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Topic: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-23 23:04:15 and read 74894 times.

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 43 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 44:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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Messages of agreement such as "ME TOO", "I AGREE WITH X", ”YES” OR ”NO” have been found to waste time and space and are therefore to be avoided. A message consisting of only one or two lines of text is probably not worth posting. Do not make posts that contain only a smiley face, check mark, etc. Make sure the content of your post is relevant to the topic.


Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: lazybones
Posted 2014-03-23 23:14:44 and read 75038 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 251 - Thread Part 43):
"The Kiwi's managed to find a wooden pallet, apparently there are some straps connected to this item which points to possible wreckage, consistent with air cargo from what I read ?"

I'm 90% sold this is wreckage from MH370. The next big question is where is the rest of her? If the French are right, they have found a debris field nearly 1000kms north of where we are currently looking. The final salvage could take longer than AF447.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-23 23:33:49 and read 74563 times.

Sounds like there are additional observations reports of possible wreckage coming in now, this time from a Chinese military aircraft. On to the other big development, that the 777 made a rapid descent to 12,000' might indicate a deliberate maneuver performed in reaction a rapid cabin depressurization. I'm beginning to lean towards the idea there was NO foul play, and that this is a tragic incident involving either (1) cargo induced fire...(2) electrical fire...(that were both possibly extinguished possibly after the crew was disabled). This is not the first incident involving the turning off of a transponder with a following catastrophe, I think we are putting too much wait to this and that the transponder being turned off may have very little to do with what actually happened. It may turn out that with a closer look those systems may have been disabled by a fire in the E & E bay and that the pilots may have been overwhelmed with smoke in the cabin and cockpit, as well as loss of many but not all of the electrical systems, combined with being zero dark thirty over the ocean, these guys had everything going against them. Initial maneuver MAY indicate an immediate direct vector towards a divert field on Palau island or maybe a return to the original airport. Or maybe the two Iranian men had shoe bomb type weapons. Again, I believe we should put more credibility towards the observations from the gentleman on the oil rig.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: koruman
Posted 2014-03-23 23:38:29 and read 74381 times.

I have concerns about multiple countries being invited to send their aircraft to the search area, including nations which have previously released satellite pictures and other "evidence" which sent the SAR mission to the wrong ocean after the aircraft disappeared.

If I had something to hide in location A, would I consider dropping freight palettes or wreckage I had had in Location A in the vicinity of Location B?

Any old country currently seems to be free to overfly this area and drop into the ocean whatever "evidence" it cares to.

Last week's Malaysian briefings effectively mean that this area is a crime scene.

And the unrestricted access allowed to military aircraft from half a dozen countries has ensured that it is now a contaminated crime scene, in which no wreckage can be taken at face value.

[Edited 2014-03-23 23:51:50]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-23 23:38:38 and read 74366 times.

Quoting lazybones (Reply 1):
I'm 90% sold this is wreckage from MH370. The next big question is where is the rest of her? If the French are right, they have found a debris field nearly 1000kms north of where we are currently looking. The final salvage could take longer than AF447.

Yes indeed, the volatile and powerful currents and choppy seas have probably swept debris all over the place...so possibly where we finally find confirmed pieces of the aircraft may be hundred of miles away from where the aircraft impacted at sea. I believe we will take diligent work from scientist to come up with an accurate computer model of the currents using historical weather data from day one to possibly "back-track" debris to where they originated weeks ago.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: slinky09
Posted 2014-03-23 23:43:15 and read 74231 times.

Quoting lazybones (Reply 1):
I'm 90% sold this is wreckage from MH370. The next big question is where is the rest of her? If the French are right, they have found a debris field nearly 1000kms north of where we are currently looking. The final salvage could take longer than AF447.

After the number of intense cyclones and tsunamis in the wider region in recent years, there could be all manner of debris littering the oceans. Before any certainty can be reached, it has to be positively ID'd.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: LandSweetLand
Posted 2014-03-24 00:00:53 and read 73741 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
And the unrestricted access allowed to military aircraft from half a dozen countries has ensured that it is now a contaminated crime scene, in which no wreckage can be taken at face value.

Isn't it international airspace though? There's not a lot a country can do to stop them (short of things that could be taken as acts of war).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: namezero111111
Posted 2014-03-24 00:04:48 and read 73631 times.

=

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
I have concerns about multiple countries being invited to send their aircraft to the search area, including nations which have previously released satellite pictures and other "evidence" which sent the SAR mission to the wrong ocean after the aircraft disappeared.

If I had something to hide in location A, would I consider dropping freight palettes or wreckage I had had in Location A in the vicinity of Location B?

Well I suppose it would be possible. However, this seems rather unlikely, if compared to the possibility that someone just misinterpreted image data.
Also, if I had something to hide in location A, why would I first say "Hey, I found something at A!". Or do you mean they actually had something to hide at C?

Either way, I don't think this possibility would have to be considered at this point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: ExpatExp
Posted 2014-03-24 00:49:37 and read 72216 times.

Quoting MarkAK (Reply 219):
I don't know what to make of the fact that INMARSAT does not publish the arcs for other than the last ping.

While it might lead to more speculation and confusion to release that data, I wonder if it might simply be embarassing (and saving face is important in many places over there). For example, perhaps those additional arcs, in conjunction with other available data, indicate that the aircraft entered the airspace of countries who have previously denied it… Or who didn't notice…

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
If I had something to hide in location A, would I consider dropping freight palettes or wreckage I had had in Location A in the vicinity of Location B?

I was thinking the same thing…

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: checksixx
Posted 2014-03-24 01:10:52 and read 71513 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
Last week's Malaysian briefings effectively mean that this area is a crime scene.

And the unrestricted access allowed to military aircraft from half a dozen countries has ensured that it is now a contaminated crime scene, in which no wreckage can be taken at face value.

LoL...and just how are they contaminating the 'crime scene'? In fact the crime scene is the wreckage itself and without these aircraft looking, no one may ever find it. Do you proffer that these aircraft may be dropping false debris into the area? If so...why? I ask because I don't think you're grasping just how far out they're looking...if you did, your theory would be absurd. Now if we were talking a far smaller confined area, the I suppose it would be possible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: pvjin
Posted 2014-03-24 01:26:39 and read 71075 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
And the unrestricted access allowed to military aircraft from half a dozen countries has ensured that it is now a contaminated crime scene, in which no wreckage can be taken at face value.

Ocean currents have surely carried all the floating parts far away from the original crash site already. Besides, most likely all the relevant stuff (wreckage, black boxes) are at bottom of the Indian Ocean already.

Quoting koruman (Reply 3):
If I had something to hide in location A, would I consider dropping freight palettes or wreckage I had had in Location A in the vicinity of Location B?

Nobody is trying to hide anything.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 2008matt
Posted 2014-03-24 01:33:45 and read 71044 times.

Reports in that a Chinese plane has spotted 2 large and several smaller objects spread over a few miles in the search area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26678492

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: monjonman
Posted 2014-03-24 01:40:35 and read 70915 times.

My guess is the smaller square type objects are the foam boxes used to pack the fruit in.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: lazybones
Posted 2014-03-24 02:47:26 and read 70883 times.

Davidzill reply 2.. totally with you on this one.

The Malaysian investgators keep using the line the plane was deliberately taken off course. Yup! by a crew who were trying to trouble shoot a serious problem and return base. Nothing malicious what so ever.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: monjonman
Posted 2014-03-24 03:28:57 and read 70907 times.

The reports are the Aussies on HMAS Success are about to pick up some debri within the next few hours.Lets hope this gives some direction on where to find the black box.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: LXLucien
Posted 2014-03-24 04:02:00 and read 70869 times.

One thing we've already learned from this whole thing:
The oceans are full of garbage!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: damirc
Posted 2014-03-24 04:05:43 and read 70895 times.

Quoting lazybones (Reply 14):

The Malaysian investgators keep using the line the plane was deliberately taken off course. Yup! by a crew who were trying to trouble shoot a serious problem and return base. Nothing malicious what so ever.

And the crew proceeded to enter a few waypoints towards the NW while they diagnose the problem? Does not compute.

In regards to the Langkawi theories. The airport was closed, as it is closed each and every day at that time:

http://aip.dca.gov.my/aip%20pdf/AD/A.../WMKK-Langkawi%20International.pdf

D.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-24 06:48:35 and read 70781 times.

CTV News is saying there have been developments in the search and that the PM will make a statement at 1000EDT/1400Z.

That's 10PM KUL time, pretty late for a statement, must be important...

Canadians can watch live here: http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=6...7&binId=1.810401&playlistPageNum=1

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: LXLucien
Posted 2014-03-24 07:08:30 and read 70777 times.

according to BBC, MH send an sms to the relatives:

Quote:
Malaysian Airlines says it now has to assume "beyond any reasonable doubt" that missing flight MH370 has been lost and there are no survivors.

The announcement came in a text message, seen by the BBC, that was sent to families of those on board.

.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26716572

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: RJA321
Posted 2014-03-24 07:09:14 and read 70738 times.

It seems they've concluded that MH370 ended up in the Indian Ocean.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...e-spots-white-objects-live-updates


RIP to all on board.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-24 09:00:30 and read 70078 times.

So tomorrow we´ll hear some details. There must be more than just the calculations of the Inmarsat technicians to have the PM announce that the plane went down way west of Perth.

[Edited 2014-03-24 09:27:58]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-24 09:06:40 and read 69465 times.

Quoting na (Reply 21):

Apparently, INMARSAT re-calculated all the information they already had, and arrived at a much narrower area where MH370 flew last. They also had to take other aircrafts' signals into account, and do several modelling runs on their computers.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26720772 gives some hints. They may have been aware that one can calculate positions from INMARSAT data, but MH370 forced them to develop the tools to actually do it, and refine them.

Pretty astounding if you ask me - but I await tomorrow's press conference as well.


David

[Edited 2014-03-24 09:10:36]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: loalq
Posted 2014-03-24 09:07:18 and read 69436 times.

By sms? Really? I know it is probaby very hard to try and reach the families of 239 people at once, but I kinda of missed the moment when humanity started thinking that it is ok to tell that a loved has passed via sms...not nice...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Miami
Posted 2014-03-24 09:07:19 and read 69457 times.

The Malaysian Prime Minister concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight 370 crashed into the southern Indian Ocean, with no survivors. The 777 has still not been located.

R.I.P. To all the people on board. My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends. May the victims rest in peace.

-Miami   

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: brilondon
Posted 2014-03-24 09:09:22 and read 70929 times.

I don't know why it took them this long to make that determination. It would seem that that conclusion should have been arrived at sooner if they were disclosing all their information and not trying to misinform and mislead the public. How trustworthy are politicians in todays world?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 09:09:52 and read 71311 times.

Looks the forum's back up.

So apparently Inmarsat has used Doppler info from the "pings" to eliminate the northern arc and better pinpoint the loci on the southern arc. I gather that they compared MH370's signals to signals where they knew where the airplanes went and developed some kind of model or pattern. (I wonder if that explains the stories about a Gulfstream and an A319 or A320 being part of the SAR effort?)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: tugger
Posted 2014-03-24 09:12:38 and read 72839 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 25):
I don't know why it took them this long to make that determination. It would seem that that conclusion should have been arrived at sooner if they were disclosing all their information and not trying to misinform and mislead the public. How trustworthy are politicians in todays world?

According the BBC article linked above, this was cutting edge analysis by Inmarsat that lead to this conclusion. Cramming months worth of work into a couple weeks. Not wasting time or attempts at misleading.

Tugg

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-24 09:13:04 and read 72779 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 23):
By sms? Really? I know it is probaby very hard to try and reach the families of 239 people at once, but I kinda of missed the moment when humanity started thinking that it is ok to tell that a loved has passed via sms...not nice...

Pretty disrespectful if you ask me.... although I think we all knew the chances of a miracle were very remote, the way MH is handling this delicate issue is very unfortunate.

So, regarding the ( now confirmed ) crash, when we all have AF447 as the most challenging recovery effort in history, MH370 is certainly becoming a much more difficult operation, more remote, more deep... Who will be in charge ? And who will pay the bill ? ( MH by itself clearly can't ).


Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-24 09:13:19 and read 72869 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 23):

That's not exactly true. Check this out > http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...e-spots-white-objects-live-updates

I doubt MAS will be that callus.

[Edited 2014-03-24 09:13:52]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-24 09:14:12 and read 72256 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 23):
By sms? Really? I know it is probaby very hard to try and reach the families of 239 people at once, but I kinda of missed the moment when humanity started thinking that it is ok to tell that a loved has passed via sms...not nice...

Cultural differences, perhaps. Perhaps in other regions of the world you're ready to accept such news via SMS. Perhaps MH has already used a stream of SMS to inform the relatives of the newest information, so they can prepare for possible interview requests from journalists. This could have been the leading factor in the decision to use SMS.

After all, MH most probably told the relatives that the missing loved ones are already dead, and that they need to prepare for the worst.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: GiveMeABreak
Posted 2014-03-24 09:17:26 and read 72048 times.

Thanks to the Inmarsat guys for all their hard work. Please note that without their "pings" we would have been all over the place. My heart goes out to all the families and next to kin left behind.
Lets get to the reason of why this had to happen, and my hope is that this will never repeat again! RIP all.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: harry1983
Posted 2014-03-24 09:18:22 and read 71642 times.

Quoting loalq (Reply 23):

They were told face to face at the hotel, and the people who were not present, for whom this was not possible, were informed by text.

A little less personal than a phone call, I agree, but fades in comparison to the insensitivity of the gutter press spewing pictures of the very recently bereaved fainting and crying all over social media in the name of 'news'.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Reffado
Posted 2014-03-24 09:18:28 and read 71711 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 28):
And who will pay the bill ?

Assuming Governments don't and MH doesn't either, I would say Boeing will have a play. They can't just have one of their best selling jetliners go missing for this long and simply ignore it. Although, I believe it's in everyone's interest to find out exactly what happened, and ensure it never happens again.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-24 09:18:36 and read 71680 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 28):

Please see my first reply. I doubt there is any truth in that, I have seen one picture where one of the relative of pax on board was crying and Malaysian acting transport minister was giving him support and trying to console him.

MAS have issued statement that their top management officials have met family face to face to give this news.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: NDiesel
Posted 2014-03-24 09:20:00 and read 71885 times.

Now that the crash is more or less confirmed, what strikes me is how terrifying this must have been for those on board, flying in the wrong direction for hours. Wouldn't it have been daylight too when the crash happened?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 09:22:49 and read 71094 times.

Quoting NDiesel (Reply 35):
what strikes me is how terrifying this must have been for those on board, flying in the wrong direction for hours.

If they were conscious.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2014-03-24 09:22:54 and read 71320 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 34):
Please see my first reply. I doubt there is any truth in that, I have seen one picture where one of the relative of pax on board was crying and Malaysian acting transport minister was giving him support and trying to console him.

MAS have issued statement that their top management officials have met family face to face to give this news.

That's not what all the big news networks ( including BBC which has made a very good job this past weeks ), are showing. The sms messages are a fact. If they have top management officials handling the situation, then they shouldn't send sms of any kind.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-24 09:25:13 and read 71016 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 2):
On to the other big development, that the 777 made a rapid descent to 12,000' might indicate a deliberate maneuver performed in reaction a rapid cabin depressurization. I'm beginning to lean towards the idea there was NO foul play, and that this is a tragic incident involving either (1) cargo induced fire...(2) electrical fire...(that were both possibly extinguished possibly after the crew was disabled). This is not the first incident involving the turning off of a transponder with a following catastrophe, I think we are putting too much wait to this and that the transponder being turned off may have very little to do with what actually happened.

In this scenario, the pilots were probably trying to change to an emergency squawk code when things got out of control.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-24 09:26:54 and read 70430 times.

It is something we all knew but dreaded. Truly one of a kind incident. May the loved ones start healing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 09:27:25 and read 70470 times.

well this means tomorrow we may see first debris, until now all this is an assumption beyond reasonable doubt from various high tech conclusion

People need concrete evidence or you never hear the end of it, this is human nature and behaviour

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-24 09:28:30 and read 70275 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 26):
(I wonder if that explains the stories about a Gulfstream and an A319 or A320 being part of the SAR effort?)

Yeah, that was my thinking exactly. Recreate the Ping pattern from another plane flying in that region as a model. It probably confirmed what we already knew. There was no way that plane could have snuck past all the radars on the northern route and then landed or crashed without anyone noticing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-24 09:29:06 and read 70440 times.

Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 38):
Quoting davidzill (Reply 2):
On to the other big development, that the 777 made a rapid descent to 12,000' might indicate a deliberate maneuver performed in reaction a rapid cabin depressurization. I'm beginning to lean towards the idea there was NO foul play, and that this is a tragic incident involving either (1) cargo induced fire...(2) electrical fire...(that were both possibly extinguished possibly after the crew was disabled). This is not the first incident involving the turning off of a transponder with a following catastrophe, I think we are putting too much wait to this and that the transponder being turned off may have very little to do with what actually happened.

In this scenario, the pilots were probably trying to change to an emergency squawk code when things got out of control.

But how on earth does this jive with the plane continuing to fly for 7hrs, and ending up in the southern Indian Ocean? I am asking this out of pure bewilderment, as opposed to just being obstinate. I just can't imagine the fluke series of events you would have to have transpire to cause A) Loss of all communications, Ab) this event just HAPPENED to occure at ATC zone handover, B) transponder turned off, C) sharp left turn, D) flying over waypoints west of Malaysia, E) descent to 12Kft (if this happened), F) incapaciation of crew and pax, G) but not something deadly to the airframe itself, and H) with the loss of all onboard communications, control and lives/consciousness (said catastrophic event, bear in mind, also not allowing for cellphone calls to be made!), the airplace still flew itself for 7 hrs.

I'm just completely agape at how something like this could happen without any maydays or 7700 squawks or anything.....makes me lean towards a lone wolf terrorist or something.

[Edited 2014-03-24 09:33:01]

[Edited 2014-03-24 09:34:57]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 09:30:21 and read 69946 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 41):
It probably confirmed what we already knew. There was no way that plane could have snuck past all the radars on the northern route and then landed or crashed without anyone noticing.

And maybe the sent "test" aircraft along the northern route as well.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: BA84
Posted 2014-03-24 09:32:56 and read 69897 times.

Quoting NDiesel (Reply 35):
Now that the crash is more or less confirmed, what strikes me is how terrifying this must have been for those on board, flying in the wrong direction for hours. Wouldn't it have been daylight too when the crash happened?

They were incapacitated, or dead, not terrified.
They just went to sleep.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flood
Posted 2014-03-24 09:33:54 and read 70188 times.

Quoting na (Reply 21):
There must be more than just the calculations of the Inmarsat technicians

It's worth noting that, in an interview with CNN, an Inmarsat VP said their conclusion was peer reviewed by the industry and Boeing had contributed.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: cpw
Posted 2014-03-24 09:34:05 and read 70153 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 27):
According the BBC article linked above, this was cutting edge analysis by Inmarsat that lead to this conclusion. Cramming months worth of work into a couple weeks.

  

I think this is going to be one of the takeaways from this whole event. This investigation is dynamic -- people are learning how to analyze limited data to come to a better understanding of where the plane is, and "fill in the blanks." While at times is may seem like the authorities are changing their story or not releasing data (even though that may have happened on occasion - that's somewhat irrelevant at this point), I think much of the dynamic changes to the common operating picture is due to an evolving understanding of what the data are telling us.

This is, for all intents and purposes, a criminal investigation until proven otherwise. It's being conducted by multiple countries, all with varying levels of transparency. If information doesn't need to be released to the media and/or the Internet, whether in the form of full-resolution satellite images, or specific details of the cargo on board, or specific ping plots for all pings, it won't be. The people who need to have the information (i.e. NTSB, and other various investigative agencies around the world), and who have the capability to fully analyze it, likely have all they need. We won't know, because we don't need to know.

Are some of the conspiracy theories plausible, especially considering how sketchy the data were early on? Sure. With the data that has been released by the authorities to date, are they still plausible? Probably not so much.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: EVAAIRBR076
Posted 2014-03-24 09:34:28 and read 69929 times.

Well maybe a bit naive, but let me see the debris first till I believe it is true. Those Malaysians swing too much with their information during the press conferences since day one.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: na
Posted 2014-03-24 09:35:11 and read 70111 times.

Quoting Reffado (Reply 33):
Assuming Governments don't and MH doesn't either, I would say Boeing will have a play. They can't just have one of their best selling jetliners go missing for this long and simply ignore it. Although, I believe it's in everyone's interest to find out exactly what happened, and ensure it never happens again.

That´ll be quite interesting to see who´ll pay in the end for this massive SAR operation, probably the most expensive in history. Malaysia, China and Boeing will likely have to pay for the biggest chunk. Some countries will write of their cost as an exercise in desaster relief and reconnaisance. It´ll depend on the cause how much Boeing will pay. Every 777 operator will be very keen to know wether there´s something wrong with the plane.

[Edited 2014-03-24 09:38:11]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-24 09:35:44 and read 70185 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 42):

If someone wanted to do this as deliberate act why would they declare May Day or squawk 7700 ? So you not buying theory of pilot suicide ?

If you interested have a look at reply 122 from thread number 40.

Cheers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 09:36:15 and read 70326 times.

from conference today, MH CEO said co-pilot was his first flight unsupervised and the captain was a qualified examiner, could it be the captain stepped out while they settle in cruise and something happened, co-pilot panicked that he never thought that his first flight will face emergency, he dialled wrong frequencies and was transmitting in the blind and by the time the captain got back, it was chaotic

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 09:37:11 and read 70012 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 42):
But how on earth does this jive with the plane continuing to fly for 7hrs, and ending up in the southern Indian Ocean?

rcair1 pointed out a week or so ago that we have to deal with what has actually happened (someone had said regarding one of the hijacking theories that it would have been easier if they just stole a freighter; rcair1 pointed out that regardless of what might make sense, what actually has gone missing is a passenger plane). There is some explanation. Hopefully we will find out what it is.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: ORDFan
Posted 2014-03-24 09:38:57 and read 69734 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 17):
And the crew proceeded to enter a few waypoints towards the NW while they diagnose the problem? Does not compute.

Totally agree

If true, I think too much is being made of the descent to 12,000 feet. At the very least: it's too easy/early to completely dismiss the foul play theory. The fact that the plane flew for ~7 hours or so and landed (crashed) in that part of the Indian Ocean means that whatever happened could not have been totally catastrophic to the aircraft. Also, at 12,000 feet, surely lights from the Malay peninsula, and or whatever populated islands they flew over would have been visible. In an absolutely worse case scenario, where the plane was flyable but damaged and/or not "landable", surely such an experienced captain would've attempted to ditch near the coast line of the Malay peninsula or some inhabited land mass where lights were visible.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: PanAmPaul
Posted 2014-03-24 09:41:17 and read 69603 times.

The CEO of Malaysian also issued a video statement which I thought was very well put - far better than the idea of an SMS message.

Quote:
In a video, the airline’s group CEO, Ahmad Jauhari, discussed the lost aircraft.

“It has been an extremely difficult period for the family and friends of passengers and crews,” said Mr. Jauhari. “Each hour that passes without a development prolongs the anguish and despair.”

above from
Malaysian Prime Minister: Flight 370 Ended in Southern Indian Ocean - Airline Tells Relatives There Were No Survivors
.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: washingtonflyer
Posted 2014-03-24 09:41:24 and read 69229 times.

Wonder if we will see active, tamper proof, handshaking between aircraft and satellite or aircraft and maintenance center being mandated going forward - complete with latitude/longitude broadcast with each data packet.

AF447 had good comms which allowed the searchers to narrow the search area to a "relatively" compact area.

This search - which, by the way, still is not a done deal - has taken over two weeks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-24 09:41:31 and read 69413 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 50):

from conference today, MH CEO said co-pilot was his first flight unsupervised and the captain was a qualified examiner, could it be the captain stepped out while they settle in cruise and something happened, co-pilot panicked that he never thought that his first flight will face emergency, he dialled wrong frequencies and was transmitting in the blind and by the time the captain got back, it was chaotic

I think you're projecting AF447 a bit too much, here. What you described is almost a carbon copy of the transcripts of the last few minutes of AF447. A naive co-pilot screwing things up for a minute or so while the captain steps out of the cabin would NOT cause loss of all comms, major deviation of flight path, incapaciation of all pax and the plane to have no human hands able or willing to put it back on the right course for 7hrs.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: cat3appr50
Posted 2014-03-24 09:45:31 and read 68896 times.

So, the new claim appears to be that after the flight was diverted West shortly after IGARI it then descended quickly to 12,000 ft. altitude (this new radar/altitude information was asserted today 16 DAYS after the original Malaysian military radar data was reported). If this is true, one needs to wonder how that an aircraft the size of the B77-200 with it's course purposely altered after shut off of the transponder, ACARs, etc. and no comms, and then flown to 12,000 altitude in a highly populated area would not have immediately raised every red flag possible and have been intercepted by military aircraft.

And could an interception have helped this aircraft to land (or forced to land)?

This has been IMO one mess of contradictory information, and therefore it's (sadly) not convincing that even what they are saying now about this so called certainty it crashed in the Indian Ocean 7 hours after take off has enough objective data to truly confirm...just going by past precedence. Given what's been going on the past 16 days it would seem possible that tomorrow they could change their position, data, and information again.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: BA84
Posted 2014-03-24 09:45:48 and read 68889 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 50):
from conference today, MH CEO said co-pilot was his first flight unsupervised and the captain was a qualified examiner, could it be the captain stepped out while they settle in cruise and something happened, co-pilot panicked that he never thought that his first flight will face emergency, he dialled wrong frequencies and was transmitting in the blind and by the time the captain got back, it was chaotic

The captain wouldn't leave the cockpit only 40 minutes into the flight.
Not during an ATC hand-off, then immediate left turn.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 09:47:19 and read 68494 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 55):
I think you're projecting AF447 a bit too much, here. What you described is almost a carbon copy of the transcripts of the last few minutes of AF447. A naive co-pilot screwing things up for a minute or so while the captain steps out of the cabin would NOT cause loss of all comms, major deviation of flight path, incapaciation of all pax and the plane to have no human hands able or willing to put it back on the right course for 7hrs.

at least there are few commonility with AF447. one of them is a brand new co-pilot who was just checked out in a 777 and doing his first flight with no check co-pilot, the rest of course are what could have happened which you can not discount as we have no evidence of anything yet

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-24 09:50:47 and read 68039 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 43):
And maybe the sent "test" aircraft along the northern route as well.

Yeah, lol, would not surprise me if that Gulfstream went to Kazakhstan.

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 47):
Those Malaysians swing too much with their information during the press conferences since day one.

Yeah, but its IMMERSAT that's confirmed the updated satellite ping detail. I agree though, I don't trust anything out of Malaysia.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: dashman
Posted 2014-03-24 09:51:37 and read 67993 times.

When they find actual airplane debris not pallets from MH 370 I will believe it has been lost in the Indian Ocean. There are too many countries with special interests in this event to rely totally on their conclusions. Malaysia and China come to mind for starters.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-24 09:52:43 and read 67664 times.

Do we have actual hard data on the descent to 12,000 feet? It would be especially useful to understand how quickly such descent took place. Do we know what the aircraft did afterwards, I heard someone on the thread mention that they were again near 30,000 feet at the last point where primary military radar saw them.

Again, it really would be helpful to get some hard data here so as to be able to better understand what happened between the initial turn and the last contact point with military radar.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 09:53:09 and read 67599 times.

Quoting BA84 (Reply 57):
The captain wouldn't leave the cockpit only 40 minutes into the flight.
Not during an ATC hand-off, then immediate left turn.

Not all airlines' procedures are the same and not all pilots follow them exactly, I have seen pilots stepped out sooner we levelled off in my life time, anything is possible, there are various forums online talking about foreign carriers how they do things, and you'll be amazed how they get away with it, so nothing is impossible or out of ordinary in various parts of the world

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-24 09:54:22 and read 67472 times.

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 47):
Well maybe a bit naive, but let me see the debris first till I believe it is true.

It seems that Inmarsat calculated that from processing the last transmission, the aircraft would have insufficient fuel to reach land so must have come down in the Indian Ocean. Inmarsat's interpretation of the data would have to be wrong for anything else to have happened.

There appears to be a basic problem in the search for debris - the delay in analysing satellite images. Time is of the essence here. Debris will move and can sink between images being taken and aircraft arriving in the calculated location of anomalies which might be debris from MH370. IMO images should have been released for public scrutiny to facilitate weeding out images potentially of no interest (99+%?). False negatives do not matter since the object is to triage images to establish the order in which they should be scrutinised by the professionals.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: btfarrwm
Posted 2014-03-24 09:56:37 and read 67002 times.

Quoting ORDFan (Reply 52):
If true, I think too much is being made of the descent to 12,000 feet. At the very least: it's too easy/early to completely dismiss the foul play theory. The fact that the plane flew for ~7 hours or so and landed (crashed) in that part of the Indian Ocean means that whatever happened could not have been totally catastrophic to the aircraft.

I think you have to accept the things that we "know" happened, try to understand the things that we "think" happened, and then plug in assumptions that fit the rest of the data.

Right now, we "know" the plane is still missing after two weeks, and was apparently flying normally at the last communication with ATC. Very shortly after that, we "know" that the transponder stopped transmitting on it's assigned frequency and ACARS stopped transmitting data. We also "know" that nobody received radio communication suggesting any trouble at this time.

We have radar data that we "think" suggests the plane made a sharp descent and turn. We also know that the plane transmitted data to satellites for ~8 hrs. We "think" the plane flew a Southerly course and we also "think" debris has been spotted in a remote part of the Indian Ocean.

The task now (and until wreckage is examined to generate more data) is to develop the best set of assumptions to fit the data. I'm assuming that no pilot would intentionally fly an airplane for 8 hrs to commit suicide. There are too many data points that don't fit this explanation. Likewise a hijacking or piracy that took the plane somewhere to land don't fit the data.

IMHO, the best explanation for the data is a real or perceived mechanical failure or attempted hijacking that incapacitated everyone on board. The pilots attempted to respond (sharp turn and rapid descent) but succumbed before the plane suffered significant structural damage to make it unflyable. The waypoints were entered as a means to divert for an emergency landing or buy time to adequately assess the situation. It's easy to imagine the PF manually executing the rapid descent while the PNF was entering waypoints to nagivate. In this scenario, when they ran out of time the autopilot was still engaged. The plane then flew under autopilot to the previous altitude on the entered heading until fuel exhaustion. I can't explain the lack of emergency communication.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainstefan
Posted 2014-03-24 09:57:07 and read 67232 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 58):
at least there are few commonility with AF447. one of them is a brand new co-pilot who was just checked out in a 777 and doing his first flight with no check co-pilot, the rest of course are what could have happened which you can not discount as we have no evidence of anything yet

Inexperienced FO playing a significant role in the incidents of AF 447, OZ 214, and now with MH 370? I'm really afraid of the general (and governmental) reaction if this proves to be the case.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: PW100
Posted 2014-03-24 10:00:46 and read 66427 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 28):
Pretty disrespectful if you ask me

So how would you have reached all family members in a timely fashion, while at the same time "leaks" are picked up by journalists reporting their breaking news, while the authorities are still trying their best to reach all the family members. You'd probably scream that the authorities are holding back information, can not be trusted and obviously have an agenda as they are hiding important information from the public. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Question: Now that it seems to have been established where the plane went down, does that make any change to who will/should be leading the accident investigation, according to ICAO rules/guidelines?

PW100

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2014-03-24 10:08:34 and read 65621 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 55):
What you described is almost a carbon copy of the transcripts of the last few minutes of AF447.

There were 3 pilots in the cockpit of AF447 when it hit the water. And, two when they lost their speeds and the AP/AT disconnected. I don't see the similarities other than we don't know what happened a couple weeks after the plane(s) went missing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-24 10:16:21 and read 64384 times.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 67):
There were 3 pilots in the cockpit of AF447 when it hit the water. And, two when they lost their speeds and the AP/AT disconnected. I don't see the similarities other than we don't know what happened a couple weeks after the plane(s) went missing.

The similarities between what the OP posted as his MH370 theory and AF447 are that he postulated that maybe the captain left the cockpit for a few minutes, and the co-pilot lost control of the aircraft to the extent that it was (for some reason) unrecoverable.

I would highly doubt that actually happened in the case of MH370.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 10:18:04 and read 64208 times.

How would the autopilot respond to all engines running out of fuel? Will it glide at min sink until touchdown?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: BaconButty
Posted 2014-03-24 10:18:22 and read 64285 times.

Quoting dashman (Reply 60):

When they find actual airplane debris not pallets from MH 370 I will believe it has been lost in the Indian Ocean. There are too many countries with special interests in this event to rely totally on their conclusions. Malaysia and China come to mind for starters.

Yet it's the Analysis of a British firm, done in conjunction with an American aircraft manager and the British investigation board, that has placed the wreckage in the southern Indian Ocean.

Boeing clearly have an interest in the aircraft being found (for the same reasons Airbus had re. AF447), but it's hard to see what horse the AAIB or Inmarsat have in that particular race.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-24 10:18:46 and read 64217 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 37):

Please check latest updates, MAS and Malaysian govt. have officially told people and relatives face to face, also Video message, and sms for those who couldn't seen in person.

[Edited 2014-03-24 10:21:42]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: thunderboltdrgn
Posted 2014-03-24 10:19:30 and read 64297 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 66):
Question: Now that it seems to have been established where
the plane went down, does that make any change to who will/should be leading the
accident investigation, according to ICAO rules/guidelines?

Malaysia it seems:

"PETALING JAYA: Malaysia will likely take charge of the official probe in­to what
happened to MH370 if it is confirmed that the aircraft went down in international
waters following the discovery of possible debris 2,500km south-west of Perth.

Australia on the other hand will be responsible for the official accident inquiry if the
accident took place within its territorial waters. "

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Natio...ident-will-determine-jurisdiction/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-24 10:23:55 and read 63523 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 28):
Pretty disrespectful if you ask me....

It appears families signed up for SMS notification, so it is not totally inappropriate. But they could have used SMS to invite families to a conference and notify in person. But this doesn't make to the top of foobar list by Malaysia during this investigation.

I personally think this statement is unnecessary, they should have waited for US,Australian,NZ,Chinese and civilians to find some evidence. This is probably to get the claims process going so families won't be breathing on their necks.

I think earlier statement by Malaysian PM about "crews deliberate action" constitutes ground for legal action. In my view that is the biggest mistake.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-24 10:27:57 and read 63136 times.

From the guardian:

"It is with deep sadness that Malaysia Airlines earlier this evening had to confirm to the families of those on board Flight MH370 that it must now be assumed the flight had been lost. As the Prime Minister said, respect for the families is essential at this difficult time. And it is in that spirit that we informed the majority of the families in advance of the Prime Minister’s statement in person and by telephone. SMSs were used only as an additional means of communicating with the families. Those families have been at the heart of every action the company has taken since the flight disappeared on 8th March and they will continue to be so. When Malaysia Airlines receives approval from the investigating authorities, arrangements will be made to bring the families to the recovery area and until that time, we will continue to support the ongoing investigation."

So no, the families were not just infomed via text. I´d like to add that this info. was provided up-thread by theaviator380 but obviously nobody read it since people were still writing things about "communicating"with people via SMS.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...e-spots-white-objects-live-updates

Fire, it´s pattern of spread and the systems it damages is not difficult by specialistis to see and understand, so I suppose it won´t be long until at least fire can be established or dismissed on a preliminary report.

Other causes I think is going to be more difficult.

For the past few years I´ve heard how aviation is becoming safer and safer with a lot less accidents but that the type and cause of accidents we were going to start seeing was going to change and become much more complex, due to advances in technology, automation, etc. I suppose this is what we are seeing here. Probably the first of this new type of accidents.

That is, if it was an accident.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-24 10:28:50 and read 63034 times.

As suggested by numerous a.netters in previous threads, this has a pilot suicide (or more precisely a murder-suicide) written all over it. I believe the investigators have reached the same conclusion as the most likely theory, as both a hijacking or a mechanical failure appear to be very unlikely.

The scenario is something like this:
- the suicidal pilot incapacitates the other pilot in the cockpit
- transponder is turned off
- ACARS communications channels are turned off
- navigation to avoid primary radars until over the Indian Ocean
- ditching or crashing into the remote parts of the Southern Indian Ocean to conceal all the tracks

It is likely that the pilot depressurized the plane at some point of time to incapacitate the cabin crew and passengers. The cabin crew and passengers must have either been incapacitated or not realized that anything was wrong when flying over the Malay peninsula to prevent cell phone calls. The pilot might have incapaciated himself also at the same time and leave the plane on the autopilot, or the pilot was flying the plane until crash. The investigators can make an assumption on this based on whether the plane was flying a programmed route or hand-flown.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: alfons
Posted 2014-03-24 10:31:43 and read 62553 times.

Quoting 2008matt (Reply 12):
I postulated that the airliner was hijacked by Uighur terrorists shortly after it flew off the east coast of Malaysia. It then flew back west to the alleged Chinese air base on Great Coco Island north of the Andaman Islands, at which point demands were made (?release of prisoners) and the Chinese instructed the pilots to land at a remote southwest Chinese air force base (which happens to be on the northern trajectory the satellite pings still support).

Your theory asks for a lot of communication between the airplane and the land, a functional communication. Don't you think the Intelligence service of many countries wouldn't have catched this since long?

Or other way around: do you think China would try out such an open-field event and just hope nobody's spy/listen Infrastructure would find out what happened?

Your theory sounds more like a theater movie of the same couleur which has a lot of logical holes (as it must fit in 2 hours screening and fit the standard mind of today), and misses simply the depth of reality.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: harry1983
Posted 2014-03-24 10:37:10 and read 61749 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 69):
How would the autopilot respond to all engines running out of fuel? Will it glide at min sink until touchdown?

I would have thought it would have been sophisticated enough to do this, although question if that's the desired behavior, as you're not guaranteed to be over unpopulated area and it's highly unlikely to glide straight onto an awaiting runway.

I guess the AP would just trip off, otherwise it'd stall trying to maintain the set altitude with default behavior.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 10:38:43 and read 61664 times.

After incapacitating the other pilot, crew, and PAX, could the pilot parachute over land at 3-12kft (ala DB Cooper) leaving the 777 to carry on per the "disappear" flight plan set for max range ultimately to the southwest?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-24 10:43:10 and read 61435 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 58):
at least there are few commonility with AF447. one of them is a brand new co-pilot who was just checked out in a 777 and doing his first flight with no check co-pilot

Rubbish    You should do some BASIC fact checking before posting assertions like this. The FO (PF) on AF447 had 807 hours on type, including 61 hours in the previous 30 days. The FO (PM) had 4,479 hours on type.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 10:43:22 and read 61258 times.

As far as I'm concerned, the decent to 12,000 ft is the next piece of information/possibility/rumor to get straight. If it in fact did occur, is it a reasonable fit to an emergency decent due to a depressurization accident? If it is then the mechanical failure (possibly combined with pilot error) hypothesis becomes more likely than hijacking/pilot suicide hypothesis.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DAL763ER
Posted 2014-03-24 10:43:31 and read 61172 times.

I don't get the point of today's conference. They found some "white objects". That means nothing more than any of the discoveries from the past 14 days. How and why do they suddenly say it crashed (or, as they said, ended)?

Also, is it not obvious that it's some sort of hijacking by now, by crew or otherwise? If not a hijacking, then what the heck is it doing 6+ hours south of KUL?

And, finally, and I'll probably sound like a d$#k on this one...many people have been saying on Twitter "Oh the families must be in terrible pain at the moment". How is today different to the families than the past two weeks?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-24 10:46:20 and read 60901 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 78):
After incapacitating the other pilot, crew, and PAX, could the pilot parachute over land at 3-12kft (ala DB Cooper) leaving the 777 to carry on per the "disappear" flight plan set for max range ultimately to the southwest?

The doors are shut in a bomb proof way above a certain altitude - the term is differential pressure.

So it had to sink first, and in order to fly such a distance, climb again to cruising altitude. The proverbial hole in your theory is the door somebody would have to close after the pilot jumps out... it causes some drag.

But jumping from a can be done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_812

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 81):
How is today different to the families than the past two weeks?

Grief and mourning isn't the same in all people. Some people carry on doing what they did, keeping up their routines and going to work each and every day - until the truth strikes them really hard.

But on the other hand, some people still have hope after two weeks. And hope is a necessary thing in our life, and at the same time it's the most irrational thing we have.


David

[Edited 2014-03-24 10:49:16]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 10:46:58 and read 60724 times.

Immersat is saying they assumed 350kt speed. Isn't that rather low?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-24 10:47:10 and read 60633 times.

Somewhat tangential, but whatever has happened to the families of flight crew? Have they been able to provide any helpful information?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 10:49:01 and read 60593 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 81):
I don't get the point of today's conference. They found some "white objects". That means nothing more than any of the discoveries from the past 14 days. How and why do they suddenly say it crashed (or, as they said, ended)?

They revealed that Inmarsat has done further study of the SATCOM pings including Doppler analysis compared with aircraft on known flight paths. This allowed Inmarsat to eliminate the northern "arc" and refine the likely positions on the southern "arc."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-24 10:49:43 and read 60607 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 81):
I don't get the point of today's conference. They found some "white objects". That means nothing more than any of the discoveries from the past 14 days. How and why do they suddenly say it crashed (or, as they said, ended)?

Further analysis on INMARSAT data.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-24 10:49:53 and read 60537 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 75):
As suggested by numerous a.netters in previous threads, this has a pilot suicide (or more precisely a murder-suicide) written all over it. I believe the investigators have reached the same conclusion as the most likely theory

Based on what? Have you talked to the investigators?

There are at least two very respected contributors to these threads (Pihero and Mandala499), one of whom is extremely knowledgeable about the region. You should attempt to inform yourself by reading their posts (and rcair1's sanity checks).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 10:50:02 and read 60488 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 79):

I spoke about MH370 FO, who quoted me spoke about AF447 FO

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 10:50:09 and read 60183 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 83):
Immersat is saying they assumed 350kt speed. Isn't that rather low?

Source?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-24 10:50:30 and read 60289 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 81):
And, finally, and I'll probably sound like a d$#k on this one...many people have been saying on Twitter "Oh the families must be in terrible pain at the moment". How is today different to the families than the past two weeks?

Because it has been stated that "beyond reasonable doubt" the aircraft came down in the Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-24 10:51:34 and read 60307 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 80):
As far as I'm concerned, the decent to 12,000 ft is the next piece of information/possibility/rumor to get straight. If it in fact did occur, is it a reasonable fit to an emergency decent due to a depressurization accident? If it is then the mechanical failure (possibly combined with pilot error) hypothesis becomes more likely than hijacking/pilot suicide hypothesis.

In a mechanical failure and/or a fire and/or a depressurization you would have to explain how the transponder turned off and how the ACARS communications turned off without the SATCOM uplink not being damaged (the hourly pings). The probability of such a failure mode must be astronomical. And this does not even consider the accident just happening after the ATC hand-over and the plane flying 7 hours after the hypothetical accident.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-24 10:52:30 and read 60306 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 81):
I don't get the point of today's conference. They found some "white objects". That means nothing more than any of the discoveries from the past 14 days. How and why do they suddenly say it crashed (or, as they said, ended)?

The discovery of some "white objects" is not the data that Malaysian authorities were basing their assertions on. They made the announcement that the plane crashed into the ocean based on new methods Inmarsat have used over the past days/weeks to show them that the plane stopped communicating with the satellite in the middle of the ocean in that particular spot.

Although, IMHO, until I had confirmed wreckage retrieved from the ocean, I still would not be announcing to all the families that "your loved ones are dead and the plane went HERE". I am thinking at this point they are wanting some of the attention taken off them and are jumping at the chance to announce that they know where it went/what happened.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 79):
Rubbish    You should do some BASIC fact checking before posting assertions like this. The FO (PF) on AF447 had 807 hours on type, including 61 hours in the previous 30 days. The FO (PM) had 4,479 hours on type.

Finally. Thank you.   

[Edited 2014-03-24 10:53:04]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: TheRedBAron
Posted 2014-03-24 10:53:29 and read 60482 times.

NO. you can't jump from a airplane. DB cooper did it in the rear stairs of a 727 with the gear down and flying low and as slow as possible...even then there was no warranty he survived.... On a 777 there is no rear (below fuselage door/stairs)...

I still think as I did 7500 post ago, there was a malfunction due to explosive decompression (maybe fire) maybe one of the rear windows on the cockpit exploded and damaged the electronics. or the fire was intense , they programmed the FMC while on emergency and they became incapacitated.....also if they were flying that low, I don't know how they got so far away ( I still don't know where it crashed but surely the 777 has not that range at 12000 feet).

TRB

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: marosbts
Posted 2014-03-24 10:54:46 and read 59913 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 78):
After incapacitating the other pilot, crew, and PAX, could the pilot parachute over land at 3-12kft (ala DB Cooper) leaving the 777 to carry on per the "disappear" flight plan set for max range ultimately to the southwest?

Dont think parachutes are standard equipment, so he - either would have to have it in his suitcase, or someone would need to assist him bringing it on board. Secondly, who would close the doors after him?

I think its time to stop all those conspiracy or alternative theories. Lets face it, this was taken to south indian ocean on purpose, the purpose was to never be found again, to either commit suicide or purposedly to kill the peoplel on board. We will most likely never find out, as the CVR only records 2 hours, so whatever has happened in the cockpit at the time the transponder was turned off, will not be on the CVR. Most likely, the only way we could find out would be, if people on board remained alive and have made notes or videos on their mobiles, describing the event. My fear is however, that soon after the plan was programmed into the computer, the pilot has depresurrized the cabin and once oxygen supply has run out, everyone died of hypoxia. In that case I doubt anyone had the time to record the event until it was too late.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 10:55:14 and read 60044 times.

If the cabin was depressurized the exterior doors could be opened, correct? Which door would be easiest to open and jump from?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 10:56:32 and read 59853 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 91):
In a mechanical failure and/or a fire and/or a depressurization you would have to explain how the transponder turned off and how the ACARS communications turned off without the SATCOM uplink not being damaged (the hourly pings). The probability of such a failure mode must be astronomical.

I understand all that. I'm just saying that if it looks like a depressurization accident and walks like a depressurization accident and quacks like a depressurization accident then there's a decent chance it was a depressurization accident . On the other hand, if it doesn't match the general features of a depressurization accident...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: anfromme
Posted 2014-03-24 10:56:33 and read 59851 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 81):
I don't get the point of today's conference. They found some "white objects". That means nothing more than any of the discoveries from the past 14 days. How and why do they suddenly say it crashed (or, as they said, ended)?

You might want to read up on the news bulletins that actually deal with the announcement that they are certain the flight ended in the Indian ocean.
Short version: Inmarsat, the company operating the satellites that received the "pings" from the airplane (which were just that - pings, with no information contained about the location of the plane) crunched some data, compared with the data generated by other MAS 777 flights the last few weeks, crunched some more data, and then came up with a location (well, a certain area) from which the last "ping" was received. Now, they know when this was received, how much fuel the plane had on board, and when the next hourly ping would have been due, which then wasn't received. The last location wasn't anywhere within reach of land. Hence: Not enough fuel for another hour's flight, last known location over the Indian ocean, more than two hours away from land, no further hourly pings received - flight must have ended in the Indian ocean.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 81):

Also, is it not obvious that it's some sort of hijacking by now, by crew or otherwise? If not a hijacking, then what the heck is it doing 6+ hours south of KUL?

Well, that's exactly what many other people would like to know. But you can't call it one way or the other until you've at least found a few pieces of debris. Or better even: the FDR and CVR.
Look at how long it took them to confirm for definite that the plane had crashed. Everybody assumed that this was the case, but they didn't call it until they had reliable data placing the plane in a certain location away from land and with fuel about to expire (based on the amount of fuel they know has been on board).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 10:57:30 and read 60312 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 89):
Quoting captainx (Reply 83):Immersat is saying they assumed 350kt speed. Isn't that rather low?
Source?

Was just on CNN and said this.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 10:58:31 and read 59686 times.

Quoting Trin (Reply 92):
Finally. Thank you

Was you who mentioned AF447, when i made my comments, AF447 never crossed my mind, and as i said before no one has any right to discount any theory as we don't have any facts other than a missing flight

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-24 11:02:45 and read 59539 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 95):
If the cabin was depressurized the exterior doors could be opened, correct? Which door would be easiest to open and jump from?

Three posts on this already. Somebody stop the insanity please! I thought we were done with the 777-as-a-rocket hypothesis many threads ago.

Quoting marosbts (Reply 94):
I think its time to stop all those conspiracy or alternative theories. Lets face it, this was taken to south indian ocean on purpose, the purpose was to never be found again, to either commit suicide or purposedly to kill the peoplel on board. We will most likely never find out, as the CVR only records 2 hours, so whatever has happened in the cockpit at the time the transponder was turned off, will not be on the CVR. Most likely, the only way we could find out would be, if people on board remained alive and have made notes or videos on their mobiles, describing the event. My fear is however, that soon after the plan was programmed into the computer, the pilot has depresurrized the cabin and once oxygen supply has run out, everyone died of hypoxia. In that case I doubt anyone had the time to record the event until it was too late.

I see your point. But you would be surprised what can be learned and all the information that can be gleaned from just the wreckage. And I am pretty sure that the wreckage, the main part of it, will be found eventually. I can´t suscribe to any theory now. Pilot suicide makes sense a bit more than the loss of consciousness scenario but that´s not to say that the second scenario has lees value. Mandala99 has an excellent summary of scenarios a few threads back.

So at this point I don´t think it can be said that the plane was taken down there on prupose or by a zombie flight.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-24 11:03:14 and read 59339 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 88):
I spoke about MH370 FO, who quoted me spoke about AF447 FO

Perhaps you're not familiar with what YOU said:

Quoting capri (Reply 58):
at least there are few commonility with AF447. one of them is a brand new co-pilot who was just checked out in a 777 and doing his first flight with no check co-pilot,

As I noted, the AF447 FO (PF) had 807 hours on type, including 61 hours in the preceding 30 days. Hardly "commonality".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-24 11:03:33 and read 60334 times.

On a news website, it is frustrating to read comments that MH370 has landed on Diego Garcia. And they say that it is all fishy, INMARSAT should have handed over its "position" data two weeks ago...

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 93):
NO. you can't jump from a airplane. DB cooper did it in the rear stairs of a 727 with the gear down and flying low and as slow as possible...even then there was no warranty he survived.... On a 777 there is no rear (below fuselage door/stairs)...

 

It is possible, as proven by a guy from the Philippines. On a 330. As he used a home-made parachute, it was the impact that killed him.

But as airport security and baggage scanners have been interviewed, we should know about a smuggled parachute by now.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: MSY-MSP
Posted 2014-03-24 11:04:42 and read 59965 times.

Well, I have to say while the southern crash arc didn't make sense to me earlier on, after speaking with a former 777 captain now 747 captain we were able to hash through a possible scenario that makes some sense.

Right after the handoff from Malaysian ATC, there is a complete failure of the cockpit electrics, panels all go dark, for a few seconds. This may be coupled with the cabin altitude warning or error.

Captain realizes that he has a problem that includes possible cabin and electrical brings the plane down to 12000 and turns back towards the peninsula in anticipation of making an emergency landing.

At some point in this the electronics come back up at least in part (comms are still out). Upon reaching 12000 feet the crew is able to stabilize the pressure (warning may have been a by product of the electrical failure/glitch)

At some point here in the crew realizes that the aircraft is flying too fast for the altitude. They then find that the throttles are non-responsive and the engines are just turning away. So they make the decision to climb back to 295 to keep the aircraft from overspeeding. As they realize they cannot land the aircraft with the engines running like they were.

Realizing that they have no control of the engines, they make the decision to basically wait the fuel out and then hope to glide to a suitable airport. The idea being that they would just circle Sumatra until such time as the fuel ran out. Once the fuel ran out the idea would be to pick the closest suitable airport and glide to it.

However, at some point along the northern track when the turned south to begin the circling Sumatra the controls became completely unresponsive and the aircraft continued on the heading until it ran out of fuel. With the pilots unable to do anything about it.

Circling Sumatra gave them two advantages. First is that they don't have to worry about terrain. Second it kept them close to shore, for rescue or ditching in the event that they didn't or couldn't make an airport.

This brings the entire thing to a single incident, with the rest being the chain of events that followed from it. Eliminates all of the bad people scenarios and leaves us with a very tragic accident. The worst part of this scenario is the possibility that everyone was well aware of what was happening.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainstefan
Posted 2014-03-24 11:11:12 and read 59276 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 95):
If the cabin was depressurized the exterior doors could be opened, correct? Which door would be easiest to open and jump from?

Probably not. The doors on the 777 pivot out and then toward the nose of the airplane, so unless you have the force to combat 300+kts of wind, you're not opening the door in flight, even if it is unpressurized.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-24 11:12:21 and read 58974 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 78):
After incapacitating the other pilot, crew, and PAX, could the pilot parachute over land at 3-12kft (ala DB Cooper) leaving the 777 to carry on per the "disappear" flight plan set for max range ultimately to the southwest?

I think it's likely they'd paint the wings or tail of the aircraft if they did that with their remains.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 11:12:54 and read 58812 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 101):
As I noted, the AF447 FO (PF) had 807 hours on type, including 61 hours in the preceding 30 days. Hardly "commonality".

that doesn't mean i carbon copied AF447 scenario as was suggested or assumed, talking about assumption that's exactly what Malaysian PM said, "assuming beyond reasonable doubt", everything here is a theory not fact

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 11:14:27 and read 58576 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 98):
Quoting hivue (Reply 89):Quoting captainx (Reply 83):Immersat is saying they assumed 350kt speed. Isn't that rather low?
Source?

Was just on CNN and said this.

I guess that would be GS? I have no idea what the winds aloft were in that area on March 8.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2014-03-24 11:18:07 and read 58209 times.

Quoting MSY-MSP (Reply 103):

Is that compatible with nobody making succesful mobile calls?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-24 11:18:30 and read 58466 times.

I have a question:

With the plane at 12,000ft if this turns out to be true. Would cell phones on board have worked at that altitude?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 11:18:32 and read 58601 times.

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 104):
Probably not. The doors on the 777 pivot out and then toward the nose of the airplane, so unless you have the force to combat 300+kts of wind, you're not opening the door in flight, even if it is unpressurized.

Yes, I have verified this. Thanks. All on board took the whole ride apparently.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mffoda
Posted 2014-03-24 11:24:04 and read 57651 times.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 93):
NO. you can't jump from a airplane. DB cooper did it in the rear stairs of a 727 with the gear down and flying low and as slow as possible...even then there was no warranty he survived....

Check out Qnincy Illinois's annual skydive event that started in 92 and went on for years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0jUus74x9c

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: davidzill
Posted 2014-03-24 11:25:39 and read 57875 times.

I believe investigators came to their final conclusion that MH370 hit the deck in the remote area of the southern Indian Ocean upon further examination of INMARSAT data. I believe the preliminary examination of the data gave investigators a close but approximate lateral flight route, and a further analysis was able to provide investigators with a possible vertical trajectory the lead to an altitude of 0' MSL.

I believe that the pilots were overwhelmed and disabled by extraordinarily catastrophic conditions that caused the odds to be heavily against them as far as safely landing anywhere goes. I also think it highly unlikely that we will ever find the initial impact sight and the main body of aircraft wreckage where the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder would be.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: MSY-MSP
Posted 2014-03-24 11:28:17 and read 57313 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 108):
Is that compatible with nobody making succesful mobile calls?

Yes, it would be. Out in the middle of the straight for a while 50-100 miles from land. When they realized that they had no control of the aircraft they were way too far away for any mobile phone to have a chance of hitting a tower.

It is a theory that we put together, that fits almost all the facts of the case. One other thought we had that I had forgotten to mention is that it could have been a complete no-win scenario. If the cabin did depressurize and then the engines were not responsive, it could be the choice between high altitude with Hypoxia but keep the plane in once piece or fly low and fast and risk the airframe coming apart.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 11:30:17 and read 57067 times.

What explains the big final left turn to the south after passing Indonsia?????

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-24 11:32:13 and read 56889 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 106):
everything here is a theory not fact

AF447 FO's experience is a fact, not a theory. You seriously misstated it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-24 11:38:53 and read 56421 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 97):
Or better even: the FDR and CVR.

Similar to what happened on the SilkAir crash in Indonesia in the late 90s; is it possible to manually pop the breakers for the CVR&FDR on a 777? If that is the case there is a possibility that we may never come to know what happened on MH 370. If the CVF&FDR recording can be manually switched off in a deliberate act then why have the recommendations issued by NTSB subsequent to MI 185 been implemented? Posted 2014-03-24 11:42:13 and read 56018 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 112):
I believe investigators came to their final conclusion that MH370 hit the deck in the remote area of the southern Indian Ocean upon further examination of INMARSAT data. I believe the preliminary examination of the data gave investigators a close but approximate lateral flight route, and a further analysis was able to provide investigators with a possible vertical trajectory the lead to an altitude of 0' MSL.

From what I heard on the BBC news (a) a new kind of analysis was done (b) doppler effect was memtioned (c) comparisons were made with known flight data of other flights to develop a new model for calculation



PS Just heard an Inmarsat spokesman interviewed on BBC say the aircraft's altitude was estimated to be 33,000ft


[Edited 2014-03-24 11:43:02]

[Edited 2014-03-24 11:57:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 11:49:49 and read 55339 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 115):


this what was my post
from conference today, MH CEO said co-pilot was his first flight unsupervised and the captain was a qualified examiner, could it be the captain stepped out while they settle in cruise and something happened, co-pilot panicked that he never thought that his first flight will face emergency, he dialled wrong frequencies and was transmitting in the blind and by the time the captain got back, it was chaotic

I never mentioned AF447, so someone said this a carbon copy of AF447, so get your facts right

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: alfons
Posted 2014-03-24 11:49:52 and read 55369 times.

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 104):
This brings the entire thing to a single incident, with the rest being the chain of events that followed from it. Eliminates all of the bad people scenarios and leaves us with a very tragic accident. The worst part of this scenario is the possibility that everyone was well aware of what was happening.

What is your former 777 pilot saying about the initial Incident idea (all going off). Did something like this ever happened, and is something like that possible at all? And then later come back (like a single computer reboot)?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: namezero111111
Posted 2014-03-24 11:56:06 and read 54440 times.

Quoting MSY-MSP (Reply 103):

I think the circumstances involved here would make the probability of this scenario occurring like that essentially zero. how do you posit these crazy failures occurred, including all loss of flight controls? Not to mention the plane then flying off by itself, without engine control or flight control into the abyss for 7 hours.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-24 11:57:58 and read 54360 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 118):
this what was my post

I suggest you read your own post (Reply 58):

Quoting capri (Reply 58):
at least there are few commonility with AF447. one of them is a brand new co-pilot who was just checked out in a 777 and doing his first flight with no check co-pilot

Or are you saying that it was identity theft and you didn't write that post?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-24 12:00:29 and read 54332 times.

Quoting davidzill (Reply 2):
divert field on Palau island or maybe a return to the original airport.

Pulau = Malay/Indonesian for Island... Palau island is somewhere in the pacific :p

Quoting koruman (Reply 11):
I postulated that the airliner was hijacked by Uighur terrorists shortly after it flew off the east coast of Malaysia. It then flew back west to the alleged Chinese air base on Great Coco Island north of the Andaman Islands, at which point demands were made (?release of prisoners) and the Chinese instructed the pilots to land at a remote southwest Chinese air force base (which happens to be on the northern trajectory the satellite pings still support).

OMG!  So the Inmarsat pings are false? Their statement of "consistently moving away from the satellite" was false too?

Quoting flood (Reply 45):
It's worth noting that, in an interview with CNN, an Inmarsat VP said their conclusion was peer reviewed by the industry and Boeing had contributed.

And the satellites are probably made by Boeing too! :p

Quoting AR385 (Reply 109):
With the plane at 12,000ft if this turns out to be true. Would cell phones on board have worked at that altitude?

I received a phone call at over 20,000ft once, if I remember correctly I also received an SMS at 28,000ft... BUT! This was over land with relatively good coverage... and if I remember correctly, the reception sucks at that altitude! I couldn't hear anything but "garbled whatever"...
I did make a call at 7000ft once, an we were circling a cellphone tower at the time too ! :p

Quoting MSY-MSP (Reply 103):
At some point here in the crew realizes that the aircraft is flying too fast for the altitude. They then find that the throttles are non-responsive and the engines are just turning away.

Why not just make a steep climb and when the speed is low enough, extend the landing gear, speedbrakes what have you... And if the engines were stuck, they'd be stuck at idle due to the dive they just did, or they would have simply disintegrated due to excessive overspeed during the dive to 12,000. Sorry... this one doesn't make sense...

Quoting MSY-MSP (Reply 103):
they make the decision to basically wait the fuel out and then hope to glide to a suitable airport. The idea being that they would just circle Sumatra until such time as the fuel ran out. Once the fuel ran out the idea would be to pick the closest suitable airport and glide to it.

Again, this doesn't make sense. They could dump fuel... or make the fuel consumption extremely high by staying low in a high drag situation. There are so many ways (uncomfortable ways) to make you bleed energy.

Plus, are you aware how many airports in Sumatra can take the 777? Let's see... we have MES (closed) replaced by KNO. We have BTJ, we have PDG... we have PLM... and that's about it. Circling around Sumatra to wait for fuel to run out doesn't make sense... sorry. While if they just went in a circle, they got KUL KLIA, Penang, Phuket, Langkawi, even Butterworth AB if they needed it, then also KL Subang, all within a more concise area than Sumatra... then if they go south they got Johor Bharu, Singapore Changi, Singapore Paya Lebar, and Batam... This is still within a more confined area than "going around Sumatra"...

Quoting MSY-MSP (Reply 103):
First is that they don't have to worry about terrain. Second it kept them close to shore, for rescue or ditching in the event that they didn't or couldn't make an airport.

Terrain apart from Medan area and Banda Aceh Area, is largely on the western edge of Sumatra... why go around it? The water is also deeper on the west. A Malaysian with some geography education would know... while the Strait of Malacca is utterly shallow... I'd rather ditch there than the sea west of Sumatra thanks...

Quoting davidzill (Reply 112):
I believe the preliminary examination of the data gave investigators a close but approximate lateral flight route, and a further analysis was able to provide investigators with a possible vertical trajectory the lead to an altitude of 0' MSL.

If that's the case, they should have told us exactly where it went down then... they didn't. The pings were hourly... not every few seconds...

Quoting captainx (Reply 114):
What explains the big final left turn to the south after passing Indonsia?????

Enter this to your FMC: S9000.0 E00000.0  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Pihero
Posted 2014-03-24 12:09:02 and read 53365 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 95):
If the cabin was depressurized the exterior doors could be opened, correct? Which door would be easiest to open and jump from?

Against the airstream. Please look how a 777 door opens first.

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 104):

Probably not. The doors on the 777 pivot out and then toward the nose of the airplane, so unless you have the force to combat 300+kts of wind, you're not opening the door in flight, even if it is unpressurized.
Quoting captainx (Reply 110):
Yes, I have verified this.

End of subject

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 12:10:28 and read 52989 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 121):

you should answer reply 55, I wonder why you are avoiding that, a conflict of interest maybe???

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2014-03-24 12:12:07 and read 52758 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 102):
On a news website, it is frustrating to read comments that MH370 has landed on Diego Garcia. And they say that it is all fishy, INMARSAT should have handed over its "position" data two weeks ago...

Oh yes, I came across those comments as well. And I tried to talk/write some reason into them. Guess what the answer was:

"They managed to cover up 9/11 so they try to do the same here. It's all the Americans waging a secret war against China."

WTF^Googolplexplex?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: FltAdmiralRitt
Posted 2014-03-24 12:13:36 and read 52806 times.

QUOTE "

NAMZERO111111
I think the
circumstances involved here would make the probability of this scenario occurring
like that essentially zero. how do you posit these crazy failures occurred,
including all loss of flight controls? Not to mention the plane then flying off by itself,
without engine control or flight control into the abyss for 7 hours. "



On the contrary, a series cascading failures that led to the aircraft being
increasingly disabled is very plausible. The unknown is what caused those failures.
Because the only other plausible theory a pilot who plots suicide and does not want evidence found.

Neither is to be discounted at this point.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-24 12:15:37 and read 53204 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 124):
a conflict of interest maybe???

  

Did you write reply 58 or not?

Quoting capri (Reply 58):
at least there are few commonility with AF447. one of them is a brand new co-pilot who was just checked out in a 777 and doing his first flight with no check co-pilot

And did you write reply 118 or not?

Quoting capri (Reply 118):
I never mentioned AF447

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2014-03-24 12:19:12 and read 53011 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 122):

And the satellites are probably made by Boeing too! :p

At first I thought you were just having some fun. Then I found this . . .

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/defense...ts/702/Inmarsat-5/Inmarsat-5.page?

Who knew?

bt

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 12:23:27 and read 52457 times.

A human made (or programmed the FMC) a left turn south after crossing undetected west of Indonesia. That strongly supports the theory that it was all planned imo. What else explains this long steady track south?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: MigPilot
Posted 2014-03-24 12:27:14 and read 52105 times.

what I have learned from all the threads about MH370 is that absolutely nothing is certain! Before the flight recorders are recovered and analyzed or pieces of the wreckage allow new conclusions, any theory about the course of events is just pure speculation!

Some of the ideas postulated here are bordering at a freak show. The imagination of people is really…astonishing. From the plane safe and sound on a runway in Kazakhstan ready to be used as a platform for a dirty bomb, to meteorite hit, we had covered really everything!

One can only hope that the CVR/FDR will be found one day and hopefully tell the true story, otherwise this case will be the blueprint for nutcase theories the world has never seen before  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: jox
Posted 2014-03-24 12:31:12 and read 51998 times.

My theory is that MH is keeping the cargo manifest secret because it reveals that there were 3 Daleks on board. Apparently they escaped the cargo hold and destroyed the comms. They were then taken out by a Wombat, and the aircraft was pulled off course by a tractor beam from a passing constitution class starship (not determined if it was NCC-1701 or not). As Elvis was one of the passengers traveling on fake passport, he tried to take over the controls, but that failed and the plane crashed on top of the sailing ship of the flying dutchman.

Plausible? Well - at least as plausible as some other theories here  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AT
Posted 2014-03-24 12:32:06 and read 51537 times.

Assuming that this crash is due to deliberate pilot action, then isn't there somewhat of a conflict of interest if Malaysia Airlines or the Malaysian Government (of which MAS is the flag carrier) leads the investigation?

If the pilots are responsible, it would be in their interest to downplay aspects of the investigation that show airline culpability or negligence. I'm not saying they would do anything improper, but sometimes the perception of a conflict of interest can be as bad as an actual conflict of interest.

What do others think?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-24 12:32:44 and read 51486 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 127):
Quoting capri (Reply 124):
a conflict of interest maybe???

  

Did you write reply 58 or not?

Quoting capri (Reply 58):
at least there are few commonility with AF447. one of them is a brand new co-pilot who was just checked out in a 777 and doing his first flight with no check co-pilot

And did you write reply 118 or not?

Quoting capri (Reply 118):
I never mentioned AF447

Oh good grief - *I* mentioned AF447. I mentioned it because I suggested 'capri' was projecting AF447 a bit too much in his/her theory of what happened to MH370, which I can quote below:

Quoting capri (Reply 50):
from conference today, MH CEO said co-pilot was his first flight unsupervised and the captain was a qualified examiner, could it be the captain stepped out while they settle in cruise and something happened, co-pilot panicked that he never thought that his first flight will face emergency, he dialled wrong frequencies and was transmitting in the blind and by the time the captain got back, it was chaotic

Really, I was just attempting to display to 'capri' that the sort of event (captain leaving the cockpit, co-pilot flying and getting everything screwed up) they are suggesting happened in this case more than likely didn't happen, and that to me it sounded like they were projecting AF447 a bit too much. I am NOT saying that it is a "carbon copy", as someone asserted - moreover just that it is a bit silly to throw out postulation after postulation about what COULD HAVE happened in the cockpit of MH370. Myself, I prefer to stick to known facts and wait for more information - I've never seen the point in creating theory after theory.

[Edited 2014-03-24 12:34:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2014-03-24 12:34:14 and read 51262 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 69):

How would the autopilot respond to all engines running out of fuel? Will it glide at min sink until touchdown?


No, it will pitch up until it stalls and will then disconnect

Quoting capri (Reply 118):
never mentioned AF447, so someone said this a carbon copy of AF447, so get your facts right

Read your own post, no. 58. You clearly state that both AF 447 and this flight had new FOs flying without supervision for the first time which is not true.

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 65):
Inexperienced FO playing a significant role in the incidents of AF 447, OZ 214, and now with MH 370? I'm really afraid of the general (and governmental) reaction if this proves to be the case.

Firstly, we have no evidence to suggest that the FO's inexperience has anything to do with this flight. Secondly, neither of the two FOs on AF 447 were particularly inexperienced and one was very experienced (with more hours on type than the PIC). As for OZ 214 - there was not even an FO at the controls, but two highly experienced Captains!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: FCAFLYBOY
Posted 2014-03-24 12:38:56 and read 50929 times.

Enough already with the arguing and bickering Kaiarahi and Capri - 239 people
Have been confirmed dead today. If you must continue perhaps do it by PM as at 40-something threads already we really don't need to bulk it out anymore with tit-for-tat.

Rip to all those lost (even though none of us are suprised at today's news) and of course
To their families left behind. Let's all hope this mystery is finally solved sooner or later, rather than never.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 12:39:13 and read 50912 times.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 134):
Quoting captainx (Reply 69):
How would the autopilot respond to all engines running out of fuel? Will it glide at min sink until touchdown?


No, it will pitch up until it stalls and will then disconnect

If this is true, it went straight in unless someone was at the controls to fly it otherwise.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-24 12:47:51 and read 50222 times.

Quoting art (Reply 117):

From what I heard on the BBC news (a) a new kind of analysis was done (b) doppler effect was memtioned (c) comparisons were made with known flight data of other flights to develop a new model for calculation

That's correct. The Doppler effect is well understood by astronomers and NASA and if you are able to analyze any emission (light or radio wave) you will get both speed and altitude. I kind of questioned whether or not they could do that in hindsight (I don't know how much information was stored) but perhaps they recreated the scenario and measured the doppler shift from a test aircraft flying that arc. It would be extremely precise if you understood how to do it. Mostly, that's NASA engineers though.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 12:49:43 and read 49980 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 129):
What else explains this long steady track south?

Aircraft on autopilot, no one awake to alter the long steady track south?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 65mustang
Posted 2014-03-24 12:55:27 and read 49402 times.

RCAIR1: Back in Part 42 you answered a question (Part 42, reply 15) of mine with:

I think they base that on distance, not doppler.
While - in theory, you may get a doppler effect off the carrier wave - I doubt the satellite can detect it. That is another way of saying it is designed to ignore/compensate for frequency shifts of the magnitude doppler could provide.

End post.

I knew that Inmarsat calculated distance of the airplane from the satellite based on the strength of the ping(signal fades the further away the plane is), but I was inquiring about the ping itself and what did that data look like. I was wondering if the ping would look different traveling away from the sat vs. traveling toward. The first two pings would have been above the equator so i think if they determined the first two pings occurred while the plane was moving toward the sat, that means the aircraft was flying south. If the first two pings were heading away from the sat then the aircraft went north.

With the new Inmarsat data, do you think they found a difference in the length of the pings, or was it something else? I read somewhere that the satellite itself moves and that is what they used.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: LTC8K6
Posted 2014-03-24 12:56:41 and read 49203 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 138):
Aircraft on autopilot, no one awake to alter the long steady track south?

Well, first we need to know how it got on that track.

It certainly made a number of interesting moves before then.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: tarmacphotos
Posted 2014-03-24 12:57:50 and read 49375 times.

The biggest question I have is...Is it possible for an aircraft to hit the water and none of the many ELTs aboard went off? There are several water activated (in life rafts) and g force activated ELTs that would have immediately sent a burst of data to a satellite upon impacting the water. Is there a flaw in the system? Is there a gap in satellite coverage in that part of the world?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: captainx
Posted 2014-03-24 13:00:42 and read 49094 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 138):
What else explains this long steady track south? Aircraft on autopilot, no one awake to alter the long steady track south?

After Indonesia was passed, someone had to enter either a manual heading SOUTH or had to enter a SOUTH waypoint/route. Someone had to be alive to do that. Argues against a mech fault.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-24 13:10:51 and read 48345 times.

This is from a BBC interview with Mr McLaughlin, Inmarsat VP.

Quote:
McLaughlin: We took Malaysian 777 aircraft data and modeled that and then put that against the northern and southern path and what we discovered was that the path to the south is undoubtedly the one taken.
Reporter: So you compared it to the other aircraft... I mean why haven't you come up with this before, why has it taken so long time to get to this point?
Mr McLaughlin: We have been dealing with a totally new area. We have been trying to help an investigation based on a single signal once an hour from an aircraft that did not include any GPS data, any time and distance information. So this really was a bit shot into the dark and it is to the credit to our scientific team that they came up and managed to model this. They managed to find a way in which to say just a single ping can be used to say that the plane was both powered up and travelling, and then by a process of elimination comparing it to other known flights established that it went south.
Reporter: Is this it now or can you pinpoint even further where it might be?
McLaughlin: We cannot help you with any closer data...

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26723980

It seems that they are only able to show that the southern path was taken and the northern path could be excluded.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-24 13:12:02 and read 48112 times.

I agree with the family committee statement that Malaysian Airlines, the Malaysian government, and the Malaysian Military is covering up something, with the biggest evidence being that MH is refusing to release the cargo manifest. That manifest may be one of the biggest clues we have and might help searchers determine if any of this "debris" is a match. Some of the statements from family members:

“If our 154 relatives aboard lost their lives due to such reasons, then Malaysia Airlines, the Malaysian government and the Malaysian military are the real murderers that killed them,”

"You announce this information today. ... Is it really confirmed? What's your proof? We've been waiting for 17 days. You simply tell us this! Where is the proof? It's wrong to announce the information like this!"

I agree with that above statement that the Malaysian PM should not have announced this until they had a piece of wreckage IN HAND............ if this is the way that the Malaysians botch up the announcements, I hate to say this, but I have a feeling that we're going to have another Egyptair 990 on our hands where the Malaysians disagree with the NTSB findings.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 13:13:05 and read 48053 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 142):
Someone had to be alive to do that. Argues against a mech fault.

That's a non sequitur. Mechanical problems happen all the time with live crew. And live crew sometimes do strange things.(No, I'm not going to cite AF447 as an eample. )

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2014-03-24 13:17:16 and read 47641 times.

Quoting AT (Reply 132):
Assuming that this crash is due to deliberate pilot action,

Based on PM's statement from his first news conference it is no longer an assumption, at least for legal purposes. Attorneys are going to have a field day. Unless investigation proves this is totally mechanical, MH/Malaysia looking at huge payouts.

I guess sovereign immunity allows them to conduct their own investigation.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-24 13:23:07 and read 47331 times.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 143):

It's incredible how they were able to figure this out. I was surprised they were able to figure out how long the individual pings took but using Doppler effect and all that craziness? Buy that team a drink, they deserve it.

Wonder what FWF and his unnamed source(s) are saying now? Gonna head over to his Twitter... doubt that egomanic is saying much  

Edit: seems like he's sticking to his guns lol. He claims to not trust the US government yet he is trusting his US government source? He is sounding pretty crazy in his tweets, he's either gonna be able to say "I told you so!" to everyone forever or he just needs to STFU

[Edited 2014-03-24 13:26:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mika
Posted 2014-03-24 13:24:22 and read 46962 times.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 135):
Enough already with the arguing and bickering Kaiarahi and Capri - 239 people
Have been confirmed dead today. If you must continue perhaps do it by PM as at 40-something threads already we really don't need to bulk it out anymore with tit-for-tat.

Rip to all those lost (even though none of us are suprised at today's news) and of course
To their families left behind. Let's all hope this mystery is finally solved sooner or later, rather than never.

Amen to this. Whatever will end up being the true cause, if it is ever found, to this human catastrophe (because at the end of the day that's what this is) it is a very sad fact that 239 people have beyond any reasonable doubt perished in this air disaster. They are all gone in the indian ocean and we know it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 747megatop
Posted 2014-03-24 13:31:50 and read 46354 times.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 135):
Let's all hope this mystery is finally solved sooner or later, rather than never.

And for the mystery to be solved the impact area needs to be found accurately before underwater search can commence. This is what the designer of Remus 6000 [the underswater sub that found AF 447] has to say -

Purcell said that without a more defined area, “it would take the rest of my lifetime and part of my next one to conduct that search.”
http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/s...s-subonstandbytohelpfindmh370.html

[Edited 2014-03-24 13:35:11]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: spyglass
Posted 2014-03-24 13:32:18 and read 46552 times.

Sorry, but all the "satellite data" notwithstanding, I don't believe that plane ever went into the drink. It's on the ground somewhere either in a large hangar or very well camouflaged. There also likely around 230 dead from hypoxia. A "Payne Stewart" type explanation makes no sense, and since no motive has been established and apparently no ELT signal received, to me this stands as an incident planned and evidently accomplished. I have a pretty good idea how it was done, but not certain by who (or whom, as the case may be)......'course I could be tinklin' in the wind, too. Time will tell.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: cat3appr50
Posted 2014-03-24 13:39:10 and read 45774 times.

What is the source/objective data that confirms after being West of Malaysia, past VPG VOR, VAMPI, and MEKAR (I guess that's the current furthest Westward waypoint by radar reported...but who knows, it started out as IGREX, then was MEKAR, and then maybe TOPIN...not sure what waypoint and altitude it might be this week 25000 ft, 12,000 ft. MEKAR, TOPIN, what? )...in any event what is the source/reasoning that their flight path went direct South (at what seems to be asserted as a line of constant Longitude) with no variation East or West, or that they didn't go further West and then Southeast, after whatever radar waypoint was truly the last waypoint West of Malaysia before turning South for another 4.5-5 hours?

So hard to follow the logic being reported, let alone the constant change in radar, etc. data being reported

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-24 13:41:23 and read 46363 times.

Quoting spyglass (Reply 150):
Sorry, but all the "satellite data" notwithstanding, I don't believe that plane ever went into the drink. It's on the ground somewhere either in a large hangar or very well camouflaged. There also likely around 230 dead from hypoxia. A "Payne Stewart" type explanation makes no sense, and since no motive has been established and apparently no ELT signal received, to me this stands as an incident planned and evidently accomplished. I have a pretty good idea how it was done, but not certain by who (or whom, as the case may be)......'course I could be tinklin' in the wind, too. Time will tell.

Do you have anything solid to back that up? And I suppose Inmarsat is just making its findings up?

I apologize that I can't buy into your well thought out theory despite all the evidence you're providing  

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: art
Posted 2014-03-24 13:49:36 and read 45444 times.

Quoting spyglass (Reply 150):
Sorry, but all the "satellite data" notwithstanding, I don't believe that plane ever went into the drink. It's on the ground somewhere either in a large hangar or very well camouflaged.

So the slightly more scientific data-based approach adopted by Inmarsat is less believable to you? Time to debunk Inmarsat's data (I would suggest that is impossible) or their calculation methodology (which is reported to have passed peer review) to render their claims less believable than yours, methinks.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2014-03-24 13:54:06 and read 45109 times.

Sorry if this had already been mentioned, but it is sad (in more than one way) that floating garbage in the ocean is complicating the search:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/21/wo...ing-plane-ocean-garbage/index.html


"(CNN) -- Another debris field, another new and so-far futile focus in the search for Flight MH370.
Two weeks after the Malaysia Airlines jet disappeared, one thing has been made clear: the ocean is full of garbage, literally.
"It isn't like looking for a needle in a haystack," Conservation International senior scientist M. Sanjayan said of the difficulty in finding the Boeing 777 aircraft. "It's like looking for a needle in a needle factory. It is one piece of debris among billions floating in the ocean." "...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: theaviator380
Posted 2014-03-24 13:56:34 and read 44805 times.

Does any one what happened to Pilot's sim? Forensic experts were in a process of retrieving data isn't it ? Any new info on that yet?

Also does it really that long to conclude who rang pilot or whom he rang 30mins before take off? What kind of discussion it involved?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Trin
Posted 2014-03-24 13:59:48 and read 44675 times.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 155):
Also does it really that long to conclude who rang pilot or whom he rang 30mins before take off? What kind of discussion it involved?

That has been going around in my head today, too. I think that they need to come out and provide details of what this phonecall was about. I am sure it will be revealed to be a completely benign thing.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Finn350
Posted 2014-03-24 14:00:22 and read 44571 times.

Quoting cat3appr50 (Reply 151):
in any event what is the source/reasoning that their flight path went direct South (at what seems to be asserted as a line of constant Longitude) with no variation East or West, or that they didn't go further West and then Southeast, after whatever radar waypoint was truly the last waypoint West of Malaysia before turning South for another 4.5-5 hours?

As far as I understand, based on the Inmarsat analysis it can be establisehd that the aircraft was at some point across the southern arc at 8:11 am. No further refinement based on the Inmarsat data can be made.

Apparently the southern end of the southern arc is supported by an NTSB analysis that has not been made public as the "highest probability track".

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-24 14:05:05 and read 44167 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 147):
Wonder what FWF and his unnamed source(s) are saying now? Gonna head over to his Twitter... doubt that egomanic is saying much

Edit: seems like he's sticking to his guns lol. He claims to not trust the US government yet he is trusting his US government source? He is sounding pretty crazy in his tweets, he's either gonna be able to say "I told you so!" to everyone forever or he just needs to STFU

I agree. But remember how much sway he was having here and the amount of people who believed the craziness he was spewing.

Quoting spyglass (Reply 150):
Sorry, but all the "satellite data" notwithstanding, I don't believe that plane ever went into the drink. It's on the ground somewhere either in a large hangar or very well camouflaged.

You are obviously kidding, or there is something wrong with how you have read and interpreted the information of the past 40 threads. Or probably you have not even read a single one of them. At this point to still believe something like that is beyond me. Of course, you have every right to. But the evidence is the evidence.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2014-03-24 14:17:49 and read 43337 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 144):
the Malaysian Military is covering up something, with the biggest evidence being that MH is refusing to release the cargo manifest. That manifest may be one of the biggest clues we have and might help searchers determine if any of this "debris" is a match.

The searchers have been briefed on what was in the cargo. We (public and a.net rubberneckers) have no need to know.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 144):
I have a feeling that we're going to have another Egyptair 990 on our hands where the Malaysians disagree with the NTSB findings.

The NTSB won't be making any findings, because they're not the investigating authority.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 146):
I guess sovereign immunity allows them to conduct their own investigation.

No. Annex 13 of the International Convention on Civil Aviation determines who leads the investigation. If the final impact occurred in international waters, it's the state of registration (Malaysia). If it occurred in Australian waters (which seems unlikely at this stage), Australia would lead.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: holzmann
Posted 2014-03-24 14:27:03 and read 42575 times.

DER SPIEGEL claims MH370 to be the biggest aviation mystery since Ameila Earhart...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...mer-on-fate-of-mh370-a-960464.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 14:32:05 and read 41895 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 159):
The NTSB won't be making any findings, because they're not the investigating authority.

I imagine the NTSB will be invited/allowed to contribute its    as the official investigative body for the country of manufacture of the missing aircraft.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mffoda
Posted 2014-03-24 14:35:20 and read 41775 times.

There was some early reports that the pilots family was missing/left their home preceding this flight. Has anyone confirmed this, or was this media rambling?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 14:45:18 and read 40928 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 162):
There was some early reports that the pilots family was missing/left their home preceding this flight. Has anyone confirmed this, or was this media rambling?

See rcair1's sanity check:
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

under "Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: skopsko
Posted 2014-03-24 14:45:42 and read 41066 times.

Something about the Malaysian government announcement that the plane is lost and everyone is dead doesn't make sense to me. First, they still have no physical proof of the plane crashed and no bodies have been found so far. And while the search is still being conducted and new "evidence" of debris is being discovered everyday, why not wait a few more days to announce something like this? Something is not natural about the way this investigation is going, and I feel there's more to this story that the Malaysian (and perhaps other governments) are not revealing.

This announcement seems a little bit like an "excuse" to bring temporary closure to the issue, so they get the pressure off their backs, but there's just so many strange circumstances in this case, that you can't believe it's just an "accident" and that they'd fly south to "nowhere" do just dump the plane. Just my two cents.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-24 14:51:10 and read 40478 times.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 164):
Something about the Malaysian government announcement that the plane is lost and everyone is dead doesn't make sense to me. First, they still have no physical proof of the plane crashed and no bodies have been found so far.

While I don't buy into the evidence-less conspiracy theories, I think they should at least explain why they said what they did or be a bit less certain. They could say that the plane was left with 30 mins of fuel while it was 5 hours away from any shoreline and no ELT signals have been heard from life rafts or whatever, but even if they're 99% sure the plane crashed, I agree that they shouldn't be saying it

I also think the Malaysians are being a bit fishy but I think it's mostly due to incompetence and maybe they're dragging their feet, not because of a conspiracy, but because it shows how poor their radar may be or that they were allowing dangerous cargo or something. Then again, what we hear and what goes on behind the scenes could be much different

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: cpw
Posted 2014-03-24 14:51:38 and read 40439 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 144):
I have a feeling that we're going to have another Egyptair 990 on our hands where the Malaysians disagree with the NTSB findings.
Quoting hivue (Reply 161):
I imagine the NTSB will be invited/allowed to contribute its as the official investigative body for the country of manufacture of the missing aircraft.

NTSB has been known to release entities from participating as active members in an investigation if they speak about the investigation on their own (Asiana Airlines, if I remember correctly). It is not NTSB's role to speak on behalf of the investigation - they are not the lead investigators. NTSB is rightfully maintaining its silence on the matter, because they're supporting the efforts.

On March 12, NTSB released the following news release (http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2014/140312.html):

Quote:

NTSB UPDATES STATEMENT ON MISSING B-777 INVESTIGATION
MARCH 12

National Transportation Safety Board investigators who traveled to Kuala Lumpur over the weekend are assisting Malaysian authorities who are leading the search efforts for the Boeing 777 that went missing five days ago.

Investigators with expertise in air traffic control and radar are providing technical assistance to the Malaysian authorities who are working on locating the missing jetliner.

The NTSB plans no further releases of information on the investigation.

See the last sentence, and the fact that they stated that Malaysian authorities are leading the search efforts almost two weeks ago. NTSB is doing exactly what they would expect of agencies supporting efforts where it is the lead agency.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: shortstack81
Posted 2014-03-24 15:05:21 and read 39494 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 147):
seems like he's sticking to his guns lol. He claims to not trust the US government yet he is trusting his US government source? He is sounding pretty crazy in his tweets, he's either gonna be able to say "I told you so!" to everyone forever or he just needs to STFU

I get the distinct sense there's two camps in the US establishment, and the people leaking to FWF and others basically think air piracy/terrorism/hijacking is the camp whose leaks have driven some of the coverage in the US. It took almost 10 days for media to even consider this could be a horrific accident.

Either that or his sources are lying to him for whatever reason.

I'm very sad about the whole situation. I hope the families get answers.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Pihero
Posted 2014-03-24 15:05:49 and read 39686 times.

Want to know more about Inmarsat satellite 'pings'?
This is the clearest, easiest to understand explanation about the *pings* :
Flight 370 and pings
You could also see the article underneath, with the NTSB / INMARSAT determination.
I do not fully agree with the first article as I see, after study, a time-based solution rather than an angular one... which is IMO confirmed by the use of Doppler shifts to discriminate the Northern arcs from the South path : Apparently there is a slight wobble on the satellite caused bay the fact that our Earth is not a perfect globe. These fraquency shifts match those tried in the South.

I am really amazed that , eighteen days after the accident, people still go on proposing the most outlandish theories, without the first hint at technical knowledge, the only basis for their elucubrations being generously ascribed to being of a different culture.

The public has the right to to think or even to ask that some factual documents should have been released : the original loadsheet, with the fuel quantity / the cargo manifest / the VHF Com exchanges between Flight 370 and the various ATCs / even the crew details on last month activity / the weather file they were given... etc...
...But the public has absolutely no right to demand that these be released. The Malaysian government is of a sovereign country and who are we, we and our arrogance to demand it ?

On the same subject, are we not in an aviation forum whereas those interested in political criticisms probably have thousands of sites to vent their prejudices ?

I for one was deeply moved by the Prime Minister made his public announcement that all hopes of finding anyone alive should be abandoned. That was the first and only time I watched the news on this subject and it came out of the blue in the middle of a political show I was watching about our week-end elections.
If any of you have any doubt on my feelings, I love Malaysia, like I do another fifty or so other countries and I hope i'd have some time in the near future to see friends there, do some touring and some serious diving.

Regards

[Edited 2014-03-24 15:11:25]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mffoda
Posted 2014-03-24 15:09:00 and read 39120 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 163):
See rcair1's sanity check:
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

under "Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories."

Yes, I read that. It does not cover the whereabouts of the Captains family... Unless I missed it.

Regards,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: PW100
Posted 2014-03-24 15:18:23 and read 38369 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 128):
At first I thought you were just having some fun. Then I found this . . .http://www.boeing.com/boeing/defense...ts/702/Inmarsat-5/Inmarsat-5.page?Who knew?bt

You probably aware, but just to point out. You were referring to Inmarsat-5. The Inmarsat-3 series were build by Lockheed Martin Astro Space . . .

Rgds,
PW100

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: ozark1
Posted 2014-03-24 15:24:33 and read 37917 times.

Quoting BA84 (Reply 44):
They were incapacitated, or dead, not terrified.They just went to sleep.

Yes, I agree completely. I have thought this from the beginning and am confident that they all lost consciousness quickly.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: PacNWjet
Posted 2014-03-24 15:30:12 and read 37473 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 168):
...But the public has absolutely no right to demand that these be released. The Malaysian government is of a sovereign country and who are we, we and our arrogance to demand it ?

The public may have no right to demand information, but it actually is in the interest of governments to release information to the public if it maintains confidence and trust in the safety of commercial aviation. Assuming that what brought down MH 370 were circumstances that represent odds on the order of, say, a billion to one, that actually speaks rather well of the safety of commercial aviation. Passenger airlines are by and large privately run operations these days, but governments still have an interest in maintaining confidence in a vital element of global commerce (this is even more true where governments own and/or operate passenger airlines). If it is the case that the MH 370 accident was caused by something that is exceedingly rare (with an infinitesimal chance of ever happening again), governments that would like to see citizens retain their trust in air travel would be well advised to provide enough information as possible to promote that trust. In the end, it's good public relations.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: p51tang
Posted 2014-03-24 15:30:27 and read 37794 times.

Quote:
As air traffic controllers struggled to re-establish contact with Flight 370, military radar at the Butterworth air force base on Malaysia’s west coast picked up an unidentified aircraft near where the plane disappeared.

But the watch team, normally an officer and three enlisted personnel, either failed to notice the signal or decided not to designate and track it as a “zombie,” which would have pushed the information up the chain of command and possibly alerted air command.

At a briefing on the base the next night, about 80 air force personnel were told there was “no proof” the unidentified signal showed the missing plane making a sharp turn, flying back across Peninsular Malaysia and then turning again and heading northwest over the Strait of Malacca, a person familiar with the situation said.

But investigators now believe that is exactly what happened.

The failure to recognize Flight 370 in the radar data — or refusal to do so, to avoid the embarrassment of admitting an unidentified plane had breached air defense — meant the Malaysian authorities continued to search in the seas to the east instead of the west of the peninsula. Military radar last recorded the signal at 2:22 a.m. about 200 nautical miles northwest of Butterworth, according to an image of the radar track.

The authorities also failed to move quickly on data that showed the plane continuing to fly nearly seven more hours: a series of regular handshake signals from the plane to a satellite seeking to determine if the aircraft was still in range.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/wo...outine-and-flight-vanish.html?_r=0

So Malaysian Air Traffic Control had the first heads up that MH370 went from a node on the radar with the transponder tag MH370,to a node with no identifiable tag.An unidentified aircraft?.Perhaps they chose not to elevate this to their Superiors?.If they did,then we have a compounding problem.In that Malaysian Air Traffic Control had ample time to figure out that something was 'going down' inasmuch as Flight MH 370 deviated from it's original flight plan into assumed 'cloak mode' all the way across Malaysian Territory from Kota Bharu to Penang.

Someone in the flight-deck has a 'Major Grievance' with the Malaysian Government.

1/ Incredibly bad PR for a Government Owned and Operated Airline Company.

2/ Massive costs for search and recovery.

3/ Huge payouts to the family's involved.

4/ Investigations of Malaysian Air Traffic Control and Governance.


If this plane is in the 'Diamantina Deep' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamantina_Deep' and I suspect that it is, then you are going to need technology that is far in excess of that used with the Air France 447 Crash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447,

For Flight 447 they used the Remus 6000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUV_ABYSS This has a mission depth of 6,000M.

Diamantina Deep http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mons/0/03/Diamantinatopography.svg is in excess of 7,000M. (7 Km) or to put it another way.Take the Burj Khalifa in Dubai,the Tallest Building in the world, and stack it 8 times up into the sky.You now have Diamantina Deep.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Mark2fly1034
Posted 2014-03-24 15:31:34 and read 37722 times.

Lets say that what they find off the cost off Australia is the plane and it has been at drift for 16/17 days now how far away could the black box be? Would it go to the bottom kind of like AF or is there a chance it might be floating as well?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-24 15:36:22 and read 37144 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 169):

I heard the Malaysians won't even interview the family while they're grieving, out of respect.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: chaseus1
Posted 2014-03-24 15:36:52 and read 37187 times.

RIP to those on board. Sometimes the very field of aviation that we love so much makes us so sad.

There were people on that plane that hated to travel, and people that loved to travel. People that hated to fly, and people that loved to fly. And children that may have not even understood what was going on.
May they all Rest in Peace.

And may their loved ones get the answers they need so they may find some peace as well.

[Edited 2014-03-24 15:38:03]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyzapper
Posted 2014-03-24 15:40:13 and read 37591 times.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 174):

A few days ago, I calculated that the debris could have drifted 200-400 miles from the crash site (using oceanographic currents and wind direction). Updating to today's date, 300-500 miles is realistic.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: TheRedBAron
Posted 2014-03-24 15:44:44 and read 37268 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 111):
Check out Qnincy Illinois's annual skydive event that started in 92 and went on for years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0jUus74x9c

D.B. Copper and (IF big IF) they could parachute out of the 777 that was done at night...a whole different animal...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: BackSeater
Posted 2014-03-24 15:47:26 and read 37129 times.

Estimating altitude and climb rate changes west of Penang

One thing that is particularly baffling to me is that the investigators only seem to release incomplete primary radar data: either coordinates without altitude or altitude without coordinates and of course no time stamps.

So using radar horizon calculation, I have attempted to fill some of the gaps.

Yesterday in my post #112 in thread #43, I analyzed the slide entitled "Military radar from Pulau Perak to last plot at 02:22H". I described what I believed to be a climb out starting probably as low as 1,000ft and proceeding through 6,000, then 18,000 and finally 32,000ft when radar contact was lost.

Those valued were inferred from the target going in and out of radar visibility. It is indeed hard to explain otherwise given that a 777 under any angle must have a huge RCS.

Looking at the data further, I suggest that the suddenly weakening radar returns on radial 295 between approx. 36 and 67 nm out are due to the fact that the low rate of climb of MH370 at that point roughly matched the rate of increase of the minimum target altitude for the radar to detect it. Essentially the target was teetering on the edge of visibility for its altitude. I estimate its rate of climb to be arounf 125ft/nm. I know, every pilot speaks about ft/min but I do not want to guess the speed at that point. Let's just say that if its ground speed had been 300kts, the rate of climb should have been around 650ft/min.

Clearly, that rate of climb could not have been maintained the whole time because:
- the airplane once out of radar visibility would not have reappeared later
- the airplane could not have reached 32,000ft 200 miles out.

I therefore estimate that at about 12,000ft, about 142nm from Penang on the radial 295, the rate of climb was probably doubled to about 250ft/nm (maybe in the range of 1,200 to 1,400 ft/min).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: David L
Posted 2014-03-24 15:48:04 and read 36938 times.

Quoting cpw (Reply 46):
I think this is going to be one of the takeaways from this whole event. This investigation is dynamic -- people are learning how to analyze limited data to come to a better understanding of where the plane is, and "fill in the blanks." While at times is may seem like the authorities are changing their story or not releasing data (even though that may have happened on occasion - that's somewhat irrelevant at this point), I think much of the dynamic changes to the common operating picture is due to an evolving understanding of what the data are telling us.

   Precisely.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 172):

That's what accident investigations are for. This one has barely begun.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mffoda
Posted 2014-03-24 15:52:33 and read 36735 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 175):

Quoting mffoda (Reply 169):

I heard the Malaysians won't even interview the family while they're grieving, out of respect.

I can fully understand and support that position.

However, there were reports that the Captains family left their home (or are missing) the day before the disappearance of MH-370. I am only trying to confirm if this is fact or fiction...

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014...kids-the-day-before-disappearance/

Regards,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: antskip
Posted 2014-03-24 15:56:21 and read 36591 times.

The Chinese Government and many relatives of those on board the plane are understandably livid over yet another announcement part-truth, part make-believe, from the Malaysian Government.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/missi...s-executioners-20140325-hvmf6.html

The media is now full of news items saying that everyone on everyone died from this plane - as a fact; as closure; as a piece of brilliant discovery and public disclosure. The announcement contained little evidence for most of its claims. If they have actual evidence of the destruction of the plane and of the demise of every one of the people on it, then they really need to show it now. If they don't have the evidence, why make such claims as if they are at this moment factually supported? Maybe it is yet another attempt by the Malaysian Government personnel to save face - at the expense of both evidential truth and the interests of all other interested parties. Much of what was said yesterday may well turn out to be so - but that will not make yesterday's claims true at the time they were actually said. The Malaysian Government are simply speaking to another agenda, just as they have from the very first night..

[Edited 2014-03-24 15:58:08]

[Edited 2014-03-24 16:18:32]

[Edited 2014-03-24 16:19:46]

[Edited 2014-03-24 16:34:23]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-24 16:04:03 and read 35779 times.

search is suspended today for both sea and air SAR.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 16:04:04 and read 35822 times.

Well the weather decided to join in the mystery, they have just suspended the search

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-24 16:10:03 and read 35505 times.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 125):
"They managed to cover up 9/11 so they try to do the same here. It's all the Americans waging a secret war against China."

WTF^Googolplexplex?

Actually, web browser pilots have to perform memory items when dealing with conspiracy nuts.

1. Explain that a cover-up might cover up a much more heinous crime. For example, 9/11 was perpetrated by the US government to destroy the hidden UFO base the aliens built in floor 96 of the World Trade Center. Ask them if there is any evidence against this theory.

2. Demand evidence that your discussion partner is *not* working for the government or a secret service. Avoid all discussions as long as he or she has not submitted such evidence.

At the moment I'm dealing with people who cannot believe that you could calculate positions from INMARSAT data. It is plausible that both the clocks aboard MH370 and the INMARSAT satellite were synchronized using GPS signals. The old argument from ignorance...


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: valleyflyer
Posted 2014-03-24 16:10:39 and read 35678 times.

The following sentence from the Inmarsat VP makes me think that statistical modelling based on various parameters such as signal strength, time delay, etc. of a large number of flights was used to derive the solution:

"They managed to find a way in which to say just a single ping can be used to say that the plane was both powered up and travelling, and then by a process of elimination comparing it to other known flights established that it went south."

The data must have then fit the southern route very distinctly, given their confidence. Would be a sensible approach, if it provides meaningful results.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Razza74
Posted 2014-03-24 16:18:28 and read 34917 times.

AMSA have suspended search operations today March 25th
https://www.amsa.gov.au/media/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: rcair1
Posted 2014-03-24 16:20:56 and read 34994 times.

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 139):
With the new Inmarsat data, do you think they found a difference in the length of the pings, or was it something else? I read somewhere that the satellite itself moves and that is what they used.

They clearly found a way to do it - and hats off to them. Very good work - and sounds quite innovative.
I do think it was not straight forward - I would love to know how they did it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mffoda
Posted 2014-03-24 16:21:56 and read 34928 times.

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 178):

Quoting mffoda (Reply 111):
Check out Qnincy Illinois's annual skydive event that started in 92 and went on for years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0jUus74x9c

D.B. Copper and (IF big IF) they could parachute out of the 777 that was done at night...a whole different animal...

Hey, hold on there "TheRedBAron"...  

I was merely pointing out that people routinely jumped out jets/ high performance aircraft. I am not suggesting that there was a parachute jump from MH-370. I was only implying that jumping from jets (both military and civilian) has been done for decades.

In the case of DB Cooper, no one really knows what happened to him (except maybe Elvis)?? OTOH, thousands of skydivers successfully managed to survive their jumps from a 727 at the Quincy Illinois annual skydive event.  

Regards,

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: skopsko
Posted 2014-03-24 16:22:06 and read 34843 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 165):

Yeah, I agree. The announcement itself was just very abrupt -- no explanation of how they arrived at the conclusion or how Inmarsat people arrived at it. I think people deserve to know what they discovered and how they came up with that conclusion. They also discount the possibility that there may be potential survivors even if the plane ended up in the water. And if they're so sure that it crashed in the south Indian Ocean, then it shouldn't take too much longer to find the debris, so why not wait a few more days to find the plane and then today's announcement wouldn't even be necessary? Just some very illogical stuff, but then again we don't have enough info to go by.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: capri
Posted 2014-03-24 16:29:44 and read 34411 times.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 190):
Yeah, I agree. The announcement itself was just very abrupt -- no explanation of how they arrived at the conclusion or how Inmarsat people arrived at it. I think people deserve to know what they discovered and how they came up with that conclusion. They also discount the possibility that there may be potential survivors even if the plane ended up in the water. And if they're so sure that it crashed in the south Indian Ocean, then it shouldn't take too much longer to find the debris, so why not wait a few more days to find the plane and then today's announcement wouldn't even be necessary? Just some very illogical stuff, but then again we don't have enough info to go by.

maybe they figured out that with bad weather forcasted there will be no SAR, and decided to come out and just announce it, it really just gets tougher and tougher, and with Autumn in that region, I am not sure how intermittent SAR will be? which will drag more and more days to it

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-24 16:30:12 and read 34448 times.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 190):

They're referring to the next press conference. Today they have just announced that all persons have perished and that the plane, according to INMARSAT data, flew to the Southern Indian Ocean.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: American 767
Posted 2014-03-24 16:58:02 and read 32790 times.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 192):
Today they have just announced that all persons have perished and that the plane, according to INMARSAT data, flew to the Southern Indian Ocean.

Yes, and not close to any suitable landing field for the plane. It flew on a South heading for a while before ditching into the Indian Ocean.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-24 17:01:04 and read 32684 times.



Quoting captainx (Reply 83):
Immersat is saying they assumed 350kt speed. Isn't that rather low?

We don't know if that is IAS, GS or TAS. If it is IAS, at cruise this would not really be low.

Quoting harry1983 (Reply 77):
Quoting captainx (Reply 69):
How would the autopilot respond to all engines running out of fuel? Will it glide at min sink until touchdown?

I would have thought it would have been sophisticated enough to do this, although question if that's the desired behavior, as you're not guaranteed to be over unpopulated area and it's highly unlikely to glide straight onto an awaiting runway.

I guess the AP would just trip off, otherwise it'd stall trying to maintain the set altitude with default behavior.

I recall a thread about this. If hazy memory serves, a Boeing would try to maintain speed. When power is lost, it will pitch down to maintain speed and sink at the commanded speed. An Airbus would try to maintain trajectory. When power is lost, it will pitch up to maintain altitude, slowing down until just above stall speed. Then alpha protection will kick in and the plane will sink at a speed just above stall speed.

As I said, hazy memory so I may have that backwards. Perhaps a driver can clarify.


Quoting damirc (Reply 17):
In regards to the Langkawi theories. The airport was closed, as it is closed each and every day at that time:

http://aip.dca.gov.my/aip%20pdf/AD/A...l.pdf

Closed doesn't mean they put up barriers at the ends of the runway. It just means there are no services and it is illegal to land there. Given enough light to go by, you could still physically land at a closed airport.



Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 174):

Lets say that what they find off the cost off Australia is the plane and it has been at drift for 16/17 days now how far away could the black box be? Would it go to the bottom kind of like AF or is there a chance it might be floating as well?

AFAIK Recorders don't float. Unless they are stuck to a floating piece of debris (highly unlikely), they will have sunk to the bottom.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 179):
One thing that is particularly baffling to me is that the investigators only seem to release incomplete primary radar data: either coordinates without altitude or altitude without coordinates and of course no time stamps.

Primary data is used in air defense so it may simply be that governments are being discreet about military capabilities, or lack thereof.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 190):
The announcement itself was just very abrupt -- no explanation of how they arrived at the conclusion or how Inmarsat people arrived at it. I think people deserve to know what they discovered and how they came up with that conclusion.

I'd wager there will eventually be an article detailing the method published in an industry or academic journal. In due time.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 190):
They also discount the possibility that there may be potential survivors even if the plane ended up in the water.

AFAIK it is rather cold in the area, so even if someone had survived a crash...

[Edited 2014-03-24 17:03:31]

[Edited 2014-03-24 17:04:03]

[Edited 2014-03-24 17:05:47]

[Edited 2014-03-24 17:08:34]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DJM18
Posted 2014-03-24 17:18:25 and read 31676 times.

Quoting MSY-MSP" class="quote" target="_blank">MSY-MSP (Reply 113):
It is a theory that we put together, that fits almost all the facts of the case. One other thought we had that I had forgotten to mention is that it could have been a complete no-win scenario. If the cabin did depressurize and then the engines were not responsive, it could be the choice between high altitude with Hypoxia but keep the plane in once piece or fly low and fast and risk the airframe coming apart.

MSY-MSP: It is great to speculate and it seems as if this is a well put together thesis. However, rather than trying to validate your thesis you should be working hard to invalidate your thesis. In other words, behavioral psychology is such that we are so focused on being right that we only selectively consider the data that fits out theory.

One of the great investors Barry Ritholtz likes to say, do not invest assuming that you are in the right. Instead you should invest assuming that you are wrong, this will motivate you to work harder to uncover the facts that you may have missed. Essentially this is a mechanism to work around our behavioral biases and develop a framework to look at all the data in an objective manner.

Perhaps you are right, but as someone said in an earlier post we will all be proven wrong in one way or another.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 17:18:50 and read 31619 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 194):
Quoting captainx (Reply 83):Immersat is saying they assumed 350kt speed. Isn't that rather low?

We don't know if that is IAS, GS or TAS. If it is IAS, at cruise this would not really be low.

If it's IAS I would think it might be very close to exceeding Vmo no matter what the altitude and Mmo at cruise.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Pihero
Posted 2014-03-24 17:20:16 and read 31656 times.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 172):
The public may have no right to demand information, but it actually is in the interest of governments to release information to the public if it maintains confidence and trust in the safety of commercial aviation.

The safety of Air transport has already been proven bryond any doubt. This accident will not change its statistics in any way.
So that argument is moot.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 172):
If it is the case that the MH 370 accident was caused by something that is exceedingly rare

Whatever the cause, be it man, weather, technical related, an air accident is alwayscaused by a set of factors that is exceedingly rare... so what is new ? I mean other than ghoulish interest and the opportunity to watch the best mystery show ever, while sipping a beer with neighbours ?

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 172):
it's good public relations.

It's only in twisted democracies - or worse autiocracies - that PR becomes important. Far more important is public education. It has, at least, to show a modicum of respect for the citizens. Unfortuinately, politics, and everything else by extension is just a show, exactly the way a lot of the *public* and the media is treating this accident and everything around it. ( The way some have increased their viewership by just bringing a simulator on scene ).

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-24 17:24:23 and read 31410 times.

I am extremely doubtful that the Inmarsat speeds quotes are IAS, since that would require a lot of assumptions and wouldn't be terribly accurate anyway. It is likely GS as that would require the fewest assumptions.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2014-03-24 17:27:59 and read 31310 times.

Quoting DJM18 (Reply 195):
owever, rather than trying to validate your thesis you should be working hard to invalidate your thesis. In other words, behavioral psychology is such that we are so focused on being right that we only selectively consider the data that fits out theory.

      Usually when putting forth an idea, one has that little voice in their head saying "well, the theory has X and Y wrong with it." Instead of telling it to everyone and trying to 'slip one past everyone,' why not keep the theory to yourself and investigate the problems or dump the theory entirely? Or post it while saying what may be wrong, as to not waste everyone's times, and really further the discussion?

Instead, most people have their pet theory and they pick and choose facts that fit it, ignore/downplay evidence that goes against it, and fill in the rest with assumptions. That is how bad conspiracy theories are born

Quoting Pihero (Reply 197):
I mean other than ghoulish interest and the opportunity to watch the best mystery show ever, while sipping a beer with neighbours ?

To potentially save people in the future? And wondering what happened to MH370 makes one ghoulish??

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: photchan
Posted 2014-03-24 17:28:51 and read 31209 times.

With respect to the SAR - are any of the countries using drones with advanced imaging capabilities? I would have thought that with the distances involved, that some of the military drones would be perfectly capable of the range/endurance required for this remote location?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-24 17:42:08 and read 30524 times.

Quoting p51tang (Reply 173):
If this plane is in the 'Diamantina Deep'

I think it is very unlikely that whomever managed to arrange the plane to crash exactly there. By most estimates it simply ran out of fuel. It is too difficult to arrange for the crash to be within a small trench right at the end of endurance. If it was deliberate I also expect that he was not interested in being awake for the entire flight right to the point of impact, nor did he expect a satellite to know where the plane was going, so there would be no need to aim for a particular trench. The immensity of the ocean is simply sufficient and it may well still be sufficient despite the satellite position estimates.

Without those pings it would be impossible to systematically search for the wreckage. It would only be found when it washed up somewhere. No need to put it into a trench.

[Edited 2014-03-24 17:44:24]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mouldypete
Posted 2014-03-24 17:45:50 and read 31117 times.

Interesting article on possible early morning contrail image on satellite on 8th. March.

http://theaviationist.com/2014/03/24/meteosat-mh370-contrails/

Apologies if this has already been posted.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 17:48:39 and read 30614 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 197):
Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 172):The public may have no right to demand information, but it actually is in the interest of governments to release information to the public if it maintains confidence and trust in the safety of commercial aviation.
The safety of Air transport has already been proven bryond any doubt. This accident will not change its statistics in any way.

The lawyers will insist that it's in the interest of governments to release information -- as long as it supports their case.

But one has to wonder if aircraft accident investigations on the scale of this one or AF477 haven't reached a point of severely diminishing returns.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-24 17:54:51 and read 30531 times.

CNN just reported the search has been stopped on Tuesday the 25th Australia time due to bad weather.

http://www.cnn.com/index.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-24 17:55:08 and read 30464 times.

Quoting antskip (Reply 182):
The media is now full of news items saying that everyone on everyone died from this plane - as a fact; as closure; as a piece of brilliant discovery and public disclosure. The announcement contained little evidence for most of its claims. If they have actual evidence of the destruction of the plane and of the demise of every one of the people on it, then they really need to show it now. If they don't have the evidence, why make such claims as if they are at this moment factually supported?

The lines I heard on TV and the text message that was sent to the relatives (the ones that MAS could not contact as there were so many) did not really confirm anything. It basically said something like it is safe to 'assume' that MH370 'went down in the Southern Indian Ocean and there are no survivors'. And, none of the debris have been found or positively identified as belonging to MH370. This statement was released based on new British satellite info that placed the aircraft's final position around that area in which they are searching.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...razak/story-e6frg95x-1226863797199

Maybe the British satellite data is solid enough to confirm that the plane was last in that area so it would have had to have gone down there? Nonetheless, I hope MAS are not getting ahead of themselves yet again without any evidence. Until actual debris from MH370 are found I will still hang on to the idea that it may be elsewhere...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-24 17:55:10 and read 30423 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 203):
But one has to wonder if aircraft accident investigations on the scale of this one or AF477 haven't reached a point of severely diminishing returns.

I don't think we have to wonder. It is astounding that aviation is still becoming safer even today. The investment required for each incremental tiny improvement is massive.

And yet the industry does it.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2014-03-24 18:08:55 and read 29768 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 197):
I mean other than ghoulish interest and the opportunity to watch the best mystery show ever, while sipping a beer with neighbours ?

I must admit that I read the AF447 final report on a long railway journey. It kept my mind busy for hours. I wasn't bored in spite of the seven hours on the train.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 199):
To potentially save people in the future?

One of the Brazilian navy search personnel had a map of the search area on his knees, with the phrase "Que outras possam viver" scribbled on the margin. "That others may live."

To really learn some lessons, one must have passion for the subject at hand, even if the accident reports detail great losses of life. In such a case like AF447 or MH370, I find it hard to distinguish "ghoulish interest" from true passion.

I'm not an aviation professional, but somehow it is a calming and reassuring activity, learning from and understanding such accidents.


David

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: damirc
Posted 2014-03-24 18:18:48 and read 29223 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 194):
Closed doesn't mean they put up barriers at the ends of the runway. It just means there are no services and it is illegal to land there. Given enough light to go by, you could still physically land at a closed airport.

Given that it was dead of the night, no moon over the skies and the runway was not lit it would make absolutely no sense to go for Langkawi. Penang was both closer and open. So this theory is really bad.

D.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-24 18:23:32 and read 28995 times.

Quoting damirc (Reply 208):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 194):
Closed doesn't mean they put up barriers at the ends of the runway. It just means there are no services and it is illegal to land there. Given enough light to go by, you could still physically land at a closed airport.

Given that it was dead of the night, no moon over the skies and the runway was not lit it would make absolutely no sense to go for Langkawi. Penang was both closer and open. So this theory is really bad.

I absolutely agree that the theory is weak. I was just pointing out that a closed airport doesn't mean planes can't physically land there assuming appropriate lighting.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-24 18:38:08 and read 28202 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 209):
I absolutely agree that the theory is weak. I was just pointing out that a closed airport doesn't mean planes can't physically land there assuming appropriate lighting.

It is very weak; a closed airport is the last place a professional pilot would go to make an emergency landing if an open one is within range, as there would be no emergency services - even if he could somehow fit it into an unlit runway on a moonless night.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-24 18:48:21 and read 27724 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 175):
I heard the Malaysians won't even interview the family while they're grieving, out of respect.

No Sir! This time it has been harder to get closer the pilot and co-pilots family but that due to other factors. You can still read stories in local press from other family members.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: lazybones
Posted 2014-03-24 18:50:47 and read 27630 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 194):
We don't know if that is IAS, GS or TAS. If it is IAS, at cruise this would not really be low

Inmarsat knows nothing of the planes indicated airspeed, we would have to assume GS or some Equivalent Airspeed calculation. But it has to be said, either is slow, looks almost like a single engine speed or the last programmed speed was in preparation for an approach somewhere.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Tapir
Posted 2014-03-24 18:52:23 and read 27533 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 210):

There are two or three more airports very near of the east coast. At least one of them with 11K foot runaway.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: WingedMigrator
Posted 2014-03-24 19:40:04 and read 25401 times.

Now that we know the aircraft crashed in the Indian Ocean, I'd like to take a moment to call out all the blowhards who yanked our terrorist chain (from small-time conspiracy theorists to narcissistic flyers with fish all the way up to retired Pentagon brass talking heads and their sources deep within an alphabet soup of agencies). That's right, stand up and be recognized. You knew nothing worth knowing, and you suck.

Conversely, much praise and gratitude is owed to the engineers who unraveled the Inmarsat data.

The clear order of business now is to find the wreck, a task that is shaping up to be far more difficult than AF447, and to learn as much as possible so that others may live.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2014-03-24 19:54:25 and read 24618 times.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 205):
Nonetheless, I hope MAS are not getting ahead of themselves yet again without any evidence.

It is true - I'm not really sure why some are so quick to believe the Malaysian authorities about this, when they've dismissed them about pretty much everything else. I can only guess it's because *this* announcement fits in with the narrative they've constructed for themselves, whereas previous statements by the Malaysians did not.

I will be certain about what happened to this plane when some wreckage is actually recovered. As of now, there remains no physical evidence of anything one way or another.

And assuming wreckage is recovered, we still need to find out what put it in this location, which is certainly no more or less clear right now than it was a week ago.

One thing's for sure - I certainly would not hope for any scenario that involved the passengers living through 7 hours of flight knowing they were probably going to die. I hope it was early, quick and painless for them.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-24 19:59:02 and read 24411 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 215):
It is true - I'm not really sure why some are so quick to believe the Malaysian authorities about this, when they've dismissed them about pretty much everything else.

The information comes from Inmarsat and the AAIB, who I trust completely.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-24 20:02:52 and read 24329 times.

Quoting captainx (Reply 142):
After Indonesia was passed, someone had to enter either a manual heading SOUTH or had to enter a SOUTH waypoint/route. Someone had to be alive to do that. Argues against a mech fault.

Or someone had entered the waypoints... once that's executed, it would continue on the track even if everyone is dead until fuel runs out.

Quoting cat3appr50 (Reply 151):
What is the source/objective data that confirms after being West of Malaysia, past VPG VOR, VAMPI, and MEKAR (I guess that's the current furthest Westward waypoint by radar reported...but who knows, it started out as IGREX, then was MEKAR, and then maybe TOPIN...not sure what waypoint and altitude it might be this week 25000 ft, 12,000 ft. MEKAR, TOPIN, what? )

I don't know how IGREX managed to get into the possibilities, I guess it was a guess based on description, but this was deemed impossible after the radar track was revealed, putting the last waypoint being MEKAR.
I put forward TOPIN and I can say it's only a guess, put in only as a possibility on how to get from MEKAR and reach the 3:11 ping where it is, and then the 4:11 ping... It is of course, only a guess based on calculations and is by no means foolproof. I don't even know if the reported 3:11 ping and 4:11 ping locations are accurate or not as they're not officially released yet... only "estimates" made it to the media.

Quoting cat3appr50 (Reply 151):
in any event what is the source/reasoning that their flight path went direct South (at what seems to be asserted as a line of constant Longitude) with no variation East or West, or that they didn't go further West and then Southeast, after whatever radar waypoint was truly the last waypoint West of Malaysia before turning South for another 4.5-5 hours?

It's only an alternative possibility on "how did it end up down there"... Nothing more, nothing less.

Quoting cat3appr50 (Reply 151):
So hard to follow the logic being reported, let alone the constant change in radar, etc. data being reported

Sift through them one by one, again and again, take what's factual, consider what's reasonable, discard everything else.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 164):
Something about the Malaysian government announcement that the plane is lost and everyone is dead doesn't make sense to me. First, they still have no physical proof of the plane crashed and no bodies have been found so far.

They can only make this based on "reasonable assumption". If there are survivors on liferafts, we should have heard by now, and their on-raft ELTs should have been turned on. Now 1 week on a lifevest is the only other possibility of survival... now 2 weeks? Extremely unlikely.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 164):
that you can't believe it's just an "accident" and that they'd fly south to "nowhere" do just dump the plane.

What would you say if at the end of the day, that was the final conclusion?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 168):
This is the clearest, easiest to understand explanation about the *pings* :

Ah, Tom Farrar... one of the best guys to talk to about satcom. Had lots of nice discussions with him... including on MH370.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 168):
But the public has absolutely no right to demand that these be released. The Malaysian government is of a sovereign country and who are we, we and our arrogance to demand it ?

The Malaysian government is now in that "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 170):
The Inmarsat-3 series were build by Lockheed Martin Astro Space

Thanks! I knew it wasn't Loral, so I thought it was Boeing... Silly me!

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-24 20:10:16 and read 24000 times.

Seems like Australian Military has a press conference scheduled 12am est. Malaysians have a press conference at 12:30am est. Aus military rarely have press conferences according to journalist on CNN.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: TheRedBAron
Posted 2014-03-24 20:11:02 and read 23953 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 189):
Hey, hold on there "TheRedBAron"...  

Point taken and I agree, that you can jump from a 727 at day and with prep, DB cooper did not, I always have visaged him counting ONE Mississippi TWO Mississippi etc to know when to pull the release... LOL

Back to topic...

Finally some closure for the families, but the whole ordeal was handled badly and its not over... what a tragedy, may their souls rest in peace ..

TRB

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: hivue
Posted 2014-03-24 20:19:13 and read 23578 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 201):
I think it is very unlikely that whomever managed to arrange the plane to crash exactly there.

You can put just a lat and long into an FMS right? And the plane will fly to that point?

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: MH772
Posted 2014-03-24 20:22:26 and read 23486 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 210):
Quoting Tapir (Reply 213):

I agree with you folks. As much as Mr Goodfellow's suggestion makes sense, since the disappearance occurred, I've always wondered why MH370 just didn't dump its fuel in the Gulf of Thailand and land in Kuala Terengganu if the plane was 120nm from Kota Bharu. I believe WMKN has the facilities and runway to cater to large aircraft as MH used to land 744s at this airport during the Hajj travel period.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-24 20:26:57 and read 23351 times.

Maybe it is just patchy journalism but Malaysia appears to have started to mention "psychological issues" in "passengers or crew" for the first time as one of the possible scenarios.

Previously they would itemise the scenarios as mechanical issues or hijacking. Now they say "psychological issues" whilst simultaneously signalling that any conclusion of the police investigations might take six months or more (read: endless).

I would imagine they are prepping for the possibility of delaying blurring and deferring for as long as possible, ideally forever, any conclusion that their own pilot is most likely to be the responsible party, if indeed things continue to fall that way. I could see for as long as there is even a remote possibility of another explanation, Malaysia will state flatly that MH370 is fundamentally unsolved.

[Edited 2014-03-24 20:27:49]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-24 20:35:17 and read 22962 times.

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 216):
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 215):
It is true - I'm not really sure why some are so quick to believe the Malaysian authorities about this, when they've dismissed them about pretty much everything else.

The information comes from Inmarsat and the AAIB, who I trust completely.

It did, and nobody is questioning the credibility of Immarsat or the AAIB, but until debris related to MH370 are found... Nobody is questioning the information passed on to MH, but rather the statements by the Malaysian PM and MAS that only 'assume' that the plane went down in that area. I will wait until debris are found to believe that with 100% but, with the little evidence so far such as Immarsat data (which was apparently decoded in some kind of new technique?) , that is looking like what happened - it just cannot be confirmed yet. If it proves to be false then several people in high places will have egg all over their faces and saving face is important in that part of the world...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-24 20:35:45 and read 23084 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 220):
You can put just a lat and long into an FMS right? And the plane will fly to that point?

The ocean is vast, there's no need to aim for a particular trench in the ocean, but... yes, you can just put a lat-lon position into the FMS.
You can program it to crash in whatever heading you want too... Just get the track planned to where you want to crash, and do it in a direction you want to crash... then... keep the aircraft on LNAV... OK, how do you crash it? Set altimeter to something ridiculous, and put a low altitude on the vertical constraint on the waypoint. Select an altitude lower that that on the autopilot altitude selector, don't press anything. Let the aircraft do the most efficient VNAV descent into your death...

Yes, it's sick... but airplanes are airplanes... as advanced as airplanes are these days, you can't stop pilots from flying them into mountains, let alone intentionally! So what makes the sea any different?

*So why aren't we hearing advocates of "autopilots should be made so that you can't crash the plane" bandwagon?*

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-24 20:43:31 and read 22639 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 218):
Seems like Australian Military has a press conference scheduled 12am est. Malaysians have a press conference at 12:30am est. Aus military rarely have press conferences according to journalist on CNN.

I am not seeing anything about this anywhere; do you have a link?

If this is true, I would appreciate a link to a live feed from somewhere if someone has it. I was able to watch the Malaysian PM presser live on CTVNews.ca, but there does not seem to be any indication that they will be broadcasting any press conferences live.

Life without cable has its downsides.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Lindenwold
Posted 2014-03-24 20:44:31 and read 22708 times.

Expecting big news from Australian Defense Minister in 17 mins. Keep in mind they took pics from the plane yesterday.

[Edited 2014-03-24 20:45:15]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: nupogodi
Posted 2014-03-24 20:45:47 and read 22924 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 224):
*So why aren't we hearing advocates of "autopilots should be made so that you can't crash the plane" bandwagon?*

That's basically what I said when people were suggesting that turning off the transponder and such shouldn't be possible. I believe what I said was, "Yes and we should also remove the yoke/sidestick and throttles since those can be used to crash the aircraft."

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2014-03-24 20:48:49 and read 22943 times.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 214):
ish all the way up to retired Pentagon brass talking heads and their sources deep within an alphabet soup of agencies). That's right, stand up and be recognized. You knew nothing worth knowing, and you suck.

Yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one that was annoyed. You don't have to connect every single bad event in the world to Al Qaeda, Islam and Israel etc. What the point is of wildly speculating like that on FoxNews when basically there is no information behind it whatsoever? I didn't see these wild and crazy conspiracy theories in mainstream foreign press, just here on Fox and CNN.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 179):
I therefore estimate that at about 12,000ft, about 142nm from Penang on the radial 295, the rate of climb was probably doubled to about 250ft/nm (maybe in the range of 1,200 to 1,400 ft/min).

That's pretty steep for a 777. I cannot imagine anyone doing that in radio silence unless they had bad intentions.

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 174):

Lets say that what they find off the cost off Australia is the plane and it has been at drift for 16/17 days now how far away could the black box be? Would it go to the bottom kind of like AF or is there a chance it might be floating as well?

The Orange box should sink. Its mostly steel. I suppose if part of the hull had a air pocket it could stay afloat for a while but not 16 days in rough seas. They showed some footage from a boat in that region and it looks nasty. Worse than the north Atlantic. I do wonder though if someone had survived, how long they'd last. Not more than 5-10 hours I think. Whats strange is the large size of the debris on the satellite pictures. It made me think the plane made a soft landing on water with a lot of it still intact.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: p51tang
Posted 2014-03-24 20:55:45 and read 22736 times.

Quoting jelliesR (Reply 201):

I think it is very unlikely that whomever managed to arrange the plane to crash exactly there. By most estimates it simply ran out of fuel. It is too difficult to arrange for the crash to be within a small trench right at the end of endurance. If it was deliberate I also expect that he was not interested in being awake for the entire flight right to the point of impact, nor did he expect a satellite to know where the plane was going, so there would be no need to aim for a particular trench. The immensity of the ocean is simply sufficient and it may well still be sufficient despite the satellite position estimates.

Perhaps.But anyone with enough intent to fly it approx 4,000 km in the opposite direction,must know
that ditching the aircraft in 4,000m vs 8,000m means a vast difference in (investigation time,technological resources and money).

I also found this:

Quote:
Here is my fictional account of the tragedy, based on the information provided over the last several days. As I sit here trying to make sense of the information that seems to change daily, I believe that something along these lines is the only reasonable explanation. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families that lost loved ones and have been forever changed because of this tragedy, and I mean no disrespect with my narrative.
http://www.reddit.com/r/MH370/commen...m026/my_theory_about_flight_mh370/



Visual Representation: http://www.reddit.com/r/MH370/commen...representation_detailing_a_theory/
inclusive of Link: http://imgur.com/a/ROy9o


Captain Shah wearing t-shirt: Democracy is Dead http://www.insideedition.com/images/stories/1403/7963.jpg


Final Jigsaw piece: http://www.reddit.com/r/MH370/commen...370_anwar_now_admits_capt_zaharie/


The above information that I submit, is not that of mine, but from someone who calls himself FrequentFlyerPilot (apparently he has clocked up 2 million miles and his friends joked with him that the Airline Company should have given him a pilots uniform).

I do however, hold the same opinion that this incident was caused by someone in the Flight Deck.More likely than not,that of Captain Shah.


Personal Quote P51tang: My condolences to the family's of Flight MH370,especially to the two New Zealanders that lost their lives in this tragedy.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: 777Jet
Posted 2014-03-24 20:55:57 and read 22731 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 226):
Expecting big news from Australian Defense Minister in 17 mins. Keep in mind they took pics from the plane yesterday.

I'm watching ABC24 now. It should be shown live on that channel. I'll post any new info.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyawa
Posted 2014-03-24 21:05:41 and read 22307 times.

I read Capt747ret's theory on part 40, reply 122, and agree with his scenario, which is just as much likely as any other. I also suggest that the pilot may very well have set the southerly heading on autopilot, and then took some sort of medication that allows you to fall into a deep sleep or even die, and that was it until the fuel ran out.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: mandala499
Posted 2014-03-24 21:06:50 and read 22284 times.

Quoting p51tang (Reply 229):
Visual Representation: http://www.reddit.com/r/MH370/commen...representation_detailing_a_theory/
inclusive of Link: http://imgur.com/a/ROy9o

The flightpath they used prior to military radar end of detection is out of date. IGREX has been ruled out effectively.
It's IGARI-VPG-VAMPI-MERAK...

Quoting p51tang (Reply 229):
I do however, hold the same opinion that this incident was caused by someone in the Flight Deck.More likely than not,that of Captain Shah.

OK, so spoilt kid FO which a history of rules being broken (not just the girls visiting the cockpit) and a nagging "wife of an important person" mother is out of the question"?
I better tell my pilot friends to hide their simulators then coz if anything happens to them on duty (God Forbid), people will blame them for having a simulator and therefore must have practiced dodgy stuff with bad intentions on them! No matter if their co-pilots shot them prior to taking over the aircraft, they will be blamed because of having a simulator! (add the politics afterwards too)... If only you know the behaviour of 'some' 777 FOs in MH of various sorts.. (this guy included)...

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-24 21:17:42 and read 21625 times.

Quoting Lindenwold (Reply 226):
Expecting big news from Australian Defense Minister in 17 mins. Keep in mind they took pics from the plane yesterday.

The Australian Defence Minister is now speaking at the RAAF Base, Pearce, Western Australia, being televised on ABC News 24.

For those with access, the online link is http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: AR385
Posted 2014-03-24 21:22:28 and read 21211 times.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 233):
The Australian Defence Minister is now speaking at the RAAF Base, Pearce, Western Australia, being televised on ABC News 24.

What a letdown. Not much said of any relevance that could have been issued with a written statement.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-24 21:25:53 and read 21035 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 234):
What a letdown. Not much said of any relevance that could have been issued with a written statement.

I agree. There has been nothing new announced.

It just seems like an opportunity too answer some journalists' questions, and these questions seem fairly superficial.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-24 21:27:24 and read 21026 times.

Basically praising the search crews.... I bet the Malaysian Airlines news conference is going to be very explosive and mostly damage control.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: NAV30
Posted 2014-03-24 21:41:29 and read 20243 times.

Basically the Minister was just 'ass-covering' since there are 30-foot swells and high winds in the search area today - so pretty well all the search aircraft are grounded until conditions moderate.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Dalavia
Posted 2014-03-24 21:43:10 and read 20108 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 236):

Basically praising the search crews.... I bet the Malaysian Airlines news conference is going to be very explosive and mostly damage control.

So far it has emphasised the care being provided by MH to the passengers' families, and appreciation to the team of investigators.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: flyenthu
Posted 2014-03-24 21:56:12 and read 19542 times.

Quoting flyawa (Reply 231):
I also suggest that the pilot may very well have set the southerly heading on autopilot, and then took some sort of medication that allows you to fall into a deep sleep or even die, and that was it until the fuel ran out.

Just wondering about the pax- really feel awful even bringing this up. Would they have gotten an inking about what was going on if they were conscious? This may have been gone over earlier, could the airphones (backseat) also be turned off from the cockpit? No calls from those either while it was all unfolding.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-24 22:01:21 and read 19586 times.

CNN:

"Malaysia Airlines has offered family members $5,000 for each passenger on Flight 370, preparing to make additional payments."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/25/world/...malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: jcxroberts
Posted 2014-03-24 22:03:26 and read 19350 times.

There is still no evidence from their personal lives that the pilots were mass murders, yet people keep harping on it because mechanical failure is 'impossible'.

I think you should have a pretty high threshold of evidence before accusing someone of killing 200 + people.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: rj777
Posted 2014-03-24 22:04:17 and read 19375 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 240):
"Malaysia Airlines has offered family members $5,000 for each passenger on Flight 370, preparing to make additional payments."

2 words: CASH SETTLEMENT. They're trying to keep their behinds out of court. But I don't think that it's going to work.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-24 22:16:57 and read 18706 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 242):
2 words: CASH SETTLEMENT. They're trying to keep their behinds out of court. But I don't think that it's going to work.

I think they are trying to do what they can to make it right, but I think they will need to give a lot more than that no matter what the cause of the accident was. I agree with you that they will probably go to court and I am thinking something like a class action lawsuit. Unfortunately, I cannot help but think Boeing will be taken to court as well, even if there was no mechanical failure.

Quoting jcxroberts (Reply 241):


I agree with you 100 percent.

I think the Malaysian government said it crashed to offer some closure to the families, but I do not think that will happen until debris and the black boxes are found and analyzed. I also think they did it due to the discovery of what officials believe is debris of the 777 in the Indian Ocean. I will not believe, though, it is 777 debris until a human see it from a ship, up close. So far all we have are pictures from a satellite, which are now relatively old, and images from a person who took them from a plane. I think by the time the search starts again, the pieces will for sure have moved and probably by a lot as well, given the wave size.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: antskip
Posted 2014-03-24 22:24:15 and read 18606 times.

The Australian Minister of Defence has it right: "positive identification of any debris won't happen for at least 24 hours, and until then 'everything is virtually speculation'." http://www.straitstimes.com/
Take note, Malaysian Government and all those media outlets that announced as if a fact that everyone died! Unless they are hiding a great deal from us all, they do not yet know where exactly the plane hit the water; no debris has yet been positively identified, and no individual, let alone everyone, has yet been identified as being dead.

[Edited 2014-03-24 22:56:18]

[Edited 2014-03-24 22:56:54]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: jelliesR
Posted 2014-03-24 22:27:02 and read 18509 times.

based on reading this:

https://www.informs.org/ORMS-Today/Public-Articles/August-Volume-38-Number-4/In-Search-of-Air-France-Flight-447

I think they won't find the wreckage, and therefore the black box  

AF447 was a mere 38nm north of the last known position, basically where they expected it to be, given they had 290 seconds of flight time uncertainty area. Even so the process of finding the objects required a lot of careful sonar scans. And the ULBs did not function, or were not detected, even though the passive acoustic detection passed right over the wreckage. The debris was found with side-sonar scan.

The circle of uncertainty for the impact point of MH370 is HUGE -- and won't get much smaller when they analyse surface debris - given the fortnight that has passed.

[Edited 2014-03-24 22:34:03]

[Edited 2014-03-24 22:38:29]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2014-03-24 22:55:45 and read 17310 times.

Quoting antskip (Reply 244):
The Australian Minister of Defence has it right: "positive identification of any debris won't happen for at least 24 hours, and until then 'everything is virtually speculation'." http://www.straitstimes.com/
Take note, Malaysian Government and all those media outlets that announced as if a fact that the plane crashed and everyone died!

The plane crashed, and everyone died.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: antskip
Posted 2014-03-24 23:00:11 and read 16964 times.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 246):
The plane crashed, and everyone died.

That may well be the case, but being right is not the same as having evidence to prove it. Until then, it is speculation that could well be right; could be wrong. Empirical science depends on actual specific evidence. Being right is not good enough.

[Edited 2014-03-24 23:03:34]

[Edited 2014-03-24 23:05:40]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: TheCommodore
Posted 2014-03-24 23:00:55 and read 17058 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 240):
"Malaysia Airlines has offered family members $5,000 for each passenger on Flight 370, preparing to make additional payments."
Quoting rj777 (Reply 242):
2 words: CASH SETTLEMENT. They're trying to keep their behinds out of court. But I don't think that it's going to work.

Insurers have already started making payments to MH 5 days ago.

With much more to come.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/flight-m...-missing-plane-20140320-hvksx.html

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 243):
I cannot help but think Boeing will be taken to court as well, even if there was no mechanical failure.

I doubt that could happen in this country, especially since no direct evidence of any soiled sort,has yet been attributed to an aircraft defect of failure of the Boeing 777

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: laxboeingman
Posted 2014-03-24 23:08:20 and read 16765 times.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 248):
doubt that could happen in this country, especially since no direct evidence of any soiled sort,has yet been attributed to an aircraft defect of failure of the Boeing 777
OK, thank you for the insight.

Quoting antskip (Reply 247):
That may well be the case, but being right is not the same as having evidence to prove it. Until then, it is speculation that could well be right; could be wrong. Empirical science depends on actual specific evidence. Being right is not good enough.

I agree with you 100 percent. For all we know, that debris could be from a ship.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 246):
The plane crashed, and everyone died.

We do not know that for a fact and we should try to stay as positive as we can. I know some aviation enthusiasts who refuse to believe it is down until they actually find parts of a plane. Until then, to them, the plane could be on an island somewhere where all the people are alive.

[Edited 2014-03-24 23:11:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: ExpatExp
Posted 2014-03-25 00:33:33 and read 14212 times.

Quote:
Real time data is well within the achievable, but it is not without cost. Is it worth adding US$0.50 to every single ticket in order to solve the one crash in over thirty years that so far has no physical evidence a month or two faster?
Quote:
ACARS on a real high usage package is about $0.50 per message, if you're a stingy user on a stingy allowance program, it's $5 per message on a good day. This excludes satcom volume costs.

I was encouraged by an interview with Inmarsat's SVP for External Affairs, which indicated that hourly position updates are possible now for a cost of approximately US$1.00 per hour of flight. Even if he were underestimating by half, on such a large aircraft, that would work out to be roughly less than US$0.01 per person per hour of flight. Given such low costs, I'd imagine that we'll see a lot of talk in the coming weeks and months about mandating this kind of reporting.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 181):
There were reports that the Captains family left their home (or are missing) the day before the disappearance of MH-370. I am only trying to confirm if this is fact or fiction...

I recall that this was reported and addressed a number of threads ago. I don't remember exactly what happened, but it was found to be nothing unusual (IIRC they were not actually missing).

(Sorry I can't work out from the help pages how to quote from the earlier, closed threads.)

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: rolfen
Posted 2014-03-25 00:41:56 and read 13995 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 96):
Short version: Inmarsat, the company operating the satellites that received the "pings" from the airplane (which were just that - pings, with no information contained about the location of the plane) crunched some data, compared with the data generated by other MAS 777 flights the last few weeks, crunched some more data, and then came up with a location (well, a certain area) from which the last "ping" was received.

They probably used the timestamps of these pings... I am assuming that all pings were recorded by satellites, along with timestamps with millisecond precision, and they used timestamps from several satellites to triangulate the position, and used timestamps from communication with other aircraft on known paths for synchronization.

This or something else... I'd like to know anyway, and hear more about how they found this location, in more details.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-25 01:02:34 and read 13502 times.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 250):
Quoting anfromme (Reply 96):
Short version: Inmarsat, the company operating the satellites that received the "pings" from the airplane (which were just that - pings, with no information contained about the location of the plane) crunched some data, compared with the data generated by other MAS 777 flights the last few weeks, crunched some more data, and then came up with a location (well, a certain area) from which the last "ping" was received.

They probably used the timestamps of these pings... I am assuming that all pings were recorded by satellites, along with timestamps with millisecond precision, and they used timestamps from several satellites to triangulate the position, and used timestamps from communication with other aircraft on known paths for synchronization.

This or something else... I'd like to know anyway, and hear more about how they found this location, in more details.

According to Chris McLaughlin, senior vice president of external affairs at Inmarsat.

“Just a single ‘ping’ can be used to say the plane was both powered up and travelling. And then by a process of elimination comparing it to other known flights and established that it went south.”

As I understand it, the boffins analysed the Doppler pattern of all the different signals from all the different aircraft to come up with a pattern consistent with the southerly arc.

Sources:
- http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh370-se...plane-was-lost-20140325-hvme8.html
- http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201...-location-found-by-comparing-pings

[Edited 2014-03-25 01:03:05]

[Edited 2014-03-25 01:31:23]

[Edited 2014-03-25 01:31:37]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2014-03-25 01:30:25 and read 12727 times.

I am so heartbroken by all of this. Especially for the families whom we see on the news.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 239):
CNN:

"Malaysia Airlines has offered family members $5,000 for each passenger on Flight 370, preparing to make additional payments."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/25/world/...malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html

Horribly insulting. They probably know that for a family to retain a lawyer is going to be in the $3-5,000+ range, just to start. There's going to be a few lawyers looking on contingency at this.

I wouldn't accept anything less than $10 million USD in a negligence fatality lawsuit. A life is worth at least $10 million USD. I'd rather just lose in court and walk away broken.

I hope that none of them accept this hush money. If a reason to sue becomes evident later, they shouldn't sign anything in the mean time that would prevent them from doing so.

Corporations at their worst.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2014-03-25 01:39:28 and read 12472 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 253):

I am so heartbroken by all of this. Especially for the families whom we see on the news.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 239):
CNN:

"Malaysia Airlines has offered family members $5,000 for each passenger on Flight 370, preparing to make additional payments."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/25/world/...malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html

Horribly insulting. They probably know that for a family to retain a lawyer is going to be in the $3-5,000+ range, just to start. There's going to be a few lawyers looking on contingency at this.

I wouldn't accept anything less than $10 million USD in a negligence fatality lawsuit. A life is worth at least $10 million USD. I'd rather just lose in court and walk away broken.

I hope that none of them accept this hush money. If a reason to sue becomes evident later, they shouldn't sign anything in the mean time that would prevent them from doing so.

Corporations at their worst.

Nowhere does it say anything about hush money or this money being contingent on no further claims being made. Even in the quote you made, it says they are "preparing to make additional payments".

I doubt MH thinks this will be the only compensation payment. However larger payments will take time. This payment will allow families to make funeral arrangements and compensate them for the time off work and other costs they have incurred in the past few weeks. It takes care of the immediate needs of the families and tides them over for a bit while MH, the aviation authority and the insurance companies work on the final compensation package they want to offer.

This can actually be seen as a good will gesture helping families. Legally speaking, it is possible that MH does not need to pay a penny until the investigation concludes.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2014-03-25 01:41:59 and read 12400 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 254):
Nowhere does it say anything about hush money or this money being contingent on no further claims being made. Even in the quote you made, it says they are "preparing to make additional payments".

I doubt MH thinks this will be the only compensation payment. However larger payments will take time. This payment will allow families to make funeral arrangements and compensate them for the time off work and other costs they have incurred in the past few weeks. It takes care of the immediate needs of the families and tides them over for a bit while MH, the aviation authority and the insurance companies work on the final compensation package they want to offer.

This can actually be seen as a good will gesture helping families. Legally speaking, it is possible that MH does not need to pay a penny until the investigation concludes.

It's hush money. You'd be a fool to accept this. Strings are attached.

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: SA7700
Posted 2014-03-25 01:47:06 and read 12513 times.

Due to length this thread will be locked down for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 45 which is available here:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)


Thanks and regards,

SA7700

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: blueshamu330s
Posted 2014-03-25 01:50:01 and read 12115 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 255):
It's hush money. You'd be a fool to accept this. Strings are attached.

It is not hush money.

It is a subsistence payment to assist grieving relatives with immediate costs.

The word "compensation" has yet to be mentioned, but it has already been stated by MAS that they acknowledge their obligations in that regard. I recall one article mentioning a minimum of $150,000.

Malaysian would be foolish to preempt the legal process.

Rgds

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: ba1978
Posted 2014-03-25 02:16:48 and read 11502 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 255):

I believe these are ex-gratia payments that were initially offered to relatives a few weeks back to cover expenses they may have incurred. These are by no means compensatory payments for the fatalities.

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79579550/

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: p51tang
Posted 2014-03-25 02:51:35 and read 11244 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 223):
The ocean is vast, there's no need to aim for a particular trench in the ocean, but... yes, you can just put a lat-lon position into the FMS.
You can program it to crash in whatever heading you want too... Just get the track planned to where you want to crash, and do it in a direction you want to crash... then... keep the aircraft on LNAV... OK, how do you crash it? Set altimeter to something ridiculous, and put a low altitude on the vertical constraint on the waypoint. Select an altitude lower that that on the autopilot altitude selector, don't press anything. Let the aircraft do the most efficient VNAV descent into your death...

So if I enter desired Lat/Lon into FMS, then enter into the Altimeter 45,000ft, and enter 5,000ft as the Vertical Restraint on the waypoint,then enter 1,000ft into the Autopilot Altitude Selector,leave it as is.

Do I pass mandala499 training?  

Footnote: Just trying to understand how the zombie aircraft scenario from the Strait of Malacca would work?.Not that I buy into that scenario.I prefer to stick with the fully manned option right to the very end,inclusive of nose dive into ocean.

It's got much more 'internal emotional anger' associated with it.

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:52:48]

Topic: RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44
Username: anfromme
Posted 2014-03-25 04:42:47 and read 10381 times.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 248):
We do not know that for a fact and we should try to stay as positive as we can. I know some aviation enthusiasts who refuse to believe it is down until they actually find parts of a plane. Until then, to them, the plane could be on an island somewhere where all the people are alive.

That's exactly why you would make an announcement like they did yesterday.
Because that's a false hope.
There are many planes that crashed without any wreckage ever being found; let's be realistic: they didn't all land on some island with all or even some of the people still alive, but unable to contact anybody for years or even decades.

We have a plane that went missing over two weeks ago, with no sign from anybody on board since. We know it flew on for about 7 hours after it went drastically off course. We also now know - given the analysis from Inmarsat and the AAIB - that it flew along the "South corridor", which means its last position, with fuel for about 30-60 minutes of flight left, was about two hours' flight away from any land to even crash-land a 777.

Based on this, announcing that the plane was lost with all lives on board means we can finally start accepting this tragic loss of life.
There's still plenty left to do in finding the wreckage and determining what exactly happened that led to this disaster.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 253):
Horribly insulting. They probably know that for a family to retain a lawyer is going to be in the $3-5,000+ range, just to start. There's going to be a few lawyers looking on contingency at this.

I wouldn't accept anything less than $10 million USD in a negligence fatality lawsuit.

Without going into what sum you put against a life, you're making some bold statements here, considering that no negligence (let alone gross negligence) has been proven against anybody so far, as we don't even know what exactly happened.


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