Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/953492/

Topic: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Keesje
Posted 2002-10-28 13:14:07 and read 2431 times.

LONDON (AFX) - British Airways PLC has made a last-ditch attempt to halt an aviation deal with the US by warning Prime Minister Tony Blair that the move would jeopardise thousands of UK jobs ..

"Letting them in now will expose us to cut-throat competition and open the door to them steadily increasing their presence at Heathrow," he added.


Not a sign of power, is it ?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bailey


http://library.northernlight.com/MB20021027790000012.html?cb=0&dx=1006&sc=0#doc

Is BA 's strenght dependent on limited competition on LHR ?

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Ikarus
Posted 2002-10-28 13:19:32 and read 2410 times.

"Letting them in now will expose us to cut-throat competition and open the door to them steadily increasing their presence at Heathrow"

Ummmm, where are the disadvantages in that? Big grin

But I don't think Heathrow could possibly accomodate that many new slots - at least not for a few years. So the threat is rather overexaggerated (unless BA were to be forced to give up some of their slots)

Regards

Ikarus

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Arsenal@LHR
Posted 2002-10-28 15:29:44 and read 2323 times.

BA said the company believes the best way forward is a general liberalisation negotiated between the European Union and US. Privately, senior executives are bitterly opposed to the proposed deal with the US.

I don't understand this, why does BA think the EU will have BA interests at heart regarding open skies when the UK government is much more likely to do a deal which might favour BA more than a deal thrashed out by the EU?

Arsenal@LHR

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Singapore_Air
Posted 2002-10-28 16:48:44 and read 2270 times.

"This is absolutely the wrong time to be doing this. American airlines have been the recipients of massive amounts of state aid in the wake of September 11 and we have had next to nothing,” a senior executive said.

“Letting them in now will expose us to cut-throat competition and open the door to them steadily increasing their presence at Heathrow.”

That they have had to resort to this just shows how utterly desperate they are,” retorted the head of government affairs at one American carrier.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-459416,00.html

Hmm. Well though I disagree completely, I also completely understand why they would not want anyone else going into LHR like Singapore Airlines who have indeed already been granted rights to fly from LHR to the USA from the U.S. government a few years ago.

It's nothing new, and nothing illogical.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Donder10
Posted 2002-10-28 16:59:12 and read 2254 times.

Didn't one of the other EU majors complain about US carriers using the federal compensation for not being able to fly around Sep11 to flood the market with cheap fares?

''I also completely understand why they would not want anyone else going into LHR like Singapore Airlines who have indeed already been granted rights to fly from LHR to the USA from the U.S. government a few years ago. ''
Like you said, its not illogical.


unless BA were to be forced to give up some of their slots)
I guess that would be the case again.The UK+US should agree on both side's carriers having an equal number of slots at LHR perhaps excluding cargo.Cargo will never work as well at LHR as CDG etc,so will have to wait for Cliffe before it increases dramatically.However,only a 3rd proper runway will lead to a substantial in overall airport slots.Maybe the 2 sides could come to an agreement about implementing open skies slowly with a 3rd runway in mind.


Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Singapore_Air
Posted 2002-10-28 18:41:36 and read 2196 times.

"so will have to wait for Cliffe"

And who says there will be an airport there?

I also fail to see how a 3rd runway will substantially expand LHR without more terminal space...unless the plan is to make tarmac the new terminal 6 (or 5, whatver)

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Eg777er
Posted 2002-10-28 18:49:43 and read 2187 times.

Essentially, what BA are worried about is the US carriers undercutting BA across the Atlantic, supporting these routes with revenue gained elsewhere.

BA makes pretty much 100% of its profit on the North Atlantic. Carriers such as CO, NW and US don't. Consequently, if BA gets into a fare war, CO, NW and US can use their revenue from other areas to continually undercut BA. BA would be forced to respond, and its revenues would be decimated.

As far as I'm concerned, business is about the pursuit of a monopoly: the elimination of competition. This move was entirely expected from BA.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2002-10-28 18:54:48 and read 2187 times.

BA makes pretty much 100% of its profit on the North Atlantic.

And you would be pretty much 100% incorrect about that. The North Atlantic provides a huge chunk of REVENUE, but is by no means the most profitable region for BA by a long shot.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Artsyman
Posted 2002-10-28 19:35:04 and read 2153 times.

BA makes pretty much 100% of its profit on the North Atlantic. Carriers such as CO, NW and US don't.

This couldnt be further from the truth, The only place Continental made profit was across the North Atlantic. They would not be looking to make money from other sources to subsidise this.

The interesting point to make is that BA and AA are the ones who have been pushing for the open skies more than anyone else, this way they can more or less merge and sell tickets on each other, share ground crew etc. BA wants to have access to everything in the USA but doesnt want to give up anything in return.

Right now, AA, UAL and BA control the traffic from US destinations to LHR and basically the US gov says unless you relax your monopoly on that, then you cannot get more of the pie.

BA is right though, if DL, CO, US and Northwest get access to LHR, they would get hammered, open competition reduces fares

Jeremy

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Donder10
Posted 2002-10-28 19:38:09 and read 2152 times.

And who says there will be an airport there?
The government you love so much have pretty much said so lol.

I also fail to see how a 3rd runway will substantially expand LHR without more terminal space...unless the plan is to make tarmac the new terminal 6 (or 5, whatver)

Terminal5 will significantly add to the terminal and gate space and T6 may happen too.We still need another airport though to supplement or to eventually replace LHR.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Eg777er
Posted 2002-10-28 20:17:41 and read 2134 times.

OK.........firmly shot out of the water on that one. Think I was probably working from 1996 figures!

That said, BA stand to loose a lot from more competition on LHR-USA services. They are simply trying to protect their position.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: PW100
Posted 2002-10-28 21:17:27 and read 2093 times.

Eg777er
BA stand to loose a lot from more competition on LHR-USA services. They are simply trying to protect their position.
You could not have said it more accurately. However the likes of LH, AF and KL [which all operate under open-skies, and do have to weather the us-giants unlike BA] don't really seem to suffer from this.

The problem for BA is that there are huge benefits in open-skies for them if they can increase the number of flights from their hub airport, and getting a descent hub-operation going. However since LHR is already operating at max capacity, or better the max capacity it is allowed to operate [LHR does not do simultaneous parallel approaches/departures in mixed mode], there is no gain for BA. BA simply does not have sufficient number of aircraft movements to get a nice hub operation going. Look at AF[CDG], LH[FRA], KL[AMS]. These carriers today operate 350-500 daily departures from their hub. Hubs which all have the potential to grow to 120+ movements per hour [CDG is there already, AMS will be there next year, and FRA is planning for 120 by 2007]. Where is LHR...70 movements per hour? Where will it be by 2007... 72 movements per hour?

So UK government has tried, and in fact is still trying to protect BA from competition because the government itself dramatically failed to get the proper airport-infrastructure in place to put BA in a competitive European position, compared to the likes of AF/LH/KL! The UK government has manoeuvred itself in a position that they require 19th and early 20th century outdated tactics in order to maintain BA competitive in the 21st century. Meanwhile, alliances are growing and growing, and the only looser in the end will be the UK [and possibly AA].

The worst thing that could happen to AMS/KL is closure of LHR and a new 4-6 runway airport serving London. The second worst thing would be a third parallel runway at LHR, although I don't really see this as politically acceptable given the number of protests and years of planning it took/will take to build T5. For god sake its only a terminal, to be built on a sewer dump!!!
Terminals don't bring noise and pollution, runways do...!!! I really don't see how you would be able to get another runway at LHR if it took you 10+ years to pass the planning stages for T5!

AMS being my home airport, [sarcasm on now...] I'd say come on UK government, maintain the deadlock at LHR and don't build a new airport. Please let BA suffer from this total lack of infrastructure [sarcasm now turned off...].
It will be interesting [understatement of the year] to learn how your government is going to handle the SE runway situation and Bermuda II......

PW100

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: David_itl
Posted 2002-10-28 21:38:54 and read 2066 times.

PW100

LHR is not as low as that for movements...it's a little bit busier! This study shows they averaged 1215 movements in a day (16 hours)during summer 1999 which equates to 78 per hour. Perhaps we could be talking something like 80 or so an hour now.

Forget long timescales for runway planning as I believe that future nationally important projects will not go through as rigourous a public enquiry as T5 did.

David

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Donder10
Posted 2002-10-28 23:27:30 and read 2030 times.

Here's hoping David!
Was there a lot of hassle in getting your second runway?

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: David_itl
Posted 2002-10-29 00:23:30 and read 2019 times.

Alex

Planning application was in July 1993, the enquiry lasted from June 1994 to March 1995 with the go-ahead being announced in January 1997 (the 15th I believe...when we had a fair number of diversions from LHR & LGW) with a further 5 years from cutting the 1st sod* to finally opening it in February 2002. So all told, ours took 8.5 years.

Moot point it being the 2nd one as we did have 3 runways during World War 2, and then 2 runways until Pier C was constructed circa 1967-1970. However, there were tentative plans for a parallel runway in 1974 but withdrawn shortly afterwards, with a resubmitted plan in 1976 which was abandoned in 1978 until such times as demand warranted it.

Reference points:
1974 = 2.4 million pax
1978 = 3.5 million pax
1985 = 6.2 million pax
1988 = 10.0 million pax
1993 = 13.4 million pax
1997 = 16.2 million pax
2001 = 18.5 million pax

* And I don't mean "Swampy"!

David

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Donder10
Posted 2002-10-29 00:33:32 and read 1994 times.

Pretty swift then! Big grinAny further news on EZY moving to LPL?Certainly would help push the numbers up a bit more.Also,do you know the latest on Finningley's planning request?
Funny with all the talk of a 3rd LHR runway when we have technically have 3 now(if not a minute 4th North of 27R/9L)!

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: STT757
Posted 2002-10-29 01:08:39 and read 1978 times.

"BA is right though, if DL, CO, US and Northwest get access to LHR, they would get hammered, open competition reduces fares"

BA is just a bunch of chickens, look what LH has done in Germany. Germany was dominated by Pan Am, TWA and later DL. Also CO,NW, UAL, US etc all launched flights in the last ten years to Germany.

LH kicked their butts, CO dropped EWR-MUC and EWR-DUS, DL pretty much abondoned their FRA hub.

LH was not afraid of the big bad 6 US carriers, they fought them 6-1 and pretty much have come out on top.

BA has no balls, they cry and cry about how they cannot compete.

How do they know, they have not even tried.


Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Blink182
Posted 2002-10-29 01:58:51 and read 1962 times.

If the rest of the US airlines gain LHR access, than you simply have to let AA/BA go through. Also, I don't think LHR can accomodate anymore flights. That airport is packed to the brim.

blink

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: BHXviscount
Posted 2002-10-29 02:06:18 and read 1951 times.

Donder10- which airport would you have as supplement to LHR? Closing LHR is madness!

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: 747firstclass
Posted 2002-10-29 02:50:44 and read 1929 times.

Blink182, there has never ever been a problem with the US side. If LHR is opened to all US carriers via an openskies and guaranteed slots for the new airlines to start LHR-USA service, AA/BA will get US antitrust immunity. Just like AF/DL, KL/NW, DL/AX, UA/LH. Simple as that.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: 747firstclass
Posted 2002-10-29 04:29:34 and read 1885 times.

PW100
Very, very, very well stated. Very articulate. if the powers that be in Ba and the UK had that kind of vision, things would not be in the deplorable state they are in regarding LHR and Bermuda II

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Donder10
Posted 2002-10-29 12:15:01 and read 1805 times.

Donder10- which airport would you have as supplement to LHR? Closing LHR is madness!
I agree dude!But its looking increasingly likely epsecially with 'night flights'looking to be be stopped quite soon.

Blink182, there has never ever been a problem with the US side.
Fly America,cabotage etc

Looks now that the only result will be a total US-EU OpenSkies which BA supports.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: David_itl
Posted 2002-10-29 13:16:37 and read 1790 times.


Alex

No news on more easyJet at LPL, nor on the FYY front. Anyway.. I looked at my post and made a very stupid point..the 2nd runway opened in 2001 (how could I forget!? Perhaps it was the earth tremor from last night affecting my head?) Embarrassment

Blink 182, there are ways and means of getting slots (perhaps some airlines may approach other airlines and "buy" slots, with the other airline shifting to LGW) and we know that bmi are most likely going to reduce frequency on some routes to provide the slots for their transatlantic routes.

David

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Donder10
Posted 2002-10-29 14:33:47 and read 1791 times.

BA have bought the slots of Balkan,Croatia Airlines and (Avianaca?)recently so perhaps thinking ahead to Open Skies?

How many tremors,quakes etc have you had up there Wow!?

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: 747firstclass
Posted 2002-10-29 14:42:21 and read 1758 times.

If the US gave cabotage rights to BA, along with dropping Fly America, and increased the onwereship rights from 25% to 49% or 51% or more and gave BA/AA antitrust approval and as a result there was US/UK openskies, where would all the slots come from the US carriers? So, my opinion is that BA and UK are throwing road block after road block in to the mess to keep things operating like it is the 19th century.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: 747firstclass
Posted 2002-10-29 14:47:50 and read 1750 times.

PS Forgot to mention that in the US no foreign airline has paid as much as one cent for any slot at any US airport. It will be totally unacceptable for any US carrier to buy slots at LHR when openskies finally happens. Somehow, some way the UK govt. or somone will have to guarantee the slots when the time comes. As it has been stated, the operations per hour at LHR are far, far below what a modern day civilized airport, in the 21st century, can handle. Lastly, using 2 runways at a time will provide additional slots.

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: David_itl
Posted 2002-10-29 14:49:21 and read 1748 times.


Another 2 airlines that were at LHR and are now at LGW are Lithuanian Airlines and Adria Airlines. There won't be many of the "East European" airlines left at LHR for airlines to buy their slots! Where do VS get their slots from? Do they just go after the spare slots so that they can then claim some kind of grandfather rights?

__

With the "official" three since yesterday afternoon, it's now 60 in 8 days (strangely enough, we only had 1 at the weekend but we did have Mother Nature doing something else!). There are ones that we can feel but have not yet been reported! Love to know how many the SFO area gets in a week and if all theirs are bigger than ours (average 2.1, max 3.9 min 1.3).

David

Topic: RE: BA Seeks Halt To UK-US Aviation Deal, Afraid ...
Username: Kirstey
Posted 2002-10-29 14:51:04 and read 1743 times.

Donder10 - There will be no airport at Cliffe. 50,000,000 birds spend their summer there!! and the CAA has said there is no way to fit in more controlled airspace around there and not compromise safety into LHR,LGW and LCY I think you'll find Stanstead and Gatwick expansions are more likely!


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/