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Rumor - UAL To Sell Off 747-400's  
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2274 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

I've heard this rumor that United is planning to sell off a "significant number of its 747-400 fleet to get out of Chapter 11 sooner. (Avg 747 load factor is said to be only 20-30%) Has anyone else heard this?


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4443 times:

Not the avg 747 load factor being 20 to 30% part, as all the other indicators are that they're packing them in over the Pacific.

But yeah, this has been the buzz for some time.

N


User currently offlineBOEING747-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

I think I remember reading that someone said that Air Canada might be looking at SOME OF them. I think I read that here????????

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

Yes, there was a rumour that AC was interested in 5 ex-UA 744's. This rumour has not been substantiated. I would say ignore it!




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineN777UA From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

This is not a rumor...8 or so of United's 747s are up for sale...more most likely will be put up soon as well. Whether or not there will be any buyers is unsure...not many airlines are looking for huge capacity airplanes right now. Most likely some will be simply parked until things start up again.

United is not getting rid of the ENTIRE 747-400 fleet though, but scaling it back dramatically. Back in the 90s, they had a need for 45 747s, not now though. The new fleet most likely will number about 20 if I had to guess.


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4334 times:

Somebody I was talking to last week said that United would be acquiring a lot of RJ type aircraft and reducing the number or larger aircraft as they change their business model. I can't substantiate that of course, but it's just another rumour to spread around. Regarding the 747's, United must see where they are losing money, specifically which routes. How can they adapt their fleet to meet new requirements? While selling off the 747's could potentially generate cash flow, there must be a market for that aircraft type. Unfortunately, that is unlikely the case. Another thing is, if these aircraft are flying nearly full most of the time, they are generating much needed cash into the organization. There are many things to consider of course, but I'm not privy to inside information, unfortunately.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Is it possible for the PW4098 to be used on the 772ER?This may lead to a protracted way of using the 772 on the Aussie routes enabling the 744 to be dropped.That way costs can be reduced through elimination of a fleet type.
Boeing really must be regretting the GE exclusivity deal on the 777-200ER+ weights now.With RR in there too,the 773ER market is a lot larger IMO(BA,CX, with the likes of DL,AA as potential long term users)


User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1878 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Yes, Thai and Air Canada were looking at taking aircraft, Thai was considering up to 12 of them, UA has a massive route reconstruction plan that they are trying to get up and running in the next few years, basically it is to dramatically expand United Express because of there smaller equipment, they've been in talks with Bombardier as well considering to place more then 120 orders for CR2s and the larger CR7 aircraft I believe it was.
Hope this helps


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4273 times:

Both UA and KE investigated the PW4098 on the 772ER, and discarded it as either unnecessary or uneconomical.

I'm sure its possible.

N


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Is it possible for the PW4098 to be used on the 772ER?

It's been investigated by a number of airlines, as Neil suggested... however, the PW4098 is a fuel hog, and no airline other than KE has found its economics acceptable.


Boeing really must be regretting the GE exclusivity deal on the 777-200ER+ weights now.

I'd imagine that they'd regret putting two less capable engine types on the aircraft [which would cause it to not live up to its specifications and agitate its customers] a whole lot more than an exclusivity clause.

Let's face it, the Trent800 and especially the PW4000 were not suitably built for the 93,000lb+ market. Sure they have generated thrusts much higher than that...but at what cost? There's the Metco58 fiasco with the Trent892 (which no doubt shied a lot of customers from the Trent895... hence that engine's lackluster sales). And the problem of the PW4098 has already been stated.

GE built its lower-rated engine core with heavy reinforcements for growth. As a result of that decision, it lost out on the bulk of the 772A and all of the 773A market because airlines found the engine too weighty. However, in the 777NG market, GE has exclusivity. Sweet justice  Big grin


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12466 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

Thai was reported to have been looking at ex UAL 744s, but although a board meeting was to have taken place to approve this, it was some weeks ago and you can take it that Airbus (aided by French diplomatic pressure) will be working flat out to make sure Airbus gets the order for A340-5/600s as planned.

I didn't hear about AC, but it would surprise me very much, given that it is also a 340-5/600 customer and would be looking to standardise on A330/340 types, not keep the 744 in operation - a fine aircraft though it is - longer than necessary.

Remember that the market for secondhand 744s is very soft. As well as UA, BA also wants to dump a few and Iberia's recent decision to focus on new aircraft shows that even for them things are difficult.

If UA is relying on sales of the 744s to get it out of bankruptcy, I think it's in more serious trouble than we think. Ultimately, it will come down to selling European routes or LHR slots.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

Might be a good time for NW to pick up a batch of used 744's (from its arch rival UA).


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6601 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Maybe NW is also having the same problems filling their 747s and are looking to get rid of some?

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8016 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

I think UA will likely keep about 22-24 744's. They still need such a large plane for transpacific routes, where load factors are still quite high.

User currently offlineRhino4ever From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 146 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Just talked with a friend of mine who flies the 744 at NWA. Said they have been packing their 747's. Looking to add a couple non-stops back this spring out of DTW. Running almost full out of NRT vs. UAL's loads in the 20-30% much of the time out of NRT. Oriental's don't buy tickets on airlines that are bankrupt or even rumored to be approaching CH-11. He has heard they are in negotiations with leasing company to acquire 8 UAL 744's.

User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

I flew NW from MSP-NRT (744) in Nov. And then NRT to SEA (742) in Dec.

Both flights were packed. I know that could just be a fluke, but still...



Word
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

IMHO, United can get by on 22-24 744s like other forum members here have said, once UA has emerged from chapter 11. I also expect Northwest to pick up some 2-6 744s from United in the near-term future. Right now in this crazy industry, it's the "survival of the fittest" game. Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Ok so I've heard the 20% loads out of NRT, and the "packed full" out of NRT rumors.

Which is it? Is United packing them in over the pacific, or flying them empty?

N


User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

All UA 744's to go within the next few years. They will be using the 772 from what a UA pilot told me. Two engines across the world as opposed to four is economically better for them. I wish it weren't true, but it seems so.

FSP


User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3767 times:

20% loads out of NRT are absolutely ridiculous!! I would imagine something in the 40% range to come out of a NW employee's mouth, but 20%?! Someone obviously wanted to have fun at your expense...

As for NRT and every other market, it honestly depends on the day for all carriers. You generally have your lighter days of Tuesday and Wednesday, sometimes Thursday (as I'm sure you know), but all and all, the loads equal out to at least three, if not a little below four times what you were originally told.

Good point about Asians not wanting to have anything to do with a bankrupt carrier, but take into consideration that more frequently than not, Asians, especially in times of their native country's financial crisis, will always support their national carrier. Moot point.

Me, personally, I'm expecting that the 777 will rule United's network. With 60 777's soon to be (if not already) onhand, and the ability to aquire so many more, these aircraft which were designed to replace the "classic" 747 have in effect, begun to replace the 747-400. Their low low operating costs, belly cargo capacity, passenger capacity and performance blow the entire 747 line out of the water. For example, the amount of money which is sucked up by the original 2-747 SFO-NRT schedule can either be cut in 1/3, or a third 777 flight scheduled. For the same amount of money, United can boost cargo capacity by 1/3, add roughly 50 more passenger seats, as well as take advantage of so many more online connections to the US.

United Will Stand

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

rhino4ever,
our load factor isn't 20-30%over the pond, and your so called Orientals are flying united out of NRT.
the Asians do in fact fly united out of the orient because we have a strong presence in NRT.

that was pretty funny.


ual 777 contrail


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

I would bet that UA's 747-400 load factor is 70-80 %. Please give a source for your numbers.

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3701 times:

My dad flies the 747-400 for NW.... and every flight is full or nearly full for him. I can't remember the last time he said there was a bunch of empty seats.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

You wouldn't operate a 747 that was 20% full, if you were paying the outrageous prices for pilots, and staff, perdiums, meals, fuel landing, fees gate space, and so on a so forth, why would you operate a flight that was only 20% full?

rhino4ever, don't believe everything you hear from NW pilots.
you have to be smarter than that.

ual 777 contrail


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

You wouldn't operate a 747 that was 20% full, if you were paying the outrageous prices for pilots, and staff, perdiums, meals, fuel landing, fees gate space, and so on a so forth, why would you operate a flight that was only 20% full?

To keep the slots??

One question isn't it "normal" in January and February to have very low loads on the Pacific? I know that on Transatlantic flights a 20% - 30% load isn't strange during these months and wonder if the Transpacific flights follow the same pattern.

BTW are we talking about only pax loads or is cargo included in the load figure?


25 Rhino4ever : Those flights will operate to keep slots. It is a slow time of year and loads do fall off. Load factors I talked about were results from the previous
26 ContinentalEWR : I still think UA will keep several 747-400's (perhaps up to a dozen or 15) that will operate on primary transpacific routes such as SFO/LAX to NRT, SY
27 HlywdCatft : The NW 744s to DTW from Asia were always coming in packed full daily. Last summer I would see the load sheets. The only time that they were 20-30% low
28 Ual777contrail : If there is war with Iraq? I could see CO, and HP going bye,bye. AA,DL instantly filing for chap.11 USair chap. 7 and I wouldn't say it is what IF, we
29 Post contains images Mattnrsa : The flts to Asia are doing well for UA and NW. I don't know about the NW flts, but UA flts to all our Asian destinations, especially NRT, are very ful
30 Skymileman : That would make sense. Those 74's are just too big for the industry right now. I hope that the 74's going out doesn't discourage purchase of the a380.
31 Gigneil : Airlines are betting on the improvement of the economy in the next 3 or so years. Logic and trends suggest that we're testing the bottom now, and that
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