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Topic: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Bobcat
Posted 2002-06-09 16:14:34 and read 4731 times.

Is the A380 useless for US airlines? What are the chances of ever seeing A380s in the US?(operated by US airlines)

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2002-06-09 16:29:40 and read 4650 times.

Useless is a strong word, the A380 does not really suit most US airlines since the US carriers are much more focused on hubs and frequency. For example, assuming landing slots permitted, a US carrier would rather fly two 777s per day between a hub and Tokyo than one A380 - this way they can offer more connection possibilities and better departure/arrival times for more customers. This is why huge airlines like DL, AA and CO do not have the 747 in their fleets, so stepping up to an A380 with even more seats does not seem likely.

In the future, when air traffic grows quickly again, we may see airlines like NW and UA taking another look at the A380 for specific routes, like the West Coast to Japan, the Far East and Australia. I do not see any US carrier ordering the A380 in large numbers, but a conservative order is possible for select routes where time zones limit the range of dep/arrival times, where airport access is limited, or for competition reasons.

No airline, worldwide, has yet ordered a huge number of the A380......its big and its expensive and airlines must be conservative in these difficult times, but in the long run I think the A380 will be a success.

And, dont forget, FedEx will be an A380 operator, so even if you cannot fly on one, your packages can.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Frequentflier
Posted 2002-06-09 17:20:15 and read 4617 times.

In my opinion, A380s will never become mainstream in the US, but will still be seen with 2 airlines in particular: United and NW. Both of these airlines have large hubs outside of the country, and directly compete with the committed A380 carriers (Virgin, Singapore, etc.)

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Singapore_Air
Posted 2002-06-09 17:20:22 and read 4618 times.

Domestically yes. 4 727s = 1 A380 = not good as US pax like convenience of timing.

Internationally, a possible oversaturation on transatlantic routes?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Sjc>sfo
Posted 2002-06-09 17:51:56 and read 4585 times.

I agree with the above. The only place I really see the addition of the A380 to US fleets is with United and Northwest. And that makes sense because they are the only US majors even flying the 747 right now. CO,AA, and DL are all going with the 777 which gives them range, cargo capacity, and frequency, and are all easier to fill than a 747.

I would expect we'd see the A380 reach the US on routes like West Coast- Asia (heavily dominated by UA, and from the midwest by NW) and its possible we might see it on routes like LAX-LHR or SFO-LHR.

We also might see NW stick one or two on the DTW-AMS routing.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: A388
Posted 2002-06-09 18:01:01 and read 4579 times.

I agree with Dutchjet and can't add much more. US airlines focus more on frequency and their hubs. Even though the major US airlines are on the list of top airlines like Singapore Airlines, Qantas, Cathay Pacific Airways, they have different strategies, like more frequencies rather than larger capacities. I expect United Airlines and Northwest Airlines to order/lease the A380 after 2010. I don't see the other major US airlines flying the A380 as the 777 is the ideal aircraft for them for the coming years.

Dutchjet has earnt a place as a respected user on my list. Very good view on the aviation. Are you an airline manager by any chance Dutchjet? You seem to know a lot about the aviation. I'm looking forward to see more good stories from you. I also live in the Netherlands by the way  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Regards,

A388

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Twaneedsnohelp
Posted 2002-06-09 18:15:27 and read 4559 times.

fine, so the big question if US airlines are so focused on "convenience and timing" as nearly every poster has said, why aren't the European and Asian ones, who are buying this mammoth bird?

tnnh

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Singapore_Air
Posted 2002-06-09 18:23:28 and read 4546 times.

TNNH who doesn't like SIA and their ground service: Because Asians aren't that timey, so as to say they do not have planes landing at 1518 etc.. In addition, flight to and from SIN and SFO/LAX for example are daily flights, not 20 - 40 a day like LAX - SFO or JFK - West Coast for example.

As for the €uropeans, same for LH and AF. They fly to Asia and the US daily, occasionally twice daily.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: STT757
Posted 2002-06-09 18:32:40 and read 4548 times.

There's no airline outside the US with more than one major hub,

BA-LHR
AF-CDG
NH-NRT/HND
JL-NRT/HND
LH-FRA
KLM-AMS
SQ-SIN

American carriers

AA-ORD,DFW,MIA,STL,SJC
UA-DEN, ORD, SFO, LAX, IAD
CO-IAH, EWR, CLE
DL-ATL, CVG
NW-DTW,MSP
U-PHL,PIT,CLT

When a airline like BA or AF serves NRT they only have one routing LHR-NRT or CDG-NRT, under such a system larger aircraft less frequencies are better than multiple aircraft multiple frequencies.

Now when a US carrier flies to NRT they usualy offer more than one routing,

AA-
ORD-NRT, DFW-NRT, JFK-NRT,SJC-NRT
UA_
ORD-NRT, LAX-NRT, SFO-NRT

etc ..

So US carriers because of their larger hub system can offer more frequencies then say European carriers for the sole reason of they have more routings, more options for travelers. In the US if a traveler in the Mid-West wants to go to Europe they don't have to fly to JFK, they have many local choices. If that same person wants to go to Japan they don't have to connect in SFO, they can fly localy from DTW, ORD, DFW etc.

If a British business traveler wants to fly to Asia there's only one option, fly out of LHR. French have to fly out of CDG etc.

The old days of Pan Am where all European flights were funneled through JFK and all Asian flights were funneled through SFO and all Latin America flights were funneled through MIA supported large fleets of 747s. Today the market is much different.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Manni
Posted 2002-06-09 18:59:49 and read 4507 times.

STT757,

There are airlines outside the US with more than one major hub.

LH FRA/MUC
NH NRT/KIX
QF SYD/MEL
SA JNB/CPT
AI DEL/BOM
AZ LIN/FCO
...


Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Arsenal@LHR
Posted 2002-06-09 19:20:08 and read 4491 times.

I wouldn't use the word "useless", but at the moment it is not top priority for US airlines to buy a ultra long range high capacity plane. Like it's been mentioned before, for the likes of CO, DL and AA, the 777 is big enough and perfect for their operations. Since UA and NW are large Airbus customers, i expect them to pick up a handful of A380's in the future once the industry is back to it's best and where demand warrants it.

Rdgs
Arsenal@LHR

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Greg
Posted 2002-06-09 21:35:46 and read 4431 times.

I imagine UA and NW could you some for Asia.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: AC340
Posted 2002-06-09 22:58:17 and read 4388 times.

Air Canada has 3 hubs, YYZ, YUL and YVR. None of those are in the States.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Ivo
Posted 2002-06-09 22:58:30 and read 4385 times.

Dutchjet,

Emirates: 22 x A380. Not a huge order?

Ivo

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Rick767
Posted 2002-06-09 23:18:53 and read 4371 times.

Useless - no, likely to be purchased in big numbers - no. As others have said, several hubs and high frequencies are the backbone of US air travel.

Asia routes, however, could use em. Watch this space, I'd forecast a handful at least.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Bobcat
Posted 2002-06-09 23:31:57 and read 4358 times.

what exactly does Emirates have in mind when placing 22 firm orders for the A380s? At least they also selected GE and P&W engines for their A380s... Are these engines built in the U.S.?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Hardkor
Posted 2002-06-09 23:39:03 and read 4349 times.

do any of you know if Air Canada would be interested in the A380 at all? I would think not, I don't think there would be much use for the A380 with the sixe of our population, it just wouldn't make sense

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2002-06-09 23:42:08 and read 4343 times.

To Ivo, you are right, the Emeriates order for 22 A380s, in my opinion, is extraordinary; I am not sure what they have in mind but I wish them luck and success. Is the order for 22 now confirmed, or is the first group (about 10) confirmed with the rest still to be negoitiated?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: TimeForFlight
Posted 2002-06-10 08:01:22 and read 4220 times.

Emirates is smart... I guarantee they will pull a profit with every one of those A380s, especially around Hajj time. Muslims must send at least 1 family members to the Hajj (a yearly event in Mecca) to fulfill religious duties as deemed by the Koran. The airport serving Mecca is literally one major paved surface with a very small terminal. 99% of the time it's relatively empty, but when the Hajj comes each year the tarmac is packed with flights. Emirates will put the A380s on Hajj routes and I'm sure can easily create a combi aircraft to funnel both passengers and crago into their route network. 22 A380s? Sure - It was a great choice for them!

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Aq737
Posted 2002-06-10 08:13:01 and read 4206 times.

No, AC would see the 380 useless...if they don;t want any more 744s, and want to phase them in the next year, why the bigger one?? As for the 380 in the US, i doubt it. All the carriers don't need it. The only routes the 380 could be used on would be LAX/SFO - SIN/NRT/KIX...UA and NW don;t need it either because their 747s are enough. Even though them may be close to capacity, there is no need for the 380s. Plus, with a limited amount of routes, it is not economical. For example, you can't just operate a daily LAX-NRT and remain profitable. You need to be like DL and have a ATL-LGW-ATL-MIA-ATL thing (intermideate route ATL-MIA-ATL) to use the time. Remember that the aircraft makes $$ only when in the air! For Europe, frequency is needed for all those business passengers. 767s 4x daily JFK-LHR or 777 2/3x daily is better then 1 380! For S.America and Africa - no need/yields
Mahalo,
Aq737
P.S. By the way, Haneda is HAN... Big grin

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Na
Posted 2002-06-10 09:00:43 and read 4179 times.

All of you thinking US airlines don´t need Superjumbos think traffic will not grow anymore, right?

If the estimated 100% increase in air travel will happen within one decade or so even AA and the like will find it hard not buy something bigger than they fly now. Around 2010 it might be the only chance to fly a A380 rather than a 777 to offer more attractive fares than the competition.

National pride is a serious factor. To buy the flagship of the commercial "enemy" is something else than ordering a fleet of low interest A320s. When it comes to replace top-of-the-line aircraft for UA and NW its more likely to me that their choice will be a new 747 version (with more efficient engines).

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Aviasian
Posted 2002-06-10 13:12:29 and read 4123 times.

While I generally agree with the many opinions expressed above, I wish to clarify some others:

STT757 : British business travellers heading to Asia have been using Manchester for quite a while already. There are daily flights from there to Asia by a handful of Asian carriers such as Malaysia Airlines, Singapore Airlines etc.

TimeForFlight : Muslim families don't have to send one family member a year to the Haj. Every Muslim is encouraged to perform the Haj pilgrimage "once in a lifetime" if he/she could afford it. Emirates is not going to make a profit dedicating the A380 for Haj traffic . . . and parking it in the desert for ten months out of twelve.

Singapore Airlines currently flies three times daily from Singapore to London-Heathrow. It definitely could use even more capacity for most parts of the year. It is unlikely to be granted further frequencies, certainly not slots that are attractive enough. The A380 would allow it to increase capacity significantly without any increase in frequencies.

Qantas Airways must surely be aiming to put this big bird on the Sydney/Melbourne to London route.

KC Sim
Bangkok

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Adria
Posted 2002-06-10 16:13:42 and read 4055 times.

The Airbus A380 will be the most revolutionary aircraft when it comes into service in 2006. In this fight Boeing is one step behind

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 16:26:48 and read 4041 times.

The thing I don't understand about the Emirates order is that if they have a need for that many A380's--why don't they have a single 744 today? (Notwithstanding the freighter from Atlas Air) It seems like they would at least lease a few 744 until their A380s arrive. Do you guys see what I mean?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Greg
Posted 2002-06-10 16:27:23 and read 4039 times.

Airbus admits its a 'evolution' not a 'revolution.' It's a fantastic piece of metal and plastic, but it will not change transportation as we know it.

There will be some revolutionary composite pieces in her constuction--but she's basically an 'existing technology' aircraft. Even the seat mile costs are evolutionary...fully 12% of the 17% savings is in increased seating..not in new technology. My source is Airbus.

I'm very excited to see them start production.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Capt.Picard
Posted 2002-06-10 16:40:16 and read 4029 times.

I'd also like to know why Emirates hasn't any 744s in its fleet (as opposed, or in addition to the 777s and A330s).

Is it something to do with route structure, or the fact that Emirates never envisioned its traffic increasing so dramatically, at the time of its Boeing and Airbus fleet orders?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Racko
Posted 2002-06-10 17:00:34 and read 4001 times.

I think Emirates is more a toy of it's government, than really a serious company. Not only they ordered over 20 A380s, they also ordered tons of 777s and A330s. I really can't see them filling all these planes, not even with the government support they get.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Arsenal@LHR
Posted 2002-06-10 17:25:48 and read 3984 times.

The reason why Emirates ordered 22 A380's is simple: EK market research predicts Emirates passeneger numbers will triple in 10 years time, therefore the A380 is ideal for this, also EK has the A330 in it's fleet already. EK could easily fill a 744 or A380 to LHR now like capt.picard mentioned, emirates route structure is suited to multiple frequencies. i.e. 2 777's and an A330 to LHR each day instead of 1 A380/744 daily. Although i must say, politics may also play a part in aircraft acquisition.

Arsenal@LHR

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 17:37:48 and read 3976 times.

Arsenal@LHR, If traffic will triple in 10 years- it must be building fast right now. It would make sense to me given the numbers you provided that they would be operating multiple 744s until they receive their A380s. The 744 is cheaper than the 773 to purchase and has more seats. Whatever...good luck to them.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Wingman
Posted 2002-06-10 17:42:30 and read 3970 times.

The Emirates order has nothing to do with realistic forecasting or financial modeling. This is about a man who has found the world's most expensive toy and wants to make sure he has more of them than anyone else. Emirates won't make money with this plane because of a single annual pilgrimage. To be profitable with this plane you'd have to fill all 22 of them to 480+ people every single day 365 days a year. The great thing for Emirates is that it doesn't matter, they could lost $250M per year for 50 years in a row and the owner would still have another $10B as firestarter money.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 17:47:23 and read 3964 times.

I'm glad the UAE, unlike a few of its neighbors, has focused on things other than puritanical religion. If that means them spending absurd amounts on aircraft- so be it.

I was under the impression that Emirates actually very well managed and profitable. Am I wrong?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Capt.Picard
Posted 2002-06-10 17:56:19 and read 3953 times.

I have heard Racko's type of argument before; Maurice Flanagan rejected such claims, insisting people ought to check their facts before screaming about the UAE giving Emirates free money......Emirates is managed responsibly, and let me tell you something--I've flown their planes a number of times... *AND THEY ARE PACKED*, they can't expand fast enough....

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2002-06-10 17:56:36 and read 3951 times.

Other than those to be used in a freighter role, the A380 will not have much call for by U.S. carriers than those in other parts of the world. Other than the FedEx order, the only potential customer for the cargo version is Atlas Air, and the possibly of them ordering even a few is up in the air with the shakeup in the air cargo market post-9/11. I agree with those who feel that United and Northwest could be potential customers down the road, especially since they currently do have Airbus aircraft in their fleets. I think they will wait to order them (as will any other prospective U.S. carriers) until after the plane has been in pax service for a few years, just so that the kinks will be worked out by then. But the real question is would their hubs that have Int'l flights be able to handle several A380s on the ground at once? This is the question facing all of the airlines that intend to operate the aircraft are facing right now, so I think UAL and NWA are waiting to see how these airlines handle the operational aspects of the A380 before ordering.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Arsenal@LHR
Posted 2002-06-10 18:06:49 and read 3937 times.

Capt.Picard is spot on again.

Another reason why EK aren't operating multiple 744's right now is because of slot constrainsts. Emirates cannot expand at LHR due to the difficulty in acquiring slot at LHR. Plus EK wants to add a 2nd daily CDG-DXB flight but they cannot due to the french govt saying no. EK would prefer multiple frequencies than 1 single flight per day with a mass people carrier now. 2 777's to CDG is prefered than 1 A380. Not to mention Emirates is booming at the moment, they are expanding faster than most airlines.

Arsenal@LHR

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 18:13:00 and read 3931 times.

Arsenal@LHR, That does not make sense. If you are slot-constrained, you would operate the largest jet possible- the 744 at the moment. The argument with CDG similarly does not make sense.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Capt.Picard
Posted 2002-06-10 18:23:47 and read 3921 times.

I'm not sure how I got into this Arsenal, but anyway, some info on Emirates's performance and activities:

1/ Emirates cut costs by 5% in response to a 5% fall in traffic immediately after 11 September, but did so without making staff redundant, although it did freeze recruitment.

2/ Liquid cash reserves almost doubled over the year to 3.4 billion dirham, after a successful bond issue last July. Managing director Maurice Flanagan says that, although traffic from Europe fell sharply after 11 September, the airline has since largely recovered.

3/ Strong passenger growth drove revenues up 11.7% to 7.3 billion dirham, giving net profits 11% higher at 468 million dirham.


4/ Oh, and concerning rumours over EK and state subsidies, I quote Maurice Flanagan, EK Manager:



"We have become wearily accustomed to one or two self-proclaimed experts in our industry declaring publicly that, of course, Emirates could not possibly achieve consistently profitable results without some form of hidden subsidy, despite our publication of transparent audited annual accounts......

......more serious now, however, is the possible effect on governments of such ill-informed allegations, implying as they do that Emirates has an unfair advantage over other national carriers."

The world isn't so simple....

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Arsenal@LHR
Posted 2002-06-10 18:32:55 and read 3902 times.

What i'm trying to say is that airlines like EK would prefer to operate multiple flights instead of using just 1 big jet like A380/747. I used CDG and LHR as two examples of where emirates would like to add frequencies instead of using a large aircraft but cannot do so. But it's true, slot restrictions should mean using bigger planes but some airlines prefer otherwise.

Arsenal@LHR

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Sllevin
Posted 2002-06-10 18:40:58 and read 3893 times.

Emirates order is quite significant. I believe that EK feels they're covered in two ways:

1) Traffic really does triple and they need the capacity

or

2) They will have 22 early delivery positions when the A380 finally rolls out and they should be able to "lay off" aircraft to other airlines.

EK has the resources to be both airlines and a major leasing player, if they opt to go in that direction.

Steve

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 19:42:53 and read 3855 times.

I think Sllevin is correct. They are rolling some big dice with twenty-two of the A380 jets though. Even half of the total would be a lot to place with lessees since the 380 will be at the top end of capacity. I think that segment of the market is ultra-sensitive to passenger demand. Also, if Emirates (the booming carrier that it is) cannot fill up those planes in some future situation, then who else would? The pool of potential leasing customers is small.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Capt.Picard
Posted 2002-06-10 19:50:13 and read 3841 times.

Valid thoughts, which I agree with; BUT, we don't yet know how many pax the A380 will carry *in Emirates's configuration*. It may be the standard 3-class thing, but Emirates might want to do more, thereby reducing the numbers slightly.

Still, I agree, 22 is a big number. But then I was absolutely shocked when I head the Qatar A380 order....

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: QatarAirways
Posted 2002-06-10 20:16:53 and read 3823 times.

Capt.Picard

"Valid thoughts, which I agree with; BUT, we don't yet know how many pax the A380 will carry *in Emirates's configuration*. It may be the standard 3-class thing, but Emirates might want to do more, thereby reducing the numbers slightly."

Actually Capt.Picard EK's A380s will have on average more seats than other airlines that have ordered the A380s. According to the member Emirates777 they will also have 2 class configuration on some of the A380s. Qatar Airways will have a smaller number of seats than the other airlines that ordered the A380. QR will only have 468 seats and will have the amneties that were mentioned by airbus such as a shopping area and a bar on board.

"But then I was absolutely shocked when I head the Qatar A380 order...."

You will not be shocked anymore when you hear that QR is growing by 40% annually and a coservative growth forecast by an aviation consultation firm has estimated double-digit growth for at least 8-10 more years. QR are actually growing twice as fast as EK and at even half their present growth they will fly 6 times as much passengers in 2007 when the first A380 arrives. That would mean QR would need the A380 in the next 3 rather than 5 years especially to LHR where 2 of the A380s will go and Asia where the other two will fly. If QR doesn't order the A380 then their expansion plans especially to LHR will face some tough hurdles.

Oh and my opinion on EK and the A380s, I don't see EK having any problems with the A380s. Unlike what people think the Dubai government is not stupid. The Emirate will run out of oil soon and is already importing gas because they can't produce enough for themselves meaning that Dubai needs to look into other sources of income and not other places to waste money and so I think that the A380 order is a wise decision and they definitly have put a lot of thougt into this.

Regards,
QatarAirways
Aviation Gulf Discussions

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Udo
Posted 2002-06-10 20:22:51 and read 3814 times.

People are talking loads of crap about Emirates and don't even know where the United Arab Emirates actually are...
Some of you should take the time and check Emirates' development and expansion in its short time of existence before talking bull. They enjoy high load factors, they have to upgrade their fleet due to demand and not just for fun. Just look at their London routes, three daily flights into LHR, one of them operated by B773. And they just have introduced a second daily LGW service...just for fun?

Dubai's oil reserves won't last forever, so do you think these people down there are dumb and waste their money? Wow, what an example of stupidity and ignorance...


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 20:31:49 and read 3802 times.

QatarAirways,
Those are interesting points. You obviously know your stuff about these airlines. But given these numbers, why wouldn't these guys obtain 744s as a stopgap until the A380s arrive? It seems to me that they could sell every seat on these aircraft. There are plenty available and are relatively inexpensive to obtain in the current market. They could even get them on short term leases. It seems like a logical transition step for aircraft that are growing into the A380 segment. What is your opinion?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: QatarAirways
Posted 2002-06-10 20:44:18 and read 3788 times.

Getting the 744 will be useless for both Qatar Airways and EK. Both EK and QR would have to go through the costs of introducing a new type to the fleet which will only stay for a few years. Also EK already has an aircraft with a high capacity, the 434 seat 777-300 which has a higher capacity than many of the 747-400 operating for other airlines and QR will soon order 300 seater aircraft which are a good step towards the A380.
Another problem with short-term leases is the quality of product. QR would have to outfit the B747-400 with the expensive First/Business class seats because QR won't want to use the seats that came from with the used 747-400. The seats will be tailor made for the B747-400 and will not be usable on other aircraft in the fleet meaning millions of Dollars would have to be spend on getting the aircraft upto standards and then when the B747-400s leave the seats will be wasted and the costs would be unjustifiable. I also believe QR won't need the 747s just yet, but maybe in 2005 and so they will only have the 744s for 2 years (in 2007 the A380 will arrive) meaning QR would have to go through sky-high costs for introducing a new type which doesn't fit into their all-airbus fleet and then let go of that type in 2 years wasting valuable company resources.

Regards,
QatarAirways

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 20:51:38 and read 3783 times.

Fair enough. Thanks for the analysis and answer.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 21:15:48 and read 3760 times.

I think eventually that NWA will purchase the 380. They are already slated to receive widebody 330s. It won't be a defection like if UA bought them. I think UA will wait and see once they get their finances together.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2002-06-10 22:59:33 and read 3723 times.

I'll be brief.  Smile

The A-380 will see use from many international flag carriers, but U.S. carriers really don't have much of a use for it, save for FedEx. Overall, the market would seem to bear a total production of perhaps 200-300 aircraft total. Not a failure by any means, but not the numbers Airbus Industrie would like to see.

And Aq737, Haneda's code is HND, not HAN.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: N79969
Posted 2002-06-10 23:17:09 and read 3708 times.

The A380 is ahead of its time in terms of size. An aircraft of that size will not become necessary on a widespread basis until the middle or end of the next decade. That is when the growth in air travel will be sufficient to really let that plane sell.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: David_itl
Posted 2002-06-10 23:28:25 and read 3698 times.


Udo, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. Add in the MAN & BHX services which are "full", and you end up with 7 aircraft leaving the UK every day on Emirates to DXB. Not bad expansion from a single daily A310 service to LGW when I think they began UK operations 14 years ago. I'm also expecting the 2nd MAN service to be announced within the next 6 to 12 months.

Capt. Picard, some of us know what they are provisionally configuring the A380 for but can confirm what QatarAirways says about low and high density A380s. Suffice to say passenger capacity is going to be more than the 777-300 high-density ones they have  Wink/being sarcastic. (And the answer to the question on the GO names thread is that I am sad, sad, person that stashes avaition URLs in my head instead of enhancing linguistic skills!).

David/MAN

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: TimeForFlight
Posted 2002-06-10 23:34:43 and read 3687 times.

Aviasian, I did not say that Muslim families had to send one family member a year to the Hajj. Hajjis are usually once in a lifetime attendees. And no, Emirates wouldn't park those aircraft for 10 months. They can easily carry cargo in their worldwide operations with the aircraft. You completely misread my post...
Regards.
Isaac

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: HUYfan
Posted 2002-06-11 00:04:22 and read 3674 times.

all this talk of emirates not being able to employ their 380s when they come on line is absolute rubbish! the following routes are IDEAL for the 380 and would operate FULL if the 380 was introduced.

DXB-BKK-HKG
DXB-SIN-SYD(LIKELY TO BECOME NON STOP WHEN THE 345s ARRIVE)
DXB-SIN-MEL(")
DXB-KHI
DXB-BOM
DXB-CMB
DXB-DAC
DXB-KUL-JKT
DXB-JED
DXB-CAI
DXB-LHR
DXB-CDG
DXB-FRA
DXB-JNB
DXB-BAH
DXB-DOH

and i'm sure there are even more than that. Emirates will NOT have a problem filling those big bastards!

regards

mike

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Donder10
Posted 2002-06-11 00:12:54 and read 3660 times.

Picard,
no 744s due to commanaliy.The 773 has similar capacity to the 744 and keeps alot of commonality to the 772.Maybe some pilot pool too ,I'm not sure.
EK dont pay landing fees in DXB I believe which definitely helps.Don't think they pay full price for fuel either.
Regarding Asia-it is likely that point2point will account for a higher% of passengers in future years.I'm not sure what trade barriers are like in intra-Asia aviation but consolidation will occur at some point

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Capt.Picard
Posted 2002-06-11 00:32:40 and read 3652 times.

Ok, thanks guys, for the explanations, a really good thread, this one.

Cheers

p.s. QatarAirways, I meant no offence to QR, I guess their emergence from a marginal airline to their present and future form has been rapid and dramatic--I suspect many don't even know the capital of Qatar, let alone its geographical position....Doha  Big grin

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Boeing nut
Posted 2002-06-11 03:49:45 and read 3577 times.

To answer the question...... useless indeed is too strong a word. However, as some have said already, it just wouldn't fit into the US sytem very well. United is scaling back on aircraft size right now, and Northwest's biggest bird is the 744 of course, and probably won't go bigger. for now. And that ladies and gentlemen is the point. For now, traffic in the US just won't support the A380. In ten years? Who knows?

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Greg
Posted 2002-06-11 04:10:03 and read 3563 times.

I think Airbus has made it clear that the initial A380 will be one that carriers will 'grow' into.
With a modest capacity increase of 4%/annum...the 380 will be a very valid selection for many carriers in 8-10 years.

Interesting note....EK mentioned that they would have considered the 380-900 if available since demand will dictate it's use by 2010.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Reggaebird
Posted 2002-06-11 05:26:14 and read 3534 times.


The sophisticated American flyer went through the "bigger is better" phase back in the 1970's. They now know that the best way to travel is point to point and to regional airports which bypass the megahubs at major international airports. The rest of the world will catch up in 20 or 30 years.

As for Emirates, I believe that I know why they have made this huge investment in equipment. They plan to become "the airline of the Middle East"! They will feed passengers into DXB on those A330's and 777's from many of the Arab and Asian countries that can't afford good equipment or have horrible service. These passengers will look to Emirates as many people looked at BOAC and Pan American in the past.....super-mega-ultra carriers with the best planes, the best service, the best reputation and, most importantly for the status conscious people from that part of the world, the PRESTIGE.

More power to Emirates' management for being smart enough to position the company so well for the future.



Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: Joni
Posted 2002-06-11 13:02:14 and read 3496 times.


Reggaebird,

There is by no means a certainty that the non-US market will migrate to smaller planes and more remote destinations, or that the US market won't return to parger planes in the fututure. In Asia, for example, populations are more concentrated in megacities, which supports using large planes and trunk routes.

Also, in the future there is a large likelyhood that air traffic will face emissions taxes, which will further increase the price advantage larger planes enjoy over smaller ones.

Presently, the US majors with their fleets of smaller, point-to-point services are drawing on massive subsidies to avert, or at least delay, enormous bankruptcies. It isn't clear that overseas, presently more healthy carriers will try to emulate their business models.

Topic: RE: Is The A380 Useless For US Airlines?
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2002-06-11 14:56:30 and read 3455 times.

I don't think UA will buy the A380-800 anytime soon. After all, they already got a big enough plane for US West Coast to Asia services, namely the 747-400.

That's why UA will most likely continue to base most of the 744's at SFO and LAX. With UA having mini-hub status at NRT (and possibly ICN once Asiana joins Star Alliance starting in 2003), UA will just fly more 744 flights across the Pacific as the demand warrants. It's possible we might see two things that UA might do to their 744 fleet down the road: a possible re-engining program and a complete interior upgrade to a 777-like interior.




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