FedEx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1726 times:
[Editors note:] Excerpt from the CNN Air safety message board on http://community.cnn.com/
Rob Plenert - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 62428pm (#4151 of 4170)
This site provides an excellent forum for people to express their opinions and to
discuss theories pertaining to Air Safety - particularly the Swissair 111 crash.
There have been recent situations where certain participants have posted
information that is misleading. This in itself is occasionally acceptable, because
after all, we are human, and nobody has all of the answers. Where it becomes a
problem, is when the participants suggest they can back up their statements due
to direct experience in their field. If pressed, it becomes appearent that's not
true, and they simply are not the person they claim to be. Such is the case of
two individuals under the names 'AVIATOR_UA', and 'JOHN FAZIO'.
Aviator_ua has been very active on two other message boards -
AIRLINERS.NET, and the YAHOO SR111 CLUB; while John Fazio was until
recently, actively involved in this board.
At first thought they appear to be the same person. Both have made statements
claimed as fact, and when challenged, neither can provide direct proof of their
statements. Both have deliberately IMPLIED that they were professional
commercial pilots, while errors in various statements suggest otherwise.
Rob Plenert - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 62647pm (#4152 of 4170)
As I said before, normally it wouldn't be a problem because this is the Internet.
But in the case of Aviator_ua, he/she has had numerous discussions on the
Yahoo site DIRECTLY WITH family members of victims of the crash.
Aviator_ua discussions often appear inflammatory, and due to his constant
involvement, I believe they have significantly influenced the tone of that board.
Imagine being a victim's relative, attempting to gleen information from an
aviation expert - such as an experienced commercial pilot - only to find out that
he's something like a shoe-salesman. (Sorry those of you in that trade. I'm only
making a point.)
Well, enough said on my concern. Before I tell you what's going on, I'll preface
it with a few disclaimers
1. By naming these two people, I do not intend to discredit them. I only wish to
show that they are not who they claimed to be.
2. If I am incorrect in identifying them, then I appologize unreservedly up front.
3. I am making no suggestion by providing links that any other persons or
businesses are involved.
Rob Plenert - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 63007pm (#4153 of 4170)
Besides the incident on this board where John Fazio was challenged for some of
the information he provided, I noticed on AIRLINERS.NET, and the SR111
CLUB message boards that Aviator_ua was also being challenged about his
In one of his posts he claimed to be a 44 year old commercial pilot, and his dad
had also been a pilot with United Airlines. In the case of Aviator_ua's profile, he
stated he was involved in aviation based out of New York. So, given that
background, first I'll show you how I tracked down Aviator_ua. Here's the trail
I followed. The links in each sub-heading are my proof
Rob Plenert - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 63304pm (#4154 of 4170)
1. Here's AVIATOR_UA's first mistake - using the name Kevin Mahoney, a
commercial pilot from New York
2. Next, using the name Kevin Mahoney again, and still involved in the aviation
industry in New York, he posting using a different email address
3. Searching the web with his new email address, I found a comment that Kevin
sent to the Jerusalem Post. The problem with that is that his name is now
suddenly 'Kevin Crotty'.
4. A search of 'Kevin Crotty' places him in a Travel Agency in Yonkers New
York. Here Kevin is listed as a 'Computer' staff member. And get this - just try
to guess who the president of the Travel Agency is?...None other than Mr. John
5. So, you were right after all, John Fazio and Aviator_ua are the same person!
Well now that thought I found him, I remembered that he posted his dad was a
United Airlines pilot. So I searched again, and found an aviation flight learning
center in New York, that photo-documented a field-trip by some students to
United Airlines. (The learning centre offers outreach programs to high-school
students who want to get into aviation as a career. They provide aviation
training, flight time in small aircraft, and they have a small simulator.) In one of
the photos, you can see there's a real Captain Ray Mahoney, who surprisingly
looks good for being someone's 44-year-old dad.
Rob Plenert - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 63629pm (#4155 of 4170)
This trail has an erie resemblance to the movie Usual Suspects, where the main
character employs the identity of many people around him, into fabricating his
Like I say, I could be way off base here. Or else, this character has many more
layers he's hidden behind, and poor Kevin Crotty is also being used. I'll let you
make up your minds on that. I'd rather not dig deeper, simply because it's not
necessary. Suffice to say that we should be wary of people who have way too
much time on their hands. If nothing else, it makes you think about the
'electronic fingerprint' we all leave behind us on the internet.
I'll leave you with one of Aviator_ua's famous quotes again from the
AIRLINERS.NET message board (Post 02-03-99 0233) "...there is no
substitute for being yourself and being honest..."
Michael Zolkiewski - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 72744pm (#4156 of 4170)
Rob, I am speechless. And you discovered all this from your desk overlooking
the PAcific (I guess). That's the power of Internet! As I said before, this whole
thing is a dream for a Ph.D. candidate in sociology.
By the way, Aviator's profile at YAhoo has been updated today. No new info
though... (CNN did not let me post the link to his profile, but you know how to
Robert Foothorap - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 75931pm (#4157 of 4170)
Rob Plenert 2/9/99 636pm
Rob, what an amazing piece of work. I suspect there will be more to this story.
This is a like reading a novel.
Cecil - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 84909pm (#4158 of 4170)
Rob....or should I say "Cyber Cop." Some acomplishment, some story, some
poor soul. I hope that the poster was an employee and not the principle of a
travel agency and a professional in the industry.
Now, I can't help but ponder if any caprice travel ticketed paxs were on board.
Rob Plenert 2/9/99 636pm
Rob, even though I saw the same trail of evidence when you sent that message
to me yesterday, I am still extremely impressed by the way you managed to
track these people down.
That's incredible. And also frightening, both from the point of view of the
electronic fingerprint we all leave behind (as you mentioned), and from the point
of view that people would really do something like this hiding behind
questionable identities, pretending to be something and someone that they really
are not, for unknown purposes.
I leave it up to the sociologists and psychologists (and your own imagination!) as
to just what people like this one (these two?) actually hope to achieve Why
would someone go around all over the internet, pretending to be a pilot, stirring
up hatred, spreading incorrect information, and generally creating chaos, anger
and heartache? I cannot fathom why someone would do that! It makes no sense
to me unless they hoped to get something out of it Money? Revenge? An ego
trip? Who knows what the real reason might be. I have my own opinion, but I'll
keep it to myself.
Suffice it to say that this kind of twisted mentality has done a lot of damage,
both here and on the other boards you mentioned. A lot of people really believed
in that mis-information, many of them family members of the victims, and now
they won't know what to think any more, or who to believe. Its sad to think
about that. What a world we live in!
China King - Tuesday, 02/09/99, 92047pm (#4162 of 4170)
Totally awesome, Roblock Holmes. That takes some digging.
Look, I found something else interesting. You'll need two browser windows to
do this justice. Open one to
Virgin Atlantic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (17 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1685 times:
Yeah FedEx got it right I found out about this website earlier today not knowing what to do I thought I extract myself from the situation.. I just want everyone to know that you should never be ashamed by who you are. Every one in this world is great. Well I guess I am back. I apologize if you guys think I am playing around but that is some pretty tripped out SH*T and it is something I would expect to find on the TV and think that will never happen to me. Boy was I wrong!!
DC10-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (17 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1682 times:
I made a search with "captain_ua": he spoke a lot, often on technically questions... Bravo, Thanks FedEx for your investigations, Virgin Atlantic, stay with us, we need your experience & knowledge. I'm an engineer student in Paris, I read a lot of books about civil aviation, but nothing can replace the knowledge of professionals.
MD-11 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (17 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1681 times:
I have always personally thought he is a fraud, and find it quite ironic that everyone got bent out of shape when captpeter made known mine and his doubts about this guy. Well I'm glad now everyone knows the truth about him.
Will From Australia, joined May 1999, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (17 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1683 times:
What can l say...Good work mate...Let us all learn from this, and there is a lot to learn from. Make sure we all keep our professionalism throughout any further conflicts that we may face. Good work all..
Cool Cat IIIc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (17 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1684 times:
What an interesting development this is ! I have always felt that anybody who needs to pride himself that much on a career to be heard either is an egomaniac or isn't all he says he is. Ever since he didn't know that mach numbers are expressed as 0.82 rather than 0.082 I was rather skeptical. However, maybe we should allow aviator_ua to defend his actions before we really start jumping to conclusions. If he has any kind of backbone he will be on the net explaining what exactly is going on. This is a problem inherent to the internet anyway, there is no way you can check anybodies identity (at least not easily) so many people do lie. This I have no problem with personally (come on, we've all done it...) as long as you don't profess to make statements based on your supposed knowledge and as long as you keep seeing it yourself as a joke. Even using names like this (Cool Cat IIIc) leaves us totally anonymous and being able to fabricate any story we would like. For that reason I have never made any claims about myself. I just speak my mind as an anonymous person and that's ok (I hope).
One thing about aviator_ua, he does definately know something about flying for united, so he has ties somewhere. Then again, if MD-11 would say he's a pilot I would have easily believed him because he's so knowledgable. My point being, if you bullsh*t, do it about something you know quite a bit about (which is exactly what avaitor_ua seems to have done).
So, aviator_ua, if you read this (and I know you do), show us all that we have judged you too harshly and explain us what's really going on. What do you say ?
And finally, Iain, welcome back !
Mirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1681 times:
Rob Plenert says: "... By naming these two people, I do not intend to discredit them. I only wish to show that they are not who they claimed to be. 2. If I am incorrect in identifying them, then I appologize unreservedly up front."
Maybe Rob has made an icorrect identification of these two people.
I just want to say that due to Internet dangers anything is possible, so it's to early to make conclusions out of this.
A1ex From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1682 times:
...and special agent CX747, who auhorised you stock your transport in my AREA 51?? We're expecting a cargo delivery from Constellation Andromeda, and your vehicles are causing distruction to the scheduled UFO landings...
Virgin Atlantic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1685 times:
I have just recieved an E-mail from non other then aviator ua. He claims that the duds who wrote the article is jealous of him. ANd he is going to file legal charges just for the fun of it. Then he goes into how he is going to kick his ass so his mouth will not be able to do any more lieing.
I also noticed 2 things:
1) He did not sign the letter.
2) It was only sent to 2 members of this forum both of us are young. It was FlyF15 and myself. I wonder what all this means.
Also David your Rolls Royce needs a bath!! My Bentley is being cleaned as we speak.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9643 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (17 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1682 times:
Good, we're agreed about cars. Now let's pack this in before we get thrown out for going off subject! :) I've already had a yellow card a couple of weeks ago - sorry about that, Johan.
Henceforth this day shall be known as The Day Iain Came Back and we'll all remember what we were doing on The Day Iain Came Back. I knew you would - you're obviously connected to this board by a very strong piece of elastic.
Now, back to the top of the board!
: BAHAHAHAHAHA. I told you!!! I told you he was a fraud!!!!!! Hahahaha, you guys are losers (Except for L1011-500, FedEx, MD-11 and a few others) Oh boy
: Okay, I'm sorry. You guys aren't losers except for Aviator_UA. You guys are pretty good. I had a few people e-mail me to come back and I will come bac
: Yea, Iain, I got that email too. I don't really want to get myself involved in this, I just hope that all of this stuff we are saying about him and fr
28 David L
: I'd also recommend everyone reads the original post very carefully. Don't read something that isn't there or put words into the contributor's mouth.
: Yes, I would like every one to remember that all of this stuff from CNN is from a forum not too unlike this one. This guy that said all this stuff abo
: True very True. As for everybody else you can keep your exotic cars. I'll stick with my seventeen year old Ford pickup truck
31 Virgin Atlantic
: But he has not dinied it like I would have done the second I found out. All I know is he wants to beat his as* and make him not able to speak again. T
32 David L
: FlyF15's right - who do you trust? Aviator_UA does seem to know a lot about aviation but I've been following the discussion at CNN since it started an
: I just got through reading all these post and I was flabbergasted. I trusted aviator_ua, but I was also surprised at his error with the mach numbers.
: I'm sorry but if you fly a B767 for a living you should know MACH numbers right off the top of your head along with other things such as checklist. Ca
: Can someone please e-mail me at LAbsolute7@aol.com and summerize what the heck is going on. I am really busy these days, and there are SO SO many post