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Feds Announce Plan For Arming Pilots  
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79024,00.html






Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Actually I don't think this is a solution and efficient measure to fight the terrorist risk. Just a thought, so far, the terrorist had to find a way to get a weapon on board. When the pilots are armed, the weapon is already on board. So the terrorist can change his focus to find a way how to get in possesion of the gun.... This doesn't sound like a solution of the problem to me, the problem is just shifted.

User currently offlineN949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1756 times:

Hopefully the pilots will remember to leave behind their piece before they fly overseas, as most countries outside of the US has very strict gun laws. Otherwise, it could be a very very long "layover" indeed.

'949


User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

A fedex DC10. Mr C, a crew member jumpseating on the flt attacks the crew with a hammer. His objective? Crash the plane on FX MEM hub.
Luckily, the crew has been able to control the situation.
Now , replace hammer by gun. Mr C can have a gun, according to this new regulation, because he is a pilots
Hypothesis 1: He has a gun, not the otherspilots. He kills all his colleagues and crashes the plane.
Hypothesis2: Mr C and the pilots have guns. You start a gun battle in the air. Mr C may be killed. But same for the pilots . + the dammage to the plane + possible mid-air collision, because during the fight, the crew will not be able to concentrate on flying the machine and listening to ATC

The result ? The DC10 crashes.
Guns for pilots ? What an improvement for the safety !!!

Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineLaxflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

Without a doubt one of the dumbest ideas to come down the pike. Why don't we just arm every pax with a handgun? Makes about as much sense.

User currently offlineApathoid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

I knew the ALPA thugs would push this through eventually, but it is still one of the stupidest and most dangerous things imagineable. That ALPA propoganda piece at the beginning of this thread is the biggest load of crap the alpa boys have put out in a long time. Qualified to fly in NO WAY makes you qualified to defend. I shudder at the thought... God help us if one of them decides to play John Wayne...

User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

I posted this on "Guns 'n' Freighters" thread a couple of days ago:

H.R. 765, introduced February 13 by U.S. Rep. John Mica (R-FL), House Aviation Subcommittee Chairman would allow more than 10,000 cargo pilots to bear arms while in flight.

About FedEx 705:

Days prior to a scheduled disciplinary hearing, FedEx flight engineer Auburn Calloway skyjacked FedEx Flight 705 on April 7, 1994 with a hammer. Express 705 was a Douglas DC-10 operating from the cargo giant's super hub in Memphis to San Jose. David Sanders, 49-year-old pilot, copilot Jim Tucker, and FE Andy Peterson fought off the hijacker. The bloody crew landed the aircraft even though it was more than 20 tons over max gross landing weight.

Its widely accepted that Calloway planned to plow the DC-10 into FedEx's headquarters.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aric Thalman



The book about FedEx 705 by Dave Hirschman is "Hijacked: The Real Story of the Heroes of Flight 705" (Dell Publishing, October 1998)

Ironically, a doomed flight with the same number was the Northwest Boeing 720 that crashed in the Florida Everglades. Northwest 705 operating Miami-PDX was lost 40 years ago last week; February 12, 1963.

JR FlyingTexan


User currently offlineIllini_152 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

God help us if someone gains control of the cockpit. When that happens, have no doubt that that airliner will be shot down in short order.

Everybody on that airplane is considered expendable versus the greater good of those on the ground after 9/11. Now, imagine for a minute that the government tells you that if someone interfers with you doing your job, they are going to kill you. Would you not want EVERY oppertunity to save yourself and your passengers?

With this extreem, so what if 1 or 4 passengers get shot in the process? It's better than the whole plane being shot down. And don't for a minute think that you'll be able to overtake them. Unfortunatly in close-quarters hand to hand combat, training will trump numbers. If you have 3 or 5 well trained terrorists, I have no doubt they'd be able to hold off a rush of passengers. You can't exactly flank them in an airplane, or go at them more than one or two at a time.

Give the pilots a fighting chance at saving your sorry ass. And if any of you think that the aviation world is so precise that a moments in attention to the autopilot will cause the airplane to plummit from the sky or slam into another airliner really need to stop believing what you see in the movies and get out into the real world.



Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1670 times:

With this extreem, so what if 1 or 4 passengers get shot in the process?

If you were one of those passengers, I think you would feel differently.

A fluorescent, a crowbar, a hammer, or even a large bottle of booze are perfectly acceptable means of thwarting hijackers. Pilots are there to ensure the safety of their passengers. Turning an aircraft cabin into the gunfight at the OK corral is flat contrary to this principle. It amazes me how we Americans think the solution to every problem is a gun.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is just insane!

Charles, SJ




The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineApathoid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1661 times:

You say close quarters hand to hand combat is difficult yet you think shooting it out in a tube full of innocents is a better solution? Wow.

There are better solutions. The pilot is not qualified for this just because his ego says he is. I am very well qualified with handguns and I can tell you that in no way do I feel I would be capable of defending an airliner in a crisis situation. There are too many circumstances.

If you really don't care about passenger safety, as your 1 to 4 acceptable "collateral damage" statement would indicate, then you have your heroic crew don their O2 masks and dump the cabin. Sure, some people get ear and maybe sinus injuries out of the deal, but the hijackers go to sleep and then you can restrain them without any further risk.

I for one will not put my family on an airline who arms the pilots. If I don't know if they are armed or not, then I will just take the car. I know I am in the minority on this opinion, but I will stand behind it.

Arming pilots is dangerous and stupid.


User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Apathoid, you seem more like a pilot hater than someone really concerned over this issue. For the record, I'm an airline pilot who does not really support this idea. I'm also one of those ALPA thugs I guess since I pay dues like every other pilot at my company. The choice I can make is not to carry a gun. No one is going to force me to carry one. The pilots out there who want the guns are more than willing to take the training etc. and probably have military backgrounds already.

Now, if it meant I could avoid the T.S.A(Thousands, standing, around) then you bet I might be interested in going to gun school on my next recurrent checkride.



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1630 times:

Has anyone seen the documentary film Bowling for Columbine?

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1625 times:

No, but I really want to see it.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4626 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Isn't it the Air Marshalls job to lay the smackdown when the shit hits the fan?


Word
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Yea, but air marshalls aren't placed on very many flights.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineIllini_152 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

You say close quarters hand to hand combat is difficult yet you think shooting it out in a tube full of innocents is a better solution? Wow.

No, I think hand to hand combat with a determined and well trained inividual who is prepared to die is not a good scenario. The Bad Guy will win. I do think, however, that anyone with a little training is capable of putting an aimed round into a target 3' away filling a doorway. That is where the firearm will be used, do defend the cockpit when the Bad Guys breech the door (you DID see the video where it takes only 1 minute to breech the new "secure" door, right?)

There are better solutions. The pilot is not qualified for this just because his ego says he is. I am very well qualified with handguns and I can tell you that in no way do I feel I would be capable of defending an airliner in a crisis situation. There are too many circumstances.

No, he'll be qualified after he takes the manditory training classes. I too am quite capable with handguns, and I don't doubt my ability to hit a man sized target 2-4' away from me. If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't bother carrying.

The gun is there to protect the cockpit, not the airplane.

If you really don't care about passenger safety, as your 1 to 4 acceptable "collateral damage" statement would indicate, then you have your heroic crew don their O2 masks and dump the cabin. Sure, some people get ear and maybe sinus injuries out of the deal, but the hijackers go to sleep and then you can restrain them without any further risk.

How familiar are you with the current climate? If the Bad Guys get access to the cockpit, the WHOLE PLANE will be shot down. No ifs ands or buts. That is how it will work, why do you think they scramble the fighters at the leats provocation now? Against THAT possibiliy, yes, the remote chance of a handful of passenger casulties is regrettible, but far better than the whole plane being shot down (BTW, I doubt even ONE pax would get killed in the first place)

Lets see, we'll dump the cabin. OK lets assume the Bad Guys don't get an O2 mask that the pax will use. Let's also assume that we'll have to descend anyway, because more than a few minutes at airliner altitudes without O2 will result in brain damage, not just "falling asleep" we DON'T want to kill everyone, do we? And the young and elderly will be dropping long before the young, fit Bad Guys will.

And, let's not forget that the gun is a LAST resort once the cockpit door has been breeched. Dumping the cabin won't do any good once that door is open and the Bad Guys are in the cockpit fighting the crew anyway. Best you could hope for is the captian crashing during the emergency descent.

I for one will not put my family on an airline who arms the pilots. If I don't know if they are armed or not, then I will just take the car. I know I am in the minority on this opinion, but I will stand behind it.

I guess you wouldn't have been flying much in the past then. You DO know that airline pilots were armed until the mid 1970's, right? And that there were less stringent provisions in part 121 to arm pilots until 9/13/01, right? Those regulations were removed AFTER 9/11 by congress. All this is is fixing that mistake.

--
Mike



Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
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