delays. An ipod with FR24 would work fine but they had no connection to the ground to supply data. I think Myth Busters would give this one a "Busted" rating.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: bajamatic
Posted 2014-03-18 14:28:09 and read 40246 times.

Quoting seatran (Reply 74):
I'll say that it'd be difficult for a crew that was untrained and inexperienced in rendezvous procedures to accomplish a successful rendezvous

Does anyone know if this procedure can be practiced in FSX?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-18 14:29:21 and read 40371 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 69):
They were within VHF range, and were on SSR. There would be no point to having an ADS-C session running, as the radar sytem would not use the information because it has SSR and that is more accurate, in terms of updates.

Would it be possible that ADS-C information got send through ACARS as part of the engine health reports? Or if ADS-C information was sent to SITA (or whatever satellite operator), even if it was not relayed to the Malaysian ATC? The reason I ask is that I don't see how somebody could come up with the NYT article without detailed knowledge of the waypoint re-programming and them being sent through ACARS.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-18 14:35:10 and read 39690 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 52):

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 50):
Maldives on the fuel they may have had left at that point

Agreed - a point I made in the latest Sanity Check - if the Maldives sighting is valid - we must discount the SATCOM Ping data.

Thank you both. A little sanity injection here and there makes so much difference.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 14:35:47 and read 39918 times.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 55):
It would be nice if we could exclude some of these hypothetical destinations like Somalia or the Maldives

I believe Maldives is in range - just - but it is totally inconsistent with SATCOM.

The Maldives report is new - not confirmed or debunked - so I think it is worthy inclusion for a short period. If it is confirmed or debunked, or goes stale, I'll demote/remove it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 14:42:30 and read 39006 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 75):

I expect if you've been a pilot for a long time and you're a very high skilled pilot it possible isn't that hard. If you knew SQ68's exact route. If there was no delay on either flight an experience pilot would know how to measure time distance to get from A to B with little effort needed.

Can a planes transponder be turned off but still have TCAS enabled? Or does that defeat the object?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 14:43:57 and read 39145 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 77):
Would it be possible that ADS-C information got send through ACARS as part of the engine health reports?

This does not seem consistent with the Rolls Royce page which states that the ACMS (Aircraft Condition Monitoring Systems) which is used to gather the data for EHM (Engine Health Management) can only be 3KB and they talk about how future systems are being developed to increase that (at the gate). This seems to be inconsistent with sending ADS-C data along with it.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 77):
somebody could come up with the NYT article without detailed knowledge of the waypoint re-programming and them being sent through ACARS

This is precisely why I'm skeptical of the way it is presented. Remember - we had several cases of "we know" that turned out to be "it could be" or "we expect"

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 73):
ADS-C/ACARS message. In that case only the last ACARS message at 1:07 am would have contained the waypoint differing from the flight plan, as it would be within next few waypoints, even if it was programmed earlier.

I think ADS-C will send the next 2 - but only on a change? I just don't know enough about how this works.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: savethequads
Posted 2014-03-18 14:45:25 and read 38880 times.

What I don't get. and why I don't subscribe to the hijack or suicide theory

1. If he's going to commit suicide and dump the plane in the Indian Ocean why does he turn back northwest? The heading after the initial turn (after comm loss) would have put have put him over the ocean quicker and he could have flown out further.

2. If he went northwest over land how could he have possibly evaded radar for so long? He goes over so many radars. Even flying low someone would have seen him. How do they explain that? Someone would have seen this airplane and reported it as suspicious. It's a 777 not a Cessna. If it was flying low then how did it fly for 7 hours? If it was flying high how did it avoid detection?

3. I saw people put paths that go around Indian radar, but that is contrary to what the SATCOM pings reveal, is it not?. Is it possible for the SATCOM pings to reveal the plane was flying in a circle?

All of this seems pretty circumstantial at best.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-18 14:54:03 and read 37747 times.

What about an explosion in the luggage compartment, exposing the Electronics bay to the atmosphere.
Not an attack per se, but just a foolish passenger cargo did not suspect how dangerous it could be.
The initial explosion knocking out comms, ACARS, and degrading the A/C control systems.

The pilots would be faced, with a crippled aircraft. To do damage assessment , They set the AP and program the FMS
to fly to a runway that is easiest to land and familiar to them. The course back to Malaysia was such a course.
After getting close to Malaysian coast, The exposed EE bay is still disintergrating and causing
further loss of aircraft control, until the console communication from the flight deck to
to the FMS is lost. Now I know the pilots would have their own oxygen, but with the
breach in their hull, how long could they have retained their wits.


The FMS would carry out the flight pattern entered. The pilots might have used an existing flight plan
with several way points intending to fly by hand when closer to the coast with shore lights as their guide..
The radar evasion could be explained, if the captain knew that a uncommunicative aircraft MIGHT
be shot down, he would try evade them as long as possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: aseem
Posted 2014-03-18 14:56:33 and read 37535 times.

It is being said that the flight management system could have been programmed to turn west, while it was on the ground. If so, why couldn't the pilots have overruled it??

VT-ASJ

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 15:00:33 and read 37112 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 73):
That would indicate that the additional waypoint was programmed well before the last verbal communication at 1:19 am. It basically implicates (at least) one of the pilots, although some ground engineer fiddling with the FMS is technically possible.

That's why I think it's important to keep considering the possibility that this FMS-was-reprogrammed theory could be strictly a result simply of their primary radar data showing the plane overflying standard waypoints rather than future waypoints actually being transmitted from the aircraft.

[Edited 2014-03-18 15:03:16]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 15:02:32 and read 36811 times.

Quoting savethequads (Reply 82):
Is it possible for the SATCOM pings to reveal the plane was flying in a circle?

Not likely as the SATCOM ping data does not ever pinpoint the location of the aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 15:04:24 and read 36665 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 81):
we had several cases of "we know" that turned out to be "it could be" or "we expect"

And "we didn't know after all."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 15:05:04 and read 36744 times.

it doesn't have to be specifically SQ68 or KL836, maybe they tried with others and failed until they hooked with who ever showed up which explains many turns and lurking around the area, using internet on board watching FR24 is a possibility and they knew their speed from fr24 and let it pass and increased speed to shadow behind it and below, which explains it was not a rendez vous but who ever shoed up at that time

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: chumley
Posted 2014-03-18 15:05:07 and read 36706 times.

I apologize if this has been asked before, but have MH or KUL officials provided definite information as to the amount of fuel loaded prior to the flight?

It seems that this would have to be simple information to acquire due to records kept on the ground.

So far I've only read speculation amounting to: enough fuel for the original flight, plus a planned diversion field (also not publicized, but should be known?), plus a reserve. You would think that the exact amount of fuel loaded would be known.

Side note: Who determines the quantity of fuel to be loaded? Can the pilot change/update the amount at the last minute? And if so, wouldn't there still be very specific documentation of this?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 15:05:34 and read 36648 times.

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 83):

If there was an explosion, other aircraft in the vicinity would've noticed. There were two aircraft in the vicinity at the time of MH370 turn back. Both would've noticed any explosion, I'm sure. Had all been fine, lights turned off, they'd know no difference.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-18 15:07:52 and read 36499 times.

Thanks rc135x for your insightful reply posted in part 33 reply 164, regarding MH370 shadowing SQ68. Sorry for the late reply, I was catching some ZZZZ's soon after my posting.

Just to clarify I was working on MH370 flying inside 600ft of SQ68, this distance of 600ft, was gleaned from another board I was reading, stated by a poster, that an aircraft would be required to fly within 600ft to remain undetected by modern day Primary Radar systems. I also appreciate MH370 would have had to of flown below, or above SQ68, as you stated to avoid vortex/turbulance from SQ68.

I remember watching an air crash documentary years ago, showing a B737 flying at the same altitude directly in the wake of another commercial airliner. The seperation distance was minimal to say the least. The B737 was bouncing around like a Bucking Bronco, but the aircraft did not roll over.

NTSB Investigators were trying to evaluate the theory, that a B737, encountering another larger aircraft's wake turbulance would induce a roll. At the time, two B737 classics had mysteriously hard rolled over at low altitude, the cause was finaly traced to the Rudder PSU, bought on by a little understood phenomena in Commercial Aviation of "Thermal Shock", although the Military had some experience of it,

This revelation helped lead the NTSB to follow this theory. In a test they applied a rapid temperature decrease to the PSU, it activated, going full travel and held. The pilots didn't stand a chance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: texdravid
Posted 2014-03-18 15:09:20 and read 36302 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 57):

Indian radar is up to date, but manning the radars 24/7 is another story. I would think that Indian radar activity and its
alertness would be high in the northwest portions of the country near Pakistan and Northern/Northeast areas around Tibet
and China. However, radar activity and constant monitoring would be less likely to the south and the Bay of Bengal.

India would be more alert in the areas it fears, like around Pakistan and China.

Having said all this, I think this whole MH 370 incident just highlights two things:
1). Having radar capability and having radar competence are two different things. A lot of SE Asian countries are embarrassed
to say that their capabilities are not that great, or that their training/morale of the said radar operators leave a lot to be
desired. They don't the world to know that. Also, in particular, Thailand and especially Malaysia are embarrassed that an
unidentified aircraft was not intercepted and they just looked like bystanders while this aircraft went over their sovereign
airspace.

2). Many, if not all, of the countries in SE Asia do not trust one another, and thus shortcomings of their radars will not be
declared. These countries are not in the business of cooperating with each other, like the US and Canada or Australia
and NZ.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-18 15:13:20 and read 35991 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 77):
Would it be possible that ADS-C information got send through ACARS as part of the engine health reports? Or if ADS-C information was sent to SITA (or whatever satellite operator), even if it was not relayed to the Malaysian ATC? The reason I ask is that I don't see how somebody could come up with the NYT article without detailed knowledge of the waypoint re-programming and them being sent through ACARS.

Finn350 - Hopefully we can get confirmation on this as it would be quite literally a smoking gun that would completely invalidate the mechanical failure line of reasoning. Let' ssee if others with expertise in these systems can weigh in on your assertions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 15:15:10 and read 35718 times.

Quoting chumley (Reply 89):

I raised this question earlier in the thread but no one elaborate, no one for sure that this flight was double fuled and there is only 1 record and the other refuleling was deliberate, also no matter what authorities say, if they have to cover up they will never tell what happened due to embarrasment something bad went under their nose and scrwed up

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-18 15:16:40 and read 35688 times.

The fact that 238 people (minus the nut who did this) are missing is grim. But, i shudder at the thought that this could have been an A 380; we would easily have 400+ people missing instead. Makes it even more imperative that corrective measures are put in place to prevent this from happening in the future where an aircraft can go dark and fly under the radar.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 15:19:09 and read 35329 times.

Quoting chumley (Reply 89):

There would be
- enough for KUL-PEK
- enough for safe diversion
- plus reserve

KUL-PEK 2,400nm 5.5hrs
DLC possible alternate - 90min extra fuel
30/45 mins extra

Maybe in the region of 7.5/7.75hrs of fuel.

The pilot has the final say in how much fuel quantity is needed. An extortionate amount will probably need confirmation from airline with suitable reason.

[Edited 2014-03-18 15:19:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-18 15:23:48 and read 34896 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 80):
Can a planes transponder be turned off but still have TCAS enabled? Or does that defeat the object?

If your transponder is turned off you are blind to TCAS, since MH370 had its transponder turned off then SQ68 would NOT be able to see MH370 but MH370 WOULD be able to see SQ68 so as to facilitate an intercept.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-18 15:24:22 and read 34818 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 91):
I remember watching an air crash documentary years ago, showing a B737 flying at the same altitude directly in the wake of another commercial airliner. The seperation distance was minimal to say the least. The B737 was bouncing around like a Bucking Bronco, but the aircraft did not roll over.

I remember this video. It wasn't an air crash documentary, it was a FAA research flight. But for the hell of it, I can't find it right now...


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: kevinkevin
Posted 2014-03-18 15:30:12 and read 34245 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 97):

So Keith's theory still stands plausible then. If this was methodically planned, anything is possible.

Would the pilots be able to get hold of SQ68's planned route?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 15:31:27 and read 34316 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 96):
There would be
- enough for KUL-PEK
- enough for safe diversion
- plus reserve

KUL-PEK 2,400nm 5.5hrs
DLC possible alternate - 90min extra fuel
30/45 mins extra

Maybe in the region of 7.5/7.75hrs of fuel.

The pilot has the final say in how much fuel quantity is needed. An extortionate amount will probably need confirmation from airline with suitable reason.


It's all about the culture, you guys keep thinking this USA or UK, if the captain stared or yelled at aground crew and told them we are switching destination to let's to a european destination and I need extra fuel, no 1 in thispart of the world will question his command, which makes me think of the slow initial climb that people noticed on fr24 than the usual for a flight with supposidly only 7.5hrs fuel on board.

after 11 days any info from Malaysia i take it with grain of salt

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: EC135
Posted 2014-03-18 15:33:33 and read 33988 times.

Any possibility for refueling the a/c when flying low? If so, on what locations could this has happened unnoticed? Would there have been any refueling possibility - e.g. Sri Lanka and then taking off again maybe towards Africa via Maldives? All theories so far are based on the amount of the fuel the a/c has on board when departing KL.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jetwet1
Posted 2014-03-18 15:42:36 and read 33181 times.

As we know, the search function on this site sucks, always has and probably always will.

I type this because at this point I am guessing somebody already linked this piece, if so, I am sorry, if not, it does actually make a lot of sense.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-18 15:42:37 and read 33301 times.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 101):
Any possibility for refueling the a/c when flying low?

Are you seriously asking this? Definitely not possible.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 95):
Makes it even more imperative that corrective measures are put in place to prevent this from happening in the future where an aircraft can go dark and fly under the radar.

MH370 will certainly lead to some general changes. I think its important that transponders and ACARS from now on can only be manually switched of when on the ground.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 15:42:47 and read 33170 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 100):
after 11 days any info from Malaysia i take it with grain of salt

Except inmarsat is based in the UK and was the source for the satcom ping data which is confirmed by more than just the Malaysian authorities. Unless the sat info is horribly wrong they would have shown up directly under IOR or AOR-E sats should they have flown towards Africa. Ignoring/discounting the satcom data doesn't look to make much sense. Also if the plane was using the internet it would have been seen by inmarsat as that is the only way I know of getting wifi on a plane (via sat). (Not that the flight even had internet access).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: brilondon
Posted 2014-03-18 15:43:58 and read 33147 times.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 101):
Any possibility for refueling the a/c when flying low? If so, on what locations could this has happened unnoticed? Would there have been any refueling possibility - e.g. Sri Lanka and then taking off again maybe towards Africa via Maldives? All theories so far are based on the amount of the fuel the a/c has on board when departing KL.

You mean like military aircraft do? Commercial aircraft cannot refuel in the air as they don't have the receiving nozzle from a tanker and I think that it would be noticed from some authority that a tanker aircraft was refueling an aircraft. Either through fuel or other logs by some supplier.

I can't believe that there would be anybody alive at this point in time, including the crew.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-18 15:46:35 and read 32824 times.

Quoting chumley (Reply 89):
have MH or KUL officials provided definite information as to the amount of fuel loaded prior to the flight?

Not publicly, but presumably the SATCOM ping arcs took into account the fuel upload. If they'd uploaded significantly more fuel, the search area would be much wider than the arcs.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Mouldypete
Posted 2014-03-18 15:46:55 and read 32996 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 73):
That would indicate that the additional way point was programmed well before the last verbal communication at 1:19 am. It basically implicates (at least) one of the pilots, although some ground engineer fiddling with the FMS is technically possible.

This is very interesting. There is one thing (among others) which has been a mental 'tic' in my mind for a few days now.

In a press conference (pc) the Malaysian authorities stated that they were looking into the behaviour of the pilots and also the ground engineers before the flight. In addition they mentioned that the one or more of the ground engineers "had been in contact" with the pilots before the flight. Did this mean physically on the flight deck or by electronic communication? Why would they bother to include this in the pc I wonder?

Could they have been having thoughts on the same lines as Finn350?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 15:48:33 and read 32645 times.

Quoting na (Reply 103):
MH370 will certainly lead to some general changes. I think its important that transponders and ACARS from now on can only be manually switched of when on the ground.

That still doesn't stop people from turning them off by the circuit breakers and adding independent power to ACARS+Transponder would require independent power backup similar to the emergency transponder or RIPs equipped black boxes (More weight and cost). I think the easiest way to fix this problem is just updating the firmware of the installed ELT to broadcast should there be a problem with the plane's tracking system. An ELT has backup power for 24 hours or more and is detectable almost anywhere on the planet so it would be the most ideal tracking solution which is already installed on planes. (Not to mention most of the time it doesn't work in a crash so modifying it to work in an inflight emergency would help and possibly even accelerate search and rescue efforts as it would show the track before impact instead of nothing after impact)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-18 15:48:44 and read 32657 times.

Quoting na (Reply 103):
I think its important that transponders and ACARS from now on can only be manually switched of when on the ground.

Until the first transponder-generated fire. Not going to happen.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 15:50:34 and read 32621 times.

The so-called corridors that are supposed to comprise the last estimated MH370 position have now led to the creation of the 14 400x400nm search areas. However the technical method used to arrive at the corridors has not been described, thus avoiding the possibility of independent scrutiny.

Obviously Malaysia stands by those estimates as they have caused the assets of many countries to be focused accordingly. It is hard to imagine that some of those countries would not have asked Malaysia to see the data that justifies their new search efforts, meaning that Inmarsat must be providing the necessary backup.

But Inmarsat has been remarkably silent except I think for an initial statement about the slant range of the aircraft seen from the satellite. No corridors for the other pings have been released. Why?

I would assume that they must be very busy refining their 40deg +/- 3.3 deg (elevation error is only my own based on +/- 200nm radial error on the ground), not only through theoretical analysis but also by pinging aircraft of opportunity flying everyday in the area of interest. For instance, it would be nice tho know that if they ping an SQ68 flight so often speculated about, they locate that aircraft in a different corridor.

But if all MH370 pings fall into the one and only official corridor today, I would be tempted to believe that the mastermind behind this incredible event may have left a crude, cloned L-band transceiver behind, somewhere in Malaysia. After all KL is in the corridor if you extend the still unverified margin of error to +/- 5 degrees.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 15:53:18 and read 32264 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 106):
Not publicly, but presumably the SATCOM ping arcs took into account the fuel upload. If they'd uploaded significantly more fuel, the search area would be much wider than the arcs.

No there are limits to the arcs the inmarsat constellation provides another bound as if it flew so far as to leave IORs coverage or enter say PORs or AOR-E it would have been seen as such. From what we know it was inside IOR's coverage alone when the last ping went out. (For example if MH370 was somehow magically teleported over mid-canada the ping would have been received/routed from AOR-W)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-18 15:53:31 and read 32358 times.

How is NYT determining that someone changed flight plan in cockpit? How can this be confirmed? I am hearing about this in several media outlets.

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-...changed-cockpit-computer-report-20

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-18 15:54:37 and read 32094 times.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 101):
All theories so far are based on the amount of the fuel the a/c has on board when departing KL.

And on the last Satcom ping.

Quoting capri (Reply 100):
if the captain stared or yelled at aground crew and told them we are switching destination to let's to a european destination and I need extra fuel, no 1 in thispart of the world will question his command

Even if true, the quantity actually loaded would still be known.

Quoting capri (Reply 100):
which makes me think of the slow initial climb that people noticed on fr24 than the usual for a flight with supposidly only 7.5hrs fuel on board.

Not unusual, according to others who regularly operate eastward from KUL.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-18 15:55:19 and read 32061 times.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 80):
I expect if you've been a pilot for a long time and you're a very high skilled pilot it possible isn't that hard. If you knew SQ68's exact route. If there was no delay on either flight an experience pilot would know how to measure time distance to get from A to B with little effort needed.

Can a planes transponder be turned off but still have TCAS enabled? Or does that defeat the object

It doesn't work that easily, it's a big sky out there. With the transponder off, TCAS doesn't work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-18 15:56:07 and read 31983 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
But Inmarsat has been remarkably silent except I think for an initial statement about the slant range of the aircraft seen from the satellite. No corridors for the other pings have been released. Why?

Because the International Convention on Civil Aviation explicitly requires that all public communications be through the investigating authority. You may have noticed that the NTSB and its counterparts in other countries have also been "silent".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 15:56:49 and read 31884 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 109):
Until the first transponder-generated fire. Not going to happen.

Which is why they should just use the already always on ELT to provide the always on the ready tracking beacon. Even now pilots can only turn it on or test the device and it has its own battery and is independent of computer control systems. Right now it only turns on if manually activated or if the g-switch trips it but they could easily change it to go into test mode should a problem arise with other important tracking systems on the plane so international rescue efforts could being before the plane crashes. (ELTs rarely work in jet airline crashes as they are usually so violent it renders the ELT useless or without its antenna)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-18 15:57:14 and read 32164 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 79):
I believe Maldives is in range - just - but it is totally inconsistent with SATCOM.The Maldives report is new - not confirmed or debunked - so I think it is worthy inclusion for a short period. If it is confirmed or debunked, or goes stale, I'll demote/remove it.

The Maldives sight is "totally consistent" with other aircrafts flying low IN OTHER DIRECTIONS trying for sighting help, after having told of the missing, IMHO.

[Edited 2014-03-18 15:58:00]

[Edited 2014-03-18 15:58:49]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-18 15:57:53 and read 31909 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 109):
Until the first transponder-generated fire. Not going to happen.

Why should there be a fire if it cant be switched off manually? And even if so, it only requires a fix for that possibility. That said, I dont want to discuss details as I´m no technician, but the first lesson learnt from MH370 is that a civilian plane should not be able to go completely dark by the will of anyone on board. How that is done is another page in the book.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: sovietjet
Posted 2014-03-18 15:58:43 and read 31745 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
But if all MH370 pings fall into the one and only official corridor today, I would be tempted to believe that the mastermind behind this incredible event may have left a crude, cloned L-band transceiver behind, somewhere in Malaysia. After all KL is in the corridor if you extend the still unverified margin of error to +/- 5 degrees.

In that case the satellite would be getting pings from two places. Don't think this would work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: EC135
Posted 2014-03-18 15:59:11 and read 31776 times.

I of course don't speak from an international Airport, I thought of a remote place, plain and long enough for a 777 to land, being refueld by truck, and departing again without being noticed by many people?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-18 16:00:12 and read 31607 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 100):
if the captain stared or yelled at aground crew and told them we are switching destination to let's to a european destination and I need extra fuel

This would never happen, regardless of the culture, but you can be sure that the fueling company would document any extra fuel that was loaded onto an aircraft. There are many other factors that go into the climb rate, weight being one of many.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 16:01:10 and read 31558 times.

Quoting na (Reply 118):
Why should there be a fire if it cant be switched off manually? And even if so, it only requires a fix for that possibility. That said, I dont want to discuss details as I´m no technician, but the first lesson learnt from MH370 is that a civilian plane should not be able to go completely dark by the will of anyone on board. How that is done is another page in the book.

Well given an improperly installed ELT battery can catch fire I don't think we need to go around installing batteries and hooking things to every bus on the plane to keep it powered at all costs. (Just use the ELT it already exists on most planes, it has dedicated frequencies, it is meant for tracking, it can embed GPS location, it can work with doppler tracking, it is a well understood system with international tracking centers, ...) all it takes is some firmware updates or a minor hardware revision with no added weight/power consumption. (It doesn't even need to broadcast constantly)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-18 16:02:44 and read 31532 times.

Quoting jox (Reply 17):
I got this place from some of the linked postings:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=Kudahuvadhoo&ll=2.672313,72.874031&t=h&z=13

Male airport is a single runway, without any real taxiways, when larger aircraft land, there normally have to go to the end to the turning node of make a 180. Also for startup, aircraft are often pushed back onto the runway.

It is common in MLE to get extended downwind vectoring which would explain this flight path as the spacing between flights is normally at least 10 minutes. The northerly runway has the ILS.

Quoting hivue (Reply 24):
I understand that, but what I'm saying is ADS-whatever goes out by transponder, not ACARS, right?

It depends on the ADS, it can go via the datalink on a mode S transponder, or via another datalink method like ACARS network (VHF/Satellite).

Given the age of the 772, I would think it would be more likely to have been a CPDLC connection rather than ADS-C, CPDLC and ADS are both data link applications that can use a number of different ways to connect to the ATC network.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 81):
This does not seem consistent with the Rolls Royce page which states that the ACMS (Aircraft Condition Monitoring Systems) which is used to gather the data for EHM (Engine Health Management) can only be 3KB and they talk about how future systems are being developed to increase that (at the gate). This seems to be inconsistent with sending ADS-C data along with it.

Cruise reports from memory do not contain position information.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 81):
I think ADS-C will send the next 2 - but only on a change? I just don't know enough about how this works.

A typical ADS_C report would look like this

[time] - Periodic Rpt
Basic_Group Lat: [] Long: [] Alt: []
Next_Pos Lat: [] Long: [] Alt: [] ETA: []
Next+1_Pos Lat: [] Long: [] Alt: []
Met_Group Wind: []deg / []kt Temp: []

It can also send out ten intermediate projected intent points that would appear after the met report.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 16:04:09 and read 31307 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 121):
This would never happen, regardless of the culture, but you can be sure that the fueling company would document any extra fuel that was loaded onto an aircraft. There are many other factors that go into the climb rate, weight being one of many.

Yeah I highly doubt a yelling captain could yell hard enough to make the fuel transfer amount inaccurate on the pump. (if anything the actual amount of fuel transferred would be less than the recorded amount as the fuel company would definitely not want to give away free fuel)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-18 16:05:00 and read 31245 times.

Quoting na (Reply 118):
Why should there be a fire if it cant be switched off manually?

Same reason you have circuit breakers in your house that can be switched manually when the dishwasher / fridge / washing machine / dryer / ac / furnace goes into meltdown.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 16:06:23 and read 31079 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 115):
Because the International Convention on Civil Aviation explicitly requires that all public communications be through the investigating authority

Of course. But why wouldn't Malaysia publish more satcom data to buttress their plan if that data is so convincing?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: zanl188
Posted 2014-03-18 16:08:58 and read 31147 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 116):
Which is why they should just use the already always on ELT to provide the always on the ready tracking beacon. Even now pilots can only turn it on or test the device and it has its own battery and is independent of computer control systems. Right now it only turns on if manually activated or if the g-switch trips it but they could easily change it to go into test mode should a problem arise with other important tracking systems on the plane so international rescue efforts could being before the plane crashes. (ELTs rarely work in jet airline crashes as they are usually so violent it renders the ELT useless or without its antenna)

Or they could strap on, or modify a fairing or access panel to carry, one of those solar powered wildlife trackers. Reliable, self powered, can't be turned off from flight deck, and relatively low cost. Done.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-18 16:09:20 and read 31335 times.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 102):
Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 102):
I type this because at this point I am guessing somebody already linked this piece, if so, I am sorry, if not, it does actually make a lot of sense.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/


This theory gets my vote, my only reservation, historically, how many landing gear fires have been extinguished while in flight?

The fire would have had to of been extinguished, for MH370 to have continued on it's heading for the next 7 hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 16:11:05 and read 31071 times.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 119):
In that case the satellite would be getting pings from two places. Don't think this would work.

If a "mastermid" was smart enough to build a crude but sufficient clone to respond to simple supervisory handshake, I think that they might also find out how to turn the on-board satcom off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 16:13:34 and read 30950 times.

Quoting na (Reply 118):
but the first lesson learnt from MH370 is that a civilian plane should not be able to go completely dark by the will of anyone on board. How that is done is another page in the book.

You realize pilots can just dump the nose and kill everyone... do we need measures in place from the pilots cutting an engine? Depressurizing the aircraft? Descending rapidly?

If a pilot really wants to be sinister with an aircraft, no one is really gonna stop them

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 16:13:48 and read 30815 times.

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 127):
Or they could strap on, or modify a fairing or access panel to carry, one of those solar powered wildlife trackers. Reliable, self powered, can't be turned off from flight deck, and relatively low cost. Done.

Well that pretty much describes an ELT which already is installed on planes (It doesn't have solar power but 24 hours at -40C is plenty enough battery power) a PLB (Same thing as an ELT just in a portable form factor) I have is rated to 30+ hours at -40C (inside the plane it won't be that cold) and if at room temp it could last for days (even after power is cut deliberately or not). This modification would be almost no cost, no added weight, no added batteries, no added risk, ... (nothing would really change other than being able to track plane before they crash or if they go dark)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CO953
Posted 2014-03-18 16:17:25 and read 30576 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 91):
Just to clarify I was working on MH370 flying inside 600ft of SQ68, this distance of 600ft, was gleaned from another board I was reading, stated by a poster, that an aircraft would be required to fly within 600ft to remain undetected by modern day Primary Radar systems. I also appreciate MH370 would have had to of flown below, or above SQ68, as you stated to avoid vortex/turbulance from SQ68.

I remember watching an air crash documentary years ago, showing a B737 flying at the same altitude directly in the wake of another commercial airliner. The seperation distance was minimal to say the least. The B737 was bouncing around like a Bucking Bronco, but the aircraft did not roll over.

I am talking off the cuff here, and don't really know what I'm talking about, but don't US military pilots do this all the time when refueling? Seems to me that a KC-10 is able to refuel a smaller jet w/o upsetting the smaller jet, which remains stable enough for the refueling-boom operator to find his target?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 16:17:41 and read 30633 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 129):
If a "mastermid" was smart enough to build a crude but sufficient clone to respond to simple supervisory handshake, I think that they might also find out how to turn the on-board satcom off.

Oh my, this is getting ridiculous. If they somehow copied the unique identifier from the modem (Which is hard coded) and had the exact timing so that they could make the hourly timestamps match up precisely and coordinate with the plane to shut off the satcom modem at the right moment and hack inmarsat to fake the log-in process (which is different process) and fly the clone modem on a fake path to mimic fake data or have a number of modems all in the right places. Its beyond a doubt insane if they where that capable why not just turn off the satcom modem from the start.

With all the other tracking systems off no one would be able to track the plane, the amount of effort to do something less while being more complex is illogical and extremely unlikely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 16:26:32 and read 29731 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 130):
You realize pilots can just dump the nose and kill everyone... do we need measures in place from the pilots cutting an engine? Depressurizing the aircraft? Descending rapidly?

If a pilot really wants to be sinister with an aircraft, no one is really gonna stop them

Twitch plays airplane pilot. (Would not want to be on that plane) and in all seriousness there has to be some level of trust between parties and due diligence before hand. Lack of trust in pilots and going around adding all sorts of overrides and lockouts is going to get people or politicians to advocate remote pilot override systems (which would break the airgap between the flight control computer and the internet basically opening the door to twitch plays airplane pilot for reals) That would be bad to say the least.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-18 16:28:27 and read 29546 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 126):
Of course. But why wouldn't Malaysia publish more satcom data to buttress their plan if that data is so convincing?

Proprietary, maybe. There are competing satellite providers. And, anyway, why would they pander to the mindless speculation on these threads and in the media. They have a real job to do, which has nothing to do with providing fodder for uninformed speculation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: IADCA
Posted 2014-03-18 16:29:27 and read 29622 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 128):
This theory gets my vote, my only reservation, historically, how many landing gear fires have been extinguished while in flight?

The fire would have had to of been extinguished, for MH370 to have continued on it's heading for the next 7 hours

This theory gets no credence from me because it's (a) inconsistent with the satellite data and (b) he gets basic facts wrong in his discussion of his comparables for inflight fires. As I've posted before, in just one paragraph, he makes at least 5 demonstrably incorrect statements:

- The AC DC9 flight landed at CVG, not Columbus.
-23 people, not "thirty-odd," died.
- They did not "bypass several airports" because they didn't know them, as the writer insinuates; they bypassed them because they assumed the smoke alarm was going off due to a smoldering fire in a lavatory trash bin, which happened a lot at the time.
-the Swissair crash was an MD-11, not a DC-10.
- There's nothing to indicate that the Swissair 111 pilots ever shut off the radios. They were transmitting to ATC until 10 seconds before the CVR and FDR stopped recording.

When you're going with that level of crap for things that are easily verifiable, I can only imagine what level of assumption and speculation went into this theory - which apparently assumes that an airliner so full of smoke and fire as to kill everyone on board just kept on flying? We have an unfortunately robust history of inflight fires demonstrating that the airframes typically fail before the pilots die.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 16:29:30 and read 29578 times.

were there any reports or news or anyone checked out the Russian and 2 Ukrainian passengers on board???

[Edited 2014-03-18 16:34:04]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: dragon-wings
Posted 2014-03-18 16:34:19 and read 29358 times.

They did a live interview with someone from the US Navy who is searching for the plane and he said that the southern area has hardly been searched at all! Australia just started searching this area like 2 days ago, it will be disheartening if Australia finds the plane in a few days when all the other countries have been searching to the north and hardly anything is the south.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Bronwyn
Posted 2014-03-18 16:36:03 and read 29223 times.

Forgive if already posted. Thailand finally shares radar of unidentified a/c.

http://news.yahoo.com/thailand-gives...-10-days-plane-lost-124915659.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-18 16:37:03 and read 28917 times.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 132):

I not sure if your read my original post in part 33 (Reply 114), to which rc135x was replying. I was speculating about the possible turbulance, amongst other things, that would be encountered by MH370 if it was shadowing SQ68 as has been theorised by others to explain how MH370 was able to traverse large swathes of Air Controlled airspace unchallenged (Flying the Northern arc), with the transponder and anti collision lights switched off.

I do understand that Fighter jets can refuel behind and below a tanker without being adversely affected by the larger tankers wake vortex. Please read my post in part 33 to understand the full context of my missinformed position regarding the shadowing theory, that rc135x (Reply 164) in part 33 of this thread managed to shed light on.

Edit : Needed to track down which Reply to read, it was Reply 114 in part 33.

[Edited 2014-03-18 16:40:09]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 16:41:19 and read 28566 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 133):
Oh my, this is getting ridiculous. If they somehow copied the unique identifier from the modem (Which is hard coded) and had the exact timing so that they could make the hourly timestamps match up precisely and coordinate with the plane to shut off the satcom modem at the right moment and hack inmarsat to fake the log-in process (which is different process) and fly the clone modem on a fake path to mimic fake data or have a number of modems all in the right places. Its beyond a doubt insane if they where that capable why not just turn off the satcom modem from the start.

With all the other tracking systems off no one would be able to track the plane, the amount of effort to do something less while being more complex is illogical and extremely unlikely.

A number of modems in all the right places? Well if you know the raw data from the other pings, please share it with us. I have not seen any. Remember, I just said that if all the pings were all in the "official" corridor at the same distance from the satellite, I would be somewhat worried as to what data we are looking at. Besides, is it possible that the handshakes may just be supervisory messages to try restoring the link for pending applications?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 16:45:07 and read 28586 times.

I read an alarming story

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/articl...fficking-camp-may-face-deportation

"These people will refuse to acknowledge Chinese citizenship to avoid being forcibly repatriated," said Kayum Masimov, president of the Montreal-based Uyghur Canadian Society. "They will simply refuse to talk. They fear for their safety."

Human Rights Watch spokesman Phil Robertson said when Uygurs "try to flee overseas, Beijing often pursues them relentlessly". He added: "Over the past few years, there have been several serious incidents in Cambodia, Malaysia and Thailand where China has used its influence to demand Uygur refugees and asylum seekers be returned against their will to China."


, it's just a wild guess I am throwing as a theory. could Malaysia forcefully deported Uygurs back to china and these pax acted and were the ones committed suicide rather that go back to China?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Bronwyn
Posted 2014-03-18 16:47:37 and read 28147 times.

And once again, forgive if already posted - I think I'm up to date on everything and I personally think it is prob in the bottom of the Indian Ocean but who the hell knows? All of us have small theories we think about and perhaps don't discuss...

Ian Black, a Virgin A340 Captain shares a Batman and Robin scenario. Farfetched, but if that 777 is slammed into something a year from now in banana yellow Braniff livery (well, not likely) we'll be kicking ourselves that we didn't consider it:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wor...d-mh370-have-been-swapped-mid-air/

And I still think the pilots were heroes in an inexplicable situation - until I'm proven wrong (and all of us are probably wrong!)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CO953
Posted 2014-03-18 16:48:21 and read 27920 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 140):
I not sure if your read my original post in part 33 (Reply 114), to which rc135x was replying. I was speculating about the possible turbulance, amongst other things, that would be encountered by MH370 if it was shadowing SQ68 as has been theorised by others to explain how MH370 was able to traverse large swathes of Air Controlled airspace unchallenged (Flying the Northern arc), with the transponder and anti collision lights switched off.

I do understand that Fighter jets can refuel behind and below a tanker without being adversely affected by the larger tankers wake vortex. Please read my post in part 33 to understand the full context of my missinformed position regarding the shadowing theory, that rc135x (Reply 164) in part 33 of this thread managed to shed light on.

Edit : Needed to track down which Reply to read, it was Reply 114 in part 33.

Thanks for the context! I knew you knew that about the military tankers. I just assumed that someone had told you that MH370 could not have been shadowing SQ68 due to turbulence, and I was responding to that.

Appreciated....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: dragon6172
Posted 2014-03-18 16:53:34 and read 27597 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 129):
If a "mastermid" was smart enough to build a crude but sufficient clone to respond to simple supervisory handshake, I think that they might also find out how to turn the on-board satcom off.

The only report is of the last handshake. However, they allude to their being others that help corroborate radar data. If someone "cloned" the system then all of the handshakes would be at the same distance from the satellite.

Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you are theorizing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 16:55:30 and read 27430 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 141):
A number of modems in all the right places? Well if you know the raw data from the other pings, please share it with us. I have not seen any. Remember, I just said that if all the pings were all in the "official" corridor at the same distance from the satellite, I would be somewhat worried as to what data we are looking at. Besides, is it possible that the handshakes may just be supervisory messages to try restoring the link for pending applications?

The final position includes the previous to narrow the estimate. If the pings started showing up in AOR-E, AOR-W, POR (they would be scratching their heads) if multiple network collisions and duplicate modems were detected that would be so obvious it wouldn't be funny and that is something they would see for sure as that is a big no-no on a network where billing and account management is going to be looking for those IDs someone trying to spoof a modem would also be a potential thief.

The pings are keep alive messages from an existing but unused connection, any attempt to spoof that with a duplicate modem would be difficult to say the least. To somehow get back on the network with another clone modem and not be noticed would be very difficult. Unless inmarsat was hacked or it was an inside job I doubt it and it still stands that just turning off satcom would be easier than faking it.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 129):
If a "mastermid" was smart enough to build a crude but sufficient clone to respond to simple supervisory handshake, I think that they might also find out how to turn the on-board satcom off.
Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
But if all MH370 pings fall into the one and only official corridor today, I would be tempted to believe that the mastermind behind this incredible event may have left a crude, cloned L-band transceiver behind, somewhere in Malaysia. After all KL is in the corridor if you extend the still unverified margin of error to +/- 5 degrees.

Why leave a receiver behind when you could just turn it off and be totally hidden. It isn't exactly easy to steal inmarsat's services as I'm sure people with SDRs who can already decode inmarsat data would have done so already. Inmarsat already confirmed they are confident that the plane's modem is the plane's and to spoof a inmarsat system would require extensive hacking and a non-trivial effort for no particular reason.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 16:59:56 and read 27112 times.

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 145):
he only report is of the last handshake. However, they allude to their being others that help corroborate radar data. If someone "cloned" the system then all of the handshakes would be at the same distance from the satellite.
Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 145):
The only report is of the last handshake. However, they allude to their being others that help corroborate radar data. If someone "cloned" the system then all of the handshakes would be at the same distance from the satellite.

I have just been asking for now several days: what "corridors" can be derived from the earlier pings, particularly the one approximately 4-5 hrs after departure. Anything secret about them?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: TheWipp
Posted 2014-03-18 17:01:24 and read 27071 times.

So, unannounced landings seem to have happened before? Boeing 737 in PNG in this case:


http://beforeitsnews.com/events/2014...you-never-heard-about-2432802.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: affirmative
Posted 2014-03-18 17:01:37 and read 26993 times.

Isn't CoCo islands in the area that are being searched? Or at least in the general direction. The Airport there seemed quite desolate and no immediate military installations around. Could be able to go in and out.

Diego Garcia would only happen if the US was well in on it, and in that case we're talking about a completely different kettle of fish.

What's a bit interesting is that one of the Airports mentioned in the report regarding the flight simulator of the captain was in the Addu islands in the Maldives. The Gan Airport seems quite isolated as well and with the reports of low flying big jets in the area. What's also interesting is that even though the runway at Gan airport could easily handle a T7 it looks like the majority of traffic is smaller jets..

Knowing the distance of the satellite to the earths surface you should be able to get an approximate latitude and since the earth is not completely circular once could also calculate the offset and come up with a fairly correct location using the pings. I'm guessing this is what they have been doing and hence come up with the location in the southern indian ocean. If this is corroborated with the LOS in the malacca strait this might give you an approximate flight path. However, I still feel that the Maldives report is more plausible given that the captain already had some interest in that region.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: seatran
Posted 2014-03-18 17:03:01 and read 26930 times.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 132):
I am talking off the cuff here, and don't really know what I'm talking about, but don't US military pilots do this all the time when refueling? Seems to me that a KC-10 is able to refuel a smaller jet w/o upsetting the smaller jet, which remains stable enough for the refueling-boom operator to find his target?

Yes, military pilots do this all the time behind KC-135 and KC-10 aircraft. The Navy also does it behind smaller aircraft. Virtually all major weapon system aircraft in the US military have air refueling capability. Depending on the conditions, it can be difficult for a large aircraft to maintain contact behind a tanker, especially if the receiver pilot isn't very proficient. However, MH 370 wouldn't have had to maintain contact position. It simply would have needed to trail the jet at some distance to allow their radar returns to merge. Had MH 370 been able to get into that position maintaining it probably wouldn't have been super-difficult.

The more difficult thing to do would have been accomplishing a successful rendezvous at night with another aircraft who isn't doing anything to help you accomplish the rendezvous and with a crew who had very likely never practiced a rendezvous before IRL. That would be difficult, but not impossible, to do. I don't think that a PC-based flight simulator would have provided an accurate enough or realistic enough environment to give someone the required expertise to perform a rendezvous IRL.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 17:06:56 and read 26547 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 147):
I have just been asking for now several days: what "corridors" can be derived from the earlier pings, particularly the one approximately 4-5 hrs after departure. Anything secret about them?

There is no point in the older pings other than they corroborate other known information all that matters is where the plane last was and the last ping matches up with the estimated fuel on the plane. The ping closest to the time of the last radar contact is just going to be ontop of the last radar contact as that is how the estimate is built. They know the sat data provides a large ring and any data to narrow it down is used. After that short of any other primary data it is just going to be every line to the edge of the final arc. There is no real point in releasing all the other data as news agencies and people will get confused and think the plane could be anywhere along the huge cake slices when in reality only the final ping really matters. As stated before if they wanted to simulate a valid sat ping sequence it would involve a lot more than having a single crude stationary inmarsat modem.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:10:41 and read 26385 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 147):
I have just been asking for now several days: what "corridors" can be derived from the earlier pings, particularly the one approximately 4-5 hrs after departure. Anything secret about them?

I think they are only "secret" to the extent that they don't exist in the SATCOM data. A "ping" at a particular point in time yields a set(s) of possible locations for the plane not any path information or corridors. Considering data from several pings would just increase the number of sets of points and probably only confuse matters.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:15:26 and read 26113 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 22):
Quoting jox (Reply 17):
I got this place from some of the linked postings:
https://www.google.com/maps?q=Kudahuvadhoo&ll=2.672313,72.874031&spn=0.164959,0.196552&t=h&hnear=Kudahuvadhoo&z=13

It seems like an extremely small and rather isolated place, so that might explain why it took a while for the message to reach out. It is likely that the fishermen (or whatever they might be) that live there hadn't heard about the missing 777 so they didn't see the need to urgently report the sighting.

I dunno Maldives looks like a pretty nice resort destination (http://roomsvillas.angsana.com/maldives_velavaru/Reservations/Rooms/Beachfront-Villa) and hotels (Complimentary Wifi) around the area and likely many homes have internet access. (via, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhiraagu and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raajj%C3%A9_Online

[Edited 2014-03-18 12:39:02]

Edit, more specifically the entire island chain has internet and cell access it seems. http://www.maldivesclub.ru/sites/all...p.jpg

The Maldives has quite a few resorts, but in the grand scheme of things it is mostly empty islands with lots of ocean in between. Definitely not "the ends of the earth" but to put the distances in perspective from Male to Angsana Velavaru is almost an hour by Twin Otter on floats.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 59):

The Maldives sighting is inline with my belief this plane has landed in Yemen or Saudi Arabia. There are many airfields in the desert all unmanned. These were built for rapid re-inforcement when needed. Someone could easily be waiting at the airfield with fuel tankers etc.

If the plane needed to fly that far, it would have made little sense to fly that low over the Maldives due to the fuel burn penalty.

Quoting EC135 (Reply 101):
Any possibility for refueling the a/c when flying low? If so, on what locations could this has happened unnoticed? Would there have been any refueling possibility - e.g. Sri Lanka and then taking off again maybe towards Africa via Maldives? All theories so far are based on the amount of the fuel the a/c has on board when departing KL.

AFAIK, The Maldives has only ten runways, and only two that are nominally long enough for a 777. Some of the others have runways in the 3000-4000ft range, so it would be theoretically possible to land but you probably couldn't take off again with any sort of range.

Both the ones with longer runways, GAN and MLE, are very close to habitation and in full view.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 17:18:18 and read 25732 times.

Quoting affirmative (Reply 149):
However, I still feel that the Maldives report is more plausible given that the captain already had some interest in that region.

Maybe because commercial flights might land at Gan eventually as they are looking to become the second international airport for the islands. The area around the airport isn't exactly unpopulated or unconnected and your flying right over a very trafficed area by sea/air taxi services and many resorts, beaches (Want to goto Shangri-La's nearby spa with complementary wifi? its just a short boat/plane taxi away). (The area is small but not isolated such that a malaysia airline's 777 could land there or crash without being noticed)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-18 17:18:38 and read 25743 times.

regarding rendezvous with another aircraft at night...I think a little ingenuity could go a long way.

I think it could be done without any additional assistance beyond pre-planning/studying company routes, listening to the radio, and the instruments you already have on the 777; but with that said, here are three ideas that I bet could be helpful.

* surplus night vision goggles. The other aircraft you are chasing has at least two massive sources of heat mounted to it and would probably show up very nicely on night vision goggles. You can get these on the internet or older models surplus quite easily.

* a satellite modem arrangement hooked to a laptop. Not super common, but they are out there. From there you could get on FR24 (for example) and get exact GPS coordinates for the flight you're trying to chase down. Or, you could just have someone radio coordinates to you from the ground. Radio equipment with the necessary range is easily available.

* a portable ADS-B receiver to receive live data from the flight you want to shadow

Difficult? sure, but you only have to succeed once and you have time to make it happen...

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:19:54]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-18 17:22:53 and read 25373 times.

Forgive me, because I don't know how the SATCOM signals work.

When can the SATCOM signals be detected?.
What does it depend on?
Could be disabled by the (supposed) hijackers? I suppose yes, and also they would choose that, but I would like to confirm.

Regards

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: valleyflyer
Posted 2014-03-18 17:23:18 and read 25459 times.

Why does everyone argue a fire is the only explanation of a malfunction? Airbus had tons of problems with computer issues where screens where going blank mid-flight dozens of times. In a computerized aircraft like the 777, something might have just gone horribly wrong from a software / hardware perspective. Without attitude / airspeed / altitude indicators / navigation over the ocean when it is pitch black? I am not surprised that would end up in a roller coaster ride with seemingly erratic maneuvers.

I think this is a lot more probably than some crazy hijacking conspiracy, as much as I would like them all to be alive.

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:25:03]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Rearviewmirror
Posted 2014-03-18 17:23:47 and read 25462 times.

Hi all...

Been following the discussion on the forum for a while now and was finally motivated to join to share a piece of news I haven't seen discussed yet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ulf-Thailand-tried-stay-radar.html

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1107602

Lat/Lon shows it as here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/11%C2%B034'38.3%22N+92%C2%B040'51.3%22E/@11.577303,92.680922,6z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

If this is verified, could give some credence to the SW arc. It's on South Andaman, close to Port Blair.

Can anyone with some FR24 knowledge run it back and see if anything else would have been in the area at the time of the capture (Weds 12th March, 4:49AM)?

Keep up the good work. It's humbling seeing informed members of the public giving up so much time and effort to try and figure this out using a rigorous fact based approach.

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:25:50]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-18 17:24:31 and read 25328 times.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 136):

I can appreciate your discounting his theory outright, because he failed to check facts first before publishing his theory, I just cut him some slack because he is a pilot first and an amateur journalist, second, and he did qualify what he said regarding other in flight fires with an "I believe".

I did however find his observation that MH370 left hand turn, took the aircraft towards Palau Langkawi, a Malaysian Airport with a 13,000ft runway with zero obstacles to the runway, interesting, in the context of an emergency scenario playing out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 17:25:20 and read 25290 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 151):
There is no real point in releasing all the other data as news agencies and people will get confused and think the plane could be anywhere along the huge cake slices when in reality only the final ping really matters.

Granted only the last ping really matters for SAR. But do you know the margin of error across the corridor? Were all the pings by chance in the "official" last position corridor? In which case, why fly such an annoying route? Can you program your FMS to fly northward while staying at 2400nm from 0 N, 64,5 W?

Wouldn't just one corridor in the middle of the flight be of interest to you, just to kill so many speculative routes?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:25:52 and read 25297 times.

I am sure these two thoughts have been mentioned before, but I would like to say two things because they are important to me.

1) I think it is ridiculous that people find it suspicious that the captain had a flight simulator in his house. He was a pilot and he loved aviation. As someone who uses X-Plane on my computer, it is very alarming that some would jump to conclusions. It is even worse that it is still being discussed even though so far authorities have not found anything suspicious. It would be completely different if he practiced this on his simulator.

2) How in the world can people judge who did this by the two words the first officer told ATC "Alright, goodnight."? I do not understand how those words could lead investigators to who caused this and why.


On another note, was testing ever done on the slick that was discovered in the Indian Ocean?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 17:27:03 and read 25180 times.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 155):
* a satellite modem arrangement hooked to a laptop. Not super common, but they are out there. From there you could get on FR24 (for example) and get exact GPS coordinates for the flight you're trying to chase down. Or, you could just have someone radio coordinates to you from the ground. Radio equipment with the necessary range is easily available.

I'm sure inmarsat and iridium can see what websites your going to as they would be your ISP and that would definitely look strange for an airplane to need to check on FR24 while in flight.

The whole problem with the shadowing thing is that while it is technically possible to maintain or even start it you would have to be very lucky and the longer you fly in the shadow of another plane the more time you expose yourself to being discovered or cause a mid-air collision. Add on the fact that when you break off (which has to occur at some point) if your over land your still highly likely to be discovered again and would be extremely suspicious as well.

All we need to wait for is confirmation of one sat area or the other as the southern area would put that to rest.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 156):

Forgive me, because I don't know how the SATCOM signals work.

When can the SATCOM signals be detected?.
What does it depend on?
Could be disabled by the (supposed) hijackers? I suppose yes, and also they would choose that, but I would like to confirm.

Regards

SATCOM signals from the plane apparently occur roughly hourly as a keep alive message that the modem is still online but not really doing much. If the hijackers knew about it they would have likely turned it off well before but the endpoint likely is the endpoint of the flight as once the plane hits the water/ground it would not likely keep transmitting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:29:47 and read 25066 times.

Quoting valleyflyer (Reply 157):

That is a very interesting thought and one that I did not think of. It is probable, but would that have caused the transponders to be turned off one at a time rather than both at once?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:30:41 and read 24908 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 161):
How in the world can people judge who did this by the two words the first officer told ATC "Alright, goodnight."? I do not understand how those words could lead investigators to who caused this and why.

Because if those words were said after ACARS was disabled, it would suggest that whoever said those words was in on the hijacking of the plane. Of course, we don't currently know precisely when ACARS was disabled.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:33:02 and read 24715 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 164):

OK, thank you. I thought they were listening for tone of voice or something like that.

Quoting hivue (Reply 164):
Of course, we don't currently know precisely when ACARS was disabled.

That is also why I find it frustrating that they are trying to judge based off the two words. They are putting the cart ahead of the horse, but I guess they have to in this situation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 17:33:05 and read 24754 times.

Quoting Rearviewmirror (Reply 158):
Been following the discussion on the forum for a while now and was finally motivated to join to share a piece of news I haven't seen discussed yet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ulf-Thailand-tried-stay-radar.html

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1107602

Lat/Lon shows it as here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/11%C2%B034'38.3%22N+92%C2%B040'51.3%22E/@11.577303,92.680922,6z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

If this is verified, could give some credence to the SW arc. It's on South Andaman, close to Port Blair.

Can anyone with some FR24 knowledge run it back and see if anything else would have been in the area at the time of the capture (Weds 12th March, 4:49AM)?

Keep up the good work. It's humbling seeing informed members of the public giving up so much time and effort to try and figure this out using a rigorous fact based approach.

that plane is flying and if you look closely it's way above ground, there are numerous like those on googles pictures flying

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-18 17:33:32 and read 24657 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 162):

Ok. Thanks

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:34:05 and read 24575 times.

Quoting valleyflyer (Reply 157):

Why does everyone argue a fire is the only explanation? Airbus had tons of problems with computer issues where screens where going blank mid-flight dozens of times. In a computerized aircraft like the 777, something might have just gone horribly wrong from a software / hardware perspective. Without attitude / airspeed / altitude indicators / navigation over the ocean when it is pitch black? I am not surprised that would end up in a roller coaster ride with seemingly erratic maneuvers.

Of course a major flight control system or instrumentation malfunction might be the explanation, but apart perhaps from fire, this seems exceedingly unlikely as in three decades since the 320 went into service no FBW airliner has ever had a flight control systems malfunction so severe it crashed because of it.

Even if all the fancy hardware and software died, the pilots would still have had the backup instrumentation which is independent of the main instrumentation.

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:39:24]

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:39:43]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 17:34:30 and read 24657 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 160):
Wouldn't just one corridor in the middle of the flight be of interest to you, just to kill so many speculative routes?

No it isn't interesting because it would just draw a big cake slice between the last known radar position and the other areas. There isn't any point into that as the satcom pings would tell you nothing else and releasing a picture with that shape would lead to highly confusing media reports.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:36:52 and read 24418 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 165):
That is also why I find it frustrating that they are trying to judge based off the two words.

I think many of us are frustrated by the confusing ACARS shutdown information. The Malay PM at first said it definitely was shut down before the "all right goodnight" but the Malays backtracked on that a couple of days later.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-18 17:37:22 and read 24479 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 165):
That is also why I find it frustrating that they are trying to judge based off the two words. They are putting the cart ahead of the horse, but I guess they have to in this situation.

Investigators thought the ACARS was disabled before the pilots final words. IMO the two words you're referring to is no longer relevant since new info was revealed indicating the ACARS was shut off after the pilot said, "Alright, good night".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:38:24 and read 24498 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 169):
a picture with that shape would lead to highly confusing media reports.

Yeah. What a scary thought. 

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:39:18 and read 24294 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 171):
since new info was revealed indicating the ACARS was shut off after the pilot said, "Alright, good night".

Source?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2014-03-18 17:40:15 and read 24386 times.

FWIW Les Abend (a check 777 captain at AA and author of "Flying"'s 'Jumpseat' column) doesn't have detailed knowledge of the E/E bay.

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/a...ergency-after-all?d=MjgwOTcyMTk1S0

Video is at the bottom.

I have had the privilege of meeting him and long time reader of his column. IMO definitely one of the top aviators out there.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Rearviewmirror
Posted 2014-03-18 17:40:54 and read 24197 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 166):
that plane is flying and if you look closely it's way above ground, there are numerous like those on googles pictures flying

Yup, I didn't mean "it's crashed, there it is" more, were any other 777-200s flying over South Andaman at that time? And also, does it look close enough to the profile of a 777-200 (the wings maybe aren't back-swept enough?)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 17:41:59 and read 24177 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 142):
I read an alarming story

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/articl...fficking-camp-may-face-deportation

"These people will refuse to acknowledge Chinese citizenship to avoid being forcibly repatriated," said Kayum Masimov, president of the Montreal-based Uyghur Canadian Society. "They will simply refuse to talk. They fear for their safety."

Human Rights Watch spokesman Phil Robertson said when Uygurs "try to flee overseas, Beijing often pursues them relentlessly". He added: "Over the past few years, there have been several serious incidents in Cambodia, Malaysia and Thailand where China has used its influence to demand Uygur refugees and asylum seekers be returned against their will to China."


, it's just a wild guess I am throwing as a theory. could Malaysia forcefully deported Uygurs back to china and these pax acted and were the ones committed suicide rather that go back to China?

I just want to bring this up, didn't see anyone gave it a thought, what if were deportees that didn't want to go back and attacked flight and they rather commit suicide than go back to China for tortures and wanted to avenge Malyasia for doing so by taking down its plane

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:47:06]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 17:41:59 and read 24276 times.

Quoting chumley (Reply 89):
Side note: Who determines the quantity of fuel to be loaded? Can the pilot change/update the amount at the last minute? And if so, wouldn't there still be very specific documentation of this?

The fuel qty was stated by MAS/DCA . What if that's not correct?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:42:28 and read 24196 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 171):
MO the two words you're referring to is no longer relevant since new info was revealed indicating the ACARS was shut off after the pilot said, "Alright, good night".

CNN was still talking about it last night, which is why I brought it up.

[quote=hivue,reply=170]I think many of us are frustrated by the confusing ACARS shutdown information. The Malay PM at first said it definitely was shut down before the "all right goodnight" but the Malays backtracked on that a couple of days later.

Yes, because we have no idea when it was turned off and won't know until the black boxes are recovered. They probably have no idea when they were turned off.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: valleyflyer
Posted 2014-03-18 17:43:14 and read 24157 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 168):
Even if all the fancy hardware and software died, the pilots would still have had the backup instrumentation which is independent of the main instrumentation.

But aren't the backup instruments on the 777 glass and not physical?

The Airbus issues mostly happened when it was daytime and nice weather, they could have gone very wrong in bad weather/at night.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-18 17:44:21 and read 24005 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 169):
No it isn't interesting

Ok, I give up. I guess I am just more curious than you are.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:46:18 and read 23811 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 180):
Ok, I give up. I guess I am just more curious than you are.

Don't give up. We are all putting out new ideas and then discussing them in addition to discussing/adding on to ideas that have already been put out there. Don't let one person's opinion discourage you.

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:48:41]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:46:29 and read 23831 times.

Quoting valleyflyer (Reply 179):
But aren't the backup instruments on the 777 glass and not physical?

Glass is a physical substance (the last time I checked).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 17:48:35 and read 23688 times.

After 12 days nothing is far fetched

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-18 17:49:03 and read 23686 times.

Quoting valleyflyer (Reply 179):
But aren't the backup instruments on the 777 glass and not physical?

So what? It's independent of the main instrumentation.

You're saying that two major power systems failed simultaneously *and* independently, by chance?

If that's true, then we should all play the lottery tonight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:49:17 and read 23735 times.

Quoting valleyflyer (Reply 179):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 168):
Even if all the fancy hardware and software died, the pilots would still have had the backup instrumentation which is independent of the main instrumentation.

But aren't the backup instruments on the 777 glass and not physical?

The backups are glass on most modern airliners, but that's just the display. A screen is actually much more reliable than a mechanical dial, which is why screens are used.

The point is that they are independent from the mains, including IIRC independent power. A failure of the main instrumentation would not affect the backups.

Quoting valleyflyer (Reply 179):
The Airbus issues mostly happened when it was daytime and nice weather, they could have gone very wrong in bad weather/at night.

Which Airbus issues are you referring to? I know there have been a few flight control issues, but AFAIK none of them killed the instrumentation or the radios so the planes could be flown manually with maintained comms.

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:49:58]

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:58:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:49:34 and read 23671 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 183):
After 12 days nothing is far fetched

I agree, anything is still possible. As was mentioned multiples times in one of the earlier parts, this keeps getting crazier.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2014-03-18 17:49:40 and read 23662 times.

Quoting rebr (Reply 62):
This theory doesn't make any sense to me. Were they counting on their luck? Even the slightest delay in KUL or in the case of SQ68 in SIN and this wouldn't work. Not to mention it is extremely hard to fly in the shadow of another aircraft in the dark of the night with TCAS disabled....

With out ADS-B (which they might have had a portable one so that isn't even confirmed), I think it is easier to spot aircraft at night due to the lights, especially if you know a general area to look.

Quoting woodentom (Reply 70):
Can an aircraft fly 1000ft below another and radar think it one plane if one of them has turned off the transmitter?

A KC135 refueling pilot detailed that you could fly 500 below and a 1/2 mile back and it wouldn't get picked up on radar as two and it would be pretty easy to maintain.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 91):

Thanks rc135x for your insightful reply posted in part 33 reply 164, regarding MH370 shadowing SQ68. Sorry for the late reply, I was catching some ZZZZ's soon after my posting.

I agee. It was very helpful.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 128):
This theory gets my vote, my only reservation, historically, how many landing gear fires have been extinguished while in flight?

But no wreckage. That's my problem with this. Also, if you really had a fire, you would take it off auto-pilot OR if you could see, you would keep auto pilot on, but you wouldn't plug in 29,500.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 155):
surplus night vision goggles. The other aircraft you are chasing has at least two massive sources of heat mounted to it and would probably show up very nicely on night vision goggles. You can get these on the internet or older models surplus quite easily

I didn't think about night vision goggles, but that is interesting and would be very helpful I imagine.

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 155):
a portable ADS-B receiver to receive live data from the flight you want to shadow

I had thought of this one. I think it makes a lot of sense actually if one buys the intercept theory.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-18 17:50:24 and read 23581 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 182):

In case you've been living in an avgeek bubble, "glass cockpit" means electronic instrumentation.

[Edited 2014-03-18 17:50:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:50:25 and read 23563 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 178):
They probably have no idea when they were turned off.

Between 01:07L and 01:37L.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:51:31 and read 23559 times.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 188):
Unless you've been living in an avgeek bubble, "glass cockpit" means electronic instrumentation.

What's not physical about that?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:52:36 and read 23378 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 189):
Between 01:07L and 01:37L.

Thank you. I should have said no exact idea.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: N328KF
Posted 2014-03-18 17:52:49 and read 23423 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 190):
What's not physical about that?

It's just an expression, OK? Glass meaning the CRT, and then LCD screens.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-18 17:53:30 and read 23434 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 187):
But no wreckage.

That is my problem with a fire theory as well. I would think that we would have seen burned debris by now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 17:58:11 and read 23009 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 190):

Quoting N328KF (Reply 188):
Unless you've been living in an avgeek bubble, "glass cockpit" means electronic instrumentation.

What's not physical about that?
Quoting N328KF (Reply 192):

Quoting hivue (Reply 190):
What's not physical about that?

It's just an expression, OK? Glass meaning the CRT, and then LCD screens.

Because glass instrumentation does not have physical dials. The information display is "insubstantial" if you will, as opposed to solid dials.

Traditional instruments are often referred to as "round gauge" or "steam".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: flyingjhawk
Posted 2014-03-18 18:00:39 and read 22926 times.

Long time lurker, extremely infrequent poster. So I am not sure if this link has been posted, and I profusely apologize if it has, but I ran across this as a possible explanation.

http://m.smh.com.au/world/missing-ma...er-boeing-777s-20140312-hvhqz.html

BTW, I posted this in another forum and the link didn't work but copy and past does. Again, my apologies if this is a lame post according to a.net standards but as the rest of us, I am fascinated by this incident.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 18:01:29 and read 22862 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 193):
I would think that we would have seen burned debris by now.

or at least a few mangosteens. http://english.astroawani.com/videos...main-bulk-in-the-mh370-cargo-27768

Is it normal to carry that many fruits in a passenger jet?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:02:13 and read 22734 times.

Quoting flyingjhawk (Reply 195):

Long time lurker, extremely infrequent poster. So I am not sure if this link has been posted, and I profusely apologize if it has, but I ran across this as a possible explanation.

http://m.smh.com.au/world/missing-ma...er-boeing-777s-20140312-hvhqz.html

BTW, I posted this in another forum and the link didn't work but copy and past does. Again, my apologies if this is a lame post according to a.net standards but as the rest of us, I am fascinated by this incident.

This was debunked a couple of thousand posts ago. The airworthiness directive does not apply to this aircraft as it does not have this type of antenna.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: osloflyer
Posted 2014-03-18 18:04:01 and read 22727 times.

This mystery baffles me, but I got a couple of questions.

1. Where did the aircraft come in from, prior segment to this flight ?

2. Can the known radar data from the climb out be used to determine how heavy the aircraft was during takeoff ?

3. Could someone have hidden in the aircrafts electronic bay and controlled the aircraft from there, and overridden pilot inputs?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 18:06:23 and read 22399 times.

Quoting osloflyer (Reply 198):

I read many threads ago that initial climb was heavier for a PEK weight, the airplane came from HKG

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-18 18:06:45 and read 22485 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 196):

not sure about Mangosteens, but Banana's can be extremely volatile whilst ripening.

over 20 years ago in my insurance days, we had a ripening shed explode from the gases given off by the Bananas.

Any fruit growers/aviators out there confirm?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: BG777300ER
Posted 2014-03-18 18:06:46 and read 22497 times.

https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z13cv1gohsmbv5jmy221vrfyiz3vdhbop04

interesting point, not sure if it has been posted

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: flyingjhawk
Posted 2014-03-18 18:07:58 and read 22597 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 197):
This was debunked a couple of thousand posts ago. The airworthiness directive does not apply to this aircraft as it does not have this type of antenna.

Yeah. It's hard to keep up with these thousands upon thousands of posts. I figured it would be quicker for someone to instantaneously correct me. I'll go back to lurking!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-18 18:08:49 and read 22475 times.

wait, the jet was turned around before the "good night" message? when did this come out?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-18 18:09:19 and read 22490 times.

This is a question for any Military Pilots or Tanker Pilots out there. From your experience, how difficult is it to rendesvous with a Military tanker, factoring in that both lead plane and chase plane are working together to meet up in a preset point in space and time.

Now consider the scenario involving a B777-200ER trying to intercept another airliner, in this case SQ68, another airliner (Can anyone confirm it was a B777?) lets assume it is a B777 for now.

What is the procedure that would need to be followed to execute a rendesvous, given that the lead plane will be flying at speed and not slowing down for the chase plane and the chase plane would have to execute a timely turn prior to intercepting the lead plane. Is this how the military do it?

Given that a B777 is not a fighter and cannot accelerate to catch up, because there is no way of preplaning this unless you use a simulator (I know Captain has a home built B777 sim) and receive instructions from someone in the know and have the co-operation of the lead plane, I imagine timing would be everything to make this shadowing scenario work in the real world.

In case you haven't already guessed I'm still a skeptic.

Thanks in advance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-18 18:14:23 and read 22061 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 174):
FWIW Les Abend (a check 777 captain at AA and author of "Flying"'s 'Jumpseat' column) doesn't have detailed knowledge of the E/E bay.

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/a...Tk1S0
Quote:

“I’ve always asserted that there was some type of mechanical issue that might have progressively gotten worse and worse, where the pilots were trying to go to a checklist and determine what their problem was by troubleshooting it,” Abend told Anderson Cooper on CNN last night.

I dare say the vast majority of people operating/maintaing heavy iron will agree it's still a valid possibility. People who are claiming that it's absolutely 100% some Tintin plot, frankly, are blowing smoke. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but to discount a mechanical issue solely based on the flimsy and rapidly changing evidence we've been given is a bad idea.

Could it be a hijacking? Of course. Should it be explored as a possibility? Of course. Do I think so? Still not convinced. Won't be until there's harder evidence. Will I blow off the mechanical angle because of some of the dots don't line up? Absolutely not.

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:15:28]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-18 18:14:31 and read 22076 times.

I've never ever seen a Primate explode, so I'm ruling out exploding banana scenario for now.  

Edit : Add Smile!

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:16:08]

Edit : Added Banana for context .


[Edited 2014-03-18 18:24:05]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:14:50 and read 22094 times.

Quoting osloflyer (Reply 198):
1. Where did the aircraft come in from, prior segment to this flight ?
HKG, and KUL before that.

Quoting osloflyer (Reply 198):
2. Can the known radar data from the climb out be used to determine how heavy the aircraft was during takeoff ?

No.

Quoting osloflyer (Reply 198):
3. Could someone have hidden in the aircrafts electronic bay and controlled the aircraft from there, and overridden pilot inputs?

Very much in theory. However it seems rather much "direct to DVD action movie".

Quoting flyingjhawk (Reply 202):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 197):
This was debunked a couple of thousand posts ago. The airworthiness directive does not apply to this aircraft as it does not have this type of antenna.

Yeah. It's hard to keep up with these thousands upon thousands of posts. I figured it would be quicker for someone to instantaneously correct me. I'll go back to lurking!

No worries. However I would urge you to at least look up rcair1's latest "Sanity Check" as it contains everything you need to get up to speed. In this case: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:16:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:15:32 and read 22057 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 203):
wait, the jet was turned around before the "good night" message?

Where did you see that?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rampart
Posted 2014-03-18 18:16:10 and read 21887 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 161):
On another note, was testing ever done on the slick that was discovered in the Indian Ocean?

Yes. It was found to be oil or fuel from a ship.

-Rampart

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: flyingjhawk
Posted 2014-03-18 18:16:26 and read 21950 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 204):
Given that a B777 is not a fighter and cannot accelerate to catch up, because there is no way of preplaning this unless you use a simulator (I know Captain has a home built B777 sim) and receive instructions from someone in the know and have the co-operation of the lead plane, I imagine timing would be everything to make this shadowing scenario work in the real world.

Yeah, I find this scenario highly unlikely. If MH370 was delayed for some reason wouldn't it make that rendezvous extremely difficult if not impossible?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 18:19:27 and read 21795 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 207):
Quoting osloflyer (Reply 198):
2. Can the known radar data from the climb out be used to determine how heavy the aircraft was during takeoff ?

No.

some people used fr24 and flightaware and from the graph said that plane initial climb was slower that it should be for a PEK flight weight

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-18 18:20:25 and read 21592 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 206):

what? Primate  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-18 18:20:40 and read 21743 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 208):

cnn and fox said it turned around 12 mins before the final message, "Goodnight".

sorry, they said it was programmed to do the u-turn 12 mins prior to final contact with the pilot.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...grammed-signoff-sources-say-n56151

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:22:14]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2014-03-18 18:21:21 and read 21628 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 211):

Could be all the mangosteens   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:22:26 and read 21470 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 211):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 207):
Quoting osloflyer (Reply 198):
2. Can the known radar data from the climb out be used to determine how heavy the aircraft was during takeoff ?

No.

some people used fr24 and flightaware and from the graph said that plane initial climb was slower that it should be for a PEK flight weight

That seems like an extremely dodgy conclusion based on unverified data that is known to frequently be inaccurate.

For example, it could be an ATC restriction or atmospheric factors.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:23:01 and read 21434 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 213):
cnn and fox said it turned around 12 mins before the final message, "Goodnight".

But that's before the transponder went dead. That would have rung some bells with Singapore SSR, right?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 18:23:20 and read 21449 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 214):

talking about mangosteens, do they need dry ice????

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 18:24:12 and read 21319 times.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 180):

Not sure how that has anything to do with being curious. I specifically said,

Quoting tomlee (Reply 169):
There isn't any point into that as the satcom pings would tell you nothing else and releasing a picture with that shape would lead to highly confusing media reports.

There is a difference between being curious and rampant unfounded speculation. See taking apart electronics, reverse engineering firmware, and the such is being curious in my books. Releasing information which doesn't help the search, doesn't add anything to the existing public knowledge, and is highly likely to cause more confusing media reports is not my definition of being curious.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 18:24:30 and read 21370 times.

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 200):

It is categorized as Ethylene-emitting fruit. One more theory - exploding mangosteen?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:25:23 and read 21497 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 213):
sorry, they said it was programmed to do the u-turn 12 mins prior to final contact with the pilot.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...56151

Wow. Now that's interesting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:29:50 and read 21066 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 220):
Wow. Now that's interesting.

Or could it just be the NBC "source" just making a WAG?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 18:31:37 and read 20918 times.

I raised 2 theories, have not seen given any thoughts

1. instead of pilot suicide, how about pax(s) suicide, i.e deportees to China?
2. no one and no talks about a Russian and 2 Ukrainians onboard, no reports on them or families or if passports stolen or anything else, especially with Crimea coincidence

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rickabone
Posted 2014-03-18 18:32:15 and read 20774 times.

So if the new timeline is correct and the FMS was reprogrammed for the turn prior to the last ACARS transmission and prior to it being shut off it looks like an act of one of the pilots (co-pilot if it was his voice on the recording). Would the data also have been transmitted about the entire route that was input? Or are they saying that only the turn itself was input and there were no other waypoints plugged in... Or are they saying that ACARS only transmits limited data and that info is not available to them, but somehow they know it was reprogrammed to make the turn?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-18 18:32:19 and read 20869 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 217):

not sure about dry ice...BUT

Mangosteens are the only fruit banned from airline cabins, because of it's overwhelming and foul smell. It has been described as having the smell of rotten onions, over-ripe cheese or even sewerage.

i'm not suggesting there was a leak from the cargo hold into the cabin, but it is interesting. well i think so anyway.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 65Mustang
Posted 2014-03-18 18:33:14 and read 20727 times.

I originally started this as a short post but ended up with one a little longer than intended. Reading a lot of the previous post has fostered a few questions that I think are pertinent and that I have not found conclusive answers to. This is more of a brainstorming of ideas and a list of things to think about.

Does this particular T7 have the reinforced cockpit door? I have read that they are mandatory in the US, but are not in other parts of the world.

At what time did the a/c reach its cruising altitude? I think I read somewhere that it had been at cruising altitude for about 5 minutes before it went black.

At what time did the pilots turn off the seat belt sign? Was it ever turned off?

Is the data that indicates FL45 FL23 and a 40000fpm drop accurate? Is that data transmitted from the aircraft or determined by ground radar? If this is accurate data, I think if you figure out why this happened, you will solve the puzzle.

Regarding the 8:11am sitcom ping. We keep seeing a 2d map with an arc that indicates where the plane was. Shouldn't this be thought of in a 3d context? Imagine a sphere around the immersat satellite. Wouldn't the aircraft be located at some point on the surface of a sphere bisected by a plane running from about 40000ft altitude to the ground?

When a pilot enters waypoints, does each one have to be entered individually or are there macros or sets of waypoints that can be entered with one button? Are previous sets of waypoints stored in the computer that can be recalled and used?

Did MH370 fly waypoint to waypoint or are the waypoints simply along the route the plane was flying?

What happens to a T7 at cruising altitude with no pilots and no autopilot? Does it plunge to the ground or does the computer try to fly it? (addressed in the updated sanity check)

Does daylight savings time have any effect on the reported local times?

Has it been conclusively determined that there was not a shipment of Lithium batteries in the cargo hold?

Is there a common point in the cargo hold that if damaged can short ACARS and the transponder?


ELT
Is the life raft/emergency slide accessible while in flight? I read it is located in the door in the "side bustle". Can this be opened by one of the FAs or PAX? If it is, can the ELTs on the raft be retrieved? How is the life raft ELT activated - by a button or by impact? Once activated, can the signal be seen at 29500? Are MA FAs trained about how to access a ELT in an emergency?

PILOTS
What is the Captains history with allowing access to the cockpit? Does he leave the door open? Is it locked? I think interviews with all fight attendants that he has worked with during the past 3 months could answer these questions.

When was the last time the Captain slept?

Was he a substitution at the last minute? Why? Has the originally scheduled pilot, Anas Mazlin, been interviewed? MAS denies the roster switch. The facebook page of the wife of Anas Mazlin has been cancelled. (http://devel.malaysiandigest.com/news/493357-mas-official-denies-pilot-swap-in-mh370-roster.html)

CELL PHONES
There has been a lot of talk about cell phones. I have not seen any mention of the possibility of a cell phone or computer in checked baggage trying to connect to a network. Devices in checked baggage would have been safe from possible hijackers. With so many passengers I expect that there is a probable chance that there were devices left on in checked bags. If the plane was ever within range of a tower )via low flying to avoid radar or landing) I find it extremely hard to believe that there would have been 0 transmissions between the peoples devices and a cellular network. That means, if investigators can obtain phone records from all devices possessed by people on the plane and then if there is no data to indicate the devices were within cellular coverage area, we might be able to determine where the plane wasn't(up until the estimated time of battery life).

THEORIES

1. Political stunt/suicide by cop -- The pilot was a vocal critic of the current Malaysian government and posted many rants against them on Facebook. Given the overturn of Anwar's conviction earlier in the day, the pilot could have decided to do something about it. What if the MO was to embarrass the current regime and to get the plane carrying 154 Chinese to be shot down by the Malaysian government. When that failed, he just set autopilot to fly the plane until it ran out of fuel. Are there any ground based defenses along the suspected route of the plane? Is there anything with the altitude, waypoints, or behavior of the plane that indicates that the pilot was trying to disguise it as a military aircraft?

2. Hack - I have seen several experts say the flight computers cannot be hacked and there is no way that this could happen. I think if humans can put a man on the moon, a flight computer could be hacked. Could the plane have been hacked by a passenger during flight, someone somewhere in the world on the ground, or was a virus planted in the computer before the flight? There were many engineers on board that worked for Freescale Semiconductor. Did Freescale Semiconductor have any military contracts? Are any Freescale Semiconductor chips used in the construction of a Boeing 777? From Wikipedia:

Freescale Semiconductor, Inc. is an American company that produces and designs embedded hardware, with 17 billion semiconductor chips in use around the world. The company focuses on the automotive, consumer, industrial and networking markets with its product portfolio including microprocessors, microcontrollers, digital signal processors, digital signal controllers, sensors, RF power ICs and power management ICs. In addition, the company offers software and development tools to support product development.

3. Fire - It is a known issue that Lithium batteries can burst into flames when exposed to air. They will burn until burnt out and fire suppression will not work. This has happened several times before. If there was a fire in the cargo bay could the acars system short before smoke/fire detectors send alarms? Knowing there was a fire in the cargo hold but not the source, would this pilot make and ascent to try to put it out? (one answer part 34 post 260)

4. Collision - Could there have been a mid air collision with a military aircraft or drone from another government on a covert operation? Meteor?

5. Unknown aircraft failure - Some kind of failure left the pilots incapacitated and with a reinforced cockpit door, nobody was able to get inside. The plane was on autopilot or computer flown until the fuel was exhausted.

6. Pilot Error - I think this is the most plausible. It appears the captain was exhausted and was not scheduled for this flight. There are reports that he was on vacation and was a substitute at the last minute. MAS has denied this. Could there have been a medical issue with the captain such as a seizure or heart attack? Step by step, what is the procedure if the Captain intended to get some sleep? Exactly what would he be doing procedurally from about 1:15 to 1:35? What would he be turning off and what would he be turning on?

7. Failed or successful Hijack - Somali pirates are pretty brazen. They have attacked and taken over massive cargo ships with skiffs. Read the Wiki about them. They collect an average of $4.7 million per ship. Since the attack on the Maersk Alabama, thousands of pirates have been caught and are in prison. The Malaysian navy has caught many of them and they are held in Malaysian prisons. The success of anti-piracy measures has lead to an increase in land based attacks has caused them to go further and further out to sea looking for targets. Ship piracy has gone from several hundred attacks in 2010 to 2 in 2013. Maybe a few of them figured out how to hijack a plane a forced the pilots to fly somewhere. I am not saying the plane actually made it to Somalia and that is where SAR should look. This theory is that there was an attempt by Somali pirates. They fail all the time. Maybe the pilots won the struggle but were fatally wounded. If the seatbelt light had been turned off about 5 min prior to the dramatic turn, it would lend credence to a hijack by one of the PAX.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 18:34:21 and read 20678 times.

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 224):

Worse than durians? Anyway, new theory from dailymail pointing to hidden explosive device in the mangosteen. http://malaysia-chronicle.com/index....cargo-hold?&Itemid=2#axzz2wMrliUr1

And interestingly the cargo manifest is yet to be released.

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:35:45]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: CaptainKramer
Posted 2014-03-18 18:35:22 and read 20713 times.

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 212):

Just free associating. It's 1.30am, I'm signing off for now.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-18 18:36:09 and read 20588 times.

Quoting flyingjhawk (Reply 210):

Yeah, I find this scenario highly unlikely. If MH370 was delayed for some reason wouldn't it make that rendezvous extremely difficult if not impossible?

Have you checked in some flight tracker that they didn't have other posible "wagons" in similar routes to cling to?
(I haven't, but given how well the shadowing explains many things, I wouldn't wonder to discover they had one or more B-plans for that matter)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-18 18:36:53 and read 20583 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 222):
1. instead of pilot suicide, how about pax(s) suicide, i.e deportees to China?

"How?" is the big question. Also, I doubt a bunch of asylum seekers would just decide to kill a bunch of random innocent, people

Quoting capri (Reply 222):
2. no one and no talks about a Russian and 2 Ukrainians onboard, no reports on them or families or if passports stolen or anything else, especially with Crimea coincidence

How would this further either side's cause?

Doubt both of them

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-18 18:37:27 and read 20632 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 156):
When can the SATCOM signals be detected?.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 197):
This was debunked a couple of thousand posts ago. The airworthiness directive does not apply to this aircraft as it does not have this type of antenna.
Quoting flyingjhawk (Reply 202):
Yeah. It's hard to keep up with these thousands upon thousands of posts. I figured it would be quicker for someone to instantaneously correct me. I'll go back to lurking!

Can I recommend you read the sanity checks - current one

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 49):
Sanity Check

These questions and just a few more are discussed there

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-18 18:38:21 and read 20439 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 226):

i've always thought of them the same durians/mangosteens...anyway they both smell bloody horrible and stain skin and clothes. if one was squashed during loading the smell would get worse, i cannot imagine what 3-4 tons would be like seeping through the fuselage

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-18 18:40:08 and read 20373 times.

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 224):
Mangosteens are the only fruit banned from airline cabins, because of it's overwhelming and foul smell. It has been described as having the smell of rotten onions, over-ripe cheese or even sewerage.

Think you mean Durian. Mangosteen is small like a apple with a passion fruit color, Durian is big green and looks prickly, about the size of rockmelon or a small watermelon.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2014-03-18 18:40:10 and read 20302 times.

So many theories and speculation that seem to defy common sense.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
And as I've said before, I think the guys at Boeing would have mentioned this days ago if there was a fire that could have more or less replicated what MH370 did. That is barring any crazy conspiracy theory or Boeing being silent while they connect the dots.

Even if a fire started, I would imagine that ACARS would have documented something, however small, before it stopped sending information. Unless there was an explosion first that took out ACARS instantaneously followed by a fire, I just don't see how a fire would go totally undetected. And if there was an explosion strong enough to take out ACARS instantaneously, and/or a fire, it probably would have taken out a lot of other systems, so it seems very odd that the plane could nonetheless fly for another 7 hours.

Quoting kevinkevin (Reply 53):
Pelau Perak was this point hence the right turn to intercept SQ68. Before now I don't think there's any other theory/explanation that can explain MH370's movements after MH370 said "Goodnight" to the Malaysia ATC.
Quoting seatran (Reply 74):
but I'll say that it'd be difficult for a crew that was untrained and inexperienced in rendezvous procedures to accomplish a successful rendezvous esp at night and esp if there was any weather around. It wouldn't be impossible, but definitely difficult.

If the transponder is off, can the cockpit still receive specific information about the exact location of other aircraft in the vicinity? Again, it seems to defy common sense that a commercial airline pilot could go searching for -- and find -- a specific airplane in flight - especially at night, without some GPS or radar assistance.

Quoting aseem (Reply 84):
while it was on the ground. If so, why couldn't the pilots have overruled it??

If the plane had landed, I would think that someone would have tried to make a call on their cell phone. Or if the passengers had been incapacitated, I imagine that at least some phones would send some sort of transmission especially if on roaming. Even Al Qaida use cell phones.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 121):
but you can be sure that the fueling company would document any extra fuel that was loaded onto an aircraft.

Especially since Jet A isn't free. The airline knows exactly how much fuel was loaded into the tanks because they paid the tab-which means that all the investigators know exactly how much fuel was loaded.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 18:40:13 and read 20340 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 220):
Wow. Now that's interesting.

It would help stop all this crazy speculation if they someone released the already transmitted in the clear ACARS data (they should start adding ACARS receivers to the public FR24 sites so we can watch all the messages fly around.)

Need more radio enthusiasts in the world. But with SDRs becoming more common and cheap coverage will probably improve a lot in the future. ( http://www.hamradioscience.com/addin...er-using-multiple-rtl2832u-sticks/ ) I should add some to Malaysia, Philippines next time I visit family.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 18:41:47 and read 20318 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 232):
Think you mean Durian. Mangosteen is small like a apple with a passion fruit color, Durian is big green and looks prickly, about the size of rockmelon or a small watermelon.

Yeah I believe the saying is, durian smells like hell tastes like heaven (Still can't stand the smell and it really can soak into everything even nearby plastics).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-18 18:42:34 and read 20195 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 222):

I raised 2 theories, have not seen given any thoughts

1. instead of pilot suicide, how about pax(s) suicide, i.e deportees to China?
2. no one and no talks about a Russian and 2 Ukrainians onboard, no reports on them or families or if passports stolen or anything else, especially with Crimea coincidence

I can assure you that every passenger on MH370 has had their background checked, re-checked, and checked again by a multitude of intel agencies from multiple countries. They probably know what meal each passenger ate the morning of that flight so if there are any connections to a terrorist orgs or passengers that are part of a particular movement, said agencies will know about it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:43:01 and read 20173 times.

Quoting 65Mustang (Reply 225):
When a pilot enters waypoints, does each one have to be entered individually or are there macros or sets of waypoints that can be entered with one button? Are previous sets of waypoints stored in the computer that can be recalled and used?

There are "company routes" containing multiple waypoints can be selected.

If memory serves you can also save routes up to a point. You can save alternate routes that can be called up with a few presses.

Quoting 65Mustang (Reply 225):
At what time did the pilots turn off the seat belt sign? Was it ever turned off?

AFAIK there is no way of knowing that as this information is not transmitted via ACARS. If the plane has crashed that information could be gleaned from the CVR's audio.

Quoting 65Mustang (Reply 225):
What happens to a T7 at cruising altitude with no pilots and no autopilot? Does it plunge to the ground or does the computer try to fly it? (addressed in the updated sanity check)

It could fly for hours. As opposed to non-FBW planes which would most likely fall into a spiraling descent, FBW flight control systems will keep the plane stable in whatever attitude it was left by the pilots or autopilot. This could, of course, be a steady turn or a descent, but if the plane was flying straight and level it would keep flying straight and level.

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:48:05]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-18 18:44:02 and read 20078 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 229):
"How?" is the big question. Also, I doubt a bunch of asylum seekers would just decide to kill a bunch of random innocent, people

if you read the article i posted earlier has different views, they may have no chance surviving anyway in China and 2nd they might avenge Malaysia that put own interest with China above Human rights
this article could be why this theory is possible
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/articl...fficking-camp-may-face-deportation

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:44:19 and read 20009 times.

Quoting 65Mustang (Reply 225):
Regarding the 8:11am sitcom ping. We keep seeing a 2d map with an arc that indicates where the plane was. Shouldn't this be thought of in a 3d context?

The arcs are just sets of points on the earth's surface which are below all the possible places in the air the plane could have been at 08:11L (it's also possible the plane was on the ground at one of the points).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 18:44:53 and read 20052 times.

I think you are confusing mangosteen and Durian. Durian is the one with the strong smell.
Mangosteens are fine They are often in tropical fruit welcome plates in hotel rooms.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 18:45:05 and read 19997 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 232):

Correct. Durian doesn't stain.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 18:46:44 and read 19912 times.

Quoting 65Mustang (Reply 225):
2. Hack - I have seen several experts say the flight computers cannot be hacked and there is no way that this could happen. I think if humans can put a man on the moon, a flight computer could be hacked. Could the plane have been hacked by a passenger during flight, someone somewhere in the world on the ground, or was a virus planted in the computer before the flight? There were many engineers on board that worked for Freescale Semiconductor. Did Freescale Semiconductor have any military contracts? Are any Freescale Semiconductor chips used in the construction of a Boeing 777? From Wikipedia:

Freescale Semiconductor, Inc. is an American company that produces and designs embedded hardware, with 17 billion semiconductor chips in use around the world. The company focuses on the automotive, consumer, industrial and networking markets with its product portfolio including microprocessors, microcontrollers, digital signal processors, digital signal controllers, sensors, RF power ICs and power management ICs. In addition, the company offers software and development tools to support product development.

Just because you can fly to the moon doesn't mean you can break physics. The flight computer can be hacked if you could hack it in the first place. The way it seems to be designed is to isolate the redundant channels from external exposure. Not to mention even if hacked you would have to modify or replace/hack the very sensors and simpler digitization hardware which allows for direct control without the more complex (hackable) flight computers.

As mentioned ages ago the Freescale employee's are likely production engineers not associated with firmware programming or chip design. The two plants they were moving between are for packaging and assembly. Potting chips and putting them in tape/reel, chip trays is not usually associated with expert hackers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-18 18:46:49 and read 19895 times.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 233):
f the transponder is off, can the cockpit still receive specific information about the exact location of other aircraft in the vicinity?

No. For TCAS to work you need the transponder to be on. However as has been suggested you could use a laptop with a USB receiver for ADS-B signals.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-18 18:53:14 and read 19503 times.

Quoting 65Mustang (Reply 225):
Failed or successful Hijack - Somali pirates are pretty brazen.

With all due respect to Somali pirates, I'm willing to bet that not one of them have ever set foot on an aircraft, let alone own a passport. Why branch out to Malaysia to steal an aircraft when there are hundreds of massive, lumbering ships right off the coast of Somalia ripe for pirating? Makes no sense...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 18:53:47 and read 19535 times.

Could MH370 have flown on autopilot after pilots passed out?

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...-autopilot-after-pilots-passed-out

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 18:53:57 and read 19693 times.

The Maldives report sounds very peculiar. the plane was low and loud. 9/11 was loud as well, because they were travelling too fast for low altitude. The Maldives residents would know the difference between a low, incredibly loud, passenger jet and the normal regional planes they see and hear. If the witness reports were corroborated (perhaps someone whipped out a camera?) and no known jets overflew the island that morning, then, I have no words. MH370 was a ghost plane. The satellite pings are being read incorrectly. Maldives has a GSM cellphone company, covering most islands. Do they log phones from other carriers auto-logging onto their network? There would be phones on board that would auto-roam from low altitude and try to handshake.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 18:55:57 and read 19361 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 246):

Not if everyone unconscious.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-18 19:00:57 and read 19008 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 247):
Not if everyone unconscious.

You never landed in an airport and your phone gets sent a text from the local carrier?
mine does all the time. I don't have to do anything, it handshakes. Automatically. If it is on..
some people may have left their phones on, even if everyone was unconscious.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-18 19:01:16 and read 18944 times.

We know almost nothing, including if the radar pings in Malaysia were the plane or even accurate. After all, it appears
the climb to 45,000 was a false read.

No Aircraft, No Case - nearly everything will be conjecture.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:01:45 and read 18962 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 247):
Not if everyone unconscious.

Technically a phone doesn't need a person to be conscious to register on a GSM network it just needs to be on and compatible with the network which many unlocked and global freq phones travellers use are configured/able to do. At a very low altitude it would be relatively to highly probable that a phone left on could register successfully. Add on the fact the satcom pings would have to be horribly wrong for that to work means some more information is required to confirm that sighting before it can be considered much more than a rumor.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:04:14 and read 18712 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 249):

We know almost nothing, including if the radar pings in Malaysia were the plane or even accurate. After all, it appears
the climb to 45,000 was a false read.

No Aircraft, No Case - nearly everything will be conjecture.

The Malaysians gave the radar data to various countries and even if the altitude data might not be accurate the position info is probably good enough for US and AUS ops to occur in the southern area.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-18 19:04:49 and read 18942 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 248):

Yes. I was always thinking of someone making a call.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: sovietjet
Posted 2014-03-18 19:06:23 and read 18820 times.

One last CVR question and I'm sorry if it was asked before. Can the CVR and FDR be turned off in flight?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:07:35 and read 18809 times.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 253):
One last CVR question and I'm sorry if it was asked before. Can the CVR and FDR be turned off in flight?

Almost any system can be turned off so yes you can turn off a CVR/FDR. If it has RIPS (Recorder independent power system) equipped it will still record for a few minutes.

[Edited 2014-03-18 19:08:17]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-18 19:08:35 and read 18838 times.

Quoting Tapir (Reply 245):
Could MH370 have flown on autopilot after pilots passed out?

Yes. And hypoxia is a very painless death -- you just drift off into oblivion. You don't even know you're dying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-18 19:09:05 and read 18797 times.

Quoting stuyyz (Reply 15):

The pilot had Diego Garcia as one of his top 5 landing strips in his simulator, so for whatever reason he was aiming for this airport.
Coverup: It may all come down to the base commander or even the missile operator who is covering it up, and not telling his senior officer. Who knows...its a longshot theory in the first place.


Not only that , the sighting and described southerly path over the lower Maldives puts the plane right on top of Diego Garcia in a few hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:09:09 and read 18712 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 255):
Yes. And hypoxia is a very painless death -- you just drift off into oblivion. You don't even know you're dying.

Carbon monoxide could also cause the same thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: PHX787
Posted 2014-03-18 19:09:42 and read 18945 times.

CNN and FOX said that the plane turned about 12 minutes before the final message.

The radar returns visible on FR24 are time delayed, depending on where you're at, they can be time delayed upwards to about 10-15 minutes (due to receivers being far away.) FAA data on FR24 is usually 5 minutes time delayed.

Are transponders to control centers also time delayed?


ALSO: Getting conflicting reports from a LOT of people that the plane reportedly turned up in Pakistan.....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-18 19:12:05 and read 18536 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 251):
The Malaysians gave the radar data to various countries and even if the altitude data might not be accurate the position info is probably good enough for US and AUS ops to occur in the southern area.

Well they were so definite abut it a few days ago and now are not.

Also, they backtracked when ACARS was 'turned off'.

I don't think they know much, and if DoD or someone else does - they aren't saying.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: ChrisNH
Posted 2014-03-18 19:13:36 and read 18918 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 258):
CNN and FOX said that the plane turned about 12 minutes before the final message.

This is HUGE. The plane made its supposedly 'forbidden' re-direct while the cockpit crew (and, presumably, the plane) were both OK.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-18 19:15:30 and read 18523 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 258):
ALSO: Getting conflicting reports from a LOT of people that the plane reportedly turned up in Pakistan.....

Heard the same for Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Diego Garcia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, "insert country here." Wake me up when they actually find the plane in one of said countries...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 19:17:37 and read 18330 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 258):
CNN and FOX said that the plane turned about 12 minutes before the final message.

Not correct. A turn was entered in the FMS 12 min before final voice contact but not executed then.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 19:22:00 and read 17935 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 261):
"insert country here."

Atlantis. Brigadoon. Shangri La.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2014-03-18 19:23:48 and read 17828 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 263):
Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 261):
"insert country here."

Atlantis. Brigadoon. Shangri La.

I'm starting to subscribe to the theory that the plane launched itself into lower orbit

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: PHX787
Posted 2014-03-18 19:26:05 and read 17832 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 262):
Not correct. A turn was entered in the FMS 12 min before final voice contact but not executed then.

Now I am also receiving conflicting reports from both CNN, FOX, and every other news source saying that they cannot confirm that the turn was computer-input. Was this info sent via satallite to Boeing or RR?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: coolian2
Posted 2014-03-18 19:26:14 and read 17511 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 264):
I'm starting to subscribe to the theory that the plane launched itself into lower orbit

I reckon they found the lost city of gold.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-18 19:27:50 and read 17604 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 265):

cnn just confirmed it for whatever that is worth.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: PHX787
Posted 2014-03-18 19:30:04 and read 17200 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 267):
cnn just confirmed it for whatever that is worth.

The problem is how the heck did they confirm it?

IMHO You can't confirm s**t until you find the damn thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: ChrisNH
Posted 2014-03-18 19:31:46 and read 17189 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 262):
Not correct. A turn was entered in the FMS 12 min before final voice contact but not executed then.

"Entered into the FMS" or "executed"...what difference does it make? The plane should have gone straight and instead went left...and a calm, unconcerned copilot says 'Good night?' Before they even take off, both crew members go over this stuff to cross-check for anomalies. A mis-commanded turn like this would happen hundreds of time daily all over the globe if pilots didn't cross-reference their waypoints. Yet you don't see that happening.

[Edited 2014-03-18 19:33:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-18 19:33:48 and read 17060 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 267):
cnn just confirmed it for whatever that is worth.

CNN headline just says turn was programmed before last voice contact. Not that the turn was made then.

[Edited 2014-03-18 19:35:30]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-18 19:33:51 and read 17030 times.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 269):
"Entered into the FMS" or "executed"...what difference does it make?

This was before the transponder went dead. If it was executed at that time then Singapore SSR was asleep. Not likely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:36:02 and read 16655 times.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 266):

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 264):
I'm starting to subscribe to the theory that the plane launched itself into lower orbit

I reckon they found the lost city of gold.

In space of course.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: wjcandee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:36:49 and read 16706 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 254):
Almost any system can be turned off so yes you can turn off a CVR/FDR.

In fact, there are circumstances in which you are supposed to pull the breaker on the CVR so it doesn't overwrite what would have been of interest to investigators.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:39:18 and read 16556 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 259):
Well they were so definite abut it a few days ago and now are not.

Also, they backtracked when ACARS was 'turned off'.

I don't think they know much, and if DoD or someone else does - they aren't saying.

They already gave their radar data to the US authorities so if they think it is good enough to do ops in the southern area it isn't dependent on the Malaysian's competence unless they faked the data which is unlikely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: seatran
Posted 2014-03-18 19:42:13 and read 16290 times.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 204):

This is a question for any Military Pilots or Tanker Pilots out there. From your experience, how difficult is it to rendesvous with a Military tanker, factoring in that both lead plane and chase plane are working together to meet up in a preset point in space and time.

Difficult but not impossible. In my opinion, it would be unlikely that a crew who had never accomplished a rendezvous before could successfully accomplish one esp at night and without communication with the crew in the aircraft they are rendezvousing with. I'm not familiar with what kinds of speeds a 777 flies at, but one reason rendezvous are typically accomplished lower than FL 300 is to ensure that there is adequate margin on airspeed in case a "tail chase" develops and the rendezvousing aircraft must accelerate to catch up to the lead aircraft. Rendezvous are more challenging at higher altitudes.

A rendezvous is not rocket science but most guys don't get very good at them until they have done quite a few of them. That's why you go to training to learn how to do them and that's why there are currency requirements so that you stay proficient with them.

So, the likelihood of a crew successfully accomplishing a night rendezvous without any real training (Flight Simulator on a PC doesn't count) is pretty low. On the other hand, it's not out of the realm of possibility. They could have gotten lucky.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2014-03-18 19:45:44 and read 16081 times.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 273):
In fact, there are circumstances in which you are supposed to pull the breaker on the CVR so it doesn't overwrite what would have been of interest to investigators.

And where is that breaker?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: imagoagnitio
Posted 2014-03-18 19:49:07 and read 16162 times.

Maldives also receives the following scheduled and charter flights...take your pick of those with red stripes (that might look like a 'jumbo' to a non-enthusiast: ( SOURCE http://www.macl.aero/plus/S_AIRLINES/24/3 )

AEROFLOT
ALITALIA
AIR ASIA X
AIR INDIA
AUSTRIAN AIRLINES
BANKOK AIRWAYS
BRITISH AIRWAYS
CATHAY PACIFIC
CHINA EASTERN
CHINA SOUTHERN
CONDOR
EDELWEISS
EMIRATES
ETHIHAD AIRWAYS
FITS AIR
FLY DUBAI
HAINAN AIRLINES
HONGKONG AIRLINES
KOREAN AIR
XL AIRWAYS
MALDIVIAN
MALAYSIA AIRLINES
MERIDIANA FLY
NEOS
OMAN AIR
QATAR AIRWAYS
SICHUAN AIRLINES
SINGAPORE AIRLINES
SRI LANKAN
SPICE JET
THOMSONFLY
TRANSAERO
TURKISH

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: seatran
Posted 2014-03-18 19:50:44 and read 15952 times.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 269):
"Entered into the FMS" or "executed"...what difference does it make? The plane should have gone straight and instead went left...and a calm, unconcerned copilot says 'Good night?' Before they even take off, both crew members go over this stuff to cross-check for anomalies. A mis-commanded turn like this would happen hundreds of time daily all over the globe if pilots didn't cross-reference their waypoints. Yet you don't see that happening.

It doesn't necessarily mean anything about the pilot who said it that he was "calm" and "unconcerned". Sometimes you get complacent up there. Most pilots these days do not follow along on their charts and expect a right turn vs left turn or know exactly where they are with relation to the airway. Most pilots follow the purple line and if the purple line says to go left, they go left and don't really question it.

However, if indeed the turn was programmed before he said it, it sounds like it would mean one of the two pilots inserted the new routing into the FMS. The pilot on the radio may not have noticed the other pilot changing the route. The other pilot may have taken a bathroom break and the routing was changed while he was off the flight deck. He comes back and still sees a purple line and thinks everything is good to go. Most guys are not going to assume the other pilot maliciously changed the routing while he was going to the bathroom.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-18 19:52:25 and read 15796 times.

IIRC, the actual turn would be reported by ACARS, not the data entry. So if ACARS reported the turn, then the turn occurred before ACARS was disabled. I think.

ACARS reports the execution of the instruction, not the entry. I think.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: AustinALlison
Posted 2014-03-18 19:58:05 and read 15324 times.

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 277):
Maldives also receives the following scheduled and charter flights...take your pick of those with red stripes

True, but the distance from the main airport to the site of the spotting is well over 100 miles. Doubtful a jumbo from Male (the capital) would be that low at that point.

[Edited 2014-03-18 20:06:32]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 19:58:47 and read 15317 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 279):
IIRC, the actual turn would be reported by ACARS, not the data entry. So if ACARS reported the turn, then the turn occurred before ACARS was disabled. I think.

ACARS reports the execution of the instruction, not the entry. I think.

Not to mention I thought they only subscribed to engine health reporting. Doesn't it cost money even over VHF for each ACARS message or is it not really clear what subscriptions or data is expected. Too bad there isn't a public site for ACARS data plans and packages although I doubt they expect random people to sign up for such a service.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-18 20:00:14 and read 15222 times.

Quoting AustinALlison (Reply 280):
True, but the distance from the main airport to the site of the spotting is well over 300 miles. Doubtful a jumbo from Male (the capital) would be that low at that point.

Maybe some captain wanted to model themselves after a certain cruise ship captain and do a low altitude fly out. Although I can't imagine the local ATC not noticing that.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: fooflyboy
Posted 2014-03-18 20:04:36 and read 14921 times.

From prior threads...

[unknown]If a certain terrorist group will "steal" a plane they will use it right away (9/11).

IADCA: I'm not convinced that whoever took it wants the plane. I think disappearing without a trace might be the point. It's a pretty powerful statement to say (by implication, of course): "We took a loaded 777 from a major airline and we made it vanish into thin air. You have no idea how we did it, and you don't even know who we are, so you have no idea if or when we might do it again.

THIS has been my pet theory for a while now. If true, the real shock would come with the disappearance of the next plane...

gatorman96: Aside from a battle over the flight controls, this could be an explanation for the sudden climb to 43-45K feet.

I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere, but let's say the hijacker decompresses the cabin. The passengers are in real trouble after a few minutes but the f/a's have their oxygen bottles. So there is an attempt on their part to break into the cockpit. To quell the commotion and to thwart this, the hijacker enters a steep climb - attempting to physically force the f/a's to the rear of the plane. (thoughts??)

virgin744: Why not steal a cargo plane? Why do it with passengers on board?

It's easy to board a passenger plane. Just buy a ticket. Besides who is going to really notice that a cargo plane is missing? It may be a news item, but that would be about it. And if your goal is terror, making over 200 people disappear is much more in line with such an evil plan.

laddb: Naturally, whoever landed at some remote airport is probably filling a boat with seat cushions and suitcases to be scattered in the middle of the Indian Ocean as a diversion.

Oh wow. Unfortunately that makes sense...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: AustinALlison
Posted 2014-03-18 20:07:12 and read 14811 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 282):
Maybe some captain wanted to model themselves after a certain cruise ship captain and do a low altitude fly out. Although I can't imagine the local ATC not noticing that.

I re-read the article, and the distance is more like 100 miles. Still quite a distance, but not the 300 I previously said.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2014-03-18 20:17:40 and read 15070 times.

Hi All,

This thread has gotten quite long and Part 36 was created. It can be found here MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation) .

All posts made after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Regards,
Pat


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