Bobcat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6672 times:
I was on a UA flight bound for IAD this week. It was on a
While I was waiting around the gate area, I overheard the
gate agent mentioning that there were 5 pilots in jump-
seats... !!!??? How is it even possible to fit that many
jumpseats in the 777?
After boarding, I soon found 3 of them sitting in the
business section... Guess it wasn't comfortable to sit on
each other's laps in the 5 jumpseats? One of the
was sitting across the aisle from me, so I asked him if
there were really 5 jumpseats in the cockpit... he acted
annoyed and simply said it was cheaper this way... leaving
me even more confused...
Skyway1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6593 times:
When a pilot jumpseats, it doesn't necessarily mean they are riding in the cockpit. If a pilot wants to jumpseat and there are seats available in the back, they sit in the back. Although on some airlines, only that airline's pilots can ride jumpseat in the cockpit.....which means if another airline pilot wants to jumpseat on that airline and there are no seats available in the back, they cannot jumpseat. With C8, when a pilot jumpseats most of the time they ride in the back unless they absolutley have to ride up front. Hope this clears up any confusion you have.
Bobcat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6548 times:
They said there were 5 pilots using cockpit OMC(or was it OCM,
CMO, MOC? I know it was not MCO... )in the cockpit...
not in the back.... ??? Can they have more of these than
the actual number of cockpit jumpseats available?
Skyway1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6531 times:
What they were probably doing was taking their passes into the cockpit to have the captain meet them, verify their ID and accept them as jumpseaters. At C8, we can definitely have more than 1 jumpseater on a flight. That's probably what the gate agent was referring to. I don't actually know though how many jumpseats there are in a 777.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3640 posts, RR: 29 Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6379 times:
It's really simple... first, jumpseating is FREE - so that's why it's cheaper. It's apart of the benfit of being an airline pilot (or cargo). Second, each airline has a different jumpseat policy. At my company we'll accomodate as many jumpseaters as we have open seats after all revenue passengers and nonrevs have boarded. Several airlines have the same policy. On the otherhand, some airlines will only accomodate as many jumpseaters as there are physical jumpseats. So, 1 jumpseat on the flightdeck = 1 jumpseater. Northwest has something inbetween- they'll take as many as there are physical jumpseats + 2, example... Airbus has 2 jumpseats, so they'll take 4 jumpseaters. Since there isn't 5 physical jumpseats on the 777, I suspect UA has the open jumpseat policy. By the way - it is up to the discretion of the agent and then the flight crew as to which cabin the jumpseater occupies. And as far as occupying the physical jumpseat, post 9/11 this means that you can basically only occupy the physical jumpseat of the airline you work for - and that is only if there are no open seats in the cabin. Even that policy varies by airline. Hope this helps.
Ual777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6320 times:
let me clear you up on the pilot thing. First off they were OMC's, we have freeloading pilots all over the system. EVERYONE At united has to pay for flights, except these freeloaders. Now if there are 15 open seats on the plane, the captain can now take as many UNITED OMC's as he wants. Even though there may only be 1 or 2 physical jumpseats available. These idiots make the most money and they are the cheapest people on the planet. The good thing is we put these monkeys in middle seats, they get what is left over. So instead of these rocket men paying $20.00 dollars for a good seat in business, they'll take amiddle seat in coach to save the money? Idiots.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3640 posts, RR: 29 Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6262 times:
Ual777contrail - you are one bitter person. That's the typical agent mentality about jumpseaters. You don't have the benefit - so you're jealous and going to treat us like crap. Did you know FA's have jumpseat privledges too? Do you treat them the same? It is not even a matter of money!! Your pilots at UA might make a lot of money, but that isn't always the case you know. YOu think twice about your feelings about the highrolling pilots the next time an ACA jumpseater shows up at your counter - or any regional airline pilot for that matter. This benefit is apart of the job and it is a perk that we have, alot like the fact that you get to be home everynight. It's really too bad you're so bitter and always looking for a fight. Holding a grudge against an entire profession must be prety taxing on your life. I wish you the best of luck for the rest of your apparantly very jaded life.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3640 posts, RR: 29 Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6110 times:
Oh yea UA777contrail - dispatchers also have the priviledge of jumpseating! In fact it is an annual requirement. Try not to channel all your angst towards all of the pilots anymore you bitter man/woman.
Ual777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6040 times:
ok, first things first.1) Typical agent mentality? The fact that you whinners get a free ride and the rest of us have to pay? Think about that.2) Jealous about what? Because the captain will take as many jumpseaters as he wants? That wouldn't be jealousy that would be unfair.3) aca jumpseater doesn't hold a candle to a UA pilot jumpseating. Captain will turn AWAC,ACA,SKYWEST away in a heartbeat, so no we don't treat the ACA guy bad. UA Pilots shot themselves in the foot by allowing so many regionals to take our routes, I am happy to help out an express pilot. They need the jumpseat, they don't make a fraction of what our pilots make for now anyways. 4)This is perk of the job? Cool, just like when you see our idiot pilots sitting at a 777 gate with 50 non-revs trying to get 5 open seats on the plane and I check on an open computer and see an empty A320 leaving 5 minutes earlier five gates away and I get first class, just a perk? I guess.5) And about the being home at night? Find another job that will keep you home at night, don't blame me because you cant be home at night. And for the record, I get along with OUR pilots when their egos don't get in the way. We here at UNITED have some very,very nice pilots but they are the old grey hairs, once they are gone we get the cocky young ones.
6)my bitterness is actually a front, I vent here on the PC about them, I could careless when I work the gate about them. 7)And for the record also, CJA'S or flight attendants can only jumpseat if there in an extra seat at the jumpseat. If there is a plane leaving with 5 open seats and our pilots(omc) and flight attendants don't want to use write your owns to get the seat, then the OMC'S get all the 5 seats. They can only ride in an open jumpseat for flight attendants, is that a perk? Not really. But things will change for our wonderful pilots soon. Either they will take drastic pay cuts and change the work rules, or we will be in chap.7 and they get no paycheck. Only time will tell, so these perks are pretty much short lived. So if you think I am bitter? Who really cares what you think, if you were a CSR complaining to me then it might hit hard, but you are a pilot who thinks it is right.
have a good day.
Jc5280 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 530 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6026 times:
You are correct, it is "Observing Members of the Crew". But the agent does not decide where they get to sit. They sit in the best available seat after everyone else has boarded. There used to be a restriction that kept them out of F class internationally, but that is gone.
I am not bitter about it at all. I have the same "powers" as a gate agent in the computer, so we can look and see where we fall on the standby lists, what misconnecting customers there are (to know what flight we will get on) and the actual loads of the aircraft. The crews have very basic knowledge/access of the system.
I think UAL777contrail is upset because time and time again, you get the pilot/flight attendant who wants to get on the plane. Its full, so they decide to jumpseat, then they realize that they would have been able to get a F or C class seat on the flight so they want to change at the last minute, taking up the time of the already busy gate agents.
Clipper471 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 726 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5952 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
It was always my understanding that pilots DEADHEADED on flights they weren't working. When DEADHEADING the pilot either takes the jumpseat in the cockpit or a vacant cabin seat. I've never heard the term "jumpseater" used as much as in this thread.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3640 posts, RR: 29 Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5880 times:
UAL - you prove all my theories true about a jealous, embittered worker that has a grudge against other people. You make such broad judgements about people you don't even know and make claims that are simply untrue. I'm not going to argue with you - as it is futile. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brickwall. It really is too bad that you have such harsh feelings towards other people and I feel sorry for you. I wish you and your colleagues the best of luck in your future and I hope that UA pulls through. Is that a chip on your shoulder? Thought so.
Clipper - Deadheading is the term used for a crew member who is a passenger on a flight but is there as apart of their pattern/sequence/trip. A jumpseater doesn't necessarily mean pilot - it is anyone who is occupying the physical FA or pilot jumpseat or is riding onboard under the privildges of that seat. FAA inspector, dispatcher, flight attendant, intern, line check airman, mechanic etc...
Jj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5850 times:
I thought that pilot also deadheaded when he returned home..... for example he lives in Los angeles and flies LAX-NRT if he hasn't got to do the return flight for a certain reason, he flies as a passenger on NRT-LAX. isn't that deadheading too?
Ual777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5829 times:
I have once again proven my point, I had someone read the thread you wrote and the one I responded to and sure enough like a fish to the hook you responded like I had said. Your unoriginal response was not a surprise, for most pilots respond the very same way. Talking to you and the others who respond with the typical jealousy response is like talking to a monkey( not you) just the fact you all respond they way you have always seen or been told. You cant argue with me and yes it is futile, we are from two different worlds and sadly enough the pilots like yourself have put yourselves their.
to answer your question that a pilot couldn't do(abjubilee), a deadheader is some who is trying to get home or to a city they must work a trip in. When you deadhead you hold a positive space seat. That means you are like revenue. If you jumpseat you are a freeloader just trying to catch a ride for free.
let me give you an example.
a flight in SFO needs a f/o or the flight will cancel, they have a pilot who is about to land in DEN. They ask the first officer if he will cut a deal with them and fly this trip from SFO-DEN. He says sure if you will get me home tonight and my next trip you find someone to take my spot, and I get it off.
they say ok, and the f/o is off to SFO in a first class seat bumping revenue so that he gets to SFO to bring the other full plane home.
when you jumpseat? That is when you are to cheap to buy a tkt. If your domicile is ORD and you live in DEN, because you just love the mountains. Now they say that you need to live by your domicile but most pilots don't, because they are in hub cities and they don't like what their seniority can hold. So off to DIA they go, now their flight leaves ORD the next day but they need to make damn sure they get to ORD to make the flight or there is hell to pay. So they show up at the airport, stand in line and say " I want to omc" so we as gate agents will issue an omc card and that is when the freeloading begins. 15 open seats on a 757 and they ride the jumpseat. When the flight is ready to depart and the ground crew close the door, they move to an open first class seat or coach seat at no cost to them, while the flight attendant in her Sunday best is paying about $30.00 to go fist class DEN-ORD.
you see why some get pissed off at this? It is very trivial but hell it makes the day go by.
abjubilee, you get a cookie for pointing it out, you arent the first and you wont be the last.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3640 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5758 times:
Actually - I know very well what a deadhead is - and I believe I answered the question exactly the way that you have Ual. A DH crewmember is working, he/she may not be flying, be he/she is still on duty. To address the example at hand... if a pilot is based in LAX and flies to NRT - the pilot is on duty or "working" until he/she returns to their base. So physically at the controls to NRT and if not scheduled to be at the control back to NRT the company must return the crewmember to base. THis would be considered a deadhead and while not physically at the controls, is on duty, therefore is working. You really have a lot to learn too. Many scheduled trips INCLUDE deadheading to position crews. Crew members even deadhead to go to training events. The term commuting is used when one is going to or from work on their own time. The term deadheading is used when one is WORKING and that deadhead was scheduled.
The only reason why I bring up jealousy is the fact that you are so angry at the fact that pilots, flight attendants, dispatchers and the like have this privlidge. Wouldn't you use the perk if it was made available to you? I can travel in coach for free on my company as apart of my pass benefits - is that freeloading too? Yes, I put myself in the career that I am in - so have you.
Just to clarify for those who want to think outside of the UAL realm here - not all DH crewmembers fly in first or business. It varies by airline and I can assure you that when we deadhead it is always in coach. It is not required to live in domicile and that is a choice that crewmembers make - pilots or FAs. That is taking a huge risk commuting to work because the jumpseat and pass benefits are last priority. Every airline is different - so don't take all of these generalizations about other companies by our happy agent as fact.
Mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7427 posts, RR: 63 Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5738 times:
Actually, the above discussion, while between 2 members, reminds me of the MAN and WOMAN announcers in the beginning of the movie AIRPLANE, where they argue over the red and white zone parking areas.
Just kidding Seriously, though you addressing each other, this post was left as is b/c the users can benefit from the points being discussed and you are both attempting to be civil. IN the future I ask that you contact each other privately. Thanks. Godspeed, over and out.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
EssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5617 times:
On the original topic about the mechanics of jumseating, good input. I would add that the # of jumpseats installed in any a/c is purely a function of airline choice. There is no standard, and many times it's an issue b/t ALPA/APA, for ex and the airline.
NWA 757s have 1 jumpseat, CO's 757s have 2...there are a multitude more examples.
BTW - the number of times I've gotten UAL777's exact attitude from some $.02 agent is mind boggling. All YOU do is verify the id...the Captain makes the decision, and I promise you'll lose that battle every time if you want to force the issue...Bring it on!
Jc5280 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 530 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5444 times:
EssentialPowr says... From an INTernal perspective, the most important thing to an airline are the crews that FLY airplanes, and the mechanics that FIX airplanes. Agents like YOU are a dime a dozen.
Thats such a typical pilot thought....that the whole airline should revolve around them. Aren't the customers the most important thing? There is no most important employee group guys. Without one group, none of the others would last. It just so happens that ALPA and the mechanics' IAMm have been the biggest bully to UAL management. Lets just see what happens in the next few weeks. All the information I have gathered here this week in headquarters tells me it will be the mechanics and pilots that take the biggest hit...
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4105 posts, RR: 38 Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5421 times:
Note that he stated that the pilots AND the mechanics are the most important things to the airlines, and you should have read in between the lines that those come secondary to the customers.
Jumpseats [which at NW are known as XCM (extra crew member)], and they are the captain's final say. I have seen so many gate agents be complete and total pricks to me trying to get someplace and see the joy on their face sometimes when myself and my family get bumped. It's pretty sad...and completely rediculous.
Of course we could do what you do, but I don't want to. One of my students works the gates here, does the ticketing, does the bags, and marshalls the airplanes. You just ride the gate. He is one of the coolest guys out there, and I wish all of you could learn a lesson from here.
You'd fly free too if you could, right? Most pilots aren't very high rollers anyways. The captains and such you see and hate at UA have been in the game as many years as you have been alive, or longer.
EssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5410 times:
What do you think "internal" perspective means? CUStomers would be "external" if it helps...
"It just so happens that ALPA and the mechanics' IAMm have been the biggest bully to UAL management"
James Goodwin and the board of directors decide to buy another airline as opposed to just doing a codeshare, and start Avolar during the highest level of profitability in airline history. Both pospects end in disaster, and Goodwin takes home millions. Poor UAL management. That sounds like the quarterly bonuses CAL management gets for losing the least money % as compared to the other top hub and spoke carriers...
This industry follows a sine wave like any other - so here's the economics lesson for the day: where does any industry go after the peak occurs???