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Hawaiian's Choice For 767  
User currently offlineTranStar From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 530 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2417 times:
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I was wondering why Hawaiian chose the 767-300ER as a replacement aircraft for its DC-10s. They hold far less than the DC-10s and considerable less first class seats. Why didn't they go for a bigger aircraft, like the 767-400ER?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9633 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2396 times:
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on a seperate, but similiar note, I was told that the Hawaiian reps who agreed to purchase the ex-LTU airframes were fired after an internal investigation by the company. They were wined, dined, and sexed into buying those tired used-up airframes.

Any truth to this?


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

probably wanted to trim capacity... same reason NW replaced DC10s with 757s

User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3013 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Much as I loathe Airbus, the A332 probably would have been a better option. For both capacity and cargo reasons.

HA lost some of their charter business because of the small capacity of the 763 in comparison to the DC-10.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16283 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Since the D10's were used, their capacity was leased "cheaply" from AA. Hence, they might have been larger than required. It's likely that the D10 was the only aircraft available to replace their L10's at the time.

Now that the time has come to replace the D10, an aircraft more in line with capacity demands was chosen. IMHO.

Neil

PS. The 763 is not that much less capacity than the D10 anyway.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1608 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

I also heard that it had to do with increased frequencies to the west coast (didn't LAX get one more flight a day?) and also new service to the west coast, like SMF.




"FLY DELTA JETS"
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

on a seperate, but similiar note, I was told that the Hawaiian reps who agreed to purchase the ex-LTU airframes were fired after an internal investigation by the company. They were wined, dined, and sexed into buying those tired used-up airframes.

Any truth to this?


I wouldn't doubt it. They had no commonality with Hawaiian's other jets (exit-wise)

Now Hawaiian has 767s with 3 different types of exits

N580HA-N582HA = 8 door exits
N583HA-N586HA = 6 door exits, 2 window exits
N587HA-N593HA = 4 door exits, 4 window exits


User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2196 times:
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There are several reasons Hawaiian chose the 767. These are some, but not all:

1. The DC-10's are old, average age of about 23 years, meaning increased maintenance requirements.
2. Better efficency than the DC-10 and lowest twin aisle operating costs.
3. Range would allow expansion past the West Coast when the time comes (Most HA DC-10 were the 10 series).
4. The reduced capacity would better match year round demand rather than only peak demand.
5. Improved efficency and lower capacity would improve yields in a low yield market.
6. Allowed HA to increase non-stop flights from OGG.
7. AA wants to get out of DC-10 maintenance.
8. The first 3 (580-82) were available from Ansett Worldwide at a good lease rate at the time since they had no customer for them.

HA got the ex-LTU's mainly because they were available quickly and again, rather cheap at the time from ILFC. The leases for most of the DC-10's were going to expire in 2002 and HA needed 767's to replace them. The first 767, 580, arrived in Oct 2001 while to first of last 9, 587, arrived in Sept 2002, almost a year apart.

Were they wined and dined? Of course, it is a common occurance in every industry. The mistake to lease the planes only came about after the planes were overhauled and other problems were found.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16283 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

The mistake to lease the planes only came about after the planes were overhauled and other problems were found.

What problems? Things that LTU or the lessor did not own up to but should have?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2052 times:
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The overhauls for the ex-LTU's all took longer than originally planned partly because of extra things found during the overhaul. I don't exactly remember what it was, but I think it was because corrosion was found during the overhaul. Then there are all the mechanicals these planes have had.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16283 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

Thanks Ha763.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2038 times:

I wouldn't doubt it. They had no commonality with Hawaiian's other jets (exit-wise)

Now Hawaiian has 767s with 3 different types of exits

N580HA-N582HA = 8 door exits
N583HA-N586HA = 6 door exits, 2 window exits
N587HA-N593HA = 4 door exits, 4 window exits


Do you really think exit configuration differences would cause someone to get fired? When I walk into the planes, unless I look at the ID plate on the instrument panel, it's hard to tell the difference between any of our planes (age related effects aside, like chipped paint). The LTU's are old compared to our other brand new airframes, but once the maintenance issues were solved, they're working fine in our fleet.

HA lost some of their charter business because of the small capacity of the 763 in comparison to the DC-10.

And we're glad to be rid of it. That kind of charter business was not a big money maker for us. It's much better for us to be able to sell our own seats to LAS, and not have to pay a middle-man to book the passengers for us. Many of the people are staying with us because of the frequent-flyer miles they piled up on previous charters. The new HNL-LAS charter flying is being done by Omni Air, in a DC-10 with 380(!?!?!?) seats. Imagine six hours in that sardine can!

The rest of the questions Ha763 answered admiriably. Overall, the new planes give us flexibility and cost savings we just couldn't get with the DC-10's, or with the Airbus either.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

I used to like Boeing ,and I prefer Airbus now adays , A332 would have been a better choice or maybe B777 . Ohh well , I guess 767s are doing well for HA .


Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1996 times:
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Also forgot to say that the A332 would be overkill for in terms of capacity and range.

Regarding the lost charter, my Aunt recently flew on a Vac Hi charter on Omni. Omni is offering 355 seats in a 3 class service: First, Premium, and Economy. However, Economy is 10 across. I'm not sure about Premium, but it just says that it offers leather seats and extra legroom, might still be 10 across. Compared to HA's DC-10's, very uncomfortable in coach.


User currently offlineTranStar From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1918 times:
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One of y'all mentioned greater range...Is Hawaiian considering an east coast destination? I would think Baltimore/Washington would be a great entry point there.

User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1905 times:

I used to like Boeing ,and I prefer Airbus now adays , A332 would have been a better choice or maybe B777

Oh here it is, this guy likes Airbus, so obviously the A332 would have been a better choice. Bet HA are kicking themselves.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

The 777 would have massively overkill.

The 332 would have been a just fine choice, but not necessarily a better one. The 763 does everything Hawaiian needs it to, and if they need a bigger plane they can get a 764. If they had gotten the 332 and needed a smaller plane they would have been SOL.

The 763can make the far reaches of the East coast, carries plenty of pax, and is a low cost plane to acquire and operate.

Does HA carry much cargo?

N


User currently offlineAmericanF100 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

I agree with the capacity cut...just like with NWA and the 753...there isn't nearly as high demands in the airline industry as there used to be  Sad

Matt~


User currently offlineHA_DC9 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 653 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1838 times:

For flights to Hawaii, the 767/757 seems to be a good aircraft to use. HA uses the 763, CO uses their 764s, UA uses their 752s/763s/772s, DL uses their 764s, AA uses their 752s/763s and even ATA uses their new 753s. Although it would have been nice to see a 772 in HA colors, it is too much of an aircraft for too high a price for an airline like HA. Hawaii is a very low yield market, the costs of using 772s would probably kill HA. The 767 fits HA's needs very nicely.

User currently offlineTranStar From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1803 times:
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Could Hawaiian make profits flying routes to the East Coast?

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