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Boeing Rejects 717-300 For AirTran; Pushing 737NG  
User currently offlineBigo747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8451 times:

Boeing's top salesman has rejected the streched B717 (-300) during a meeting with AirTran today. Boeing is pushing for the larger 737NG.

AirTran is looking for capacity more than 117 pax. 736 is 110-seater and 73G is 126-seater. Both can fly trans-continental, which suitable for AirTran's need.

"We are talking to AirTran. We think that a 737-700 or even a -600 might be the right size for doing what they do and have the capability to do what they are wanting to do," Bright told reporters on a teleconference.

There are 40 orders for the 717. AirTran already plans to take 73 of all 153 717. It may order another 50 plus 50 options this year.

AirTran Chief Executive Joe Leonard told Reuters this week that the airline would also consider buying jets from Boeing rival Airbus SAS (XETRA:EAD.DE - News; Paris:EAD.PA - News), which builds a family of jets, the A320 class, ranging from 107 seats to 185.

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8291 times:

This is no surprise.

A 717-300 in a sense would be a clear competitor to the 737-700 even though the 717-300 was designed more for short hops, while the 737-700 is capable of transcons.

The 737NG is a much higher priority than the 717 family. Boeing will want to protect it's 737NG orders at all costs.

I think the 737-700 would be good for AirTran.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8266 times:

I hope Airtran gives Boeing the finger. It seems to be the en vogue thing to do these days.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Just kidding.

N


User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13647 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8185 times:
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As I said in a previous post, Boeing needs to pay careful attention to listening to what their customers want, not taking a product they don't want and cramming it down their throats.

Boeing developed the 764 solely for CO and DL. Retooling to develop a 717-300 couldn't cost much more, and a potential order for 100 of the type would really help Boeing's bottom line.

Why can't they work on that instead of telling AirTran, Silly little airline, you don't want a stretched 717...what you really want is a 73G!" and creating a customer for life?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8171 times:

If I were Joe Leonard, I would have listened to him say "No, We are not building a 717-300, but we would like to give you the 737." and then I would have just closed my book, scooted out of my chair, and said. Fine, We're going to Airbus. I bet you one thing. All Joe Leonard has to do is mention going to Airbus, and Boeing just might get some sense knocked into him.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

Maybe Airbus can exhume the AE3XX program, use them to replace all of the 717s, and make a variant of that line that can meet Airtran's requirements.

BA, could you repost the picture of the AE3XX?

N


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8148 times:

Never mind, I found it.



N


User currently offlineTransSwede From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8134 times:

Did they mention 736's? No need to buy them new... SAS has a whole bunch they would love to get rid of!  Smile

User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8131 times:

Here you go:



Read my thread here for information about it:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/983565/6

Simply put, Boeing views the 717-300 as a threat. That's why they're not going to build it. They haven't been very optimistic about the 717-200 lately. It's the least marketted aircraft by Boeing.

Regards




"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

Sorry Gigneil, you beat me.  Smile

I must have posted it right after you did.  Smile

Just to let you know Gigneil, I might write an article and put it up on Airliners.net about the 717 Family and Boeing's hesitation in developing new variants.

We'll see how it goes. I might be rambling about nothing though. If so, then I won't write it.

Regards

[Edited 2003-02-01 04:56:52]


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineCO 757 200 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8106 times:

All I can say is real smart Boeing, real smart......first off, alienate Iberia, and now strong arm Air Tran into acquiring a aircraft that doesn't meet their tastes......one wonders how long they'll go on with this before they realize the foolishness of their conduct??

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8084 times:

BA-

Write on. Even if its a ramble, I'd like to read it.

I like to read the articles over at Air Transport Business, too, but Alain has been too busy with school and work to update them lately.

N


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8070 times:

Alright Neil, I'll start it probably sometime this weekend if I have time.

I've been very busy lately with school work as well.

Yes, Alain is an excellent writer. His articles are quite fantastic on his website. He's even gotten some articles published in magazines.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8062 times:

And now we know the reason for that earlier comment by Airtran about looking at Airburst Aircraft.

If Boeing isn't willing to build them their first choice of aircraft, I can't blame them for hunting around.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineBa319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8561 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8056 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Boeing would be better off listening to ther customers.

Making a 717-300 is likely to help sales of the 717-200,hell,it might become a big seller.

Airlines like a common type,have pilots be able to fly different types,sizes etc,look to the 757/767 and bar the A300/310 the same pilot can fly the entire Airbus range with minimal training.

Not just that,spares,common to the -200 and -300 for example.Same engine types etc,the list goes on.

Its highly unlikely,almost non existant as a possibility,but,Airtran could go to Airbus,get a sweet deal and dump Boeing.

The econony is on a downer,but making a 717-300 now could place Boeing in a better position once everything picks up and the airlines get their cheque books out again.

Rgds

BA319-131



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineJU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8043 times:

I am sure that Boeing would make more profit in selling the 737 versus the 717. First of all the cost of purchasing a 737 is more than the 717, and furthermore the 737 is in absolute mass-production, and thus may have lower production cost per unit sold as opposed to the less popular 717.

Overall its essential that the company does not overlap its aircraft models. I personally think that investing in the 767-400 was unneeded, considering that the 777 has more to offer. Nevertheless, the 767-300 and 767-200 should continue as they did up to now, however with attainable modifications to improve their overall modernity and efficiency.


User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8028 times:

How hard would it be to throw a couple of plugs into a 717-200 and make a 717-300?

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8030 times:

JU101 - Whilst I agree that the 767-400 is a red-headed stepchild of an airplane, one would wonder what CO and DL would have replaced their DC-10s and L-1011s with.

I doubt it would have been 777s.

HllywdCatft- It would probably take a higher rated engine, too.

N


User currently offlineSv11 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

Is Airtran asking for a 717-300? The 717 and 737 have different ranges, I don't see them competing with each other. I agree Boeing should pay attention to their customer's wants-they developed 747 for PanAm, 737 for Lufthansa. As someone said putting more plugs and higher thrust engines shouldn't be hard.

sv11


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7982 times:

BA, Please write and post an article. I would love to read it.

See, This is why I liked McDonnell Douglas. They listened to the customer. They didn't tell Valujet "No No, You want the MD-80, They fly farther." They listened to Valujet/AirTran and worked with them on the MD-95/717. The same with the MD-90. They worked with Delta on the production of the MD-90, and they also worked with other airlines who ordered it.

I think what Boeing fails to realize that if they have a potential customer for an aircraft, they should go ahead, and throw in a few fuselage plugs, and make some money. By saying "NO!" to the 717-300, they probably lost a couple of billion dollars.

Nice going Boeing  Yeah sure

I wouldn't doubt it if Joe Leonard orders some CFM powered A318 and A319 aircraft now.

And please don't gimme that B-S- about Boeing owning part of AirTran. I am sure that AirTran could drop that deal, and let Airbus finance that part of them. Airbus seems to be looking out for potential customers, and I am sure they would gladly work with AirTran on the A320 family.

If I were Joe Leonard, I'd be pissed off at Phil Condom right about now.


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7964 times:

All I can say is real smart Boeing, real smart......first off, alienate Iberia, and now strong arm Air Tran into acquiring a aircraft that doesn't meet their tastes......one wonders how long they'll go on with this before they realize the foolishness of their conduct??

Real smart comment, real smart  Insane . Ever consider that AirTran may be trying to strong arm Boeing into building an aircraft that will have only one customer and hurt Boeing's bottom line? Is anyone else other than Air Tran going to buy a 717-300? Why the hell should Boeing tailor make an aircraft for just ONE airline? Do you how much that would cost Boeing? Listening to customers is smart, but those customers must realize that Boeing is a business too. I say AirTran is the dumbass in this situation.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7950 times:

I think what Boeing fails to realize that if they have a potential customer for an aircraft, they should go ahead, and throw in a few fuselage plugs, and make some money. By saying "NO!" to the 717-300, they probably lost a couple of billion dollars.

Nice going Boeing


What you fail to realize is the pointlessness of developing a new aircraft that will have only one customer. OK, so Boeing builds the 713, and in a year you will be bitching about its dry orderbook, fill with only 10 AirTran orders.

See, This is why I liked McDonnell Douglas. They listened to the customer. They didn't tell Valujet "No No, You want the MD-80, They fly farther." They listened to Valujet/AirTran and worked with them on the MD-95/717. The same with the MD-90. They worked with Delta on the production of the MD-90, and they also worked with other airlines who ordered it.

No, they didn't, and Boeing isn't doing this either. What AirTran wants is simply non-feasable. Boeing knows this, tough luck for AirTran.

And please don't gimme that B-S- about Boeing owning part of AirTran. I am sure that AirTran could drop that deal, and let Airbus finance that part of them. Airbus seems to be looking out for potential customers, and I am sure they would gladly work with AirTran on the A320 family.

I doubt it will go that far. And it costs much more to integrate the A320 family than it would to integrate the 73NGs with the 717s. If Airbus were placed in the same situation, their reaction would be the same. Aeronautical Engineers ain't stupid. They have math skills BR, and the math shows that a 717-300 would be suicide.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers



User currently offlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1367 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7941 times:

The Tran would order a 737 before a 717-300 anyways...at least thats how I see it...



User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7922 times:

PRIDE...that is what it comes down to all around!!! No matter how good the 717/MD 8X product is Boeing will always consider it to be the stepchild that it never wanted. Air-tran wants what fits in with its fleet and Boeing would like nothing better than to just continue on with its own baby the 737, of which it is justifiably proud. I can draw a weak parallel between Boeing and the company I work for and say that eventually you have to bend to customers wishes and do something special for them and so long as they cover the cost either through development payments or through enough orders to cover the development costs it is worth it in the long run in order to stop the competition from winning the business. Just my late night opinion.
Ed



Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7900 times:

AvroArrow...I doubt pride is the matter. Boeing is a business out for +$$$$$$. They did the math, and developing the 713 solely for AirTran and then watch as it is tossed into aviation history's trash can results in -$$$$$$$.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


25 MD88Captain : At what point would does the 717 production line become profitable? Does anyone here know? BA has not sold many and the first 50 sold were sold very c
26 MD-90 : Boeing4ever, I'm a sophomore studying Aerospace Engineering here at Mississippi State University, which is well known for it's aero program (as well a
27 AvroArrow : Of course I never claimed to be a business expert, it would just cheese me off to see B lose the business to A if Air Trans pride makes them go to A j
28 DASH8KING : Real smart comment, real smart . Ever consider that AirTran may be trying to strong arm Boeing into building an aircraft that will have only one custo
29 Sllevin : Without a doubt, if AirTran had the backing and finances to commit deeply to a 717-300 programme, Boeing would build it. But the reality is that that
30 717fan : Its cheaper to sell an airplane who exists as to develope a new one...thats the reason why Boeing is pushing the 737NG....but it seems that Airtran st
31 BR715-A1-30 : There IS a reason that Valujet didn't go with BOEING in 1995. They went with McD instead because McD was committed to the customer. William Boeing wou
32 Jwenting : Ah, all the self-appointed business specialists are at it again. Has anyone even tried to find out the development cost and likely market for the 717-
33 Post contains images Ouboy79 : Some random thoughts here...so this post will jump all over the place - you are warned. The 737 is an old design like the 717...but the 73 hasn't unde
34 Atcboy73 : Did I miss something. Has Air Tran stated publicly that they want a 717-300?
35 777236ER : This is why I liked McDonnell Douglas. They listened to the customer. Oh please BR715, don't post rubbish. If McDD listened to their customers how com
36 John : This is just a thought. A 717-300 would essentially BE an MD-87, correct? So, why not just reopen that line with a few modifications(mainly the engine
37 FlyPNS1 : You guys all have to realize that Boeing is slowly phasing itself out of commercial aviation. Look at Boeing's recent earnings report, you'll notice t
38 BR715-A1-30 : Boeing cannot drop the 737-600 because it is built on the same line as the -700/-800/-900. If they shut down the -600, They'd have to shut down the re
39 717fan : Until now everything is just talk, Airtran has said that they want a new aircraft, Boeing says that will more likely sell the 737 than a 713, At one t
40 RayChuang : Didn't AirTran fly the 737-200 for a while during the 1990's? I think AirTran should take the offer to buy the 737-700 because WN has demonstrated it
41 Ouboy79 : AirTran's original fleet was comprised of 737-200s. Then the ValuJet merger came along and the fleet had DC-9s and 73Ss...eventually the 717s started
42 Elwood64151 : Jwenting: Where do you get $5B for developing the 717-300? It didn't cost that much to develop the 712! I'm sure that Boeing believes it is acting in
43 Goingboeing : Oddly enough, I am reading "21st Century jet". Boeing seems to have forgotten something in a rather short time...this is from the first chapter of the
44 Artsyman : Rather than telling them what they "should" buy, you ought to take their money, use the tooling that's already in place, and build the damn planes. Do
45 Boeing4ever : Note to Boeing - you've got a customer telling you what they want. The economy sucks right now, and a customer is telling you "We will buy X number of
46 MCOtoATL : "Those dumbasses at AirTran need some common sense beaten into THEM! " Yeah, they have some nerve actually telling people what they want for their com
47 Goingboeing : Okay Boeing4ever- go down to your Chevy dealer, tell them you want a Corvette, and allow the to smack some sense into you and tell you that you should
48 MD88Captain : Should Boeing build 717-300's even if it means losing money on everone it builds? Isn't that like asking Boeing for money? Maybe BA should just skip t
49 Post contains images Ybacpa : Just because more 717s have been built than 736s does not make the 717 more successful... having to run a completely separate assembly line substantia
50 Boeing4ever : Okay Boeing4ever- go down to your Chevy dealer, tell them you want a Corvette, and allow the to smack some sense into you and tell you that you should
51 Lowfareair : B4e: the tiny little flaw you forgot in your car analogy is that GM sells as many cars in a day as Boeing has sold commercial jets up til now. From wh
52 DASH8KING : Okay Boeing4ever- go down to your Chevy dealer, tell them you want a Corvette, and allow the to smack some sense into you and tell you that you should
53 Goingboeing : The jurys' still out on how much Boeing is going to have to eat from the bankrupt US and UAL, and potentially AA. They didn't "give" them those aircra
54 Gigneil : The episode where Homer bankrupts his brother comes to mind... However, I'm sure Boeing sold people this airplane as an airplane with a future. Its na
55 Travatl : Ya know...why is everybody so pissed off at AirTran for "talking" to Boeing about a 717-300. It was just that.....talking. There were no DEMANDS made
56 Rumorboy : I have to agree with Travatl with this one. There just talking that's all. No need for every body to get worked up. There has been some interest in t
57 Gigneil : This is where I toss in my standard 2 cents about differentiation. I'd think it good if Airtran based A319s in Atlanta, clearly where Boeing is cultiv
58 BR715-A1-30 : Damn Travis, I have to commend you on that one. ::APPLAUSE:: I'm serious, That is the first thing I have read (on this post) that actually makes sense
59 Boeing4ever : And Boeing4ever - you are an absolute jackass for your comments ("heads beaten in"?......nice) - but that's what happens when the teenaged-armchair-ai
60 DASH8KING : I'm serious, That is the first thing I have read (on this post) that actually makes sense. The only posts that don't make sense are the people that th
61 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The only posts that don't make sense are the people that think Boeing should build the 717-300 and not worry about profit. Now THAT makes sense DASH8K
62 DASH8KING : Thanks B4e, some people don't realize that Boeing makes planes to make money and please customers not to please spotters.
63 Buckfifty : I think you guys are all taking this a bit too seriously. They're just talking right now. AirTran wants an aircraft on their terms, Boeing wants to se
64 DASH8KING : "So, if you aren't going to sell me that Cavalier at the price I want, I'll go and get a Focus instead." Right but Airbus isn't going to build an 717-
65 MD-90 : How many people that have responded to this thread actually work for Boeing? How many people on this thread have actual proof that Boeing has said tha
66 717fan : According to Speednew.com a 717-200ER is also under consideration.... I beleive the order (if ever placed) could be 717-200ER and 737-700....
67 Buckfifty : How many people that have responded to this thread actually work for Boeing? How many people on this thread have actual proof that Boeing has said tha
68 PW100 : I wonder, how badly does Air Tran need a 717-300 [ER]? How important is the single type fleet concept to them? If that was really important to them, t
69 Lowfareair : What FL is saying is that IF Boeing builds them a 713, then it would be a guaranteed order for BA. If they don't, then the playing field between BA an
70 Post contains links Travatl : Exactly Lowfareair Now take note boeing4ever, open your ears and learn something. AirTran is COMFORTABLE OPERATING TWO AIRCRAFT TYPES....I never said
71 BR715-A1-30 : Thanx for the link Travis, I am listening to it now.
72 Post contains images Flyer732 : Exactly Travis... Now...today is Sunday, we should have some oversells, come help us work them ~Ryan
73 Travatl : Silly Ryan - on this gorgeous day? I'm spending the afternoon lying in the hammock, drinking margaritas! So are you on the "D" concourse yet, or are y
74 Coronado : Nobody is mentioning the Embraer 190-100. $30mm cost, and almost 2300nm (4300 kms) or quite a bit more range than the 717 1430NM (or for the HGW 2000n
75 GD727 : Whoa! Part of Airtran's argument is not even making sense here! If Boeing indeed, does not build the 717-300, why in God's name would Airbus be a seco
76 Lowfareair : b/c the 717 is a MDD aircraft and therefore has absolutely no commonality with the 737 family.
77 ConcordeBoy : yes, but it DOES leave Boeing as one of FL's largest creditors...
78 DASH8KING : Part of Airtran's argument is not even making sense here! If Boeing indeed, does not build the 717-300, why in God's name would Airbus be a second cho
79 BA : b/c the 717 is a MDD aircraft and therefore has absolutely no commonality with the 737 family. That's not entirely true. While the 717 has a completel
80 BlatantEcho : I think something that has been overlooked here, is the cost of NOT producing what the customer wants. AirTran is growing, and will need many more pla
81 Flyer732 : Travis, I didn't get D, althought I'm still filling in on Sundays and Mondays until the guy who got it moves up here...thats right...moves up here. So
82 Post contains links and images Travatl : Ryan - Let me guess...he's moving from TPA... And as for this thread - I give up. These people are jut not looking at the facts - so goes a.net thread
83 CanadianNorth : Im with Boeing... I think that they are simply pushing the NG737 because they have kept the 737 line going for so long they dont want to stop now. i t
84 Rumorboy : How important is the B717, in 2002 you booked orders for: 162 B737 32 B717 32 B777 17 B747 8 B767 0 B757 Wake up Seattle the B717 is tied for your sec
85 Flyer732 : RumorBoy.... Most of those 717s went to AirTran. You can't expect large numbers of orders for 777s, 747s, and 767s because only larger airlines use th
86 Travatl : I agree with Ryan on this. When you look at the NUMBER of airlines that book each aircraft type, the 717 falls way to the back.... (and actually as an
87 Flyer732 : Travis, I'd rather see the A319 too, I think it'd look better in our paint and I'd rather get pics of it...beggers can't be choosers. Anything is bett
88 Buckfifty : Since it's a Christmas list, ask them for the Sonic Cruiser. Makes for quite a commute, I reckon...
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