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Lufthansa To Start Montreal Service This Summer  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6864 times:

I have just received word from the CEO of the ADM that Lufthansa has a plan to serve Montreal for summer 2003.

The details are to be arranged in short order, and they involve the involment of Lufthansa on a 2nd frequency between Montreal and Frankfurt. This is again my hunch, but it could also be Montreal-Munich....

Summer 2003 is an unprecedented summer for Montreal. If Lufthansa does commence Montreal service, Lufthansa will join SATA, Aeris, United Express, Skyservice, and WestJet as new entries to Montreal.. not to mention expanded frequencies by Air France to Paris (3rd flight) and Austrian going 5 weekly to Montreal....

Mark

93 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6795 times:

That would be great, I know that the YYZ flight is always pretty well full, my buddy's ex-gf works for LH and said thats its a busy flight and a strong route.

Mark, do you think you will be seeing an A330?

Grant



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6788 times:

Grant,

No clue yet.. The sorting you should be done shortly I guess..

Mark


User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1774 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6758 times:

Absolutley great news, I can't wait t'ill I see the LH livery flying over my house, and at the tarmac at YUL!

User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6725 times:

This proves that airports in the northeastern part of North America are loaded to the max and it becomes more and more apparent to me that YUL is starting to be seen as an alternative.

I can only dream of all the airlines that would fly in Montreal, if we had a real airport  Pissed



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineKM732 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 232 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6718 times:

Hi!

I also heard that LH will start MUC-YUL in summer 2003! This service is also said to be operated by AC from winter 2003. That would be nice for us at MUC...  Smile

Stefan


User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1774 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6717 times:

Don't worry, Dorval will become a real airport once the expansion is done.


User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6716 times:

You have a great airport.....YMX....... HA HA HA HA sorry i couldn't resist!

Grant



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6701 times:

I was in YMx yesterday..... its not a very good airport!

Mark


User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6686 times:

When used, YMX always received good marks from pax, much much more than YUL ever got. It's not a perfect airport, but invest the 800 million$ ADM is investing at YUL (which was supposed to be 140 million$ back in 1997  Nuts . I think that differential is a perfect testimony to ADM's credibility: none), and you'll have a perfectly decent airport, with an almost limitless capacity to expand. Sorry, could not resist  Big grin .


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineSafeFlyer From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6659 times:

Ob001, you're right.

Mark: I was in YMx yesterday..... its not a very good airport!

Well' it's way better than the current Dorval! Let's wait "till the expansion is completed.
BTW, YOW T-New inauguration is early, it will not open in 2004 but in 2003 now Big grin I'm glad we will now have a world-class airport.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6651 times:

QB001,

Did you not know that transforming an inefficient airport like YMX to the standards of an airport that handles domestic/transborder/international traffic will cost billions.

YMX has 5 gates, and a bunch of stnads that can be reached by bus... waste of time..

Transforming YMX into the Montreal standards involve one more runway, a new AC HQ/maintenance, and a terminal that is built for the segregation in traffic; in other words everything that Mirabel is not.

ADM's credibility has increased with mr.Cherry at power. Look at all the new airlines and frequencies. Have you seen the type of faciltiies we will get?

147 million bucks and you get a little finger to replace the aeroquay, 716 million and you get an airport that can build to the needs of its increasing users, and give air Canada to space to build an efficient "mini-hub"...

But in quebec, we've made a point of ignoring the facts... hecne the YMX/YUL debate.

Mark


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6649 times:

YMX is only better than YUL if you are taking an international flight.... point final..

Mark


User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6633 times:

FLYYUL,

Find me an expert who says YUL has better potential than YMX... Even ADM admits that they'll have to turn to YMX 20 to 25 years from now. So why invest 800 millions$ at YUL now, instead of doing it at YMX and make it the airport it was supposed to be in the first place. It's a total waste of money (my and your money BTW).

YMX has room to add 4 (4 !!!) more runways, YUL has none. YMX has room to add between 4 to 6 terminals, YUL has none, which is why the terminal will look like a spaghetti bowl (concourses running everywhere) once the works are completed. I wonder who is ignoring the facts here...



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineAS_GSC From United States of America, joined Sep 2002, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6620 times:

ADM's credibility has increased with mr.Cherry at power.

I know it's weird, but the first thing I thought of after I read this was, "Wow! Don Cherry (Hockey Night in Canada) is the ADM manager!"

Cheers!
AS_GSC


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6616 times:

Certainly not I..

Firstly, I am in close contact with the CEO of the ADM, and they have plan to increase airport capacity to 25 million... nobody is going to YMX anytime soon.

Remember that LHR handles 60 million on essentially 2 runways, in a space that is less larger than Dorval Airport....

I know who thinks YUL is better than YMX; Air Canada, Lufthansa, Air France, United, and all others that have been waiting for better facilities at YUL.

Be certain, the CEO of the ADM Mr.James Cherry is one smart cookie, and it shows...... go to the Montreal Airports website (http://132.216.13.9/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl) and have highlighted the turn-around that the ADM has made in 2 years only.

The facts speak for themselves, Montreal alone this year will accomodate more "new-flights" than Toronto will based on what we see so far. This is quite an accomplishment......

Mark


User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6601 times:

FLYYUL,

Sorry to say this, but you are making facts. The only airlines that really favored YUL over YMX is AC: of course, YUL was no match to their YYZ hub. YMX, on the other hand, would have been a serious threat...

AF strongly opposed the transfer from YMX to YUL. Other airlines don't really care; why would they?

As for the comparison with LHR, it is totally irrelevant, almost a counter-argument if you favor YUL over YMX. I do not want to expand on that, because it involves too many facts. But one thing I can say is this: the day Montreal will have 5 airports like London has (Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, Gatwick and City), then we'll be in a position to compare apples with bananas.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6590 times:

QB001,

We are getting way off-topic... but it doesnt matter Big grin

AF at first opposed the move, but are glad with it today let me tell you. They have a 20% connecting rate, and will expand to 3 daily. If they werent happy, they wouldnt expand and build on the connections with DL. In fact, AF is seeking big-time interline agreements with WJ/SG etc for connections into YUL.

YMX would never have been a serious threat because AC makes mnuch of its money in YUL on the short-hops to YYZ/LGA/EWR/BOS/PHL. A 45minute drive to YMX would negate the advantages that are YUL. The study that I am speaking of, is that AC would lose a ton of business to trains/cars/buses with the YMX consolidation. Then they said, build a high-speed train, and extend the 13, but between you and I WE ALREADY pay the highest taxes in the G8, so I am not willing to pay even more for something we can already do at Dorval thank you very much. AC has its HQ (which employees 4,000) and its maintenance hub (which employs over 5,000) at Dorval. What are you gonna tell AC, move all your 10,000 employees to YMX? They would give you the finger and joined the "401 movement" if you know what I am speaking about...

Remember a solution was made to stop the exodus of the Lufthansa's, Alitalia's, and LOT's to Toronto, and that solution was Dorval. Austrian, Lufthansa, Air France 3rd flight, KLM, Swissair/Sabena (bankrupt), Air Canada, United, Continental, and others have expanded service. Remember Canada 3000 making the headlines in the business section of the gazette saying "Dorval or nothing".... Canada 3000 wanted to fly YULLAX, YULLAS, and a whole bunch of other routes but were not able to due to YMX. Remember Royal saying the same? If you dont remember, I have all the articles archived....

Comparing YUL vs LHR is not comparing apples vs oranges one bit. LHR just shows you what you can do with limited space, and 2 runways. YUL can do the same until we are six feet under.

Starting in 37 days, there is a new era opening. The new TB finger which I have visited several times, will definitely open your eyes about the prospects of YUL. The TB essentially triples the amount of existing bridges/and gates on the current TB pier at YUL. THe new international will add 14 over the current 9. Each finger could be expanded to handle 40 gates combined.

The capacity at Dorval goes from 8 million to 15 million to 25 million in no time.... your just not willing to wait and see...

Mr.Cherry said "Build it and they will come"... ive seen quite a few coming, and there are more on hold waiiting to see for themselves.

Mark



User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

FLYYUL,

I still don't agree with you. I think, for the most part, that you are factually wrong.

And since we are off topic, let's put an end to that debate, which is of little interest to almost everyone here.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 460 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6553 times:

YMX was a good idea that ended up being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Life is full of missed opportunities. You can either get hung up and eternally bitch about them (YMX) or cut your losses, adapt to new realities and move on (YUL).

The residents of the Mirabel region fought like hell to keep it from being built for years while it was being built. Now they fight to keep it from closing.I don't get it.

No matter what, at least the ADM (and ultimately the YUL airline passengers)will save much of the $20 million in annual YMX operating losses now that it is going to cargo only. That's 55,000 reasons per day, in perpetuity, why things had to change once and for all.

I wish people could just accept that a decision had to be made. It's done.It's time to make the best of it.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6540 times:

Let's agree to disagree QB 001..

I do think the future of Montreal airports is brighter than ever.

Mark


User currently offlineA350-200 From France, joined Oct 2000, 150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

FlyYul,
I really liked the way you back you statements:
"I'm in close contact with ADM CEO"
Just found it funny. (no offence)


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6417 times:

Ok I dont see the humour in it.... but it was put in there to valide the thread I have created.

Mark


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6404 times:

Montreal alone this year will accomodate more "new-flights" than Toronto will based on what we see so far.

Nonsense. YYZ handles about 3x as many pax as YUL. If you note the incremental YYZ flights, they're likely far larger than the new YUL flights. YYZ'ers just don't self-gloss about it.

The capacity at Dorval goes from 8 million to 15 million to 25 million in no time.... your just not willing to wait and see...

YUL handles about 10M pax.....the same number handled in 1975. I don't see YUL growing to 15M anytime soon. The Conference Board of Canada predicts that the YUL economy will grow the slowest of Canada's 10 largest cities....on top of an already low PCI....this is not a recipe for traffic growth.

I do think the future of Montreal airports is brighter than ever.

Compared to what? YUL has dropped from 1st to 3rd busiest airport in Canada. YYC will likely pass it this decade. The economic forecast alone for YUL suggests minimal traffic growth.

FlyYul,
I really liked the way you back you statements:
"I'm in close contact with ADM CEO"


Mark says the same thing about Robert Milton frequently.












Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6400 times:

Man, I wish YYC would get some big European airlines.

All we get are British charters that have a new name every year, lol.

Oh well, I guess there's not a market yet.


Kris
YYC  Smokin cool



Word
25 Yyz717 : Well, YYC has had BA, KL, LH sked service in the past. The way the YYC economy and population is growing....YYC is well on its way to eclipsing YUL as
26 FLYYUL : Ok Neil... Do you want to start adding up the new frequencies from both Montreal and Toronto for 2003 so far? And you took me way out-of context by sa
27 FLYYUL : "The way the YYC economy and population is growing....YYC is well on its way to eclipsing YUL as the 3rd busiest airport later this decade. " -HAHAHA
28 Yyz717 : Mark, I do respect your knowledge...but when you start to self-gloss about YUL, I will challenge you on it. Attached is the economic forecast statemen
29 Post contains images VonRichtofen : Wow 4.9% predicted growth for YYC for this year. That means even more people moving here and even more traffic *groan* Ah well, all the good for the e
30 FLYYUL : Again Neil, For the last 3 years, we were at the top in GDP growth. Remember that it is the short-term past, present, and very short-term future that
31 Noise : Thunder Bay's economy is expected to grow? Any way, Montreal was predicted to have an avergae GDP growth for 2002, and look what happened...........th
32 ChrisNH : the CEO of the ADM Mr.James Cherry is one smart cookie, and it shows...... go to the Montreal Airports website (http://132.216.13.9/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl) H
33 Post contains links Noise : That's not the Airport Authority's URL, it's http://www.admtl.com
34 Post contains images FLYYUL : LOL good job ChrisNH...
35 Munich : The rumours grow stronger, that the new LH-flight will be MUC-YUL. Possibly it will be at the opening of the new terminal 2 in munich in the end of Ju
36 Noise : If the flight is to MUC, this will hurt Austrian!
37 Skywatcher : If the Federal government doesn't cough-up hundreds of millions of taxpayer money to Ford & Chrysler for new Ontario car plants I doubt that the south
38 FLYYUL : .... Munich, What speculation are you basing your opinion on? I;d like to hear more if possible. YULMUC would be one great route, and would be at the
39 Post contains images Captaingomes : Kris, you better use all that accumulated wealth from real estate and lower taxes to buy more Dragon-wings models. I really think the biggest news for
40 UN_B732 : A VERY COOL SUMMER FOR YUL! Maybe those Expansion Fees I mean Improvement Fees are starting to pay off, KLM 777s are starting soon. And Transaero migh
41 FLYYUL : This summer will be sick.. Sata, Aeris, 3rd Air France (777, 744, 343 combo), more Austrian, Lufthansa, Egyptair, RAM daily... Westjet/United Mark
42 Munich : @ FLYYUL This information is from a German aviatic website, written by a employee from munich-airport. But this guy had the information also only hear
43 Munich : @FLYYUL here is the link, you find the posts under "MUC Sommer News:". The site is in german language, but if you understand a little German, you can
44 Delta-flyer : When I was a kid growing up in Montreal in the 60's, we had daily LH flights from Frankfurt operated by B707 equipment. We also had Sabena, Swissair,
45 Yyz717 : I think the opening of YMX was partly responsible for the demise of Montreal as a gateway. The biggest cause of the economic decline of YUL was the el
46 Donder10 : Another reason for the loss of intl traffic at Montreal:longer-ranged planes and the shift in airline operational procedures. Plus,the fact that Montr
47 Post contains images C172Akula : I have to say I love this...these threads usually invovling Montreal always turn out the same First it is a new announcement on a route or airline, th
48 JU101 : As many of you are discussing future expansion of Dorval, and the exceptional potential it may have, i think that some have been ignorant of certain d
49 Noise : JU101, I agree with most of your points. YOW is expanding rather rapidly and does pose a small threat to YUL's growth, but their expansion is small co
50 FLYYUL : I cannot believe the level of bullsh*t this thread has led up to... JU101, if you dont have the facts, dont speak of something you are not aware of. Y
51 JU101 : The figures i borrowed from Qb001, and if they are not completely true then i do apologize. Nevertheless, i find it ridiculous that Ottawa is not cons
52 FLYYUL : JU101, Ottawa is a city of 1 million people. Yes perhaps a frequency here and there to LHR/CDG, but other than that, where else in North America do yo
53 Yyz717 : where else in North America do you have a city of 1.1 million people with trans-atlantics? Plenty. YYC, YEG, YHZ, YYT, MEM, CVG, SAN. It seems inadver
54 LH423 : I think what FLYYUL should have said was how many cities of 1 million people that aren't hubs have trans-Atlantic service. If you phrase it like that
55 Post contains links Qb001 : JU101, FLYYUL is right, you simply add fuel to fire. FLYYUL, With your extremely long answer, you're doing pretty much the same... As for the figures
56 MAH4546 : where else in North America do you have a city of 1.1 million people with trans-atlantics? Plenty. YYC, YEG, YHZ, YYT, MEM, CVG, SAN. CVG is about 2,3
57 BA : SAN actually has 3 million.[Edited 2003-02-24 03:22:06]
58 Noise : Qb001, 1997???!!! 185 mill???!!! LMAO, oh man, that's from the 1st expansion! Back when all the did was renovations and etc. That was a long time ago.
59 Noise : SAN is way over 1 million, so is CVG! YHZ has atlantic service.....through YYT. YYT has atlantic service, with the help of YHZ. YEG no longer has Atla
60 Yyz717 : As a very general rule though, you can argue that once a metro area reaches 1M in population, it can become a candidates for limited TA service. FAI,
61 Post contains images Yow : I think the YUL crew here failed to point out that YUL is not the only place Ottawans connect from internationally. Just because there are only 15-20
62 Yyz717 : Ottawa has the highest mean income of any city in the country. Actually YYC PCI is higher than YOW, but the YOW PCI is still high. Of course YOW will
63 Qb001 : As sad as I feel to admit it, I do believe that YOW will soon be in position to compete with YUL. From what I've read and heard, the people running YO
64 Yow : Yes true Neil, YYC has the highest PCI with YOW being a couple hundred bucks behind and YYZ a tiny bit less. YOW has the highest mean income, which is
65 Yyz717 : Also though Mark is also right about Montreal. Their economy is fairing much better than 5-7 years ago and the city looks a lot, lot better now than i
66 YHU : Qb001 said: " As for the figures I've used, my memory failed me a little. According to ADM's original estimate of 1997, trying to make YUL / CYUL), Ca
67 VonRichtofen : YUL kicking YYC's ass? ROTFLMAO How much of YUL's "success" was paid for by other provinces and favouritism from the federal government? If YUL is suc
68 Yyz717 : Well said vonRichtofen. Actually, the "catchment" population for YUL is essentially the entire population of Quebec since YQB handles so little traffi
69 YHU : My simple stand point is....Montreal is getting better. We're no Toronto, and yes, Calgary is the second economic powerhouse in Canada. But it seems t
70 Yyz717 : Well said Dave. I think you'll find that the YYZ vs YUL chats usually start when someone (such as me, but not exclusively) choose to challenge some ex
71 YHU : I am very much against self-glossing. As you clearly say, any city that deserves to, also doesn't have to. Because the stats speak for themselves. Dor
72 Post contains images JU101 : Yow, You hit my point right on Just to recap. There are a few strategic factors that should support the expansion of transatlantic flights from Ottawa
73 FLYYUL : VonRichtofen, Calgary is not no.2 in head offices, its far behind montreal... the statistic you mentionned was YYC playing its numbers. Calgary showed
74 FLYYUL : Ok QB 001, I added fuel to the fire... I was the one that didnt know what he was talking about right? Lets go through this step by step.. 1997.. YMX t
75 Yyz717 : Neil, does it kill you inside to know that WestJet/United and Lufthansa are coming to town? Eat your crow.. No, I find it mildly amusing. Westjet adds
76 FLYYUL : "(http://radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/dossiers/mirabel-dorval/ " -Last update was May 1999.... that is quite a while ago... The goal of the transfer to Y
77 FLYYUL : Neil, At the end of the day, you will eat your crow.. Your bold predictions of LH/UA/WJ never to come to YUL, are simply putting you in your place. "m
78 Yyz717 : Ill tell you whats impressive, today AC874 YULFRA was once again overbooked (booked at 340 out of 296). 114 of those pax were connections from all ove
79 FLYYUL : Impressive... because as a hub, Montreal's network is mayve 1/4 of Toronto's size... Anyway the point of the stat was to show how consolidation at YUL
80 AC320 : For the love of G-d, can't we ever have a discussion about YUL or YYZ that doesn't end up as the Canadian Civil War? Yes, Toronto is the nation's larg
81 FLYYUL : Anyway this thread has gone to crap... It started off with no intention of it being this way, but some people just cant resist. I encourage those who
82 Post contains images VonRichtofen : "Some of Canada's largest companies are based outside Montreal" Well then if they're OUTSIDE Montreal than they're not IN Montreal are they? They were
83 SailorOrion : Ok guys, I have heard enough of your childish discussion, can we please get back to the topic now. Its not amusing anymore. The question that remains
84 Yyz717 : It's possible that LH might take-over the single daily YUL-FRA route from AC. Given that AC & LH are partners, AC may wish to place the 74E currently
85 Johnnybgoode : i highly doubt that LH would ever take over AC´s YUL-FRA. the thing why AC is operating a 74E on that route is because they need a combi aircraft to
86 Aviationman : "It's possible that LH might take-over the single daily YUL-FRA route from AC" And now, how do we explain the double daily YUL-FRA during summer month
87 FLYYUL : Here is the evidence for MUC and FRA. MUC: -Lufthansa wanted to start YULMUC service before 09/11 -FRA already served with Lufthansa/Air Canada -Air C
88 Post contains images FLYYUL : Marcel, Stop self-glossing Mark
89 Aviationman : I can't help it!!!!!
90 Yyz717 : how do we explain the double daily YUL-FRA during summer months? A money loser? Probably. Most AC routes lose money. The addl summer frequency suggest
91 FLYYUL : *Mark ignores Neil's continuous blabbing* Does anybody usually know when summer schedules are finalized (isnt there an IATA deadline)... I was thinkin
92 Aviationman : So yyz717, are you saying that compared to YUL-FRA daily service year round + the additional summer YUL-FRA second daily....the following are money lo
93 Yyz717 : YYZ to ZRH, MAN, GLA,AMS. Yes, I would bet they are money losers. Let's remember that AC is BARELY an on-going financial concern...their business mode
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