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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-20 00:49:56 and read 84266 times.

Due to length part 38 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 39:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


SOME IMPORTANT REMINDERS FOR ALL OUR MEMBERS TO CONSIDER BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD:

**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to past / current movies or possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

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**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

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Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-20 01:01:31 and read 83857 times.

Quote:
I do not expect the debris to be in the same location after 4+ days.


Not to mention the strong drift leading into the WA current. Search area in magenta.

http://i.imgur.com/cJqPJP9.jpg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-20 01:03:39 and read 83683 times.

We have to remember they don't just release their best photos to benefit us.

For me, the most telling thing is the location.... it matches the ping data very well.

So even if it whales for now (which I doubt because of correlating radar data, whic we only hear about), I feel the plane is around there.... close.

I think this is it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-20 01:03:39 and read 83683 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 1):

Is the map indicating the current is moving northeast? Could that mean debris may eventually hit the beaches of Australia?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-20 01:05:00 and read 83485 times.

Quoting chaseus1 (Reply 2):
I think this is it.

I think that as well, but as I mentioned previously, I will not be 100 percent convinced until it is spotted by a human from a ship or a plane.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-20 01:06:02 and read 83476 times.

Or catch one of those strong currents to the north... or east....

Let's hope they can find most of the floating debris right away.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-20 01:06:08 and read 83344 times.

From what I can see in the images, the 24 meter one looks to me like a Galley/Toilette complex. Not much more can be deduced from that resolution. But the Australians are certainly not mobilizing they way they are just by going on those two images at that quality.

I really hope we get the ones with more quality, or pictures from the planes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: monjonman
Posted 2014-03-20 01:09:54 and read 83158 times.

Could the tail of the aircraft float? Because I zoomed in on the photo 200% and I can see that the black marking could be the malaysian air symbol as seen on its tail and it fits scale wise to the leading edge dimension.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-20 01:11:39 and read 82900 times.

Wow, some actual news this morning. I hope that this is the right track, and they can start a proper investigation soon. I feel for the families, but at least they now might find out what happened to those on board.

And I hope we don't have to read about sneaky Chinese or flying Twitter-fishes any more.  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-20 01:14:06 and read 82462 times.

Quoting monjonman (Reply 9):
Could the tail of the aircraft float?

Fairly improbable. The tail on the 777 is metal. If the rudder were to detach, that might float as it is a honeycomb structure with composite layers. Lots of trapped air.

[Edited 2014-03-20 01:14:59]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-20 01:14:14 and read 82472 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
From what I can see in the images, the 24 meter one looks to me like a Galley/Toilette complex. Not much more can be deduced from that resolution. But the Australians are certainly not mobilizing they way they are just by going on those two images at that quality.

What planes do you know of with a 24m galley, or toilet? The entire aircraft is only 63m long.


Quoting garpd (Reply 11):
Fairly improbably. The tail on the 777 is metal. If the rudder were to detach, that might float as it is a honeycomb structure with composite layers. Lots of trapped air.

The tail of the 777 is composite not metal.

[Edited 2014-03-20 05:38:49 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LandSweetLand
Posted 2014-03-20 01:18:15 and read 81934 times.

Quoting monjonman (Reply 9):
Could the tail of the aircraft float?

I was wondering if it's the tail section too. It looks like there's three skinny bits coming off the end (towards the bottom side of the image).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-20 01:19:22 and read 81974 times.

Not a mod, but I think it is good to have a trail.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 8):
39 threads. Is this an A.net record?

Without a doubt.

Quoting 77west (Reply 13):

Quoting garpd (Reply 11):
Fairly improbably. The tail on the 777 is metal. If the rudder were to detach, that might float as it is a honeycomb structure with composite layers. Lots of trapped air.

The tail of the 777 is composite not metal.

Indeed. It could float either way though. Boeing didn't build it to be heavy so there are likely a lot of air spaces inside.

[Edited 2014-03-20 03:58:04 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-20 01:21:05 and read 81820 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
Indeed. It could float either way though. Boeing didn't build it to be heavy so there are likely a lot of air spaces inside.

Quite true. Even metal can float given the right conditions. IE Buoyancy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-20 01:22:57 and read 81615 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 10):
What planes do you know of with a 24m galley, or toilet? The entire aircraft is only 63m long.

The key word in my post, of course being "complex." Implying toilettes, galleys and more.

I´ll be open to any suggestions you can provide on the images.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-20 01:25:33 and read 81415 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 3):
Is the map indicating the current is moving northeast? Could that mean debris may eventually hit the beaches of Australia?

Not sure, but I believe it would take quite a while for debris to travel that distance. From what I understand, the current movement is somewhat circular for objects within a certain area, despite the general direction of the current.

Here is a good (rather in-depth) read about forecasting ocean drift and how it relates to SAR: http://met.no/Forskning/Vare_forsker...ckett/filestore/Chap23-Hackett.pdf

Quoting monjonman (Reply 9):
Could the tail of the aircraft float?

Possibly? The majority of the 777 is aluminum alloy, however the fin and stabilizers are made from toughened matrix CFRP (carbon fiber reinforced polymer). Density depends on the laminant and I'm not sure how that compares to salt water, and if/how if may have broke off, whether it absorbed water and sank...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-20 01:25:42 and read 81523 times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26659583

great updates on the debris...

CCTV News tweets: #US P-8 has arrived in Indian Ocean area; US 7th Fleet spokesperson confirms they have located the debris identified by #Australia. #MH370

we'll know very shortly if this is a part of the plane....

i hope its not- my heart goes out to the families. I still nurtured the notion the passengers were hostages...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-20 01:29:15 and read 80904 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 14):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
Indeed. It could float either way though. Boeing didn't build it to be heavy so there are likely a lot of air spaces inside.

Quite true. Even metal can float given the right conditions. IE Buoyancy.

For example, you know, a metal cruise liner. 

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-20 01:29:26 and read 80883 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
The key word in my post, of course being "complex." Implying toilettes, galleys and more.

I´ll be open to any suggestions you can provide on the images.

I would like to refer you and the rest of the pack to post 237 of the previous thread by a.netter "ERJ135":

Quoting ERJ135:
am unable to give sources or any other information, however I am looking at a hard copy of the satellite imagery which clearly shows the two pieces of debris.
The larger one at 24 metres is definitely a part of an aircraft wing, if it is the 777 we are looking for it would be from the engine pylon to the tip. The other part is harder to tell what it is.
The credible information is that it was found at the extreme fuel range of the aircraft off the West coast of Australia near Perth. The theory of a Helios type tragedy is now most likely but is still speculation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Nav30
Posted 2014-03-20 01:30:32 and read 80578 times.

Whatever else this business turns out to be, locating the wreckage (if that's what has happened) represents a truly marvellous achievement by the air forces and navies involved.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: travelhound
Posted 2014-03-20 01:30:36 and read 80616 times.

Remember these images were taken on the 16 March, so 4 days has passed since they were taken.

At the AMSA news conference they mentioned evidence of a debris trail, so the two released images are only part of the information they have available.

I'd suggest this is looking fairly certain.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: monjonman
Posted 2014-03-20 01:31:14 and read 80589 times.

Quoting LandSweetLand (Reply 12):

Yep after looking at it again I am even more convinced that it is the vertical stabilizer in the image with it's leading edge to the left and the top of the tail is at the top of the photo.the symbol seems to be pointing at the correct angle to the leading edge as well.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-20 01:32:45 and read 80285 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 24):
I would like to refer you and the rest of the pack to post 237 of the previous thread by a.netter "ERJ135":

I read it, thank you. I also would like to refer you to my post on this thread:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
I really hope we get the ones with more quality, or pictures from the planes.

He is probably looking at those images, not at the ones posted here. And my inference was made on those ones.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-20 01:38:09 and read 79392 times.

CCTV News tweets: The pilot on US P-8: Radar hits seen not believed to be linked to objects identified by Australia.#Update #MH370


so... They've found different debris?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Ogre727
Posted 2014-03-20 01:42:17 and read 81032 times.

According to a Chilean newspaper... Australian authorities have claimed the debris might not be related to flight MH370. Link only in Spanish sorry:

http://www.emol.com/noticias/interna...elacionadas-con-avion-perdido.html

To some people in the forum, could you please be so kind to keep this thread accident related only? asking for how many feet is 24 meters, or what acronyms stand for is ok... but easily googleable.

P.

[Edited 2014-03-20 01:57:04]

[Edited 2014-03-20 01:58:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-20 01:44:36 and read 80967 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 11):
The tail of the 777 is composite not metal.

You learn something new every day!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-20 01:49:48 and read 81879 times.

Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 25):

they're just relaying what was said by the Australians that until confirmed it may or may not be related...

seems fairly logical to me.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-20 02:04:46 and read 80560 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
For example, you know, a metal cruise liner

Quite a good example! And a famous liner demonstrated exactly what happens if said metal object loses this buoyancy effect.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: timothy31388
Posted 2014-03-20 02:09:48 and read 79877 times.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 24):

Or it could be a Submarine operating in the area?

Malaysian press conference again at 1730 KUL time. We'll see what they have to say about this new development.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-20 02:19:21 and read 78278 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 16):
Not sure, but I believe it would take quite a while for debris to travel that distance. From what I understand, the current movement is somewhat circular for objects within a certain area, despite the general direction of the current.

Here is a good (rather in-depth) read about forecasting ocean drift and how it relates to SAR:

Thank you.

Quoting liquidair (Reply 17):
CCTV News tweets: #US P-8 has arrived in Indian Ocean area; US 7th Fleet spokesperson confirms they have located the debris identified by #Australia. #MH370

Did they go to the area the debris was located on the day the picture was taken or did they go to an an area they anticipated the debris to be in now, four days later?

Quoting liquidair (Reply 24):


CCTV News tweets: The pilot on US P-8: Radar hits seen not believed to be linked to objects identified by Australia.#Update #MH370


so... They've found different debris?

So, is that not it or do we not know for sure yet?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-20 02:21:00 and read 78003 times.

Quoting timothy31388 (Reply 30):
Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 31):

I'm equally as confused by both tweets...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mike89406
Posted 2014-03-20 02:29:35 and read 76728 times.

Malaysian Press conference any minute now according to CNN and Twitter

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: dragon-wings
Posted 2014-03-20 02:30:32 and read 76596 times.

Quoting monjonman (Reply 7):
Could the tail of the aircraft float?

I don't know if the tail of the A330 is made of the same material as the 777, but when AF447 crashed in the Atlantic Ocean the tail was floating.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-20 02:32:21 and read 76247 times.

Today's press conference is starting now.

http://www.astroawani.com/videos/live

But I can't get decent bandwidth - I hope someone else can watch it and report.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-20 02:36:33 and read 75696 times.

5+ SAR aircraft deployed, multiple P3's and 1 P8
C130 been tasked to drop buoys to assist with drift calculations.
1 civil ship responding to requests for help arriving on scene today
18 SAR vessels active in the southern corridor

Both corridors still getting equal attention - more SAR assest still being deployed on northern corridor

China are using 21 satellites to conduct surveys of its own country...

I agree with their method of not putting hopes up on this latest "debris" sighting by Australia. It is better that way. Rather cover that after the SAR assets have been on-scene and established what exactly it is...

[Edited 2014-03-20 02:41:05]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: haynflyer
Posted 2014-03-20 02:37:33 and read 75471 times.

Nothing new.

He is just reading what is already posted on many news sites.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 02:37:57 and read 75750 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
For example, you know, a metal cruise liner. 

Or even a concrete ship.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ushed-pieces-China-didnt-sink.html

Basically anything can float if you displace enough water to counter the weight of the object, this usually involves hollow, honeycomb, hull shapes. (Archimedes comes to mind)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 02:41:25 and read 75297 times.

US P-8 has finished search in suspected area and have found nothing. This is on CCTV twitter, according to ABC news.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 02:45:18 and read 74185 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 39):

US P-8 has finished search in suspected area and have found nothing. This is on CCTV twitter, according to ABC news.

Is there a link to said ABC news report.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: nm2582
Posted 2014-03-20 02:51:29 and read 73314 times.

Given the ocean current map posted in reply 1 of this thread, it seems like these debris would have had to originate hundreds of miles west of the location that the satellite photographed them in.

The coordinates the satellite photographed the debris at are 3600 miles from IGARI. If we assume a 2mph drift of the debris over 8 days, putting the origin ~ 400 miles west of the location they were photographed...that would give 3745 miles from IGARI.

Interestingly, thats VERY close to the miles that the FWF twitter guy has repeatedly mentioned (3675)....

[Edited 2014-03-20 02:53:01]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 02:51:49 and read 73221 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 40):

Nope, I picked it from CCTV twitter page. They haven't quoted link either.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-20 02:55:12 and read 72937 times.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 36):
1 civil ship responding to requests for help arriving on scene today

It's a Norwegian ship that was originally going from South Africa towards Australia that has been redirected to the site.

The Höegh St. Petersburg

http://www.nrk.no/verden/norsk-skip-inn-i-flysok-1.11618149

The ship was asked to change course and head for the area in question by the Australian authorities 2 days ago ...

http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/03/20/n...er/utenriks/flymysteriet/32401061/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: dragon-wings
Posted 2014-03-20 02:56:00 and read 72787 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 39):
US P-8 has finished search in suspected area and have found nothing. This is on CCTV twitter, according to ABC news.

CNN just said Australia P-3's couldn't find the debris because of the rain and low visibility in the area.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LH452
Posted 2014-03-20 02:56:35 and read 72777 times.

Somebody posted a while back that the engine manufacturer had received a message from the aircraft of a normal landing. Has this been verified and if so could such a message have been sent if the aircraft landed/crashed in the ocean?

Rgds,

LH452

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-20 02:57:59 and read 72587 times.

We are all very happy about INMARSAT. We're able to considerably narrow down the search area thanks to that geostationary thing up there.

But do we have any theory that specifically explains why MH370 would end up SW or SSW of Australia? I hope this theory would be simpler than general relativity...


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2014-03-20 02:58:30 and read 71979 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 43):

Thanks for the clarification!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 02:59:16 and read 72026 times.

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 44):
CNN just said Australia P-3's couldn't find the debris because of the rain and low visibility in the area.

Well that is a lot different. Hopefully the weather can clear up enough for the search to work effectively.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 03:02:30 and read 71463 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 46):
But do we have any theory that specifically explains why MH370 would end up SW or SSW of Australia? I hope this theory would be simpler than general relativity...

It flying there is pretty simple compared to general relativity. Why it flew there is another story. (Something the black boxes or wreckage/debris could help with but we are not really at that point yet as they have to confirm the sat images first)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2014-03-20 03:02:39 and read 71793 times.

http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/satellite/

Looking at this, seems to be a bit of weather. Not the easiest conditions.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 03:05:53 and read 71108 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 46):

That's why I will be more pleased if they find CVR and FDR (Chances are bleak). Finding debris is ok, atleast it will confirm that plane has crashed but without CVR and FDR will be difficult to conclude what happened.

I still couldn't find that news which someone posted y'day, is it true pilot was involved in doing some depth search on Indian ocean?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 03:07:14 and read 71147 times.

Also AMSA has a twitter feed that appears to be a more direct and just as fast (for obvious reasons) than the news feeds.

https://twitter.com/AMSA_News

I would keep watch of their site and twitter feed as they will probably report it directly just as fast as any media agency can get it out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 03:07:59 and read 71117 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 43):
It's a Norwegian ship that was originally going from South Africa towards Australia that has been redirected to the site.

The Höegh St. Petersburg

http://www.nrk.no/verden/norsk-skip-...18149

Even if they can find the debris and get it on board they won't be able to identify it unless it has distinctive markings showing it belongs to 9M-MRO.

Quoting LH452 (Reply 45):
Somebody posted a while back that the engine manufacturer had received a message from the aircraft of a normal landing. Has this been verified and if so could such a message have been sent if the aircraft landed/crashed in the ocean?

Pretty sure this was disproved and no it wouldn't send a message in event of crash at sea.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 48):

Well that is a lot different. Hopefully the weather can clear up enough for the search to work effectively.

Even with the weather issues shouldn't the P3's radar still be able to detect whatever the P8 picked up?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mike89406
Posted 2014-03-20 03:09:35 and read 70442 times.

Supposedly the area of interest is in the beginning of the Southern Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 03:10:02 and read 70245 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 53):
Even with the weather issues shouldn't the P3's radar still be able to detect whatever the P8 picked up?

I think they want a visual confirmation as if we assume they already have a radar hit getting another one doesn't confirm it still. (Well it would help make sure there is still something there but until they get a visual confirmation it isn't anything new)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 03:11:37 and read 70214 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 53):
Even if they can find the debris and get it on board they won't be able to identify it unless it has distinctive markings showing it belongs to 9M-MRO.

Technically if the debris is retrieved material analysis could help build confidence in where it might have come from. Airplane debris is probably pretty rare on the ocean surface and plane materials should be pretty distinct from ship or land debris sources.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-20 03:11:51 and read 70243 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 53):
Even if they can find the debris and get it on board they won't be able to identify it unless it has distinctive markings showing it belongs to 9M-MRO.

Perhaps not, but it's about securing possible debris. If the items are as big as some has indicated, I Guess they will be able to find out atleast if they come from an aircraft or not.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2014-03-20 03:12:37 and read 70926 times.

I just picked this up from another forum.

A banner on top of the page::
Flight crew combing southern Indian Ocean for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 getting radar hits of "significant size."

Flight 370: 'New and credible information'

The objects are indistinct but of "reasonable size," with the largest about 24 meters (79 feet) across, said John Young, general manager of emergency response for the Australian Maritime Safety Authority.

They appear to be "awash with water and bobbing up and down" in an area 2,500 kilometers (1,500 miles) southwest of Australia's west coast, he said.

read more here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/20/wo...irlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-20 03:12:49 and read 70297 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 53):
Even if they can find the debris and get it on board they won't be able to identify it unless it has distinctive markings showing it belongs to 9M-MRO.

If they were able to identify it as a piece from a 777, that would do.

After all, how many 777s has gone missing lately?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: loalq
Posted 2014-03-20 03:15:14 and read 69985 times.

Where are those P-8s being deployed from? It looks like a good 3hrs flight time away from Perth to the debris field. What is the operational range of these aircraft?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: dragon-wings
Posted 2014-03-20 03:17:45 and read 69607 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 60):
Where are those P-8s being deployed from?

CNN is saying they are flying from Perth.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-20 03:18:30 and read 69646 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 59):
If they were able to identify it as a piece from a 777, that would do.

After all, how many 777s has gone missing lately?

If the debris is identified as belonging to an airliner, its from 9M-MRO. Where else should sizable airplane debris in this region come from?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 03:21:01 and read 69267 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 59):
If they were able to identify it as a piece from a 777, that would do.

After all, how many 777s has gone missing lately?

To clarify, I meant that the crew of the Norwegian ship won't be able to tell what it is as they wouldn't have the necessary equipment to do an analysis of the material.

If it has a marking that identifies it as coming from an MH aircraft or it has the registry or Boeing markings on it then yes the crew would be able to identify it.

Otherwise its just a piece of debris which could be off anything.

Just keeping in mind the fact there have been far too many false sightings so far.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 03:21:09 and read 69245 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 60):

US Navy if I am not wrong but don't know their original base. Yes it's about 3 hrs from Perth and 5-6 hrs from Newzeland as their Air-force have sent aircraft too.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-20 03:21:37 and read 69054 times.

Quoting na (Reply 62):

If the debris is identified as belonging to an airliner, its from 9M-MRO. Where else should sizable airplane debris in this region come from?

I know that, I was replying to keegd76's post.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-20 03:26:26 and read 68348 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 60):
Where are those P-8s being deployed from? It looks like a good 3hrs flight time away from Perth to the debris field.

One report said an RAAF base north of Perth, so I guess RAAF Base Pearce.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 63):
If it has a marking that identifies it as coming from an MH aircraft or it has the registry or Boeing markings on it then yes the crew would be able to identify it.

Or they can photo it and have it examined by experts.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2014-03-20 03:27:34 and read 68446 times.

The US P-8 Poseidon arrived at RAAF Pearce (just north of Perth) 2 days ago. I'm assuming that is the aircraft being used.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 03:28:28 and read 68128 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 60):
Where are those P-8s being deployed from? It looks like a good 3hrs flight time away from Perth to the debris field. What is the operational range of these aircraft?

Australian AP-3C's are based in RAAF Base Edinburgh, north of Adelaide. However they may be staging from RAAF Pearce outside Perth.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 03:29:44 and read 68128 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 58):

That is the same as the very first reports of this debris.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-20 03:30:59 and read 68092 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 29):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
For example, you know, a metal cruise liner

Quite a good example! And a famous liner demonstrated exactly what happens if said metal object loses this buoyancy effect.

Touché, but to be fair the Titanic designers had cut a few corners on the watertight compartments front.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 46):
But do we have any theory that specifically explains why MH370 would end up SW or SSW of Australia? I hope this theory would be simpler than general relativity...

Sure. And as soon as they've publicized the CVR and DFDR transcripts I'll let you know my theory. 
Quoting keegd76 (Reply 63):
Quoting garpd (Reply 59):
If they were able to identify it as a piece from a 777, that would do.

After all, how many 777s has gone missing lately?

To clarify, I meant that the crew of the Norwegian ship won't be able to tell what it is as they wouldn't have the necessary equipment to do an analysis of the material.

If it has a marking that identifies it as coming from an MH aircraft or it has the registry or Boeing markings on it then yes the crew would be able to identify it.

Otherwise its just a piece of debris which could be off anything.

Just keeping in mind the fact there have been far too many false sightings so far.

It if is a significant piece, it should be easily be identifiable as an aircraft part. Very different materials and construction compared to, say, a ship.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 43):
The Höegh St. Petersburg

http://www.nrk.no/verden/norsk-skip-...18149

A RORO car carrier. The ugliest type of ship in the known universe. But I digress.

[Edited 2014-03-20 03:31:55]

[Edited 2014-03-20 03:33:40]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 03:34:48 and read 67434 times.

Here are the specs of P-8A Poseidon

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/def...-8SizedForPerformanceAndGrowth.pdf

Wing Span: 123.6 ft (37.64 m)
Height: 42.1 ft (12.83 m)
Length: 129.5 ft (39.47 m)
Propulsion: Two CFM56-7B engines, 27,000 lb thrust
Speed: 490 kn (564 mi/h)
Range: 1,200 nmi with4 hr on station
Ceiling: 41,000 ft (12,496 m)
Crew: 9
Maximum Takeoff Gross Weight: 189,200 lb (85,820 kg)


and P-3 Orion:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/p3/p-3-specifications.html

Length 116.8 ft / 35.6 m
Height 38.7 ft / 11.8 m
Wingspan 99.7 ft / 30.4 m
Takeoff run at sea level 4,240 ft / 1297.3 m
Maximum landing distance 2,900 ft / 883.9 m
Long-range cruise speed at 25,000 ft 350 KTAS
Loiter speed at 1,050 ft 203 KTAS
Maximum endurance 16 hours
Ferry range 4,830 n. mi / 8,944.4 km
Maximum take-off weight (2.5 g) 142,000 lb / 64,410.1 kg
Maximum landing gross weight (2.25 g) 103,880 lb / 47,119.1 kg
Design zero fuel weight 77,200 lb / 35,017 kg
Fuel capacity 62,560 lb / 28,376.7 kg


I wonder how P-3 Orion can have such an impressive endurance of 16 hours?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: MadameConcorde
Posted 2014-03-20 03:36:16 and read 67813 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 69):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 58):

That is the same as the very first reports of this debris.

The Chinese 'cargo ship', Hang Sheng 1, has been scribbling around the Australians' SAR area for about 3 days now.

There have been frequent tracking updates here:
http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=413501228

Thing is, the last position update was just after midnight GMT/UTC. Over the past 72 hrs or so there's not been such a 10hr gap between recorded movements.

It looks like it's been stationary for 10hrs or more. Wondering if they've spotted something.
AIS Data
Last report Mar 20, 2014 00:02 UTC
AIS TypeCargo ship
Flag China
DestinationNAN TONG
ETAUnknown
IMON/A
MMSI413501228
CallsignBMUF
Lat/Lon 51.55488 S / 92.59757 E
Course/Speed 176.8 ° / 49.7 kn.
Current draught 5.5 m


     

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-20 03:39:52 and read 66960 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 71):
I wonder how P-3 Orion can have such an impressive endurance of 16 hours?

1. Turboprops are generally slower than turbofans, but they use less much fuel so they have better endurance..
2. Once in the search area, the crew will shut down one, and sometimes two, engines in order to increase endurance. If you did that with a turbofan the drag of the shut down engine would mean decreased endurance. The Nimrod has jets but it can still perform the same trick as its engines have a small frontal area.

[Edited 2014-03-20 03:42:29]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-20 03:41:08 and read 66659 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 70):
Touché, but to be fair the Titanic designers had cut a few corners on the watertight compartments front.

Lets hope the -200 fuselage fares better. No matter the metal, Lithium, Uranium or anything in between, if it slams into the sea at speed it is likely to sink.

PS this is aimed at others, I am sure you know this.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 73):
Turboprops are generally slower than turbofans, but they use less much fuel so they have better endurance..
2. Once in the search area, the crew will shut down one, and sometimes two, engines in order to increase endurance. If you did that with a turbofan the drag of the shut down engine would mean endurance decreased.

A P3 and a P8 are quite different sadly.

I am pretty sure no 737 (P8) could fly for 16 hours, even with AUX tanks.

EDIT: Not aimed at you Starlion.

[Edited 2014-03-20 07:31:28 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-20 03:42:15 and read 66388 times.

This is apparently the second time the Norwegian ship has been redirected to search for debris lately ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2014-03-20 03:44:33 and read 66100 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 71):
I wonder how P-3 Orion can have such an impressive endurance of 16 hours?


I believe they can shut down two of the four engines when they arrive on station.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 03:47:03 and read 66156 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 74):
Lets hope the -200 fuselage fares better. No matter the metal, Lithium, Uranium or anything in between, if it slams into the sea at speed it is likely to sink.

Actually solid lithium would float and if you had a very large chunk of it not only would it float really well it would be a blazing inferno which would be pretty obvious on sat until it burned out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-20 03:50:21 and read 65584 times.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 78):
Actually solid lithium would float and if you had a very large chunk of it not only would it float really well it would be a blazing inferno which would be pretty obvious on sat until it burned out.

Boeing uses Lithium-Aluminium alloy for parts of its aircraft hence my choice of words.. Of course no one would use pure lithium, unless your air was in fact oil or some such.

I do know my chemistry.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 03:51:33 and read 65567 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 73):
Quoting 77west (Reply 76):

OK, thanks for the answers. P-8 can get faster to the target area, but remain stationed there only for 2-3 hours in this case.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-20 03:53:32 and read 65275 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 80):
OK, thanks for the answers. P-8 can get faster to the target area, but remain stationed there only for 2-3 hours in this case.

I don't know how long a P8 can stay on site, but it is basically a military version of a BBJ, so who know how many aux tanks etc it has. I simply think 16 hours is not possible. Perhaps 8-10 as more likely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 03:56:30 and read 64818 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 81):
don't know how long a P8 can stay on site, but it is basically a military version of a BBJ, so who know how many aux tanks etc it has. I simply think 16 hours is not possible. Perhaps 8-10 as more likely.

Boeing specs (quoted above) says 'Range: 1,200 nmi with 4 hr on station' and I understand the current target area is around 1,200 nmi from Perth, so it would be actually 4 hours in this case.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 03:58:39 and read 64367 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 79):
Boeing uses Lithium-Aluminium alloy for parts of its aircraft hence my choice of words.. Of course no one would use pure lithium, unless your air was in fact oil or some such.

True but I doubt uranium alloys are very common in plane parts. I'm sure you can make a solid metal ship out of pure lithium if you really wanted the most volatile ship structure ever and just hope your paint coating never gets chipped.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-20 03:58:45 and read 64742 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 63):
To clarify, I meant that the crew of the Norwegian ship won't be able to tell what it is as they wouldn't have the necessary equipment to do an analysis of the material.

If the approximately 24 metre long phenomenon in the satellite image can be located and viewed from a ship I think it will be easy to identify it as part of an aircraft (if it is). Aviation experts viewing photographs of the object taken from the ship concerned should easily be able to identify the type of aircraft. The prospects of Boeing not being able to identify a 20+ metre long object as part of a 777 from a photo (if the object is part of a 777) are nil IMO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 77west
Posted 2014-03-20 04:00:55 and read 64256 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 82):
Boeing specs (quoted above) says 'Range: 1,200 nmi with 4 hr on station' and I understand the current target area is around 1,200 nmi from Perth, so it would be actually 4 hours in this case.

Thanks Finn, that's great info. That implies a total range of 10-12 000 km. Which is what I expected . Not 16,000km. Only a 777-200LR based PX-XX could do that I think.



Quoting tomlee (Reply 83):
True but I doubt uranium alloys are very common in plane parts. I'm sure you can make a solid metal ship out of pure lithium if you really wanted the most volatile ship structure ever and just hope your paint coating never gets chipped.

Tom, I meant that any metal between Li and U (The common crust metals) would sink if buoyancy failed. Of course no one would make a plane from any metal close to U. EDIT: Or Li.

[Edited 2014-03-20 05:57:33 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 04:09:08 and read 63045 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 86):
Tom, I meant that any metal between Li and U (The common crust metals) would sink if buoyancy failed. Of course no one would make a plane from any metal close to U.

Well lets just leave it at alloys of Li thru U would not float without an intact hull. But pure elements of certain metals (Li, Na, K) can easily float as solid blocks as their density is less than pure water's density (Salt water being higher density would be easier to float on). (Ignoring that they would also react with water unless painted/coated or otherwise protected)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-20 04:19:29 and read 61910 times.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 1):
Not to mention the strong drift leading into the WA current.

The West Australian Current does run North East but there is a counter current, The Leeuwin Current which runs North South along the Western Australian Coast and so debris may not end up on the West Australian Coast

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: YoungMans
Posted 2014-03-20 04:22:35 and read 61846 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 71):
AIS TypeCargo ship
Flag China
DestinationNAN TONG

Lat/Lon 51.55488 S / 92.59757 E
Course/Speed 176.8 ° / 49.7 kn.


This seems to be a strange cargo ship, zooming along at 49.7 knots.
Maybe whatever they are now looking for fell off that ship!?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-20 04:28:47 and read 60886 times.

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 88):
This seems to be a strange cargo ship, zooming along at 49.7 knots.

No cargo ship can go that fast, not even the fastest destroyer can.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: scouseflyer
Posted 2014-03-20 04:30:18 and read 60724 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 86):
Tom, I meant that any metal between Li and U (The common crust metals) would sink if buoyancy failed. Of course no one would make a plane from any metal close to U.

Strangley depleted Uranium is / was used in planes for trim weights (as it's really heavy)

Depleted Uranium In Boeing 747? (by Bjornstrom May 17 2006 in Tech Ops)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: affirmative
Posted 2014-03-20 04:32:36 and read 60349 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 76):

Maybe not 16h but quite close. The BBJ has quite impressive range with all the aux tanks fitted. 13-14h endurance is in the ballpark I believe. Obviously the extra weight and equipment on the P8 takes up the space I still wouldn't be surprised of a 10h endurance.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-20 04:32:48 and read 60403 times.

I really really hope the search west of the Australian coast lead to something... I have a tremendous fear of hearing in the next press conference something like " We find out that the images released earlier are just floating garbage not related with MH370"..... that will be devastating for the families and will erase the credibility of the authorities in charge of the operation.

On a side note, I read somewhere that the depth of the ocean in that area is around 10.000/13.000 ft., can someone confirm?

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tomlee
Posted 2014-03-20 04:33:13 and read 60255 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 90):
Strangley depleted Uranium is / was used in planes for trim weights (as it's really heavy)

Didn't know that, but I guess it is a good counterweight similar to lead. At least they had the mindset to phase that out to use something more normal like tungsten.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2014-03-20 04:34:51 and read 60286 times.

The possible discovery of debris of the MH370 lost aircraft are dominating the morning new here in the eastern USA, setting up another round hope as to where it ended up but also too many 'experts' and commentators speculating. Of course, they are ignoring many important stories like the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

These possible discovery of debris also means family of victims will begin to have some closure, but as some media commentators will note, we still want the main parts of the remains of this a/c to figure out what happened, to put in policies and changes in equipment to prevent another such event and to possibly recover remains of those on board to give their families closure for their losses. As I posted a number of parts ago, for those from China and of other cultures involved in this loss, they want and need the bodies to properly bury them as their culture defines.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-20 04:37:27 and read 59854 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 92):

I really really hope the search west of the Australian coast lead to something... I have a tremendous fear of hearing in the next press conference something like " We find out that the images released earlier are just floating garbage not related with MH370"..... that will be devastating for the families and will erase the credibility of the authorities in charge of the operation.

The authorities have been rather cautious in their statements and have tried to manage expectations, but then again the media has been working hard to fuel the fire.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mouldypete
Posted 2014-03-20 04:38:02 and read 59756 times.

VAMPI
I have tried to find this acronym in several Aviation glossaries without success. 777Jet used it in his excellent post reply 6 on thread 38 where he calculates a new extreme range for the a/c.

"The latest bloomberg article has the following: "The Boeing 777 was carrying 49.1 metric tons (54.1 tons) of fuel when it departed Kuala Lumpur, for a total takeoff weight of 223.5 tons, according to Subang Jaya-based Malaysian Air."

Based on my own calculations, this would give it apprx 8hrs (480min) total range for this aircrafts vintage, climbing and then flying along at M.84/485TAS @ Opt FLs.
TOW 223.5t
ZFW ~ 174.4t (payload ~25.4t)
OFF fuel 49.1t

The 777-200ER T892 will burn apprx 6.1t per hour on avg, at those wts and FLs.

VAMPI would likely be reach 82min after takeoff, via the DCT PIBOS R208 IGARI DCT VAMPI routing.
398min (6.6hrs) range from VAMPI @ 485KTAS = 3217nm . Heck thats almost to the Kerguelen Islands."

Please can anyone enlighten me as to its translation?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-20 04:39:34 and read 59630 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 92):
I have a tremendous fear of hearing in the next press conference something like " We find out that the images released earlier are just floating garbage not related with MH370"..... that will be devastating for the families and will erase the credibility of the authorities in charge of the operation.

Why would finding debris that was not part of the missing aircraft erase the credibility of the authorities?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: imatams
Posted 2014-03-20 04:40:06 and read 59365 times.

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 96):
VAMPI

Is a waypoint in de northern part of the strait of Malacca.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-20 04:41:21 and read 59432 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 94):
The possible discovery
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 94):
These possible discovery

Possible being the key word. There are too many media reports saying "the plane was finally located", and that is absolutely false for now, we still don't know for sure if these things spotted are related to MH370 or not. ...as usual, media outlets are in a desperate race to say something first, without checking the facts.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-20 04:41:40 and read 59696 times.

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 96):
VAMPI
I have tried to find this acronym in several Aviation glossaries without success. 777Jet used it in his excellent post reply 6 on thread 38 where he calculates a new extreme range for the a/c.

"The latest bloomberg article has the following: "The Boeing 777 was carrying 49.1 metric tons (54.1 tons) of fuel when it departed Kuala Lumpur, for a total takeoff weight of 223.5 tons, according to Subang Jaya-based Malaysian Air."

Based on my own calculations, this would give it apprx 8hrs (480min) total range for this aircrafts vintage, climbing and then flying along at M.84/485TAS @ Opt FLs.
TOW 223.5t
ZFW ~ 174.4t (payload ~25.4t)
OFF fuel 49.1t

The 777-200ER T892 will burn apprx 6.1t per hour on avg, at those wts and FLs.

VAMPI would likely be reach 82min after takeoff, via the DCT PIBOS R208 IGARI DCT VAMPI routing.
398min (6.6hrs) range from VAMPI @ 485KTAS = 3217nm . Heck thats almost to the Kerguelen Islands."

Please can anyone enlighten me as to its translation?

You're probably going to kick yourself after you read this. VAMPI is not an acronym. Just like PIBOS and IGARI which are also mentioned it is a waypoint designator. You can find it on the high-level chart here: http://skyvector.com/?ll=6.182061675...4&chart=304&zoom=3&plan=F.WM.VAMPI

DCT PIBOS R208 IGARI DCT VAMPI means "direct PIBOS then airway R208 to IGARI then direct VAMPI"

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 04:41:52 and read 59447 times.

Quoting Mouldypete (Reply 96):

Please can anyone enlighten me as to its translation?

VAMPI is a waypoint name.

VAMPI IGARI IGREX etc.

http://www.fallingrain.com/waypoint/MY/VAMPI.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-20 04:41:59 and read 60187 times.

The Norwegian ship Höegh St. Petersburg arrived at the position about an hour ago and is currently searching:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/03/20/n...er/utenriks/flymysteriet/32401061/

Apparently fist ship on the scene ...

[Edited 2014-03-20 04:43:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-20 04:50:08 and read 58626 times.

Quoting art (Reply 97):
Why would finding debris that was not part of the missing aircraft erase the credibility of the authorities?

In the eyes of the families affected, I think that is a big possibility because they have expectations that could be disappointed one more time. You must remeber that this poor people was told that the aircraft went missing in the Gulf of Tahiland....then they were informed about the Strait of Malacca.... than the north arc....the south arc.... the Maldives.... the Indian Ocean... no wait, we found something west of Australian coast.... but no we were wrong again.... I can only imagine the ordeal this people is going through, and I will be very upset with the authorities if my son, or father or sister was a pax of MH370 ( although I know, here in my comfotable chair, that they are probably doing the best they can and judging them could be really unfair ).

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-20 04:51:06 and read 58988 times.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 71):
It looks like it's been stationary for 10hrs or more. Wondering if they've spotted something.
Quoting YoungMans (Reply 88):
Lat/Lon 51.55488 S / 92.59757 E
Course/Speed 176.8 ° / 49.7 kn.

I am wondering what leads you two to expect accurate AIS data from the middle of the Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: vfw614
Posted 2014-03-20 05:05:12 and read 57402 times.

Quoting affirmative (Reply 91):
Maybe not 16h but quite close. The BBJ has quite impressive range with all the aux tanks fitted. 13-14h endurance is in the ballpark I believe. Obviously the extra weight and equipment on the P8 takes up the space I still wouldn't be surprised of a 10h endurance.

Problem is that the P8 on such a mission will not cruise at 40.000ft, but fly a search pattern skimming the waves, so to speak. Not exactly a fuel-saving operation...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-20 05:11:31 and read 56551 times.

The search is deffinetly in different waters now ... Apparently the depths can be up to 4000 meters in this area ... Far from the shallow waters of the Gulf of Thailand ...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 05:11:42 and read 56836 times.

Radio announcer here just said the debris is not from the plane.

Not sure how they know already.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: bond007
Posted 2014-03-20 05:14:56 and read 56139 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 75):
A P3 and a P8 are quite different sadly.

I am pretty sure no 737 (P8) could fly for 16 hours, even with AUX tanks.

Although apparently the P-8 has an endurance of up to 14 hours, so with it's it's faster speed (20% faster?), it will obviously get to a location quicker than a P-3 and potentially even stay on location longer.

Jimbo

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2014-03-20 05:16:25 and read 55943 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 110):

Radio announcer here just said the debris is not from the plane.

Not sure how they know already.

Misunderstood US Navy reports?

Quote:
Jim Clancy
@clancycnn
Report U.S. Poseidon P8 aircraft did not find any debris linked to #MH370 but NOT looking in same area as "satellite" photo released...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: liquidair
Posted 2014-03-20 05:18:32 and read 56236 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 113):

Jon Williams Foreign editor, ABC News tweets: Only things seen by US P-8 spotter searching for debris from #MH370, a freighter in remote area and two pods of dolphins says @WrightUps


...or maybe this....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-20 05:20:43 and read 55597 times.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 65):
One report said an RAAF base north of Perth, so I guess RAAF Base Pearce.

Correct

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 67):
Australian AP-3C's are based in RAAF Base Edinburgh, north of Adelaide. However they may be staging from RAAF Pearce outside Perth.

Correct, they have also been continuously deployed at Butterworth for 20 years, and a regular visitor to the Cocos Island. They have also been deployed in more recent times in the middle east and Afghanistan.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 70):
I wonder how P-3 Orion can have such an impressive endurance of 16 hours?

The book figure is a little higher than 16 hrs, over 17 hrs, there is a normal and overload (military) TOW, the high endurance flights are with little payload, and no external stores. A normal SAR profile would have them transit to the zone at around 20,000ft, then go down to the search altitude, and then climb back up again to 20,000 for the transit home.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 71):
Chinese 'cargo ship'

The typical PLA-N "cargo" of antennas and electronics ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: AirKorea
Posted 2014-03-20 05:45:53 and read 52256 times.

Below is what I wrote in March 15 in MH 370 PART 29. And my speculation turns out to be 100% right.

---------------------------------------------------------
As I have seen and heard MH 370 mystery over the last nine days, and many released facts and data, and even speculations,
My pesonal conclusion is below,

1. MH 370 crashed, with NO FUEL(100%), in the southern Indean Ocean, far away from South Africa, Australia, Indoneisa and India.
-> MH 370 took off with 7hours and half fuel. normally, it took 6 hour flight from KL to Beijing. and one hour and half for extra.
MH 370 turn left in the middle of Malaysia and Vietnam sea and flew to north west of Penang and turn left to the Indian Ocean.
It is totally opposite direction of the scheduled route. It mean the plane flew to the Indian Ocean for 5 and 6 hours from KL.
-> So, please no not search in Andar sea, Bengal Bay, Malacca Strait, South China Sea. it is wast of time and money.Go to the Southern part of the Indian Ocean. the plane was crashed there on purpose to aviod search. Maybe U.S government
has many data and fact while others are almost blind.

2. The reason why the plane flew to the Indian Ocean
-> if the plane flew to the India/Middle East/Cental Asia route, obviously it was caught in radar screen or even shoot down
even though the radar system and aviation system of those countries are relatively poor. It is, in my opinion, the PILOT who eventually decided to suiside(I do not know the reason) who on purpose flew to where
little or no radar and even very, very few flights and ships on voyage. the INDIAN OCEAN is the third lagest sea in the world
and with geographcal nature, its average water level is almost 3,600meter, which is deeper than Atlantic Ocean. Pacifc Ocean might be the final destination for Pilot but, you know there are a lot of U.S navy ships.
And the most apparent clue is that sothern Indian Ocean is the opposite of KL-Beijing Route. It mean, Pilot, ON PURPOSE,
flew to there to trick our eyes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: StickShaker
Posted 2014-03-20 05:47:59 and read 52071 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 92):
On a side note, I read somewhere that the depth of the ocean in that area is around 10.000/13.000 ft., can someone confirm?
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 106):
The search is deffinetly in different waters now ... Apparently the depths can be up to 4000 meters in this area ... Far from the shallow waters of the Gulf of Thailand ...

Just watched an interview on the Australian ABC channel. The search area is near a ridge approx 2500m deep which gently tapers off at some distance to 4000m. The topography of the ocean floor is much flatter and more amenable to underwater search by ROV than was the case with AF447 in the Atlantic. However, the point of impact of AF447 into the ocean was accurately known giving a much smaller (underwater) search area than will be the case with MH370 - it will take much longer.
Working at those depths was said to be well within the capabilities of modern ROV's and multiple ROV's would be used to speed up the search.


Cheers,
StickShaker

[Edited 2014-03-20 05:58:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: EI747SYDNEY
Posted 2014-03-20 05:59:22 and read 50311 times.

Crazy to think, but we are living out one of the biggest aviation mysteries ever.

To think in this day and age we are still none the wiser to locating the plane.

You could not make this up!

Robbie



     

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: trnswrld
Posted 2014-03-20 06:02:31 and read 49736 times.

What satellite images of debris is everyone talking about? I went through this entire thread and the previous one and saw nothing. Kinda surprised to not see them re-linked to on this page.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 06:04:16 and read 49915 times.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 113):
What satellite images of debris is everyone talking about? I went through this entire thread and the previous one and saw nothing. Kinda surprised to not see them re-linked to on this page.
http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/incidents/images/DIGO_00718_01_14.jpg

http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/incidents/images/DIGO_00718_02_14.jpg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: buckrogers68
Posted 2014-03-20 06:04:52 and read 49708 times.

As many other new posters have said, long time lurker....

I've been avoiding this thread for the last few days, but did read up to part 28 rather religiously.

Quoting KIAS (Reply 1):
Not to mention the strong drift leading into the WA current.
Quoting Razza74 (Reply 86):
The West Australian Current does run North East but there is a counter current, The Leeuwin Current which runs North South along the Western Australian Coast and so debris may not end up on the West Australian Coast

Looking at the "B-Roll" video posted by the AMSA, I discovered this, which IMHO could be tracking the floating debris path. Any ideas/confirmation ?



SOURCE:
http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/incidents/mh370-search.asp

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-20 06:05:05 and read 49729 times.

Quoting AirKorea (Reply 111):
And my speculation turns out to be 100% right.

The aircraft has not yet been found. When you made your prediction there was roughly a 50% chance that it would be found on the southern "arc" rather than the northern one. Even if this turns out to be MH370, it would be a while before the reasons could be known. So I'd hold off on the "100% right" claim for now.  

Edit: Typo

[Edited 2014-03-20 06:22:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2014-03-20 06:07:46 and read 49345 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
Quoting 77west (Reply 13):
Quoting garpd (Reply 11):
Fairly improbably. The tail on the 777 is metal. If the rudder were to detach, that might float as it is a honeycomb structure with composite layers. Lots of trapped air.

The tail of the 777 is composite not metal.
Indeed. It could float either way though. Boeing didn't build it to be heavy so there are likely a lot of air spaces inside.
Quoting 77west (Reply 13):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):Indeed. It could float either way though. Boeing didn't build it to be heavy so there are likely a lot of air spaces inside.

Quite true. Even metal can float given the right conditions. IE Buoyancy.

The composite material used in aircraft construction by Airbus, Boeing or any other company are not lighter than sea water for their volume.

They will NOT float when placed in water. They will sink.

The principle of displacement makes things float.

Basically if the weight of an object is more than the weight of the volume of water it displaces - it sinks.

If the weight of the object is less than the weight of the volume of water it displace - it floats.

Aluminum weighs between 2.7 (pure) and 4.1 10kg to the third power per cubic meter / 167 to 256 lbs per cubic foot.

Composites are only about 20% lighter than Aluminum. - 2.16-3.28 10kg to the third power per cubic meter / 133.6 to 204.8 lbs per cubic foot.

Sea Water weighs in at near 63 lbs per cubic foot.

Composite structures such as a tail fin require trapped air to displace more than 55% of their weight to be able to float.

Aluminum structures such as a tail fin require trapped air to displace more than 65% of their weight to be able to float.


Composite structures can be lighter than aluminum, but they are not lighter than water.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: SimonDanger
Posted 2014-03-20 06:10:04 and read 48984 times.

Quoting MadameConcord: The typical PLA-N "cargo" of antennas and electronics ?

Yup, those Chinese. Very good listeners, they.   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-20 06:13:37 and read 48514 times.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 118):

Let me fix that for you:

Quoting zeke (Reply 109):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 71):Chinese 'cargo ship'
The typical PLA-N "cargo" of antennas and electronics ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-20 06:16:07 and read 47939 times.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 112):
the point of impact of AF447 into the ocean was accurately known giving a much smaller (underwater) search area than will be the case with MH370 - it will take much longer. Working at those depths was said to be well within the capabilities of modern ROV's and multiple ROV's would be used to speed up the search.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the underwater search grid for AF447 was 100km x 100km. I do not know how much of that grid was searched before the aircraft was found but it took about 2 years to search at most 10,000 sq km. How large would the underwater search grid be if the objects spotted from satellite proved to be from MH370? After 2 weeks of drifting I guess the underwater search grid would be much larger than 10,000sq km and it would likely take many years to find the aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-20 06:16:59 and read 47941 times.

Kudos to the AMSA for keeping the world updated with their twitter feed and web site.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 06:20:07 and read 47460 times.

Quoting AirKorea (Reply 110):

You are still not 100% correct,

Also who told you Radar system in India, Middle east and central asia is poor?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-20 06:28:12 and read 46431 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 119):

It also goes the other way round, of course. 

Let's not forget the USN EP-3E Orion incident near Hainan Island.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: TruemanQLD
Posted 2014-03-20 06:30:18 and read 46038 times.

This has probably been discussed but who will handle the investigation IF the aircraft is found in the Australian search and rescue area? I would imagine any aircraft 'pieces' would be taken to Perth as simply easier than taking everything to Malaysia/USA/China (though I could be wrong). Can anyone shed some light? Is it more likely for the Australians to say 'we don't want the investigation' and pass it on to someone else?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 06:30:39 and read 46234 times.

A press conference in Oslo, Norway is about to begin regarding the Norwegian ship in the search operations. It is arranged by Höegh Autoliners, the vessel owner and the Norwegian Shipowners Association.

[Edited 2014-03-20 06:32:08]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Bronwyn
Posted 2014-03-20 06:32:37 and read 45912 times.

I still maintain they are heroes who were in an extreme situation...but given the issues Shah had with the government of Malaysia, if he was trying to make them "look bad" with a suicide mission, it certainly worked. It seems they didn't need much help to bungle this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: TheRedBAron
Posted 2014-03-20 06:33:38 and read 46389 times.

I don't think they are the missing plane debris, not trying to be a Debbie downer here, but USA has spy sat everywhere with very nice resolution...find it hard to believe this is taking so long..(confirmation of the crash)

TRB

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: musang
Posted 2014-03-20 06:34:51 and read 46226 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 72):
The Nimrod has jets but it can still perform the same trick as its engines have a small frontal area.

The Nimrod also used to loiter on two engines.

Regards - musang

P.S. I haven't read all 38 previous threads - has this been referenced yet ---

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

posted in "Wired" two days ago, its an explanation for the original left turn.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: trnswrld
Posted 2014-03-20 06:38:31 and read 45680 times.

Well those satellite images are sure disappointing. They look nothing more than a couple waves and nothing different from any of the other water action around it. I was hoping the images showed something definitive, atleast thats what i got from reading some peoples replies. One guy says he sees a galley and a toilet? wtf lol I see a few waves.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-20 06:40:05 and read 45351 times.

What would a crew do in a total failure of comms and nav equipment, with only the standby compass remaining?

So no GPS, no INS, no VOR/DME/NDB, no VHF, no HF, no satcom...

Is such a scenario even possible?


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 06:43:10 and read 45134 times.

Quoting musang (Reply 128):

It's unlikely, and it's been posted approximately one billion times.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-20 06:45:45 and read 44905 times.

Based on the parties involved in what appears to be a fairly high-intensity search, I would say that there is a sincere belief that this is possibly MH370. We really haven't seen this kind of action over the past 10 days.

Quote:
“The Australian Maritime Safety Authority is coordinating the southern corridor search for the missing Malaysia Airlines aircraft with the Australian Defense Force, the Royal New Zealand Air Force, and the United States Navy,” said AMSA chief John Young to reporters. ...

from

Australia Continues Search for Possible Malaysia Air Debris in Indian Ocean - Object May be 79 Feet Long Says Australian Maritime Chief

.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: pstyl
Posted 2014-03-20 06:48:49 and read 44232 times.

You can watch the press conference (live) here right now:
http://beta.dbtv.no/3365749946001#3365749946001

Looks like they're doing "limited" night-time search right now, with normal full-scale search resuming tomorrow.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-20 06:50:15 and read 44074 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 125):
A press conference in Oslo, Norway is about to begin regarding the Norwegian ship in the search operations. It is arranged by Höegh Autoliners, the vessel owner and the Norwegian Shipowners Association.

Indeed. The search is currently being suspended due to darkness, but will continue in the morning.

Don't know if you People around the world can watch the video, but they indicate where the ship is located

http://beta.dbtv.no/3365749946001#3365749946001

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: COOEE
Posted 2014-03-20 06:51:58 and read 44110 times.

I guess there will be boats there soon. Seems a Norwegian craft, a car carrier Hoegh St. Petersburg, is close and China is redirecting an Icebreaker up there - or south, depending where you are from.
4 Orions from RAAF and I believe, one from NewZealand and one from the USAF are in the mix searching. still no proof until someone picks up a bit of aircraft flotsam. (if they do find aircraft parts floating, I doubt it would be from any other aircraft !!) - but it could still be just any debris.

Am I right that any black box would only record the last 2 hours of conversation?.
It would not be any help here, having the 777 fly on such a long automated flight.

I bet, or I believe, the Pilot was trying to reset an emergency landing to Langkawi, Malaysia - or maybe just back to KL.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_te...ory_about_a_fire_and_langkawi.html

Has anyone seen this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c6P42WxyPM&feature=player_embedded

I don't know how accurate the waypoints indicated were navigated - I'm guessing not - just the instinct to a safe known landing strip. What was the huge altitude gain to 45,000ft? - was that to put out a fire out?, or were the pilot and crew disabled before that huge height gain. Any wreckage would obviously help the forensics - but I'm doubting if this case will ever get solved as far as the cause.

I never believed it could ever be a hijacking, or if any hijacker planned to send the craft on such a long distance -- ( low impact) terrorist cause. I think it all will roost with maintenance or structural failure here, or a fatal combination of both.

I doubt Malaysian Airlines or Boeing will be wanting that outcome.
But, I think Malaysian Airlines and the Malaysian Government have had to handle something totally unexpected. Especially how long it has dragged out, that has been very damaging for all involved and so incredibly painful for all the relatives, who expected some efficient, reliable Corporate/Government outcome.
I think all have all been treading water until this recent find, and god forbid this could have caught out any airline.

I also find it tragically comic that so many military radars seem to have be switched off, perhaps they are never switched on, or ever staffed.

I once landed at Learmonth airstrip ( Exmouth, WA) on a commercial flight, and was advised, politely, as we taxied to the ramp "not to take any photographs out of the window as this is a military RAAF base" Well all I could see were empty hardened concrete bunkers for F111's that were obviously not there, and only one or 2 RAAF trainers. so I guess that was what I was not to photograph, eel I didn't, But there was no mention of blogging about it.

Regards

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: akberc
Posted 2014-03-20 06:52:49 and read 43834 times.

Quoting Bronwyn (Reply 126):
I still maintain they are heroes who were in an extreme situation...but given the issues Shah had with the government of Malaysia, if he was trying to make them "look bad" with a suicide mission, it certainly worked. It seems they didn't need much help to bungle this.

Agree that most likely it was failure of comms in an unprecedented sequence.

However, what else could the Malaysians have done? As the data poured in, they ruled out Malaysian land in 1 day, South China sea in 3 days, Straits of Malacca in 5 days. They shared information with other countries and promptly acted on whatever intelligence they received from others. It took days for radar tapes and satellite data to be analyzed.

They have not released anything prematurely, and have taken care of the families. Honestly, what else could they have done?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 06:52:53 and read 43800 times.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 124):
This has probably been discussed but who will handle the investigation IF the aircraft is found in the Australian search and rescue area? I would imagine any aircraft 'pieces' would be taken to Perth as simply easier than taking everything to Malaysia/USA/China (though I could be wrong). Can anyone shed some light? Is it more likely for the Australians to say 'we don't want the investigation' and pass it on to someone else?

While air accidents within a territorial boundary are handled by the country in which the accident occurred I think air accidents in international waters are handled by the country in which the aircraft is registered. They can of course of request outside help or (I think) ask another country to investigate on their behalf if they lack the capability to conduct an investigation themselves.

I'm not 100% sure if this is correct. If I'm mistaken then my apologies.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 06:52:54 and read 43924 times.

Not much information in the Norwegian press conference:

Höegh Autoliners received the request to participate in the search operation two days ago. The vessel is owned and operated by Höegh Autoliners and is taking part in the SAR operation.

The vessel is now operating under instructions of Australian search and rescue center. The vessel is operating at low speed. There is a crew of 19 and and they are all Philippines. They are doing limited search during the night with all the lights on and the full seach will continue tomorrow. The search is performed on the deck with binoculars. The planes will return tomorrow.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: pstyl
Posted 2014-03-20 06:55:40 and read 43794 times.

Regarding the Norwegian press conference: interestingly, they say that they'll be the only vessel there tomorrow as well, so I imagine it'll be a while before the other vessels get there. That does indicate a high level of interest in this particular area.

And the Norwegian team delivering the press conference emphasized, as Finn350 mentioned, that they wouldn't necessarily have the latest updates because the ship reports to the Australian SAR.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2014-03-20 06:58:01 and read 43107 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 138):
The search is performed on the deck with binoculars

It has been said earlier that they are also using radar ( Don't know what kind ... Sonar ? )

[Edited 2014-03-20 07:05:03]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-20 07:02:36 and read 42708 times.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 106):
Although apparently the P-8 has an endurance of up to 14 hours, so with it's it's faster speed (20% faster?), it will obviously get to a location quicker than a P-3 and potentially even stay on location longer.

P8-Is have mid-air refueling capability, it is not clear on P8-As. It appears some earlier builds may not have this capability.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mir
Posted 2014-03-20 07:05:47 and read 42675 times.

Quoting musang (Reply 128):
P.S. I haven't read all 38 previous threads - has this been referenced yet ---

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

posted in "Wired" two days ago, its an explanation for the original left turn.

I'm very disappointed that that's been getting as much traction as it has over the past few days (especially from Wired, who I thought was better than that), as it has some very inaccurate information in it.

For one, wheel fires do not start happening two hours into cruise. The wheel wells are too cold for easy ignition, and there is very little oxygen at altitude to fuel the fire. Any fire that started would start after takeoff when the wheels were hottest, and would present itself over the course of the next few minutes, not wait another couple of hours to start causing smoke problems (it would have burned out by then). What's more, a wheel well fire would not have caused cabin smoke, as the wheel wells are outside the pressure vessel. The DC-8 accident he referred to was a structural failure of the airplane, not a smoke problem.

His comment about the oxygen masks being a no-no in the case of fire couldn't be more wrong. It's true that I wouldn't want the passenger masks deploying in the case of a fire, as they don't seal particularly well and will leak oxygen into the cabin. But modern crew masks seal onto your face like a ravenous octopus - the chances of a leak are very low, more than low enough to justify that risk as opposed to the near-certainty of being overcome by smoke if you don't wear it.

Thirdly, while I can believe the existence of an electrical fire, I have a hard time believing the existence of one that both was so rapid as to overwhelm and incapacitate the crew and yet allowed the plane to keep flying as long as the SATCOM pings say it did. SR111 was a very bad fire, and the aircraft hit the water 30 minutes after the crew detected it (and less than 10 minutes after it started causing instrument failures). MH370 is supposed to have flown on for hours, which means any fire would have to be fairly slow-burning - if that's the case, the crew should have had plenty of time to get their masks on and at least get the plane headed toward a nearby airport. They might have not made it, but the crash would be close-in to shore.

All in all, I'm not buying it.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 130):
What would a crew do in a total failure of comms and nav equipment, with only the standby compass remaining?

So no GPS, no INS, no VOR/DME/NDB, no VHF, no HF, no satcom...

Is such a scenario even possible?

It's possible, sure, though very unlikely. If it's a clear night (which I believe it was), you can navigate by city lights, find an airport, and land. Depending on your knowledge of geography, the airport you pick might not be the most suitable for the landing you need to do (likely without the aid of flaps, thus necessitating a longer runway), but even if you run off the end of the runway you would at least do so at a relatively low speed, and the event should be survivable.

-Mir

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: akberc
Posted 2014-03-20 07:06:56 and read 42544 times.

If the South Indian Ocean sighting turns out to be real, it would be an amazing piece of mathematical analysis by Inmarsat folks and others -- just going by the radio wave time differential as they round-trip from the same satellite.

The north and south arcs would be calculated by less than half a millisecond of differential from the last ping, and the focus on the specific area in the South Indian Ocean would be calculated by an imaginary line between other arcs from the pings before the last ping. The intersection of the two lines is the area that was being searched.

If fruitful, good analytic mathematical work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mouldypete
Posted 2014-03-20 07:09:07 and read 42140 times.

Quoting AirKorea (Reply 110):
MH 370 turn left in the middle of Malaysia and Vietnam sea and flew to north west of Penang and turn left to the Indian Ocean.

I understood that the last confirmed radar position was at 2:15am and the heading was NW.

Presumably this comment refers to the turn left to the Northwest (from NW of Penang) towards the last known position.

Or did I miss something?

This last know heading, referred to above, is remarkably close in heading to the extreme track to bring a full range flight to the 40 degree satellite calculation.
http://mh370.wikia.com/wiki/Special:NewFiles?file=Final_map_2.jpg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 07:18:28 and read 40707 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 140):
It has been said earlier that they are also using radar ( Don't know what kind ... Sonar ? )

Their sonar is probably limited to a depth sounder which wouldn't (AFAIK) be able to detect pings from the boxes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-20 07:20:18 and read 40555 times.

Quoting COOEE (Reply 135):
I also find it tragically comic that so many military radars seem to have be switched off, perhaps they are never switched on, or ever staffed.

Who knows, that´ll never come out. Its either inefficiency as you indicate, or that some state prefers to say nothing even if they could because they think keeping a military secret is more important than finding 239 poor souls. I do not think the latter is the case though as the only one I see able to act that way would be North Korea, which is out of question.

Quoting COOEE (Reply 135):
I never believed it could ever be a hijacking, or if any hijacker planned to send the craft on such a long distance -- ( low impact) terrorist cause. I think it all will roost with maintenance or structural failure here, or a fatal combination of both.
I doubt Malaysian Airlines or Boeing will be wanting that outcome.

Everybody would want an outcome where the people are still alive and the plane intact on some remote jungle strip. 0,01% chance for that now I´m afraid.
As it has crashed somewhere with a high probability what everyone wants to hear is that the agony did not took long.
The least Malaysia Airlines wants is that it was pilot suicide, or a maintenance related cause.
The least Boeing wants is that it was structural failure.
The least everyone else wants is that it was terrorism.

[Edited 2014-03-20 07:32:19]

[Edited 2014-03-20 07:33:12]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: COOEE
Posted 2014-03-20 07:25:41 and read 40061 times.

Sorry I ment to post this Url
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c6P42WxyPM&feature=player_embedded
and point to the precedent set by Cypriot Helios Airways flight 522, 14 August 2005. 
There is an Australian Beechcraft 200 King Air flight back in 2000 and Lear 35 carrying the golfer Payne Stewart back in 1999 all attributed to crashing due to Hypoxia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-20 07:32:27 and read 39050 times.

Sorry if this has been posted but I've looked high and low and haven't found it. Whose satellite made the images? I assume it was an Australian defense satellite? Is it possible it was a US defense asset and they're passing the info to the Australians as the lead SAR for that geographical area?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2014-03-20 07:36:36 and read 38653 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 139):
It has been said earlier that they are also using radar ( Don't know what kind ... Sonar ? )

I'm pretty sure its actual radar. Its not that expensive to equip a ship with it, and when you are talking about the value pretty much any commercial ship of size is worth, they are going to spend some money on good surface radar to prevent collisions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-20 07:37:25 and read 38919 times.

The pictures released so far look like empty containers that fell off a container ship to me. Obviously deformed from water impact, but this happens all the time.

In any case, I have to think the scale is wrong. What's 24 meters on a plane that looks like that? Someone mentioned the galley/toilet area - that certainly is not 24 meters long, not even close. 24 meters is a little more than 1/3 the length of the entire plane. This doesn't appear to be a wing, so I think whatever it is, it's probably smaller than 24 meters... which means it's just as likely to be a container that fell off a ship.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about: http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/21/world/container-ship-loses-containers/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2014-03-20 07:39:30 and read 38414 times.

Quoting 77west (Reply 74):
A P3 and a P8 are quite different sadly.

I am pretty sure no 737 (P8) could fly for 16 hours, even with AUX tanks.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 141):
P8-Is have mid-air refueling capability, it is not clear on P8-As. It appears some earlier builds may not have this capability.

P-8A do have air to air refueling capability. Question is, is there tanker in the area to perform the function and whether the new P-8A have trained in the maneuver?

Besides, when you are in the plane for 10+ hours, how effective will you be in a find a needle in a hay stack? Sleeper seat not withstanding. The P-8 would probably be more comfortable than the P-3 getting to the search site.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 88):

Strangley depleted Uranium is / was used in planes for trim weights (as it's really heavy)

Maybe at one time . . . now Boeing use Tungsten for trim weights.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 117):

Composite structures can be lighter than aluminum, but they are not lighter than water.

True, the real question is whether the 777 horizontal stabilizer in question have a tail tank. If yes, then like the wing, the tanks will be sealed. Having ran out of fuel, the tanks would be mostly empty and the wing would be able to float as the sealant will keep the water out. If the 777 horizontal stabilizer is not sealed, there may still be a chance that the lighting holes wont allow any sea water from entering the structure.

The elevator and rudders (control surfaces) are honeycomb panels. They are more likely to stay afloat longer. Same thing applies to the wing control surfaces.

24 m seems to be too big for anything inside the fuselage except maybe a floor panel (which are also honeycomb panels)?

bt

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 07:41:03 and read 38337 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 147):
Sorry if this has been posted but I've looked high and low and haven't found it. Whose satellite made the images? I assume it was an Australian defense satellite? Is it possible it was a US defense asset and they're passing the info to the Australians as the lead SAR for that geographical area?

The copyright on the images is by DigitalGlobe. They seem to have a link to Tomnod crowdsourcing campaign.

http://www.digitalglobe.com/

Quote:
DigitalGlobe maintains the largest sub-meter constellation of satellites, including QuickBird, WorldView-1, WorldView-2, IKONOS and GeoEye-1. IKONOS can collect panchromatic and multispectral imagery which can be merged to create 0.80 meter color pan-sharpened imagery. QuickBird is a 0.60 meter, 4-band color satellite, and is capable of collecting multispectral and panchromatic imagery. WorldView-1 is a 50 cm TRUE*, panchromatic satellite and is also capable of collecting in-track stereo imagery. GeoEye-1 acquires 50 cm TRUE* panchromatic and 2.0 meter multispectral imagery. WorldView-2 is a 50 cm TRUE*, 8-band color satellite capable of collecting 2.0 meter multispectral, panchromatic, and in-track stereo imagery.

*Resolution better than 50 cm at nadir with 5m CE90 accuracy


[Edited 2014-03-20 07:41:21]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-20 07:42:23 and read 39220 times.


Sanity Check - 3/20/2014 - 14:00Z
There is (will be) a link to this post in my profile under "homepage"

Formating notes.
New/changed lines will have this background color. All changes are relative to the previous Sanity Check.
Previous Sanity Check here.Pevious Sanity Check thread 37 - you will have to expand it. (by rcair1 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)
Minor wording/grammar/spelling changes are NOT highlighted.

3/19/2014 3/20/2014 - 14:00Z update since last Sanity Check.
The facts have not changed much. The a/c has not been found.
I've tried to be as factually accurate as I can - but I'm not an expert in each system - so if there factual errors please advise.
The south "corrider" is receiving equal attention to the north.
Australia is investigating satellite debris west of perth. Nothing confirmed as of this time. (see Search Areas for more)
Created a "Dismissed or Confirmed not true section.

First a synopsis (dropped some old 'breaking news' items)
The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
The last ACARS transmission was 01:07 local.
Reports that ACARS indicated new waypoints were programed into the FMS before LOS have not been clarified in last 24-48 hours.
The last comms were "All right, good night" transmitted to Malaysia at hand-off to Vietnam control. Vietnam was not contacted. It has been reported it was the First Officer's voice.
NOTE: Saying "good night" or "so long" or "see you" is very common for hand-offs.
The transponder stopped transmitting at 1:21 - loss of secondary radar.
There are reports of a climb to 45K, uneven descent and some changes in altitude. Since this is based on primary radar - altitude data is somewhat uncertain. The last has been reported as 29,500ft but that seems in dispute.
The validity of the 45K reports is being questioned.
There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Strait and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does NOT identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370
SATCOM system pings continued for 7+ (last ping at 08:11 local) hrs after LOS (loss of signal)
SATCOM pings do not locate the aircraft but based on correlation to signal strength there are two loci that indication aircraft distance from the Satellite.
These are not paths and I have changed my language to reflect that. They represent a distance from the satellite.
Corridor one is north over Andaman Sea, Bay of Bengal as far as Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and is consistent with primary radar.
Corridor two is south over the India Ocean west of Australia. We've had no reports of radar signals in that area.
The last SATCOM ping was at 8:11 am Malaysian time. At that time it would be dark on the north radius and light over the south radius.
SATCOM pings are hourly - so the 8:11 ping could be up to 1 hour before the aircraft stopped 'pinging'.
We have no ELT signal detected.
While authorities (Malaysian) have not confirmed this is a hijacking or purposeful event - it is believed that is highly likely by most, however, motivation is unknown.
There have been no reports that a Rolls Royce EH report was sent upon landing.

Time-line (from CNN)
1.07 am - Last ACARS transmission.
1.19 am - Last verbal communication "All right, good night" from the plane; believed to be the co-pilot
1.21 am - Transponder stopped transmitting (turned off or failed)
1.30 am - Civilian (primary) radar lost contact
1.37 am - Expected ACARS transmission; not received
2.15 am - Last military primary radar contact
8.11 am - Last (hourly) satellite handshake


ACARS
ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, including navigation, operations, maintenance, etc to ATC and maintenance facilities.
ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight.
ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.
This last fact (only EHM) is somewhat questions because of 3/18 reports of new way-points being programmed. This would require ADS-C
ACARS communicates via VHF, HF or SATCOM. The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.
ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM, HF or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
The last ACARS transmission was at 1:07. The next was expected at 1:37 and was not received. This means ACARS communication was disabled between those times. This could be action by the flight-deck crew or system failure.

ACARS data from MH370
The ACARS system sent 2 engine health reports to Rolls Royce, both prior to the LOS event.
The Rolls Royce page indicates that a 'snapshot' of engine data would be sent at: takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. We know 2 ACARS Engine Health reports were received, consistent with the 1st two.
The last engine health report was received at 1:07am. The next was expected at 1:37 am and was not received. This indicates that the transmission of ACARS data was disabled between 1:07 and 1:37, but not when during that period.
The Engine Health report received prior to LOS had 'interesting' altitude data/fluctuations including 40K drop in a minute. That data is suspect.
There seems to be some indication that ADS-C data with changed way-point information was included in the last ACARS report.
UPDATE: per the transcript of the latest press conference, I believe they Malaysians are saying:
The flight did not deviate prior to LOS
The flight plan was normal - no usual way-points.
This later is not quite the same as denying ACARS data showed way-points had been added.
There has been no clarification of this issue.

ADS-C Tutorial (short).
ADS-C stands for Aircraft Dependent Surveillance - Contract.
The "Dependent" is because it "depends" on the aircraft taking action - as opposed to "independent" like radar..
Contract means there must be a "contract" or "agreement" set up by the controllers an/or crew to send information.
ADS-C is not required to be used.
ADS-C can be programed to report periodically, on demand, on event. It can be initiated by the crew in an emergency.
Various data groups can be sent. The one relevant to this discussion is the Predicted Route Group which includes ETA, altitude, lat/long at next way-point and next+1 way-point.
Prior to 3/18 we had no information that ADS-C was being used, however on 3/18 it was reported that we "know" that new way-points were entered in the FMS prior to LOS.
The only way we know of for this information to be available to authorities is if the ACAR's report at 1:07 included the "Predicted Route Group."
ADS-C is transmitted via ACARS which can use SATCOM, VHF or HF.
ADS-C does not transmit via transponder (thanks for that correction)
A good tutorial on ADS-C is available at http://prezi.com/pcuvxhcklsda/ads-c-overview/

Way-point Entry Data.
On 3/18 authorities reported that new way-points had been entered into the a/c FMS BEFORE the last communication at 1:19.
This information could only be provided by ADS-C in the 1:07 ACARS report.
It was also reported that the aircraft had already turned off course prior to 1:19.
That seems inconsistent with secondary radar data which did not show a course change.
Opinion: I believe "experts" are confusing new way-points being programed and executed.
This is consistent with statements by several "experts" who seem to be really "experts"
It was noted that pilots sometimes program way-points but never execute (fly to them).
After take-off way-points are changed in the cockpit. Experts say non-pilots can't do it, but, in fact, it is not hard and many 'simulator' people do it all the time.
Summary:
Reports are that new way-points (off course) were added to the FMS after takeoff (or perhaps just before).
This information would come from ADS-C in the last ACARS report at 1:07.
This requires flight deck access pointing at either the crew or a breech of cockpit security.
All of this data seems to be based on the same NYT report that is being repeated.
We have not heard if the "new" way-points match those reported earlier in the primary radar track.

Way-point Tracks
A series of way-points reported that match the primary radar tracks in/near Malacca Strait.
These way-points line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just coincidentally along the path.
A 777 can be programed to follow a series of way-point automatically - this is normal operating procedure and a 777 pilot would need no extra practice/training to do it. (Relevant to pilot flight simulator ownership)

SATCOM
SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.
SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.
The SATCOM system on MH370 was connecting to Inmarsat 3 satellites. In the area covered, the only satellite with coverage is IOR.
Since only 1 satellite has coverage, no triangulation is possible. All that can be determined is distance from the satellite. This has been used to define 2 potential loci were the a/c could have been.
North Corridor
.
South Corridor
We do not know if these corridors are defined by the last SATCOM ping, or multiple pings.
We cannot distinguish if the a/c was flying or parked on the ground (powered up) when these pings were sent.
We have not been told how the distance from IOR was estimated - it could be signal strength or time of flight (signal propagation time).Opinion: as an EE I think signal strength is unlikely - it would depend on things such as a/c orientation. Time of flight - which is how GPS works - seems more likely - however others have pointed out this requires precise timing.
NOTE: While these may appear as paths - they are not. They are simply a set of potential locations based upon ping data. The aircraft could have been in a constant standard turn circle somewhere along one of the loci (red lines) and the satellite could not tell. We only know it was somewhere along those lines.

SATCOM Pings
The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites (hourly). These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here."
SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel. They are akin to registration pings on a cell system.
The last pings were detected at 8:11am Malaysia time. This does not mean the aircraft went down or landed at this time, only that the last ping was 8:11. Source I've seen indicate the pings are hourly - but that is not confirmed.
SATCOM pings provide no aircraft heading, speed or altitude information, however, distance from the Satellite can be estimated, and ONLY distance.
Based on analysis of the SATCOM pings by Inmarsat, two possible corridors have been predicted based upon a radius from the satellite picking up the pings.
SATCOM pings would be sent as long as the system (aircraft) was power up and withing coverage area. So, on the ground, if powered up (thanks to mandala499).
People have asked if SATCOM pings could come from a crashed plane if the right parts survived.
Very unlikely. The system is not self contained, the equipment, power and antennas are separate.
Recent news about the fact that the plane could have landed really appears to be just a restatement of known data.
Specifically - the SATCOM pings could have been sent from an aircraft powered, but landed - or from an aircraft in flight.
Clarification: The key is the system is powered, whether by engines, apu or shore line (on the ground).
Again: These pings to not contain ANY data about the aircraft position, speed, altitude, etc.
The 'location' data inferred from the SATCOM pings is based analysis of those signals which gives an approximate distance from the satellite to the a/c.
Since the satellite is in geosynchronous orbit (~22,000 miles), the difference in distance between a flying aircraft and one on the ground is probably not measurable.

Fire Theory (Was Cargo and Lithium Batteries)
OPINION: I've tended to discount this based on my belief as a FF that the a/c could not continue to fly for 7+ hours. However, recent discussions have caused me to re-evaluate that.
Regarding the fire source:
One hypothesis that has been presented is that a fire broke out incapacitated the crew/passengers or caused hypoxia that did so.
(See http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/opinio...er-malaysia-flight-370/)
The hypothesis is:
A fire broke out causing the crew to disable multiple systems (or disabled them itself)
The crew was successful in containing/extinguishing the fire - but then was disable due to smoke and/or hypoxia.
The a/c, not on autopilot, continued to fly till fuel starvation occurred.
Key to this theory is that the aircraft, not on autopilot and not controlled, could remain in stable flight.
For most a/c- this would not be possible. But for the 777 it may - provided the flight control systems did not revert to a degraded state.
Specifically - the 777 will self trim (pitch up/down) to maintain speed. As long as these pitch up/down excursions did not cause stall (too high) or CFIT (crash), the a/c could fly.
The 777 also has bank protections - so banks induced by trim/turbulence would be damped and unlike a non FBW plane that may spiral in - the 777 could conceivable continue flying.
This is by no means proven or accepted, but it seems credible considering the advanced flight controls of an aircraft like the 777 as compared to a non-FBW aircraft.
This does not explain any purposeful heading changes except perhaps the first one which could be a turn to return to safety by the crew.
Other turns that appear to be FMS driven would be just happenstance.
It would be very interesting to hear Boeing's take on this - or to experiment with a 777.
There are reports that the cargo in MH370 did not receive normal X-ray screening (though this has recently been weakly denied)
There are reports of a shipment of lithium batteries on the a/c and that perhaps they caused a fire.
The hold of a passenger a/c like the 777 is protected with Halon and detectors - so a fire in the hold would be detected and suppressed.
fire in the hold is unlikely to impact flight systems or EE bay. Freight a/c are different (thanks Pihero)
Fire suppression systems in the 777 include: Engines, APU, Cargo Holds, Toilets and portable extinguishers in Cabin/Galleys, Flight Deck, Crew Rest. Unprotected - EEbay and Wheel wells.(thanks Pihero)

Hypoxia and Pressurization
There has been lots of speculation about loss of pressurization in the aircraft and what that would do to passengers and crew.
IMPORTANT NOTE: all of this applies to cabin pressure - not the pressure outside.Just climbing to 45K would not exposed the passengers to that altitude - the aircraft would have to be depressurized.
In the case of loss of cabin pressure - O2 mask would deploy automatically.
The pilots cannot disable this above 13,500 feet - they can release the masks.
Passengers masks would last 12-20 minutes. Portable crew (FA) bottles ~30minutes. Cockpit crew longer.
Time of useful consciousness (not to loss of consciousness) will range from 1-3 minutes at 30K to 9-15 seconds at 43K. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)
above 40,000 ft cabin altitude - positive pressure oxygen is required - passenger masks do not do this and would not be effective.
Because of this the a/c must be certified able to descend and pilots demonstrate an emergency descent to ~10,000 ft in 2 minutes.
The actual regulation is that passengers cannot be exposed to a cabin altitude of more than 25K for more than 2 minutes, or more than 40K for any time. (A380 got an exception to this rule.)

Cabin depressurizing by Pilots (this is not as solid as I would like in terms of facts).
NOTE: Above 40K passenger masks are ineffective - positive pressure O2 is required.
Question: Can the pilots 'depressurize' the plane? Yes.
The FAA regulations state the a/c "must be designed so that occupants will not be exposed to cabin pressure altitudes in excess of 15,000 feet (4,600 m) after any probable failure condition in the pressurization system"
So for normal 'failures' - no, the cabin will remain below 15K.
However, per member mandala499 the pilots could: 1) Open outflow valves, 2) turn off bleed air. The cabin would then depressurize to current altitude.
I have no data on how quickly this would happen - but I think it would take minutes at least.
Let's investigate the sequence required and how that is related to the reported "climb to 45K":
1) Pilots (or whomever is in control) switches to manual pressurization, turns off bleed, opens outflow valves.
2) Cabin altitude climbs above 13,500 and passenger masks deploy - there is no way to prevent that. At that point passengers and cabin crew know.
3) Presuming the pilots do not descent - passengers O2 will last 12-20 minutes. After that, depending on the cabin altitude they will loose effective consciousness (not loose consciousness, but effective consciousness).
4) Cabin crew O2 will run out.
5) During this time, the flight crew O2 will operate (and last longer)
6) At some point - depending on cabin altitude - those not on O2 will die (no other way to say it).

The question becomes - how long would this sequence take?
Below 40K cabin altitude - and once the cabin is depressurized- minimum 12-30 minutes for all passengers and cabin crew to become disabled.
Above 40K cabin altitude - I do not know - w/o positive pressure oxygen people will loose effective consciousness in seconds.
With O2, but not positive pressure - will this be extended?
If you descend below 40K with non positive pressure O2 masks still operating - people may recover depending on duration of hypoxia - or may awake with loss of function (brain damage)
Summary:
It appears flight crew (or knowledgeable hijackers) could depressurize the cabin and disable all.
O2 masks would deploy so passengers and cabin crew would know.
This would not be an instantaneous procedure - the biggest factor is how long would it take to depressurize the a/c.

CRV/FDR Data
The CVR (cockpit voice recorder) and FDR (flight data recorder) do not transmit data in flight.
They do emit sonic pings if immersed. These will last a minimum of 30 days. We can expect sonar is being used to listen for them.
The pinger operates at 37.5KHz 106.5dp re 1μPa. (thanks k83713)
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Normal Conditions: 1-2km
Maximum depth of beacon detection in Good Conditions: 4-5km
Localising a pinger from the surface in shallow water is relatively easy, as described above. In deep water, the detection equipment should be installed on a self-propelled underwater vehicle, presupposing that the position is already known to within the maximum 2-3km detection range.
More Info:http://www.hydro-international.com/i...Deepwater_Black_Box_Retrieval.html
The CVR reportedly is a 120 minute CVR so it would contain only the last 120 minutes of flight (presuming it did not fail or was turned off prior to that).
I don't have data form the recording time of the FDR, but it is typically much longer.

ELT
The ELT, or emergency locater transmitter is mounted in the rear of the aircraft - difficult to access in flight.
The ELT is battery powered - independent built in power source. It is this source that is suspect in causing the 787 fire at Heathrow.
The ELT will be trigged by G forces in a crash. It will not operate under water.
The ELT can be triggered from the cockpit - it is a hardwired switch not dependent on computer systems.
The ELT transmits on the guard frequency (VHF) and on 406MHz to satellites. If it had been triggered (above water), satellites would have heard it and been able to locate the a/c.
Clarification: there are additional manual ELT's in the cabin that can be activated by crew members, but do not include g-force sensing.

Primary versus Secondary Radar (brief tutorial)
Primary radar is based on the original military usage. It sends out a strong (KW to MW) signal and looks for a reflection from something.
Primary radar provides distance and location. Comparing returns speed can be determined. Strength of return can indicate size.
Stealth a/c and ships are designed to absorb or miss-direct the reflection so primary radar cannot see them.
Primary radar does not depend on the transponder, so turning off a transponder will not make an a/c disappear from primary.
Primary radar is less prevalent than secondary - and more typically military tho ATC's do use it.
Secondary Radar is really not Radar in the defined sense. It is directional communication.
In secondary radar a directional signal is sent out (much less powerful than primary). Any a/c with a transponder that receives it will respond (the transponder responds) with information about the aircraft.
Combined with the direction of the outgoing beam, the time of flight information and returned information, the a/c location and identity (and other info depending on the mode) is returned.
Secondary radar is the primary method used by ATC.
If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar will not see the a/c.
In the case of MH370
The transponder was turned off - so the a/c disappeared from secondary (ATC) radar.
A target was tracked west, then northwest using primary radar. That target was correlated with SATCOM pings help determine it was MH370.

Airworthiness Directive
The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna

Aircraft Type and Fuel State
The aircraft was a Boeing 777-200ER. MTOW 656,000 lbs, 301 3 class passengers (standard Boeing Config - does not reflect MH specific config.)
The aircraft could land in 6000 ft, or much less at high risk. As little as 3000ft has been stated, but it could not take off from there.
The aircraft would need a hard surface to land - this is heavier that has been done on steel matts.
It is reported the aircraft 45 to 60 minutes extra fuel. This would amount to about 7-7.5 hrs of fuel. This is a normal amount for this route.
The aircraft should have been able to fly about 30 minutes after the last SATCOM ping at 8:11.
The figure at this link show max range for the 777-200ER. NOTE: MH370 was not fueled for this range. http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com.../777_range_singapore.pdf

Search Areas
Along the planed route. I believe searching in this area is ending or decreasing based on new data indicating the a/c is not there
West over the Malacca strait
North west of Malacca strait
Along the two loci predicted by the SATCOM pings which continue north to Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and south to the India Ocean.
It is reported now that both corridors are equally important..
The search area are shrinking due to improved intelligence.
The USS Kidd has been pulled off, but other US resources are operating.
The latest debris reports is west of Australia - based on Satellite images.
Reported to be 24 meters (which is quite large for floating debris) and awash.
That is being investigated by Australian, US and Norwegian (civilian) resources. No further infomation.
Link to satellite images
AMSA Maps http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/incidents/mh370-search.asp

Mobile phones
We continue to have lots of discussion on "mobile phones" - can the connect in flight, etc.
We don't have any reports or evidence of that any passenger or crew mobile phone has registered with any network.
Until we have that data or reports - I believe the mobile phone discussions are not getting us anywhere.
UPDATE: This subject continues to be discussed. But, we have had no reports of cell phones registering with towers - we are in a loop here.

Theories and Conspiracy Theories
Currently, it seems most believe there is some positive action here - hijacker or crew based.
Opinion: Mostly, I believe this is because a mechanical failure that selectively terminates communication, incapacitates the crew/passengers, but then allows the a/c to fly on uncontrolled for 7 hours seems unlikely.
There are lots of theories out there - some clearly "conspiracy based" some just factual. Often it is hard to distinguish.
Here are a few.
A fire broke out that incapacitated passengers and crew - but allowed to aircraft to fly on it's own till starvation.
Corollary to this - the fire would have to disable comms, or cause the crew to disable comms in an attempt to fight it.
Corollary to this - the fire drove the pilots out of the cockpit.
Corollary to this - the fire disabled comms, nav and systems, and the crew - still alive - got lost trying to return.
The a/c was hijacked and flown to a remote strip to be used in a future terrorist act.
Corollary to this - The breadth of the countries searching alone makes this problematic, but it is not impossible.
The aircraft "shadowed" either a KLM or SIA aircraft to hide from radar then turned off the track and landed.
Questions raised - lot of discussion about if this was possible.
A mechanical failure depressurized the a/c and disabled the crew/passengers either rapidly or without their knowledge.
Corollary to this - What disabled comms?
One of the pilots hijacked the plane to commit suicide. (See Pilot Conspiracy below).
The plane was hijacked, either with or without crew involvement.
Despite the belief this is incident required human actions - we have no evidence of that. Rather - no other theory seems credible.
Freescale engineers have been hijacked for sensitive US data. Opinion: As an engineer who has worked with Freescale - I find that unsupportable. Companies send groups of employees around all the time. While many companies have policies about the # of executives on a flight - that typically is not enforced on regular employees.
There was something in the Cargo worth stealing - which is why it was not screened. This would require involvement of lots of people on the ground. Why not steal it on the ground.
The plane was full of undeclared gold.Gold is very heavy - what would you declare the cargo as?
The US hijacked the 777 using on board FBW technology to fly it like a drone to Diego Garcia (this one wins the insanity case).
Related: There has been a claim by counter terrorist expert that this could be a "cyber hijack" - a malicious attack of a FBW a/c. I don't know where to go with this - only reporting it because I'm trying to stay ahead of the next craze. Opinion: (speaking as an EE) this is the stuff dreams are made of (bad dreams).

Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).
The crew and passengers are a focus of investigation. Particularly the crew, because of the difficulty of managing an external cockpit intrusion.
The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
To address the data on a few of these:
1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?
2) The pilot has a very fancy flight simulator. People claim he used it to for this. Opinion: A 777 pilot does not need to train for the flying done - he knows how to do that stuff already. What he needs it planning for violent action/takeover. A flight simulator is no help.
Note - there has been some discussion that the pilot used this for training of accomplices.
3) There are rumors of family problems reported from China. This has been reported as untrue.

Dismissed or Confirmed not True
Chinese Satellite Debris - nothing found in area.
Oil worker report - nothing found in area.
Greek shipping debris - nothing found/not related.
Raft with "Boarding" found - not related
Original 'debris' reports (March 8/9) not related/nothing found.
Maldives low flying a/c - not related.
Pilot family problems - reported as not true.
Cell phones ringing - artifact of the cellular system.

IN summary what we know is.
The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
There is evidence from SATCOM and Radar that the a/c traveled west - then most likely north west.
Hourly SATCOM signals show the a/c was operating till at least 8:11am Malaysia time, over 7 hrs total flight time
We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

Additional thoughts.
A hijacking or positive intervention by human agency seems likely.
The erratic altitude and course may indicate a struggle on board.
While we would like to believe the a/c landed safely somewhere, that seems unlikely to have happened unobserved.


That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-20 07:43:13 and read 38444 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 149):
which means it's just as likely to be a container that fell off a ship.

Containers are typically 40 ft long, or 12 meters.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 07:53:03 and read 37690 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 149):

Strangely enough a container ship mentioned in the article sank in the Indian Ocean less than a year ago, the MOL Comfort. She went down off the coast of Yemen in June 2013, but given tidal currents and elapsed time its certainly possible that containers from that ship could have floated across the Indian Ocean towards Australia.

Just a thought  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: bennett123
Posted 2014-03-20 07:53:41 and read 37480 times.

http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Intermodal_container?lang=en

Actually, they can be up to 56 feet.

Looks like a freight container to me as well.

Furthermore, they do float.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-20 07:54:42 and read 37252 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 147):
Sorry if this has been posted but I've looked high and low and haven't found it. Whose satellite made the images? I assume it was an Australian defense satellite? Is it possible it was a US defense asset and they're passing the info to the Australians as the lead SAR for that geographical area?

The unclassified version is from Digital Globe, we will never know what authorities are using. Keep in mind standard imaging satellites are useless if there is cloud, rain or haze. Even on a clear day ocean waves combined with glare from sun light makes identifying objects on ocean surface makes more difficult.

Images used in commercial applications are stitched using good images from various scans. Gives false impression about their capabilities.

[Edited 2014-03-20 08:02:53]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-20 07:55:44 and read 37187 times.

Quoting musang (Reply 127):

P.S. I haven't read all 38 previous threads - has this been referenced yet ---

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

posted in "Wired" two days ago, its an explanation for the original left turn.

I still do not believe this was a fire event for these simple reasons:

1. A fire, unless explosive, would give the pilots time to issue a mayday. (Countless precedents set)

2. An explosive fire enough to incapacitate the crew and passengers would lead quite quickly to the destruction of the aircraft. A debris field would have been found by now, somewhere along the programmed flight path.

3. It is highly improbable a fire erupted, incapacitated everyone on board, selectively killed the Transponder and ACARS, re-programmed the FMC to send the plane on a different course and then self extinguished to allow the aircraft to fly on for 7 hours.

Quoting Mir (Reply 141):

Just seen your reply. Excellent post!

[Edited 2014-03-20 07:57:33]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: COOEE
Posted 2014-03-20 08:01:19 and read 36393 times.

Yes, na, all your analysis are so valid.
But the time ( search) has has extended beyond any expectations of any survival.
Having to fly such long routes from Sydney to Europe, personally, I just want to run such scenarios
to see how I could cope - or not as the case may be.
I think many would have lost consciousness on that late night red eye flight ( my theory only ) some may have lasted longer, to wonder why they were feeling so crook, or thinking so strangely ( hypoxia ) I think the Crew, especially the Pilot and Co, may have been taken unawares - but made the best decisions - if not in the best state mentally as under a dire onset hypoxic state. I don't believe it was a fire. I speculate that the craft never pressurised, or that the decompression was slower than rapid - or never acknowledged until decisions were made without being conscious of what was happening physically to their states - Hypoixia.
How many Commercial Pilots fly with the oxygen-blood level monitor taped to their finger? Is that where you put it, is it like the surgery pulse clamp thats put on your finger, or is it less intrusive. Is there any cockpit indication or warning of such a scenario - non rapid loss of pressurisation - or an inflight incident leading to such an undetected outcome. ?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 08:11:31 and read 35426 times.

HMS Echo, a Royal Navy survey ship is being sent to the area where the objects were spotted.

She specialises in hydrographic and oceanographic data gathering to help produce ocean navigation charts.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26665580

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DrivesForShow
Posted 2014-03-20 08:15:08 and read 34988 times.

Map showing day/night in the world just to give an idea of how long until the search can begin again:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-20 08:17:54 and read 34765 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 156):
The unclassified version is from Digital Globe, we will never know what authorities are using. Keep in mind standard imaging satellites are useless if there is cloud, rain or haze. Even on a clear day ocean waves combined with glare from sun light makes identifying objects on ocean surface makes more difficult.

So perhaps the "objects" were first spotted with some top secret all-seeing defense satellite and then they went through Digital Globe's archives to find some corresponding non-classified type images to show to the public?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-20 08:20:34 and read 34351 times.

Quoting COOEE (Reply 134):
What was the huge altitude gain to 45,000ft? - was that to put out a fire out?

Anyone correct me of I'm wrong, but I know of no procedure which directs a pilot to climb and try and put a fire out at a higher altitude with less oxygen. That sounds asinine IMO

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 140):

P8-Is have mid-air refueling capability, it is not clear on P8-As. It appears some earlier builds may not have this capability.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 150):

P-8A do have air to air refueling capability.

They have the capability but they aren't able to aerial refuel yet and won't be able to for a couple or few more years

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-20 08:21:12 and read 34275 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 159):

HMS Echo, a Royal Navy survey ship is being sent to the area where the objects were spotted.

I heard that somewhere before.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Tod
Posted 2014-03-20 08:21:51 and read 34210 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 150):
24 m seems to be too big for anything inside the fuselage except maybe a floor panel (which are also honeycomb panels)?

777 floor panels are never close to being that long.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-20 08:23:33 and read 34041 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 159):
HMS Echo, a Royal Navy survey ship is being sent to the area where the objects were spotted.

She specialises in hydrographic and oceanographic data gathering to help produce ocean navigation charts.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26665580

Echo? I was told Enterprise was going to be sent.

Oh well, either way, good news. If there is anything down there, Echo should find it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: OldAeroGuy
Posted 2014-03-20 08:25:21 and read 33774 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 150):
True, the real question is whether the 777 horizontal stabilizer in question have a tail tank.

Horizontal tail fuel tanks are not an option on the 777. No 777 is equipped with them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: ciaran
Posted 2014-03-20 08:27:14 and read 33653 times.

As it happened,

What is also interesting is the amount of political maneuvering associated with this tragedy, Relations between Malaysia
and China, the Tea party people are having a field day and always worth a good laugh, and Israel is battening down the
hatches in Armageddon. As of this morning word come via the BBC that resources been vectored to a particular area in
the Indian Ocean, coinciding with the last ping received at 08:11 am Sat Malaysian time, and we where lead to believe that
the US (the all seeing eye) was behind the vectoring, then Tony Abbott made his statement to the
Parliament about the investigation and as the fact that a prime minister was going on air gave this
particular news credence, a lot of people took the story up as "Well this must be it", (as the conservative government
here in Australia is usually shutting the ADF up) particularly in relation to boat refugees. Why was there not a member of
the Maritime agency to state their mission objectives in relation to the latest findings. As what happened they landed this
evening with the news that visibility was very poor in target area and in the science where the mark I eye ball rules, we
are to be patient and have another go tomorrow weather permitting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tockeyhockey
Posted 2014-03-20 08:28:56 and read 33463 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 162):
Anyone correct me of I'm wrong, but I know of no procedure which directs a pilot to climb and try and put a fire out at a higher altitude with less oxygen. That sounds asinine IMO

it might be, but it's been floated here on airliners forums several times. in fact, there was an epic thread a while back where i posed the exact question and it went off into a long discussion about firefighting in a flight situation.

maybe the pilots read the thread!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2014-03-20 08:36:12 and read 32607 times.

24m would be a large container. I initially thought it could be an abandoned sailboat that had capsized as well. A few years ago a young woman sailing solo in that area was evacuated by the Australians when her mast broke. But her boat was closer to 13m long.

Until someone on site puts eyes on this debris I'm still not ready to get too optimistic. The worlds oceans are full of floating debris. Some of it quite large.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 08:37:49 and read 32545 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 156):
The unclassified version is from Digital Globe, we will never know what authorities are using. Keep in mind standard imaging satellites are useless if there is cloud, rain or haze. Even on a clear day ocean waves combined with glare from sun light makes identifying objects on ocean surface makes more difficult.

It might be that there are no other satellite images of these particular potential objects.

I would assume that at least the US satellite imaging agencies are conducting their own search, but they will probably come public only if they find highly conclusive evidence.

Unfortunately, it seems that the 24 meter object is too big to be from a 777, but I fully understand they have to check it anyway.

[Edited 2014-03-20 08:38:43]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: qf002
Posted 2014-03-20 08:42:02 and read 31877 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 157):
It is highly improbable a fire erupted, incapacitated everyone on board, selectively killed the Transponder and ACARS, re-programmed the FMC to send the plane on a different course and then self extinguished to allow the aircraft to fly on for 7 hours.

For starters, there is no evidence at this stage to suggest that the transponder was selectively disabled. We know that some equipment was still functioning, but we don't yet know how if/how many other systems were impacted by whatever happened in the 40 minutes after the flight departed from KUL.

I think the fire scenario is plausible. A blaze starts somewhere in an equipment bay or major wiring thoroughfare, destroys a whole pile of systems but then either burns out or is distinguished by the crew. The crew then regain control and attempt contact to seek assistance but find that nothing is working, so start a return to KUL with the hope that ATC will get the message and clear the way for them.

A second major failure then kicks in, as part of a chain reaction caused by the earlier fire (perhaps relating to emergency oxygen systems) which leaves everybody on the aircraft incapacitated. Enough systems continue to work for the aircraft to then continue on the southern path until it runs out of fuel and crashes.

I'm not saying that's necessarily what I think happened, but I think it's easily as likely than many of the theories that have been tossed around here over the last two weeks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-20 08:43:21 and read 31901 times.

Quoting ciaran (Reply 167):
and Israel is battening down the
hatches in Armageddon.

I don't know why people gave Israel such a hard time or made so much out of it. There was a lot of speculation and I'm sure a somewhat credible rumor went around and Israel acted... doesn't mean that info was 100% accurate or they were jumping the gun, they were probably just being safe

But I agree, seeing some people freak out because Iranians were aboard was kind of humorous. They aren't friendly to the US or Israel but they're not just dicks to everyone else

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 168):
it might be, but it's been floated here on airliners forums several times.

Lots of bad ideas were

Quoting tockeyhockey (Reply 168):

maybe the pilots read the thread!

Well I'm new to the 737 (and not Delta, sadly) so I could be wrong about airliners in general, but there is no mention of climbing to put out a fire in our checklists and I've never heard anyone teaching me ever suggest that. If anything, you want to get down and land asap. Now again, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure climbing to put out the fire is the opposite any good pilot would do

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-20 08:48:06 and read 31245 times.

I should remind you all that there are commercial radar imaging satellites that can see in the dark and through cloud, though I don't know off the top of my head if DigitalGlobe has any.

There is no reason not to believe that those types resources are being used as well.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: keegd76
Posted 2014-03-20 08:49:24 and read 31257 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 165):
Echo? I was told Enterprise was going to be sent.

Oh well, either way, good news. If there is anything down there, Echo should find it.

Accordingly to the RN website Enterprise is just completing trails and training after a 5-month refit which began in September 2013.

Due to go back into service later this year.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-20 08:50:33 and read 31065 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 170):
I would assume that at least the US satellite imaging agencies are conducting their own search, but they will probably come public only if they find highly conclusive evidence.

Or not come public at all, just pass the info quietly on to Australia as the lead SAR nation for the pertinent area for search? What I'm wondering is if the info the Australians are going on isn't very much better than what we're seeing in these two satellite images (which looks pretty unimpressive to me).

[Edited 2014-03-20 08:51:14]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Pihero
Posted 2014-03-20 08:51:38 and read 31282 times.

Reasonability check :

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 152):
Way-point Tracks
• A series of way-points reported that match the primary radar tracks in/near Malacca Strait.
• These way-points line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
• While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just coincidentally along the path.
• A 777 can be programed to follow a series of way-point automatically - this is normal operating procedure and a 777 pilot would need no extra practice/training to do it. (Relevant to pilot flight simulator ownership)

There were quite a few articles on this subject, one of the main bases for the *dastardly mass murdering crew* being in control, and then programming and following an alternative routre composed of... just three waypoints   , namely VAMPI, GIVAL and IGREX.

- First we have to remember that the Thai Air Force stressed on the fact that the flight never was over Thailand, which means that MH370 came from further south and would have been in sight of Kuala Lumpur, Butterworth... etc... then took a Northwesterly route to VAMPI, forcing a succession of 90°+ turns on waypoints that do not belong to the same airway . (That shoots down the idea that the clever murdering crew joined an airway to hide themselves better ).

- Second, an airplane generally doesn't fly over waypoints - except in terminal areas for SIDs and STARs, for obvious reasons of separation and safety.
So : in actual terms, that airplane would have made a very smooth S, missing VAMPI and GIVAL by a minimum of 5 nm as the radius of its turn, assuming a TAS of 480 kt would be in the vicinity of 10 nm, without wind.
That's hardly what I call "using entered waypoints".

- Third : the GIVAL- IGREX track leads to Port Blair on airway P628.

Wouldn't it have been more reasonable to just turn southwest over Indonesia, past Medan and then South, to be lost in the roaring forties of the Indian Ocean ?

What is really frustrating in this accident is that we have absolutely no factual evidence provided :
- Why not publish a photocopy of the ACARS messages to RR ? Do they really include a navigation ( i.e *next positions*) group ? If so, how come it took more than a week for the investigators to realise the presence of that group in the message?

- Why not follow on the radar blips showing the airplane at those waypoints... Can't the military derive a ground speed, therefore a TAS and a Mach number ?

- How did some of the investigators derive the probable last aircraft position?.. Why not publish all the loci based on the Sat pings... considering a constant speed (which one ?), one could build a set of equal vectors intersecting these arcs at the same distance. Why the secrecy ?

No wonder the conspiracists are having a field day !
As for me, I'd certainly stop at accusing a dead pilot of one of the greatest crimes we'd seen in modern times.
That's the minimum respect we need to show, to him, his family, his religion and his country.
Apparently I am in the minority in this regard.
How sad...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-20 08:53:20 and read 31366 times.

The US would never publish satellite data or images from Pine Gap or any other top secret sight, watered down or not. It's not going to happen. Like others have said, they would just cross reference with DigiGlobe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: zeke
Posted 2014-03-20 08:53:22 and read 31236 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 162):
Anyone correct me of I'm wrong, but I know of no procedure which directs a pilot to climb and try and put a fire out at a higher altitude with less oxygen. That sounds asinine IMO

I would assume the climb observed on the radar was an issue with that equipment at the limit of its range, it is not uncommon with primary radar.

In term of increasing altitude, there is procedures for example on the 747 freighter which has Main Deck Cargo Fire ARM & DEPRESS feature to raise the cabin altitude to FL250 while the aircraft climbs/descends to FL250 with an aim to starve a fire.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: garpd
Posted 2014-03-20 08:54:13 and read 30960 times.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 174):
Accordingly to the RN website Enterprise is just completing trails and training after a 5-month refit which began in September 2013.

Due to go back into service later this year.

Guess my friend got his wires crossed!

Quoting qf002 (Reply 171):

Too many twists and turns.
Just not likely, IMHO.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2014-03-20 08:57:08 and read 30796 times.

45' high-cube is the biggest container you will see on a ocean vessel. APL tried to push 53' containers into the ocean cargo market, but failed.

So, a 13.66 meter container is your realistic max.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-20 08:58:39 and read 30700 times.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 169):
24m would be a large container.

It would also be a large piece of a 777 to remain intact and floating this long. Both seem equally likely/unlikely just judging from the pictures. However, I'm quite sure there are a lot more floating containers around the Indian Ocean than there are pieces of 777 debris (since containers fall off ships - and container ships sink - with surprising frequency), so the odds are actually way in favor of it being a container - assuming these are the only pics the Australians have to go on. I agree with those that say they probably have higher resolution images, but the fact is they have not been able to identify this debris as even being from an airplane without seeing it in person, so it seems like the images they have probably aren't *that* much better.

I fear this is going to be another case like when those satellite images came out of China a few days after the plane's disappearance. Hopefully it won't be.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 180):
So, a 13.66 meter container is your realistic max.

I don't really buy that this object is 24 meters long. If it's part of the plane, what part is that? If it's not part of the plane, what part of *anything* could it be?

I think it's either a smaller part of the plane, or a container, the length of which has been overestimated. (Water splash that looks like part of the structure, for example, on a satellite image.)

[Edited 2014-03-20 09:03:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: SimonDanger
Posted 2014-03-20 08:58:42 and read 30557 times.

Quoting ciaran (Reply 167):
What is also interesting is the amount of political maneuvering associated with this tragedy, Relations between Malaysia
and China, the Tea party people are having a field day and always worth a good laugh, and Israel is battening down the
hatches in Armageddon.


As I said several days ago, the sub-text of the geo-politics of the region I believe are likely to be a significant component of how this event is eventually recorded. Until then there's the Tea Party ... never let a disaster get in the way of a good swipe at the U.S.A.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: cougar15
Posted 2014-03-20 08:59:11 and read 30607 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 161):
So perhaps the "objects" were first spotted with some top secret all-seeing defense satellite and then they went through Digital Globe's archives to find some corresponding non-classified type images to show to the public

Just guessing, but I don´t expect the Aussie PM is gonna make a monkey of himself! although is wording was VERY cautious, I do feel they have a certain Level of confidence, before going public! Sure hope they are right for all the poor soules involved! This one needs closure in one form or another

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: qf002
Posted 2014-03-20 09:03:01 and read 30149 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 175):
Or not come public at all, just pass the info quietly on to Australia as the lead SAR nation for the pertinent area for search?

It's likely, given the strength of the relationship, that Australia will have direct access to whatever resources the US can use to monitor this part of the world anyway (for example, Pine Gap is a joint facility).

Quoting garpd (Reply 179):
Too many twists and turns.

No more than your average Mayday/Air Crash Investigations episode. There is one root cause (in this case the fire), which leads to a catastrophic issue. Everything else is then explained by the crew's response.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-20 09:04:27 and read 30092 times.

Of course this could all just be a diversion to lull any hijackers holding the plane into complacency. (There, that's my first crazy wild speculation on this thread and the only one you're going to see. )

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-20 09:16:51 and read 28683 times.

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 183):
I don´t expect the Aussie PM is gonna make a monkey of himself!

If you ask Australians, they'll say it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-20 09:18:42 and read 28492 times.

But another big unknown is how well a 777 can withstand the impact against the water vs say a 767 or A330. Reason I say that is because this has not happened to a 777 before, whereas we have had a 767 (Egyptair 990) and an A330 (Air France 447) go down into the water.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: PanAm1971
Posted 2014-03-20 09:21:50 and read 28336 times.

The public pics released are probably not the highest res pics the investigators have.

From BBC News, "16:08: Leisha Chi, BBC News, Kuala Lumpur tweets: No #MH370 family members who attended a closed door briefing with government in Cyberjaya came to speak to press and exited through back passages."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-20 09:23:20 and read 27980 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 187):
whereas we have had a 767 (Egyptair 990) and an A330 (Air France 447) go down into the water.

It would depend how it impacted the water. The two accidents you mention are pretty different, so is the US A319 that went into the Hudson. Who knows if MH370 tried a ditch, crashed at an almost level attitude, or plummeted into the ocean nose first


Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 188):
No #MH370 family members who attended a closed door briefing with government in Cyberjaya came to speak to press and exited through back passages."

Good, I hate when the media hounds people in grief. I'm sure the family members know something we don't but give them space and be patient, media

[Edited 2014-03-20 11:21:12 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: lucaspithan
Posted 2014-03-20 09:28:09 and read 27532 times.

Its hard to believe the MH370 would be there (where the government of Australia reported) without being noticed by any military radar. Even between Brazil and Africa (AF447) there only a "small" part of the ocean unmonitored, between the satellite borders by Brazil and Senegal.

If the plane is there he travelled near a lot of countries like Thailand and Indonesia and nobody saw...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 09:28:26 and read 27447 times.

If pilot suicide is likely to be cause of the crash, how did one pilot could have managed to keep other pilot out of the cockpit for so long?

If pilot on suicide mission would have depressurized cabin (using extra O2 only for himself) then can't imagine it would have so horrific for all those pax, crew and other pilot depriving of oxygen.

Also if this was captain who did it (I am just putting some theory) did he deliberately waited for this opportunity as relatively young and inexperienced F/O would have been much easy to manage compared to experienced F/O? this means he could have made his mind when he got to know he is flying with this particular F/O? As I am assuming they don't know their partners and crew until they meet them 3-4 hr prior to flight? before briefing?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DrivesForShow
Posted 2014-03-20 09:29:56 and read 27403 times.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 180):
45' high-cube is the biggest container you will see on a ocean vessel. APL tried to push 53' containers into the ocean cargo market, but failed.

So, a 13.66 meter container is your realistic max.

Not to be math guy but a 45' cube would have a 77.942' (23.76 m) longest diagonal (the one running through the open space in the middle). Feel free to check the math but I plugged the formula below into WolframAlpha - it takes pythagorean theorem of the height and the diagonal of a face.

sqrt((45*sqrt(2))^2+45^2)

Just leaves open the possibility that the images are a container if the scales are in fact correct.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 09:31:17 and read 27292 times.

Quoting lucaspithan (Reply 191):

I guess Malaysian officials have mentioned already that they have got confidential Radar data provided by some country and they want to keep data and name of the country secret being highly confidential. This means Malaysian officials when chalked this south corridor had some idea where plane would have flown.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: asetiadi
Posted 2014-03-20 09:33:43 and read 27006 times.

I think FAA and Boeing and Airbus should work together to build a beacon locator on each plane that can be tracked anytime whether the plane is crash or not. This way we can find the plane very fast and efficient. We are living in 21st century, I am sure this type of equipment that can track and show the location of the plane doesn't require a sharp brain to build one.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 09:34:12 and read 26790 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 193):

It's "high cube", not a 45' cube. As in "high cubic feet".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container#Specifications

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-20 09:34:21 and read 26782 times.

Quoting DrivesForShow (Reply 193):
Not to be math guy but a 45' cube would have a 77.942' (23.76 m) longest diagonal (the one running through the open space in the middle). Feel free to check the math but I plugged the formula below into WolframAlpha - it takes pythagorean theorem of the height and the diagonal of a face.

sqrt((45*sqrt(2))^2+45^2)

Just leaves open the possibility that the images are a container if the scales are in fact correct.

They are not actually 45 ft cubes - that is just the name given to them. They are approx 8 ft x 8.5 ft. x 45 ft. The vast majority of containers are 20 and 40 ft long.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 65mustang
Posted 2014-03-20 09:36:21 and read 26667 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 157):
It is highly improbable a fire erupted, incapacitated everyone on board,

Only the pilots locked in the cockpit with a reinforced door have to be incapacitated. The state of the people in the cabin would be irrelevant with regards to the fate of the plane.

Would a depressurized aircraft be lighter than a pressurized one and have an increased range? If there was a breach in the fuselage, this would decrease the range wouldn't it?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 09:38:38 and read 26453 times.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 195):

Absolutely makes sense, should able to reach aircraft even if it's sitting 15000feet below ocean.

Does Dreamliner have that kind of GPS system?

Cheers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 09:38:53 and read 26446 times.

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 198):
Only the pilots locked in the cockpit with a reinforced door have to be incapacitated. The state of the people in the cabin would be irrelevant with regards to the fate of the plane.

IIRC, there is a plan for incapacitated pilots. Senior F/A's would be able to gain entry, I believe.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2014-03-20 09:41:15 and read 26228 times.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 155):
Looks like a freight container to me as well . . . Furthermore, they do float

Only the refrigerated ones float. They're sealed and tend to bob around just under the surface. The refrigerated containers are usually of the smaller verity.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: laddb
Posted 2014-03-20 09:41:49 and read 26844 times.

I finally found an image that shows the other satellite pings. Sorry if this was posted before.

http://i.imgur.com/zNgnicG.png?1

Nevermind - those points are assumed based on NTSB tracks. Still a good map.

[Edited 2014-03-20 09:43:57]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2014-03-20 09:42:18 and read 26552 times.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 155):
Furthermore, they do float.

As an example . . . an container floated across the Pacific from Fukushima to the US west coast containing a Harley Davidson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...-canadian-island-article-1.1071147

bt

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-20 09:44:39 and read 26122 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 202):
I finally found an image that shows the other satellite pings. Sorry if this was posted before

It was posted before, but only once (that I know of). The other satellite pings are educated guesses by the author, not the real ones.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-20 09:46:20 and read 25916 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 200):
Senior F/A's would be able to gain entry, I believe.

The pilot could deny access. Only if they are truly incapacitated could the FA get in.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: jetfuel
Posted 2014-03-20 09:46:31 and read 26041 times.

The weather in the area is very poor. Please be patient if it takes an extended time. Crews were not even able to see the ocean for much of today

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-20 09:48:22 and read 25939 times.

Quoting laddb (Reply 202):
I finally found an image that shows the other satellite pings. Sorry if this was posted before.

This really excited me - but it is not what you think it is.

For "pings"
- the solid red is THE published ones.
- the other 'pings' are estimates based the NTSB track.

Basically - if you believe the NTSB predicted tracks (and extrapolations of them), then the pings would have to be there.

So - this is not published data - it is somebody's analysis.

Bob

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 09:49:00 and read 25830 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 205):
The pilot could deny access. Only if they are truly incapacitated could the FA get in.

Several theories have both pilots incapacitated.

Plus, if the F/A is denied entry, and no one ever communicates, the F/A will know something is very wrong.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-20 09:49:10 and read 25765 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 199):
Absolutely makes sense, should able to reach aircraft even if it's sitting 15000feet below ocean.

Does Dreamliner have that kind of GPS system?

GPS signals do not propagate through water.

Google communications with submarines and you'll get some idea of the difficulty (and cost) of communicating with something that's submerged.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: tiong
Posted 2014-03-20 09:50:50 and read 25905 times.

Diego Garcia again...

No commercial flight on the 8th of March and the next 3 days... Pure coincidence???? Laser weapon testing on the 8th...MH 370 also missing on this date

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Diego-Garcia-Passenger-Terminal/242934902443795

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-20 09:58:01 and read 24963 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 210):

No commercial flight on the 8th of March and the next 3 days... Pure coincidence???? Laser weapon testing on the 8th...MH 370 also missing on this date

Yeah I'm sure the US military used a laser all the way from Diego Garcia to shoot the transponder and ACARS, then somehow made the plane turn the way it did  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LH526
Posted 2014-03-20 09:59:02 and read 24858 times.

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 198):
Only the pilots locked in the cockpit with a reinforced door have to be incapacitated. The state of the people in the cabin would be irrelevant with regards to the fate of the plane.

The B777 has axes and portable Oxygen masks on-board, given someone noticed and the cockpit acted suspiciously, these items could come in quite handy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: marktci
Posted 2014-03-20 09:59:44 and read 24827 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 203):
As an example . . . an container floated across the Pacific from Fukushima to the US west coast containing a Harley Davidson.

Small nit to pick, "Canadian Islands" are not part of the US West Coast.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-20 10:01:44 and read 24611 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 210):
No commercial flight on the 8th of March and the next 3 days... Pure coincidence???? Laser weapon testing on the 8th...MH 370 also missing on this date

Yes, it's coincidence. It's not exactly a destination.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Mitico12
Posted 2014-03-20 10:04:26 and read 24313 times.

As said before, my theory is that this is all a diversion concocted by the international community to buy time to resolve the real issue which may be a plane that is in Taliban controlled areas of Pakistan.

Also, this "cover story" about possible wreckage can make the actual perpetrators think that the "good guys" are sniffing down the wrong path and that their plan is working. It's a cat and mouse game.

I don't see two large pieces of plane floating for almost two weeks without being noticed or sinking altogether.

Something doesn't add up...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: studedave
Posted 2014-03-20 10:08:12 and read 23896 times.

Quoting tiong (Reply 210):
No commercial flight on the 8th of March and the next 3 days... Pure coincidence????

It's not an airport- it's an air base!!! But wow- three whole days?
When I was there we were lucky to see one flight a week...





StudeDave

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: akberc
Posted 2014-03-20 10:15:16 and read 23055 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 215):
As said before, my theory is that this is all a diversion concocted by the international community to buy time to resolve the real issue which may be a plane that is in Taliban controlled areas of Pakistan.

The tribal areas where Taliban dominate (not controlled in the strict sense) are under surveillance by US and Pakistani authorities at all times. In the past few months, almost every Taliban terrorist attack on civilians has been met with a swift and punishing attack by Pakistani aircraft on exact targets, most often the right culprits.

That shows the level of intelligence that the ISI has on the Taliban. The Pakistani military did cleanse the Swat valley of the Taliban in 2009. Not wiping out the Taliban en-masse from their ancestral tribal areas is a political decision, tied to US withdrawal from Afghanistan and time required in a democracy to get the public behind the likely inevitable action.

In short, regardless of what Fox News general says - the plane is not in the mountainous tribal areas of Pakistan.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-20 10:16:42 and read 23040 times.

I'm still convinced the aircraft is in Pakistan, being geared up for phase II. What the satellite saw off Australia was the same stuff the Chinese satellite saw off the Vietnamese coast...a bunch of nothing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2014-03-20 10:18:10 and read 22843 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 215):

As said before, my theory is that this is all a diversion concocted by the international community to buy time to resolve the real issue which may be a plane that is in Taliban controlled areas of Pakistan.

Also, this "cover story" about possible wreckage can make the actual perpetrators think that the "good guys" are sniffing down the wrong path and that their plan is working. It's a cat and mouse game.

I don't see two large pieces of plane floating for almost two weeks without being noticed or sinking altogether.

Something doesn't add up...

I said the same thing to someone at work earlier. This is a distraction as really there is something else going on. I think i have also been caught up in the conspiracies and intrigue the last fortnight- where can massive 777 go in a world of so much big bro satellite tech - our imaginations can start to run wild and does show how 9/11 impacted us all and also we've all probably seen too many movies 
I hope for the sake of family and loved ones MH370 be found very soon where they are searching but part of me does feel something still doesn't add up?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-20 10:18:27 and read 22754 times.

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 215):


I don't see two large pieces of plane floating for almost two weeks without being noticed or sinking altogether.

do you realize how big the oceans are? They're absolutely massive. That area of the ocean isn't exactly very popular either...what actual evidence do you have for the plane being in Pakistan besides a bunch of assumptions? You don't get very far with assumptions, I can make a few assumptions and come up with something completely different with just a little evidence

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-20 10:21:45 and read 22422 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 192):
If pilot suicide is likely to be cause of the crash, how did one pilot could have managed to keep other pilot out of the cockpit for so long?

Why do you assume the other pilot was ever out of the cockpit?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: akberc
Posted 2014-03-20 10:21:47 and read 22522 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 219):

I'm still convinced the aircraft is in Pakistan, being geared up for phase II.

Could you please postulate that into a viable theory of how the plane got there without Pakistani military and government co-operation?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: captainstefan
Posted 2014-03-20 10:24:32 and read 22127 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 190):
be patient, media

Straight up not gonna happen, especially with such a high profile story.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 181):
It would also be a large piece of a 777 to remain intact and floating this long.

So I know we've already determined that the stabilizers are none by themselves 24m long - but say we did find one of them floating as part of this debris. How long do you think, all else constant, it would take for the seawater to breach the composite structure and waterlog it? i.e. How long would the AF447 vertical stab have floated if not recovered when it was?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 189):
US A319

Not to nitpick, but....

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-20 10:25:25 and read 22041 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 221):

Is it normal scenario that both pilots decide to commit suicide same time or do something freakish ? and if one wanted to commit it then is it not commonsense to lock other pilot out of sight in order to go ahead as per his plan?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-20 10:26:43 and read 21890 times.

There's very little sea or air traffic over this stretch of the Southern Ocean. Look at how wide it is. There's a reason it's said (although I don't know how geographically true it is) that Perth, WA is the most isolated large city in the entire world. There's nothing to its west for thousands upon thousands of miles but water. Barely even any islands. It's plausible to me that debris could float, especially debris with air trapped in it, for weeks before it's spotted.

The oceans are gigantic. There are people who row across them for sport and even in the smaller seas it might take them many months, and they may not see another ship at all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2014-03-20 10:27:14 and read 21994 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 219):
where can massive 777 go in a world of so much big bro satellite tech

Same place as this one?

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...ge=&thumbnails=&engine_version=6.0

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: EI747SYDNEY
Posted 2014-03-20 10:27:20 and read 22154 times.

This is one of the epic Airliners threads!

I wonder how many parts it will make up in the end

Robbie

     

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: RJAF
Posted 2014-03-20 10:27:31 and read 22502 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 218):
I'm still convinced the aircraft is in Pakistan, being geared up for phase II

Pakistan armed forces are quite well equipped and experienced - considering their volatile region. I don't believe a 777 would have slipped through!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-20 10:27:42 and read 22476 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 224):
Is it normal scenario that both pilots decide to commit suicide same time or do something freakish ?

No, "freakish" is not "normal."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: cpw
Posted 2014-03-20 10:28:24 and read 22500 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 220):
do you realize how big the oceans are? They're absolutely massive. That area of the ocean isn't exactly very popular either

This is a really important statement. As I look at a globe, it seems like there would be very little reason for anyone to be out in that area. A straight line between South Africa and Perth would be north of the search zone. Even if a ship came within a mile of the wreckage, if it's half submerged, there would be a slim-to-none chance of the crews seeing it, unless they were specifically looking for it.

My hope is that meteorological and ocean current data will be complete enough to help the search crews model the last 2 weeks' drift patterns. Once the position of some of the wreckage is identified, it shouldn't be a stretch to narrow the search zone even more based on the estimated drift of objects based on weight, profile, etc. Not easy, mind you, but something that is mostly mathematical in nature.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-20 10:38:02 and read 21307 times.

the worry is thar the plane was dealt with somewhere else and then was ferried shiped south and dump it there to look like it was a crash, this why is taking so long, there are 2 things that will come out of this, a conspiracy theory or incompetence from super powers nations who claim they know everything and have powerful satelites which proved they aren't that powerful after 13 days

[Edited 2014-03-20 10:50:03]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: licnyc
Posted 2014-03-20 10:39:38 and read 21477 times.

Long-time lurker for 10 years. I decided today to finally join the community! My first post...

Someone asked yesterday, in Part 37,
Quote:

Have we heard anything at all from Myanmar?
Have they cooperated in the search mission (notably looking at their own radar data)?
Would it be possible for an airliner the size of a 777 to break in their airspace and go undetected?
Would Myanmar have any interest in "stealing" a 777?

In fact, Myanmar has been cooperative and opened their airspace to Malaysia for a one-week period. The Director General of the Myanmar's Department of Civil Aviation also said they would grant an extension to Malaysia, if requested. But at the time of this article, no such request had been made (i.e., it seems Malysia has no reason to utilize Myanmar's airspace for further search efforts).

[Edited 2014-03-20 10:54:10]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: rc135x
Posted 2014-03-20 10:43:12 and read 21022 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 224):
and if one wanted to commit it then is it not commonsense to lock other pilot out of sight in order to go ahead as per his plan?

No need for either pilot to be locked out of flight deck. Example: Pilot A says he's going to the lavatory and stands up behind pilot B who is now flying the airplane on autopilot. Pilot A removes a knife or piano wire from his flight bag and slits the throat of pilot B all without a struggle because pilot B had no concern that this was even a possibility. Pilot A returns to his seat and commandeers the airplane. No one in main cabin would be any wiser.

I do not suggest that this is what happened, only an attempt to dispel the myth that a pilot hijacking his own plane (for whatever reason) requires the other pilot to physically leave the flight deck.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-20 10:44:31 and read 20819 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 231):

the worry id the plane was dealt with somewhere else and then was ferried shiped south and damp it to look like it was a crash, this why is taking so long, there are 2 things that will come out of this, a consiracy theory or incompetence even from super powers nations who claim they know everything and hav powerful satellites which proved they aren't after 13 days

again, your theory uses a bunch of random assumptions and honestly, if this is the debris I think they found it very quickly. Again look at the oceans... They are absolutely massive. You're looking for pieces of junk inwater the size of continents

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-20 10:53:43 and read 19941 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 234):
again, your theory uses a bunch of random assumptions and honestly, if this is the debris I think they found it very quickly. Again look at the oceans... They are absolutely massive. You're looking for pieces of junk inwater the size of continents

what I worry about is that someone or an entity will get away with this and we never know if it can be reproduced down the line again

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: skopsko
Posted 2014-03-20 11:01:09 and read 19365 times.

I doubt that is MH370 there in the South Indian Ocean. It just doesn't make sense they would travel there. They could have committed suicide long before. I think the airplane headed somewhere north.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Centre
Posted 2014-03-20 11:02:58 and read 19067 times.

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 227):
This is one of the epic Airliners threads!

I wonder how many parts it will make up in the end

Infinity: As long as speculation is the only constant fact we have on the ground.

People love mysteries...And mysteries open the door for speculation...Add to that the love of "I'm right and you are wrong" mantra.
I just feel sorry for the families of those involved, specially the pilots families for what they have to endure in the process.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-20 11:07:38 and read 18608 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 231):
the worry id the plane was dealt with somewhere else and then was ferried shiped south and damp it to look like it was a crash, this why is taking so long, there are 2 things that will come out of this, a consiracy theory or incompetence even from super powers nations who claim they know everything and hav powerful satellites which proved they aren't after 13 days

If this happened, it'd be many, many more days until we saw staged wreckage appear. Ships are not very fast, even if said aircraft was chopped up on the 8th and loaded onto a ship on the 9th. Plus, that's a lot of heavy debris.

I have no idea what the objects spotted in the Southern Ocean are. The pictures seem indistinct. It could be anything, but it's also worth checking out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: 11Bravo
Posted 2014-03-20 11:08:21 and read 18506 times.

It is astonishing to me that we continue to hear people engaging in wild conspiracy theories without one single bit of evidence. I think the standards of analytical and critical thinking in todays society is really discouraging. Too many movies, badly researched action novels, and fantasy comic books have rotted people's brains.

The US Government and its magic satellites would have found MH370 by now, so..... they must not be telling us everything and the aircraft must be in Pakistan after being hijacked by Bigfoot and all those guys who killed JFK.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-20 11:09:31 and read 18568 times.

If the aircraft did in fact impact the water in that approximate area, I wonder for how long the ones lucky enough to climb out of the fuselage and cling to floating debris lived for...the must have died of dehydration 4-5 days ago.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2014-03-20 11:09:36 and read 18535 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 234):
again, your theory uses a bunch of random assumptions and honestly, if this is the debris I think they found it very quickly. Again look at the oceans... They are absolutely massive. You're looking for pieces of junk inwater the size of continents

As you mention up thread, these aren't exactly highly traveled waters. That extremely large part of the Indian Ocean can see very little maritime traffic. IIRC a few years ago it took several days for a fishing vessel to arrive at a derelict sailboat in that part of the world even when they knew exactly where it was.

I'm sure they're getting some computer algorithm help with photo interpretation but it's still a labor intensive job taking a lot of time.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: abba
Posted 2014-03-20 11:10:13 and read 18357 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 235):
what I worry about is that someone or an entity will get away with this and we never know if it can be reproduced down the line again

As background checks are being carried out - as time goes by - the likelihood of a criminal act diminishes significantly.

1 If the pilots or other on board were part of some extremist political or religious group it will be known by now. They would have joined certain parties or they would have been frequenting certain places. People does not become fanatics overnight. It takes a certain amount of ideological training to become a true fanatic.

2 If the pilots - or other on board - were in dire problems such as having debt they could not pay or some secretes that could be used to pressure them - it will also most likely be known by now.

3 If the pilots were suicidal - in a way that it will make sense for the person concerned to have several hundred people to go with him (her) - it will also have been known by now. People with such levels of anger would have been talking about their frustrations until there were no one left to listen to them. A suicide that not only killed the person him/herself but a full load of pax would have been the last statement in a "long sermon". This will also have been known by now.

[Edited 2014-03-20 11:13:29]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-20 11:11:01 and read 18396 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 240):

i think it's likely, if this is the aircraft, they either died on impact or were dead long before hand.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-20 11:17:51 and read 17749 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 235):

what I worry about is that someone or an entity will get away with this and we never know if it can be reproduced down the line again

Everyone shares that concern but we aren't formulating theories with 0 evidence to back it up. China having it, Iran having it, the US shooting it down, Pakistan having it, UFOs taking it, etc have zero evidence backing it up so why even stand behind a crazy theory?

Formulate your conclusion based off evidence, don't just come up with something random and pick out evidence that fits it, make even more assumptions to back it up, and use absence of evidence as evidence for whatever assumption you have. That's how wild conspiracy theories are born

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-20 11:20:16 and read 17466 times.

If it's off Austrailia then we are looking at fuselage breach/hypoxia or isolated fire as the most likely cause. Something which has been dismissed far too easily given the pilot's sterling record.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Stretch
Posted 2014-03-20 11:21:06 and read 17529 times.

Worth putting this up here again to show shipping traffic versus spotted debris.

http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/e...1en/img/map_strategic_passages.png

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-20 11:22:46 and read 17334 times.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 245):
If it's off Austrailia then we are looking at fuselage breach/hypoxia or isolated fire as the most likely cause. Something which has been dismissed far too easily given the pilot's sterling record.

Given the flight path, I can't understand how anyone can think it is hypoxia or fire.

The flight path we have been given would have to be completely incorrect.

With hypoxia or fire, we would expect the plane to take a heading and stay there, not maneuver up an down and turn at waypoints.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-20 11:30:35 and read 16485 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 243):

My theory is based simply on I never trusted politicians about what they say

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: COEWR787
Posted 2014-03-20 11:41:59 and read 15722 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 246):
With hypoxia or fire, we would expect the plane to take a heading and stay there, not maneuver up an down and turn at waypoints.

That is not what happened with Swissair 111 when it suffered from an electrical fire. It flew in weird directions before crashing. So why would one expect this case to be any different? There really is no strong basis for discounting the fire theory based on its weird meanderings.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-20 11:42:03 and read 15552 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 246):
Given the flight path, I can't understand how anyone can think it is hypoxia or fire.

The flight path we have been given would have to be completely incorrect.

Gradual hypoxia makes people do irrational things, and planes can be programmed. A feature of hypoxic crashes is that the planes fly off into oblivion until they run out of fuel.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: Boeing717200
Posted 2014-03-20 11:43:40 and read 15557 times.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 246):
With hypoxia or fire, we would expect the plane to take a heading and stay there, not maneuver up an down and turn at waypoints.


Not necessarily. In the fog of hypoxia or severe smoke inhalation, you get pretty desperate. With the mental confusion that can be brought on by both scenarios you try and turn the plane back so you could be found and maybe you think you are tuning your transponder to squawk an emergency frequency but you actually shut off your transponder. Hypoxia and smoke inhalation are particularly nasty.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: KIAS
Posted 2014-03-20 11:44:04 and read 15268 times.

duplicate


moved to next thread

[Edited 2014-03-20 11:47:27]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-20 11:44:54 and read 16373 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue the discussion in part 40 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks and regards,

SA7700


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